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The Big Apple needs a worm like Fielding!
This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily revisits a favorite television comedy from her Gen X childhood: Night Court. Not only did the Guy sisters watch this workplace comedy in syndication in the afternoons starting in elementary school (despite the fact that much of the humor was very much not meant for children), but it was also part of the Must See TV lineup on Thursday nights that Tracie and Emily watched with their parents.
Showrunner Reinhold Weege (and yes, that's really his name) created a true laugh-a-minute comedy that also offered well-meaning storytelling that was surprisingly progressive about trans acceptance, mental health, and racial equality. But the treatment of women in the show, especially how John Larroquette's Dan Fielding constantly hit on every woman indiscriminately and Markie Post's Christine Sullivan in particular, feels much slimier now than the writers intended. While Fielding was always the butt of the joke and made to pay for his sleazy ways, Night Court is a pop culture reflection of the belief that unwanted male attention was the price of being a woman. The fact that Larroquette still managed to make Dan likable is a testament to his acting skills and the strength of the ensemble cast, headed by Harry Anderson.
Throw on your headphones and take a listen...and we'll consider the case of The People vs. The Podcast Listener dismissed!
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deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, comedy, gen x childhood, storytelling, sitcom, television, night court, john larroquette, markie post, harry anderson, women, mental health, pop culture, gen x nostalgia, cultural commentary, society, new york city, criminal justice, slapstick, 1980s pop culture
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Uh part of the reason why it endured as long as
it did was because it was likecomforting because you had all
these kooky characters who youloved, like they were all very
lovable, even the sleaze bag.
And it was comforting because italways ends well.
Like, I mean, that's whatsitcoms do.
And it's very funny.
(00:20):
It's a laugh a minute.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
I'm Emily Guy Birken, and this is Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1980s era sitcom Night Courtwith my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, Trace, I know youknow this show.
(01:03):
We used to watch it togetherafter school.
Yeah.
What's in your head about NightCourt?
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
I love this show so much.
So I don't remember a singlestoryline, but I remember the
characters pretty well.
So Harry, the judge, who's sortof sort of the protagonist,
who's like a super young andlike goofy juggler, and like got
the gig because they needed anew judge.
And so they were like going downthe line of making phone calls,
(01:28):
and he was the only one thatanswered the phone.
And the two primary lawyers inthe court, the public defender
and the prosecutor, and Ihonestly don't remember which
was which, but one was DanFielding, played by John
Larriquette, who was like alovable rogue that when I think
back on it with today's eyes,I'm like, ooh, maybe not so
(01:51):
lovable.
And then the female lawyer,whose name you had to remind me
of, which is funny because Iremember everybody else's names,
but her name was Christine.
I remember that she was blonde,and there was some sexual
tension between her and Harry,the judge.
And the two bailiffs who I alsoloved, Roz, who was like a short
(02:13):
black woman who was snarky, andI thought she was hilarious.
And Bull, the tall white dudewith a shaved head who wasn't
super bright, but the two ofthem had like an interesting
like relationship where theycared about each other, but Raz
was always like making fun ofBull and stuff.
(02:34):
And I remember there's at leastone episode with a puppet with a
bull, a bull puppet that wasvery funny.
And I don't know if you knowthis, but my boyfriend before I
got married, Art, he shaved hishead at one point while we were
together and he picked me up,and I didn't know his head had
been shaved.
And like he picked me up, and Igot in the car and I was like,
oh my God, you look like Bull.
(02:58):
And I was like simultaneouslydelighted and a little icked out
that he looked like Bull fromthat court.
So I don't remember a singlestoryline, but those characters
are still very real and vibrantin my head.
And like specific moments, likehow Harry got the job and like
(03:20):
Bull with his puppet.
So like I have specific moments,but I don't have any storylines.
So anyway, that's the furniturein my mind.
It's actually people.
But tell me, um, why are wetalking about Night Court today?
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
So I don't remember what reminded me of it recently,
but this was a show that Ireally, really liked.
And it was in syndication whenwe were in like elementary,
middle, high school.
It actually ran from 1984 to1992.
So it was still going.
Like it was still airing newepisodes when I remember
(03:53):
watching it after school.
I'd get home from school and I'dmake myself a snack and I'd
watch like two night courtreruns back to back.
And then apparently onThursdays, I'd also watch a new
episode because it was my C TVon Thursday.
And I remember just really,really liking it.
There are certain jokes thathave become part of my lexicon.
(04:16):
Oh, oh, uh-huh.
So if someone asks me why is thesky blue, I say because if we're
green, we wouldn't know when tostop mowing.
Because that's a nightcourtjoke.
That's a nightcourt joke.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
I did not know that was a nightcourt joke.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
There was a cold open where they're talking about
like there's hurricane-levelwinds of like 80 miles an hour,
and then Dan comes in to Harry'schambers and his underwear is
around his neck, and he's likepulling at it, going, guaranteed
not to ride up.
(04:54):
So like things like that are inmy head.
There's another one wherethere's some sort of power
outage or something like that,and there was a court case
involving like a whole passel ofwomen who are very, very
pregnant, and all of them gointo labor at once.
And so, like, many, they're alllike giving birth, and like
(05:15):
everyone's trying to help them.
And in the cafeteria, bull ishelping one woman give birth and
the baby is breech.
The bull's helping, and he'slike, Would you look at the grin
on that baby's face?
SPEAKER_03 (05:28):
Because it's he's looking at Toshi.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
He's looking at Tatoshi.
So there are things that arejust in my head about this show
and always have been.
But I also, as I have becomemore aware of my internalized
homophobia and internalizedtransphobia, I recognize that a
(05:54):
lot of it was built on watchingthis show.
This specific show, really.
Just because there are somethings I remember some jokes in
this show, although this showwas also in a lot of ways very
progressive.
And like it kind of gave withone hand and took away with the
other, and it was very wellintentioned.
(06:18):
It was clearly very wellintentioned.
And the people involved, Ithink, really were trying their
best.
But this was the toxic waters weswam in in the 80s.
Yeah.
Because you've remarked beforethat I have a really good memory
for these kinds of stories.
(06:39):
Some of this is just, I justremember some of the things, and
they stuck with me.
And then once I knew better, Ilooked back on them and was
like, ew.
But what also stuck with me werethe things that were well
intentioned and worked outnicely, and they did a lovely
(07:01):
job of.
I had a little crush on HarryAnderson.
Me too.
I liked him and Marky Post, whoplayed Christine.
And then I like workplacecomedies.
I find them very satisfying.
And then the idea, the setup ofthis show is very intelligent in
that because it's set up asnight court, so it's already
(07:24):
like New York in the 80s wasalready the idea, was this place
was kind of a mess.
Yeah.
And then you're talking aboutwho's coming before the judge at
night.
It's gonna be the kooks.
(07:45):
So you've got this rotating castof extras coming through.
It's the weird cases.
So like that is just reallygreat fertile soil for comedy to
bring in these rotating casts ofcharacters that you can have the
regulars play off of, and thenyou have the regular characters,
(08:05):
you've got kind of archetypeswith each of them that you can
then have them like play off theweirdos that are coming through.
It just seems like a dream of awriting job.
And so there I think there's areason why I enjoyed it.
We enjoyed it as much as we did.
And there are a lot of peoplewho say it was one of the best
(08:26):
sitcoms of the 80s.
And I'll get into that in a bit.
So you did a pretty good job ofremembering the characters.
There's a little bit more Iwanna I wanna kind of get into.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Do you want to give me some postcards first?
I mean, you have a little bitalready, but do you have any
additional postcards from thedestination that you want to
share before we do that?
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
Yeah, so there's some things that I'm gonna talk
about.
I'm gonna talk about like thehumor.
So there's a lot of differenttypes of humor in it.
There's slapstick and physicalcomedy.
Harry Anderson was hired becausehe was a magician and did
physical comedy.
Reinhold Wiege, who was theshowrunner, specifically saw him
on Saturday Night Live andwanted him for that.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
I remember, I do remember one episode where we
learned Dan's actual like realname, his legal name is
Reinhold.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Yes.
Yes.
And apparently Weige would usethe names of his friends for the
people coming into court.
That's so like consistently hewould name characters after his
friends.
That's really funny.
unknown (09:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
So Harry was like a juggler and a magician.
Yeah.
The actor was.
And so the character was aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Yes.
And I might be wrong about this,but I think the fact that Harry
T.
Stone loved Mel Tour May, Ithink that was also Harry
Anderson.
That's one aspect of it.
There's uh there's also like akind of repetitive comedy where
the same joke is repeatedmultiple times that I find very
satisfying, especially the waylike they change it slightly and
(09:57):
repeat it.
And I'll I'll give an example.
The show has a lot of heart inthat every episode in is in some
way a very special episode, ifyou remember those from the 80s.
So every single episode has somesort of moral.
And that's I think part of thereason why our parents were okay
(10:20):
with us watching it.
And part of why I feel like Iwas texting you yesterday as I
was watching saying this showdoes not age well.
But then I was like going, well,maybe it does because the
ickiness keeps being undercut.
I'll get to that.
And specifically Dan Fielding,that character, John Larquette
(10:41):
won the Emmy four times in arow, 85 through 89.
And by 1989, after the fourthtime he won, he withdrew his
name from contention.
Now, that was not just becausehe was like, I can't keep
winning, please.
It was also because he's like, Idon't want to be typecast.
(11:01):
If I keep winning for DanFielding, I'm only ever going to
be a sleazy guy.
Part of it is like he plays thischaracter in such a way that you
don't hate him.
Even though he's hateful, theshow walks this line, even
though it's icky.
And I'll I'll get into it.
I want to talk about thedifference between TV writing
then versus now.
(11:23):
As I mentioned, there's givingwith one hand and taking away
with the other in terms ofthings like homophobia,
transphobia, misogyny, and fatshaming.
Fat shaming is the one wherethey kind of don't ever give
with one hand.
It's really just only takingaway.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
Yeah, I mean, it's still today.
I feel like that it's like theone identity that is still okay
to just shit on.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Yeah.
Is fat folks.
I might get a little bit intothe sexual tension between Harry
and Christine.
I also like the show's funny.
It's very, very funny.
There are a couple of charactersyou missed, and I kind of want
to go into how things shook outbecause we did not quite get
that lineup of characters untilthe third season.
Oh.
(12:05):
So the only three characters whowere there all nine seasons were
Harry T.
Stone, played by Harry Anderson,Dan Fielding, played by John La
Roquette, and Bull Shannon,played by Richard Mull.
In the first season, the courtmanager was a woman played by
Karen Austin and was theoriginal love interest for
Harry.
(12:25):
She was eventually replaced byMac, was the character's name
played by Charles Robinson.
You probably remember Mac.
He was the black guy who waslike, oh, real easygoing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I loved Mac.
Funny guy.
Dan Fielding was part of thedistrict attorney, so he was the
prosecutor.
There were multiple defenseattorneys, I don't remember the
specific names, before MarkyPost as Christine Sullivan took
over in the third season andbecame the love interest.
It took a while for them to findthe right match.
(13:01):
Originally, there was thebailiff along with Bull was this
very tiny older woman namedSelma.
I can't remember her character'slast name because she was played
by Selma Diamond, who she hadlike a voice.
Smoker's voice.
Yeah, she had a smoker's voiceand she died of lung cancer.
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
I remember her.
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
She was also very snarky.
Yes, she was hilarious.
She was delightful.
Richard Mull is, I think, sixfoot eight, and she was like
five foot one.
Right.
So they were just hilarious andgreat together.
When she passed away, they hiredanother older woman, similar
(13:47):
kind of smoker's voice, FlorenceHallup, who also died of lung
cancer after one season.
And that's when they replacedher with Marsha Warfield, who
played Roz, where they're whowas 32 and didn't smoke.
They're like, and not quite soshort.
They're like, okay, we're notdoing this again.
(14:09):
So those were the major players.
There were a few people who yousaw recurring characters.
One is Daniel Frischman, who wasa little person who was Dan's
boss, the district attorneyVincent Daniels was his name.
I'm mentioning him because hewas in one of the episodes I
(14:29):
watched.
And then Brent Spinner, who wenton to play Data, yes, was a
frequent defendant.
Uh, and then Annie O'Donnell washis played his wife, Bob and
June Wheeler.
Complete like when you see sortof remember that.
Yeah.
Uh Yaakov Smirnov uh was aRussian immigrant named Yaakov
(14:51):
Koralenko.
Mel Tormay was a was frequentlyon the show.
As himself.
Yeah.
Terry Kaiser, friend of theshow, he was Bernie of Weekend
at Bernie's.
Oh.
And then John Aston, who hadbeen Gomez in the TV show of the
uh Adams Family, was Harry'sstepfather buddy.
(15:14):
Dan had a like errand boy whowas kind of a vagrant man living
on the street named Phil, playedby William Ute.
Now I want to talk about how TVwriting worked then versus now
and how I watched episodes.
I just picked a season andwatched a few episodes and then
picked another season andwatched a few episodes because
(15:37):
unlike TV now, it doesn'tmatter.
Right.
Every episode stood alone.
Every episode stood alone.
Because sitcoms didn't needdidn't really have arcs in the
same way they do now.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Every once in a while you'd havea cliffhanger.
Every once in a while you'd havea three-episode arc.
But not really.
(15:58):
Yeah.
And in some ways, I feel likethat was freeing for writers'
rooms back then.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Because you only had to worry about the 24 minutes in
front of you.
You didn't have to think aboutlike you didn't have to worry
about continuity.
Right.
You didn't have to plot out thewhole thing.
Yeah.
Because of that, there are somethings that I'm not sure of.
I I watched about six episodesin preparation for this.
There were nine seasons, andabout the first season was short
(16:27):
because it was a midseasonpickup.
But I think there were about 24episodes per season.
So I watched about six.
Yeah.
I remember quite a few from whenI was a regular watcher as a
kid, but now that means that theshowrunners back then had to
know their characters, andthat's about it.
(16:49):
They didn't really have to knowlore.
And that's why, for instance,people who are like obsessive
about friends know that likeRoss was born in both May and
December.
Because in one in season three,he says he says his birthday was
in May, and in season seven, hesays it was in December or
(17:09):
something like that.
Because Writer's Room didn'tknow, didn't care, because who's
watching it all at once?
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
And like the goal was to getpeople to laugh while they're
watching, not to tell a cohesivestory.
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
It's not about that.
It's also the case that becauseit was broadcast, and if you
missed it, you missed it.
You needed to be able to comeback the following week and
still be able to follow.
Right.
Unlike, like that's why like Ican remember Twin Peaks when
that was on when I was in highschool, when it was being
broadcast, and it was like areally big deal.
(17:44):
You couldn't miss it because youwouldn't know what was going on.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
The next week.
And so, like with sitcoms, wherepeople, you know, they're not
gonna like, I mean, we did, butthey're less likely to rearrange
their life for it, but you wantthem to still come back the
following week or two weekslater or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
And one of the things that as I was reading
like people talking about this,one of the things people were
saying why this show was soenjoyable was that it packed so
many laughs in.
And part of the reason why itendured as long as it did was
because it was like comfortingbecause you had all these kooky
characters who you loved, likethey were all very lovable, even
(18:26):
the sleaze bag, and it wascomforting because it always
ends well.
Like, I mean, that's whatsitcoms do.
And it's very funny.
It's a laugh a minute.
I mean, like, there'sconsistently now.
This is one of those, like it'sI can never remember which is
which, the multi-camera with alaugh track.
So like you're cued when tolaugh.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
But even with that, I laughed out loud multiple
times as I was watching thisweek at stuff that I I was just
like, oh wow, I wasn't expectingthat.
I feel like that's a bigdifference in how TV is made
now.
Like, we don't have sitcoms likethat anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
We're consuming them so differently, too.
Yes.
And some of it is like Imentioned this in the last
episode.
Some of it is we don't sit downand watch TV anymore.
We are doing something elsewhile the TV is on.
And that's part of it.
And I don't know that for surethat this is true, but just
watching my kids consume media,so much of the humor feels
(19:26):
mean-spirited.
My youngest really likes Twitchstreamers, so like he's watching
people play video games.
They're entertaining, butthere's so much yelling and just
feels mean-spirited in a waythat I don't really understand.
Although, to be fair, there'smean-spirited jokes in this as
well.
There's, you know, consistentlymaking fun of Bull for not being
(19:48):
very smart.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Mom and our stepfather used to say they
could only watch SpongeBob whenI was around because that's when
they knew how to laugh.
Like when to laugh, like whatwas funny.
Some of the media that mydaughter consumes, I feel that
way about.
Like I she laughs and I'm like,what was funny about that?
Like, I don't get it.
You say six, seven, and do yourhands like this, and like all of
(20:10):
her generation, like crack up.
There is nothing funny aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (20:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Yeah.
Some of it I think maybe thereis some more mean spirited.
There's definitely a lot moreyelling.
But some of it, like, I justdon't get.
It's a cultural reference thatI'm not privy to.
SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
Let me talk about some of the comedy.
So the repetitive comedy.
This is the thing that like Ijust I cracked up every single
time.
So one of the episodes I watchedis it was called Authorore.
I think it was what the titlewas.
It was a season four episode.
Bull has entered a contestthrough the one of the local
(20:48):
like New York colleges to createa children's book.
And I don't remember what hecalled it.
It was something like, you know,Chucky meets out death or
something like that.
And he's drawing a picture forthe cover.
And so professor who is headingthe people who are judging it,
they're having like eight to10-year-old kids judge the
(21:10):
submissions.
So the professor who's in chargeof this contest comes to the
courtroom and finds Bull and hesays, Are you Bull Shannon?
He says, Yes, I am.
And he says, Did you write this?
And he says, Yes, I did.
And he's like, This is the mostdepraved piece of literature I
have ever seen.
I cannot imagine who, what kindof mind would write this filth.
(21:31):
And so Bull goes, Did I win?
And then Harry calls him over.
He's like, What's going on?
The professor comes over andsays, like, this piece was
entered into a contest, andeight and 10 year olds were
subjected to this horrible,nightmare inducing piece of
literature.
And Harry goes, Did he win?
(21:55):
And it changes a little bitevery time.
And like, multiple people, likeThen later on, Dan comes in and
goes, like, did he win?
And it was just like, I don'tknow why.
Like the fact that it keptgoing, like the first did I win
was hilarious.
(22:15):
But the fact that it wasrepeated, like, I died.
Like, cause I don't know whythat was so funny, but that kind
of repetitive comedy killed me.
I loved it.
That was really just delightful.
There's a lot of slapstick andphysical comedy because of Harry
Anderson.
One of the episodes I saw wasset at Halloween.
(22:37):
So Harry Teastone lovesHalloween because I suspect
Harry Anderson does, becausealso a lot of prop comedy, a lot
of like magic type stuff.
And so we see him, he's reallybummed at that point because of
there's a a kid who's an orphanplayed by Bumper Robinson, who
was niece, yeah, in enemy mine.
And the kid has gone missing.
(22:58):
Harry is really bummed about it.
And so he's like hammering anail into his hand.
Mm-hmm.
Mac is like is who is also intoHalloween, is just like, sir,
you really need to stoptorturing yourself or something
like that.
When he's got like a nail in themiddle of his hand.
And Christine doesn't likeHalloween stuff.
(23:21):
And so she's trying to cheer himup with the stuff that she
hates.
Like it's a box full of internalorgans.
And she's like, oh, come on,this is a heart.
You know, like, don't let yourheart break.
And I don't even remember.
So, like that aspect of it andlike pure slapstick of it.
But that same episode, as Imentioned, Dan's boss is a
(23:45):
little person, and there's nomention of it.
He is wearing a costume inthat's like he's dressed as like
a squirrel or something.
The little person is.
The little person.
And Harry thinks it's Leon, thecharacter played by Bob and
Robinson.
And he's like, Oh, God, comehere, you little scamp, and
picks him up and hugs him andthen puts him down.
(24:06):
Daniels is the name of the boss.
He takes the mask off and he'slike, I think this might hurt
our professional relationship.
Other than the mistaken for achild, it's not remarked on that
he's a little person.
Dan very badly wants to go.
(24:29):
So Daniels is having a Halloweenparty.
And he is, because he's Dan'sboss, he is having like, he
apparently is gonna have themayor at the party.
Like, there's the rumors goingaround that he's gonna have a
lot of big mucky mucks.
And Dan, in addition to being asex fiend, is also like a suck
up.
And so he really, really wantsto go to this party.
And he's like begging his bossto let him come to this party.
(24:52):
The Daniels is like, I hate you.
I want nothing to do with you.
Like, I would be happy if youwere dead in a ditch or
something like that.
And then he ends with, nice jobon those reports, by the way.
Dan tells Christine, like, well,I'm just gonna sneak in.
It's a Halloween party.
I'll be in costume.
He won't know.
And the show ends with Dan incostume sneaking into the party,
(25:16):
and the party is entirely littlepeople.
So then he's the only one incostume, also.
So that's what I mean.
Like that's kind of a slapstickkind of setup.
I want to transition intotalking about Dan is almost
(25:38):
always the butt of the joke.
That I thought, like when I sawuh, because I had totally
forgotten about that character,yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
I remember him now that you've said it, I can see
him in my mind, but I hadtotally forgotten him.
SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
Yeah.
So when I saw him, I was justlike, oh no, where's this going?
And I was really pleasantlysurprised.
Like Dan is a little grossbecause he's Dan.
Like when he, you know, says, Ihope, you know, I hate you,
blah, blah, blah.
And like, nice job on thereports, by the way.
Dan calls after him, I hate yourlittle suit, which I don't know.
(26:14):
Like, I don't know how I feelabout that line.
But no one else, and he's he'ssupposed to be reprehensible.
No one else makes any kind ofremark.
And Harry is like, Oh, I thoughtyou were someone else when he
hugs him.
Daniel says, like, yeah,something along the lines of
occupational hazard or somethinglike that.
He like he over and done with.
(26:36):
So, like that went very well.
One of the storylines that Iremember vividly was I did not
see it, didn't know how to findit.
But Dan has a friend fromcollege who is coming to see
him.
He hasn't seen him sincecollege.
(26:57):
And is trans.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Yes.
Oh my God, I remember that.
Like his best friend fromcollege is now a woman.
Yes.
And he's always a woman and nowidentifies as a woman.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Yeah, and is getting married.
And so when she comes to to seeDan, his first thought is that
this is the fiance.
It was so affirming because Danis like, can't handle it.
And Harry is like, this is theperson you've always loved.
This is the friend you've alwaysknown and loved.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
And like Dan eventually accepts.
Comes around.
Yeah.
Dan has this core of decency.
And even in that episode, Iremember the way that he greets
his old friend when he thinksshe is the friend's fiance is so
different from how he treats anywoman he uh sees otherwise.
(27:50):
Because he is constantly hittingon women, always.
Um, and yet he sees his oldfriend.
And in my memory, and I don'tknow if this is true, but in my
memory, the woman is namedChristine.
I feel like it's she's namedafter, and I'm I can't remember
her last name, but Christine,something with a J, who was the
(28:11):
first trans woman who had genderreassignment surgery.
I might be misremembering.
In any case, he gives her a hugand is like, oh, you must be
so-and-so, you know, thefriend's like fiance.
I'm so delighted to meet you.
And you're the woman who stolehis heart, and like gives her a
level of respect that he doesn'tgive women he sees as objects.
SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
That leads into one of the episodes I watched.
The episode starts with everyonebringing Christine into the
courtroom, like Bull and severalof them, and Mac, like, oh,
Christine's had a like aterrible scare.
She had nearly choked to deathon her lunch.
This is Marky Post, ChristinePost.
Christine, yes.
(28:58):
Thank you.
Marky Post, Christine.
Dan had saved her life becausehe had in his pocket a guide to
the Heimlich maneuver.
And one of the things on isremove restrictive clothing.
And she's wearing a trench coat,and underneath he's removed her
shirt and bra, and he has it.
And Christine's like, Thank you,you saved my life.
And Harry says to her, He gropedyou.
(29:20):
And Christine is very gratefuland says, Like, how can I ever
repay you?
And he says, Sleep with me.
Gross.
It is.
And so the entire episode is hersaying, Absolutely not, I'm not
gonna do that.
And he's trying different thingsto convince her, like, I well, I
saved your life.
You owe me.
(29:41):
It's disgusting.
And she feels guilty.
Ugh.
And so she finally says, Allright, fine.
And so he gets a hotel room.
And there is a like a funnymoment where he is in the hotel
room.
There is a like the like themanager of the hotel comes up
(30:03):
with champagne that he'sordered.
Dan says, like, this is going tobe a night of paradise.
And Christine walks in and goes,like, all right, let's get this
over with.
It's gross, but the dichotomybetween like from the point of
view of the hotel manager isfunny.
(30:26):
The rest of the courtroom showup one by one to try to, like uh
um Harry describes them as we'rethe sexual SWAT team to try to
interrupt things.
There also happens to be a manon the balcony trying to commit
suicide, excuse me, trying todie by suicide because he's a
38-year-old virgin.
(30:49):
Which Harry says, no one wouldknow if you didn't tell people.
And then Bull comes in and says,What's the virgin on the balcony
doing?
Um, just by looking at him.
Christine yells at everyonesaying, like, you think that I
can't make my own decisions, andif I want to sleep with a sleazy
man, that's my choice.
So get out of here.
(31:11):
I have made this decision.
It is my choice.
Get out of here.
So they leave.
It's Harry, Mac, Roz, and Bull.
She has put on like a moo mooand like a hairnet and like a
mask on her, like a poorcleansing mask.
(31:31):
He gets her to take that stuffoff, and she's just wearing
jeans and a t-shirt underneath,and he's like kissing her neck,
and then he's like, Oh, I can'tdo it.
And she's like, I knew it, Iknew you couldn't.
He's like, Yeah, I respect you.
That's why you can't.
And they have this conversation,and she's like, I knew you're a
decent person underneath the allof that.
(31:54):
And they have this conversation,he's like, but I will hit on you
every day for the rest of yourlife.
And they have it's this weirdtension where she's like, I know
that you're a decent person, Iknow that you respect me, and
like I know, and like that'sthat's why I will continue to be
(32:16):
civil to you, or something likethat.
And he's like, Well, what aboutyou know, the Yahoos we work
with?
And she's like, What happensbetween the two of us is our
business.
And then she goes to open thedoor and they're all standing
there with their ears.
Listening.
So that was one episode.
There was another episode I sawwhere there was a woman played
by Fran Dresher, who is in courtbecause there was a man caught
(32:40):
peeping at her, and she's likevery buttoned up, and she is the
man is he's like the gas meterguy, and he claims that she was
putting on a show for him whileshe was getting out of the
shower.
She is like, with her FranDresher voice, like the high
nasally voice, was like, youknow, there's no propriety these
(33:03):
days.
And this also grossed me out.
Harry says, like, well, there'sno proof one way or the other,
case dismissed.
Ugh.
And so Fran Dresher, I don'tremember the character's name,
Fran Dresher goes to Dan's,like, there's no justice in this
world anymore.
And I don't remember what hesays.
A few minutes pass, she comesback and she has put on a much
(33:25):
lower, sultry voice, and she'slike coming on to him and was
like, Can we go someplace morecomfortable or something like
that?
And they end up in a closet andshe smacks him.
This happens twice.
At the end, we find out she hassplit personality disorder,
(33:47):
which, you know, was a very 80spunchline.
And the last frame of theepisode, Harry says, like, he
fell for it twice.
He's not gonna fall for it athird time about her.
He is hog tied with his tie inhis mouth on his desk in the
courtroom.
Roz has a Polaroid and says, Whowants a copy?
(34:08):
and takes a photo of him, andthat's what it ends on.
So that's what I mean, where heis the butt of the joke.
It's really, I don't know whereto land with his character.
Because John Larquette is acharming actor.
Like he is able to thread theneedle of saying these sleazy
(34:31):
lines and not making meabsolutely hate him, even though
they are despicable.
Right.
40 years on, they're like waymore despicable than they were
when they were written.
Right.
But I still was able to likefind him kind of likable.
(34:52):
I don't know how he was able todo that.
Now, some of that is the is thefact that Reinhold Wiege made it
clear that he is not someone toaspire to be, and made it clear
that he is gross, he is icky,and the only thing that makes
him forgivable is that he doeshave a court of decency.
(35:14):
But there is still that sense oflike he respects Christine Marky
Post, but is that because herespects her because she's a
lawyer and smart?
Or is it because he respectswomen?
It's not because he respectswomen, right?
He respects certain women.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah.
And how much of the work of youas the viewer liking him is
actually done by the Christinecharacter, right?
Like, I don't buy it that hewould say, No, I can't do this,
I respect you.
I don't buy it.
I mean, like we all chose thebear even before we knew about
(35:51):
the so-called rape academy thatthe news just broke recently,
where people men were liketeaching each other to do this
to their wives.
Like, I just that's the fantasyis that a man that would behave
like that publicly would havethat moment of stopping himself.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
Our very first episode was Twilight, right?
And, you know, Edward is thefantasy, you know, like I love
you too much to kill you, eventhough I could.
And now I do think I think thatReinhold Wiege is, and I don't
(36:34):
know if he's still alive or not.
I haven't I didn't check that,but I think that he is an
optimist.
I think that he believes in thegoodness of the human heart.
Because, as I said, everyepisode is kind of a very
special episode.
Every episode has heart becauseevery episode has like this
moral to it that, like, don'tjudge a book by its cover.
(36:56):
Every episode is about how Danhas a core of decency.
There really are like there's away to fix a marriage that seems
broken.
Like your friend is still yourfriend, even if they are not the
gender that you thought theywere.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
Even like the relationship between Roz and
Bull, who like don't look likethey go together, but there's a
core of like real mutualaffection between those two.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Well, and then the just the fact that Harry is the
judge, I did watch the pilotepisode just to kind of get
reacquainted.
How did they frame it?
SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
And like initially, all of the like professionals in
the courtroom who are waitingfor him are horrified by his way
of dealing with things becausehe's young and unorthodox and
doing things completely unlikeany other judge.
And it's like, but you knowwhat?
He does have a way of handlingthings that could be better than
(37:58):
the old way.
And, you know, like he islooking to try to do the best
thing for the people in hiscourt and not just get through
the docket.
So, like, there is this sunnycenter to this show.
There's a reason why Larquettekept winning Emmys.
(38:21):
He is like, he's a really goodactor, and he manages to carry
that sense of like I'm a betterperson than I pretend to be.
It just doesn't representreality.
Yeah.
(38:41):
On the one hand, I don't need mysitcoms to represent reality.
Right.
On the other, as aneight-year-old watching TV, do I
want to be taking in the ideathat men are going to police
themselves?
SPEAKER_00 (39:00):
Right.
Right.
Even it wasn't a show made forchildren.
So we happen to watch it when wewere eight and eleven, but like
it wasn't made for kids.
No.
But even still, even as a, youknow, even the 23-year-olds and
the 33-year-olds watching it,like, yeah, I as a society, we
(39:22):
want to believe not all men.
And so we have these examples.
But the thing is, like, most, Imean, not until it's no men,
then we have to actually treatit as all men.
That's actually the it's notmost, I'm not even saying most,
but until it's no men, likethose of us who will be the
(39:44):
victims of that behavior need tobehave as though it's all men.
Yeah.
And that's the thing that thenot all men folks don't
understand.
Right?
It's not that, like, oh, I havemy feelings hurt because you
judge me.
Like, I didn't judge you.
I don't know you.
But like, people who look likeyou hurt people who look like
(40:06):
me.
SPEAKER_01 (40:07):
I actually I want to push back a little bit on the it
wasn't for kids.
It wasn't written for kids.
But it wasn't not written forkids.
Like it wasn't specifically forus, but it was a fan, it was a
show that I think Reinhold Wiegeknew families would be watching.
There were kids in the show, andlike there it was every episode
(40:28):
was a very special episode.
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
That so that's fair.
And also, like you write to anaudience, and obviously there
are secondary audiences, butyou're writing to an audience,
and he was not writing tochildren.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
And so, like, if I were Reinhold Wiege, to a
certain extent, I would be like,okay, you guys watched it when
you came home from school, butlike that's kind of on your
parents, that's not on me.
SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
The only reason why I'm pushing back on this is
because I feel like there is akind of kiddie wholesomeness to
this that Reinhold Weige didintentionally.
SPEAKER_00 (41:01):
On purpose.
Yeah.
All the more so than your pointabout like if the picture that
we have of like men behaving insleazy, frankly predatory manner
is that actually there's a coreof goodness underneath of that.
Yes.
Yes.
That's dangerous.
Yes.
That's actually dangerous.
(41:22):
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, the show recognized thathe was an exception.
That was kind of what was like,that's why we don't hate him, is
because he was an exception.
But like your brain doesn't pickup the exception.
It just picks up what's in frontof what's in front of us, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
Yeah.
That's what's really tough towatch.
And like that's part of likehe's a trope.
Like the so many comedies havekind of Barney and Barney and
How I Met Your Mother.
Yeah.
I was pleased to see that thathe was the way that Weige
handled it was by making him thebutt of the joke.
(42:00):
And that helped me contextualizethe show and why I found it so
funny as a kid.
So, like, okay, that makessense.
And some of it was like, I thinkWeige was skewering the like
yuppies of the 80s.
Dan started off in the first twoseasons.
He was more like of aconservative snob who was like
(42:22):
really into money and like greedis good type stuff.
And he like over time, theywrote him to be like he was kind
of like a little bit into womensleazy, but like the he
transformed more into the sleazycharacter who was greedy also.
But like he always wore thethree-piece suits.
I don't know if you rememberthat.
Some of this I think wasskewering that aspect of 80s
(42:45):
culture, especially in puttingit next to Harry Anderson, or
excuse me, Harry Stone, who worejeans under his robes.
So there's that aspect of it aswell.
Because I think Weige was tryingalso to make it clear that this
was not something to aspire to.
SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
That culture difference, that culture
contrast, even like the I'm aMac and I'm a PC compartion that
came later, but Harry was a Mac.
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dan Fielding was a PC.
Yes.
Yes.
That's part of like with DanFielding, like that's part of
what I'm talking about, likewith giving with one hand and
then taking with the other.
SPEAKER_02 (43:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:23):
The moment with that the friend, where like that
really was kind of a veryprogressive episode in the like
late 80s to have an entireepisode about a trans woman and
have a very conservative personaccept her as his best friend.
(43:44):
There was quite a bit of likecasual homophobia that was also
kind of not.
So in the episode that I sawwith the man who wanted to jump
off the balcony because he was a38-year-old virgin, the They
kept joking that, like, oh, if Isave your life, you have to
sleep with me.
So there was a point where Harryalmost tripped over something
(44:06):
and Roz like pulled him back andsaid, like, oh, I just saved
your life.
Now you have to sleep with me.
So like that was another likerepetitive joke.
And Dan with Cyril is the nameof the man who's threatening to
jump.
And Dan is like yelling at him,like, oh, if you're gonna do it,
just do it.
And the man like goes to fallbackwards and Dan grabs his
shirt and pulls him in.
(44:28):
Cyril goes, You just saved mylife.
And so Harry goes, Well, now youhave to sleep with him.
And the man like is thinkingabout it.
He's like, Well, maybe.
And and Dan's like, no, no,that's not how this works.
And it's this tension becauseit's kind of a little bit
(44:52):
homophobic, but kind of a littlebit progressive for the 80s.
SPEAKER_00 (44:58):
Right.
Like maybe that's why Cyril wasa virgin because he's not
actually straight.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:02):
There's an episode I didn't see, but I remember
another one that, like, this iswhat I think back on when I
think about the casualhomophobia I remember from
childhood.
There was an episode where,because Dan was part of like not
Merchant Marines, but like thewhat's the military you do on
the weekends?
National Guard?
Yeah, National Guard, thank you.
He's part of the National Guard,but he never thought he'd be
(45:22):
deployed.
They come to get him, and he'slike, I gotta get out of this.
So he hires Phil, the likehomeless guy, lackey.
Who runs errands for him, runserrands for him to pretend to be
his lover because at the time.
Don't ask, don't tell.
It was before Don't Ask, Don'tTell.
Oh.
(45:42):
It was just straight, like ifyou not straight.
The opposite of that.
There was no homosexualityallowed whatsoever.
And it backfires because he wasgoing to be sent to this jungle
with a like super gorgeous womanand his uniform was like a
speedo that was junglecamouflage.
(46:04):
And so again, Dan is the butt ofthe joke.
He is the one who's being madefun of because he is hoist by
his own petard by hiring Phil topretend to be his gay lover and
like he's missing out onsomething that he would actually
really want to do.
And I just I can't tease it outbecause like there's not really
(46:27):
anything said about the armybeing homophobic in that.
There's not really anything saidabout how like fucked up it is
that the army would then belike, no.
SPEAKER_00 (46:40):
Also, like whatever this deployment was, I don't
care what the uniform, like itwasn't a sex trip.
That's not what National Guardor Army Reservists are doing.
Yeah.
Even if it is in a likedesirable, I'm putting that in
quotations, location.
Like, yeah.
So there's like I mean, andyeah, whatever, it was a joke.
(47:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:01):
But it's yeah, it's kind of silly.
It's all a joke.
It's all at Dan's expense.
It does not examine thehomophobia.
Anything really.
Yeah.
It does skewer Dan's willingnessto use homophobia to his
(47:22):
advantage, but it doesn'texamine the broader homophobia
of the army.
It doesn't examine the broaderhomophobia of our society.
SPEAKER_00 (47:31):
Yeah.
So even the him using it to getout of something, like there's
something kind of interestingthere because his reputation,
his sexual reputation isobviously important to him.
Right?
That's the episode that youtalked about that you told me
about, where he and Christinedon't end up actually sleeping
together.
It's his reputation that shesays, Well, what happened
(47:52):
between us is our business.
She was gonna let them let therest of the cast believe that
they had slept together.
That was her kindness to him.
Because his sexual reputationmatters.
And so there actually issomething really significant and
maybe out of character withinthe context of the 1980s.
(48:15):
Like that's the progressive movein some ways.
SPEAKER_01 (48:18):
Except that it's also made clear that he's a
coward.
SPEAKER_00 (48:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:21):
He's willing to, he's willing to sacrifice his
reputation to protect his life.
SPEAKER_00 (48:25):
More complicated than I expected, honestly, when
we hit record, when I wasremembering this character in my
head.
All right, let me see if I canreflect back to you quickly.
So, Nightcourt, this TV show,this sitcom, very funny.
Because of slapstick andphysical comedy, because of like
the repetition and sort ofiteration of the same joke over
and over again.
(48:46):
One of the things this sitcomhad was heart, is the way that
you talked about it.
Every episode was a very specialepisode because it had this sort
of moral to it that youdescribed as sunny, as optimism,
as like Reinhold Wiege making itsomething that like maybe
families could consume together.
(49:07):
Although there's some pretty notfamily-friendly stuff in it from
my memory.
Notably Dan Fielding, sexualpredator, yes, but also kind of
a mensch in disguise.
I don't know.
Can he be a mensch if it's indisguise?
Probably.
Some of the way that kind ofshows up is by making him the
(49:31):
butt of the joke.
And so we see that he's amensch.
We we have the show tell us thathis reprehensible behavior has
consequences because he ends uphogtight on his desk or
whatever.
But there's so there's like youdescribed it as giving with one
hand and taking with the other.
And that is in particular withsort of his behavior and
(49:54):
misogyny, also the transphobia,also the homophobia.
Fat phobia, not so much giving,really just taking.
We didn't talk about specificexamples, but you named that.
We also named TV writing thenversus now, based on how we
consume.
So then each episode really wasa standalone.
If you missed an episode, youcould pick right back up.
(50:15):
And now seasons are meant tohave much more of an arc than
they once did.
And that you described likewondering if that was freeing
for the writers to a certainextent, because they only had to
worry about the 24 minutes rightin front of them.
But that also means there's likecontinuity errors when we watch
things the way we watch themnow, which is to binge them all
at once.
(50:36):
I think lastly, I think the showcontributed or traded on this
sort of idea of New York in the1980s as being like really kind
of a shit show.
And you named that by placingthis in court at night in New
York in the 80s, in some ways itwas really a smart writing move
(50:59):
because it's such a ripe groundfor like interesting, kooky,
weirdo characters who comethrough that, like you're like,
as a viewer, you're like, Yep, Ibelieve it.
It's New York and it's nightcourt.
Like, so the boring cases wentto daytime court.
What I forget.
SPEAKER_01 (51:16):
The cast altogether, like every single member of the
cast, it's a really good, like,group dynamic because each
member of the cast bringssomething different.
And so it's a like a workplacecomedy where you have that.
Like you always have like thatwith a workplace comedy.
And it took them a little whilebecause there's only three cast
(51:37):
members who are there fromseason one through season nine,
Harry Bull and Dan.
But they did a really good jobof creating this cohesive group
of people who are all weird orlike kookier in some way, but
that they make this reallyinteresting group of people that
can like kind of work off ofeach other and work off of the
kooky characters who comethrough.
(51:59):
It's just very satisfying as aworkplace comedy.
unknown (52:03):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (52:03):
Well, next week I'm gonna bring you my deep thoughts
about an American tale, whichwas the Don Bluth film that
after I watched The Land BeforeTime, I was like, oh, I should
have done that one first.
So I'm circling back to this DonBluth animated film for next
week.
Nice.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(52:23):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(52:44):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Uh part of the reason why it endured as long as
it did was because it was likecomforting because you had all
these kooky characters who youloved, like they were all very
lovable, even the sleaze bag.
And it was comforting because italways ends well.
Like, I mean, that's whatsitcoms do.
And it's very funny.
(00:20):
It's a laugh a minute.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
I'm Emily Guy Birken, and this is Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1980s era sitcom Night Courtwith my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, Trace, I know youknow this show.
(01:03):
We used to watch it togetherafter school.
Yeah.
What's in your head about NightCourt?
SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
I love this show so much.
So I don't remember a singlestoryline, but I remember the
characters pretty well.
So Harry, the judge, who's sortof sort of the protagonist,
who's like a super young andlike goofy juggler, and like got
the gig because they needed anew judge.
And so they were like going downthe line of making phone calls,
(01:28):
and he was the only one thatanswered the phone.
And the two primary lawyers inthe court, the public defender
and the prosecutor, and Ihonestly don't remember which
was which, but one was DanFielding, played by John
Larriquette, who was like alovable rogue that when I think
back on it with today's eyes,I'm like, ooh, maybe not so
(01:51):
lovable.
And then the female lawyer,whose name you had to remind me
of, which is funny because Iremember everybody else's names,
but her name was Christine.
I remember that she was blonde,and there was some sexual
tension between her and Harry,the judge.
And the two bailiffs who I alsoloved, Roz, who was like a short
(02:13):
black woman who was snarky, andI thought she was hilarious.
And Bull, the tall white dudewith a shaved head who wasn't
super bright, but the two ofthem had like an interesting
like relationship where theycared about each other, but Raz
was always like making fun ofBull and stuff.
(02:34):
And I remember there's at leastone episode with a puppet with a
bull, a bull puppet that wasvery funny.
And I don't know if you knowthis, but my boyfriend before I
got married, Art, he shaved hishead at one point while we were
together and he picked me up,and I didn't know his head had
been shaved.
And like he picked me up, and Igot in the car and I was like,
oh my God, you look like Bull.
(02:58):
And I was like simultaneouslydelighted and a little icked out
that he looked like Bull fromthat court.
So I don't remember a singlestoryline, but those characters
are still very real and vibrantin my head.
And like specific moments, likehow Harry got the job and like
(03:20):
Bull with his puppet.
So like I have specific moments,but I don't have any storylines.
So anyway, that's the furniturein my mind.
It's actually people.
But tell me, um, why are wetalking about Night Court today?
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
So I don't remember what reminded me of it recently,
but this was a show that Ireally, really liked.
And it was in syndication whenwe were in like elementary,
middle, high school.
It actually ran from 1984 to1992.
So it was still going.
Like it was still airing newepisodes when I remember
(03:53):
watching it after school.
I'd get home from school and I'dmake myself a snack and I'd
watch like two night courtreruns back to back.
And then apparently onThursdays, I'd also watch a new
episode because it was my C TVon Thursday.
And I remember just really,really liking it.
There are certain jokes thathave become part of my lexicon.
(04:16):
Oh, oh, uh-huh.
So if someone asks me why is thesky blue, I say because if we're
green, we wouldn't know when tostop mowing.
Because that's a nightcourtjoke.
That's a nightcourt joke.
SPEAKER_00 (04:29):
I did not know that was a nightcourt joke.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
There was a cold open where they're talking about
like there's hurricane-levelwinds of like 80 miles an hour,
and then Dan comes in to Harry'schambers and his underwear is
around his neck, and he's likepulling at it, going, guaranteed
not to ride up.
(04:54):
So like things like that are inmy head.
There's another one wherethere's some sort of power
outage or something like that,and there was a court case
involving like a whole passel ofwomen who are very, very
pregnant, and all of them gointo labor at once.
And so, like, many, they're alllike giving birth, and like
(05:15):
everyone's trying to help them.
And in the cafeteria, bull ishelping one woman give birth and
the baby is breech.
The bull's helping, and he'slike, Would you look at the grin
on that baby's face?
SPEAKER_03 (05:28):
Because it's he's looking at Toshi.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
He's looking at Tatoshi.
So there are things that arejust in my head about this show
and always have been.
But I also, as I have becomemore aware of my internalized
homophobia and internalizedtransphobia, I recognize that a
(05:54):
lot of it was built on watchingthis show.
This specific show, really.
Just because there are somethings I remember some jokes in
this show, although this showwas also in a lot of ways very
progressive.
And like it kind of gave withone hand and took away with the
other, and it was very wellintentioned.
(06:18):
It was clearly very wellintentioned.
And the people involved, Ithink, really were trying their
best.
But this was the toxic waters weswam in in the 80s.
Yeah.
Because you've remarked beforethat I have a really good memory
for these kinds of stories.
(06:39):
Some of this is just, I justremember some of the things, and
they stuck with me.
And then once I knew better, Ilooked back on them and was
like, ew.
But what also stuck with me werethe things that were well
intentioned and worked outnicely, and they did a lovely
(07:01):
job of.
I had a little crush on HarryAnderson.
Me too.
I liked him and Marky Post, whoplayed Christine.
And then I like workplacecomedies.
I find them very satisfying.
And then the idea, the setup ofthis show is very intelligent in
that because it's set up asnight court, so it's already
(07:24):
like New York in the 80s wasalready the idea, was this place
was kind of a mess.
Yeah.
And then you're talking aboutwho's coming before the judge at
night.
It's gonna be the kooks.
(07:45):
So you've got this rotating castof extras coming through.
It's the weird cases.
So like that is just reallygreat fertile soil for comedy to
bring in these rotating casts ofcharacters that you can have the
regulars play off of, and thenyou have the regular characters,
(08:05):
you've got kind of archetypeswith each of them that you can
then have them like play off theweirdos that are coming through.
It just seems like a dream of awriting job.
And so there I think there's areason why I enjoyed it.
We enjoyed it as much as we did.
And there are a lot of peoplewho say it was one of the best
(08:26):
sitcoms of the 80s.
And I'll get into that in a bit.
So you did a pretty good job ofremembering the characters.
There's a little bit more Iwanna I wanna kind of get into.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
Do you want to give me some postcards first?
I mean, you have a little bitalready, but do you have any
additional postcards from thedestination that you want to
share before we do that?
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
Yeah, so there's some things that I'm gonna talk
about.
I'm gonna talk about like thehumor.
So there's a lot of differenttypes of humor in it.
There's slapstick and physicalcomedy.
Harry Anderson was hired becausehe was a magician and did
physical comedy.
Reinhold Wiege, who was theshowrunner, specifically saw him
on Saturday Night Live andwanted him for that.
SPEAKER_00 (09:05):
I remember, I do remember one episode where we
learned Dan's actual like realname, his legal name is
Reinhold.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Yes.
Yes.
And apparently Weige would usethe names of his friends for the
people coming into court.
That's so like consistently hewould name characters after his
friends.
That's really funny.
unknown (09:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:27):
So Harry was like a juggler and a magician.
Yeah.
The actor was.
And so the character was aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
Yes.
And I might be wrong about this,but I think the fact that Harry
T.
Stone loved Mel Tour May, Ithink that was also Harry
Anderson.
That's one aspect of it.
There's uh there's also like akind of repetitive comedy where
the same joke is repeatedmultiple times that I find very
satisfying, especially the waylike they change it slightly and
(09:57):
repeat it.
And I'll I'll give an example.
The show has a lot of heart inthat every episode in is in some
way a very special episode, ifyou remember those from the 80s.
So every single episode has somesort of moral.
And that's I think part of thereason why our parents were okay
(10:20):
with us watching it.
And part of why I feel like Iwas texting you yesterday as I
was watching saying this showdoes not age well.
But then I was like going, well,maybe it does because the
ickiness keeps being undercut.
I'll get to that.
And specifically Dan Fielding,that character, John Larquette
(10:41):
won the Emmy four times in arow, 85 through 89.
And by 1989, after the fourthtime he won, he withdrew his
name from contention.
Now, that was not just becausehe was like, I can't keep
winning, please.
It was also because he's like, Idon't want to be typecast.
(11:01):
If I keep winning for DanFielding, I'm only ever going to
be a sleazy guy.
Part of it is like he plays thischaracter in such a way that you
don't hate him.
Even though he's hateful, theshow walks this line, even
though it's icky.
And I'll I'll get into it.
I want to talk about thedifference between TV writing
then versus now.
(11:23):
As I mentioned, there's givingwith one hand and taking away
with the other in terms ofthings like homophobia,
transphobia, misogyny, and fatshaming.
Fat shaming is the one wherethey kind of don't ever give
with one hand.
It's really just only takingaway.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
Yeah, I mean, it's still today.
I feel like that it's like theone identity that is still okay
to just shit on.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
Yeah.
Is fat folks.
I might get a little bit intothe sexual tension between Harry
and Christine.
I also like the show's funny.
It's very, very funny.
There are a couple of charactersyou missed, and I kind of want
to go into how things shook outbecause we did not quite get
that lineup of characters untilthe third season.
Oh.
(12:05):
So the only three characters whowere there all nine seasons were
Harry T.
Stone, played by Harry Anderson,Dan Fielding, played by John La
Roquette, and Bull Shannon,played by Richard Mull.
In the first season, the courtmanager was a woman played by
Karen Austin and was theoriginal love interest for
Harry.
(12:25):
She was eventually replaced byMac, was the character's name
played by Charles Robinson.
You probably remember Mac.
He was the black guy who waslike, oh, real easygoing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:38):
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I loved Mac.
Funny guy.
Dan Fielding was part of thedistrict attorney, so he was the
prosecutor.
There were multiple defenseattorneys, I don't remember the
specific names, before MarkyPost as Christine Sullivan took
over in the third season andbecame the love interest.
It took a while for them to findthe right match.
(13:01):
Originally, there was thebailiff along with Bull was this
very tiny older woman namedSelma.
I can't remember her character'slast name because she was played
by Selma Diamond, who she hadlike a voice.
Smoker's voice.
Yeah, she had a smoker's voiceand she died of lung cancer.
SPEAKER_00 (13:23):
I remember her.
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
She was also very snarky.
Yes, she was hilarious.
She was delightful.
Richard Mull is, I think, sixfoot eight, and she was like
five foot one.
Right.
So they were just hilarious andgreat together.
When she passed away, they hiredanother older woman, similar
(13:47):
kind of smoker's voice, FlorenceHallup, who also died of lung
cancer after one season.
And that's when they replacedher with Marsha Warfield, who
played Roz, where they're whowas 32 and didn't smoke.
They're like, and not quite soshort.
They're like, okay, we're notdoing this again.
(14:09):
So those were the major players.
There were a few people who yousaw recurring characters.
One is Daniel Frischman, who wasa little person who was Dan's
boss, the district attorneyVincent Daniels was his name.
I'm mentioning him because hewas in one of the episodes I
(14:29):
watched.
And then Brent Spinner, who wenton to play Data, yes, was a
frequent defendant.
Uh, and then Annie O'Donnell washis played his wife, Bob and
June Wheeler.
Complete like when you see sortof remember that.
Yeah.
Uh Yaakov Smirnov uh was aRussian immigrant named Yaakov
(14:51):
Koralenko.
Mel Tormay was a was frequentlyon the show.
As himself.
Yeah.
Terry Kaiser, friend of theshow, he was Bernie of Weekend
at Bernie's.
Oh.
And then John Aston, who hadbeen Gomez in the TV show of the
uh Adams Family, was Harry'sstepfather buddy.
(15:14):
Dan had a like errand boy whowas kind of a vagrant man living
on the street named Phil, playedby William Ute.
Now I want to talk about how TVwriting worked then versus now
and how I watched episodes.
I just picked a season andwatched a few episodes and then
picked another season andwatched a few episodes because
(15:37):
unlike TV now, it doesn'tmatter.
Right.
Every episode stood alone.
Every episode stood alone.
Because sitcoms didn't needdidn't really have arcs in the
same way they do now.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Every once in a while you'd havea cliffhanger.
Every once in a while you'd havea three-episode arc.
But not really.
(15:58):
Yeah.
And in some ways, I feel likethat was freeing for writers'
rooms back then.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Because you only had to worry about the 24 minutes in
front of you.
You didn't have to think aboutlike you didn't have to worry
about continuity.
Right.
You didn't have to plot out thewhole thing.
Yeah.
Because of that, there are somethings that I'm not sure of.
I I watched about six episodesin preparation for this.
There were nine seasons, andabout the first season was short
(16:27):
because it was a midseasonpickup.
But I think there were about 24episodes per season.
So I watched about six.
Yeah.
I remember quite a few from whenI was a regular watcher as a
kid, but now that means that theshowrunners back then had to
know their characters, andthat's about it.
(16:49):
They didn't really have to knowlore.
And that's why, for instance,people who are like obsessive
about friends know that likeRoss was born in both May and
December.
Because in one in season three,he says he says his birthday was
in May, and in season seven, hesays it was in December or
(17:09):
something like that.
Because Writer's Room didn'tknow, didn't care, because who's
watching it all at once?
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
And like the goal was to getpeople to laugh while they're
watching, not to tell a cohesivestory.
SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
It's not about that.
It's also the case that becauseit was broadcast, and if you
missed it, you missed it.
You needed to be able to comeback the following week and
still be able to follow.
Right.
Unlike, like that's why like Ican remember Twin Peaks when
that was on when I was in highschool, when it was being
broadcast, and it was like areally big deal.
(17:44):
You couldn't miss it because youwouldn't know what was going on.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
The next week.
And so, like with sitcoms, wherepeople, you know, they're not
gonna like, I mean, we did, butthey're less likely to rearrange
their life for it, but you wantthem to still come back the
following week or two weekslater or whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
And one of the things that as I was reading
like people talking about this,one of the things people were
saying why this show was soenjoyable was that it packed so
many laughs in.
And part of the reason why itendured as long as it did was
because it was like comfortingbecause you had all these kooky
characters who you loved, likethey were all very lovable, even
(18:26):
the sleaze bag, and it wascomforting because it always
ends well.
Like, I mean, that's whatsitcoms do.
And it's very funny.
It's a laugh a minute.
I mean, like, there'sconsistently now.
This is one of those, like it'sI can never remember which is
which, the multi-camera with alaugh track.
So like you're cued when tolaugh.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:46):
But even with that, I laughed out loud multiple
times as I was watching thisweek at stuff that I I was just
like, oh wow, I wasn't expectingthat.
I feel like that's a bigdifference in how TV is made
now.
Like, we don't have sitcoms likethat anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
We're consuming them so differently, too.
Yes.
And some of it is like Imentioned this in the last
episode.
Some of it is we don't sit downand watch TV anymore.
We are doing something elsewhile the TV is on.
And that's part of it.
And I don't know that for surethat this is true, but just
watching my kids consume media,so much of the humor feels
(19:26):
mean-spirited.
My youngest really likes Twitchstreamers, so like he's watching
people play video games.
They're entertaining, butthere's so much yelling and just
feels mean-spirited in a waythat I don't really understand.
Although, to be fair, there'smean-spirited jokes in this as
well.
There's, you know, consistentlymaking fun of Bull for not being
(19:48):
very smart.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
Mom and our stepfather used to say they
could only watch SpongeBob whenI was around because that's when
they knew how to laugh.
Like when to laugh, like whatwas funny.
Some of the media that mydaughter consumes, I feel that
way about.
Like I she laughs and I'm like,what was funny about that?
Like, I don't get it.
You say six, seven, and do yourhands like this, and like all of
(20:10):
her generation, like crack up.
There is nothing funny aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (20:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Yeah.
Some of it I think maybe thereis some more mean spirited.
There's definitely a lot moreyelling.
But some of it, like, I justdon't get.
It's a cultural reference thatI'm not privy to.
SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
Let me talk about some of the comedy.
So the repetitive comedy.
This is the thing that like Ijust I cracked up every single
time.
So one of the episodes I watchedis it was called Authorore.
I think it was what the titlewas.
It was a season four episode.
Bull has entered a contestthrough the one of the local
(20:48):
like New York colleges to createa children's book.
And I don't remember what hecalled it.
It was something like, you know,Chucky meets out death or
something like that.
And he's drawing a picture forthe cover.
And so professor who is headingthe people who are judging it,
they're having like eight to10-year-old kids judge the
(21:10):
submissions.
So the professor who's in chargeof this contest comes to the
courtroom and finds Bull and hesays, Are you Bull Shannon?
He says, Yes, I am.
And he says, Did you write this?
And he says, Yes, I did.
And he's like, This is the mostdepraved piece of literature I
have ever seen.
I cannot imagine who, what kindof mind would write this filth.
(21:31):
And so Bull goes, Did I win?
And then Harry calls him over.
He's like, What's going on?
The professor comes over andsays, like, this piece was
entered into a contest, andeight and 10 year olds were
subjected to this horrible,nightmare inducing piece of
literature.
And Harry goes, Did he win?
(21:55):
And it changes a little bitevery time.
And like, multiple people, likeThen later on, Dan comes in and
goes, like, did he win?
And it was just like, I don'tknow why.
Like the fact that it keptgoing, like the first did I win
was hilarious.
(22:15):
But the fact that it wasrepeated, like, I died.
Like, cause I don't know whythat was so funny, but that kind
of repetitive comedy killed me.
I loved it.
That was really just delightful.
There's a lot of slapstick andphysical comedy because of Harry
Anderson.
One of the episodes I saw wasset at Halloween.
(22:37):
So Harry Teastone lovesHalloween because I suspect
Harry Anderson does, becausealso a lot of prop comedy, a lot
of like magic type stuff.
And so we see him, he's reallybummed at that point because of
there's a a kid who's an orphanplayed by Bumper Robinson, who
was niece, yeah, in enemy mine.
And the kid has gone missing.
(22:58):
Harry is really bummed about it.
And so he's like hammering anail into his hand.
Mm-hmm.
Mac is like is who is also intoHalloween, is just like, sir,
you really need to stoptorturing yourself or something
like that.
When he's got like a nail in themiddle of his hand.
And Christine doesn't likeHalloween stuff.
(23:21):
And so she's trying to cheer himup with the stuff that she
hates.
Like it's a box full of internalorgans.
And she's like, oh, come on,this is a heart.
You know, like, don't let yourheart break.
And I don't even remember.
So, like that aspect of it andlike pure slapstick of it.
But that same episode, as Imentioned, Dan's boss is a
(23:45):
little person, and there's nomention of it.
He is wearing a costume inthat's like he's dressed as like
a squirrel or something.
The little person is.
The little person.
And Harry thinks it's Leon, thecharacter played by Bob and
Robinson.
And he's like, Oh, God, comehere, you little scamp, and
picks him up and hugs him andthen puts him down.
(24:06):
Daniels is the name of the boss.
He takes the mask off and he'slike, I think this might hurt
our professional relationship.
Other than the mistaken for achild, it's not remarked on that
he's a little person.
Dan very badly wants to go.
(24:29):
So Daniels is having a Halloweenparty.
And he is, because he's Dan'sboss, he is having like, he
apparently is gonna have themayor at the party.
Like, there's the rumors goingaround that he's gonna have a
lot of big mucky mucks.
And Dan, in addition to being asex fiend, is also like a suck
up.
And so he really, really wantsto go to this party.
And he's like begging his bossto let him come to this party.
(24:52):
The Daniels is like, I hate you.
I want nothing to do with you.
Like, I would be happy if youwere dead in a ditch or
something like that.
And then he ends with, nice jobon those reports, by the way.
Dan tells Christine, like, well,I'm just gonna sneak in.
It's a Halloween party.
I'll be in costume.
He won't know.
And the show ends with Dan incostume sneaking into the party,
(25:16):
and the party is entirely littlepeople.
So then he's the only one incostume, also.
So that's what I mean.
Like that's kind of a slapstickkind of setup.
I want to transition intotalking about Dan is almost
(25:38):
always the butt of the joke.
That I thought, like when I sawuh, because I had totally
forgotten about that character,yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:46):
I remember him now that you've said it, I can see
him in my mind, but I hadtotally forgotten him.
SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
Yeah.
So when I saw him, I was justlike, oh no, where's this going?
And I was really pleasantlysurprised.
Like Dan is a little grossbecause he's Dan.
Like when he, you know, says, Ihope, you know, I hate you,
blah, blah, blah.
And like, nice job on thereports, by the way.
Dan calls after him, I hate yourlittle suit, which I don't know.
(26:14):
Like, I don't know how I feelabout that line.
But no one else, and he's he'ssupposed to be reprehensible.
No one else makes any kind ofremark.
And Harry is like, Oh, I thoughtyou were someone else when he
hugs him.
Daniel says, like, yeah,something along the lines of
occupational hazard or somethinglike that.
He like he over and done with.
(26:36):
So, like that went very well.
One of the storylines that Iremember vividly was I did not
see it, didn't know how to findit.
But Dan has a friend fromcollege who is coming to see
him.
He hasn't seen him sincecollege.
(26:57):
And is trans.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Yes.
Oh my God, I remember that.
Like his best friend fromcollege is now a woman.
Yes.
And he's always a woman and nowidentifies as a woman.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Yeah, and is getting married.
And so when she comes to to seeDan, his first thought is that
this is the fiance.
It was so affirming because Danis like, can't handle it.
And Harry is like, this is theperson you've always loved.
This is the friend you've alwaysknown and loved.
SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
And like Dan eventually accepts.
Comes around.
Yeah.
Dan has this core of decency.
And even in that episode, Iremember the way that he greets
his old friend when he thinksshe is the friend's fiance is so
different from how he treats anywoman he uh sees otherwise.
(27:50):
Because he is constantly hittingon women, always.
Um, and yet he sees his oldfriend.
And in my memory, and I don'tknow if this is true, but in my
memory, the woman is namedChristine.
I feel like it's she's namedafter, and I'm I can't remember
her last name, but Christine,something with a J, who was the
(28:11):
first trans woman who had genderreassignment surgery.
I might be misremembering.
In any case, he gives her a hugand is like, oh, you must be
so-and-so, you know, thefriend's like fiance.
I'm so delighted to meet you.
And you're the woman who stolehis heart, and like gives her a
level of respect that he doesn'tgive women he sees as objects.
SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (28:36):
That leads into one of the episodes I watched.
The episode starts with everyonebringing Christine into the
courtroom, like Bull and severalof them, and Mac, like, oh,
Christine's had a like aterrible scare.
She had nearly choked to deathon her lunch.
This is Marky Post, ChristinePost.
Christine, yes.
(28:58):
Thank you.
Marky Post, Christine.
Dan had saved her life becausehe had in his pocket a guide to
the Heimlich maneuver.
And one of the things on isremove restrictive clothing.
And she's wearing a trench coat,and underneath he's removed her
shirt and bra, and he has it.
And Christine's like, Thank you,you saved my life.
And Harry says to her, He gropedyou.
(29:20):
And Christine is very gratefuland says, Like, how can I ever
repay you?
And he says, Sleep with me.
Gross.
It is.
And so the entire episode is hersaying, Absolutely not, I'm not
gonna do that.
And he's trying different thingsto convince her, like, I well, I
saved your life.
You owe me.
(29:41):
It's disgusting.
And she feels guilty.
Ugh.
And so she finally says, Allright, fine.
And so he gets a hotel room.
And there is a like a funnymoment where he is in the hotel
room.
There is a like the like themanager of the hotel comes up
(30:03):
with champagne that he'sordered.
Dan says, like, this is going tobe a night of paradise.
And Christine walks in and goes,like, all right, let's get this
over with.
It's gross, but the dichotomybetween like from the point of
view of the hotel manager isfunny.
(30:26):
The rest of the courtroom showup one by one to try to, like uh
um Harry describes them as we'rethe sexual SWAT team to try to
interrupt things.
There also happens to be a manon the balcony trying to commit
suicide, excuse me, trying todie by suicide because he's a
38-year-old virgin.
(30:49):
Which Harry says, no one wouldknow if you didn't tell people.
And then Bull comes in and says,What's the virgin on the balcony
doing?
Um, just by looking at him.
Christine yells at everyonesaying, like, you think that I
can't make my own decisions, andif I want to sleep with a sleazy
man, that's my choice.
So get out of here.
(31:11):
I have made this decision.
It is my choice.
Get out of here.
So they leave.
It's Harry, Mac, Roz, and Bull.
She has put on like a moo mooand like a hairnet and like a
mask on her, like a poorcleansing mask.
(31:31):
He gets her to take that stuffoff, and she's just wearing
jeans and a t-shirt underneath,and he's like kissing her neck,
and then he's like, Oh, I can'tdo it.
And she's like, I knew it, Iknew you couldn't.
He's like, Yeah, I respect you.
That's why you can't.
And they have this conversation,and she's like, I knew you're a
decent person underneath the allof that.
(31:54):
And they have this conversation,he's like, but I will hit on you
every day for the rest of yourlife.
And they have it's this weirdtension where she's like, I know
that you're a decent person, Iknow that you respect me, and
like I know, and like that'sthat's why I will continue to be
(32:16):
civil to you, or something likethat.
And he's like, Well, what aboutyou know, the Yahoos we work
with?
And she's like, What happensbetween the two of us is our
business.
And then she goes to open thedoor and they're all standing
there with their ears.
Listening.
So that was one episode.
There was another episode I sawwhere there was a woman played
by Fran Dresher, who is in courtbecause there was a man caught
(32:40):
peeping at her, and she's likevery buttoned up, and she is the
man is he's like the gas meterguy, and he claims that she was
putting on a show for him whileshe was getting out of the
shower.
She is like, with her FranDresher voice, like the high
nasally voice, was like, youknow, there's no propriety these
(33:03):
days.
And this also grossed me out.
Harry says, like, well, there'sno proof one way or the other,
case dismissed.
Ugh.
And so Fran Dresher, I don'tremember the character's name,
Fran Dresher goes to Dan's,like, there's no justice in this
world anymore.
And I don't remember what hesays.
A few minutes pass, she comesback and she has put on a much
(33:25):
lower, sultry voice, and she'slike coming on to him and was
like, Can we go someplace morecomfortable or something like
that?
And they end up in a closet andshe smacks him.
This happens twice.
At the end, we find out she hassplit personality disorder,
(33:47):
which, you know, was a very 80spunchline.
And the last frame of theepisode, Harry says, like, he
fell for it twice.
He's not gonna fall for it athird time about her.
He is hog tied with his tie inhis mouth on his desk in the
courtroom.
Roz has a Polaroid and says, Whowants a copy?
(34:08):
and takes a photo of him, andthat's what it ends on.
So that's what I mean, where heis the butt of the joke.
It's really, I don't know whereto land with his character.
Because John Larquette is acharming actor.
Like he is able to thread theneedle of saying these sleazy
(34:31):
lines and not making meabsolutely hate him, even though
they are despicable.
Right.
40 years on, they're like waymore despicable than they were
when they were written.
Right.
But I still was able to likefind him kind of likable.
(34:52):
I don't know how he was able todo that.
Now, some of that is the is thefact that Reinhold Wiege made it
clear that he is not someone toaspire to be, and made it clear
that he is gross, he is icky,and the only thing that makes
him forgivable is that he doeshave a court of decency.
(35:14):
But there is still that sense oflike he respects Christine Marky
Post, but is that because herespects her because she's a
lawyer and smart?
Or is it because he respectswomen?
It's not because he respectswomen, right?
He respects certain women.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
Yeah.
And how much of the work of youas the viewer liking him is
actually done by the Christinecharacter, right?
Like, I don't buy it that hewould say, No, I can't do this,
I respect you.
I don't buy it.
I mean, like we all chose thebear even before we knew about
(35:51):
the so-called rape academy thatthe news just broke recently,
where people men were liketeaching each other to do this
to their wives.
Like, I just that's the fantasyis that a man that would behave
like that publicly would havethat moment of stopping himself.
SPEAKER_01 (36:14):
Our very first episode was Twilight, right?
And, you know, Edward is thefantasy, you know, like I love
you too much to kill you, eventhough I could.
And now I do think I think thatReinhold Wiege is, and I don't
(36:34):
know if he's still alive or not.
I haven't I didn't check that,but I think that he is an
optimist.
I think that he believes in thegoodness of the human heart.
Because, as I said, everyepisode is kind of a very
special episode.
Every episode has heart becauseevery episode has like this
moral to it that, like, don'tjudge a book by its cover.
(36:56):
Every episode is about how Danhas a core of decency.
There really are like there's away to fix a marriage that seems
broken.
Like your friend is still yourfriend, even if they are not the
gender that you thought theywere.
SPEAKER_00 (37:13):
Even like the relationship between Roz and
Bull, who like don't look likethey go together, but there's a
core of like real mutualaffection between those two.
SPEAKER_01 (37:24):
Well, and then the just the fact that Harry is the
judge, I did watch the pilotepisode just to kind of get
reacquainted.
How did they frame it?
SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
And like initially, all of the like professionals in
the courtroom who are waitingfor him are horrified by his way
of dealing with things becausehe's young and unorthodox and
doing things completely unlikeany other judge.
And it's like, but you knowwhat?
He does have a way of handlingthings that could be better than
(37:58):
the old way.
And, you know, like he islooking to try to do the best
thing for the people in hiscourt and not just get through
the docket.
So, like, there is this sunnycenter to this show.
There's a reason why Larquettekept winning Emmys.
(38:21):
He is like, he's a really goodactor, and he manages to carry
that sense of like I'm a betterperson than I pretend to be.
It just doesn't representreality.
Yeah.
(38:41):
On the one hand, I don't need mysitcoms to represent reality.
Right.
On the other, as aneight-year-old watching TV, do I
want to be taking in the ideathat men are going to police
themselves?
SPEAKER_00 (39:00):
Right.
Right.
Even it wasn't a show made forchildren.
So we happen to watch it when wewere eight and eleven, but like
it wasn't made for kids.
No.
But even still, even as a, youknow, even the 23-year-olds and
the 33-year-olds watching it,like, yeah, I as a society, we
(39:22):
want to believe not all men.
And so we have these examples.
But the thing is, like, most, Imean, not until it's no men,
then we have to actually treatit as all men.
That's actually the it's notmost, I'm not even saying most,
but until it's no men, likethose of us who will be the
(39:44):
victims of that behavior need tobehave as though it's all men.
Yeah.
And that's the thing that thenot all men folks don't
understand.
Right?
It's not that, like, oh, I havemy feelings hurt because you
judge me.
Like, I didn't judge you.
I don't know you.
But like, people who look likeyou hurt people who look like
(40:06):
me.
SPEAKER_01 (40:07):
I actually I want to push back a little bit on the it
wasn't for kids.
It wasn't written for kids.
But it wasn't not written forkids.
Like it wasn't specifically forus, but it was a fan, it was a
show that I think Reinhold Wiegeknew families would be watching.
There were kids in the show, andlike there it was every episode
(40:28):
was a very special episode.
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
That so that's fair.
And also, like you write to anaudience, and obviously there
are secondary audiences, butyou're writing to an audience,
and he was not writing tochildren.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (40:42):
And so, like, if I were Reinhold Wiege, to a
certain extent, I would be like,okay, you guys watched it when
you came home from school, butlike that's kind of on your
parents, that's not on me.
SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
The only reason why I'm pushing back on this is
because I feel like there is akind of kiddie wholesomeness to
this that Reinhold Weige didintentionally.
SPEAKER_00 (41:01):
On purpose.
Yeah.
All the more so than your pointabout like if the picture that
we have of like men behaving insleazy, frankly predatory manner
is that actually there's a coreof goodness underneath of that.
Yes.
Yes.
That's dangerous.
Yes.
That's actually dangerous.
(41:22):
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, the show recognized thathe was an exception.
That was kind of what was like,that's why we don't hate him, is
because he was an exception.
But like your brain doesn't pickup the exception.
It just picks up what's in frontof what's in front of us, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
Yeah.
That's what's really tough towatch.
And like that's part of likehe's a trope.
Like the so many comedies havekind of Barney and Barney and
How I Met Your Mother.
Yeah.
I was pleased to see that thathe was the way that Weige
handled it was by making him thebutt of the joke.
(42:00):
And that helped me contextualizethe show and why I found it so
funny as a kid.
So, like, okay, that makessense.
And some of it was like, I thinkWeige was skewering the like
yuppies of the 80s.
Dan started off in the first twoseasons.
He was more like of aconservative snob who was like
(42:22):
really into money and like greedis good type stuff.
And he like over time, theywrote him to be like he was kind
of like a little bit into womensleazy, but like the he
transformed more into the sleazycharacter who was greedy also.
But like he always wore thethree-piece suits.
I don't know if you rememberthat.
Some of this I think wasskewering that aspect of 80s
(42:45):
culture, especially in puttingit next to Harry Anderson, or
excuse me, Harry Stone, who worejeans under his robes.
So there's that aspect of it aswell.
Because I think Weige was tryingalso to make it clear that this
was not something to aspire to.
SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
That culture difference, that culture
contrast, even like the I'm aMac and I'm a PC compartion that
came later, but Harry was a Mac.
SPEAKER_01 (43:12):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Dan Fielding was a PC.
Yes.
Yes.
That's part of like with DanFielding, like that's part of
what I'm talking about, likewith giving with one hand and
then taking with the other.
SPEAKER_02 (43:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:23):
The moment with that the friend, where like that
really was kind of a veryprogressive episode in the like
late 80s to have an entireepisode about a trans woman and
have a very conservative personaccept her as his best friend.
(43:44):
There was quite a bit of likecasual homophobia that was also
kind of not.
So in the episode that I sawwith the man who wanted to jump
off the balcony because he was a38-year-old virgin, the They
kept joking that, like, oh, if Isave your life, you have to
sleep with me.
So there was a point where Harryalmost tripped over something
(44:06):
and Roz like pulled him back andsaid, like, oh, I just saved
your life.
Now you have to sleep with me.
So like that was another likerepetitive joke.
And Dan with Cyril is the nameof the man who's threatening to
jump.
And Dan is like yelling at him,like, oh, if you're gonna do it,
just do it.
And the man like goes to fallbackwards and Dan grabs his
shirt and pulls him in.
(44:28):
Cyril goes, You just saved mylife.
And so Harry goes, Well, now youhave to sleep with him.
And the man like is thinkingabout it.
He's like, Well, maybe.
And and Dan's like, no, no,that's not how this works.
And it's this tension becauseit's kind of a little bit
(44:52):
homophobic, but kind of a littlebit progressive for the 80s.
SPEAKER_00 (44:58):
Right.
Like maybe that's why Cyril wasa virgin because he's not
actually straight.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:02):
There's an episode I didn't see, but I remember
another one that, like, this iswhat I think back on when I
think about the casualhomophobia I remember from
childhood.
There was an episode where,because Dan was part of like not
Merchant Marines, but like thewhat's the military you do on
the weekends?
National Guard?
Yeah, National Guard, thank you.
He's part of the National Guard,but he never thought he'd be
(45:22):
deployed.
They come to get him, and he'slike, I gotta get out of this.
So he hires Phil, the likehomeless guy, lackey.
Who runs errands for him, runserrands for him to pretend to be
his lover because at the time.
Don't ask, don't tell.
It was before Don't Ask, Don'tTell.
Oh.
(45:42):
It was just straight, like ifyou not straight.
The opposite of that.
There was no homosexualityallowed whatsoever.
And it backfires because he wasgoing to be sent to this jungle
with a like super gorgeous womanand his uniform was like a
speedo that was junglecamouflage.
(46:04):
And so again, Dan is the butt ofthe joke.
He is the one who's being madefun of because he is hoist by
his own petard by hiring Phil topretend to be his gay lover and
like he's missing out onsomething that he would actually
really want to do.
And I just I can't tease it outbecause like there's not really
(46:27):
anything said about the armybeing homophobic in that.
There's not really anything saidabout how like fucked up it is
that the army would then belike, no.
SPEAKER_00 (46:40):
Also, like whatever this deployment was, I don't
care what the uniform, like itwasn't a sex trip.
That's not what National Guardor Army Reservists are doing.
Yeah.
Even if it is in a likedesirable, I'm putting that in
quotations, location.
Like, yeah.
So there's like I mean, andyeah, whatever, it was a joke.
(47:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:01):
But it's yeah, it's kind of silly.
It's all a joke.
It's all at Dan's expense.
It does not examine thehomophobia.
Anything really.
Yeah.
It does skewer Dan's willingnessto use homophobia to his
(47:22):
advantage, but it doesn'texamine the broader homophobia
of the army.
It doesn't examine the broaderhomophobia of our society.
SPEAKER_00 (47:31):
Yeah.
So even the him using it to getout of something, like there's
something kind of interestingthere because his reputation,
his sexual reputation isobviously important to him.
Right?
That's the episode that youtalked about that you told me
about, where he and Christinedon't end up actually sleeping
together.
It's his reputation that shesays, Well, what happened
(47:52):
between us is our business.
She was gonna let them let therest of the cast believe that
they had slept together.
That was her kindness to him.
Because his sexual reputationmatters.
And so there actually issomething really significant and
maybe out of character withinthe context of the 1980s.
(48:15):
Like that's the progressive movein some ways.
SPEAKER_01 (48:18):
Except that it's also made clear that he's a
coward.
SPEAKER_00 (48:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:21):
He's willing to, he's willing to sacrifice his
reputation to protect his life.
SPEAKER_00 (48:25):
More complicated than I expected, honestly, when
we hit record, when I wasremembering this character in my
head.
All right, let me see if I canreflect back to you quickly.
So, Nightcourt, this TV show,this sitcom, very funny.
Because of slapstick andphysical comedy, because of like
the repetition and sort ofiteration of the same joke over
and over again.
(48:46):
One of the things this sitcomhad was heart, is the way that
you talked about it.
Every episode was a very specialepisode because it had this sort
of moral to it that youdescribed as sunny, as optimism,
as like Reinhold Wiege making itsomething that like maybe
families could consume together.
(49:07):
Although there's some pretty notfamily-friendly stuff in it from
my memory.
Notably Dan Fielding, sexualpredator, yes, but also kind of
a mensch in disguise.
I don't know.
Can he be a mensch if it's indisguise?
Probably.
Some of the way that kind ofshows up is by making him the
(49:31):
butt of the joke.
And so we see that he's amensch.
We we have the show tell us thathis reprehensible behavior has
consequences because he ends uphogtight on his desk or
whatever.
But there's so there's like youdescribed it as giving with one
hand and taking with the other.
And that is in particular withsort of his behavior and
(49:54):
misogyny, also the transphobia,also the homophobia.
Fat phobia, not so much giving,really just taking.
We didn't talk about specificexamples, but you named that.
We also named TV writing thenversus now, based on how we
consume.
So then each episode really wasa standalone.
If you missed an episode, youcould pick right back up.
(50:15):
And now seasons are meant tohave much more of an arc than
they once did.
And that you described likewondering if that was freeing
for the writers to a certainextent, because they only had to
worry about the 24 minutes rightin front of them.
But that also means there's likecontinuity errors when we watch
things the way we watch themnow, which is to binge them all
at once.
(50:36):
I think lastly, I think the showcontributed or traded on this
sort of idea of New York in the1980s as being like really kind
of a shit show.
And you named that by placingthis in court at night in New
York in the 80s, in some ways itwas really a smart writing move
(50:59):
because it's such a ripe groundfor like interesting, kooky,
weirdo characters who comethrough that, like you're like,
as a viewer, you're like, Yep, Ibelieve it.
It's New York and it's nightcourt.
Like, so the boring cases wentto daytime court.
What I forget.
SPEAKER_01 (51:16):
The cast altogether, like every single member of the
cast, it's a really good, like,group dynamic because each
member of the cast bringssomething different.
And so it's a like a workplacecomedy where you have that.
Like you always have like thatwith a workplace comedy.
And it took them a little whilebecause there's only three cast
(51:37):
members who are there fromseason one through season nine,
Harry Bull and Dan.
But they did a really good jobof creating this cohesive group
of people who are all weird orlike kookier in some way, but
that they make this reallyinteresting group of people that
can like kind of work off ofeach other and work off of the
kooky characters who comethrough.
(51:59):
It's just very satisfying as aworkplace comedy.
unknown (52:03):
All right.
SPEAKER_00 (52:03):
Well, next week I'm gonna bring you my deep thoughts
about an American tale, whichwas the Don Bluth film that
after I watched The Land BeforeTime, I was like, oh, I should
have done that one first.
So I'm circling back to this DonBluth animated film for next
week.
Nice.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(52:23):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(52:44):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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