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I think we've all arrived at a very special place. Spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.
Before the 2003 blockbuster film Pirates of the Caribbean was the pop culture juggernaut that spawned more sequels than most pirates can count on one hand, it was the first movie Emily went to see with her spouse in their early courtship. This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily brings her film analysis to what should be nothing more than a ridiculous piece of pop culture:
It's a big budget action adventure movie, based on an amusement park ride, starring an intentionally uglified Johnny Depp, channeling Keith Richards, to play an infamous pirate. It's no wonder Michael Eisner worried about the mental health of director Gore Verbinski for letting Depp do what he wanted.
But for all its silliness, Pirates offers tightly-written storytelling, professionals taking their craft seriously but not themselves, and a scene-stealing and pop culture changing performance by Depp. How we think of pirates has been completely altered because of Depp's portrayal of Jack Sparrow, which reinforces what a creative talent the actor is, even if he seems like a complete creep IRL.
Yo-ho, yo-ho, a podcaster's life for me! Grab a tot of rum and listen in!
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deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, pop culture, film, film analysis, mental health, storytelling, analyzing film tropes, classic movies, comedy, cultural commentary, movie reviews, movies, romance, feminism, women, gore verbinski, johnny depp, keira knightley, orlando bloom
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
So that both and nuance of like it can be fair to
fight unfair if we're trying toprotect my own life or protect
other people.
And you can be both a goodperson and someone who breaks
the rules, is actually, I think,kind of a remarkably nuanced
(00:20):
take for a blockbuster summerfilm based on a ride at Disney
World.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 2003 Gore Verbinski filmPirates of the Caribbean with my
sister, Tracy Guy Decker, andwith you.
(01:09):
Let's dive in.
Tracy, I have no idea if you'veseen this movie or not.
I have seen this movie.
Okay.
So tell me what's in your headabout Pirates of the Caribbean.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Johnny's Epp in a lot of eyeliner, which I found
very sexy because I always likemeant an eyeliner.
God, yes.
And kind of like swaggeringaround, like sort of drunk, but
also like wise somehow in myimagination, like in his weird
drunkenness.
Kira Knightley looking amazing.
(01:42):
Actually, just pretty people ingeneral.
Orlando Bloom is also in myhead.
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
Like the first thing I think ofwhen I think of pirates is
Johnny Depp's eyeliner.
So I am consistent.
I like men and eye makeup.
Yes.
Nothing if not consistent.
Yes.
So yeah, that's what's in myhead.
But somebody, why are we talkingabout pirates today?
(02:04):
What's what's at stake for you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
So this was the first film that my spouse and I
saw together when we weredating.
It came out in July of 2003.
My spouse and I met July 7th,2003.
So we'd only been dating like aweek and a half.
I don't know.
Oh, wow.
So it was like a first or seconddate?
Yeah.
It was very early on.
(02:26):
And I don't think you would haveseen it if I hadn't said, I'd
like to see this movie.
Because he especially that likemen in eyeliner.
Well, no, he doesn't like men ineyeliner.
He also tends to be like, oh,well, it's something everybody
likes.
I'm going to be contrary.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
You know, I've known him almost as long as you have,
and that tracks.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
So the other thing, this movie very strangely
reminds me of Alanis Morissette,because at the time when we
first met, my spouse was workingfor a job where he had to change
clothes.
And he had come from, we saw iton a weekday, and he had come
from work and his shirt was oninside out and backwards when he
(03:13):
met Kib to meet me.
And so we bought the tickets.
We went and I was like, Yourshirt's on inside out and
backwards.
He's like, oh, so it is.
And I was thinking like he wasgonna go into the men's room and
change it.
And he's like, popcorn.
And we went in.
And so I was thinking the LannisMoore set song, your sweater's
on backwards and inside out.
And you say, Ha, howappropriate.
unknown (03:34):
Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
And it's okay.
So just a little background ofhow my mind works.
Okay.
unknown (03:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
All of that.
So there's something at stakebecause it's associated with
your the beginnings of my earlycourtship.
Yes.
Courtship, yeah.
All right.
So give me some postcards at thedestination.
What do you want to talk aboutwhen we get into it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
So this movie, if you recall, was an unexpected
hit.
A lot of people were like, it'sbased on a ride at Disney World.
WTF.
I didn't even remember thatthat's where it came from.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
You're right.
It was like if they made it's asmall world into a movie.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Yeah.
Right.
People were like, what is thisgonna be?
This is gonna be ridiculous.
Why why why are they throwing somuch money at this?
This is so stupid.
So nobody expected anything goodof it.
And then they got big namesassociated with it.
Now, Kira Knightley was, Ithink, 17 or 18.
So she was not a big name yet.
(04:40):
And then, same thing withOrlando Bloom.
He was an emerging star.
Johnny Depp was already a star.
Johnny Depp was established.
He was about 40, but he madeweird films.
He did, that's true.
Had Bendit Like Beckham come outyet?
Oh, it was yeah the year before.
Yes.
So Bendit Like Beckham had comeout, but Jeffrey Rush was also
(05:01):
associated with it.
He's Captain Barbosa.
So he's like a well-known andserious actor.
And then Jonathan Price, whoplays Kira Knightley's father,
was also in it.
And he another serious actor.
And so people are like, what isthis?
So that was part of the reasonwhy I was interested in it.
(05:23):
And this gets to one of thethings that I like, which is
people taking the craftseriously, but not themselves,
which is very much what thisfilm is.
And that is actually why I lovethis film and don't particularly
care for the franchise.
It just started becoming tryingto milk the cash cow.
Sure.
(05:44):
This film is very tightlywritten, although I think the
film itself could be, they couldcut probably 20 or 30 minutes of
runtime and not lose anything.
But it's really well written.
It's just part of the reason whyit did better than expected.
Then Johnny Depp, who I hisacting choices I respect, the
person himself I do not.
(06:04):
And I'm gonna want to talk aboutthat.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
The way that he played Captain Jack Sparrow came
about because he describedpirates as rock stars of the
18th century, and then he basedhis performance on Keith
Richards and stole the show.
Totally.
And that is right there.
If he had played it morestraight, or if they had had
like they were talking aboutHugh Jackman and other stars
(06:27):
playing Captain Jack Sparrow,movie would have flopped.
Right.
Would not have worked.
And so talking about what itmeans that pirates are rock
stars, and how that's kind ofoffensive in both directions.
So I want to talk about that.
One of the things that Iappreciate about the film is
that it actually does a reallygood job of like the both and
(06:50):
kind of nuance that we talkabout, because they're
consistently saying thatBootstrap Bill, who is Orlando
Bloom's father, was a good manand a pirate, that those are not
opposites.
So I appreciate that there isthe this understanding of
there's more complexity thanjust good person or pirate.
(07:11):
You can be one thing or another.
I want to talk about how thisfilm feels very American in a
lot of ways, and how that mightfeel weird for the British
actors in it, because theyrepresent the rule followers who
are kind of ridiculous and getbested by the more American and
(07:33):
for the most part the Americanactors who play the good pirates
who break the rules and win.
And then I want to talk a littlebit about the performative
feminism that we saw a lot of inthe early 2000s that annoyed me
even at the time.
So that's kind of where we'regoing with this.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (07:50):
Well, since all I remember is Johnny Depp's
eyeliner, remind me of the plotof this movie made based on a
ride at Disney World.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't want to go through thewhole thing.
So I'm gonna tell you what's whothe characters are, and then
kind of a basic synopsis.
So the straight characters,meaning the ones who, you know,
just are could be in anyswashbuckling romance, is we've
got Miss Elizabeth Swan, playedby Kira Knightley, who we meet
(08:21):
for the first time in thecrossing from England to Port
Royal in the Caribbean whenshe's about 10 years old.
She is the daughter of GovernorSwan, played by Jonathan Price.
During the crossing, she sees aboy who is floating on a
shipwreck, who is also makingthe crossing from England.
The boy is Will Turner, who willbe played by Orlando Bloom as an
(08:44):
adult.
He is going to become theapprentice to a blacksmith.
When she sees him, he has a goldmedallion around his neck that
she thinks means he's a pirate.
And so she's afraid that he willbe hanged because that's just
what they do in Port Royal.
They hang pirates.
So they have had an affinity foreach other since childhood, but
(09:06):
because he's just a blacksmith'sapprentice and she is the
daughter of the governor, theycan never actually be together.
There is also Captain nowCommodore Norrington, who is the
military leader of the fleet ofships in Port Royal, who is in
love with Elizabeth and wants tomarry her.
(09:28):
And that's basically everyone inPort Royal that you need to
know.
On the pirate side, we've gotCaptain Jack Sparrow.
He is the former captain of theBlack Pearl, which is supposed
to be the fastest ship in theCaribbean.
The Intercept is the fastestship in Port Royal.
The only ship that can beat theIntercept is the Black Pearl.
(09:48):
Ten years prior to the events ofthe film, Jack was on his way to
Ilam de Muerta, the Isle ofDeath, to find the treasure of
Cortez that had been cursed.
It was cursed treasure that theAztecs gave to Cortez to try to
get him to stop killing them.
(10:09):
When he gave the location to hisfirst mate Barbosa, and Barbosa
then led a mutiny and left Jackon an island with just a single
pistol with a shot in it,because there's not much you can
do with it except kill yourselfafter several days of starving
to death.
(10:30):
And then Barbosa and his crew,including Bootstrap Bill, Will
Turner's father, went on tosteal the treasure, which turned
out to be cursed, which madethem basically zombies.
They can never feel pleasure orpain when they eat.
The food turns to ash in theirmouths, the drink doesn't slick
their thirst.
(10:51):
No pleasurable company can slicktheir lust.
And they cannot die.
And moonlight shows what theyare, they appear as skeletons in
the moonlight.
So they have spent the 10 yearssince they realized this trying
to find all of the medallions.
There were 882 of them that theyhad spent once they realized
(11:12):
what had happened, and thengiving up their blood, putting
it back where they found it.
But they had, because BootstrapBill had been uncomfortable with
the mutiny, they had put himoverboard, which means the poor
man is a zombie in the sea.
Like at the bottom of the ocean.
At the bottom of the ocean,yeah.
(11:33):
So he's like constantlydrowning, but not.
That sounds like Greek tragedytype stuff.
It's awful.
Because he had sent hismedallion to his son.
And that's the one thatElizabeth took off of Will.
So they have been searching forthat last one.
And because Bootstrap is at thebottom of the sea, they need to
(11:54):
find his child to get the bloodfrom his child.
They knew he had a kid, but theydidn't know anything else about
his kid.
So at the onset of the story,Elizabeth has a dream about the
day she met Will.
She goes and finds themedallion.
It is dusty, so it's clear shedoesn't look at it that often.
(12:16):
And she's interrupted and putsit on her neck to hide it when
her father comes in.
This becomes important becauseshe later falls into the ocean
and the medallion sets out,sends out a pulse because and it
calls to the cursed piratesbecause they can feel it because
it's in the water.
(12:36):
So they come and siege, likeattack Port Royal the same day
Jack Sparrow arrives in PortRoyal.
Jack rescues Elizabeth from thewater.
And even though he's justrescued the governor's daughter,
because he's the pirate, they'regoing to kill him.
He then threatens her to get outof being almost killed and goes
(13:00):
to the blacksmith to break hischains, where he gets into a
fight with Will Turner, one ofmany.
He's subdued again and is put injail where they plan to hang him
in the morning.
It's overnight when the BlackPearl arrives.
The pirates come and kidnapElizabeth.
She tells Barbosa her name isElizabeth Turner.
(13:22):
And in the meantime, Norringtonhas proposed to her, but she
hasn't given an answer becauseshe had fallen in the water.
Because she was wearing a corsetand couldn't breathe.
So they take her with them.
She knows they want themedallion.
They take her with them and shedoesn't realize that they're not
going to put her back on shore.
And she learns that they arecursed and with the skeleton
(13:42):
thing and stuff like that,because they look normal,
normal, unless the moonlight'sshining on them.
Will goes to Norrington, islike, we have to go after her.
And Norrington brushes him off.
So Will goes to Jack Sparrow andsays, That's your ship, the
Black Pearl.
You know where they're going.
Help me.
And Jack is uninterested untilWill tells him his name is Will
(14:06):
Turner.
And Jack doesn't say so, butmakes it clear, like, he's like,
oh, Will is short for William,I'm sure, right?
Name for your father.
And like, so they do thisdelightful maneuver to steal the
Intercept by stealing theDauntless, which is the other
(14:27):
main ship, and then getting thewhole entire Navy to get the
Intercept to come after them.
And then they take the Interceptbecause they would not have been
able to get the Dauntless out ofthe harbor, just the two of
them.
And then they have disabled theDauntless, so it can't come
after them.
It's a delightful plan.
They then go to Tortuga to raisea crew and then go to La Muerta,
(14:53):
where they find Barbosa and thecrew with Elizabeth.
They return the medallion andjust cut her palm.
It's just a little bit of bloodbecause she's afraid that
they're thinking they're goingto kill her.
And it doesn't do anythingbecause she's not actually Bill
Turner's child.
Will ends up betraying JackSparrow and returning to the
(15:15):
Intercept with Elizabeth.
Jack tells Barbosa that he knowswhere Bootstrap's child is and
who he is, and is trying tomanipulate and work his way into
getting what he wants.
The Pearl chases after theIntercept.
They end up firing on them.
(15:35):
And the Pearl wins the fight,and Will figures out what the
everything is and basically getsthem to release Elizabeth by
saying, I will kill myself inthe water so that you can never
lift the curse if you don'trelease her.
And so they do, but sincethey're pirates, they do it the
(15:58):
way that they double cross.
And so they have her walk theplank to the same island where
Jack had been marooned 10 yearsbefore.
And so they also maroon Jackthere.
And they have also sunk theintercept.
We finally find out how Jackescaped because it was a big
mystery this whole time.
People have different storiesabout how he escaped, and
(16:19):
they're all each one is moreridiculous than the last.
We finally find out it's theisland had been a cache for rum
runners.
They left rum there.
He'd been there for three dayswhen the rum runners came by and
he negotiated a passage.
But the rum runners don't workanymore because Captain
Norrington has run them out ofbusiness.
So they're stuck there.
(16:41):
So Elizabeth encourages Jack toget so drunk he passes out, and
then she burns all of the rum.
So it makes a huge fire.
And because her father andNorrington are looking for her,
they arrive.
Her father and Norrington refuseto go rescue Will.
And so she says to Norrington,please do this for me as a
(17:03):
wedding present.
And so he agrees.
They go to Illa Muerta, and JackSparrow says, like, here's how
we can do this.
And he is again playing bothsides.
He goes in alone and suggeststhat Norrington stays out and
they will fire on the BlackPearls crew as they come out.
(17:24):
But what he doesn't realize isthey are going to instead take
the boats, they walk underwaterand climb up onto the Dauntless
and attack that way.
Meanwhile, Jack has made itclear to Will you wait for the
right moment.
And Jack steals one of the goldpieces.
So he becomes cursed as well.
(17:44):
So he's immortal.
And so he and Barbosa end upfighting.
Elizabeth comes in and ishelping Will.
And at the exact right moment,Will and Jack return their
pieces, cut and cut themselves.
And so that Jack is able to killBarbosa.
With that one shot, with the oneshot, which he had been saving
(18:06):
for 10 years.
And in the final scene, theyhave brought Jack back to Port
Royal and they are hanging him.
Will comes to see whereNorrington, the governor, and
Elizabeth are standing.
He tells Elizabeth, I shouldhave told you this every day
from the day I met you.
I love you.
(18:27):
And then he goes to rescue Jack.
He throws a sword, which we knowhe can do, so that Jack can
stand on it so that he doesn'tfall and cuts him down and they
fight their way out, but thenthey are surrounded because
they're surrounded.
Elizabeth stands with them tosay, like, you're gonna have to
kill me too.
And of course, the governor'slike, No, no, no, protect my
(18:48):
daughter.
Basically, they allow Jack toget away, and Elizabeth says, I
want to be with Will, and thegovernor gives his blessing, and
we see Jack meet up with theblack pearl, and he resumes his
captaincy of his ship.
And that's the end of the movie.
Okay.
(19:08):
Relatively concise.
It's pretty good for us.
SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
So if the zombie pirates can walk on the ocean
floor, why didn't Bootstrap Billjust walk to land?
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
I think they did something to him.
I don't remember.
Like but it is explained.
It's not in this film.
Okay.
Cool.
All right.
So where do you want to start?
Johnny Depp's portrayal.
Okay.
For anyone who wasn't aroundbefore then, that's not what
(19:43):
pirates were like.
Like now when you see pirates,like you always see pirates like
that now.
But that wasn't what pirateswere like before then.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Do you mean in like popular culture?
Yeah.
Or do you mean like okay, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
So, like, just meaning like if you go to like
Spirit Halloween and you seelike a generic pirate costume,
it will look like Jack Sparrow.
That will look like JackSparrow.
And that is what we think of aspirate in pop culture now.
And then his weird way oftalking and acting and all of
(20:23):
that.
And like the eye makeup, that isall part of like what Johnny
Depp brought, or the peoplearound this movie.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
With Johnny Depp.
It was Johnny Depp.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
Like, like the shit and his hair was all here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
It wasn't like a costume.
Well, I mean, like, he wanted tomake he was like, let me do
weird.
I want this to be weird.
And like he and Gorb Verbinskihad to fight for it.
Because like Eisner, who was thehead of Disney at the time, was
like, what the fuck is this?
Why are we doing this?
And they were worried becausethere was a movie based on a
(20:59):
ride in 2002 called like BearCountry, or I don't really know
that ride, that flopped.
Everybody hated it.
And so they were like worried.
And then Johnny Depp comes inbeing all Johnny Depp.
And they're like, who?
What?
Why?
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
So And Pirates, like, I think of Captain Hook as
like the, you know, which I whowas much more formal.
Like, I mean, Hook is like fromthis children's depiction, but
like there was a formality and aruthlessness, which I think we
get in the other pirates,Barbosa, but like Depp, I mean,
(21:38):
in some ways, in my mind, likeDepp made possible our flag
means death.
Oh, yes.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's based on true events.
Yeah.
But like the way that we receiveCaptain Steed and even
Blackbeard in our flag meansdeath, like, I think we need
like we, the broadest cultural.
(22:00):
We needed Depp's Jack Sparrow tolike open us up to receiving
these like weird andtouchy-feely, even though
they're based on real people.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah.
And like, now some of it is likethe other aspect of this was
like part of the reason why itwas expected to flop was because
pirate movies didn't do well.
Like they they used to, like theErrol Flynn era.
Uh-huh.
But in the early 2000s, that'snot where we were.
Yeah.
And like we hadn't had piratemovies that did well since like
(22:32):
the 50s, maybe.
Like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
I mean, there's Pirates of Penzance and like all
of that, but Oh, but that was abut Pirates of Penzance is a is
a spoof, right?
Taking the idea of a piratedecently seriously.
Yeah.
Like not since like mutiny onthe bounty.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
And then the other thing about Captain Hook is that
it's very sanitized.
Hook is, yeah.
Hook is, yeah.
Whereas these pirates are dirty.
Because that was the other thingthat Eisner objected to.
Johnny Depp had like gold capsin his teeth, and he's like,
What are you doing to yourteeth?
And he's like, I'm a pirate.
Same thing with like the braidsin his beard and stuff like
(23:14):
that.
And like if you look at hishands, they are gross.
Like grimy nails and stuff.
Grimy nails and yeah.
And similar, like now, the thingis, if you look, if I don't know
how recently you've been to thePirates of the Caribbean ride.
I mean, it was with you in the80s.
Okay.
So I was there just last year.
(23:35):
There is some like there's somegrittiness to the pirates, but
it's still like it's campiness.
Uh-huh.
And like, this is certainlycampy.
Yeah.
But you do feel you feel thegrime.
So and that when I say I canrespect the choices that Johnny
(23:56):
Depp makes as an actor to someextent.
It was another Gore Vrabinsky uhmovie that flopped where um Depp
played Tonto in The Lone Ranger.
Yeah, that's a bad look.
I have trouble respecting that.
But the fact that Depp took hiscraft seriously, but not at all
(24:17):
himself.
It's pretty great.
He made a character that has isiconic to the point where a
hundred years from now peopleare not going to recognize where
it came from that this is whatwe think of when we think of
pirates.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Right.
That is cool.
SPEAKER_01 (24:34):
That's really, really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Yeah.
Let's see.
Can we stay here?
Because the postcard you gave mewas Depp saying pirates are rock
stars of the 18th century.
And your response is that'sinsulting in both directions.
Tell me why.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
So the idea that pirates are the rock stars of
the 18th century.
Well, first of all, a pirate islike we have this idea of a
pirate as a thing.
Whereas, like it's not likeyou're in high school and your
guidance counselor is like, solet's see what kind of career
(25:12):
you want to do.
Similarly, rock star is notsomething you're a guidance
counselor as you go towards.
But piracy is something that youdo in part because of economic
need.
So the idea that pirates are therock stars of the 18th century
is like insulting because it'san economic reality that you
(25:36):
become.
And it's insulting also becauserock stars are aspirational.
And I don't think pirates wereever aspirational.
That's that's insulting.
Like people don't want to bepirates.
Like, why are you saying theyare the rock stars of the 18th
century?
Like, are they the rock stars ofthe 18th century to us now?
Because we are far enoughremoved that we can romanticize
(25:59):
them.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
I don't know.
I'm not a historian of the 18thcentury.
Well, and I'm not sure if that'swhat Johnny Depp was saying.
Like, well, I think what he wassaying that was though that
there was like a notoriety.
This is what I like, yeah.
Just based on you saying it, I'mjust responding to what you you
know, you saying it.
There was a notoriety and uhlike a name recognition, a brand
(26:21):
recognition, you know, likeBlackbeard was the most feared
pirate of like whatever, youknow, that sort of thing, in a
way that like today we mighttalk about the notoriety of rock
stars.
I mean, the difference in I hearthe I actually in what you just
said, I hear the insult insofaras like rock stars are artists
(26:43):
and they gain notoriety becauseof their ability to either
create art or to entertain us,whether or not you like their
art, versus pirates who do whatthey do, as you say, for an
economic necessity.
And also like their notoriety isfor living outside of the kind
of lane, like outside theprescribed lane and making money
(27:09):
as privateers and as merchants,like catch is catch can, as
opposed to sort of like, youknow, these are the ways that
people make money.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yeah.
Now, if we just say it likethat, okay, sure, they are rock
stars.
Notoriety thing.
Well, the notoriety and makingmoney outside of the normal way.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
Well, I was I was actually suggesting, yes, yes.
I was actually suggesting thatmight be a way of saying that's
an insult because like a rockstar cre is creating art and a
pirate is like stealing thingsand selling it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Now, the other thing though is like pirates raped and
pillaged and destroyed.
Like that's the other thing.
Like the reason why pirates werenotorious was because they left
destruction in their wake.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:51):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
And trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (27:52):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
That's insulting.
That's insulting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Yeah.
Although the fact that he choseKeith Richards, I mean, like the
stones were known, but like,weren't they notorious for like
trash in hotel rooms andgroupies and stuff?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
So that's insulting to rock stars.
But then it's also like, in someways, it's insulting to pirates
because the fact that I thinkthat pirates might have just uh
like the known ones, I guess,are not necessarily doing this.
But the ones who are just tryingto survive to survive are not
(28:30):
like the dissolute rock starswho are destroying things and
are like complete assholes tothe unrepentant.
Yeah, yeah.
But then there is, I think,something to like what you're
saying, like, yeah, trashinghotel rooms and like the problem
with the Altamont where theRolling Stones hired Hell's
Angels.
(28:50):
Hell's Angels.
As security and people died.
Yeah.
So like I kind of understandwhere Johnny Depp said that and
where that came from.
And that's, I guess, where myrespect for him as an artist
comes from is he makes thosecreative leaps that most people
will be like, What the fuck areyou talking about, Depp?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
Right.
And by making that leap andmodeling his performance after
Richards, then he's created thisiconic character, as you say,
that informs all pirates thatcome after.
Yes.
All depictions of pirates, Ishould say.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
All depictions.
Yeah.
And like is a delightfulcharacter and uh scene stealing,
charming, funny, hilarious, likejust amazing.
Just an amazing performance thathe got like all kinds of
nominations for.
So, like, essence of creativity.
SPEAKER_03 (29:39):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
And weird as fuck, which is great.
Like it's so great.
So I really appreciate that.
And that again, that's whatelevates this from something
that honestly would haveflopped.
As good as Jeffrey Rush andOrlando Bloom and Kira Knightley
and Jonathan Price and JackDavenport, who plays Norrington,
all of them are great.
(30:01):
Like they are all very goodactors.
But it's just a a dimestoreromance.
Yeah.
With them.
And even with the curse, becauseoriginally they they did not
have the supernatural element.
And the supernatural elementalso, I think, makes this a
better story.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
It changes the stakes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
Yes.
So while we're talking aboutstory, like and and the stakes
of the storytelling, like let'stalk about you, you named that
the the writing is part of, inaddition to Depp's performance,
part of what made this asuccess, when it by all
measures, maybe should have beena flop.
So talk to me about that.
Talk to me about thestorytelling.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
So it's very tidy how it handles things.
So the fact that when we firstthe first scene that we see is
Elizabeth's dream, where she'sremembering the dream is when
she first met Will Turner.
And so what that does is itgives us this exposition that
introduces these characters aschildren and introduces the
(30:57):
medallion, also introduces howPort Royal handles pirates, just
it all of this introduction.
And like the thing is startingwith a dream, starting with a
character waking up is socliche, but it's cliche because
it's effective and it'sefficient.
SPEAKER_00 (31:15):
Also, this is a movie based on a ride.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
Yeah.
When you do a cliche reallywell, it just shivers.
It starts off with like an oceanand fog, and you hear a small
child's voice singing the songfrom the ride.
Yo, ho, yo, ho.
And it's very creepy.
And it's the child playing ChildElizabeth singing it by herself.
(31:41):
So like it sets the tone.
And so that is very efficient.
And what we then do is we seelike her eyes as a child, and
then like a cut to KiraKnightley's eyes as she wakes
up.
And so because she was thinkingabout it, we see her go find the
medallion in a drawer and it'sdusty.
(32:03):
So we know that this is notsomething that she does often.
And it's been a and it's been along time.
It's been a long time.
And not just because she's aged,but just, you know.
Yeah.
So we then also have thetightness of the storytelling
that we've already seen that herfather is overprotective and
kind of overbearing.
(32:24):
And then he knocks and comes inthe door, comes in her bedroom,
like without really giving hertime to hide the medallion
again.
So she puts it on.
We've already established thatwith what she remembers from her
dream.
And he has brought her a gift.
It is a new dress with a corset,because it's the biggest fashion
in London.
They're a little behind thetimes in the Caribbean.
(32:45):
And it's her first corset, andher maids are helping her put it
on.
And she's complaining, likeshe's like, ladies in London
must have learned how not tobreathe.
And she has to wear, she'skeeping the medallion on because
it's the only way to hide itfrom her dad.
And he is telling her thatCaptain Norrington is getting
promoted that day, and that hethinks that he will want to talk
(33:06):
to her as well.
So, like all of this, reallywell done.
Like suggestions about things.
So, and we see, because it's ahot day, we see her during the
ceremony, like fanning herselfand having trouble breathing.
And when Norrington afterwardsasks her to speak, he takes her
(33:26):
to it's this like kind ofbalcony over the water, and it's
way high up.
And she's fanning herself, andhe tells her, like, this is
thrown into stark relief.
This promotion is thrown intostark relief.
What I have not yet achieved.
Marriage to a fine woman, youhave grown to be a fine woman,
Elizabeth.
And like he kind of turns hisback because he's like so
(33:47):
overcome, he can't look at her.
And she says, I can't breathe.
And he thinks it's with emotion.
But she literally can't breathebecause look at her.
She literally can't breathe.
So just this part the fashion,the doting but overbearing
father, the fact that themedallion is something that she
doesn't look at often, butbecause of the way her father
(34:08):
treats her, she has to wear it.
The corset, she can't breathe.
It's a hot day, she falls in thewater.
Like just gorgeous.
Just gorgeous, perfect writing.
All of it is it's characterdriven.
The exposition is seamless.
Like it's not and the setup isso plausible.
(34:29):
All of it.
All of it is so plausible.
And then meanwhile, that JackSparrow is in a spot where he
can save her, also plausible.
We see like how he happens tobe, he is on either the
interceptor or the dauntless,because he's trying to steal a
ship.
And there are only two soldiersguarding the ships, and they did
(34:53):
not send the brain trustsbecause everyone else is at the
ceremony.
SPEAKER_03 (34:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
And so when she goes in, Norrington tries to jump in
after her, and everyone likestops and is like, the rocks,
like it's a miracle she missedthem.
And so Jack is with the twosoldiers and he's like, Will you
be saving her then?
And they both go, I can't swim.
And he's like, oh, fine, andjumps in after her.
So, like, it's just, it'sgorgeous.
(35:19):
Like, and not what you wouldexpect from like a shitty big
budget summer blockbuster basedon a ride.
Based on a ride.
unknown (35:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
So the thing though, I note that like the corset is
like part of the tight writingthat makes all this stuff
plausible.
So while we're talking aboutcorsets, like you mentioned that
you wanted to talk about thesort of performative feminism of
the early 2000s.
Tell me what you mean by thatand how Elizabeth fits into
that.
What's what's going on?
SPEAKER_01 (35:51):
So I can remember, even though I wanted to see the
film in the trailer, there's amoment in the film, and it made
it into the trailer, whereElizabeth says, You want to know
about pain?
Try wearing a corset beforehitting one of the bad pirates.
And I remember even at the timeas a 24-year-old going, Oh, for
fuck's sake.
(36:16):
It's like a man wrote that line.
And he did, because thescreenwriter, screenwriters are
all men.
And that's kind of what I meanabout performative feminism.
And like the same thing with thelike, oh, the ladies in London
must have learned how not tobreathe.
And Elizabeth as a character,and I think Kira Knightley did a
(36:37):
bang up job with what she wasgiven.
But Elizabeth as a character iswritten in a way that feels
like, look, see here.
This is a strong woman.
See, see, this is a strongwoman.
She is really feisty and snarky,and she doesn't do what her dad
says.
And see how strong she is?
And she is gonna say sillythings about corsets and stuff.
(37:01):
And look, she's gonna house thisturkey leg because she's not
like other girls.
unknown (37:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:12):
Okay, I hear, I hear the critique.
So my question for you is andit's been a long time since I've
seen this movie, maybe since itwas new-ish.
I assume that by your pointingthis out, like it's not backed
up.
Like, is she given agency?
Does she claim agency?
Like, I like I hear you saying,like, she's there's performative
ph feminism in the same way thatlike the Spice Girls were like
(37:34):
girl power, but then also, youknow, and we did an episode
about the Spice Girls.
It was a both hand with them.
Like, tell me, like, whatsubstance, if any, is behind
that?
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
So there is a bit of a both and so she uses what
agency she has.
So when her father andNorrington refuse to go save
Will, she says, Okay, I willmarry you, Norrington, if you go
save my boyfriend, basically.
Sort of buttercup.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like right on, Elizabeth, dowhat you have to do.
(38:06):
She knows how to get out ofsticky situations with pirates
by invoking parlay, because thecode requires you to get a
meeting with the captain orwhoever the leader is.
She, when she is locked up whenthey go to rescue Will, they
lock her up in the captain'squarters.
And so she breaks out and takesa rowboat to go and do stuff.
(38:28):
When the black pearl isattacking the inter or yeah, the
interceptor, and this is theother thing, it passes Bechtelt
in a squeaker because one of themembers of the crew that they
gather in Tortuga is a womannamed Anna Maria who is played
by Zoe Saldana, and they talkabout strategy.
(38:48):
And so Elizabeth has goodstrategic ideas.
Okay.
So there's some of that, butthey also like when she does her
stand where she like gets infront of Will and Jack and says,
like, if you're gonna shootthem, you have to shoot me too.
I watched this with my15-year-old last night, and he
(39:11):
was like, Why are the governorin Norrington just letting them
go?
And I was like, plot armor, theyjust are.
And he was absolutely rightbecause basically what she does,
the agency she has is given toher.
Her father gives her hisblessing just because.
(39:32):
Like, she's not actually likeshe's exercising her agency, but
it's just because it was writtenin 2003 that she actually gets
what she wants.
An actual young woman in the18th century would have been
like, nope.
Her father would have been like,You want to marry a blacksmith
(39:54):
now?
Absolutely not.
You're marrying Norrington.
You are going to be tiedliterally into the mansion and
have lots of babies.
So that's kind of what I mean byperformative feminism.
And like, I'm not asking forrealism in a movie about zombie
vampire, zombie pirates.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Right, right.
No, I I don't I hear what I hearis not a critique that it's not
realistic, but rather thatthere's a lot of attention drawn
to it, like in the way that youjust kind of mimicked, like,
see, see, see, like this and thethe comments about corsets and
stuff that were like trying toget feminist cookies as opposed
(40:33):
to actually like figuring outand and it sounds like they
backed it up a little bit to theextent that they could in the
story and the time that it wasbeing written.
It's an interesting question.
It's always an interestingquestion.
Like, if a woman had been in thewriter's room, like how would
Elizabeth have changed?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
I feel like she could have been more involved in
that final scene.
Uh-huh.
That would have been a true testof her agency.
Because all of that was likewhat Will did was ultimately
kind of useless.
I mean, it wasn't.
It got him off of because hesaid if he said, All if all I've
(41:11):
done is given the um the hangmantwo pairs of boots, then I I'll
consider it good.
Because you saved Jack, but ifyou know, we're both hanged,
okay, fine.
So it wasn't useless.
But it's only because she issaying to her father when
they're hanging Jack, like, thisis wrong, but it's not doing
anything.
Anyway, the other the momentthat, like, where I'm talking
(41:34):
about like the housing theturkey leg, like Barbosa invites
her to eat with him.
When he she first starts, she'seating the way she's been
taught, with like a single forkfull and like very and then he's
like daintily, and he's like,uh, there's no need to stand on
ceremony, you must be hungry.
And she like immediately likedrops the fork and like ha ha
rah.
And he's like, here.
(41:55):
And like she's like housingeverything.
And he's acting weird, and it'sbecause he can't taste anything.
And that is the another one ofthose a part of the performative
feminism because Kira Knightleyis a slip of a thing.
SPEAKER_03 (42:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and so it's tiny.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Yeah.
And it's the like, oh yeah, notlike other girls.
I can put away food.
Yeah, but I'm still, but I'mstill I'm still size zero.
Yeah.
So, and that's I'm not in anyway having a problem with Kira
Knightley for that.
That's the right thing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:26):
Sure, sure.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (42:27):
But that I remember that pissing me off at the time
too.
Because it was per first of all,I'm like, I'm sorry.
That young woman who has beenraised the way that she has
would not drop it that quickly,no matter how hungry she is.
Uh-uh.
And then secondly, like, why arewe doing this?
What are we doing in thismoment?
What is this scene showing us?
Now, yes, showing us she'shungry and like then slowly
(42:47):
realizing, like, whoa, he'sbeing really weird.
Is he poisoning me?
And like, it is how we come tounderstand what the curse is.
So we only have a little bit oftime.
I really want to make sure I getto the both end nuance.
Yeah, talk to me about that.
So, Will doesn't know who hisfather was.
He had been told he was amerchant sailor.
And so when he learns that hisfather was a pirate, everyone
(43:08):
says bootstrap Bill was a goodman and a pirate.
And he's like, No, he was not apirate, he was a good man.
And that's repeated multipletimes, where people will say
Jack Sparrow was a good man anda pirate.
And over time it becomes clearthat the very binary thinking of
Norrington and the governor oflike pirates are bad.
If you're good, you're not apirate, is wrong.
(43:32):
And then also the idea that youeither play by the rules or
you're bad is also wrong.
And there's a point where Jackand Will are arguing because
Jack defeated Will in theirfirst fight, and Will said, I
would have beat you in a fairfight.
(43:52):
And Jack says, That doesn't giveme much motivation to fight
fair, then does it?
Which is a really good point.
And it's in part because of likethe time of when this is set and
then the uniforms that theofficers wear.
It reminds me of RevolutionaryWar and the things that my third
grade teacher taught me abouthow like the British officers
(44:13):
were wearing these red coatswith a white X target target
right over their heart.
And so the Americans were inguerrilla warfare and hiding,
and like the British were like,that's not fair.
SPEAKER_00 (44:23):
And the Americans were like, uh-huh.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
So that both and nuance of like it can be fair to
fight unfair if we're trying toprotect my own life or protect
other people.
And you can be both a goodperson and someone who breaks
the rules is actually, I think,kind of a remarkably nuanced
(44:50):
take for a blockbuster summerfilm based on a ride at Disney
World.
SPEAKER_00 (44:57):
With zombie pirates.
SPEAKER_01 (45:14):
That it is so difficult for people to
recognize yes, you can likesomething and critique it.
Yes, something can be good andhave problems.
Yes, someone can have broken thelaw and still deserve a second
chance.
SPEAKER_03 (45:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:33):
You know, I think it's so in our, we don't have
time to get all the way into it,but I think it will be
interesting in our shit weforgot to say, bonus content to
sort of tease that out a littlefurther with the binary of
British and American, which isoverlain on this, because I
think that's part of it too.
Like we Americans, like per yourexample of your third grade
(45:55):
teacher, like we kind of prideourselves on breaking the rules
if we think the rules arestupid.
And so that makes that both enda little easier to for the
American audience to accept.
Because we're like, yeah, you'rea rule breaker, but the rules
are stupid.
(46:16):
So we don't need your stupidrules.
Yeah.
So you're still a good person.
So like I think there's moreeven to tease out on the British
and American duality that youpointed to that we don't have
time for here, but we will, I'msure, get into in our in our
bonus content.
So let me reflect back to youwhat we did talk about in this
main episode.
We started actually talkingabout Johnny Depp and his
(46:39):
performance and this Pirates ofthe Rock Stars of the 19th, 18th
century, of the 18th century,that he said famously, and we we
spent kind of significant timetalking about what does that
actually mean?
And is it fair or accurate?
Is it an insult, as you suggest,in both directions, both an
insult to pirates and to rockstars?
(47:01):
We then talked about JohnnyDepp's performance based on that
and the way in which he haschanged the way Western culture
imagines pirates, like justcompletely changed the way that
we imagine pirates, which isreally interesting.
There was a footnote, which wewill, I'm sure, also talk about
(47:21):
in the shit we forgot to sayabout the fact that you, we, you
respect Johnny Depp's actingchoices, but not him as a
person.
And the fact that he made thiscreative connection between rock
stars and pirates, rightly orwrongly, modeled his behavior
and movements after KeithRichards.
And now we have this iconiccharacter.
(47:43):
And you name that as like thesoul of creativity or something
like that, like true creativityin that, which I think is worth
naming.
The fact that he and hisdirector had to fight for it.
And now, in your opinion, Idon't think you're wrong, is
part of what made this movie asuccess.
Let's see.
We talked some about thestorytelling, the fact that this
(48:06):
movie is fairly tightly writtenand the ways in which, though it
leans on cliches, it does itwell in ways that are satisfying
so that exposition happenswithout exposition.
There are all these hints todifferent things that the viewer
is like brought along on.
You noted a couple of times thefact that the medallion that we
see in the dream, we now see inthe the now with dust all over
(48:29):
it, which tells us multiplethings about it and all of this
sort of things with from theoverbearing dad to the corset
that like set up a veryplausible setup for then the
sequence of events that follow.
We spent some time talking aboutthe what you named as
performative feminism of theearly 2000s.
(48:52):
So Elizabeth Swan is an exampleof it.
You named it it, you know,especially in from these male
writers, this like veryself-conscious, like, look at
how not like other girls thisgirl is, right?
This tiny 17-year-old girl,which we may get into a little
(49:14):
bit also.
And then lastly, we spent alittle bit of time talking about
the holding both and, and thatthe, that this is part of the
thesis of this movie, I think,because it is repeated so often
and rejected, but theneventually accepted, Bootstrap
Bill was a good man and apirate.
And and with Will saying, like,no, he was a good man, and at
(49:35):
the end accepting good man andpirate can coexist, rule break,
it's not, it's not a it's not aduality in the way that the
rule-following villains, well,sort of villains, of the the
captain, the commodore, and thegovernor would have us believe.
So, listeners, head over to ourPatreon to hear our additional
(49:59):
thoughts, which we will explore.
We are out of time.
Next week, I have no idea whatI'm bringing you.
I don't know either.
Well, we'll find out when I gethere, won't we?
All right, next time.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(50:20):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(50:40):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
So that both and nuance of like it can be fair to
fight unfair if we're trying toprotect my own life or protect
other people.
And you can be both a goodperson and someone who breaks
the rules, is actually, I think,kind of a remarkably nuanced
(00:20):
take for a blockbuster summerfilm based on a ride at Disney
World.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 2003 Gore Verbinski filmPirates of the Caribbean with my
sister, Tracy Guy Decker, andwith you.
(01:09):
Let's dive in.
Tracy, I have no idea if you'veseen this movie or not.
I have seen this movie.
Okay.
So tell me what's in your headabout Pirates of the Caribbean.
SPEAKER_00 (01:20):
Johnny's Epp in a lot of eyeliner, which I found
very sexy because I always likemeant an eyeliner.
God, yes.
And kind of like swaggeringaround, like sort of drunk, but
also like wise somehow in myimagination, like in his weird
drunkenness.
Kira Knightley looking amazing.
(01:42):
Actually, just pretty people ingeneral.
Orlando Bloom is also in myhead.
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
Like the first thing I think ofwhen I think of pirates is
Johnny Depp's eyeliner.
So I am consistent.
I like men and eye makeup.
Yes.
Nothing if not consistent.
Yes.
So yeah, that's what's in myhead.
But somebody, why are we talkingabout pirates today?
(02:04):
What's what's at stake for you?
SPEAKER_01 (02:05):
So this was the first film that my spouse and I
saw together when we weredating.
It came out in July of 2003.
My spouse and I met July 7th,2003.
So we'd only been dating like aweek and a half.
I don't know.
Oh, wow.
So it was like a first or seconddate?
Yeah.
It was very early on.
(02:26):
And I don't think you would haveseen it if I hadn't said, I'd
like to see this movie.
Because he especially that likemen in eyeliner.
Well, no, he doesn't like men ineyeliner.
He also tends to be like, oh,well, it's something everybody
likes.
I'm going to be contrary.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
You know, I've known him almost as long as you have,
and that tracks.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
So the other thing, this movie very strangely
reminds me of Alanis Morissette,because at the time when we
first met, my spouse was workingfor a job where he had to change
clothes.
And he had come from, we saw iton a weekday, and he had come
from work and his shirt was oninside out and backwards when he
(03:13):
met Kib to meet me.
And so we bought the tickets.
We went and I was like, Yourshirt's on inside out and
backwards.
He's like, oh, so it is.
And I was thinking like he wasgonna go into the men's room and
change it.
And he's like, popcorn.
And we went in.
And so I was thinking the LannisMoore set song, your sweater's
on backwards and inside out.
And you say, Ha, howappropriate.
unknown (03:34):
Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
And it's okay.
So just a little background ofhow my mind works.
Okay.
unknown (03:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
All of that.
So there's something at stakebecause it's associated with
your the beginnings of my earlycourtship.
Yes.
Courtship, yeah.
All right.
So give me some postcards at thedestination.
What do you want to talk aboutwhen we get into it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
So this movie, if you recall, was an unexpected
hit.
A lot of people were like, it'sbased on a ride at Disney World.
WTF.
I didn't even remember thatthat's where it came from.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
You're right.
It was like if they made it's asmall world into a movie.
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Yeah.
Right.
People were like, what is thisgonna be?
This is gonna be ridiculous.
Why why why are they throwing somuch money at this?
This is so stupid.
So nobody expected anything goodof it.
And then they got big namesassociated with it.
Now, Kira Knightley was, Ithink, 17 or 18.
So she was not a big name yet.
(04:40):
And then, same thing withOrlando Bloom.
He was an emerging star.
Johnny Depp was already a star.
Johnny Depp was established.
He was about 40, but he madeweird films.
He did, that's true.
Had Bendit Like Beckham come outyet?
Oh, it was yeah the year before.
Yes.
So Bendit Like Beckham had comeout, but Jeffrey Rush was also
(05:01):
associated with it.
He's Captain Barbosa.
So he's like a well-known andserious actor.
And then Jonathan Price, whoplays Kira Knightley's father,
was also in it.
And he another serious actor.
And so people are like, what isthis?
So that was part of the reasonwhy I was interested in it.
(05:23):
And this gets to one of thethings that I like, which is
people taking the craftseriously, but not themselves,
which is very much what thisfilm is.
And that is actually why I lovethis film and don't particularly
care for the franchise.
It just started becoming tryingto milk the cash cow.
Sure.
(05:44):
This film is very tightlywritten, although I think the
film itself could be, they couldcut probably 20 or 30 minutes of
runtime and not lose anything.
But it's really well written.
It's just part of the reason whyit did better than expected.
Then Johnny Depp, who I hisacting choices I respect, the
person himself I do not.
(06:04):
And I'm gonna want to talk aboutthat.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
The way that he played Captain Jack Sparrow came
about because he describedpirates as rock stars of the
18th century, and then he basedhis performance on Keith
Richards and stole the show.
Totally.
And that is right there.
If he had played it morestraight, or if they had had
like they were talking aboutHugh Jackman and other stars
(06:27):
playing Captain Jack Sparrow,movie would have flopped.
Right.
Would not have worked.
And so talking about what itmeans that pirates are rock
stars, and how that's kind ofoffensive in both directions.
So I want to talk about that.
One of the things that Iappreciate about the film is
that it actually does a reallygood job of like the both and
(06:50):
kind of nuance that we talkabout, because they're
consistently saying thatBootstrap Bill, who is Orlando
Bloom's father, was a good manand a pirate, that those are not
opposites.
So I appreciate that there isthe this understanding of
there's more complexity thanjust good person or pirate.
(07:11):
You can be one thing or another.
I want to talk about how thisfilm feels very American in a
lot of ways, and how that mightfeel weird for the British
actors in it, because theyrepresent the rule followers who
are kind of ridiculous and getbested by the more American and
(07:33):
for the most part the Americanactors who play the good pirates
who break the rules and win.
And then I want to talk a littlebit about the performative
feminism that we saw a lot of inthe early 2000s that annoyed me
even at the time.
So that's kind of where we'regoing with this.
Cool.
SPEAKER_00 (07:50):
Well, since all I remember is Johnny Depp's
eyeliner, remind me of the plotof this movie made based on a
ride at Disney World.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Yeah, yeah.
I don't want to go through thewhole thing.
So I'm gonna tell you what's whothe characters are, and then
kind of a basic synopsis.
So the straight characters,meaning the ones who, you know,
just are could be in anyswashbuckling romance, is we've
got Miss Elizabeth Swan, playedby Kira Knightley, who we meet
(08:21):
for the first time in thecrossing from England to Port
Royal in the Caribbean whenshe's about 10 years old.
She is the daughter of GovernorSwan, played by Jonathan Price.
During the crossing, she sees aboy who is floating on a
shipwreck, who is also makingthe crossing from England.
The boy is Will Turner, who willbe played by Orlando Bloom as an
(08:44):
adult.
He is going to become theapprentice to a blacksmith.
When she sees him, he has a goldmedallion around his neck that
she thinks means he's a pirate.
And so she's afraid that he willbe hanged because that's just
what they do in Port Royal.
They hang pirates.
So they have had an affinity foreach other since childhood, but
(09:06):
because he's just a blacksmith'sapprentice and she is the
daughter of the governor, theycan never actually be together.
There is also Captain nowCommodore Norrington, who is the
military leader of the fleet ofships in Port Royal, who is in
love with Elizabeth and wants tomarry her.
(09:28):
And that's basically everyone inPort Royal that you need to
know.
On the pirate side, we've gotCaptain Jack Sparrow.
He is the former captain of theBlack Pearl, which is supposed
to be the fastest ship in theCaribbean.
The Intercept is the fastestship in Port Royal.
The only ship that can beat theIntercept is the Black Pearl.
(09:48):
Ten years prior to the events ofthe film, Jack was on his way to
Ilam de Muerta, the Isle ofDeath, to find the treasure of
Cortez that had been cursed.
It was cursed treasure that theAztecs gave to Cortez to try to
get him to stop killing them.
(10:09):
When he gave the location to hisfirst mate Barbosa, and Barbosa
then led a mutiny and left Jackon an island with just a single
pistol with a shot in it,because there's not much you can
do with it except kill yourselfafter several days of starving
to death.
(10:30):
And then Barbosa and his crew,including Bootstrap Bill, Will
Turner's father, went on tosteal the treasure, which turned
out to be cursed, which madethem basically zombies.
They can never feel pleasure orpain when they eat.
The food turns to ash in theirmouths, the drink doesn't slick
their thirst.
(10:51):
No pleasurable company can slicktheir lust.
And they cannot die.
And moonlight shows what theyare, they appear as skeletons in
the moonlight.
So they have spent the 10 yearssince they realized this trying
to find all of the medallions.
There were 882 of them that theyhad spent once they realized
(11:12):
what had happened, and thengiving up their blood, putting
it back where they found it.
But they had, because BootstrapBill had been uncomfortable with
the mutiny, they had put himoverboard, which means the poor
man is a zombie in the sea.
Like at the bottom of the ocean.
At the bottom of the ocean,yeah.
(11:33):
So he's like constantlydrowning, but not.
That sounds like Greek tragedytype stuff.
It's awful.
Because he had sent hismedallion to his son.
And that's the one thatElizabeth took off of Will.
So they have been searching forthat last one.
And because Bootstrap is at thebottom of the sea, they need to
(11:54):
find his child to get the bloodfrom his child.
They knew he had a kid, but theydidn't know anything else about
his kid.
So at the onset of the story,Elizabeth has a dream about the
day she met Will.
She goes and finds themedallion.
It is dusty, so it's clear shedoesn't look at it that often.
(12:16):
And she's interrupted and putsit on her neck to hide it when
her father comes in.
This becomes important becauseshe later falls into the ocean
and the medallion sets out,sends out a pulse because and it
calls to the cursed piratesbecause they can feel it because
it's in the water.
(12:36):
So they come and siege, likeattack Port Royal the same day
Jack Sparrow arrives in PortRoyal.
Jack rescues Elizabeth from thewater.
And even though he's justrescued the governor's daughter,
because he's the pirate, they'regoing to kill him.
He then threatens her to get outof being almost killed and goes
(13:00):
to the blacksmith to break hischains, where he gets into a
fight with Will Turner, one ofmany.
He's subdued again and is put injail where they plan to hang him
in the morning.
It's overnight when the BlackPearl arrives.
The pirates come and kidnapElizabeth.
She tells Barbosa her name isElizabeth Turner.
(13:22):
And in the meantime, Norringtonhas proposed to her, but she
hasn't given an answer becauseshe had fallen in the water.
Because she was wearing a corsetand couldn't breathe.
So they take her with them.
She knows they want themedallion.
They take her with them and shedoesn't realize that they're not
going to put her back on shore.
And she learns that they arecursed and with the skeleton
(13:42):
thing and stuff like that,because they look normal,
normal, unless the moonlight'sshining on them.
Will goes to Norrington, islike, we have to go after her.
And Norrington brushes him off.
So Will goes to Jack Sparrow andsays, That's your ship, the
Black Pearl.
You know where they're going.
Help me.
And Jack is uninterested untilWill tells him his name is Will
(14:06):
Turner.
And Jack doesn't say so, butmakes it clear, like, he's like,
oh, Will is short for William,I'm sure, right?
Name for your father.
And like, so they do thisdelightful maneuver to steal the
Intercept by stealing theDauntless, which is the other
(14:27):
main ship, and then getting thewhole entire Navy to get the
Intercept to come after them.
And then they take the Interceptbecause they would not have been
able to get the Dauntless out ofthe harbor, just the two of
them.
And then they have disabled theDauntless, so it can't come
after them.
It's a delightful plan.
They then go to Tortuga to raisea crew and then go to La Muerta,
(14:53):
where they find Barbosa and thecrew with Elizabeth.
They return the medallion andjust cut her palm.
It's just a little bit of bloodbecause she's afraid that
they're thinking they're goingto kill her.
And it doesn't do anythingbecause she's not actually Bill
Turner's child.
Will ends up betraying JackSparrow and returning to the
(15:15):
Intercept with Elizabeth.
Jack tells Barbosa that he knowswhere Bootstrap's child is and
who he is, and is trying tomanipulate and work his way into
getting what he wants.
The Pearl chases after theIntercept.
They end up firing on them.
(15:35):
And the Pearl wins the fight,and Will figures out what the
everything is and basically getsthem to release Elizabeth by
saying, I will kill myself inthe water so that you can never
lift the curse if you don'trelease her.
And so they do, but sincethey're pirates, they do it the
(15:58):
way that they double cross.
And so they have her walk theplank to the same island where
Jack had been marooned 10 yearsbefore.
And so they also maroon Jackthere.
And they have also sunk theintercept.
We finally find out how Jackescaped because it was a big
mystery this whole time.
People have different storiesabout how he escaped, and
(16:19):
they're all each one is moreridiculous than the last.
We finally find out it's theisland had been a cache for rum
runners.
They left rum there.
He'd been there for three dayswhen the rum runners came by and
he negotiated a passage.
But the rum runners don't workanymore because Captain
Norrington has run them out ofbusiness.
So they're stuck there.
(16:41):
So Elizabeth encourages Jack toget so drunk he passes out, and
then she burns all of the rum.
So it makes a huge fire.
And because her father andNorrington are looking for her,
they arrive.
Her father and Norrington refuseto go rescue Will.
And so she says to Norrington,please do this for me as a
(17:03):
wedding present.
And so he agrees.
They go to Illa Muerta, and JackSparrow says, like, here's how
we can do this.
And he is again playing bothsides.
He goes in alone and suggeststhat Norrington stays out and
they will fire on the BlackPearls crew as they come out.
(17:24):
But what he doesn't realize isthey are going to instead take
the boats, they walk underwaterand climb up onto the Dauntless
and attack that way.
Meanwhile, Jack has made itclear to Will you wait for the
right moment.
And Jack steals one of the goldpieces.
So he becomes cursed as well.
(17:44):
So he's immortal.
And so he and Barbosa end upfighting.
Elizabeth comes in and ishelping Will.
And at the exact right moment,Will and Jack return their
pieces, cut and cut themselves.
And so that Jack is able to killBarbosa.
With that one shot, with the oneshot, which he had been saving
(18:06):
for 10 years.
And in the final scene, theyhave brought Jack back to Port
Royal and they are hanging him.
Will comes to see whereNorrington, the governor, and
Elizabeth are standing.
He tells Elizabeth, I shouldhave told you this every day
from the day I met you.
I love you.
(18:27):
And then he goes to rescue Jack.
He throws a sword, which we knowhe can do, so that Jack can
stand on it so that he doesn'tfall and cuts him down and they
fight their way out, but thenthey are surrounded because
they're surrounded.
Elizabeth stands with them tosay, like, you're gonna have to
kill me too.
And of course, the governor'slike, No, no, no, protect my
(18:48):
daughter.
Basically, they allow Jack toget away, and Elizabeth says, I
want to be with Will, and thegovernor gives his blessing, and
we see Jack meet up with theblack pearl, and he resumes his
captaincy of his ship.
And that's the end of the movie.
Okay.
(19:08):
Relatively concise.
It's pretty good for us.
SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
So if the zombie pirates can walk on the ocean
floor, why didn't Bootstrap Billjust walk to land?
SPEAKER_01 (19:23):
I think they did something to him.
I don't remember.
Like but it is explained.
It's not in this film.
Okay.
Cool.
All right.
So where do you want to start?
Johnny Depp's portrayal.
Okay.
For anyone who wasn't aroundbefore then, that's not what
(19:43):
pirates were like.
Like now when you see pirates,like you always see pirates like
that now.
But that wasn't what pirateswere like before then.
SPEAKER_00 (19:55):
Do you mean in like popular culture?
Yeah.
Or do you mean like okay, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
So, like, just meaning like if you go to like
Spirit Halloween and you seelike a generic pirate costume,
it will look like Jack Sparrow.
That will look like JackSparrow.
And that is what we think of aspirate in pop culture now.
And then his weird way oftalking and acting and all of
(20:23):
that.
And like the eye makeup, that isall part of like what Johnny
Depp brought, or the peoplearound this movie.
SPEAKER_00 (20:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:31):
With Johnny Depp.
It was Johnny Depp.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
Like, like the shit and his hair was all here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
It wasn't like a costume.
Well, I mean, like, he wanted tomake he was like, let me do
weird.
I want this to be weird.
And like he and Gorb Verbinskihad to fight for it.
Because like Eisner, who was thehead of Disney at the time, was
like, what the fuck is this?
Why are we doing this?
And they were worried becausethere was a movie based on a
(20:59):
ride in 2002 called like BearCountry, or I don't really know
that ride, that flopped.
Everybody hated it.
And so they were like worried.
And then Johnny Depp comes inbeing all Johnny Depp.
And they're like, who?
What?
Why?
SPEAKER_00 (21:16):
So And Pirates, like, I think of Captain Hook as
like the, you know, which I whowas much more formal.
Like, I mean, Hook is like fromthis children's depiction, but
like there was a formality and aruthlessness, which I think we
get in the other pirates,Barbosa, but like Depp, I mean,
(21:38):
in some ways, in my mind, likeDepp made possible our flag
means death.
Oh, yes.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's based on true events.
Yeah.
But like the way that we receiveCaptain Steed and even
Blackbeard in our flag meansdeath, like, I think we need
like we, the broadest cultural.
(22:00):
We needed Depp's Jack Sparrow tolike open us up to receiving
these like weird andtouchy-feely, even though
they're based on real people.
SPEAKER_01 (22:09):
Yeah.
And like, now some of it is likethe other aspect of this was
like part of the reason why itwas expected to flop was because
pirate movies didn't do well.
Like they they used to, like theErrol Flynn era.
Uh-huh.
But in the early 2000s, that'snot where we were.
Yeah.
And like we hadn't had piratemovies that did well since like
(22:32):
the 50s, maybe.
Like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
I mean, there's Pirates of Penzance and like all
of that, but Oh, but that was abut Pirates of Penzance is a is
a spoof, right?
Taking the idea of a piratedecently seriously.
Yeah.
Like not since like mutiny onthe bounty.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
And then the other thing about Captain Hook is that
it's very sanitized.
Hook is, yeah.
Hook is, yeah.
Whereas these pirates are dirty.
Because that was the other thingthat Eisner objected to.
Johnny Depp had like gold capsin his teeth, and he's like,
What are you doing to yourteeth?
And he's like, I'm a pirate.
Same thing with like the braidsin his beard and stuff like
(23:14):
that.
And like if you look at hishands, they are gross.
Like grimy nails and stuff.
Grimy nails and yeah.
And similar, like now, the thingis, if you look, if I don't know
how recently you've been to thePirates of the Caribbean ride.
I mean, it was with you in the80s.
Okay.
So I was there just last year.
(23:35):
There is some like there's somegrittiness to the pirates, but
it's still like it's campiness.
Uh-huh.
And like, this is certainlycampy.
Yeah.
But you do feel you feel thegrime.
So and that when I say I canrespect the choices that Johnny
(23:56):
Depp makes as an actor to someextent.
It was another Gore Vrabinsky uhmovie that flopped where um Depp
played Tonto in The Lone Ranger.
Yeah, that's a bad look.
I have trouble respecting that.
But the fact that Depp took hiscraft seriously, but not at all
(24:17):
himself.
It's pretty great.
He made a character that has isiconic to the point where a
hundred years from now peopleare not going to recognize where
it came from that this is whatwe think of when we think of
pirates.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Right.
That is cool.
SPEAKER_01 (24:34):
That's really, really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Yeah.
Let's see.
Can we stay here?
Because the postcard you gave mewas Depp saying pirates are rock
stars of the 18th century.
And your response is that'sinsulting in both directions.
Tell me why.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
So the idea that pirates are the rock stars of
the 18th century.
Well, first of all, a pirate islike we have this idea of a
pirate as a thing.
Whereas, like it's not likeyou're in high school and your
guidance counselor is like, solet's see what kind of career
(25:12):
you want to do.
Similarly, rock star is notsomething you're a guidance
counselor as you go towards.
But piracy is something that youdo in part because of economic
need.
So the idea that pirates are therock stars of the 18th century
is like insulting because it'san economic reality that you
(25:36):
become.
And it's insulting also becauserock stars are aspirational.
And I don't think pirates wereever aspirational.
That's that's insulting.
Like people don't want to bepirates.
Like, why are you saying theyare the rock stars of the 18th
century?
Like, are they the rock stars ofthe 18th century to us now?
Because we are far enoughremoved that we can romanticize
(25:59):
them.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
I don't know.
I'm not a historian of the 18thcentury.
Well, and I'm not sure if that'swhat Johnny Depp was saying.
Like, well, I think what he wassaying that was though that
there was like a notoriety.
This is what I like, yeah.
Just based on you saying it, I'mjust responding to what you you
know, you saying it.
There was a notoriety and uhlike a name recognition, a brand
(26:21):
recognition, you know, likeBlackbeard was the most feared
pirate of like whatever, youknow, that sort of thing, in a
way that like today we mighttalk about the notoriety of rock
stars.
I mean, the difference in I hearthe I actually in what you just
said, I hear the insult insofaras like rock stars are artists
(26:43):
and they gain notoriety becauseof their ability to either
create art or to entertain us,whether or not you like their
art, versus pirates who do whatthey do, as you say, for an
economic necessity.
And also like their notoriety isfor living outside of the kind
of lane, like outside theprescribed lane and making money
(27:09):
as privateers and as merchants,like catch is catch can, as
opposed to sort of like, youknow, these are the ways that
people make money.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Yeah.
Now, if we just say it likethat, okay, sure, they are rock
stars.
Notoriety thing.
Well, the notoriety and makingmoney outside of the normal way.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
Well, I was I was actually suggesting, yes, yes.
I was actually suggesting thatmight be a way of saying that's
an insult because like a rockstar cre is creating art and a
pirate is like stealing thingsand selling it.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
Now, the other thing though is like pirates raped and
pillaged and destroyed.
Like that's the other thing.
Like the reason why pirates werenotorious was because they left
destruction in their wake.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:51):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
And trauma.
SPEAKER_03 (27:52):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
That's insulting.
That's insulting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Yeah.
Although the fact that he choseKeith Richards, I mean, like the
stones were known, but like,weren't they notorious for like
trash in hotel rooms andgroupies and stuff?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:07):
So that's insulting to rock stars.
But then it's also like, in someways, it's insulting to pirates
because the fact that I thinkthat pirates might have just uh
like the known ones, I guess,are not necessarily doing this.
But the ones who are just tryingto survive to survive are not
(28:30):
like the dissolute rock starswho are destroying things and
are like complete assholes tothe unrepentant.
Yeah, yeah.
But then there is, I think,something to like what you're
saying, like, yeah, trashinghotel rooms and like the problem
with the Altamont where theRolling Stones hired Hell's
Angels.
(28:50):
Hell's Angels.
As security and people died.
Yeah.
So like I kind of understandwhere Johnny Depp said that and
where that came from.
And that's, I guess, where myrespect for him as an artist
comes from is he makes thosecreative leaps that most people
will be like, What the fuck areyou talking about, Depp?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
Right.
And by making that leap andmodeling his performance after
Richards, then he's created thisiconic character, as you say,
that informs all pirates thatcome after.
Yes.
All depictions of pirates, Ishould say.
SPEAKER_01 (29:21):
All depictions.
Yeah.
And like is a delightfulcharacter and uh scene stealing,
charming, funny, hilarious, likejust amazing.
Just an amazing performance thathe got like all kinds of
nominations for.
So, like, essence of creativity.
SPEAKER_03 (29:39):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
And weird as fuck, which is great.
Like it's so great.
So I really appreciate that.
And that again, that's whatelevates this from something
that honestly would haveflopped.
As good as Jeffrey Rush andOrlando Bloom and Kira Knightley
and Jonathan Price and JackDavenport, who plays Norrington,
all of them are great.
(30:01):
Like they are all very goodactors.
But it's just a a dimestoreromance.
Yeah.
With them.
And even with the curse, becauseoriginally they they did not
have the supernatural element.
And the supernatural elementalso, I think, makes this a
better story.
SPEAKER_00 (30:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
It changes the stakes.
SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
Yes.
So while we're talking aboutstory, like and and the stakes
of the storytelling, like let'stalk about you, you named that
the the writing is part of, inaddition to Depp's performance,
part of what made this asuccess, when it by all
measures, maybe should have beena flop.
So talk to me about that.
Talk to me about thestorytelling.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
So it's very tidy how it handles things.
So the fact that when we firstthe first scene that we see is
Elizabeth's dream, where she'sremembering the dream is when
she first met Will Turner.
And so what that does is itgives us this exposition that
introduces these characters aschildren and introduces the
(30:57):
medallion, also introduces howPort Royal handles pirates, just
it all of this introduction.
And like the thing is startingwith a dream, starting with a
character waking up is socliche, but it's cliche because
it's effective and it'sefficient.
SPEAKER_00 (31:15):
Also, this is a movie based on a ride.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
Yeah.
When you do a cliche reallywell, it just shivers.
It starts off with like an oceanand fog, and you hear a small
child's voice singing the songfrom the ride.
Yo, ho, yo, ho.
And it's very creepy.
And it's the child playing ChildElizabeth singing it by herself.
(31:41):
So like it sets the tone.
And so that is very efficient.
And what we then do is we seelike her eyes as a child, and
then like a cut to KiraKnightley's eyes as she wakes
up.
And so because she was thinkingabout it, we see her go find the
medallion in a drawer and it'sdusty.
(32:03):
So we know that this is notsomething that she does often.
And it's been a and it's been along time.
It's been a long time.
And not just because she's aged,but just, you know.
Yeah.
So we then also have thetightness of the storytelling
that we've already seen that herfather is overprotective and
kind of overbearing.
(32:24):
And then he knocks and comes inthe door, comes in her bedroom,
like without really giving hertime to hide the medallion
again.
So she puts it on.
We've already established thatwith what she remembers from her
dream.
And he has brought her a gift.
It is a new dress with a corset,because it's the biggest fashion
in London.
They're a little behind thetimes in the Caribbean.
(32:45):
And it's her first corset, andher maids are helping her put it
on.
And she's complaining, likeshe's like, ladies in London
must have learned how not tobreathe.
And she has to wear, she'skeeping the medallion on because
it's the only way to hide itfrom her dad.
And he is telling her thatCaptain Norrington is getting
promoted that day, and that hethinks that he will want to talk
(33:06):
to her as well.
So, like all of this, reallywell done.
Like suggestions about things.
So, and we see, because it's ahot day, we see her during the
ceremony, like fanning herselfand having trouble breathing.
And when Norrington afterwardsasks her to speak, he takes her
(33:26):
to it's this like kind ofbalcony over the water, and it's
way high up.
And she's fanning herself, andhe tells her, like, this is
thrown into stark relief.
This promotion is thrown intostark relief.
What I have not yet achieved.
Marriage to a fine woman, youhave grown to be a fine woman,
Elizabeth.
And like he kind of turns hisback because he's like so
(33:47):
overcome, he can't look at her.
And she says, I can't breathe.
And he thinks it's with emotion.
But she literally can't breathebecause look at her.
She literally can't breathe.
So just this part the fashion,the doting but overbearing
father, the fact that themedallion is something that she
doesn't look at often, butbecause of the way her father
(34:08):
treats her, she has to wear it.
The corset, she can't breathe.
It's a hot day, she falls in thewater.
Like just gorgeous.
Just gorgeous, perfect writing.
All of it is it's characterdriven.
The exposition is seamless.
Like it's not and the setup isso plausible.
(34:29):
All of it.
All of it is so plausible.
And then meanwhile, that JackSparrow is in a spot where he
can save her, also plausible.
We see like how he happens tobe, he is on either the
interceptor or the dauntless,because he's trying to steal a
ship.
And there are only two soldiersguarding the ships, and they did
(34:53):
not send the brain trustsbecause everyone else is at the
ceremony.
SPEAKER_03 (34:57):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
And so when she goes in, Norrington tries to jump in
after her, and everyone likestops and is like, the rocks,
like it's a miracle she missedthem.
And so Jack is with the twosoldiers and he's like, Will you
be saving her then?
And they both go, I can't swim.
And he's like, oh, fine, andjumps in after her.
So, like, it's just, it'sgorgeous.
(35:19):
Like, and not what you wouldexpect from like a shitty big
budget summer blockbuster basedon a ride.
Based on a ride.
unknown (35:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
So the thing though, I note that like the corset is
like part of the tight writingthat makes all this stuff
plausible.
So while we're talking aboutcorsets, like you mentioned that
you wanted to talk about thesort of performative feminism of
the early 2000s.
Tell me what you mean by thatand how Elizabeth fits into
that.
What's what's going on?
SPEAKER_01 (35:51):
So I can remember, even though I wanted to see the
film in the trailer, there's amoment in the film, and it made
it into the trailer, whereElizabeth says, You want to know
about pain?
Try wearing a corset beforehitting one of the bad pirates.
And I remember even at the timeas a 24-year-old going, Oh, for
fuck's sake.
(36:16):
It's like a man wrote that line.
And he did, because thescreenwriter, screenwriters are
all men.
And that's kind of what I meanabout performative feminism.
And like the same thing with thelike, oh, the ladies in London
must have learned how not tobreathe.
And Elizabeth as a character,and I think Kira Knightley did a
(36:37):
bang up job with what she wasgiven.
But Elizabeth as a character iswritten in a way that feels
like, look, see here.
This is a strong woman.
See, see, this is a strongwoman.
She is really feisty and snarky,and she doesn't do what her dad
says.
And see how strong she is?
And she is gonna say sillythings about corsets and stuff.
(37:01):
And look, she's gonna house thisturkey leg because she's not
like other girls.
unknown (37:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:12):
Okay, I hear, I hear the critique.
So my question for you is andit's been a long time since I've
seen this movie, maybe since itwas new-ish.
I assume that by your pointingthis out, like it's not backed
up.
Like, is she given agency?
Does she claim agency?
Like, I like I hear you saying,like, she's there's performative
ph feminism in the same way thatlike the Spice Girls were like
(37:34):
girl power, but then also, youknow, and we did an episode
about the Spice Girls.
It was a both hand with them.
Like, tell me, like, whatsubstance, if any, is behind
that?
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
So there is a bit of a both and so she uses what
agency she has.
So when her father andNorrington refuse to go save
Will, she says, Okay, I willmarry you, Norrington, if you go
save my boyfriend, basically.
Sort of buttercup.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like right on, Elizabeth, dowhat you have to do.
(38:06):
She knows how to get out ofsticky situations with pirates
by invoking parlay, because thecode requires you to get a
meeting with the captain orwhoever the leader is.
She, when she is locked up whenthey go to rescue Will, they
lock her up in the captain'squarters.
And so she breaks out and takesa rowboat to go and do stuff.
(38:28):
When the black pearl isattacking the inter or yeah, the
interceptor, and this is theother thing, it passes Bechtelt
in a squeaker because one of themembers of the crew that they
gather in Tortuga is a womannamed Anna Maria who is played
by Zoe Saldana, and they talkabout strategy.
(38:48):
And so Elizabeth has goodstrategic ideas.
Okay.
So there's some of that, butthey also like when she does her
stand where she like gets infront of Will and Jack and says,
like, if you're gonna shootthem, you have to shoot me too.
I watched this with my15-year-old last night, and he
(39:11):
was like, Why are the governorin Norrington just letting them
go?
And I was like, plot armor, theyjust are.
And he was absolutely rightbecause basically what she does,
the agency she has is given toher.
Her father gives her hisblessing just because.
(39:32):
Like, she's not actually likeshe's exercising her agency, but
it's just because it was writtenin 2003 that she actually gets
what she wants.
An actual young woman in the18th century would have been
like, nope.
Her father would have been like,You want to marry a blacksmith
(39:54):
now?
Absolutely not.
You're marrying Norrington.
You are going to be tiedliterally into the mansion and
have lots of babies.
So that's kind of what I mean byperformative feminism.
And like, I'm not asking forrealism in a movie about zombie
vampire, zombie pirates.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
Right, right.
No, I I don't I hear what I hearis not a critique that it's not
realistic, but rather thatthere's a lot of attention drawn
to it, like in the way that youjust kind of mimicked, like,
see, see, see, like this and thethe comments about corsets and
stuff that were like trying toget feminist cookies as opposed
(40:33):
to actually like figuring outand and it sounds like they
backed it up a little bit to theextent that they could in the
story and the time that it wasbeing written.
It's an interesting question.
It's always an interestingquestion.
Like, if a woman had been in thewriter's room, like how would
Elizabeth have changed?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
I feel like she could have been more involved in
that final scene.
Uh-huh.
That would have been a true testof her agency.
Because all of that was likewhat Will did was ultimately
kind of useless.
I mean, it wasn't.
It got him off of because hesaid if he said, All if all I've
(41:11):
done is given the um the hangmantwo pairs of boots, then I I'll
consider it good.
Because you saved Jack, but ifyou know, we're both hanged,
okay, fine.
So it wasn't useless.
But it's only because she issaying to her father when
they're hanging Jack, like, thisis wrong, but it's not doing
anything.
Anyway, the other the momentthat, like, where I'm talking
(41:34):
about like the housing theturkey leg, like Barbosa invites
her to eat with him.
When he she first starts, she'seating the way she's been
taught, with like a single forkfull and like very and then he's
like daintily, and he's like,uh, there's no need to stand on
ceremony, you must be hungry.
And she like immediately likedrops the fork and like ha ha
rah.
And he's like, here.
(41:55):
And like she's like housingeverything.
And he's acting weird, and it'sbecause he can't taste anything.
And that is the another one ofthose a part of the performative
feminism because Kira Knightleyis a slip of a thing.
SPEAKER_03 (42:09):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and so it's tiny.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Yeah.
And it's the like, oh yeah, notlike other girls.
I can put away food.
Yeah, but I'm still, but I'mstill I'm still size zero.
Yeah.
So, and that's I'm not in anyway having a problem with Kira
Knightley for that.
That's the right thing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:26):
Sure, sure.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (42:27):
But that I remember that pissing me off at the time
too.
Because it was per first of all,I'm like, I'm sorry.
That young woman who has beenraised the way that she has
would not drop it that quickly,no matter how hungry she is.
Uh-uh.
And then secondly, like, why arewe doing this?
What are we doing in thismoment?
What is this scene showing us?
Now, yes, showing us she'shungry and like then slowly
(42:47):
realizing, like, whoa, he'sbeing really weird.
Is he poisoning me?
And like, it is how we come tounderstand what the curse is.
So we only have a little bit oftime.
I really want to make sure I getto the both end nuance.
Yeah, talk to me about that.
So, Will doesn't know who hisfather was.
He had been told he was amerchant sailor.
And so when he learns that hisfather was a pirate, everyone
(43:08):
says bootstrap Bill was a goodman and a pirate.
And he's like, No, he was not apirate, he was a good man.
And that's repeated multipletimes, where people will say
Jack Sparrow was a good man anda pirate.
And over time it becomes clearthat the very binary thinking of
Norrington and the governor oflike pirates are bad.
If you're good, you're not apirate, is wrong.
(43:32):
And then also the idea that youeither play by the rules or
you're bad is also wrong.
And there's a point where Jackand Will are arguing because
Jack defeated Will in theirfirst fight, and Will said, I
would have beat you in a fairfight.
(43:52):
And Jack says, That doesn't giveme much motivation to fight
fair, then does it?
Which is a really good point.
And it's in part because of likethe time of when this is set and
then the uniforms that theofficers wear.
It reminds me of RevolutionaryWar and the things that my third
grade teacher taught me abouthow like the British officers
(44:13):
were wearing these red coatswith a white X target target
right over their heart.
And so the Americans were inguerrilla warfare and hiding,
and like the British were like,that's not fair.
SPEAKER_00 (44:23):
And the Americans were like, uh-huh.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:29):
So that both and nuance of like it can be fair to
fight unfair if we're trying toprotect my own life or protect
other people.
And you can be both a goodperson and someone who breaks
the rules is actually, I think,kind of a remarkably nuanced
(44:50):
take for a blockbuster summerfilm based on a ride at Disney
World.
SPEAKER_00 (44:57):
With zombie pirates.
SPEAKER_01 (45:14):
That it is so difficult for people to
recognize yes, you can likesomething and critique it.
Yes, something can be good andhave problems.
Yes, someone can have broken thelaw and still deserve a second
chance.
SPEAKER_03 (45:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:33):
You know, I think it's so in our, we don't have
time to get all the way into it,but I think it will be
interesting in our shit weforgot to say, bonus content to
sort of tease that out a littlefurther with the binary of
British and American, which isoverlain on this, because I
think that's part of it too.
Like we Americans, like per yourexample of your third grade
(45:55):
teacher, like we kind of prideourselves on breaking the rules
if we think the rules arestupid.
And so that makes that both enda little easier to for the
American audience to accept.
Because we're like, yeah, you'rea rule breaker, but the rules
are stupid.
(46:16):
So we don't need your stupidrules.
Yeah.
So you're still a good person.
So like I think there's moreeven to tease out on the British
and American duality that youpointed to that we don't have
time for here, but we will, I'msure, get into in our in our
bonus content.
So let me reflect back to youwhat we did talk about in this
main episode.
We started actually talkingabout Johnny Depp and his
(46:39):
performance and this Pirates ofthe Rock Stars of the 19th, 18th
century, of the 18th century,that he said famously, and we we
spent kind of significant timetalking about what does that
actually mean?
And is it fair or accurate?
Is it an insult, as you suggest,in both directions, both an
insult to pirates and to rockstars?
(47:01):
We then talked about JohnnyDepp's performance based on that
and the way in which he haschanged the way Western culture
imagines pirates, like justcompletely changed the way that
we imagine pirates, which isreally interesting.
There was a footnote, which wewill, I'm sure, also talk about
(47:21):
in the shit we forgot to sayabout the fact that you, we, you
respect Johnny Depp's actingchoices, but not him as a
person.
And the fact that he made thiscreative connection between rock
stars and pirates, rightly orwrongly, modeled his behavior
and movements after KeithRichards.
And now we have this iconiccharacter.
(47:43):
And you name that as like thesoul of creativity or something
like that, like true creativityin that, which I think is worth
naming.
The fact that he and hisdirector had to fight for it.
And now, in your opinion, Idon't think you're wrong, is
part of what made this movie asuccess.
Let's see.
We talked some about thestorytelling, the fact that this
(48:06):
movie is fairly tightly writtenand the ways in which, though it
leans on cliches, it does itwell in ways that are satisfying
so that exposition happenswithout exposition.
There are all these hints todifferent things that the viewer
is like brought along on.
You noted a couple of times thefact that the medallion that we
see in the dream, we now see inthe the now with dust all over
(48:29):
it, which tells us multiplethings about it and all of this
sort of things with from theoverbearing dad to the corset
that like set up a veryplausible setup for then the
sequence of events that follow.
We spent some time talking aboutthe what you named as
performative feminism of theearly 2000s.
(48:52):
So Elizabeth Swan is an exampleof it.
You named it it, you know,especially in from these male
writers, this like veryself-conscious, like, look at
how not like other girls thisgirl is, right?
This tiny 17-year-old girl,which we may get into a little
(49:14):
bit also.
And then lastly, we spent alittle bit of time talking about
the holding both and, and thatthe, that this is part of the
thesis of this movie, I think,because it is repeated so often
and rejected, but theneventually accepted, Bootstrap
Bill was a good man and apirate.
And and with Will saying, like,no, he was a good man, and at
(49:35):
the end accepting good man andpirate can coexist, rule break,
it's not, it's not a it's not aduality in the way that the
rule-following villains, well,sort of villains, of the the
captain, the commodore, and thegovernor would have us believe.
So, listeners, head over to ourPatreon to hear our additional
(49:59):
thoughts, which we will explore.
We are out of time.
Next week, I have no idea whatI'm bringing you.
I don't know either.
Well, we'll find out when I gethere, won't we?
All right, next time.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(50:20):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(50:40):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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