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This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily enjoys analyzing film tropes in the 1987 Steve Martin comedy Roxanne, based on the Edmond Rostand play Cyrano de Bergerac. As a romance loving child, Emily adored the updated storytelling of the remarkable man with a big nose who falls in love with a beautiful woman and helps his handsome but shy lieutenant woo her in his stead.
While much of the comedy from the original French play translates remarkably well into 1980s era Washington state, writer and star Steve Martin wanted the humorous tale to be a true comedy rather than the tragic tale of missed opportunities and self-loathing (and lack of agency for women) that Rostand originally wrote. Which is why Roxanne and CD get to have their (slightly awkward) kiss and happily ever after at the end, and Chris gets to live on in Tahoe with Sandy the cocktail waitress instead of dying nobly.
Throw on your headphones, pour yourself a glass of wine to snork, and take a listen!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://seeingthingssecondhand.com/2022/04/10/roxanne-1987/
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deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, comedy, women, pop culture, storytelling, romance, analyzing, film tropes, movie reviews, film, cultural commentary, feminism, film analysis, gen x childhood, 80s and 90s movies, romcom, nostalgia, steve martin, daryl hannah, cyrano de bergerac
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
What I appreciate about Steve Martin's, because he
wrote this, he wanted to do anupdate and he wanted it to have
a happy ending of Syrano deVergiac is he gave Cyrino the
happy ending.
And he gave Roxanne a lot moreagency.
(00:21):
Yeah.
So and even the like thecompersion aspect of it, he
wanted her to be happy, but hewas not self-sacrificing like
Serena was.
Even in the the moment of him,like at every point, he was
doing these things thinking ofher, and then kind of belatedly
(00:45):
realizing, like, ah, crap.
SPEAKER_02 (00:48):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_03 (01:09):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1987 film Roxanne with mysister, Tracy Guy Decker.
And with you, let's dive in.
So, Trace, I know that you'veseen this film.
(01:30):
It's one of our shared childhoodfilms, but tell me what's in
your head about Roxanne.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
Yeah, so immediately what comes to mind is Steve
Martin in A Prosthetic Nose.
I think I learned about Serenade Bergerac from this film, or
because of this film, I shouldsay.
What I always remember first isSteve Martin in the nose, and
then it's actually at the endafter all of the shenanigans and
the truth has been revealed,when Daryl Hannah, Daryl Hannah,
(01:57):
right?
When Roxanne says that she'sdiscovered this comment, she's
gonna she's naming it Charlie,which was Steve Martin's
character's name, and then shesays, it's my dad's name.
So that's what comes to mind.
Sierrana de Bergerac, SteveMartin in the nose, and
Charlie's my dad's name.
So, but why are we talking aboutit today?
(02:17):
What's at stake for you?
SPEAKER_03 (02:18):
I loved this film very, very much.
And I loved Sierrana deBergerac, which this film
introduced me to.
I actually accidentally stolethe English language version of
Sierrana de Bergerac for myninth grade classroom.
I I borrowed it and neverreturned it.
I think it's still in hermother's house.
(02:40):
I was such a little romantic asa kid.
What's at stake is the theromance of this.
I loved the idea of the factthat what attracted Roxanne to
her paramour was his words andhis mind.
That's part of it.
(03:02):
And then you probably don'tremember this, but another thing
about this movie that has stuckwith me forever was when it was
first out.
I can remember our dad and ourAunt Valerie talking about it
over dinner.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
Huh.
Do you not remember that?
I mean, I remember that dad hadseen it that we talked about it
with dad.
Because I'm pretty sure he's theone who said it was Cyrano.
SPEAKER_03 (03:27):
But I don't remember that, him and Valerie talking.
Because they were talking about,you know, in the modern world,
it doesn't make sense that, youknow, a Cyrano de Bergerac
character wouldn't just haverhinoplasty.
And so I remember them talkingabout they have a reason for it.
Right.
And just kind of talking andjoking.
And for whatever reason, thatstuck with me because it they
(03:50):
talked about movies a lot.
You know, the way that you and Ishare movies, dad shared movies
with his siblings, with hissisters.
I don't know why that inparticular was one of the movie
moments that stuck with me.
We were over there once a weekfor dinner, but the way that dad
and Valerie talked about thismovie was just a like a moment
(04:14):
of playfulness.
SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Well, I get why that might have stuck with you
because that's not exactly howDad and Aunt Valerie like
interacted most of the time.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:23):
Yeah.
I saw the sibling dynamic, theplayful sibling dynamic that was
there underneath, even when itwasn't there.
So that's that's what's that'swhat's in it for me.
Let me give you some postcardsfrom the destination, you know,
some of the things that I wantto talk about.
(04:44):
I want to talk about romance,like what is romantic.
I want to talk aboutmasculinity.
I want to talk about femininityas well, because that's one of
the things that Roxanne says isthat the letters made her feel
feminine.
I want to talk about adaptationbecause the Cierna de Bergerac,
(05:05):
the original, is a tragedy.
I want to talk about what itmeans to love because CD, his
name is C.D.
Bales, and Roxanne calls himCharlie.
She he tells her she can callhim Charlie, but most people
call him C D.
CD loves her, and because ofthat, he facilitates a
relationship with someone else.
(05:25):
And compersion.
It's called compersion.
SPEAKER_02 (05:29):
When you have joy, yeah.
We know it from the polyamorysphere.
Okay.
It's when you have joy for oneof your partners, like having
love or joy, I guess.
SPEAKER_03 (05:39):
I want to talk about beauty, what beauty is, what it
means.
And I want to talk aboutintelligence and comedy.
This is a very funny film, butit's also based on a very funny
play.
So there's there's a lot inthere that I that I want to talk
about.
And mostly I kind of just wantto squeal about this movie
because it's fun.
(06:01):
This is not going to be onewhere uh this is not a revenge
of the nerds where it's justgonna be tearing strips off of
it.
All right.
Well, remind me of the plot.
The film takes place in Nelson.
I had always, for some reason,thought that it was Nelson,
Colorado, but it's actuallysupposed to be Washington,
although it was filmed in, Ibelieve, British Columbia.
(06:24):
But it's this gorgeousmountainous area, and that's
actually one of thecinematography showing all this
wooded place is absolutelybrilliant and beautiful.
And we meet C.D.
Bales, who is the fire chief.
He is the only actual employee.
It is a volunteer firedepartment of this tiny town,
(06:47):
Nelson, Washington.
And he has a giant nose.
When we first meet him, he isgoing to return a tennis racket
to his friend Dixie that he'dborrowed like a year and a half
before.
When he runs into two tourists,because it is a tourist town,
who immediately they're jerks,one of them played by Kevin
(07:07):
Nealan, oddly enough, who startmaking fun of him for his nose.
And so he very easily andhandily like beats them with the
tennis racket.
Oh, yes.
And so we immediately recognizethat CD is just a very
competent, intelligent, funnyman because he's very funny
(07:32):
while he's doing this.
So he goes to meet with Dixie,who is like a local
entrepreneur.
She owns a diner called Dixie's,but she also owns several homes
in the area.
Meanwhile, Roxanne, who hasrented one of Dixie's houses, is
trying to get her cat to comein.
It is the evening.
(07:53):
As she's trying to get the catto come in, she gets locked out
and her robe gets caught in adoor.
And so she is locked out of herhouse completely naked.
So she goes to the firedepartment to say, Can you help
me get in my house?
And CD is the one who answersthe door to her.
(08:14):
She likes hides and is justlike, I'm not wearing any
clothes.
Can you please help me get inthe house?
He's like, Would you like ajacket or something?
And she's like, No, I want to beout here in the freezing cold
and nothing.
And so he takes her at her word.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
So maybe he's a little neurodivergent and
doesn't understand sarcasm.
SPEAKER_03 (08:34):
I don't I I don't know.
Like, I'm not sure if that'slike he's playing that or I
don't know.
Or if he did that on purpose sothat you could I don't know.
In any case, he brings histoolkit and all it has in it is
a credit card.
And it w it he can't use it toJimmy the door open.
(08:56):
And so this is when we learnthat he does like this acrobatic
thing where he climbs up theside of the wall.
Yeah, remember that.
Like he does like parkour to getinto her house and then
basically lets himself in andlike cuts up some cheese and and
some grapes and stuff to likehave a snack in her house.
And they get to talking, and sheexplains that she is an
(09:19):
astronomer getting her PhD, andshe is here because there is a
comet that she may havediscovered that will be passing
over in like something like fiveweeks.
So she's here to look at it.
So they chat and he is clearlysmitten.
(09:39):
She really enjoys talking withhim.
He makes her laugh, but is justvery interested in him as a
friend.
There is a new firefighter whocomes in town.
He is a professional firefighterwho has come in to help train
the volunteers who are alluniversally not good.
(10:01):
They just don't know whatthey're doing.
And there's a lot of very funnymoments where they are just
really bad at what they'redoing.
The new firefighter, his name isChris, and he is just a hunk of
man love.
He is very, very good looking.
And so another one of thevolunteers brings him along and
is like introducing him toeveryone.
(10:21):
Roxanne is out with Dixie, andthey are also friends with
Sandy, who is a bartender, whenthey see Chris, and there's like
some eye flirting between Chrisand Roxanne.
Chris runs away and vomitsbecause he gets so nervous
around women.
(10:42):
It takes a while before CD andChris actually meet each other,
and all the other volunteerfirefighters are telling Chris,
like, don't stare.
He's kind of funny looking, he'sgot a big nose, and he's like,
It's, you know, I'm not thatrude.
I wouldn't stare.
Why are you warning me aboutthis?
There's another point whereRoxanne is out to lunch with
(11:04):
Dixie and Sandy, and she seesChris come in to the same
restaurant.
Again, they make eye contact andhe rushes into the bathroom and
like is panicking.
He like runs the water to try tolike splash some water on his
face, and he like manages tospill it all over his pants, so
he looks like he's peed himself.
I remember that.
Yeah, I remember that.
And so he breaks out of thewindow because Roxanne has
(11:29):
decided, okay, I'm just going tolike, I'll say something to him,
you know, ask him out when hecomes out of the bathroom.
And he never comes out of thebathroom.
Dixie and CD are having lunch atone point, and Sandy comes by
and says, I think Roxanne's inlove and doesn't know it yet.
And CD thinks she means abouthim.
(11:51):
So CD goes to the firehouse, andfinally, even though it's been
like over a week and a half, hefinally meets Chris.
And Chris is like overwhelmedand entranced by his nose.
And he's like, They told me itwas big.
I didn't know it was big.
Oh, I have forgotten.
There was another amazing scene,and this is like direct from the
(12:13):
Edmund Rostand, where he is outat the bar when a guy insults
him, calls him big nose.
And right, and he says, You cando better than that, and then
does all these amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
And I remember asking dad, what did it mean
when CD said that he couldpleasure two women at once?
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
Yes.
And dad being like, I don'tknow, ask someone else.
Like he just didn't want to,like he did not want to deal
with that question.
SPEAKER_03 (12:39):
Yes.
So he's like, I could do, Icould do better.
I could do, you know, better uhinsults.
He's like, well, how manyinsults?
And he's like, here, throw adart.
And the the guy's a dartschampion and gets 20.
It's actually 24 because he hegoes through and he's like, How
many was that?
And he's 14.
I was like, no, actually it was18 if you're if you're actually
(13:00):
keeping count.
But anyway, they're hilarious.
Many of them are directly fromCyrneau de Bergerac and just in
English and updated.
Some of them are a lot dirtier.
And so that was the other thingthat Sandy said was like Roxanne
would not stop talking about howgreat you were.
I think she's in love anddoesn't know it yet.
(13:20):
So that's the other reason whyCD thinks because Roxanne
witnesses the Roxanne witnessesthat incident.
So when Chris is like, they saidit was big, I didn't know it was
big, and then realizes, like, ohmy God, you're gonna kill me
now.
And he's like, Normally I would,but today I'm not going to.
And he's like, Well, why not?
(13:40):
And CD said, Well, yesterday shedidn't, but today she does.
And the next day, Roxanne seeshim and says, Hey, can we talk?
And she, and he's like, Okay,great.
And so they they go off, they'reup in the mountains, and she
says, There's someone I reallywant to get to know better, and
I'm hoping you can help me.
You know, he's he's smart, he'skind, he's funny.
(14:03):
And she had witnessed himpicking up a copy of Being in
Nothingness for another one ofthe firefighters who was too
embarrassed to pick it uphimself.
So she thought he's anintellectual Chris.
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
So Roxanne saw Chris picking up being in nothingness.
SPEAKER_03 (14:18):
Yes.
So, and then she also, and he'shandsome.
And CD says, like, see, isn'tthat wonderful about like when
you have feelings for someone,it can make you think they're
handsome?
And she's like, No, everyonethinks he's handsome.
And he's like, and that's whenhe realizes it's not him.
So she says, Can you maybeencourage him to come talk to
me?
And so he does.
(14:39):
And Chris is like, Oh, that'sgreat.
She wants to talk to me, but ohmy god, I can't talk to women.
I like, I can be myself, I canbe loose with you guys, I can be
funny, but like I just I freezeup around women.
So CD suggests, why don't youwrite her a letter?
So he spends all day working ona letter and it's terrible.
And he brings it over to CD tolook at.
And CD is like, this is not,this is not good enough, and
(15:02):
starts to try to help him.
And Chris is like, why don't youwrite it?
You're you're saying what I feelanyway.
And at first, CD says no, andthen he starts like kind of
getting into it.
Like, so he's like, You writeit, I'll sign it, it'll work.
And she loves it and says, Let'shave a date.
So Chris shows up for a datewith a hunting cap on to hide a
(15:26):
wire so that CD can feed linesto her, which doesn't work
because the radio he's usingstarts picking up like CB Yeah,
from um like police chatter.
And so Chris is such a dimwitty,is just like, we need car 405.
It's like repeating it.
And so uh he ends up taking thecap off and and it says really
(15:50):
stupid, horrible stuff to her,and she storms off and goes back
into her house.
So they come back, both of them,and CD ends up speaking to her
while concealed as Chris, untilbasically he talks her into
Chris going up to make love toher.
Which at first he's like, I didit.
(16:13):
I did it.
He then, and this is another onethat's direct from the original
play, he falls out of a tree infront of there, these four older
women that we see over and overand over again, who are just
kind of these funny old ladies,and he pretends to have been
abducted by aliens with the Doeshe do the suckers?
(16:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, like at his arms up, yeah.
So he pretends to have beenabducted by aliens, and they're
looking for older women to havesex with because they really
know what they're doing, andthey're at Roxanne's house.
And so he's like sending themover there to try to interrupt
things.
And again, that's directly fromthe play.
(16:55):
So the next day, Roxanne comesby the firehouse to say she
there's big news with whatever'sgoing on with her PhD.
She's going to be out of townfor a week.
Could he let Chris know heraddress while she's out of town?
Tell him to write to her.
And so he ends up speaking toChris, kind of hoping that
things didn't go well.
(17:15):
And Chris is like, no, I I well,I couldn't do it a third time.
Poor CD.
So CD writes letters, doesn'ttell Chris about it.
Meanwhile, we see Chris gettinginto a conversation with Sandy
at the bar, and it goes reallywell.
(17:37):
Like he doesn't have anynervousness with her.
And she at some point says,like, I'm kind of friends with
Roxanne, you kind of go withher.
We we shouldn't be talking.
He's like, No, no, no, it'sokay.
And she mentions that she'smoving to Tahoe in a few days to
be a cocktail waitress.
And he shuffles and she's like,Wow, you could be a dealer.
CD is at Dixie's writing aletter when Dixie comes by and
(18:01):
they are are chatting, and shesays, It's clear that you're in
love with Roxanne.
He denies it.
One of her his firefighterscomes in and he's like, Wait a
minute, why are you dressed tobe on call?
And he's like, Oh, well, Roxannecame came back early and he
asked me to take his shift sothat he could go go see her.
(18:22):
And he Chris asked me to takeChris asked me to take his
shift.
And CD's like, oh no, he doesn'tknow about the letters.
So he rushes off to Roxanne'shouse, leaving the letter he's
working on, and Dixieimmediately reads it.
And so there's shenanigans ensuewith him climbing up the walls
and all of that and trying totrying to tell Chris that he
(18:44):
wrote a few letters.
And he's like, How many's a few?
He's like, um, about three aday.
Like, well, she's gone six days,so it's like 18.
He's like, Well, maybe 20 or so.
And so Roxanne's like, Well, doyou know why I came back early?
And he's like, Well, is theletters?
And she's like, They werebeautiful, they were wonderful.
And he's like, Well, and she'ssaying, like, I want you to talk
(19:07):
to me like you did in theletters.
And he basically runs away.
He then goes to meet Sandy, whosays, Are you coming with me or
not?
He's like, I'm coming.
And she says, Did you break upwith her?
And he said, Well, I couldn't doit.
And she says, You have to tellher.
It isn't nice not to.
And he's like, I'll write her aletter.
(19:27):
Do you have any paper?
And then you see Dixie come byand push a letter under the door
of Roxanne's house.
Roxanne calls C D and asks himto come over, and she shows him
both those letters.
Didn't Dixie write?
Yes.
So, but it takes a minute beforethat.
So shows shows him Chris'sletter, which is like, I'm
(19:49):
really sorry if I hurt you.
I met another girl and she'sreal cute too.
Like, it's not good.
And then the other one is she.
Like, please read it.
And then it like and it petersoff at the end.
And she's like, finish it.
And he's like, well, that'sthat's all it says.
And she's like, turn it over.
And then on the other side, itsays, CD wrote this, call me
(20:10):
Dixie.
So they have a huge argumentbecause she's like, You wrote
the letters.
And he doesn't deny it.
Then he kind of slut shames her.
He's like, you know, it didn'tdidn't take much, you know, a
few, few nice words, and you'recounting ceiling tiles, which is
a weird, gross way to say it.
(20:31):
And they end up out on her porchand she's like, You get out of
here.
And he's like, I am out.
You get in.
It's not love.
She goes in, slams the door, andhe goes, like, 10 more seconds
and I'm leaving.
And then she comes out and opensthe door.
She's like, What did you say?
And he said, 10 more seconds andI'm leaving.
(20:53):
She said, Oh.
And he goes, What did you thinkI said?
I thought you said earn moresessions by sleeving.
He's like, What does that mean?
I have no idea.
That's why I asked.
So he's counting.
And then he like starts sniffingthe air.
And he goes to the firehouse andhe smells a fire somewhere.
And his fire department likefollows him as he's sniffing the
(21:15):
air and he finds a buildingthat's on fire.
And they are finally, evenwithout Chris, able to put out
this fire.
And they are afterwards, they'recelebrating at Dixie's.
He says to Dixie, I need to talkto you later.
And so later comes, he's talkingto her, and like he kind of gets
up and she flinches, which Ireally don't like.
(21:37):
And he goes home and you see himup on his roof.
And Roxanne comes to the houseand is quoting one of his
letters to him.
Then she says to him, Charlie,you have a big nose.
And he's like, and she goes, Youhave a big, beautiful nose.
Like, it's not like the flat,boring faces of other people.
(22:01):
And like, I loved your letters.
And, you know, yes, Chris waspretty, but what I fell in love
with was the words.
I fell in love with the mind.
I fell in love with all of that.
So he comes down and they kiss,which takes a minute because it
doesn't work the first couple oftimes.
And she finally negotiates anose.
(22:23):
Yeah.
So then they go into his house,and then that's the moment that
you remember where she hadtalked about how she could name
the comet.
And she'd said she was gonnaname a comet Kowalski, which is
her last name.
She's like, Yeah, Comet Charlie.
He's like, Oh.
He's like, Yeah, that's that'smy father's name.
That's the end of the movie.
What's the word you you weresaying where you you are happy
(22:45):
for your loved ones?
Compersian.
So that is what's going on inthe original Cyrneau de
Bergerac, because it's a tragedyin the original Christian dies
without Roxanne ever finding outthat he's not the one who wrote.
(23:07):
And there is no sex in theoriginal because it was from the
17th century.
And so Cyrno keeps the secretfor 30 years because to him,
Roxanne's happiness is moreimportant than his own.
And I never really knew how tofeel about that in the original.
(23:28):
Like in some ways, I found itutterly romantic, and in other
ways I was just like, Sir No,get over yourself, dude.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
Yeah, that definitely feels like I don't
know.
You know, I always say to you,to me, to anybody who makes the
mistake of asking me for advice,you should always move toward
what you want, not away fromwhat you're afraid of.
Yeah.
Right.
That's very much moving awayfrom what you're afraid of.
Cyrno was.
SPEAKER_03 (23:52):
And had Christian not died, it would be much
clearer to me in the originalstory.
Yeah.
Because there's a like, it's notas fair.
They had decided, we'll let herchoose.
Oh.
And then he died.
And so it's not as fair.
Then she ends up with no love ofher life.
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
So it's not fair to her either.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:15):
And then the end of the play is Cyreno receives a
mortal wound.
He knows he's dying, and he goesto visit Roxanne.
It's 30 years in the future.
She has become a nun, I think,because without Christian, she
does not want to marry.
Ugh.
Sorry.
I know.
I know.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
And so definitely a man, definitely wrong.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (24:40):
Yeah.
So she, she, so he goes to visither.
She's always glad to see him.
Like he has been a steadfastfriend.
They have, they like he has hadlike he's enjoyed the friendship
of this woman that he loves allthis time.
And so he is sitting therebleeding to death without her
knowing it, because he's likehidden the fact that he's dying.
(25:02):
And he's quoting the letters hewrote to her, to her.
And she understands in the lastmoments of his life, oh my God,
I wasn't in love with him.
I was in love with you.
And so there's it's this likegut-wrenching agony of like she
loses him twice.
(25:24):
That's where it's like, no, youshould have told her.
SPEAKER_02 (25:34):
Somebody once told me the truth is not always easy,
but it's always your friend.
Yeah.
unknown (25:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:41):
You know, sometimes your friends need to do a little
tough love, but like the truthis your friend.
SPEAKER_03 (25:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what I appreciate about SteveMartin's, because he wrote this,
he wanted to do an update and hewanted it to have a happy ending
of Serena de Bergiac, is he gaveCyrino the happy ending.
And he gave Roxanne a lot moreagency.
(26:10):
Yeah.
So, and even the like thecompersion aspect of it, he
wanted her to be happy, but hewas not self-sacrificing like
Syrano was.
Even in the the moment of him,like at every point, he was
doing these things thinking ofher, and then kind of belatedly
(26:34):
realizing, like, ah, crap.
I'm not sure that I woulddescribe what happens in Roxanne
as Comperd.
Yeah.
But what I kind of appreciateabout it is he's getting into
the loving aspect of it becausehe gets to do what he wants to
do, which is write her letters,which is tell her how he feels,
(26:57):
because that is actually moreimportant to him than the sex.
And that's not to say the sexisn't important to him.
But he's not thinking about thesex because what he's thinking
about is like, I get to tell thewoman I love how I feel about
her.
And that is amazing.
(27:17):
So there's something so romanticabout that and so fulfilling and
satisfying about that.
It's a farce because of how it'sgoing about, how he's going
about it and how it happens.
But there's something delightfulabout it's all rooted in the
fact that he is so in love andthat his love is pure in a way.
(27:43):
Like he cares about her, not herbody, not her looks, even though
of course he is attracted to herphysically, that what is
important to him is capturingthat with words.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
I mean, yes, and she's friggin' Daryl Hannah, and
he met her when she was naked.
So I feel like that takes away alittle bit of your point here.
Yes.
I mean, I like it.
I'm glad that Steve Martin madethis Roxanne a brilliant
(28:21):
astronomer working on her PhDand not just some pretty face.
It is more than just the factthat she's beautiful.
Like there is a deeperconnection that's about their
intellect and all of thosethings.
And I think to his credit, thatthat's the way he wrote it.
Great, great.
But your point that this issomehow like pure and and like
not about the physical isundermined by the casting and by
(28:46):
the fact that he meets her nakedthe first time he meets her.
SPEAKER_03 (28:49):
Well, what I'm what I mean is every other man we see
when talking to any womanobjectifies them just
completely.
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
Right.
And like Chris doesn't give ashit that she's an astronomer,
right?
Like that's not why he likesher.
He likes her because she'spretty, because she's Daryl
Hannah.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (29:07):
And like we see her deal very ablely with people who
like objectify her.
And we see her like talk abouthow like I just I want someone
with a brain.
I want someone who is not justabout like Daryl Hannah knows,
or Roxanne knows she's DarylHannah.
(29:28):
Roxanne knows that she'sgorgeous, and like that is not
what she wants from an encounterwith a man.
She she doesn't want a man who'sjust gonna be like, you're
pretty.
Like, she doesn't want that.
And she knows she's pretty.
She doesn't need someone to tellher that.
She doesn't need someone to talkabout her looks.
(29:49):
And we see only some of or hearonly some of the things that CD
writes to her.
One of them, the the letter atthe end that he didn't finish.
He writes about You changed yourhair.
Yeah, you changed your hair onlya little bit.
Remember.
Um, but I noticed.
But I noticed.
And it was like I like staringat the sun, because every time I
(30:10):
close my eyes, it's there, it'simprinted on my eyelids.
And so, like, that is about howshe looks, but it's not about
her looks, it's about how shepresents herself, it's about her
choices still.
That's an interesting take.
And so that to me is for someonewho constantly gets praise for
(30:36):
her looks, that's gotta be likeintoxicating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
So I usually take some notes on where you want to
go, and we didn't do that beforewe hit record today.
Yeah.
But I'm trying to remember someof the postcards that you gave
me.
You wanted to talk aboutmasculinity and femininity.
You wanna go there?
SPEAKER_03 (30:57):
Yeah.
So in terms of masculinity, CDis interesting in that he is
like he has mastered a lot ofdifferent aspects of
masculinity.
Like he wins that fightinitially against two guys.
He can eviscerate people withhis words.
(31:17):
The scene that I mentioned wherehe does the 20, which is
actually 24 insults against theguy.
Once he's done that, the guytries to like then make it a
physical fight.
And he, while walking away, CDlike punches, like hits him in
the balls and then punches himin the face.
And then he goes up to Roxanne.
(31:38):
Like over his shoulder.
And then he goes up to Roxanne.
He's like, has he fallen yet?
And she like looks over, she'slike, now yes.
And then he's like, Great,thanks.
And he walks away.
So, like, and this is SteveMartin, who I don't know exactly
how old he was, but he was about40, I think.
And, you know, slender,gray-haired guy, big nose.
(32:01):
So, like, he can fight, he's agood manager, like, because he's
he's he's a boss, he's a goodcook.
They establish that.
He can write, so he's verysmart, he's very funny.
So, like, he's kind of like thetop of his game in all the ways
that a man might want tocultivate himself.
(32:22):
Okay.
But he is very clearly verysensitive about his nose.
And it's interesting because itseems like he's cultivated all
these like masculine skillsbecause of it.
Because of the nose.
Because of the nose.
And now, some of it, like a lotof comedians were, you know,
(32:42):
bullied kids.
So, like, if you if you are theone making the jokes, then like
they're not laughing at you,they're laughing with you, you
know, that sort of thing.
Sure.
But it's interesting about thelike the this idea of like
masculinity, he's not, hedoesn't exact he doesn't have
the kind of toxic masculinityyou see from so many other
people.
(33:03):
You see other men being liketoxic to women, saying things
like I don't remember, like, areyou playmate of the month from
July 85 to women as a way offlirting with us?
As a pickup line.
As a pickup line.
Yeah, it's gross.
And you see the mayor played byFred Willard, but he's great in
(33:27):
the role, kind of like puttingpeople down in a very Fred
Willard kind of way.
I would rather pee with thepeople of Nelson than with the
finest people of the world.
So there's there's this kind oftoxicity that that CeeDee
avoids.
You know, his best friend isDixie, who's played by Shelly
Duval, by the way, who I love.
(33:49):
Oh, and there's there's thiswonderful moment where there is
a kid up on the roof of hishouse who's been up there for a
day.
They send CD up because he's thethe fire chief to get him down.
And so he climbs, climbs upbecause that's what he does and
talks to him.
And the kid is a heavy kid.
He says, Why are you up here?
(34:09):
What's going on?
He's like, kids at cool schoolcall me porky.
And CD immediately goes, Goddamn it, why do they have to do
that?
He's like, Oh, I shouldn't havesaid that in front of you.
And he talks to the kid, and thekid ends up calling the other
kids at school bastards.
He's like, Oh, I shouldn't havesaid that in front of you.
The kid says that.
And so, and he's very, I wasworried when I saw that because
I was just like, Oh crap, wherehow does this go?
(34:32):
And it goes fine.
It really goes fine.
The kid says to CD, like, do Ihave to come down now?
He's like, No, you can stay uphere.
We'll stay up here together.
And like, just is is like opento just having the kid be.
SPEAKER_02 (34:46):
So do you think here's where maybe you're going
with this when you like the wayyou mentioned comedians being
bullied.
Like, do you think that withinthe universe of this movie, that
if CD had been born with atypical nose, that maybe he
wouldn't be so non-toxicallymasculine?
Possibly.
Possibly.
SPEAKER_03 (35:07):
I think that it has definitely made him
compassionate.
Like that made him the rightperson to go up to talk to the
kid on the roof.
Mm-hmm.
Who was being bullied.
Who is being bullied, yeah.
And I think it also made himmore likely to be Roxanne's
equal.
Mm-hmm.
Because he has worked so hard toimprove his thinking, improve
(35:31):
his wordplay, improve hisphysicality, all of that.
Yeah.
But it also has made him veryself-loathing rather than like
entitled, which is what the menwe otherwise see exhibiting is
that kind of entitlement.
I mean, uh it not exactly.
(35:52):
Like Chris, there's somethingkind of adorable about the fact
that he like vomits the firsttime he sees Roxanne.
Right.
And there was a reviewer I readwho talked about what works for
this film is that Sandy andChris fit together.
And Roxanne and CD fit together.
(36:14):
They are appropriate.
And I have always liked that.
Like that when Chris meetsSandy, he's able to talk to her.
And his jokes make her laugh,even though they're much less
intelligent than CD's jokes.
Like he's having lunch at herbar and he's like, Yeah, I'll
(36:34):
have a beer, and she's like,draft.
And he's like, Oh, a little, butI'll put my sweater on if it
gets too cold.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Chris says that.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Chris says that.
So, like, that's a solid B pluspun.
Sure.
But she laughs really hard atit.
And then, like, she's reallyimpressed with the fact that
he's been to San Francisco andNew York City.
And the fact that he can shufflecars well.
Yes.
Yeah.
And then he's originally fromAlbuquerque.
And the reason I know how tospell it is because, like, he he
(37:01):
says he's from Albuquerque, andshe's like,
A-L-B-U-Q-U-A-L-B-U-Q-U-E-R-Q-U-E.
She's like, Oh, it's an old barbet.
So I know how to spellAlbuquerque because of that.
And so, like, they fit togetherin a way that he would never fit
with Roxanne.
Right.
And I felt like that, that'spart of the thesis of this film,
(37:22):
is that love should be a meetingof the minds in a way.
SPEAKER_02 (37:26):
And I think it's, yes, right.
There are people to whom you aresuit.
I I think it's it's even morethan that.
Yes, I think that's right.
It's a meeting of the minds, butit's actually more than that.
There are people to whom you aresuited physically.
And there are people to whom youare suited intellectually.
And there are people to whom youmay be suited both, but the
intellectual should drive.
(37:48):
I think that's the thesis,right?
Like that's the suggestion here.
Because Chris and Roxanne aresuited physically.
Like they like the way oneanother look, but that's not the
basis for a long-term romance.
Yeah.
Says this film.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:04):
I do want to also talk about femininity.
SPEAKER_02 (38:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's talk about that.
Because you've pointed out thefact that Roxanne here is
someone who's constantly gettingpraised for the way that she
looks.
And yet these letters made herfeel feminine.
SPEAKER_03 (38:17):
So let's talk about that.
So I didn't remember that fromthe film.
You know, she says, I loved yourletters.
They made me feel alive.
They made me feel feminine.
And I was really struck by that.
Cause I was like, what does itmean that something made you
feel feminine?
I mean, the movie doesn't tellus.
It doesn't tell us what shemeans by that to feel feminine.
(38:39):
And this is, you know, a30-year-old movie, right?
No, 40, nearly 40-year-oldmovie, excuse me.
So, you know, this is notsomeone who has any questions
about her femininity.
But it made her feel desired, Ithink.
SPEAKER_02 (38:56):
It's more than that, though, because I think someone
who gets all the praise for herlooks constantly feels desired.
Yeah.
But this is actually aninteresting nuance from this
film that was, I'm sure not likesuper intentional, right?
But like as a smart woman,right?
Like it's complicated.
You know, I recently sawsomething like, you know, it was
(39:19):
some stupid thing, like some brotalking about different things
that he would judge women on.
And like, he's not even in theorbit.
Like this dude would neverdesire me.
And I don't want to be desiredby this.
You know what I mean?
And yet feeling desired, beingdesirable is something we all
want.
But it's complicated, I think,for a smart woman.
(39:42):
Because if a smart woman feelsas though she is desired for her
looks and body alone, it's likenot the whole self.
It's like I have to check thething that makes me me at the
door in order for you to desireme.
Yes.
And that that's not real.
And so for her, for Roxanne tosay that these beautiful
(40:06):
intellectual letters made mefeel feminine.
I'm doing this in real time.
Makes me like project that shefelt desired in her totality,
which for smart women, I thinkyou and I can say by experience,
is fairly rare.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:27):
Yeah.
This reminds me of PierceBrosnan, is married to an
absolutely gorgeous woman whohad been a model, but she, as
many of us with bodies do, hasgained weight and is now an
absolutely gorgeous woman who'sprobably about 40 or 50 pounds
more than she was when they gotmarried.
And Pierce Brosnan is stillclearly very much in love with
(40:50):
her.
Like every time you see picturesof them that they're clearly
devoted to each other.
He is someone who has aged.
His genetics have made it thathe is gorgeous at every age.
And I've seen people talk aboutlike really shitty, horrible
things, like why hasn't heupgraded and bullshit like that?
(41:10):
And that's kind of what you whatI feel like you're talking
about.
Like where it is very clear thatthe love and the desire between
the two of them is about theessence of each other.
SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
I mean, the physicality matters.
Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't.
Right?
You changed your hair and likethe sun, it's in burns into my
brain.
Like that's about the way shelooks.
Yes.
But it's not all right.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
It's backed up.
Yes.
And like the essence of who youare includes how you look.
Right.
And I feel like also feelingfeminine is being able to let go
of that, like, oh, you only likeme because of how I look.
And just enjoy the like, oh, yousee how smart I am and you like
(41:59):
how I look.
So like that feeling feminine islike, oh, I can enjoy the fact
that you like how I look.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
Yeah.
Which is also rare.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Shout out to all of my partnerswho make me feel that way.
We're running a little short ontime.
I want to make sure you havetime to talk about anything.
So you in your postcards, youalso mentioned romance.
Have we talked about that to theextent that you wanted to?
SPEAKER_03 (42:29):
Yes.
I well, the way that C D goesabout romancing Roxanne is so
intentional because he writes.
He writes letters and then hespeaks to her.
And that is very rare in themodern world because I mean, uh
partially because, like, whowrites letters anymore?
(42:51):
Even in 1987.
SPEAKER_00 (42:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:54):
It's also like I was trying to think of what the
modern equivalent would be.
I like you couldn't do this in2026.
SPEAKER_02 (43:02):
That's like text threads or something.
SPEAKER_03 (43:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the thinking through what youwant to say and thinking through
how you want to presentyourself, because that's really
what this is.
Like, that's what Serena deBergerac is about, is about how
you present yourself to anotherhuman being.
There's something very headyabout that and very romantic
(43:27):
about it.
There's a reason why we lovethis story and we keep retelling
it, and there's iterations of itover and over and over again.
And there was a version of itwith Peter Dinklage as Cyrano.
So instead of a nose, it'sbecause Peter Dinklage is a
little person, which a littleperson.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
And because we can allunderstand that feeling of not
(43:48):
being enough for our love.
And then that wanting to presentourselves in the best possible
light.
So there's something both likeromantic and tragic about it.
And the fact that Steve Martinwas able to make it romantic and
hilarious.
SPEAKER_02 (44:04):
Yeah, that comedy was another thing you wanted to
talk about.
SPEAKER_03 (44:06):
Yes.
This is a very funny movie.
And while Edmund Rostand wasfunny as well, I mean it's it's
a it's a funny play becauseSerena de Bergrac is a funny
person.
It's kind of amazing the amountof humor that Steve Martin is
able to wring out of thesemoments, especially because I
don't like cringe humor.
(44:27):
Right.
And I still love this movie.
Like loved it to the point whereI watched it over and over again
as a kid.
And part of that is just SteveMartin is so charming.
He is really charming.
He's so charming.
But the comedy of thatmisunderstanding comedy, the
comedy of one person standing infor another while also being
(44:50):
incredibly romantic.
Oh man, that's my catnip.
Like, I don't like how do you dothat?
That's incredible.
Yeah.
All right.
Any final points before I try toreflect back?
I will tell you, when I'm tryingto get my son's attention and I
can't get them to listen to me,in my head, boys, boys, the
(45:14):
ladder's up.
Boys, boys, the ladder is up.
Runs through my head.
Because when they're turningfrom trying to get snowball the
cat from the uh tree, they'regoing with the ladder with the
ladder up.
It's just that lives rent-freein my head.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_02 (45:32):
All right.
So let me see if I can reflectback to you some of your deep
thoughts about this film Roxanneby Steve Martin, which is a
retelling, a modern retelling ofthe Sierra No de Bergerac play.
Some of the things that we spenta lot of time actually talking
about, like talking aboutromance and femininity and like
what is more important and sortof how people are suited.
(45:54):
And we talked about sort ofphysical, being suited
physically and being suitedintellectually.
And the hypothesis of this filmis that the intellectual match
is the one that matters, is theone that is sort of more real
and drives true love.
Like that's what love actuallyis, is that is where the
(46:16):
intellectual match is primary.
We also spent some time talkingabout femininity and what it
means for Roxanne to have saidthat these letters made her feel
feminine.
And you and I both had some, Ithink, some like sympathy and
like empathy to the idea thatfor a smart woman to have her
(46:36):
intellect be a part of theattraction and not sort of like,
I like you even though you'resmart, is actually sort of rare
and makes sense that that wouldfeel if feeling feminine for
this straight woman is also partand parcel to feeling desired
and desirable.
That makes a lot of sense to us.
(46:57):
On the other side of the coin,we talked about masculinity and
the fact that this character, CD has sort of mastered a lot of
the sort of primary areas ofmasculinity and done so in a way
that has not made him toxicmostly, which we wondered if
that's in fact because of thehuge nose, about which he is
(47:20):
very sensitive, but also whichforced him to kind of learn
these other skills potentially,which is an interesting sort of
hypothesis or assumptionunderlying the film and possibly
even the source material.
You talked about the romanticpiece of the tragedy of the
(47:41):
original play that on reflectiondoes not actually feel really
healthy.
It removes agency from Roxanneentirely when Cyrene O chooses
not to tell her that he hadwritten the letters.
And it also denies both of them30 years of potential happiness.
And then we also spoke a bitabout comedy and the way that
(48:06):
this film and the sourcematerial is so very funny.
Mixed up with romance is yourcatnip.
And also, I think in theoriginal was sort of the foil to
the tragedy.
And in this film, like was areally interesting vehicle for
very charming Steve Martin.
I'm sure I'm forgettingsomething, but we are kind of
(48:27):
out of time.
So any like really importantthing for us to note.
This is well worth the rewatch.
So next week, Emma, I'm gonnabring you my deep thoughts about
the animated series Daria.
Cool.
I'm looking forward to that.
And listener, if you want tohear some of the shit that we
forgot to say in this episode,head on over to our Patreon.
You will have to pony up, but weare going to hop on another
(48:48):
recording and record the shitthat we forgot to say.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
(49:10):
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
(49:33):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
What I appreciate about Steve Martin's, because he
wrote this, he wanted to do anupdate and he wanted it to have
a happy ending of Syrano deVergiac is he gave Cyrino the
happy ending.
And he gave Roxanne a lot moreagency.
(00:21):
Yeah.
So and even the like thecompersion aspect of it, he
wanted her to be happy, but hewas not self-sacrificing like
Serena was.
Even in the the moment of him,like at every point, he was
doing these things thinking ofher, and then kind of belatedly
(00:45):
realizing, like, ah, crap.
SPEAKER_02 (00:48):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_03 (01:09):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1987 film Roxanne with mysister, Tracy Guy Decker.
And with you, let's dive in.
So, Trace, I know that you'veseen this film.
(01:30):
It's one of our shared childhoodfilms, but tell me what's in
your head about Roxanne.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
Yeah, so immediately what comes to mind is Steve
Martin in A Prosthetic Nose.
I think I learned about Serenade Bergerac from this film, or
because of this film, I shouldsay.
What I always remember first isSteve Martin in the nose, and
then it's actually at the endafter all of the shenanigans and
the truth has been revealed,when Daryl Hannah, Daryl Hannah,
(01:57):
right?
When Roxanne says that she'sdiscovered this comment, she's
gonna she's naming it Charlie,which was Steve Martin's
character's name, and then shesays, it's my dad's name.
So that's what comes to mind.
Sierrana de Bergerac, SteveMartin in the nose, and
Charlie's my dad's name.
So, but why are we talking aboutit today?
(02:17):
What's at stake for you?
SPEAKER_03 (02:18):
I loved this film very, very much.
And I loved Sierrana deBergerac, which this film
introduced me to.
I actually accidentally stolethe English language version of
Sierrana de Bergerac for myninth grade classroom.
I I borrowed it and neverreturned it.
I think it's still in hermother's house.
(02:40):
I was such a little romantic asa kid.
What's at stake is the theromance of this.
I loved the idea of the factthat what attracted Roxanne to
her paramour was his words andhis mind.
That's part of it.
(03:02):
And then you probably don'tremember this, but another thing
about this movie that has stuckwith me forever was when it was
first out.
I can remember our dad and ourAunt Valerie talking about it
over dinner.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
Huh.
Do you not remember that?
I mean, I remember that dad hadseen it that we talked about it
with dad.
Because I'm pretty sure he's theone who said it was Cyrano.
SPEAKER_03 (03:27):
But I don't remember that, him and Valerie talking.
Because they were talking about,you know, in the modern world,
it doesn't make sense that, youknow, a Cyrano de Bergerac
character wouldn't just haverhinoplasty.
And so I remember them talkingabout they have a reason for it.
Right.
And just kind of talking andjoking.
And for whatever reason, thatstuck with me because it they
(03:50):
talked about movies a lot.
You know, the way that you and Ishare movies, dad shared movies
with his siblings, with hissisters.
I don't know why that inparticular was one of the movie
moments that stuck with me.
We were over there once a weekfor dinner, but the way that dad
and Valerie talked about thismovie was just a like a moment
(04:14):
of playfulness.
SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Well, I get why that might have stuck with you
because that's not exactly howDad and Aunt Valerie like
interacted most of the time.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (04:23):
Yeah.
I saw the sibling dynamic, theplayful sibling dynamic that was
there underneath, even when itwasn't there.
So that's that's what's that'swhat's in it for me.
Let me give you some postcardsfrom the destination, you know,
some of the things that I wantto talk about.
(04:44):
I want to talk about romance,like what is romantic.
I want to talk aboutmasculinity.
I want to talk about femininityas well, because that's one of
the things that Roxanne says isthat the letters made her feel
feminine.
I want to talk about adaptationbecause the Cierna de Bergerac,
(05:05):
the original, is a tragedy.
I want to talk about what itmeans to love because CD, his
name is C.D.
Bales, and Roxanne calls himCharlie.
She he tells her she can callhim Charlie, but most people
call him C D.
CD loves her, and because ofthat, he facilitates a
relationship with someone else.
(05:25):
And compersion.
It's called compersion.
SPEAKER_02 (05:29):
When you have joy, yeah.
We know it from the polyamorysphere.
Okay.
It's when you have joy for oneof your partners, like having
love or joy, I guess.
SPEAKER_03 (05:39):
I want to talk about beauty, what beauty is, what it
means.
And I want to talk aboutintelligence and comedy.
This is a very funny film, butit's also based on a very funny
play.
So there's there's a lot inthere that I that I want to talk
about.
And mostly I kind of just wantto squeal about this movie
because it's fun.
(06:01):
This is not going to be onewhere uh this is not a revenge
of the nerds where it's justgonna be tearing strips off of
it.
All right.
Well, remind me of the plot.
The film takes place in Nelson.
I had always, for some reason,thought that it was Nelson,
Colorado, but it's actuallysupposed to be Washington,
although it was filmed in, Ibelieve, British Columbia.
(06:24):
But it's this gorgeousmountainous area, and that's
actually one of thecinematography showing all this
wooded place is absolutelybrilliant and beautiful.
And we meet C.D.
Bales, who is the fire chief.
He is the only actual employee.
It is a volunteer firedepartment of this tiny town,
(06:47):
Nelson, Washington.
And he has a giant nose.
When we first meet him, he isgoing to return a tennis racket
to his friend Dixie that he'dborrowed like a year and a half
before.
When he runs into two tourists,because it is a tourist town,
who immediately they're jerks,one of them played by Kevin
(07:07):
Nealan, oddly enough, who startmaking fun of him for his nose.
And so he very easily andhandily like beats them with the
tennis racket.
Oh, yes.
And so we immediately recognizethat CD is just a very
competent, intelligent, funnyman because he's very funny
(07:32):
while he's doing this.
So he goes to meet with Dixie,who is like a local
entrepreneur.
She owns a diner called Dixie's,but she also owns several homes
in the area.
Meanwhile, Roxanne, who hasrented one of Dixie's houses, is
trying to get her cat to comein.
It is the evening.
(07:53):
As she's trying to get the catto come in, she gets locked out
and her robe gets caught in adoor.
And so she is locked out of herhouse completely naked.
So she goes to the firedepartment to say, Can you help
me get in my house?
And CD is the one who answersthe door to her.
(08:14):
She likes hides and is justlike, I'm not wearing any
clothes.
Can you please help me get inthe house?
He's like, Would you like ajacket or something?
And she's like, No, I want to beout here in the freezing cold
and nothing.
And so he takes her at her word.
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
So maybe he's a little neurodivergent and
doesn't understand sarcasm.
SPEAKER_03 (08:34):
I don't I I don't know.
Like, I'm not sure if that'slike he's playing that or I
don't know.
Or if he did that on purpose sothat you could I don't know.
In any case, he brings histoolkit and all it has in it is
a credit card.
And it w it he can't use it toJimmy the door open.
(08:56):
And so this is when we learnthat he does like this acrobatic
thing where he climbs up theside of the wall.
Yeah, remember that.
Like he does like parkour to getinto her house and then
basically lets himself in andlike cuts up some cheese and and
some grapes and stuff to likehave a snack in her house.
And they get to talking, and sheexplains that she is an
(09:19):
astronomer getting her PhD, andshe is here because there is a
comet that she may havediscovered that will be passing
over in like something like fiveweeks.
So she's here to look at it.
So they chat and he is clearlysmitten.
(09:39):
She really enjoys talking withhim.
He makes her laugh, but is justvery interested in him as a
friend.
There is a new firefighter whocomes in town.
He is a professional firefighterwho has come in to help train
the volunteers who are alluniversally not good.
(10:01):
They just don't know whatthey're doing.
And there's a lot of very funnymoments where they are just
really bad at what they'redoing.
The new firefighter, his name isChris, and he is just a hunk of
man love.
He is very, very good looking.
And so another one of thevolunteers brings him along and
is like introducing him toeveryone.
(10:21):
Roxanne is out with Dixie, andthey are also friends with
Sandy, who is a bartender, whenthey see Chris, and there's like
some eye flirting between Chrisand Roxanne.
Chris runs away and vomitsbecause he gets so nervous
around women.
(10:42):
It takes a while before CD andChris actually meet each other,
and all the other volunteerfirefighters are telling Chris,
like, don't stare.
He's kind of funny looking, he'sgot a big nose, and he's like,
It's, you know, I'm not thatrude.
I wouldn't stare.
Why are you warning me aboutthis?
There's another point whereRoxanne is out to lunch with
(11:04):
Dixie and Sandy, and she seesChris come in to the same
restaurant.
Again, they make eye contact andhe rushes into the bathroom and
like is panicking.
He like runs the water to try tolike splash some water on his
face, and he like manages tospill it all over his pants, so
he looks like he's peed himself.
I remember that.
Yeah, I remember that.
And so he breaks out of thewindow because Roxanne has
(11:29):
decided, okay, I'm just going tolike, I'll say something to him,
you know, ask him out when hecomes out of the bathroom.
And he never comes out of thebathroom.
Dixie and CD are having lunch atone point, and Sandy comes by
and says, I think Roxanne's inlove and doesn't know it yet.
And CD thinks she means abouthim.
(11:51):
So CD goes to the firehouse, andfinally, even though it's been
like over a week and a half, hefinally meets Chris.
And Chris is like overwhelmedand entranced by his nose.
And he's like, They told me itwas big.
I didn't know it was big.
Oh, I have forgotten.
There was another amazing scene,and this is like direct from the
(12:13):
Edmund Rostand, where he is outat the bar when a guy insults
him, calls him big nose.
And right, and he says, You cando better than that, and then
does all these amazing.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
And I remember asking dad, what did it mean
when CD said that he couldpleasure two women at once?
SPEAKER_00 (12:31):
Yes.
And dad being like, I don'tknow, ask someone else.
Like he just didn't want to,like he did not want to deal
with that question.
SPEAKER_03 (12:39):
Yes.
So he's like, I could do, Icould do better.
I could do, you know, better uhinsults.
He's like, well, how manyinsults?
And he's like, here, throw adart.
And the the guy's a dartschampion and gets 20.
It's actually 24 because he hegoes through and he's like, How
many was that?
And he's 14.
I was like, no, actually it was18 if you're if you're actually
(13:00):
keeping count.
But anyway, they're hilarious.
Many of them are directly fromCyrneau de Bergerac and just in
English and updated.
Some of them are a lot dirtier.
And so that was the other thingthat Sandy said was like Roxanne
would not stop talking about howgreat you were.
I think she's in love anddoesn't know it yet.
(13:20):
So that's the other reason whyCD thinks because Roxanne
witnesses the Roxanne witnessesthat incident.
So when Chris is like, they saidit was big, I didn't know it was
big, and then realizes, like, ohmy God, you're gonna kill me
now.
And he's like, Normally I would,but today I'm not going to.
And he's like, Well, why not?
(13:40):
And CD said, Well, yesterday shedidn't, but today she does.
And the next day, Roxanne seeshim and says, Hey, can we talk?
And she, and he's like, Okay,great.
And so they they go off, they'reup in the mountains, and she
says, There's someone I reallywant to get to know better, and
I'm hoping you can help me.
You know, he's he's smart, he'skind, he's funny.
(14:03):
And she had witnessed himpicking up a copy of Being in
Nothingness for another one ofthe firefighters who was too
embarrassed to pick it uphimself.
So she thought he's anintellectual Chris.
SPEAKER_02 (14:15):
So Roxanne saw Chris picking up being in nothingness.
SPEAKER_03 (14:18):
Yes.
So, and then she also, and he'shandsome.
And CD says, like, see, isn'tthat wonderful about like when
you have feelings for someone,it can make you think they're
handsome?
And she's like, No, everyonethinks he's handsome.
And he's like, and that's whenhe realizes it's not him.
So she says, Can you maybeencourage him to come talk to
me?
And so he does.
(14:39):
And Chris is like, Oh, that'sgreat.
She wants to talk to me, but ohmy god, I can't talk to women.
I like, I can be myself, I canbe loose with you guys, I can be
funny, but like I just I freezeup around women.
So CD suggests, why don't youwrite her a letter?
So he spends all day working ona letter and it's terrible.
And he brings it over to CD tolook at.
And CD is like, this is not,this is not good enough, and
(15:02):
starts to try to help him.
And Chris is like, why don't youwrite it?
You're you're saying what I feelanyway.
And at first, CD says no, andthen he starts like kind of
getting into it.
Like, so he's like, You writeit, I'll sign it, it'll work.
And she loves it and says, Let'shave a date.
So Chris shows up for a datewith a hunting cap on to hide a
(15:26):
wire so that CD can feed linesto her, which doesn't work
because the radio he's usingstarts picking up like CB Yeah,
from um like police chatter.
And so Chris is such a dimwitty,is just like, we need car 405.
It's like repeating it.
And so uh he ends up taking thecap off and and it says really
(15:50):
stupid, horrible stuff to her,and she storms off and goes back
into her house.
So they come back, both of them,and CD ends up speaking to her
while concealed as Chris, untilbasically he talks her into
Chris going up to make love toher.
Which at first he's like, I didit.
(16:13):
I did it.
He then, and this is another onethat's direct from the original
play, he falls out of a tree infront of there, these four older
women that we see over and overand over again, who are just
kind of these funny old ladies,and he pretends to have been
abducted by aliens with the Doeshe do the suckers?
(16:34):
Yeah.
Yeah, like at his arms up, yeah.
So he pretends to have beenabducted by aliens, and they're
looking for older women to havesex with because they really
know what they're doing, andthey're at Roxanne's house.
And so he's like sending themover there to try to interrupt
things.
And again, that's directly fromthe play.
(16:55):
So the next day, Roxanne comesby the firehouse to say she
there's big news with whatever'sgoing on with her PhD.
She's going to be out of townfor a week.
Could he let Chris know heraddress while she's out of town?
Tell him to write to her.
And so he ends up speaking toChris, kind of hoping that
things didn't go well.
(17:15):
And Chris is like, no, I I well,I couldn't do it a third time.
Poor CD.
So CD writes letters, doesn'ttell Chris about it.
Meanwhile, we see Chris gettinginto a conversation with Sandy
at the bar, and it goes reallywell.
(17:37):
Like he doesn't have anynervousness with her.
And she at some point says,like, I'm kind of friends with
Roxanne, you kind of go withher.
We we shouldn't be talking.
He's like, No, no, no, it'sokay.
And she mentions that she'smoving to Tahoe in a few days to
be a cocktail waitress.
And he shuffles and she's like,Wow, you could be a dealer.
CD is at Dixie's writing aletter when Dixie comes by and
(18:01):
they are are chatting, and shesays, It's clear that you're in
love with Roxanne.
He denies it.
One of her his firefighterscomes in and he's like, Wait a
minute, why are you dressed tobe on call?
And he's like, Oh, well, Roxannecame came back early and he
asked me to take his shift sothat he could go go see her.
(18:22):
And he Chris asked me to takeChris asked me to take his
shift.
And CD's like, oh no, he doesn'tknow about the letters.
So he rushes off to Roxanne'shouse, leaving the letter he's
working on, and Dixieimmediately reads it.
And so there's shenanigans ensuewith him climbing up the walls
and all of that and trying totrying to tell Chris that he
(18:44):
wrote a few letters.
And he's like, How many's a few?
He's like, um, about three aday.
Like, well, she's gone six days,so it's like 18.
He's like, Well, maybe 20 or so.
And so Roxanne's like, Well, doyou know why I came back early?
And he's like, Well, is theletters?
And she's like, They werebeautiful, they were wonderful.
And he's like, Well, and she'ssaying, like, I want you to talk
(19:07):
to me like you did in theletters.
And he basically runs away.
He then goes to meet Sandy, whosays, Are you coming with me or
not?
He's like, I'm coming.
And she says, Did you break upwith her?
And he said, Well, I couldn't doit.
And she says, You have to tellher.
It isn't nice not to.
And he's like, I'll write her aletter.
(19:27):
Do you have any paper?
And then you see Dixie come byand push a letter under the door
of Roxanne's house.
Roxanne calls C D and asks himto come over, and she shows him
both those letters.
Didn't Dixie write?
Yes.
So, but it takes a minute beforethat.
So shows shows him Chris'sletter, which is like, I'm
(19:49):
really sorry if I hurt you.
I met another girl and she'sreal cute too.
Like, it's not good.
And then the other one is she.
Like, please read it.
And then it like and it petersoff at the end.
And she's like, finish it.
And he's like, well, that'sthat's all it says.
And she's like, turn it over.
And then on the other side, itsays, CD wrote this, call me
(20:10):
Dixie.
So they have a huge argumentbecause she's like, You wrote
the letters.
And he doesn't deny it.
Then he kind of slut shames her.
He's like, you know, it didn'tdidn't take much, you know, a
few, few nice words, and you'recounting ceiling tiles, which is
a weird, gross way to say it.
(20:31):
And they end up out on her porchand she's like, You get out of
here.
And he's like, I am out.
You get in.
It's not love.
She goes in, slams the door, andhe goes, like, 10 more seconds
and I'm leaving.
And then she comes out and opensthe door.
She's like, What did you say?
And he said, 10 more seconds andI'm leaving.
(20:53):
She said, Oh.
And he goes, What did you thinkI said?
I thought you said earn moresessions by sleeving.
He's like, What does that mean?
I have no idea.
That's why I asked.
So he's counting.
And then he like starts sniffingthe air.
And he goes to the firehouse andhe smells a fire somewhere.
And his fire department likefollows him as he's sniffing the
(21:15):
air and he finds a buildingthat's on fire.
And they are finally, evenwithout Chris, able to put out
this fire.
And they are afterwards, they'recelebrating at Dixie's.
He says to Dixie, I need to talkto you later.
And so later comes, he's talkingto her, and like he kind of gets
up and she flinches, which Ireally don't like.
(21:37):
And he goes home and you see himup on his roof.
And Roxanne comes to the houseand is quoting one of his
letters to him.
Then she says to him, Charlie,you have a big nose.
And he's like, and she goes, Youhave a big, beautiful nose.
Like, it's not like the flat,boring faces of other people.
(22:01):
And like, I loved your letters.
And, you know, yes, Chris waspretty, but what I fell in love
with was the words.
I fell in love with the mind.
I fell in love with all of that.
So he comes down and they kiss,which takes a minute because it
doesn't work the first couple oftimes.
And she finally negotiates anose.
(22:23):
Yeah.
So then they go into his house,and then that's the moment that
you remember where she hadtalked about how she could name
the comet.
And she'd said she was gonnaname a comet Kowalski, which is
her last name.
She's like, Yeah, Comet Charlie.
He's like, Oh.
He's like, Yeah, that's that'smy father's name.
That's the end of the movie.
What's the word you you weresaying where you you are happy
(22:45):
for your loved ones?
Compersian.
So that is what's going on inthe original Cyrneau de
Bergerac, because it's a tragedyin the original Christian dies
without Roxanne ever finding outthat he's not the one who wrote.
(23:07):
And there is no sex in theoriginal because it was from the
17th century.
And so Cyrno keeps the secretfor 30 years because to him,
Roxanne's happiness is moreimportant than his own.
And I never really knew how tofeel about that in the original.
(23:28):
Like in some ways, I found itutterly romantic, and in other
ways I was just like, Sir No,get over yourself, dude.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
Yeah, that definitely feels like I don't
know.
You know, I always say to you,to me, to anybody who makes the
mistake of asking me for advice,you should always move toward
what you want, not away fromwhat you're afraid of.
Yeah.
Right.
That's very much moving awayfrom what you're afraid of.
Cyrno was.
SPEAKER_03 (23:52):
And had Christian not died, it would be much
clearer to me in the originalstory.
Yeah.
Because there's a like, it's notas fair.
They had decided, we'll let herchoose.
Oh.
And then he died.
And so it's not as fair.
Then she ends up with no love ofher life.
SPEAKER_01 (24:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
So it's not fair to her either.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:15):
And then the end of the play is Cyreno receives a
mortal wound.
He knows he's dying, and he goesto visit Roxanne.
It's 30 years in the future.
She has become a nun, I think,because without Christian, she
does not want to marry.
Ugh.
Sorry.
I know.
I know.
SPEAKER_00 (24:36):
And so definitely a man, definitely wrong.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (24:40):
Yeah.
So she, she, so he goes to visither.
She's always glad to see him.
Like he has been a steadfastfriend.
They have, they like he has hadlike he's enjoyed the friendship
of this woman that he loves allthis time.
And so he is sitting therebleeding to death without her
knowing it, because he's likehidden the fact that he's dying.
(25:02):
And he's quoting the letters hewrote to her, to her.
And she understands in the lastmoments of his life, oh my God,
I wasn't in love with him.
I was in love with you.
And so there's it's this likegut-wrenching agony of like she
loses him twice.
(25:24):
That's where it's like, no, youshould have told her.
SPEAKER_02 (25:34):
Somebody once told me the truth is not always easy,
but it's always your friend.
Yeah.
unknown (25:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:41):
You know, sometimes your friends need to do a little
tough love, but like the truthis your friend.
SPEAKER_03 (25:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So what I appreciate about SteveMartin's, because he wrote this,
he wanted to do an update and hewanted it to have a happy ending
of Serena de Bergiac, is he gaveCyrino the happy ending.
And he gave Roxanne a lot moreagency.
(26:10):
Yeah.
So, and even the like thecompersion aspect of it, he
wanted her to be happy, but hewas not self-sacrificing like
Syrano was.
Even in the the moment of him,like at every point, he was
doing these things thinking ofher, and then kind of belatedly
(26:34):
realizing, like, ah, crap.
I'm not sure that I woulddescribe what happens in Roxanne
as Comperd.
Yeah.
But what I kind of appreciateabout it is he's getting into
the loving aspect of it becausehe gets to do what he wants to
do, which is write her letters,which is tell her how he feels,
(26:57):
because that is actually moreimportant to him than the sex.
And that's not to say the sexisn't important to him.
But he's not thinking about thesex because what he's thinking
about is like, I get to tell thewoman I love how I feel about
her.
And that is amazing.
(27:17):
So there's something so romanticabout that and so fulfilling and
satisfying about that.
It's a farce because of how it'sgoing about, how he's going
about it and how it happens.
But there's something delightfulabout it's all rooted in the
fact that he is so in love andthat his love is pure in a way.
(27:43):
Like he cares about her, not herbody, not her looks, even though
of course he is attracted to herphysically, that what is
important to him is capturingthat with words.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
I mean, yes, and she's friggin' Daryl Hannah, and
he met her when she was naked.
So I feel like that takes away alittle bit of your point here.
Yes.
I mean, I like it.
I'm glad that Steve Martin madethis Roxanne a brilliant
(28:21):
astronomer working on her PhDand not just some pretty face.
It is more than just the factthat she's beautiful.
Like there is a deeperconnection that's about their
intellect and all of thosethings.
And I think to his credit, thatthat's the way he wrote it.
Great, great.
But your point that this issomehow like pure and and like
not about the physical isundermined by the casting and by
(28:46):
the fact that he meets her nakedthe first time he meets her.
SPEAKER_03 (28:49):
Well, what I'm what I mean is every other man we see
when talking to any womanobjectifies them just
completely.
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
Right.
And like Chris doesn't give ashit that she's an astronomer,
right?
Like that's not why he likesher.
He likes her because she'spretty, because she's Daryl
Hannah.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (29:07):
And like we see her deal very ablely with people who
like objectify her.
And we see her like talk abouthow like I just I want someone
with a brain.
I want someone who is not justabout like Daryl Hannah knows,
or Roxanne knows she's DarylHannah.
(29:28):
Roxanne knows that she'sgorgeous, and like that is not
what she wants from an encounterwith a man.
She she doesn't want a man who'sjust gonna be like, you're
pretty.
Like, she doesn't want that.
And she knows she's pretty.
She doesn't need someone to tellher that.
She doesn't need someone to talkabout her looks.
(29:49):
And we see only some of or hearonly some of the things that CD
writes to her.
One of them, the the letter atthe end that he didn't finish.
He writes about You changed yourhair.
Yeah, you changed your hair onlya little bit.
Remember.
Um, but I noticed.
But I noticed.
And it was like I like staringat the sun, because every time I
(30:10):
close my eyes, it's there, it'simprinted on my eyelids.
And so, like, that is about howshe looks, but it's not about
her looks, it's about how shepresents herself, it's about her
choices still.
That's an interesting take.
And so that to me is for someonewho constantly gets praise for
(30:36):
her looks, that's gotta be likeintoxicating.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
So I usually take some notes on where you want to
go, and we didn't do that beforewe hit record today.
Yeah.
But I'm trying to remember someof the postcards that you gave
me.
You wanted to talk aboutmasculinity and femininity.
You wanna go there?
SPEAKER_03 (30:57):
Yeah.
So in terms of masculinity, CDis interesting in that he is
like he has mastered a lot ofdifferent aspects of
masculinity.
Like he wins that fightinitially against two guys.
He can eviscerate people withhis words.
(31:17):
The scene that I mentioned wherehe does the 20, which is
actually 24 insults against theguy.
Once he's done that, the guytries to like then make it a
physical fight.
And he, while walking away, CDlike punches, like hits him in
the balls and then punches himin the face.
And then he goes up to Roxanne.
(31:38):
Like over his shoulder.
And then he goes up to Roxanne.
He's like, has he fallen yet?
And she like looks over, she'slike, now yes.
And then he's like, Great,thanks.
And he walks away.
So, like, and this is SteveMartin, who I don't know exactly
how old he was, but he was about40, I think.
And, you know, slender,gray-haired guy, big nose.
(32:01):
So, like, he can fight, he's agood manager, like, because he's
he's he's a boss, he's a goodcook.
They establish that.
He can write, so he's verysmart, he's very funny.
So, like, he's kind of like thetop of his game in all the ways
that a man might want tocultivate himself.
(32:22):
Okay.
But he is very clearly verysensitive about his nose.
And it's interesting because itseems like he's cultivated all
these like masculine skillsbecause of it.
Because of the nose.
Because of the nose.
And now, some of it, like a lotof comedians were, you know,
(32:42):
bullied kids.
So, like, if you if you are theone making the jokes, then like
they're not laughing at you,they're laughing with you, you
know, that sort of thing.
Sure.
But it's interesting about thelike the this idea of like
masculinity, he's not, hedoesn't exact he doesn't have
the kind of toxic masculinityyou see from so many other
people.
(33:03):
You see other men being liketoxic to women, saying things
like I don't remember, like, areyou playmate of the month from
July 85 to women as a way offlirting with us?
As a pickup line.
As a pickup line.
Yeah, it's gross.
And you see the mayor played byFred Willard, but he's great in
(33:27):
the role, kind of like puttingpeople down in a very Fred
Willard kind of way.
I would rather pee with thepeople of Nelson than with the
finest people of the world.
So there's there's this kind oftoxicity that that CeeDee
avoids.
You know, his best friend isDixie, who's played by Shelly
Duval, by the way, who I love.
(33:49):
Oh, and there's there's thiswonderful moment where there is
a kid up on the roof of hishouse who's been up there for a
day.
They send CD up because he's thethe fire chief to get him down.
And so he climbs, climbs upbecause that's what he does and
talks to him.
And the kid is a heavy kid.
He says, Why are you up here?
(34:09):
What's going on?
He's like, kids at cool schoolcall me porky.
And CD immediately goes, Goddamn it, why do they have to do
that?
He's like, Oh, I shouldn't havesaid that in front of you.
And he talks to the kid, and thekid ends up calling the other
kids at school bastards.
He's like, Oh, I shouldn't havesaid that in front of you.
The kid says that.
And so, and he's very, I wasworried when I saw that because
I was just like, Oh crap, wherehow does this go?
(34:32):
And it goes fine.
It really goes fine.
The kid says to CD, like, do Ihave to come down now?
He's like, No, you can stay uphere.
We'll stay up here together.
And like, just is is like opento just having the kid be.
SPEAKER_02 (34:46):
So do you think here's where maybe you're going
with this when you like the wayyou mentioned comedians being
bullied.
Like, do you think that withinthe universe of this movie, that
if CD had been born with atypical nose, that maybe he
wouldn't be so non-toxicallymasculine?
Possibly.
Possibly.
SPEAKER_03 (35:07):
I think that it has definitely made him
compassionate.
Like that made him the rightperson to go up to talk to the
kid on the roof.
Mm-hmm.
Who was being bullied.
Who is being bullied, yeah.
And I think it also made himmore likely to be Roxanne's
equal.
Mm-hmm.
Because he has worked so hard toimprove his thinking, improve
(35:31):
his wordplay, improve hisphysicality, all of that.
Yeah.
But it also has made him veryself-loathing rather than like
entitled, which is what the menwe otherwise see exhibiting is
that kind of entitlement.
I mean, uh it not exactly.
(35:52):
Like Chris, there's somethingkind of adorable about the fact
that he like vomits the firsttime he sees Roxanne.
Right.
And there was a reviewer I readwho talked about what works for
this film is that Sandy andChris fit together.
And Roxanne and CD fit together.
(36:14):
They are appropriate.
And I have always liked that.
Like that when Chris meetsSandy, he's able to talk to her.
And his jokes make her laugh,even though they're much less
intelligent than CD's jokes.
Like he's having lunch at herbar and he's like, Yeah, I'll
(36:34):
have a beer, and she's like,draft.
And he's like, Oh, a little, butI'll put my sweater on if it
gets too cold.
SPEAKER_02 (36:40):
Chris says that.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Chris says that.
So, like, that's a solid B pluspun.
Sure.
But she laughs really hard atit.
And then, like, she's reallyimpressed with the fact that
he's been to San Francisco andNew York City.
And the fact that he can shufflecars well.
Yes.
Yeah.
And then he's originally fromAlbuquerque.
And the reason I know how tospell it is because, like, he he
(37:01):
says he's from Albuquerque, andshe's like,
A-L-B-U-Q-U-A-L-B-U-Q-U-E-R-Q-U-E.
She's like, Oh, it's an old barbet.
So I know how to spellAlbuquerque because of that.
And so, like, they fit togetherin a way that he would never fit
with Roxanne.
Right.
And I felt like that, that'spart of the thesis of this film,
(37:22):
is that love should be a meetingof the minds in a way.
SPEAKER_02 (37:26):
And I think it's, yes, right.
There are people to whom you aresuit.
I I think it's it's even morethan that.
Yes, I think that's right.
It's a meeting of the minds, butit's actually more than that.
There are people to whom you aresuited physically.
And there are people to whom youare suited intellectually.
And there are people to whom youmay be suited both, but the
intellectual should drive.
(37:48):
I think that's the thesis,right?
Like that's the suggestion here.
Because Chris and Roxanne aresuited physically.
Like they like the way oneanother look, but that's not the
basis for a long-term romance.
Yeah.
Says this film.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:04):
I do want to also talk about femininity.
SPEAKER_02 (38:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's talk about that.
Because you've pointed out thefact that Roxanne here is
someone who's constantly gettingpraised for the way that she
looks.
And yet these letters made herfeel feminine.
SPEAKER_03 (38:17):
So let's talk about that.
So I didn't remember that fromthe film.
You know, she says, I loved yourletters.
They made me feel alive.
They made me feel feminine.
And I was really struck by that.
Cause I was like, what does itmean that something made you
feel feminine?
I mean, the movie doesn't tellus.
It doesn't tell us what shemeans by that to feel feminine.
(38:39):
And this is, you know, a30-year-old movie, right?
No, 40, nearly 40-year-oldmovie, excuse me.
So, you know, this is notsomeone who has any questions
about her femininity.
But it made her feel desired, Ithink.
SPEAKER_02 (38:56):
It's more than that, though, because I think someone
who gets all the praise for herlooks constantly feels desired.
Yeah.
But this is actually aninteresting nuance from this
film that was, I'm sure not likesuper intentional, right?
But like as a smart woman,right?
Like it's complicated.
You know, I recently sawsomething like, you know, it was
(39:19):
some stupid thing, like some brotalking about different things
that he would judge women on.
And like, he's not even in theorbit.
Like this dude would neverdesire me.
And I don't want to be desiredby this.
You know what I mean?
And yet feeling desired, beingdesirable is something we all
want.
But it's complicated, I think,for a smart woman.
(39:42):
Because if a smart woman feelsas though she is desired for her
looks and body alone, it's likenot the whole self.
It's like I have to check thething that makes me me at the
door in order for you to desireme.
Yes.
And that that's not real.
And so for her, for Roxanne tosay that these beautiful
(40:06):
intellectual letters made mefeel feminine.
I'm doing this in real time.
Makes me like project that shefelt desired in her totality,
which for smart women, I thinkyou and I can say by experience,
is fairly rare.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (40:27):
Yeah.
This reminds me of PierceBrosnan, is married to an
absolutely gorgeous woman whohad been a model, but she, as
many of us with bodies do, hasgained weight and is now an
absolutely gorgeous woman who'sprobably about 40 or 50 pounds
more than she was when they gotmarried.
And Pierce Brosnan is stillclearly very much in love with
(40:50):
her.
Like every time you see picturesof them that they're clearly
devoted to each other.
He is someone who has aged.
His genetics have made it thathe is gorgeous at every age.
And I've seen people talk aboutlike really shitty, horrible
things, like why hasn't heupgraded and bullshit like that?
(41:10):
And that's kind of what you whatI feel like you're talking
about.
Like where it is very clear thatthe love and the desire between
the two of them is about theessence of each other.
SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
I mean, the physicality matters.
Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't.
Right?
You changed your hair and likethe sun, it's in burns into my
brain.
Like that's about the way shelooks.
Yes.
But it's not all right.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
It's backed up.
Yes.
And like the essence of who youare includes how you look.
Right.
And I feel like also feelingfeminine is being able to let go
of that, like, oh, you only likeme because of how I look.
And just enjoy the like, oh, yousee how smart I am and you like
(41:59):
how I look.
So like that feeling feminine islike, oh, I can enjoy the fact
that you like how I look.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
Yeah.
Which is also rare.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Shout out to all of my partnerswho make me feel that way.
We're running a little short ontime.
I want to make sure you havetime to talk about anything.
So you in your postcards, youalso mentioned romance.
Have we talked about that to theextent that you wanted to?
SPEAKER_03 (42:29):
Yes.
I well, the way that C D goesabout romancing Roxanne is so
intentional because he writes.
He writes letters and then hespeaks to her.
And that is very rare in themodern world because I mean, uh
partially because, like, whowrites letters anymore?
(42:51):
Even in 1987.
SPEAKER_00 (42:53):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:54):
It's also like I was trying to think of what the
modern equivalent would be.
I like you couldn't do this in2026.
SPEAKER_02 (43:02):
That's like text threads or something.
SPEAKER_03 (43:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the thinking through what youwant to say and thinking through
how you want to presentyourself, because that's really
what this is.
Like, that's what Serena deBergerac is about, is about how
you present yourself to anotherhuman being.
There's something very headyabout that and very romantic
(43:27):
about it.
There's a reason why we lovethis story and we keep retelling
it, and there's iterations of itover and over and over again.
And there was a version of itwith Peter Dinklage as Cyrano.
So instead of a nose, it'sbecause Peter Dinklage is a
little person, which a littleperson.
Yeah.
It's amazing.
And because we can allunderstand that feeling of not
(43:48):
being enough for our love.
And then that wanting to presentourselves in the best possible
light.
So there's something both likeromantic and tragic about it.
And the fact that Steve Martinwas able to make it romantic and
hilarious.
SPEAKER_02 (44:04):
Yeah, that comedy was another thing you wanted to
talk about.
SPEAKER_03 (44:06):
Yes.
This is a very funny movie.
And while Edmund Rostand wasfunny as well, I mean it's it's
a it's a funny play becauseSerena de Bergrac is a funny
person.
It's kind of amazing the amountof humor that Steve Martin is
able to wring out of thesemoments, especially because I
don't like cringe humor.
(44:27):
Right.
And I still love this movie.
Like loved it to the point whereI watched it over and over again
as a kid.
And part of that is just SteveMartin is so charming.
He is really charming.
He's so charming.
But the comedy of thatmisunderstanding comedy, the
comedy of one person standing infor another while also being
(44:50):
incredibly romantic.
Oh man, that's my catnip.
Like, I don't like how do you dothat?
That's incredible.
Yeah.
All right.
Any final points before I try toreflect back?
I will tell you, when I'm tryingto get my son's attention and I
can't get them to listen to me,in my head, boys, boys, the
(45:14):
ladder's up.
Boys, boys, the ladder is up.
Runs through my head.
Because when they're turningfrom trying to get snowball the
cat from the uh tree, they'regoing with the ladder with the
ladder up.
It's just that lives rent-freein my head.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_02 (45:32):
All right.
So let me see if I can reflectback to you some of your deep
thoughts about this film Roxanneby Steve Martin, which is a
retelling, a modern retelling ofthe Sierra No de Bergerac play.
Some of the things that we spenta lot of time actually talking
about, like talking aboutromance and femininity and like
what is more important and sortof how people are suited.
(45:54):
And we talked about sort ofphysical, being suited
physically and being suitedintellectually.
And the hypothesis of this filmis that the intellectual match
is the one that matters, is theone that is sort of more real
and drives true love.
Like that's what love actuallyis, is that is where the
(46:16):
intellectual match is primary.
We also spent some time talkingabout femininity and what it
means for Roxanne to have saidthat these letters made her feel
feminine.
And you and I both had some, Ithink, some like sympathy and
like empathy to the idea thatfor a smart woman to have her
(46:36):
intellect be a part of theattraction and not sort of like,
I like you even though you'resmart, is actually sort of rare
and makes sense that that wouldfeel if feeling feminine for
this straight woman is also partand parcel to feeling desired
and desirable.
That makes a lot of sense to us.
(46:57):
On the other side of the coin,we talked about masculinity and
the fact that this character, CD has sort of mastered a lot of
the sort of primary areas ofmasculinity and done so in a way
that has not made him toxicmostly, which we wondered if
that's in fact because of thehuge nose, about which he is
(47:20):
very sensitive, but also whichforced him to kind of learn
these other skills potentially,which is an interesting sort of
hypothesis or assumptionunderlying the film and possibly
even the source material.
You talked about the romanticpiece of the tragedy of the
(47:41):
original play that on reflectiondoes not actually feel really
healthy.
It removes agency from Roxanneentirely when Cyrene O chooses
not to tell her that he hadwritten the letters.
And it also denies both of them30 years of potential happiness.
And then we also spoke a bitabout comedy and the way that
(48:06):
this film and the sourcematerial is so very funny.
Mixed up with romance is yourcatnip.
And also, I think in theoriginal was sort of the foil to
the tragedy.
And in this film, like was areally interesting vehicle for
very charming Steve Martin.
I'm sure I'm forgettingsomething, but we are kind of
(48:27):
out of time.
So any like really importantthing for us to note.
This is well worth the rewatch.
So next week, Emma, I'm gonnabring you my deep thoughts about
the animated series Daria.
Cool.
I'm looking forward to that.
And listener, if you want tohear some of the shit that we
forgot to say in this episode,head on over to our Patreon.
You will have to pony up, but weare going to hop on another
(48:48):
recording and record the shitthat we forgot to say.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
(49:10):
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
(49:33):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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