February 10, 2026 • 52 mins
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I'm incarcerated, Lloyd!!
This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily shares her analysis of one of the classic movies that happened to miss the Guy girls the first time around: Say Anything. Cameron Crowe's 1989 romance/comedy created some iconic moments in our collective Gen X childhood--notably the scene of John Cusack's Lloyd Dobler holding the boom box playing Peter Gabriel's "In Your Eyes" over his head.
Crowe's storytelling also turned a curious eye to toxic masculinity by showing a romance where the young woman's intelligence is a feature, not a bug, for the less-impressive young man who loves her. John Mahoney, who plays Ione Skye's nurturing but corrupt father, also offers an incredibly nuanced take on the psychology of how money can infect even the most loving of parental relationships. While Tracie and Emily both worry about how this romance between two teens will work out--especially if they do "make it" and stay together--the slice of life comedy and realism in this film are lovely to watch, even if they can feel a bit dated after 37 years.
You don't have to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything. Just throw on your headphones and listen.
Tags
nostalgia, 80s and 90s movies, cameron crowe, classic movies, comedy, deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, film, film analysis, gen x childhood, gen x nostalgia, John Cusack, mental health, movie reviews, pop culture, psychology, romance, romcom, storytelling, women
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Money doesn't exist.
It's something that we haveagreed upon.
It's a delusion we've agreedupon.
And so that means we put our ownneuroses and baggage and
psychology and morality onto it.
And so then you end up havingmoments like this.
You have things like this, whereI can see where Jim could have
been a good man at some point,in part because of things like
(00:21):
patriarchy, in part because ofthings like toxic masculinity,
and in part because of thingslike the way our money works,
the way that our system works.
It twisted him.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed?
Because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_03 (00:51):
I'm Emily Guy Birken, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1989 Cameron Crow film SayAnything with my sister, Tracy
Guy Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:12):
So, Trace, I know from before wehit record that you haven't seen
this, but tell me whatever's inyour head about Say Anything.
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Yeah, so I have not seen this one.
And like before we hit record,when you know we were talking
about it, I said, Is that theboombox one?
So that's what's in my head.
Say anything is the movie whereJohn Cusack holds a boombox over
his head as some sort ofromantic gesture.
Never seen the movie, but that'sromantic gesture in my mind has
always been super creepy.
(01:41):
Like it always read a stalkeryrather than as romantic to me.
Not having seen the movie,totally out of context.
Like, yeah.
But out of context, like if anex-boyfriend showed up at my
house with a boom box in themiddle of the night, like it's
not gonna endear him to me.
But that's really all I've gotis the boom that's the boom box
(02:01):
movie.
So I have a very clear pictureof John Cusack in like a trench
coat holding the thing over hishead.
That's all I got.
So why are we talking about thismovie today?
What's at stake for you?
SPEAKER_03 (02:13):
So this was not one of the formative films.
I never saw it until I was incollege, which is unusual for
like this is one of the likeromantic Gen X films.
I mean, that I don't know howyou and I both managed to miss
it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:27):
Well, I mean, we're a little young for it, right?
Like in 89.
Except that you were 10 and Iwas 13.
SPEAKER_03 (02:35):
Except when I was in college, all of my friends were
like, oh my God, say anything.
Like we were young for TheBreakfast Club, but that was one
of our formative films.
True.
So yeah, I don't know how wemissed it.
But it was one where I haveheard it referred to multiple
times as like one of the bestromantic films.
(02:57):
And there is a romance novelthat I've read where they
reference it.
And I remember when I saw it incollege, really being struck by
the financial aspect of it.
So, because, you know, I'm me.
I also remember being struck bythe fact that Diane Court, the
(03:20):
female lead who's played by IoniSkye, is brainy.
She's very, very smart.
And that's why people think thatshe doesn't fit with Lloyd
Dobler, who's played by JohnCusack.
And so that's something like youand I both kind of self-identify
as smart women, which I mean, Idon't think we need to
(03:40):
self-identify.
unknown (03:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
I mean, uh everybody else also identifies us that
way, but yeah.
If we don't reject the label.
SPEAKER_03 (03:47):
Yeah.
And she is very, she's bemusedby his interest in her because
he's not just interested in herbecause she's Ioni Sky and
gorgeous.
He's interested in her becauseshe's so intelligent and
interesting.
So that's what's at stake forme.
And it left me with more tothink about.
(04:10):
I remember the first time I sawit than I was expecting.
I was expecting it to be just,you know, high school
shenanigans and boom boxes andPeter Gabriel, because it's the
In Your Eyes song, which I don'tknow if I've ever mentioned on
the show, but I just adore PeterGabriel.
It's one of my top favoriteartists.
And when I saw a concert of hisa few years ago, it was the best
(04:31):
concert I'd ever seen.
I was only sad because the weekbefore I'd gone to see Nick Cave
in this very like stripped-downshow, that was the best concert
I'd ever seen.
And I really wish I had morethan a week in between because
so then Nick Cave could be thebest for longer?
For longer than like he got sixdays, and then I went to Peter
(04:54):
Gabriel, he blew Nick Cave outof the water.
Long story short, I was notexpecting to have to be thinking
about it for several weeksafterwards, the first time I saw
it.
I do also just want to tell areal quick funny thing.
My spouse came in while I waswatching it and he was like, Oh,
what are you watching?
I was like, say anything.
He's like, Have you seen it?
He's like, Oh, years ago.
It was right before the boomboxmoment.
(05:16):
He's like, You and I was like,You know this.
He's like, Yeah.
And then a second later he saysto me, I'm incarcerated, Lloyd.
And I'm like, is that a meme?
And then as we get to the end ofthe film, there's a point where
Lloyd and Diane go to herfather, who is in jail.
Diane refuses to get out of thecar.
(05:36):
And so Lloyd goes in and istalking to him, and at some
point says something along thelines of, How are you?
And Jim goes, I'm incarcerated,Lloyd.
And I like turn to my husbandand I was like, How is it that
you remembered that?
He's like, It's three words.
Like, but why did that stick inyour head?
And we've decided thatparticularly in this current
(05:57):
hellscape of 2026, when we askeach other how you're doing, our
response will be, I'mincarcerated, Lloyd.
Oi.
So as for why now, I don'tremember how it ended up on the
list, probably because I wasthinking about it because of
Gross Point Blank, because ofJohn Cusack.
I'm not sure.
Since you haven't seen it, I'mgonna give you kind of a basic
(06:20):
rundown of the plot.
Do you want to give me somepostcards from the destination
first?
Oh, good thank you.
Thank you for reminding me.
I do want to give you somepostcards from the destination.
I want to talk about non-toxicmasculinity and toxic
masculinity.
That's I feel like what theentire film is about in a lot of
ways.
I want to talk about smart womenand fathers and daughters.
(06:42):
I want to talk about divorce andespecially divorce in the 80s
because it feels like we've comea long way from there.
I'm gonna want to talk aboutmoney because that is an
important plot point, and thenthat is also part of I think the
mask the toxic masculinity ofDiane's father.
And then like parentalobligations.
(07:05):
And I want to talk about younglove and sex.
So those are some of the thingsthat I think are gonna be
important aspects of this film.
So now that you have somepostcards, cool basic rundown of
the plot.
So it is set in like suburbsSeattle.
We meet Lloyd Dobler, who iskind of a sort of a slacker, but
(07:26):
he just kind of aimless guy.
Senior in high school, everyoneis graduating.
What we know about him is thathe it loves kickboxing, which at
the time was a an emerging sportthat no one had heard of.
And his parents are in the army.
They're currently stationed inGermany, and they have basically
pawned him off to his oldersister, who is played by his
(07:48):
actual sister, Joan Cusack, whois a single mother of a little
boy.
And so, and it's pretty clearthat this is an apartment that
is maybe like a one ortwo-bedroom apartment.
And so Lloyd is sleeping in theliving room.
It's not an ideal situation.
Lloyd has two best friends.
They are both girls.
Corey, who is played by LilyTaylor.
(08:10):
She has had a wonderfulcharacter actor career, but I
really wish she had gotten moreof the uh amazing parts that I
think that she was could haveplayed because she's amazing.
And then an actor I don't know,but she was playing, I think her
name was like DC or C D orsomething like that.
So he's two best friends who areboth girls.
(08:33):
And he's saying, I'm gonna askDiane Court out to them.
And they're like, You'rereaching too high.
She's out of your league,basically.
We meet Diane while her fatheris driving her to the uh the
graduation ceremony.
She is the valedictorian.
(08:53):
It is clear her father dotes onher and he is a single father.
First time you watch it, you getthe impression that maybe he's a
widower.
She gives her speech, and peopleare it's kind of crickets a
little bit.
And she had said something toher dad about maybe I shouldn't
have taken those college coursesthat took me off campus because
(09:16):
I feel like nobody knows who Iam.
And after the ceremony, andLloyd doesn't have anyone there
because his parents are inGermany and his sister got stuck
at work.
So he had no one to celebratehis big graduation.
Afterwards, so everyone's takingpictures.
And so Lloyd gets his friendCorey, Lily Taylor, like, take a
picture of me and Diane.
(09:37):
And so he like basically runsthrough where she is to take a
picture.
So it looks like he's there withher.
Like a photobomb almost?
Like basically a photo bombbefore photobombing was a thing.
We see Lloyd call Diane's houseand reach Jim.
He is played by John Mahoney,who was the father on Frasier,
(09:59):
accidentally charm him.
Jim starts off with, Are you theone with the Mustang?
Are you the one with the truck?
Are you the one with the andhe's like, Well, I'm the one who
drives this thing, whatever.
I don't think you've ever metme.
My name is Lloyd Dobler.
And and he like, he's like,Well, let me get your phone
number, I'll have and I'll I'llleave a message for her.
Lloyd repeats his phone numberlike three times.
(10:22):
And then as Jim is about to hangup, Lloyd says, She's pretty
great, isn't she?
And that really charms Jim.
And Jim's like, yeah, she reallyis.
We learn that Diane has won afellowship to England to study.
It's, you know, kind of furtherproof of how great she is.
And we learn that Jim owns anursing home.
(10:44):
Diane has a job there, like sheworks there for her dad.
Diane ends up calling Lloydback.
She doesn't really have any ideawho he is, but he ends up
charming her.
And he invites her to thegraduation party that one of
their classmates is holding.
And based on him like justcharming her, she says, All
(11:07):
right, I'll go with you to that.
And he is a just lovely.
She's he is lovely to her.
When he goes to pick her up, hesays to Jim, like, I want you to
know I am a kickboxer.
I consider myself an athlete, soI very rarely drink.
I want you to know your daughteris safe with me.
(11:27):
Now that construct is a littlegross in some ways, but it's
also like, remember that it's1989.
He's trying to be clear like, Iwant to make sure that she
enjoys herself and that she issafe and has fun.
And that's my job tonight.
Right.
And her well-being matters tohim.
Her well-being matters to me.
(11:48):
When they the other thing that II really love, they get to the
party and they're immediatelyseparated.
And he doesn't have a problemwith it.
But he keeps kind of likelooking over and checking on
her.
Like, you having fun?
You doing okay?
And she has a wonderful time atthe party.
And she meets all of thesepeople who she never really knew
that well.
(12:08):
And it's not weird.
It's just, you know, like, Iwish I'd known you better.
And there, she has brought heryearbook and she asks people to
sign the sign it.
And they stay out overnight.
She calls her dad aroundmidnight, and some of the other
kids are like, You have to call?
And she's like, No, it's okay.
I don't mind.
Like, he just wants to know I'mokay and he's worried about me.
(12:31):
At the end of the night, andthey've stayed overnight until
they're the last ones at theparty.
They give a kid a ride home andthen they park at a 7-Eleven,
get something like to eat orsomething, and then walk back to
her house.
And there's a moment where sheis has dressed up for it.
She's wearing a dress andwearing like these high heels.
(12:54):
And Lloyd says, Oh, there's someglass.
Be careful.
There's some broken glass on thesidewalk.
And like he brushes it away andkind of steers her around it.
She tells him she had a nicetime.
She's like, I wasn't expectingyou to be so basic.
And when she gets in, she tellsher father, like, Oh, I feel
like I blew it.
(13:14):
I told him he was basic.
And her father says, I don'tthink he's dying of
embarrassment.
And you see him out on thestreet, like celebrating, like
with his hands over his head,like, woohoo.
So they start hanging out infriendly ways.
He's not pushing for anythingphysical or anything like that.
Their second date is he comesover for dinner.
(13:38):
Jim has some of his friendsover.
At that little dinner party, welearn that Diane is terrified of
flying.
And so she's worried about theflight to England.
She's never been on a plane.
She tried to go when she waseight.
She freaked out so much shestarted screaming that Jim said,
turn the plane around becausethey were still on the tarmac, I
think.
They were, um, got off the planeand they were told never to fly
(14:00):
the friendly skies with whateverthat airline was again.
And so, so we know that this isa very like deep-seated fear.
Jim and his guests start asking,Lloyd, what is it you want to
do?
What are your ambitions?
And he doesn't have any.
He says, like, well, my dad's inthe army, he wants me to join,
but that that just doesn't feellike it's right for me.
(14:23):
And then he has this wonderfulthing where he's like, I don't
want to do anything for a livingwhere I'm selling or buying or
processing or anything, or well,where I'm selling anything
that's bought or processed, orbuying anything that's sold or
processed, or processinganything that's sold or bought.
It really kind of dims Jim'sview of him.
(14:43):
In the middle of the dinner, twoIRS agents show up and tell Jim
that he is being investigatedfor tax fraud having to do with
his nursing home.
The romance between Diane andLloyd continues.
Diane tells him, I'm only herefor another 16 weeks and then
I'm going to England.
He's like, Well, then I want tospend 16 weeks with you.
(15:04):
You know, like then I'll takewhat I can get.
We learn a little bit more aboutDiane's backstory.
She tells Lloyd that her parentsgot divorced when she was 13 and
she had to stand in a courtroomand say who she wanted to live
with.
And she chose her dad becauseshe felt safe with him and she
can always say anything to him,which is where the title of the
(15:26):
movie comes from.
Diane introduces Lloyd to theresidents at the nursing home
because Lloyd says somethingabout like, I feel a little
weird around older people.
There's some kind of lovelyscenes where he meets an older
woman who's a writer.
He introduces the residents to amovie, things like that.
You see one night where shespends the night with him.
(15:48):
It's in the backseat of his carwhile Peter Gabriel's in your
eyes is playing and they havesex for the first time.
This is another lovely scenebecause they're in the backseat
of the car and she goes, You'reshaking.
He's like, No, I don't, I don'tthink I am.
And she's like, Are you cold?
He's like, Well, I'm notshaking.
He clearly is.
And she's like, Why are youshaking?
He's like, I really don't know.
And it's clear that this is likean emotional thing for him.
(16:12):
When she comes home that nextmorning, her father is angry at
her because she didn't call.
And she apologizes for notcalling.
And then she says, I can'timagine what you must think of
me.
But then they sit down and shesays, I could feel there was
this expectation from Lloyd,like he wanted, you know, he
(16:34):
never said anything, but I knowhe wanted more like physically
the look that someone would getin their eyes.
You know that look.
And Jim goes, Yes, I know thelook.
And she's like, So I had decidedI wasn't gonna do anything.
And Jim like looks relieved.
And then she's like, and then Ikind of attacked him anyway.
And Jim is like clearly not okaywith this, but he doesn't say
(16:55):
anything to his credit.
He does not say anything.
And she says, I love that I cantalk to you.
I love that I can tell youthings.
It feels like things don'tactually happen until I've told
you about them.
Lloyd writes a letter to her.
He does it on his owninitiative, but his friend Corey
also has suggested, like, youknow, make sure that you let her
(17:18):
know, like, that this is likeemotionally important for you.
And so he has already writtenthe letter and shows it to her.
And she's she says, Yeah, thisis great.
Send it to her.
That is basically saying, like,I'm so glad we're together.
I don't remember exactly thewording of the letter.
I'm sure there are fans of thefilm who know it by heart
because it's not that long.
(17:39):
And he mails it to her.
Jim picks a fight with Diane,basically saying that she should
break up with Lloyd and that sheshould, you know, give him a
gift, you know, let him knowthat this is like, cause he's
like, You're gonna, you're notgonna see each other anymore
anyway, when you go to England.
Give him a gift.
It's okay.
(17:59):
Tell him that, you know, youneed to focus on your own life.
And she's like, But dad, Ireally like him.
He keeps pushing and she finallysays, Dad, I love him.
And then Jim drops the likefighting stance and says, like,
maybe I'm being selfish.
Maybe I'm being this.
I it's just I have so few weeksleft with you.
(18:19):
And it's very clear to an adultoutside observer he's this is a
manipulation tactic.
But to Diane, it feels like herdad is actually telling her the
truth now.
So she breaks up with Lloyd andgives him the gift that her dad
suggested she give.
And it's a pen.
It's a pen.
And she says, Please write to mewith this.
(18:41):
Lloyd is devastated.
He goes to see Corey.
Corey says, Are you gonna try toreach out to her?
He's already called her a bunchand he says, I'm not gonna do it
anymore.
I'm a guy, I have pride.
And Corey says, Don't be a guy,be a man.
And so we see him call one moretime and leave a message.
And this is when answeringmachines were messages you could
(19:02):
hear as they were being said.
And we see Diane like reallywanting to pick up, and again,
Jim manipulating, like, pick upif you want to pick up, that
sort of thing.
That's when we see the boomboxmoment.
The morning after that, or theboombox moment is at dawn.
So that same day, Diane goes tothe IRS office and speaks to an
(19:27):
agent and says, Look, I'msupposed to be going for this
fellowship in England.
I have this boy that I've beendating, and all I can think
about is what's going on with mydad.
I don't know what's happening.
He won't talk to me.
Please tell me what's going on.
I need to understand what'shappening in my life because of
what's going on with my dad.
And the agent is very kind butfirm.
(19:51):
Like, your father is guilty.
Here are like some indicators.
And one of the things he says islike, he spent money on things
and they're all about$9,000.
And we all already heard thatsomething that he owns cost
$9,000 because that's thethreshold to try to avoid an
audit.
And so he's like, you canprobably find information if you
(20:16):
look.
You can, if you look, you canprobably find what you need to
know.
So she goes home and she startssearching and she finds a
storehouse of cash in a box thatwe know that her father like
keeps locked, and so she prys itopen.
So she drives to the nursinghome and confronts her father,
who admits it.
He lies.
She asks him twice in twodifferent ways, and he lies, and
(20:41):
then she tells him she found themoney, and so he admits it.
And he tells her He admits he'sbeen in embezzling.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
What does he admit?
SPEAKER_03 (20:48):
So what he has been doing when the patients die, he
basically steals their state, hesteals their money.
He's making up patients and he'staking money from these patients
that they're not paying, likethey're not intending to pay.
Okay.
He says, like, may I havesomeone like me take care of me
when I'm old?
(21:09):
He's like, I give these people,you know, this lovely life that
their family isn't doing.
And honestly, he's not wrong.
He feels he's entitled to theirthis money because he takes care
of them.
But he says, But the money's notfor me, it's for you.
I did this so that you wouldhave independence.
She is furious at him.
(21:30):
She's like, We were alwayssupposed to be honest with each
other, and you lied to me.
And she runs off and she findsLloyd and tells him, like, I'm
sorry, it's all true about mydad.
I need you.
And he says, Do you need me ordo you need someone?
And then he immediately says,Never mind, I don't care.
And like, as they hug, she says,No, I need you.
(21:53):
And so she moves into the tinyapartment with Lloyd and his
older sister.
And then the next scene, We seeis Jim's lawyer negotiating his
plea deal.
He's gonna have nine months injail and have to pay something
like$125,000.
So just before Diane leaves forEngland, Lloyd takes her to say
(22:14):
goodbye to her father in jail.
Diane won't get out of the car,so Lloyd's in talking to Jim.
And Jim asks, like, So are yougoing with her to England?
Lloyd says, Well, I was thinkingabout it and I was thinking,
like, I don't want, you know, Idon't want to hold her back or
anything like that.
And Lloyd, or excuse me, Jim isdelighted.
(22:35):
And then Lloyd says, and then Ireconsidered and realized, like,
I'm very good at being herboyfriend and supporting her and
making sure she has what sheneeds so that she can shine.
So I am gonna go with her.
And Jim like freaks out at himand is really angry at him.
And that's when the I'mincarcerated, Lloyd is.
(22:58):
Diane has written him, writtenJim a letter, which Lloyd gives
to him, which is not a very goodletter.
Lloyd says, I haven't read it.
It's what?
It's not a very good letter.
It doesn't say that she lovesher dad.
It's angry.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (23:12):
And Lloyd says, I haven't read it, but if it's the
one that ends with, I'll alwayslove you, then it gets better.
And like Jim turns to the endand he's like, No, it's just
signed with her name.
And Lloyd tries to comfort thisman and says, Look, the fact
that that version exists ismeaningful.
Then Diane comes in and Jim andDiane have a moment where should
(23:36):
they hug each other and thenleave.
And then the last scene is Lloydsupporting Diane through her
panic on the plane, helping hersay, like, like, okay, you know,
if anything goes wrong on theplane, it goes wrong during
takeoff.
So we just need to make it untilthe no-smoking sign goes off.
That's where we end the film.
(23:58):
Okay.
So where do you want to start?
So let's talk about masculinity.
We have these foils ofmasculinity that are really
interesting.
We have Jim, who is in some waysatypical masculinity in that
he's a father.
And that's not to say thatfatherhood isn't masculine.
But when you talk about toxicmasculinity, you generally
(24:20):
aren't talking about girl dads.
And you certainly aren't talkingabout girl dads who are like,
just call me as long as you callme.
Yeah.
I don't care if you stay out allnight.
Yeah.
And who aren't like, I have a 45and a shovel.
I died and would miss you.
You know, to the boyfriend.
To the boyfriend.
There are ways in which this gymreminds me of our dad, Jim, in
(24:43):
that he is absolutely like 100%proud of his daughter and thinks
that she hung the moon and coulddo anything she set her mind to.
But he's also controlling andmanipulative and wants all of
her attention.
And it makes you wonder how itgot to the point where Diane was
(25:08):
in a courtroom saying who shewanted to live with at age 13.
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
That blows my mind, to be perfectly honest,
especially in the 80s, like thata girl would not that girls
don't have good relationshipswith dads, but like if being
forced to choose, like justnaturally moms tend to be the
primary parent, especially ofgirls.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
And we get to meet mom once.
She has lunch with Diane, andDiane is asking her, please say
nice things about dad if the IRSinvestigators come talk to you.
The mom is saying, like, I don'twant to talk about that.
I want to talk about you.
And Diane's like, This is whatme right now.
And the mom's like, No, whatboys are you dating?
(25:53):
Tell me about the boys in yourlife.
And so you get a sense of thatDiane and mom don't connect.
Yeah, that's gross.
Diane felt like she could sayanything to her father, but not
to her mother.
Right.
So all of that iscomprehensible.
That gets to like the fact that,and I don't know if that really
(26:15):
happened in the 80s or if it wasjust a movie trope where the kid
had to choose who they were theylived with.
I don't know.
But just the idea that you'dmake a child have to make that
decision is horrifying to me.
So, in some ways, what Jim doesfor a living, like he owns a
nursing home where he takes careof older residents, like the one
(26:39):
we we meet with a name, I can'tremember her name, but she's 93.
Like these are older folks whohe's like caring for.
This is a nurturing kind of man.
And yet, even within thatnon-toxic masculinity is this
very toxic entitlement,entitlement to his daughter.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Just in general.
I feel like that the entitlementruns through.
Cause like you named the nursinghome as a evidence of his
nurturing.
unknown (27:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
But he felt entitled there.
I'm nurturing you, therefore youowe me more money.
SPEAKER_03 (27:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He even says when the I'mincarcerated, Lloyd moment, he
says, like, I shouldn't have tolose my daughter because of
this.
It's like, you don't get todecide what you lose because of
this.
unknown (27:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:30):
You have done something seriously wrong, like
immoral, unethical, illegal,obviously.
A fundamental betrayal of somany people, including Diane.
SPEAKER_02 (27:44):
Yeah.
Well, the entitlement around thedaughter is around Diane is just
the toxicity there, from justfrom what you've told me, I
haven't seen this film.
Is he actually, as proud of heras he is, doesn't believe in her
agency.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (28:03):
Yes.
And so it's that kind ofparental pride where it's not
exactly proud of her, but proudof her reflection of him.
SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
Yes.
She is another accomplishment ofhis.
Yes.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
And so that is it's a fascinating thing to look at.
SPEAKER_03 (28:32):
Especially because it's also clear that he really
as much as he is capable, heloves her.
Yeah.
And in some ways, he is a betterfather than most that you see in
80s movies to a teenage girl.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
Well, there is no slut shaming, so.
SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
Yeah.
It's really it's a he's acomplex character.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I kind of wish this had been
one of my formative formativefilms, because the complexity of
his character is fascinating.
He's still a villain, but he'sgonna remain in Diane's life and
she's going to have complexfeelings about him.
(29:11):
And it's just fascinating.
I think it's like fascinatingstorytelling, fascinating in
terms of like how she is goingto figure out like the things
that he gave her that were goodand the things that he gave her
that were toxic and not knowingwhich or which.
SPEAKER_02 (29:26):
So I'd like to stay here and because you sort of
started, we were talking aboutthis like about vis-a-vis
masculinity, the toxicityvis-a-vis masculinity.
So I think I want to put this inconversation with the fact that
QSAC's character says, I have mydignity, I'm a guy.
And a female character says,Don't be a guy, be a man.
(29:48):
And like, what are theimplications then of that?
Because then the action tofollow, to be a man, is the
boombox moment, right?
SPEAKER_03 (29:55):
Yes.
So now in between, there's apoint where he's like recording
something on on a like a littledigital recorder, not digital,
but tape recorder, notes toCorey.
And one of the things he'ssaying is, like, I have too many
female friends.
I need to guy have guy friends,go hang out with the guys.
And so he goes and meets up withCorey's ex-boyfriend, Joe, and
(30:18):
then three other guys.
And then there's a little kidthere who's like, I don't know,
12, who are hanging out outsideof a gas station on a Saturday
night.
And he's like, What do I do?
And they all give him reallytoxic advice, which is basically
like one of them is find find agirl who looks just like her,
and then like, you know, havesex with her and dump.
(30:39):
And have sex with her.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
But dump her and like devastateher.
I can have like there's so manygirls in Seattle.
Let's go meet, like, you can gomeet a girl.
And like, there's it's all likethe very typical toxic
masculinity.
So Lloyd is listening to all ofthese men, these young men,
(30:59):
these boys.
I mean, they're they're all like18, 19 years old, talking about
like how they deal with it.
And he's like, if all of you areexperts, why are you sitting
here alone on a Saturday nightwith no women around?
When he gets back in his car andhe's back on his recorder, he's
just like, that was a mistake.
The movie shows us what a guydoes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (31:19):
We see Corey, and it's played for laughs in a way
that I'm not very comfortablewith.
Corey had had this reallytumultuous relationship with
Joe, who had been unfaithful toher.
She's a songwriter and she'slike, I wrote 63 songs this year
and they're all about Joe.
And like Joe lies when he criesand things like that.
There's a comment about how sheended up in the hospital because
(31:42):
she tried to die by suicide, butshe's okay now.
And then we see at thatgraduation party, Joe shows up
with Mimi, who he had cheated onCorey with.
And then at one point he findsCorey.
He's crying.
He says to her, like, I missyou, babe.
And like, I want to get backtogether.
And then he's like, Mimi's goingoff to college.
(32:04):
So, and he's like, Let's go havesex.
And she's like, Absolutely not.
We're also given that example,which is a lack of faithfulness.
So the boombox, the calling, issupposed to be in conversation
(32:24):
with that.
It's like a foil to that of thisis what a man does, which is
like is faithful.
If you're comparing Lloyd toJoe, yeah, Lloyd is definitely
non-toxic compared to Joe.
Part of what the problem is, isbecause we can see what Diane is
going through, we know shedoesn't actually want to break
(32:45):
up with Lloyd.
SPEAKER_02 (32:47):
That's exactly what I was thinking.
So I think it's faithfulness,but it's like in the broadest
sense of that word, not just inlike exclusivity and not
sleeping with other people, butin actually like being faithful
to the human being, like likecaring about the actual human
being and not just the woman whohappens to be closest and or
willing.
(33:07):
And so it's actually aboutDiane, not just the fact that
she's female and willing.
And so in that sense, like thatall okay, great.
Yes, good.
And the last point you madefeels super important because I
feel like one of the reasonsthat, like, in my head, without
(33:29):
context, the boombox momentbothers me is that like, like
that sort of sense, like, youknow, she turned you down.
So what are you gonna do?
You gotta don't give up, yougotta keep trying.
Like, no, she said like no is afull sentence.
You know, she made her intentionclear.
And so this movie, because we dosee that that's not what Diane
(33:51):
actually wants, that she hasthis villainous dad, makes it
okay.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
When the movie ended, because my spouse stayed
for the end of it and I it endedand credits are rolling.
I'm like, I'm not sure how Ifeel about this movie.
Lloyd says, like, I don't thinkhe says being Diane's boyfriend,
but something along those lines,like, I figured out what I want
to do for a living.
I want to be with Diane.
I'm good at it.
We have seen evidence.
Yes, he is.
He is very good at being therefor her, supporting her, getting
(34:19):
out of her way.
All the things that her dad isnot, actually.
But he's still an aimless19-year-old boy.
And young love, mmm, like, isthat gonna last?
SPEAKER_02 (34:33):
And so part I'm sorry, but defining your
existence and purpose on oneother person is a really bad
idea for both parties.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Yes.
What feels refreshing about itis that in 1989, it would be a
woman doing that for a man.
Totally.
Yes, agreed.
The gender swap is refreshing.
I agree.
Like Jim has a point in beingkind of unimpressed with Lloyd's
(35:04):
lack of direction.
And like we also see Lloyd issaying, like, uh, because
there's at one point he runsinto the career counselor who
says, You never met with me.
Every single other person inyour graduating class met with
me and put something in theirfolder.
And he said, Yeah, but how manyof them are really gonna do what
they said?
Right.
(35:24):
And like he he makes a goodpoint, but it's also like you
need to head somewhere.
And following a person, uh yeah,it just it worries me because
that seems like a very bad plan.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
Well, it just puts so much pressure on Diane.
I mean, she's thishigh-achieving kid who like
cares deeply about others, andlike it's just it's too much
pressure on her.
So now she's not gonna be ableto actually be honest about what
she wants if what she wants isnot him anymore.
Yes.
Because he's put everything inher.
SPEAKER_03 (36:01):
And maybe projecting a little bit here.
It's been clear that he doesn'thandle being cut loose well.
Right.
It also seemed revolutionarybecause the fact that we've got
this smart woman who's got thisabsolute devotion and support
(36:22):
from a young man who is not inany way intimidated or he
doesn't feel diminished in anyway by the fact that she's
smarter than him.
That's still fuckingrevolutionary, to be honest.
Yeah.
So I think all of that is great.
And if they were like, if itwere a story about 39-year-olds,
(36:46):
I don't know.
I and like the thing is there Idon't know that Cameron Crow
intended for us to believe thatthey're gonna be it's a happy
ever after, it's a happy fornow.
Because they're not done yet.
They're still cookie dough,they're not cookies.
SPEAKER_02 (37:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:01):
They're each what the other needs at the moment.
And that there's somethinglovely and wonderful about that.
And so that's something that isit's a story worth telling.
And the story doesn't need tohave doesn't need to tell us
what happens next, doesn't needto editorialize on what's going
to happen.
(37:23):
I do worry having lived throughthat age and just knowing how
toxic aimlessness can be foryoung people, even though Lloyd
has shown himself to be so opento whatever happens in a lot of
(37:43):
ways.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
Yeah.
I mean, when you say worry, likehonestly, my bigger worry is
that they do work out, that theyend up married and like 25 years
from now, she's like, feelsresentful that she has this
additional like obligation sincehis only purpose is her.
SPEAKER_03 (38:02):
Well, I mean, he seems like the kind of person
who would then be like thisamazing dad, because he's he's a
great uncle to a sister's kid.
We all need support personnel.
Do we want them to be our oursignificant other?
Yeah.
I agree that the real concernabout young love is that they
make it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:23):
Yeah.
If he doesn't find the anadditional purpose besides being
your partner.
unknown (38:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:29):
Although we do see him teaching at a kickboxing
studio and saying, like, I can'tbelieve I get paid for this.
So I mean, there's he's got morein his life than just her.
Okay.
It's also like this is a sliceof life.
So let's not put on it what'snot on it.
Sure.
The concern is, considering howformative this film was for so
(38:51):
many of our generation, wannathat there is something to
consider after the credits role.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
Yeah.
I think we're running a littleshort on time.
I want to make sure, and this isthe I in some ways connected.
I want to talk about the moneyaspect of this.
In part because, like part ofthe part of what makes young
love not last is the day-to-daystuff like money.
That, you know, you can't smackup against the like the
(39:20):
responsibilities of the realworld like money with the
idealism of young love andexpect everything to turn out
peachy necessarily.
That is part of what Jim istelling himself he's doing for
Diane.
He's like, He, I did this foryou so you could be independent,
(39:40):
financially independent.
And it's an it's another form ofcontrol.
Because instead of trusting thatshe has the agency to be able to
handle herself because he hasraised her to be smart, to be
savvy, to know how to handlelike jobs and money and all of
(40:04):
that.
Instead of trusting that, he'sputting his finger on the scale
saying, like, no, no, no, I'mgoing to provide this for you so
you don't have to worry.
And it's another, like, this isa reflection of me rather than
it being actual belief and pridein his daughter.
(40:24):
That gets to, I've talked beforeabout like money scripts.
So he gives her a car as hergraduation present.
It's a stick shift, and we seeLloyd teaching her how to drive
it.
Providing gifts to people youlove, that's not an uncommon
money script.
Equating money with love is notan uncommon money script.
(40:46):
And actually, it makes sensethat this man who has made has
like his career is a nursinghome where he kind of gives this
Ursatz, family love, to thesenursing home residents that he
would then feel entitled totheir money.
Because I'm giving you the loveyour family didn't give you, and
(41:09):
that equals money.
And so he then wants to show hislove to his daughter with this
money.
But it's all a mess because noneof it is real love.
None of it is really how moneyworks because she's overwhelmed
(41:30):
by the gift of the car.
She's going to England.
So what's going to happen tothat car?
SPEAKER_02 (41:35):
Right.
She can't take it with her.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
Although she could, but it would be very expensive.
Yeah.
When he gives it to her, shedoesn't know that she's going to
England.
So to be fair, but still, theyknew it was a possibility.
Like she had applied for this.
It shows again another facet ofJim trying to control his
daughter and seeing her as anextension of himself rather than
(42:00):
as a full and complete person onher own who is capable.
SPEAKER_02 (42:05):
Yeah, I hear that.
I hear that.
I want to circle back to the athing that you said about love
and money.
I think this is really I'mfascinated by this.
I mean, we've talked about moneyscripts before on the podcast.
So listeners go back and listento the Wall Street episode or
the Avalon episode to hear moreabout that.
But I want to stay with thisbecause, like, in my mind, lots
(42:29):
of people I know like givegifts, spend more money to show
how much they love.
But what you just described withthis character is that it goes
the other direction too.
He's giving love, airsatz love,family, airsatz family love is
the way you phrased it, to theresidents of his nursing home.
And therefore he thinks thatentitles him to money.
(42:50):
Like there's an equivalency inboth directions in this
narrative that I'm not sure Ifully like wrapped my mind
around in earlier thinking aboutthis.
Like I'm always thinking aboutthe way people spend money to
show love.
But you're naming that at leastsome of the time, in this
(43:11):
example, for instance, that onemight give love to get money or
feel entitled to some money as aresult of giving love.
And that's a really interestinglike twist on it.
I was not really considering,but now that you've said it, I
see how that happens.
Like I'm just thinking ofexamples of that in my mind.
So I just wanted to like circleback to that and underline it a
(43:32):
little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (43:33):
We know someone personally who's like that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Yes.
And I was thinking of thatperson, I think, in the way that
in the other, you know, in thelike spending more money to show
love and when other people don'tspend money.
SPEAKER_03 (43:46):
Not even that, but also buying love by spending
money on someone to make them afriend.
Right.
Right.
So that is something that youcommonly see.
Right.
But then also feeling like lovehas a price.
Because if you think of moneythat if that way, if you think
of money equals love, then thatmeans love has a price.
SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
And I do think that that person that we're both
thinking of, who's an extendedfamily member of ours, like felt
entitled to money that was nothers because of the love that
she had for the person to whomit did belong.
SPEAKER_03 (44:21):
It's all tangled up because when you start thinking
of it that way, there's nocrisp, clear definition of
either money or love.
SPEAKER_02 (44:29):
Well, and then you get into all this messy things
where like the money that's likeas exampled in this movie, the
money was not Jim's.
But he felt that he was entitledto it because of his conflation
of love and money.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (44:43):
Yes, exactly.
It's fascinating.
Like it's a fascinating,especially because of the
character study we have of Jim.
He's not Gordon Gecko.
He is not out to get likeextract every single penny out
of everyone.
And it really does seem like hecares for the residents of his
nursing home as much as he iscapable of.
(45:03):
Right.
He does nurture.
Well, which is why he feelsentitled to their money.
SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
If he did exactly them, he wouldn't feel entitled.
SPEAKER_03 (45:10):
But that's why I find like the these money
conversations so fascinating andwhy I have been telling people a
lot lately.
I've been writing about moneyfor 15 years.
I started off as like bleedingheart leftist and I am now like
burning to the ground,radicalized.
Money doesn't exist.
It's something that we haveagreed upon.
(45:30):
It's a delusion we've agreedupon.
And so that means we put our ownneuroses and baggage and
psychology and morality onto it.
And so then you end up havingmoments like this.
You have things like this, whereI can see where Jim could have
been a good man at some point.
And it got twisted.
And in part because of thingslike patriarchy, in part because
(45:53):
of things like toxicmasculinity, and in part because
of things like the way our moneyworks, the way that our system
works.
It twisted him.
SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
Right.
And his genuine care and concernfor his daughter's well-being,
which again got twisted intothis control over her and a
denial of her agency.
But I can see that it startedfrom genuine care and concern
about her well-being.
SPEAKER_03 (46:17):
You could see him like holding like an infant
Diane thinking, like, I want youto have the world, which is a
lovely parental sentiment thatneeds to grow as your child
grows and needs to adapt andchange as your child adapts and
changes.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (46:36):
And allow room for them to be full human beings
with agency.
Exactly.
Well, we have about threeminutes left, Em.
So do you have any well, youhave a final point you want to
make before I wrap us up, orwould you like me to reflect
back to you?
SPEAKER_03 (46:53):
Just the real quick the parental obligation, like
what Jim owed his daughter wasnot what he thought it was.
SPEAKER_02 (47:03):
Yeah.
I think that's a more conciseway of saying what we were just
saying about it growing andchanging.
Yeah.
Agreed.
All right.
Let me see if I can reflect backthe highlights of our
conversation and listeners.
Hopefully this will becompletely invisible to you, but
we actually had to stop andstart a couple of times.
So I'll do my best.
For this movie Say Anything, wespend kind of a significant
(47:24):
amount of time thinking abouttoxicity in behavior.
And I think there are someoverlaps with toxicity around
masculinity, for sure.
I mean, intentionally so, whenwe see Lloyd figuring out what
does it mean to be a man versusbeing a guy and like going and
get other men, his age boy,boys, ideas about how to deal
(47:48):
with this breakup and some ofthe horrible, truly toxic things
that they say to him versus thenwhat he feels that he should do.
And there are many things aboutthis film that, especially in
the context of 1989, are reallyrefreshing vis-a-vis toxic
masculinity, not least of which,which really resonates for us,
(48:08):
that Diane is very smart andpresumably smarter than Lloyd.
And this does not diminish Lloydin any way.
In fact, it's part of what helikes about her.
And that was revolutionary in1989.
And to be frank, it's still alittle bit revolutionary that a
man could be in love with awoman smarter than he and not
(48:30):
feel diminished by that.
I say this from experience.
So that's pretty great.
We also spoke a bit about sortof divorce and just kind of like
both a little flabberasted thatand hope that it was just a
movie trip and not happening atleast often that children were
forced to choose which parentthey would stay with.
(48:52):
It is a little surprising that a13-year-old girl would choose
her dad, not because dads aren'tgood and important parents, but
just because usually the mom isthe sort of primary parent,
especially to a daughter.
And so that is something that Ithink is meant to testify to
just what a good guy and a goodparent Jim has been.
(49:17):
We spent quite a bit of timetalking about young love and the
sort of dangers of young love,that it feels like it's forever
when it really isn't andshouldn't be, because we are who
one another needs when we're 18or 19, but we're not the same
people when we're 30 that wewere when we were 19.
(49:37):
Thank God.
And so if we grow differentlythan our partner, then it might
not work anymore.
And circling back to sort of thetoxic masculinity, I talked
about Lloyd versus his friends.
There also is some comparison ofLloyd versus Jim.
And Jim, in some ways, isnon-toxic.
He does not slut shame Diane forhaving slept with Lloyd, but he
(50:01):
does control and manipulate herinto breaking up with him.
So there's an entitlement whichdoes not align precisely with
toxic masculinity, though theoutcomes are similar insofar as
he diminishes or ignores oroverrides her agency.
You spent some time talkingabout money and money as love
(50:23):
and that sort of equation thatblew my mind a little bit when
thinking about it going theother way, though I see it very
strongly now that we have saidit out loud.
And then you wanted to make surethat we came back to talk, to
say explicitly about what aparent's obligation is and that
what Jim thought the obligationwas to his daughter was actually
(50:45):
maybe not.
So that's what I recall.
Did I miss anything?
No, no, I don't think so.
Okay, cool.
So next time, Em, I'm gonnabring you my deep thoughts about
the road to Wellville.
About the Kellogg Companyfeaturing Matthew Broderick.
SPEAKER_03 (51:07):
That was a very uncomfortable movie to watch
with our father.
Yes.
See you then.
Bye.
SPEAKER_02 (51:16):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(51:38):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Money doesn't exist.
It's something that we haveagreed upon.
It's a delusion we've agreedupon.
And so that means we put our ownneuroses and baggage and
psychology and morality onto it.
And so then you end up havingmoments like this.
You have things like this, whereI can see where Jim could have
been a good man at some point,in part because of things like
(00:21):
patriarchy, in part because ofthings like toxic masculinity,
and in part because of thingslike the way our money works,
the way that our system works.
It twisted him.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed?
Because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_03 (00:51):
I'm Emily Guy Birken, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1989 Cameron Crow film SayAnything with my sister, Tracy
Guy Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:12):
So, Trace, I know from before wehit record that you haven't seen
this, but tell me whatever's inyour head about Say Anything.
SPEAKER_02 (01:20):
Yeah, so I have not seen this one.
And like before we hit record,when you know we were talking
about it, I said, Is that theboombox one?
So that's what's in my head.
Say anything is the movie whereJohn Cusack holds a boombox over
his head as some sort ofromantic gesture.
Never seen the movie, but that'sromantic gesture in my mind has
always been super creepy.
(01:41):
Like it always read a stalkeryrather than as romantic to me.
Not having seen the movie,totally out of context.
Like, yeah.
But out of context, like if anex-boyfriend showed up at my
house with a boom box in themiddle of the night, like it's
not gonna endear him to me.
But that's really all I've gotis the boom that's the boom box
(02:01):
movie.
So I have a very clear pictureof John Cusack in like a trench
coat holding the thing over hishead.
That's all I got.
So why are we talking about thismovie today?
What's at stake for you?
SPEAKER_03 (02:13):
So this was not one of the formative films.
I never saw it until I was incollege, which is unusual for
like this is one of the likeromantic Gen X films.
I mean, that I don't know howyou and I both managed to miss
it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:27):
Well, I mean, we're a little young for it, right?
Like in 89.
Except that you were 10 and Iwas 13.
SPEAKER_03 (02:35):
Except when I was in college, all of my friends were
like, oh my God, say anything.
Like we were young for TheBreakfast Club, but that was one
of our formative films.
True.
So yeah, I don't know how wemissed it.
But it was one where I haveheard it referred to multiple
times as like one of the bestromantic films.
(02:57):
And there is a romance novelthat I've read where they
reference it.
And I remember when I saw it incollege, really being struck by
the financial aspect of it.
So, because, you know, I'm me.
I also remember being struck bythe fact that Diane Court, the
(03:20):
female lead who's played by IoniSkye, is brainy.
She's very, very smart.
And that's why people think thatshe doesn't fit with Lloyd
Dobler, who's played by JohnCusack.
And so that's something like youand I both kind of self-identify
as smart women, which I mean, Idon't think we need to
(03:40):
self-identify.
unknown (03:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
I mean, uh everybody else also identifies us that
way, but yeah.
If we don't reject the label.
SPEAKER_03 (03:47):
Yeah.
And she is very, she's bemusedby his interest in her because
he's not just interested in herbecause she's Ioni Sky and
gorgeous.
He's interested in her becauseshe's so intelligent and
interesting.
So that's what's at stake forme.
And it left me with more tothink about.
(04:10):
I remember the first time I sawit than I was expecting.
I was expecting it to be just,you know, high school
shenanigans and boom boxes andPeter Gabriel, because it's the
In Your Eyes song, which I don'tknow if I've ever mentioned on
the show, but I just adore PeterGabriel.
It's one of my top favoriteartists.
And when I saw a concert of hisa few years ago, it was the best
(04:31):
concert I'd ever seen.
I was only sad because the weekbefore I'd gone to see Nick Cave
in this very like stripped-downshow, that was the best concert
I'd ever seen.
And I really wish I had morethan a week in between because
so then Nick Cave could be thebest for longer?
For longer than like he got sixdays, and then I went to Peter
(04:54):
Gabriel, he blew Nick Cave outof the water.
Long story short, I was notexpecting to have to be thinking
about it for several weeksafterwards, the first time I saw
it.
I do also just want to tell areal quick funny thing.
My spouse came in while I waswatching it and he was like, Oh,
what are you watching?
I was like, say anything.
He's like, Have you seen it?
He's like, Oh, years ago.
It was right before the boomboxmoment.
(05:16):
He's like, You and I was like,You know this.
He's like, Yeah.
And then a second later he saysto me, I'm incarcerated, Lloyd.
And I'm like, is that a meme?
And then as we get to the end ofthe film, there's a point where
Lloyd and Diane go to herfather, who is in jail.
Diane refuses to get out of thecar.
(05:36):
And so Lloyd goes in and istalking to him, and at some
point says something along thelines of, How are you?
And Jim goes, I'm incarcerated,Lloyd.
And I like turn to my husbandand I was like, How is it that
you remembered that?
He's like, It's three words.
Like, but why did that stick inyour head?
And we've decided thatparticularly in this current
(05:57):
hellscape of 2026, when we askeach other how you're doing, our
response will be, I'mincarcerated, Lloyd.
Oi.
So as for why now, I don'tremember how it ended up on the
list, probably because I wasthinking about it because of
Gross Point Blank, because ofJohn Cusack.
I'm not sure.
Since you haven't seen it, I'mgonna give you kind of a basic
(06:20):
rundown of the plot.
Do you want to give me somepostcards from the destination
first?
Oh, good thank you.
Thank you for reminding me.
I do want to give you somepostcards from the destination.
I want to talk about non-toxicmasculinity and toxic
masculinity.
That's I feel like what theentire film is about in a lot of
ways.
I want to talk about smart womenand fathers and daughters.
(06:42):
I want to talk about divorce andespecially divorce in the 80s
because it feels like we've comea long way from there.
I'm gonna want to talk aboutmoney because that is an
important plot point, and thenthat is also part of I think the
mask the toxic masculinity ofDiane's father.
And then like parentalobligations.
(07:05):
And I want to talk about younglove and sex.
So those are some of the thingsthat I think are gonna be
important aspects of this film.
So now that you have somepostcards, cool basic rundown of
the plot.
So it is set in like suburbsSeattle.
We meet Lloyd Dobler, who iskind of a sort of a slacker, but
(07:26):
he just kind of aimless guy.
Senior in high school, everyoneis graduating.
What we know about him is thathe it loves kickboxing, which at
the time was a an emerging sportthat no one had heard of.
And his parents are in the army.
They're currently stationed inGermany, and they have basically
pawned him off to his oldersister, who is played by his
(07:48):
actual sister, Joan Cusack, whois a single mother of a little
boy.
And so, and it's pretty clearthat this is an apartment that
is maybe like a one ortwo-bedroom apartment.
And so Lloyd is sleeping in theliving room.
It's not an ideal situation.
Lloyd has two best friends.
They are both girls.
Corey, who is played by LilyTaylor.
(08:10):
She has had a wonderfulcharacter actor career, but I
really wish she had gotten moreof the uh amazing parts that I
think that she was could haveplayed because she's amazing.
And then an actor I don't know,but she was playing, I think her
name was like DC or C D orsomething like that.
So he's two best friends who areboth girls.
(08:33):
And he's saying, I'm gonna askDiane Court out to them.
And they're like, You'rereaching too high.
She's out of your league,basically.
We meet Diane while her fatheris driving her to the uh the
graduation ceremony.
She is the valedictorian.
(08:53):
It is clear her father dotes onher and he is a single father.
First time you watch it, you getthe impression that maybe he's a
widower.
She gives her speech, and peopleare it's kind of crickets a
little bit.
And she had said something toher dad about maybe I shouldn't
have taken those college coursesthat took me off campus because
(09:16):
I feel like nobody knows who Iam.
And after the ceremony, andLloyd doesn't have anyone there
because his parents are inGermany and his sister got stuck
at work.
So he had no one to celebratehis big graduation.
Afterwards, so everyone's takingpictures.
And so Lloyd gets his friendCorey, Lily Taylor, like, take a
picture of me and Diane.
(09:37):
And so he like basically runsthrough where she is to take a
picture.
So it looks like he's there withher.
Like a photobomb almost?
Like basically a photo bombbefore photobombing was a thing.
We see Lloyd call Diane's houseand reach Jim.
He is played by John Mahoney,who was the father on Frasier,
(09:59):
accidentally charm him.
Jim starts off with, Are you theone with the Mustang?
Are you the one with the truck?
Are you the one with the andhe's like, Well, I'm the one who
drives this thing, whatever.
I don't think you've ever metme.
My name is Lloyd Dobler.
And and he like, he's like,Well, let me get your phone
number, I'll have and I'll I'llleave a message for her.
Lloyd repeats his phone numberlike three times.
(10:22):
And then as Jim is about to hangup, Lloyd says, She's pretty
great, isn't she?
And that really charms Jim.
And Jim's like, yeah, she reallyis.
We learn that Diane has won afellowship to England to study.
It's, you know, kind of furtherproof of how great she is.
And we learn that Jim owns anursing home.
(10:44):
Diane has a job there, like sheworks there for her dad.
Diane ends up calling Lloydback.
She doesn't really have any ideawho he is, but he ends up
charming her.
And he invites her to thegraduation party that one of
their classmates is holding.
And based on him like justcharming her, she says, All
(11:07):
right, I'll go with you to that.
And he is a just lovely.
She's he is lovely to her.
When he goes to pick her up, hesays to Jim, like, I want you to
know I am a kickboxer.
I consider myself an athlete, soI very rarely drink.
I want you to know your daughteris safe with me.
(11:27):
Now that construct is a littlegross in some ways, but it's
also like, remember that it's1989.
He's trying to be clear like, Iwant to make sure that she
enjoys herself and that she issafe and has fun.
And that's my job tonight.
Right.
And her well-being matters tohim.
Her well-being matters to me.
(11:48):
When they the other thing that II really love, they get to the
party and they're immediatelyseparated.
And he doesn't have a problemwith it.
But he keeps kind of likelooking over and checking on
her.
Like, you having fun?
You doing okay?
And she has a wonderful time atthe party.
And she meets all of thesepeople who she never really knew
that well.
(12:08):
And it's not weird.
It's just, you know, like, Iwish I'd known you better.
And there, she has brought heryearbook and she asks people to
sign the sign it.
And they stay out overnight.
She calls her dad aroundmidnight, and some of the other
kids are like, You have to call?
And she's like, No, it's okay.
I don't mind.
Like, he just wants to know I'mokay and he's worried about me.
(12:31):
At the end of the night, andthey've stayed overnight until
they're the last ones at theparty.
They give a kid a ride home andthen they park at a 7-Eleven,
get something like to eat orsomething, and then walk back to
her house.
And there's a moment where sheis has dressed up for it.
She's wearing a dress andwearing like these high heels.
(12:54):
And Lloyd says, Oh, there's someglass.
Be careful.
There's some broken glass on thesidewalk.
And like he brushes it away andkind of steers her around it.
She tells him she had a nicetime.
She's like, I wasn't expectingyou to be so basic.
And when she gets in, she tellsher father, like, Oh, I feel
like I blew it.
(13:14):
I told him he was basic.
And her father says, I don'tthink he's dying of
embarrassment.
And you see him out on thestreet, like celebrating, like
with his hands over his head,like, woohoo.
So they start hanging out infriendly ways.
He's not pushing for anythingphysical or anything like that.
Their second date is he comesover for dinner.
(13:38):
Jim has some of his friendsover.
At that little dinner party, welearn that Diane is terrified of
flying.
And so she's worried about theflight to England.
She's never been on a plane.
She tried to go when she waseight.
She freaked out so much shestarted screaming that Jim said,
turn the plane around becausethey were still on the tarmac, I
think.
They were, um, got off the planeand they were told never to fly
(14:00):
the friendly skies with whateverthat airline was again.
And so, so we know that this isa very like deep-seated fear.
Jim and his guests start asking,Lloyd, what is it you want to
do?
What are your ambitions?
And he doesn't have any.
He says, like, well, my dad's inthe army, he wants me to join,
but that that just doesn't feellike it's right for me.
(14:23):
And then he has this wonderfulthing where he's like, I don't
want to do anything for a livingwhere I'm selling or buying or
processing or anything, or well,where I'm selling anything
that's bought or processed, orbuying anything that's sold or
processed, or processinganything that's sold or bought.
It really kind of dims Jim'sview of him.
(14:43):
In the middle of the dinner, twoIRS agents show up and tell Jim
that he is being investigatedfor tax fraud having to do with
his nursing home.
The romance between Diane andLloyd continues.
Diane tells him, I'm only herefor another 16 weeks and then
I'm going to England.
He's like, Well, then I want tospend 16 weeks with you.
(15:04):
You know, like then I'll takewhat I can get.
We learn a little bit more aboutDiane's backstory.
She tells Lloyd that her parentsgot divorced when she was 13 and
she had to stand in a courtroomand say who she wanted to live
with.
And she chose her dad becauseshe felt safe with him and she
can always say anything to him,which is where the title of the
(15:26):
movie comes from.
Diane introduces Lloyd to theresidents at the nursing home
because Lloyd says somethingabout like, I feel a little
weird around older people.
There's some kind of lovelyscenes where he meets an older
woman who's a writer.
He introduces the residents to amovie, things like that.
You see one night where shespends the night with him.
(15:48):
It's in the backseat of his carwhile Peter Gabriel's in your
eyes is playing and they havesex for the first time.
This is another lovely scenebecause they're in the backseat
of the car and she goes, You'reshaking.
He's like, No, I don't, I don'tthink I am.
And she's like, Are you cold?
He's like, Well, I'm notshaking.
He clearly is.
And she's like, Why are youshaking?
He's like, I really don't know.
And it's clear that this is likean emotional thing for him.
(16:12):
When she comes home that nextmorning, her father is angry at
her because she didn't call.
And she apologizes for notcalling.
And then she says, I can'timagine what you must think of
me.
But then they sit down and shesays, I could feel there was
this expectation from Lloyd,like he wanted, you know, he
(16:34):
never said anything, but I knowhe wanted more like physically
the look that someone would getin their eyes.
You know that look.
And Jim goes, Yes, I know thelook.
And she's like, So I had decidedI wasn't gonna do anything.
And Jim like looks relieved.
And then she's like, and then Ikind of attacked him anyway.
And Jim is like clearly not okaywith this, but he doesn't say
(16:55):
anything to his credit.
He does not say anything.
And she says, I love that I cantalk to you.
I love that I can tell youthings.
It feels like things don'tactually happen until I've told
you about them.
Lloyd writes a letter to her.
He does it on his owninitiative, but his friend Corey
also has suggested, like, youknow, make sure that you let her
(17:18):
know, like, that this is likeemotionally important for you.
And so he has already writtenthe letter and shows it to her.
And she's she says, Yeah, thisis great.
Send it to her.
That is basically saying, like,I'm so glad we're together.
I don't remember exactly thewording of the letter.
I'm sure there are fans of thefilm who know it by heart
because it's not that long.
(17:39):
And he mails it to her.
Jim picks a fight with Diane,basically saying that she should
break up with Lloyd and that sheshould, you know, give him a
gift, you know, let him knowthat this is like, cause he's
like, You're gonna, you're notgonna see each other anymore
anyway, when you go to England.
Give him a gift.
It's okay.
(17:59):
Tell him that, you know, youneed to focus on your own life.
And she's like, But dad, Ireally like him.
He keeps pushing and she finallysays, Dad, I love him.
And then Jim drops the likefighting stance and says, like,
maybe I'm being selfish.
Maybe I'm being this.
I it's just I have so few weeksleft with you.
(18:19):
And it's very clear to an adultoutside observer he's this is a
manipulation tactic.
But to Diane, it feels like herdad is actually telling her the
truth now.
So she breaks up with Lloyd andgives him the gift that her dad
suggested she give.
And it's a pen.
It's a pen.
And she says, Please write to mewith this.
(18:41):
Lloyd is devastated.
He goes to see Corey.
Corey says, Are you gonna try toreach out to her?
He's already called her a bunchand he says, I'm not gonna do it
anymore.
I'm a guy, I have pride.
And Corey says, Don't be a guy,be a man.
And so we see him call one moretime and leave a message.
And this is when answeringmachines were messages you could
(19:02):
hear as they were being said.
And we see Diane like reallywanting to pick up, and again,
Jim manipulating, like, pick upif you want to pick up, that
sort of thing.
That's when we see the boomboxmoment.
The morning after that, or theboombox moment is at dawn.
So that same day, Diane goes tothe IRS office and speaks to an
(19:27):
agent and says, Look, I'msupposed to be going for this
fellowship in England.
I have this boy that I've beendating, and all I can think
about is what's going on with mydad.
I don't know what's happening.
He won't talk to me.
Please tell me what's going on.
I need to understand what'shappening in my life because of
what's going on with my dad.
And the agent is very kind butfirm.
(19:51):
Like, your father is guilty.
Here are like some indicators.
And one of the things he says islike, he spent money on things
and they're all about$9,000.
And we all already heard thatsomething that he owns cost
$9,000 because that's thethreshold to try to avoid an
audit.
And so he's like, you canprobably find information if you
(20:16):
look.
You can, if you look, you canprobably find what you need to
know.
So she goes home and she startssearching and she finds a
storehouse of cash in a box thatwe know that her father like
keeps locked, and so she prys itopen.
So she drives to the nursinghome and confronts her father,
who admits it.
He lies.
She asks him twice in twodifferent ways, and he lies, and
(20:41):
then she tells him she found themoney, and so he admits it.
And he tells her He admits he'sbeen in embezzling.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
What does he admit?
SPEAKER_03 (20:48):
So what he has been doing when the patients die, he
basically steals their state, hesteals their money.
He's making up patients and he'staking money from these patients
that they're not paying, likethey're not intending to pay.
Okay.
He says, like, may I havesomeone like me take care of me
when I'm old?
(21:09):
He's like, I give these people,you know, this lovely life that
their family isn't doing.
And honestly, he's not wrong.
He feels he's entitled to theirthis money because he takes care
of them.
But he says, But the money's notfor me, it's for you.
I did this so that you wouldhave independence.
She is furious at him.
(21:30):
She's like, We were alwayssupposed to be honest with each
other, and you lied to me.
And she runs off and she findsLloyd and tells him, like, I'm
sorry, it's all true about mydad.
I need you.
And he says, Do you need me ordo you need someone?
And then he immediately says,Never mind, I don't care.
And like, as they hug, she says,No, I need you.
(21:53):
And so she moves into the tinyapartment with Lloyd and his
older sister.
And then the next scene, We seeis Jim's lawyer negotiating his
plea deal.
He's gonna have nine months injail and have to pay something
like$125,000.
So just before Diane leaves forEngland, Lloyd takes her to say
(22:14):
goodbye to her father in jail.
Diane won't get out of the car,so Lloyd's in talking to Jim.
And Jim asks, like, So are yougoing with her to England?
Lloyd says, Well, I was thinkingabout it and I was thinking,
like, I don't want, you know, Idon't want to hold her back or
anything like that.
And Lloyd, or excuse me, Jim isdelighted.
(22:35):
And then Lloyd says, and then Ireconsidered and realized, like,
I'm very good at being herboyfriend and supporting her and
making sure she has what sheneeds so that she can shine.
So I am gonna go with her.
And Jim like freaks out at himand is really angry at him.
And that's when the I'mincarcerated, Lloyd is.
(22:58):
Diane has written him, writtenJim a letter, which Lloyd gives
to him, which is not a very goodletter.
Lloyd says, I haven't read it.
It's what?
It's not a very good letter.
It doesn't say that she lovesher dad.
It's angry.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (23:12):
And Lloyd says, I haven't read it, but if it's the
one that ends with, I'll alwayslove you, then it gets better.
And like Jim turns to the endand he's like, No, it's just
signed with her name.
And Lloyd tries to comfort thisman and says, Look, the fact
that that version exists ismeaningful.
Then Diane comes in and Jim andDiane have a moment where should
(23:36):
they hug each other and thenleave.
And then the last scene is Lloydsupporting Diane through her
panic on the plane, helping hersay, like, like, okay, you know,
if anything goes wrong on theplane, it goes wrong during
takeoff.
So we just need to make it untilthe no-smoking sign goes off.
That's where we end the film.
(23:58):
Okay.
So where do you want to start?
So let's talk about masculinity.
We have these foils ofmasculinity that are really
interesting.
We have Jim, who is in some waysatypical masculinity in that
he's a father.
And that's not to say thatfatherhood isn't masculine.
But when you talk about toxicmasculinity, you generally
(24:20):
aren't talking about girl dads.
And you certainly aren't talkingabout girl dads who are like,
just call me as long as you callme.
Yeah.
I don't care if you stay out allnight.
Yeah.
And who aren't like, I have a 45and a shovel.
I died and would miss you.
You know, to the boyfriend.
To the boyfriend.
There are ways in which this gymreminds me of our dad, Jim, in
(24:43):
that he is absolutely like 100%proud of his daughter and thinks
that she hung the moon and coulddo anything she set her mind to.
But he's also controlling andmanipulative and wants all of
her attention.
And it makes you wonder how itgot to the point where Diane was
(25:08):
in a courtroom saying who shewanted to live with at age 13.
SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
That blows my mind, to be perfectly honest,
especially in the 80s, like thata girl would not that girls
don't have good relationshipswith dads, but like if being
forced to choose, like justnaturally moms tend to be the
primary parent, especially ofgirls.
SPEAKER_03 (25:32):
And we get to meet mom once.
She has lunch with Diane, andDiane is asking her, please say
nice things about dad if the IRSinvestigators come talk to you.
The mom is saying, like, I don'twant to talk about that.
I want to talk about you.
And Diane's like, This is whatme right now.
And the mom's like, No, whatboys are you dating?
(25:53):
Tell me about the boys in yourlife.
And so you get a sense of thatDiane and mom don't connect.
Yeah, that's gross.
Diane felt like she could sayanything to her father, but not
to her mother.
Right.
So all of that iscomprehensible.
That gets to like the fact that,and I don't know if that really
(26:15):
happened in the 80s or if it wasjust a movie trope where the kid
had to choose who they were theylived with.
I don't know.
But just the idea that you'dmake a child have to make that
decision is horrifying to me.
So, in some ways, what Jim doesfor a living, like he owns a
nursing home where he takes careof older residents, like the one
(26:39):
we we meet with a name, I can'tremember her name, but she's 93.
Like these are older folks whohe's like caring for.
This is a nurturing kind of man.
And yet, even within thatnon-toxic masculinity is this
very toxic entitlement,entitlement to his daughter.
SPEAKER_02 (27:04):
Just in general.
I feel like that the entitlementruns through.
Cause like you named the nursinghome as a evidence of his
nurturing.
unknown (27:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (27:10):
But he felt entitled there.
I'm nurturing you, therefore youowe me more money.
SPEAKER_03 (27:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He even says when the I'mincarcerated, Lloyd moment, he
says, like, I shouldn't have tolose my daughter because of
this.
It's like, you don't get todecide what you lose because of
this.
unknown (27:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:30):
You have done something seriously wrong, like
immoral, unethical, illegal,obviously.
A fundamental betrayal of somany people, including Diane.
SPEAKER_02 (27:44):
Yeah.
Well, the entitlement around thedaughter is around Diane is just
the toxicity there, from justfrom what you've told me, I
haven't seen this film.
Is he actually, as proud of heras he is, doesn't believe in her
agency.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (28:03):
Yes.
And so it's that kind ofparental pride where it's not
exactly proud of her, but proudof her reflection of him.
SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
Yes.
She is another accomplishment ofhis.
Yes.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
And so that is it's a fascinating thing to look at.
SPEAKER_03 (28:32):
Especially because it's also clear that he really
as much as he is capable, heloves her.
Yeah.
And in some ways, he is a betterfather than most that you see in
80s movies to a teenage girl.
SPEAKER_02 (28:48):
Well, there is no slut shaming, so.
SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
Yeah.
It's really it's a he's acomplex character.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I kind of wish this had been
one of my formative formativefilms, because the complexity of
his character is fascinating.
He's still a villain, but he'sgonna remain in Diane's life and
she's going to have complexfeelings about him.
(29:11):
And it's just fascinating.
I think it's like fascinatingstorytelling, fascinating in
terms of like how she is goingto figure out like the things
that he gave her that were goodand the things that he gave her
that were toxic and not knowingwhich or which.
SPEAKER_02 (29:26):
So I'd like to stay here and because you sort of
started, we were talking aboutthis like about vis-a-vis
masculinity, the toxicityvis-a-vis masculinity.
So I think I want to put this inconversation with the fact that
QSAC's character says, I have mydignity, I'm a guy.
And a female character says,Don't be a guy, be a man.
(29:48):
And like, what are theimplications then of that?
Because then the action tofollow, to be a man, is the
boombox moment, right?
SPEAKER_03 (29:55):
Yes.
So now in between, there's apoint where he's like recording
something on on a like a littledigital recorder, not digital,
but tape recorder, notes toCorey.
And one of the things he'ssaying is, like, I have too many
female friends.
I need to guy have guy friends,go hang out with the guys.
And so he goes and meets up withCorey's ex-boyfriend, Joe, and
(30:18):
then three other guys.
And then there's a little kidthere who's like, I don't know,
12, who are hanging out outsideof a gas station on a Saturday
night.
And he's like, What do I do?
And they all give him reallytoxic advice, which is basically
like one of them is find find agirl who looks just like her,
and then like, you know, havesex with her and dump.
(30:39):
And have sex with her.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
But dump her and like devastateher.
I can have like there's so manygirls in Seattle.
Let's go meet, like, you can gomeet a girl.
And like, there's it's all likethe very typical toxic
masculinity.
So Lloyd is listening to all ofthese men, these young men,
(30:59):
these boys.
I mean, they're they're all like18, 19 years old, talking about
like how they deal with it.
And he's like, if all of you areexperts, why are you sitting
here alone on a Saturday nightwith no women around?
When he gets back in his car andhe's back on his recorder, he's
just like, that was a mistake.
The movie shows us what a guydoes.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (31:19):
We see Corey, and it's played for laughs in a way
that I'm not very comfortablewith.
Corey had had this reallytumultuous relationship with
Joe, who had been unfaithful toher.
She's a songwriter and she'slike, I wrote 63 songs this year
and they're all about Joe.
And like Joe lies when he criesand things like that.
There's a comment about how sheended up in the hospital because
(31:42):
she tried to die by suicide, butshe's okay now.
And then we see at thatgraduation party, Joe shows up
with Mimi, who he had cheated onCorey with.
And then at one point he findsCorey.
He's crying.
He says to her, like, I missyou, babe.
And like, I want to get backtogether.
And then he's like, Mimi's goingoff to college.
(32:04):
So, and he's like, Let's go havesex.
And she's like, Absolutely not.
We're also given that example,which is a lack of faithfulness.
So the boombox, the calling, issupposed to be in conversation
(32:24):
with that.
It's like a foil to that of thisis what a man does, which is
like is faithful.
If you're comparing Lloyd toJoe, yeah, Lloyd is definitely
non-toxic compared to Joe.
Part of what the problem is, isbecause we can see what Diane is
going through, we know shedoesn't actually want to break
(32:45):
up with Lloyd.
SPEAKER_02 (32:47):
That's exactly what I was thinking.
So I think it's faithfulness,but it's like in the broadest
sense of that word, not just inlike exclusivity and not
sleeping with other people, butin actually like being faithful
to the human being, like likecaring about the actual human
being and not just the woman whohappens to be closest and or
willing.
(33:07):
And so it's actually aboutDiane, not just the fact that
she's female and willing.
And so in that sense, like thatall okay, great.
Yes, good.
And the last point you madefeels super important because I
feel like one of the reasonsthat, like, in my head, without
(33:29):
context, the boombox momentbothers me is that like, like
that sort of sense, like, youknow, she turned you down.
So what are you gonna do?
You gotta don't give up, yougotta keep trying.
Like, no, she said like no is afull sentence.
You know, she made her intentionclear.
And so this movie, because we dosee that that's not what Diane
(33:51):
actually wants, that she hasthis villainous dad, makes it
okay.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
When the movie ended, because my spouse stayed
for the end of it and I it endedand credits are rolling.
I'm like, I'm not sure how Ifeel about this movie.
Lloyd says, like, I don't thinkhe says being Diane's boyfriend,
but something along those lines,like, I figured out what I want
to do for a living.
I want to be with Diane.
I'm good at it.
We have seen evidence.
Yes, he is.
He is very good at being therefor her, supporting her, getting
(34:19):
out of her way.
All the things that her dad isnot, actually.
But he's still an aimless19-year-old boy.
And young love, mmm, like, isthat gonna last?
SPEAKER_02 (34:33):
And so part I'm sorry, but defining your
existence and purpose on oneother person is a really bad
idea for both parties.
SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
Yes.
What feels refreshing about itis that in 1989, it would be a
woman doing that for a man.
Totally.
Yes, agreed.
The gender swap is refreshing.
I agree.
Like Jim has a point in beingkind of unimpressed with Lloyd's
(35:04):
lack of direction.
And like we also see Lloyd issaying, like, uh, because
there's at one point he runsinto the career counselor who
says, You never met with me.
Every single other person inyour graduating class met with
me and put something in theirfolder.
And he said, Yeah, but how manyof them are really gonna do what
they said?
Right.
(35:24):
And like he he makes a goodpoint, but it's also like you
need to head somewhere.
And following a person, uh yeah,it just it worries me because
that seems like a very bad plan.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
Well, it just puts so much pressure on Diane.
I mean, she's thishigh-achieving kid who like
cares deeply about others, andlike it's just it's too much
pressure on her.
So now she's not gonna be ableto actually be honest about what
she wants if what she wants isnot him anymore.
Yes.
Because he's put everything inher.
SPEAKER_03 (36:01):
And maybe projecting a little bit here.
It's been clear that he doesn'thandle being cut loose well.
Right.
It also seemed revolutionarybecause the fact that we've got
this smart woman who's got thisabsolute devotion and support
(36:22):
from a young man who is not inany way intimidated or he
doesn't feel diminished in anyway by the fact that she's
smarter than him.
That's still fuckingrevolutionary, to be honest.
Yeah.
So I think all of that is great.
And if they were like, if itwere a story about 39-year-olds,
(36:46):
I don't know.
I and like the thing is there Idon't know that Cameron Crow
intended for us to believe thatthey're gonna be it's a happy
ever after, it's a happy fornow.
Because they're not done yet.
They're still cookie dough,they're not cookies.
SPEAKER_02 (37:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:01):
They're each what the other needs at the moment.
And that there's somethinglovely and wonderful about that.
And so that's something that isit's a story worth telling.
And the story doesn't need tohave doesn't need to tell us
what happens next, doesn't needto editorialize on what's going
to happen.
(37:23):
I do worry having lived throughthat age and just knowing how
toxic aimlessness can be foryoung people, even though Lloyd
has shown himself to be so opento whatever happens in a lot of
(37:43):
ways.
SPEAKER_02 (37:44):
Yeah.
I mean, when you say worry, likehonestly, my bigger worry is
that they do work out, that theyend up married and like 25 years
from now, she's like, feelsresentful that she has this
additional like obligation sincehis only purpose is her.
SPEAKER_03 (38:02):
Well, I mean, he seems like the kind of person
who would then be like thisamazing dad, because he's he's a
great uncle to a sister's kid.
We all need support personnel.
Do we want them to be our oursignificant other?
Yeah.
I agree that the real concernabout young love is that they
make it.
SPEAKER_02 (38:23):
Yeah.
If he doesn't find the anadditional purpose besides being
your partner.
unknown (38:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:29):
Although we do see him teaching at a kickboxing
studio and saying, like, I can'tbelieve I get paid for this.
So I mean, there's he's got morein his life than just her.
Okay.
It's also like this is a sliceof life.
So let's not put on it what'snot on it.
Sure.
The concern is, considering howformative this film was for so
(38:51):
many of our generation, wannathat there is something to
consider after the credits role.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
Yeah.
I think we're running a littleshort on time.
I want to make sure, and this isthe I in some ways connected.
I want to talk about the moneyaspect of this.
In part because, like part ofthe part of what makes young
love not last is the day-to-daystuff like money.
That, you know, you can't smackup against the like the
(39:20):
responsibilities of the realworld like money with the
idealism of young love andexpect everything to turn out
peachy necessarily.
That is part of what Jim istelling himself he's doing for
Diane.
He's like, He, I did this foryou so you could be independent,
(39:40):
financially independent.
And it's an it's another form ofcontrol.
Because instead of trusting thatshe has the agency to be able to
handle herself because he hasraised her to be smart, to be
savvy, to know how to handlelike jobs and money and all of
(40:04):
that.
Instead of trusting that, he'sputting his finger on the scale
saying, like, no, no, no, I'mgoing to provide this for you so
you don't have to worry.
And it's another, like, this isa reflection of me rather than
it being actual belief and pridein his daughter.
(40:24):
That gets to, I've talked beforeabout like money scripts.
So he gives her a car as hergraduation present.
It's a stick shift, and we seeLloyd teaching her how to drive
it.
Providing gifts to people youlove, that's not an uncommon
money script.
Equating money with love is notan uncommon money script.
(40:46):
And actually, it makes sensethat this man who has made has
like his career is a nursinghome where he kind of gives this
Ursatz, family love, to thesenursing home residents that he
would then feel entitled totheir money.
Because I'm giving you the loveyour family didn't give you, and
(41:09):
that equals money.
And so he then wants to show hislove to his daughter with this
money.
But it's all a mess because noneof it is real love.
None of it is really how moneyworks because she's overwhelmed
(41:30):
by the gift of the car.
She's going to England.
So what's going to happen tothat car?
SPEAKER_02 (41:35):
Right.
She can't take it with her.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:37):
Although she could, but it would be very expensive.
Yeah.
When he gives it to her, shedoesn't know that she's going to
England.
So to be fair, but still, theyknew it was a possibility.
Like she had applied for this.
It shows again another facet ofJim trying to control his
daughter and seeing her as anextension of himself rather than
(42:00):
as a full and complete person onher own who is capable.
SPEAKER_02 (42:05):
Yeah, I hear that.
I hear that.
I want to circle back to the athing that you said about love
and money.
I think this is really I'mfascinated by this.
I mean, we've talked about moneyscripts before on the podcast.
So listeners go back and listento the Wall Street episode or
the Avalon episode to hear moreabout that.
But I want to stay with thisbecause, like, in my mind, lots
(42:29):
of people I know like givegifts, spend more money to show
how much they love.
But what you just described withthis character is that it goes
the other direction too.
He's giving love, airsatz love,family, airsatz family love is
the way you phrased it, to theresidents of his nursing home.
And therefore he thinks thatentitles him to money.
(42:50):
Like there's an equivalency inboth directions in this
narrative that I'm not sure Ifully like wrapped my mind
around in earlier thinking aboutthis.
Like I'm always thinking aboutthe way people spend money to
show love.
But you're naming that at leastsome of the time, in this
(43:11):
example, for instance, that onemight give love to get money or
feel entitled to some money as aresult of giving love.
And that's a really interestinglike twist on it.
I was not really considering,but now that you've said it, I
see how that happens.
Like I'm just thinking ofexamples of that in my mind.
So I just wanted to like circleback to that and underline it a
(43:32):
little bit.
SPEAKER_03 (43:33):
We know someone personally who's like that.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
Yes.
And I was thinking of thatperson, I think, in the way that
in the other, you know, in thelike spending more money to show
love and when other people don'tspend money.
SPEAKER_03 (43:46):
Not even that, but also buying love by spending
money on someone to make them afriend.
Right.
Right.
So that is something that youcommonly see.
Right.
But then also feeling like lovehas a price.
Because if you think of moneythat if that way, if you think
of money equals love, then thatmeans love has a price.
SPEAKER_02 (44:07):
And I do think that that person that we're both
thinking of, who's an extendedfamily member of ours, like felt
entitled to money that was nothers because of the love that
she had for the person to whomit did belong.
SPEAKER_03 (44:21):
It's all tangled up because when you start thinking
of it that way, there's nocrisp, clear definition of
either money or love.
SPEAKER_02 (44:29):
Well, and then you get into all this messy things
where like the money that's likeas exampled in this movie, the
money was not Jim's.
But he felt that he was entitledto it because of his conflation
of love and money.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (44:43):
Yes, exactly.
It's fascinating.
Like it's a fascinating,especially because of the
character study we have of Jim.
He's not Gordon Gecko.
He is not out to get likeextract every single penny out
of everyone.
And it really does seem like hecares for the residents of his
nursing home as much as he iscapable of.
(45:03):
Right.
He does nurture.
Well, which is why he feelsentitled to their money.
SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
If he did exactly them, he wouldn't feel entitled.
SPEAKER_03 (45:10):
But that's why I find like the these money
conversations so fascinating andwhy I have been telling people a
lot lately.
I've been writing about moneyfor 15 years.
I started off as like bleedingheart leftist and I am now like
burning to the ground,radicalized.
Money doesn't exist.
It's something that we haveagreed upon.
(45:30):
It's a delusion we've agreedupon.
And so that means we put our ownneuroses and baggage and
psychology and morality onto it.
And so then you end up havingmoments like this.
You have things like this, whereI can see where Jim could have
been a good man at some point.
And it got twisted.
And in part because of thingslike patriarchy, in part because
(45:53):
of things like toxicmasculinity, and in part because
of things like the way our moneyworks, the way that our system
works.
It twisted him.
SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
Right.
And his genuine care and concernfor his daughter's well-being,
which again got twisted intothis control over her and a
denial of her agency.
But I can see that it startedfrom genuine care and concern
about her well-being.
SPEAKER_03 (46:17):
You could see him like holding like an infant
Diane thinking, like, I want youto have the world, which is a
lovely parental sentiment thatneeds to grow as your child
grows and needs to adapt andchange as your child adapts and
changes.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (46:36):
And allow room for them to be full human beings
with agency.
Exactly.
Well, we have about threeminutes left, Em.
So do you have any well, youhave a final point you want to
make before I wrap us up, orwould you like me to reflect
back to you?
SPEAKER_03 (46:53):
Just the real quick the parental obligation, like
what Jim owed his daughter wasnot what he thought it was.
SPEAKER_02 (47:03):
Yeah.
I think that's a more conciseway of saying what we were just
saying about it growing andchanging.
Yeah.
Agreed.
All right.
Let me see if I can reflect backthe highlights of our
conversation and listeners.
Hopefully this will becompletely invisible to you, but
we actually had to stop andstart a couple of times.
So I'll do my best.
For this movie Say Anything, wespend kind of a significant
(47:24):
amount of time thinking abouttoxicity in behavior.
And I think there are someoverlaps with toxicity around
masculinity, for sure.
I mean, intentionally so, whenwe see Lloyd figuring out what
does it mean to be a man versusbeing a guy and like going and
get other men, his age boy,boys, ideas about how to deal
(47:48):
with this breakup and some ofthe horrible, truly toxic things
that they say to him versus thenwhat he feels that he should do.
And there are many things aboutthis film that, especially in
the context of 1989, are reallyrefreshing vis-a-vis toxic
masculinity, not least of which,which really resonates for us,
(48:08):
that Diane is very smart andpresumably smarter than Lloyd.
And this does not diminish Lloydin any way.
In fact, it's part of what helikes about her.
And that was revolutionary in1989.
And to be frank, it's still alittle bit revolutionary that a
man could be in love with awoman smarter than he and not
(48:30):
feel diminished by that.
I say this from experience.
So that's pretty great.
We also spoke a bit about sortof divorce and just kind of like
both a little flabberasted thatand hope that it was just a
movie trip and not happening atleast often that children were
forced to choose which parentthey would stay with.
(48:52):
It is a little surprising that a13-year-old girl would choose
her dad, not because dads aren'tgood and important parents, but
just because usually the mom isthe sort of primary parent,
especially to a daughter.
And so that is something that Ithink is meant to testify to
just what a good guy and a goodparent Jim has been.
(49:17):
We spent quite a bit of timetalking about young love and the
sort of dangers of young love,that it feels like it's forever
when it really isn't andshouldn't be, because we are who
one another needs when we're 18or 19, but we're not the same
people when we're 30 that wewere when we were 19.
(49:37):
Thank God.
And so if we grow differentlythan our partner, then it might
not work anymore.
And circling back to sort of thetoxic masculinity, I talked
about Lloyd versus his friends.
There also is some comparison ofLloyd versus Jim.
And Jim, in some ways, isnon-toxic.
He does not slut shame Diane forhaving slept with Lloyd, but he
(50:01):
does control and manipulate herinto breaking up with him.
So there's an entitlement whichdoes not align precisely with
toxic masculinity, though theoutcomes are similar insofar as
he diminishes or ignores oroverrides her agency.
You spent some time talkingabout money and money as love
(50:23):
and that sort of equation thatblew my mind a little bit when
thinking about it going theother way, though I see it very
strongly now that we have saidit out loud.
And then you wanted to make surethat we came back to talk, to
say explicitly about what aparent's obligation is and that
what Jim thought the obligationwas to his daughter was actually
(50:45):
maybe not.
So that's what I recall.
Did I miss anything?
No, no, I don't think so.
Okay, cool.
So next time, Em, I'm gonnabring you my deep thoughts about
the road to Wellville.
About the Kellogg Companyfeaturing Matthew Broderick.
SPEAKER_03 (51:07):
That was a very uncomfortable movie to watch
with our father.
Yes.
See you then.
Bye.
SPEAKER_02 (51:16):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(51:38):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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