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Hey, I tell you what is. Big city, hmm? Live, work, huh? But not city only. Only peoples. Peoples is peoples. No is buildings. Is tomatoes, huh? Is peoples, is dancing, is music, is potatoes. So, peoples is peoples. Okay?
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit returns this week with Emily's take on The Muppets Take Manhattan. Although this 1984 film, directed by Frank Oz, still offers plenty of comedy, music, and whimsy, its treatment of women is a little less charming than the Guy Girls remembered.
Kermit, Miss Piggy, and the rest of the gang have just graduated from college and bring their senior musical Manhattan Melodies to New York to try to make it on Broadway. Of course, it's not so easy to find a willing producer, and Oz's storytelling scatters the Muppets across the country while Kermit stays behind. Unfortunately, the screenplay also seems to think that misogyny is just a fact of nature that women must deal with, so the audience must watch Miss Piggy become a badass in the face of catcalling construction workers and purse-snatching scumbags.
And all women in the film are similarly treated, with Janice remarking that she won't take off her clothes no matter how artistic the shoot is, Yolanda the rat constantly getting hit on by Rizzo, Brooke Shields also getting hit on by rats, and the Muppets' college audience laughing off Animal chasing a co-ed. So much for Gen X nostalgia if this was the pop culture written for children.
Still, as Pete might say, Muppets is Muppets. So please, join us!
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deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, women, gen x nostalgia, pop culture, film, comedy, storytelling, cultural commentary, feminism, movies, movie reviews, muppets, kermit the frog, miss piggy, misogyny, romance, 80s and 90s movies, analyzing film tropes, classic movies
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
You don't make art to make it.
You make art because it fulfillsyou.
Whether or not you make it onBroadway or you get the book
deal, or you know, people seeyour work.
You make the art.
SPEAKER_04 (00:15):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_03 (00:35):
I'm Emily Guy Bergen, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1984 film Muppets TakeManhattan with my sister, Tracy
Guy Decker.
And with you, let's dive in.
(00:55):
So, Tracy, I know you've seenthis movie.
Um, It's Muppets.
But tell me, what's in your headabout Muppets Take Manhattan?
SPEAKER_04 (01:03):
The early movies all kind of run together in my head,
but this is the one where theylike go to New York and they're
staying in lockers, right?
The lockers is mostly likelaughing.
Like that's the thing thatreally comes to mind.
For some reason, when I thinkabout this movie, because like
the some of the other thingslike I don't think are actually
(01:23):
from this movie.
Like, this is not where they'redriving across the country and
they see Big Bird going theother way.
Yeah, no, that's a differentmovie.
Yeah.
And it's not the one with thebicycles, like that's the
original Muppet movie.
And they all blend together.
There's advertising, though.
There's advertising, right?
Soap gets you clean.
Is that from this one?
(01:44):
Yes, that's from this one.
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't actually clearly havespecific plot moments in my head
from this movie.
I just have my beloved friendswho are in it because their
name's in the title.
But remind me, like, what?
Well, actually, I know what's tosay because everything Muppets
(02:05):
is like kind of the foundationof our childhood.
But like, talk to me about whythis was the one that you wanted
to put on the list now, whyMuppets Take Manhattan and not
the Great Muppet Caper or theMuppet movie or one of the
others.
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
So this was my favorite Muppet movie growing
up.
And I think it's a familiaritything.
I just, I saw it over and overagain as a kid.
And I'm not sure why.
The Muppets staying in thelockers at the like the bus
station, like they, which alwaysreminded me of the pod hotels
that in Japan that we just oh,in Japan.
(02:38):
Oh, like the one we just stayedin when we were in New York.
Yeah.
I just, I was that was sodelightful.
When they're running out ofmoney, they're like, well, we
could move to cheaper lockers.
Right.
Right.
So that was something that Ireally liked.
I also I think there wassomething that really appealed
to me about the fact that whatthey are doing in Manhattan is
(03:01):
trying to put their college showon Broadway.
And that appealed to me, that itwas this like kind of underdog
dream of the arts, always reallyappealed to me.
I liked that.
And then I also really lovedthat at the end, because Kermit
throughout the film is sayingthere's something missing.
(03:23):
Like it's a great show, but Iknow there's something missing.
And at one point, all of theMuppets leave Manhattan when
they're running out of money andleave Kermit there to keep
trying to find a way to get theshow on Broadway, claiming they
have job offers elsewhere.
And they meet other Muppets whocome with them back to Manhattan
(03:44):
when they, when they get anoffer to put the show on.
And they ask, hey, can ourfriends watch from backstage?
And he says, No, they cannotwatch from backstage.
That's what's been missing.
They need to be in the show.
And like, for some reason, thatmade my little baby heart just
swell.
And we watched this with mywhole family, and like I was
(04:05):
getting a little teary-eyed.
Even though as a kid, becauselike they're in the show and
they've got costumes.
It's five minutes before Curtinrises on opening night when he
decides this.
They've all got costumes, theyknow they're lines.
And like, even as a tiny kid, Iwas just like, that's not how
any of this works.
(04:25):
But that inclusivity wassomething that just made me
really, really happy.
And then there were aspects ofMiss Piggy's story that I really
appreciated, but are kind of alittle don't hold up, huh?
So often they don't hold up.
(04:46):
She's a badass in some ways inthis movie, but she shouldn't
have to be.
That's what's a little ugly.
That's what's it why it'simportant to me.
So let me give you a couple ofpostcards from the destination.
As I said, like it it appealedto me, I think, as a kid, being
about trying to make it as anartist.
(05:09):
That's something I'm gonna wantto talk about.
There's also what it means to bea good friend.
And that's not an unusual thingto see in a Muppet movie or um
or any movie, but especially theMuppets.
Yeah.
And there's like a lot ofdifferent answers to that.
(05:30):
What I wasn't expecting wasthere's a lot about the cost of
being female in this film that Ithink that was not intended.
That was the Frank Oz was thesole director.
Jim Henson needed some time off,or not time off, but he had
enough on his plate.
So Frank Oz was a sole director,although Henson directed one
(05:53):
specific scene.
But Oz was the director, and thestory and script were by male
writers.
So this was just what wasexpected.
And a reflection of the culture.
Exactly.
And there's some deeply embeddedcasual misogyny, some of which
bothered me even as a child.
(06:13):
Others I didn't notice untilwatching it again recently.
There is a bit of an immigrantstory in there that I think is
really interesting andimportant, and I want to talk
about that as well.
And then some romance in therethat I think definitely appealed
to me as a kid.
I kind of want to unpack alittle bit as we talk.
(06:34):
So let me give you kind of asynopsis of the plot, such as it
is.
So we open on Kermit and thegang, which includes Piggy,
Gonzo, let's see, Rolf, Fozzie,Dr.
Teeth, and the Electric Mayhem,let's see, Scooter.
(06:58):
I think that's about the extentof it, who are graduating from
college and they have put ontheir senior play, which is
called Manhattan Melodies, thatto thunderous applause.
And the someone in the audiencehas says, You should take this
to Broadway.
(07:18):
And Scooter says, We should takethis to Broadway.
And Kermit says, I don't know.
I think the script's missingsomething.
And they're all like, Well, butif we take it to Broadway, then
we don't have to, you know,leave each other after
graduation.
We can continue to see eachother.
So they're like, All right,let's do it.
(07:40):
So they go to New York.
And as you remember, they set upcamp in the lockers, which is
just such a delightful visualgag.
The lockers, I think, at GrandCentral Station.
And they start going todifferent producers.
And the first producer theymeet, played by Dabney Coleman,
(08:03):
says immediately, like they playlike three chords basically,
like, I love it.
Start rehearsals tomorrow.
And he's like, but she's gonnaneed$300 from each of you.
And it becomes apparent that heis actually a uh just a con man,
and he gets arrested in front ofthem.
We then have a long montage ofthe Muppets trying and failing
(08:28):
to get anyone interested intheir show.
As the months pass, it is getsto be, I believe, September, and
they are talking about howlittle money they have left and
how they're hungry.
And so they stop in at a diner.
I believe it's called Pete'sDiner.
Wait staff are rats.
This is the first time.
(08:50):
Um Is that the first time wemeet Rizzo?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
It's the introduction of Rizzothe Rat, who is based on there's
a Dustin Hoffman character in amovie, I don't remember what
movie, whose name was RazzoRizzo, Rizzo Razzo, something
like that.
And so Kermit goes to talk tothe owner, who is like kind of
(09:14):
this gruff older man with amustache who speaks with a thick
accent, and who is very kind butgruff.
His daughter comes in and, youknow, says, Sorry, she's late.
Her name is Jenny.
She is studying to become afashion designer.
She's just taken a test for herclass that she's taking for
(09:34):
that.
And she says, like, I'll takecare of things for you so you
and your friends can all getsoup.
The rest of the gang has beenasking Kermit, what should we do
now?
And he kind of like loses histemper at them, like, I don't
know.
I don't know what to do.
And so while he's talking toJenny, they decide, like, we're
putting too much pressure onKermit.
We need to help him by relievingthat pressure.
(09:56):
And so they all decide to leaveManhattan, tell him they've
gotten jobs elsewhere so thatit's not so much pressure on
him.
And so they all scatter to thewinds, saying that they have
jobs in various places whileKermit stays.
(10:17):
He convinces Jenny and Pete togive him a job at the diner
while he continues to try tofind someone who will put on the
show.
So the next part of the movie ishe'll get letters from the gang
talking about what they'redoing, and we see like funny
scenes of what they're up to.
(10:38):
So Scooter is working at a movietheater where he meets some
other Muppets.
We see Gonzo doing like stuntsin, I think, in Michigan, where
we meet some other Muppets.
We see, let's see, Fozzie hasmet up with some other bears and
he's trying to hibernate and hecan't sleep.
SPEAKER_04 (11:00):
I was muted, but I was laughing out loud.
That cracks me off.
SPEAKER_03 (11:08):
He keeps getting rejections from other producers.
And we also see that Miss Piggy,though she claims that she left,
has actually stayed in Manhattanand is spying on Kermit and uh
is jealous of his relationshipwith Jenny because they are
(11:28):
friends and like she hugs himsometimes and things like that.
We do see her, she got a job atthe makeup counter at a
department store, and there'sthis great scene with her and
Joan Rivers putting makeup oneach other and like giggling,
and it's kind of a delightful,funny scene.
And then they both get fired.
We also see that Kermit hasvarious schemes to try to get
(11:53):
people to get interest inManhattan melodies.
So he goes to the famous NewYork restaurant where there's
the caricatures of all thefamous people on the walls, and
he has Jenny draw a picture ofhim, put it up on the wall.
So it looks like he's one of thefamous people.
And he takes down a picture ofLiza Minelli to put himself up
(12:13):
and has Rizzo and his ratfriends like hide under the
tables to whisper aboutManhattan melodies.
But then Liza Minelli happens tocome in and asks the owner,
like, did I do something wrong?
And then the rats are smellingthe food, going, like, that
smells delicious.
And everyone freaks out becausethey come out from under the
(12:34):
tables and are like, rats, rats.
And so Kermit gets thrown out.
So, you know, his schemes justdon't work.
There is a point where Jenny andKermit are in the park, and
Kermit is upset because nothingseems to be working, and she's
like, Let's go for a jog.
Exercise always helps.
And so they're jogging.
Piggy is spying on them, and sheis jogging behind them and
(12:56):
having trouble keeping up.
And then she stops to kind ofcatch her breath and a man
snatches her purse and she getsreally mad.
And so Gregory Hines is puttingon some roller skates and she
says, Excuse me, I need toborrow your roller skates.
She skates after the pursesnatcher in this amazing scene,
(13:17):
like total badass, and then likegrabs him.
The purse snatcher, she it's histiny little purse, and he's
pulling all this stuff.
It's like a Mary Poppins bag.
Like, and my favorite is hepulls a hacksaw out of this tiny
purse.
Because of course the pig has ahacksaw.
(13:38):
And when the police come, theythe the purse snatcher says,
This pig stole my purse.
And the police are like, Yeah,right.
And all the commotion means thatKermit and Jenny see what
happened.
SPEAKER_04 (13:54):
Oh, so Piggy has found out that she's still in
Manhattan.
SPEAKER_03 (13:58):
Kermit and Piggy are arguing.
And Gregory Hines comes runningup saying, like, let me get my
skates back.
I love the idea that GregoryHines and Goofy Piggy were the
same size roller skates.
Yeah, okay.
And this is a hilarious scenewhere Gregory Hines like starts
(14:19):
getting involved in theirargument.
So like he's like, Can I get myskates back?
And then he's like, You twoargue.
I'll just, I'll just untie thelaces while you're talking.
Then he starts, he's just like,giving huggies to Jenny.
Huggies.
Uh-huh.
(14:39):
And then Fonnie's like, you knowwhat?
Keep the skates and jogs off.
And so they end up reconcilingand they take a carriage ride
and they talk about how theywant to be together.
There has been some talk abouthow Kermit has said like they'll
get married once once they haveenough money.
(15:00):
And so once the show issuccessful, and Piggy says
something about, I wish I'dknown you when we were kids.
And so we see like a dreamsequence of like them as that's
what babies came from.
Oh my God.
So Kermit makes Piggy come andand like reconcile with Jenny
and become friends.
(15:21):
And when they get back to thediner, there is a letter from a
big name producer who says hewants to put on Manhattan
melodies.
When Kermit gets there, theproducer is much younger than he
was expecting.
Turns out it's his son.
And the son, who is like in hisvery early 20s, has apparently
(15:44):
his father said he would producea play that he chose.
And, you know, if he could makeit a success, then his the dad
will like allow him to take onmore responsibility in the
production office.
And so the son really liked theidea of Manhattan melodies.
Kermit calls the diner from apayphone and be like to tell
them the great news.
(16:04):
It's so exciting.
And as he he hangs up, he says,I'm going to be there in 20
minutes.
And he walks into the out intothe street and he's hit by a car
and he gets amnesia, which thiswas my first introduction to the
amnesia trope.
I had never seen it before, thismovie.
Of course, Piggy and Jenny arevery worried because, you know,
(16:28):
like hours have passed and hehasn't come back.
The son, and I don't rememberthe producer's name, but he
comes in.
They're like, okay, well, weneed to get all the friends back
to put this show on.
And we've only got a few months.
The son comes in, he's like,actually two weeks, because my
dad said, like, since we'redoing this, we got two weeks.
And we're like, what?
(16:50):
So they get all the Muppets backand they bring their friends
from their various places.
Meanwhile, we see Kermit in thehospital, like he's fine, but
can't remember who he is.
The doctor says, Well, sinceyou're found with no clothes, we
looked up the, you know, localnudist colonies.
And I think that your name is Idon't know, it's something
(17:12):
ridiculous.
SPEAKER_04 (17:14):
Because they looked up a nudist colony?
And it's the name of somebodywho's missing from a nudist
colony.
unknown (17:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (17:20):
Who was a frog?
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
No, they don't make any reference to the fact that
he's a frog.
unknown (17:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
So they say, here's what we can do for you.
We can give you a clean set ofclothes.
Why don't you go out, pick a newname, get a job, start your life
over.
So we see Kermit go to a anoffice building where there's
like a temp agency, and he'she's passing by a an office that
(17:54):
has three other frogs in suits.
And he asks them, Do you knowwhere the staffing agency is?
They're like, Oh, it's down thehall.
They ask him, like, could youhelp us?
And that's what you rememberwhere they they have at agency.
SPEAKER_04 (18:08):
It was Waffle.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
And so he helps them with, I don't remember what
their product.
It was like soap.
Well, it was a soap.
That's all I remember.
Yeah, it was soap.
And I don't remember what theirslogan was.
It was something ridiculous.
And he's like, What about itgets you clean?
And they're like, Oh.
And so they ask him his name,and there's a sign for another,
like, I think for gas, and it'slike Phil Up.
(18:32):
And so he's just like, it'sPhil.
Phil Up.
And they're like, Oh, well, I'mGil, and this is Bill and Jill.
So he becomes the an ad agencyfrog named Phil.
So Jenny is making costumes forManhattan Melodies.
All the Muppets have come back.
In their off time, they wanderaround Manhattan calling for
(18:55):
Kermit and don't find him.
They like kind of cross pathswith the ad agency frogs, but of
course, Kermit doesn't recognizethem and like they don't see
him.
They just, and so they'reopening night, and so it's early
in the day.
The gang and Jenny and theproducer are all at the diner,
(19:17):
like really depressed, going,like, should we just cancel?
What do we do?
The ad agency frogs are walkingby saying, like, why don't we
try a new place for lunch?
And they come in and they sitdown at the booth right next to
where everyone's sitting, alldepressed.
And there are some waterglasses, and Kermit starts
(19:38):
playing the water glasses, doingthe melody of the final song in
the show.
And they look over, and at firstthey only see the other three
frogs.
And then someone walks over andsees, like, no, it's Kermit.
And they grab him.
They take him to the theater,and he doesn't remember.
(19:59):
They spend hours trying toconvince him.
And so finally, Miss Piggy'slike, Don't you remember you
love me and I love you, andwe're gonna get married?
And he starts laughing and verycruel.
He scoffs very cruelly.
And so she gets angry and likekarate chops him.
And so he like And that jogs hismemory.
(20:20):
Jogs his memory.
He like he flies backwards andupside down.
And then he goes, Like, what doyou mean it's tonight?
And like realizes what it is,what's happening, and comes back
to himself.
They're like, Okay, great.
We the show must go on and gethim into his costume.
And that's when I think Fozziesays, like, hey, all our friends
came with us from our travels.
(20:42):
Can they watch backstage?
He says, No, they have to be init.
And then we see the stage play,which has we haven't really seen
this part of it.
So there's a song aboutsomebody's getting married,
which is Kermit and Piggy.
And we see the church, which is,you know, just full of Muppets.
(21:02):
And then Kermit and Piggy get tothe altar, and there's a human
there, and Kermit like kind ofleans over to Piggy, he's like,
I thought Gonzo was gonna playthe pastor.
And she goes, as in she got areal wedding will be real, not
so.
Yeah.
(21:23):
And so the film ends with thewedding song, and then they kind
of end with them in a like moonthat kind of rises up.
Yeah, I kind of remember that.
Yeah, it's very broad way.
Uh-huh.
And then that's the end of thefilm.
So where do you want to start?
(21:45):
I want to start about the costof being female because it it's
what really struck me this time.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (21:51):
It's interesting that that happens when there are
so few female Muppets.
Like, is it about Jenny or is itabout Piggy or both?
SPEAKER_03 (21:57):
It's just throughout.
So, like early on.
When they're in their collegeauditorium, Kermit is saying,
like, thank you, like we havemade it at this point.
And then animal is running aftera co-ed, going, Wall man, whoa
man.
And he's like, Some of us withpsychological help on a daily
basis or something like that.
I was just like, oh, yeah,animal does not age well.
(22:21):
Yeah.
They've made changes to animalthat make sense for what the
intention was.
But yeah, a whole auditoriumlaughs with animal doing that.
But then one of the times whenPiggy is spying, she's wearing a
(22:41):
trench coat and she is standingin front of where there's some
construction.
And a construction worker startsnoticing her and starts saying,
like, hey, pretty, and likestarts like kind of catcalling
her.
And she's just ignoring him.
And then two other constructionworkers start catcalling her.
(23:02):
And it's a children's movie.
So they're not saying anythingvulgar.
But they are very much like it'sand it's played as if, yeah,
this is just what happens.
And when I think this is thefirst time Jenny hugs Kermit.
And so when she sees that, shegets so angry that she grabs
(23:24):
like an iron bar and bend a bar.
I think she bends it and thenshe starts hitting a trash can
with it.
Which scares the crap out of theconstruction workers who like
run away from her.
And that's kind of what I meanabout she's a badass, but she
shouldn't have to be able to be.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (23:41):
It's like I don't remember really liking the fact
they stopped bothering her.
SPEAKER_04 (23:46):
Uh-huh.
And that's not why she did it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
She was just having a reaction to something not
related to them.
Yeah.
And that ew.
Ew.
That was also like it was justunremarkable and unremarked upon
in the film.
SPEAKER_03 (24:05):
Like this is just this is what happens.
And like part of the joke wasthe fact that they were hitting
on a pig.
Right.
So then the scene that Imentioned with Joan Rivers,
which is very funny.
I really appreciate that scene.
So that comes right after theconstruction worker scene.
(24:28):
She comes in, she's late.
She had been on her lunch break.
Piggy.
She piggy.
She piggy.
Yeah.
She'd been on her lunch break,and her her boss is like, you
know, you're late back fromlunch on your first day of work.
And she's like, I'm so sorry, itwill never happen again.
And she comes back in and JoanRivers does her line, like, can
(24:48):
we talk?
Miss Piggy, it's basically like,you know, oh man.
Miss Piggy says, like, am Ipretty?
Because she's feeling insecurebecause of Jenny.
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (25:01):
Joan Rivers says, like, look at you.
Of course you're pretty.
You're very pretty.
There's that similar kind oflike cost of being female
tension where it's just like,why are we talking about this?
This doesn't have anything to dowith your worth or your and but
it's just a given.
And then Piggy says, Well, am Igorgeous?
(25:22):
And Joan Rivers goes like, likeit kind of.
And then they she starts likesaying, like, you know, I I
think you're a little pale.
You just need a little rouge.
And they start putting makeup oneach other and like giggling and
having fun.
And that that ends up being likejust very affirming and fun.
And like they're just, it'shilarious.
(25:43):
It's an it's this hilariousmoment where it's like it almost
feels like pushing back againstthose standards.
I don't know.
I read that the scene wasn'treally working.
And so Frank Oz went out and gotfour gin and tonics, two each
for him and Joan Rivers.
And they drank them and then didthe scene because he does the
(26:04):
voice for Piggy.
And then he had no idea whatthey got when they filmed it
because of the gin and tonics.
He's like, I hope that wentwell.
And so that's part of what wasgoing on with the buttons, and
then as Joan Rivers and Piggyare like looking at each other
and going and like justguffawing at each other.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_04 (26:22):
There's just something very subversive about
it, about like there's somethingreally interesting about that,
given the idiom about lipstickon a pig.
SPEAKER_03 (26:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:33):
And so to have Piggy be, you know, at this makeup
counter and like doing thismakeup with Joan Rivers.
There's something like reallyinteresting in that, in terms of
like the English idiom aboutlike how the idiom means that
something's futile.
There's no point.
It's like putting lipstick on apig and like here they are, and
(26:54):
yet they're having a great time.
And it's really funny.
And then you add to that thefact that this is a puppet.
So I mean, you put blush on thefelt of a puppet.
Like, what do they need?
A new puppet?
How do you wash that off?
Like, so like there's multiplelayers for the viewer, I think,
in terms of like the actual,like the visual metaphor of
(27:16):
putting lipstick on a pig, theactual practical effects of
putting makeup on a puppet, on afelt puppet.
SPEAKER_03 (27:24):
And also Piggy's putting makeup on Joan Rivers.
SPEAKER_04 (27:28):
Yeah.
Well, and recognizing like asthe viewer that like those eyes
that are Miss Piggy's eyes arenot actually eyes, right?
They're just fabric.
So like Oz is like below likedoing like that's also sort of
interesting.
And I think the sort of toplevel of these two women sort of
(27:49):
having fun with this expectationof beauty, which they have been
hired to sell and doing it inlike ridiculous and silly and
ways to amuse each other andthemselves.
I think that's the subversionthat you're seeing.
SPEAKER_03 (28:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember always really likingthat scene.
Always, and part of it is, andit it I think it's the
ginatonics, is that the laughterfeels genuine.
SPEAKER_04 (28:15):
Yeah.
Um.
I mean, and Joan Rivers ischarming.
I think like she's brassy andand charming.
There's a reason she was aspopular a comedian as she has
been in her career.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:29):
But then the fact that they the boss comes over
and fires them both, that'sanother cost of being female.
SPEAKER_04 (28:36):
It's also the fact that they get punished for the
subversion that you found socharming.
SPEAKER_03 (28:40):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
And then the purse snatchingscene is another.
Now part of this is like NewYork in the 80s had the
reputation of like that's what'sgonna happen.
And like part of the reason whyI loved Miss Piggy was she's
like, I am not taking that lyingdown.
You know, she's a badass.
(29:01):
And also the kind of subversionof she's having trouble keeping
up jogging behind Jenny andKermit when she's like feeling
emotional anguish and jealousy,but like, oh no, you got my
purse.
I can't I'm gonna get uh theseroll fine states and deeper
reserves of strength andstamina.
Like, I want my hacksaw back.
(29:24):
But there is that like asouzing, a sense of like women
are a little bit of the butt ofthe joke because it's like women
can't actually do that.
Women can't actually fight backlike that.
There's kind of a it's layered.
SPEAKER_04 (29:39):
It's layered in the fact that like Piggy is the only
like main character who's femaleand they made her a pig, you
know, and they made like thethere are these like extreme and
like it's a Muppet, it's acharacter.
Of course, that like there arethe extreme sort of character
traits.
That's true for all of theMuppets, but she's the only
(29:59):
female one.
I mean, I know Janice is well inthis movie, but Janice is never
like a prime mover among theMuppets.
She's just kind of like one ofthe band.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
Speaking of Janice, when everybody comes back,
there's a point whereeverybody's talking and then it
gets quiet, and then you hearwhat Janice is saying.
And I said to him, I don't carewhat the conditions are, I will
never do that.
Something along those lines.
But it's a line that makes itclear that she's being
sexualized.
Mm-hmm.
With boundaries.
I mean, but still, cost of beingfemale.
(30:34):
Yeah.
All the female Muppets, becausethere's a female rat.
So Rizzo's the only rat workingat Pete's originally, but then
he brings in some rat friends.
There's only one girl, Yolanda,and Rizzo is constantly hitting
on her.
And she keeps hitting him,literally, like, but cost of
being female.
And then there's the casualmisogyny of women be obsessed
(30:59):
with getting married.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:02):
And the fact that Piggy tricked Kermit into an
actual marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:08):
Bothered the crap out of me as a kid.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
Mm-hmm.
That whole like narrative arcabout bitches be crazy.
Like that that's all that womenwant.
Like it was really like forceddown our throats that that's the
thing.
I've been thinking about it alot lately.
Like that sort of, they call itthe relationship escalator
model, where like there's alwayslike some extra level of
(31:31):
commitment that you're supposedto be going toward.
And like it taught us all wewere always failing.
Why are you single?
Why aren't you more serious?
When are you getting married?
When are you having kids?
When are you like there's likethis constant pressure for the
next thing, the next thing, thenext thing until you like win?
I'm putting quotes around that.
(31:52):
And then you're still not happy.
So obviously you're a failure.
You were failing, and then yousucceed, and you're a failure
because you're not happy becausethey told us that all of this
was going to make us happy.
Sorry, this is a total aside.
But like, I think that like thiskind of programming where like
this is all Piggy wants is toget married.
(32:13):
And like there's some sense inwhich Kermit doesn't actually
want to, because when he hasamnesia and doesn't remember who
she is, he's cruel about thepossibility of them being
together.
And then she has to deceive himinto getting that next step on
the escalator.
Like this is what we were taughtwas normal.
Well, and it was written by men.
(32:35):
I yeah, I don't I'm realizingnow that like that well into
which Frank Oz and the otherwriters were dipping, because
they didn't invent it.
Oh no.
But that well that said thatlike we were all like
auditioning and like schemingand like needing to engage in
(32:59):
machinations to like catch a manand trap him.
I've said this in other placesrecently, but it's sort of like
Tom Sawyer's fence.
They made us think we wanted it,but it's actually other people's
work.
This is like a realization I'vehad that you've heard me say,
but like our listeners maybehaven't that like, and I think
(33:19):
this kind of a trope that Piggyand Kermit fall into is part of
how Tom Sawyer made us think wewanted to be whitewashing the
damn fence.
SPEAKER_03 (33:30):
Yeah.
It's part of what I also like,because I I always loved Piggy's
badassery, but it bothered methat she was spying on Kermit.
It bothered me that she lied.
That actually like iscounterindicated.
SPEAKER_04 (33:44):
If you're a badass, you're not insecure like that.
Not that you can't haveinsecurities, but like her
confidence and that kind oflevel of insecurity and jealousy
just don't make sense together.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
Yeah.
I do want to talk about how tobe a good friend.
That kind of leans into thatsomewhat.
The Muppets scatter becausethey're all asking Kermit, what
do we do?
And he kind of snaps at thembecause he's overwhelmed, which
is understandable.
They're in a really toughposition and he's the leader and
they keep asking him and he's hedoesn't know what to do.
And so they together are like,wow, we don't want to make this
(34:20):
harder for Kermit.
We're in a tough place.
Let's make it easier for him.
And then he's really sad thatall his friends have left.
It's interesting because I'mthinking about like them leaving
an act of incredible friendshipbecause they don't want to leave
either.
But it relieves this incrediblepressure on him where he's
(34:41):
feeling responsible for them,but it also makes all of them
sadder.
SPEAKER_04 (34:46):
It feels misplaced to me because it is done with in
dis with deception.
They decide what's best for himand then execute without ever
talking to him about it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's part of what's like mykids were like, I this wasn't
our favorite Meppet movie.
I was like, that's okay.
Like this, I loved it and Iwatched it over and over again
as a kid.
And it's okay if you didn't likeit.
There's moments that I justadore in this movie, but and
there are things that make metear up every time.
Like there's a song montage whenthey all leave called saying
(35:21):
goodbye that makes me tear up.
I wish that the movie had talkedabout it.
But there's supposed to be, youknow, early 20s-something, you
know, right out of college,where like you don't necessarily
know that you should have thisconversation together before
making decisions unilaterallyand with deception.
(35:43):
Like you're trying to do rightby someone you love.
And like, you don't know, you'restill new at this.
You're emotional flailingpuppies of chaos at that point.
In some ways, like the end whereKermit's like, everybody on
stage, kind of, I don't know.
There's a reason why that alwaysmakes my heart grow three sizes.
It makes it clear that likeinclusion is a way of mitigating
(36:08):
that kind of well-meaning harm.
Where instead of saying, like,okay, we're gonna each go into
our own little silo to try toprotect each other, it's saying,
like, no, bring everybodytogether.
We're all in this together.
The fact that this film has lotsof different examples of
friendship and they get itwrong, but they're really
(36:33):
trying.
You know, it's a 40-year-oldmovie.
And I don't like, I don't think,you know, I don't think it did a
terrible job of it.
Like the cost of being femaleand the casual misogyny, yes.
But it would be nice if it hadtaken some time for Kermit to be
like, you should have told me.
(36:54):
We do have Jenny as the voice ofreason multiple times saying,
like, you know, I'm sure yourfriends are thinking about you
too, and they really miss you.
Like she's consistently beingthe voice of reason and saying,
like, how much your friends loveyou and how much all of this
means to everyone.
So we see the like the human,main human character kind of
(37:17):
giving us the lesson that justbecause things don't look like
you want them to, doesn't meanthat you know, your friends
don't care or things like that.
Yeah, yeah.
But the fact that all ofKermit's attempts at deception
to get his show on Broadwaydon't work, I think also
(37:40):
underlines the idea that it'sbetter to be forthright, except
that then Piggy gets married.
SPEAKER_04 (37:49):
It's interesting to think about sort of deception in
this movie.
Because there's a lot of it,right?
Like there's the from the verybeginning, the con man producer
who wants 300 bucks from each ofthem.
It's such an interesting when Istart thinking about those
layers that we talked about withJoan Rivers and Piggy, start
thinking about that, likedeception.
When we're talking aboutpuppets, for which they're not
(38:15):
people, right?
Pretense is the game.
It's a really interesting tolike add those layers of
deception and like when isdeception okay?
And like, like obviously theproducer who was trying to
deceive the Muppets out ofmoney, that's not okay.
But when the f all of theMuppets were like, we need to
(38:36):
protect Kermit, so we're gonnalie to him, like we forgive
them, even though like I wondertoo, like how much the movie
makers wanted us to actuallysort of feel the way that you
and I feel.
Like, well, that's not cool.
Like you made a decision forhim, and how much we were meant
to actually be like, oh yeah,they needed to relieve some
(38:58):
pressure on him.
SPEAKER_03 (39:00):
You know, like well, and it I mean, part of what I
loved about the movie when I wasa kid is seeing what they were
all doing when they werescattered.
Like I and I loved they broughtback new Muppet friends.
SPEAKER_02 (39:12):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04 (39:13):
So they actually get rewarded for the deception in
the universe of the movie.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whereas if they'd done the exactsame thing but talked to Kermit
about it, like the outcome wouldhave been the same, but there
would have been left suffering.
SPEAKER_03 (39:27):
Yeah.
I don't know.
So one thing I do, because Imentioned it, the nature of
making it as an artist, becausewe're running a little short on
time.
I started that at the top ofthis.
There are a lot of stories outthere, and it's because the
people who make stories arepeople who are artists trying to
make it.
Right.
But there are a lot of storiesabout making it as an artist.
(39:47):
Right.
And the dispiriting nature oftrying to make it as an artist.
Watching this as an adult wasinteresting.
I've mentioned before, I writefiction.
I have often on tried queryingagents for novels.
(40:07):
I mean, probably over 20 yearsnow.
And it is soul crushing.
SPEAKER_04 (40:14):
Yeah.
I have gotten discouraged afterlike three or four queries, and
they say it takes like 70.
SPEAKER_03 (40:19):
Seeing this, like there is this sense of, and this
often happens in stories aboutmaking it as an artist.
There's a like a Deus Ex Machinakind of thing.
Now, part of it is because itcomes down to luck often.
Yep.
And that's because luck comes tothose who persevere.
(40:40):
That's not to say that like luckplays a role in every single
success story.
I truly believe that.
But then also like you're notgoing to get lucky if you don't
persevere.
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (40:50):
You need to put yourself in the circumstances
where luck can find you.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (40:55):
But the naivete of the Muppets, where they're like,
oh, we'll be on Broadway by theend of the summer, which I just
took in.
It just went over my head as akid, like the how naive they
were.
And I don't know how much themovie really comments on it.
Like it just lets that be.
SPEAKER_04 (41:14):
I mean, except that their naivete is rewarded by a
con man.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
So immediately.
SPEAKER_03 (41:22):
And I think that also plays into what I love
about the this is what wasmissing.
We need all the bears andchickens and things to join us.
Because what has like the veryhard one realization, it's
slippery.
It's a slippery realization.
(41:42):
I have to like claw to hold onto it, is that you don't make
art to make it.
You make art because it fulfillsyou.
And so whether or not you makeit on Broadway or you get the
book deal, or you know, peoplesee your work, you make the art.
And so that's part of the weneed all the bears and chickens
(42:06):
and things to join us becausethat's what the art is part of
like why little baby Emily isjust like, yay, and gets all
teary-eyed at the end.
Because that's what it is tomake it as an artist, whether or
not you ever see Broadway.
You know, I don't know if anyoneelse would see it that way, if
that's just a uniquely iberkintake from this.
(42:29):
I say that, but I would love touh have the universe challenge
me on that by giving me a chanceto uh see how it feels to be a
New York Times bestseller.
SPEAKER_04 (42:43):
I don't think what you said was like mutually
exclusive.
I mean, like I actually thinkwhat you said is like sort of
what leads to that.
If you write the book to try andmake it to the New York Times,
it's gonna be a shit book.
Yeah.
Because you're not writing itfor you.
So it's it's disingenuous.
SPEAKER_03 (42:58):
Yeah.
And that I think gets to, eventhough Jim Henson was relatively
lightly involved in this.
He was involved in this, butnot, you know, not as directly
as he was in other Muppetproductions.
But I think that gets to part ofthe reason why we love the
Muppets is like, seriously, WTF,they're puppets.
(43:20):
You know, but they are amazing.
And like 70 years ago, if yousaid like one of the most
enduring properties of the 20thcentury will be puppet
marionette hybrids, and everyonewill know them.
They will be globally renowned.
One of them is a frog who's inlove with a pig with blonde hair
(43:43):
and purple gloves.
Like people would have beenlike, What are you on about?
That doesn't make any sense.
And it's because Jim Henson madethe art that spoke to him.
He didn't make it for us.
We just got lucky.
We got lucky.
Yeah.
And so, like That's what I feellike ultimately this movie is
(44:05):
about.
It's about making it by makingthe art that is meaningful to
you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's nice.
I like ending there.
SPEAKER_04 (44:16):
So let me reflect back to you what we talked
about.
We were all over the placetoday.
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
Very much so.
SPEAKER_04 (44:24):
You started this conversation about Muppets Take
Manhattan, talking about thecost of being female and the
casual misogyny of the film,which was obviously not
intention, not intentional, butwas just sort of the movie
makers and the Muppetsreflecting back the society in
which we live.
We spent like wrapped up withthat was the kind of lie we've
(44:47):
been spoon-fed about romance andabout relationships and
commitment that the Kermit Piggydynamic exacerbates, like feeds
into, perpetuates, like did notinvent.
So like I'm not mad at Frank Ozand Jim Henson for this.
Like they like just tapped intoa well that was very plentiful.
(45:10):
I spent some time off on my rantabout how it contributed to the
relationship escalator model,which sells us whitewashing Tom
Sawyer's fence, makes us thinkthat we want to do the
whitewashing, which is actuallysomebody else's work.
There was also like you talkedabout some of the like tension
(45:31):
in this pig puppet who there's alittle bit of like real women
couldn't fight back like this.
And that's part of what's funny.
Part of what's funny is thatthese guys are hitting on a pig,
but like this is what happens.
You know, we're just reflecting,like, what actually happens?
We actually spent a lot, uhseveral minutes talking about
(45:53):
all of that.
You also talked a bit aboutlike, well, we spent some time
talking about deception in thisfilm, whether, and like there's
the ill intent of deception oflike the con man, and then
there's the good intentioneddeception of the Muppets sort of
leaving and lying about havingjobs, which the movie actually
(46:15):
rewards them for.
But you and I sort of discussingthe fact that by doing that,
they're making decisions forKermit, which could have been
made sort of together, that theaction of the movie could have
been exactly the same if Kermithad been in on the conversation
about going to find jobs.
Just there would have been lesssuffering on everyone's part,
(46:35):
which the movie does not makethat comment.
You and I are making thatcomment.
We also talked about sort ofbeing a good friend and what
does that look like and the factthat there's a lot of lots of
examples of that that they kindof get wrong, maybe, but the
film does give us Jenny, thehuman, the primary human actor,
(46:58):
to like be a voice of reason andremind us that like just because
things don't look the way youwant them to doesn't mean that
your friends don't care aboutyou.
So thank you, Jenny.
We spent some time unpacking thescene where Joan Rivers and Miss
Piggy put makeup on each otherand the subversion of that, that
they're like having fun andbeing ridiculous with this
beautifying technology that theyhave been hired to sell, and how
(47:23):
fun and funny and delightfulthat was for you as a child, in
part probably because JoanRivers was a little drunk, and
so was Frank Oz.
Within the universe of themovie, they get punished for it,
which also jibes because itsubverts the status quo, which
is part of what makes it sodelightful.
What did I forget?
(47:44):
Just the nature of making it asan artist and what that means.
Where we landed, where welanded.
And the fact that this moviedoes seem to support the idea
that we make the art we need asartists.
And that's where the luck comesin.
Not in sort of making the artfor consumption, but because we
(48:06):
love it.
And the more the merrier, whichmakes you cry every time.
So what we did not get to wasthe immigrant story.
So let's talk about that in theshit we forgot to say, which
listeners, if you are not yet apatron, you can head over to our
Patreon.
It's very easy to join and notvery expensive, and then you can
hear the bonus content.
And next week, I'm gonna bringyou my deep thoughts about the
(48:29):
film Amelie, which I actuallyliked in part because it
reminded me of your name.
Awesome.
Looking forward to it.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
(48:51):
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
(49:13):
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
You don't make art to make it.
You make art because it fulfillsyou.
Whether or not you make it onBroadway or you get the book
deal, or you know, people seeyour work.
You make the art.
SPEAKER_04 (00:15):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_03 (00:35):
I'm Emily Guy Bergen, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1984 film Muppets TakeManhattan with my sister, Tracy
Guy Decker.
And with you, let's dive in.
(00:55):
So, Tracy, I know you've seenthis movie.
Um, It's Muppets.
But tell me, what's in your headabout Muppets Take Manhattan?
SPEAKER_04 (01:03):
The early movies all kind of run together in my head,
but this is the one where theylike go to New York and they're
staying in lockers, right?
The lockers is mostly likelaughing.
Like that's the thing thatreally comes to mind.
For some reason, when I thinkabout this movie, because like
the some of the other thingslike I don't think are actually
(01:23):
from this movie.
Like, this is not where they'redriving across the country and
they see Big Bird going theother way.
Yeah, no, that's a differentmovie.
Yeah.
And it's not the one with thebicycles, like that's the
original Muppet movie.
And they all blend together.
There's advertising, though.
There's advertising, right?
Soap gets you clean.
Is that from this one?
(01:44):
Yes, that's from this one.
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't actually clearly havespecific plot moments in my head
from this movie.
I just have my beloved friendswho are in it because their
name's in the title.
But remind me, like, what?
Well, actually, I know what's tosay because everything Muppets
(02:05):
is like kind of the foundationof our childhood.
But like, talk to me about whythis was the one that you wanted
to put on the list now, whyMuppets Take Manhattan and not
the Great Muppet Caper or theMuppet movie or one of the
others.
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
So this was my favorite Muppet movie growing
up.
And I think it's a familiaritything.
I just, I saw it over and overagain as a kid.
And I'm not sure why.
The Muppets staying in thelockers at the like the bus
station, like they, which alwaysreminded me of the pod hotels
that in Japan that we just oh,in Japan.
(02:38):
Oh, like the one we just stayedin when we were in New York.
Yeah.
I just, I was that was sodelightful.
When they're running out ofmoney, they're like, well, we
could move to cheaper lockers.
Right.
Right.
So that was something that Ireally liked.
I also I think there wassomething that really appealed
to me about the fact that whatthey are doing in Manhattan is
(03:01):
trying to put their college showon Broadway.
And that appealed to me, that itwas this like kind of underdog
dream of the arts, always reallyappealed to me.
I liked that.
And then I also really lovedthat at the end, because Kermit
throughout the film is sayingthere's something missing.
(03:23):
Like it's a great show, but Iknow there's something missing.
And at one point, all of theMuppets leave Manhattan when
they're running out of money andleave Kermit there to keep
trying to find a way to get theshow on Broadway, claiming they
have job offers elsewhere.
And they meet other Muppets whocome with them back to Manhattan
(03:44):
when they, when they get anoffer to put the show on.
And they ask, hey, can ourfriends watch from backstage?
And he says, No, they cannotwatch from backstage.
That's what's been missing.
They need to be in the show.
And like, for some reason, thatmade my little baby heart just
swell.
And we watched this with mywhole family, and like I was
(04:05):
getting a little teary-eyed.
Even though as a kid, becauselike they're in the show and
they've got costumes.
It's five minutes before Curtinrises on opening night when he
decides this.
They've all got costumes, theyknow they're lines.
And like, even as a tiny kid, Iwas just like, that's not how
any of this works.
(04:25):
But that inclusivity wassomething that just made me
really, really happy.
And then there were aspects ofMiss Piggy's story that I really
appreciated, but are kind of alittle don't hold up, huh?
So often they don't hold up.
(04:46):
She's a badass in some ways inthis movie, but she shouldn't
have to be.
That's what's a little ugly.
That's what's it why it'simportant to me.
So let me give you a couple ofpostcards from the destination.
As I said, like it it appealedto me, I think, as a kid, being
about trying to make it as anartist.
(05:09):
That's something I'm gonna wantto talk about.
There's also what it means to bea good friend.
And that's not an unusual thingto see in a Muppet movie or um
or any movie, but especially theMuppets.
Yeah.
And there's like a lot ofdifferent answers to that.
(05:30):
What I wasn't expecting wasthere's a lot about the cost of
being female in this film that Ithink that was not intended.
That was the Frank Oz was thesole director.
Jim Henson needed some time off,or not time off, but he had
enough on his plate.
So Frank Oz was a sole director,although Henson directed one
(05:53):
specific scene.
But Oz was the director, and thestory and script were by male
writers.
So this was just what wasexpected.
And a reflection of the culture.
Exactly.
And there's some deeply embeddedcasual misogyny, some of which
bothered me even as a child.
(06:13):
Others I didn't notice untilwatching it again recently.
There is a bit of an immigrantstory in there that I think is
really interesting andimportant, and I want to talk
about that as well.
And then some romance in therethat I think definitely appealed
to me as a kid.
I kind of want to unpack alittle bit as we talk.
(06:34):
So let me give you kind of asynopsis of the plot, such as it
is.
So we open on Kermit and thegang, which includes Piggy,
Gonzo, let's see, Rolf, Fozzie,Dr.
Teeth, and the Electric Mayhem,let's see, Scooter.
(06:58):
I think that's about the extentof it, who are graduating from
college and they have put ontheir senior play, which is
called Manhattan Melodies, thatto thunderous applause.
And the someone in the audiencehas says, You should take this
to Broadway.
(07:18):
And Scooter says, We should takethis to Broadway.
And Kermit says, I don't know.
I think the script's missingsomething.
And they're all like, Well, butif we take it to Broadway, then
we don't have to, you know,leave each other after
graduation.
We can continue to see eachother.
So they're like, All right,let's do it.
(07:40):
So they go to New York.
And as you remember, they set upcamp in the lockers, which is
just such a delightful visualgag.
The lockers, I think, at GrandCentral Station.
And they start going todifferent producers.
And the first producer theymeet, played by Dabney Coleman,
(08:03):
says immediately, like they playlike three chords basically,
like, I love it.
Start rehearsals tomorrow.
And he's like, but she's gonnaneed$300 from each of you.
And it becomes apparent that heis actually a uh just a con man,
and he gets arrested in front ofthem.
We then have a long montage ofthe Muppets trying and failing
(08:28):
to get anyone interested intheir show.
As the months pass, it is getsto be, I believe, September, and
they are talking about howlittle money they have left and
how they're hungry.
And so they stop in at a diner.
I believe it's called Pete'sDiner.
Wait staff are rats.
This is the first time.
(08:50):
Um Is that the first time wemeet Rizzo?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
It's the introduction of Rizzothe Rat, who is based on there's
a Dustin Hoffman character in amovie, I don't remember what
movie, whose name was RazzoRizzo, Rizzo Razzo, something
like that.
And so Kermit goes to talk tothe owner, who is like kind of
(09:14):
this gruff older man with amustache who speaks with a thick
accent, and who is very kind butgruff.
His daughter comes in and, youknow, says, Sorry, she's late.
Her name is Jenny.
She is studying to become afashion designer.
She's just taken a test for herclass that she's taking for
(09:34):
that.
And she says, like, I'll takecare of things for you so you
and your friends can all getsoup.
The rest of the gang has beenasking Kermit, what should we do
now?
And he kind of like loses histemper at them, like, I don't
know.
I don't know what to do.
And so while he's talking toJenny, they decide, like, we're
putting too much pressure onKermit.
We need to help him by relievingthat pressure.
(09:56):
And so they all decide to leaveManhattan, tell him they've
gotten jobs elsewhere so thatit's not so much pressure on
him.
And so they all scatter to thewinds, saying that they have
jobs in various places whileKermit stays.
(10:17):
He convinces Jenny and Pete togive him a job at the diner
while he continues to try tofind someone who will put on the
show.
So the next part of the movie ishe'll get letters from the gang
talking about what they'redoing, and we see like funny
scenes of what they're up to.
(10:38):
So Scooter is working at a movietheater where he meets some
other Muppets.
We see Gonzo doing like stuntsin, I think, in Michigan, where
we meet some other Muppets.
We see, let's see, Fozzie hasmet up with some other bears and
he's trying to hibernate and hecan't sleep.
SPEAKER_04 (11:00):
I was muted, but I was laughing out loud.
That cracks me off.
SPEAKER_03 (11:08):
He keeps getting rejections from other producers.
And we also see that Miss Piggy,though she claims that she left,
has actually stayed in Manhattanand is spying on Kermit and uh
is jealous of his relationshipwith Jenny because they are
(11:28):
friends and like she hugs himsometimes and things like that.
We do see her, she got a job atthe makeup counter at a
department store, and there'sthis great scene with her and
Joan Rivers putting makeup oneach other and like giggling,
and it's kind of a delightful,funny scene.
And then they both get fired.
We also see that Kermit hasvarious schemes to try to get
(11:53):
people to get interest inManhattan melodies.
So he goes to the famous NewYork restaurant where there's
the caricatures of all thefamous people on the walls, and
he has Jenny draw a picture ofhim, put it up on the wall.
So it looks like he's one of thefamous people.
And he takes down a picture ofLiza Minelli to put himself up
(12:13):
and has Rizzo and his ratfriends like hide under the
tables to whisper aboutManhattan melodies.
But then Liza Minelli happens tocome in and asks the owner,
like, did I do something wrong?
And then the rats are smellingthe food, going, like, that
smells delicious.
And everyone freaks out becausethey come out from under the
(12:34):
tables and are like, rats, rats.
And so Kermit gets thrown out.
So, you know, his schemes justdon't work.
There is a point where Jenny andKermit are in the park, and
Kermit is upset because nothingseems to be working, and she's
like, Let's go for a jog.
Exercise always helps.
And so they're jogging.
Piggy is spying on them, and sheis jogging behind them and
(12:56):
having trouble keeping up.
And then she stops to kind ofcatch her breath and a man
snatches her purse and she getsreally mad.
And so Gregory Hines is puttingon some roller skates and she
says, Excuse me, I need toborrow your roller skates.
She skates after the pursesnatcher in this amazing scene,
(13:17):
like total badass, and then likegrabs him.
The purse snatcher, she it's histiny little purse, and he's
pulling all this stuff.
It's like a Mary Poppins bag.
Like, and my favorite is hepulls a hacksaw out of this tiny
purse.
Because of course the pig has ahacksaw.
(13:38):
And when the police come, theythe the purse snatcher says,
This pig stole my purse.
And the police are like, Yeah,right.
And all the commotion means thatKermit and Jenny see what
happened.
SPEAKER_04 (13:54):
Oh, so Piggy has found out that she's still in
Manhattan.
SPEAKER_03 (13:58):
Kermit and Piggy are arguing.
And Gregory Hines comes runningup saying, like, let me get my
skates back.
I love the idea that GregoryHines and Goofy Piggy were the
same size roller skates.
Yeah, okay.
And this is a hilarious scenewhere Gregory Hines like starts
(14:19):
getting involved in theirargument.
So like he's like, Can I get myskates back?
And then he's like, You twoargue.
I'll just, I'll just untie thelaces while you're talking.
Then he starts, he's just like,giving huggies to Jenny.
Huggies.
Uh-huh.
(14:39):
And then Fonnie's like, you knowwhat?
Keep the skates and jogs off.
And so they end up reconcilingand they take a carriage ride
and they talk about how theywant to be together.
There has been some talk abouthow Kermit has said like they'll
get married once once they haveenough money.
(15:00):
And so once the show issuccessful, and Piggy says
something about, I wish I'dknown you when we were kids.
And so we see like a dreamsequence of like them as that's
what babies came from.
Oh my God.
So Kermit makes Piggy come andand like reconcile with Jenny
and become friends.
(15:21):
And when they get back to thediner, there is a letter from a
big name producer who says hewants to put on Manhattan
melodies.
When Kermit gets there, theproducer is much younger than he
was expecting.
Turns out it's his son.
And the son, who is like in hisvery early 20s, has apparently
(15:44):
his father said he would producea play that he chose.
And, you know, if he could makeit a success, then his the dad
will like allow him to take onmore responsibility in the
production office.
And so the son really liked theidea of Manhattan melodies.
Kermit calls the diner from apayphone and be like to tell
them the great news.
(16:04):
It's so exciting.
And as he he hangs up, he says,I'm going to be there in 20
minutes.
And he walks into the out intothe street and he's hit by a car
and he gets amnesia, which thiswas my first introduction to the
amnesia trope.
I had never seen it before, thismovie.
Of course, Piggy and Jenny arevery worried because, you know,
(16:28):
like hours have passed and hehasn't come back.
The son, and I don't rememberthe producer's name, but he
comes in.
They're like, okay, well, weneed to get all the friends back
to put this show on.
And we've only got a few months.
The son comes in, he's like,actually two weeks, because my
dad said, like, since we'redoing this, we got two weeks.
And we're like, what?
(16:50):
So they get all the Muppets backand they bring their friends
from their various places.
Meanwhile, we see Kermit in thehospital, like he's fine, but
can't remember who he is.
The doctor says, Well, sinceyou're found with no clothes, we
looked up the, you know, localnudist colonies.
And I think that your name is Idon't know, it's something
(17:12):
ridiculous.
SPEAKER_04 (17:14):
Because they looked up a nudist colony?
And it's the name of somebodywho's missing from a nudist
colony.
unknown (17:19):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (17:20):
Who was a frog?
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
No, they don't make any reference to the fact that
he's a frog.
unknown (17:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
So they say, here's what we can do for you.
We can give you a clean set ofclothes.
Why don't you go out, pick a newname, get a job, start your life
over.
So we see Kermit go to a anoffice building where there's
like a temp agency, and he'she's passing by a an office that
(17:54):
has three other frogs in suits.
And he asks them, Do you knowwhere the staffing agency is?
They're like, Oh, it's down thehall.
They ask him, like, could youhelp us?
And that's what you rememberwhere they they have at agency.
SPEAKER_04 (18:08):
It was Waffle.
SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
And so he helps them with, I don't remember what
their product.
It was like soap.
Well, it was a soap.
That's all I remember.
Yeah, it was soap.
And I don't remember what theirslogan was.
It was something ridiculous.
And he's like, What about itgets you clean?
And they're like, Oh.
And so they ask him his name,and there's a sign for another,
like, I think for gas, and it'slike Phil Up.
(18:32):
And so he's just like, it'sPhil.
Phil Up.
And they're like, Oh, well, I'mGil, and this is Bill and Jill.
So he becomes the an ad agencyfrog named Phil.
So Jenny is making costumes forManhattan Melodies.
All the Muppets have come back.
In their off time, they wanderaround Manhattan calling for
(18:55):
Kermit and don't find him.
They like kind of cross pathswith the ad agency frogs, but of
course, Kermit doesn't recognizethem and like they don't see
him.
They just, and so they'reopening night, and so it's early
in the day.
The gang and Jenny and theproducer are all at the diner,
(19:17):
like really depressed, going,like, should we just cancel?
What do we do?
The ad agency frogs are walkingby saying, like, why don't we
try a new place for lunch?
And they come in and they sitdown at the booth right next to
where everyone's sitting, alldepressed.
And there are some waterglasses, and Kermit starts
(19:38):
playing the water glasses, doingthe melody of the final song in
the show.
And they look over, and at firstthey only see the other three
frogs.
And then someone walks over andsees, like, no, it's Kermit.
And they grab him.
They take him to the theater,and he doesn't remember.
(19:59):
They spend hours trying toconvince him.
And so finally, Miss Piggy'slike, Don't you remember you
love me and I love you, andwe're gonna get married?
And he starts laughing and verycruel.
He scoffs very cruelly.
And so she gets angry and likekarate chops him.
And so he like And that jogs hismemory.
(20:20):
Jogs his memory.
He like he flies backwards andupside down.
And then he goes, Like, what doyou mean it's tonight?
And like realizes what it is,what's happening, and comes back
to himself.
They're like, Okay, great.
We the show must go on and gethim into his costume.
And that's when I think Fozziesays, like, hey, all our friends
came with us from our travels.
(20:42):
Can they watch backstage?
He says, No, they have to be init.
And then we see the stage play,which has we haven't really seen
this part of it.
So there's a song aboutsomebody's getting married,
which is Kermit and Piggy.
And we see the church, which is,you know, just full of Muppets.
(21:02):
And then Kermit and Piggy get tothe altar, and there's a human
there, and Kermit like kind ofleans over to Piggy, he's like,
I thought Gonzo was gonna playthe pastor.
And she goes, as in she got areal wedding will be real, not
so.
Yeah.
(21:23):
And so the film ends with thewedding song, and then they kind
of end with them in a like moonthat kind of rises up.
Yeah, I kind of remember that.
Yeah, it's very broad way.
Uh-huh.
And then that's the end of thefilm.
So where do you want to start?
(21:45):
I want to start about the costof being female because it it's
what really struck me this time.
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (21:51):
It's interesting that that happens when there are
so few female Muppets.
Like, is it about Jenny or is itabout Piggy or both?
SPEAKER_03 (21:57):
It's just throughout.
So, like early on.
When they're in their collegeauditorium, Kermit is saying,
like, thank you, like we havemade it at this point.
And then animal is running aftera co-ed, going, Wall man, whoa
man.
And he's like, Some of us withpsychological help on a daily
basis or something like that.
I was just like, oh, yeah,animal does not age well.
(22:21):
Yeah.
They've made changes to animalthat make sense for what the
intention was.
But yeah, a whole auditoriumlaughs with animal doing that.
But then one of the times whenPiggy is spying, she's wearing a
(22:41):
trench coat and she is standingin front of where there's some
construction.
And a construction worker startsnoticing her and starts saying,
like, hey, pretty, and likestarts like kind of catcalling
her.
And she's just ignoring him.
And then two other constructionworkers start catcalling her.
(23:02):
And it's a children's movie.
So they're not saying anythingvulgar.
But they are very much like it'sand it's played as if, yeah,
this is just what happens.
And when I think this is thefirst time Jenny hugs Kermit.
And so when she sees that, shegets so angry that she grabs
(23:24):
like an iron bar and bend a bar.
I think she bends it and thenshe starts hitting a trash can
with it.
Which scares the crap out of theconstruction workers who like
run away from her.
And that's kind of what I meanabout she's a badass, but she
shouldn't have to be able to be.
SPEAKER_02 (23:40):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03 (23:41):
It's like I don't remember really liking the fact
they stopped bothering her.
SPEAKER_04 (23:46):
Uh-huh.
And that's not why she did it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
She was just having a reaction to something not
related to them.
Yeah.
And that ew.
Ew.
That was also like it was justunremarkable and unremarked upon
in the film.
SPEAKER_03 (24:05):
Like this is just this is what happens.
And like part of the joke wasthe fact that they were hitting
on a pig.
Right.
So then the scene that Imentioned with Joan Rivers,
which is very funny.
I really appreciate that scene.
So that comes right after theconstruction worker scene.
(24:28):
She comes in, she's late.
She had been on her lunch break.
Piggy.
She piggy.
She piggy.
Yeah.
She'd been on her lunch break,and her her boss is like, you
know, you're late back fromlunch on your first day of work.
And she's like, I'm so sorry, itwill never happen again.
And she comes back in and JoanRivers does her line, like, can
(24:48):
we talk?
Miss Piggy, it's basically like,you know, oh man.
Miss Piggy says, like, am Ipretty?
Because she's feeling insecurebecause of Jenny.
SPEAKER_02 (24:59):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (25:01):
Joan Rivers says, like, look at you.
Of course you're pretty.
You're very pretty.
There's that similar kind oflike cost of being female
tension where it's just like,why are we talking about this?
This doesn't have anything to dowith your worth or your and but
it's just a given.
And then Piggy says, Well, am Igorgeous?
(25:22):
And Joan Rivers goes like, likeit kind of.
And then they she starts likesaying, like, you know, I I
think you're a little pale.
You just need a little rouge.
And they start putting makeup oneach other and like giggling and
having fun.
And that that ends up being likejust very affirming and fun.
And like they're just, it'shilarious.
(25:43):
It's an it's this hilariousmoment where it's like it almost
feels like pushing back againstthose standards.
I don't know.
I read that the scene wasn'treally working.
And so Frank Oz went out and gotfour gin and tonics, two each
for him and Joan Rivers.
And they drank them and then didthe scene because he does the
(26:04):
voice for Piggy.
And then he had no idea whatthey got when they filmed it
because of the gin and tonics.
He's like, I hope that wentwell.
And so that's part of what wasgoing on with the buttons, and
then as Joan Rivers and Piggyare like looking at each other
and going and like justguffawing at each other.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_04 (26:22):
There's just something very subversive about
it, about like there's somethingreally interesting about that,
given the idiom about lipstickon a pig.
SPEAKER_03 (26:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:33):
And so to have Piggy be, you know, at this makeup
counter and like doing thismakeup with Joan Rivers.
There's something like reallyinteresting in that, in terms of
like the English idiom aboutlike how the idiom means that
something's futile.
There's no point.
It's like putting lipstick on apig and like here they are, and
(26:54):
yet they're having a great time.
And it's really funny.
And then you add to that thefact that this is a puppet.
So I mean, you put blush on thefelt of a puppet.
Like, what do they need?
A new puppet?
How do you wash that off?
Like, so like there's multiplelayers for the viewer, I think,
in terms of like the actual,like the visual metaphor of
(27:16):
putting lipstick on a pig, theactual practical effects of
putting makeup on a puppet, on afelt puppet.
SPEAKER_03 (27:24):
And also Piggy's putting makeup on Joan Rivers.
SPEAKER_04 (27:28):
Yeah.
Well, and recognizing like asthe viewer that like those eyes
that are Miss Piggy's eyes arenot actually eyes, right?
They're just fabric.
So like Oz is like below likedoing like that's also sort of
interesting.
And I think the sort of toplevel of these two women sort of
(27:49):
having fun with this expectationof beauty, which they have been
hired to sell and doing it inlike ridiculous and silly and
ways to amuse each other andthemselves.
I think that's the subversionthat you're seeing.
SPEAKER_03 (28:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember always really likingthat scene.
Always, and part of it is, andit it I think it's the
ginatonics, is that the laughterfeels genuine.
SPEAKER_04 (28:15):
Yeah.
Um.
I mean, and Joan Rivers ischarming.
I think like she's brassy andand charming.
There's a reason she was aspopular a comedian as she has
been in her career.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (28:29):
But then the fact that they the boss comes over
and fires them both, that'sanother cost of being female.
SPEAKER_04 (28:36):
It's also the fact that they get punished for the
subversion that you found socharming.
SPEAKER_03 (28:40):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
And then the purse snatchingscene is another.
Now part of this is like NewYork in the 80s had the
reputation of like that's what'sgonna happen.
And like part of the reason whyI loved Miss Piggy was she's
like, I am not taking that lyingdown.
You know, she's a badass.
(29:01):
And also the kind of subversionof she's having trouble keeping
up jogging behind Jenny andKermit when she's like feeling
emotional anguish and jealousy,but like, oh no, you got my
purse.
I can't I'm gonna get uh theseroll fine states and deeper
reserves of strength andstamina.
Like, I want my hacksaw back.
(29:24):
But there is that like asouzing, a sense of like women
are a little bit of the butt ofthe joke because it's like women
can't actually do that.
Women can't actually fight backlike that.
There's kind of a it's layered.
SPEAKER_04 (29:39):
It's layered in the fact that like Piggy is the only
like main character who's femaleand they made her a pig, you
know, and they made like thethere are these like extreme and
like it's a Muppet, it's acharacter.
Of course, that like there arethe extreme sort of character
traits.
That's true for all of theMuppets, but she's the only
(29:59):
female one.
I mean, I know Janice is well inthis movie, but Janice is never
like a prime mover among theMuppets.
She's just kind of like one ofthe band.
SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
Speaking of Janice, when everybody comes back,
there's a point whereeverybody's talking and then it
gets quiet, and then you hearwhat Janice is saying.
And I said to him, I don't carewhat the conditions are, I will
never do that.
Something along those lines.
But it's a line that makes itclear that she's being
sexualized.
Mm-hmm.
With boundaries.
I mean, but still, cost of beingfemale.
(30:34):
Yeah.
All the female Muppets, becausethere's a female rat.
So Rizzo's the only rat workingat Pete's originally, but then
he brings in some rat friends.
There's only one girl, Yolanda,and Rizzo is constantly hitting
on her.
And she keeps hitting him,literally, like, but cost of
being female.
And then there's the casualmisogyny of women be obsessed
(30:59):
with getting married.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:02):
And the fact that Piggy tricked Kermit into an
actual marriage.
SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:08):
Bothered the crap out of me as a kid.
SPEAKER_04 (31:11):
Mm-hmm.
That whole like narrative arcabout bitches be crazy.
Like that that's all that womenwant.
Like it was really like forceddown our throats that that's the
thing.
I've been thinking about it alot lately.
Like that sort of, they call itthe relationship escalator
model, where like there's alwayslike some extra level of
(31:31):
commitment that you're supposedto be going toward.
And like it taught us all wewere always failing.
Why are you single?
Why aren't you more serious?
When are you getting married?
When are you having kids?
When are you like there's likethis constant pressure for the
next thing, the next thing, thenext thing until you like win?
I'm putting quotes around that.
(31:52):
And then you're still not happy.
So obviously you're a failure.
You were failing, and then yousucceed, and you're a failure
because you're not happy becausethey told us that all of this
was going to make us happy.
Sorry, this is a total aside.
But like, I think that like thiskind of programming where like
this is all Piggy wants is toget married.
(32:13):
And like there's some sense inwhich Kermit doesn't actually
want to, because when he hasamnesia and doesn't remember who
she is, he's cruel about thepossibility of them being
together.
And then she has to deceive himinto getting that next step on
the escalator.
Like this is what we were taughtwas normal.
Well, and it was written by men.
(32:35):
I yeah, I don't I'm realizingnow that like that well into
which Frank Oz and the otherwriters were dipping, because
they didn't invent it.
Oh no.
But that well that said thatlike we were all like
auditioning and like schemingand like needing to engage in
(32:59):
machinations to like catch a manand trap him.
I've said this in other placesrecently, but it's sort of like
Tom Sawyer's fence.
They made us think we wanted it,but it's actually other people's
work.
This is like a realization I'vehad that you've heard me say,
but like our listeners maybehaven't that like, and I think
(33:19):
this kind of a trope that Piggyand Kermit fall into is part of
how Tom Sawyer made us think wewanted to be whitewashing the
damn fence.
SPEAKER_03 (33:30):
Yeah.
It's part of what I also like,because I I always loved Piggy's
badassery, but it bothered methat she was spying on Kermit.
It bothered me that she lied.
That actually like iscounterindicated.
SPEAKER_04 (33:44):
If you're a badass, you're not insecure like that.
Not that you can't haveinsecurities, but like her
confidence and that kind oflevel of insecurity and jealousy
just don't make sense together.
SPEAKER_03 (33:56):
Yeah.
I do want to talk about how tobe a good friend.
That kind of leans into thatsomewhat.
The Muppets scatter becausethey're all asking Kermit, what
do we do?
And he kind of snaps at thembecause he's overwhelmed, which
is understandable.
They're in a really toughposition and he's the leader and
they keep asking him and he's hedoesn't know what to do.
And so they together are like,wow, we don't want to make this
(34:20):
harder for Kermit.
We're in a tough place.
Let's make it easier for him.
And then he's really sad thatall his friends have left.
It's interesting because I'mthinking about like them leaving
an act of incredible friendshipbecause they don't want to leave
either.
But it relieves this incrediblepressure on him where he's
(34:41):
feeling responsible for them,but it also makes all of them
sadder.
SPEAKER_04 (34:46):
It feels misplaced to me because it is done with in
dis with deception.
They decide what's best for himand then execute without ever
talking to him about it.
SPEAKER_03 (34:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's part of what's like mykids were like, I this wasn't
our favorite Meppet movie.
I was like, that's okay.
Like this, I loved it and Iwatched it over and over again
as a kid.
And it's okay if you didn't likeit.
There's moments that I justadore in this movie, but and
there are things that make metear up every time.
Like there's a song montage whenthey all leave called saying
(35:21):
goodbye that makes me tear up.
I wish that the movie had talkedabout it.
But there's supposed to be, youknow, early 20s-something, you
know, right out of college,where like you don't necessarily
know that you should have thisconversation together before
making decisions unilaterallyand with deception.
(35:43):
Like you're trying to do rightby someone you love.
And like, you don't know, you'restill new at this.
You're emotional flailingpuppies of chaos at that point.
In some ways, like the end whereKermit's like, everybody on
stage, kind of, I don't know.
There's a reason why that alwaysmakes my heart grow three sizes.
It makes it clear that likeinclusion is a way of mitigating
(36:08):
that kind of well-meaning harm.
Where instead of saying, like,okay, we're gonna each go into
our own little silo to try toprotect each other, it's saying,
like, no, bring everybodytogether.
We're all in this together.
The fact that this film has lotsof different examples of
friendship and they get itwrong, but they're really
(36:33):
trying.
You know, it's a 40-year-oldmovie.
And I don't like, I don't think,you know, I don't think it did a
terrible job of it.
Like the cost of being femaleand the casual misogyny, yes.
But it would be nice if it hadtaken some time for Kermit to be
like, you should have told me.
(36:54):
We do have Jenny as the voice ofreason multiple times saying,
like, you know, I'm sure yourfriends are thinking about you
too, and they really miss you.
Like she's consistently beingthe voice of reason and saying,
like, how much your friends loveyou and how much all of this
means to everyone.
So we see the like the human,main human character kind of
(37:17):
giving us the lesson that justbecause things don't look like
you want them to, doesn't meanthat you know, your friends
don't care or things like that.
Yeah, yeah.
But the fact that all ofKermit's attempts at deception
to get his show on Broadwaydon't work, I think also
(37:40):
underlines the idea that it'sbetter to be forthright, except
that then Piggy gets married.
SPEAKER_04 (37:49):
It's interesting to think about sort of deception in
this movie.
Because there's a lot of it,right?
Like there's the from the verybeginning, the con man producer
who wants 300 bucks from each ofthem.
It's such an interesting when Istart thinking about those
layers that we talked about withJoan Rivers and Piggy, start
thinking about that, likedeception.
When we're talking aboutpuppets, for which they're not
(38:15):
people, right?
Pretense is the game.
It's a really interesting tolike add those layers of
deception and like when isdeception okay?
And like, like obviously theproducer who was trying to
deceive the Muppets out ofmoney, that's not okay.
But when the f all of theMuppets were like, we need to
(38:36):
protect Kermit, so we're gonnalie to him, like we forgive
them, even though like I wondertoo, like how much the movie
makers wanted us to actuallysort of feel the way that you
and I feel.
Like, well, that's not cool.
Like you made a decision forhim, and how much we were meant
to actually be like, oh yeah,they needed to relieve some
(38:58):
pressure on him.
SPEAKER_03 (39:00):
You know, like well, and it I mean, part of what I
loved about the movie when I wasa kid is seeing what they were
all doing when they werescattered.
Like I and I loved they broughtback new Muppet friends.
SPEAKER_02 (39:12):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04 (39:13):
So they actually get rewarded for the deception in
the universe of the movie.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whereas if they'd done the exactsame thing but talked to Kermit
about it, like the outcome wouldhave been the same, but there
would have been left suffering.
SPEAKER_03 (39:27):
Yeah.
I don't know.
So one thing I do, because Imentioned it, the nature of
making it as an artist, becausewe're running a little short on
time.
I started that at the top ofthis.
There are a lot of stories outthere, and it's because the
people who make stories arepeople who are artists trying to
make it.
Right.
But there are a lot of storiesabout making it as an artist.
(39:47):
Right.
And the dispiriting nature oftrying to make it as an artist.
Watching this as an adult wasinteresting.
I've mentioned before, I writefiction.
I have often on tried queryingagents for novels.
(40:07):
I mean, probably over 20 yearsnow.
And it is soul crushing.
SPEAKER_04 (40:14):
Yeah.
I have gotten discouraged afterlike three or four queries, and
they say it takes like 70.
SPEAKER_03 (40:19):
Seeing this, like there is this sense of, and this
often happens in stories aboutmaking it as an artist.
There's a like a Deus Ex Machinakind of thing.
Now, part of it is because itcomes down to luck often.
Yep.
And that's because luck comes tothose who persevere.
(40:40):
That's not to say that like luckplays a role in every single
success story.
I truly believe that.
But then also like you're notgoing to get lucky if you don't
persevere.
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (40:50):
You need to put yourself in the circumstances
where luck can find you.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (40:55):
But the naivete of the Muppets, where they're like,
oh, we'll be on Broadway by theend of the summer, which I just
took in.
It just went over my head as akid, like the how naive they
were.
And I don't know how much themovie really comments on it.
Like it just lets that be.
SPEAKER_04 (41:14):
I mean, except that their naivete is rewarded by a
con man.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
So immediately.
SPEAKER_03 (41:22):
And I think that also plays into what I love
about the this is what wasmissing.
We need all the bears andchickens and things to join us.
Because what has like the veryhard one realization, it's
slippery.
It's a slippery realization.
(41:42):
I have to like claw to hold onto it, is that you don't make
art to make it.
You make art because it fulfillsyou.
And so whether or not you makeit on Broadway or you get the
book deal, or you know, peoplesee your work, you make the art.
And so that's part of the weneed all the bears and chickens
(42:06):
and things to join us becausethat's what the art is part of
like why little baby Emily isjust like, yay, and gets all
teary-eyed at the end.
Because that's what it is tomake it as an artist, whether or
not you ever see Broadway.
You know, I don't know if anyoneelse would see it that way, if
that's just a uniquely iberkintake from this.
(42:29):
I say that, but I would love touh have the universe challenge
me on that by giving me a chanceto uh see how it feels to be a
New York Times bestseller.
SPEAKER_04 (42:43):
I don't think what you said was like mutually
exclusive.
I mean, like I actually thinkwhat you said is like sort of
what leads to that.
If you write the book to try andmake it to the New York Times,
it's gonna be a shit book.
Yeah.
Because you're not writing itfor you.
So it's it's disingenuous.
SPEAKER_03 (42:58):
Yeah.
And that I think gets to, eventhough Jim Henson was relatively
lightly involved in this.
He was involved in this, butnot, you know, not as directly
as he was in other Muppetproductions.
But I think that gets to part ofthe reason why we love the
Muppets is like, seriously, WTF,they're puppets.
(43:20):
You know, but they are amazing.
And like 70 years ago, if yousaid like one of the most
enduring properties of the 20thcentury will be puppet
marionette hybrids, and everyonewill know them.
They will be globally renowned.
One of them is a frog who's inlove with a pig with blonde hair
(43:43):
and purple gloves.
Like people would have beenlike, What are you on about?
That doesn't make any sense.
And it's because Jim Henson madethe art that spoke to him.
He didn't make it for us.
We just got lucky.
We got lucky.
Yeah.
And so, like That's what I feellike ultimately this movie is
(44:05):
about.
It's about making it by makingthe art that is meaningful to
you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's nice.
I like ending there.
SPEAKER_04 (44:16):
So let me reflect back to you what we talked
about.
We were all over the placetoday.
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
Very much so.
SPEAKER_04 (44:24):
You started this conversation about Muppets Take
Manhattan, talking about thecost of being female and the
casual misogyny of the film,which was obviously not
intention, not intentional, butwas just sort of the movie
makers and the Muppetsreflecting back the society in
which we live.
We spent like wrapped up withthat was the kind of lie we've
(44:47):
been spoon-fed about romance andabout relationships and
commitment that the Kermit Piggydynamic exacerbates, like feeds
into, perpetuates, like did notinvent.
So like I'm not mad at Frank Ozand Jim Henson for this.
Like they like just tapped intoa well that was very plentiful.
(45:10):
I spent some time off on my rantabout how it contributed to the
relationship escalator model,which sells us whitewashing Tom
Sawyer's fence, makes us thinkthat we want to do the
whitewashing, which is actuallysomebody else's work.
There was also like you talkedabout some of the like tension
(45:31):
in this pig puppet who there's alittle bit of like real women
couldn't fight back like this.
And that's part of what's funny.
Part of what's funny is thatthese guys are hitting on a pig,
but like this is what happens.
You know, we're just reflecting,like, what actually happens?
We actually spent a lot, uhseveral minutes talking about
(45:53):
all of that.
You also talked a bit aboutlike, well, we spent some time
talking about deception in thisfilm, whether, and like there's
the ill intent of deception oflike the con man, and then
there's the good intentioneddeception of the Muppets sort of
leaving and lying about havingjobs, which the movie actually
(46:15):
rewards them for.
But you and I sort of discussingthe fact that by doing that,
they're making decisions forKermit, which could have been
made sort of together, that theaction of the movie could have
been exactly the same if Kermithad been in on the conversation
about going to find jobs.
Just there would have been lesssuffering on everyone's part,
(46:35):
which the movie does not makethat comment.
You and I are making thatcomment.
We also talked about sort ofbeing a good friend and what
does that look like and the factthat there's a lot of lots of
examples of that that they kindof get wrong, maybe, but the
film does give us Jenny, thehuman, the primary human actor,
(46:58):
to like be a voice of reason andremind us that like just because
things don't look the way youwant them to doesn't mean that
your friends don't care aboutyou.
So thank you, Jenny.
We spent some time unpacking thescene where Joan Rivers and Miss
Piggy put makeup on each otherand the subversion of that, that
they're like having fun andbeing ridiculous with this
beautifying technology that theyhave been hired to sell, and how
(47:23):
fun and funny and delightfulthat was for you as a child, in
part probably because JoanRivers was a little drunk, and
so was Frank Oz.
Within the universe of themovie, they get punished for it,
which also jibes because itsubverts the status quo, which
is part of what makes it sodelightful.
What did I forget?
(47:44):
Just the nature of making it asan artist and what that means.
Where we landed, where welanded.
And the fact that this moviedoes seem to support the idea
that we make the art we need asartists.
And that's where the luck comesin.
Not in sort of making the artfor consumption, but because we
(48:06):
love it.
And the more the merrier, whichmakes you cry every time.
So what we did not get to wasthe immigrant story.
So let's talk about that in theshit we forgot to say, which
listeners, if you are not yet apatron, you can head over to our
Patreon.
It's very easy to join and notvery expensive, and then you can
hear the bonus content.
And next week, I'm gonna bringyou my deep thoughts about the
(48:29):
film Amelie, which I actuallyliked in part because it
reminded me of your name.
Awesome.
Looking forward to it.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
(48:51):
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
(49:13):
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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