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"But I've got style, I've got flair. How did I become the nanny?"
On this week's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, the Guy sisters welcome Emily's colleague Zina Kumok to share her analysis of the 1990s-era sitcom The Nanny, starring Fran Drescher. All three women appreciated the pop culture representation of a beautiful and funny working class Jewish woman on this TV show, since Drescher's portrayal of the titular nanny subverted many stereotypes about Jews, even as it leaned into others as part of the weekly fish-out-of-water comedy.
While not everything in the show has aged as well as Nanny Fine's amazing sense of style, comedic timing, and parenting psychology--specifically, there's some unpleasant 90s era fat shaming that we don't have much nostalgia for, and it's a little difficult to tell if there's an undercurrent of feminism in a show whose main character is obsessed with romance and marriage--but this piece of late 20th century pop culture is definitely worth a rewatch. Come for the one-liners and blue comedy that soared over your head the first time you watched it, stay for subversive pop culture that offers some trenchant cultural commentary on class, money, religion, and sex.
Good things come to those who wait, sir. Unless they wait too long and then they slip through their namby-pamby fingers. So don't delay in throwing on your headphones and listening in to this episode!
Tags
deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, nostalgia, 90s television, comedy, cultural commentary, fashion, feminism, fran drescher, millennial nostalgia, pop culture, psychology, romance, sitcom, storytelling, the nanny, todd oldham, women
Zina Kumok is available for one-on-one financial help at chdouglas.com
Find her on Instagram
And on LinkedIn
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus content, live zooms with Tracie & Emily, discounts on merch, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
We are on socials! Find us on Facebook at fb.com/dtasspodcast and on Insta at instagram.com/guygirlsmedia. You can also email us at guygirlsmedia at gmail dot com. We would love to hear from you!
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
It's funny, as a kid, I feel like what stood out
(00:03):
was she was basically like thefun nanny.
She was kind of like that funmom archetype of like, you know,
she would give the girls tips onlike makeup and clothes and all
that, but also, you know, beaware of like, hey, you're 18
and you're trying to date a25-year-old.
Like, no, that's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_03 (00:22):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:41):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I am sopleased to welcome my friend
Zina Kumak, who will be sharingher deep thoughts about the
1990s era sitcom The Nanny withmy sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and
(01:03):
with you.
Let's dive in.
So I am so glad to welcome ZinaKumak.
She is a dear friend of mine whois a licensed financial advisor
and nationally recognizedpersonal finance writer and
speaker.
That's how we know each other.
Her advice has been featured inMoney Magazine, Nerd Wallet, and
The Wall Street Journal.
(01:24):
She has written for publicationslike Business Insider, Bankrate,
and Invistopedia.
She also paid off$28,000 ofstudent loans in three years.
As a financial wellness speaker,she has spoken to organizations
and groups including CreativeMornings, the Broward County
Library, and ScholarCon.
She is available for one-on-onehelp at chdouglas.com, and all
of this will be available in ourshow notes.
(01:46):
So welcome, Zina.
Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm super excited.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
So when you mentioned that you wanted to
talk about the nanny, I waspretty psyched about it because
it was a show that was on when Iwas in high school.
And I remember a lot of myfriends would talk about it.
And it was one of those showsthat it was not appointment TV
for me.
But every time I saw it, Ilaughed and I really enjoyed it.
I always really liked FranDrasher.
(02:13):
There was a joke that stillsticks with me where she and I
think her mother were talkingabout, and I wish I could
remember the setup, but it wassomething about how it was a
funeral home that used to be aChinese food restaurant.
And they were worried that, youknow, once you went there, you
would grieve, and then after anhour you'd feel the need to
(02:36):
grieve again.
SPEAKER_01 (02:41):
It's so good.
It's just like rapport.
SPEAKER_02 (02:47):
Yeah.
And that has lived rent-free inmy head for 30 years.
So that has stuck with me.
And I remember talking to one ofmy close friends in high school
about the show.
And it was appointment TV forhim.
He was like, Oh, I never missit.
And so I just remember it beinga very important cultural
touchstone, even though it wasone I kind of drifted in and out
(03:09):
of.
So those were some things that Iremember about it.
I remember really loving FranDresher, like leaning into being
Jewish with both her voice andthe fact that she talked about
being Jewish.
There was a lot of Yiddish thatshe used.
That was a part of her characterthat was very important.
(03:31):
It was the cultural aspect ofher character.
And then also the clothing thatshe wore, like that were, I felt
like were stereotypically kindof Jewish.
You know, that this idea that,you know, leopard prints and
things like that were somethingthat Jewish women wore, but she
was glamorous and gorgeous.
SPEAKER_01 (03:49):
Like I watch it back.
She is so beautiful.
She is, yeah, glamorous andfabulous.
And her like, I want to rate herwardrobe so bad.
It's like a lot of design, it'slike elevated mob wife, I would
say.
SPEAKER_04 (04:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
That's an excellent way of describing it.
Yeah.
So those are those are kind ofthe things that that I have in
my head.
And then Mr.
Sheffield was like just a talldrink of water.
Like I can see why she had acrush on him all that time.
Yeah.
And then the enmity, and I donot remember their names, but
the blonde woman and the butler.
The enmity.
(04:26):
C.C.
and Niles.
Yes, Cece and Niles.
That I also remember reallyenjoying.
So those are the things that arein my head about it.
Tracy, what this would have beenout when you were in college, so
it kind of probably just passedyou by.
SPEAKER_03 (04:39):
No, not completely.
Like you, I sort of drifted inand out.
It was never, it wasn't one ofmy like touchstones, but I
definitely have seen multipleepisodes, like when it was new
and enjoyed them.
What's in my head about itactually is some of the same
things that you're talkingabout.
One of the things that likealways kind of struck me as
interesting was, and maybe we'llget into this, like, there's
(05:00):
definitely like class as a pieceof this, right?
Because of Mr.
Sheffield's wealth versus Franz.
But also, and also she's Jewish,but she's the lower income, like
the lower class in thehierarchy.
And so that always felt sort ofinteresting to me.
Cause I feel like there are someJewish stereotypes that come out
(05:22):
in the person of her character,or at least in my head, there
were.
I don't know if that's actuallyaccurate, but in my head there
are.
And yet the wealth inequality isnot where the Jewish person is
the super wealthy person.
And I, and in my head, that waslike, oh, cool.
That's a good thing.
Right.
Like that felt like a thing tolike counter some of the
(05:43):
dangerous stereotypes aboutJewishness.
So that's one of the thingsthat's in my head.
And like some of the things youguys have that you have already
talked about, just how gorgeousFran Dresher was at the time.
And and the juxtaposition of howphysically beautiful.
And then that I hope put on, butmaybe not, like that sort of
super nasal voice of hers thatlike is maybe takes some getting
(06:07):
used to, possibly.
I felt that or there was ajuxtaposition between the way
she spoke and the way shelooked, which was part of the
comedy, I think.
So those are some of the thingsthat are in my head.
I again, it was not a regularthing, but they're definitely,
it's not a it's not a tabularasa for me for the nanny.
So that's where I'm coming from.
But Zina, like when we talkedabout having you, we invited you
(06:29):
on the podcast, you were like,yeah, I want to talk about the
nanny.
So, like, why is the nanny soimportant to you?
What's special about it for you?
What's at stake?
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
You know, I would definitely say it wasn't like
when I was growing up, myparents were really nice about
letting me watch almost anythingI wanted.
And so I watched a lot of GoldenGirls reruns with my mom,
designing women reruns with mymom.
And again, also we kind of, Idon't remember us watching a lot
of the nanny as oh, we have tosee this.
(06:56):
It wasn't, I remember watchingER every Thursday as a child,
like I have to watch the showabout the Chicago hospital.
But also, again, I don't know.
Yeah, the nanny was kind oflike, oh, when I watched it, I
liked it, but I didn't seek itout or didn't like I wasn't
aware of like, oh, the rerunserror on these days or whatever.
And then sometime I think duringlockdown, I was going through
(07:18):
shows of like, I'm gonna watchall of Friends for the first
time.
I'm gonna watch all of like thisshow for the first time.
And I did that with a nanny, andI was like, holy crap, this is
so funny.
And it it was funny in a youknow, kind of a similar 90s
sitcom way, but being a Jewishthree Jewish women on this
podcast, again, the Jewishnessof it really stood out.
(07:41):
Like it is so in your face.
There's so much Yiddish, thereare so many references.
It feels the writer's room hadactual like Jewish people in
there, and like real New YorkJews, which I'm sure a lot of
like writers' rooms have, butit's not like a it's not a
footnote.
(08:02):
It is a huge part of the showand the character, and there's
something like cozy about it.
There's something that feelslike, oh, I could have, I mean,
if my grandmother were Englishspeaking, we could have sat down
and watched together and shewould have gotten a kick out of
it.
And maybe that's kind of thehominess of it for me.
SPEAKER_03 (08:21):
Very cool.
So talk to us about well, we'llget into the conversation, but
remind us and our listeners thesetup, like, or take us through,
well, remind us quickly of thecharacters because we've
referenced them briefly in oursort of what we remember, but
remind us of the characters andthen take us through, you know,
either it's an episode you wantto talk about or some of the
(08:41):
dynamics you want to talk about,but like kind of set the context
for us and our listeners,please.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Yeah.
So the setup, which I have tosay, if you've ever watched the
nanny, you know that the themesong, which is this like amazing
kind of like 50s, 60s callback,but it basically lays out the
whole pilot.
It's one of the few things themesongs I don't skip, even though
I've seen it now, like, I don'tknow, a hundred times.
But the basically she is workingfor her boyfriend in a bridal
(09:09):
shop in Queens, and he dumps herand fires her on the same day,
and dumps her for another womanwho later is played by Pamela
Anderson in an amazing likethree-episode arc or something.
So she has to go find anotherjob.
She's knocking on doors, tryingto sell makeup, and she ends up
at the Sheffield ref residence,which I believe is like Upper
(09:33):
East Side.
Side note, a friend of mineactually lived in that building,
which is just a bunch ofapartments, like regular
apartments.
It's still on the Upper EastSide, but very regular.
But it was amazing to see likethat facade.
So she knocks on the door andshe like instantly develops a
rapport with his three kids.
He's a widower and he's justlost his nanny because she
(09:55):
couldn't handle the kids.
So she instantly develops arapport with the three kids, and
he ends up hiring her.
And it is this very like oddcouple.
You know, he's highbrow BritishBroadway producer, and she's
very like lowbrow queens, Jewishwoman, you know, nothing in
common.
Instant sexual chemistry,obviously, and a very good will
(10:18):
they won't they vibe that doesget resolved later.
And so that's kind of the mainarc that brings them together.
And then you have, I think mysecond favorite relationship on
the show, besides her and thekids, is her relationship with
Niles the butler.
They are BFF, they are fastfriends, they have this awesome
(10:39):
dynamic, they get along superwell.
And the third person kind of inthat dynamic is Cece Babcock,
who is Maxwell Sheffield'sbusiness partner.
And she and Niles hate eachother, and she and Fran, I guess
you could also say kind of likehate each other, because she is
in love with Maxwell, and shecan see that he finds Fran like
(11:00):
attractive and flirts with her alot, and you know, and they have
a great dynamic, so she's veryjealous.
So it's a lot of moving parts.
It's like Cece loves Max butdoesn't love like his kids and
doesn't love Niles or Fran.
And then Fran and Niles likelike each other, and Max and
Fran like like each other, andshe obviously loves the kids as
their nanny.
(11:21):
So it's a lot of like differentmoving parts, and then there's
the side characters of like herdumb Italian best friend, who's
like a great Italian stereotype,I guess.
And then her mom and hergrandma, who are these amazing
older Jewish women, and they'reso the mom is so brassy and
(11:43):
loud, and the grandma is likeelderly and forgetful, but
hilarious.
So I think it's like the samedynamic that I loved in the
Golden Girls.
You see it in the nanny.
And I always think the GoldenGirls, I'm like, We have four
Jew, four women in Florida, andthere's no Jewish person.
Like, are you kidding me?
So maybe that's that is a verygood point.
(12:06):
And I think I think it wassupposed to be like Sophia and
Dorothy were supposed to bethere.
I think they were supposed to beJewish at one point, and then
they switched it to Italian,which works, but I think I get
like my wish fulfillment in thenanny, where I'm like, all
right, finally, like someJewish, some good Jewish
representation.
That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Hollywood producers, if you're listening, I think
there's definitely demand, likethere's a market for the Golden
Girls reboot with some Jewishwomen included.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
So I mean, seriously, if you go to like, I
mean, I don't want to start.
Especially in Florida.
SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
Right.
Yeah.
Well no, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right, cool.
Thank you for setting the stage.
So, our whole project on DeepThoughts is to like what some
would say overthink, what we sayis keep our eyes open.
But what do you want to talkabout?
What do you want to unpack?
What were the lessons that youwere sort of taking when you
were casually imbibing this as akid?
(13:00):
And then even in lockdown whenyou're re-watching it, like what
are the things in there that youknow that that it was giving
you, whether you knew it or not?
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
I mean, I think it's funny, as a kid, I feel like
what stood out was she wasbasically like the fun nanny.
She was kind of like that funmom archetype of like, you know,
she would give the girls tips onlike makeup and clothes and all
that, but also, you know, beaware of like, hey, you're 18
and you're trying to date a25-year-old.
(13:30):
Like, no, that's not gonna work.
But she knew how to parent thekids in a way that Mr.
Sheffield didn't.
Like, she knew that you can'tjust say no to a 16-year-old
girl.
You have to let her kind offigure it out for herself in a
safe way, but let the kids makemistakes.
And I feel like there's a lot ofgood.
(13:51):
I'm not a parent, but I feellike there are some good
parenting lessons in the nannyof you can't just like keep your
kids locked up.
Like you have to let them liketry things out for themselves
and fail and learn the hard way,but in a way that's gonna give
them like real world experienceand confidence for the future
and show that you respect themas individuals.
(14:12):
But the comedy is so good.
I mean, some of the jokes Idefinitely did not understand as
a kid.
There's one scene, I don'tremember, again, I don't
remember the setup, but the mom,Sylvia, says something like, Oh
yeah, I'll just pretend to dothis.
And Fran says, I hope you fakeit better with daddy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
And she says, I was his first.
What does he know?
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
Okay.
So takeaway, nanny, not forkids.
Not actually for kids, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:45):
Yeah, it's like, I know I watched that as a kid.
I'm sure I watched, you know,like there's sex jokes in every
episode.
And again, it's just it wouldhave just been like faking.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Right.
Wow.
Okay.
So the humor I feel like isyeah, it works on so many
levels.
Yeah, there's this, I think oneof my favorite episodes, they
(15:08):
Fran and her mom get held up atthe at there's a bank robbery at
their bank, and they get heldup.
And it's this brilliant parodyof Dog Day Afternoon with Al
Pacino.
And Dog Day Afternoon is like avery serious, intense movie.
It holds up really well.
I actually watched it recently,and this episode is basically
(15:30):
like Dog Day Afternoon if thebank robber was just like a
complete idiot and had no, like,he just wanted the money, but
he's an idiot, and there's justa lot of great humor in that.
And there's there's this reallyfunny line where Max comes down
to where the bank robbery ishappening, and he's like
freaking out, and and he'sasking the police, like, have
you heard anything?
(15:51):
Have you heard gunshots,anything, any noise?
And uh, the officer says, No,it's been completely quiet.
And he says, Oh my god, she'sdead.
Because she's has this, as wesaid, she's this loud nasal
voice that I think was when youhear her talk now, like the
(16:11):
nasal is there, but it'sdefinitely not as pronounced.
It's almost like a female SteveUrkel, if you will.
But yeah, it's just things likethat.
And there's this great scene inthat episode where they're
trying to figure out where toorder food from, and the mom,
Sylvia, says, Oh, I'm feelingsomething light, like Fettuccini
Alfredo.
(16:32):
Something light.
That's funny.
So it's just it's a lot of theepisodes, like if you wanted to
just jump into a random one, youcould, you would not really need
to know much, except the willthey won't they dynamic between
Max and Fran.
Really, I mean, I think my onlycomplaint about the show is how
(16:53):
long they drag out therelationship between the two of
them.
Like it takes them, I think,until the second to last season
to actually get together, whichisn't as long as some shows or
about the same as some shows,but they have this moment, I
think in season three, where hetells her he loves her as like
(17:16):
they're about to die in a planecrash, and then he takes it
back, and it becomes thisrunning thing of like, Oh, you
said you love me and you took itback.
And when you binge a show, youknow, it's like, oh my god, they
talk about it all the time.
So that's like why I think myonly complaint is like they
really drag out, like, are theygonna get together or not?
Storyline.
(17:36):
It it really feels like there'sjust like it's hitting you in
the face like every episode.
SPEAKER_03 (17:42):
Yeah.
That feels like a like anAmerican sitcom thing, right?
Because we don't like we learnfrom what was it, moonlighting
that once they get together, theshow kind of dies.
So like I feel like that's a anAmerican show kind of thing that
happens because the producersdon't want them to actually get
together because then thetension is what makes people
keep coming back.
Yeah, yeah.
(18:02):
Yeah.
I would like, if I may, I havetwo like brilliant finance minds
on with me, right?
Like two like finance writers onwith me.
And we're talking about thisshow at with like where class is
like a kind of a central likecomponent of the plot and the
(18:24):
storyline, right?
Is this class difference?
I would really like to talkabout that, like even what you
said about the parenting tips orthe parenting like wisdom that
comes from Fran, which I thinkis a like a an interesting
insight.
I'm glad you brought that.
And I would like to like askwhat lessons are we getting as
the consumers when thatparenting wisdom comes from
(18:49):
Fran, who is the the woman, thesort of working class woman, the
Jewish woman, like versus theman who is owning class, who's
British?
Like, are there, do you thinkthat there are sort of like
lessons and stereotypes aboutwho owns parenting wisdom or
(19:12):
like who is capable?
Is there anything about class doyou think, like baked into that,
or other pieces of Fran beingsort of actually wiser, maybe,
than Mr.
Sheffield, despite the kind oflike the meritocracy that would
suggest that his money wouldbring wisdom, or he got his
money through wisdom, orwhatever.
I don't know if that's enough ofa question, but like I'd love to
(19:35):
hear either one of you expoundon sort of what kind of lessons
or assumptions about society orsubversions of assumptions about
society that are baked into thatdynamic.
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
I mean, I think they definitely show him being out of
touch with his kids, kind ofthat stereotypical, like rich
person hires a nanny to raisehis children.
And I mean, obviously, I feellike I shouldn't have to say
this, but obviously workingparents deserve like need to
have childcare arrangements andall that.
But he there's definitely a lotof like he's a kind of a work
(20:06):
working all the time and doesn'tknow what's going on.
So there's definitely that.
And then there's also just hedoesn't, I mean, he comes from
an age where once he hit, Idon't know, a certain age, he
was just sent off to boardingschool and his parents weren't
around to raise him.
So it's almost like I thinkthere's almost an implication
(20:27):
of, well, I'm not doing that.
I'm actually like living with mychildren, so I I am parenting
them, but he doesn't really knowwhat's going on.
Like he doesn't really know whatthe kids are dealing with, and
there's a little bit of like hedoes trust Fran to make the
decisions, but there's also likean episode where Brighton, his
(20:48):
son, wants to go to a mall inNew Jersey with some kids, and
she says no, because she's like,I'm not letting you drive to New
Jersey with a 16-year-old thatjust got their license.
Like, that's not safe.
And he comes to the dad and sheand he basically accuses Fran of
overprotecting him, and he'slike, Well, you know, like
that's okay for the girls, butlike I don't need that.
(21:09):
And the dad agrees with him,which in 2026 does not look
great.
And he's like, Oh yeah, likeBrian doesn't need that.
And then she has the kid who'sdriving them, driving in
quotation marks, come to thedoor, and she's basically like
asking him all these questionsand he can't answer them.
And then it turns out, like, ohyeah, they just like paid this
(21:32):
responsible looking kid to comeand pretend that he's the one
driving.
And that would have fooled Max,but it wouldn't fool Fran
because she's streetwise.
So it's almost like book smartsversus street smarts, I think,
is the dichotomy you see islike, yeah, he knows about
culture and opera and you know,all these things, but she it's
(21:54):
almost like she's young enoughto remember what a kid would do
to get out of something, and sheShe is just she's got like an
innate sense of okay, the kidwants this thing.
This is how they're gonna try toget me to say yes, and this is
how I'm gonna figure out whatit's actually going on.
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
And it sounds to me like, just quickly, it sounds to
me like the showrunners actuallywanted us to see that Fran's way
was better.
Yes?
Like that's I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I think they're trying to showyou.
SPEAKER_03 (22:23):
Like we judge Mr.
Sheffield for the decision thatyou just described.
Like we are meant to judge him.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it's almost yeah, heis smart in his lane, but the
kids are like her lane.
SPEAKER_02 (22:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So the thing that struck me withthe fact that he would just say
no, and she wants to give themlike scaffolded independence is
the way that people with moneytend to solve problems and think
of money as the only solution toa problem.
(22:56):
So, like, once once you havemoney and you're used to using
money to solve problems, that isthe that's the go-to solution.
So, like, oh, okay, I can't dothis.
Well, if I throw money at it, Ican do it.
And so, oh, my kid is looking todo something that I disapprove
of, I say no.
And that is the only solution,that's the only tool in my
(23:17):
toolbox.
And so it's a similar kind ofmindset, I think.
And so it feels to me likethere's a similar, and it's
also, I think, a more masculinemindset as well, where it's just
like, this is the way I dealwith it.
I say no, and you obey me, andthat's it.
(23:37):
Um, I have the money, and so youhave to do what I say, and
that's it.
Whereas someone who has had tofigure things out because they
don't have money is going to bein a much better position to
recognize, like, well, justbecause I'm told no doesn't mean
I'm gonna obey, and also isgoing to recognize there's lots
(24:00):
of other tools in the toolkit.
If you don't have money, if youcan't just say no to someone and
all of that.
So I think that's an aspect ofit as well.
There's it's there's thatheavy-handedness of being a
powerful person with money.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
So you're saying you think that's like a reflection
that the showrunners arereflecting reality.
That's how a man with that kindof money and privilege would
actually act rather than somesort of like.
I think I was trying to suggestthat maybe there were some like
assumptions about I mean, whichis true, but but maybe some like
actually pronouncements aboutthe way things should be.
(24:35):
But you're sort of saying thisis a reflection of how things
are.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
Yeah.
And not in a like, I mean, Mr.
Sheffield, as I remember it, isuh he's a good sympathetic
character.
He's a sympathetic character wholoves his children and is doing
his best, but you know, he'sstill out of touch.
He's out of touch, yeah.
And he doesn't know what else todo other than throw his money
around and say no.
Right.
Cool.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Yeah, and I feel like, and this is probably such
a huge swing, but I feel likewatching this in 2026, there's
almost like a parallel to howwe've watched like Prince Harry
and Meghan Markle navigate theBritish monarchy.
It's a very like, you do this,you do it this way, this is the
way it's always been done.
And then you get like anAmerican coming in who's almost
(25:18):
like the fly and the oyman who'slike, well, why do we have to do
this?
Like, why do we, why are wedoing things the same way we've
been doing them for hundreds ofyears?
And it almost feels that way,like when Fran comes in, like
she's very much like, Why are wedoing it this way?
Like, why are you saying no?
Why are you saying yes to thesethings?
Like, let's live in reality.
And he's living in his likeBritish nobility bubble, and
(25:40):
she's coming in with like, no,like we don't need to do that,
like we could just do this.
And it's fun to see the kidsrespond to, like, oh yeah, like
that way, even if they're notalways saying that way is
better, it's almost like they'resaying, like, well, yeah, this
feels like the more modern wayto do things or the more
equitable way to do things.
SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
That's a really interesting since he is British.
No, I think it's reallyinteresting.
Like, whether we're talkingabout Harry and Meghan or just
British culture versus Americanculture, like when we did our
episode about a fish calledWanda, we talked a lot about the
ways that sort of we see the twocultures juxtaposed in different
(26:17):
pop culture.
And it's interesting to see itjuxtaposed by British writers
versus by American writers.
Both seem to think thatAmericans are better at some
things, but we're vulgar andwe're crass.
And like that actually seems tobe reflected even by these, I
assume American writers in TheNanny, where Fran is better at a
lot of things, but she's brassyand whatever.
(26:40):
So I think that that's a reallyinteresting extra layer that
you've brought in by making thatconnection.
Thank you for doing that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And as someone who's beenwatching Downton Abbey for the
first time recently, I feel likeit's like they're always saying,
Oh, Cora doesn't the AmericanCora, like, oh, she doesn't
respect tradition.
She doesn't understandtradition.
And then you see, like, oh, thisthe way you've been doing things
is not maybe like the mosthelpful.
And I'm only on season three, sono spoilers.
I haven't watched it at all.
(27:07):
So watch three more seasons.
Yeah, you're ahead of us.
SPEAKER_03 (27:11):
But like in Fish Called Wanda, which was written
by John Cleese, who is British,there was this sense that like
the Brits are like very properand they're very smart, but
they're dead inside.
And Americans are brass andvulgar and maybe not so smart,
some of them, but they're alive.
And I like that I see thatactually kind of reflected in
(27:31):
this American show, the way thatI know it, the way you've
described it with Fran, she'svery much alive.
Yes, you know, like she's apresence, and it's brassy and
annoying sometimes, but it'salive, it's vibrant.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
That even gets back to what your beef with the show
is.
Mr.
Sheffield doesn't say only sayshe loves her when he thinks he's
about to die, and then he takesit back.
Yes.
So, you know, and she is livelyand vibrant and for all of the
seasons and is happy to beloving and alive through all of
the seasons, but he's right now,right now.
(28:07):
Even when there's not like aeven when there's not a plane
crash coming, right?
But she has to coax him out ofbeing a little dead inside.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Yeah.
I mean, you really see it in howhe doesn't talk about his late
wife.
I think she's been dead forseveral years.
I want to say like five yearswhen the show starts or
something.
And he never talks about her.
And there's this episode, I wantto say season one or two, where
(28:38):
Fran and the youngest daughter,Gracie, do a mother-daughter
pageant, and then someone islike, You can't do this, that's
not your mom.
And she's like, My mom's dead.
And she gets really upset, andMax is trying to comfort her,
and he's like, This is why Ididn't want you to do this
pageant.
And she says, I'm not upsetbecause I'm thinking about mom.
I'm upset because I don'tremember her because I was so
young when she died.
(28:59):
And she says, And you never talkabout her.
And you kind of see that playout.
Like Max doesn't talk about herbecause he thinks, well, if you
talk about her, that makes yousad.
And you see the kids kind ofsay, like, well, you never talk
about her, and that makes usfeel like we can't talk about
her, and we can't talk about howmuch we miss her.
And there's this beautifulepisode in the last season, I
(29:20):
think, where Fran, once Fran andMax are married, she wants to
adopt the kids, like legallyadopt them as her own, partially
because the youngest two arestill under 18.
So if something were to happento Max, like she wouldn't, you
know, get custody.
And the parents of the late wifecome and they want to fight her
on that.
They don't want her to adoptthem legally.
(29:42):
They say, like, well, we thinklike you're just forgetting
about Sarah entirely.
And the kids say, No, it'sactually Fran who will show us
videos of her when we miss her.
And they light a Yortsite candlefor her.
Oh.
Which is like a beautiful.
I'm like, oh, that's like one ofthe best traditions that the
Jews have that we folks have.
I feel like we're always likeFran even says she goes, if we
(30:05):
didn't talk about the dead, whatwould we talk about?
And Max is the opposite.
He's like, no, like that's sad,and therefore we don't broach
the subject at all.
And it feels very real.
Like the British kind offamously don't talk about their
feelings.
Yeah.
Whether that's like a fairstereotype to in today's age or
(30:26):
not, I don't know.
But that's like a very feelslike a very real thing.
And Jews are always, I mean,it's like we only name each
other, we only name our kidsafter like dead people.
Yeah.
So it's almost like, yeah, likewe we love talking about the
past and who came before us andall that.
So it's this, it meshes reallywell when you have someone who's
(30:47):
dealing with the passing of hislate wife that he can't really
deal with.
Then the kids who are Americando want to deal with it.
That's really interesting.
Was his late wife British or washis late wife American?
She is American.
Okay.
unknown (31:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (31:03):
I want to circle back to something that we talked
about like very briefly, almosttangentially, when you talked
about how great she dresses,like how great Fran dresses.
Let's dig into that a littlebit.
I think I want to talk about acouple of things in that.
One is like, I feel like you'relike the influence on you and
your fashion, but I also reallywant to talk about in terms in
(31:23):
within the layers of class andcrassness.
Like my recollection is that shedressed kind of like garish.
Like I was meant to think of heras yes.
Yes.
Yes.
And yet you're saying likefabulous.
Can we like unpack that a littlebit?
SPEAKER_01 (31:42):
Because I think I'm a little, I'm like just a few
years younger than Emily.
And Emily, you're like just afew years younger than Tracy,
not to bless everyone.
I don't think we're I'll be 50this year.
I'm happy to say it out loud.
And I'm 37.
So I was, yeah, like a childwatching this.
And so I remember as a kidthinking, like, oh, she looks,
yeah, like she looks trashy.
(32:02):
Or I meant to think she lookstrashy.
And I feel like that's kind ofthe joke sometimes is like, oh,
she looks like a hooker.
But watching it as adult, I'mlike, first of all, rockin' bod
on Fran Dresher, like she wearsa crop top a lot and like not an
ounce of fat on her.
That woman is a goddess.
I mean, like, wow.
Yeah.
And I think there's some, like,you hear about it later.
(32:24):
I think there there was likesome, like, I don't know if it
was like an eating disorder onher end, or more just like
control from her husband of likehow she looked and if she was
like thin enough and stuff.
So Oh, you mean the actress?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:35):
Actually, had some sort of disordered eating.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
I think she did.
I think her husband was like alittle controlling when they
were doing the show of like youhave to look at the floor.
Still sounds disordered.
Yeah.
But not because of her mentalstate, maybe.
Yeah.
And on the show, like she, youknow, kind of does the
traditional thing of like, I'm awoman and I eat whatever I want,
and I still emer size zero.
But very 90s thing where likeyou can have it all.
(33:01):
It was a flex.
It was a flex.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But watching the show as anadult, I'm like, she looks
amazing.
Her outfits, I think, are great.
It's all designer.
I've tried to look it up a lot.
Um, it's all designer.
And it's funny.
I think one of the episodeswhere she's responsible for like
doing the costumes in one ofMax's productions, the actor
(33:25):
that plays like her cousin,who's helping her with the
costumes, is actually like thereal designer Todd Oldham, whose
fashion she wore on the showlike a lot, which is a fun
throwback.
But she does a lot.
And I was reading about thefashion because I was like, oh,
there's a unique style.
She does a lot of like shortskirt and turtleneck with
(33:45):
tights.
A lot of tights.
And she does, or she doesturtleneck with like mini dress
a lot.
So it's like there is somecoverage, like when she's like
being the nanny and like beingaround the kids, of like, okay,
I'm wearing tights and I'mwearing a turtleneck, but it's
still a short skirt.
But then when you see her go outon a date, I've noticed even
(34:09):
then there's a lot of likethere's a short dress, but she's
still wearing tights orsomething.
So it's like, yeah, as a kid, Iwas like, oh yeah, she's
supposed to, we're supposed tothink she's dressed like a
hooker.
But I'm like, I would wear thatto a party, like a short dress
and tights, especially in theseIndiana winters.
But yeah, I realize now I do alot of like a turtleneck with
(34:30):
like a pencil skirt.
I mean, my skirts are nowherenear a short because I have a
real job.
But I realized the other day Iwas getting dressed and I was
like, I think this is like thenanny coated in my head.
But I'm like, oh, this looks sogood.
SPEAKER_03 (34:44):
So I think that's really interesting.
Like that we're meant to thinkthat she looks cheap.
Yes.
And yet it's all designer.
Like the kind of tension in thatis really interesting to me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
And she doesn't pretend that she's buying not
designer.
Like, there's there are severalepisodes where she's like, Oh, I
have no money.
Oh, look at my new dolce purse.
Like, it's not as bad as the Sexin the City kind of carry
wardrobe, but she is alwaysgoing to Lowman's and like
buying things like 80% off.
Uh-huh.
(35:16):
Uh-huh.
And she's always trying to get agood deal, and because she is
living on like six dollars anhour or whatever her pay was.
But she's very into like whatshe's wearing and all that.
So yeah, it's supposed to thinkI think it's like, oh, she's
dressing like slutty, and I'mputting that quotation marks,
(35:39):
but everything is like high-endat the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
You know, what's interesting is it feels like she
is pushing back against, and Idon't know how old Fran Dressher
was at the time.
I'm guessing in her 30s.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
I'm guessing.
The character is in her 30s.
SPEAKER_02 (35:55):
Okay.
But it feels like, and you'dmentioned like she's like
high-end mafia wife.
Yes, high-end mob wife.
High-end mob wife.
What it feels like is the waythat she's dressing is
eye-catching.
And you're not supposed to dothat once you're a real
grown-up, once you're an adult.
(36:15):
Like eye-catching is like atbest into your mid-20s.
And that's part of what I feellike is subversive about her
character and her fashionchoices, is that she is happy to
be eye-catching, and she doesn'tthink that there is any, there's
an age limit to eye-catching.
And I think I feel like that'strue of Fran Dresha herself,
(36:37):
because you see the actress now,she still wears very
eye-catching clothing.
And then that I feel like hasmade a difference culturally.
So our great-grandmother used tosay when she would see an older
woman wearing something that ourgreat-grandmother deemed too
(36:58):
young for her, would say, muttonparading as lamb.
SPEAKER_01 (37:02):
Which I've heard that before.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
Yeah.
And like the line itself is likeI can I had found it funny at
points in my life, but I'm nowlike horrified that was
something that was passed downfor so many generations.
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
I think that there's that's also everything about the
way Fran dresses, I agree withyou, Emily, but that it also is
a continuation of some of thethings we've already talked
about (37:31):
American versus British, right?
Alive versus dead, workingclasses versus owning classy.
Like the owning class are meantto be classy.
Like that's why we use the word.
And like classy is like modestand neutral.
Yes, which Fran is neither.
Yeah.
Although there it's she's notimmodest either, as you pointed
out, Zina.
(37:51):
She's not immodest.
Let's come back to the fact thatFran had a rock and bod.
And it turns out actually thatrockin' bod was like at least in
part the result of like not coolcontrol of someone else.
Like, let's talk.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
And I should say, like, I don't know, like the
real I only saw in like oneinterview.
She suffered like a really Ithink it was like her and her
husband, they I think theirhouse was broken into and there
was a sexual assault on her.
And I saw an interview with herabout that, and she talks about
after that her husband got worsein terms of like controlling.
So it was like a really horrificevent in her real life, and I
(38:31):
think it happened while the showwas still airing.
And I wish I was old enough toremember, like, well, did we
talk about how because there wasso much fat shaming like in the
90s and the 2000s, and oh yeah,it was just normal, yeah.
And I don't know how like in thepeople magazine, I don't know if
we were like, oh my god, FranDressure looks great, or if
there was any kind of like, orif it was just internal between
(38:54):
the two of them.
So I don't know the dynamic, buton the show, there is so much
fat shaming on Fran's mom, andit really that's the only thing
that kind of like bums me outwhen I re-watch it, because it's
just like it just feels mean tofor a daughter to say that to
her mom.
Oh yeah, yeah.
So that's the only thing I'mlike, that's a real person.
(39:15):
Like, that's I don't know if theactress is wearing like any
padding or like doesn't matter.
Yeah, but if the actressactually if that was her body,
it's even worse on a granderscale.
Like, oh my god, you're actuallymaking fun of like a real
person's body right now.
SPEAKER_02 (39:31):
And lots of real people who look like that, who
are watching the show, yeah,right?
Well, and I remember Sylviahaving like great style too,
because that's where Fran got itfrom.
Like, I remember like shedressed in the similar kind of
like sequins and you know,similar kind of catching where
it's like, yeah, lady, get it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
Sylvia dresses like real mob wife, and Fran is like
I said, elevated.
Yeah, Sylvia is I've beenwatching uh the Sopranos for the
first time, and I feel likeSylvia dresses like 80s
sopranos, like if the that kindof timeline of just like very of
its time, and Fran is just likea little more like, okay, well,
(40:10):
yeah, I'm gonna wear like adesigner version of Leopard
Print or something.
SPEAKER_03 (40:14):
There's another thing that we've talked at
several points, like kind oftangentially, about the fact
that this is like a Jewish show,that there's like Emily started
by saying how much Yiddish therewas in it.
Yes.
So I would love for the three ofus to like unpack a little bit.
Like you mentioned Zina, likeprobably there were actual New
York Jews in the writer's room.
(40:34):
Like it's it's real.
So I want to unpack like howmuch of this representation was
like awesome, I feel seen, andhow much was like stereotypes.
Sometimes those things are thesame, but like how much like
let's unpack the good, the bad,and the neutral from the
Jewishness of the nanny.
SPEAKER_01 (40:54):
Yeah, I mean, it feels very like the Yiddish
again.
Like, I'm I guess my family, wehad a smattering of Yiddish
phrase, like Masuga, like a verybasic level.
But I watched the nanny and I'mlike, I don't know what a haza
is, but I I guess I know now.
Or like, if someone had put agun to my head and said, What
does Yenta mean?
(41:15):
I don't know if I could havegotten like the full definition.
So it's almost been like aneducation in some ways of like,
oh, I'm learning like Yiddishphrases, like that's cool.
And the I think that's where itfeels very Jewish because I'm
like, you can't fake this.
You can't, yeah.
And back then, like you couldn'thave Googled, like, what are
some key Jewish phrases I shouldput in here and how I like
(41:36):
there's like a way to use themthat feels authentic.
SPEAKER_03 (41:39):
Right, right.
And especially if it's not justlike Mazletov or Schmuck, which
are the ones that have made itinto the American lexicon.
Yeah, cool.
Okay.
So that feels like in the goodcolumn.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Yeah, and there's this really funny line.
I think it's in the pilot whereFran comes to the door and she's
in the house and she goes, Oh, Ilove your tchotchkis.
And Maxwell says, Excuse me?
And he's like, My what now?
And I legit, like my husband andI had a uh disagreement once
because I said tchotchki, andhe's like, That's a Yiddish
(42:11):
word.
And I was like, No, it's not.
And he was like, Yes, it is, andhe's not Jewish.
And I was like, It's not aYiddish word, it's a regular
word.
And we looked it up and I waslike, It's Yiddish.
I've I was just like, doeseveryone not know what a
tchotchki?
SPEAKER_03 (42:22):
Yeah, she thought it was just the word for knick
knack that everybody says,right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
Yeah, so that I think is good and fun, and I
think Yiddish is like a veryit's like people don't realize
like where it came from and howit's so important, but I think
in so the stereotype is Franna'slike always trying to find
things on sale, and that is astereotype.
And I think in the show you see,like she doesn't come from
(42:47):
money, like her parents are verylike I would say maybe like
lower middle class, like theylive in Queens, they don't live
in Manhattan.
I feel like that's a hugedistinction, even back in the
90s.
Like her grandmother lives in ahome, she's living on a fixed
income, like all of that feelsvery real.
So it makes sense that she'sshopping like on discount and
(43:08):
trying to get like if she'sbuying a designer dress, she's
not going to like the Guccistore, she's going to Loman's
and you know, fishing it out andlike fighting like 200 women to
get that same dress.
So I don't it's tough to thinkhow much of it is like hurting
the cause versus like showinglike a different side of like
Jewish culture.
SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
Yeah, it's that's an interesting particular example,
right?
Where she's like like livinginto the stereotype of always
seeking a deal.
And also we see that she's veryworking class.
So it's like for differentreasons than what we're usually
given as the stereotype of Jewslooking for a deal.
(43:50):
It's not because she's a moneyhoarder, it's because she
doesn't have money.
SPEAKER_01 (43:53):
Yeah.
And you see her on the show, sheis like always, she's always in
credit card debt, which I'mlike, but yeah, like.
Like she's always like basicallyspending her money on clothes
and all that.
So I almost like don't have aproblem with her being frugal
because it feels like, well,she's living on if not minimum
wage, then like what was like alittle above minimum wage, and
(44:16):
she's not good with money, butshe also doesn't have a lot of
it, and she's not like I keepthinking so.
Recently I I said to a friend,like, do you know what Jewish
American princess means?
And he said no.
And I was like, Okay, so that'sa phrase that like has died,
thankfully.
Maybe, yeah, maybe.
And I was thinking, like, is shethat stereotype?
(44:37):
But she's not, it's like, Idon't know how spoiled she is
because she doesn't really comefrom a lot of money.
SPEAKER_03 (44:43):
Right, right.
Yeah, it's so her frugalityalmost in this character almost
is subversive because it's notabout greed, it's actually about
I don't know, necessity, Iguess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's an that it's aninteresting tension on the
stereotype.
Yeah.
(45:03):
Anything else going on with thissort of oh, sorry, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
I'm curious about what other aspects of Jewish
culture.
Like one of my pet peeves is thefact that any time that like
Jewish holidays are mentioned inanything in media, it's
Hanukkah.
And so just curious if there'syou mentioned that they talk
about lighting the art sitelights for Mr.
Sheffield's first wife, but uh,what other aspects of like the
(45:28):
Jewish religion are mentioned?
SPEAKER_01 (45:30):
Yeah, there's this one episode, I think in one of
the later seasons, but I thinkbefore she and Max are together,
where the Fine family hasinvited the Sheffield family to
their home for a holiday.
And I wish I could remember theexact joke, but Max says
something like, Is this the onewhere we do this and then eat?
And Niall says, No, no, it's theone where we do this and then
(45:52):
eat and then get and then stuffourselves.
And I it's I think it it'ssomething like I don't think
it's Yom Kippur.
I think maybe it's like Sukkotor something, where I'm like,
again, must have had real Jewishwriters if they're talking about
Sukkot or something.
Like even talking about Yom Kifuor feels a little like, oh,
okay, like you know, we'regetting into it.
So yeah, but they still do thething of she eats pork, and
(46:17):
they're like, How do you eatpork if that's not kosher?
And she's like, Oh no, it'sokay, it's allowed.
And it feels like a real, likeuh, these are real like reform
Jews where it's like you'reskirting the rules, you know, or
well, you know, rules are aconstruct.
But it just feels like these arelike I could have grown up with
these people in some way.
SPEAKER_03 (46:37):
Yeah.
Thank you for asking thequestion, Emily.
I think that that the way you'redescribing it now, Zina, I'm
feeling like it's a positiverepresentation, like rat like
where we like what I describe,where we feel sort of seen.
Like if they're mentioningSukkot, if she's sort of, you
know, talking about the waysthat she follows some of the
rule, some of the sort oftraditions and not others.
(47:00):
Like that's very real.
That's how many Jews live inAmerica, you know, especially in
Queens, right?
Like she's not from, she's notOrthodox.
So let's actually see a realthat that sounds great, frankly.
Like, I'm I'm delighted to hearyour description of that.
That's pretty cool.
And the fact that, as Emilysaid, it's not just like, oh
(47:22):
yeah, we're gonna celebrateHanukkah because it's the Jewish
Christmas, which you know,listeners, it ain't.
That's not it.
Yeah.
So, you know, that there,there's like they're talking
about other holidays like thatactually are much more important
in the liturgical calendar.
Like, I love it.
That sounds great.
SPEAKER_01 (47:38):
Yeah, yeah.
There's always this internallike battle when when watching
the nanny, because some of thosestereotypes of how her mother
like always wants her to getmarried, is like always pushing,
like, go meet a doctor.
Or there was one episode whereshe meets a guy and she's like,
Well, I know you're not alawyer.
And he's like very blondehaired, blue-eyed.
And he goes, How do you know I'mnot a lawyer?
And she goes, Well, not in NewYork, maybe in LA.
unknown (48:01):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (48:04):
And that's the kind of humor I'm like, damn, like
that's right on the line.
Yeah, like would you do thatjoke now?
Like, would that fly?
SPEAKER_03 (48:13):
It's also very, I just wouldn't name this, it's
very Ashkenormative, like as ifthe only Jews are Ashkenazi
Jews.
Jews come in all colors and all,you know, like it's and always
have.
Most Americans are familiar withAshkenazi Jews, which is you
know what Emily and I are, whatI'm assuming you are, Zina, but
yes, we're not the only kind ofJews there are.
(48:35):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
No, and we've known like full Jews that are
blonde-haired, like, you know,we've known red-haired Jews.
Yeah.
It's a religion.
SPEAKER_03 (48:43):
It's like Ashkenazi is an ethnicity, but Judaism is
a religion.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
No, it's it's very like putting all Jews in one
bubble.
Yeah, that joke just like cracksme up, or where she makes she
makes a joke about like wanting,she's like, Oh, I'll just meet
the doctor the old-fashionedway.
And he goes, How?
And she goes, I'll faint andtemple.
SPEAKER_00 (49:07):
That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_03 (49:09):
Yeah.
All right, we are running shorton time.
So I want to ask, is thereanything that we haven't talked
about that you wanted to makesure our listeners knew about
the nanny?
SPEAKER_01 (49:18):
I think one thing that's kind of interesting is so
in the show, her mom is alwayslike pushing her to get married
and like, you know, have kids.
And she is always talking aboutthat as well.
And then there's one point whereMax is like, I think you need to
go see a therapist and talkabout how like all you're
obsessed about is like gettingmarried, having kids.
And she does do that.
(49:40):
Like, she there's like, and it'sa very long arc, it's not like a
one episode, two episode arc,it's like almost like a
season-long or even a coupleseasons of like she's going to
this therapist and talking abouthow all she can think about is
like getting married and havingkids.
So it's interesting becausethere's a point where I'm like,
oh my god, this is soanti-feminist.
Like, all you care about is likehaving a house on Long Island
(50:02):
with your like husband and twoand 2.5 children.
But she does try to work on it,and there's a point where she
tells Max, like, okay, like ifyou don't want to do this, like
I'm out, like, I gotta leave.
So, in some ways, I feel likeit's she's trying to get better
about it.
Cause you know, it's hard as awoman watching a show like that
(50:24):
and being like, You have nocareer aspirations, like you
sometimes she thinks, like, whatam I supposed to do when these
kids get older?
What job?
Like, it's almost like shedoesn't like being a nanny, she
likes being in that house withthose kids and like them
specifically.
It's not like she's a licensedchildcare provider in any way.
(50:46):
She very much fell into this.
So it is nice being like alittle like, okay, there is a
small part of you that's like,hmm, I am a woman with other
things to do in my life besidesjust fulfill my mother's desire.
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_03 (50:59):
I think I have a feeling we're gonna get into
that a little bit in the shit weforgot to say, which is
available only for patrons.
So head over to our Patreon ifyou want to hear more about the
nanny.
But first, let me actually seeif I can reflect back some of
the things that we talked aboutin our conversation today about
the nanny, which is really wewent to a lot of places
actually.
So I'm gonna start with theplace where I think we ended
(51:21):
accidentally, which is the waysin which the nanny actually kind
of displays a juxtapositionbetween British culture and
American culture, and the waythat that plays out in this
family dynamic with that alsohas layered on top of it like
class and religion difference.
So, because we've got Mr.
Sheffield, who is British andpresumably Church of England or
(51:43):
some form of Christianity,versus Fran, who is American and
Mr.
Sheffield is also owning classversus Fran, who is working
class, Jewish from Queens.
She's so much more vibrant thanhe is, and in every way.
She's louder, her clothing islouder, her, you know, she's
(52:03):
just big personality, which weare meant to laugh at, but also
we see the ways in which she ismore alive than he is in the
metaphorical sense, which islanguage I'm borrowing from uh
Fish Called Wanda, actually,which John Cleese wrote as a
Brit.
So that's where I want to startbecause I think that was a place
that I don't know if youexpected us to go there when we
(52:26):
sat down to start talking today.
SPEAKER_01 (52:27):
I mean, it's not unexpected because Max talks
about it in several episodes.
He's like, This house was deaduntil you came in here.
He was like, You brought likelove and light and life into
this house.
And it you it's very sweet.
I feel like you kind of see howhe's like, You brought me back
from the dead, and you broughtmy kids back.
(52:48):
Like you brought you gave themlike a maternal influence, and
it really feels like there'sthis beautiful episode where she
one of the kids, the son haslike a skateboarding accident,
and she can't go see him in thehospital because she's not
family, and she dresses up as anun, classic psychiatropic to go
(53:08):
like visit, like get to be likea you know, visiting a nun.
Yeah.
And he's like, Why are you here?
and the kids say, like, she didthis because she wanted to be
here, and he's like, Oh, likeyou are family.
SPEAKER_03 (53:21):
Nice.
We spoke about fashion and howfashionable Fran is, which there
were many things layered intothe fashion.
There's the fact that like wewere supposed to think she
looked cheap, and yet it was alldesigner clothing.
She also, we know that she'slike spending a lot of money on
clothes, but she's doesn't havea lot of money, so she's seeking
out deals, which is kind of aJewish stereotype, but kind of
(53:43):
not because she's frugal, notbecause she's greedy, which
would be the stereotype, butbecause she doesn't have a lot.
And so she has to be a littlebit more savvy and careful with
her money.
We also talked about how Jewishthis show is, which in many ways
is just great representationwhere we're hearing not just
(54:04):
about Hanukkah, the JewishChristmas, but we're also
hearing about Yom Kippur andSukhot.
We're hearing about lightingYarta candles, and we're hearing
about the, you know, we'rehearing all these Yiddish words
that are used accurately, thatare not just the sort of
expected ones like Schmir orSchmuck or Mazeltav that are in
the American lexicon.
There were other Yiddish termsthat you didn't even, you didn't
(54:27):
know.
Yeah.
So that felt like positive andaccurate representation.
And I think we also heard about,we talked a bit about sort of
accurate, I think,representation of sort of what
happens to someone in thatowning class position.
So that we're not judging Mr.
Sheffield for like being out oftouch.
I mean, we are a little bit, butwe're it's in a sympathetic way
(54:49):
because that is an accuraterepresentation of someone who
has that kind of positionality,ends up interacting with others
and with his kids.
And we see him genuinely trying.
So those are the key highlightsthat I remember from our
conversation.
We are actually out of time.
So I'm gonna say thank you somuch, Zina, for being here.
(55:14):
This was a great conversation.
I was delighted to have you.
Next week, Emily, you'rebringing me your deep thoughts
on what dreams may come.
Awesome.
Look forward to hearing from youthen.
And listeners, head over to ourPatreon if you want to hear
more, because we have more tosay about the nanny.
So we're gonna hit end and thenhit begin again.
(55:36):
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(55:59):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
It's funny, as a kid, I feel like what stood out
(00:03):
was she was basically like thefun nanny.
She was kind of like that funmom archetype of like, you know,
she would give the girls tips onlike makeup and clothes and all
that, but also, you know, beaware of like, hey, you're 18
and you're trying to date a25-year-old.
Like, no, that's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_03 (00:22):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:41):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I am sopleased to welcome my friend
Zina Kumak, who will be sharingher deep thoughts about the
1990s era sitcom The Nanny withmy sister, Tracy Guy Decker, and
(01:03):
with you.
Let's dive in.
So I am so glad to welcome ZinaKumak.
She is a dear friend of mine whois a licensed financial advisor
and nationally recognizedpersonal finance writer and
speaker.
That's how we know each other.
Her advice has been featured inMoney Magazine, Nerd Wallet, and
The Wall Street Journal.
(01:24):
She has written for publicationslike Business Insider, Bankrate,
and Invistopedia.
She also paid off$28,000 ofstudent loans in three years.
As a financial wellness speaker,she has spoken to organizations
and groups including CreativeMornings, the Broward County
Library, and ScholarCon.
She is available for one-on-onehelp at chdouglas.com, and all
of this will be available in ourshow notes.
(01:46):
So welcome, Zina.
Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm super excited.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
So when you mentioned that you wanted to
talk about the nanny, I waspretty psyched about it because
it was a show that was on when Iwas in high school.
And I remember a lot of myfriends would talk about it.
And it was one of those showsthat it was not appointment TV
for me.
But every time I saw it, Ilaughed and I really enjoyed it.
I always really liked FranDrasher.
(02:13):
There was a joke that stillsticks with me where she and I
think her mother were talkingabout, and I wish I could
remember the setup, but it wassomething about how it was a
funeral home that used to be aChinese food restaurant.
And they were worried that, youknow, once you went there, you
would grieve, and then after anhour you'd feel the need to
(02:36):
grieve again.
SPEAKER_01 (02:41):
It's so good.
It's just like rapport.
SPEAKER_02 (02:47):
Yeah.
And that has lived rent-free inmy head for 30 years.
So that has stuck with me.
And I remember talking to one ofmy close friends in high school
about the show.
And it was appointment TV forhim.
He was like, Oh, I never missit.
And so I just remember it beinga very important cultural
touchstone, even though it wasone I kind of drifted in and out
(03:09):
of.
So those were some things that Iremember about it.
I remember really loving FranDresher, like leaning into being
Jewish with both her voice andthe fact that she talked about
being Jewish.
There was a lot of Yiddish thatshe used.
That was a part of her characterthat was very important.
(03:31):
It was the cultural aspect ofher character.
And then also the clothing thatshe wore, like that were, I felt
like were stereotypically kindof Jewish.
You know, that this idea that,you know, leopard prints and
things like that were somethingthat Jewish women wore, but she
was glamorous and gorgeous.
SPEAKER_01 (03:49):
Like I watch it back.
She is so beautiful.
She is, yeah, glamorous andfabulous.
And her like, I want to rate herwardrobe so bad.
It's like a lot of design, it'slike elevated mob wife, I would
say.
SPEAKER_04 (04:04):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (04:05):
That's an excellent way of describing it.
Yeah.
So those are those are kind ofthe things that that I have in
my head.
And then Mr.
Sheffield was like just a talldrink of water.
Like I can see why she had acrush on him all that time.
Yeah.
And then the enmity, and I donot remember their names, but
the blonde woman and the butler.
The enmity.
(04:26):
C.C.
and Niles.
Yes, Cece and Niles.
That I also remember reallyenjoying.
So those are the things that arein my head about it.
Tracy, what this would have beenout when you were in college, so
it kind of probably just passedyou by.
SPEAKER_03 (04:39):
No, not completely.
Like you, I sort of drifted inand out.
It was never, it wasn't one ofmy like touchstones, but I
definitely have seen multipleepisodes, like when it was new
and enjoyed them.
What's in my head about itactually is some of the same
things that you're talkingabout.
One of the things that likealways kind of struck me as
interesting was, and maybe we'llget into this, like, there's
(05:00):
definitely like class as a pieceof this, right?
Because of Mr.
Sheffield's wealth versus Franz.
But also, and also she's Jewish,but she's the lower income, like
the lower class in thehierarchy.
And so that always felt sort ofinteresting to me.
Cause I feel like there are someJewish stereotypes that come out
(05:22):
in the person of her character,or at least in my head, there
were.
I don't know if that's actuallyaccurate, but in my head there
are.
And yet the wealth inequality isnot where the Jewish person is
the super wealthy person.
And I, and in my head, that waslike, oh, cool.
That's a good thing.
Right.
Like that felt like a thing tolike counter some of the
(05:43):
dangerous stereotypes aboutJewishness.
So that's one of the thingsthat's in my head.
And like some of the things youguys have that you have already
talked about, just how gorgeousFran Dresher was at the time.
And and the juxtaposition of howphysically beautiful.
And then that I hope put on, butmaybe not, like that sort of
super nasal voice of hers thatlike is maybe takes some getting
(06:07):
used to, possibly.
I felt that or there was ajuxtaposition between the way
she spoke and the way shelooked, which was part of the
comedy, I think.
So those are some of the thingsthat are in my head.
I again, it was not a regularthing, but they're definitely,
it's not a it's not a tabularasa for me for the nanny.
So that's where I'm coming from.
But Zina, like when we talkedabout having you, we invited you
(06:29):
on the podcast, you were like,yeah, I want to talk about the
nanny.
So, like, why is the nanny soimportant to you?
What's special about it for you?
What's at stake?
SPEAKER_01 (06:36):
You know, I would definitely say it wasn't like
when I was growing up, myparents were really nice about
letting me watch almost anythingI wanted.
And so I watched a lot of GoldenGirls reruns with my mom,
designing women reruns with mymom.
And again, also we kind of, Idon't remember us watching a lot
of the nanny as oh, we have tosee this.
(06:56):
It wasn't, I remember watchingER every Thursday as a child,
like I have to watch the showabout the Chicago hospital.
But also, again, I don't know.
Yeah, the nanny was kind oflike, oh, when I watched it, I
liked it, but I didn't seek itout or didn't like I wasn't
aware of like, oh, the rerunserror on these days or whatever.
And then sometime I think duringlockdown, I was going through
(07:18):
shows of like, I'm gonna watchall of Friends for the first
time.
I'm gonna watch all of like thisshow for the first time.
And I did that with a nanny, andI was like, holy crap, this is
so funny.
And it it was funny in a youknow, kind of a similar 90s
sitcom way, but being a Jewishthree Jewish women on this
podcast, again, the Jewishnessof it really stood out.
(07:41):
Like it is so in your face.
There's so much Yiddish, thereare so many references.
It feels the writer's room hadactual like Jewish people in
there, and like real New YorkJews, which I'm sure a lot of
like writers' rooms have, butit's not like a it's not a
footnote.
(08:02):
It is a huge part of the showand the character, and there's
something like cozy about it.
There's something that feelslike, oh, I could have, I mean,
if my grandmother were Englishspeaking, we could have sat down
and watched together and shewould have gotten a kick out of
it.
And maybe that's kind of thehominess of it for me.
SPEAKER_03 (08:21):
Very cool.
So talk to us about well, we'llget into the conversation, but
remind us and our listeners thesetup, like, or take us through,
well, remind us quickly of thecharacters because we've
referenced them briefly in oursort of what we remember, but
remind us of the characters andthen take us through, you know,
either it's an episode you wantto talk about or some of the
(08:41):
dynamics you want to talk about,but like kind of set the context
for us and our listeners,please.
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Yeah.
So the setup, which I have tosay, if you've ever watched the
nanny, you know that the themesong, which is this like amazing
kind of like 50s, 60s callback,but it basically lays out the
whole pilot.
It's one of the few things themesongs I don't skip, even though
I've seen it now, like, I don'tknow, a hundred times.
But the basically she is workingfor her boyfriend in a bridal
(09:09):
shop in Queens, and he dumps herand fires her on the same day,
and dumps her for another womanwho later is played by Pamela
Anderson in an amazing likethree-episode arc or something.
So she has to go find anotherjob.
She's knocking on doors, tryingto sell makeup, and she ends up
at the Sheffield ref residence,which I believe is like Upper
(09:33):
East Side.
Side note, a friend of mineactually lived in that building,
which is just a bunch ofapartments, like regular
apartments.
It's still on the Upper EastSide, but very regular.
But it was amazing to see likethat facade.
So she knocks on the door andshe like instantly develops a
rapport with his three kids.
He's a widower and he's justlost his nanny because she
(09:55):
couldn't handle the kids.
So she instantly develops arapport with the three kids, and
he ends up hiring her.
And it is this very like oddcouple.
You know, he's highbrow BritishBroadway producer, and she's
very like lowbrow queens, Jewishwoman, you know, nothing in
common.
Instant sexual chemistry,obviously, and a very good will
(10:18):
they won't they vibe that doesget resolved later.
And so that's kind of the mainarc that brings them together.
And then you have, I think mysecond favorite relationship on
the show, besides her and thekids, is her relationship with
Niles the butler.
They are BFF, they are fastfriends, they have this awesome
(10:39):
dynamic, they get along superwell.
And the third person kind of inthat dynamic is Cece Babcock,
who is Maxwell Sheffield'sbusiness partner.
And she and Niles hate eachother, and she and Fran, I guess
you could also say kind of likehate each other, because she is
in love with Maxwell, and shecan see that he finds Fran like
(11:00):
attractive and flirts with her alot, and you know, and they have
a great dynamic, so she's veryjealous.
So it's a lot of moving parts.
It's like Cece loves Max butdoesn't love like his kids and
doesn't love Niles or Fran.
And then Fran and Niles likelike each other, and Max and
Fran like like each other, andshe obviously loves the kids as
their nanny.
(11:21):
So it's a lot of like differentmoving parts, and then there's
the side characters of like herdumb Italian best friend, who's
like a great Italian stereotype,I guess.
And then her mom and hergrandma, who are these amazing
older Jewish women, and they'reso the mom is so brassy and
(11:43):
loud, and the grandma is likeelderly and forgetful, but
hilarious.
So I think it's like the samedynamic that I loved in the
Golden Girls.
You see it in the nanny.
And I always think the GoldenGirls, I'm like, We have four
Jew, four women in Florida, andthere's no Jewish person.
Like, are you kidding me?
So maybe that's that is a verygood point.
(12:06):
And I think I think it wassupposed to be like Sophia and
Dorothy were supposed to bethere.
I think they were supposed to beJewish at one point, and then
they switched it to Italian,which works, but I think I get
like my wish fulfillment in thenanny, where I'm like, all
right, finally, like someJewish, some good Jewish
representation.
That's hilarious.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Hollywood producers, if you're listening, I think
there's definitely demand, likethere's a market for the Golden
Girls reboot with some Jewishwomen included.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
So I mean, seriously, if you go to like, I
mean, I don't want to start.
Especially in Florida.
SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
Right.
Yeah.
Well no, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right, cool.
Thank you for setting the stage.
So, our whole project on DeepThoughts is to like what some
would say overthink, what we sayis keep our eyes open.
But what do you want to talkabout?
What do you want to unpack?
What were the lessons that youwere sort of taking when you
were casually imbibing this as akid?
(13:00):
And then even in lockdown whenyou're re-watching it, like what
are the things in there that youknow that that it was giving
you, whether you knew it or not?
SPEAKER_01 (13:09):
I mean, I think it's funny, as a kid, I feel like
what stood out was she wasbasically like the fun nanny.
She was kind of like that funmom archetype of like, you know,
she would give the girls tips onlike makeup and clothes and all
that, but also, you know, beaware of like, hey, you're 18
and you're trying to date a25-year-old.
(13:30):
Like, no, that's not gonna work.
But she knew how to parent thekids in a way that Mr.
Sheffield didn't.
Like, she knew that you can'tjust say no to a 16-year-old
girl.
You have to let her kind offigure it out for herself in a
safe way, but let the kids makemistakes.
And I feel like there's a lot ofgood.
(13:51):
I'm not a parent, but I feellike there are some good
parenting lessons in the nannyof you can't just like keep your
kids locked up.
Like you have to let them liketry things out for themselves
and fail and learn the hard way,but in a way that's gonna give
them like real world experienceand confidence for the future
and show that you respect themas individuals.
(14:12):
But the comedy is so good.
I mean, some of the jokes Idefinitely did not understand as
a kid.
There's one scene, I don'tremember, again, I don't
remember the setup, but the mom,Sylvia, says something like, Oh
yeah, I'll just pretend to dothis.
And Fran says, I hope you fakeit better with daddy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
And she says, I was his first.
What does he know?
SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
Okay.
So takeaway, nanny, not forkids.
Not actually for kids, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:45):
Yeah, it's like, I know I watched that as a kid.
I'm sure I watched, you know,like there's sex jokes in every
episode.
And again, it's just it wouldhave just been like faking.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Right.
Wow.
Okay.
So the humor I feel like isyeah, it works on so many
levels.
Yeah, there's this, I think oneof my favorite episodes, they
(15:08):
Fran and her mom get held up atthe at there's a bank robbery at
their bank, and they get heldup.
And it's this brilliant parodyof Dog Day Afternoon with Al
Pacino.
And Dog Day Afternoon is like avery serious, intense movie.
It holds up really well.
I actually watched it recently,and this episode is basically
(15:30):
like Dog Day Afternoon if thebank robber was just like a
complete idiot and had no, like,he just wanted the money, but
he's an idiot, and there's justa lot of great humor in that.
And there's there's this reallyfunny line where Max comes down
to where the bank robbery ishappening, and he's like
freaking out, and and he'sasking the police, like, have
you heard anything?
(15:51):
Have you heard gunshots,anything, any noise?
And uh, the officer says, No,it's been completely quiet.
And he says, Oh my god, she'sdead.
Because she's has this, as wesaid, she's this loud nasal
voice that I think was when youhear her talk now, like the
(16:11):
nasal is there, but it'sdefinitely not as pronounced.
It's almost like a female SteveUrkel, if you will.
But yeah, it's just things likethat.
And there's this great scene inthat episode where they're
trying to figure out where toorder food from, and the mom,
Sylvia, says, Oh, I'm feelingsomething light, like Fettuccini
Alfredo.
(16:32):
Something light.
That's funny.
So it's just it's a lot of theepisodes, like if you wanted to
just jump into a random one, youcould, you would not really need
to know much, except the willthey won't they dynamic between
Max and Fran.
Really, I mean, I think my onlycomplaint about the show is how
(16:53):
long they drag out therelationship between the two of
them.
Like it takes them, I think,until the second to last season
to actually get together, whichisn't as long as some shows or
about the same as some shows,but they have this moment, I
think in season three, where hetells her he loves her as like
(17:16):
they're about to die in a planecrash, and then he takes it
back, and it becomes thisrunning thing of like, Oh, you
said you love me and you took itback.
And when you binge a show, youknow, it's like, oh my god, they
talk about it all the time.
So that's like why I think myonly complaint is like they
really drag out, like, are theygonna get together or not?
Storyline.
(17:36):
It it really feels like there'sjust like it's hitting you in
the face like every episode.
SPEAKER_03 (17:42):
Yeah.
That feels like a like anAmerican sitcom thing, right?
Because we don't like we learnfrom what was it, moonlighting
that once they get together, theshow kind of dies.
So like I feel like that's a anAmerican show kind of thing that
happens because the producersdon't want them to actually get
together because then thetension is what makes people
keep coming back.
Yeah, yeah.
(18:02):
Yeah.
I would like, if I may, I havetwo like brilliant finance minds
on with me, right?
Like two like finance writers onwith me.
And we're talking about thisshow at with like where class is
like a kind of a central likecomponent of the plot and the
(18:24):
storyline, right?
Is this class difference?
I would really like to talkabout that, like even what you
said about the parenting tips orthe parenting like wisdom that
comes from Fran, which I thinkis a like a an interesting
insight.
I'm glad you brought that.
And I would like to like askwhat lessons are we getting as
the consumers when thatparenting wisdom comes from
(18:49):
Fran, who is the the woman, thesort of working class woman, the
Jewish woman, like versus theman who is owning class, who's
British?
Like, are there, do you thinkthat there are sort of like
lessons and stereotypes aboutwho owns parenting wisdom or
(19:12):
like who is capable?
Is there anything about class doyou think, like baked into that,
or other pieces of Fran beingsort of actually wiser, maybe,
than Mr.
Sheffield, despite the kind oflike the meritocracy that would
suggest that his money wouldbring wisdom, or he got his
money through wisdom, orwhatever.
I don't know if that's enough ofa question, but like I'd love to
(19:35):
hear either one of you expoundon sort of what kind of lessons
or assumptions about society orsubversions of assumptions about
society that are baked into thatdynamic.
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
I mean, I think they definitely show him being out of
touch with his kids, kind ofthat stereotypical, like rich
person hires a nanny to raisehis children.
And I mean, obviously, I feellike I shouldn't have to say
this, but obviously workingparents deserve like need to
have childcare arrangements andall that.
But he there's definitely a lotof like he's a kind of a work
(20:06):
working all the time and doesn'tknow what's going on.
So there's definitely that.
And then there's also just hedoesn't, I mean, he comes from
an age where once he hit, Idon't know, a certain age, he
was just sent off to boardingschool and his parents weren't
around to raise him.
So it's almost like I thinkthere's almost an implication
(20:27):
of, well, I'm not doing that.
I'm actually like living with mychildren, so I I am parenting
them, but he doesn't really knowwhat's going on.
Like he doesn't really know whatthe kids are dealing with, and
there's a little bit of like hedoes trust Fran to make the
decisions, but there's also likean episode where Brighton, his
(20:48):
son, wants to go to a mall inNew Jersey with some kids, and
she says no, because she's like,I'm not letting you drive to New
Jersey with a 16-year-old thatjust got their license.
Like, that's not safe.
And he comes to the dad and sheand he basically accuses Fran of
overprotecting him, and he'slike, Well, you know, like
that's okay for the girls, butlike I don't need that.
(21:09):
And the dad agrees with him,which in 2026 does not look
great.
And he's like, Oh yeah, likeBrian doesn't need that.
And then she has the kid who'sdriving them, driving in
quotation marks, come to thedoor, and she's basically like
asking him all these questionsand he can't answer them.
And then it turns out, like, ohyeah, they just like paid this
(21:32):
responsible looking kid to comeand pretend that he's the one
driving.
And that would have fooled Max,but it wouldn't fool Fran
because she's streetwise.
So it's almost like book smartsversus street smarts, I think,
is the dichotomy you see islike, yeah, he knows about
culture and opera and you know,all these things, but she it's
(21:54):
almost like she's young enoughto remember what a kid would do
to get out of something, and sheShe is just she's got like an
innate sense of okay, the kidwants this thing.
This is how they're gonna try toget me to say yes, and this is
how I'm gonna figure out whatit's actually going on.
SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
And it sounds to me like, just quickly, it sounds to
me like the showrunners actuallywanted us to see that Fran's way
was better.
Yes?
Like that's I think so.
SPEAKER_01 (22:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I think they're trying to showyou.
SPEAKER_03 (22:23):
Like we judge Mr.
Sheffield for the decision thatyou just described.
Like we are meant to judge him.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it's almost yeah, heis smart in his lane, but the
kids are like her lane.
SPEAKER_02 (22:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So the thing that struck me withthe fact that he would just say
no, and she wants to give themlike scaffolded independence is
the way that people with moneytend to solve problems and think
of money as the only solution toa problem.
(22:56):
So, like, once once you havemoney and you're used to using
money to solve problems, that isthe that's the go-to solution.
So, like, oh, okay, I can't dothis.
Well, if I throw money at it, Ican do it.
And so, oh, my kid is looking todo something that I disapprove
of, I say no.
And that is the only solution,that's the only tool in my
(23:17):
toolbox.
And so it's a similar kind ofmindset, I think.
And so it feels to me likethere's a similar, and it's
also, I think, a more masculinemindset as well, where it's just
like, this is the way I dealwith it.
I say no, and you obey me, andthat's it.
(23:37):
Um, I have the money, and so youhave to do what I say, and
that's it.
Whereas someone who has had tofigure things out because they
don't have money is going to bein a much better position to
recognize, like, well, justbecause I'm told no doesn't mean
I'm gonna obey, and also isgoing to recognize there's lots
(24:00):
of other tools in the toolkit.
If you don't have money, if youcan't just say no to someone and
all of that.
So I think that's an aspect ofit as well.
There's it's there's thatheavy-handedness of being a
powerful person with money.
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
So you're saying you think that's like a reflection
that the showrunners arereflecting reality.
That's how a man with that kindof money and privilege would
actually act rather than somesort of like.
I think I was trying to suggestthat maybe there were some like
assumptions about I mean, whichis true, but but maybe some like
actually pronouncements aboutthe way things should be.
(24:35):
But you're sort of saying thisis a reflection of how things
are.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
Yeah.
And not in a like, I mean, Mr.
Sheffield, as I remember it, isuh he's a good sympathetic
character.
He's a sympathetic character wholoves his children and is doing
his best, but you know, he'sstill out of touch.
He's out of touch, yeah.
And he doesn't know what else todo other than throw his money
around and say no.
Right.
Cool.
SPEAKER_01 (24:57):
Yeah, and I feel like, and this is probably such
a huge swing, but I feel likewatching this in 2026, there's
almost like a parallel to howwe've watched like Prince Harry
and Meghan Markle navigate theBritish monarchy.
It's a very like, you do this,you do it this way, this is the
way it's always been done.
And then you get like anAmerican coming in who's almost
(25:18):
like the fly and the oyman who'slike, well, why do we have to do
this?
Like, why do we, why are wedoing things the same way we've
been doing them for hundreds ofyears?
And it almost feels that way,like when Fran comes in, like
she's very much like, Why are wedoing it this way?
Like, why are you saying no?
Why are you saying yes to thesethings?
Like, let's live in reality.
And he's living in his likeBritish nobility bubble, and
(25:40):
she's coming in with like, no,like we don't need to do that,
like we could just do this.
And it's fun to see the kidsrespond to, like, oh yeah, like
that way, even if they're notalways saying that way is
better, it's almost like they'resaying, like, well, yeah, this
feels like the more modern wayto do things or the more
equitable way to do things.
SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
That's a really interesting since he is British.
No, I think it's reallyinteresting.
Like, whether we're talkingabout Harry and Meghan or just
British culture versus Americanculture, like when we did our
episode about a fish calledWanda, we talked a lot about the
ways that sort of we see the twocultures juxtaposed in different
(26:17):
pop culture.
And it's interesting to see itjuxtaposed by British writers
versus by American writers.
Both seem to think thatAmericans are better at some
things, but we're vulgar andwe're crass.
And like that actually seems tobe reflected even by these, I
assume American writers in TheNanny, where Fran is better at a
lot of things, but she's brassyand whatever.
(26:40):
So I think that that's a reallyinteresting extra layer that
you've brought in by making thatconnection.
Thank you for doing that.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And as someone who's beenwatching Downton Abbey for the
first time recently, I feel likeit's like they're always saying,
Oh, Cora doesn't the AmericanCora, like, oh, she doesn't
respect tradition.
She doesn't understandtradition.
And then you see, like, oh, thisthe way you've been doing things
is not maybe like the mosthelpful.
And I'm only on season three, sono spoilers.
I haven't watched it at all.
(27:07):
So watch three more seasons.
Yeah, you're ahead of us.
SPEAKER_03 (27:11):
But like in Fish Called Wanda, which was written
by John Cleese, who is British,there was this sense that like
the Brits are like very properand they're very smart, but
they're dead inside.
And Americans are brass andvulgar and maybe not so smart,
some of them, but they're alive.
And I like that I see thatactually kind of reflected in
(27:31):
this American show, the way thatI know it, the way you've
described it with Fran, she'svery much alive.
Yes, you know, like she's apresence, and it's brassy and
annoying sometimes, but it'salive, it's vibrant.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
That even gets back to what your beef with the show
is.
Mr.
Sheffield doesn't say only sayshe loves her when he thinks he's
about to die, and then he takesit back.
Yes.
So, you know, and she is livelyand vibrant and for all of the
seasons and is happy to beloving and alive through all of
the seasons, but he's right now,right now.
(28:07):
Even when there's not like aeven when there's not a plane
crash coming, right?
But she has to coax him out ofbeing a little dead inside.
SPEAKER_01 (28:16):
Yeah.
I mean, you really see it in howhe doesn't talk about his late
wife.
I think she's been dead forseveral years.
I want to say like five yearswhen the show starts or
something.
And he never talks about her.
And there's this episode, I wantto say season one or two, where
(28:38):
Fran and the youngest daughter,Gracie, do a mother-daughter
pageant, and then someone islike, You can't do this, that's
not your mom.
And she's like, My mom's dead.
And she gets really upset, andMax is trying to comfort her,
and he's like, This is why Ididn't want you to do this
pageant.
And she says, I'm not upsetbecause I'm thinking about mom.
I'm upset because I don'tremember her because I was so
young when she died.
(28:59):
And she says, And you never talkabout her.
And you kind of see that playout.
Like Max doesn't talk about herbecause he thinks, well, if you
talk about her, that makes yousad.
And you see the kids kind ofsay, like, well, you never talk
about her, and that makes usfeel like we can't talk about
her, and we can't talk about howmuch we miss her.
And there's this beautifulepisode in the last season, I
(29:20):
think, where Fran, once Fran andMax are married, she wants to
adopt the kids, like legallyadopt them as her own, partially
because the youngest two arestill under 18.
So if something were to happento Max, like she wouldn't, you
know, get custody.
And the parents of the late wifecome and they want to fight her
on that.
They don't want her to adoptthem legally.
(29:42):
They say, like, well, we thinklike you're just forgetting
about Sarah entirely.
And the kids say, No, it'sactually Fran who will show us
videos of her when we miss her.
And they light a Yortsite candlefor her.
Oh.
Which is like a beautiful.
I'm like, oh, that's like one ofthe best traditions that the
Jews have that we folks have.
I feel like we're always likeFran even says she goes, if we
(30:05):
didn't talk about the dead, whatwould we talk about?
And Max is the opposite.
He's like, no, like that's sad,and therefore we don't broach
the subject at all.
And it feels very real.
Like the British kind offamously don't talk about their
feelings.
Yeah.
Whether that's like a fairstereotype to in today's age or
(30:26):
not, I don't know.
But that's like a very feelslike a very real thing.
And Jews are always, I mean,it's like we only name each
other, we only name our kidsafter like dead people.
Yeah.
So it's almost like, yeah, likewe we love talking about the
past and who came before us andall that.
So it's this, it meshes reallywell when you have someone who's
(30:47):
dealing with the passing of hislate wife that he can't really
deal with.
Then the kids who are Americando want to deal with it.
That's really interesting.
Was his late wife British or washis late wife American?
She is American.
Okay.
unknown (31:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (31:03):
I want to circle back to something that we talked
about like very briefly, almosttangentially, when you talked
about how great she dresses,like how great Fran dresses.
Let's dig into that a littlebit.
I think I want to talk about acouple of things in that.
One is like, I feel like you'relike the influence on you and
your fashion, but I also reallywant to talk about in terms in
(31:23):
within the layers of class andcrassness.
Like my recollection is that shedressed kind of like garish.
Like I was meant to think of heras yes.
Yes.
Yes.
And yet you're saying likefabulous.
Can we like unpack that a littlebit?
SPEAKER_01 (31:42):
Because I think I'm a little, I'm like just a few
years younger than Emily.
And Emily, you're like just afew years younger than Tracy,
not to bless everyone.
I don't think we're I'll be 50this year.
I'm happy to say it out loud.
And I'm 37.
So I was, yeah, like a childwatching this.
And so I remember as a kidthinking, like, oh, she looks,
yeah, like she looks trashy.
(32:02):
Or I meant to think she lookstrashy.
And I feel like that's kind ofthe joke sometimes is like, oh,
she looks like a hooker.
But watching it as adult, I'mlike, first of all, rockin' bod
on Fran Dresher, like she wearsa crop top a lot and like not an
ounce of fat on her.
That woman is a goddess.
I mean, like, wow.
Yeah.
And I think there's some, like,you hear about it later.
(32:24):
I think there there was likesome, like, I don't know if it
was like an eating disorder onher end, or more just like
control from her husband of likehow she looked and if she was
like thin enough and stuff.
So Oh, you mean the actress?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:35):
Actually, had some sort of disordered eating.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
I think she did.
I think her husband was like alittle controlling when they
were doing the show of like youhave to look at the floor.
Still sounds disordered.
Yeah.
But not because of her mentalstate, maybe.
Yeah.
And on the show, like she, youknow, kind of does the
traditional thing of like, I'm awoman and I eat whatever I want,
and I still emer size zero.
But very 90s thing where likeyou can have it all.
(33:01):
It was a flex.
It was a flex.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But watching the show as anadult, I'm like, she looks
amazing.
Her outfits, I think, are great.
It's all designer.
I've tried to look it up a lot.
Um, it's all designer.
And it's funny.
I think one of the episodeswhere she's responsible for like
doing the costumes in one ofMax's productions, the actor
(33:25):
that plays like her cousin,who's helping her with the
costumes, is actually like thereal designer Todd Oldham, whose
fashion she wore on the showlike a lot, which is a fun
throwback.
But she does a lot.
And I was reading about thefashion because I was like, oh,
there's a unique style.
She does a lot of like shortskirt and turtleneck with
(33:45):
tights.
A lot of tights.
And she does, or she doesturtleneck with like mini dress
a lot.
So it's like there is somecoverage, like when she's like
being the nanny and like beingaround the kids, of like, okay,
I'm wearing tights and I'mwearing a turtleneck, but it's
still a short skirt.
But then when you see her go outon a date, I've noticed even
(34:09):
then there's a lot of likethere's a short dress, but she's
still wearing tights orsomething.
So it's like, yeah, as a kid, Iwas like, oh yeah, she's
supposed to, we're supposed tothink she's dressed like a
hooker.
But I'm like, I would wear thatto a party, like a short dress
and tights, especially in theseIndiana winters.
But yeah, I realize now I do alot of like a turtleneck with
(34:30):
like a pencil skirt.
I mean, my skirts are nowherenear a short because I have a
real job.
But I realized the other day Iwas getting dressed and I was
like, I think this is like thenanny coated in my head.
But I'm like, oh, this looks sogood.
SPEAKER_03 (34:44):
So I think that's really interesting.
Like that we're meant to thinkthat she looks cheap.
Yes.
And yet it's all designer.
Like the kind of tension in thatis really interesting to me.
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
And she doesn't pretend that she's buying not
designer.
Like, there's there are severalepisodes where she's like, Oh, I
have no money.
Oh, look at my new dolce purse.
Like, it's not as bad as the Sexin the City kind of carry
wardrobe, but she is alwaysgoing to Lowman's and like
buying things like 80% off.
Uh-huh.
(35:16):
Uh-huh.
And she's always trying to get agood deal, and because she is
living on like six dollars anhour or whatever her pay was.
But she's very into like whatshe's wearing and all that.
So yeah, it's supposed to thinkI think it's like, oh, she's
dressing like slutty, and I'mputting that quotation marks,
(35:39):
but everything is like high-endat the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02 (35:42):
You know, what's interesting is it feels like she
is pushing back against, and Idon't know how old Fran Dressher
was at the time.
I'm guessing in her 30s.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
I'm guessing.
The character is in her 30s.
SPEAKER_02 (35:55):
Okay.
But it feels like, and you'dmentioned like she's like
high-end mafia wife.
Yes, high-end mob wife.
High-end mob wife.
What it feels like is the waythat she's dressing is
eye-catching.
And you're not supposed to dothat once you're a real
grown-up, once you're an adult.
(36:15):
Like eye-catching is like atbest into your mid-20s.
And that's part of what I feellike is subversive about her
character and her fashionchoices, is that she is happy to
be eye-catching, and she doesn'tthink that there is any, there's
an age limit to eye-catching.
And I think I feel like that'strue of Fran Dresha herself,
(36:37):
because you see the actress now,she still wears very
eye-catching clothing.
And then that I feel like hasmade a difference culturally.
So our great-grandmother used tosay when she would see an older
woman wearing something that ourgreat-grandmother deemed too
(36:58):
young for her, would say, muttonparading as lamb.
SPEAKER_01 (37:02):
Which I've heard that before.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
Yeah.
And like the line itself is likeI can I had found it funny at
points in my life, but I'm nowlike horrified that was
something that was passed downfor so many generations.
SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
I think that there's that's also everything about the
way Fran dresses, I agree withyou, Emily, but that it also is
a continuation of some of thethings we've already talked
about (37:31):
American versus British, right?
Alive versus dead, workingclasses versus owning classy.
Like the owning class are meantto be classy.
Like that's why we use the word.
And like classy is like modestand neutral.
Yes, which Fran is neither.
Yeah.
Although there it's she's notimmodest either, as you pointed
out, Zina.
(37:51):
She's not immodest.
Let's come back to the fact thatFran had a rock and bod.
And it turns out actually thatrockin' bod was like at least in
part the result of like not coolcontrol of someone else.
Like, let's talk.
SPEAKER_01 (38:08):
And I should say, like, I don't know, like the
real I only saw in like oneinterview.
She suffered like a really Ithink it was like her and her
husband, they I think theirhouse was broken into and there
was a sexual assault on her.
And I saw an interview with herabout that, and she talks about
after that her husband got worsein terms of like controlling.
So it was like a really horrificevent in her real life, and I
(38:31):
think it happened while the showwas still airing.
And I wish I was old enough toremember, like, well, did we
talk about how because there wasso much fat shaming like in the
90s and the 2000s, and oh yeah,it was just normal, yeah.
And I don't know how like in thepeople magazine, I don't know if
we were like, oh my god, FranDressure looks great, or if
there was any kind of like, orif it was just internal between
(38:54):
the two of them.
So I don't know the dynamic, buton the show, there is so much
fat shaming on Fran's mom, andit really that's the only thing
that kind of like bums me outwhen I re-watch it, because it's
just like it just feels mean tofor a daughter to say that to
her mom.
Oh yeah, yeah.
So that's the only thing I'mlike, that's a real person.
(39:15):
Like, that's I don't know if theactress is wearing like any
padding or like doesn't matter.
Yeah, but if the actressactually if that was her body,
it's even worse on a granderscale.
Like, oh my god, you're actuallymaking fun of like a real
person's body right now.
SPEAKER_02 (39:31):
And lots of real people who look like that, who
are watching the show, yeah,right?
Well, and I remember Sylviahaving like great style too,
because that's where Fran got itfrom.
Like, I remember like shedressed in the similar kind of
like sequins and you know,similar kind of catching where
it's like, yeah, lady, get it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
Sylvia dresses like real mob wife, and Fran is like
I said, elevated.
Yeah, Sylvia is I've beenwatching uh the Sopranos for the
first time, and I feel likeSylvia dresses like 80s
sopranos, like if the that kindof timeline of just like very of
its time, and Fran is just likea little more like, okay, well,
(40:10):
yeah, I'm gonna wear like adesigner version of Leopard
Print or something.
SPEAKER_03 (40:14):
There's another thing that we've talked at
several points, like kind oftangentially, about the fact
that this is like a Jewish show,that there's like Emily started
by saying how much Yiddish therewas in it.
Yes.
So I would love for the three ofus to like unpack a little bit.
Like you mentioned Zina, likeprobably there were actual New
York Jews in the writer's room.
(40:34):
Like it's it's real.
So I want to unpack like howmuch of this representation was
like awesome, I feel seen, andhow much was like stereotypes.
Sometimes those things are thesame, but like how much like
let's unpack the good, the bad,and the neutral from the
Jewishness of the nanny.
SPEAKER_01 (40:54):
Yeah, I mean, it feels very like the Yiddish
again.
Like, I'm I guess my family, wehad a smattering of Yiddish
phrase, like Masuga, like a verybasic level.
But I watched the nanny and I'mlike, I don't know what a haza
is, but I I guess I know now.
Or like, if someone had put agun to my head and said, What
does Yenta mean?
(41:15):
I don't know if I could havegotten like the full definition.
So it's almost been like aneducation in some ways of like,
oh, I'm learning like Yiddishphrases, like that's cool.
And the I think that's where itfeels very Jewish because I'm
like, you can't fake this.
You can't, yeah.
And back then, like you couldn'thave Googled, like, what are
some key Jewish phrases I shouldput in here and how I like
(41:36):
there's like a way to use themthat feels authentic.
SPEAKER_03 (41:39):
Right, right.
And especially if it's not justlike Mazletov or Schmuck, which
are the ones that have made itinto the American lexicon.
Yeah, cool.
Okay.
So that feels like in the goodcolumn.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Yeah, and there's this really funny line.
I think it's in the pilot whereFran comes to the door and she's
in the house and she goes, Oh, Ilove your tchotchkis.
And Maxwell says, Excuse me?
And he's like, My what now?
And I legit, like my husband andI had a uh disagreement once
because I said tchotchki, andhe's like, That's a Yiddish
(42:11):
word.
And I was like, No, it's not.
And he was like, Yes, it is, andhe's not Jewish.
And I was like, It's not aYiddish word, it's a regular
word.
And we looked it up and I waslike, It's Yiddish.
I've I was just like, doeseveryone not know what a
tchotchki?
SPEAKER_03 (42:22):
Yeah, she thought it was just the word for knick
knack that everybody says,right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:25):
Yeah, so that I think is good and fun, and I
think Yiddish is like a veryit's like people don't realize
like where it came from and howit's so important, but I think
in so the stereotype is Franna'slike always trying to find
things on sale, and that is astereotype.
And I think in the show you see,like she doesn't come from
(42:47):
money, like her parents are verylike I would say maybe like
lower middle class, like theylive in Queens, they don't live
in Manhattan.
I feel like that's a hugedistinction, even back in the
90s.
Like her grandmother lives in ahome, she's living on a fixed
income, like all of that feelsvery real.
So it makes sense that she'sshopping like on discount and
(43:08):
trying to get like if she'sbuying a designer dress, she's
not going to like the Guccistore, she's going to Loman's
and you know, fishing it out andlike fighting like 200 women to
get that same dress.
So I don't it's tough to thinkhow much of it is like hurting
the cause versus like showinglike a different side of like
Jewish culture.
SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
Yeah, it's that's an interesting particular example,
right?
Where she's like like livinginto the stereotype of always
seeking a deal.
And also we see that she's veryworking class.
So it's like for differentreasons than what we're usually
given as the stereotype of Jewslooking for a deal.
(43:50):
It's not because she's a moneyhoarder, it's because she
doesn't have money.
SPEAKER_01 (43:53):
Yeah.
And you see her on the show, sheis like always, she's always in
credit card debt, which I'mlike, but yeah, like.
Like she's always like basicallyspending her money on clothes
and all that.
So I almost like don't have aproblem with her being frugal
because it feels like, well,she's living on if not minimum
wage, then like what was like alittle above minimum wage, and
(44:16):
she's not good with money, butshe also doesn't have a lot of
it, and she's not like I keepthinking so.
Recently I I said to a friend,like, do you know what Jewish
American princess means?
And he said no.
And I was like, Okay, so that'sa phrase that like has died,
thankfully.
Maybe, yeah, maybe.
And I was thinking, like, is shethat stereotype?
(44:37):
But she's not, it's like, Idon't know how spoiled she is
because she doesn't really comefrom a lot of money.
SPEAKER_03 (44:43):
Right, right.
Yeah, it's so her frugalityalmost in this character almost
is subversive because it's notabout greed, it's actually about
I don't know, necessity, Iguess.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's an that it's aninteresting tension on the
stereotype.
Yeah.
(45:03):
Anything else going on with thissort of oh, sorry, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:07):
I'm curious about what other aspects of Jewish
culture.
Like one of my pet peeves is thefact that any time that like
Jewish holidays are mentioned inanything in media, it's
Hanukkah.
And so just curious if there'syou mentioned that they talk
about lighting the art sitelights for Mr.
Sheffield's first wife, but uh,what other aspects of like the
(45:28):
Jewish religion are mentioned?
SPEAKER_01 (45:30):
Yeah, there's this one episode, I think in one of
the later seasons, but I thinkbefore she and Max are together,
where the Fine family hasinvited the Sheffield family to
their home for a holiday.
And I wish I could remember theexact joke, but Max says
something like, Is this the onewhere we do this and then eat?
And Niall says, No, no, it's theone where we do this and then
(45:52):
eat and then get and then stuffourselves.
And I it's I think it it'ssomething like I don't think
it's Yom Kippur.
I think maybe it's like Sukkotor something, where I'm like,
again, must have had real Jewishwriters if they're talking about
Sukkot or something.
Like even talking about Yom Kifuor feels a little like, oh,
okay, like you know, we'regetting into it.
So yeah, but they still do thething of she eats pork, and
(46:17):
they're like, How do you eatpork if that's not kosher?
And she's like, Oh no, it'sokay, it's allowed.
And it feels like a real, likeuh, these are real like reform
Jews where it's like you'reskirting the rules, you know, or
well, you know, rules are aconstruct.
But it just feels like these arelike I could have grown up with
these people in some way.
SPEAKER_03 (46:37):
Yeah.
Thank you for asking thequestion, Emily.
I think that that the way you'redescribing it now, Zina, I'm
feeling like it's a positiverepresentation, like rat like
where we like what I describe,where we feel sort of seen.
Like if they're mentioningSukkot, if she's sort of, you
know, talking about the waysthat she follows some of the
rule, some of the sort oftraditions and not others.
(47:00):
Like that's very real.
That's how many Jews live inAmerica, you know, especially in
Queens, right?
Like she's not from, she's notOrthodox.
So let's actually see a realthat that sounds great, frankly.
Like, I'm I'm delighted to hearyour description of that.
That's pretty cool.
And the fact that, as Emilysaid, it's not just like, oh
(47:22):
yeah, we're gonna celebrateHanukkah because it's the Jewish
Christmas, which you know,listeners, it ain't.
That's not it.
Yeah.
So, you know, that there,there's like they're talking
about other holidays like thatactually are much more important
in the liturgical calendar.
Like, I love it.
That sounds great.
SPEAKER_01 (47:38):
Yeah, yeah.
There's always this internallike battle when when watching
the nanny, because some of thosestereotypes of how her mother
like always wants her to getmarried, is like always pushing,
like, go meet a doctor.
Or there was one episode whereshe meets a guy and she's like,
Well, I know you're not alawyer.
And he's like very blondehaired, blue-eyed.
And he goes, How do you know I'mnot a lawyer?
And she goes, Well, not in NewYork, maybe in LA.
unknown (48:01):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00 (48:04):
And that's the kind of humor I'm like, damn, like
that's right on the line.
Yeah, like would you do thatjoke now?
Like, would that fly?
SPEAKER_03 (48:13):
It's also very, I just wouldn't name this, it's
very Ashkenormative, like as ifthe only Jews are Ashkenazi
Jews.
Jews come in all colors and all,you know, like it's and always
have.
Most Americans are familiar withAshkenazi Jews, which is you
know what Emily and I are, whatI'm assuming you are, Zina, but
yes, we're not the only kind ofJews there are.
(48:35):
So yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
No, and we've known like full Jews that are
blonde-haired, like, you know,we've known red-haired Jews.
Yeah.
It's a religion.
SPEAKER_03 (48:43):
It's like Ashkenazi is an ethnicity, but Judaism is
a religion.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
No, it's it's very like putting all Jews in one
bubble.
Yeah, that joke just like cracksme up, or where she makes she
makes a joke about like wanting,she's like, Oh, I'll just meet
the doctor the old-fashionedway.
And he goes, How?
And she goes, I'll faint andtemple.
SPEAKER_00 (49:07):
That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_03 (49:09):
Yeah.
All right, we are running shorton time.
So I want to ask, is thereanything that we haven't talked
about that you wanted to makesure our listeners knew about
the nanny?
SPEAKER_01 (49:18):
I think one thing that's kind of interesting is so
in the show, her mom is alwayslike pushing her to get married
and like, you know, have kids.
And she is always talking aboutthat as well.
And then there's one point whereMax is like, I think you need to
go see a therapist and talkabout how like all you're
obsessed about is like gettingmarried, having kids.
And she does do that.
(49:40):
Like, she there's like, and it'sa very long arc, it's not like a
one episode, two episode arc,it's like almost like a
season-long or even a coupleseasons of like she's going to
this therapist and talking abouthow all she can think about is
like getting married and havingkids.
So it's interesting becausethere's a point where I'm like,
oh my god, this is soanti-feminist.
Like, all you care about is likehaving a house on Long Island
(50:02):
with your like husband and twoand 2.5 children.
But she does try to work on it,and there's a point where she
tells Max, like, okay, like ifyou don't want to do this, like
I'm out, like, I gotta leave.
So, in some ways, I feel likeit's she's trying to get better
about it.
Cause you know, it's hard as awoman watching a show like that
(50:24):
and being like, You have nocareer aspirations, like you
sometimes she thinks, like, whatam I supposed to do when these
kids get older?
What job?
Like, it's almost like shedoesn't like being a nanny, she
likes being in that house withthose kids and like them
specifically.
It's not like she's a licensedchildcare provider in any way.
(50:46):
She very much fell into this.
So it is nice being like alittle like, okay, there is a
small part of you that's like,hmm, I am a woman with other
things to do in my life besidesjust fulfill my mother's desire.
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_03 (50:59):
I think I have a feeling we're gonna get into
that a little bit in the shit weforgot to say, which is
available only for patrons.
So head over to our Patreon ifyou want to hear more about the
nanny.
But first, let me actually seeif I can reflect back some of
the things that we talked aboutin our conversation today about
the nanny, which is really wewent to a lot of places
actually.
So I'm gonna start with theplace where I think we ended
(51:21):
accidentally, which is the waysin which the nanny actually kind
of displays a juxtapositionbetween British culture and
American culture, and the waythat that plays out in this
family dynamic with that alsohas layered on top of it like
class and religion difference.
So, because we've got Mr.
Sheffield, who is British andpresumably Church of England or
(51:43):
some form of Christianity,versus Fran, who is American and
Mr.
Sheffield is also owning classversus Fran, who is working
class, Jewish from Queens.
She's so much more vibrant thanhe is, and in every way.
She's louder, her clothing islouder, her, you know, she's
(52:03):
just big personality, which weare meant to laugh at, but also
we see the ways in which she ismore alive than he is in the
metaphorical sense, which islanguage I'm borrowing from uh
Fish Called Wanda, actually,which John Cleese wrote as a
Brit.
So that's where I want to startbecause I think that was a place
that I don't know if youexpected us to go there when we
(52:26):
sat down to start talking today.
SPEAKER_01 (52:27):
I mean, it's not unexpected because Max talks
about it in several episodes.
He's like, This house was deaduntil you came in here.
He was like, You brought likelove and light and life into
this house.
And it you it's very sweet.
I feel like you kind of see howhe's like, You brought me back
from the dead, and you broughtmy kids back.
(52:48):
Like you brought you gave themlike a maternal influence, and
it really feels like there'sthis beautiful episode where she
one of the kids, the son haslike a skateboarding accident,
and she can't go see him in thehospital because she's not
family, and she dresses up as anun, classic psychiatropic to go
(53:08):
like visit, like get to be likea you know, visiting a nun.
Yeah.
And he's like, Why are you here?
and the kids say, like, she didthis because she wanted to be
here, and he's like, Oh, likeyou are family.
SPEAKER_03 (53:21):
Nice.
We spoke about fashion and howfashionable Fran is, which there
were many things layered intothe fashion.
There's the fact that like wewere supposed to think she
looked cheap, and yet it was alldesigner clothing.
She also, we know that she'slike spending a lot of money on
clothes, but she's doesn't havea lot of money, so she's seeking
out deals, which is kind of aJewish stereotype, but kind of
(53:43):
not because she's frugal, notbecause she's greedy, which
would be the stereotype, butbecause she doesn't have a lot.
And so she has to be a littlebit more savvy and careful with
her money.
We also talked about how Jewishthis show is, which in many ways
is just great representationwhere we're hearing not just
(54:04):
about Hanukkah, the JewishChristmas, but we're also
hearing about Yom Kippur andSukhot.
We're hearing about lightingYarta candles, and we're hearing
about the, you know, we'rehearing all these Yiddish words
that are used accurately, thatare not just the sort of
expected ones like Schmir orSchmuck or Mazeltav that are in
the American lexicon.
There were other Yiddish termsthat you didn't even, you didn't
(54:27):
know.
Yeah.
So that felt like positive andaccurate representation.
And I think we also heard about,we talked a bit about sort of
accurate, I think,representation of sort of what
happens to someone in thatowning class position.
So that we're not judging Mr.
Sheffield for like being out oftouch.
I mean, we are a little bit, butwe're it's in a sympathetic way
(54:49):
because that is an accuraterepresentation of someone who
has that kind of positionality,ends up interacting with others
and with his kids.
And we see him genuinely trying.
So those are the key highlightsthat I remember from our
conversation.
We are actually out of time.
So I'm gonna say thank you somuch, Zina, for being here.
(55:14):
This was a great conversation.
I was delighted to have you.
Next week, Emily, you'rebringing me your deep thoughts
on what dreams may come.
Awesome.
Look forward to hearing from youthen.
And listeners, head over to ourPatreon if you want to hear
more, because we have more tosay about the nanny.
So we're gonna hit end and thenhit begin again.
(55:36):
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(55:59):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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