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With friends like these, who needs enemas?
This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Tracie revisits the star-studded yet mostly forgotten 1994 comedy The Road to Wellville. Set at the turn of the 20th century, this film offers cultural commentary on the bonkers health crazes that gave us breakfast cereal as health food, opium as an all-purpose panacea, and the idea that an erection was a flagpole on the grave. And yet, the psychology of John Harvey Kellogg, as played by Anthony Hopkins with prosthetic teeth, shows that he was no snake-oil salesman, even if he was overly invested in his patients' bowels and genitals. He truly believed that his regimen of roughage, calisthenics, enemas, and never ever ever touching yourself would improve your physical and mental health. And there's a great deal of comedy to be found in the bodily functions that result from his methods, if farts, poop, and masturbation are your sort of humor. (Emily feels no nostalgia for the experience of watching this comedy with her father and hoping for a sinkhole to release her from her nearly fatal level of embarrassment.)
That said, the Guy sisters enjoy a fascinating conversation about women and sex, health as a business, neurodivergence, and whether it's pronounced sanitAIRium or santORium.
We promise that no one has ever died listening to our podcast. So you can feel confident about throwing on your headphones to listen in!
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deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, comedy, pop culture, movies, film, psychology, mental health, women, nostalgia, 80s and 90s movies, cultural commentary, analyzing film tropes, comedy podcast, cult classic, feminism, film analysis, storytelling, matthew broderick, anthony hopkins, bridget fonda
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
And at first he's talking, you're like, oh, the
two different tubs of water forhis feet's kind of weird, but he
sounds like he knows what he'stalking about.
But then he says, the one of thereporters asks about sex, and he
says, like, no sex, no sex.
He says something like, I don'tknow if he says it at that
moment, but he definitely says,an erection is a flagpole on
(00:21):
your grave.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
(00:43):
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode of thepodcast, I'll be sharing my deep
thoughts about the 1994 film TheRoad to Wellville with my
sister, Emily Guy Birken, andwith you.
(01:04):
Let's dive in.
Okay, I know you've seen thismovie because we briefly talked
about it before we hit record,but tell me what is in your head
about The Road to Wellville?
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
That it was an extremely uncomfortable film to
watch with our dad.
I remember that Bridget Fondaand another character, another
actress being masturbated by amale doctor to handle their
hysteria, if I remembercorrectly, was something like
(01:35):
that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
No, there's nothing about hysteria in it.
No.
Okay.
You you remember accurately thatthey were being, it was um
Cameron Manheim is the actress,and she does an amazing job.
I know Cameron McCranehill.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
But they're not hysterical.
It's not just hysterical.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Okay.
I just remember that that sceneand wishing, like wondering why
sinkholes don't happen when youwant to spontaneously.
Yes.
So I remember that because wewere in the living room in dad's
house and going like, oh dearGod, why are we watching?
Oh, on Olmsted?
Is that where we were?
(02:14):
Yeah, we're on Olmstead Road.
So that's what I remember.
And then I remember the very endof the film where Kellogg, whose
first name I don't remember,saying something along the lines
of, and I don't think he usedthis word because it was would
not have been in character, butlike my shit is enormous, and I
(02:38):
believe I will live foreverbefore jumping into like a lake
or a pond or something and dyingbefore he hits the water.
And that being kind of funny.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Yeah, you're close.
I think his words were my bowelsare impeccable, and I may just
live forever.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Yeah.
So, and the thing is, I knowthat I think historically I
might be conflating two things,but like graham crackers and
then like Kellogg's cornflakes,and I think these other things
were created partially to bebland because it was thought
(03:22):
that that would discouragemasturbation.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
I mean, they don't go into that in this film.
I don't think you're wrong, butthey don't go into those things
in this film.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
So that's just an aspect of like just trivia.
I haven't I know I know that'strue about graham crackers.
I know that, but I can'tremember if that's related to
Kellogg or a different healthguru from around that point in
time.
But and the idea, like all ofthe weird alterna health shit
from that time, a lot of it hadto do with discouraging touching
(03:59):
yourself.
Yeah.
Which is why it was so weirdthat then, like there was also a
side business in likemasturbating women.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
Oh, that was an alternative.
That was not someone who was inthis movie.
That is actually a rival who isnot sanctioned by Kellogg
whatsoever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
So but that was a different, yeah.
There's anyway.
That's what's in my head aboutit.
I have not revisited it.
I think I've talked about howit's I don't, I as a writer, I
don't write spicy scenes justbecause, you know, the idea of
dad reading it, even though he'sbeen gone for nearly 13 years,
(04:42):
but just the idea of dad readingit, the level of embarrassment
would be large enough that itcould destroy the earth.
So, which is why I've never seenthis movie again.
I mean, I was what, 15 when itcame out?
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
94, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So it is more than 30 yearspast, and I still just like I'm
blushing just thinking about it.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
So it came up in conversation recently with one
of my partners, actually, and Iwas like, oh yeah, I remember
that film.
That was a weird film.
Maybe I should rewatch thatfilm.
So that's why we're talkingabout it now.
All I remember is thinking itwas funny.
I didn't even remember havingwatched it with dad.
Maybe I would have resisted if Ihad remembered that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
But the three years between 15 and 18 is pretty big.
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
Yeah, true.
So there's not a whole lot atstake.
This was just one of thosethings where I was like, oh
yeah, I'm gonna put that on thelist.
And that was like right beforewe did our scheduling last time
we did our scheduling.
So here we are.
Sometimes it works out that way.
So there's not a whole lot atstake.
It's just a thing that I, youknow, remember from that time
right at the end of high school,the beginning of college.
(05:58):
And I thought, like, let's seewhat this is about.
The things that I rememberedmost were actually the estranged
son like hanging his coat upover and over and over again,
and then finally being told hecould stop and just dropping it,
even though he had hung it uplike hundreds of times, and the
masturbation scene or themasturbating the women scene.
(06:19):
Those are the two things Iremember the most.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
But anyway, is there a word for that when someone
does it to someone else?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Manipulation?
Literal manipulation?
Yeah, I'm fingering.
I don't know.
Anyway, all right.
So let me give you somepostcards from the destination.
Folks don't have a whole lot tosay about this film.
Like, usually when I Google afilm this old, like there have
(06:48):
been retrospectives, like thethings that show up on our list
anyway.
They're like such and such movie20 years later or 30 years
later, or whatever.
Like, most of what I found wascontemporaneous.
Like, people are not talkingabout this movie, which is sort
of interesting.
But here's some postcards.
So, this film, so many poopjokes, fart jokes, masturbation
(07:09):
jokes, like if that's yourthing, like this is your movie.
Like, if you like scatologicalhumor, like you should go
rewatch this movie.
Cause and like there's a lot, alot of boobies.
A lot of these actressesactually have their breasts
visible and a lot of male tush,like so many male tushies.
(07:30):
So I don't know if that's yourthing.
Again, this is your movie.
So I want to talk a bit aboutsexuality as it's presented in
this movie, male versus female,and some of the like anxiety and
like anti-sex messages in thismovie about those two, which is
(07:51):
a little unusual.
Like, usually from society writlarge, like we're very careful
to police female sexuality, andmen were largely like atta boy.
And that's not what happens inthis film.
So I want to talk about thatrole reversal a little bit.
I want to talk about likemessages about capitalism and
specifically like health-basedcapitalism, like health as
(08:14):
business that come through thismovie, which I think will lead
into the other thing I want totalk about, which is like why
it's set at the turn of the 20thcentury, like why mid-90s this
turn of the 20th century thingwas appealing to enough people
to get this movie Greenlit andthis all-star cast, which I
(08:35):
think is relevant.
So those are the kind ofpostcards.
So let me see if I can.
I'm not gonna try and do like ablow-by-blow because the
director whose name was AlanParker was like very much in
love with sort of parallelingdifferent things, like, oh,
look, this thing is happening.
This thing's happening at thesame time, and it's kind of
(08:56):
similar.
See how it's kind of similar?
Yes, I see how it's kind ofsimilar.
Thank you, Alan.
So I'm not gonna try and likelay that out, but I'll try and
like sketch the actual action ofthe film, which happens that
there's a couple of stories thatend up kind of getting braided
together.
So this is all about thesanatori sanitarium, sanatorium,
(09:19):
what's the sanatorium in BattleCreek, which was run by Dr.
John.
Michigan, right?
I assume so.
Is there another Battle Creek?
I just my geography is real bad.
It's my downfall.
I'm a smart person.
Except for geography.
(09:40):
Battle Creek in some state.
So there's a sand, they call itthe sand, Battle Creek Sand,
that Dr.
John Harvey Kellogg runs.
Now, Battle Creek is also, welearned very early in the movie,
like the breakfast cerealcapital of the United States,
where there are over a hundreddifferent breakfast cereals
(10:00):
being produced in Battle Creekalone.
So Kellogg's cornflakes are notthe only ones.
And Dr.
Kellogg has a brother who hasapparently lent his Kellogg name
to a separate cornflake, which Ithink might be the one that we
eat now, because I feel likethat's William, isn't it?
And this was John Harvey.
Anyway, irrelevant.
(10:22):
So we meet Dr.
Kellogg immediately, and he'sdoing exercise on this rotating
platform and talking toreporters.
So he's like pulling downalternating arms on these
pulleys.
His feet are in two separatetubs, and he's talking.
This is Anthony Hopkins wearingbuck teeth and like a mustache.
(10:44):
It's bizarre.
But he's, and at first he'stalking, you're like, oh, the
two different tubs of water forhis feet's kind of weird, but he
sounds like he knows what he'stalking about.
But then he says, the one of thereporters asks about sex, and he
says, like, no sex, no sex.
He says something like, I don'tknow if he says it at that
moment, but he definitely says,an erection is a flagpole on
(11:08):
your grave.
So it is made very clear fromthis very opening scene that he
likes a lot of roughage.
He believes in lots of poop,like people should be pooping a
lot more than they are, and nosex whatsoever.
Also, no meat.
(11:29):
And so we're seeing like sort ofalmost like b-roll from around
this sand where there are peoplein this turn of the 20th century
dress, like jogging and doingsort of calisthenics, like arms
out, like touching one foot, onefoot and then the other with
their arms out, and like thisweird rhythmic laughing to it's
(11:52):
bizarre.
In the midst of this, we meet acouple who are on their way to
the sand to the sand.
So it's Matthew Broderick andBridget Fonda as William and
Eleanor Lightbody.
Eleanor has been there before,William has not, and we see
immediately that he is unwell.
He has digestive issues.
They meet on the train, CharlesOsining, played by John Cusack.
(12:17):
Apparently, the guy girls are ona Cusack streak right now.
It's not a bad streak to be on.
So Ossening is on his way toBattle Creek because he actually
is uh, we learn when he meetsthis couple on the train, he is
starting a business.
They're gonna make cornflakes.
Perfo corn flakes, P-E-R-H-F-Ocorn flakes.
(12:42):
He has, and so we learn laterhe's got seed money from his
aunt, and he has a partner, abusiness partner, who's supposed
to be who's supposed to havebeen like establishing, like
spending the capital to like buya factory and get workers to
like make this breakfast cereal.
And the partner who is played byMichael Lerner, his name's Mr.
(13:07):
Bender, has we can see that hehas completely, he's just
squandered it, but he manages toconvince QSAC's character that
it's fine and they're gonna makethis work and you know they're
gonna find another investor andwhatever.
So the light bodies get to thesand, and like it's real weird
(13:29):
there.
They get separated immediately,but not into separate sex wings
because across the hall from Mr.
Light Body is Ida Munts playedby Lara Flynn Boyle wearing like
very pale makeup with a greenishtinge.
And we learn immediately thatlike enemas are a big part of
(13:51):
the treatment at the sand.
So we see a scene fairly earlyon that I'm sure was very
uncomfortable for us sitting indad's living room, where Matthew
Broderick's character is beinggiven an enema somewhat forcibly
by a very attractive nurse.
And she's like saying how, youknow, you shouldn't like
(14:13):
something she's repeating thething that Kellogg said about
sex being off limits in a muchmore poetic way than I'm gonna
remember.
And he was like, I'm havingsexual feelings.
I think I have an erection, likewhile she's like, anyway, it is
deeply embarrassing.
So we learn along the way thatMr.
(14:34):
Lightbody had been a drunk.
Mrs.
Lightbody had found some likesnake oil that was like liquor
be gone or something, and shewould put a drop of it in his
tea every night.
And it just made him sleep.
And it was so such a relief toher to just make him sleep.
And then she realized she waspregnant, she went to the sand
to give birth, the baby died.
(14:56):
While she was away in herconfinement, he had this bottle
analyzed, and it turns out itwas opium.
So she feels terrible becauseshe turned him into an opium
addict, which is why he's havingall of these digestive troubles
now.
He can't keep anything down.
He eats just dry toast and waterall the time, and he still we
see him vomit more than once.
(15:17):
It's what a movie.
Anyway, so lots of weird thingshappen.
Then we meet Dr.
Kellogg's estranged son, George,adopted son.
He adopted over, we hear fromGeorge that he adopted 39.
He had he has 39 brothers andsisters.
And we see memories, flashbacksof George as a young man, like
(15:43):
just not quite fitting in, likenot making eye contact,
whatever.
And like there's this extendedscene, which is the thing that I
remember from 94, where he'smeant to be maybe nine-ish, and
he keeps leaving his, like justdropping his coat on the floor.
So Dr.
Kellogg tells their nurse, maid,nanny, I don't know, like George
(16:08):
needs to go out the front door,come in the front door, walk up
the stairs, hang up his coat,take his coat back off the hook,
go back outside and do it againuntil bedtime tonight, start
tomorrow and do it till 4 p.m.
And so we watch the kid do thisseveral times.
And then we see the next day,Dr.
(16:28):
Kellog comes home and the nurse,Hannah, has fallen asleep while
George is doing this over andover and over again.
And the doctor says, I said tillfour, it's seven.
Why is he still doing it?
And she says, We try to get himto stop, he won't stop.
And then, like, whatevermontage, like now it's after
bedtime, and Dr.
(16:50):
Kellogg gets up and he likephysically stops George, holds
him by the shoulders and says,Please, please go to bed.
So George walks past him, dropsthe coat on the floor, and goes
to bed.
Like after having like hung thecoat up from coming in the house
like hundreds of times at thatpoint.
(17:10):
That's stuck in my head.
In a separate flashback, we seeGeorge like get annoyed with the
food that they're eating,because Dr.
Kellogg is a strict vegetarian.
So all the kids are eating likethis.
I don't know, it looks likeoatmeal, but like some sort of
gruel.
(17:31):
And he says, I don't rememberhow it starts, but George says,
like, you call this food.
We want real food, meat andpotatoes, meat and potatoes.
And he starts like clicking hisspoon on the bowl, meat and
potatoes, like a chant.
And all the other kids arelaughing.
And anyway, again, montage, wesee the table has been cleared,
and it's like hours later, andGeorge is still sitting at the
(17:54):
table going, meat and potatoes,like hitting his spoon against
the bowl.
SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
Now, today in the is that shown as like in the film,
is that like played for likeheartbreak?
Is that played for laughs?
Like that, because it soundsheartbreaking as you're
describing it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:11):
It's not played for laughs.
I mean, the dropping the coatwas definitely, I think, meant
to be funny, but not like laughout loud funny, just sort of
like wow.
The meat and potatoes thing isnot funny at all.
No.
And in fact, Mrs.
Kellogg is sitting on thestairs, like listening to George
continuing to do the meat andpotatoes chant when Dr.
(18:32):
Kellogg comes out and like sitsdown next to her and is like,
what did I do wrong?
Why is he like this?
I've tried to give himeverything.
And she says, maybe what you'regiving him is not what he wants.
So that that's not meant to befunny at all.
But we see that childhood memoryafter we have met George today,
(18:55):
played by Dana Carvey with likebad teeth and like drunk all the
time.
And like the first time we well,we've we meet him sort of asking
Kellogg for money and being sentaway.
And then we see Mrs.
Lightbody, Bridget Fonda, islike in one of the baths.
(19:15):
They have these like differentbaths, and she's in one of the
baths by herself and hears him,and he's like behind this
curtain, and she's like, She'snaked.
Like, we actually have seen someboobs.
So we know she's naked, and likeit's a very tense moment.
Like, we're not sure what'sgonna happen.
And in fact, she's like, Why areyou here?
And he says he's Kellogg's son,and he's there for money, and
(19:38):
also to see that he likeslooking at the naked ladies'
bodies or something like that.
So, like, it's tense, nothinguntoward happens except for for
some leering, like he doesn'tactually threaten her in any
way, although he is undressingby the time you know, workers at
the sand like interrupt him andrun him off.
(19:58):
George becomes partners with Mr.
Ottening and Mr.
Bender, John Cusack's character,John Cusack and Michael Lerner's
characters.
He becomes a partner so thatthey can be Kellogg Perfo since
he's George Kell Kellogg.
Yeah.
And we see them like trying tomake cornflakes, and it's not
(20:22):
good.
Like they're terrible.
We watch like this montage ofthem eating 22 batches that some
dude they hired who used to workfor Dr.
Kellogg, but was not a baker ora cook.
He was like worked in thestable, and like all 22 batches
are disgusting, and like noteven the pigs will eat them.
So they end up stealing Kelloggcornflakes and putting them in
(20:42):
their boxes.
That all comes to lighteventually.
Meanwhile, the things that youremember, so Mrs.
Lightbody, under the influenceof Virginia, who the Cameron
Manheim character is learningabout this alternate health guru
who actually says sex is good.
(21:05):
And, you know, we hear her,Cameron Manheim's character,
tell their the the women areriding a bike, riding bicycles,
and which is apparently frownedupon for women to ride bicycles
back home where Bridget Fondusfrom, Mrs.
Lightbody's from, and VirginiaCameron Manheim's character is
like, you know, my husband'spretty useless in the sexual
satisfaction department, whichis why I go for a bike ride once
(21:27):
a week.
They call it the bicycle smile,and I see, I feel a smile coming
on.
You go ahead.
So we see that she has like,she's under her influence.
We meet this a different doctor,badger, and then another doctor,
some a German name whose name Idon't remember, who does this
(21:48):
therapeutic massage, which isactually the clitoral
stimulation.
So she's being sort of likeradicalized around sexual.
Pleasure on that side.
And she has this great line whenshe's telling the story about
how he was a drunk, andVirginia's like, Yeah, and he
just he wanted sex all the time,didn't he?
(22:09):
And she's like, Yeah.
And they basically say it wasterrible, it was just bang,
bang, thanks.
And she says, I just want to bemore than a hole in the mattress
with a name.
And I was like, Damn, that'swow.
Okay.
While Matthew Broderick is goingthrough all these bizarre
treatments that we see many of,like being like sprayed with
(22:33):
very high pressure water andlike big loofahs, and like under
these like tents with electricblankets, and so he and Laura
Flynn Boyle's character havethis weird little flirtation
where he actually has sex withher twice, not sexy at all.
And we also see him like inthese baths where so the men are
(22:58):
sitting in baths, like justtheir sort of tush and pelvis.
Each foot is in a separate tub,and electric current is being
run through the ones that theirnethers are in.
And it's supposed to diminishsexual feelings, but it's clear
that it has the opposite effect,the way they're talking to each
other.
(23:18):
Oh my God.
But then, like the second orthird time we see them in these
baths, like something goeswrong.
And the operator and the theycall him Mr.
Unpronounceable, this Russiandude who only speaks Russian,
are both electrocuted to death.
And Matthew Broderick's like,what the hell is this place?
We're supposed to be so healthy,and like they just died.
(23:41):
Like, what like he's having avery reasonable reaction to
this.
Meanwhile, Kellogg's likesecretary has who was following
around behind him, like suddenlyhas a heart attack and keels
over.
And Kellogg's like, this is veryunprofessional.
This is very unprofessional thatyou would have a heart attack
and die at a health sanitarium,sanitarium, whatever it is.
(24:03):
And like, that's the firstmoment that we see him not like
he was a wacko before thatmoment, but I didn't think he
was like morally bankrupt beforethat moment, right?
Because he actually like kicksthe secretary's who's a man,
(24:23):
like kicks at his arm.
Very unprofessional.
unknown (24:27):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
And all of these, and then Laura Flynn Boyle's
character has died in the middleof the night.
So like Matthew Broder'scharacter is like, we're here to
get healthy, and people aredying everywhere.
It all comes to a head.
Charles Osnin, however you sayhis name, John Cusack's
character has been arrested forfraud.
(24:48):
And George, the Dana Carvey'sthe estranged son, has set fire
using fireworks to thesanitarium and it is like
exploding and burning.
So there's a fire truck, exceptit's a carriage, like drawn by
horses, coming toward the sand,while the cops with John Cusack
(25:11):
in the kind of jail wagon goingaway from the sand, and they
actually like have a collision.
So Austin gets away, and thecouple has come back together
that day.
The light bodies have come backtogether that day.
Broderick, Mr.
Lightbody, and his nurse sort ofstarted canoodling in a boat,
(25:31):
and he's like, I can't do thisbecause I love my wife.
And he like actually gets out inthe middle of the lake and walks
to the shore and ends up findingher being, you know, she's still
mostly dressed, but the doctorwho has his hands on her
genitals and Virginia's isnaked, and so is the other
doctor who's masturbating whilewatching all of this.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
I am yes, I am really understanding why this
was so uncomfortable to watchwith our dad.
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
So they've come back together, and he's like, What
the hell?
What were you doing?
He was elbow deep in you, andshe's like, You don't
understand.
I remember that line.
It makes me happy.
I feel happy.
You don't know what it's like tobe happy.
And he's like, But I am happy.
I really am.
I feel great.
And they're like, Oh, well,maybe we can go home.
(26:23):
So they come, they're likewalking back to the sand after
being reunited, and it's allbeing destroyed.
And then we hear sort of Mrs.
Lightbody tells us whathappened.
They went back to wherever theywere from.
They had four daughters.
Mr.
Austin actually gives, he hadborrowed money from Mr.
Lightbody.
He sends them a check.
I mean, the girls are theirdaughters are all grown and they
(26:46):
had not, they didn't have any atthe time.
So this is many, many yearslater, but he sends a check for
the amount of money that he hadborrowed.
And it turns out he got veryrich.
The charges were all butforgotten because of the
destruction that the sand and hegot very rich when he realized
that if you put combined sugarwater with the leaf of a cocoa
tree, that you could makesomething delicious.
(27:07):
And there's like a picture ofhim.
It's not Coca-Cola, but it'smeant to be something like that.
And then we hear like whathappened.
The sand was rebuilt, evenbetter.
And Dr.
Kellogg, then we see the scenethat you remember, where he's
like on this high dive and isabout to jump into the lake and
(27:27):
ends up dying mid-dive.
So we sort of hear what happenedto some of the key players.
So there's one scene that I'mjust gonna back up just to tell
you, because I I actuallybelieve this entire screenplay
was written for this one line.
After everybody dies, MatthewBroderick's character, Mr.
Lightbody, like kind of runsaway and ends up at this bar and
(27:51):
restaurant where he runs intoJohn Cusack's character and he
gets drunk and he eats acheeseburger and they get drunk
together and they're having areally good time.
That's when he lends him themoney.
And he says, Which he?
Broderick says, You really aremy friend.
And you know what?
With friends like these, andCusack finishes it, who needs
(28:13):
enemas?
And that, I believe, withfriends like these, who needs
enemas was the entire impetusfor this whole movie being made.
I think someone was like, wehave to make a movie so we can
say this line.
SPEAKER_02 (28:29):
So anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
There's so much more that happens.
There's so much embarrassingshit.
There are so many tushies,there's so many masturbation
jokes.
Like there's an electricmasturbation belt that Matthew
Broderick wears at one point.
There's like, there's just somuch that I just can't get into.
But that's like the gist of it.
That's the gist of it.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Considering how much dad needed to know about movies
before he'd watched them.
I'm surprised we watched thistogether.
He must not have known.
He must not have known.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
Yeah, he must not have.
Or he thought it was just aboutlike the sort of wacky health
bit.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
Well, it's he needed to know if there were any child
if there was any childendangerment.
That was the only thing heneeded to know.
And there wasn't.
There was no.
There wasn't.
SPEAKER_01 (29:14):
Yeah.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
I mean because that was the thing he couldn't handle
in movies.
SPEAKER_01 (29:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
So I think I I want to start, and like most of what
analysis I have that's actuallylike beyond like, yeah, lots of
fart jokes, lots of masturbationjokes, is about health as a
business and what can betrusted.
Right.
Because and I think there's likeit's this movie actually, I
(29:42):
think, trying to make us laugh,but also trying to be a little
bit nuanced because for surewe're meant to think Kellogg is
a wacko and a charlatan.
Yeah.
Not a charlatan.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
Because he believes it.
He genuinely believes it and helives it.
But like the whole sex thing, wefind out.
I mean, I don't know if it's tobe trusted, but someone suggests
that he had the mumps and isimpotent as a result of a
childhood illness.
And we do hear like he is hedoesn't have sex and has never
had sex.
SPEAKER_00 (30:15):
And so Which is why all of his children are adopted.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Yeah.
But if he's impotent, like his,like I've never had sex, like
well.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
So it's not a sacrifice for you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:28):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so we're I think we're meantto we're definitely meant to see
him as wacky.
Right.
But he is not trying to trickanyone.
On the other hand, we haveBender, Mr.
Bender, but what is it?
Goodlow, Goodlow Bender, playedreally deliciously by Michael
(30:51):
Lerner, who is trying to cheateveryone, including his business
partner, John Cusack's Mr.
Osining, Charles Austening.
So we have both of those in likeas kind of primary players.
And we know that there are,we've been told from the very
beginning, there are hundreds ofbreakfast cereals being produced
(31:14):
in Battle Creek alone.
So, and we hear the story of thelike liquor be gone that turned
out to be opium.
You know, and so there's thislike there's evidence of true
charlatanism, like snake oil.
Just like tell you what you wantto hear, if it'll make you buy
it, right?
(31:36):
On the other hand, MatthewBroderick's William Lightbody is
in a really bad way when we meethim, and he's better.
He genuinely gets better fromhis time at the sand.
So, and Dr.
Kellogg, wacko that he may be,genuinely believes in what he is
(31:57):
peddling.
He's not like Mr.
Bender, who knows he's sellingyou false promises.
Like, in fact, that final scenethat you remember when he dies
after saying, I may liveforever, forever, Bridget
Fonda's voiceover says he diedmid-dive, proving that even he
could be wrong.
(32:18):
So, you know, it's like there'sa tension, I think, that the
movie makers are inviting us tokind of hold that, like, yeah, a
lot of these people are lying tous just to get our money.
And also, there may be somethingtoo, at least some of it.
Like, I, you know, maybe it'slike a if it's Aesop's fable,
(32:40):
maybe it's a lesson aboutmoderation, possibly.
Maybe it's about being carefulabout who you trust and like
knowing all the pieces.
I'm not a hundred percent sure,but I think it's interesting
that these things are are heldsort of side by side.
This is not just a straight upindictment of health as a
(33:00):
business.
And it does suggest that most ofthe time it's probably, you
know, nonsense.
And I think it's interesting.
This is made in the mid-90s andset in the like late.
I think it's I based on myresearch, I think it's meant to
(33:21):
be 1907.
From the movie itself, it'sunclear.
It could be anywhere from like1895 to like 1910, just based on
like uh my in act in in preciseunderstanding of fashion, but
it's somewhere in that like turnof the 20th century range around
1900.
So I think there's somethinginteresting about sort of in the
(33:43):
mid-90s, sort of saying, like,yeah, but remember when like
breakfast cereal was considereda health food?
Like, maybe just like slow yourroll.
Quit it with the snack wells.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Because that was that was when the snackwell
cookies, everything was low fat.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Yeah, when we thought that lipids were our
enemy.
SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I want to stick with this fora minute because so there's a
podcast that I love calledMaintenance Phase that they talk
about a lot of this kind ofstuff, about like health as a
business and how oftentimes nowyou get a lot of people who are
(34:25):
charlatans, but you also havepeople who are the true
believers, and what they'reselling is not necessarily bad,
except that it's taken to thisextreme because it is the idea
that something that works for anindividual will work for
(34:47):
everyone.
When health is, and especiallywhen it comes to things like
weight loss, because that's whatmaintenance phase often talks
about is weight loss stuff.
When it comes to weight loss,bodies are so idiosyncratic.
And then you get to when youhave the true believers, you get
(35:08):
to people who cannot fathom theidea of ever being wrong about
something.
And then you get RFK pedalinganti-vax stuff and eating
carcasses off the road.
Ew.
Yeah.
But when if you're justlistening to like the base level
(35:30):
stuff that RFK Jr.
is talking about, it actuallysounds somewhat reasonable in
the same way that the base levelstuff that Kellogg was talking
about early on, which is likeplenty of roughage.
You know, we should be movingour bowels more often than we
are.
You know, like the exercise.
Exercise was important to him.
Exercise is important.
(35:51):
So RFK is saying stuff like, weneed to eat less processed
foods, we're all eating too muchsugar.
Like, what are these dyes thatwe're putting in our food?
Like, our children need to bemoving more, and like we should
be, you know, having moreprotein in our diets.
All of those sound perfectlyreasonable.
And then all of a sudden youdrop off a cliff and it's like
(36:13):
sex is bad, and you should haveenormous poops multiple times a
day.
And then you have like vaccinescause autism, and so all of a
sudden we have children dyingfrom preventable diseases.
Preventable diseases.
And like, okay, yeah, we'regonna eat dead bears that were
killed, killed in car accidents.
(36:34):
Like, what?
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's it's sortof a human nature when someone
has seen results from onespecific thing.
It's like, you know, thislisteners may not know.
I was diagnosed withfibromyalgia when I was 23, so a
long time ago.
And I went to all kinds ofdifferent people, like some
quacks, some legitimate doctors.
(36:57):
And like every new person, like,you know, the psychiatrist was
sure that he could cure, I'mputting quotes around that word,
my fibromyalgia symptoms if hecould correct my foot strike.
Right.
And, you know, I had this likewacky dentist who was sure that
he could cure, quotes, myfibromyalgia if he could correct
(37:18):
my bite, you know, like, and solike everybody who was a hammer
saw me as a nail, you know, whenin fact, like, yeah, probably
there was a there wereadjustments to my foot strike
that would help.
And probably there wereadjustments to my bite that
would help.
But like it was the actualconstellation of symptoms and
(37:42):
pathology was so much morecomplicated than any of them
were holding.
And I feel like people becomevery zealous when they have seen
results from something, right?
About anything.
And so, you know, the person wholike the weightlifter who's
(38:04):
eating all this protein andfeeling so much better and
having so much more energy andable to do more whatever, like
trying to push protein oneveryone.
Like, I don't know, yeah, maybeI could use more protein in my
diet, but that's not gonna, it'snot a silver bullet.
There's no such thing.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
And then on the other side of the equation, you
have when people, especiallywhen it comes to something like
health, when people don't feelwell, they become desperate for
a simple answer.
Oh, I I know.
That's exactly why I mean, andthat's why I'm not saying that
for you.
I'm saying that be it justbecause so, and that's why in
(38:44):
every era we have new healthgurus.
Yeah.
Because in every era we have newpeople who are primed to, who
are vulnerable to the grift,whether if they're charlatans or
primed to listen to the truebelievers because they just want
(39:05):
some relief.
Relief.
And then for people like theMatthew Broderick's character
who do feel better because, youknow, some little thing did
help.
You know, he needed to detox.
I mean, like that it might havejust been he needed some time to
detox.
And like he was like all of theother shenanigans that were
(39:26):
going on that distracted himfrom the opium addiction, you
know, like the embarrassment andthe animas and all of that.
So he wasn't that he wasdetoxing, so he felt better.
Right.
It's I think it's worthwhiletelling these stories from a
different era because it makesit easier to recognize it in our
(39:47):
era because it's divorced.
Like if you were to write, ifyou were to make a movie about
anti-vaxxers now, people wouldbe frothing at the mouth.
SPEAKER_01 (39:56):
Right.
It also helps to remember thatwe, whatever current generation,
did not invent like healthcrazes.
I think that's actually reallyhelpful because they're new
crazes, and so it seems like weinvented them.
Yes.
But, you know, I'd love to talkabout the sexuality aspect.
Yeah, I want to go there.
I want to go there.
So it's interesting that oftenin society in general and
(40:20):
Western culture in general,there's a lot of policing of
women's sexuality and less so ofmen's.
Not none, not none, but less so.
In this movie, while Mr.
Kellogg, Dr.
Kellogg, rather, is veryunhappy.
In fact, he brings Mr.
Lightbody into his office tosay, you need to see to your
wife, because she's been goingto see this charlatan who's been
(40:43):
giving her, you know,therapeutic massages or
whatever.
Like he he tells Lightbodywhat's happening and then
immediately embarrasses LightBody by showing, like, I don't
know, like 50 nurses thiselectronic masturbation belt
that he is, and reminds himagain of the erection as a
(41:04):
flagpole on your grave thing.
Male sexuality, the sin ofOnanism, is invoked several
times, is like very much like apiece of the charlatanism or
not, sorry, a piece of theevangelism of Kellogg.
Like he is like, he doesn't wantmen to have erections, and he
(41:28):
certainly doesn't want them totouch them if they get them.
And that's very important tohim, which is unusual in Western
culture.
And I think part of that, likebeing unusual, is how we know as
viewers that we can't trust 100%of what Kellogg says.
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
Yeah, I was gonna ask that.
Is that how it's like, you know,like, okay, okay, he seems okay.
Oh, no, clearly this guy is offas a rocker.
SPEAKER_01 (41:55):
Yes.
That is exactly how it happensfrom the very beginning while
he's on this rotating platformdoing the exercise, and you're
like, okay, that's weird, butlike it's 1900, so like, I don't
know, maybe.
And then he says the thing aboutsex, and you're like, oh, yep,
nope, he's in a job.
And I think that's reallyinteresting when we pull back
(42:15):
and sort of realize that likepolicing male sexuality, like,
even to the extent of like shmasturbation and like that, sort
of like an erection is aflagpole on your grave, like
that's proof that you'reunhealthy.
That's where, as the viewer,you're like, oh, this guy's a
whack job.
That's the shorthand.
(42:37):
And I think that's reallyinteresting when I sort of zoom
out.
It's like makes sense.
If instead he'd been saying,like, you know, women who want
to have pleasure during produring sex instead of just for
procreation, like they'rehysterical and we need to like
put control on that.
(42:58):
Like, at least some viewerswould be like, oh, let's hear
what he has to say.
SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
Now, I do have one question about that because
that's well, I I I don't thinkyou're wrong, especially for
like in 1994.
But isn't he that far offhistorically?
Like, isn't that historicallysomewhat accurate?
I mean, there's the there therewere the like the idea that
you'd grow hair on your palms ifyou masturbated.
(43:24):
I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
Like, we certainly were as a society like
discouraging young men frommasturbating, but I don't think
that there were many who weresuggesting that married men
should be refraining from havingsex with their runoffs.
SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (43:41):
I don't think that there were many like thought
leaders.
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
That was the part that took it from like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
He wasn't just saying the synovonism is bad.
I think a lot of people weresaying that.
Yeah.
Okay.
He was saying, like, no sexever.
Yeah.
He was actually saying thatthat's vital fluids that you
need.
Need to hold on to.
You shouldn't be like losingthat vital fluid.
So unless you want to procreate.
That's the only reason.
SPEAKER_00 (44:09):
Okay.
I was gonna say, like, what washis answer to children?
unknown (44:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
Yeah.
I think he believed he was luckyenough that he didn't have to
worry about that.
I mean, this character.
I don't know if Dr.
Kellogg actually felt that way.
I'm just saying the character inthis movie.
This is very much fictionalized.
It's based on a real character.
It is based on a real guy, butlike he didn't die that way.
He died in his sleep,apparently.
The sand did burn down, but itwas not burned down by an
estranged son.
And by 1907, when this issupposed to have taken place, it
(44:37):
had already been rebuilt.
So there are definitely likeseeds of historical accuracy in
this film, but it is not a likefully accurate biopic.
So the last thing I guess I'lljust say really quickly before I
reflect back is, you know, myquestions about this Dana
Carvey's George, and actuallyit's the child, is where I
(45:01):
really felt this way, is whetheror not he was meant to be coded
as neurodivergent.
I think the like staying on theannoying task or the task that
was given so long after mostpeople would have just gotten
bored or whatever, like read tome as perhaps hyperfixation or
(45:27):
perhaps like a form of stimming.
I don't know.
I actually am not aneurodivergent uh an expert in
neurodivergence.
And so I don't know exactly whatit is that I'm trying to like to
map from this behavior and thischaracter to a diagnosis or a
con what's the word that I wantto say?
Like a neurological reality.
(45:49):
I don't know what I'm mapping.
But watching it now versus in94, instead of just being like,
I think in 94, I was probablylike, damn, I can't weird,
right?
And now I'm like, oh, hmm.
I wonder what's happening withthis young person's brain and
like what different supportswould have had different
(46:11):
outcomes.
I mean, obviously a more likeloving approach would have had a
different outcome.
But like the other siblings, wesee them and they're not having
similar reactions.
So there's something atypicalabout George.
So I don't know where I'm goingwith this, but it's interesting
(46:32):
to see at learning plus yearslater, and the difference that
we as a society understand aboutneurodivergence, it just makes
me approach the whole characterdifferently.
So I just wanted to kind of likename that.
SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
And any response to that?
It does strike me as somethingthat would be a hyperfixation,
especially if there's shameattached to it, as as like which
would be why he kept going withthe coat activity.
And then the thing that I wasthinking was how parenting has
changed so much over the pasthundred and so many years,
(47:09):
because the idea that a fatherwould say, like, make him do
this all day and consider thatan appropriate consequence for
such a minor infraction.
And that it be that's suchcruelty, like such incredible
(47:30):
cruelty, and not anticipate thatwould have repercussions for his
relationship with his child asan adult.
And so and then also like whenjust to tie it back to like
vaccines cause autism, you know,the fact that that we wouldn't
necessarily recognize people whohave autism prior to a better
(47:52):
diagnosis, in part because, youknow, we had that kind of
parenting back then.
And so, unless someone was soneurodivergent that they were
incapable of masking and being,you know, like somewhat fitting
into society and just, you know,people being like, that guy's
(48:12):
kind of quirky, kind of weird.
Like it just, it's all part andparcel of the way that society
has changed and been become morewelcoming to people who don't
fit.
SPEAKER_01 (48:22):
Yeah.
Okay.
I have some more stuff to say.
I'm gonna save it for the shitwe forgot to say for patrons.
I actually have more to sayabout George, but I'm gonna come
back to it in our bonus content.
So right now, I'm gonna try andreflect back to you some of the
things that we said.
I didn't name this movie passesBeckdell, because we have many
(48:43):
named female characters and theytalk to each other.
It's interesting because theirconversations actually sort of
like often start with men andthen go in other places.
But at a minimum, Virginia andEleanor talk about bicycling.
So there are other examples aswell.
So I think that's I didn't saythat earlier, but it definitely
passes back Dell.
(49:04):
And also there are many momentswhere these two named characters
are talking about men.
So both are true.
Oh, one other thing too, thesort of rival guy who's like pro
sex, at one point he says toEleanor, and your glasses,
they're a crutch for your eyes.
Throw them into the fire.
That's how we know he.
That's how we know he is awacko.
(49:27):
So anyway, okay, so this moviewrote to Wellville, all-star
cast.
I mean, really remarkable cast.
Like these men and women werehousehold names even in 1994.
So, I mean, I think that'sreally worth noting.
And yet, this film, like thescript, like it just doesn't, I
don't, unless you're like again,super into like scatological
(49:52):
humor, male tushies and boobies,it just doesn't really hold up.
Now, if you're into thosethings, this is your movie.
Like you should go watch itright now if you're like super
into those three things.
But if you're not, it's likemeh.
It does have a lot ofinteresting things to make us
think about health as abusiness, to think about health
(50:14):
gurus and what we can trust fromhealth gurus and what we can't.
Because sometimes they areselling us snake oil that is
nothing.
It's water in a, you know, in avial.
It's a breakfast cereal thatthey want to tell us is a
panacea.
Or even worse, it's actuallyharmful.
Right.
And sometimes they believe inthat breakfast cereal so
(50:37):
completely that they are willingto, you know, they eat their own
dog food.
They're willing to like do thethings, they're doing all the
things, and they genuinelybelieve that they will help you.
And that doesn't mean that theywill, but it doesn't mean that
they won't either.
Like this movie is like willingto hold those competing truths
at the same time, which is, Iactually think that that is the
(51:00):
sign of a of intellect, is to beable to hold competing truths at
the same time.
So that's worth noting.
I think storytelling-wise, insort of giving that message,
it's interesting to note thatit's mid-90s when there are all
kinds of health crazes that wethought we invented at the time,
(51:22):
and we did invent the specificcraze.
But the idea of a health craze,we did not invent.
And this movie helps us to seewhen it's sort of set at the
turn of the 20th century, whenit was made at the end of the
20th century, that like everygeneration's got something, and
what like some of it's true andsome of it's not true, and
(51:44):
that's probably the case now.
So that's sort of an interestingthing to take away.
One thing that I noted is that Ithink the screenwriter, the
director, the actors were allsuper proud of with friends like
these, who needs enemas?
So that's just that's my thesisabout this film.
And then the last thing is likethere's something about
(52:06):
sexuality in this movie that,like, this movie sort of talks
about male sexuality andpolicing male sexuality in a way
that is so counter-cultural.
That's how we knew from theget-go that Dr.
Kellogg was at least a littlebit off his racker with what he
was proposing.
So, and I think like we're meantto have sympathy for these women
(52:30):
who are receiving sometimes likethe implication maybe for
Bridget Fonda, like her firstorgasm, possibly ever.
Like, we are definitely meant tohave sympathy for her.
And also, like the guys, thedoctors, I'm putting quotes
around that, who are helping herachieve them, we are meant to
judge harshly.
Like, these guys are like notokay.
(52:52):
So, again, competing multipletruths are true.
Did I forget anything?
No, just George'sneurodivergence.
SPEAKER_00 (53:01):
Yes, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Yeah.
The character of George, who inthe 90s we were just like weird.
Now I think there's a much morenuanced take on him and why he
behaved the way that he did andwhy his father's discipline and
parenting style did not work andcaused such estrangement.
Yeah.
(53:22):
Okay.
Next week, I believe we are, wehave a guest.
SPEAKER_00 (53:26):
No, right?
Oh, yes, we do.
That's right.
Next week, we do we have aguest.
We have my friend Zina Kumakwill be coming on to give us her
deep thoughts about the TV showThe Nanny.
SPEAKER_01 (53:36):
Looking forward to that.
SPEAKER_00 (53:37):
Yeah, it's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_01 (53:40):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:03):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
And at first he's talking, you're like, oh, the
two different tubs of water forhis feet's kind of weird, but he
sounds like he knows what he'stalking about.
But then he says, the one of thereporters asks about sex, and he
says, like, no sex, no sex.
He says something like, I don'tknow if he says it at that
moment, but he definitely says,an erection is a flagpole on
(00:21):
your grave.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
(00:43):
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode of thepodcast, I'll be sharing my deep
thoughts about the 1994 film TheRoad to Wellville with my
sister, Emily Guy Birken, andwith you.
(01:04):
Let's dive in.
Okay, I know you've seen thismovie because we briefly talked
about it before we hit record,but tell me what is in your head
about The Road to Wellville?
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
That it was an extremely uncomfortable film to
watch with our dad.
I remember that Bridget Fondaand another character, another
actress being masturbated by amale doctor to handle their
hysteria, if I remembercorrectly, was something like
(01:35):
that.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
No, there's nothing about hysteria in it.
No.
Okay.
You you remember accurately thatthey were being, it was um
Cameron Manheim is the actress,and she does an amazing job.
I know Cameron McCranehill.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
But they're not hysterical.
It's not just hysterical.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Okay.
I just remember that that sceneand wishing, like wondering why
sinkholes don't happen when youwant to spontaneously.
Yes.
So I remember that because wewere in the living room in dad's
house and going like, oh dearGod, why are we watching?
Oh, on Olmsted?
Is that where we were?
(02:14):
Yeah, we're on Olmstead Road.
So that's what I remember.
And then I remember the very endof the film where Kellogg, whose
first name I don't remember,saying something along the lines
of, and I don't think he usedthis word because it was would
not have been in character, butlike my shit is enormous, and I
(02:38):
believe I will live foreverbefore jumping into like a lake
or a pond or something and dyingbefore he hits the water.
And that being kind of funny.
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
Yeah, you're close.
I think his words were my bowelsare impeccable, and I may just
live forever.
SPEAKER_00 (02:59):
Yeah.
So, and the thing is, I knowthat I think historically I
might be conflating two things,but like graham crackers and
then like Kellogg's cornflakes,and I think these other things
were created partially to bebland because it was thought
(03:22):
that that would discouragemasturbation.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
I mean, they don't go into that in this film.
I don't think you're wrong, butthey don't go into those things
in this film.
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
So that's just an aspect of like just trivia.
I haven't I know I know that'strue about graham crackers.
I know that, but I can'tremember if that's related to
Kellogg or a different healthguru from around that point in
time.
But and the idea, like all ofthe weird alterna health shit
from that time, a lot of it hadto do with discouraging touching
(03:59):
yourself.
Yeah.
Which is why it was so weirdthat then, like there was also a
side business in likemasturbating women.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
Oh, that was an alternative.
That was not someone who was inthis movie.
That is actually a rival who isnot sanctioned by Kellogg
whatsoever.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
So but that was a different, yeah.
There's anyway.
That's what's in my head aboutit.
I have not revisited it.
I think I've talked about howit's I don't, I as a writer, I
don't write spicy scenes justbecause, you know, the idea of
dad reading it, even though he'sbeen gone for nearly 13 years,
(04:42):
but just the idea of dad readingit, the level of embarrassment
would be large enough that itcould destroy the earth.
So, which is why I've never seenthis movie again.
I mean, I was what, 15 when itcame out?
SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
94, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So it is more than 30 yearspast, and I still just like I'm
blushing just thinking about it.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
So it came up in conversation recently with one
of my partners, actually, and Iwas like, oh yeah, I remember
that film.
That was a weird film.
Maybe I should rewatch thatfilm.
So that's why we're talkingabout it now.
All I remember is thinking itwas funny.
I didn't even remember havingwatched it with dad.
Maybe I would have resisted if Ihad remembered that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
But the three years between 15 and 18 is pretty big.
SPEAKER_01 (05:37):
Yeah, true.
So there's not a whole lot atstake.
This was just one of thosethings where I was like, oh
yeah, I'm gonna put that on thelist.
And that was like right beforewe did our scheduling last time
we did our scheduling.
So here we are.
Sometimes it works out that way.
So there's not a whole lot atstake.
It's just a thing that I, youknow, remember from that time
right at the end of high school,the beginning of college.
(05:58):
And I thought, like, let's seewhat this is about.
The things that I rememberedmost were actually the estranged
son like hanging his coat upover and over and over again,
and then finally being told hecould stop and just dropping it,
even though he had hung it uplike hundreds of times, and the
masturbation scene or themasturbating the women scene.
(06:19):
Those are the two things Iremember the most.
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
But anyway, is there a word for that when someone
does it to someone else?
SPEAKER_01 (06:26):
Manipulation?
Literal manipulation?
Yeah, I'm fingering.
I don't know.
Anyway, all right.
So let me give you somepostcards from the destination.
Folks don't have a whole lot tosay about this film.
Like, usually when I Google afilm this old, like there have
(06:48):
been retrospectives, like thethings that show up on our list
anyway.
They're like such and such movie20 years later or 30 years
later, or whatever.
Like, most of what I found wascontemporaneous.
Like, people are not talkingabout this movie, which is sort
of interesting.
But here's some postcards.
So, this film, so many poopjokes, fart jokes, masturbation
(07:09):
jokes, like if that's yourthing, like this is your movie.
Like, if you like scatologicalhumor, like you should go
rewatch this movie.
Cause and like there's a lot, alot of boobies.
A lot of these actressesactually have their breasts
visible and a lot of male tush,like so many male tushies.
(07:30):
So I don't know if that's yourthing.
Again, this is your movie.
So I want to talk a bit aboutsexuality as it's presented in
this movie, male versus female,and some of the like anxiety and
like anti-sex messages in thismovie about those two, which is
(07:51):
a little unusual.
Like, usually from society writlarge, like we're very careful
to police female sexuality, andmen were largely like atta boy.
And that's not what happens inthis film.
So I want to talk about thatrole reversal a little bit.
I want to talk about likemessages about capitalism and
specifically like health-basedcapitalism, like health as
(08:14):
business that come through thismovie, which I think will lead
into the other thing I want totalk about, which is like why
it's set at the turn of the 20thcentury, like why mid-90s this
turn of the 20th century thingwas appealing to enough people
to get this movie Greenlit andthis all-star cast, which I
(08:35):
think is relevant.
So those are the kind ofpostcards.
So let me see if I can.
I'm not gonna try and do like ablow-by-blow because the
director whose name was AlanParker was like very much in
love with sort of parallelingdifferent things, like, oh,
look, this thing is happening.
This thing's happening at thesame time, and it's kind of
(08:56):
similar.
See how it's kind of similar?
Yes, I see how it's kind ofsimilar.
Thank you, Alan.
So I'm not gonna try and likelay that out, but I'll try and
like sketch the actual action ofthe film, which happens that
there's a couple of stories thatend up kind of getting braided
together.
So this is all about thesanatori sanitarium, sanatorium,
(09:19):
what's the sanatorium in BattleCreek, which was run by Dr.
John.
Michigan, right?
I assume so.
Is there another Battle Creek?
I just my geography is real bad.
It's my downfall.
I'm a smart person.
Except for geography.
(09:40):
Battle Creek in some state.
So there's a sand, they call itthe sand, Battle Creek Sand,
that Dr.
John Harvey Kellogg runs.
Now, Battle Creek is also, welearned very early in the movie,
like the breakfast cerealcapital of the United States,
where there are over a hundreddifferent breakfast cereals
(10:00):
being produced in Battle Creekalone.
So Kellogg's cornflakes are notthe only ones.
And Dr.
Kellogg has a brother who hasapparently lent his Kellogg name
to a separate cornflake, which Ithink might be the one that we
eat now, because I feel likethat's William, isn't it?
And this was John Harvey.
Anyway, irrelevant.
(10:22):
So we meet Dr.
Kellogg immediately, and he'sdoing exercise on this rotating
platform and talking toreporters.
So he's like pulling downalternating arms on these
pulleys.
His feet are in two separatetubs, and he's talking.
This is Anthony Hopkins wearingbuck teeth and like a mustache.
(10:44):
It's bizarre.
But he's, and at first he'stalking, you're like, oh, the
two different tubs of water forhis feet's kind of weird, but he
sounds like he knows what he'stalking about.
But then he says, the one of thereporters asks about sex, and he
says, like, no sex, no sex.
He says something like, I don'tknow if he says it at that
moment, but he definitely says,an erection is a flagpole on
(11:08):
your grave.
So it is made very clear fromthis very opening scene that he
likes a lot of roughage.
He believes in lots of poop,like people should be pooping a
lot more than they are, and nosex whatsoever.
Also, no meat.
(11:29):
And so we're seeing like sort ofalmost like b-roll from around
this sand where there are peoplein this turn of the 20th century
dress, like jogging and doingsort of calisthenics, like arms
out, like touching one foot, onefoot and then the other with
their arms out, and like thisweird rhythmic laughing to it's
(11:52):
bizarre.
In the midst of this, we meet acouple who are on their way to
the sand to the sand.
So it's Matthew Broderick andBridget Fonda as William and
Eleanor Lightbody.
Eleanor has been there before,William has not, and we see
immediately that he is unwell.
He has digestive issues.
They meet on the train, CharlesOsining, played by John Cusack.
(12:17):
Apparently, the guy girls are ona Cusack streak right now.
It's not a bad streak to be on.
So Ossening is on his way toBattle Creek because he actually
is uh, we learn when he meetsthis couple on the train, he is
starting a business.
They're gonna make cornflakes.
Perfo corn flakes, P-E-R-H-F-Ocorn flakes.
(12:42):
He has, and so we learn laterhe's got seed money from his
aunt, and he has a partner, abusiness partner, who's supposed
to be who's supposed to havebeen like establishing, like
spending the capital to like buya factory and get workers to
like make this breakfast cereal.
And the partner who is played byMichael Lerner, his name's Mr.
(13:07):
Bender, has we can see that hehas completely, he's just
squandered it, but he manages toconvince QSAC's character that
it's fine and they're gonna makethis work and you know they're
gonna find another investor andwhatever.
So the light bodies get to thesand, and like it's real weird
(13:29):
there.
They get separated immediately,but not into separate sex wings
because across the hall from Mr.
Light Body is Ida Munts playedby Lara Flynn Boyle wearing like
very pale makeup with a greenishtinge.
And we learn immediately thatlike enemas are a big part of
(13:51):
the treatment at the sand.
So we see a scene fairly earlyon that I'm sure was very
uncomfortable for us sitting indad's living room, where Matthew
Broderick's character is beinggiven an enema somewhat forcibly
by a very attractive nurse.
And she's like saying how, youknow, you shouldn't like
(14:13):
something she's repeating thething that Kellogg said about
sex being off limits in a muchmore poetic way than I'm gonna
remember.
And he was like, I'm havingsexual feelings.
I think I have an erection, likewhile she's like, anyway, it is
deeply embarrassing.
So we learn along the way thatMr.
(14:34):
Lightbody had been a drunk.
Mrs.
Lightbody had found some likesnake oil that was like liquor
be gone or something, and shewould put a drop of it in his
tea every night.
And it just made him sleep.
And it was so such a relief toher to just make him sleep.
And then she realized she waspregnant, she went to the sand
to give birth, the baby died.
(14:56):
While she was away in herconfinement, he had this bottle
analyzed, and it turns out itwas opium.
So she feels terrible becauseshe turned him into an opium
addict, which is why he's havingall of these digestive troubles
now.
He can't keep anything down.
He eats just dry toast and waterall the time, and he still we
see him vomit more than once.
(15:17):
It's what a movie.
Anyway, so lots of weird thingshappen.
Then we meet Dr.
Kellogg's estranged son, George,adopted son.
He adopted over, we hear fromGeorge that he adopted 39.
He had he has 39 brothers andsisters.
And we see memories, flashbacksof George as a young man, like
(15:43):
just not quite fitting in, likenot making eye contact,
whatever.
And like there's this extendedscene, which is the thing that I
remember from 94, where he'smeant to be maybe nine-ish, and
he keeps leaving his, like justdropping his coat on the floor.
So Dr.
Kellogg tells their nurse, maid,nanny, I don't know, like George
(16:08):
needs to go out the front door,come in the front door, walk up
the stairs, hang up his coat,take his coat back off the hook,
go back outside and do it againuntil bedtime tonight, start
tomorrow and do it till 4 p.m.
And so we watch the kid do thisseveral times.
And then we see the next day,Dr.
(16:28):
Kellog comes home and the nurse,Hannah, has fallen asleep while
George is doing this over andover and over again.
And the doctor says, I said tillfour, it's seven.
Why is he still doing it?
And she says, We try to get himto stop, he won't stop.
And then, like, whatevermontage, like now it's after
bedtime, and Dr.
(16:50):
Kellogg gets up and he likephysically stops George, holds
him by the shoulders and says,Please, please go to bed.
So George walks past him, dropsthe coat on the floor, and goes
to bed.
Like after having like hung thecoat up from coming in the house
like hundreds of times at thatpoint.
(17:10):
That's stuck in my head.
In a separate flashback, we seeGeorge like get annoyed with the
food that they're eating,because Dr.
Kellogg is a strict vegetarian.
So all the kids are eating likethis.
I don't know, it looks likeoatmeal, but like some sort of
gruel.
(17:31):
And he says, I don't rememberhow it starts, but George says,
like, you call this food.
We want real food, meat andpotatoes, meat and potatoes.
And he starts like clicking hisspoon on the bowl, meat and
potatoes, like a chant.
And all the other kids arelaughing.
And anyway, again, montage, wesee the table has been cleared,
and it's like hours later, andGeorge is still sitting at the
(17:54):
table going, meat and potatoes,like hitting his spoon against
the bowl.
SPEAKER_00 (17:58):
Now, today in the is that shown as like in the film,
is that like played for likeheartbreak?
Is that played for laughs?
Like that, because it soundsheartbreaking as you're
describing it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:11):
It's not played for laughs.
I mean, the dropping the coatwas definitely, I think, meant
to be funny, but not like laughout loud funny, just sort of
like wow.
The meat and potatoes thing isnot funny at all.
No.
And in fact, Mrs.
Kellogg is sitting on thestairs, like listening to George
continuing to do the meat andpotatoes chant when Dr.
(18:32):
Kellogg comes out and like sitsdown next to her and is like,
what did I do wrong?
Why is he like this?
I've tried to give himeverything.
And she says, maybe what you'regiving him is not what he wants.
So that that's not meant to befunny at all.
But we see that childhood memoryafter we have met George today,
(18:55):
played by Dana Carvey with likebad teeth and like drunk all the
time.
And like the first time we well,we've we meet him sort of asking
Kellogg for money and being sentaway.
And then we see Mrs.
Lightbody, Bridget Fonda, islike in one of the baths.
(19:15):
They have these like differentbaths, and she's in one of the
baths by herself and hears him,and he's like behind this
curtain, and she's like, She'snaked.
Like, we actually have seen someboobs.
So we know she's naked, and likeit's a very tense moment.
Like, we're not sure what'sgonna happen.
And in fact, she's like, Why areyou here?
And he says he's Kellogg's son,and he's there for money, and
(19:38):
also to see that he likeslooking at the naked ladies'
bodies or something like that.
So, like, it's tense, nothinguntoward happens except for for
some leering, like he doesn'tactually threaten her in any
way, although he is undressingby the time you know, workers at
the sand like interrupt him andrun him off.
(19:58):
George becomes partners with Mr.
Ottening and Mr.
Bender, John Cusack's character,John Cusack and Michael Lerner's
characters.
He becomes a partner so thatthey can be Kellogg Perfo since
he's George Kell Kellogg.
Yeah.
And we see them like trying tomake cornflakes, and it's not
(20:22):
good.
Like they're terrible.
We watch like this montage ofthem eating 22 batches that some
dude they hired who used to workfor Dr.
Kellogg, but was not a baker ora cook.
He was like worked in thestable, and like all 22 batches
are disgusting, and like noteven the pigs will eat them.
So they end up stealing Kelloggcornflakes and putting them in
(20:42):
their boxes.
That all comes to lighteventually.
Meanwhile, the things that youremember, so Mrs.
Lightbody, under the influenceof Virginia, who the Cameron
Manheim character is learningabout this alternate health guru
who actually says sex is good.
(21:05):
And, you know, we hear her,Cameron Manheim's character,
tell their the the women areriding a bike, riding bicycles,
and which is apparently frownedupon for women to ride bicycles
back home where Bridget Fondusfrom, Mrs.
Lightbody's from, and VirginiaCameron Manheim's character is
like, you know, my husband'spretty useless in the sexual
satisfaction department, whichis why I go for a bike ride once
(21:27):
a week.
They call it the bicycle smile,and I see, I feel a smile coming
on.
You go ahead.
So we see that she has like,she's under her influence.
We meet this a different doctor,badger, and then another doctor,
some a German name whose name Idon't remember, who does this
(21:48):
therapeutic massage, which isactually the clitoral
stimulation.
So she's being sort of likeradicalized around sexual.
Pleasure on that side.
And she has this great line whenshe's telling the story about
how he was a drunk, andVirginia's like, Yeah, and he
just he wanted sex all the time,didn't he?
(22:09):
And she's like, Yeah.
And they basically say it wasterrible, it was just bang,
bang, thanks.
And she says, I just want to bemore than a hole in the mattress
with a name.
And I was like, Damn, that'swow.
Okay.
While Matthew Broderick is goingthrough all these bizarre
treatments that we see many of,like being like sprayed with
(22:33):
very high pressure water andlike big loofahs, and like under
these like tents with electricblankets, and so he and Laura
Flynn Boyle's character havethis weird little flirtation
where he actually has sex withher twice, not sexy at all.
And we also see him like inthese baths where so the men are
(22:58):
sitting in baths, like justtheir sort of tush and pelvis.
Each foot is in a separate tub,and electric current is being
run through the ones that theirnethers are in.
And it's supposed to diminishsexual feelings, but it's clear
that it has the opposite effect,the way they're talking to each
other.
(23:18):
Oh my God.
But then, like the second orthird time we see them in these
baths, like something goeswrong.
And the operator and the theycall him Mr.
Unpronounceable, this Russiandude who only speaks Russian,
are both electrocuted to death.
And Matthew Broderick's like,what the hell is this place?
We're supposed to be so healthy,and like they just died.
(23:41):
Like, what like he's having avery reasonable reaction to
this.
Meanwhile, Kellogg's likesecretary has who was following
around behind him, like suddenlyhas a heart attack and keels
over.
And Kellogg's like, this is veryunprofessional.
This is very unprofessional thatyou would have a heart attack
and die at a health sanitarium,sanitarium, whatever it is.
(24:03):
And like, that's the firstmoment that we see him not like
he was a wacko before thatmoment, but I didn't think he
was like morally bankrupt beforethat moment, right?
Because he actually like kicksthe secretary's who's a man,
(24:23):
like kicks at his arm.
Very unprofessional.
unknown (24:27):
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
And all of these, and then Laura Flynn Boyle's
character has died in the middleof the night.
So like Matthew Broder'scharacter is like, we're here to
get healthy, and people aredying everywhere.
It all comes to a head.
Charles Osnin, however you sayhis name, John Cusack's
character has been arrested forfraud.
(24:48):
And George, the Dana Carvey'sthe estranged son, has set fire
using fireworks to thesanitarium and it is like
exploding and burning.
So there's a fire truck, exceptit's a carriage, like drawn by
horses, coming toward the sand,while the cops with John Cusack
(25:11):
in the kind of jail wagon goingaway from the sand, and they
actually like have a collision.
So Austin gets away, and thecouple has come back together
that day.
The light bodies have come backtogether that day.
Broderick, Mr.
Lightbody, and his nurse sort ofstarted canoodling in a boat,
(25:31):
and he's like, I can't do thisbecause I love my wife.
And he like actually gets out inthe middle of the lake and walks
to the shore and ends up findingher being, you know, she's still
mostly dressed, but the doctorwho has his hands on her
genitals and Virginia's isnaked, and so is the other
doctor who's masturbating whilewatching all of this.
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
I am yes, I am really understanding why this
was so uncomfortable to watchwith our dad.
SPEAKER_01 (26:00):
So they've come back together, and he's like, What
the hell?
What were you doing?
He was elbow deep in you, andshe's like, You don't
understand.
I remember that line.
It makes me happy.
I feel happy.
You don't know what it's like tobe happy.
And he's like, But I am happy.
I really am.
I feel great.
And they're like, Oh, well,maybe we can go home.
(26:23):
So they come, they're likewalking back to the sand after
being reunited, and it's allbeing destroyed.
And then we hear sort of Mrs.
Lightbody tells us whathappened.
They went back to wherever theywere from.
They had four daughters.
Mr.
Austin actually gives, he hadborrowed money from Mr.
Lightbody.
He sends them a check.
I mean, the girls are theirdaughters are all grown and they
(26:46):
had not, they didn't have any atthe time.
So this is many, many yearslater, but he sends a check for
the amount of money that he hadborrowed.
And it turns out he got veryrich.
The charges were all butforgotten because of the
destruction that the sand and hegot very rich when he realized
that if you put combined sugarwater with the leaf of a cocoa
tree, that you could makesomething delicious.
(27:07):
And there's like a picture ofhim.
It's not Coca-Cola, but it'smeant to be something like that.
And then we hear like whathappened.
The sand was rebuilt, evenbetter.
And Dr.
Kellogg, then we see the scenethat you remember, where he's
like on this high dive and isabout to jump into the lake and
(27:27):
ends up dying mid-dive.
So we sort of hear what happenedto some of the key players.
So there's one scene that I'mjust gonna back up just to tell
you, because I I actuallybelieve this entire screenplay
was written for this one line.
After everybody dies, MatthewBroderick's character, Mr.
Lightbody, like kind of runsaway and ends up at this bar and
(27:51):
restaurant where he runs intoJohn Cusack's character and he
gets drunk and he eats acheeseburger and they get drunk
together and they're having areally good time.
That's when he lends him themoney.
And he says, Which he?
Broderick says, You really aremy friend.
And you know what?
With friends like these, andCusack finishes it, who needs
(28:13):
enemas?
And that, I believe, withfriends like these, who needs
enemas was the entire impetusfor this whole movie being made.
I think someone was like, wehave to make a movie so we can
say this line.
SPEAKER_02 (28:29):
So anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
There's so much more that happens.
There's so much embarrassingshit.
There are so many tushies,there's so many masturbation
jokes.
Like there's an electricmasturbation belt that Matthew
Broderick wears at one point.
There's like, there's just somuch that I just can't get into.
But that's like the gist of it.
That's the gist of it.
SPEAKER_00 (28:50):
Considering how much dad needed to know about movies
before he'd watched them.
I'm surprised we watched thistogether.
He must not have known.
He must not have known.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
Yeah, he must not have.
Or he thought it was just aboutlike the sort of wacky health
bit.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
Well, it's he needed to know if there were any child
if there was any childendangerment.
That was the only thing heneeded to know.
And there wasn't.
There was no.
There wasn't.
SPEAKER_01 (29:14):
Yeah.
No.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
I mean because that was the thing he couldn't handle
in movies.
SPEAKER_01 (29:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
So I think I I want to start, and like most of what
analysis I have that's actuallylike beyond like, yeah, lots of
fart jokes, lots of masturbationjokes, is about health as a
business and what can betrusted.
Right.
Because and I think there's likeit's this movie actually, I
(29:42):
think, trying to make us laugh,but also trying to be a little
bit nuanced because for surewe're meant to think Kellogg is
a wacko and a charlatan.
Yeah.
Not a charlatan.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
Because he believes it.
He genuinely believes it and helives it.
But like the whole sex thing, wefind out.
I mean, I don't know if it's tobe trusted, but someone suggests
that he had the mumps and isimpotent as a result of a
childhood illness.
And we do hear like he is hedoesn't have sex and has never
had sex.
SPEAKER_00 (30:15):
And so Which is why all of his children are adopted.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
Yeah.
But if he's impotent, like his,like I've never had sex, like
well.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
So it's not a sacrifice for you.
SPEAKER_01 (30:28):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so we're I think we're meantto we're definitely meant to see
him as wacky.
Right.
But he is not trying to trickanyone.
On the other hand, we haveBender, Mr.
Bender, but what is it?
Goodlow, Goodlow Bender, playedreally deliciously by Michael
(30:51):
Lerner, who is trying to cheateveryone, including his business
partner, John Cusack's Mr.
Osining, Charles Austening.
So we have both of those in likeas kind of primary players.
And we know that there are,we've been told from the very
beginning, there are hundreds ofbreakfast cereals being produced
(31:14):
in Battle Creek alone.
So, and we hear the story of thelike liquor be gone that turned
out to be opium.
You know, and so there's thislike there's evidence of true
charlatanism, like snake oil.
Just like tell you what you wantto hear, if it'll make you buy
it, right?
(31:36):
On the other hand, MatthewBroderick's William Lightbody is
in a really bad way when we meethim, and he's better.
He genuinely gets better fromhis time at the sand.
So, and Dr.
Kellogg, wacko that he may be,genuinely believes in what he is
(31:57):
peddling.
He's not like Mr.
Bender, who knows he's sellingyou false promises.
Like, in fact, that final scenethat you remember when he dies
after saying, I may liveforever, forever, Bridget
Fonda's voiceover says he diedmid-dive, proving that even he
could be wrong.
(32:18):
So, you know, it's like there'sa tension, I think, that the
movie makers are inviting us tokind of hold that, like, yeah, a
lot of these people are lying tous just to get our money.
And also, there may be somethingtoo, at least some of it.
Like, I, you know, maybe it'slike a if it's Aesop's fable,
(32:40):
maybe it's a lesson aboutmoderation, possibly.
Maybe it's about being carefulabout who you trust and like
knowing all the pieces.
I'm not a hundred percent sure,but I think it's interesting
that these things are are heldsort of side by side.
This is not just a straight upindictment of health as a
(33:00):
business.
And it does suggest that most ofthe time it's probably, you
know, nonsense.
And I think it's interesting.
This is made in the mid-90s andset in the like late.
I think it's I based on myresearch, I think it's meant to
(33:21):
be 1907.
From the movie itself, it'sunclear.
It could be anywhere from like1895 to like 1910, just based on
like uh my in act in in preciseunderstanding of fashion, but
it's somewhere in that like turnof the 20th century range around
1900.
So I think there's somethinginteresting about sort of in the
(33:43):
mid-90s, sort of saying, like,yeah, but remember when like
breakfast cereal was considereda health food?
Like, maybe just like slow yourroll.
Quit it with the snack wells.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Because that was that was when the snackwell
cookies, everything was low fat.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Yeah, when we thought that lipids were our
enemy.
SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I want to stick with this fora minute because so there's a
podcast that I love calledMaintenance Phase that they talk
about a lot of this kind ofstuff, about like health as a
business and how oftentimes nowyou get a lot of people who are
(34:25):
charlatans, but you also havepeople who are the true
believers, and what they'reselling is not necessarily bad,
except that it's taken to thisextreme because it is the idea
that something that works for anindividual will work for
(34:47):
everyone.
When health is, and especiallywhen it comes to things like
weight loss, because that's whatmaintenance phase often talks
about is weight loss stuff.
When it comes to weight loss,bodies are so idiosyncratic.
And then you get to when youhave the true believers, you get
(35:08):
to people who cannot fathom theidea of ever being wrong about
something.
And then you get RFK pedalinganti-vax stuff and eating
carcasses off the road.
Ew.
Yeah.
But when if you're justlistening to like the base level
(35:30):
stuff that RFK Jr.
is talking about, it actuallysounds somewhat reasonable in
the same way that the base levelstuff that Kellogg was talking
about early on, which is likeplenty of roughage.
You know, we should be movingour bowels more often than we
are.
You know, like the exercise.
Exercise was important to him.
Exercise is important.
(35:51):
So RFK is saying stuff like, weneed to eat less processed
foods, we're all eating too muchsugar.
Like, what are these dyes thatwe're putting in our food?
Like, our children need to bemoving more, and like we should
be, you know, having moreprotein in our diets.
All of those sound perfectlyreasonable.
And then all of a sudden youdrop off a cliff and it's like
(36:13):
sex is bad, and you should haveenormous poops multiple times a
day.
And then you have like vaccinescause autism, and so all of a
sudden we have children dyingfrom preventable diseases.
Preventable diseases.
And like, okay, yeah, we'regonna eat dead bears that were
killed, killed in car accidents.
(36:34):
Like, what?
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's it's sortof a human nature when someone
has seen results from onespecific thing.
It's like, you know, thislisteners may not know.
I was diagnosed withfibromyalgia when I was 23, so a
long time ago.
And I went to all kinds ofdifferent people, like some
quacks, some legitimate doctors.
(36:57):
And like every new person, like,you know, the psychiatrist was
sure that he could cure, I'mputting quotes around that word,
my fibromyalgia symptoms if hecould correct my foot strike.
Right.
And, you know, I had this likewacky dentist who was sure that
he could cure, quotes, myfibromyalgia if he could correct
(37:18):
my bite, you know, like, and solike everybody who was a hammer
saw me as a nail, you know, whenin fact, like, yeah, probably
there was a there wereadjustments to my foot strike
that would help.
And probably there wereadjustments to my bite that
would help.
But like it was the actualconstellation of symptoms and
(37:42):
pathology was so much morecomplicated than any of them
were holding.
And I feel like people becomevery zealous when they have seen
results from something, right?
About anything.
And so, you know, the person wholike the weightlifter who's
(38:04):
eating all this protein andfeeling so much better and
having so much more energy andable to do more whatever, like
trying to push protein oneveryone.
Like, I don't know, yeah, maybeI could use more protein in my
diet, but that's not gonna, it'snot a silver bullet.
There's no such thing.
SPEAKER_00 (38:21):
And then on the other side of the equation, you
have when people, especiallywhen it comes to something like
health, when people don't feelwell, they become desperate for
a simple answer.
Oh, I I know.
That's exactly why I mean, andthat's why I'm not saying that
for you.
I'm saying that be it justbecause so, and that's why in
(38:44):
every era we have new healthgurus.
Yeah.
Because in every era we have newpeople who are primed to, who
are vulnerable to the grift,whether if they're charlatans or
primed to listen to the truebelievers because they just want
(39:05):
some relief.
Relief.
And then for people like theMatthew Broderick's character
who do feel better because, youknow, some little thing did
help.
You know, he needed to detox.
I mean, like that it might havejust been he needed some time to
detox.
And like he was like all of theother shenanigans that were
(39:26):
going on that distracted himfrom the opium addiction, you
know, like the embarrassment andthe animas and all of that.
So he wasn't that he wasdetoxing, so he felt better.
Right.
It's I think it's worthwhiletelling these stories from a
different era because it makesit easier to recognize it in our
(39:47):
era because it's divorced.
Like if you were to write, ifyou were to make a movie about
anti-vaxxers now, people wouldbe frothing at the mouth.
SPEAKER_01 (39:56):
Right.
It also helps to remember thatwe, whatever current generation,
did not invent like healthcrazes.
I think that's actually reallyhelpful because they're new
crazes, and so it seems like weinvented them.
Yes.
But, you know, I'd love to talkabout the sexuality aspect.
Yeah, I want to go there.
I want to go there.
So it's interesting that oftenin society in general and
(40:20):
Western culture in general,there's a lot of policing of
women's sexuality and less so ofmen's.
Not none, not none, but less so.
In this movie, while Mr.
Kellogg, Dr.
Kellogg, rather, is veryunhappy.
In fact, he brings Mr.
Lightbody into his office tosay, you need to see to your
wife, because she's been goingto see this charlatan who's been
(40:43):
giving her, you know,therapeutic massages or
whatever.
Like he he tells Lightbodywhat's happening and then
immediately embarrasses LightBody by showing, like, I don't
know, like 50 nurses thiselectronic masturbation belt
that he is, and reminds himagain of the erection as a
(41:04):
flagpole on your grave thing.
Male sexuality, the sin ofOnanism, is invoked several
times, is like very much like apiece of the charlatanism or
not, sorry, a piece of theevangelism of Kellogg.
Like he is like, he doesn't wantmen to have erections, and he
(41:28):
certainly doesn't want them totouch them if they get them.
And that's very important tohim, which is unusual in Western
culture.
And I think part of that, likebeing unusual, is how we know as
viewers that we can't trust 100%of what Kellogg says.
SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
Yeah, I was gonna ask that.
Is that how it's like, you know,like, okay, okay, he seems okay.
Oh, no, clearly this guy is offas a rocker.
SPEAKER_01 (41:55):
Yes.
That is exactly how it happensfrom the very beginning while
he's on this rotating platformdoing the exercise, and you're
like, okay, that's weird, butlike it's 1900, so like, I don't
know, maybe.
And then he says the thing aboutsex, and you're like, oh, yep,
nope, he's in a job.
And I think that's reallyinteresting when we pull back
(42:15):
and sort of realize that likepolicing male sexuality, like,
even to the extent of like shmasturbation and like that, sort
of like an erection is aflagpole on your grave, like
that's proof that you'reunhealthy.
That's where, as the viewer,you're like, oh, this guy's a
whack job.
That's the shorthand.
(42:37):
And I think that's reallyinteresting when I sort of zoom
out.
It's like makes sense.
If instead he'd been saying,like, you know, women who want
to have pleasure during produring sex instead of just for
procreation, like they'rehysterical and we need to like
put control on that.
(42:58):
Like, at least some viewerswould be like, oh, let's hear
what he has to say.
SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
Now, I do have one question about that because
that's well, I I I don't thinkyou're wrong, especially for
like in 1994.
But isn't he that far offhistorically?
Like, isn't that historicallysomewhat accurate?
I mean, there's the there therewere the like the idea that
you'd grow hair on your palms ifyou masturbated.
(43:24):
I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
Like, we certainly were as a society like
discouraging young men frommasturbating, but I don't think
that there were many who weresuggesting that married men
should be refraining from havingsex with their runoffs.
SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (43:41):
I don't think that there were many like thought
leaders.
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
That was the part that took it from like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
He wasn't just saying the synovonism is bad.
I think a lot of people weresaying that.
Yeah.
Okay.
He was saying, like, no sexever.
Yeah.
He was actually saying thatthat's vital fluids that you
need.
Need to hold on to.
You shouldn't be like losingthat vital fluid.
So unless you want to procreate.
That's the only reason.
SPEAKER_00 (44:09):
Okay.
I was gonna say, like, what washis answer to children?
unknown (44:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
Yeah.
I think he believed he was luckyenough that he didn't have to
worry about that.
I mean, this character.
I don't know if Dr.
Kellogg actually felt that way.
I'm just saying the character inthis movie.
This is very much fictionalized.
It's based on a real character.
It is based on a real guy, butlike he didn't die that way.
He died in his sleep,apparently.
The sand did burn down, but itwas not burned down by an
estranged son.
And by 1907, when this issupposed to have taken place, it
(44:37):
had already been rebuilt.
So there are definitely likeseeds of historical accuracy in
this film, but it is not a likefully accurate biopic.
So the last thing I guess I'lljust say really quickly before I
reflect back is, you know, myquestions about this Dana
Carvey's George, and actuallyit's the child, is where I
(45:01):
really felt this way, is whetheror not he was meant to be coded
as neurodivergent.
I think the like staying on theannoying task or the task that
was given so long after mostpeople would have just gotten
bored or whatever, like read tome as perhaps hyperfixation or
(45:27):
perhaps like a form of stimming.
I don't know.
I actually am not aneurodivergent uh an expert in
neurodivergence.
And so I don't know exactly whatit is that I'm trying to like to
map from this behavior and thischaracter to a diagnosis or a
con what's the word that I wantto say?
Like a neurological reality.
(45:49):
I don't know what I'm mapping.
But watching it now versus in94, instead of just being like,
I think in 94, I was probablylike, damn, I can't weird,
right?
And now I'm like, oh, hmm.
I wonder what's happening withthis young person's brain and
like what different supportswould have had different
(46:11):
outcomes.
I mean, obviously a more likeloving approach would have had a
different outcome.
But like the other siblings, wesee them and they're not having
similar reactions.
So there's something atypicalabout George.
So I don't know where I'm goingwith this, but it's interesting
(46:32):
to see at learning plus yearslater, and the difference that
we as a society understand aboutneurodivergence, it just makes
me approach the whole characterdifferently.
So I just wanted to kind of likename that.
SPEAKER_00 (46:45):
And any response to that?
It does strike me as somethingthat would be a hyperfixation,
especially if there's shameattached to it, as as like which
would be why he kept going withthe coat activity.
And then the thing that I wasthinking was how parenting has
changed so much over the pasthundred and so many years,
(47:09):
because the idea that a fatherwould say, like, make him do
this all day and consider thatan appropriate consequence for
such a minor infraction.
And that it be that's suchcruelty, like such incredible
(47:30):
cruelty, and not anticipate thatwould have repercussions for his
relationship with his child asan adult.
And so and then also like whenjust to tie it back to like
vaccines cause autism, you know,the fact that that we wouldn't
necessarily recognize people whohave autism prior to a better
(47:52):
diagnosis, in part because, youknow, we had that kind of
parenting back then.
And so, unless someone was soneurodivergent that they were
incapable of masking and being,you know, like somewhat fitting
into society and just, you know,people being like, that guy's
(48:12):
kind of quirky, kind of weird.
Like it just, it's all part andparcel of the way that society
has changed and been become morewelcoming to people who don't
fit.
SPEAKER_01 (48:22):
Yeah.
Okay.
I have some more stuff to say.
I'm gonna save it for the shitwe forgot to say for patrons.
I actually have more to sayabout George, but I'm gonna come
back to it in our bonus content.
So right now, I'm gonna try andreflect back to you some of the
things that we said.
I didn't name this movie passesBeckdell, because we have many
(48:43):
named female characters and theytalk to each other.
It's interesting because theirconversations actually sort of
like often start with men andthen go in other places.
But at a minimum, Virginia andEleanor talk about bicycling.
So there are other examples aswell.
So I think that's I didn't saythat earlier, but it definitely
passes back Dell.
(49:04):
And also there are many momentswhere these two named characters
are talking about men.
So both are true.
Oh, one other thing too, thesort of rival guy who's like pro
sex, at one point he says toEleanor, and your glasses,
they're a crutch for your eyes.
Throw them into the fire.
That's how we know he.
That's how we know he is awacko.
(49:27):
So anyway, okay, so this moviewrote to Wellville, all-star
cast.
I mean, really remarkable cast.
Like these men and women werehousehold names even in 1994.
So, I mean, I think that'sreally worth noting.
And yet, this film, like thescript, like it just doesn't, I
don't, unless you're like again,super into like scatological
(49:52):
humor, male tushies and boobies,it just doesn't really hold up.
Now, if you're into thosethings, this is your movie.
Like you should go watch itright now if you're like super
into those three things.
But if you're not, it's likemeh.
It does have a lot ofinteresting things to make us
think about health as abusiness, to think about health
(50:14):
gurus and what we can trust fromhealth gurus and what we can't.
Because sometimes they areselling us snake oil that is
nothing.
It's water in a, you know, in avial.
It's a breakfast cereal thatthey want to tell us is a
panacea.
Or even worse, it's actuallyharmful.
Right.
And sometimes they believe inthat breakfast cereal so
(50:37):
completely that they are willingto, you know, they eat their own
dog food.
They're willing to like do thethings, they're doing all the
things, and they genuinelybelieve that they will help you.
And that doesn't mean that theywill, but it doesn't mean that
they won't either.
Like this movie is like willingto hold those competing truths
at the same time, which is, Iactually think that that is the
(51:00):
sign of a of intellect, is to beable to hold competing truths at
the same time.
So that's worth noting.
I think storytelling-wise, insort of giving that message,
it's interesting to note thatit's mid-90s when there are all
kinds of health crazes that wethought we invented at the time,
(51:22):
and we did invent the specificcraze.
But the idea of a health craze,we did not invent.
And this movie helps us to seewhen it's sort of set at the
turn of the 20th century, whenit was made at the end of the
20th century, that like everygeneration's got something, and
what like some of it's true andsome of it's not true, and
(51:44):
that's probably the case now.
So that's sort of an interestingthing to take away.
One thing that I noted is that Ithink the screenwriter, the
director, the actors were allsuper proud of with friends like
these, who needs enemas?
So that's just that's my thesisabout this film.
And then the last thing is likethere's something about
(52:06):
sexuality in this movie that,like, this movie sort of talks
about male sexuality andpolicing male sexuality in a way
that is so counter-cultural.
That's how we knew from theget-go that Dr.
Kellogg was at least a littlebit off his racker with what he
was proposing.
So, and I think like we're meantto have sympathy for these women
(52:30):
who are receiving sometimes likethe implication maybe for
Bridget Fonda, like her firstorgasm, possibly ever.
Like, we are definitely meant tohave sympathy for her.
And also, like the guys, thedoctors, I'm putting quotes
around that, who are helping herachieve them, we are meant to
judge harshly.
Like, these guys are like notokay.
(52:52):
So, again, competing multipletruths are true.
Did I forget anything?
No, just George'sneurodivergence.
SPEAKER_00 (53:01):
Yes, thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Yeah.
The character of George, who inthe 90s we were just like weird.
Now I think there's a much morenuanced take on him and why he
behaved the way that he did andwhy his father's discipline and
parenting style did not work andcaused such estrangement.
Yeah.
(53:22):
Okay.
Next week, I believe we are, wehave a guest.
SPEAKER_00 (53:26):
No, right?
Oh, yes, we do.
That's right.
Next week, we do we have aguest.
We have my friend Zina Kumakwill be coming on to give us her
deep thoughts about the TV showThe Nanny.
SPEAKER_01 (53:36):
Looking forward to that.
SPEAKER_00 (53:37):
Yeah, it's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_01 (53:40):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:03):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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