Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
"I see dead people..."
This week on Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, Emily returns to M. Night Shyamalan's 1999 masterpiece The Sixth Sense. The film was a pop culture phenomenon when it debuted, and all everyone could talk about was the last ten minutes of the plot, when Bruce Willis's Malcolm Crowe (and the audience) realizes that his situation is much different from what he had believed. And to give Shyamalan his due, this plot twist uses masterful storytelling, playing by the rules and giving the audience all the clues necessary to connect the dots.
The problem is that pop culture as a whole and Shyamalan in particular grabbed onto the idea that the twist is what made the film great, rather than the storytelling, psychology, relationships, and acting. As Emily remarks to Tracie, The Sixth Sense is a remarkable film that happens to have a twist ending, not a remarkable film because of its twist ending. The result is that a promising young director became a bit of a pop culture punchline as Shyamalan kept trying to recreate the twist rather than leaning into his remarkable storytelling and directorial abilities. Which is a damn shame.
Throw on your headphones to hear two live sister podcasters making each other laugh over this film!
Mentioned in this episode:
Roger Ebert’s review of The Sixth Sense
Tags: deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, pop culture, storytelling, psychology, mental health, film, classic movies, bruce willis, m night shyamalan, 80s and 90s movies, movies, movie reviews, haley joel osment, toni colette, analyzing film tropes, millennial nostalgia, film analysis, cultural commentary, ghost story, plot twist
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus content, live zooms with Tracie & Emily, discounts on merch, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
We are on socials! Find us on Facebook at fb.com/dtasspodcast and on Insta at instagram.com/guygirlsmedia. You can also email us at guygirlsmedia at gmail dot com. We would love to hear from you!
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Ghost stories are about the living.
SPEAKER_03 (00:02):
Ultimately, they always are.
Because the living write them.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:25):
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1999 M.
Night Shyamalan film, The SixthSense, with my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
(00:49):
Let's dive in.
Actually, before we dive in, Iwould like to ask you, listener,
if you haven't already, toplease quickly follow the
podcast on Apple or Spotify orwherever you get your pods.
It is a quick, simple, and easyand free way that you can help
(01:10):
the pod.
And we would be very gratefulfor it.
Thank you very much.
Now let's dive in.
So, Tracy, I actually don't knowif you've seen this movie.
I have.
Oh, okay.
So, what's in your head aboutit?
I see dead people.
SPEAKER_03 (01:29):
I I actually think I've seen it more than once
because I have a lot in my head.
I can remember the first timeseeing it when the big reveal
happens, like really beingshocked, which is funny because
on Rewatch, you're like, thereare so many clues along the way,
which is why I'm pretty sureI've seen it more than once.
I mean, from that moment whenthe child says, I see dead
(01:50):
people, but it was done so welland it was such an unexpected,
like not what you expect it tobe, that like I was really
shocked.
And I remember really enjoying alot of the sort of details that
then become clear in retrospect,like the fact that Bruce
Wallace's character is alwayswearing the same set of
clothing.
(02:10):
Like it varies a little bit, butit's always like that sweatshirt
and the bleed or whatever.
And the there's like a color,like the door that he can't get
in because his wife has movedsomething in front of it, but
the doorknob is like a color,right?
It's red.
And like the color red sort ofindicates things.
And I remember like when welearn, it's because she says
(02:31):
something like, Why did youleave me?
And he's like, I'm right here.
Most of what's in my head isaround Bruce Willis's character
and him kind of coming to therealization of his circumstance
and like and that, as opposed tolike the child whose name I
don't eat, I don't remembereither of their names.
(02:52):
But that's what's in my head isreally Willis's story or Bruce
Willis's character story andsort of like the way that I
thought about what would that belike to not realize that your
status has changed sosignificantly and to try to be
interacting.
Like I got kind of stuck in theempathy of that when I watched
it.
(03:12):
So that's what's in my headabout the sixth sense.
I mean, there are other likelittle like snapshots,
vignettes, like the bicycleaccident from early in the movie
and other things, but like latein the movie.
Oh, is it?
Where like his mom's like, Ihope everyone's okay, and he's
like, they're not.
So there are other little likesnapshots like that, but that's
(03:34):
like that's the core storythat's in my head.
But tell me, M, why are wetalking about the sixth sense
today?
So what's at stake for you withthis movie?
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
So I really, really loved this movie.
I unironically, just now beforewe hit record, called it a
masterpiece, and it is.
And I had warm fuzzies about M.
Night Shyamalan for longer thanhe deserved it after this.
And as we'll get to, I'll talkabout how I think he took the
(04:03):
wrong lesson from this movie.
I think he's a very talenteddirector, but all anybody talked
about was the twist with thismovie, and that is not what he
should have learned from it.
Because this is a remarkablefilm that also has a twist.
It's not a remarkable filmbecause of the twist, but the
(04:25):
twist is a gut punch in apositive way on top of a film
that without the twist stillwould have been a remarkable
film.
So I also I love ghost stories.
I have always loved ghoststories.
And so that's part of it aswell.
And I love the trope of ghostsunable to move on until they
(04:49):
have finished their finalbusiness.
So that's part of why I likethis story.
And then the idea that there'sthis second chance for someone
who failed one little boy andcan save another little boy is
another thing that really,really pulls at my heartstrings.
(05:12):
The central relationship betweenthe little boy, the character's
name is Cole Sear, and hismother, Lynn, is also another
one that I just truly felt in1999 when I was 20 seeing it.
And then watching it againyesterday.
I have not seen it sincebecoming a parent, but watching
(05:35):
it yesterday, I cry every time Isee this film, but I really
cried yesterday seeing it nowthat I am a mother of children
who are older than Cole now, butfeeling that kind of maternal
protectiveness and worry for avulnerable little boy.
It really that this is ameaningful film to me in so many
(05:58):
ways.
That's why I wanted to talkabout it.
And then also like Shyamalan, Ihate that he has become a joke.
He's become a punchline at thispoint because he has a great
deal of talent that I just feellike he he has kind of, I don't
want to say squandered, but hejust keeps trying to recreate
(06:19):
something when he could havedone so much more because he
took the wrong lesson.
So that's another aspect of it.
Like there, there's so much morehe could have done.
And he has done some veryinteresting stuff, even with
trying to recreate the twistending with this.
I still enjoy his films, even asI'm like, oh, come on, come on.
(06:46):
I still enjoy his technicalskill.
It bothers me that this is histhe peak of his career because I
think he could have done so muchmore.
That's why we're talking aboutit.
So let me give you somepostcards from the destination.
As I said, we're gonna talkabout the why Shyamalan took the
(07:06):
wrong lesson from this movie andwhat lesson he should have
taken.
I'm gonna talk about parenthoodand what good parenthood looks
like and how I feel like it's alittle subversive what Shyamalan
does with Tony Collette'scharacter and holding her up as
an exemplar of a good mother.
(07:27):
I want to talk about theabsolutely phenomenal acting,
especially from Haley JoelOsmond, who was about nine or 10
years old at the time.
I want to talk about whose storyit is and part of the reason how
that helps the twist work.
I want to talk about childhoodand the importance of believing
children.
I want to talk about the visualmetaphors that you were talking
(07:49):
about with the red ghost storiesand parentification, which I
think kind of go hand in hand.
And I want to talk about secondchances.
So those are some things thatI'm going to be mentioning.
Also gonna talk a little bitabout Philadelphia.
I forgot to mention that beforewe hit record.
This is Shyamalan is from uhPennsylvania, and he is a
(08:10):
consistently likes to film inhis home state, and there is
like a bit of a love letter towhere he is from in every film.
And there's something verysetting a ghost story in
Philadelphia is fascinating.
And those are some things that Iwant to get to.
I am just going to brieflymention this does not pass
(08:31):
Beckdell.
There are two named femalecharacters, Lynn Sear, played by
Tony Collette, who is Haley JoelOsmond's mother.
And then there is Anna Crow, whois Bruce Willis's wife, played
by Olivia Williams.
They do not ever meet each otheror interact.
Basic story.
At the very beginning, we seeAnna and Malcolm Crow.
(08:54):
Malcolm Crow is Bruce Willis'scharacter celebrating.
They're a little drunk.
He has just won an award fromthe city of Philadelphia.
He is a child psychologist whohe has received this award for
his help, his work with veryvulnerable children.
And he is being honored for howmuch he has helped children in
(09:18):
the city.
That same night, a young manbreaks into his home and has
stripped down to just hisunderwear as in the bathroom,
the ensuite bathroom in theirkind of old Philadelphia home
and says, You failed me.
And he says, Do you know whyyou're afraid when you're alone?
(09:38):
I do.
He says, You don't evenrecognize your own patient.
And it takes Malcolm a momentand he recognizes him as Vincent
Gray.
Vincent says, You said you wouldhelp me and you didn't.
You see that there is a whitestreak in his hair, even though
he is a young man.
He's like in his mid-twenties,maybe, but he he's like an aged
(10:00):
mid-20s.
He then shoots Malcolm and thenturns the gun on himself.
Camera pans and it says, thenext fall.
And Malcolm is waiting outsidean apartment.
He is taking notes on a boynamed Cole Seer, who also has a
white patch in the back of hishair.
(10:21):
And Cole is leaving hisapartment and then like runs
away.
And Malcolm has to hurry tocatch him.
And he catches up with him in achurch where Cole has a bunch of
little like army figures as wellas some religious figures.
And he is mumbling to himself inLatin.
And Malcolm comes up to him andsays, I'm sorry I missed our
(10:44):
appointments.
I was hoping that we could talkhere.
And so basically introduceshimself.
I'm Dr.
Crow.
I'm hoping to help you.
I know your parents recently gotdivorced, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
And Cole is very closed off andsays, You can't help me.
We see several things happen.
(11:05):
Cole is at home.
His mom is in the kitchen withhim.
She leaves, comes back, and allof the cabinets are open in a
way that is way too quick for itto have for him to have opened
cabinets and then sit back satback down.
His mom is looking, is doinglaundry and is looking at a wall
of pictures of Cole, and there'slike a little flash of light in
(11:27):
every single one from the timehe was a baby.
And so it's clear that he hasbeen haunted since babyhood.
Cole starts opening up to Dr.
Crow, tells him that everyonethinks he's a freak.
Don't look at me like that,because people look at him like
he's a freak.
He has a really bad day atschool where the teacher who
(11:48):
mentions that he went to schoolat the same building when he was
a kid asks, Do you know whatthis building was used for in
the 1800s or 1700s?
And Cole knows, he says theyused to hang people here.
And the teacher's like, No,that's not correct.
It was a courthouse.
They passed laws here.
And Cole starts arguing withhim.
(12:10):
It was, you know, the lawmakerswho hanged people.
And the teacher kind of looks athim a little ironically, and
that sets Cole off, who startscalling the teacher stuttering
Stanley, because that's what theother kids called him, and the
ghosts have told him that.
And the teacher loses his temperand calls him a freak.
(12:31):
And Dr.
Crow comes back, and the moviedoes a good job of showing him
to be a pretty good childpsychiatrist, psychologist.
I don't remember which he'ssupposed to be.
I think actually, I think theydo make it clear that he's a
psychologist because he's notable to prescribe by drawing him
out and, you know, making himfeel comfortable, a silly magic
(12:53):
trick and stuff like that, rightafter that incident.
Cole is at a kid's birthdayparty.
It's one where the parents arestaying, and Lynn is there too.
She does not fit in.
She is definitely lower incomethan the rest of the kids.
He appears that Cole goes to aprivate school.
And so he is going up thesestairs.
(13:13):
He follows a balloon up, andthere is a ghost in this like
room where the door is open, buthe can hear someone saying,
like, let me out.
And two other boys force him inthere and lock him in.
Lynn goes up and hears, like,hears him screaming to get out,
and she can't figure out how toopen the door.
(13:33):
They finally get him out, and heis like passed out from fright.
And so she takes him to thehospital.
And that's where Cole finallytells Dr.
Crow, that scene you remember, Isee dead people.
They don't know they're dead.
They walk around.
They can't see each other.
They just appear and they, andDr.
(13:56):
Crow at that point thinks, like,I can't help him.
He might be schizophrenic, andthat's why I think he's not a
psychiatrist, because he can'tprescribe.
He then, Dr.
Crow then goes back and listensto a recording of one of his
sessions with Vincent, where hehad to leave in the middle of it
to take a phone call, and heturns the volume all the way up
(14:18):
and he hears.
So Vincent was supposed to bealone in the middle of it, and
he hears a ghost speaking.
And so he realizes that Cole istelling the truth.
SPEAKER_03 (14:28):
There's something about cold, right?
When the ghosts are there, it'scold.
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
Yes.
Meanwhile, during all of this,since the break-in, Malcolm and
his wife just aren't talking toeach other.
He arrives late to theiranniversary dinner.
When he comes home, she has madedinner for herself.
He sees at one point that she isnow taking an antidepressants
that he didn't know about.
And uh she seems to be driftinginto an affair with someone who
(14:55):
works at the antique shop sheowns.
Dr.
Crow comes back to Cole andsuggests maybe the ghosts come
to you because you can speak tothem and they need your help.
And so there is a little girlghost who comes to him and
basically she wants him to sharea video that she made with her
(15:18):
father.
She was ill for two years andso, and like in bed for two
years.
And so her only like outlet wasshe had like puppet shows that
she would put on for herself andshe had like a video camera.
And so she accidentally caughther mother dosing her with like
pine salt because her mother haduh Munchhausen by proxy.
(15:39):
And so she has video footage ofthis, and so he's able to give
that to the father.
Uh, and the mother is now tryingto dose the younger daughter to
keep that Munchausen by proxyhigh going.
So he's able to help that ghost.
We also then see that Cole iscast by Stanley, the teacher, in
(16:05):
a play.
He's King Arthur, or not KingArthur, but he's Wart in Once
and Future King.
And before the play, there's awoman helping him with his
makeup, and then we see thatshe's a ghost.
And Stanley comes and is like,Oh, who are you talking to?
He's like, Oh, I was justpracticing my lines.
So Cole has learned how toaccept that these scary people
(16:26):
don't mean him harm.
And so Malcolm is at the playand tells him that he did a
great job and says we won't beseeing each other anymore.
And Malcolm has told Cole thathe's sad because he can't talk
to his wife.
And Cole suggests to him, whydon't you talk to her while
she's asleep?
And so then she will have tolisten and she won't even know.
(16:51):
And Malcolm tells Cole, I thinkyou need to talk to someone a
little closer to home.
Tell your mother what's goingon.
So the next scene we see Coleand his mother in the car.
That's the one, the thing thatyou remember about there's a car
a bike accident.
Bike accident.
And so Cole says, Mom, I'm readyto communicate with you now.
(17:14):
I want to tell you my secrets.
Someone was hurt, was a lady.
She died.
And mom's like cranning herneck, like, can you see?
Where is she?
And he says, standing right nextto my window.
And like Tony Collette isn't aphenomenal actor.
She says, Cole, you're scaringme.
And he says, They scare mesometimes too.
(17:36):
A conversation.
She's clearly like, you can seethe gears turning, like, who do
I need to talk to?
Like, oh my God, do I need totake him to a specialist?
They had previously had aconversation about the Bumblebee
pendant that had been hisgrandmother's because his
grandmother had passed away andhow it keeps disappearing.
(17:57):
And he says, Grandma says hi.
And she's really upset at himfor saying that.
He's like, she's like, that'swrong.
He says, she's sorry that shekeeps taking the Bumblebee
pendant.
She just really likes it and shewants you to know that she saw
you dance.
And he tells a story that hecouldn't have known.
That the grandmother and Lynnhad had a big fight right before
(18:19):
Lynn's dance recital when shewas a little girl.
And so the grandmother went tothe dance recital without
telling Lynn and waited and wasin the back so that Lynn
couldn't see her, but watchedand describes how she danced and
she was so beautiful and justdid this wonderful, amazing job.
And then the thing that makes mecry is he says, Grandma says
(18:43):
that you went to the place whereshe's buried and asked her a
question, and her answer isevery day.
And then Lynn starts reallysobbing.
And he says, What was thequestion?
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
And she says, I asked her, Do I make you proud?
And then they hug.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
And that's why this movie would be remarkable even
without the next 10 minutes.
Which is where Malcolm goes totalk to Anna, who is sleeping in
front of their wedding video.
And that's when you learn thatMalcolm has been dead the entire
time.
She says, Why did you leave me?
(19:25):
That's why he realizes.
Yeah.
And he says, I didn't.
I'm right here.
And then she drops his weddingring because she's holding on to
it.
And the film has been has donesuch a good job and followed the
rules.
Like there there was notrickery.
Like Shyamalan did an excellentjob of like Willis never never
(19:50):
opens a door, never movesfurniture, never interacts with
another character other thanCole.
He follows the rules.
SPEAKER_03 (19:59):
Right.
That's why I say when in mymemory, like on rewatch, there
were clues.
SPEAKER_02 (20:04):
But it's just not a thing that you would the one
thing that I, upon watching,like when I watched it the first
time that I was like, oh, that'sa little odd.
But it was far enough along thatI was willing to go with it was
when they go to the little girlwhose mother had much thousand
by proxy, they take the bus.
(20:24):
And I was like, Why didn't hedrive him?
Why didn't Malcolm drive them?
I thought that was a little odd,but at the same time, I was just
like, I it was far enough alongin the movie, okay.
Sure, you know.
Whereas if it had been earlierin the movie, I would have been
like, why didn't he drive?
But I was, I like, I wasinvested enough, I didn't care.
(20:45):
And then that gives once Malcolmhas accepted that, he is able to
tell Anna, I need you to know, Ineeded to fix something.
I needed to, you know, I failedVincent, I needed to save Cole
or help Cole.
And I needed you to know becauseon the night of the awards, she
(21:05):
said, you've put everythingsecond, including me.
And he he I like, I need you toknow you were never second.
I loved what I did, but you werenever second.
When you wake up tomorrow,everything will be different.
It's just this beautifulemotional ending.
So I want to start with likeShyamalan taking the wrong
(21:28):
lesson from this movie.
That like, oh my god, oh my god,oh my god, is like so
satisfying.
So satisfying, yeah.
But that's not why this movie isgood.
SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
Yeah, yeah.
You said it really you said itreally, really well in the
postcard that it's a reallygreat movie that has a twist.
It's not great because of thetwist.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Yeah.
This movie is good because Colesays what
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
the question, mom.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
Yeah, yeah.
That's where the movie is isexcellent.
That's where the heart is.
That's where the heart is.
And like, and that gets to oneof the things I said is I want
to talk about whose story thisis.
This movie is not Malcolm Crow'smovie.
It's Colsear's movie.
Now it begins and ends withMalcolm Crow.
(22:24):
But it's not his movie.
And I think I feel likeShyamalan forgets that.
Now Bruce Willis is a big star.
SPEAKER_03 (22:35):
And like that's what I remember.
I remember Willis's story.
Like I don't remember any ofCole's story.
I didn't remember.
I mean once you sort of startedtelling me I did remember the
conversation in the car but Ididn't remember the was Grandma
proud of me.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
For one thing ghost stories are about the living
right ultimately.
They always are because theliving write them they are about
loss and even you know BruceWillis's story in this is about
loss.
(23:10):
And so focusing on that twistending is like ignoring the loss
and like really trying to go forthis gotcha that's just cheap.
And this was not a cheap one.
Like it was not cheap.
It earned it.
(23:30):
And like you're you're nevergoing to be able to like you
that's lightning in a bottle.
You can't catch it twice.
And part of what made this movieso remarkable is like you have
ultimately four but threeprimary actors.
So Olivia Williams did anamazing job as well because you
kind of hate her the first timeyou you're watching it.
(23:51):
You're like why are you ignoringyour husband?
And then as you watch it asecond time you're like oh my
God she is grieving.
But Tony Collette, Hayley JoelOsmond and Bruce Willis are all
doing amazing heavy lifting andespecially Osmond who was a
(24:14):
child.
I don't know how they got theperformance from him.
I honestly don't know.
Now he had been he had been anactor since he was like three or
four years old.
He seems to have turned outokay.
He's an adult now I and seems tobe fine but all three of them
(24:35):
like you forget you're watchingcharacters.
They feel like real people andone of the things that Roger
Ebert said contemporaneously waslike he was so impressed with
Osmet but he said I also want topoint out how good Bruce Willis
is because acting against achild is also a very difficult
(24:59):
skill.
And he does it in a way thatfeels very natural.
So like that is also part ofwhat is remarkable about this.
And I believe Osmond and Colettewere both nominated for Academy
Awards.
Film was nominated for six anddidn't win a single one.
As for Tony Colette, and this isbecause Shyamalan wrote the
(25:22):
screenplay and directed this Ithink there's something kind of
subversive about how she iswritten and how Colette plays
her as such an excellent motherbecause she's clearly lower
income.
When we first see her she isgetting ready for work in the
morning she's wearing a bra andshe's getting a shirt out of the
(25:45):
dryer and it is very low cut.
It's like a low-cut button upshirt.
And especially in the late 90s Ifeel like we would normally be
invited to judge especially amom for wearing that.
And maybe we're we were beinginvited I don't know but over
(26:06):
and over and over again we areshown that she is excellent.
She is an excellent mother likerepeatedly the way that she
reassures Cole, he'll ask Areyou very mad?
And she'll say look at my faceI'm not very mad.
Like that's how she shereassures him the one time we
(26:28):
see her get angry, they'rehaving dinner and she says she
was cleaning up in his room andshe found her mother's bumblebee
pendant in in his dresser andshe knows she didn't move it.
And so she says is theresomething you want to tell me
and he says no and you can seehe's very stressed and she says
I won't get angry if you tell meyou took it so do you want to
(26:52):
tell me and he says no and thenshe reminds him like look I I
just don't want it to getbroken.
You know how much I love that.
You know why I'd be so sad.
And he's like yes because youmiss grandma so much and she
says yes and so she says tell medid you take the bumblebee
(27:13):
pendant and he says no and soshe gets really she gets like
mom angry.
She's like I'm tired.
I'm tired of my body I'm tiredin my heart I'm tired in my head
and she's like one more time Ipromise I won't get angry if you
tell me the truth.
Did you take it?
And he says no and then she likebangs her hands on the table and
(27:35):
she says I think you've hadenough dinner.
You need to go to your roomthere is a scary ghost in his
room a few minutes a little bitlater and he goes to her and
says if you're not very mad, canI sleep in your in your bed
tonight?
And she does the look at my faceI'm not very mad.
(27:56):
And so that is the only time wesee her kind of lose her temper
and it is very understandablefrom her point of view.
Mm-hmm.
And it's also veryunderstandable from his point of
view because he's really tryinghard not to lie.
Mm-hmm what I so appreciate isit's hard to like it's hard to
(28:18):
remember because it's been 27years since this movie came out.
Tony Collette is aconventionally attractive white
woman.
Right.
But I do feel like and we do seelike when she's interacting with
the very upper middle classmothers at the party she's
(28:39):
saying like I really appreciateyou inviting Cole.
He, you know, he doesn't getinvited to a lot of parties last
one was at a Chuck E.
Cheese the other mother goeslike Chucky who?
And so you really get theimpression that she does not fit
in and she mentioned somethingabout having two jobs and that
sort of thing.
There's definitely like thisclass stratification and she has
(29:02):
an accent like a working classaccent that Dr.
Crow does not.
When she takes Cole to thehospital she has to talk to a
social worker because Cole hasbruises and scratches from the
ghosts and from trying to getaway from the ghosts.
(29:23):
Part of this is necessary forstorytelling to so that it's
clear that Cole is not in dangerfrom his mother.
The story wouldn't work if wehad any fear that he was in
danger from his mother, ifMalcolm had any fear of that.
But I also I feel like there issomething a little bit
subversive in showing just howincredible a mother she is when
(29:45):
she brings Cole home from thehospital she sees scratches
through his sweater on his bodythat are from the ghost but she
immediately assumes it's fromthe bullies who pushed him into
the the room.
Right.
And so she calls the mother thehost of the party and like tears
her a new one I mean like shecalls and it's supposed to be
(30:09):
late at night she calls she'slike hi this is Lynn Sear,
Cole's mom.
Yeah I want to talk to you aboutyour boy.
I want to talk to you about himand his friends keeping their
goddamn hands off my kid.
Like she goes, you know, MamaBear and like all of it is just
it's very, very impressiveespecially considering how
uncomfortable it was clear shefelt in that very expensive
(30:32):
house.
I just kind of want to givekudos for that for showing like
this woman who is really out ofher element with her kid because
she's like, I know something'swrong.
I don't know how to fix it, butI'm loving my kid as best I can
and giving him the best I canpossibly give him and then going
(30:56):
to bat for him at every turntrying to be the best mother she
can be.
And then the fact that she is alower income mother I feel like
was kind of subversive.
Tony Collette did an amazingjob.
Like I really do think shedeserved more kudos like
deserved an odd from the Academyfor her role you believe at
(31:18):
every step her fierce protectivelove and joy even there are a
couple moments where you see howmuch she enjoys being Cole's
mom.
SPEAKER_03 (31:28):
I would like to circle back to whose story this
is and the wrong takeawaybecause something that has been
bouncing around in my head sinceyou said that is the
conversations that we have hadabout horror movies, actually
and like Beetlejuice andNightmare on Elm Street, where
the most charismatic characterwho ends up on t-shirts and
(31:51):
stuff is like the wrong one theway we've talked about it,
right?
Like the actual the way you justsaid it was that you said this
is Cole's movie.
This is not Malcolm's movie.
That's the way you just said it.
And I think that you might saythe same about Nightmare on Elm
Street.
It's Nancy's movie.
It's not Freddie's movie.
(32:13):
And yet Freddie's the one whoends up sort of owning the
franchise and on people's shirtsand like getting quoted and
getting remembered.
And I think something similar ishappening here for maybe similar
reasons because one of thethings neuroscientifically I
think I'm not a neuroscientistbut I've been reading I'm
(32:34):
reading a book right now by aguy the what's his name Cole
Keyes he's the positivepsychology guy.
And one of the things that Ijust read last night was that
evolutionarily dopamine isaround so that we kind of
remember the thing that broughtthe pleasure like it helps like
lock in the memories.
(32:56):
I imagine that the other coreemotions evolutionarily it's
similar and so fear like when wehave those strong fear response
like our brain is like ohremember this because we might
need it later likeevolutionarily we need it to
remember what the saber-toothedtiger looks like.
And so that's why we rememberFreddie because he scared us.
(33:19):
And so that like emotion of thetwist around Malcolm and that
kind of like the shock and theawe and the like you know the
gears turning then also becomesthe moment of memory which gets
imprinted.
And that's why that's what Iremember even though I believe
you this is not Malcolm's movie.
(33:40):
But the way my brain is wired,the way everyone's brain is
wired so that we survive as aspecies means that that high
emotion moment of like I don'tknow what I don't know how to
name it because it's not quitefear.
It's like surprise and fear andand like realization.
But that moment of some dopaminehit actually it probably is that
(34:04):
satisfaction sears that twistinto our brains.
And since that's what theaudience was talking about and
that's what everybody was likedamn M night that was cool.
It's like no wonder that he tookthe wrong lesson because that's
what he got a response for.
So I just like I wanted to likejust circle back to that to
(34:26):
bring back other conversationswe have had and put them all
into a bigger conversation aboutsort of the way brains work.
Which doesn't mean that that'sthe best part of the story.
It just means that's the partthat got the biggest like
emotional response in the momentor the kind at least the kind of
emotional response that is tiedto memory making.
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:47):
Specifically so I'm sorry I interrupted your thought
about parenthood but it soundedlike you were ready to move on
to the next thing.
So that's why I wanted to circleback.
SPEAKER_02 (34:57):
That just in terms of storytelling part of the
reason why I say it's Cole'smovie and not Malcolm's is
because Cole has a characterarc.
He changes over the course ofthe film.
Malcolm it makes him theprotagonist.
Yeah yeah he does have arealization.
He's a realization and herectifies a wrong but he doesn't
(35:23):
grow or change.
SPEAKER_03 (35:24):
He doesn't grow or change who he is yeah I think
that fundamentally is what itmakes a protagonist.
SPEAKER_02 (35:30):
Yeah exactly agreed I want to talk about second
chances that's kind of what themovie's about throughout.
So Cole is Malcolm's secondchance at helping a haunted
child.
Mm-hmm I was thinking about andthis is something that bothered
me m from the beginning theteacher who yells at Cole and
(35:54):
calls him a freak.
Stanley Stanley first time I sawit I wondered what the heck
happened to that teacher becausethat's not okay.
Cole is nine.
If a dine year old can triggeryou probably shouldn't be
teaching nine year olds so likenow obviously like he triggered
(36:14):
something very deep in Stanleybut still and I always did
appreciate like coming back towhere Cole says to the teacher
thank you for casting me in thisplay and they have a
conversation about it.
The teacher is kind to him andthe woman who is helping Cole
with his makeup when she turnsher face is burned.
(36:36):
The teacher says to him Stanleysays to him like oh did you know
that there was a fire in thistheater when I was a student at
this school and Cole says yes Iknow.
One of the things that I kind ofappreciate is that both Stanley
and Cole are getting a secondchance here.
There's a like Cole is be isgiving grace to his teacher it
(36:57):
seems like his teacher must havebeen through something awful
considering the fact that firemust have been traumatizing.
Yeah.
Obviously Malcolm's getting thesecond chance Cole is giving his
mother second chance tounderstand her mother because
clearly there was some tensionbetween them, you know, just
(37:19):
based on the little that we hearwe see Anna Malcolm's wife
having like a kind of kind of asecond chance romance with the
man who works for her.
That's something that I think isinteresting and part of why it's
so important to recognize thatthis is Cole's story.
(37:39):
He embodies the ability to tryagain and he embodies the like
kind of childlike wonder andinnocence even though he's so
frightened like he is cut offcynical and scared and he
(38:01):
doesn't have friends.
He's isolated he's anxious andyet he is still open to joy and
wonder because he is there issomething still welcoming in him
to to goodness.
And that's again part of whatmakes this movie remarkable.
SPEAKER_03 (38:23):
I want to stick with something you just said about
Cole embodying the second chanceI think that's literal, right?
Because he's helping ghosts moveon.
And so there's there's a reallyinteresting like circular nature
to this sort of second chancethat goes with all of those
(38:44):
other things that I I think thethesis is that one needs that
openness in order to have asecond chance but also to help
others we need help for thatsecond chance.
Like all of those things arebaked into the metaphor of Cole
as an embodied second chancewhich is really interesting.
And and the fact that he seesall dead people right like he
(39:08):
has to be open to sort ofhelping who he comes upon in
order to be that embodiment of asecond chance.
There it requires an opennessand a grace and a curiosity and
I don't there's something likeas I'm saying it that I'm seeing
that's that's really, reallypowerful I think when you think
(39:29):
about and of course you wouldmake it a child.
He has to be a child.
Yes.
For the metaphor within thestory to work.
SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
Mm-hmm.
That gets to like childhood andbelieving children.
Yeah.
Because the reason why Malcolmfailed Vincent and why Cole
never spoke to his mother isbecause people don't believe
children.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:59):
We're talking about a ghost story here.
But this is true of real worldproblems as well.
SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
Yeah.
I don't know where to put that Idon't know where to put that I
can remember many years ago whenlike we were kids, we were
watching some movie that wasyeah like I don't even remember
where a kid made contact withaliens or something and tried to
tell their parents and and theparents of course didn't believe
them.
And I remember mom turning to megoing like I wonder if I believe
(40:30):
you the sort of thing where likeI I have even in like this
excellent parent-childrelationship between Lynn and
Cole he tries to tell her thetruth about the Bumblebee
pendant.
He says to her sometimes peoplethink they lose things and they
don't it just gets moved and shedoesn't she doesn't believe him.
(40:52):
And you know I have kids andthere are times when I know
they're lying to me but also ifyou're looking at his body
language he is so upset.
So it it's I'm not sure whereI'm going with this but our
(41:14):
culture, our society, ourmedical system, our judicial
system, our educational systemfails kids every single day
because we don't believe them,because it's easier not to or
because we think that that can'tpossibly be happening or
anything like that.
And I feel like stopping andtaking a minute and saying like
(41:37):
what if this were true isimportant and proceeding as if
it were.
SPEAKER_03 (41:43):
Yeah.
I think that's the importantbit, right?
Because even when Coles tellsMalcolm, I see dead people and
they don't know they're dead andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like there's a degree to whichhe's, oh shit, I gotta get him
as like a special as maybe hehas schizophrenia or whatever.
Maybe he's delusional.
But I think even if you thinkthat it may be delusions, like
(42:06):
obviously the kid believes it.
Maybe that's where he failed,Vincent, right?
Like I think that that's like Ithink about the times like my
daughter was at sleepaway campand she had a sore throat and
the counselor was like, you'refine, let's go play basketball.
She had strep throat.
Like the inconvenience, but likeone can kind of I feel like
(42:27):
there is an in-between groundsay like, okay, tell me more.
And like I believe that youbelieve this.
I'm not exactly sure what'shappening, but like let's go
with it.
Okay, your throat hurts.
Like tell me more.
You know, like I feel like thereare in-between I also totally
get why Lynn was angry when thebody language of him being so
(42:51):
uncomfortable and scared likeone could interpret that as
because he just got caughtstealing the bumblebee pendant
and not and lying about it.
SPEAKER_02 (43:01):
Well and that actually that gets to one other
thing that I a big part of thereason why Cole tells Malcolm he
doesn't talk to his motherbecause she doesn't look at him
like everyone else does likehe's a freak and he doesn't want
her to.
But you also get the impressionhe kind of wants to protect her
too.
Mm-hmm so he tells the story ofhe drew a picture once at school
(43:27):
where they could draw a pictureof whatever they wanted and he
drew a picture of a man puttinga screwdriver in the throat of
another man with blood.
And they had a meeting.
Yeah.
They had a meeting his momcried.
So he doesn't draw pictures likethat anymore.
He draws pictures of peoplesmiling, dogs running rainbows.
They don't have meetings whenyou draw pictures of rainbows.
(43:49):
So he is working to protect hismom because his mom works so
hard to protect him.
He knows how difficult Theirlife is for his mom.
So that's also a part of it aswell, is he knows it's
convenient for his mom to notbelieve him because of how
(44:13):
difficult their life is.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (44:16):
You named parentification as a thing that
you wanted to talk about.
This feels like I feel likewe're getting into that.
I I noticed it too earlier whenyou were like, you named that
Cole gave teacher Stanley somegrace at the end with the play.
That like, is that really on thenine-year-old to give grace?
It should be.
SPEAKER_02 (44:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the thing, like, Isay parentification.
Now the thing is it's not likeLynn's an excellent mother.
She's not doing this to himintentionally.
I'm not sure that ever isintentional.
Oh, well, I think someparentification is, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (44:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (44:53):
But he ends up taking on a protective role.
Right.
Because he's had to grow upbecause of what he knows about
dead people.
SPEAKER_03 (45:05):
Well, his condition, if you will, causes
adultification.
Yes.
Does it cause parentificationthough?
Because I they're two differentthings.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:16):
Well, I think he takes care of his mom in ways
that that she doesn't evenrealize.
She doesn't realize.
Yeah.
He has learned to protecthimself.
So like by drawing rainbows andthings like that, that is
partially protecting him, butalso protecting his mother.
And then I think by working withMalcolm, he is also learning to
(45:39):
protect other people that alsokind of protects himself.
So and that's what's happeningwith the teacher Stanley.
But also like being open tohaving a lovely conversation
with the woman who's helping himwith his makeup.
Is he is seeing like theconnections between these people
and can be a friend and see likesee Stanley as not just his
(46:07):
adult teacher, but also the kidwho went through something
traumatic and see him as a peeralmost.
SPEAKER_03 (46:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Because the woman would have seen, would have
known him as a small boy, right?
That's the adultification.
SPEAKER_03 (46:21):
That's an interesting way to frame it.
I like that.
We're running a little short ontime.
So there was a number ofpostcards that you gave that we
haven't quite gotten to.
Do you want to talk about thevisual metaphors?
Because I feel like that's athing that you tend to really
like in terms of like the craft.
SPEAKER_02 (46:36):
One thing that Shyamalan did very intentionally
was you talked about the coldand then the color red.
He used red intentionally torepresent like ghostly moments.
So there was the red of thedoorknob into the door into the
basement, which was whereMalcolm worked.
There was the red balloon thatCole followed up to where that
(47:01):
room was.
He was wearing a red sweaterthat day.
The antidepressants were redthat Anna was taking.
There's a tent that Cole hasmade for himself in his room
that he has filled with likereligious icons in the kind of
hope that that would keep theghosts out, that is made out of
(47:21):
a red bed sheet.
Bed sheet, or it's thicker thana bed sheet, it's like velvet.
The girl who finds him therelike destroys it.
The use of that color red isjust very visually striking and
helpful.
Another one that is like spoken,not shown, is coal.
(47:43):
It's C-O-L-E, but Cole is black.
A crow is black.
And Vincent Gray was thepatient.
So which I think is interesting.
I've always hated the name ColeSeer because I find it difficult
to put your mouth around, likeit's a stupid name, but he's a
seer.
SPEAKER_01 (48:03):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (48:04):
And so, like there I think that that was very much
intentional in the name.
SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
Yes.
Yeah.
Cool.
Well, we are out of time.
So let me quickly reflect backto you some of the things that
we talked about.
We started with the fact thatShyamalan took the wrong lesson
from this movie.
We spent quite a bit of timetalking about that.
That the way you put it was thisis an excellent movie that also
has a twist.
It wasn't excellent because ofthe twist.
(48:29):
And it seems from the rest ofhis career that Shyamalan
thought it was excellent becauseof the twist.
And so he was always trying torecapture that lightning in a
bottle.
I wondered if maybe part of thereason he took the wrong lesson
is because of the way our brainsmake memories around strong
emotions, in particular, thatsort of satisfaction of that
twist and that got audiencestalking, or the satisfaction of
(48:51):
being afraid, like Nightmare onElm Street.
I brought that in.
You spent some time talkingabout Lynn as an excellent
mother and some of the choicesaround her demography that maybe
are subversive to put thisexcellent mother in the body of
a lower income woman who likewears revealing clothing, who
(49:14):
has a working class accent, andthat those choices felt a bit
subversive to you, which Ithought was really interesting.
We spent some time talking aboutwhose story this is, whether
it's Cole's story, the child, orMalcolm's story, the adult
ghost.
And you convinced me that it isin fact Cole's story.
He is the protagonist becausehe's the one who grows and
(49:36):
changes.
Malcolm does realize somethings, but he fundamentally is
the same person at the end as hewas at the beginning.
We spent time talking aboutchildhood and adultification
versus parentification andbelieving children and the fact
that that ultimately is whyMalcolm failed.
(50:06):
We talked some about that, likewithin this movie, but also a
little bit broader.
You spent some time talkingabout ghost stories and the fact
that ghost stories are about theliving because the living tell
them and that they're oftenabout second chances.
And this movie very much isabout second chances, and that
Cole himself personifies,embodies a second chance, not
(50:28):
just for himself or for Malcolmor for that little girl who he
helped save her sister.
And part of that embodiment ishe has to be a child because it
requires an openness and awonder and a curiosity that we
often lose as adults.
We did not get to talk muchabout Philadelphia or about
(50:49):
gender in this film.
We did talk a lot about greatacting, including from Osmond,
who was only nine or 10 at thetime.
I am sure that in the shit weforgot to say about the Sixth
Sense, which is available topatrons over on our Patreon,
that you will go into moredetail about the things we
didn't get to and probably someother stuff if I know my sister.
(51:10):
I'm rushing because we're out oftime.
Next week, Emily, I'm going tobring you my deep thoughts about
E.T.
So we get to talk about morechild actors.
Awesome.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
(51:33):
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
(51:54):
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Ghost stories are about the living.
SPEAKER_03 (00:02):
Ultimately, they always are.
Because the living write them.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:25):
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:28):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1999 M.
Night Shyamalan film, The SixthSense, with my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
(00:49):
Let's dive in.
Actually, before we dive in, Iwould like to ask you, listener,
if you haven't already, toplease quickly follow the
podcast on Apple or Spotify orwherever you get your pods.
It is a quick, simple, and easyand free way that you can help
(01:10):
the pod.
And we would be very gratefulfor it.
Thank you very much.
Now let's dive in.
So, Tracy, I actually don't knowif you've seen this movie.
I have.
Oh, okay.
So, what's in your head aboutit?
I see dead people.
SPEAKER_03 (01:29):
I I actually think I've seen it more than once
because I have a lot in my head.
I can remember the first timeseeing it when the big reveal
happens, like really beingshocked, which is funny because
on Rewatch, you're like, thereare so many clues along the way,
which is why I'm pretty sureI've seen it more than once.
I mean, from that moment whenthe child says, I see dead
(01:50):
people, but it was done so welland it was such an unexpected,
like not what you expect it tobe, that like I was really
shocked.
And I remember really enjoying alot of the sort of details that
then become clear in retrospect,like the fact that Bruce
Wallace's character is alwayswearing the same set of
clothing.
(02:10):
Like it varies a little bit, butit's always like that sweatshirt
and the bleed or whatever.
And the there's like a color,like the door that he can't get
in because his wife has movedsomething in front of it, but
the doorknob is like a color,right?
It's red.
And like the color red sort ofindicates things.
And I remember like when welearn, it's because she says
(02:31):
something like, Why did youleave me?
And he's like, I'm right here.
Most of what's in my head isaround Bruce Willis's character
and him kind of coming to therealization of his circumstance
and like and that, as opposed tolike the child whose name I
don't eat, I don't remembereither of their names.
(02:52):
But that's what's in my head isreally Willis's story or Bruce
Willis's character story andsort of like the way that I
thought about what would that belike to not realize that your
status has changed sosignificantly and to try to be
interacting.
Like I got kind of stuck in theempathy of that when I watched
it.
(03:12):
So that's what's in my headabout the sixth sense.
I mean, there are other likelittle like snapshots,
vignettes, like the bicycleaccident from early in the movie
and other things, but like latein the movie.
Oh, is it?
Where like his mom's like, Ihope everyone's okay, and he's
like, they're not.
So there are other little likesnapshots like that, but that's
(03:34):
like that's the core storythat's in my head.
But tell me, M, why are wetalking about the sixth sense
today?
So what's at stake for you withthis movie?
SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
So I really, really loved this movie.
I unironically, just now beforewe hit record, called it a
masterpiece, and it is.
And I had warm fuzzies about M.
Night Shyamalan for longer thanhe deserved it after this.
And as we'll get to, I'll talkabout how I think he took the
(04:03):
wrong lesson from this movie.
I think he's a very talenteddirector, but all anybody talked
about was the twist with thismovie, and that is not what he
should have learned from it.
Because this is a remarkablefilm that also has a twist.
It's not a remarkable filmbecause of the twist, but the
(04:25):
twist is a gut punch in apositive way on top of a film
that without the twist stillwould have been a remarkable
film.
So I also I love ghost stories.
I have always loved ghoststories.
And so that's part of it aswell.
And I love the trope of ghostsunable to move on until they
(04:49):
have finished their finalbusiness.
So that's part of why I likethis story.
And then the idea that there'sthis second chance for someone
who failed one little boy andcan save another little boy is
another thing that really,really pulls at my heartstrings.
(05:12):
The central relationship betweenthe little boy, the character's
name is Cole Sear, and hismother, Lynn, is also another
one that I just truly felt in1999 when I was 20 seeing it.
And then watching it againyesterday.
I have not seen it sincebecoming a parent, but watching
(05:35):
it yesterday, I cry every time Isee this film, but I really
cried yesterday seeing it nowthat I am a mother of children
who are older than Cole now, butfeeling that kind of maternal
protectiveness and worry for avulnerable little boy.
It really that this is ameaningful film to me in so many
(05:58):
ways.
That's why I wanted to talkabout it.
And then also like Shyamalan, Ihate that he has become a joke.
He's become a punchline at thispoint because he has a great
deal of talent that I just feellike he he has kind of, I don't
want to say squandered, but hejust keeps trying to recreate
(06:19):
something when he could havedone so much more because he
took the wrong lesson.
So that's another aspect of it.
Like there, there's so much morehe could have done.
And he has done some veryinteresting stuff, even with
trying to recreate the twistending with this.
I still enjoy his films, even asI'm like, oh, come on, come on.
(06:46):
I still enjoy his technicalskill.
It bothers me that this is histhe peak of his career because I
think he could have done so muchmore.
That's why we're talking aboutit.
So let me give you somepostcards from the destination.
As I said, we're gonna talkabout the why Shyamalan took the
(07:06):
wrong lesson from this movie andwhat lesson he should have
taken.
I'm gonna talk about parenthoodand what good parenthood looks
like and how I feel like it's alittle subversive what Shyamalan
does with Tony Collette'scharacter and holding her up as
an exemplar of a good mother.
(07:27):
I want to talk about theabsolutely phenomenal acting,
especially from Haley JoelOsmond, who was about nine or 10
years old at the time.
I want to talk about whose storyit is and part of the reason how
that helps the twist work.
I want to talk about childhoodand the importance of believing
children.
I want to talk about the visualmetaphors that you were talking
(07:49):
about with the red ghost storiesand parentification, which I
think kind of go hand in hand.
And I want to talk about secondchances.
So those are some things thatI'm going to be mentioning.
Also gonna talk a little bitabout Philadelphia.
I forgot to mention that beforewe hit record.
This is Shyamalan is from uhPennsylvania, and he is a
(08:10):
consistently likes to film inhis home state, and there is
like a bit of a love letter towhere he is from in every film.
And there's something verysetting a ghost story in
Philadelphia is fascinating.
And those are some things that Iwant to get to.
I am just going to brieflymention this does not pass
(08:31):
Beckdell.
There are two named femalecharacters, Lynn Sear, played by
Tony Collette, who is Haley JoelOsmond's mother.
And then there is Anna Crow, whois Bruce Willis's wife, played
by Olivia Williams.
They do not ever meet each otheror interact.
Basic story.
At the very beginning, we seeAnna and Malcolm Crow.
(08:54):
Malcolm Crow is Bruce Willis'scharacter celebrating.
They're a little drunk.
He has just won an award fromthe city of Philadelphia.
He is a child psychologist whohe has received this award for
his help, his work with veryvulnerable children.
And he is being honored for howmuch he has helped children in
(09:18):
the city.
That same night, a young manbreaks into his home and has
stripped down to just hisunderwear as in the bathroom,
the ensuite bathroom in theirkind of old Philadelphia home
and says, You failed me.
And he says, Do you know whyyou're afraid when you're alone?
(09:38):
I do.
He says, You don't evenrecognize your own patient.
And it takes Malcolm a momentand he recognizes him as Vincent
Gray.
Vincent says, You said you wouldhelp me and you didn't.
You see that there is a whitestreak in his hair, even though
he is a young man.
He's like in his mid-twenties,maybe, but he he's like an aged
(10:00):
mid-20s.
He then shoots Malcolm and thenturns the gun on himself.
Camera pans and it says, thenext fall.
And Malcolm is waiting outsidean apartment.
He is taking notes on a boynamed Cole Seer, who also has a
white patch in the back of hishair.
(10:21):
And Cole is leaving hisapartment and then like runs
away.
And Malcolm has to hurry tocatch him.
And he catches up with him in achurch where Cole has a bunch of
little like army figures as wellas some religious figures.
And he is mumbling to himself inLatin.
And Malcolm comes up to him andsays, I'm sorry I missed our
(10:44):
appointments.
I was hoping that we could talkhere.
And so basically introduceshimself.
I'm Dr.
Crow.
I'm hoping to help you.
I know your parents recently gotdivorced, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
And Cole is very closed off andsays, You can't help me.
We see several things happen.
(11:05):
Cole is at home.
His mom is in the kitchen withhim.
She leaves, comes back, and allof the cabinets are open in a
way that is way too quick for itto have for him to have opened
cabinets and then sit back satback down.
His mom is looking, is doinglaundry and is looking at a wall
of pictures of Cole, and there'slike a little flash of light in
(11:27):
every single one from the timehe was a baby.
And so it's clear that he hasbeen haunted since babyhood.
Cole starts opening up to Dr.
Crow, tells him that everyonethinks he's a freak.
Don't look at me like that,because people look at him like
he's a freak.
He has a really bad day atschool where the teacher who
(11:48):
mentions that he went to schoolat the same building when he was
a kid asks, Do you know whatthis building was used for in
the 1800s or 1700s?
And Cole knows, he says theyused to hang people here.
And the teacher's like, No,that's not correct.
It was a courthouse.
They passed laws here.
And Cole starts arguing withhim.
(12:10):
It was, you know, the lawmakerswho hanged people.
And the teacher kind of looks athim a little ironically, and
that sets Cole off, who startscalling the teacher stuttering
Stanley, because that's what theother kids called him, and the
ghosts have told him that.
And the teacher loses his temperand calls him a freak.
(12:31):
And Dr.
Crow comes back, and the moviedoes a good job of showing him
to be a pretty good childpsychiatrist, psychologist.
I don't remember which he'ssupposed to be.
I think actually, I think theydo make it clear that he's a
psychologist because he's notable to prescribe by drawing him
out and, you know, making himfeel comfortable, a silly magic
(12:53):
trick and stuff like that, rightafter that incident.
Cole is at a kid's birthdayparty.
It's one where the parents arestaying, and Lynn is there too.
She does not fit in.
She is definitely lower incomethan the rest of the kids.
He appears that Cole goes to aprivate school.
And so he is going up thesestairs.
(13:13):
He follows a balloon up, andthere is a ghost in this like
room where the door is open, buthe can hear someone saying,
like, let me out.
And two other boys force him inthere and lock him in.
Lynn goes up and hears, like,hears him screaming to get out,
and she can't figure out how toopen the door.
(13:33):
They finally get him out, and heis like passed out from fright.
And so she takes him to thehospital.
And that's where Cole finallytells Dr.
Crow, that scene you remember, Isee dead people.
They don't know they're dead.
They walk around.
They can't see each other.
They just appear and they, andDr.
(13:56):
Crow at that point thinks, like,I can't help him.
He might be schizophrenic, andthat's why I think he's not a
psychiatrist, because he can'tprescribe.
He then, Dr.
Crow then goes back and listensto a recording of one of his
sessions with Vincent, where hehad to leave in the middle of it
to take a phone call, and heturns the volume all the way up
(14:18):
and he hears.
So Vincent was supposed to bealone in the middle of it, and
he hears a ghost speaking.
And so he realizes that Cole istelling the truth.
SPEAKER_03 (14:28):
There's something about cold, right?
When the ghosts are there, it'scold.
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
Yes.
Meanwhile, during all of this,since the break-in, Malcolm and
his wife just aren't talking toeach other.
He arrives late to theiranniversary dinner.
When he comes home, she has madedinner for herself.
He sees at one point that she isnow taking an antidepressants
that he didn't know about.
And uh she seems to be driftinginto an affair with someone who
(14:55):
works at the antique shop sheowns.
Dr.
Crow comes back to Cole andsuggests maybe the ghosts come
to you because you can speak tothem and they need your help.
And so there is a little girlghost who comes to him and
basically she wants him to sharea video that she made with her
(15:18):
father.
She was ill for two years andso, and like in bed for two
years.
And so her only like outlet wasshe had like puppet shows that
she would put on for herself andshe had like a video camera.
And so she accidentally caughther mother dosing her with like
pine salt because her mother haduh Munchhausen by proxy.
(15:39):
And so she has video footage ofthis, and so he's able to give
that to the father.
Uh, and the mother is now tryingto dose the younger daughter to
keep that Munchausen by proxyhigh going.
So he's able to help that ghost.
We also then see that Cole iscast by Stanley, the teacher, in
(16:05):
a play.
He's King Arthur, or not KingArthur, but he's Wart in Once
and Future King.
And before the play, there's awoman helping him with his
makeup, and then we see thatshe's a ghost.
And Stanley comes and is like,Oh, who are you talking to?
He's like, Oh, I was justpracticing my lines.
So Cole has learned how toaccept that these scary people
(16:26):
don't mean him harm.
And so Malcolm is at the playand tells him that he did a
great job and says we won't beseeing each other anymore.
And Malcolm has told Cole thathe's sad because he can't talk
to his wife.
And Cole suggests to him, whydon't you talk to her while
she's asleep?
And so then she will have tolisten and she won't even know.
(16:51):
And Malcolm tells Cole, I thinkyou need to talk to someone a
little closer to home.
Tell your mother what's goingon.
So the next scene we see Coleand his mother in the car.
That's the one, the thing thatyou remember about there's a car
a bike accident.
Bike accident.
And so Cole says, Mom, I'm readyto communicate with you now.
(17:14):
I want to tell you my secrets.
Someone was hurt, was a lady.
She died.
And mom's like cranning herneck, like, can you see?
Where is she?
And he says, standing right nextto my window.
And like Tony Collette isn't aphenomenal actor.
She says, Cole, you're scaringme.
And he says, They scare mesometimes too.
(17:36):
A conversation.
She's clearly like, you can seethe gears turning, like, who do
I need to talk to?
Like, oh my God, do I need totake him to a specialist?
They had previously had aconversation about the Bumblebee
pendant that had been hisgrandmother's because his
grandmother had passed away andhow it keeps disappearing.
(17:57):
And he says, Grandma says hi.
And she's really upset at himfor saying that.
He's like, she's like, that'swrong.
He says, she's sorry that shekeeps taking the Bumblebee
pendant.
She just really likes it and shewants you to know that she saw
you dance.
And he tells a story that hecouldn't have known.
That the grandmother and Lynnhad had a big fight right before
(18:19):
Lynn's dance recital when shewas a little girl.
And so the grandmother went tothe dance recital without
telling Lynn and waited and wasin the back so that Lynn
couldn't see her, but watchedand describes how she danced and
she was so beautiful and justdid this wonderful, amazing job.
And then the thing that makes mecry is he says, Grandma says
(18:43):
that you went to the place whereshe's buried and asked her a
question, and her answer isevery day.
And then Lynn starts reallysobbing.
And he says, What was thequestion?
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
And she says, I asked her, Do I make you proud?
And then they hug.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
And that's why this movie would be remarkable even
without the next 10 minutes.
Which is where Malcolm goes totalk to Anna, who is sleeping in
front of their wedding video.
And that's when you learn thatMalcolm has been dead the entire
time.
She says, Why did you leave me?
(19:25):
That's why he realizes.
Yeah.
And he says, I didn't.
I'm right here.
And then she drops his weddingring because she's holding on to
it.
And the film has been has donesuch a good job and followed the
rules.
Like there there was notrickery.
Like Shyamalan did an excellentjob of like Willis never never
(19:50):
opens a door, never movesfurniture, never interacts with
another character other thanCole.
He follows the rules.
SPEAKER_03 (19:59):
Right.
That's why I say when in mymemory, like on rewatch, there
were clues.
SPEAKER_02 (20:04):
But it's just not a thing that you would the one
thing that I, upon watching,like when I watched it the first
time that I was like, oh, that'sa little odd.
But it was far enough along thatI was willing to go with it was
when they go to the little girlwhose mother had much thousand
by proxy, they take the bus.
(20:24):
And I was like, Why didn't hedrive him?
Why didn't Malcolm drive them?
I thought that was a little odd,but at the same time, I was just
like, I it was far enough alongin the movie, okay.
Sure, you know.
Whereas if it had been earlierin the movie, I would have been
like, why didn't he drive?
But I was, I like, I wasinvested enough, I didn't care.
(20:45):
And then that gives once Malcolmhas accepted that, he is able to
tell Anna, I need you to know, Ineeded to fix something.
I needed to, you know, I failedVincent, I needed to save Cole
or help Cole.
And I needed you to know becauseon the night of the awards, she
(21:05):
said, you've put everythingsecond, including me.
And he he I like, I need you toknow you were never second.
I loved what I did, but you werenever second.
When you wake up tomorrow,everything will be different.
It's just this beautifulemotional ending.
So I want to start with likeShyamalan taking the wrong
(21:28):
lesson from this movie.
That like, oh my god, oh my god,oh my god, is like so
satisfying.
So satisfying, yeah.
But that's not why this movie isgood.
SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
Yeah, yeah.
You said it really you said itreally, really well in the
postcard that it's a reallygreat movie that has a twist.
It's not great because of thetwist.
SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
Yeah.
This movie is good because Colesays what
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
the question, mom.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
Yeah, yeah.
That's where the movie is isexcellent.
That's where the heart is.
That's where the heart is.
And like, and that gets to oneof the things I said is I want
to talk about whose story thisis.
This movie is not Malcolm Crow'smovie.
It's Colsear's movie.
Now it begins and ends withMalcolm Crow.
(22:24):
But it's not his movie.
And I think I feel likeShyamalan forgets that.
Now Bruce Willis is a big star.
SPEAKER_03 (22:35):
And like that's what I remember.
I remember Willis's story.
Like I don't remember any ofCole's story.
I didn't remember.
I mean once you sort of startedtelling me I did remember the
conversation in the car but Ididn't remember the was Grandma
proud of me.
SPEAKER_02 (22:49):
For one thing ghost stories are about the living
right ultimately.
They always are because theliving write them they are about
loss and even you know BruceWillis's story in this is about
loss.
(23:10):
And so focusing on that twistending is like ignoring the loss
and like really trying to go forthis gotcha that's just cheap.
And this was not a cheap one.
Like it was not cheap.
It earned it.
(23:30):
And like you're you're nevergoing to be able to like you
that's lightning in a bottle.
You can't catch it twice.
And part of what made this movieso remarkable is like you have
ultimately four but threeprimary actors.
So Olivia Williams did anamazing job as well because you
kind of hate her the first timeyou you're watching it.
(23:51):
You're like why are you ignoringyour husband?
And then as you watch it asecond time you're like oh my
God she is grieving.
But Tony Collette, Hayley JoelOsmond and Bruce Willis are all
doing amazing heavy lifting andespecially Osmond who was a
(24:14):
child.
I don't know how they got theperformance from him.
I honestly don't know.
Now he had been he had been anactor since he was like three or
four years old.
He seems to have turned outokay.
He's an adult now I and seems tobe fine but all three of them
(24:35):
like you forget you're watchingcharacters.
They feel like real people andone of the things that Roger
Ebert said contemporaneously waslike he was so impressed with
Osmet but he said I also want topoint out how good Bruce Willis
is because acting against achild is also a very difficult
(24:59):
skill.
And he does it in a way thatfeels very natural.
So like that is also part ofwhat is remarkable about this.
And I believe Osmond and Colettewere both nominated for Academy
Awards.
Film was nominated for six anddidn't win a single one.
As for Tony Colette, and this isbecause Shyamalan wrote the
(25:22):
screenplay and directed this Ithink there's something kind of
subversive about how she iswritten and how Colette plays
her as such an excellent motherbecause she's clearly lower
income.
When we first see her she isgetting ready for work in the
morning she's wearing a bra andshe's getting a shirt out of the
(25:45):
dryer and it is very low cut.
It's like a low-cut button upshirt.
And especially in the late 90s Ifeel like we would normally be
invited to judge especially amom for wearing that.
And maybe we're we were beinginvited I don't know but over
(26:06):
and over and over again we areshown that she is excellent.
She is an excellent mother likerepeatedly the way that she
reassures Cole, he'll ask Areyou very mad?
And she'll say look at my faceI'm not very mad.
Like that's how she shereassures him the one time we
(26:28):
see her get angry, they'rehaving dinner and she says she
was cleaning up in his room andshe found her mother's bumblebee
pendant in in his dresser andshe knows she didn't move it.
And so she says is theresomething you want to tell me
and he says no and you can seehe's very stressed and she says
I won't get angry if you tell meyou took it so do you want to
(26:52):
tell me and he says no and thenshe reminds him like look I I
just don't want it to getbroken.
You know how much I love that.
You know why I'd be so sad.
And he's like yes because youmiss grandma so much and she
says yes and so she says tell medid you take the bumblebee
(27:13):
pendant and he says no and soshe gets really she gets like
mom angry.
She's like I'm tired.
I'm tired of my body I'm tiredin my heart I'm tired in my head
and she's like one more time Ipromise I won't get angry if you
tell me the truth.
Did you take it?
And he says no and then she likebangs her hands on the table and
(27:35):
she says I think you've hadenough dinner.
You need to go to your roomthere is a scary ghost in his
room a few minutes a little bitlater and he goes to her and
says if you're not very mad, canI sleep in your in your bed
tonight?
And she does the look at my faceI'm not very mad.
(27:56):
And so that is the only time wesee her kind of lose her temper
and it is very understandablefrom her point of view.
Mm-hmm.
And it's also veryunderstandable from his point of
view because he's really tryinghard not to lie.
Mm-hmm what I so appreciate isit's hard to like it's hard to
(28:18):
remember because it's been 27years since this movie came out.
Tony Collette is aconventionally attractive white
woman.
Right.
But I do feel like and we do seelike when she's interacting with
the very upper middle classmothers at the party she's
(28:39):
saying like I really appreciateyou inviting Cole.
He, you know, he doesn't getinvited to a lot of parties last
one was at a Chuck E.
Cheese the other mother goeslike Chucky who?
And so you really get theimpression that she does not fit
in and she mentioned somethingabout having two jobs and that
sort of thing.
There's definitely like thisclass stratification and she has
(29:02):
an accent like a working classaccent that Dr.
Crow does not.
When she takes Cole to thehospital she has to talk to a
social worker because Cole hasbruises and scratches from the
ghosts and from trying to getaway from the ghosts.
(29:23):
Part of this is necessary forstorytelling to so that it's
clear that Cole is not in dangerfrom his mother.
The story wouldn't work if wehad any fear that he was in
danger from his mother, ifMalcolm had any fear of that.
But I also I feel like there issomething a little bit
subversive in showing just howincredible a mother she is when
(29:45):
she brings Cole home from thehospital she sees scratches
through his sweater on his bodythat are from the ghost but she
immediately assumes it's fromthe bullies who pushed him into
the the room.
Right.
And so she calls the mother thehost of the party and like tears
her a new one I mean like shecalls and it's supposed to be
(30:09):
late at night she calls she'slike hi this is Lynn Sear,
Cole's mom.
Yeah I want to talk to you aboutyour boy.
I want to talk to you about himand his friends keeping their
goddamn hands off my kid.
Like she goes, you know, MamaBear and like all of it is just
it's very, very impressiveespecially considering how
uncomfortable it was clear shefelt in that very expensive
(30:32):
house.
I just kind of want to givekudos for that for showing like
this woman who is really out ofher element with her kid because
she's like, I know something'swrong.
I don't know how to fix it, butI'm loving my kid as best I can
and giving him the best I canpossibly give him and then going
(30:56):
to bat for him at every turntrying to be the best mother she
can be.
And then the fact that she is alower income mother I feel like
was kind of subversive.
Tony Collette did an amazingjob.
Like I really do think shedeserved more kudos like
deserved an odd from the Academyfor her role you believe at
(31:18):
every step her fierce protectivelove and joy even there are a
couple moments where you see howmuch she enjoys being Cole's
mom.
SPEAKER_03 (31:28):
I would like to circle back to whose story this
is and the wrong takeawaybecause something that has been
bouncing around in my head sinceyou said that is the
conversations that we have hadabout horror movies, actually
and like Beetlejuice andNightmare on Elm Street, where
the most charismatic characterwho ends up on t-shirts and
(31:51):
stuff is like the wrong one theway we've talked about it,
right?
Like the actual the way you justsaid it was that you said this
is Cole's movie.
This is not Malcolm's movie.
That's the way you just said it.
And I think that you might saythe same about Nightmare on Elm
Street.
It's Nancy's movie.
It's not Freddie's movie.
(32:13):
And yet Freddie's the one whoends up sort of owning the
franchise and on people's shirtsand like getting quoted and
getting remembered.
And I think something similar ishappening here for maybe similar
reasons because one of thethings neuroscientifically I
think I'm not a neuroscientistbut I've been reading I'm
(32:34):
reading a book right now by aguy the what's his name Cole
Keyes he's the positivepsychology guy.
And one of the things that Ijust read last night was that
evolutionarily dopamine isaround so that we kind of
remember the thing that broughtthe pleasure like it helps like
lock in the memories.
(32:56):
I imagine that the other coreemotions evolutionarily it's
similar and so fear like when wehave those strong fear response
like our brain is like ohremember this because we might
need it later likeevolutionarily we need it to
remember what the saber-toothedtiger looks like.
And so that's why we rememberFreddie because he scared us.
(33:19):
And so that like emotion of thetwist around Malcolm and that
kind of like the shock and theawe and the like you know the
gears turning then also becomesthe moment of memory which gets
imprinted.
And that's why that's what Iremember even though I believe
you this is not Malcolm's movie.
(33:40):
But the way my brain is wired,the way everyone's brain is
wired so that we survive as aspecies means that that high
emotion moment of like I don'tknow what I don't know how to
name it because it's not quitefear.
It's like surprise and fear andand like realization.
But that moment of some dopaminehit actually it probably is that
(34:04):
satisfaction sears that twistinto our brains.
And since that's what theaudience was talking about and
that's what everybody was likedamn M night that was cool.
It's like no wonder that he tookthe wrong lesson because that's
what he got a response for.
So I just like I wanted to likejust circle back to that to
(34:26):
bring back other conversationswe have had and put them all
into a bigger conversation aboutsort of the way brains work.
Which doesn't mean that that'sthe best part of the story.
It just means that's the partthat got the biggest like
emotional response in the momentor the kind at least the kind of
emotional response that is tiedto memory making.
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:47):
Specifically so I'm sorry I interrupted your thought
about parenthood but it soundedlike you were ready to move on
to the next thing.
So that's why I wanted to circleback.
SPEAKER_02 (34:57):
That just in terms of storytelling part of the
reason why I say it's Cole'smovie and not Malcolm's is
because Cole has a characterarc.
He changes over the course ofthe film.
Malcolm it makes him theprotagonist.
Yeah yeah he does have arealization.
He's a realization and herectifies a wrong but he doesn't
(35:23):
grow or change.
SPEAKER_03 (35:24):
He doesn't grow or change who he is yeah I think
that fundamentally is what itmakes a protagonist.
SPEAKER_02 (35:30):
Yeah exactly agreed I want to talk about second
chances that's kind of what themovie's about throughout.
So Cole is Malcolm's secondchance at helping a haunted
child.
Mm-hmm I was thinking about andthis is something that bothered
me m from the beginning theteacher who yells at Cole and
(35:54):
calls him a freak.
Stanley Stanley first time I sawit I wondered what the heck
happened to that teacher becausethat's not okay.
Cole is nine.
If a dine year old can triggeryou probably shouldn't be
teaching nine year olds so likenow obviously like he triggered
(36:14):
something very deep in Stanleybut still and I always did
appreciate like coming back towhere Cole says to the teacher
thank you for casting me in thisplay and they have a
conversation about it.
The teacher is kind to him andthe woman who is helping Cole
with his makeup when she turnsher face is burned.
(36:36):
The teacher says to him Stanleysays to him like oh did you know
that there was a fire in thistheater when I was a student at
this school and Cole says yes Iknow.
One of the things that I kind ofappreciate is that both Stanley
and Cole are getting a secondchance here.
There's a like Cole is be isgiving grace to his teacher it
(36:57):
seems like his teacher must havebeen through something awful
considering the fact that firemust have been traumatizing.
Yeah.
Obviously Malcolm's getting thesecond chance Cole is giving his
mother second chance tounderstand her mother because
clearly there was some tensionbetween them, you know, just
(37:19):
based on the little that we hearwe see Anna Malcolm's wife
having like a kind of kind of asecond chance romance with the
man who works for her.
That's something that I think isinteresting and part of why it's
so important to recognize thatthis is Cole's story.
(37:39):
He embodies the ability to tryagain and he embodies the like
kind of childlike wonder andinnocence even though he's so
frightened like he is cut offcynical and scared and he
(38:01):
doesn't have friends.
He's isolated he's anxious andyet he is still open to joy and
wonder because he is there issomething still welcoming in him
to to goodness.
And that's again part of whatmakes this movie remarkable.
SPEAKER_03 (38:23):
I want to stick with something you just said about
Cole embodying the second chanceI think that's literal, right?
Because he's helping ghosts moveon.
And so there's there's a reallyinteresting like circular nature
to this sort of second chancethat goes with all of those
(38:44):
other things that I I think thethesis is that one needs that
openness in order to have asecond chance but also to help
others we need help for thatsecond chance.
Like all of those things arebaked into the metaphor of Cole
as an embodied second chancewhich is really interesting.
And and the fact that he seesall dead people right like he
(39:08):
has to be open to sort ofhelping who he comes upon in
order to be that embodiment of asecond chance.
There it requires an opennessand a grace and a curiosity and
I don't there's something likeas I'm saying it that I'm seeing
that's that's really, reallypowerful I think when you think
(39:29):
about and of course you wouldmake it a child.
He has to be a child.
Yes.
For the metaphor within thestory to work.
SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
Mm-hmm.
That gets to like childhood andbelieving children.
Yeah.
Because the reason why Malcolmfailed Vincent and why Cole
never spoke to his mother isbecause people don't believe
children.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (39:59):
We're talking about a ghost story here.
But this is true of real worldproblems as well.
SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
Yeah.
I don't know where to put that Idon't know where to put that I
can remember many years ago whenlike we were kids, we were
watching some movie that wasyeah like I don't even remember
where a kid made contact withaliens or something and tried to
tell their parents and and theparents of course didn't believe
them.
And I remember mom turning to megoing like I wonder if I believe
(40:30):
you the sort of thing where likeI I have even in like this
excellent parent-childrelationship between Lynn and
Cole he tries to tell her thetruth about the Bumblebee
pendant.
He says to her sometimes peoplethink they lose things and they
don't it just gets moved and shedoesn't she doesn't believe him.
(40:52):
And you know I have kids andthere are times when I know
they're lying to me but also ifyou're looking at his body
language he is so upset.
So it it's I'm not sure whereI'm going with this but our
(41:14):
culture, our society, ourmedical system, our judicial
system, our educational systemfails kids every single day
because we don't believe them,because it's easier not to or
because we think that that can'tpossibly be happening or
anything like that.
And I feel like stopping andtaking a minute and saying like
(41:37):
what if this were true isimportant and proceeding as if
it were.
SPEAKER_03 (41:43):
Yeah.
I think that's the importantbit, right?
Because even when Coles tellsMalcolm, I see dead people and
they don't know they're dead andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like there's a degree to whichhe's, oh shit, I gotta get him
as like a special as maybe hehas schizophrenia or whatever.
Maybe he's delusional.
But I think even if you thinkthat it may be delusions, like
(42:06):
obviously the kid believes it.
Maybe that's where he failed,Vincent, right?
Like I think that that's like Ithink about the times like my
daughter was at sleepaway campand she had a sore throat and
the counselor was like, you'refine, let's go play basketball.
She had strep throat.
Like the inconvenience, but likeone can kind of I feel like
(42:27):
there is an in-between groundsay like, okay, tell me more.
And like I believe that youbelieve this.
I'm not exactly sure what'shappening, but like let's go
with it.
Okay, your throat hurts.
Like tell me more.
You know, like I feel like thereare in-between I also totally
get why Lynn was angry when thebody language of him being so
(42:51):
uncomfortable and scared likeone could interpret that as
because he just got caughtstealing the bumblebee pendant
and not and lying about it.
SPEAKER_02 (43:01):
Well and that actually that gets to one other
thing that I a big part of thereason why Cole tells Malcolm he
doesn't talk to his motherbecause she doesn't look at him
like everyone else does likehe's a freak and he doesn't want
her to.
But you also get the impressionhe kind of wants to protect her
too.
Mm-hmm so he tells the story ofhe drew a picture once at school
(43:27):
where they could draw a pictureof whatever they wanted and he
drew a picture of a man puttinga screwdriver in the throat of
another man with blood.
And they had a meeting.
Yeah.
They had a meeting his momcried.
So he doesn't draw pictures likethat anymore.
He draws pictures of peoplesmiling, dogs running rainbows.
They don't have meetings whenyou draw pictures of rainbows.
(43:49):
So he is working to protect hismom because his mom works so
hard to protect him.
He knows how difficult Theirlife is for his mom.
So that's also a part of it aswell, is he knows it's
convenient for his mom to notbelieve him because of how
(44:13):
difficult their life is.
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (44:16):
You named parentification as a thing that
you wanted to talk about.
This feels like I feel likewe're getting into that.
I I noticed it too earlier whenyou were like, you named that
Cole gave teacher Stanley somegrace at the end with the play.
That like, is that really on thenine-year-old to give grace?
It should be.
SPEAKER_02 (44:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's the thing, like, Isay parentification.
Now the thing is it's not likeLynn's an excellent mother.
She's not doing this to himintentionally.
I'm not sure that ever isintentional.
Oh, well, I think someparentification is, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (44:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (44:53):
But he ends up taking on a protective role.
Right.
Because he's had to grow upbecause of what he knows about
dead people.
SPEAKER_03 (45:05):
Well, his condition, if you will, causes
adultification.
Yes.
Does it cause parentificationthough?
Because I they're two differentthings.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (45:16):
Well, I think he takes care of his mom in ways
that that she doesn't evenrealize.
She doesn't realize.
Yeah.
He has learned to protecthimself.
So like by drawing rainbows andthings like that, that is
partially protecting him, butalso protecting his mother.
And then I think by working withMalcolm, he is also learning to
(45:39):
protect other people that alsokind of protects himself.
So and that's what's happeningwith the teacher Stanley.
But also like being open tohaving a lovely conversation
with the woman who's helping himwith his makeup.
Is he is seeing like theconnections between these people
and can be a friend and see likesee Stanley as not just his
(46:07):
adult teacher, but also the kidwho went through something
traumatic and see him as a peeralmost.
SPEAKER_03 (46:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:15):
Because the woman would have seen, would have
known him as a small boy, right?
That's the adultification.
SPEAKER_03 (46:21):
That's an interesting way to frame it.
I like that.
We're running a little short ontime.
So there was a number ofpostcards that you gave that we
haven't quite gotten to.
Do you want to talk about thevisual metaphors?
Because I feel like that's athing that you tend to really
like in terms of like the craft.
SPEAKER_02 (46:36):
One thing that Shyamalan did very intentionally
was you talked about the coldand then the color red.
He used red intentionally torepresent like ghostly moments.
So there was the red of thedoorknob into the door into the
basement, which was whereMalcolm worked.
There was the red balloon thatCole followed up to where that
(47:01):
room was.
He was wearing a red sweaterthat day.
The antidepressants were redthat Anna was taking.
There's a tent that Cole hasmade for himself in his room
that he has filled with likereligious icons in the kind of
hope that that would keep theghosts out, that is made out of
(47:21):
a red bed sheet.
Bed sheet, or it's thicker thana bed sheet, it's like velvet.
The girl who finds him therelike destroys it.
The use of that color red isjust very visually striking and
helpful.
Another one that is like spoken,not shown, is coal.
(47:43):
It's C-O-L-E, but Cole is black.
A crow is black.
And Vincent Gray was thepatient.
So which I think is interesting.
I've always hated the name ColeSeer because I find it difficult
to put your mouth around, likeit's a stupid name, but he's a
seer.
SPEAKER_01 (48:03):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02 (48:04):
And so, like there I think that that was very much
intentional in the name.
SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
Yes.
Yeah.
Cool.
Well, we are out of time.
So let me quickly reflect backto you some of the things that
we talked about.
We started with the fact thatShyamalan took the wrong lesson
from this movie.
We spent quite a bit of timetalking about that.
That the way you put it was thisis an excellent movie that also
has a twist.
It wasn't excellent because ofthe twist.
(48:29):
And it seems from the rest ofhis career that Shyamalan
thought it was excellent becauseof the twist.
And so he was always trying torecapture that lightning in a
bottle.
I wondered if maybe part of thereason he took the wrong lesson
is because of the way our brainsmake memories around strong
emotions, in particular, thatsort of satisfaction of that
twist and that got audiencestalking, or the satisfaction of
(48:51):
being afraid, like Nightmare onElm Street.
I brought that in.
You spent some time talkingabout Lynn as an excellent
mother and some of the choicesaround her demography that maybe
are subversive to put thisexcellent mother in the body of
a lower income woman who likewears revealing clothing, who
(49:14):
has a working class accent, andthat those choices felt a bit
subversive to you, which Ithought was really interesting.
We spent some time talking aboutwhose story this is, whether
it's Cole's story, the child, orMalcolm's story, the adult
ghost.
And you convinced me that it isin fact Cole's story.
He is the protagonist becausehe's the one who grows and
(49:36):
changes.
Malcolm does realize somethings, but he fundamentally is
the same person at the end as hewas at the beginning.
We spent time talking aboutchildhood and adultification
versus parentification andbelieving children and the fact
that that ultimately is whyMalcolm failed.
(50:06):
We talked some about that, likewithin this movie, but also a
little bit broader.
You spent some time talkingabout ghost stories and the fact
that ghost stories are about theliving because the living tell
them and that they're oftenabout second chances.
And this movie very much isabout second chances, and that
Cole himself personifies,embodies a second chance, not
(50:28):
just for himself or for Malcolmor for that little girl who he
helped save her sister.
And part of that embodiment ishe has to be a child because it
requires an openness and awonder and a curiosity that we
often lose as adults.
We did not get to talk muchabout Philadelphia or about
(50:49):
gender in this film.
We did talk a lot about greatacting, including from Osmond,
who was only nine or 10 at thetime.
I am sure that in the shit weforgot to say about the Sixth
Sense, which is available topatrons over on our Patreon,
that you will go into moredetail about the things we
didn't get to and probably someother stuff if I know my sister.
(51:10):
I'm rushing because we're out oftime.
Next week, Emily, I'm going tobring you my deep thoughts about
E.T.
So we get to talk about morechild actors.
Awesome.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
(51:33):
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
(51:54):
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.