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Whether you like it or not, you're in the middle of a war that has been raging for the better part of a thousand years.
Tracie returned to the 2003 film Underworld to find a delightful – but maybe not very good – vampire and werewolves version of the Matrix. Starring Kate Beckinsale as Selene in skin-tight leather, Underworld is a visually beautiful, blue-tinged movie that marries some of the ideals of feminism with the same sexist tropes that feminism has been shining a light on since the invention of movies. Because so much of our storytelling requires badass women to fall in love with "chosen ones" rather than simply be the protagonists on their own.
The sisters also unpack an explicit fantasy allegory about interracial relationships that is well-meaning but perhaps not as effective as the movie-makers intended: race is made up, but the difference between werewolves and vampires is visible under a microscope. Sex and sexiness are also key topics of conversation, because vampires. And Kate Beckinsale. (Even though the feminism of a sexy Kate Beckinsale in skintight leather is definitely suspect.)
Though we cannot predict the future, the consequences of this episode will reverberate through 54 minutes of listening pleasure. So put on some headphones and stay out of the shadows.
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deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, feminism, women, fantasy, film, movies, storytelling, allegory, underworld, kate beckinsale, michael sheen, vampires, werewolves, race, analyzing film tropes, cult classic, cultural commentary, pop culture, film analysis, psychology
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I'm not sure it's a good movie.
(00:01):
In fact, I'm pretty sure it'snot a good movie.
But it is such an entertainingmovie.
And I think that world buildingthrough the cinematography,
through this, through the sets,through the costumes, is part of
what makes it so satisfying.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
(00:21):
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts about
Stupid Shit, because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
(00:42):
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 2003 movie Underworld withmy sister, Emily Guy Birken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
Listener, before we dive intoUnderworld, I'm gonna ask you
again, if you haven't yet,please take a moment and follow
the show on Apple Podcasts or onSpotify or wherever you get your
(01:04):
pods.
It's a free way for you to helpour show grow.
Thanks.
Now, Underworld.
Emily, I don't know.
Have you seen this movie?
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
I have, but I have only seen it once.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
And what is in your head?
What is in your head about thismovie?
I cannot wait to hear.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
So what's in my head about this movie is mostly like
six degrees of where have I seenthat actor.
So Kate Beckinsale, who I knowis like the main character in
this movie.
I think when I saw it, I waslike, how do I know her?
And she was she played hero inMuch Ado About Nothing, the
Kenneth Braun on Much Ado AboutNothing that I loved.
(01:49):
So, and then I know Bill Nye isin it as well, who was Billy
Mack in Love Actually.
Love Actually.
I now know Michael Sheen is init, but I did not know him at
the time.
I have since come to adore him.
I remember it being a very bluemovie.
This was like, I feel like thebeginning of when movies just
(02:10):
turned blue.
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
You mean literally the color blue?
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Literally the color blue.
Yes, I don't mean like bluehumor or anything like that.
I mean literally, you'rewatching it, it's like, why is
everything blue?
Um I remember there's vampires.
I remember there's blackleather.
That is about the extent of it.
Like that's that's what I got.
(02:33):
Um, I also happen to know thatthis is how Michael Sheen and
Kate Beckinsale met and thatthey have a child together.
That's it.
That's what I got.
So it's not much.
All right, all right.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Well, regular listeners may know that I
actually really love a vampiremovie.
Twilight being the exception isnot with the exception.
Because it's not really avampire movie.
Right.
But just in general, like theallegory.
Right.
Just in general, I love that Ilove the genre.
Like something about I thinkit's the dramatic irony of it.
(03:08):
Maybe, maybe it's because like Iactually really love sort of the
gothic aesthetic, even though Idon't think I could pull it off
myself.
I don't know what it is, but Ilove a vampire story.
And so this was on there becauseof that, because this was, you
know, one of those ones from theearly 2000s that I adored it
when it came out.
Like I just thought it was thebees sneeze in the early 2000s.
(03:29):
I've seen it a couple timessince.
I have not actually seen thereare four total movies, and I've
only ever seen the first one.
I'm going to have to rectifythat.
So we are only talking about thefirst one and things that maybe
get resolved in future movies.
I don't know.
I didn't do any of that.
Like I'm just talking about thisone piece of media from 2003.
So it turns out actually it'sgoing to be sort of interesting
(03:52):
in conversation with Highlanderthat we did just last episode.
But that was why it was on thelist.
And like when we were planninglast time, I was like, Oh, yeah,
the vampire movie.
I want to watch the vampiremovie again.
Nothing more complicated thanthat.
So that's why we're talkingabout it today.
I don't have a whole lot atstake, but I do love a good
vampire movie.
And I loved this one when itcame out.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
I remember that's how I ended up seeing it because
you were like, Oh, you gottawatch this, you gotta watch
this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:16):
So so I will say on Rewatch, this is not a good
film.
It is a very entertaining film,but it is not a good movie.
Um I have such fondness in myheart for those kinds of movies.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, that's part of why we dothis project, right?
I will say it's reallyinteresting, like the pitch
meeting.
(04:37):
I imagine the pitch meeting forthis movie.
They were like, okay, pictureit.
The matrix, but with vampiresand werewolves.
You with me?
And like that was the wholepitch.
Like, that's the movie.
The matrix, but with vampiresand werewolves.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Well, and that's why it looked blue, because the
matrix is blue.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
Is blue.
Yeah.
So a couple postcards from TheDestination, and then I will do
a quick synopsis mainly of thecharacters.
Um, because really so muchhappens in this movie.
If I tried to do from beginningto end in chronological order,
it would be much longer than wehave for this show.
It's it's just, it isaction-packed.
So some of the things I want todiscuss, I want to ask the
(05:17):
question is this a feministmovie?
Because there are things aboutit that definitely are, and
there are things about it,namely Kate Beck and Sale's
leather and corset outfit, whichmaybe aren't.
Hot, hot, yes.
Feminist?
I don't know.
So I want to have thatconversation.
I want to talk about this movieas an allegory for interracial
(05:40):
relationships.
And I actually want to, I don'thave a hot take.
I want to tease that apart withyou because I think it was
intentional and I don't know howsuccessful it was.
I want to talk about thecinematography of this film
because, especially after ourconversation last week about
Highlander, I watched this sortof hearing you in my voice
going, senior film student.
(06:03):
And there were a couple ofmoments that I definitely was
like that.
But also, it's veryentertaining.
I actually think there arevisually this movie is gorgeous.
So I want to like have thatconversation.
And like friend of the show,Ryan Cunningham, probably will
like take issue with thatbecause she has such a clear eye
of like the framing and setdesign and all the things that
(06:26):
like I just don't see.
So, Ryan, like, please, like, Iknow you're listening.
Like, let us know what I gotwrong.
We'll talk about gender becausewe have to be Kate Beckett's Ale
in that leather outfit.
We will talk about Michael Sheenbecause I love Michael Sheen.
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
All hail Michael Sheen.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
And I want to talk a little bit about the moral
ambiguity of a movie that'sabout a war between vampires and
werewolves, and like, who areyou supposed to root for?
Which so Roger Ebert hated thismovie.
He gave it two stars, and he waslike, by the end, I didn't even
care who won if it was thevampires or the werewolves.
(07:06):
And I actually think, Roger,that was the point.
Like you weren't, like everybodywas a bad guy.
So I want to talk about that alittle bit.
Before we get to all of thosethings, let me see if I can kind
of remind you a little bit ofthe plot.
So Kate Beckinsale's Celine isour narrator, and also I suppose
she's our protagonist.
(07:27):
Like she's certainly the maincharacter.
And so we get some narrationfrom her, some exposition.
We learn that vampires andlichens, which is this world
building's name for werewolves,are at war and they have been
forever, or for centuries, notforever, for centuries.
Celine herself is what is calleda death dealer.
(07:49):
She is a warrior in this war,and it is her job to kill
lichens, and she loves it.
And she lets us know that theweapons have changed, but the
task is the same.
And at one point there's thisline that's kind of lame, but I
don't know if it was thedelivery or the writing, but she
says, just like the weapons ofthe last century, we death
dealers will soon be obsolete.
(08:10):
Anyway, why will they beobsolete?
Because she's gonna exterminateall the lichen.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
She feels like it's that close.
So there's all this backstoryfrom centuries ago where the the
leader of the lichen, Lucian,died.
He was killed, and that sort ofended the worst of the fighting.
And since then, that was severalhundred years ago, since then,
(08:32):
it really had like all thelichen have been basically in
hiding, and these death dealershave been like seeking them out.
That's all an exposition.
And the first scene of the film,like, there's a lot of like
architectural gothic thingswhere she and another vampire
look like gargoyles on the topof these spires and stuff, but
then they drop down, and there'sthis huge shootout in a subway
(08:56):
with vampires and werewolves andlike running and jumping and
acrobatics and so many bullets,so many bullets.
So from the beginning, like it'sheart pounding from like the
first three minutes of the film.
Through the course of the film,we meet.
So Celine was turned by Victor.
(09:18):
He's one of three elders, andthey have a thing where that
they call leapfrogging throughtime, where only one is awake.
There are three of them in this,like they're two covens ruled by
these three elders, and only oneof the elders is awake at a
time.
The others go into this sort ofhibernation where they turn into
these like desiccated whatevercorpses, and so a century at a
(09:40):
time, and then the next onewakes up.
And so each of them is sleepingfor two centuries and awake for
one century.
We learn pretty quickly thatLucian, who's supposedly dead,
is not, in fact, dead.
That's Michael Sheen, but thelichen are all living
underground.
And the visuals of this movieset up a huge dichotomy between
these two species, and they callthemselves species.
(10:03):
The lichen live underground andit's very gritty and dirty and
like muted colors and likebrowns and grays and things, and
like dripping everywhere.
It's very gritty.
And the vampires live in amansion with like luscious rugs,
and they're all dressed verysexy, but very like luxe, with
(10:26):
like lots of like corsets andthe men in these like velvet
shirts, and it's it's very likelavish, yes, in the mansion
where the vampires live in likefancy cars and everything.
And the head of the house rightnow, while Victor, who sired
Celine, is sleeping orhibernating, whatever it is that
(10:48):
they're doing when he's down inthe thing.
The head of the house whileVictor's asleep is a vampire
named Craven.
And you can tell by his name,he's a villain.
Craven wants Celine to be hispartner, and she wants nothing
to do with him.
Like, she just is not interestedin this dude.
(11:09):
But he's like, I want you by myside, you're gonna be my future
queen, like all this stuff.
Like, he just like will not takea hint.
Like, this chick's not into you,dude.
Erica, played by Sophia Miles,who I did that sort of six
degrees like while I waswatching it this time.
She wants to be the queen.
Like, she is like, Yes, me,hello, me, me, me.
(11:32):
And she keeps trying to like getCraven's attention.
And so there's some, it's noteven a rivalry because Celine's
not interested.
So Erica has some feelings aboutCeline, but anyway.
We also meet Michael, that's thecharacter's name.
He's played by Scott Speedman.
He's human, and the lichen aretracking him.
(11:52):
And Celine sort of figures outthat these lichen are tracking
this human, and she's like,something's weird.
Why is this happening?
And Craven's like, Don't youworry your pretty head about it.
And she's like, No, I'm notlistening to you.
Something's weird.
And so she figures out that thisguy is being tracked.
And we learn through the courseof like her trying to, like,
she's gonna go get the dude, thehuman dude, Michael.
(12:14):
And so she ends up in a shootoutwith this amazing scene that is
iconic where she's like trapped.
And so she shoots, she has twopistols, guns, I don't know what
kind of, I don't know, firearmsthat she's holding in each hand,
and she shoots a circle aroundherself so that the floor falls
down, and that's how sheescapes.
And it's amazing.
Anyway, it's a shame how muchyou don't like this film.
(12:39):
Michael, like, he gets caughtand escapes, and like all sorts
of things happen.
Finally, Lucian, Michael Sheen,decides he has to do it himself.
So he gets Michael and bites himand gets some of his blood in
his mouth.
And we learn that there was thislegend of this man named
Corvinus, who somehow had thisgenetic mutation that allowed
(13:03):
him to survive a plague.
He had three sons, one becamevampire, one became a werewolf,
and one remained human.
So this like common ancestor forall three.
So Lucian and the Lycan havebeen seeking out a descendant, a
human descendant, because theywant to try and like merge the
species.
He wants to end the war byeliminating the difference.
(13:26):
And so they have like a board,you know, like a murder board
sort of thing with all like thestrings and stuff.
So so Michael's last name isCorvin, and it turns out he is a
direct descendant of thisoriginal person.
So they've been trying to gethis blood because when lichen
blood and vampire blood are puttogether, both die.
So if a vampire were to bite awerewolf, he would die and vice
(13:48):
versa.
So that's like sort of going onthe background.
That's like world building andlike creating the conflict in
the plot.
So meanwhile, Celine savesMichael from Lucian, Michael
Sheen.
But then Michael saves Celinebecause she gets injured and
loses a lot of blood and passesout while driving and they fall
into a river, a lake.
(14:09):
I don't know.
So he saves her from the water.
So now they've saved each other.
So shenanigans ensue, andthere's lots and lots of
fighting.
And then we learn that the manVictor, the vampire who turned
Celine, who she believes savedher from werewolves, who killed
(14:30):
her entire family, her mother,her father, her sister, and her
sister's twin daughters, whowere six, she believes Victor
saved her from them.
And it turns out he's the onewho killed them.
And he didn't kill her becauseshe reminded him of his
daughter, Sonia.
Sonia was married to Lucian.
(14:50):
Sonia the vampire was married toLucian, the werewolf.
And when Victor, Sonia's father,discovered this and discovered
that she was pregnant, heexecuted her in front of Lucian.
So this is all a backstory.
Celine didn't know because it'sforbidden to look into the past.
So there's so many conspiracies.
(15:30):
It's an action movie, so andshe's the star.
So obviously she has to save aman and then fall in love with
him because that's how thesethings work.
So there's a romance betweenthem, which some commentators
have said is like totally flatand doesn't work.
I actually did see thechemistry, and there is a moment
where she asks about a pictureshe saw of Michael and another
(15:51):
woman, and he tells a storyabout how he she was his
significant other, we don'tknow, wife or fiance or what,
but like died in a car crashright next to him.
Like he was unable to save her,and she kept asking about like,
so he watched her die.
And then Celine tells the storyabout being saved and like her
entire family.
So they have that sort of sharedbackground trauma.
(16:12):
Trauma.
And then they go through traumatogether.
So I actually did believe thesort of romance between them.
He's been bitten by a lichen, sohe's going to turn into a
lichen.
So she's actually like her jobis to kill this guy.
She doesn't want to because nowshe has feelings for him.
The whole thing goes downunderground in this gritty, it's
(16:33):
always raining in this unnamedcity where they are.
And there's this huge fightbetween Celine, Victor, Michael,
and Lucian.
Craven runs away because that'swho he is.
Lucian is dying.
He's been shot with a bulletthat had like liquid silver in
it.
So it's in his bloodstream.
So he is dying.
And Michael has been shot aswell by Kraven.
(16:57):
And Celine is like, all shecares about, like Craven's like,
come on, come with me.
And she's she's like, not shedoesn't even give him the time
of day like to look at him.
She's just focused on Michael.
He runs away when he realizesVictor's coming, and Lucian
says, bite him.
Lucian says to Celine, biteMichael, because he has this
special power.
(17:17):
So she does, and he turns intothis crazy black monster.
And then there's a huge fight.
Celine now knows that Victor isthe one who killed her family.
And he's like, Yes, I took fromyou, but I gave you so much
more.
And there's this big choreographfight between like Michael,
who's now has like black skin,not like brown skin, like a
human person that we call black,but like the color black, like
(17:40):
blue black and like black eyes,because he's both vampire and
werewolf now.
And like the violence of likethe power of this choreograph
fight scene is intense, wherelike they throw each other
against columns and like cementshatters, sort of sounds like
the Highlander thing with thesparks, except I believed it.
And then like Victor seems tosort of be winning, but then
(18:03):
Celine sees Victor's sword andshe picks it up.
And this is another iconicscene.
This is the one that stayed withme.
And she does this acrobatic flipwhere she jumps around and over
him and he like stands up andfaces her.
Victor's facing Celine.
They're probably 15 feet apartat this point, and he's just
sort of blinking at her.
And then she shows him that thesword has blood on it, and he
sort of blinks, and blood sortof bubbles up in a line, a
(18:26):
diagonal line from above hisleft ear, probably above one of
his ears, down to like belowlike his jawline on the other
side, like a diagonal line.
And then that top half of hishead just sort of slides off.
SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
Gross.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Gross.
Like while he's still blinkingat her.
And then we see sort of thelichen are kind of like in the
shadows.
They had been sort of watchingand they sort of recede.
And the movie ends with sheretrieves a necklace that had
been Sonia's the dead daughter.
(19:00):
And we hear her kind ofvoiceover again, sort of saying,
What happened tonight is gonnareverberate for centuries, and
now I'm gonna become the hunted.
There's a lot more.
There's like one of the othervampire elders is ambushed that
Craven arranged because hewanted to sort of take over.
There's how we learn about Soniabeing killed by Victor, is
(19:21):
because when Lycan bites you,you kind of get some of their
memories.
And so Michael actually nowremembers when Lucian had to
witness his.
So that becomes sort of asympathetic moment between them
because Lucian is like akidnapper and like like Michael
Sheen's character, like in thebeginning, you're like, Do I
like this guy?
(19:41):
Is he sympathetic?
But then the backstory makes himvery sympathetic.
He tells a story that we used tobe enslaved.
The werewolves used to be theslaves of the vampires.
They were the daytime guardians.
And he didn't even, he was borninto servitude and he wished
them no ill will, even took avampire as his bride.
But then when Victor did what hedid, like that was the start of
the war.
(20:02):
And so we see at one point whenMichael and Celine are reunited.
Michael says, I know whatstarted the war because he feels
as though he was there becausehe had that memory.
And we know that that memorypasses on when Celine wakes
Victor outside of theappropriate chain, like more
than a century early, and itwasn't his turn.
But she wants his guidancebecause she suspects Craven is
(20:25):
guilty of something.
And so to do that, she gives himsome blood, this corpse, some
blood.
There's this whole likemechanism that's it's actually
really neat the way they thoughtit through.
And with it comes his memories.
And the reason they only haveelders wake the other elders is
because they have the skill tolike, I don't know, somehow
arrange their memories so thatwhen the blood goes, it's like
(20:45):
coherent.
That's actually kind ofinteresting.
She talks to herself in themirror.
She talks to Victor in themirror so that he will have that
memory.
And so there's a lot in therethat, like, go watch the movie
if this sounds at allinteresting to you, if you
haven't seen it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Come to think of it.
I do remember Bill Nye'scharacter being like a betrayer.
Like, I remember that being likethe plot twist of and it's a
huge betrayal because she thinksof him as a father.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
He saved her.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:15):
And that's why she's lived the way she's lived for
centuries.
And it was all a lie.
Like he couldn't bear, like theyhad the rules for the vampires
is they only feed on livestock,but like he didn't like that.
So every once in a while, Craventells Celine this.
He would, every once in a while,he would go out and binge on
humans.
And and it was Craven's job tolike clean up after him.
And that's how Craven knows thatthis is the case.
(21:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
unknown (21:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
So that's sort of the backstory.
And there's so much more.
I if there are specific thingsthat I you need to know for the
analysis, I'll bring them back.
But I don't want to spend anymore time there.
That was our that was enough.
So let me start with where Istarted the postcards, which is
is this a feminist film?
Here are the ways it is afeminist film.
The vampire.
Story, the trope, the kind ofseed that we have is this
(22:05):
powerful seductive man whopossesses in some way a
submissive woman.
Right?
Like that is the Dracula story.
That was the fear that this likepure woman then becomes sort of
seduced.
And there's there's sexuality init, but there's also like
(22:26):
dominance and submission.
And like all of that is kind ofhovering around the vampire
story.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
And there's the financial power as well.
The vampire, in the way we havereceived it, is powerful in so
many ways.
And that power is exercised overhis female victim.
Celine breaks all of that,right?
Like she is powerful.
(22:54):
She's the one who holds thepower.
And even when the other vampire,Craven, is trying to exert his
vampiric power over her, she'slike, no, I don't just just
know.
Like, not even like there is noapology.
There's no like, oh man, I know.
And like, I mean, she even saysto at one point to Victor, like,
(23:16):
Craven will not leave me alone.
Like, he's just, he's obsessedwith me, and I can't take it.
And so that kind of like,frankly, more realistic.
I mean, sometimes the sometimesthe attention is wanted.
Erica would have loved to haveCraven's attention in that way.
(23:37):
But when it's not, it's not.
And it's not like you get worndown and now love him, which is
the what we're often given, youknow?
SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
I don't know if the listeners could probably could
not hear my eye roll, although Ifeel like it should have been
audible considering how big itwas.
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
I mean, we we get that story so often, right?
So often.
Celine, like, just blows throughthat with her giant gun.
You know, like she just, she'sjust just no.
And so in that that subversionby making her a vampire or
making her, you know, this way,and she's like extremely sexy.
(24:15):
I mean, so friggin' sexy, butnot interested in the sort of
dominant male at all.
And so, in that sense, I feellike there is a certain amount
of feminism.
There's a certain a feministimpulse, at least, even just as
powerful as she is, likephysically powerful, and the way
(24:40):
that she like defies conventionand defies the rules of this man
feels really powerful.
Here's the way it's notfeminist.
It does not pass back to test.
Or if it does, it just squeaksby.
So there is, there are two othernamed female characters: Amelia,
who's one of the other elderswho does not speak.
(25:01):
She only dies.
And Erica, who I've mentioned,and they do talk to one another.
Erica and Celine do talk to oneanother, but almost exclusively
about men, either Craven orMichael.
There's like one line whereErica's like, come on, we need
to get you dressed for theparty, or you should wear this
dress.
Like, so they do talk about adress.
(25:23):
But like, yeah, it's like I sortof feel like maybe Allison would
be okay.
Alison Bechtel would be okaywith me adding that to the her
test.
Like, are there at least twonamed female characters?
Do they talk to each other anddo they talk to each other about
something other than a man, aboy, or what they're wearing?
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Or makeup.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
I feel like maybe Alison Bechtel would be okay
with me adding that.
So in that way, it's notfeminist.
It also like she is so sexy.
Like she is a walking sexobject, Kate Beckinsale in this
movie.
Like they have her poured intothis leather or maybe vinyl like
cat suit and then a corset overtop.
It is hot.
(26:04):
I mean, like, it is really hot.
And so her power comes with thisobjectification.
And I am not, I think regularlisteners will know that I do
not believe that sexuality orlike showing female sexuality is
anti-feminist.
But it definitely feels likemale gaze with Kate Beckinsale
(26:25):
in this movie.
Yeah.
The other thing is, as I sort ofmentioned before, like it's an
action movie starring a woman.
So of course she's gonna save aman and fall in love with him.
Like this is, I don't know ifanybody else is using this
phrase, but you and I sometimeswill talk about the love struck
should be leader or hero.
The love struck should beleader.
Like Trinity is one in theMatrix, which it makes sense now
(26:47):
that Caden Beckons out, becausethis is definitely a Matrix
ripoff.
And in the in the Lego movieWild style.
I think Hermione eventuallybecomes one.
Yeah, Hermione is one.
She's not love struck from thebeginning, but eventually like
she goes for Ron.
What?
Anyway, sorry, that's an aside.
This is a trope that happens, Ithink, where you have this super
(27:10):
capable.
Princess Leia.
Yeah, yeah.
You have this super capablewoman who should be the leader,
but instead she is the loveinterest for the leader, and she
likes supports and and saves hisleadership.
So she falls into that trope.
And that doesn't feel feministto me.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
So you're saying that she's the love struck would
be leader.
Who is the leader?
Is it Michael?
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Yeah.
I mean, he's the sort of likechosen one.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
Chosen one.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:37):
Yeah.
So he is not a leader, sort ofby the end of the movie.
There kind of isn't one.
She has she's destroyed.
She's destroyed Victor.
Craven has run off.
And Lucian dies or dead.
He dies.
He dies.
Um Lucian dies.
So and the third elder hasalready died, too, right?
No, there is a third elder.
(27:59):
The the movie actually ends, thesets up for the next movie
beautifully, which I really needto go watch it.
They killed one of the likeelder lichen who had been
helping with this experiment tofind Michael Corvin.
They killed him in the kind ofsleeping chambers.
And so we see that his blood,the lichen's blood, like drips
(28:21):
down to the final elder who'sstill living, Marcus.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
And we see his lichen elder elder.
SPEAKER_01 (28:28):
No, the final vampire elder.
Vampire elder elder.
The lichen elders don't sleep.
The vampire elders.
It's three vampire elders whosleep, who sleep frog through
time.
Gotcha.
So, and we see his eyes open.
So Marcus is being awakened bywerewolf blood.
And the werewolf memories willcome with that.
(28:50):
So who knows?
Whoever's seen the next movieknows.
I don't know how that's gonnaplay out because I haven't seen
the next movie.
But they do set that up reallybeautifully, I think.
You know, in terms of likesatisfying storytelling, anyway.
Because it was unintentional.
They have like Celine killed theguy.
Celine brought him and was likeinterrogating him to prove to
(29:14):
Victor, because Victor was stillbelieving Craven.
So she like catches this lichenand brings him to the chamber.
So Michael, though, is thechosen one.
They don't use that terminology.
But because he has this specialblood, you know.
That's what he represents in thestory.
He represents the chosen onebecause now he is the first of
(29:36):
the new hybrid species whichLucian had been working for.
So the other thing that I wantto bring up in the question of
is this a feminist movie?
It doesn't pass back tell, butthere are a lot of unnamed
female vampires that we see.
Many.
We don't see a single femalewerewolf.
(29:56):
Not one.
And I have to think, I read thisand it just really rings true.
Some commentator was like, Ihave to imagine that hairy women
was a thing that movie execswere like, nah, don't do that.
And given the way Kai Beckinsalland all the other vampires,
female vampires, look in thismovie, like, yep, that's what
(30:20):
happened.
They were like, femalewerewolves, not sexy.
Let's not have any.
You know, because there's thisone scene in the very beginning
when we first meet Lucian inperson.
The werewolves, they'reunderground and they're like
having a fight club, but like aswerewolves, because when they've
been werewolf long enough, theycan turn at well.
They don't need the moon.
So they're like having like afight club as werewolves.
(30:43):
And so he comes in, like shootsa shotgun in the air and was
like, You're behaving like rabiddogs.
And there's these two verywell-built men who've been
fighting.
They're like got little bloodscratches and stuff, looking
sheepish.
And he says their names, I don'tremember, and he says, put some
clothes on.
And we can see that like thecamera angle ends like very
strategically.
(31:04):
Like there's a line, like rightat like where that like the V of
the thigh gap and a little,maybe even maybe even I maybe I
saw a hint of pubic hair on oneof my maybe, I don't know.
Sheen, Michael Sheen pulls itoff so beautifully.
I was like, oh, you littledevil.
He like his eyes dart down andthen back up, and he says, put
(31:24):
some clothes on.
So male werewolves can be sexy,but obviously female werewolves
can be sexy.
So that's another thing thatlike I'm extrapolating a little
bit, but I'm gonna, I'm willingto say, like, that's like a not
feminist thing about this moviethat like we couldn't get any
(31:48):
female werewolves.
So, like, there's tension here.
Like, Celine is a badass, she'samazing, and like in many ways,
subverts patriarchy and likeliterally beheads it.
And in other ways, she fallsright into it, you know, with
this like poured into thisleather outfit, you know?
(32:10):
So, anyway, that's I thinkthat's enough.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
I do want to stick with this for a second.
Okay, okay.
So, one thing I'm thinking aboutis the way that vampires, like
the metaphor that vampiresrepresent in our culture, and
this is partially because Ibelieve Bram Stoker himself was
not necessarily heterosexual, isvampires represent kind of
degenerate sexuality in ourculture.
(32:36):
And so the fact that there isthe idea that vampires prey on
defenseless women, but withinthe original Dracula story,
Dracula also preyed on JonathanHarker.
And there is that sense ofpredation of like gay male
(32:59):
predation as well.
And so I kind of want to stickwith this just a little bit and
kind of tease out like the kindof queer lens of this as well.
Added to that, something that'sinteresting to think about
werewolf mythology is if youconsider the fact that
werewolves are associated withthe moon.
(33:21):
Sort of feminine energy, maybefeminine energy periods, because
they turn into a monster once amonth.
And so the fact that thesewolves are all male is
interesting.
And then the fact that ourprotagonist's name is Selene,
which means moon.
(33:41):
Mmm.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
And so, like, all of thattogether is very interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (33:48):
And the leather add to that is is also kind of well,
I'm glad you brought up the factthat that vampires are often
associated with sort ofdegenerate sexuality or
sexuality in general, becausethat definitely is the case with
these vampires in this film,right?
Like there's a scene where Ericatries to sort of seduce Craven.
And, you know, it's very tame bytoday's standards.
(34:10):
Like she ends up topless, but wedon't actually see anything.
And she's sitting on his lap,but he they both still have
pants on, but they're likemaking out and he bites her
neck, which is that cool whenyou bite another vampire's
anyway.
So the sexuality piece of it,it's really interesting that you
brought that in because the thevampires in this film definitely
(34:32):
read as sexual.
There is a sense that all ofthese vampires who live in this
coven are having sex with oneanother.
We don't see that, it's justsort of like implied, yeah,
yeah.
And versus the werewolves whoare all male.
And the homoeroticism is inthese fights or a fight that we
(34:54):
see between them.
So that's there, but it's all ofthe subversions are really
interesting because you'repointing out that the werewolf
kind of becomes sort ofassociated with women, and we've
got only male werewolves.
And there is a homoeroticism tothe fight scene, especially with
Michael Sheen's acting choices,the way he looks at us down.
(35:15):
And yet it's also couched inalmost a hyper masculinity with
the fighting, and they weredoing it like a bunch of other
guys were watching in theirhuman forms and like goading
them on in that in that very,very early fight scene.
So that's sort of an interestingthing.
And I also think I was tellingmy um physical therapist
actually this morning that I hadwatched this movie to do this
(35:37):
thing, and she says, I fell inlove with Kaylee Beckinsale in
that movie.
She's so hot in that movie.
So, you know, when you say like,or a queer lens for this, it's
interesting too.
Like I read Beckinsale's costumedesign as male gaze, but it's
worth sort of taking a beat andsaying, like, yeah, and she is
desired by this male vampire,like deeply desired by him.
(36:01):
But you know, there's nothingthere.
Like her only friend seems to beMichael, but she and Erica do
seem to have some kind of likeat one point, Erica like helps
her escape because Craven hasher on lockdown.
And Celine says, Why are youhelping me?
And Erica says, I'm not, I'mhelping myself.
So, like the surface read isthat Erica's getting her arrival
(36:25):
out of the way, and wedefinitely see that.
But there's also something of a,I think, more than that between
these the two women, some sortof friendship or something.
So, anyway, thank you forkeeping us with this.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
Yeah, I mean, to what your physical therapist
said, there could be a read thatKate Beckinsell, her character
is queer as well, in that shefalls for someone who is not
like her.
And who is forbidden.
Who is forbidden, yeah.
So in the same way that thedaughter that she was created to
(37:02):
replace, yeah, also was queer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Yeah, let's let's actually let's jump to the
daughter.
Let's talk about the daughterbecause I think that there's a
degree to which this wasintended as an allegory about
interracial relationships.
Like Victor, Bill Nye'scharacter, says, I loved my
daughter, but the abominationthat was growing in her womb I
could not allow to exist.
I did what I did for thespecies.
(37:29):
And he says that's what he'sgonna do now when he kills
Michael.
And so, you know, you don't haveto be a film critic to sort of
see that, right?
And Noble, I guess, you know,that they want to do that.
They they made this man verymuch the villain for having
policed the interspeciesrelationships the way that he
(37:51):
did.
It's very clear.
The movie makers make it veryclear that he's in the wrong.
And it's sort of an interestinglike, is this a useful allegory,
really?
Like, there are no femalewerewolves as far as we can see.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure.
I'm not sure like where to gowith it.
Cause like the backstory isreally at the individual level,
(38:14):
at the personal level level,that Lucian was forced, he was
in chains to watch his beloveddie.
It's a powerful story.
When we zoom out as an allegory,right, like with the servitude
and where they are now, youknow, with the lichen living
underground in very like muddy,dirty, sewer type, you know,
(38:39):
areas versus the vampires up inthe mansion.
There are layers to it, which ifwe are taking it as allegory,
like it's complicated.
It's complicated.
I'm not sure how I feel aboutit.
And, you know, they're verycareful.
The casting was very careful.
There are black werewolves,black people playing werewolves,
(39:02):
and there are black peopleplaying vampires.
We have both.
We even have a couple of atleast one Asian vampire.
So they were very careful.
I mean, our our main charactersare all white, but you know,
sort of the supportingcharacters are multiracial.
And in fact, like the number twowerewolf is played by Kevin
(39:23):
Grivaux.
He's like that really big guy,big black guy with like a really
deep voice.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
One of those six degrees of where do I know that
actor.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
Yeah.
He might be the Green Mile guy.
Anyway, I never saw the GreenMile.
And then one of the vampires whoCeline trusts, who's like the
weapons expert guy, is a is ablack actor.
So, which only supports my sensethat this being an allegory
about interracial relationshipswasn't purpose.
(39:55):
You know.
So I don't know that I haveanywhere else to go with this.
I'm not sure it holds up, but Iappreciate that they tried.
I actually do.
And like, as I say, in theindividual characters, I do
think it's a really powerfulstory.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
So it's kind of like uh in the way Zootopia was
trying to be an allegory.
It's one of those where anyallegory falls apart if you look
too closely at it and can be alittle offensive if you take it
to its logical conclusion.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
Because it it creates an essentialism, like
because race is made up.
Yes.
Race is made up.
Yes.
But the difference between avampire and a werewolf, okay,
that's made up.
But in the world building ofthis universe of this film, it's
not made up.
It is there are like realbiological differences.
Yes.
And so it's like land beforetime, right?
(40:50):
Like Daddy Triceratops wasright.
Triceratops don't play with longnecks because they live to
different time periods, right?
Like, like there actually is ameasurable scientific
difference.
I know I'm saying scientificdifference about vampires and
werewolves, but within thismovie, there's a lot of science,
actually.
There is a lot of science withinthis movie.
(41:10):
Whereas there is no measurablescientific difference between
the races.
And so the allegories, like,actually, in some ways, the
allegory reifies the racism.
Yes.
Because it implies thedifference is more substantial
than it truly is.
Racism is real.
Like racism is measurable.
(41:31):
Race is not.
And so I think that's that thankyou for pushing me to articulate
that a little bit more clearly.
SPEAKER_00 (41:38):
Yeah.
And so, like, that doesn't makeallegories useless.
SPEAKER_01 (41:42):
Right.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
It's just, you know, when filmmakers and storytellers
do have these allegories, weneed to like push back on them
somewhat to be like, okay, thisis helpful, but we need to know
where the end of the helpfulnessis.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (41:57):
Precisely.
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
That's precisely it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:59):
That's precisely it.
Okay.
I want to spend a couple ofminutes talking about the
cinematography in this filmbecause it's actually really
fun.
And like the pitch meeting thatI named at the beginning, like,
for reels, like the Matrix meetsvampires and werewolves.
Like, there are several momentsthat are use that sort of slow
(42:19):
motion, like close-up kind ofaction or of bullets.
Bullet time is what they callit.
Is that what they call it?
Um, that was, I think, inventedby the It was the Wachowski
sisters.
The Wachowski sisters in the inthe Matrix movies.
Like it's not precisely bullettime because it's it's not the
but it's like sort ofreminiscent of that.
(42:42):
There are a couple of momentswhere we actually like the
camera, I'm putting quotesaround that, goes inside the
body.
And there's like CG of like,like when the vampire is waking
up, we see the heart start tobeat and like the tissue start
to expand.
Or like when Michael is firststarting to turn his first time,
(43:03):
like the camera, again, quotes,goes inside his body, and we see
his ribs, like the bonesactually expanding, and like,
and it's cut between like himlike writhing and like pulling
up a shirt to look at his ribcage and like like these inner
workings, or there's severalscenes that are from the POV of
a werewolf like stalking Celine.
(43:25):
So kind of like like blurryaround the edges.
Like, I don't know what that'scalled, like, but that sort of
vignette focus, like around likein a little shaky camera work
around corners and stuff.
I don't know.
I'm not a cinematographer, Idon't know if that's good, but
it works.
Like my heart was pounding.
It really worked, and so I justwant to name that like the movie
(43:49):
makers committed to the goth,and like it is deeply
entertaining.
Like the movie opens on Celine,like sort.
Of half squatting in this likeskin tight leather up on the
ramparts of like a church orsomething with they all wear
(44:09):
like duster coats, like longduster coats.
And so she's wearing one andit's sort of flapping in the
wind.
And it's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
It's so beautiful.
It's like, I mean, inspiresthousands of uh Halloween
costumes that year.
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
She like back and sale in the outfit is hot, but
that's not what that like thatmoment, that scene, that visual
is not actually about the sexappeal.
It is sexy, but that's not, Idon't think, the primary note.
It's gothic is the primary note.
(44:48):
And there's something likedeeply satisfying about the like
gothic architecture and thisleather clad woman and the sort
of flapping in the way, likewhat's moving and what's not,
and the different textures andthe like the blueness of it, as
you named, that's just really,really beautiful.
And this, the world buildingthat is achieved through the
(45:09):
cinematography, and it's in partthrough the story, but it's also
through the cinematography, Ithink, and the sets.
The sets were incredible.
The sets, the cinematography,create this world building that
is just, I found it deeplycompelling.
Roger Ebert hated it.
So maybe you have to have acertain sort of like aesthetic
to appreciate it.
But it's this unnamed city thatlike you're like, is it New
(45:33):
York?
Maybe it's New York.
But the cars have license platesthat look more like Europe, but
they're driving on the thedriver's side is on the correct
side for Americans.
So it's not London.
It's not London, but like itcould be London, like with these
narrow streets and there's somewater.
And the accents, right?
(45:54):
Like they all have different,like the vampires all have
different accents.
Like I think Craven soundsAmerican, and I think Erica
sounds American, but like allthe others sound different kinds
of British.
So it does create this otheruniverse for you through all of
these different factors that, asI said, like I'm not sure it's a
(46:17):
good movie.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it'snot a good movie, but it is such
an entertaining movie.
And I think that world buildingthrough the cinematography,
through this, through the sets,through the costumes is part of
what makes it so satisfying,that world building piece of it.
The last thing I want to talkabout that I haven't yet is the
(46:39):
moral ambiguity.
Right?
Like you make a movie about awar between vampires and
werewolves.
Who are the good guys?
Right?
Both of them feed on humans,right?
And interestingly, like weactually don't see them.
We don't see them hurt humansmostly.
(46:59):
A little bit, a little bit.
But the humans who get hurt inthis movie are kind of caught in
the crossfire.
They're not actually theintended targets of any of the
violence.
So they're killing each other.
And it's a high body count.
Like a lot of vampires andwerewolves die in this movie.
A lot.
And so, you know, whenwerewolves immortal in this?
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
Yes.
Like like vampires?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (47:21):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
In fact, so they are vulnerableto silver, but they can
regenerate if they can get itout.
So in fact, at one point, likeCeline takes Michael to a house
where they do interrogations,she says.
So she thinks it'll be safe.
And they're like, there'sevidence of like operations and
like bullets in a pan.
(47:42):
And he's like, What's all this?
She says, Well, if we leave thesilver in, then they die before
we can get any answers.
So we take the bullets out, youknow, for the interrogation.
And then he's like, Well, whatdo you do when the
interrogation's over?
She says, We put the bulletsback in, which I like saw coming
and and still enjoyed that shesaid it.
Um, so I almost I feel likeRoger Ebert in his
(48:05):
contemporaneous review, when hewas like, I don't know who I was
supposed to be rooting for, andI really didn't care, you know,
vampires or or werewolves inthis war.
And like, I think that RogerEbert like missed the point.
Like, I think that actually iskind of the point.
I think that's sort of what wasinteresting to the movie makers
because it it has a noir vibe toit.
And there are no good guys innoir, right?
(48:26):
Like, I think that's especiallywith her voiceover.
Like it, it's like gothic matrixnoir with vampires and
werewolves.
I really wish I could have heardthe pitch meeting.
So, you know, I I think thatthat moral ambiguity is actually
inherent to the story.
I think that's like that's partof why you tell a vampire and
(48:48):
werewolf story.
Lucian, Michael Sheen'scharacter, is the most
sympathetic character, even moreso than Celine, because we get
the sense that he was justtrying to live his life with his
beloved, and then like he wasthrust into being a villain.
Yeah.
And you never really get thesense that it's villainy.
(49:09):
Like, once you understand what'smotivating him, it it always
feels like he's working towardssomething, and there are
consequences, but it like thereis no cruelty in him, unlike all
of the other characters, Ithink, aside from Michael, the
human who becomes both.
So Michael Sheen's Lucian andScott Speedman's Michael are the
(49:31):
only two who have no crueltywithin them.
So, like, yeah, of course youdon't know who you root for,
Roger.
Like, they're all bad guys.
That's the point.
And that's sort of what's Ithink meant to be interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
So one of the things I find tragic about vampire
stories is like, and why I getfrustrated by like Twilight is
like turning a human into avampire is a tragedy.
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (49:56):
And right it should be treated as such because it
turns them into a monster, acruel monster.
SPEAKER_01 (50:01):
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
And that you know, it it'sinteresting that you say that
too, because it there's a momentwhere Victor, Selena's like, how
could you have done this to me?
How could you have like donethis and then taken my trust
after what you did?
And he's like, Yeah, I took fromyou, but I gave you so much
more.
I gave you immortality, isn'tthat worth it?
And like the viewers, like, no,to your point, to exactly your
(50:23):
point.
Yeah.
So so yeah, yeah, Roger, you gotit.
Good job.
SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
Um, so that's probably other movies that day.
SPEAKER_01 (50:31):
So no doubt, no doubt.
So those were the things Iwanted to talk about.
I definitely have some stuff forthe shit we forgot to say.
So, listener, if you are not yeta patron, head on over to our
Patreon and you can hear moreabout Underworld in our extra
patron exclusive shit we forgotto say uh bonus.
Before that, let me just remindyou of what we talked about.
(50:53):
So, feminist question mark.
There's a lot of things that arefeminist about this movie, the
ways in which Celine likesundermines the tropes of the
vampirism myth that has thisvery powerful man exert power
over a vulnerable woman.
(51:13):
She blows that out of the water.
She literally decapitatespatriarchy.
She is also the object of ourgaze as an object.
The object of our gaze as anobject.
That's kind of a anyway.
Um, she also should be theleader and is instead this sort
of love-struck support for thechosen one.
(51:35):
And that sort of subverts thefeminist move.
She is a badass feminist.
She doesn't have any femalefriends and doesn't talk to any
other women named women aboutanything other than a man or her
dress.
Not feminist.
So that's sort of going onthere.
We talked about this as anallegory of interracial
(51:57):
relationships and the ways inwhich that like is helpful and
the ways the edges of thehelpfulness, namely that race
isn't real, but the differencebetween, at least in this movie,
the difference between vampiresand and werewolves is real.
And in fact, like under amicroscope, you can see it.
You brought in sort of the queerlens and the ways, like what
happens when we use a queer lensto look at this.
(52:19):
Is Celine maybe is she queer insome way because she she loves
someone who is forbidden, who isnot expected?
Was Lucian and Sonia were theyqueer since they love to cross a
forbidden line?
And also, like, there's somehomoeroticism among the
vampires.
There's some potentially, Iwouldn't use this word, but like
(52:41):
sort of degenerate sexualityamong the vampires, which comes
with the trope.
I talked a bit about thecinematography, which I just
found delightful.
The cinematography, the setdesign, the costume design all
working together to build thisworld that is immersive and for
someone who likes that sort ofsuspension of disbelief, really
(53:03):
entertaining.
I landed on moral ambiguity, andthat's sort of why I would
characterize this maybe as anoir film, because there are no
good guys.
There are only two people whoare truly not cruel.
One of them dies, the otherbecomes a hybrid human vampire
werewolf.
Not sure that's a happy ending.
(53:23):
And of course, Michael Shane.
The man is a treasure.
SPEAKER_00 (53:30):
The man, the myth, the legend.
What are you bringing me nextweek, Em?
Next week, I'm bringing you mydeep thoughts on the sixth
sense.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:44):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:06):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
I'm not sure it's a good movie.
(00:01):
In fact, I'm pretty sure it'snot a good movie.
But it is such an entertainingmovie.
And I think that world buildingthrough the cinematography,
through this, through the sets,through the costumes, is part of
what makes it so satisfying.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
(00:21):
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts about
Stupid Shit, because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
(00:42):
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 2003 movie Underworld withmy sister, Emily Guy Birken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
Listener, before we dive intoUnderworld, I'm gonna ask you
again, if you haven't yet,please take a moment and follow
the show on Apple Podcasts or onSpotify or wherever you get your
(01:04):
pods.
It's a free way for you to helpour show grow.
Thanks.
Now, Underworld.
Emily, I don't know.
Have you seen this movie?
SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
I have, but I have only seen it once.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
And what is in your head?
What is in your head about thismovie?
I cannot wait to hear.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
So what's in my head about this movie is mostly like
six degrees of where have I seenthat actor.
So Kate Beckinsale, who I knowis like the main character in
this movie.
I think when I saw it, I waslike, how do I know her?
And she was she played hero inMuch Ado About Nothing, the
Kenneth Braun on Much Ado AboutNothing that I loved.
(01:49):
So, and then I know Bill Nye isin it as well, who was Billy
Mack in Love Actually.
Love Actually.
I now know Michael Sheen is init, but I did not know him at
the time.
I have since come to adore him.
I remember it being a very bluemovie.
This was like, I feel like thebeginning of when movies just
(02:10):
turned blue.
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
You mean literally the color blue?
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Literally the color blue.
Yes, I don't mean like bluehumor or anything like that.
I mean literally, you'rewatching it, it's like, why is
everything blue?
Um I remember there's vampires.
I remember there's blackleather.
That is about the extent of it.
Like that's that's what I got.
(02:33):
Um, I also happen to know thatthis is how Michael Sheen and
Kate Beckinsale met and thatthey have a child together.
That's it.
That's what I got.
So it's not much.
All right, all right.
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Well, regular listeners may know that I
actually really love a vampiremovie.
Twilight being the exception isnot with the exception.
Because it's not really avampire movie.
Right.
But just in general, like theallegory.
Right.
Just in general, I love that Ilove the genre.
Like something about I thinkit's the dramatic irony of it.
(03:08):
Maybe, maybe it's because like Iactually really love sort of the
gothic aesthetic, even though Idon't think I could pull it off
myself.
I don't know what it is, but Ilove a vampire story.
And so this was on there becauseof that, because this was, you
know, one of those ones from theearly 2000s that I adored it
when it came out.
Like I just thought it was thebees sneeze in the early 2000s.
(03:29):
I've seen it a couple timessince.
I have not actually seen thereare four total movies, and I've
only ever seen the first one.
I'm going to have to rectifythat.
So we are only talking about thefirst one and things that maybe
get resolved in future movies.
I don't know.
I didn't do any of that.
Like I'm just talking about thisone piece of media from 2003.
So it turns out actually it'sgoing to be sort of interesting
(03:52):
in conversation with Highlanderthat we did just last episode.
But that was why it was on thelist.
And like when we were planninglast time, I was like, Oh, yeah,
the vampire movie.
I want to watch the vampiremovie again.
Nothing more complicated thanthat.
So that's why we're talkingabout it today.
I don't have a whole lot atstake, but I do love a good
vampire movie.
And I loved this one when itcame out.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
I remember that's how I ended up seeing it because
you were like, Oh, you gottawatch this, you gotta watch
this.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:16):
So so I will say on Rewatch, this is not a good
film.
It is a very entertaining film,but it is not a good movie.
Um I have such fondness in myheart for those kinds of movies.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, that's part of why we dothis project, right?
I will say it's reallyinteresting, like the pitch
meeting.
(04:37):
I imagine the pitch meeting forthis movie.
They were like, okay, pictureit.
The matrix, but with vampiresand werewolves.
You with me?
And like that was the wholepitch.
Like, that's the movie.
The matrix, but with vampiresand werewolves.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Well, and that's why it looked blue, because the
matrix is blue.
SPEAKER_01 (04:54):
Is blue.
Yeah.
So a couple postcards from TheDestination, and then I will do
a quick synopsis mainly of thecharacters.
Um, because really so muchhappens in this movie.
If I tried to do from beginningto end in chronological order,
it would be much longer than wehave for this show.
It's it's just, it isaction-packed.
So some of the things I want todiscuss, I want to ask the
(05:17):
question is this a feministmovie?
Because there are things aboutit that definitely are, and
there are things about it,namely Kate Beck and Sale's
leather and corset outfit, whichmaybe aren't.
Hot, hot, yes.
Feminist?
I don't know.
So I want to have thatconversation.
I want to talk about this movieas an allegory for interracial
(05:40):
relationships.
And I actually want to, I don'thave a hot take.
I want to tease that apart withyou because I think it was
intentional and I don't know howsuccessful it was.
I want to talk about thecinematography of this film
because, especially after ourconversation last week about
Highlander, I watched this sortof hearing you in my voice
going, senior film student.
(06:03):
And there were a couple ofmoments that I definitely was
like that.
But also, it's veryentertaining.
I actually think there arevisually this movie is gorgeous.
So I want to like have thatconversation.
And like friend of the show,Ryan Cunningham, probably will
like take issue with thatbecause she has such a clear eye
of like the framing and setdesign and all the things that
(06:26):
like I just don't see.
So, Ryan, like, please, like, Iknow you're listening.
Like, let us know what I gotwrong.
We'll talk about gender becausewe have to be Kate Beckett's Ale
in that leather outfit.
We will talk about Michael Sheenbecause I love Michael Sheen.
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
All hail Michael Sheen.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
And I want to talk a little bit about the moral
ambiguity of a movie that'sabout a war between vampires and
werewolves, and like, who areyou supposed to root for?
Which so Roger Ebert hated thismovie.
He gave it two stars, and he waslike, by the end, I didn't even
care who won if it was thevampires or the werewolves.
(07:06):
And I actually think, Roger,that was the point.
Like you weren't, like everybodywas a bad guy.
So I want to talk about that alittle bit.
Before we get to all of thosethings, let me see if I can kind
of remind you a little bit ofthe plot.
So Kate Beckinsale's Celine isour narrator, and also I suppose
she's our protagonist.
(07:27):
Like she's certainly the maincharacter.
And so we get some narrationfrom her, some exposition.
We learn that vampires andlichens, which is this world
building's name for werewolves,are at war and they have been
forever, or for centuries, notforever, for centuries.
Celine herself is what is calleda death dealer.
(07:49):
She is a warrior in this war,and it is her job to kill
lichens, and she loves it.
And she lets us know that theweapons have changed, but the
task is the same.
And at one point there's thisline that's kind of lame, but I
don't know if it was thedelivery or the writing, but she
says, just like the weapons ofthe last century, we death
dealers will soon be obsolete.
(08:10):
Anyway, why will they beobsolete?
Because she's gonna exterminateall the lichen.
Oh, I see.
Okay.
She feels like it's that close.
So there's all this backstoryfrom centuries ago where the the
leader of the lichen, Lucian,died.
He was killed, and that sort ofended the worst of the fighting.
And since then, that was severalhundred years ago, since then,
(08:32):
it really had like all thelichen have been basically in
hiding, and these death dealershave been like seeking them out.
That's all an exposition.
And the first scene of the film,like, there's a lot of like
architectural gothic thingswhere she and another vampire
look like gargoyles on the topof these spires and stuff, but
then they drop down, and there'sthis huge shootout in a subway
(08:56):
with vampires and werewolves andlike running and jumping and
acrobatics and so many bullets,so many bullets.
So from the beginning, like it'sheart pounding from like the
first three minutes of the film.
Through the course of the film,we meet.
So Celine was turned by Victor.
(09:18):
He's one of three elders, andthey have a thing where that
they call leapfrogging throughtime, where only one is awake.
There are three of them in this,like they're two covens ruled by
these three elders, and only oneof the elders is awake at a
time.
The others go into this sort ofhibernation where they turn into
these like desiccated whatevercorpses, and so a century at a
(09:40):
time, and then the next onewakes up.
And so each of them is sleepingfor two centuries and awake for
one century.
We learn pretty quickly thatLucian, who's supposedly dead,
is not, in fact, dead.
That's Michael Sheen, but thelichen are all living
underground.
And the visuals of this movieset up a huge dichotomy between
these two species, and they callthemselves species.
(10:03):
The lichen live underground andit's very gritty and dirty and
like muted colors and likebrowns and grays and things, and
like dripping everywhere.
It's very gritty.
And the vampires live in amansion with like luscious rugs,
and they're all dressed verysexy, but very like luxe, with
(10:26):
like lots of like corsets andthe men in these like velvet
shirts, and it's it's very likelavish, yes, in the mansion
where the vampires live in likefancy cars and everything.
And the head of the house rightnow, while Victor, who sired
Celine, is sleeping orhibernating, whatever it is that
(10:48):
they're doing when he's down inthe thing.
The head of the house whileVictor's asleep is a vampire
named Craven.
And you can tell by his name,he's a villain.
Craven wants Celine to be hispartner, and she wants nothing
to do with him.
Like, she just is not interestedin this dude.
(11:09):
But he's like, I want you by myside, you're gonna be my future
queen, like all this stuff.
Like, he just like will not takea hint.
Like, this chick's not into you,dude.
Erica, played by Sophia Miles,who I did that sort of six
degrees like while I waswatching it this time.
She wants to be the queen.
Like, she is like, Yes, me,hello, me, me, me.
(11:32):
And she keeps trying to like getCraven's attention.
And so there's some, it's noteven a rivalry because Celine's
not interested.
So Erica has some feelings aboutCeline, but anyway.
We also meet Michael, that's thecharacter's name.
He's played by Scott Speedman.
He's human, and the lichen aretracking him.
(11:52):
And Celine sort of figures outthat these lichen are tracking
this human, and she's like,something's weird.
Why is this happening?
And Craven's like, Don't youworry your pretty head about it.
And she's like, No, I'm notlistening to you.
Something's weird.
And so she figures out that thisguy is being tracked.
And we learn through the courseof like her trying to, like,
she's gonna go get the dude, thehuman dude, Michael.
(12:14):
And so she ends up in a shootoutwith this amazing scene that is
iconic where she's like trapped.
And so she shoots, she has twopistols, guns, I don't know what
kind of, I don't know, firearmsthat she's holding in each hand,
and she shoots a circle aroundherself so that the floor falls
down, and that's how sheescapes.
And it's amazing.
Anyway, it's a shame how muchyou don't like this film.
(12:39):
Michael, like, he gets caughtand escapes, and like all sorts
of things happen.
Finally, Lucian, Michael Sheen,decides he has to do it himself.
So he gets Michael and bites himand gets some of his blood in
his mouth.
And we learn that there was thislegend of this man named
Corvinus, who somehow had thisgenetic mutation that allowed
(13:03):
him to survive a plague.
He had three sons, one becamevampire, one became a werewolf,
and one remained human.
So this like common ancestor forall three.
So Lucian and the Lycan havebeen seeking out a descendant, a
human descendant, because theywant to try and like merge the
species.
He wants to end the war byeliminating the difference.
(13:26):
And so they have like a board,you know, like a murder board
sort of thing with all like thestrings and stuff.
So so Michael's last name isCorvin, and it turns out he is a
direct descendant of thisoriginal person.
So they've been trying to gethis blood because when lichen
blood and vampire blood are puttogether, both die.
So if a vampire were to bite awerewolf, he would die and vice
(13:48):
versa.
So that's like sort of going onthe background.
That's like world building andlike creating the conflict in
the plot.
So meanwhile, Celine savesMichael from Lucian, Michael
Sheen.
But then Michael saves Celinebecause she gets injured and
loses a lot of blood and passesout while driving and they fall
into a river, a lake.
(14:09):
I don't know.
So he saves her from the water.
So now they've saved each other.
So shenanigans ensue, andthere's lots and lots of
fighting.
And then we learn that the manVictor, the vampire who turned
Celine, who she believes savedher from werewolves, who killed
(14:30):
her entire family, her mother,her father, her sister, and her
sister's twin daughters, whowere six, she believes Victor
saved her from them.
And it turns out he's the onewho killed them.
And he didn't kill her becauseshe reminded him of his
daughter, Sonia.
Sonia was married to Lucian.
(14:50):
Sonia the vampire was married toLucian, the werewolf.
And when Victor, Sonia's father,discovered this and discovered
that she was pregnant, heexecuted her in front of Lucian.
So this is all a backstory.
Celine didn't know because it'sforbidden to look into the past.
So there's so many conspiracies.
(15:30):
It's an action movie, so andshe's the star.
So obviously she has to save aman and then fall in love with
him because that's how thesethings work.
So there's a romance betweenthem, which some commentators
have said is like totally flatand doesn't work.
I actually did see thechemistry, and there is a moment
where she asks about a pictureshe saw of Michael and another
(15:51):
woman, and he tells a storyabout how he she was his
significant other, we don'tknow, wife or fiance or what,
but like died in a car crashright next to him.
Like he was unable to save her,and she kept asking about like,
so he watched her die.
And then Celine tells the storyabout being saved and like her
entire family.
So they have that sort of sharedbackground trauma.
(16:12):
Trauma.
And then they go through traumatogether.
So I actually did believe thesort of romance between them.
He's been bitten by a lichen, sohe's going to turn into a
lichen.
So she's actually like her jobis to kill this guy.
She doesn't want to because nowshe has feelings for him.
The whole thing goes downunderground in this gritty, it's
(16:33):
always raining in this unnamedcity where they are.
And there's this huge fightbetween Celine, Victor, Michael,
and Lucian.
Craven runs away because that'swho he is.
Lucian is dying.
He's been shot with a bulletthat had like liquid silver in
it.
So it's in his bloodstream.
So he is dying.
And Michael has been shot aswell by Kraven.
(16:57):
And Celine is like, all shecares about, like Craven's like,
come on, come with me.
And she's she's like, not shedoesn't even give him the time
of day like to look at him.
She's just focused on Michael.
He runs away when he realizesVictor's coming, and Lucian
says, bite him.
Lucian says to Celine, biteMichael, because he has this
special power.
(17:17):
So she does, and he turns intothis crazy black monster.
And then there's a huge fight.
Celine now knows that Victor isthe one who killed her family.
And he's like, Yes, I took fromyou, but I gave you so much
more.
And there's this big choreographfight between like Michael,
who's now has like black skin,not like brown skin, like a
human person that we call black,but like the color black, like
(17:40):
blue black and like black eyes,because he's both vampire and
werewolf now.
And like the violence of likethe power of this choreograph
fight scene is intense, wherelike they throw each other
against columns and like cementshatters, sort of sounds like
the Highlander thing with thesparks, except I believed it.
And then like Victor seems tosort of be winning, but then
(18:03):
Celine sees Victor's sword andshe picks it up.
And this is another iconicscene.
This is the one that stayed withme.
And she does this acrobatic flipwhere she jumps around and over
him and he like stands up andfaces her.
Victor's facing Celine.
They're probably 15 feet apartat this point, and he's just
sort of blinking at her.
And then she shows him that thesword has blood on it, and he
sort of blinks, and blood sortof bubbles up in a line, a
(18:26):
diagonal line from above hisleft ear, probably above one of
his ears, down to like belowlike his jawline on the other
side, like a diagonal line.
And then that top half of hishead just sort of slides off.
SPEAKER_00 (18:37):
Gross.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Gross.
Like while he's still blinkingat her.
And then we see sort of thelichen are kind of like in the
shadows.
They had been sort of watchingand they sort of recede.
And the movie ends with sheretrieves a necklace that had
been Sonia's the dead daughter.
(19:00):
And we hear her kind ofvoiceover again, sort of saying,
What happened tonight is gonnareverberate for centuries, and
now I'm gonna become the hunted.
There's a lot more.
There's like one of the othervampire elders is ambushed that
Craven arranged because hewanted to sort of take over.
There's how we learn about Soniabeing killed by Victor, is
(19:21):
because when Lycan bites you,you kind of get some of their
memories.
And so Michael actually nowremembers when Lucian had to
witness his.
So that becomes sort of asympathetic moment between them
because Lucian is like akidnapper and like like Michael
Sheen's character, like in thebeginning, you're like, Do I
like this guy?
(19:41):
Is he sympathetic?
But then the backstory makes himvery sympathetic.
He tells a story that we used tobe enslaved.
The werewolves used to be theslaves of the vampires.
They were the daytime guardians.
And he didn't even, he was borninto servitude and he wished
them no ill will, even took avampire as his bride.
But then when Victor did what hedid, like that was the start of
the war.
(20:02):
And so we see at one point whenMichael and Celine are reunited.
Michael says, I know whatstarted the war because he feels
as though he was there becausehe had that memory.
And we know that that memorypasses on when Celine wakes
Victor outside of theappropriate chain, like more
than a century early, and itwasn't his turn.
But she wants his guidancebecause she suspects Craven is
(20:25):
guilty of something.
And so to do that, she gives himsome blood, this corpse, some
blood.
There's this whole likemechanism that's it's actually
really neat the way they thoughtit through.
And with it comes his memories.
And the reason they only haveelders wake the other elders is
because they have the skill tolike, I don't know, somehow
arrange their memories so thatwhen the blood goes, it's like
(20:45):
coherent.
That's actually kind ofinteresting.
She talks to herself in themirror.
She talks to Victor in themirror so that he will have that
memory.
And so there's a lot in therethat, like, go watch the movie
if this sounds at allinteresting to you, if you
haven't seen it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Come to think of it.
I do remember Bill Nye'scharacter being like a betrayer.
Like, I remember that being likethe plot twist of and it's a
huge betrayal because she thinksof him as a father.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
He saved her.
SPEAKER_00 (21:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:15):
And that's why she's lived the way she's lived for
centuries.
And it was all a lie.
Like he couldn't bear, like theyhad the rules for the vampires
is they only feed on livestock,but like he didn't like that.
So every once in a while, Craventells Celine this.
He would, every once in a while,he would go out and binge on
humans.
And and it was Craven's job tolike clean up after him.
And that's how Craven knows thatthis is the case.
(21:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
unknown (21:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
So that's sort of the backstory.
And there's so much more.
I if there are specific thingsthat I you need to know for the
analysis, I'll bring them back.
But I don't want to spend anymore time there.
That was our that was enough.
So let me start with where Istarted the postcards, which is
is this a feminist film?
Here are the ways it is afeminist film.
The vampire.
Story, the trope, the kind ofseed that we have is this
(22:05):
powerful seductive man whopossesses in some way a
submissive woman.
Right?
Like that is the Dracula story.
That was the fear that this likepure woman then becomes sort of
seduced.
And there's there's sexuality init, but there's also like
(22:26):
dominance and submission.
And like all of that is kind ofhovering around the vampire
story.
SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
And there's the financial power as well.
The vampire, in the way we havereceived it, is powerful in so
many ways.
And that power is exercised overhis female victim.
Celine breaks all of that,right?
Like she is powerful.
(22:54):
She's the one who holds thepower.
And even when the other vampire,Craven, is trying to exert his
vampiric power over her, she'slike, no, I don't just just
know.
Like, not even like there is noapology.
There's no like, oh man, I know.
And like, I mean, she even saysto at one point to Victor, like,
(23:16):
Craven will not leave me alone.
Like, he's just, he's obsessedwith me, and I can't take it.
And so that kind of like,frankly, more realistic.
I mean, sometimes the sometimesthe attention is wanted.
Erica would have loved to haveCraven's attention in that way.
(23:37):
But when it's not, it's not.
And it's not like you get worndown and now love him, which is
the what we're often given, youknow?
SPEAKER_00 (23:46):
I don't know if the listeners could probably could
not hear my eye roll, although Ifeel like it should have been
audible considering how big itwas.
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
I mean, we we get that story so often, right?
So often.
Celine, like, just blows throughthat with her giant gun.
You know, like she just, she'sjust just no.
And so in that that subversionby making her a vampire or
making her, you know, this way,and she's like extremely sexy.
(24:15):
I mean, so friggin' sexy, butnot interested in the sort of
dominant male at all.
And so, in that sense, I feellike there is a certain amount
of feminism.
There's a certain a feministimpulse, at least, even just as
powerful as she is, likephysically powerful, and the way
(24:40):
that she like defies conventionand defies the rules of this man
feels really powerful.
Here's the way it's notfeminist.
It does not pass back to test.
Or if it does, it just squeaksby.
So there is, there are two othernamed female characters: Amelia,
who's one of the other elderswho does not speak.
(25:01):
She only dies.
And Erica, who I've mentioned,and they do talk to one another.
Erica and Celine do talk to oneanother, but almost exclusively
about men, either Craven orMichael.
There's like one line whereErica's like, come on, we need
to get you dressed for theparty, or you should wear this
dress.
Like, so they do talk about adress.
(25:23):
But like, yeah, it's like I sortof feel like maybe Allison would
be okay.
Alison Bechtel would be okaywith me adding that to the her
test.
Like, are there at least twonamed female characters?
Do they talk to each other anddo they talk to each other about
something other than a man, aboy, or what they're wearing?
SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Or makeup.
SPEAKER_01 (25:44):
I feel like maybe Alison Bechtel would be okay
with me adding that.
So in that way, it's notfeminist.
It also like she is so sexy.
Like she is a walking sexobject, Kate Beckinsale in this
movie.
Like they have her poured intothis leather or maybe vinyl like
cat suit and then a corset overtop.
It is hot.
(26:04):
I mean, like, it is really hot.
And so her power comes with thisobjectification.
And I am not, I think regularlisteners will know that I do
not believe that sexuality orlike showing female sexuality is
anti-feminist.
But it definitely feels likemale gaze with Kate Beckinsale
(26:25):
in this movie.
Yeah.
The other thing is, as I sort ofmentioned before, like it's an
action movie starring a woman.
So of course she's gonna save aman and fall in love with him.
Like this is, I don't know ifanybody else is using this
phrase, but you and I sometimeswill talk about the love struck
should be leader or hero.
The love struck should beleader.
Like Trinity is one in theMatrix, which it makes sense now
(26:47):
that Caden Beckons out, becausethis is definitely a Matrix
ripoff.
And in the in the Lego movieWild style.
I think Hermione eventuallybecomes one.
Yeah, Hermione is one.
She's not love struck from thebeginning, but eventually like
she goes for Ron.
What?
Anyway, sorry, that's an aside.
This is a trope that happens, Ithink, where you have this super
(27:10):
capable.
Princess Leia.
Yeah, yeah.
You have this super capablewoman who should be the leader,
but instead she is the loveinterest for the leader, and she
likes supports and and saves hisleadership.
So she falls into that trope.
And that doesn't feel feministto me.
SPEAKER_00 (27:27):
So you're saying that she's the love struck would
be leader.
Who is the leader?
Is it Michael?
SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Yeah.
I mean, he's the sort of likechosen one.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
Chosen one.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (27:37):
Yeah.
So he is not a leader, sort ofby the end of the movie.
There kind of isn't one.
She has she's destroyed.
She's destroyed Victor.
Craven has run off.
And Lucian dies or dead.
He dies.
He dies.
Um Lucian dies.
So and the third elder hasalready died, too, right?
No, there is a third elder.
(27:59):
The the movie actually ends, thesets up for the next movie
beautifully, which I really needto go watch it.
They killed one of the likeelder lichen who had been
helping with this experiment tofind Michael Corvin.
They killed him in the kind ofsleeping chambers.
And so we see that his blood,the lichen's blood, like drips
(28:21):
down to the final elder who'sstill living, Marcus.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
And we see his lichen elder elder.
SPEAKER_01 (28:28):
No, the final vampire elder.
Vampire elder elder.
The lichen elders don't sleep.
The vampire elders.
It's three vampire elders whosleep, who sleep frog through
time.
Gotcha.
So, and we see his eyes open.
So Marcus is being awakened bywerewolf blood.
And the werewolf memories willcome with that.
(28:50):
So who knows?
Whoever's seen the next movieknows.
I don't know how that's gonnaplay out because I haven't seen
the next movie.
But they do set that up reallybeautifully, I think.
You know, in terms of likesatisfying storytelling, anyway.
Because it was unintentional.
They have like Celine killed theguy.
Celine brought him and was likeinterrogating him to prove to
(29:14):
Victor, because Victor was stillbelieving Craven.
So she like catches this lichenand brings him to the chamber.
So Michael, though, is thechosen one.
They don't use that terminology.
But because he has this specialblood, you know.
That's what he represents in thestory.
He represents the chosen onebecause now he is the first of
(29:36):
the new hybrid species whichLucian had been working for.
So the other thing that I wantto bring up in the question of
is this a feminist movie?
It doesn't pass back tell, butthere are a lot of unnamed
female vampires that we see.
Many.
We don't see a single femalewerewolf.
(29:56):
Not one.
And I have to think, I read thisand it just really rings true.
Some commentator was like, Ihave to imagine that hairy women
was a thing that movie execswere like, nah, don't do that.
And given the way Kai Beckinsalland all the other vampires,
female vampires, look in thismovie, like, yep, that's what
(30:20):
happened.
They were like, femalewerewolves, not sexy.
Let's not have any.
You know, because there's thisone scene in the very beginning
when we first meet Lucian inperson.
The werewolves, they'reunderground and they're like
having a fight club, but like aswerewolves, because when they've
been werewolf long enough, theycan turn at well.
They don't need the moon.
So they're like having like afight club as werewolves.
(30:43):
And so he comes in, like shootsa shotgun in the air and was
like, You're behaving like rabiddogs.
And there's these two verywell-built men who've been
fighting.
They're like got little bloodscratches and stuff, looking
sheepish.
And he says their names, I don'tremember, and he says, put some
clothes on.
And we can see that like thecamera angle ends like very
strategically.
(31:04):
Like there's a line, like rightat like where that like the V of
the thigh gap and a little,maybe even maybe even I maybe I
saw a hint of pubic hair on oneof my maybe, I don't know.
Sheen, Michael Sheen pulls itoff so beautifully.
I was like, oh, you littledevil.
He like his eyes dart down andthen back up, and he says, put
(31:24):
some clothes on.
So male werewolves can be sexy,but obviously female werewolves
can be sexy.
So that's another thing thatlike I'm extrapolating a little
bit, but I'm gonna, I'm willingto say, like, that's like a not
feminist thing about this moviethat like we couldn't get any
(31:48):
female werewolves.
So, like, there's tension here.
Like, Celine is a badass, she'samazing, and like in many ways,
subverts patriarchy and likeliterally beheads it.
And in other ways, she fallsright into it, you know, with
this like poured into thisleather outfit, you know?
(32:10):
So, anyway, that's I thinkthat's enough.
SPEAKER_00 (32:13):
I do want to stick with this for a second.
Okay, okay.
So, one thing I'm thinking aboutis the way that vampires, like
the metaphor that vampiresrepresent in our culture, and
this is partially because Ibelieve Bram Stoker himself was
not necessarily heterosexual, isvampires represent kind of
degenerate sexuality in ourculture.
(32:36):
And so the fact that there isthe idea that vampires prey on
defenseless women, but withinthe original Dracula story,
Dracula also preyed on JonathanHarker.
And there is that sense ofpredation of like gay male
(32:59):
predation as well.
And so I kind of want to stickwith this just a little bit and
kind of tease out like the kindof queer lens of this as well.
Added to that, something that'sinteresting to think about
werewolf mythology is if youconsider the fact that
werewolves are associated withthe moon.
(33:21):
Sort of feminine energy, maybefeminine energy periods, because
they turn into a monster once amonth.
And so the fact that thesewolves are all male is
interesting.
And then the fact that ourprotagonist's name is Selene,
which means moon.
(33:41):
Mmm.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
And so, like, all of thattogether is very interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (33:48):
And the leather add to that is is also kind of well,
I'm glad you brought up the factthat that vampires are often
associated with sort ofdegenerate sexuality or
sexuality in general, becausethat definitely is the case with
these vampires in this film,right?
Like there's a scene where Ericatries to sort of seduce Craven.
And, you know, it's very tame bytoday's standards.
(34:10):
Like she ends up topless, but wedon't actually see anything.
And she's sitting on his lap,but he they both still have
pants on, but they're likemaking out and he bites her
neck, which is that cool whenyou bite another vampire's
anyway.
So the sexuality piece of it,it's really interesting that you
brought that in because the thevampires in this film definitely
(34:32):
read as sexual.
There is a sense that all ofthese vampires who live in this
coven are having sex with oneanother.
We don't see that, it's justsort of like implied, yeah,
yeah.
And versus the werewolves whoare all male.
And the homoeroticism is inthese fights or a fight that we
(34:54):
see between them.
So that's there, but it's all ofthe subversions are really
interesting because you'repointing out that the werewolf
kind of becomes sort ofassociated with women, and we've
got only male werewolves.
And there is a homoeroticism tothe fight scene, especially with
Michael Sheen's acting choices,the way he looks at us down.
(35:15):
And yet it's also couched inalmost a hyper masculinity with
the fighting, and they weredoing it like a bunch of other
guys were watching in theirhuman forms and like goading
them on in that in that very,very early fight scene.
So that's sort of an interestingthing.
And I also think I was tellingmy um physical therapist
actually this morning that I hadwatched this movie to do this
(35:37):
thing, and she says, I fell inlove with Kaylee Beckinsale in
that movie.
She's so hot in that movie.
So, you know, when you say like,or a queer lens for this, it's
interesting too.
Like I read Beckinsale's costumedesign as male gaze, but it's
worth sort of taking a beat andsaying, like, yeah, and she is
desired by this male vampire,like deeply desired by him.
(36:01):
But you know, there's nothingthere.
Like her only friend seems to beMichael, but she and Erica do
seem to have some kind of likeat one point, Erica like helps
her escape because Craven hasher on lockdown.
And Celine says, Why are youhelping me?
And Erica says, I'm not, I'mhelping myself.
So, like the surface read isthat Erica's getting her arrival
(36:25):
out of the way, and wedefinitely see that.
But there's also something of a,I think, more than that between
these the two women, some sortof friendship or something.
So, anyway, thank you forkeeping us with this.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
Yeah, I mean, to what your physical therapist
said, there could be a read thatKate Beckinsell, her character
is queer as well, in that shefalls for someone who is not
like her.
And who is forbidden.
Who is forbidden, yeah.
So in the same way that thedaughter that she was created to
(37:02):
replace, yeah, also was queer.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:08):
Yeah, let's let's actually let's jump to the
daughter.
Let's talk about the daughterbecause I think that there's a
degree to which this wasintended as an allegory about
interracial relationships.
Like Victor, Bill Nye'scharacter, says, I loved my
daughter, but the abominationthat was growing in her womb I
could not allow to exist.
I did what I did for thespecies.
(37:29):
And he says that's what he'sgonna do now when he kills
Michael.
And so, you know, you don't haveto be a film critic to sort of
see that, right?
And Noble, I guess, you know,that they want to do that.
They they made this man verymuch the villain for having
policed the interspeciesrelationships the way that he
(37:51):
did.
It's very clear.
The movie makers make it veryclear that he's in the wrong.
And it's sort of an interestinglike, is this a useful allegory,
really?
Like, there are no femalewerewolves as far as we can see.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure.
I'm not sure like where to gowith it.
Cause like the backstory isreally at the individual level,
(38:14):
at the personal level level,that Lucian was forced, he was
in chains to watch his beloveddie.
It's a powerful story.
When we zoom out as an allegory,right, like with the servitude
and where they are now, youknow, with the lichen living
underground in very like muddy,dirty, sewer type, you know,
(38:39):
areas versus the vampires up inthe mansion.
There are layers to it, which ifwe are taking it as allegory,
like it's complicated.
It's complicated.
I'm not sure how I feel aboutit.
And, you know, they're verycareful.
The casting was very careful.
There are black werewolves,black people playing werewolves,
(39:02):
and there are black peopleplaying vampires.
We have both.
We even have a couple of atleast one Asian vampire.
So they were very careful.
I mean, our our main charactersare all white, but you know,
sort of the supportingcharacters are multiracial.
And in fact, like the number twowerewolf is played by Kevin
(39:23):
Grivaux.
He's like that really big guy,big black guy with like a really
deep voice.
SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
One of those six degrees of where do I know that
actor.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
Yeah.
He might be the Green Mile guy.
Anyway, I never saw the GreenMile.
And then one of the vampires whoCeline trusts, who's like the
weapons expert guy, is a is ablack actor.
So, which only supports my sensethat this being an allegory
about interracial relationshipswasn't purpose.
(39:55):
You know.
So I don't know that I haveanywhere else to go with this.
I'm not sure it holds up, but Iappreciate that they tried.
I actually do.
And like, as I say, in theindividual characters, I do
think it's a really powerfulstory.
SPEAKER_00 (40:11):
So it's kind of like uh in the way Zootopia was
trying to be an allegory.
It's one of those where anyallegory falls apart if you look
too closely at it and can be alittle offensive if you take it
to its logical conclusion.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
Because it it creates an essentialism, like
because race is made up.
Yes.
Race is made up.
Yes.
But the difference between avampire and a werewolf, okay,
that's made up.
But in the world building ofthis universe of this film, it's
not made up.
It is there are like realbiological differences.
Yes.
And so it's like land beforetime, right?
(40:50):
Like Daddy Triceratops wasright.
Triceratops don't play with longnecks because they live to
different time periods, right?
Like, like there actually is ameasurable scientific
difference.
I know I'm saying scientificdifference about vampires and
werewolves, but within thismovie, there's a lot of science,
actually.
There is a lot of science withinthis movie.
(41:10):
Whereas there is no measurablescientific difference between
the races.
And so the allegories, like,actually, in some ways, the
allegory reifies the racism.
Yes.
Because it implies thedifference is more substantial
than it truly is.
Racism is real.
Like racism is measurable.
(41:31):
Race is not.
And so I think that's that thankyou for pushing me to articulate
that a little bit more clearly.
SPEAKER_00 (41:38):
Yeah.
And so, like, that doesn't makeallegories useless.
SPEAKER_01 (41:42):
Right.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (41:44):
It's just, you know, when filmmakers and storytellers
do have these allegories, weneed to like push back on them
somewhat to be like, okay, thisis helpful, but we need to know
where the end of the helpfulnessis.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (41:57):
Precisely.
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
That's precisely it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:59):
That's precisely it.
Okay.
I want to spend a couple ofminutes talking about the
cinematography in this filmbecause it's actually really
fun.
And like the pitch meeting thatI named at the beginning, like,
for reels, like the Matrix meetsvampires and werewolves.
Like, there are several momentsthat are use that sort of slow
(42:19):
motion, like close-up kind ofaction or of bullets.
Bullet time is what they callit.
Is that what they call it?
Um, that was, I think, inventedby the It was the Wachowski
sisters.
The Wachowski sisters in the inthe Matrix movies.
Like it's not precisely bullettime because it's it's not the
but it's like sort ofreminiscent of that.
(42:42):
There are a couple of momentswhere we actually like the
camera, I'm putting quotesaround that, goes inside the
body.
And there's like CG of like,like when the vampire is waking
up, we see the heart start tobeat and like the tissue start
to expand.
Or like when Michael is firststarting to turn his first time,
(43:03):
like the camera, again, quotes,goes inside his body, and we see
his ribs, like the bonesactually expanding, and like,
and it's cut between like himlike writhing and like pulling
up a shirt to look at his ribcage and like like these inner
workings, or there's severalscenes that are from the POV of
a werewolf like stalking Celine.
(43:25):
So kind of like like blurryaround the edges.
Like, I don't know what that'scalled, like, but that sort of
vignette focus, like around likein a little shaky camera work
around corners and stuff.
I don't know.
I'm not a cinematographer, Idon't know if that's good, but
it works.
Like my heart was pounding.
It really worked, and so I justwant to name that like the movie
(43:49):
makers committed to the goth,and like it is deeply
entertaining.
Like the movie opens on Celine,like sort.
Of half squatting in this likeskin tight leather up on the
ramparts of like a church orsomething with they all wear
(44:09):
like duster coats, like longduster coats.
And so she's wearing one andit's sort of flapping in the
wind.
And it's awesome.
SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
It's so beautiful.
It's like, I mean, inspiresthousands of uh Halloween
costumes that year.
SPEAKER_01 (44:28):
She like back and sale in the outfit is hot, but
that's not what that like thatmoment, that scene, that visual
is not actually about the sexappeal.
It is sexy, but that's not, Idon't think, the primary note.
It's gothic is the primary note.
(44:48):
And there's something likedeeply satisfying about the like
gothic architecture and thisleather clad woman and the sort
of flapping in the way, likewhat's moving and what's not,
and the different textures andthe like the blueness of it, as
you named, that's just really,really beautiful.
And this, the world buildingthat is achieved through the
(45:09):
cinematography, and it's in partthrough the story, but it's also
through the cinematography, Ithink, and the sets.
The sets were incredible.
The sets, the cinematography,create this world building that
is just, I found it deeplycompelling.
Roger Ebert hated it.
So maybe you have to have acertain sort of like aesthetic
to appreciate it.
But it's this unnamed city thatlike you're like, is it New
(45:33):
York?
Maybe it's New York.
But the cars have license platesthat look more like Europe, but
they're driving on the thedriver's side is on the correct
side for Americans.
So it's not London.
It's not London, but like itcould be London, like with these
narrow streets and there's somewater.
And the accents, right?
(45:54):
Like they all have different,like the vampires all have
different accents.
Like I think Craven soundsAmerican, and I think Erica
sounds American, but like allthe others sound different kinds
of British.
So it does create this otheruniverse for you through all of
these different factors that, asI said, like I'm not sure it's a
(46:17):
good movie.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it'snot a good movie, but it is such
an entertaining movie.
And I think that world buildingthrough the cinematography,
through this, through the sets,through the costumes is part of
what makes it so satisfying,that world building piece of it.
The last thing I want to talkabout that I haven't yet is the
(46:39):
moral ambiguity.
Right?
Like you make a movie about awar between vampires and
werewolves.
Who are the good guys?
Right?
Both of them feed on humans,right?
And interestingly, like weactually don't see them.
We don't see them hurt humansmostly.
(46:59):
A little bit, a little bit.
But the humans who get hurt inthis movie are kind of caught in
the crossfire.
They're not actually theintended targets of any of the
violence.
So they're killing each other.
And it's a high body count.
Like a lot of vampires andwerewolves die in this movie.
A lot.
And so, you know, whenwerewolves immortal in this?
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
Yes.
Like like vampires?
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (47:21):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
In fact, so they are vulnerableto silver, but they can
regenerate if they can get itout.
So in fact, at one point, likeCeline takes Michael to a house
where they do interrogations,she says.
So she thinks it'll be safe.
And they're like, there'sevidence of like operations and
like bullets in a pan.
(47:42):
And he's like, What's all this?
She says, Well, if we leave thesilver in, then they die before
we can get any answers.
So we take the bullets out, youknow, for the interrogation.
And then he's like, Well, whatdo you do when the
interrogation's over?
She says, We put the bulletsback in, which I like saw coming
and and still enjoyed that shesaid it.
Um, so I almost I feel likeRoger Ebert in his
(48:05):
contemporaneous review, when hewas like, I don't know who I was
supposed to be rooting for, andI really didn't care, you know,
vampires or or werewolves inthis war.
And like, I think that RogerEbert like missed the point.
Like, I think that actually iskind of the point.
I think that's sort of what wasinteresting to the movie makers
because it it has a noir vibe toit.
And there are no good guys innoir, right?
(48:26):
Like, I think that's especiallywith her voiceover.
Like it, it's like gothic matrixnoir with vampires and
werewolves.
I really wish I could have heardthe pitch meeting.
So, you know, I I think thatthat moral ambiguity is actually
inherent to the story.
I think that's like that's partof why you tell a vampire and
(48:48):
werewolf story.
Lucian, Michael Sheen'scharacter, is the most
sympathetic character, even moreso than Celine, because we get
the sense that he was justtrying to live his life with his
beloved, and then like he wasthrust into being a villain.
Yeah.
And you never really get thesense that it's villainy.
(49:09):
Like, once you understand what'smotivating him, it it always
feels like he's working towardssomething, and there are
consequences, but it like thereis no cruelty in him, unlike all
of the other characters, Ithink, aside from Michael, the
human who becomes both.
So Michael Sheen's Lucian andScott Speedman's Michael are the
(49:31):
only two who have no crueltywithin them.
So, like, yeah, of course youdon't know who you root for,
Roger.
Like, they're all bad guys.
That's the point.
And that's sort of what's Ithink meant to be interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
So one of the things I find tragic about vampire
stories is like, and why I getfrustrated by like Twilight is
like turning a human into avampire is a tragedy.
SPEAKER_01 (49:56):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (49:56):
And right it should be treated as such because it
turns them into a monster, acruel monster.
SPEAKER_01 (50:01):
Yeah.
Right.
Right.
And that you know, it it'sinteresting that you say that
too, because it there's a momentwhere Victor, Selena's like, how
could you have done this to me?
How could you have like donethis and then taken my trust
after what you did?
And he's like, Yeah, I took fromyou, but I gave you so much
more.
I gave you immortality, isn'tthat worth it?
And like the viewers, like, no,to your point, to exactly your
(50:23):
point.
Yeah.
So so yeah, yeah, Roger, you gotit.
Good job.
SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
Um, so that's probably other movies that day.
SPEAKER_01 (50:31):
So no doubt, no doubt.
So those were the things Iwanted to talk about.
I definitely have some stuff forthe shit we forgot to say.
So, listener, if you are not yeta patron, head on over to our
Patreon and you can hear moreabout Underworld in our extra
patron exclusive shit we forgotto say uh bonus.
Before that, let me just remindyou of what we talked about.
(50:53):
So, feminist question mark.
There's a lot of things that arefeminist about this movie, the
ways in which Celine likesundermines the tropes of the
vampirism myth that has thisvery powerful man exert power
over a vulnerable woman.
(51:13):
She blows that out of the water.
She literally decapitatespatriarchy.
She is also the object of ourgaze as an object.
The object of our gaze as anobject.
That's kind of a anyway.
Um, she also should be theleader and is instead this sort
of love-struck support for thechosen one.
(51:35):
And that sort of subverts thefeminist move.
She is a badass feminist.
She doesn't have any femalefriends and doesn't talk to any
other women named women aboutanything other than a man or her
dress.
Not feminist.
So that's sort of going onthere.
We talked about this as anallegory of interracial
(51:57):
relationships and the ways inwhich that like is helpful and
the ways the edges of thehelpfulness, namely that race
isn't real, but the differencebetween, at least in this movie,
the difference between vampiresand and werewolves is real.
And in fact, like under amicroscope, you can see it.
You brought in sort of the queerlens and the ways, like what
happens when we use a queer lensto look at this.
(52:19):
Is Celine maybe is she queer insome way because she she loves
someone who is forbidden, who isnot expected?
Was Lucian and Sonia were theyqueer since they love to cross a
forbidden line?
And also, like, there's somehomoeroticism among the
vampires.
There's some potentially, Iwouldn't use this word, but like
(52:41):
sort of degenerate sexualityamong the vampires, which comes
with the trope.
I talked a bit about thecinematography, which I just
found delightful.
The cinematography, the setdesign, the costume design all
working together to build thisworld that is immersive and for
someone who likes that sort ofsuspension of disbelief, really
(53:03):
entertaining.
I landed on moral ambiguity, andthat's sort of why I would
characterize this maybe as anoir film, because there are no
good guys.
There are only two people whoare truly not cruel.
One of them dies, the otherbecomes a hybrid human vampire
werewolf.
Not sure that's a happy ending.
(53:23):
And of course, Michael Shane.
The man is a treasure.
SPEAKER_00 (53:30):
The man, the myth, the legend.
What are you bringing me nextweek, Em?
Next week, I'm bringing you mydeep thoughts on the sixth
sense.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:44):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:06):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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