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Thought is real. Physical is the illusion. Ironic, huh ?
The thoughts are deeper (and potentially more upsetting, so mind the CWs) than usual on this week's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit, where Emily shares her film analysis of the 1998 cult classic What Dreams May Come. Based on the novel by Richard Matheson (who had some truly fucked up views of women, romance, and gender dynamics), director Vincent Ward and leads Robin Williams, Cuba Gooding, Jr., and Annabella Sciorra make a concerted effort to elevate the source material beyond its misogynistic roots, giving us a visually stunning examination of the afterlife and a compassionate look at the difficulty of loving someone with mental health challenges. But the trope that Williams' Chris and Sciorra's Annie are soul mates keeps their romance from being something to emulate, erases Annie's agency, and recreates Matheson's misogynistic belief that women are nothing without their men.
Additionally, although casting Gooding as Chris's deceased mentor may have seemed progressive for the 90s, finding out that the actual mentor was cosplaying as Max Von Sydow, a white German actor, while Chris's daughter took on the form of Rosalind Chao because of a casually racist comment Chris once made about the beauty of Asian women, feels rather less worthy of nostalgia from the vantage point of 2026. That said, while Matheson's view of women is foul, the romance and imagination of the afterlife he envisioned and Ward put on the screen is nothing short of captivating and thought-provoking--and this film offers an lovely and compassionate take on how to support someone when there is nothing you can do to make things better.
Your brain may be nothing but meat, but it's meat that's craving some stimulation in the form of a delightful podcast conversation between your favorite Guy sisters! So take a listen!
Content warning: Discussions of child death, suicide, and depression. Take care with this one, y'all.
Tags:
deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, romance, pop culture, women, mental health, psychology, cult classic, cultural commentary, film analysis, movies, movie reviews, feminism, film, nostalgia, 80s and 90s movies, robin williams, cuba gooding jr, richard matheson, annabella sciorra, rosalind chao
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
What I I liked about the idea of heaven and how it's
different from like heaven inlike the good place is that it
doesn't require likeinfrastructure from the outside.
Like in the good place, heavendidn't work because people got
bored.
Right.
Whereas here, heaven is what youcreate with your own mind.
(00:23):
And so it's there until it's notanymore.
Like basically.
That to me fixes that issue.
Like heaven, you like you can'tget bored because it's what you
create.
And I really appreciate that.
It's this sense of like you arecreating what is meaningful to
(00:44):
you and joyful for you.
It's a view of heaven that Ifeel like is is kind of organic
in a way that works for me.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
I'm Emily Guy Birken, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1998 film What Dreams MayCome with my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
So, Trace, I'm pretty sureyou've never seen this film.
(01:37):
It came out after we, you know,had both left the nest.
Tell me what, if anything, is inyour head about it.
Yeah, I've never seen this film.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
So if it was 98, that's the year I graduated from
college.
So I was busy doing that andlike trying to get a job and all
those things.
So what's in my head actually isI have an acquaintance, a
friend, the couple is about 10years older than I am, I think,
10, 10 to 15 years older than Iam.
And they told me that they wentto see this movie on like their
second date or something.
(02:06):
She took it real hard and likewas crying and stuff.
And like she told me that theway he handled it was how she
knew he was the one.
They've been married forwhatever, 30 years or something
since.
Yeah.
So I know Robin Williams is init, and I know he's dead, or
they're dead, or everyone'sdead.
There's death.
I know there's death in RobinWilliams, and they're in heaven,
and that's it.
(02:27):
That's all I got.
So why are we talking about ittoday?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
So I saw this movie within like around when it came
out.
I'm not sure if I saw it in thetheater or not.
I can't remember.
And it really stuck with me.
There were aspects of it thatnow, first of all, it is just
visually gorgeous.
And the view of what theafterlife is like was something
that I really appreciated andreally liked.
(02:54):
So it stuck with me.
And then I also, you and I bothloved Robin Williams.
And I really loved when he didserious roles.
And this role was really a goodone for him because it allowed
him to show that kind of big joythat he could show, but also
(03:15):
gave him the opportunity for thelike the depth of his dramatic
chops as well.
But I have complex feelingsabout this film because it is
there's some ugliness within itthat I didn't necessarily see
when I first saw it, having todo with race.
(03:35):
And it is based on a RichardMatheson novel.
Now, Richard Matheson, if you'renot familiar with the name, he
also wrote I Am Legend.
Oh, I have read I Am Legend.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Yes.
Yeah, that's definitely there'sso you have to just sort of like
just put aside, like, yeah, it'sthere's some serious misogyny in
misogyny.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
Yes.
So Richard Matheson was a majorinfluence on Stephen King.
And so in the early 2000s, Iwent through a kind of Richard
Matheson tear at our locallibrary in Columbus, Ohio,
because of his influence onStephen King.
And Richard Matheson had thisincredible imagination when it
(04:19):
came to the fantastical.
But what was truly fantasticalto him was the idea that women
were people.
He didn't.
I mean, I only read that one.
Yes.
That run I am legend, but like,yeah, no, they were not.
And despite the fact that everysingle time I read one of his
books, I was just like, what thefuck, Dick?
Every single time I dove backin.
(04:42):
I think this was probably thefirst one that I read because I
I knew the movie, and I washorrified by the way that the
characterization of Annie, whichthey updated and made better for
the film, but it's still in thefilm.
And so unusually for our format,I am going to be talking about
(05:03):
the book because it's part ofwhy I have complex feelings
about this film.
That's why this movie isimportant to me, why it ended up
on the list.
It is, I had only seen it oncebefore seeing it again this
weekend to prepare for this, butI thought about it for years.
And there were years in betweenwhen I saw the film and when I
read the book.
(05:23):
So that to me is the mark ofgood storytelling, good
filmmaking.
And so something reminded me ofit recently.
And I was like, oh, I reallywant to re-watch this.
I want to talk about this.
So I want to give you somepostcards from the destination.
Since it takes place in heaven,it's about what the afterlife
looks like.
(05:44):
I am going to be talking aboutwhat the idea of like the kind
of theological implications, thecosmology of it.
The cosmology, thank you.
That's the word I'm looking for.
The cosmology of this story,which I is part of the reason
why I really liked it so much.
And I also really likedMatheson's version of it, even
(06:05):
though he couldn't comprehendthe idea of women being people.
So I want to talk aboutparenting because the first time
watching it, that is what I tookaway from it was about Robin
Williams's character, hisrelationship with his children.
And so I'm going to want to talkabout mental health because
there's a big portion of that,and suicide is an aspect of it
(06:27):
as well.
So just trigger warning toanyone listening, and we'll put
this in the show notes as well.
But there's also issues withsome weird things with race in
this film and misogyny that aresome vestiges of Matheson's
work.
And then there's also artthroughout.
So there's a lot in here.
It's it's it's a it's a richtext, let's put it that way.
(06:49):
Since you haven't seen it, I'llgive you the kind of broad
strokes.
There's actually, it's a fairlystraightforward story.
We meet Chris and Annie.
They have a meet cute on a lakethat is somewhere near
Switzerland where Chris is in aboat that is, it's just a little
like rowboat, and it is bangedby a sailboat that Annie is on,
(07:11):
and she is speaking to him inItalian, saying, like, which way
is Switzerland?
They end up realizing they'reboth American, and he says, I
think it's that way.
They then end up meeting on ahill nearby, and we hear some
from voiceover Chris saying,When I was young, I met a
beautiful woman.
And this is their very briefmeet cute.
(07:34):
We are made to understand thatthey are soulmates, that they
they meet, they instantly knowthat they are the ones for each
other.
And we see very briefly themgetting married, and then it is
almost immediately we see themin this gorgeous house with
their two children, who areabout a 13-year-old boy named
Ian and about a nine or10-year-old girl named Marie.
(07:58):
And we see them on a very normalmorning having the conversation
about what they're going to bedoing that day.
The Marie asking the mom, canyou please drive us so I don't
have to wait forever in theafternoon?
And Annie saying, like, no, I'msorry, I can't.
The nanny is going to drive you.
We see them riding off, andChris's voiceover saying that's
(08:18):
the last time we saw them alive.
And we later come to find outthat there was a terrible car
accident.
It was not the nanny's fault.
There was a semi-truck driver.
We don't get the details, butAnnie blamed herself because had
she been driving, she has thisirrational and she knows it's
irrational, but there's thisirrational belief that she,
(08:41):
because of her like maternalinstincts, would have been able
to find a way to avoid thecrash.
We then see four years later,Chris is a pediatrician.
We see him with a patient.
He is clearly very good withchildren.
And he gets a phone call fromAnnie, who is kind of freaking
out.
She works at a museum and she'ssaying there are eight paintings
(09:04):
that are not going to make it intime for the exhibit.
I don't know what to do.
And she's clearly kind offragile.
Chris says something to hispatient about he's asking her to
do something, like see if youcan do that for longer than she
talks.
So, like it's gentle teasing.
So he says, No worries.
You've got this, that, theother.
I can grab this.
(09:25):
I'll go home and get them andbring them to you.
And she says, okay.
And she's like, I'm reallysorry, it's double D Day, but I
I won't be home in time fordinner, but I will be home.
And we don't know what double DDay is.
We see Chris driving, and thereis a terrible car accident in
front of him.
He grabs his doctor bag and goesto help.
(09:46):
The accident happened in atunnel.
Another car like spins out ofcontrol and hits him.
And so he is then killed.
He wakes up and there is thisblurred image who Chris keeps
calling Doc, who is telling himyou are dead.
And he is observing his funeral.
(10:08):
And he's trying to stay aroundAnnie.
He's saying, Doc, what happensnow?
I've been to my funeral, what'sgoing on?
And he's trying to tell Annie,I'm still here, I'm still with
you, babe.
And she like freaks out everytime he gets close to her.
It's like she he's haunting her.
And Doc finally tells him, Whenyou decide to stop hurting her,
you can move on.
(10:28):
And so once he realizes itreally is hurting her to be
close to her, he leaves and hewakes up in heaven.
And his heaven is clearly one ofthe paintings that Annie has
painted.
We have seen that in addition toshe's a museum curator, she does
art restoration, but she paintsher own paintings as well.
And so it's a painting that shehas made.
(10:49):
And he wakes up, it's alandscape, but everything is
paint.
And so like it's getting comingoff on him.
We've seen in flashbacks theirdog Katie, who had been Marie's
dog, who they'd had to put down,and they'd seen a flashback of
that about how we are doing thisbecause we love her.
Katie is young again and comesbarking up to him, and he's
(11:11):
like, Oh my goodness, you'reyoung again.
And he's like, I screwed up.
I end up in dog heaven.
Um so he starts exploring and hesees on the water, walking on
the water, a man played by CubaGooding Jr.
saying, You didn't think I'dstay 63, did you?
(11:32):
That's the last time you saw me.
He realizes it is his mentor,Albert Lewis, who was the doctor
who mentored him during hisresidency.
Albert kind of shows him aroundand helps him understand that if
you think it, it happens here.
And he tries to get him to walkacross the water and Chris can't
(11:52):
do it.
He's blocking under the water.
And he's saying, you know, well,what?
Are you your body?
Well, yeah.
You know, are you your arm oryour leg?
Well, if you lose your arm andyour leg, are you still you,
you?
It was like, okay, well, I guessI'm my brain.
Well, brains just meet.
And, you know, trying to talkhim through what the cosmology
of this is until he starts tounderstand it.
(12:14):
At one point, Chris sees astuffed animal that had belonged
to Marie, and he says, Where'smy daughter?
I want to see my kids.
And Albert says, You'll see themwhen you're ready to see them.
Chris goes to sleep in the housethat was in the painting that
Annie had painted.
We meanwhile see that Annie isnot doing well, obviously.
(12:36):
And these things areinterspersed with some
flashbacks to what was happeningwith them when the kids were
alive, and then in the fouryears between when the kids
passed away and when Chris died.
And so the next morning, whenChris wakes up, there is a woman
named Leona who is dressed kindof like a flight attendant.
(12:58):
She is Asian, she's got a flowerin her hair, who says, Albert
had to work.
He sent me.
You seem a little isolated here.
Would you like to see a city?
And he's like, I don't know,travel makes me a little
nauseous.
And she said, Don't worry, justclose your eyes and closes his
eyes and he opens them.
And he is in a like verystylized city with people on
(13:21):
like penny farthings and peopleflying and there's stairs and
canals.
And it is very much like artworkthat was in his daughter's room.
And they get into a boat, Leonaand Chris.
She asks him about his children,and she he tells her about
playing chess with Marie, how hetaught her to play chess, and
(13:44):
she said, I like that I haven'twon yet when they'd been playing
for like three hours.
He said, Well, you're new.
She said, No, I like it becauseit means you're not, you're not
being easy on me.
You're not cheating.
I want to play until I win.
And he said, We played everynight for three months.
It was before she died, and shenever won.
And then he realizes that Leonais his daughter.
(14:06):
And he said, Do you play chesshere?
And he she said, I was waitingfor my partner.
And then she turns into Marie.
And she says, explains why shelooks like Leona.
And she says, We went toSingapore once, and my daddy
said, uh, smiled at the flightattendant and said something
about how Asian women are sograceful and lovely and
(14:26):
intelligent.
And I wanted to be like thatwhen I grew up.
And Chris says, I didn't meanonly Asian women.
That's a moment I want to comeback to.
Whoo! I know.
Okay, I know.
It's a moment I want to comeback to.
So he's reunited with Marie.
Albert comes back and tells himthat Annie has died by suicide.
(14:48):
And unfortunately, there is ahell in this place.
And it's not a hell ofpunishment.
It is a place where people don'tknow that they're dead.
And specifically, you stay stuckin the mental loops that you
were stuck in in life.
Because Chris, his firstreaction is like, This is awful,
(15:11):
but okay, she's here.
When can I see her?
You can't.
Okay, well, at least her herpain is over.
It's not.
And so he says, All right, I'mgonna go get her and bring her
here.
And Albert says, That's notpossible.
You can't.
And he says, I don't care.
I'm gonna do this.
All right, well, let's go find atracker.
(15:32):
There's someone who can helptrack her.
You think about her, and thatwill help find her in that part
of the afterlife.
And so we go from thesebeautiful, like wonderful
heavenly images to like kind ofhyonymous Bosch type places.
As they're going through this,the tracker, whose name we never
(15:55):
get, the movie calls him thetracker, who's played by Max von
Siddau.
He's older, like German kind ofguy.
He's one of those you'd know himif you saw him.
Got it.
He is talking to Chris aboutlike, were you proud of your
children?
And he goes, Of course.
And he says, that's a an easyanswer.
(16:15):
The tracker says, I was apsychiatrist in life.
And Chris is saying, like,Albert is like a really sweet
kid.
I mean, I guess I didn't knowhim when he was a young man.
And we start seeing intercutsome things about Ian, his son,
who was struggling in school anddid not do well and felt like he
(16:38):
couldn't live up to his father,who was this, you know,
pediatrician who was who wasapparently very, very smart and
accomplished.
And there was a time where hetook him, they lived in
apparently California, took himout to the Redwoods and like
they went hiking together andwere having fun, and was telling
him, I want to take you out ofthe school where you are because
it's not good for you.
(16:59):
And and Ian was angry about it.
He's like, Don't take me out ofthe school.
Like you taught me never giveup.
You're making me making it feellike I'm not good enough.
So as they're trying to find theway, the tracker saying, I've
lost the trace of Annie.
Chris keeps looking at Albert,and you see in the flashback, he
says, If I had to go throughhell, the only person I'd want
(17:20):
by my side is you, Ian.
And that's when he realizes thatAlbert is actually Ian.
They get to a point where it'slike a gate and like terrifying.
And Albert is trying to break inthere.
And Chris grabs him and is like,No, your mother's not in there,
Ian, and grabs him and is like,I know who you are.
(17:42):
And the tracker says, We need toleave Ian behind because he's
distracting you.
You need to go, just the trackerand Chris need to go get get
Annie.
And Chris and Ian try to arguewith him, but finally the
tracker convinces Ian.
Ian says, I took the form ofAlbert because he's the only
person you ever listened to.
(18:02):
I think he says he's the onlyman you ever listened to.
So listen now.
Go with him, find mom, bring herback.
So they go, they find Annie in ahouse that is like a mirror,
like nightmare image of thehouse they lived in in the real
world.
The tracker reveals that he'sactually Albert.
(18:23):
Oh.
And he says, Do you recall whatmy specialty was prior to
becoming a pediatrician?
It was pediatric psychiatry.
And so there's a conversationabout like why we changed change
our forms here.
It's so that people don't havepreconceived notions about us.
And one of the things he says,like, he says, When you knew me,
(18:44):
something like these glasseswere a different shape,
something like there was nohair, and my skin was black,
something like that.
So he explains, like So I'msorry, wait, who what does he
look like?
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
It's like I thought you said it was Cuba Gooden Jr.
What does he look like?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
So Maximon Siddow is is playing the tracker.
Oh, right, right, right, right.
Okay.
Yeah.
So the tracker makes it clearthat he has brought Chris there
just to say goodbye becausethere is no way he is going to
convince Annie to come out ofher her madness.
And that he has three minutesbefore he joins her in her
(19:28):
madness.
And then he will not be able to,they will not be able to get him
out either.
He will be stuck there as wellin her madness.
So he's going to be there andthen we'll take him back to
heaven.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
So we see him go in, she does not recognize him.
And we know that that's notgonna happen.
We then start to see intercutwhat happened after the children
died.
She ended up in a facilitybecause she just her mental
health was so bad.
And at one point she said maybethat they needed to divorce and
(20:03):
then did not speak for a month.
So he came back and said hebrought a ticket saying it was a
one-way ticket to go awaybecause he says, I'm not making
you better.
And this is D-Day for adecision.
We need to make a decision aboutdivorce.
And she said, and it's the firsttime she spoke in a month.
Isn't that a double D Day?
And so they decide to reconcileand she tears up the ticket.
(20:28):
And so from then on, they theycelebrate double D Day as an
anniversary.
And it's clear that she feltabandoned because he kept going
while she couldn't in life.
So he is in there, he tells herthis story, and he's in the
madness in there in the housewith hello.
(20:51):
Tells her this story, seems tobe getting through to her, and
then doesn't.
And then he comes and he's she'slike, like, get away from me.
And he says to her, thank youfor beautiful life.
Thank you for our children.
Thank you.
And he says a couple ofdifferent things.
The one that I really loved isthank you for the fights.
We had such glorious fights, andI thank you for them.
(21:14):
And you know, a couple otherthings, I love you.
And then he leaves, and youthink that he's leaving, but he
goes back to the tracker and hesays, I'm staying with her.
I'm coming back to tell you togo back to the children and tell
them I'm staying with theirmother.
I won't leave her alone in this.
And he goes back into the house,and he you see him start to lose
(21:36):
his memory of who he is.
And he said, basically says,Like, I can't fix this for you.
I can't keep going.
There is nothing I can do, but Ican join you.
And so I will.
And there's a moment where shekind of like, as he's losing
himself, she recognizes him.
(21:57):
And then we have the super happyHollywood ending.
Where for no particular reasonthey both end wake up in heaven.
Because she What?
Because he broke her out of hermadness, she is able to for some
reason bring them both back toheaven?
Bring them, bring them both bothback to heaven.
Oh.
Oh, okay.
(22:17):
There has been some discussionabout the fact that you can be
reincarnated if you choose.
It's it's entirely optional.
And he says, What if we go backthrough again so we can we can
enjoy meeting each other againand you know make different
choices because they'd alwayssaid they wanted to grow old
together and they didn't getthat opportunity.
And so the end of the film is wesee a little boy and a little
(22:39):
girl with toy boats meeting eachother, and that's the end of the
film.
Okay.
So let me start with themisogyny because that's that's
the thing that really pissed meoff about Matheson's book.
In the original book, Annie diesby suicide because Chris dies.
(23:02):
That's it.
She is the mother of sixchildren.
The children are all fine.
They are young.
They need Wait.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
In the book, she has six living children and six
living children.
And dies by suicide because herhusband dies.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
And dies by suicide because she cannot live without
her husband.
It's disgusting.
So the film made it much, much,much better for her choice like
is much more comprehensible.
SPEAKER_00 (23:33):
I mean, yes, even before Chris died.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
To lose your kids is so like, and that to me, like, I
remember reading that, goinglike, what the fuck is wrong
with this book?
And there are tiny elements ofthat still within the film
because it is men who mount thewhite horse and go to rescue
(23:59):
her.
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
You know, Marie's not among the the group going to
rescue her.
Now, she's supposed to be nineor ten.
Mm-hmm.
But it's but a brother's only13, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So that sense of needing to berescued is still in there.
And then the the meat cute, theway that Matheson had them meet
(24:23):
was they were on vacation, butChris in the book saw her and
wanted to meet her and asked herfor the time.
And she was so shy, she pointedat a nearby clock tower because
she didn't want to, she shecouldn't speak to him.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Because it was him, or she was that way with
everybody?
Because oh my god, a man.
So any man would have had thateffect.
Okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
So, and then the final thing that really pissed
me off about the book was in thethe cosmology of the book, she
was only going to stay in thehell realm until the time when
she would have naturally died.
So, yes, she would have been ina horrible state, but
(25:12):
considering the fact that sheleft her children alone, I'm
like, no, she needs to stay andthink about what she did.
I mean, I don't want to makelight of mental illness, and I
don't want to like well, butthat's just it though.
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
Like the the way that Matheson wrote it, it
wasn't even mental illness.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
It was like I can't live without my man.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Like a a just like a yeah, a male fantasy that like
you're so all-consuming to yourwoman.
She would rather die than livewithout you, even with the
responsibilities of motherhood,which are supposed to, in that
kind of toxic male worldview,supposed to trump everything,
but yeah, yeah, apparently notthe love of your man.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Yeah.
So, so all of that isfrustrating.
Now, we do have like I feel likeAnnie has more agency in the
film.
There's a scene we see betweenAnnie and Chris where they're
arguing about Ian and hisschool, and she's saying to him,
like, how fucked up is it thatour kid thinks he is he's
(26:17):
disappointing you?
And like we and and that thatmoment where he says, Thank you
for our fights.
Like there is this sense of,there's a a clearer sense of
equality.
Annie's played by IsabelSkorina, Ski, I'm not sure if
I'm pronouncing her name right,who is just a stone called fox.
And that's not to say that RobinWilliams isn't a handsome man,
(26:37):
but I think he was older thanher.
And there's a definitely whenthey meet, there's a sense of
like, man, this woman's pretty.
So it gets into this kind ofickiness, which I also feel like
by explicitly describing them assoulmates where it's insta-love,
(26:57):
that just hits wrong because itfeels like it removes the
agency.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the notion ofsoulmates does remove agency.
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
It also like makes the stakes super high.
Right?
Like if if shit doesn't workout, like they almost got
divorced because things were sohard, and yet they're soulmates.
SPEAKER_01 (27:19):
Like, yeah, if you can't make it work with your
soulmate, like well, I mean, tobe fair, it's very difficult for
a married couple to survive theloss of a child, let alone No,
that's not what I'm suggesting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Yeah.
But like I'm saying when you putthe pressure of like God and the
universe wanted you to betogether, and that like that's
and especially because at leastthe way I understand it, like
that's it.
One and done.
Like, there isn't, there aren'tlike you don't have multiple
soul mates out there, yeah,right.
In most of these understandings,they think it's like one soul
(27:52):
that got split in two.
Yeah.
So when you layer that kind ofunderstanding of your romantic
partner on top of how hard itis, like relationships are hard.
They take hard, they take work,you know?
Yeah, yeah.
It just feels like unfairpressure, is is what I'm getting
at.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
And I also it also feels like it doesn't give us
the opportunity, us meremortals, the opportunity to have
a meaningful connection.
Because part of what we how weknow they're soulmates is she
paints something after he's diedthat he can see in heaven.
And like I would love in thiscosmology to believe that
(28:34):
someone I'm connected to wouldbe able to reach me through that
veil, you know, even if we'renot soulmates.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Right.
Yeah.
I sometimes will talk aboutlike, I think this metaphor must
have come from literaturesomewhere, but like the idea of
like the red thread betweensternums.
Like I think we stitch thosewith our shared experience with
people.
Like we build that connection.
It's not like zapped there byGod.
(29:03):
Like we do that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:05):
Yeah.
And so that to me, like that,that's the other aspect of it,
is like soulmates means thatthey didn't have to do anything
for it.
And that's not true.
We see that they built, theyworked hard.
Yeah.
They worked really hard to beable to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
To thank her for the fights makes proof of that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
Yeah.
And then the fact that at theend, the way that he solves
their crisis is to join her inher suffering, which is part of
the reason why I like thismovie, is like that is beautiful
to me.
That like when there is nosolution, when all there is is
pain, you can be there with theperson you love in their pain.
(29:44):
That's gorgeous.
That is gorgeous and likelife-affirming and meaningful.
And he calls himself, he waslike, I was a coward in life
because he didn't join her inher pain.
And to be fair, I don't know howhe could have.
Like after the children died?
After the children died.
She says, Why are you not inhere with me?
And like someone had to pay thebills, you know, someone had to
(30:08):
keep going.
And he says, I was a coward.
And, you know, never giving upwas the easy way for me.
You know, getting up and puttingmy shoes on and going to work
and paying the bills was easy.
But there were other ways hecould have joined her in her
pain that she he didn't.
Right.
And he recognizes that.
That's why I think this moviestuck with me for years, even
(30:32):
though I also have very complexfeelings about it.
And to that end, let's I let'sgo to that moment with his
daughter.
So when I saw this movie, so itcame out in '98.
I was about 19 when it came out.
I'm not sure that's when I sawit, but around then, I
identified with Marie.
As the daughter, I have alwayshad this sense, be careful, your
(30:53):
parents don't know whatthrowaway line they say is going
to stick with you.
And because of that, and becauseof like this moment in this
movie, I have tried very hard tobe cognizant of what throwaway
lines I say in front of my kidsthat might stick with them.
Can't always know.
Because you can never know,frankly.
(31:15):
Never know.
But I try, try not to have, if Irealize that I've said something
that is not something I want mykids to hold on to, I try to go
back and readdress it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
So that whole thing about the like Asian women isn't
is new to the movie because inthe book, the I honestly cannot
recall.
SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
Okay.
I cannot recall if they took ona different I I have no memory
of that whatsoever in the book.
Okay.
So because I think I definitelyin 1998, and again in like 2001
when I read the book, or 2002, Idefinitely did not have the same
kind of understanding of racismand microaggressions that I do
(31:57):
now.
So at the time it was like, oh,I can see where a little girl
would internalize that.
I didn't would not have noticedit in the book.
But are his children in thebook?
Yes.
Oh gosh.
Oh, right, right, right.
It wouldn't have been in thebook because the children,
children didn't die.
Right.
That's why I'm asking.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's why I was assuming it wasnew to the movie.
Because the children live.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the whole thing with themchanging form and stuff,
presumably.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
Yeah.
I think Albert was probably inthe book, but good point.
Yeah.
I was thinking about RosalindChow, who plays Leona.
Mm-hmm.
And what it would have felt liketo take that part.
It's gross.
I was also thinking about likeCuba Gooding Jr., who has like
(32:46):
he's he is the second billingafter Robin Williams.
He's got a like a significantpart of this movie.
And in 1998, it would have beenprogressive for Robin Williams's
character mentoring if he's beena black man.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
But then the real Albert took the form of Max von
Sitau.
Right.
Right.
And it like just race is a mess.
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
Yeah.
Especially because there's asense that like you think it and
it happens.
So then if we extrapolate theimplication is that Albert like
thinks of himself as a Germandude, a white German dude.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (33:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:35):
It's kind of weird.
Let's while we're staying onthis, like, you think it and it
happens.
Can we talk about like moreabout the nature of the
afterlife and the cosmology ofit and and sort of where you
landed with that?
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
There's never really any true explanation of like how
it is that you continue to existafter death.
You know, there's theconversation between Albertslash
Ian and Chris where, you know,like, are you are your arm or
your leg?
You know, if you lose those,you're still you.
Your brain is just meat, meatrots, but you're still you.
(34:10):
And what I I liked about theidea of heaven and how it's
different from like heaven inlike the good place is that it
doesn't require likeinfrastructure from the outside.
Like in the good place, heavendidn't work because people got
bored.
Right.
Whereas here, heaven is what youcreate with your own mind.
(34:35):
And so it's there until it's notanymore.
Like basically, that to me fixesthat issue.
Like heaven, you like you can'tget bored because it's what you
create.
And time doesn't mean anything.
And I really appreciate that.
It's this sense of like you arecreating what is meaningful to
(34:58):
you and joyful for you.
It doesn't require maintenancein the way that like heaven in
the good place does.
And then that also to me tellsme that there is a point at
which it ceases to be becausewhatever you are ceases to be.
And that's fine too.
(35:19):
You know, it's a view of heaventhat I feel like is is kind of
organic in a way that works forme.
And then the other thing that Iliked is that when Albert has to
work, Chris says to Leona, like,there's work here, I like that.
And she says, Yes, if you chooseto.
I work with animals.
Albert works with with soulsthat have trouble getting here.
(35:43):
He helps them, helps themtraverse here.
And so it's very idiosyncratic.
And I read there have been acouple of Christian commentators
who talk about this film.
One was saying that in a kind ofa negative way, that it's a very
American view of the afterlife.
Okay, yeah, fair.
I think that that's a that's afair way of uh viewpoint because
(36:03):
it is very individual andidiosyncratic.
Marie's afterlife looks like theartwork in her room.
But I think that is also whatmakes it meaningful because it's
what's meaningful to theindividual and it's what's
joyful for the individual.
SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
Let's talk about the artwork component then, right?
So, like the actual like visualarts from life becomes an
important player in afterlife,which you and I both have a lot
of art in our homes.
Like I can imagine some of thepaintings in my place, but not
everybody does.
Like, I don't know how how doesthe it's like an interesting
(36:40):
take, but then when Iextrapolate it out, what does
that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
When they go to find the tracker, he's in this giant
like canal area that is linedwith libraries' books.
So different parts havedifferent things based on what's
important to different people,presumably.
Huh.
Okay.
And nothing's ever entirelyexplained.
(37:09):
Presumably, if you can think it,it becomes, and it can become
for other people if they'rewilling to, you know, share the
thought with you.
They make a comment at one pointthat art is is so important to
Chris.
That's part of it and wouldexplain why that is what's going
on with all the members of hisfamily.
And you know, would help explainwhy he experiences hell as like
(37:32):
a herous Bosch painting.
SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
Yeah, let's talk about hell and and mental
health, right?
So we've got Annie in a form ofhell, which is like a nightmare
version of the real world.
Yeah.
And she doesn't recognize Chrisat first.
She doesn't recognize him at alluntil he has joined her in her
suffering.
Oh, so as an outsider, she doesnot recognize him.
(37:59):
Hmm.
Misery loves company.
Literally.
Yeah, exactly.
Huh.
That feels kind of dangerous,honestly.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
Yeah, I um in Roger Ebert's contemporaneous review,
he he said that he loved themovie until the end.
He felt like the end, like itwas building towards something
and didn't get there.
SPEAKER_00 (38:23):
And yeah, I mean, if a person is drowning, like
drowning with them doesn't feellike the solution.
And so the implication that thedrowning person can't even
recognize who you are until youget in and start drowning with
them.
I mean, I heard what you said,and I don't disagree about kind
of the idea of like sitting inthe hole with the person just to
(38:48):
be present and witness.
But there's a difference betweenbeing present and witnessing and
like actually drowning withthem.
SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
Hence my complex feelings about this film.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, I see why.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
And what they say about hell is like it's the
people who don't know thatthey're dead.
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
But that still doesn't like the complaint, it
remains.
Like she doesn't know she's deadand she doesn't recognize the
man whose death was part of whatcaused her to give up on living.
I don't know.
That like even sort of his I wasa coward, I hear that.
I ran from my feelings.
(39:28):
That's what I hear, right?
I ran from the grief rather thanfeeling it.
And still, like, I don't know.
Like, it doesn't sound like thekind of thing the way it's
described is like he has to stayand go mad with her, is not the
kind of like, you're shoulderinga heavy burden, let me help you
carry it.
(39:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
At the same time, I would have a hard time
understanding how if she's goingto be there forever, how he
could turn around and go back toheaven.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
Agreed.
But I feel like our critiquehere is not with his choices,
but with the cosmology.
Sure.
Like he was the cosmology as thefilmmakers and I presumably
Matheson understood it, likemade this the only choice that
the viewer would accept.
But like Newsflash, we don'tactually know what happens.
(40:23):
Like we could have written itdifferently.
Yeah.
Could have could have written itdifferently.
I don't know.
Yeah.
And like, especially becauselike the extrapolation for
mental health and like how heshould have, I'm putting quotes
around the word should when hewas still alive in those four
years between when the childrendied and when he died, in his
(40:44):
naming his cowardice.
Like, I'm not sure what we'remeant to extrapolate.
I mean, in terms of how heshould have, I'm putting quotes
again around that word, behavedand you know, worked through her
mental health issues.
It sounds like we did see him,like sh she was getting support
from professionals in the in thefacility.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
And uh well, and and that's part of it too, is like
there is no guidebook.
There's there's no like stereoinstructions that tell you what
you how you know what to do tohave how to help.
And he's going through it too.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
Right.
They were right.
His kids are also dead.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yeah.
So this is a very, very heavyfilm in a lot of ways, even as
it's also a very joyful film ina lot of ways.
So, like I really appreciatedthat he stays with her at the
end because he's he what he saysis I'm giving up because
throughout he says, I don't giveup.
(41:43):
Like that's you know, you keepgoing.
And when he when he goes to thetracker and he says, I'm giving
up, but not in the way that youthink I am.
I'm not giving up on her.
And I appreciated that becauseit was there is something about
that about the like he does itafter he's dead.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (42:03):
When it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
They're not no stakes.
I mean eternal suffering.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
It's eternal suffering, but it's only his.
It's his eternal suffering.
His kids, it's gonna beupsetting for his kids, but he
has the tracker to go back andtell them like what's going on,
and that he's doing this becausehe doesn't want her to be alone.
Right.
And so there is something soaffirming about that, about that
(42:33):
choice.
I I don't know.
I it just it hits me right inthe feels.
And I don't want that to bebecause they're soulmates.
I want that to be because theybuilt a life together.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Yeah, agreed.
We are running short on time.
So I'm gonna ask you to save anyadditional thoughts for the shit
we forgot to say that we willshare with our patrons as bonus
content.
And I'm gonna see if I can'treflect back to you some of the
things that we talked about.
So, this film, we spent a lot oftime talking about sort of the
(43:05):
misogyny in the Mathesonoriginal and the ways that even
sort of vestiges come through inthis film.
And the way that that manifestsis in essentially removing
agency from Annie to a largeextent.
In the Matheson, it was in likewriting this character who was
just unrealistic, so much sothat like the love, it's it just
(43:30):
reads a self-insert to me thatlike Matheson wanted desperately
for a woman to love him so muchthat were he to die, she
couldn't keep going, regardlessof what uh what else was in her
life.
So we spent a good amount oftime talking about that.
We talked a bit about race andsome of the choices in this
(43:52):
movie that sort of read reallyproblematic today.
In 1998, when it was made, no.
Doubt it was progressive toimagine that a doctor who looked
like Robin Williams's mentor wasa doctor who, at least as a
young man, looked like KubikGetting Jr.
And then that person, that soul,chooses to look like a German
(44:18):
dude whose name I don'tremember.
SPEAKER_01 (44:20):
Max von Sidau.
SPEAKER_00 (44:21):
That guy.
I was gonna say von Helsing, andI knew that was wrong.
It's a different, differentGerman thing.
SPEAKER_01 (44:27):
Does not sex with him.
unknown (44:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
Yeah.
So like that's a weird like theimplications when we extrapolate
are that Cuba Gooding Jr.
like would rather be Von Siddao.
Like, what?
No.
The other piece, like the thelittle girl who sort of comes to
her dad as an Asian woman, thelittle white girl who comes to
(44:53):
her dad as an Asian womanbecause of his offhanded comment
about how much he admired theway Asian women look and move,
which is kind of ugly inRewatch.
Yeah.
We also talked a bit about artand like the idea of art as a
part of the afterlife, thecosmology of the afterlife.
(45:14):
And that's really sort ofinteresting.
Like I asked the question whatabout people for whom art is
just not that important, visualart, and presumably other things
that are important to them wouldshow up in their heaven, like I
don't know, video games.
Yeah.
We talked too about mentalhealth and sort of the idea that
(45:37):
this film makes necessity, thatkind of suffering alongside is
the highest and best response,which this film sets up that
that's the punchline.
That is the only only acceptablepunchline.
And I question whether or notthat is, in fact, the only
acceptable punchline.
(45:57):
Speaking of only acceptable,like the idea of a soulmate,
that there is one true personwith whom you are supposed to
be, is really somewhatproblematic for both of us, I
think, insofar as it removes ouragency as human beings and
removes the significance of thevery hard work it is to build
long-term relationships, whetherthey're romantic or otherwise,
(46:20):
and sort of stitching our cell,our lives together as opposed to
just having, you know, theuniverse kind of zap it
together.
Did I forget anything?
SPEAKER_01 (46:28):
The cosmology of how hell is a place where you don't
know that you're dead and thethe meaning behind that.
I find that very interesting andworthy of thought.
And I do want to nuance the ideathat like suffering with someone
who's suffering, they do make itclear.
(46:49):
Like it is it happens when it'slow stakes, not no stakes, but
low stakes.
So I do want to make that yes.
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
And he talks about having been a coward when there
were more stakes.
So there is still judgment ofthe earlier time.
Yeah.
So and next week, it's my turn,and I don't remember.
Enemy mine.
Right! I'm gonna bring you mydeep thoughts about enemy mine.
(47:18):
Huh.
Better figure out where I canstream that.
See you next week.
See you next week.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
(47:39):
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
(48:01):
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
What I I liked about the idea of heaven and how it's
different from like heaven inlike the good place is that it
doesn't require likeinfrastructure from the outside.
Like in the good place, heavendidn't work because people got
bored.
Right.
Whereas here, heaven is what youcreate with your own mind.
(00:23):
And so it's there until it's notanymore.
Like basically.
That to me fixes that issue.
Like heaven, you like you can'tget bored because it's what you
create.
And I really appreciate that.
It's this sense of like you arecreating what is meaningful to
(00:44):
you and joyful for you.
It's a view of heaven that Ifeel like is is kind of organic
in a way that works for me.
SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
I'm Emily Guy Birken, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture, and shouldn't you know
what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1998 film What Dreams MayCome with my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
So, Trace, I'm pretty sureyou've never seen this film.
(01:37):
It came out after we, you know,had both left the nest.
Tell me what, if anything, is inyour head about it.
Yeah, I've never seen this film.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
So if it was 98, that's the year I graduated from
college.
So I was busy doing that andlike trying to get a job and all
those things.
So what's in my head actually isI have an acquaintance, a
friend, the couple is about 10years older than I am, I think,
10, 10 to 15 years older than Iam.
And they told me that they wentto see this movie on like their
second date or something.
(02:06):
She took it real hard and likewas crying and stuff.
And like she told me that theway he handled it was how she
knew he was the one.
They've been married forwhatever, 30 years or something
since.
Yeah.
So I know Robin Williams is init, and I know he's dead, or
they're dead, or everyone'sdead.
There's death.
I know there's death in RobinWilliams, and they're in heaven,
and that's it.
(02:27):
That's all I got.
So why are we talking about ittoday?
SPEAKER_01 (02:31):
So I saw this movie within like around when it came
out.
I'm not sure if I saw it in thetheater or not.
I can't remember.
And it really stuck with me.
There were aspects of it thatnow, first of all, it is just
visually gorgeous.
And the view of what theafterlife is like was something
that I really appreciated andreally liked.
(02:54):
So it stuck with me.
And then I also, you and I bothloved Robin Williams.
And I really loved when he didserious roles.
And this role was really a goodone for him because it allowed
him to show that kind of big joythat he could show, but also
(03:15):
gave him the opportunity for thelike the depth of his dramatic
chops as well.
But I have complex feelingsabout this film because it is
there's some ugliness within itthat I didn't necessarily see
when I first saw it, having todo with race.
(03:35):
And it is based on a RichardMatheson novel.
Now, Richard Matheson, if you'renot familiar with the name, he
also wrote I Am Legend.
Oh, I have read I Am Legend.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Yes.
Yeah, that's definitely there'sso you have to just sort of like
just put aside, like, yeah, it'sthere's some serious misogyny in
misogyny.
SPEAKER_01 (03:57):
Yes.
So Richard Matheson was a majorinfluence on Stephen King.
And so in the early 2000s, Iwent through a kind of Richard
Matheson tear at our locallibrary in Columbus, Ohio,
because of his influence onStephen King.
And Richard Matheson had thisincredible imagination when it
(04:19):
came to the fantastical.
But what was truly fantasticalto him was the idea that women
were people.
He didn't.
I mean, I only read that one.
Yes.
That run I am legend, but like,yeah, no, they were not.
And despite the fact that everysingle time I read one of his
books, I was just like, what thefuck, Dick?
Every single time I dove backin.
(04:42):
I think this was probably thefirst one that I read because I
I knew the movie, and I washorrified by the way that the
characterization of Annie, whichthey updated and made better for
the film, but it's still in thefilm.
And so unusually for our format,I am going to be talking about
(05:03):
the book because it's part ofwhy I have complex feelings
about this film.
That's why this movie isimportant to me, why it ended up
on the list.
It is, I had only seen it oncebefore seeing it again this
weekend to prepare for this, butI thought about it for years.
And there were years in betweenwhen I saw the film and when I
read the book.
(05:23):
So that to me is the mark ofgood storytelling, good
filmmaking.
And so something reminded me ofit recently.
And I was like, oh, I reallywant to re-watch this.
I want to talk about this.
So I want to give you somepostcards from the destination.
Since it takes place in heaven,it's about what the afterlife
looks like.
(05:44):
I am going to be talking aboutwhat the idea of like the kind
of theological implications, thecosmology of it.
The cosmology, thank you.
That's the word I'm looking for.
The cosmology of this story,which I is part of the reason
why I really liked it so much.
And I also really likedMatheson's version of it, even
(06:05):
though he couldn't comprehendthe idea of women being people.
So I want to talk aboutparenting because the first time
watching it, that is what I tookaway from it was about Robin
Williams's character, hisrelationship with his children.
And so I'm going to want to talkabout mental health because
there's a big portion of that,and suicide is an aspect of it
(06:27):
as well.
So just trigger warning toanyone listening, and we'll put
this in the show notes as well.
But there's also issues withsome weird things with race in
this film and misogyny that aresome vestiges of Matheson's
work.
And then there's also artthroughout.
So there's a lot in here.
It's it's it's a it's a richtext, let's put it that way.
(06:49):
Since you haven't seen it, I'llgive you the kind of broad
strokes.
There's actually, it's a fairlystraightforward story.
We meet Chris and Annie.
They have a meet cute on a lakethat is somewhere near
Switzerland where Chris is in aboat that is, it's just a little
like rowboat, and it is bangedby a sailboat that Annie is on,
(07:11):
and she is speaking to him inItalian, saying, like, which way
is Switzerland?
They end up realizing they'reboth American, and he says, I
think it's that way.
They then end up meeting on ahill nearby, and we hear some
from voiceover Chris saying,When I was young, I met a
beautiful woman.
And this is their very briefmeet cute.
(07:34):
We are made to understand thatthey are soulmates, that they
they meet, they instantly knowthat they are the ones for each
other.
And we see very briefly themgetting married, and then it is
almost immediately we see themin this gorgeous house with
their two children, who areabout a 13-year-old boy named
Ian and about a nine or10-year-old girl named Marie.
(07:58):
And we see them on a very normalmorning having the conversation
about what they're going to bedoing that day.
The Marie asking the mom, canyou please drive us so I don't
have to wait forever in theafternoon?
And Annie saying, like, no, I'msorry, I can't.
The nanny is going to drive you.
We see them riding off, andChris's voiceover saying that's
(08:18):
the last time we saw them alive.
And we later come to find outthat there was a terrible car
accident.
It was not the nanny's fault.
There was a semi-truck driver.
We don't get the details, butAnnie blamed herself because had
she been driving, she has thisirrational and she knows it's
irrational, but there's thisirrational belief that she,
(08:41):
because of her like maternalinstincts, would have been able
to find a way to avoid thecrash.
We then see four years later,Chris is a pediatrician.
We see him with a patient.
He is clearly very good withchildren.
And he gets a phone call fromAnnie, who is kind of freaking
out.
She works at a museum and she'ssaying there are eight paintings
(09:04):
that are not going to make it intime for the exhibit.
I don't know what to do.
And she's clearly kind offragile.
Chris says something to hispatient about he's asking her to
do something, like see if youcan do that for longer than she
talks.
So, like it's gentle teasing.
So he says, No worries.
You've got this, that, theother.
I can grab this.
(09:25):
I'll go home and get them andbring them to you.
And she says, okay.
And she's like, I'm reallysorry, it's double D Day, but I
I won't be home in time fordinner, but I will be home.
And we don't know what double DDay is.
We see Chris driving, and thereis a terrible car accident in
front of him.
He grabs his doctor bag and goesto help.
(09:46):
The accident happened in atunnel.
Another car like spins out ofcontrol and hits him.
And so he is then killed.
He wakes up and there is thisblurred image who Chris keeps
calling Doc, who is telling himyou are dead.
And he is observing his funeral.
(10:08):
And he's trying to stay aroundAnnie.
He's saying, Doc, what happensnow?
I've been to my funeral, what'sgoing on?
And he's trying to tell Annie,I'm still here, I'm still with
you, babe.
And she like freaks out everytime he gets close to her.
It's like she he's haunting her.
And Doc finally tells him, Whenyou decide to stop hurting her,
you can move on.
(10:28):
And so once he realizes itreally is hurting her to be
close to her, he leaves and hewakes up in heaven.
And his heaven is clearly one ofthe paintings that Annie has
painted.
We have seen that in addition toshe's a museum curator, she does
art restoration, but she paintsher own paintings as well.
And so it's a painting that shehas made.
(10:49):
And he wakes up, it's alandscape, but everything is
paint.
And so like it's getting comingoff on him.
We've seen in flashbacks theirdog Katie, who had been Marie's
dog, who they'd had to put down,and they'd seen a flashback of
that about how we are doing thisbecause we love her.
Katie is young again and comesbarking up to him, and he's
(11:11):
like, Oh my goodness, you'reyoung again.
And he's like, I screwed up.
I end up in dog heaven.
Um so he starts exploring and hesees on the water, walking on
the water, a man played by CubaGooding Jr.
saying, You didn't think I'dstay 63, did you?
(11:32):
That's the last time you saw me.
He realizes it is his mentor,Albert Lewis, who was the doctor
who mentored him during hisresidency.
Albert kind of shows him aroundand helps him understand that if
you think it, it happens here.
And he tries to get him to walkacross the water and Chris can't
(11:52):
do it.
He's blocking under the water.
And he's saying, you know, well,what?
Are you your body?
Well, yeah.
You know, are you your arm oryour leg?
Well, if you lose your arm andyour leg, are you still you,
you?
It was like, okay, well, I guessI'm my brain.
Well, brains just meet.
And, you know, trying to talkhim through what the cosmology
of this is until he starts tounderstand it.
(12:14):
At one point, Chris sees astuffed animal that had belonged
to Marie, and he says, Where'smy daughter?
I want to see my kids.
And Albert says, You'll see themwhen you're ready to see them.
Chris goes to sleep in the housethat was in the painting that
Annie had painted.
We meanwhile see that Annie isnot doing well, obviously.
(12:36):
And these things areinterspersed with some
flashbacks to what was happeningwith them when the kids were
alive, and then in the fouryears between when the kids
passed away and when Chris died.
And so the next morning, whenChris wakes up, there is a woman
named Leona who is dressed kindof like a flight attendant.
(12:58):
She is Asian, she's got a flowerin her hair, who says, Albert
had to work.
He sent me.
You seem a little isolated here.
Would you like to see a city?
And he's like, I don't know,travel makes me a little
nauseous.
And she said, Don't worry, justclose your eyes and closes his
eyes and he opens them.
And he is in a like verystylized city with people on
(13:21):
like penny farthings and peopleflying and there's stairs and
canals.
And it is very much like artworkthat was in his daughter's room.
And they get into a boat, Leonaand Chris.
She asks him about his children,and she he tells her about
playing chess with Marie, how hetaught her to play chess, and
(13:44):
she said, I like that I haven'twon yet when they'd been playing
for like three hours.
He said, Well, you're new.
She said, No, I like it becauseit means you're not, you're not
being easy on me.
You're not cheating.
I want to play until I win.
And he said, We played everynight for three months.
It was before she died, and shenever won.
And then he realizes that Leonais his daughter.
(14:06):
And he said, Do you play chesshere?
And he she said, I was waitingfor my partner.
And then she turns into Marie.
And she says, explains why shelooks like Leona.
And she says, We went toSingapore once, and my daddy
said, uh, smiled at the flightattendant and said something
about how Asian women are sograceful and lovely and
(14:26):
intelligent.
And I wanted to be like thatwhen I grew up.
And Chris says, I didn't meanonly Asian women.
That's a moment I want to comeback to.
Whoo! I know.
Okay, I know.
It's a moment I want to comeback to.
So he's reunited with Marie.
Albert comes back and tells himthat Annie has died by suicide.
(14:48):
And unfortunately, there is ahell in this place.
And it's not a hell ofpunishment.
It is a place where people don'tknow that they're dead.
And specifically, you stay stuckin the mental loops that you
were stuck in in life.
Because Chris, his firstreaction is like, This is awful,
(15:11):
but okay, she's here.
When can I see her?
You can't.
Okay, well, at least her herpain is over.
It's not.
And so he says, All right, I'mgonna go get her and bring her
here.
And Albert says, That's notpossible.
You can't.
And he says, I don't care.
I'm gonna do this.
All right, well, let's go find atracker.
(15:32):
There's someone who can helptrack her.
You think about her, and thatwill help find her in that part
of the afterlife.
And so we go from thesebeautiful, like wonderful
heavenly images to like kind ofhyonymous Bosch type places.
As they're going through this,the tracker, whose name we never
(15:55):
get, the movie calls him thetracker, who's played by Max von
Siddau.
He's older, like German kind ofguy.
He's one of those you'd know himif you saw him.
Got it.
He is talking to Chris aboutlike, were you proud of your
children?
And he goes, Of course.
And he says, that's a an easyanswer.
(16:15):
The tracker says, I was apsychiatrist in life.
And Chris is saying, like,Albert is like a really sweet
kid.
I mean, I guess I didn't knowhim when he was a young man.
And we start seeing intercutsome things about Ian, his son,
who was struggling in school anddid not do well and felt like he
(16:38):
couldn't live up to his father,who was this, you know,
pediatrician who was who wasapparently very, very smart and
accomplished.
And there was a time where hetook him, they lived in
apparently California, took himout to the Redwoods and like
they went hiking together andwere having fun, and was telling
him, I want to take you out ofthe school where you are because
it's not good for you.
(16:59):
And and Ian was angry about it.
He's like, Don't take me out ofthe school.
Like you taught me never giveup.
You're making me making it feellike I'm not good enough.
So as they're trying to find theway, the tracker saying, I've
lost the trace of Annie.
Chris keeps looking at Albert,and you see in the flashback, he
says, If I had to go throughhell, the only person I'd want
(17:20):
by my side is you, Ian.
And that's when he realizes thatAlbert is actually Ian.
They get to a point where it'slike a gate and like terrifying.
And Albert is trying to break inthere.
And Chris grabs him and is like,No, your mother's not in there,
Ian, and grabs him and is like,I know who you are.
(17:42):
And the tracker says, We need toleave Ian behind because he's
distracting you.
You need to go, just the trackerand Chris need to go get get
Annie.
And Chris and Ian try to arguewith him, but finally the
tracker convinces Ian.
Ian says, I took the form ofAlbert because he's the only
person you ever listened to.
(18:02):
I think he says he's the onlyman you ever listened to.
So listen now.
Go with him, find mom, bring herback.
So they go, they find Annie in ahouse that is like a mirror,
like nightmare image of thehouse they lived in in the real
world.
The tracker reveals that he'sactually Albert.
(18:23):
Oh.
And he says, Do you recall whatmy specialty was prior to
becoming a pediatrician?
It was pediatric psychiatry.
And so there's a conversationabout like why we changed change
our forms here.
It's so that people don't havepreconceived notions about us.
And one of the things he says,like, he says, When you knew me,
(18:44):
something like these glasseswere a different shape,
something like there was nohair, and my skin was black,
something like that.
So he explains, like So I'msorry, wait, who what does he
look like?
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
It's like I thought you said it was Cuba Gooden Jr.
What does he look like?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
So Maximon Siddow is is playing the tracker.
Oh, right, right, right, right.
Okay.
Yeah.
So the tracker makes it clearthat he has brought Chris there
just to say goodbye becausethere is no way he is going to
convince Annie to come out ofher her madness.
And that he has three minutesbefore he joins her in her
(19:28):
madness.
And then he will not be able to,they will not be able to get him
out either.
He will be stuck there as wellin her madness.
So he's going to be there andthen we'll take him back to
heaven.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
So we see him go in, she does not recognize him.
And we know that that's notgonna happen.
We then start to see intercutwhat happened after the children
died.
She ended up in a facilitybecause she just her mental
health was so bad.
And at one point she said maybethat they needed to divorce and
(20:03):
then did not speak for a month.
So he came back and said hebrought a ticket saying it was a
one-way ticket to go awaybecause he says, I'm not making
you better.
And this is D-Day for adecision.
We need to make a decision aboutdivorce.
And she said, and it's the firsttime she spoke in a month.
Isn't that a double D Day?
And so they decide to reconcileand she tears up the ticket.
(20:28):
And so from then on, they theycelebrate double D Day as an
anniversary.
And it's clear that she feltabandoned because he kept going
while she couldn't in life.
So he is in there, he tells herthis story, and he's in the
madness in there in the housewith hello.
(20:51):
Tells her this story, seems tobe getting through to her, and
then doesn't.
And then he comes and he's she'slike, like, get away from me.
And he says to her, thank youfor beautiful life.
Thank you for our children.
Thank you.
And he says a couple ofdifferent things.
The one that I really loved isthank you for the fights.
We had such glorious fights, andI thank you for them.
(21:14):
And you know, a couple otherthings, I love you.
And then he leaves, and youthink that he's leaving, but he
goes back to the tracker and hesays, I'm staying with her.
I'm coming back to tell you togo back to the children and tell
them I'm staying with theirmother.
I won't leave her alone in this.
And he goes back into the house,and he you see him start to lose
(21:36):
his memory of who he is.
And he said, basically says,Like, I can't fix this for you.
I can't keep going.
There is nothing I can do, but Ican join you.
And so I will.
And there's a moment where shekind of like, as he's losing
himself, she recognizes him.
(21:57):
And then we have the super happyHollywood ending.
Where for no particular reasonthey both end wake up in heaven.
Because she What?
Because he broke her out of hermadness, she is able to for some
reason bring them both back toheaven?
Bring them, bring them both bothback to heaven.
Oh.
Oh, okay.
(22:17):
There has been some discussionabout the fact that you can be
reincarnated if you choose.
It's it's entirely optional.
And he says, What if we go backthrough again so we can we can
enjoy meeting each other againand you know make different
choices because they'd alwayssaid they wanted to grow old
together and they didn't getthat opportunity.
And so the end of the film is wesee a little boy and a little
(22:39):
girl with toy boats meeting eachother, and that's the end of the
film.
Okay.
So let me start with themisogyny because that's that's
the thing that really pissed meoff about Matheson's book.
In the original book, Annie diesby suicide because Chris dies.
(23:02):
That's it.
She is the mother of sixchildren.
The children are all fine.
They are young.
They need Wait.
SPEAKER_00 (23:10):
In the book, she has six living children and six
living children.
And dies by suicide because herhusband dies.
SPEAKER_01 (23:17):
And dies by suicide because she cannot live without
her husband.
It's disgusting.
So the film made it much, much,much better for her choice like
is much more comprehensible.
SPEAKER_00 (23:33):
I mean, yes, even before Chris died.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
To lose your kids is so like, and that to me, like, I
remember reading that, goinglike, what the fuck is wrong
with this book?
And there are tiny elements ofthat still within the film
because it is men who mount thewhite horse and go to rescue
(23:59):
her.
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
You know, Marie's not among the the group going to
rescue her.
Now, she's supposed to be nineor ten.
Mm-hmm.
But it's but a brother's only13, right?
Yeah, yeah.
So that sense of needing to berescued is still in there.
And then the the meat cute, theway that Matheson had them meet
(24:23):
was they were on vacation, butChris in the book saw her and
wanted to meet her and asked herfor the time.
And she was so shy, she pointedat a nearby clock tower because
she didn't want to, she shecouldn't speak to him.
SPEAKER_00 (24:40):
Because it was him, or she was that way with
everybody?
Because oh my god, a man.
So any man would have had thateffect.
Okay.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
So, and then the final thing that really pissed
me off about the book was in thethe cosmology of the book, she
was only going to stay in thehell realm until the time when
she would have naturally died.
So, yes, she would have been ina horrible state, but
(25:12):
considering the fact that sheleft her children alone, I'm
like, no, she needs to stay andthink about what she did.
I mean, I don't want to makelight of mental illness, and I
don't want to like well, butthat's just it though.
SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
Like the the way that Matheson wrote it, it
wasn't even mental illness.
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
It was like I can't live without my man.
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Like a a just like a yeah, a male fantasy that like
you're so all-consuming to yourwoman.
She would rather die than livewithout you, even with the
responsibilities of motherhood,which are supposed to, in that
kind of toxic male worldview,supposed to trump everything,
but yeah, yeah, apparently notthe love of your man.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Yeah.
So, so all of that isfrustrating.
Now, we do have like I feel likeAnnie has more agency in the
film.
There's a scene we see betweenAnnie and Chris where they're
arguing about Ian and hisschool, and she's saying to him,
like, how fucked up is it thatour kid thinks he is he's
(26:17):
disappointing you?
And like we and and that thatmoment where he says, Thank you
for our fights.
Like there is this sense of,there's a a clearer sense of
equality.
Annie's played by IsabelSkorina, Ski, I'm not sure if
I'm pronouncing her name right,who is just a stone called fox.
And that's not to say that RobinWilliams isn't a handsome man,
(26:37):
but I think he was older thanher.
And there's a definitely whenthey meet, there's a sense of
like, man, this woman's pretty.
So it gets into this kind ofickiness, which I also feel like
by explicitly describing them assoulmates where it's insta-love,
(26:57):
that just hits wrong because itfeels like it removes the
agency.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
Yeah.
I mean, I think the notion ofsoulmates does remove agency.
SPEAKER_01 (27:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
It also like makes the stakes super high.
Right?
Like if if shit doesn't workout, like they almost got
divorced because things were sohard, and yet they're soulmates.
SPEAKER_01 (27:19):
Like, yeah, if you can't make it work with your
soulmate, like well, I mean, tobe fair, it's very difficult for
a married couple to survive theloss of a child, let alone No,
that's not what I'm suggesting.
SPEAKER_00 (27:31):
Yeah.
But like I'm saying when you putthe pressure of like God and the
universe wanted you to betogether, and that like that's
and especially because at leastthe way I understand it, like
that's it.
One and done.
Like, there isn't, there aren'tlike you don't have multiple
soul mates out there, yeah,right.
In most of these understandings,they think it's like one soul
(27:52):
that got split in two.
Yeah.
So when you layer that kind ofunderstanding of your romantic
partner on top of how hard itis, like relationships are hard.
They take hard, they take work,you know?
Yeah, yeah.
It just feels like unfairpressure, is is what I'm getting
at.
Yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
And I also it also feels like it doesn't give us
the opportunity, us meremortals, the opportunity to have
a meaningful connection.
Because part of what we how weknow they're soulmates is she
paints something after he's diedthat he can see in heaven.
And like I would love in thiscosmology to believe that
(28:34):
someone I'm connected to wouldbe able to reach me through that
veil, you know, even if we'renot soulmates.
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Right.
Yeah.
I sometimes will talk aboutlike, I think this metaphor must
have come from literaturesomewhere, but like the idea of
like the red thread betweensternums.
Like I think we stitch thosewith our shared experience with
people.
Like we build that connection.
It's not like zapped there byGod.
(29:03):
Like we do that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:05):
Yeah.
And so that to me, like that,that's the other aspect of it,
is like soulmates means thatthey didn't have to do anything
for it.
And that's not true.
We see that they built, theyworked hard.
Yeah.
They worked really hard to beable to do that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:19):
To thank her for the fights makes proof of that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
Yeah.
And then the fact that at theend, the way that he solves
their crisis is to join her inher suffering, which is part of
the reason why I like thismovie, is like that is beautiful
to me.
That like when there is nosolution, when all there is is
pain, you can be there with theperson you love in their pain.
(29:44):
That's gorgeous.
That is gorgeous and likelife-affirming and meaningful.
And he calls himself, he waslike, I was a coward in life
because he didn't join her inher pain.
And to be fair, I don't know howhe could have.
Like after the children died?
After the children died.
She says, Why are you not inhere with me?
And like someone had to pay thebills, you know, someone had to
(30:08):
keep going.
And he says, I was a coward.
And, you know, never giving upwas the easy way for me.
You know, getting up and puttingmy shoes on and going to work
and paying the bills was easy.
But there were other ways hecould have joined her in her
pain that she he didn't.
Right.
And he recognizes that.
That's why I think this moviestuck with me for years, even
(30:32):
though I also have very complexfeelings about it.
And to that end, let's I let'sgo to that moment with his
daughter.
So when I saw this movie, so itcame out in '98.
I was about 19 when it came out.
I'm not sure that's when I sawit, but around then, I
identified with Marie.
As the daughter, I have alwayshad this sense, be careful, your
(30:53):
parents don't know whatthrowaway line they say is going
to stick with you.
And because of that, and becauseof like this moment in this
movie, I have tried very hard tobe cognizant of what throwaway
lines I say in front of my kidsthat might stick with them.
Can't always know.
Because you can never know,frankly.
(31:15):
Never know.
But I try, try not to have, if Irealize that I've said something
that is not something I want mykids to hold on to, I try to go
back and readdress it.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
So that whole thing about the like Asian women isn't
is new to the movie because inthe book, the I honestly cannot
recall.
SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
Okay.
I cannot recall if they took ona different I I have no memory
of that whatsoever in the book.
Okay.
So because I think I definitelyin 1998, and again in like 2001
when I read the book, or 2002, Idefinitely did not have the same
kind of understanding of racismand microaggressions that I do
(31:57):
now.
So at the time it was like, oh,I can see where a little girl
would internalize that.
I didn't would not have noticedit in the book.
But are his children in thebook?
Yes.
Oh gosh.
Oh, right, right, right.
It wouldn't have been in thebook because the children,
children didn't die.
Right.
That's why I'm asking.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's why I was assuming it wasnew to the movie.
Because the children live.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the whole thing with themchanging form and stuff,
presumably.
SPEAKER_01 (32:26):
Yeah.
I think Albert was probably inthe book, but good point.
Yeah.
I was thinking about RosalindChow, who plays Leona.
Mm-hmm.
And what it would have felt liketo take that part.
It's gross.
I was also thinking about likeCuba Gooding Jr., who has like
(32:46):
he's he is the second billingafter Robin Williams.
He's got a like a significantpart of this movie.
And in 1998, it would have beenprogressive for Robin Williams's
character mentoring if he's beena black man.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
But then the real Albert took the form of Max von
Sitau.
Right.
Right.
And it like just race is a mess.
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
Yeah.
Especially because there's asense that like you think it and
it happens.
So then if we extrapolate theimplication is that Albert like
thinks of himself as a Germandude, a white German dude.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (33:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:35):
It's kind of weird.
Let's while we're staying onthis, like, you think it and it
happens.
Can we talk about like moreabout the nature of the
afterlife and the cosmology ofit and and sort of where you
landed with that?
SPEAKER_01 (33:47):
There's never really any true explanation of like how
it is that you continue to existafter death.
You know, there's theconversation between Albertslash
Ian and Chris where, you know,like, are you are your arm or
your leg?
You know, if you lose those,you're still you.
Your brain is just meat, meatrots, but you're still you.
(34:10):
And what I I liked about theidea of heaven and how it's
different from like heaven inlike the good place is that it
doesn't require likeinfrastructure from the outside.
Like in the good place, heavendidn't work because people got
bored.
Right.
Whereas here, heaven is what youcreate with your own mind.
(34:35):
And so it's there until it's notanymore.
Like basically, that to me fixesthat issue.
Like heaven, you like you can'tget bored because it's what you
create.
And time doesn't mean anything.
And I really appreciate that.
It's this sense of like you arecreating what is meaningful to
(34:58):
you and joyful for you.
It doesn't require maintenancein the way that like heaven in
the good place does.
And then that also to me tellsme that there is a point at
which it ceases to be becausewhatever you are ceases to be.
And that's fine too.
(35:19):
You know, it's a view of heaventhat I feel like is is kind of
organic in a way that works forme.
And then the other thing that Iliked is that when Albert has to
work, Chris says to Leona, like,there's work here, I like that.
And she says, Yes, if you chooseto.
I work with animals.
Albert works with with soulsthat have trouble getting here.
(35:43):
He helps them, helps themtraverse here.
And so it's very idiosyncratic.
And I read there have been acouple of Christian commentators
who talk about this film.
One was saying that in a kind ofa negative way, that it's a very
American view of the afterlife.
Okay, yeah, fair.
I think that that's a that's afair way of uh viewpoint because
(36:03):
it is very individual andidiosyncratic.
Marie's afterlife looks like theartwork in her room.
But I think that is also whatmakes it meaningful because it's
what's meaningful to theindividual and it's what's
joyful for the individual.
SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
Let's talk about the artwork component then, right?
So, like the actual like visualarts from life becomes an
important player in afterlife,which you and I both have a lot
of art in our homes.
Like I can imagine some of thepaintings in my place, but not
everybody does.
Like, I don't know how how doesthe it's like an interesting
(36:40):
take, but then when Iextrapolate it out, what does
that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
When they go to find the tracker, he's in this giant
like canal area that is linedwith libraries' books.
So different parts havedifferent things based on what's
important to different people,presumably.
Huh.
Okay.
And nothing's ever entirelyexplained.
(37:09):
Presumably, if you can think it,it becomes, and it can become
for other people if they'rewilling to, you know, share the
thought with you.
They make a comment at one pointthat art is is so important to
Chris.
That's part of it and wouldexplain why that is what's going
on with all the members of hisfamily.
And you know, would help explainwhy he experiences hell as like
(37:32):
a herous Bosch painting.
SPEAKER_00 (37:35):
Yeah, let's talk about hell and and mental
health, right?
So we've got Annie in a form ofhell, which is like a nightmare
version of the real world.
Yeah.
And she doesn't recognize Chrisat first.
She doesn't recognize him at alluntil he has joined her in her
suffering.
Oh, so as an outsider, she doesnot recognize him.
(37:59):
Hmm.
Misery loves company.
Literally.
Yeah, exactly.
Huh.
That feels kind of dangerous,honestly.
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
Yeah, I um in Roger Ebert's contemporaneous review,
he he said that he loved themovie until the end.
He felt like the end, like itwas building towards something
and didn't get there.
SPEAKER_00 (38:23):
And yeah, I mean, if a person is drowning, like
drowning with them doesn't feellike the solution.
And so the implication that thedrowning person can't even
recognize who you are until youget in and start drowning with
them.
I mean, I heard what you said,and I don't disagree about kind
of the idea of like sitting inthe hole with the person just to
(38:48):
be present and witness.
But there's a difference betweenbeing present and witnessing and
like actually drowning withthem.
SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
Hence my complex feelings about this film.
SPEAKER_00 (38:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, I see why.
SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
And what they say about hell is like it's the
people who don't know thatthey're dead.
SPEAKER_00 (39:07):
But that still doesn't like the complaint, it
remains.
Like she doesn't know she's deadand she doesn't recognize the
man whose death was part of whatcaused her to give up on living.
I don't know.
That like even sort of his I wasa coward, I hear that.
I ran from my feelings.
(39:28):
That's what I hear, right?
I ran from the grief rather thanfeeling it.
And still, like, I don't know.
Like, it doesn't sound like thekind of thing the way it's
described is like he has to stayand go mad with her, is not the
kind of like, you're shoulderinga heavy burden, let me help you
carry it.
(39:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
At the same time, I would have a hard time
understanding how if she's goingto be there forever, how he
could turn around and go back toheaven.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
Agreed.
But I feel like our critiquehere is not with his choices,
but with the cosmology.
Sure.
Like he was the cosmology as thefilmmakers and I presumably
Matheson understood it, likemade this the only choice that
the viewer would accept.
But like Newsflash, we don'tactually know what happens.
(40:23):
Like we could have written itdifferently.
Yeah.
Could have could have written itdifferently.
I don't know.
Yeah.
And like, especially becauselike the extrapolation for
mental health and like how heshould have, I'm putting quotes
around the word should when hewas still alive in those four
years between when the childrendied and when he died, in his
(40:44):
naming his cowardice.
Like, I'm not sure what we'remeant to extrapolate.
I mean, in terms of how heshould have, I'm putting quotes
again around that word, behavedand you know, worked through her
mental health issues.
It sounds like we did see him,like sh she was getting support
from professionals in the in thefacility.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
And uh well, and and that's part of it too, is like
there is no guidebook.
There's there's no like stereoinstructions that tell you what
you how you know what to do tohave how to help.
And he's going through it too.
SPEAKER_00 (41:20):
Right.
They were right.
His kids are also dead.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yeah.
So this is a very, very heavyfilm in a lot of ways, even as
it's also a very joyful film ina lot of ways.
So, like I really appreciatedthat he stays with her at the
end because he's he what he saysis I'm giving up because
throughout he says, I don't giveup.
(41:43):
Like that's you know, you keepgoing.
And when he when he goes to thetracker and he says, I'm giving
up, but not in the way that youthink I am.
I'm not giving up on her.
And I appreciated that becauseit was there is something about
that about the like he does itafter he's dead.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (42:03):
When it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
They're not no stakes.
I mean eternal suffering.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
It's eternal suffering, but it's only his.
It's his eternal suffering.
His kids, it's gonna beupsetting for his kids, but he
has the tracker to go back andtell them like what's going on,
and that he's doing this becausehe doesn't want her to be alone.
Right.
And so there is something soaffirming about that, about that
(42:33):
choice.
I I don't know.
I it just it hits me right inthe feels.
And I don't want that to bebecause they're soulmates.
I want that to be because theybuilt a life together.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Yeah, agreed.
We are running short on time.
So I'm gonna ask you to save anyadditional thoughts for the shit
we forgot to say that we willshare with our patrons as bonus
content.
And I'm gonna see if I can'treflect back to you some of the
things that we talked about.
So, this film, we spent a lot oftime talking about sort of the
(43:05):
misogyny in the Mathesonoriginal and the ways that even
sort of vestiges come through inthis film.
And the way that that manifestsis in essentially removing
agency from Annie to a largeextent.
In the Matheson, it was in likewriting this character who was
just unrealistic, so much sothat like the love, it's it just
(43:30):
reads a self-insert to me thatlike Matheson wanted desperately
for a woman to love him so muchthat were he to die, she
couldn't keep going, regardlessof what uh what else was in her
life.
So we spent a good amount oftime talking about that.
We talked a bit about race andsome of the choices in this
(43:52):
movie that sort of read reallyproblematic today.
In 1998, when it was made, no.
Doubt it was progressive toimagine that a doctor who looked
like Robin Williams's mentor wasa doctor who, at least as a
young man, looked like KubikGetting Jr.
And then that person, that soul,chooses to look like a German
(44:18):
dude whose name I don'tremember.
SPEAKER_01 (44:20):
Max von Sidau.
SPEAKER_00 (44:21):
That guy.
I was gonna say von Helsing, andI knew that was wrong.
It's a different, differentGerman thing.
SPEAKER_01 (44:27):
Does not sex with him.
unknown (44:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
Yeah.
So like that's a weird like theimplications when we extrapolate
are that Cuba Gooding Jr.
like would rather be Von Siddao.
Like, what?
No.
The other piece, like the thelittle girl who sort of comes to
her dad as an Asian woman, thelittle white girl who comes to
(44:53):
her dad as an Asian womanbecause of his offhanded comment
about how much he admired theway Asian women look and move,
which is kind of ugly inRewatch.
Yeah.
We also talked a bit about artand like the idea of art as a
part of the afterlife, thecosmology of the afterlife.
(45:14):
And that's really sort ofinteresting.
Like I asked the question whatabout people for whom art is
just not that important, visualart, and presumably other things
that are important to them wouldshow up in their heaven, like I
don't know, video games.
Yeah.
We talked too about mentalhealth and sort of the idea that
(45:37):
this film makes necessity, thatkind of suffering alongside is
the highest and best response,which this film sets up that
that's the punchline.
That is the only only acceptablepunchline.
And I question whether or notthat is, in fact, the only
acceptable punchline.
(45:57):
Speaking of only acceptable,like the idea of a soulmate,
that there is one true personwith whom you are supposed to
be, is really somewhatproblematic for both of us, I
think, insofar as it removes ouragency as human beings and
removes the significance of thevery hard work it is to build
long-term relationships, whetherthey're romantic or otherwise,
(46:20):
and sort of stitching our cell,our lives together as opposed to
just having, you know, theuniverse kind of zap it
together.
Did I forget anything?
SPEAKER_01 (46:28):
The cosmology of how hell is a place where you don't
know that you're dead and thethe meaning behind that.
I find that very interesting andworthy of thought.
And I do want to nuance the ideathat like suffering with someone
who's suffering, they do make itclear.
(46:49):
Like it is it happens when it'slow stakes, not no stakes, but
low stakes.
So I do want to make that yes.
SPEAKER_00 (46:57):
And he talks about having been a coward when there
were more stakes.
So there is still judgment ofthe earlier time.
Yeah.
So and next week, it's my turn,and I don't remember.
Enemy mine.
Right! I'm gonna bring you mydeep thoughts about enemy mine.
(47:18):
Huh.
Better figure out where I canstream that.
See you next week.
See you next week.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
(47:39):
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompitech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
(48:01):
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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