Special Offer: Get 15% OFF your first FIGS order with code FIGSUK at checkout.
Shop now at https://www.wearfigs.com/
———————————————————————
UK Dentists: Collect your verifiable CPD for this episode here >>> https://courses.dentistswhoinvest.com/smart-money-members-club
———————————————————————
A Friday afternoon phone call. An unannounced CQC inspection. A notice of decision to close that meant it would be illegal to treat patients. Ahmed Giaziri went from running his first practice to facing every principal’s nightmare, and the way he rebuilt afterwards is one of the most practical UK dentistry business stories we’ve heard.
We talk through Ahmed’s route into dentistry, from a strict upbringing in London and a near-miss with medicine to studying at Trinity College Dublin, then working as an associate in Australia before returning to the UK. He explains why he bought his first private practice in 2013, what he got wrong about management and compliance, and how a malicious complaint escalated into a CQC shutdown scenario during renovations. We also unpack how Denplan supported the turnaround, and what that taught him about systems, cash reserves, and leadership.
From there, we get into the mechanics of scaling: why a simple NHS and plan model can still be highly profitable, what he looks for in repeat income, and how he uses marketing to grow private dentistry on top. Ahmed shares how goodwill lending works in UK dental practice finance, why banks back dentistry differently to other sectors, and how he thinks about buying the freehold and separating property into a limited company for longer-term passive income. We finish with delegation, ops structure, mentoring associates to improve retention, and the honest question of how sustainable growth feels when you’re still in clinic.
———————————————————————
Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. Investment figures quoted refer to simulated past performance and that past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results/performance.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr James (02:31):
Also includes money, including comments, principle,
as well as understandinglisting, all this content
comments as verifiable CPD, andyou can download your
certificate on these listing.
Any discount, we also include awalking 10% discount on your
demand date, 75% discount on labbills for demon principles,
(02:55):
amongst other parks anddiscounts for members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
verifiable CPD for this episode.
Ahmed, I've always had troublepronouncing your last name.
Is it Giaziri?
Giaziri.
Dr Ahmed (03:12):
Yeah, you're right.
First time, Giaziri.
Dr James (03:14):
Giaziri, Giaziri, hey, okay.
I should have just stuck withthat.
I should have stuck to my gunswith Giazeri.
There we go.
Ahmed, how are you today?
Dr Ahmed (03:20):
Very good.
How are you, James?
Dr James (03:21):
I'm amazing, man.
I'm full of beans.
I'm really excited for thispodcast.
Ahmed, you're you're you'reyou're you're out and about on
Facebook, so you might have afew uh people who recognize you
in the audience on this podcasttoday.
Maybe so.
But for those that don't, if wehad a little bit of a bio and
an introduction, I think thatmight be a nice place to begin.
Dr Ahmed (03:43):
Yeah.
Um parents are Libyan.
Um, they came to England in the80s.
Um, I grew up in London.
Um never really knew what Iwanted to do in life.
Um had a quite a strictupbringing.
The highlight of my my life asa kid was watching Match of the
(04:05):
Day on a Saturday.
And um, before Match of theDay, a lot of your older kind of
um group members know thatcasualty was on before match of
the day.
And so when teachers asked mewhat I wanted to do um uh when I
left school, realized I wasn'tgonna make it as a professional
(04:26):
footballer, so I said I wantedto be a paramedic.
Um I was getting quite goodgrades, so they said, why don't
you just do medicine?
And I said, Okay, I'll domedicine.
Um didn't get into medicine, uhand it still annoys me too
today.
Uh and um the advice I wasgiven was don't even put
(04:49):
dentistry as a second choice inmy UCAS form because it might
show people I'm not fullycommitted to medicine.
And so I didn't even get intodentistry in England, and I my
dad's secretary, she was Irish,and she said, Why don't you
apply in the Republic ofIreland?
(05:09):
Um, so I applied for medicineand dentistry in Ireland and got
an offer for dentistry inTrinity College in Dublin.
Dr James (05:19):
Oh wow, no less, man.
That's uh that's uh prettyprestigious, right?
In Ireland.
Dr Ahmed (05:25):
Yeah, I I had no clue about Ireland or Trinity because
uh I I started doing dentistryreluctant, reluctantly, and
doing Trinity went to Trinity,and um yeah, I used to go out in
uh bars and clubs, and peopleasked me, you know, where do I
study say Trinity?
And they're all like you know,going, Wow, you posh so and so,
(05:50):
and then just walk off likethis.
And I didn't realize how what aprestigious university it was.
I didn't realize it was seen asthe Oxbridge of Ireland, but
yeah, I I really didn'tappreciate how lucky I was, and
I was just kind of there, just alittle bit down in the dumps
that I wasn't doing medicine,and um yeah, it's it's kind of
been kind of the story of mylife.
(06:10):
I just kind of accidentally gotinto uh practices and business
um without having a strategy,and you know, I I do admire
people who are ambitious andhave a strategy, but my
motivation seems to be um I kindof find myself in situations a
(06:33):
little bit over my head, and ifI just work hard just to make
the best of a situation that Ifound myself in.
Dr James (06:44):
And it's not a bad strategy because you do do a lot
of growing when you do that toyourself and you bite off just a
little bit more than you canchew, right?
Dr Ahmed (06:52):
Yeah, I I think so.
I mean, I think there arepeople who just are naturally
motivated, they get up at fivein the morning and you know,
they really attack life.
Um I I just find myself infortunate situations, um able to
invest or you know, do do adifficult course, and I just
(07:15):
motivate myself to to just beable to complete um the course
or try and uh complete anyproblem that you know I find
myself in.
Um I've always found that Iused to be the worst of the best
in school or university.
(07:37):
They always always put me inthe top set in maths or science,
and I used to be surrounded bygeniuses who found it very easy,
and it was always my kind ofambition just to stay with those
guys, and that's where my workethic came.
Dr James (07:55):
Hey man, I mean, like I said, there's no, you know
what, it's interesting becausethose sorts of circumstances can
do that to you, and what I'vealways found is that if you do
find something unbelievablyeasy, well, it can make you one
of the things, one of theresults of that is it can make
you complacent, which isgenerally speaking, a trait
(08:15):
which is not that conducive topushing and being successful in
life in the long run.
So actually, maybe there weresome valuable lessons in there,
which it sounds like there were.
And of course, you're the brainpower.
You were up there like punchingwith the big boys, you know
what I mean.
But you actually came out witha really cool work ethic as
well, which is amazing.
And that, of course, has led towhat you've since achieved
(08:36):
whenever you left university,acquiring zero well, your first
practice going from zeropractices to one practice to
nine practices, which is really,really, really flipping cool.
And there's gonna be a lot ofwisdom in your head with regards
to that journey that can onlyever be learned through directly
experiencing that, and that'swhy the listener is gonna
(08:56):
benefit an absolute ton todayfrom this stuff.
So, listen, thank you forsharing your story.
And then you told me off camerabefore we jumped on, got your
first practice relatively lateat 32.
Dr Ahmed (09:07):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, I I I worked, I cameback to London after graduation,
um, worked two years, a new NHScontract came in in 2006.
I didn't get a good offer, so Iwent traveling with a friend,
worked in Australia for a fewyears, and to be honest, I was
(09:28):
loving life in Australia um asan associate.
Um, had no ambition to own apractice.
Um, the weather was good, themoney was good.
Uh at 5 p.m., you just wantedto go out to the beach or meet
friends.
Um so yeah, I think ambitionfor me is almost weather
(09:51):
dependent.
Um when I'm living in a in anice climate, I don't really
want to work hard.
But around 2012-13, um, youknow, my father and other family
were trying to trying toemotionally trying to drag me
back to the UK.
And I, you know, I did I didrelent and came back.
(10:13):
Um my father's quite asuccessful businessman himself.
Um Libya is an oil-richcountry, and you know, he he he
was involved in working for oilcompanies, um, selling to Shell
BP.
But he he helped me with thedeposit of my first practice.
(10:34):
So I do appreciate I was veryvery fortunate um in that I had
that family help.
Um, but he convinced me to comeback.
And 2013 there wasn't manyprivate jobs for associates, so
I did buy a private practicebecause, in effect, I had to buy
(10:56):
myself a private job and umyeah, just saw a practice, big
plan list.
Um and I did like the idea ofhaving a secure monthly income
from uh from a den planpractice.
And at that stage, I I had myimplant MSc.
(11:17):
Um, I thought I could add tothis practice, uh, started
teaching myself orthodontics,just taught myself everything
that the practice wasn't reallydoing much of, uh, with the
security that it was actuallyvery profitable from day one.
So even if I couldn't add toit, I I should be okay.
And then the I was enjoyinglife actually running one
(11:42):
practice.
I was very naive.
Um, I think you know theseFacebook groups like like your
group, James, they weren'treally there back in 2013.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing, and um, and um one
malicious complaint um led to aCQC inspection in 2015, which I
(12:04):
failed.
And um I was actually onholiday when the inspection
happened, it was an unannounceduh inspection, and um got a text
message from my receptionist.
We didn't have a practicemanager.
That was uh another example ofmy naivety, um, saying the CQC
have just been in, and I was inTenerife at the time.
(12:25):
Uh and I was like, uh, whathappened?
She goes, I'll tell you whenyou come back, and I was just
like that usually means it'sbad.
Dr James (12:35):
The news never waits until you come back, the only
ever bad news, anyway.
Dr Ahmed (12:39):
I know, so I I flew back to Gatwick on Friday, like
at midday, and uh sure enough,the CQC inspector rang me as
soon as I landed and said, Um,could we meet you at your
practice at 4 p.m.?
Um and I was like, Yeah, yeah,no problem.
(13:00):
She goes, I recommend youcancel any patients after 4 p.m.
So I had associates workingthere at the time.
I was like, Why cancel patientsafter 4 pm?
She goes, We're gonna give youa notice of decision to close.
And then she's she said, Um,after you've been physically
handed that notice of decision,uh, it is illegal for you to see
(13:22):
any patients.
It was such a formal, formaland cold phone call that uh I
was really panicking.
And I don't know if it's a goodwhenever is a good time to have
your practice closed, but Iguarantee you four o'clock on a
Friday is not a great timebecause everyone is is shut.
(13:46):
Um the BDA um helpline is kindof shuts at five.
I tried to bring the lawyerthat helped me acquire the
practice.
Um to be fair, she answered,but she didn't know she's never
come across this.
Um, but basically, it was amalicious complaint.
Um, someone was uh trying tocommit insurance fraud.
(14:10):
He had a lot of decay in hismouth.
Um, he said he walked into adoor.
I don't know why I didn't evenpick up the red flag and wanted
to me to fill out the insuranceform saying that his all his
decayed teeth were broken fromwalking into a door.
Um when I kind of refused, hehe threatened to go to the GDC,
(14:30):
which he did, saying that I hurthim and I was using dirty
instruments.
Now, the GDC, to be fair, threwout the claim, but because he
just mentioned dirtyinstruments, they are legally
obliged to then notify the CQC.
And the CQC did an unannouncedinspection whilst I was
renovating the practice, andthat's why I was on holiday
(14:51):
because there was builders goingto be in.
And you know, the builders westill had we still had the
practice running, but thebuilders were a bit messy, and
the CQC came in and said, youknow, this is not safe, and um,
because I had no manager, weweren't doing the right audits,
we weren't well led, which theywere correct about, but I think
(15:12):
it could have been handled a bitmore kind of you know
diplomatically and you know lessless severe than then closing
the practice, and um yeah, I itwas a big den plan practice, and
I I spoke to the ex-principaland he said just ring ring den
plan, and literally Den Planarrived there and then, like
(15:36):
they rang me that evening, andthey literally just took the
keys of my practice off me andsaid, Um, we're going to run it
for the next three weeks, we'regonna negotiate with the CQC,
our inspectors are gonna come inand um inspect your practice,
we're gonna train your staff.
Dr James (15:55):
They were doing press releases for me, their PR team
were just sending um what isthat even a thing that this that
that can they can do that?
Dr Ahmed (16:05):
I didn't I didn't even know about it, but they just
saw how how naive and and andclueless I was.
Um, because the CQC closed mypractice at four, and then at
half four, we have a very smallNHS uh contract.
Half four, NHS England calledme saying um they already knew
(16:26):
this was happening.
The CQC tipped them off.
They said, We've heard yourpractice is being closed.
Um we've written to your allyour NHS patients, we've got
registered with us, but just incase there's one or two people
we don't have the correctaddress details for, we think
it's best we just do a pressrelease to the local radio
(16:47):
station and the local newspaper.
And I was like, is that is thatreally necessary?
Do we really need to publicizethis?
And you know, I I I was inshock, like, and I was like,
it's probably one of the fewtimes I was kind of had tears in
my eyes.
Like, and then um, yeah, Icalled them plan.
They said, listen, don't don'tworry about it, you know, we
(17:08):
we'll know what to do.
Our P PR team will take care ofit.
And but yeah, that that was abig, big lesson learned.
Dr James (17:17):
Oh my goodness, wow.
Well, listen, thank you forbeing so candid, Sharon.
That that is wow, fascinating.
There we are.
Dr Ahmed (17:26):
And it was a scary moment because um I was
renovating the practice, so Iput all my money into the
renovations, and um they CQCsaid we'll re-inspect you in
four weeks, and I said, I Idon't have the cash reserves to
be closed for four weeks, and sothe them plan negotiated they
(17:46):
come back after literally about14 days, and to be fair to them
plan, I mean I don't want toplug them plan here, but they
did really help me.
But they even lent me moneyjust to just to keep me going
until the reinspection.
Um, so yeah, you you kind ofknow who your friends are in in
these situations.
Dr James (18:07):
Wow, okay.
Well, I mean, that is aflipping crazy story.
And listen, as I say, thank youfor sharing.
I didn't I didn't know Denplanhave a contingency plan for
these sorts of things.
So obviously they do.
Obviously, this sort of stuffhappens, and they've got a
protocol in place, which is whatyou benefited from on that
occasion.
So that was your firstpractice, and you bought your
(18:29):
first practice in 2013.
Dr Ahmed (18:31):
2013, yeah.
Dr James (18:32):
2013, and that was the same year, that story.
Dr Ahmed (18:36):
So they this inspection happened just over a
year of owning it.
So I bought it October 2013.
The inspection happened inJanuary 2015.
So, yeah, just about 14-15months into practice ownership.
Um the the previous principaldidn't have a manager.
I thought I could run itwithout a manager, and you know,
(18:57):
and you know, I learned a very,very tough lesson that you
really need someone managing thepractice for you if you're
going to be full-time clinical,which I was.
Dr James (19:08):
There we are.
Okay, cool.
So basically, bought the firstpractice, all of this kicked
off.
We're just at the point, thisis almost like, wow, where do we
go from here?
The only way is up effectively.
Practice reopened, andpresumably things picked up and
things started to tick along andrun a little bit more smoothly.
(19:29):
How did you get your hungerback for dentistry and being a
principal at that stage to go onand buy it more practices?
Dr Ahmed (19:39):
I mean, again, it it's a constant theme in my life,
and you know, serendipity had alot to do with it.
Um when you buy a practice,your your email address is still
registered with the dentalagents.
And I I got a listing of apractice in Preston in 2016, um
(20:04):
which was really, reallyprofitable.
And um it was an NHS practice,and you know, it had my eyes uh
uh opened up a bit, and I waslike, you know, how how can a
NHS practice be this profitable?
And it did have a big um planlist as well, but it it was all
(20:26):
up and it was four hours away inPreston, and I just thought I
listen, I just want to go visitit just to see really how they
how they do it more thananything.
Um so yeah, one Saturdaymorning I drove up four hours to
Preston, and Preston is where Idid my implant MSc, so it
wasn't unknown to me.
And um, I turned up and it wasa very basic practice.
(20:51):
They they they had no website,um they had um no computers, it
was all pen and paper.
And this is 2016, so it's notnot decades ago.
Um, they did no marketing, theydid no um cosmetic dentistry,
they did no implants, um, noorthodontics, really, you know,
(21:16):
about 50% profit margin, uh,principal-led practice, um,
doing none of the you know, sexydentistry.
And they were making more thanmy private practice, and we we
had similar turnovers, you know,approaching a million.
And it kind of annoyed me, theywere making more money than me
um doing NHS and and plan.
(21:38):
And it it was almost out ofanger that I I wanted to buy it
because they were just they weremore successful than me.
I said, like, you know, I'vegot to have this practice, and I
I wasn't even thinking abouthow am I gonna run it, it was
the other side of the country,and yeah, I think in the back of
the mind looking back, therewas a bit of you know, if the
(22:00):
CQC closed a practice again, itwould be good if I had a second
income because you know I I hadalmost zero money when they
closed my first practice.
I mean, I didn't I didn't, yes,I've got family to fall back
on, but I I realized that youprobably do need a second income
in dentistry.
There's so many threats outthere.
(22:21):
Um, not only the GDC, um,you've got HMRC to worry about.
Um, you know, um there's a lotof blue and blue reporting, um,
there's a lot of litigation.
You know, your your back can goin dentistry, some some illness
can happen.
I realized early on you you doprobably need to think about a
(22:44):
second income in dentistrybecause of there are a lot of
threats to to you and yourcareer.
So there was that in the backof my mind, maybe I do need a
second source of income.
So I I offered full askingprice for this practice, was
rejected because you know I wasseen as an investor at that
stage.
Um, and then I forgot about it,and then the people that were
(23:08):
buying and practice, theirfinance fell through.
Um, so the owners came back tome and said, Are you still
interested?
And yeah, I I bought it October2016.
Again, they didn't have youknow a manager, so you know, I I
had to then interview a managerto run it for me.
Um the associates were quitequite further on in their
(23:35):
careers.
Um, the principal's wife, shewas a dentist, she retired,
another uh Associate, he wasprobably in his late 50s.
He was quite annoyed that Ibought the practice, um, having
a young new owner, and he saidto me, Um, give me a uh I I'm
(23:56):
I'm partly responsible for a lotof the goodwill of this
practice.
If you want me to stay, I want140,000 pounds, 70,000 for the
first year, 70,000 in my secondyear, or I'm walking.
So I just told him you canwalk, and so he just left.
And uh a third associate, sheshe retired.
(24:17):
Literally, so three dentistsretired within two months of me
buying a practice, so it wasquite full on in that first
couple of months.
I suddenly had to find threeassociates uh and a manager.
Um, but yeah, I I was quitelucky.
Um, I kept the print, the oneprincipal stayed on, the husband
(24:37):
stayed on, and he helped merecruit.
Um, I didn't know Preston, butword of mouth, he he kind of
said, you know, we'll we'll findyou some associates.
Dr James (24:47):
Wow, what a story.
So that was let me do some mathin my head.
Got your first practice at 32,20, and that was in 2012, right?
Is what you said.
Dr Ahmed (24:56):
2013.
Dr James (24:57):
2013, sorry, and then second practice 2016.
So you were 30, you were 32,first practice 35-ish.
Dr Ahmed (25:05):
Yeah.
So and yeah, again, it it'salmost like my kind of plan in
life um is being purelyaccidental.
I mean, I I wanted to be adoctor in the first place, but I
then found I had a secondpractice, which you know I
didn't really need, if I if I'mhonest.
(25:27):
I I was you know quite happy myincome with one practice.
Um, so in 2016, I I had incomefrom a second practice, which
was just kind of building up.
I didn't really need um, youknow, timing is everything.
I mean, interest rates were youknow 0% back then, and um I
wasn't really uh looking toinvest in more practices, but I
(25:50):
was speaking to a friend inworked in banking, and he was
quite amazed at the low interestrates banks were offering uh
dentists and dental practiceowners, even for goodwill
lending.
I mean, goodwill is uh is is anon-tangible asset, it's an
asset you can't touch.
(26:12):
But banks know that uh evenwhen a dental practice changes
hands, usually the clients stillgo to that same practice
because they associate um a lotof familiarity with the building
of the practice, uh theassociate dentists, they know
the receptionists, they know themanagers, they know the nurses.
(26:34):
So even when a practice changeshands, they calculate the
patient attrition is usuallyless than five percent.
So banks do lend quite a lot ofmoney on goodwill, and I didn't
really appreciate that in otherindustries um this is not
always the case.
And you know, when interestrates are below inflation, um
(27:01):
you are technically borrowingfree money, which I I I didn't
really fully appreciate at thetime.
Dr James (27:10):
By the way, I'm still here.
Yeah, I tried not to distractyou.
I'm back, I'm back.
There we are.
So yeah, uh that would thatthat's something unique to
dentistry that maybe us dentistsdon't always appreciate as much
as we should.
(27:30):
UK Dennists, Dennis Who Investnow has an official platform
where you can learn aboutfinance and obtain UK compliant,
verifiable TVD at the sametime.
The only platform that existson which you can do both.
The Smart Money Members Clubhas hundreds of hours of mini
courses, webinar series, andlive day recordings on all
things finance slash taxefficiency for UK dentists.
(27:53):
This includes complete courseson how tax works for UK
dentists, finance so that youcan invest and grow your own
money, business so you canimprove your profitability as an
associate or principal, and forthose out there that want it,
there's also a mini course andhow you can responsibly enter
the crypto space using measuredamounts of capital.
(28:13):
I've gathered this content fromthe best of the best I could
find in each respective area sothat you know that this is how
people at the forefront of eachfield advise their clients.
The Smart Money Members Clubalso contains discounts on
common things that UK dentistsneed to pay for on a regular
basis.
This includes a whopping 10%discount on dental indemnity,
(28:34):
the offer to beat your incomeprotection deal no matter what
you're paying, and for theprincipals out there, 5%
discount on lab bills and 10%discount on practice insurance.
These are designed to offerhundreds, if not thousands, in
annual savings.
The purpose of this membersclub is to not only boost your
monthly income but also manageyour outgoings as much as
possible and therefore createmore profit.
(28:55):
To celebrate the launch of theSmart Money Members Club, and
given that the CPD deadline iscoming up soon, I've decided to
offer the first month of thisplatform entirely for free.
This offer will end in thecoming weeks as soon as the
current CPD cycle is up.
To collect your CPD for thispodcast episode using the Smart
Money Members Club, feel free touse the link in the description
(29:17):
of this podcast.
Dr Ahmed (29:21):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, I I'm not I mean, I'mI'm quite risk-averse, I'm
quite, you know, conservative.
I'm not really into borrowinglots of money, but you know,
when when friends in bankingwere saying, you know, interest
you're borrowing at two and ahalf percent.
Um inflation at that time wastwo and a half, three percent.
They were just saying, listen,you're borrowing free money.
(29:44):
Um, so you you'd be stupid notto take it.
But you know, my money wasaccruing in the second practice,
and uh yeah, I I the only thingI really knew was was um
dentistry and property.
I did have a clean, keeninterest in property.
Um and when I was going onproperty forums, there was a lot
(30:10):
of kind of people using riskystrategies to buy buildings with
zero deposit.
And banks were actuallyoffering us zero deposit on the
buildings as long as thepractice was profitable.
So I was actually kind ofrealized how lucky I was.
I was actually not only buyinga practice, I was buying a
(30:31):
building as an asset as wellwith zero deposit.
So what I started doing was Istarted putting the buildings in
a separate limited company, andthe practice were going in
another limited company becauseeventually, you know, if I sell
the practice, I'd like I'd liketo keep the the buildings and
live off hopefully more passiveincome than dentistry.
Dr James (30:57):
Yeah, it's a good strategy that and uh uh as well
as that another common thing iswhere people put them in a
pension, I believe, for like aSIP or something along those
lines.
Uh, but even a limited company,I've actually never thought
about that before.
Like, oh, I guess you could putthem in a separate limited
company as well.
So there we go.
Dr Ahmed (31:14):
Yeah, yeah.
No, you you can put them inSIPs, but I I think with 40,000
a year, I know that's increasedrecently.
Um, maximum you can put into aSIP.
That um, yeah, if you buy abuilding for five or two hundred
thousand, you have to use fiveyears worth of pension allowance
to put it into a SIP.
(31:34):
So, you know, that would haveslowed me down a bit.
But yeah, there's there's a lotof strategies, and yeah, do
speak to accountants andfinancial advisors.
Um, I'm starting to do that nowand reverse engineer my
strategy.
But, you know, if I was Fordthinking, uh I would have
probably you know had the SIPfrom day one.
Dr James (31:52):
Well, do you know what that actually uh brings me on
to something that I'd like toask in a little bit uh further
on uh down this podcast, uh youknow, uh during the proceedings
of this podcast, and that iswhat are the biggest lessons
that you learned or things thatyou would do differently,
because that stuff is gold dust,especially for people who are
going on a similar journey foruh a similar journey to
(32:13):
yourself.
But just before we do that, soyou've just given us a really
good understanding of thejourney, so to speak, as to your
first practice, secondpractice, and how things
continued from then.
And if you just bring us rightup to this present day, how
things look, nine praxis the waythings are right now, and if
(32:33):
you look back on what you'vedone and the you know everything
that you've achieved, are youhappy?
Do you want more?
Is there ever a stop button, orhow does that how does it feel?
How does it feel for you?
Dr Ahmed (32:47):
Yeah, I mean, it I mean, I I I don't know whether I
was driven by ego or or youknow, I or I I really had that
deep ambition to to grow a microcorporate, but it it did grow
organically.
I was you know, moneyaccumulated in in the practice
(33:10):
accounts.
I I didn't know much about youknow stocks and shares.
Um, you know, I only reallyjoined your group after COVID.
Um I knew a little bit aboutproperty, but I was acquiring
property alongside my practices.
So I just decided that youknow, once the funds built up,
I'd look to add maybe onepractice a year, and that's
(33:34):
essentially what I did andfocused on marketing.
I mean, I I did have a kind ofvery um straightforward strategy
when I bought a practice.
I did like practices withrepeat source of incomes,
whether it is NHS practices witha high UDA value or a big plan
(33:56):
practice.
Um, I like that security of therepeat income, and then you
know, use my marketing team tobuild up on the private income.
And one one practice did growto a size is actually the
Preston one where I needed toopen a second location, and that
was my first squat, and thathappened in 20 2021, 2022.
(34:23):
Um squats are stressful.
Um, I know Bobby appears inyour podcast.
Yeah, and yeah, you know, ifyou're gonna work in the
practice in and you're reallymotivated, it is possible to do
a successful squat.
(34:43):
Um but you know, I remembergoing to a talk uh actually in
Australia about buying apractice or setting up a squat,
and it's useful to look at thepractice income in different
instalments.
So the first hundred thousanduh uh practice generates because
(35:04):
of the high fixed costs, maybeonly five to ten percent of that
is profit, pure profit, andthen the second um tranch, the
hundred thousand to two hundredthousand uh tranche, maybe 20,
10 to 20 percent of that is pureprofit because your fixed costs
more or less stay the same.
(35:24):
And if you build on a turnover,you're just increasing some of
your variable costs, which arenot usually that much.
From two to three hundredthousand, maybe that tranch 20
to 30 percent of it is isprofit.
So when you buy an existingpractice, because your fixed
costs don't really change thatmuch, whatever you add to it
(35:47):
from marketing and privateincome, more a bigger portion of
that is profit than when you'restarting a squat.
And I do admire people who doset up squats um because it does
take a lot of work, and I it'smy personal belief if I do half
the work uh of setting up asquat, I can probably double a
(36:11):
turnover of an existing goodpractice.
Um but I think other lessonsI've learned is just just
obviously having infrastructure.
Um after about four practices,you do need an operations
manager.
Um, luckily, one of my goodmanagers who decided to retire
(36:33):
early, she stayed on as my PAoperations manager.
Um, you you need someone justhelping the managers.
Um, most managers, not all ofthem, are nurses or receptions
that have got promoted.
So they they're probably notvery experienced is uh uh
running a big business.
(36:54):
So it'd be good if you had amanager with not only dental
experience but businessexperience to help them.
And yeah, just just uh thinkabout I think like any
investment, if you put down adeposit, how are you gonna get
that deposit back?
Um how long is it gonna takeyou?
(37:15):
If I if I invest in a practice,if I can get my deposit back in
two, three years, then I know Ican grow further.
Um and the only thing stoppingme growing more is I'm still the
only um director of of all ninepractices, and um you know,
unless you know I really investinto a head office, um, it's
(37:38):
gonna be difficult for me togrow more at this stage.
Dr James (37:42):
And you know what?
That's actually something I'dlove to ask you about.
How do you delegate things evenbefore even even where you are
right now before you get thehead office?
How is it possible to managethose nine dental practices
with, let me see, seven times24, 168 hours in a week?
I'm curious to know about that.
But just before I talk aboutthat, I was just wondering, you
mentioned fixed costs andvariable costs there.
(38:04):
And I feel a lot of dentistsknow fixed costs and variable
costs and that uh, how can wesay nomenclature that account
accountants use, but maybe notas many as they should there,
you know, maybe not as many asthere should be, uh, understand
that stuff.
So I'm just curious how how howuh how um refined does one's
understanding of reading abalance sheet and the numbers
(38:27):
need to be to expand at the ratethat you've expanded at?
Do they just need to basicallybe able to understand uh you
know PL to a basic level, or dothey really need a refined
understanding of how to read abalance sheet, in your opinion?
Dr Ahmed (38:44):
I mean, I don't think you you need a um massive
knowledge about this.
You you you do need to speak toan accountant.
Um and when you're buying apractice um and you've got the
accounts there in black andwhite, it's very easy for you to
know the the fixed costs, thethe rent or um the electricity
(39:09):
costs, the rates, and you know,the variable costs and and the
staff costs.
The variable costs areobviously just your dental
materials and and your labbills.
Um but yeah, it uh it is it isreally useful, and again, it's
easy to do this with an existingpractice to know how many days
(39:32):
the practice is actually open,and then you divide you know the
the fixed costs by the numberof days of trading, so you know
you're running costs per day,and then you can break it down
by how many surgeries you are,so you know how much it costs to
run a surgery in a per day, andif you really wanted to know
(39:55):
how much it runs per hour, thenthat's quite useful to know.
And it's it's very useful toknow to share with the associate
so they know what they need togross just so that the principal
is not losing money.
And you know, when you havethose conversations with your
associates when they haven'tmade that target, and you tell
them it's actually it'd beactually more profitable for me
(40:17):
to have given you 50 pounds andtold you not to turn up today
than you turning up todaybecause what you generated
didn't even cover you know theoverheads, it is a big wake-up
call for some associates.
And I don't think thosediscussions are had enough
between principals andassociates.
Dr James (40:34):
I see.
And listen, that's veryvaluable what you just said,
because I feel like sometimespeople, how can we say, fixate
on understanding the balancesheet to a huge level before
they make progress in theirjourney, whenever it comes to
buying dental practices to hearit from yourself, where it
carries some gravitas and itallows dentists to understand
what truly is necessary.
(40:55):
Let's pull it back to what Iwas saying just a second ago in
terms of delegation.
The question that we discussedbefore we talked about the
numbers thing we mentioned justa second ago.
So I was just curious, wheneverit comes to delegation, I know
that you told me off camerayou're still in clinic three
days a week.
Dr Ahmed (41:12):
Yeah.
Dr James (41:12):
Yeah, fair play to you.
And you know your time outsideof clinic.
How does that look?
Are you constantlyfirefighting, so to speak, or do
you have some time to yourself?
Have you managed to getsomebody in who can run that for
you?
I know you said you had an opsmanager.
How does that look?
Dr Ahmed (41:30):
Yeah, I mean, my my ops manager, she she looks after
the other managers.
Um, I don't have a clinicaldirector, and that that's
probably the next step is tohave someone as a clinical
director.
Um, I will need two because ofthe geographical spread of the
practices, and so yes, I am notfirefighting, but uh you know,
(41:54):
I've got many hats.
I'm doing I'm doing dentistryjust so my knowledge stays
relevant because a lot of my newassociates they need some sort
of mentorship.
Um so yeah, my my work lifebalance is is completely out of
sync.
Um I do take 12 weeks off ayear, which sounds great, but uh
(42:20):
you know, I'm on my laptopliterally every day, even when
I'm in Spain or things likethat.
It's it's a sacrifice I'm I'mwilling to make at the moment
because you know I do hope tokind of retire uh young and
hopefully get that time back,but you know, you can't take
things for granted.
But yeah, I work three days andthen I have two admin days.
(42:44):
Really, ideally, I need to dropone more clinical day and have
three admin days.
Um, mixed in with those admindays, I do like to mentor
dentists where I can just sitwith them as their assistant and
just help them with you knowcertain procedures.
Um that really helps withretention and when you're
(43:06):
recruiting.
If you if you can help you knowyounger dentists, then they do
appreciate that.
Um, you know, there is a lot ofkind of trust issues in
dentistry, but you know, uhpeople you know trying to uh
retain money off associates, um,and then if the associate uh
(43:27):
complains, then it leads to aGDC complaint.
If you if you can be there forassociates and help them and let
them know you know you're ontheir side and share your
experiences not only indentistry and business, because
most of us graduating have havevery little business knowledge,
then they do they do tend tostick around.
So I am fairly happy with myretention and you know, you
(43:49):
know, I've got good associatesworking for me, which has helped
me grow myself.
Dr James (43:54):
Awesome, man.
Thank you for that.
And do you know what?
In your experience and going onthis journey that we talked
about just a second ago, I'mjust curious to know, now from
the vantage point that you'represently sad at, right now,
presently, looking back overthis uh yeah, as I say, this
voyage of going from being a32-year-old, getting your first
(44:15):
practice, CQC, uh doing whatthey did, reopening again, and
then all of a sudden you'reacquiring more and more and more
to get to where you are today.
If you could do anythingdifferently, or if you had some
advice for that 32-year-oldversion of yourself, what might
it be?
Dr Ahmed (44:32):
I you know, I think we're speaking about this off
air.
I kind of bit off more than Ican chew.
Um, and I I think just getadvice of people that have
walked that path before.
Um I do now, you know, I'm in aWhatsApp group of other um
(44:52):
dentists that own multiplesites, and it's good having that
advice um on hand, but Iprobably didn't take enough
advice at the beginning.
Um so and yeah, I kind of bitoff more than I can chew, and
I'll be quite honest withmyself.
(45:14):
I think I know my dad couldprobably help me out financially
if I if I ever got stuck, butnot not everyone has that safety
net.
So yeah, I I was quitefortunate.
But if you are gonna buy morethan one practice, you know,
just reach out to people likemyself or I can put you in touch
with other people who have doneit.
And you know, most of us arehappy to share our experiences.
(45:37):
You know, we you know, we'renot we're not competing with
everyone, we we've all kind ofyou know.
Made our wealth and you knowwe're just you know happy to
share and collaborate with otherpeople.
Dr James (45:49):
You know, that's the thing that is one of the biggest
misconceptions I think thatpeople have about business that
they think that it's reallycutthroat and everybody's out
for themselves.
Actually, 90% of people whohave done well just want to
share what they've learned ontheir journey because that
knowledge is scarce, and theonly real way you can learn how
to do that stuff is to just goand experience it.
There's no book, there's notextbook, there's no YouTube
(46:11):
video, there's no course, so tospeak.
You just have to do it.
And there's a big part, there'sa there's this big sense of
compassion and willingness togive back from people who have
been on that voyage and peoplewho've experienced that stuff,
and they just don't want othersto struggle in the same way that
they did.
So, yeah, very much resonatewith that, and that's something
that I've observed too.
(46:31):
And I feel like a lot of peopleout there don't realize that.
Why would you struggle on yourown when you can just ask?
You get the right person thatcan accelerate your own journey
and they enjoy giving you thatinformation too.
Dr Ahmed (46:41):
Yeah, I mean, 100%.
I mean, there's there's loadsof us out there, you know.
I I don't I'm not selling acourse, I'm not, I'm not, I
don't teach, but you know, if ifyou and I've learned this
through property forums, if youjust say to someone that's
reached where you want to go andsaid, you know, do you mind if
I buy you coffee or buy youdinner just so I can pick your
brain and just be honest aboutit?
(47:03):
Nine times out of ten, theysaid, Yeah, no problem.
Dr James (47:06):
You know, they want the dinner, man, you know, in a
nice restaurant.
Absolutely, it's a win-win.
It's a win-win.
Listen, Ahmed, thank you somuch for sharing your wisdom and
knowledge today.
And let's say somebody did wantto reach out to you off the
back of this podcast.
Where are they best off findingyou?
Out of curiosity.
Dr Ahmed (47:26):
Yeah, so I'm I'm in your group.
Um, I'll I'll message you mydirect email and contact number
anyway.
But you know, just look forAhmed Jazeiri.
There's only one of us, Ibelieve.
Dr James (47:38):
Uh got you, gotcha, gotcha.
Okay, thank you so much, mate.
Well, listen, as I say, thankyou so much for generously
giving up your time because Iknow you're flipping busy for
the benefit of the audience.
Thank you so much for thisamazing podcast today, and I'm
already looking forward to whenwe have you back on again at
some stage to get a catch up uhwith regards to the next leg of
(47:59):
your journey, however thatlooks.
That'll be interesting and funwhenever that occurs.
Amen.
Thank you so much.
We'll see each other very soon.
Thanks, Jen.
Also includes money, including comments, principle,
as well as understandinglisting, all this content
comments as verifiable CPD, andyou can download your
certificate on these listing.
Any discount, we also include awalking 10% discount on your
demand date, 75% discount on labbills for demon principles,
(02:55):
amongst other parks anddiscounts for members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
verifiable CPD for this episode.
Ahmed, I've always had troublepronouncing your last name.
Is it Giaziri?
Giaziri.
Dr Ahmed (03:12):
Yeah, you're right.
First time, Giaziri.
Dr James (03:14):
Giaziri, Giaziri, hey, okay.
I should have just stuck withthat.
I should have stuck to my gunswith Giazeri.
There we go.
Ahmed, how are you today?
Dr Ahmed (03:20):
Very good.
How are you, James?
Dr James (03:21):
I'm amazing, man.
I'm full of beans.
I'm really excited for thispodcast.
Ahmed, you're you're you'reyou're you're out and about on
Facebook, so you might have afew uh people who recognize you
in the audience on this podcasttoday.
Maybe so.
But for those that don't, if wehad a little bit of a bio and
an introduction, I think thatmight be a nice place to begin.
Dr Ahmed (03:43):
Yeah.
Um parents are Libyan.
Um, they came to England in the80s.
Um, I grew up in London.
Um never really knew what Iwanted to do in life.
Um had a quite a strictupbringing.
The highlight of my my life asa kid was watching Match of the
(04:05):
Day on a Saturday.
And um, before Match of theDay, a lot of your older kind of
um group members know thatcasualty was on before match of
the day.
And so when teachers asked mewhat I wanted to do um uh when I
left school, realized I wasn'tgonna make it as a professional
(04:26):
footballer, so I said I wantedto be a paramedic.
Um I was getting quite goodgrades, so they said, why don't
you just do medicine?
And I said, Okay, I'll domedicine.
Um didn't get into medicine, uhand it still annoys me too
today.
Uh and um the advice I wasgiven was don't even put
(04:49):
dentistry as a second choice inmy UCAS form because it might
show people I'm not fullycommitted to medicine.
And so I didn't even get intodentistry in England, and I my
dad's secretary, she was Irish,and she said, Why don't you
apply in the Republic ofIreland?
(05:09):
Um, so I applied for medicineand dentistry in Ireland and got
an offer for dentistry inTrinity College in Dublin.
Dr James (05:19):
Oh wow, no less, man.
That's uh that's uh prettyprestigious, right?
In Ireland.
Dr Ahmed (05:25):
Yeah, I I had no clue about Ireland or Trinity because
uh I I started doing dentistryreluctant, reluctantly, and
doing Trinity went to Trinity,and um yeah, I used to go out in
uh bars and clubs, and peopleasked me, you know, where do I
study say Trinity?
And they're all like you know,going, Wow, you posh so and so,
(05:50):
and then just walk off likethis.
And I didn't realize how what aprestigious university it was.
I didn't realize it was seen asthe Oxbridge of Ireland, but
yeah, I I really didn'tappreciate how lucky I was, and
I was just kind of there, just alittle bit down in the dumps
that I wasn't doing medicine,and um yeah, it's it's kind of
been kind of the story of mylife.
(06:10):
I just kind of accidentally gotinto uh practices and business
um without having a strategy,and you know, I I do admire
people who are ambitious andhave a strategy, but my
motivation seems to be um I kindof find myself in situations a
(06:33):
little bit over my head, and ifI just work hard just to make
the best of a situation that Ifound myself in.
Dr James (06:44):
And it's not a bad strategy because you do do a lot
of growing when you do that toyourself and you bite off just a
little bit more than you canchew, right?
Dr Ahmed (06:52):
Yeah, I I think so.
I mean, I think there arepeople who just are naturally
motivated, they get up at fivein the morning and you know,
they really attack life.
Um I I just find myself infortunate situations, um able to
invest or you know, do do adifficult course, and I just
(07:15):
motivate myself to to just beable to complete um the course
or try and uh complete anyproblem that you know I find
myself in.
Um I've always found that Iused to be the worst of the best
in school or university.
(07:37):
They always always put me inthe top set in maths or science,
and I used to be surrounded bygeniuses who found it very easy,
and it was always my kind ofambition just to stay with those
guys, and that's where my workethic came.
Dr James (07:55):
Hey man, I mean, like I said, there's no, you know
what, it's interesting becausethose sorts of circumstances can
do that to you, and what I'vealways found is that if you do
find something unbelievablyeasy, well, it can make you one
of the things, one of theresults of that is it can make
you complacent, which isgenerally speaking, a trait
(08:15):
which is not that conducive topushing and being successful in
life in the long run.
So actually, maybe there weresome valuable lessons in there,
which it sounds like there were.
And of course, you're the brainpower.
You were up there like punchingwith the big boys, you know
what I mean.
But you actually came out witha really cool work ethic as
well, which is amazing.
And that, of course, has led towhat you've since achieved
(08:36):
whenever you left university,acquiring zero well, your first
practice going from zeropractices to one practice to
nine practices, which is really,really, really flipping cool.
And there's gonna be a lot ofwisdom in your head with regards
to that journey that can onlyever be learned through directly
experiencing that, and that'swhy the listener is gonna
(08:56):
benefit an absolute ton todayfrom this stuff.
So, listen, thank you forsharing your story.
And then you told me off camerabefore we jumped on, got your
first practice relatively lateat 32.
Dr Ahmed (09:07):
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, I I I worked, I cameback to London after graduation,
um, worked two years, a new NHScontract came in in 2006.
I didn't get a good offer, so Iwent traveling with a friend,
worked in Australia for a fewyears, and to be honest, I was
(09:28):
loving life in Australia um asan associate.
Um, had no ambition to own apractice.
Um, the weather was good, themoney was good.
Uh at 5 p.m., you just wantedto go out to the beach or meet
friends.
Um so yeah, I think ambitionfor me is almost weather
(09:51):
dependent.
Um when I'm living in a in anice climate, I don't really
want to work hard.
But around 2012-13, um, youknow, my father and other family
were trying to trying toemotionally trying to drag me
back to the UK.
And I, you know, I did I didrelent and came back.
(10:13):
Um my father's quite asuccessful businessman himself.
Um Libya is an oil-richcountry, and you know, he he he
was involved in working for oilcompanies, um, selling to Shell
BP.
But he he helped me with thedeposit of my first practice.
(10:34):
So I do appreciate I was veryvery fortunate um in that I had
that family help.
Um, but he convinced me to comeback.
And 2013 there wasn't manyprivate jobs for associates, so
I did buy a private practicebecause, in effect, I had to buy
(10:56):
myself a private job and umyeah, just saw a practice, big
plan list.
Um and I did like the idea ofhaving a secure monthly income
from uh from a den planpractice.
And at that stage, I I had myimplant MSc.
(11:17):
Um, I thought I could add tothis practice, uh, started
teaching myself orthodontics,just taught myself everything
that the practice wasn't reallydoing much of, uh, with the
security that it was actuallyvery profitable from day one.
So even if I couldn't add toit, I I should be okay.
And then the I was enjoyinglife actually running one
(11:42):
practice.
I was very naive.
Um, I think you know theseFacebook groups like like your
group, James, they weren'treally there back in 2013.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing, and um, and um one
malicious complaint um led to aCQC inspection in 2015, which I
(12:04):
failed.
And um I was actually onholiday when the inspection
happened, it was an unannounceduh inspection, and um got a text
message from my receptionist.
We didn't have a practicemanager.
That was uh another example ofmy naivety, um, saying the CQC
have just been in, and I was inTenerife at the time.
(12:25):
Uh and I was like, uh, whathappened?
She goes, I'll tell you whenyou come back, and I was just
like that usually means it'sbad.
Dr James (12:35):
The news never waits until you come back, the only
ever bad news, anyway.
Dr Ahmed (12:39):
I know, so I I flew back to Gatwick on Friday, like
at midday, and uh sure enough,the CQC inspector rang me as
soon as I landed and said, Um,could we meet you at your
practice at 4 p.m.?
Um and I was like, Yeah, yeah,no problem.
(13:00):
She goes, I recommend youcancel any patients after 4 p.m.
So I had associates workingthere at the time.
I was like, Why cancel patientsafter 4 pm?
She goes, We're gonna give youa notice of decision to close.
And then she's she said, Um,after you've been physically
handed that notice of decision,uh, it is illegal for you to see
(13:22):
any patients.
It was such a formal, formaland cold phone call that uh I
was really panicking.
And I don't know if it's a goodwhenever is a good time to have
your practice closed, but Iguarantee you four o'clock on a
Friday is not a great timebecause everyone is is shut.
(13:46):
Um the BDA um helpline is kindof shuts at five.
I tried to bring the lawyerthat helped me acquire the
practice.
Um to be fair, she answered,but she didn't know she's never
come across this.
Um, but basically, it was amalicious complaint.
Um, someone was uh trying tocommit insurance fraud.
(14:10):
He had a lot of decay in hismouth.
Um, he said he walked into adoor.
I don't know why I didn't evenpick up the red flag and wanted
to me to fill out the insuranceform saying that his all his
decayed teeth were broken fromwalking into a door.
Um when I kind of refused, hehe threatened to go to the GDC,
(14:30):
which he did, saying that I hurthim and I was using dirty
instruments.
Now, the GDC, to be fair, threwout the claim, but because he
just mentioned dirtyinstruments, they are legally
obliged to then notify the CQC.
And the CQC did an unannouncedinspection whilst I was
renovating the practice, andthat's why I was on holiday
(14:51):
because there was builders goingto be in.
And you know, the builders westill had we still had the
practice running, but thebuilders were a bit messy, and
the CQC came in and said, youknow, this is not safe, and um,
because I had no manager, weweren't doing the right audits,
we weren't well led, which theywere correct about, but I think
(15:12):
it could have been handled a bitmore kind of you know
diplomatically and you know lessless severe than then closing
the practice, and um yeah, I itwas a big den plan practice, and
I I spoke to the ex-principaland he said just ring ring den
plan, and literally Den Planarrived there and then, like
(15:36):
they rang me that evening, andthey literally just took the
keys of my practice off me andsaid, Um, we're going to run it
for the next three weeks, we'regonna negotiate with the CQC,
our inspectors are gonna come inand um inspect your practice,
we're gonna train your staff.
Dr James (15:55):
They were doing press releases for me, their PR team
were just sending um what isthat even a thing that this that
that can they can do that?
Dr Ahmed (16:05):
I didn't I didn't even know about it, but they just
saw how how naive and and andclueless I was.
Um, because the CQC closed mypractice at four, and then at
half four, we have a very smallNHS uh contract.
Half four, NHS England calledme saying um they already knew
(16:26):
this was happening.
The CQC tipped them off.
They said, We've heard yourpractice is being closed.
Um we've written to your allyour NHS patients, we've got
registered with us, but just incase there's one or two people
we don't have the correctaddress details for, we think
it's best we just do a pressrelease to the local radio
(16:47):
station and the local newspaper.
And I was like, is that is thatreally necessary?
Do we really need to publicizethis?
And you know, I I I was inshock, like, and I was like,
it's probably one of the fewtimes I was kind of had tears in
my eyes.
Like, and then um, yeah, Icalled them plan.
They said, listen, don't don'tworry about it, you know, we
(17:08):
we'll know what to do.
Our P PR team will take care ofit.
And but yeah, that that was abig, big lesson learned.
Dr James (17:17):
Oh my goodness, wow.
Well, listen, thank you forbeing so candid, Sharon.
That that is wow, fascinating.
There we are.
Dr Ahmed (17:26):
And it was a scary moment because um I was
renovating the practice, so Iput all my money into the
renovations, and um they CQCsaid we'll re-inspect you in
four weeks, and I said, I Idon't have the cash reserves to
be closed for four weeks, and sothe them plan negotiated they
(17:46):
come back after literally about14 days, and to be fair to them
plan, I mean I don't want toplug them plan here, but they
did really help me.
But they even lent me moneyjust to just to keep me going
until the reinspection.
Um, so yeah, you you kind ofknow who your friends are in in
these situations.
Dr James (18:07):
Wow, okay.
Well, I mean, that is aflipping crazy story.
And listen, as I say, thank youfor sharing.
I didn't I didn't know Denplanhave a contingency plan for
these sorts of things.
So obviously they do.
Obviously, this sort of stuffhappens, and they've got a
protocol in place, which is whatyou benefited from on that
occasion.
So that was your firstpractice, and you bought your
(18:29):
first practice in 2013.
Dr Ahmed (18:31):
2013, yeah.
Dr James (18:32):
2013, and that was the same year, that story.
Dr Ahmed (18:36):
So they this inspection happened just over a
year of owning it.
So I bought it October 2013.
The inspection happened inJanuary 2015.
So, yeah, just about 14-15months into practice ownership.
Um the the previous principaldidn't have a manager.
I thought I could run itwithout a manager, and you know,
(18:57):
and you know, I learned a very,very tough lesson that you
really need someone managing thepractice for you if you're
going to be full-time clinical,which I was.
Dr James (19:08):
There we are.
Okay, cool.
So basically, bought the firstpractice, all of this kicked
off.
We're just at the point, thisis almost like, wow, where do we
go from here?
The only way is up effectively.
Practice reopened, andpresumably things picked up and
things started to tick along andrun a little bit more smoothly.
(19:29):
How did you get your hungerback for dentistry and being a
principal at that stage to go onand buy it more practices?
Dr Ahmed (19:39):
I mean, again, it it's a constant theme in my life,
and you know, serendipity had alot to do with it.
Um when you buy a practice,your your email address is still
registered with the dentalagents.
And I I got a listing of apractice in Preston in 2016, um
(20:04):
which was really, reallyprofitable.
And um it was an NHS practice,and you know, it had my eyes uh
uh opened up a bit, and I waslike, you know, how how can a
NHS practice be this profitable?
And it did have a big um planlist as well, but it it was all
(20:26):
up and it was four hours away inPreston, and I just thought I
listen, I just want to go visitit just to see really how they
how they do it more thananything.
Um so yeah, one Saturdaymorning I drove up four hours to
Preston, and Preston is where Idid my implant MSc, so it
wasn't unknown to me.
And um, I turned up and it wasa very basic practice.
(20:51):
They they they had no website,um they had um no computers, it
was all pen and paper.
And this is 2016, so it's notnot decades ago.
Um, they did no marketing, theydid no um cosmetic dentistry,
they did no implants, um, noorthodontics, really, you know,
(21:16):
about 50% profit margin, uh,principal-led practice, um,
doing none of the you know, sexydentistry.
And they were making more thanmy private practice, and we we
had similar turnovers, you know,approaching a million.
And it kind of annoyed me, theywere making more money than me
um doing NHS and and plan.
(21:38):
And it it was almost out ofanger that I I wanted to buy it
because they were just they weremore successful than me.
I said, like, you know, I'vegot to have this practice, and I
I wasn't even thinking abouthow am I gonna run it, it was
the other side of the country,and yeah, I think in the back of
the mind looking back, therewas a bit of you know, if the
(22:00):
CQC closed a practice again, itwould be good if I had a second
income because you know I I hadalmost zero money when they
closed my first practice.
I mean, I didn't I didn't, yes,I've got family to fall back
on, but I I realized that youprobably do need a second income
in dentistry.
There's so many threats outthere.
(22:21):
Um, not only the GDC, um,you've got HMRC to worry about.
Um, you know, um there's a lotof blue and blue reporting, um,
there's a lot of litigation.
You know, your your back can goin dentistry, some some illness
can happen.
I realized early on you you doprobably need to think about a
(22:44):
second income in dentistrybecause of there are a lot of
threats to to you and yourcareer.
So there was that in the backof my mind, maybe I do need a
second source of income.
So I I offered full askingprice for this practice, was
rejected because you know I wasseen as an investor at that
stage.
Um, and then I forgot about it,and then the people that were
(23:08):
buying and practice, theirfinance fell through.
Um, so the owners came back tome and said, Are you still
interested?
And yeah, I I bought it October2016.
Again, they didn't have youknow a manager, so you know, I I
had to then interview a managerto run it for me.
Um the associates were quitequite further on in their
(23:35):
careers.
Um, the principal's wife, shewas a dentist, she retired,
another uh Associate, he wasprobably in his late 50s.
He was quite annoyed that Ibought the practice, um, having
a young new owner, and he saidto me, Um, give me a uh I I'm
(23:56):
I'm partly responsible for a lotof the goodwill of this
practice.
If you want me to stay, I want140,000 pounds, 70,000 for the
first year, 70,000 in my secondyear, or I'm walking.
So I just told him you canwalk, and so he just left.
And uh a third associate, sheshe retired.
(24:17):
Literally, so three dentistsretired within two months of me
buying a practice, so it wasquite full on in that first
couple of months.
I suddenly had to find threeassociates uh and a manager.
Um, but yeah, I I was quitelucky.
Um, I kept the print, the oneprincipal stayed on, the husband
(24:37):
stayed on, and he helped merecruit.
Um, I didn't know Preston, butword of mouth, he he kind of
said, you know, we'll we'll findyou some associates.
Dr James (24:47):
Wow, what a story.
So that was let me do some mathin my head.
Got your first practice at 32,20, and that was in 2012, right?
Is what you said.
Dr Ahmed (24:56):
2013.
Dr James (24:57):
2013, sorry, and then second practice 2016.
So you were 30, you were 32,first practice 35-ish.
Dr Ahmed (25:05):
Yeah.
So and yeah, again, it it'salmost like my kind of plan in
life um is being purelyaccidental.
I mean, I I wanted to be adoctor in the first place, but I
then found I had a secondpractice, which you know I
didn't really need, if I if I'mhonest.
(25:27):
I I was you know quite happy myincome with one practice.
Um, so in 2016, I I had incomefrom a second practice, which
was just kind of building up.
I didn't really need um, youknow, timing is everything.
I mean, interest rates were youknow 0% back then, and um I
wasn't really uh looking toinvest in more practices, but I
(25:50):
was speaking to a friend inworked in banking, and he was
quite amazed at the low interestrates banks were offering uh
dentists and dental practiceowners, even for goodwill
lending.
I mean, goodwill is uh is is anon-tangible asset, it's an
asset you can't touch.
(26:12):
But banks know that uh evenwhen a dental practice changes
hands, usually the clients stillgo to that same practice
because they associate um a lotof familiarity with the building
of the practice, uh theassociate dentists, they know
the receptionists, they know themanagers, they know the nurses.
(26:34):
So even when a practice changeshands, they calculate the
patient attrition is usuallyless than five percent.
So banks do lend quite a lot ofmoney on goodwill, and I didn't
really appreciate that in otherindustries um this is not
always the case.
And you know, when interestrates are below inflation, um
(27:01):
you are technically borrowingfree money, which I I I didn't
really fully appreciate at thetime.
Dr James (27:10):
By the way, I'm still here.
Yeah, I tried not to distractyou.
I'm back, I'm back.
There we are.
So yeah, uh that would thatthat's something unique to
dentistry that maybe us dentistsdon't always appreciate as much
as we should.
(27:30):
UK Dennists, Dennis Who Investnow has an official platform
where you can learn aboutfinance and obtain UK compliant,
verifiable TVD at the sametime.
The only platform that existson which you can do both.
The Smart Money Members Clubhas hundreds of hours of mini
courses, webinar series, andlive day recordings on all
things finance slash taxefficiency for UK dentists.
(27:53):
This includes complete courseson how tax works for UK
dentists, finance so that youcan invest and grow your own
money, business so you canimprove your profitability as an
associate or principal, and forthose out there that want it,
there's also a mini course andhow you can responsibly enter
the crypto space using measuredamounts of capital.
(28:13):
I've gathered this content fromthe best of the best I could
find in each respective area sothat you know that this is how
people at the forefront of eachfield advise their clients.
The Smart Money Members Clubalso contains discounts on
common things that UK dentistsneed to pay for on a regular
basis.
This includes a whopping 10%discount on dental indemnity,
(28:34):
the offer to beat your incomeprotection deal no matter what
you're paying, and for theprincipals out there, 5%
discount on lab bills and 10%discount on practice insurance.
These are designed to offerhundreds, if not thousands, in
annual savings.
The purpose of this membersclub is to not only boost your
monthly income but also manageyour outgoings as much as
possible and therefore createmore profit.
(28:55):
To celebrate the launch of theSmart Money Members Club, and
given that the CPD deadline iscoming up soon, I've decided to
offer the first month of thisplatform entirely for free.
This offer will end in thecoming weeks as soon as the
current CPD cycle is up.
To collect your CPD for thispodcast episode using the Smart
Money Members Club, feel free touse the link in the description
(29:17):
of this podcast.
Dr Ahmed (29:21):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, I I'm not I mean, I'mI'm quite risk-averse, I'm
quite, you know, conservative.
I'm not really into borrowinglots of money, but you know,
when when friends in bankingwere saying, you know, interest
you're borrowing at two and ahalf percent.
Um inflation at that time wastwo and a half, three percent.
They were just saying, listen,you're borrowing free money.
(29:44):
Um, so you you'd be stupid notto take it.
But you know, my money wasaccruing in the second practice,
and uh yeah, I I the only thingI really knew was was um
dentistry and property.
I did have a clean, keeninterest in property.
Um and when I was going onproperty forums, there was a lot
(30:10):
of kind of people using riskystrategies to buy buildings with
zero deposit.
And banks were actuallyoffering us zero deposit on the
buildings as long as thepractice was profitable.
So I was actually kind ofrealized how lucky I was.
I was actually not only buyinga practice, I was buying a
(30:31):
building as an asset as wellwith zero deposit.
So what I started doing was Istarted putting the buildings in
a separate limited company, andthe practice were going in
another limited company becauseeventually, you know, if I sell
the practice, I'd like I'd liketo keep the the buildings and
live off hopefully more passiveincome than dentistry.
Dr James (30:57):
Yeah, it's a good strategy that and uh uh as well
as that another common thing iswhere people put them in a
pension, I believe, for like aSIP or something along those
lines.
Uh, but even a limited company,I've actually never thought
about that before.
Like, oh, I guess you could putthem in a separate limited
company as well.
So there we go.
Dr Ahmed (31:14):
Yeah, yeah.
No, you you can put them inSIPs, but I I think with 40,000
a year, I know that's increasedrecently.
Um, maximum you can put into aSIP.
That um, yeah, if you buy abuilding for five or two hundred
thousand, you have to use fiveyears worth of pension allowance
to put it into a SIP.
(31:34):
So, you know, that would haveslowed me down a bit.
But yeah, there's there's a lotof strategies, and yeah, do
speak to accountants andfinancial advisors.
Um, I'm starting to do that nowand reverse engineer my
strategy.
But, you know, if I was Fordthinking, uh I would have
probably you know had the SIPfrom day one.
Dr James (31:52):
Well, do you know what that actually uh brings me on
to something that I'd like toask in a little bit uh further
on uh down this podcast, uh youknow, uh during the proceedings
of this podcast, and that iswhat are the biggest lessons
that you learned or things thatyou would do differently,
because that stuff is gold dust,especially for people who are
going on a similar journey foruh a similar journey to
(32:13):
yourself.
But just before we do that, soyou've just given us a really
good understanding of thejourney, so to speak, as to your
first practice, secondpractice, and how things
continued from then.
And if you just bring us rightup to this present day, how
things look, nine praxis the waythings are right now, and if
(32:33):
you look back on what you'vedone and the you know everything
that you've achieved, are youhappy?
Do you want more?
Is there ever a stop button, orhow does that how does it feel?
How does it feel for you?
Dr Ahmed (32:47):
Yeah, I mean, it I mean, I I I don't know whether I
was driven by ego or or youknow, I or I I really had that
deep ambition to to grow a microcorporate, but it it did grow
organically.
I was you know, moneyaccumulated in in the practice
(33:10):
accounts.
I I didn't know much about youknow stocks and shares.
Um, you know, I only reallyjoined your group after COVID.
Um I knew a little bit aboutproperty, but I was acquiring
property alongside my practices.
So I just decided that youknow, once the funds built up,
I'd look to add maybe onepractice a year, and that's
(33:34):
essentially what I did andfocused on marketing.
I mean, I I did have a kind ofvery um straightforward strategy
when I bought a practice.
I did like practices withrepeat source of incomes,
whether it is NHS practices witha high UDA value or a big plan
(33:56):
practice.
Um, I like that security of therepeat income, and then you
know, use my marketing team tobuild up on the private income.
And one one practice did growto a size is actually the
Preston one where I needed toopen a second location, and that
was my first squat, and thathappened in 20 2021, 2022.
(34:23):
Um squats are stressful.
Um, I know Bobby appears inyour podcast.
Yeah, and yeah, you know, ifyou're gonna work in the
practice in and you're reallymotivated, it is possible to do
a successful squat.
(34:43):
Um but you know, I remembergoing to a talk uh actually in
Australia about buying apractice or setting up a squat,
and it's useful to look at thepractice income in different
instalments.
So the first hundred thousanduh uh practice generates because
(35:04):
of the high fixed costs, maybeonly five to ten percent of that
is profit, pure profit, andthen the second um tranch, the
hundred thousand to two hundredthousand uh tranche, maybe 20,
10 to 20 percent of that is pureprofit because your fixed costs
more or less stay the same.
(35:24):
And if you build on a turnover,you're just increasing some of
your variable costs, which arenot usually that much.
From two to three hundredthousand, maybe that tranch 20
to 30 percent of it is isprofit.
So when you buy an existingpractice, because your fixed
costs don't really change thatmuch, whatever you add to it
(35:47):
from marketing and privateincome, more a bigger portion of
that is profit than when you'restarting a squat.
And I do admire people who doset up squats um because it does
take a lot of work, and I it'smy personal belief if I do half
the work uh of setting up asquat, I can probably double a
(36:11):
turnover of an existing goodpractice.
Um but I think other lessonsI've learned is just just
obviously having infrastructure.
Um after about four practices,you do need an operations
manager.
Um, luckily, one of my goodmanagers who decided to retire
(36:33):
early, she stayed on as my PAoperations manager.
Um, you you need someone justhelping the managers.
Um, most managers, not all ofthem, are nurses or receptions
that have got promoted.
So they they're probably notvery experienced is uh uh
running a big business.
(36:54):
So it'd be good if you had amanager with not only dental
experience but businessexperience to help them.
And yeah, just just uh thinkabout I think like any
investment, if you put down adeposit, how are you gonna get
that deposit back?
Um how long is it gonna takeyou?
(37:15):
If I if I invest in a practice,if I can get my deposit back in
two, three years, then I know Ican grow further.
Um and the only thing stoppingme growing more is I'm still the
only um director of of all ninepractices, and um you know,
unless you know I really investinto a head office, um, it's
(37:38):
gonna be difficult for me togrow more at this stage.
Dr James (37:42):
And you know what?
That's actually something I'dlove to ask you about.
How do you delegate things evenbefore even even where you are
right now before you get thehead office?
How is it possible to managethose nine dental practices
with, let me see, seven times24, 168 hours in a week?
I'm curious to know about that.
But just before I talk aboutthat, I was just wondering, you
mentioned fixed costs andvariable costs there.
(38:04):
And I feel a lot of dentistsknow fixed costs and variable
costs and that uh, how can wesay nomenclature that account
accountants use, but maybe notas many as they should there,
you know, maybe not as many asthere should be, uh, understand
that stuff.
So I'm just curious how how howuh how um refined does one's
understanding of reading abalance sheet and the numbers
(38:27):
need to be to expand at the ratethat you've expanded at?
Do they just need to basicallybe able to understand uh you
know PL to a basic level, or dothey really need a refined
understanding of how to read abalance sheet, in your opinion?
Dr Ahmed (38:44):
I mean, I don't think you you need a um massive
knowledge about this.
You you you do need to speak toan accountant.
Um and when you're buying apractice um and you've got the
accounts there in black andwhite, it's very easy for you to
know the the fixed costs, thethe rent or um the electricity
(39:09):
costs, the rates, and you know,the variable costs and and the
staff costs.
The variable costs areobviously just your dental
materials and and your labbills.
Um but yeah, it uh it is it isreally useful, and again, it's
easy to do this with an existingpractice to know how many days
(39:32):
the practice is actually open,and then you divide you know the
the fixed costs by the numberof days of trading, so you know
you're running costs per day,and then you can break it down
by how many surgeries you are,so you know how much it costs to
run a surgery in a per day, andif you really wanted to know
(39:55):
how much it runs per hour, thenthat's quite useful to know.
And it's it's very useful toknow to share with the associate
so they know what they need togross just so that the principal
is not losing money.
And you know, when you havethose conversations with your
associates when they haven'tmade that target, and you tell
them it's actually it'd beactually more profitable for me
(40:17):
to have given you 50 pounds andtold you not to turn up today
than you turning up todaybecause what you generated
didn't even cover you know theoverheads, it is a big wake-up
call for some associates.
And I don't think thosediscussions are had enough
between principals andassociates.
Dr James (40:34):
I see.
And listen, that's veryvaluable what you just said,
because I feel like sometimespeople, how can we say, fixate
on understanding the balancesheet to a huge level before
they make progress in theirjourney, whenever it comes to
buying dental practices to hearit from yourself, where it
carries some gravitas and itallows dentists to understand
what truly is necessary.
(40:55):
Let's pull it back to what Iwas saying just a second ago in
terms of delegation.
The question that we discussedbefore we talked about the
numbers thing we mentioned justa second ago.
So I was just curious, wheneverit comes to delegation, I know
that you told me off camerayou're still in clinic three
days a week.
Dr Ahmed (41:12):
Yeah.
Dr James (41:12):
Yeah, fair play to you.
And you know your time outsideof clinic.
How does that look?
Are you constantlyfirefighting, so to speak, or do
you have some time to yourself?
Have you managed to getsomebody in who can run that for
you?
I know you said you had an opsmanager.
How does that look?
Dr Ahmed (41:30):
Yeah, I mean, my my ops manager, she she looks after
the other managers.
Um, I don't have a clinicaldirector, and that that's
probably the next step is tohave someone as a clinical
director.
Um, I will need two because ofthe geographical spread of the
practices, and so yes, I am notfirefighting, but uh you know,
(41:54):
I've got many hats.
I'm doing I'm doing dentistryjust so my knowledge stays
relevant because a lot of my newassociates they need some sort
of mentorship.
Um so yeah, my my work lifebalance is is completely out of
sync.
Um I do take 12 weeks off ayear, which sounds great, but uh
(42:20):
you know, I'm on my laptopliterally every day, even when
I'm in Spain or things likethat.
It's it's a sacrifice I'm I'mwilling to make at the moment
because you know I do hope tokind of retire uh young and
hopefully get that time back,but you know, you can't take
things for granted.
But yeah, I work three days andthen I have two admin days.
(42:44):
Really, ideally, I need to dropone more clinical day and have
three admin days.
Um, mixed in with those admindays, I do like to mentor
dentists where I can just sitwith them as their assistant and
just help them with you knowcertain procedures.
Um that really helps withretention and when you're
(43:06):
recruiting.
If you if you can help you knowyounger dentists, then they do
appreciate that.
Um, you know, there is a lot ofkind of trust issues in
dentistry, but you know, uhpeople you know trying to uh
retain money off associates, um,and then if the associate uh
(43:27):
complains, then it leads to aGDC complaint.
If you if you can be there forassociates and help them and let
them know you know you're ontheir side and share your
experiences not only indentistry and business, because
most of us graduating have havevery little business knowledge,
then they do they do tend tostick around.
So I am fairly happy with myretention and you know, you
(43:49):
know, I've got good associatesworking for me, which has helped
me grow myself.
Dr James (43:54):
Awesome, man.
Thank you for that.
And do you know what?
In your experience and going onthis journey that we talked
about just a second ago, I'mjust curious to know, now from
the vantage point that you'represently sad at, right now,
presently, looking back overthis uh yeah, as I say, this
voyage of going from being a32-year-old, getting your first
(44:15):
practice, CQC, uh doing whatthey did, reopening again, and
then all of a sudden you'reacquiring more and more and more
to get to where you are today.
If you could do anythingdifferently, or if you had some
advice for that 32-year-oldversion of yourself, what might
it be?
Dr Ahmed (44:32):
I you know, I think we're speaking about this off
air.
I kind of bit off more than Ican chew.
Um, and I I think just getadvice of people that have
walked that path before.
Um I do now, you know, I'm in aWhatsApp group of other um
(44:52):
dentists that own multiplesites, and it's good having that
advice um on hand, but Iprobably didn't take enough
advice at the beginning.
Um so and yeah, I kind of bitoff more than I can chew, and
I'll be quite honest withmyself.
(45:14):
I think I know my dad couldprobably help me out financially
if I if I ever got stuck, butnot not everyone has that safety
net.
So yeah, I I was quitefortunate.
But if you are gonna buy morethan one practice, you know,
just reach out to people likemyself or I can put you in touch
with other people who have doneit.
And you know, most of us arehappy to share our experiences.
(45:37):
You know, we you know, we'renot we're not competing with
everyone, we we've all kind ofyou know.
Made our wealth and you knowwe're just you know happy to
share and collaborate with otherpeople.
Dr James (45:49):
You know, that's the thing that is one of the biggest
misconceptions I think thatpeople have about business that
they think that it's reallycutthroat and everybody's out
for themselves.
Actually, 90% of people whohave done well just want to
share what they've learned ontheir journey because that
knowledge is scarce, and theonly real way you can learn how
to do that stuff is to just goand experience it.
There's no book, there's notextbook, there's no YouTube
(46:11):
video, there's no course, so tospeak.
You just have to do it.
And there's a big part, there'sa there's this big sense of
compassion and willingness togive back from people who have
been on that voyage and peoplewho've experienced that stuff,
and they just don't want othersto struggle in the same way that
they did.
So, yeah, very much resonatewith that, and that's something
that I've observed too.
(46:31):
And I feel like a lot of peopleout there don't realize that.
Why would you struggle on yourown when you can just ask?
You get the right person thatcan accelerate your own journey
and they enjoy giving you thatinformation too.
Dr Ahmed (46:41):
Yeah, I mean, 100%.
I mean, there's there's loadsof us out there, you know.
I I don't I'm not selling acourse, I'm not, I'm not, I
don't teach, but you know, if ifyou and I've learned this
through property forums, if youjust say to someone that's
reached where you want to go andsaid, you know, do you mind if
I buy you coffee or buy youdinner just so I can pick your
brain and just be honest aboutit?
(47:03):
Nine times out of ten, theysaid, Yeah, no problem.
Dr James (47:06):
You know, they want the dinner, man, you know, in a
nice restaurant.
Absolutely, it's a win-win.
It's a win-win.
Listen, Ahmed, thank you somuch for sharing your wisdom and
knowledge today.
And let's say somebody did wantto reach out to you off the
back of this podcast.
Where are they best off findingyou?
Out of curiosity.
Dr Ahmed (47:26):
Yeah, so I'm I'm in your group.
Um, I'll I'll message you mydirect email and contact number
anyway.
But you know, just look forAhmed Jazeiri.
There's only one of us, Ibelieve.
Dr James (47:38):
Uh got you, gotcha, gotcha.
Okay, thank you so much, mate.
Well, listen, as I say, thankyou so much for generously
giving up your time because Iknow you're flipping busy for
the benefit of the audience.
Thank you so much for thisamazing podcast today, and I'm
already looking forward to whenwe have you back on again at
some stage to get a catch up uhwith regards to the next leg of
(47:59):
your journey, however thatlooks.
That'll be interesting and funwhenever that occurs.
Amen.
Thank you so much.
We'll see each other very soon.
Thanks, Jen.
Popular Podcasts
Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb
Joy is essential. And it's also elusive. You can't order it, borrow it, or simply hope it into life. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence: The Joy 101 Podcast with Hoda! Best known for her Emmy-winning work and co-anchoring Today, Hoda Kotb infuses her authenticity, curiosity, and warmth into conversations with the world’s most fascinating people. Entertainment legends, sport icons, wellness experts, and everyday folks will share how they find, allow, and experience joy. Hoda will offer her own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced, harmonious life. If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune in to these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Joy after a breakup, joy as an empty-nester, joy after loss, joy as a caretaker — Hoda's new podcast will speak to you. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb, an iHeartPodcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com