June 28, 2026 • 22 mins
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Your indemnity renewal lands and the number looks bigger than last year, so the obvious question is: are you paying more for the same thing, or paying for protection you can actually rely on? We sit down with Adam O’Keeffe from AllMed Pro Insurance Specialists to translate the confusing bits of dental indemnity into plain English, so UK dentists can make sharper decisions at renewal time.
We talk through why renewals peak around July, August and September, why indemnity premiums often rise quickly in the first years after qualification, and how claims trends and claims costs feed into pricing. Then we move past the headline quote and into what really determines value: 24/7 access to dental legal advice, whether you can get claims occurrence cover, and whether your policy has contract certainty with clear terms and conditions and the safety net of the Financial Ombudsman Service.
The most important comparison is discretionary cover versus insurance-backed cover, plus the often-misunderstood world of claims-made policies. We explore what happens if a complaint arrives years after treatment, how retirement and runoff cover fit in, and why vicarious liability means a law firm may pursue multiple parties, including the practice. Adam also shares a practical checklist of extras that can matter when things escalate, including contingent cover when switching provider and PR and reputation protection if a story reaches the press.
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Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. Investment figures quoted refer to simulated past performance and that past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results/performance.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr James (01:15):
August slash September is a pretty painful time of the
year for us dentists becauseour indemnity fees are due and
those can tally up to quite theexpense.
So certainly anything that cansave on that front and ensure
that we're getting the best dealis helpful.
And that's why I have Mr.
Adam O'Keeffe joining us todayfrom AllMed Pro Insurance
(01:36):
Specialists.
He's here to share with us whatus dentists need to know in
order to save some money, getthe best deal, ensure that our
cover is adequate for alleventualities, and make this
time of year as least painful aspossible.
As ever, you can claim your CPDfor this episode within the
official Dentists who investSmart Money Members Club.
(01:57):
Smart Money Members Club alsoincludes multiple mini courses
and webinar series on financefor dentists, including how to
become as tax efficient aspossible, as well as
understanding investing.
All of this content counts asverifiable CPD, and you can
download your certificates thereand then upon completion of
each lesson.
In addition to this, we alsoinclude a whopping 10% discount
(02:18):
on your dental indemnity and a5% discount on lab bills for
dental principals, amongst otherperks and discounts for
members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
verifiable CPD for this episode.
Something super topical today,which is indemnity, and this is
(02:38):
the time of year where usdentists start to think about it
again.
And I've got my good compadre,good friend, Adam O'Keeffe
Satwaifu today, head of All MedPro.
We're gonna be talking aboutindemnity and what you need to
know to get the best dealbecause everybody feels like
they're paying too much, right?
It's a common gripe.
Us dentists love a bargain,right?
And that's fine.
That's okay.
What do you reckon, Adam?
Adam (02:57):
Yeah, well, you certainly do, and um, yeah, it's it's that
time of year.
Uh July, August, September, uh,the peak of indemnity renewals.
Um, so yeah, uh good time tohave this conversation for sure.
Dr James (03:10):
Let's do it.
Interested to know, and itmight be there's probably this
might have an obvious answer.
I'm gonna ask it anyway.
Why is it that around about nowthere is a peak?
Is it because this is when allthe FDs, or sorry, the well,
yeah, the FDs go into work,right?
And then this is it's like therenewal of the academic year.
It's like a knock-on effectfrom that, right?
Adam (03:31):
Yeah, you've you've got a spot on the um most high most of
them graduated around this timeof year, first job, um, going
into work September, Octobertime.
So there's a few other times ofyear where um there's slight
peaks, January, February.
Um, but other than that, yeah,this is this is peak season.
Dr James (03:51):
Interesting.
There we go.
I'm gonna ask another questionthat might have an obvious
answer, but again, I want to askit anyway, because this is
always at the top of dentists'minds.
Why does it go up so much,almost like exponentially in the
first few years?
The the fee for indemnity, therenewal fee.
Adam, why do dentists typicallyexperience that, at least with
(04:13):
some companies?
Adam (04:14):
Um, well, if we if we're talking uh those who've recently
qualified, um, quite oftenthere's a bit more supervision
around the first couple ofyears, so it's staged, the
premiums increase.
Um, in terms of increasing uhin in general terms, which we
are seeing uh many of theindemnity providers increase
their rates uh year on year, themain factor to that will be
(04:36):
claims.
Um we have seen claims trendson the app and claims costs on
the up over the last, you know,uh well year on year.
So um that's the main driverfor premiums going up
generically, I would guess.
Dr James (04:50):
Got a got a query as well, interest someone for the
audience.
I know that there is a commontheme that litigation is going
up in dentistry, or at leastthere was over the last few
years.
Is that still on the rise or isit kind of leveled off?
Adam (05:05):
Um I would say it's it's not as it's not as on the rise
as it was, say, four or fiveyears ago.
It is leveling off, but claimsclaims are still very costly.
Um, so that's that's that'swhere the issue still lies.
Dr James (05:20):
Yikes, okay, and naturally that's gonna come
through in our indemnity bill asa dentist.
Well, listen, it's a little bitlike this.
If we're gonna have to pay forsomething, let's make sure we're
paying for value.
So let's cut to the chase.
How do us dentists know thatwe're getting a good deal when
it comes to our insurancerenewal or our indemnity?
Adam (05:44):
Well, there's there's a lot of good indemnity providers
out there nowadays in the last10-15 years since 2011 when we
set up uh, you know, you onlyhad three uh indemnity
providers, medical defenceorganizations, and it's it's
kind of moved on quite a bitover the last uh over that
period.
Um I would say you look beyonduh sort of the claims
(06:06):
occurrence, you look beyond thecontract certainty, you look
beyond the 24-7 support, that'sa very minimum, in my opinion,
uh what you should have.
Um you look beyond that, whatelse can that indemnity provider
provide me at my time of need?
Where is that um, you know,something might hit the press?
Do I need PR or reputationprotection?
(06:27):
Um, you know, I'm strugglingwith uh, I don't know, mental
health, or you know, what elsecan this indemnity provider help
me at my time of need?
And I think that's that that'sit really.
Um so yeah, it's getting fairvalue for what you are are
paying for and um making surethat indemnity provider is on on
(06:47):
your side.
Dr James (06:48):
I see.
So as a minimum, those would bethe things that you would
expect.
So that's almost like achecklist.
And am I right in sending notevery obviously we're definitely
not hearing named, but just outof interest, you know, you know
more about the market than me.
It's not always a given thatevery provider provides that
stuff, right?
Adam (07:04):
No, not all providers um offer the occurrence cover, um,
and not all providers providecontract certainty.
Um by contract certainty, Imean an insurance product with
terms and conditions.
Um uh or and you know, most dooffer the 24-7 support, but
again, it that that's the sortof minimum expectation you'd
expect to speak to a dentallegal advisor if you've got a uh
(07:27):
a query or or require advice.
Dr James (07:29):
Interested to know, and I feel like you'll know the
answer to this.
Is there is it a bit of a is Idon't know if this is an urban
myth or not, but some people saythat even when you consult your
indemnity provider over thephone, as in you just have a
query or there's some sort ofsniff of a complaint and you're
speaking to them for advice,that that then means that your
(07:50):
indemnity goes up.
Adam (07:52):
No, um, well, I say I say no, not for us.
Uh we encourage uh individualsto give us a call at the end of
the day.
If we can uh get on tosomething early and stop that
sort of uh going towards a claimor escalating, we want to know
sooner rather than later.
And I know uh there is aproject, uh I think it's called
(08:14):
Project Steer, um, where anumber of the indemnity
providers uh are within thatgroup, and that is one of the
main intentions of it, not topenalize dentists for using the
advice line.
Um so from our perspective,call us as much as you need.
Um we want to help you outearly doors.
Dr James (08:34):
Well, that makes sense actually, now that you said out
loud, because surely thatinvestment of time on the
provider's half, on theprovider's behalf, uh basically
uh will mean that they can thensubsequently avoid more of an
outlay later.
Adam (08:53):
Yeah, 100%.
That's exactly it.
Dr James (08:55):
Makes sense.
Interesting, interesting.
Okay, one thing we have to talkabout because this is a topic
of contention that I still feela lot of dentists don't know
about this.
And certainly for the ones thatdo, they're a little up in arms
about it.
Discretionary versusnon-discretionary cover.
(09:19):
Yeah, maybe it might be nice ifwe had a bit of an explainer as
to what those terms mean, firstof all.
Adam (09:24):
Yeah, of course.
I touched on it um right uhright back at the beginning.
Um, when we first set up in2011, it was uh three
discretionary providers.
Now, discretionary cover ispretty much as it sounds.
Um, it's down to the discretionof the provider whether they
will cover a claim or not.
Um now, I always say, would youinsure your house for fire and
(09:49):
then wait till you've had thefire to find out whether you're
covered or not?
Um you know, uh, would youcover your car?
And then, you know, you have anaccident and it's only at the
point or the time of theaccident you know whether you're
covered or not.
I don't think many of us would.
So with discretionary cover,there's no sort of terms and
conditions, um, there's nofinancial ombudsman service at
(10:12):
the end of it.
So if you if a claim isrepudiated or rejected, then
you've got no rights ofrecourse.
So on the flip side, you havecontract certainty or a contract
of insurance, it has the termsand conditions, uh, it has the
you know, you you complete yourproposal, you say you're doing
X, Y, and Z, they they coverthose for you.
(10:34):
And any exclusions will bethere in black and white.
Um, and I mean exclusions, it'snormally active activities you
haven't declared.
Um so it's and again, if thereare any issues with that claim,
you've got you have got theOmbudsman service and the right
of recourse.
So um for me it's it's prettyobvious insurance or contract of
(10:57):
insurance is the way forward.
Dr James (10:59):
And am I right in saying because I guess what
might be going through somepeople's heads who are listening
is they might be saying, hey,but if I get non-discretionary,
or sorry, if I get discretionarycover, in which case, well,
really it's not even necessarilythe case that they'll give me
cover should there be a claim.
I guess what some people mightassume is that that is cheaper
(11:21):
as a result.
Adam (11:24):
No, no.
Um in some cases, you know, insome cases it'll be more
expensive.
Um yeah, looking at looking atuh all all the indemnity
providers, um, there's not toomuch between them in terms of
what you pay nowadays.
Um there's just different uhtweaks between what they cover
and what they don't.
Dr James (11:44):
I see, so that's not even necessarily the case.
Well, it's good to spell thatout, right?
Because you might assume thatfrom listening.
Adam (11:51):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr James (11:53):
It's a bit like to use a crude analogy, comprehensive
cover for your car versus thirdparty.
The third party is gonna becheaper, right?
But there's less cover.
Uh but it's not even it's noteven quite third party.
It's just it's because at leastthird party you definitely will
get something if someonecrashes into you, is literally
just the case.
Adam (12:11):
There's some providers out there who offer claims made
insurance, uh, which is cheaper.
Um by claims made insurance, itis a con is contract certain
policy, but what it is is if youit's a bit like your car and
home insurance, really.
Um whilst the policy'senforced, your cover's enforced.
Once that policy ends, coverends.
(12:31):
So in the scenario of adentist, you do treatment
yesterday, your policy's inforce.
Um yeah, it expires tomorrow.
If a claim comes in fortreatment performed yesterday
and it's expired in a couple ofdays, you won't be covered.
So that is cheaper.
Obviously, there are ways youcan work around that by renewing
the policy, going elsewhere,getting runoff cover.
(12:54):
But um, yeah, there are cheaperoptions, but I I wouldn't uh
advise taking claims made toinsurance unless you unless you
really need to.
Dr James (13:02):
Interesting.
And you just touched uponsomething that was always a
question in my mind.
Let's say you have a dentistwho is covered their whole
career, and then all of a suddenthey retire, and then let's say
they don't renew their GDC.
I don't know if that makes adifference or not, but let's say
they don't renew their GDC,then let's say a patient like 10
years later makes a claimagainst them, where does that
(13:24):
money come from?
Do they chase the dentist off?
Adam (13:28):
Uh yeah, so if you're on an occurrence policy, um, as
long as uh that policy was inforce at the time of the
treatment, no matter how long inthe future a claim comes in,
you'll be covered.
So it would go back to thatpolicy.
So say a dentist retired in Idon't know, 2015.
Um, they have a claim come innow for treatment performed in
(13:48):
2015, for instance.
As long as they had anoccurrence policy in place, it
should pay out.
Dr James (13:54):
I see.
And let's say they didn't haveoccurrence cover in place.
Would they subsequentlypersonally be liable or would it
be the general practice?
Adam (14:04):
Yeah, unless they've uh unless they've um found any
other arrangements, there thereare things that you can arrange
like runoff cover with theinsurer, but usually that's
payable annually after youretire.
Um some insurers include thatas standard for maybe three
years, five years, ten years.
It depends on the insurer,really.
Um but yeah, if if there was nocover in place, um these law
(14:26):
firms like to chuck mud, sothey'll chuck mud wherever it
sticks, whether that's theindividual dentist, whether
that's the dental practice, orwhat whether that's any other
dentists who have been involvedin the treatment.
So um, yeah.
Dr James (14:39):
Wow.
So they'll they'll just puttheir mind to it and try to find
a way, basically.
Yeah.
I see.
Okay, interesting.
I always had that query in mymind.
I was like, how did that work?
Because you hear aboutvicarious liability.
Adam (14:54):
Yeah.
Dr James (14:55):
But that doesn't matter.
Yeah.
Adam (14:58):
Yeah, that that's where that would come in, yeah.
Um often the name above thedoor will be the dental
practice.
Uh a claim comes in or claimantmakes makes a claim.
The law firm will look toinvolve all parties involved in
in that treatment, usually.
Um, and quite often it'll it'llfall on the individual's
indemnity.
Um, but the vicarious liabilityis there for a number of
(15:20):
reasons.
One, if if they do have uh, youknow, if if they are at fault
in any way in any way thepractice.
Two, if that individual um, andwe do see it, goes back
overseas, we can't find theindemnity cover, or um, you
know, or thirdly, maybe even thecover's expired, or you know,
(15:41):
we touched on it a moment ago,if it was on a claim is made
basis, they have not renewed itor they've not, you know, um,
that that's where the precariousliability might start step in.
Dr James (15:51):
Interesting.
So, Adam, if we had tosummarize everything, if you
were to give everybody who's alistener to this podcast a
checklist of the hot fact thingsthat they hot, hot, hot and
sharp, hot and fast things,sorry, is the word I'm looking
for, things that they can takeaway to their indemnity provider
to make sure that they'recovered and that all the bases
(16:11):
mentioned in this podcast arewell, we we've got those, we've
got those protected, you're likethey're the they're working for
the dentist, or we've got thosein our hands, shall we say?
What would that be?
What would that be?
I know we'll put you on thespotlight there, but I feel like
you should have.
Adam (16:26):
Well, I've touched on uh two or three of them already.
So claims occurrence, first andforemost, do they offer that?
Yes, uh great.
Contract certainty, again,we've we've touched on that.
Uh we've said the 24-7 supportand advice, make sure that you
know, uh, maybe have a look whotheir dental legal advisors are
as well.
Um, you know, there's somereally good dental legal
(16:48):
advisors out there.
There's other things you wantto look at, like um contingent
cover.
And what I mean by contingentcover is there if you have moved
from a discretionary providerto an insurance-backed provider,
um, you and the claim come infor the time you're with a
discretionary provider, um, ifthere was if that discretionary
(17:12):
provider repudiated a claim,you're left a bit in the lurch.
So a number of the insurers,including ourselves, will
provide contingent cover whichwill pick up any claims
repudiated for the period youwith that with that
discretionary provider.
So it just gives you that extrasort of uh security when you're
moving.
Because I know moving from thelikes of uh the MDOs, um, those
(17:34):
who provide that that kind ofcover, sometimes you know you've
been with them for 10, 12 yearsplus.
Um, and it's quite a big jump.
Um, and there's someuncertainty, and I think just
having some extra securityaround that that move is quite
important.
Um what other words, I mean Ithink there's also other things
(17:56):
like what we offer uh 24-7 GPsupport service.
Now, it might not sound much,but it's quite popular with our
members.
Um, if they're real or a memberof their immediate family are
real, they can call up, um, getsome help, get a prescription,
you know, get back to workquicker, even.
Uh, so I mean, it's justlooking at what else they do
(18:16):
around around the indemnity andhow else they can support you at
your time of need.
PR and reputation, what do theydo around that?
Um, we know things do get outinto the press, um, and your
reputation, uh, as you all know,is vital.
So, you know, uh, what else canthey do to support you in that
in that time?
We we've got a PR team who willstep in, help you out, um, and
(18:41):
try and turn that what might bewhich will be negative news into
a sort of a positive spin.
So those kind of things I'dreally look out for.
Dr James (18:50):
That is crazy, right?
That that that can be done, youknow, uh that you can kind of
uh so you how does that work?
Just out of pure curiosity,more than anything else.
Is it that you you releasepress and media outlets that
basically say positive thingsabout the dentist, or you go to
the source and you're like, hey,this isn't on?
I'm just curious.
Adam (19:10):
Yeah, a lot of it is um and it's way above my pay grade
in terms of what they do, but umthey've got PR teams who will
go onto the likes of Google uhand put positive news uh out
there on you and try and italmost try and get that negative
news down um through theranking.
So um yeah, it's it's quiteclever how they do it.
(19:31):
But um yeah, it's it's I Ithink it's a vital thing to
have.
Um some other things are likeand it's it's it's what I think
uh is dentists need really, oror they need to look beyond year
one.
They need to look like whatdoes next year look like, what
does a year after?
Um something we do is weprovide a price guarantee for
(19:53):
three years, uh, you know,subject to not having lots of
claims, for instance.
But um I think that gives youjust the assurance, you know,
I'm I'm paying this much nextthis year, next year it's gonna
be the same the following year.
And as part of that, we'll thengive you a two weeks free cover
next year, four weeks a yearafter.
And I think I think I think forthe type, you know, it's not
(20:14):
it's not a small outlayindemnity.
So I do believe it uh, youknow, you should have some
reward for your loyalty.
So that's one thing which it'sit's just looking at those
additional covers those thoseindemnity providers can offer
you.
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(22:14):
of this podcast.
Adam (22:18):
We would be more than happy to provide you with an
audit of your indemnity, see uhany money you can save, and also
give you any advice on yourcurrent arrangements.
Uh please call me personally on07725-580148 or
adamallmed.co.uk is my emailaddress.
We've got a link below, uh,which will take you to our
(22:41):
proposal and our indemnityoffering.
August slash September is a pretty painful time of the
year for us dentists becauseour indemnity fees are due and
those can tally up to quite theexpense.
So certainly anything that cansave on that front and ensure
that we're getting the best dealis helpful.
And that's why I have Mr.
Adam O'Keeffe joining us todayfrom AllMed Pro Insurance
(01:36):
Specialists.
He's here to share with us whatus dentists need to know in
order to save some money, getthe best deal, ensure that our
cover is adequate for alleventualities, and make this
time of year as least painful aspossible.
As ever, you can claim your CPDfor this episode within the
official Dentists who investSmart Money Members Club.
(01:57):
Smart Money Members Club alsoincludes multiple mini courses
and webinar series on financefor dentists, including how to
become as tax efficient aspossible, as well as
understanding investing.
All of this content counts asverifiable CPD, and you can
download your certificates thereand then upon completion of
each lesson.
In addition to this, we alsoinclude a whopping 10% discount
(02:18):
on your dental indemnity and a5% discount on lab bills for
dental principals, amongst otherperks and discounts for
members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
verifiable CPD for this episode.
Something super topical today,which is indemnity, and this is
(02:38):
the time of year where usdentists start to think about it
again.
And I've got my good compadre,good friend, Adam O'Keeffe
Satwaifu today, head of All MedPro.
We're gonna be talking aboutindemnity and what you need to
know to get the best dealbecause everybody feels like
they're paying too much, right?
It's a common gripe.
Us dentists love a bargain,right?
And that's fine.
That's okay.
What do you reckon, Adam?
Adam (02:57):
Yeah, well, you certainly do, and um, yeah, it's it's that
time of year.
Uh July, August, September, uh,the peak of indemnity renewals.
Um, so yeah, uh good time tohave this conversation for sure.
Dr James (03:10):
Let's do it.
Interested to know, and itmight be there's probably this
might have an obvious answer.
I'm gonna ask it anyway.
Why is it that around about nowthere is a peak?
Is it because this is when allthe FDs, or sorry, the well,
yeah, the FDs go into work,right?
And then this is it's like therenewal of the academic year.
It's like a knock-on effectfrom that, right?
Adam (03:31):
Yeah, you've you've got a spot on the um most high most of
them graduated around this timeof year, first job, um, going
into work September, Octobertime.
So there's a few other times ofyear where um there's slight
peaks, January, February.
Um, but other than that, yeah,this is this is peak season.
Dr James (03:51):
Interesting.
There we go.
I'm gonna ask another questionthat might have an obvious
answer, but again, I want to askit anyway, because this is
always at the top of dentists'minds.
Why does it go up so much,almost like exponentially in the
first few years?
The the fee for indemnity, therenewal fee.
Adam, why do dentists typicallyexperience that, at least with
(04:13):
some companies?
Adam (04:14):
Um, well, if we if we're talking uh those who've recently
qualified, um, quite oftenthere's a bit more supervision
around the first couple ofyears, so it's staged, the
premiums increase.
Um, in terms of increasing uhin in general terms, which we
are seeing uh many of theindemnity providers increase
their rates uh year on year, themain factor to that will be
(04:36):
claims.
Um we have seen claims trendson the app and claims costs on
the up over the last, you know,uh well year on year.
So um that's the main driverfor premiums going up
generically, I would guess.
Dr James (04:50):
Got a got a query as well, interest someone for the
audience.
I know that there is a commontheme that litigation is going
up in dentistry, or at leastthere was over the last few
years.
Is that still on the rise or isit kind of leveled off?
Adam (05:05):
Um I would say it's it's not as it's not as on the rise
as it was, say, four or fiveyears ago.
It is leveling off, but claimsclaims are still very costly.
Um, so that's that's that'swhere the issue still lies.
Dr James (05:20):
Yikes, okay, and naturally that's gonna come
through in our indemnity bill asa dentist.
Well, listen, it's a little bitlike this.
If we're gonna have to pay forsomething, let's make sure we're
paying for value.
So let's cut to the chase.
How do us dentists know thatwe're getting a good deal when
it comes to our insurancerenewal or our indemnity?
Adam (05:44):
Well, there's there's a lot of good indemnity providers
out there nowadays in the last10-15 years since 2011 when we
set up uh, you know, you onlyhad three uh indemnity
providers, medical defenceorganizations, and it's it's
kind of moved on quite a bitover the last uh over that
period.
Um I would say you look beyonduh sort of the claims
(06:06):
occurrence, you look beyond thecontract certainty, you look
beyond the 24-7 support, that'sa very minimum, in my opinion,
uh what you should have.
Um you look beyond that, whatelse can that indemnity provider
provide me at my time of need?
Where is that um, you know,something might hit the press?
Do I need PR or reputationprotection?
(06:27):
Um, you know, I'm strugglingwith uh, I don't know, mental
health, or you know, what elsecan this indemnity provider help
me at my time of need?
And I think that's that that'sit really.
Um so yeah, it's getting fairvalue for what you are are
paying for and um making surethat indemnity provider is on on
(06:47):
your side.
Dr James (06:48):
I see.
So as a minimum, those would bethe things that you would
expect.
So that's almost like achecklist.
And am I right in sending notevery obviously we're definitely
not hearing named, but just outof interest, you know, you know
more about the market than me.
It's not always a given thatevery provider provides that
stuff, right?
Adam (07:04):
No, not all providers um offer the occurrence cover, um,
and not all providers providecontract certainty.
Um by contract certainty, Imean an insurance product with
terms and conditions.
Um uh or and you know, most dooffer the 24-7 support, but
again, it that that's the sortof minimum expectation you'd
expect to speak to a dentallegal advisor if you've got a uh
(07:27):
a query or or require advice.
Dr James (07:29):
Interested to know, and I feel like you'll know the
answer to this.
Is there is it a bit of a is Idon't know if this is an urban
myth or not, but some people saythat even when you consult your
indemnity provider over thephone, as in you just have a
query or there's some sort ofsniff of a complaint and you're
speaking to them for advice,that that then means that your
(07:50):
indemnity goes up.
Adam (07:52):
No, um, well, I say I say no, not for us.
Uh we encourage uh individualsto give us a call at the end of
the day.
If we can uh get on tosomething early and stop that
sort of uh going towards a claimor escalating, we want to know
sooner rather than later.
And I know uh there is aproject, uh I think it's called
(08:14):
Project Steer, um, where anumber of the indemnity
providers uh are within thatgroup, and that is one of the
main intentions of it, not topenalize dentists for using the
advice line.
Um so from our perspective,call us as much as you need.
Um we want to help you outearly doors.
Dr James (08:34):
Well, that makes sense actually, now that you said out
loud, because surely thatinvestment of time on the
provider's half, on theprovider's behalf, uh basically
uh will mean that they can thensubsequently avoid more of an
outlay later.
Adam (08:53):
Yeah, 100%.
That's exactly it.
Dr James (08:55):
Makes sense.
Interesting, interesting.
Okay, one thing we have to talkabout because this is a topic
of contention that I still feela lot of dentists don't know
about this.
And certainly for the ones thatdo, they're a little up in arms
about it.
Discretionary versusnon-discretionary cover.
(09:19):
Yeah, maybe it might be nice ifwe had a bit of an explainer as
to what those terms mean, firstof all.
Adam (09:24):
Yeah, of course.
I touched on it um right uhright back at the beginning.
Um, when we first set up in2011, it was uh three
discretionary providers.
Now, discretionary cover ispretty much as it sounds.
Um, it's down to the discretionof the provider whether they
will cover a claim or not.
Um now, I always say, would youinsure your house for fire and
(09:49):
then wait till you've had thefire to find out whether you're
covered or not?
Um you know, uh, would youcover your car?
And then, you know, you have anaccident and it's only at the
point or the time of theaccident you know whether you're
covered or not.
I don't think many of us would.
So with discretionary cover,there's no sort of terms and
conditions, um, there's nofinancial ombudsman service at
(10:12):
the end of it.
So if you if a claim isrepudiated or rejected, then
you've got no rights ofrecourse.
So on the flip side, you havecontract certainty or a contract
of insurance, it has the termsand conditions, uh, it has the
you know, you you complete yourproposal, you say you're doing
X, Y, and Z, they they coverthose for you.
(10:34):
And any exclusions will bethere in black and white.
Um, and I mean exclusions, it'snormally active activities you
haven't declared.
Um so it's and again, if thereare any issues with that claim,
you've got you have got theOmbudsman service and the right
of recourse.
So um for me it's it's prettyobvious insurance or contract of
(10:57):
insurance is the way forward.
Dr James (10:59):
And am I right in saying because I guess what
might be going through somepeople's heads who are listening
is they might be saying, hey,but if I get non-discretionary,
or sorry, if I get discretionarycover, in which case, well,
really it's not even necessarilythe case that they'll give me
cover should there be a claim.
I guess what some people mightassume is that that is cheaper
(11:21):
as a result.
Adam (11:24):
No, no.
Um in some cases, you know, insome cases it'll be more
expensive.
Um yeah, looking at looking atuh all all the indemnity
providers, um, there's not toomuch between them in terms of
what you pay nowadays.
Um there's just different uhtweaks between what they cover
and what they don't.
Dr James (11:44):
I see, so that's not even necessarily the case.
Well, it's good to spell thatout, right?
Because you might assume thatfrom listening.
Adam (11:51):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr James (11:53):
It's a bit like to use a crude analogy, comprehensive
cover for your car versus thirdparty.
The third party is gonna becheaper, right?
But there's less cover.
Uh but it's not even it's noteven quite third party.
It's just it's because at leastthird party you definitely will
get something if someonecrashes into you, is literally
just the case.
Adam (12:11):
There's some providers out there who offer claims made
insurance, uh, which is cheaper.
Um by claims made insurance, itis a con is contract certain
policy, but what it is is if youit's a bit like your car and
home insurance, really.
Um whilst the policy'senforced, your cover's enforced.
Once that policy ends, coverends.
(12:31):
So in the scenario of adentist, you do treatment
yesterday, your policy's inforce.
Um yeah, it expires tomorrow.
If a claim comes in fortreatment performed yesterday
and it's expired in a couple ofdays, you won't be covered.
So that is cheaper.
Obviously, there are ways youcan work around that by renewing
the policy, going elsewhere,getting runoff cover.
(12:54):
But um, yeah, there are cheaperoptions, but I I wouldn't uh
advise taking claims made toinsurance unless you unless you
really need to.
Dr James (13:02):
Interesting.
And you just touched uponsomething that was always a
question in my mind.
Let's say you have a dentistwho is covered their whole
career, and then all of a suddenthey retire, and then let's say
they don't renew their GDC.
I don't know if that makes adifference or not, but let's say
they don't renew their GDC,then let's say a patient like 10
years later makes a claimagainst them, where does that
(13:24):
money come from?
Do they chase the dentist off?
Adam (13:28):
Uh yeah, so if you're on an occurrence policy, um, as
long as uh that policy was inforce at the time of the
treatment, no matter how long inthe future a claim comes in,
you'll be covered.
So it would go back to thatpolicy.
So say a dentist retired in Idon't know, 2015.
Um, they have a claim come innow for treatment performed in
(13:48):
2015, for instance.
As long as they had anoccurrence policy in place, it
should pay out.
Dr James (13:54):
I see.
And let's say they didn't haveoccurrence cover in place.
Would they subsequentlypersonally be liable or would it
be the general practice?
Adam (14:04):
Yeah, unless they've uh unless they've um found any
other arrangements, there thereare things that you can arrange
like runoff cover with theinsurer, but usually that's
payable annually after youretire.
Um some insurers include thatas standard for maybe three
years, five years, ten years.
It depends on the insurer,really.
Um but yeah, if if there was nocover in place, um these law
(14:26):
firms like to chuck mud, sothey'll chuck mud wherever it
sticks, whether that's theindividual dentist, whether
that's the dental practice, orwhat whether that's any other
dentists who have been involvedin the treatment.
So um, yeah.
Dr James (14:39):
Wow.
So they'll they'll just puttheir mind to it and try to find
a way, basically.
Yeah.
I see.
Okay, interesting.
I always had that query in mymind.
I was like, how did that work?
Because you hear aboutvicarious liability.
Adam (14:54):
Yeah.
Dr James (14:55):
But that doesn't matter.
Yeah.
Adam (14:58):
Yeah, that that's where that would come in, yeah.
Um often the name above thedoor will be the dental
practice.
Uh a claim comes in or claimantmakes makes a claim.
The law firm will look toinvolve all parties involved in
in that treatment, usually.
Um, and quite often it'll it'llfall on the individual's
indemnity.
Um, but the vicarious liabilityis there for a number of
(15:20):
reasons.
One, if if they do have uh, youknow, if if they are at fault
in any way in any way thepractice.
Two, if that individual um, andwe do see it, goes back
overseas, we can't find theindemnity cover, or um, you
know, or thirdly, maybe even thecover's expired, or you know,
(15:41):
we touched on it a moment ago,if it was on a claim is made
basis, they have not renewed itor they've not, you know, um,
that that's where the precariousliability might start step in.
Dr James (15:51):
Interesting.
So, Adam, if we had tosummarize everything, if you
were to give everybody who's alistener to this podcast a
checklist of the hot fact thingsthat they hot, hot, hot and
sharp, hot and fast things,sorry, is the word I'm looking
for, things that they can takeaway to their indemnity provider
to make sure that they'recovered and that all the bases
(16:11):
mentioned in this podcast arewell, we we've got those, we've
got those protected, you're likethey're the they're working for
the dentist, or we've got thosein our hands, shall we say?
What would that be?
What would that be?
I know we'll put you on thespotlight there, but I feel like
you should have.
Adam (16:26):
Well, I've touched on uh two or three of them already.
So claims occurrence, first andforemost, do they offer that?
Yes, uh great.
Contract certainty, again,we've we've touched on that.
Uh we've said the 24-7 supportand advice, make sure that you
know, uh, maybe have a look whotheir dental legal advisors are
as well.
Um, you know, there's somereally good dental legal
(16:48):
advisors out there.
There's other things you wantto look at, like um contingent
cover.
And what I mean by contingentcover is there if you have moved
from a discretionary providerto an insurance-backed provider,
um, you and the claim come infor the time you're with a
discretionary provider, um, ifthere was if that discretionary
(17:12):
provider repudiated a claim,you're left a bit in the lurch.
So a number of the insurers,including ourselves, will
provide contingent cover whichwill pick up any claims
repudiated for the period youwith that with that
discretionary provider.
So it just gives you that extrasort of uh security when you're
moving.
Because I know moving from thelikes of uh the MDOs, um, those
(17:34):
who provide that that kind ofcover, sometimes you know you've
been with them for 10, 12 yearsplus.
Um, and it's quite a big jump.
Um, and there's someuncertainty, and I think just
having some extra securityaround that that move is quite
important.
Um what other words, I mean Ithink there's also other things
(17:56):
like what we offer uh 24-7 GPsupport service.
Now, it might not sound much,but it's quite popular with our
members.
Um, if they're real or a memberof their immediate family are
real, they can call up, um, getsome help, get a prescription,
you know, get back to workquicker, even.
Uh, so I mean, it's justlooking at what else they do
(18:16):
around around the indemnity andhow else they can support you at
your time of need.
PR and reputation, what do theydo around that?
Um, we know things do get outinto the press, um, and your
reputation, uh, as you all know,is vital.
So, you know, uh, what else canthey do to support you in that
in that time?
We we've got a PR team who willstep in, help you out, um, and
(18:41):
try and turn that what might bewhich will be negative news into
a sort of a positive spin.
So those kind of things I'dreally look out for.
Dr James (18:50):
That is crazy, right?
That that that can be done, youknow, uh that you can kind of
uh so you how does that work?
Just out of pure curiosity,more than anything else.
Is it that you you releasepress and media outlets that
basically say positive thingsabout the dentist, or you go to
the source and you're like, hey,this isn't on?
I'm just curious.
Adam (19:10):
Yeah, a lot of it is um and it's way above my pay grade
in terms of what they do, but umthey've got PR teams who will
go onto the likes of Google uhand put positive news uh out
there on you and try and italmost try and get that negative
news down um through theranking.
So um yeah, it's it's quiteclever how they do it.
(19:31):
But um yeah, it's it's I Ithink it's a vital thing to
have.
Um some other things are likeand it's it's it's what I think
uh is dentists need really, oror they need to look beyond year
one.
They need to look like whatdoes next year look like, what
does a year after?
Um something we do is weprovide a price guarantee for
(19:53):
three years, uh, you know,subject to not having lots of
claims, for instance.
But um I think that gives youjust the assurance, you know,
I'm I'm paying this much nextthis year, next year it's gonna
be the same the following year.
And as part of that, we'll thengive you a two weeks free cover
next year, four weeks a yearafter.
And I think I think I think forthe type, you know, it's not
(20:14):
it's not a small outlayindemnity.
So I do believe it uh, youknow, you should have some
reward for your loyalty.
So that's one thing which it'sit's just looking at those
additional covers those thoseindemnity providers can offer
you.
Dr James (20:28):
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