June 25, 2026 • 58 mins
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The “go limited at £X” advice gets repeated so often that it starts to sound like a law of nature, but for UK dentists it can be a costly shortcut. We sit down with specialist dental accountant Amman to map out what actually changes when you move from sole trader to limited company, and why the best choice depends on how you earn, how you spend, and what you are building towards.
We start with the plain-English foundations: a sole trader’s profits flow straight into personal tax, while a limited company pays corporation tax first and then you decide how to pay yourself through a director salary and dividends. That opens up planning around National Insurance, dividend tax, and the timing of withdrawals, plus the idea of retained earnings that can stay inside the company for future plans. We also dig into the admin reality in 2026, including Making Tax Digital and why the “limited equals more paperwork” gap is shifting.
Then we get practical. We share three lenses to make the decision: your career path (including NHS versus private work and the NHS pension), your personal situation (outgoings, mortgage plans, partner income, student loan), and your investing goals and risk appetite. Two worked examples show how a younger private associate can benefit from sheltering profits for long-term investing or a practice purchase, while an NHS-heavy dentist close to retirement may be better off staying self-employed. We finish with commonly missed tax-deductible areas, from electric cars and benefit-in-kind to use of home and protection policies, with plenty of caveats on doing things properly.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr James (01:15):
Welcome back to the old chestnut that us dentists
like to bring up from time totime, or pretty much all the
time, actually, which is how weshould structure ourselves from
the point of view of beinglimited or store trader.
And the interesting thing is,it's not just a one and done, it
isn't just something that hasthe same roles consistently year
in, year out.
They actually do change andreflex a little bit as well, and
(01:36):
it can make sense for you to uhswitch back on occasion
depending on your pack setup andyour pack situation, and that's
exactly what we're here to talkabout today.
Limited company versus storetrader.
What makes sense for dentists?
What's new, what's changed,what we need to know and how do
we make this decision as best wepossibly can.
I'm joined today by specialistaccountant to dentist, Mr.
Amman Sakaria.
It's gonna be a fun episode asever.
(01:58):
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Because it can to be blunt, uh,if you get it set up correctly,
(02:58):
you can increase your take-homepay every single year without
any extra work.
You're doing exactly the samething, but it's structured in a
slightly different way.
And maybe that's a good placeto start.
I'm an uh sole trader versuslimited company.
If we just start from the verybasics, what do those actually
mean for people who are brandnew to this stuff, and then
we'll build on that and moveinto the more intricate stuff
(03:19):
with time.
Amman (03:20):
Sure.
Cool.
So self-employed, essentially,you are the business, so the
dental income that you areearning is going to be taxed in
full at the end of the year onceyou deduct your expenses.
So, typically speaking, becauseall of that income is taxed in
that year, there's much less taxplanning that goes into a
(03:43):
self-employed kind of setupcompared to a limited setup.
I would say, secondly, in termsof structure, there is no legal
separation between theindividual and the income that's
being earned.
So if you were ever to be suedor if you were ever to go into
debt, etc., creditors couldliterally come for your personal
assets.
(04:03):
On the flip side, a limitedcompany is a complete separate
legal entity.
So by that, you've basicallycreated a shield in the form of
a limited liability.
So you're not as much in thedanger zone, shall I say, um, in
terms of somebody coming afteryou and your personal assets
(04:24):
being assets being at risk.
Having said that, there's stillno absolute protection, i.e.,
if directors are beingfraudulent, etc., there could
still be scenarios where theirpersonal assets are at risk.
Dr James (04:38):
Sure.
So one benefit is there's alittle bit of extra separation
between your business activitiesand your personal assets, super
high level, of course.
Right, brilliant.
So that's set the scene.
And I guess the next thing tomove on to is at which point
should we begin to thinkactually a limited company might
(04:59):
be the better option for us?
Because we start out as soultraders, of course, as you were
saying, sole traders areself-employed uh by default.
So we really have to make theactive decision as to when it's
suitable to go limited company.
Speaking, maybe speaking purelyfrom the perspective of
associates for the moment.
Amman (05:16):
Yeah, sure.
So from an associate point ofview, as soon as an associate
has finished their foundationyear, so let's say this year,
August 2026, they finished theirfoundation year.
From September, by default,they will go straight into
self-employment.
So any income they earn againis going to be paid into their
account, and they will have tosave a proportion of that for
(05:39):
tax on a self-assessment.
In terms of setting themselvesup, all they would need to do is
register themselves forself-employment on the HMRC
website.
On the flip side, when anindividual does decide to go
towards a limited company, thesetup is relatively similar but
slightly different.
So firstly on company's house,they would need to set up a
(06:01):
limited company.
That would entail variousdifferent dynamics of making
sure you've got the rightshareholders in place, um,
making sure you're the correctdirector.
There's also registered addressand making sure that either you
use your personal address andor you use a practice address,
an accountant's address, etc.
Um generally that is how asetup will look.
(06:24):
In terms of the work involved,there's also a bit of a
difference there.
So when you're self-employed,typically, like I said, all of
your income is taxed afterexpenses, that goes on a
self-assessment at the end ofthe year.
And I think that's wherethere's been obviously the main
shift in the self-employedworld.
The making tax digitalprocesses now come into play,
(06:45):
whereby if your income, so onthe 24-25 tax return, if your
income was over 50k, at thatpoint you then qualified for
making tax digital, which kickedoff from April 26.
If, however, let's just say youwere a again, a foundation year
dentist last year and you cameout in as an associate from
(07:07):
September onwards, it could bethat actually you fell within
the threshold.
So it could be that next yearyou need to start complying with
Making Tax Digital instead.
Secondly, on the limitedcompany side, it's more to do
with bookkeeping, potentiallypayroll, corporation tax
returns, limited companyaccounts.
(07:27):
Generally, there's more workinvolved because there's much
more tax planning that can bethat can be done within a
limited company structure.
Dr James (07:35):
Nice, but I think we were catching up just off camera
before this.
And you were saying that makingtax digital is kind of even
that out, hasn't it, by way ofthe admin burden a little bit
more?
But in your opinion, it's stilla little bit more of an admin
burden to be limited, even giventhe recent making tax digital
changes that have beenimplemented.
Amman (07:54):
Yeah, I mean it's an it's an interesting point, and
obviously it's the first quarterof making tax digital.
So I'm sure in six months' timeI might have a different
answer.
But ultimately, the way that itlooks at the moment is a
self-employed individual who hasto comply with MTD has to
submit quarterly tax returns toHMRC, which is definitely more
(08:15):
than was being done before.
So they'll have four quarterlysubmissions as well as the
end-of-year submission that theyhad anyway.
Now, on a limited company side,it could be less, it could be
more.
I guess it depends on yourrelationship with your
accountant, what kind of stuffyou're up to, and what kind of
communication you have withthem.
(08:35):
For us, typically for most ofour limited companies, we will
do a tax plan for the year.
We'll have ongoing catch-upsjust to make sure that they're
not missing out on any taxplanning advice.
I tend to find that it doesentail a bit more work than the
MTD side.
Dr James (08:50):
Gotcha.
Okay, fine.
Um, but as you say, it comes onyour relationship with your
accountant.
And some accountants uh are notnecessarily as involved by
that, I guess you could say.
So uh yeah, that's for thelistener to decide, really.
Uh, but it is a factor,absolutely, the the the the
admin side of things.
And I guess the main goal ofshifting to a limited company
(09:14):
would be to shelter some of yourincome from taxes.
That's the would I would I beright in saying that that's the
main benefit, or are there otherones out there that don't get
talked about as much?
Amman (09:25):
Well, I think the main one, yes, you can you definitely
in certain circumstances, andI'm sure we'll go through a few
examples, in certaincircumstances you can use a
limited company to save ontaxes.
Um, I think the other benefitsare, of course, limited
liability um and potentiallyutilising a limited company to
(09:45):
invest in other assets, etc.,later down the line as well.
Dr James (09:50):
Makes sense.
But yes, those would be the bigones, just to reiterate that I
know that that might be commonknowledge these days, but just
worth just worth uh mentioningagain.
And obviously, some of the prosof being sole trader, once upon
a time it was the admin burden.
That's a little bit uh less uhor less of a discrepancy there,
should we say, these days.
(10:10):
Uh, but of course, it isimportant to mention that
naturally you're gonna probablywind up paying your accountant
more if you're limited as well.
So your bill uh is gonna behigher too.
Aside from that, yeah.
Amman (10:22):
I mean, obviously, yeah, the the bill will likely be
higher, but also the taxesdiffer in in their nature as
well.
So when you're self-employed,it's typically income tax,
national insurance, potentiallystudent loan on your
self-assessment.
When you're a limited company,firstly the company has to pay
corporation tax on its profits.
You can actually deduct asalary, um, which will be liable
(10:45):
to income tax as well.
That is a tax-deductibleexpense.
You can also take outdividends, which is based on
your retained earnings, which isessentially profit after tax.
Um, and I think the interestingpoint to note there is with
retained earnings, if you'vegot, say, 50k of retained
earnings in your year, profitafter tax, if you take 30k out,
(11:06):
that does not mean that you thenlose that 20k.
That 20k just gets carriedforward to future years.
So what we sometimes see isdental associates will build up
a large retained earnings potthat actually they could take
out later down the line if theywanted to.
Dr James (11:21):
Nice.
And that's important tomention.
And you know one other thing II think doesn't get mentioned
enough as well is that if youlet's say you get 50k into your
personal limb in the scenariowhere you have a limited
company, you're actually able tokeep more of that 50k as money
that is spendable in yourpersonal name versus if you're
(11:42):
self-employed.
Correct me if I'm wrong onthis.
And the reason why is you'repaying dividends tax in the
first example, so you're onlypaying uh 8% on everything
between 12 or 8.5%, I believe itis.
Amman (11:55):
It used to be 8.75, it's now 10.75.
Dr James (11:58):
What?
I was showing my age there,man.
I remember when it was seven afew years ago.
Okay, so you're basicallypaying 10.75 tax on everything
between 12,550,000, right?
Ish, okay.
Um whereas in the example whereyou're self-employed, okay, or
you're a sole trader, you'repaying 20% tax on that.
(12:18):
So if your earnings uh you youget you have less to spend in
your own personal name, but yourtax bill is roughly the same
overall because obviously thedividends come after corporation
tax.
But you're able to keep more ofthat 50 set 50k in your you're
able to spend more of that 50k,basically because you have more
(12:41):
in your own personal name.
Amman (12:42):
Yeah, I think there's kind of two points to that.
One is probably when you lookat it from an overall tax point
of view, the actual tax diffdoesn't differ too much when you
when you actually take it outbecause ultimately you've got to
factor in the corporation taxthat you've paid as well.
But I think what you'reprobably referring to is solely
just looking at that 50k ofpersonal income that you've
earned, the tax is typicallylower because ultimately
(13:06):
dividend tax is lower andthere's no national insurance on
dividends either.
Compared to if you'reself-employed, you would have to
pay class two and class fournational insurance.
Dr James (13:16):
Yeah, exactly.
That's that's what I mean.
So you have because that moneythat you can get into your own
name, in your personal name, isfriggin' gold dust, right?
Because you can spend itwhenever the hell you want.
And it's where you can also getreally whacked on tax past a
certain point.
Amman (13:29):
100%.
And I think even if we just dida quick calc, zero to twelve
and a half K is free, tax-freepersonal allowance.
12.5 to about 50k is roughlyaround 37,700.
That tax at 10%, you're lookingat about 4k of tax you would
pay on your dividends.
So ultimately you've taken out50k and you've only paid tax of
(13:52):
about 4K.
So you're left with 47, 46k ofthe 50k withdrawing.
Dr James (13:57):
Yeah.
That's that's the exact thingthat I'm getting at, right?
You have 47k to spend in yourown personal name, whereas you'd
have much less than that.
You maybe let's call it like40k to spend in your own
personal name if you were selfif you were uh self-employed,
right?
You're still probably payingthe same net amount of tax
overall, right?
Because of the corporationthing, but you have more that's
spendable in your personal name.
I just wanted to highlight thatbecause I think don't people
(14:18):
think I don't think people talkabout that.
Um, but yeah, anyway, cool.
I think we've done.
Um, I think we've coveredeverything that is worth
mentioning on the tax side ofthings, really, when it comes to
those two scenarios.
Amman (14:30):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
I I think the next main pointis then deciding on what whether
firstly whether to go limitedor stay self-employed, but I
guess that is based on a numberof factors.
And I think uh what wementioned obviously before that
we we jumped on the podcast wasactually what I tend to see a
lot, and I think you probablysee as well, James, is somebody
(14:52):
will ask, what level of incomedo I need to earn in order to go
limited company?
Yeah, yeah.
So ultimately we see thatoften, and the answer varies on
a number of factors.
So ultimately, I always say youneed to explore three different
areas within your life.
(15:14):
Firstly, it's your career.
So what stage of your careerare you in?
Have you just come out offoundation year and ultimately
you're not quite sure how muchyou're gonna be earning, you're
still exploring differentpractices, and you're not kind
of sure what ways of workingwork best with you.
In that scenario, the incomeyou're probably gonna have over
(15:36):
the next two to three yearsmight be unpredictable, and you
ultimately you don't even knowif you're gonna specialise in
something, for example.
Whereas on the other side, uhsomebody might have been in
dentistry for say 30 years andthey're coming close to
retirement and they've beenself-employed for 30 years.
That also is interestingbecause if they've been
(15:59):
contributing towards the NHSpension for 30 years, is it
really a good decision to gofully limited and no longer be
able to contribute towards yourNHS pension?
Dr James (16:09):
You'd have to do the math, wouldn't you?
Because even if you do one UDAa year, you get your your top-up
rate, don't you?
Or you get uh uh what's theexact terminology?
Amman (16:19):
You're still classed with uh as uh an NHS, you you still
contribute towards yoursuperannuation, so you're still
within the NHS pension scheme,essentially.
Dr James (16:28):
Yes, and then you get your you you it's CPI plus 1.5%,
the multiple that it increasesby, providing that you're still
active, basically.
Um obviously that uh theobviously that makes way more of
a difference to you the biggeryour pension pot is, but it's a
numbers constant thing.
We're just pointing this stuffout that it's worth knowing
because actually sometimesaccountants don't even know
(16:49):
these sorts of things.
I've seen accountants, I'veseen accountants before who are
not even aware there's a clashof interest between uh your you
know you being able to activelycontribute to the NHS pension
and go unlimited.
Sometimes they're not evenaware, so they're not even gonna
be aware of how um that affectsthe growth of your pension too.
Amman (17:07):
100%.
I mean, we had a case abouttwo, three weeks ago where the
individual has set up a limitedcompany and she had no idea that
she can no longer contributetowards a pension.
And you're absolutely rightthat it is gonna increase by a
certain percentage each year,and the longer you've been
contributing towards it, thebigger your net pensionable
(17:27):
earnings will be.
So those final years are key toactually having the most growth
compound, basic compoundingover years, right?
Dr James (17:36):
They are, they are absolutely, but anyway, I
interrupted there.
I think you were in full flow.
Amman (17:39):
Yeah, no, it's all good.
So the other, obviously, justoff the back of that is within
your career, you need to thinkabout, and this is where limited
companies self-employed, it'smore of the long-term decision.
So you might you might not beable to make the decision today.
It could be where you seeyourself going.
So the NHS versus private splitis also a key factor.
If you're predominantly doingNHS work, then actually you're
(18:02):
getting so much more benefit bycontributing so much from your
early years into the NHS pensioncompared to if you went
straight into private work andyou've never really been in the
NHS pension, you can kind ofdisregard that factor straight
away.
100% type of work again isinteresting.
So if you're a general dentistand you've got a high UDA
(18:23):
contract, again, in thatscenario, firstly you're NHS
based, but secondly, you've gota bit more predictability.
So you can kind of plan thenext two to three years compared
to if you're looking tospecialize, uh the
predictability at least forthose first two or three years
is going to be a lot less.
So typically the easier routeis to stay as you are and see
where you land in two or threeyears' time.
Dr James (18:46):
Yeah, or or worth mentioning that if your
principal is willing, you can ofcourse split your earnings.
Amman (18:52):
Yeah, of course.
So that actually depends.
And again, that's part of thecareer factor, is if you're at a
practice which is a largecorporate, uh Roderick's, for
example, it's much morechallenging for you to go into a
typical hybrid approach wherebythe NHS income is in your
personal name and private incomeis in the limited company name.
(19:14):
Now, it is beneficial for a lotof people to do that because
essentially they've got some ofthe benefits of a limited
company and they've got the NHSpension, but some practices
don't allow it, and mainly thecorporates are the ones that
push back on that.
Dr James (19:28):
Yeah.
Amman (19:29):
Yeah.
Um, and again, within yourcareer, it does income is
definitely a big part to play.
If you're earning 60k a yearversus if you're doing 120k a
year, there's a big differencethere in the actual tax savings
you might achieve for a limitedcompany.
Um 60k, you're probably notgoing to see much difference.
(19:49):
If if not, it might be worse,you might be worse off.
So the income does have a bitof a part to play as well.
Dr James (19:57):
Nice.
Amman (19:58):
Cool.
Second main area I would say isyour personal situation.
So first thing I always tell uhwhen we're having conversations
with leads is ask them whetherhow much they're paying out on a
monthly basis.
What is what does theirlifestyle and bills look like?
Have they got a high mortgage?
(20:18):
Are they planning to getmarried next year so they need a
lot of money?
Are they gonna buy a house inthe very short-term immediate
future?
All of that kind of stuff doesimpact how successful a limited
company structure might be.
Are they married?
If they're married, does theirpartner go to work?
(20:38):
What kind of salary is theirpartner earning?
Do they have a student loan?
So with a student loan,typically anything above around
the 28, 29k mark is taxed atnine, well, I say taxed, 9% of
that income goes towards yourstudent loan repayment.
So if you're earning 100k, agood 70K of that, 9% of that 70K
(20:59):
is going towards your studentloan repayment, of which some of
the course is interest, right?
Um NHS obviously as alongsidethe pension is the maternity
cover.
So if you're looking to go onmaternity leave, that's
something that you should factorin as well.
Um, I would say generally,those are the kind of things
that you need to be looking atfrom a private point of view.
Dr James (21:21):
Nice.
Yeah.
Okay, well, let's listen, thisis all very valuable stuff.
I know that you said that wehad two examples to work through
in which, well, it was justexamples of certain scenarios in
which one or the other can makesense.
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Amman (23:30):
Absolutely.
Just one more factor to think.
So we've got the career, we'vegot the personal situation.
The final thing to think aboutis investing and your risk
appetite.
Are you the type of person whois a bit more of a risk taker or
are you a bit more risk averse?
So, do you, for example, wantto diversify as you grow and you
(23:51):
start to earn more money?
Do you want to diversify intostocks and shares, potentially
buying a property?
Uh is it your goal to own yourown practice one day?
That kind of stuff is alsoreally important because if
you've got, say, a five to10-year goal, that really helps
paint the picture of this is howmuch I'm actually saving by
(24:12):
going limited.
And ultimately, that moneywithin the limited that you do
save could be used to facilitatesome of those purchases later
down the line.
Dr James (24:21):
There you go.
Yeah, oh yeah, thanks forreminding me.
I I remember now you said therewere the three main uh things
that you're going to use todecide that.
So that's that's very useful.
And um, yeah, you want toobviously consider your asset
choice, and then you want toconsider where the asset is
placed by way of the structureof that, whether that's in the
(24:41):
limited company, whether it's inthe personal name, uh whatever
you you decide.
Uh, really, really, reallyworth weighing that up and uh
not ignoring uh the fact thatyou can uh depending on your
situation, um, it can make a lotof sense to actually just take
the money out and put it in yourpersonal name and take the tax
hit a little bit of front, or atleast there's an argument to be
(25:02):
had on that front, uh,particularly if you're using an
ICIN, your plan is to compounduh long term, depends on your
situation as well.
But it's not always better tokeep the money in the limited
company, and you have to reallydecide to yourself.
One of the biggest things todecide to yourself is okay,
cool, how much money am Iactually going to keep in this
limited company after everythingis said and done and paid for?
(25:24):
Uh, because really that's hisprimary purpose is to act as a
tax shelter.
And if you're taking everythingout and investing it, well,
there's less of a reason or anecessity that you might have
one, I guess.
And that can be one of the keythings that you have to decide
is what is the actual goal forthis money.
Whereas if the goal for themoney is to you know shelter it
as much as possible andeventually get a dental
practice, that can be somethingthat makes you lean towards
(25:46):
having a limited company.
Amman (25:48):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think that is the crucialpoint, is sometimes you've got
to think five, 10 years time,where do you want to be and what
do you want to be doing?
If it is that actually you dowant to just build up on your
ISA and you could take theactual extra 20K and you could
earn that personally, you mightbe better off staying
self-employed.
(26:08):
But if you're thinking, I forsure know that I want to buy a
practice in five, 10 years'time, what you're actually doing
is let's say the additional 50kthat you keep within your
company, let's say over a10-year period that gets to
500k, right?
That 500k could then be used topurchase a practice.
The the crucial thing is that500k has not been taxed
(26:32):
personally on you.
Whereas if you had taken themoney out each year, being taxed
on it and then decided I wantto buy a practice is kind of too
late because you've already,well, you can still buy the
practice, but you've alreadybeen taxed each year to get to
that point.
Dr James (26:47):
Yeah, and that's that's that's a huge one.
It's starting with the end inmind, basically, and figuring,
figuring that sort of stuff outbecause obviously that can
expedite things or give you thatmuch more of a cushion whenever
that day comes.
And that's that's a very commonone right there, uh, which can
mean that actually, uh, as we'llcome on to the worked examples
in just a second, it can meanthat even if your earnings are a
(27:09):
lot less than somebody else, itcan make sense for you to go
limited and for them to stay asa sole trader, basically,
depending on what they're doingwith the money.
So it's really not a black andwhite situation.
Amman (27:21):
Yeah, 100%.
I've actually had one otherexample that's come into my mind
of why some people transitionover.
So a lot of people, uh a good10-15 years ago, they they were
buying properties within theirpersonal name.
And obviously, back then therules and regs were completely
different to how they are now.
So when you've got a propertyin your personal name now, you
(27:42):
only get a 20% tax credit.
So if you're within that taxbracket, that 20% tax bracket of
zero to 50k, ultimately there'smade no real difference to you.
But if you're a self-employeddental associate and you're
between, say, 50 to 125k, whichis the next tax bracket at 40%,
(28:03):
you're actually way worse offbecause you cannot deduct the
full mortgage interest on yourself-assessment.
So, what we're finding isdental associates, some of them
with this kind of setup wherethey've got a few practic uh buy
to let's in their own name, itactually is advantageous for
them to go limited companybecause all of a sudden, because
(28:24):
they can now determine how muchsalary and dividends they take
out of the business, if theykeep themselves under the 50k
threshold, they then don't loseout on deduct, they can deduct
all of that mortgage interestessentially.
Dr James (28:38):
Nice, amazing, man.
Very cool.
Okay, cool.
Well, there's some really greatdiscussion there, some really
good food for thought.
And I think this is actuallybuilt on a lot of the previous
content that we've done on SoulTrader versus Limited Company.
In that we've been reallythorough and really
comprehensive and covered a lotof the pros and cons.
Go on.
Amman (28:57):
Yeah, you just cut out there.
You just cut out there, so I'mnot sure if that bit will come
through.
Dr James (29:02):
Uh it should it should come through, it should come
through.
Uh because it records on bothsides, you see, so we should be
fine.
Uh, but yes, anyway, um yeah,just as I was saying a second
ago, we covered that to death.
Uh, long story short, it's alittle bit of a discussion, more
than a black and white thing,but these are a lot of the
parameters that you can use todecide.
And one extra thing that wehave uh which will help you
(29:22):
decide is some of those workedexamples that we were hinting at
earlier.
So maybe now is a good time tojump in with those.
Amman (29:29):
Sure.
So we've got two examples here,and both are made-up scenarios,
just to give the listener anexample of what we what you need
to factor in when making thedecision.
So you've got person A, let'ssay Charlie.
So Charlie earns 10k a monthand he's just started his
career.
(29:49):
So he's he's a couple of yearsout of foundation year.
He's in a fully privatepractice, and he's he's got a
student loan.
So he's graduated, he's got astudent loan.
He's living at home and he'sliving with his parents.
He's also got a sister who iscurrently a student at
university.
On top of that, he's determinedthat actually, because he's
(30:11):
living at home and he will befor the foreseeable, he does not
need much income on a monthlybasis.
He only needs about £2,000 amonth after tax to basically
live and go on holidays, etcetera, all that kind of
disposable income spend onwhatever he feels necessary.
So in that scenario, he alsowell, he also wants to
(30:36):
diversify.
So he wants to invest inproperties, etc.
Now, in that scenario, if youlook at the two different
structures, actually the taxadvantage of a limited company
is so much more.
So he's earning 120k a year.
Now, one of the main thingsthat we've not yet discussed on
is discussed is as soon as yougo over 100,000 pounds in
(30:58):
income, you start to lose aproportion of your personal
allowance.
The personal allowance is12,570 pounds.
So for every pound you go over100,000, you lose 50p of the
personal allowance, whichessentially means if you get
over 125,000 in income, you'vebasically lost all of the 12,500
(31:22):
of personal allowance.
Now he's earning 120k.
So he's still got a smallamount of personal allowance to
play with.
But because he's lost a largeproportion of that personal
allowance, his actual tax rate,so his income tax, his national
insurance, and the student loanrepayment, between 100 to 120k
(31:45):
is 71%.
So basically, on that income,he's paying £14,000 in tax and
he's keeping £6,000.
If you actually look at theoverall tax he paid in that
scenario, he's paid £51,000 intax once you factor in all of
the income tax, nationalinsurance and student loan.
(32:06):
So he's left with £69,000 inhis back pocket after the tax
year's finished.
Now, if you look at it from alimited company point of view,
firstly, he could employ himselfas a director.
So a director is an employee ofthe business and they're
entitled to a salary.
Because his sister is not inwork and she's a student, he
(32:28):
could potentially employ her inthe business.
Now, it has to be legitimateemployment.
So she could help him withadmin-related stuff, she could
help him with social media,potentially helping out on
accounting, accounting and taxqueries, etc.
He could also employ her.
Now, there's two or threebenefits to that.
Firstly, he could pay her herpersonal allowance, which is
(32:50):
tax-free.
So she's not going to get taxedon it.
He's also keeping another 12and a half K within the family
that otherwise would have beenstock in the limited company.
He's got an expense now of25,000, the two salaries put
together, which will save him atleast 19 to 20% in tax, if not
(33:11):
25%.
So 20%, let's just say, is a£5,000 corporation tax saving.
And then finally, because he'sgot two directors on the
payroll, he will also not haveto pay employers national
insurance, which he would havehad to have done if it was just
himself.
On top of that, because he onlyneeds $2,000 a month and he's
(33:33):
getting £1,000 or so from hissalary, the additional $1,000
he'll take out via dividends,which, like we said earlier, is
taxed at a much lower ratecompared to self-employed
income.
So actually, compared to theself-employed group, in this
scenario, he pays corporationtax of 21,000 and income tax of
(33:55):
about 1,300 pound.
So that's a roughly a 30,000pound difference in tax just on
having two different setups forthe same scenario.
Three basically three monthsworth of work, 30k, 10k a month,
about three months worth ofwork that he saved in tax.
Dr James (34:13):
Nice.
Amman (34:14):
Yeah.
Also, he's then got 60k inretained earnings.
And like we said earlier, if hehas got, like we said, that
he's got um an interest ininvesting property, he could
probably put down a deposit onthat for with that 60k if he
wanted to.
And that does require adifferent kind of structure
whereby you move money aroundeither through a loan or
(34:35):
dividends.
Um but ultimately it's it's atax-free way of doing it rather
than taking the 60k out, beingtaxed on it, and then buying
property.
Dr James (34:46):
Yeah, nice.
Yeah, 100%.
Amman (34:48):
Cool.
We've then got person B who'sSarah.
Now, Sarah is a bit more of aworkaholic, so she's earning
12.5k a month, 150k.
So she's earning 30k more thanCharlie is.
She's a general dentist, she'sbeen in the game for 25 years,
(35:08):
and she's probably only got fiveor so years left of work.
Her husband's in work, she'sgot kids who are also employed
there in work.
She's got a large NHS uhtarget, so she's doing 6,500
UDAs at £14 per UDA.
So that is roughly £90,000 forthe year in NHS income, about
(35:33):
60% NHS, and about 40% private.
She also doesn't have a studentloan because she's been paying
it off for 25 years, and she'sgot large monthly outgoings.
So she's got a large mortgageto pay for, she wants to give uh
her grandkids gifts, etc.
etc.
Now, in Sarah's situation,because she probably needs all
(35:55):
of the money each month, sheactually it doesn't make sense
for her to go limited.
Firstly, from an NHS point ofview, she's already been
contributing so much throughoutthe 25 years.
If she went limited, she couldno longer contribute.
Secondly, if you look at itfrom a tax point of view, if she
takes all of the money out ofthe limited company, she ends up
(36:18):
paying 64K in tax, which iscorporation tax plus income tax.
The tax she would pay if shewas self-employed would be 58k.
So there's about a 7,000 pounddifference between self-employed
versus limited, as well as thefact that she'll have additional
fees compared toself-employment if she was
(36:40):
limited.
She'd have probably a bit moreresponsibility, and she would
then obviously no longer be partof the NHS as well.
Dr James (36:49):
So there you go.
It really is, it really is aconversation to be had, and it
doesn't.
But you've just completely thatyou've just demonstrated that
kind of goes out the window,really, uh, when you depend on
your circumstances and what haveyou.
But yeah, interesting food forthought.
(37:11):
And uh thank you once again forcovering this so
comprehensively in today'spodcast because there'll be a
lot of stuff on there that'suseful for the listeners,
particularly with how it'schanged in 2026, which is what
we were referring to uh in someparts earlier.
I mean, you know, one thing Iwanted to ask just to round off
this podcast, which I think willbe super useful.
Everybody's obsessed withtax-deductible expenses, and we
(37:34):
could sit here and we couldrhyme off all the obvious ones
like I don't know, CPD orprofessional registrations and
indemnity and things along thoselines.
How about the ones that mostcommonly get missed, in your
opinion, or your most commonlyreminded people, reminding
people of in your work as anaccountant?
I think those would be the mostuseful ones to talk to over the
(37:54):
time that we have left.
Amman (37:55):
Sure.
So yeah, I'll I'll go throughuh two or three that I think are
the big ones that dentists tendto miss.
Now, I think the first thing Iwould say is whenever I have
these conversations withclients, I would always say that
I will give you all of theinformation and I can show you
and tell you what is taxdeductible and what you can be
(38:16):
putting through the business.
But just because something istax deductible does not mean
that you should do it.
You have to look at it from afull commerciality kind of point
of view.
Yes, you might save two, threegrand in tax by putting a
certain expense through thebusiness, but you still have to
pay 10 grand to put that expensethrough the business.
And could you be utilizing that10,000 pound better elsewhere
(38:40):
or saving it for retirement, forexample?
I think cars is is a is a hugeone.
So the tax savings withspecific cars are massive.
I'll give you an example.
So if you let's just say youhad a hundred K profit in your
limited company at the end ofthe year, and before you get to
(39:02):
that year-end point, you want toreduce that as much as
possible.
Theoretically, what you coulddo is buy a new electric car,
but you would then get a fulltax write-off of the value of
the car.
So let's just say it's ahundred grand electric e-tron
and your profits are 100k.
(39:24):
But that 100K minus the 100Kcapital allowance from the car
reduces your profit to zero.
So you then basically do you'vesaved approximately 20 to 25%
in tax, 20,000, 25,000 pounds.
Now, if you're self-employed,typically a dental associate
(39:46):
won't be doing much businessmileage.
Business mileage doesn't countif for traveling from home to
the practice, it's for outsideof ordinary commuting, so going
to a course, visiting youraccountant, etc.
etc.
So they probably do 10 to 15%of business miles in the year.
Now, with a limited company,you get a full tax write-off.
(40:10):
However, when you'reself-employed, it's proportioned
by the business use.
So if you're only doing 10% ofbusiness mileage, actually
you're not going to get much ofa tax deduction.
And ultimately, self-employeddentists are typically better
off just going down the mileageuh allowance route, which is 45p
(40:31):
the first 10,000 miles and soon.
I think the other thing to notethere is obviously if you buy a
car, it's it's a massiveoutflow of cash.
The other side of it isleasing.
So with leasing, it it can varydepending on the emissions of
(40:51):
the car.
If you've got a fully uh zeroemissions car, you will be able
to deduct 100% of those monthlycosts.
If, however, it's got over 50grams per kilometer for CO2,
then you can you get a 15%disallowance.
So essentially you can onlydeduct 85%.
I think, James, one of theinteresting points here is
(41:17):
typically an outflow of cash of100k is is quite substantial.
And most associates probablywouldn't want to do that.
If, however, you are leasingand the lease term implies that
the car is going to be yours atthe end of the five-year term,
(41:37):
you can accelerate those capitalallowances.
So you could theoretically getthe full capital allowance
deduction of the value of thecar if it's a new electric car
that you're leasing, even thoughyou're paying for it on a
monthly basis.
Yeah.
So for example, let's sayyou're paying £500 a month,
(41:59):
£6,000 for the year.
If the value of the car is 80K,you would get that, and it's a
new electric car that you'releasing with the view that
actually, as per the term, isgoing to be yours at the end of
the five years, you would stillget that full capital allowance
deduction at the start ratherthan it being spread over a
period of time.
Dr James (42:20):
Cool.
I I'm just trying to get myhead around that.
So uh you would get the fullcapital allowance at the start
of the just the entirety of yourtax bill, like the other tax
that you had to pay.
I'm just not quite sure howthat works.
Amman (42:36):
Yeah, so essentially, let's just say you've got 100k
of profit, and the first optionwas you buy a new electric car
for 100k, it reduces your profitby 100,000 pounds, you've then
got zero profit, you've then gotzero tax.
Dr James (42:50):
Yeah.
Amman (42:51):
The other option is if you lease it.
Now, if you lease it, you'renot buying the car by via cash,
you're basically making monthlyinstalments over, say, 60
months, five-year period, and incertain circumstances you will
own the car at the end of thefive years, in others you won't.
Dr James (43:08):
Yeah.
Amman (43:08):
If the term and the agreement is that you own that
car at the end of the fiveyears, instead of the monthly
deductions being allowable, youactually get the full capital
out of the car in the firstyear.
Dr James (43:24):
Yeah, it just it just seems like so you get a huge uh
allowance off your tax bill upfront, basically.
Yes, essentially that thatsounds like it shouldn't be the
case, but it obviously is right.
Amman (43:37):
It is because essentially what you're saying is that you
you you basically own that car,it's gonna be yours.
You just pay the payment termsare different compared to if
you're paying.
Sounds like a massive hack.
Dr James (43:49):
So basically, in other words, what you're saying is
that if your company makes ahundred grand, you're gonna be
you're gonna owe zerocorporation, and the car's worth
a hundred grand and you'repaying that off over however
many years, you're gonna payzero corporation tax, okay, but
you're gonna have all thatliquid cash in your bank
account, okay, uh, and only bepaying 500 of it each month,
(44:10):
which you're gonna havesubsequent cash flow to help
offset anyway.
Of course.
That's why I couldn'tunderstand it because I was
like, is that true?
Yeah, it just sounds too goodto be true, but that's actually
ridiculous.
Amman (44:21):
It's true, and it is a hack.
I think what you just need tobe mindful of is yes, you don't
have to make uh a massive cashuh payment in that first year,
but more than likely, or itdepending on the term, there
might be interest on it, right?
So over the course of the fiveyears, you probably will pay
more than 100k for the car.
Um, but you've got that fullfirst year deduction rather than
(44:45):
spreading it.
Dr James (44:46):
Do you get the 100k plus interest or just 100k?
Amman (44:50):
Um that's a good question.
I think you would probably beyou'd get the interest as well
because it's it's um yeah, youwould get the interest as well.
Dr James (45:00):
So the car is worth 100k, but you get 107k, for
example, tax write-offbasically.
Amman (45:05):
Yeah, that's right.
Dr James (45:07):
Okay, that sounds really good.
Ultimately thinking if I get anelectric car die unleashed.
Here we go.
Holy
Amman (45:15):
Yeah, exactly.
I think that it's important tomention that there are
disadvantages to it as well.
So this is where I say thatactually it's not all about yes,
I've got a massive taxdeduction in the first year.
It's also looking at the biggerpicture.
So firstly, let's just say youdo buy that car for 100k in the
(45:36):
first year.
You've got the write-off.
That car is now valued at zeroon your capital allowances pool.
So when you come to sell thatcar, let's just say you sell it
for 70k in four years' time.
That 70k compared to what it'svalued on your sorry, your
(45:56):
capital allowances pool shows a70k profit.
That then goes onto yourcorporation tax return, and you
then have to pay corporation taxon that 70k.
Dr James (46:07):
Really?
Okay.
Well, I can deal with thatbecause I'm paying, I'm still
paying less corporation taxoverall, right?
Amman (46:15):
You are, but then also this is where dentists, which is
it's a it's a good way to thinkabout it, but you also need to
think about the car itself.
So am I buying a car that'sgonna depreciate so much that
actually I might not I mightsave on taxes, but I'm gonna
lose in real term because thecash value is a lot less.
So you might buy a car for 100kand you sell it in four years.
(46:39):
And let's just say electriccars, they've not been great at
retaining their value.
So let's just say for thiscalc, it's 50k when you come to
sell it.
Yes, you'll pay less taxbecause the 50k profit is is
lower than 100k profit, butyou've also lost the 50k that
you've already paid for the car,which is the depreciation.
Dr James (47:01):
You the the car whizes out there tell me, well,
electric cars is gonna beharder, but if you're really
smart and you know your cars,you can get certain ones that
appreciate as well.
I'm told anyway, that's whereyou have to be a real whiz with
your cars.
I don't know if that applies toelectric cars though.
Uh because um, yeah, well,they're just completely
different from um, you know,traditional internal combustion
(47:24):
engines, aren't they?
Uh so I don't actually know asthe answer in that one, but I'm
just sharing that out loudbecause I have heard people say
that to me before, and it'slike, ah, and that's not you
know, that only applies if youaren't clever with the cars that
you're buying, right?
Like if you get like certainlimited edition models and stuff
like that, you can drive themand they still appreciate in
value, I'm told, apparently.
Amman (47:42):
Yeah, but I only know that for certain like Porsche
9-11s, etc.
So I'll have to think aboutthat.
Dr James (47:49):
Yeah, I don't know if it applies in in this example to
electric cars.
And just one quick questionbecause we should really move
on, because we've talked aboutthis a lot, although it is very
interesting.
Uh, is the car in the company'sname or your name?
It's in the company's name,right?
Amman (48:01):
It will be in the company's name, yes.
Dr James (48:03):
Um you can drive it as much as you want in a personal
sense.
Amman (48:06):
So, this is the other slight disadvantage.
Now, if you buy if you buy acar through the limited company,
there's a very high chance thatyou're not going to be just
using it for business purposes.
So there will be a personalusage for that car, which is
basically you as a directorearning a benefit from the
business.
That benefit is called abenefit in kind, and that would
(48:28):
go onto a benefit in kind P11Dform, and you would essentially
have to pay tax at your marginalrate.
So let's just say you're in thehigher tax bracket, you would
have to pay 40% tax on the valueof that benefit.
Now, the value of that benefitis determined by a number of
factors.
(48:48):
One is list price, so the listprice of the car.
Second is any add-ons extrasthat you've paid, then minus any
personal contributions thathave been made.
That figure is then applied toa percentage, and the percentage
that it's applied to isdependent on the emissions of
the car.
So if it's a fully electriccar, it could be four, four
(49:10):
percent, around the four or fivepercent.
If it's a uh a pure guzzler,want of a better word, it's 37%.
So all of a sudden, let's justsay the car's valued at 100K, 4%
of 100k, you're only adding4,000 pounds onto that onto that
tax return.
You need to pay 40% of that4,000 pound, which works out to
(49:34):
be about, let's just say, justunder £2,000.
As opposed to a car that's veryhigh in emissions and it's 37%.
Now you're adding £37,000 ontothat P11D, and you have to pay
40% on the £37,000.
Dr James (49:50):
Nice.
Yeah, I get it.
I get it.
Yeah, fine, cool.
Anyway, I sense there'sprobably more to that than what
we can we can cover today.
Maybe we should rattle through.
You said there were threereally cool tax-deductible uh
things we should talk about.
Cars is one of them.
Amman (50:03):
Yeah, I think the other one is use of home allowance.
So, use of home is another goodway for, and I must stress
again, it's different forself-employed versus limited
company.
When you're self-employed, youtypically get about £10 a month
that you can deduct on yourself-assessment.
So about £120 give or take.
It depends on the number ofhours you're working from home
(50:26):
when you're when you'reself-employed.
Now, when you're a limitedcompany, you've got two or three
options, but two main options.
The first option is you just gowith the standard allowance, no
questions asked.
And that's six pounds a week,about £312 for the year.
The second option is where youactually formalize some kind of
(50:49):
rental agreement betweenyourself as the individual and
the limited company.
And in that scenario, whatwould happen is let's just say
you've got um a two-bed flat andyou're renting it out, and it's
got two bedrooms, it's got akitchen diner, and it's got a
(51:10):
couple of bathrooms, forexample, lawn suite and an a
main bathroom.
What we would do is we wouldlook at a calculation of how
much rent you're paying, whatyour council tax is, all of the
bills in terms of gas, electric,internet, etc.
We would then add that up on ain terms of a monthly cost.
(51:30):
We would then apply aproportion to that.
So if you're working in one ofthe bedrooms and the bathrooms
don't count within thecalculation.
But let's say you've gotkitchen diner and you've got two
bedrooms in the flat.
So that's one-third of yourliving space that you're working
in.
So let's just say the totalcost for the month are 3k.
(51:53):
You could then apply a third tothat number, which is £1,000 a
month.
You then apply anotherpercentage to it, which is how
often you are working in theflat, which could be 10%, 15%.
It's not going to be 50, 60%,because obviously you're in
practice most of the time.
(52:14):
That figure that you then workout.
So let's just say it's 15% is£150 a month.
£150 a month across a 12-monthperiod is £1,800.
Now, what you could do isfirstly you could deduct that as
a legitimate business expensethrough the limited company.
(52:36):
So you get corporation taxsavings between 19 to 25%.
Secondly, the business will oweyou that money back from the
limited company tax-free via adirector's loan account.
Thirdly, you're personally alsoearning income, right?
I.e.
the limited company is havingto pay you £150 a month in order
(53:01):
for you to basically work, inorder for the business to work
in this premises.
That should go on your taxreturn as £1,800 rental income.
But you can offset that becausethe £1,800 is based on your
actual expenses anyway.
So you've actually put it onyour tax return, but the tax the
(53:23):
taxable income is zero.
So you don't actually get taxedon it.
But also on yourself-assessment, you don't get
taxed on it.
Dr James (53:30):
Nice.
Okay, so this can this can becalled this can add up, right?
Amman (53:36):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, the slight caveatagain, just like with the cars,
there's always a caveat, is ifthere's a couple of
stipulations.
Firstly, if you're renting, youyou should probably check with
your landlord that they arehappy with the situation.
If there is some kind ofagreement in place, then yeah,
(53:56):
absolutely go for it.
But if there's not, that'swhere it can get a bit of a bit
sticky.
If, however, you're you're notrenting and it's a mortgage and
it's your own property, there'salso a tax implication there.
So if you were to sell aprimary residence, i.e., the
house you're living in,typically speaking, when you
(54:16):
come to sell it, there's no tax,then there's no capital gains,
it's your primary residence.
However, if HMRC argue thatactually there's part of that
house has been used for abusiness, some capital gains
might be due on that propertywhen you come to sell it.
Dr James (54:33):
Interesting.
Amman (54:34):
So the way that you could kind of get around it is you
put up a contract between thebusiness and yourself, whereby
there's a non-exclusive use ofany room at any particular time.
Dr James (54:46):
Right.
Amman (54:47):
But I would always say that that's the kind of advice
that you really need to speak toyour accountant about.
And two, you might even need asolicitor, for example, to draft
a contract and make sure it isproper.
Dr James (54:57):
Gotcha.
So providing your landlordagrees to it, it's way more
easier if you're a renter,right?
If they agree to yeah, makessense.
Okay.
Um very valuable stuff.
Uh you know what?
We should probably do a podcaston exactly all of this stuff at
some stage.
But I'm gonna I'm conscious wesaid we'd go for the hat trick,
and we've done two out of threenow, and we could probably talk
(55:19):
more on those.
What was the third one?
Amman (55:21):
Yeah, I mean, there's so many smaller ones like mobiles,
trivial benefits, etc., etc.
I think the other ones thatdentists tend to miss is the
kind of advice that James, youwould probably be giving to
dental associates through theday.
So the pension side, the incomeprotection, the relevant life
(55:42):
cover, those kinds of costs,whilst what I tend to see is
obviously a lot of our dentalassociates, especially our
client base, is is younger,right?
So they don't tend to look atthe relevant life cover as much.
They don't really look at theincome protection.
They always kind of kick thecan down the road and say, we
(56:02):
will have a look at that infive, 10 years' time.
But ultimately, firstly,they're tax deductible.
Secondly, it's great to havethose kind of policies in place
because ultimately, let's justsay you are off work for a
three-month period and you'rethe director and shareholder of
(56:23):
your business, all of a suddenyour business has gone from $8,
$12, $15k a month to zerobecause you're earning no
income.
If you've got a policy likeincome protection in place,
firstly, it's allowable.
Secondly, you will then get apayout for those periods of time
where you're not working.
I don't know if you want tojump into that, James.
Dr James (56:44):
You know what?
You know what I think we shoulddo.
Is like I say, I'm just 2%conscious this podcast is like
15 minutes long.
Now let's let's leave thatwhere it is in terms of it being
something that can signpostpeople to start thinking about
the three most important thingsthat people miss.
And then what we can do is wecan make a follow-up podcast uh
(57:05):
which probably covers thatbecause you could probably talk
for like maybe 10, 15, 20minutes and all the various ways
people can do that.
But uh Amman, I just wanted tothank you for your time today.
That was that was literallygreat, man.
Like there's there's a lot ofstuff in there.
If anybody wants to reach outto you off the back of what we
said today, how are they bestoff finding you?
Amman (57:22):
Yeah, I mean, obviously they can they can obviously
reach out to yourself, they canalso uh go on our website, so
www.capitalelevation.
So that's c a p I t a lelevation, e-l-e v A T I O N dot
co.uk.
Or you can drop me an email,and that's Amman.
So that's alpha mike mike alphanovember at capital C A P I T A
(57:46):
L Elevation, E-L-E-V-A-T-I-O Ndot Co.uk.
Dr James (57:51):
Nice.
Or it's important to mentionthat you can also find Amman on
the Dentists Who InvestFacebook group, should you so
wish as well.
That's Amman Starcaria.
In the meantime, Amman, thanksso much for your time and wisdom
today.
Hope you have a great Fridayand great weekend, and we'll see
each other soon.
Amman (58:05):
Absolutely.
Welcome back to the old chestnut that us dentists
like to bring up from time totime, or pretty much all the
time, actually, which is how weshould structure ourselves from
the point of view of beinglimited or store trader.
And the interesting thing is,it's not just a one and done, it
isn't just something that hasthe same roles consistently year
in, year out.
They actually do change andreflex a little bit as well, and
(01:36):
it can make sense for you to uhswitch back on occasion
depending on your pack setup andyour pack situation, and that's
exactly what we're here to talkabout today.
Limited company versus storetrader.
What makes sense for dentists?
What's new, what's changed,what we need to know and how do
we make this decision as best wepossibly can.
I'm joined today by specialistaccountant to dentist, Mr.
Amman Sakaria.
It's gonna be a fun episode asever.
(01:58):
As ever, you can claim your CPDfor this episode within the
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Smart Money Members Club alsoincludes multiple mini courses
and webinar series on financefor dentists, including how to
become as tax-efficient aspossible, as well as
understanding investing.
All of this content counts asverifiable CPD, and you can
(02:18):
download your certificates thereand then on completion of each
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In addition to this, we alsoinclude a whopping 10% discount
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members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
verifiable CPD for this episode.
Because it can to be blunt, uh,if you get it set up correctly,
(02:58):
you can increase your take-homepay every single year without
any extra work.
You're doing exactly the samething, but it's structured in a
slightly different way.
And maybe that's a good placeto start.
I'm an uh sole trader versuslimited company.
If we just start from the verybasics, what do those actually
mean for people who are brandnew to this stuff, and then
we'll build on that and moveinto the more intricate stuff
(03:19):
with time.
Amman (03:20):
Sure.
Cool.
So self-employed, essentially,you are the business, so the
dental income that you areearning is going to be taxed in
full at the end of the year onceyou deduct your expenses.
So, typically speaking, becauseall of that income is taxed in
that year, there's much less taxplanning that goes into a
(03:43):
self-employed kind of setupcompared to a limited setup.
I would say, secondly, in termsof structure, there is no legal
separation between theindividual and the income that's
being earned.
So if you were ever to be suedor if you were ever to go into
debt, etc., creditors couldliterally come for your personal
assets.
(04:03):
On the flip side, a limitedcompany is a complete separate
legal entity.
So by that, you've basicallycreated a shield in the form of
a limited liability.
So you're not as much in thedanger zone, shall I say, um, in
terms of somebody coming afteryou and your personal assets
(04:24):
being assets being at risk.
Having said that, there's stillno absolute protection, i.e.,
if directors are beingfraudulent, etc., there could
still be scenarios where theirpersonal assets are at risk.
Dr James (04:38):
Sure.
So one benefit is there's alittle bit of extra separation
between your business activitiesand your personal assets, super
high level, of course.
Right, brilliant.
So that's set the scene.
And I guess the next thing tomove on to is at which point
should we begin to thinkactually a limited company might
(04:59):
be the better option for us?
Because we start out as soultraders, of course, as you were
saying, sole traders areself-employed uh by default.
So we really have to make theactive decision as to when it's
suitable to go limited company.
Speaking, maybe speaking purelyfrom the perspective of
associates for the moment.
Amman (05:16):
Yeah, sure.
So from an associate point ofview, as soon as an associate
has finished their foundationyear, so let's say this year,
August 2026, they finished theirfoundation year.
From September, by default,they will go straight into
self-employment.
So any income they earn againis going to be paid into their
account, and they will have tosave a proportion of that for
(05:39):
tax on a self-assessment.
In terms of setting themselvesup, all they would need to do is
register themselves forself-employment on the HMRC
website.
On the flip side, when anindividual does decide to go
towards a limited company, thesetup is relatively similar but
slightly different.
So firstly on company's house,they would need to set up a
(06:01):
limited company.
That would entail variousdifferent dynamics of making
sure you've got the rightshareholders in place, um,
making sure you're the correctdirector.
There's also registered addressand making sure that either you
use your personal address andor you use a practice address,
an accountant's address, etc.
Um generally that is how asetup will look.
(06:24):
In terms of the work involved,there's also a bit of a
difference there.
So when you're self-employed,typically, like I said, all of
your income is taxed afterexpenses, that goes on a
self-assessment at the end ofthe year.
And I think that's wherethere's been obviously the main
shift in the self-employedworld.
The making tax digitalprocesses now come into play,
(06:45):
whereby if your income, so onthe 24-25 tax return, if your
income was over 50k, at thatpoint you then qualified for
making tax digital, which kickedoff from April 26.
If, however, let's just say youwere a again, a foundation year
dentist last year and you cameout in as an associate from
(07:07):
September onwards, it could bethat actually you fell within
the threshold.
So it could be that next yearyou need to start complying with
Making Tax Digital instead.
Secondly, on the limitedcompany side, it's more to do
with bookkeeping, potentiallypayroll, corporation tax
returns, limited companyaccounts.
(07:27):
Generally, there's more workinvolved because there's much
more tax planning that can bethat can be done within a
limited company structure.
Dr James (07:35):
Nice, but I think we were catching up just off camera
before this.
And you were saying that makingtax digital is kind of even
that out, hasn't it, by way ofthe admin burden a little bit
more?
But in your opinion, it's stilla little bit more of an admin
burden to be limited, even giventhe recent making tax digital
changes that have beenimplemented.
Amman (07:54):
Yeah, I mean it's an it's an interesting point, and
obviously it's the first quarterof making tax digital.
So I'm sure in six months' timeI might have a different
answer.
But ultimately, the way that itlooks at the moment is a
self-employed individual who hasto comply with MTD has to
submit quarterly tax returns toHMRC, which is definitely more
(08:15):
than was being done before.
So they'll have four quarterlysubmissions as well as the
end-of-year submission that theyhad anyway.
Now, on a limited company side,it could be less, it could be
more.
I guess it depends on yourrelationship with your
accountant, what kind of stuffyou're up to, and what kind of
communication you have withthem.
(08:35):
For us, typically for most ofour limited companies, we will
do a tax plan for the year.
We'll have ongoing catch-upsjust to make sure that they're
not missing out on any taxplanning advice.
I tend to find that it doesentail a bit more work than the
MTD side.
Dr James (08:50):
Gotcha.
Okay, fine.
Um, but as you say, it comes onyour relationship with your
accountant.
And some accountants uh are notnecessarily as involved by
that, I guess you could say.
So uh yeah, that's for thelistener to decide, really.
Uh, but it is a factor,absolutely, the the the the
admin side of things.
And I guess the main goal ofshifting to a limited company
(09:14):
would be to shelter some of yourincome from taxes.
That's the would I would I beright in saying that that's the
main benefit, or are there otherones out there that don't get
talked about as much?
Amman (09:25):
Well, I think the main one, yes, you can you definitely
in certain circumstances, andI'm sure we'll go through a few
examples, in certaincircumstances you can use a
limited company to save ontaxes.
Um, I think the other benefitsare, of course, limited
liability um and potentiallyutilising a limited company to
(09:45):
invest in other assets, etc.,later down the line as well.
Dr James (09:50):
Makes sense.
But yes, those would be the bigones, just to reiterate that I
know that that might be commonknowledge these days, but just
worth just worth uh mentioningagain.
And obviously, some of the prosof being sole trader, once upon
a time it was the admin burden.
That's a little bit uh less uhor less of a discrepancy there,
should we say, these days.
(10:10):
Uh, but of course, it isimportant to mention that
naturally you're gonna probablywind up paying your accountant
more if you're limited as well.
So your bill uh is gonna behigher too.
Aside from that, yeah.
Amman (10:22):
I mean, obviously, yeah, the the bill will likely be
higher, but also the taxesdiffer in in their nature as
well.
So when you're self-employed,it's typically income tax,
national insurance, potentiallystudent loan on your
self-assessment.
When you're a limited company,firstly the company has to pay
corporation tax on its profits.
You can actually deduct asalary, um, which will be liable
(10:45):
to income tax as well.
That is a tax-deductibleexpense.
You can also take outdividends, which is based on
your retained earnings, which isessentially profit after tax.
Um, and I think the interestingpoint to note there is with
retained earnings, if you'vegot, say, 50k of retained
earnings in your year, profitafter tax, if you take 30k out,
(11:06):
that does not mean that you thenlose that 20k.
That 20k just gets carriedforward to future years.
So what we sometimes see isdental associates will build up
a large retained earnings potthat actually they could take
out later down the line if theywanted to.
Dr James (11:21):
Nice.
And that's important tomention.
And you know one other thing II think doesn't get mentioned
enough as well is that if youlet's say you get 50k into your
personal limb in the scenariowhere you have a limited
company, you're actually able tokeep more of that 50k as money
that is spendable in yourpersonal name versus if you're
(11:42):
self-employed.
Correct me if I'm wrong onthis.
And the reason why is you'repaying dividends tax in the
first example, so you're onlypaying uh 8% on everything
between 12 or 8.5%, I believe itis.
Amman (11:55):
It used to be 8.75, it's now 10.75.
Dr James (11:58):
What?
I was showing my age there,man.
I remember when it was seven afew years ago.
Okay, so you're basicallypaying 10.75 tax on everything
between 12,550,000, right?
Ish, okay.
Um whereas in the example whereyou're self-employed, okay, or
you're a sole trader, you'repaying 20% tax on that.
(12:18):
So if your earnings uh you youget you have less to spend in
your own personal name, but yourtax bill is roughly the same
overall because obviously thedividends come after corporation
tax.
But you're able to keep more ofthat 50 set 50k in your you're
able to spend more of that 50k,basically because you have more
(12:41):
in your own personal name.
Amman (12:42):
Yeah, I think there's kind of two points to that.
One is probably when you lookat it from an overall tax point
of view, the actual tax diffdoesn't differ too much when you
when you actually take it outbecause ultimately you've got to
factor in the corporation taxthat you've paid as well.
But I think what you'reprobably referring to is solely
just looking at that 50k ofpersonal income that you've
earned, the tax is typicallylower because ultimately
(13:06):
dividend tax is lower andthere's no national insurance on
dividends either.
Compared to if you'reself-employed, you would have to
pay class two and class fournational insurance.
Dr James (13:16):
Yeah, exactly.
That's that's what I mean.
So you have because that moneythat you can get into your own
name, in your personal name, isfriggin' gold dust, right?
Because you can spend itwhenever the hell you want.
And it's where you can also getreally whacked on tax past a
certain point.
Amman (13:29):
100%.
And I think even if we just dida quick calc, zero to twelve
and a half K is free, tax-freepersonal allowance.
12.5 to about 50k is roughlyaround 37,700.
That tax at 10%, you're lookingat about 4k of tax you would
pay on your dividends.
So ultimately you've taken out50k and you've only paid tax of
(13:52):
about 4K.
So you're left with 47, 46k ofthe 50k withdrawing.
Dr James (13:57):
Yeah.
That's that's the exact thingthat I'm getting at, right?
You have 47k to spend in yourown personal name, whereas you'd
have much less than that.
You maybe let's call it like40k to spend in your own
personal name if you were selfif you were uh self-employed,
right?
You're still probably payingthe same net amount of tax
overall, right?
Because of the corporationthing, but you have more that's
spendable in your personal name.
I just wanted to highlight thatbecause I think don't people
(14:18):
think I don't think people talkabout that.
Um, but yeah, anyway, cool.
I think we've done.
Um, I think we've coveredeverything that is worth
mentioning on the tax side ofthings, really, when it comes to
those two scenarios.
Amman (14:30):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
I I think the next main pointis then deciding on what whether
firstly whether to go limitedor stay self-employed, but I
guess that is based on a numberof factors.
And I think uh what wementioned obviously before that
we we jumped on the podcast wasactually what I tend to see a
lot, and I think you probablysee as well, James, is somebody
(14:52):
will ask, what level of incomedo I need to earn in order to go
limited company?
Yeah, yeah.
So ultimately we see thatoften, and the answer varies on
a number of factors.
So ultimately, I always say youneed to explore three different
areas within your life.
(15:14):
Firstly, it's your career.
So what stage of your careerare you in?
Have you just come out offoundation year and ultimately
you're not quite sure how muchyou're gonna be earning, you're
still exploring differentpractices, and you're not kind
of sure what ways of workingwork best with you.
In that scenario, the incomeyou're probably gonna have over
(15:36):
the next two to three yearsmight be unpredictable, and you
ultimately you don't even knowif you're gonna specialise in
something, for example.
Whereas on the other side, uhsomebody might have been in
dentistry for say 30 years andthey're coming close to
retirement and they've beenself-employed for 30 years.
That also is interestingbecause if they've been
(15:59):
contributing towards the NHSpension for 30 years, is it
really a good decision to gofully limited and no longer be
able to contribute towards yourNHS pension?
Dr James (16:09):
You'd have to do the math, wouldn't you?
Because even if you do one UDAa year, you get your your top-up
rate, don't you?
Or you get uh uh what's theexact terminology?
Amman (16:19):
You're still classed with uh as uh an NHS, you you still
contribute towards yoursuperannuation, so you're still
within the NHS pension scheme,essentially.
Dr James (16:28):
Yes, and then you get your you you it's CPI plus 1.5%,
the multiple that it increasesby, providing that you're still
active, basically.
Um obviously that uh theobviously that makes way more of
a difference to you the biggeryour pension pot is, but it's a
numbers constant thing.
We're just pointing this stuffout that it's worth knowing
because actually sometimesaccountants don't even know
(16:49):
these sorts of things.
I've seen accountants, I'veseen accountants before who are
not even aware there's a clashof interest between uh your you
know you being able to activelycontribute to the NHS pension
and go unlimited.
Sometimes they're not evenaware, so they're not even gonna
be aware of how um that affectsthe growth of your pension too.
Amman (17:07):
100%.
I mean, we had a case abouttwo, three weeks ago where the
individual has set up a limitedcompany and she had no idea that
she can no longer contributetowards a pension.
And you're absolutely rightthat it is gonna increase by a
certain percentage each year,and the longer you've been
contributing towards it, thebigger your net pensionable
(17:27):
earnings will be.
So those final years are key toactually having the most growth
compound, basic compoundingover years, right?
Dr James (17:36):
They are, they are absolutely, but anyway, I
interrupted there.
I think you were in full flow.
Amman (17:39):
Yeah, no, it's all good.
So the other, obviously, justoff the back of that is within
your career, you need to thinkabout, and this is where limited
companies self-employed, it'smore of the long-term decision.
So you might you might not beable to make the decision today.
It could be where you seeyourself going.
So the NHS versus private splitis also a key factor.
If you're predominantly doingNHS work, then actually you're
(18:02):
getting so much more benefit bycontributing so much from your
early years into the NHS pensioncompared to if you went
straight into private work andyou've never really been in the
NHS pension, you can kind ofdisregard that factor straight
away.
100% type of work again isinteresting.
So if you're a general dentistand you've got a high UDA
(18:23):
contract, again, in thatscenario, firstly you're NHS
based, but secondly, you've gota bit more predictability.
So you can kind of plan thenext two to three years compared
to if you're looking tospecialize, uh the
predictability at least forthose first two or three years
is going to be a lot less.
So typically the easier routeis to stay as you are and see
where you land in two or threeyears' time.
Dr James (18:46):
Yeah, or or worth mentioning that if your
principal is willing, you can ofcourse split your earnings.
Amman (18:52):
Yeah, of course.
So that actually depends.
And again, that's part of thecareer factor, is if you're at a
practice which is a largecorporate, uh Roderick's, for
example, it's much morechallenging for you to go into a
typical hybrid approach wherebythe NHS income is in your
personal name and private incomeis in the limited company name.
(19:14):
Now, it is beneficial for a lotof people to do that because
essentially they've got some ofthe benefits of a limited
company and they've got the NHSpension, but some practices
don't allow it, and mainly thecorporates are the ones that
push back on that.
Dr James (19:28):
Yeah.
Amman (19:29):
Yeah.
Um, and again, within yourcareer, it does income is
definitely a big part to play.
If you're earning 60k a yearversus if you're doing 120k a
year, there's a big differencethere in the actual tax savings
you might achieve for a limitedcompany.
Um 60k, you're probably notgoing to see much difference.
(19:49):
If if not, it might be worse,you might be worse off.
So the income does have a bitof a part to play as well.
Dr James (19:57):
Nice.
Amman (19:58):
Cool.
Second main area I would say isyour personal situation.
So first thing I always tell uhwhen we're having conversations
with leads is ask them whetherhow much they're paying out on a
monthly basis.
What is what does theirlifestyle and bills look like?
Have they got a high mortgage?
(20:18):
Are they planning to getmarried next year so they need a
lot of money?
Are they gonna buy a house inthe very short-term immediate
future?
All of that kind of stuff doesimpact how successful a limited
company structure might be.
Are they married?
If they're married, does theirpartner go to work?
(20:38):
What kind of salary is theirpartner earning?
Do they have a student loan?
So with a student loan,typically anything above around
the 28, 29k mark is taxed atnine, well, I say taxed, 9% of
that income goes towards yourstudent loan repayment.
So if you're earning 100k, agood 70K of that, 9% of that 70K
(20:59):
is going towards your studentloan repayment, of which some of
the course is interest, right?
Um NHS obviously as alongsidethe pension is the maternity
cover.
So if you're looking to go onmaternity leave, that's
something that you should factorin as well.
Um, I would say generally,those are the kind of things
that you need to be looking atfrom a private point of view.
Dr James (21:21):
Nice.
Yeah.
Okay, well, let's listen, thisis all very valuable stuff.
I know that you said that wehad two examples to work through
in which, well, it was justexamples of certain scenarios in
which one or the other can makesense.
So maybe now is a good time togo through those.
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Amman (23:30):
Absolutely.
Just one more factor to think.
So we've got the career, we'vegot the personal situation.
The final thing to think aboutis investing and your risk
appetite.
Are you the type of person whois a bit more of a risk taker or
are you a bit more risk averse?
So, do you, for example, wantto diversify as you grow and you
(23:51):
start to earn more money?
Do you want to diversify intostocks and shares, potentially
buying a property?
Uh is it your goal to own yourown practice one day?
That kind of stuff is alsoreally important because if
you've got, say, a five to10-year goal, that really helps
paint the picture of this is howmuch I'm actually saving by
(24:12):
going limited.
And ultimately, that moneywithin the limited that you do
save could be used to facilitatesome of those purchases later
down the line.
Dr James (24:21):
There you go.
Yeah, oh yeah, thanks forreminding me.
I I remember now you said therewere the three main uh things
that you're going to use todecide that.
So that's that's very useful.
And um, yeah, you want toobviously consider your asset
choice, and then you want toconsider where the asset is
placed by way of the structureof that, whether that's in the
(24:41):
limited company, whether it's inthe personal name, uh whatever
you you decide.
Uh, really, really, reallyworth weighing that up and uh
not ignoring uh the fact thatyou can uh depending on your
situation, um, it can make a lotof sense to actually just take
the money out and put it in yourpersonal name and take the tax
hit a little bit of front, or atleast there's an argument to be
(25:02):
had on that front, uh,particularly if you're using an
ICIN, your plan is to compounduh long term, depends on your
situation as well.
But it's not always better tokeep the money in the limited
company, and you have to reallydecide to yourself.
One of the biggest things todecide to yourself is okay,
cool, how much money am Iactually going to keep in this
limited company after everythingis said and done and paid for?
(25:24):
Uh, because really that's hisprimary purpose is to act as a
tax shelter.
And if you're taking everythingout and investing it, well,
there's less of a reason or anecessity that you might have
one, I guess.
And that can be one of the keythings that you have to decide
is what is the actual goal forthis money.
Whereas if the goal for themoney is to you know shelter it
as much as possible andeventually get a dental
practice, that can be somethingthat makes you lean towards
(25:46):
having a limited company.
Amman (25:48):
Yeah, 100%.
And I think that is the crucialpoint, is sometimes you've got
to think five, 10 years time,where do you want to be and what
do you want to be doing?
If it is that actually you dowant to just build up on your
ISA and you could take theactual extra 20K and you could
earn that personally, you mightbe better off staying
self-employed.
(26:08):
But if you're thinking, I forsure know that I want to buy a
practice in five, 10 years'time, what you're actually doing
is let's say the additional 50kthat you keep within your
company, let's say over a10-year period that gets to
500k, right?
That 500k could then be used topurchase a practice.
The the crucial thing is that500k has not been taxed
(26:32):
personally on you.
Whereas if you had taken themoney out each year, being taxed
on it and then decided I wantto buy a practice is kind of too
late because you've already,well, you can still buy the
practice, but you've alreadybeen taxed each year to get to
that point.
Dr James (26:47):
Yeah, and that's that's that's a huge one.
It's starting with the end inmind, basically, and figuring,
figuring that sort of stuff outbecause obviously that can
expedite things or give you thatmuch more of a cushion whenever
that day comes.
And that's that's a very commonone right there, uh, which can
mean that actually, uh, as we'llcome on to the worked examples
in just a second, it can meanthat even if your earnings are a
(27:09):
lot less than somebody else, itcan make sense for you to go
limited and for them to stay asa sole trader, basically,
depending on what they're doingwith the money.
So it's really not a black andwhite situation.
Amman (27:21):
Yeah, 100%.
I've actually had one otherexample that's come into my mind
of why some people transitionover.
So a lot of people, uh a good10-15 years ago, they they were
buying properties within theirpersonal name.
And obviously, back then therules and regs were completely
different to how they are now.
So when you've got a propertyin your personal name now, you
(27:42):
only get a 20% tax credit.
So if you're within that taxbracket, that 20% tax bracket of
zero to 50k, ultimately there'smade no real difference to you.
But if you're a self-employeddental associate and you're
between, say, 50 to 125k, whichis the next tax bracket at 40%,
(28:03):
you're actually way worse offbecause you cannot deduct the
full mortgage interest on yourself-assessment.
So, what we're finding isdental associates, some of them
with this kind of setup wherethey've got a few practic uh buy
to let's in their own name, itactually is advantageous for
them to go limited companybecause all of a sudden, because
(28:24):
they can now determine how muchsalary and dividends they take
out of the business, if theykeep themselves under the 50k
threshold, they then don't loseout on deduct, they can deduct
all of that mortgage interestessentially.
Dr James (28:38):
Nice, amazing, man.
Very cool.
Okay, cool.
Well, there's some really greatdiscussion there, some really
good food for thought.
And I think this is actuallybuilt on a lot of the previous
content that we've done on SoulTrader versus Limited Company.
In that we've been reallythorough and really
comprehensive and covered a lotof the pros and cons.
Go on.
Amman (28:57):
Yeah, you just cut out there.
You just cut out there, so I'mnot sure if that bit will come
through.
Dr James (29:02):
Uh it should it should come through, it should come
through.
Uh because it records on bothsides, you see, so we should be
fine.
Uh, but yes, anyway, um yeah,just as I was saying a second
ago, we covered that to death.
Uh, long story short, it's alittle bit of a discussion, more
than a black and white thing,but these are a lot of the
parameters that you can use todecide.
And one extra thing that wehave uh which will help you
(29:22):
decide is some of those workedexamples that we were hinting at
earlier.
So maybe now is a good time tojump in with those.
Amman (29:29):
Sure.
So we've got two examples here,and both are made-up scenarios,
just to give the listener anexample of what we what you need
to factor in when making thedecision.
So you've got person A, let'ssay Charlie.
So Charlie earns 10k a monthand he's just started his
career.
(29:49):
So he's he's a couple of yearsout of foundation year.
He's in a fully privatepractice, and he's he's got a
student loan.
So he's graduated, he's got astudent loan.
He's living at home and he'sliving with his parents.
He's also got a sister who iscurrently a student at
university.
On top of that, he's determinedthat actually, because he's
(30:11):
living at home and he will befor the foreseeable, he does not
need much income on a monthlybasis.
He only needs about £2,000 amonth after tax to basically
live and go on holidays, etcetera, all that kind of
disposable income spend onwhatever he feels necessary.
So in that scenario, he alsowell, he also wants to
(30:36):
diversify.
So he wants to invest inproperties, etc.
Now, in that scenario, if youlook at the two different
structures, actually the taxadvantage of a limited company
is so much more.
So he's earning 120k a year.
Now, one of the main thingsthat we've not yet discussed on
is discussed is as soon as yougo over 100,000 pounds in
(30:58):
income, you start to lose aproportion of your personal
allowance.
The personal allowance is12,570 pounds.
So for every pound you go over100,000, you lose 50p of the
personal allowance, whichessentially means if you get
over 125,000 in income, you'vebasically lost all of the 12,500
(31:22):
of personal allowance.
Now he's earning 120k.
So he's still got a smallamount of personal allowance to
play with.
But because he's lost a largeproportion of that personal
allowance, his actual tax rate,so his income tax, his national
insurance, and the student loanrepayment, between 100 to 120k
(31:45):
is 71%.
So basically, on that income,he's paying £14,000 in tax and
he's keeping £6,000.
If you actually look at theoverall tax he paid in that
scenario, he's paid £51,000 intax once you factor in all of
the income tax, nationalinsurance and student loan.
(32:06):
So he's left with £69,000 inhis back pocket after the tax
year's finished.
Now, if you look at it from alimited company point of view,
firstly, he could employ himselfas a director.
So a director is an employee ofthe business and they're
entitled to a salary.
Because his sister is not inwork and she's a student, he
(32:28):
could potentially employ her inthe business.
Now, it has to be legitimateemployment.
So she could help him withadmin-related stuff, she could
help him with social media,potentially helping out on
accounting, accounting and taxqueries, etc.
He could also employ her.
Now, there's two or threebenefits to that.
Firstly, he could pay her herpersonal allowance, which is
(32:50):
tax-free.
So she's not going to get taxedon it.
He's also keeping another 12and a half K within the family
that otherwise would have beenstock in the limited company.
He's got an expense now of25,000, the two salaries put
together, which will save him atleast 19 to 20% in tax, if not
(33:11):
25%.
So 20%, let's just say, is a£5,000 corporation tax saving.
And then finally, because he'sgot two directors on the
payroll, he will also not haveto pay employers national
insurance, which he would havehad to have done if it was just
himself.
On top of that, because he onlyneeds $2,000 a month and he's
(33:33):
getting £1,000 or so from hissalary, the additional $1,000
he'll take out via dividends,which, like we said earlier, is
taxed at a much lower ratecompared to self-employed
income.
So actually, compared to theself-employed group, in this
scenario, he pays corporationtax of 21,000 and income tax of
(33:55):
about 1,300 pound.
So that's a roughly a 30,000pound difference in tax just on
having two different setups forthe same scenario.
Three basically three monthsworth of work, 30k, 10k a month,
about three months worth ofwork that he saved in tax.
Dr James (34:13):
Nice.
Amman (34:14):
Yeah.
Also, he's then got 60k inretained earnings.
And like we said earlier, if hehas got, like we said, that
he's got um an interest ininvesting property, he could
probably put down a deposit onthat for with that 60k if he
wanted to.
And that does require adifferent kind of structure
whereby you move money aroundeither through a loan or
(34:35):
dividends.
Um but ultimately it's it's atax-free way of doing it rather
than taking the 60k out, beingtaxed on it, and then buying
property.
Dr James (34:46):
Yeah, nice.
Yeah, 100%.
Amman (34:48):
Cool.
We've then got person B who'sSarah.
Now, Sarah is a bit more of aworkaholic, so she's earning
12.5k a month, 150k.
So she's earning 30k more thanCharlie is.
She's a general dentist, she'sbeen in the game for 25 years,
(35:08):
and she's probably only got fiveor so years left of work.
Her husband's in work, she'sgot kids who are also employed
there in work.
She's got a large NHS uhtarget, so she's doing 6,500
UDAs at £14 per UDA.
So that is roughly £90,000 forthe year in NHS income, about
(35:33):
60% NHS, and about 40% private.
She also doesn't have a studentloan because she's been paying
it off for 25 years, and she'sgot large monthly outgoings.
So she's got a large mortgageto pay for, she wants to give uh
her grandkids gifts, etc.
etc.
Now, in Sarah's situation,because she probably needs all
(35:55):
of the money each month, sheactually it doesn't make sense
for her to go limited.
Firstly, from an NHS point ofview, she's already been
contributing so much throughoutthe 25 years.
If she went limited, she couldno longer contribute.
Secondly, if you look at itfrom a tax point of view, if she
takes all of the money out ofthe limited company, she ends up
(36:18):
paying 64K in tax, which iscorporation tax plus income tax.
The tax she would pay if shewas self-employed would be 58k.
So there's about a 7,000 pounddifference between self-employed
versus limited, as well as thefact that she'll have additional
fees compared toself-employment if she was
(36:40):
limited.
She'd have probably a bit moreresponsibility, and she would
then obviously no longer be partof the NHS as well.
Dr James (36:49):
So there you go.
It really is, it really is aconversation to be had, and it
doesn't.
But you've just completely thatyou've just demonstrated that
kind of goes out the window,really, uh, when you depend on
your circumstances and what haveyou.
But yeah, interesting food forthought.
(37:11):
And uh thank you once again forcovering this so
comprehensively in today'spodcast because there'll be a
lot of stuff on there that'suseful for the listeners,
particularly with how it'schanged in 2026, which is what
we were referring to uh in someparts earlier.
I mean, you know, one thing Iwanted to ask just to round off
this podcast, which I think willbe super useful.
Everybody's obsessed withtax-deductible expenses, and we
(37:34):
could sit here and we couldrhyme off all the obvious ones
like I don't know, CPD orprofessional registrations and
indemnity and things along thoselines.
How about the ones that mostcommonly get missed, in your
opinion, or your most commonlyreminded people, reminding
people of in your work as anaccountant?
I think those would be the mostuseful ones to talk to over the
(37:54):
time that we have left.
Amman (37:55):
Sure.
So yeah, I'll I'll go throughuh two or three that I think are
the big ones that dentists tendto miss.
Now, I think the first thing Iwould say is whenever I have
these conversations withclients, I would always say that
I will give you all of theinformation and I can show you
and tell you what is taxdeductible and what you can be
(38:16):
putting through the business.
But just because something istax deductible does not mean
that you should do it.
You have to look at it from afull commerciality kind of point
of view.
Yes, you might save two, threegrand in tax by putting a
certain expense through thebusiness, but you still have to
pay 10 grand to put that expensethrough the business.
And could you be utilizing that10,000 pound better elsewhere
(38:40):
or saving it for retirement, forexample?
I think cars is is a is a hugeone.
So the tax savings withspecific cars are massive.
I'll give you an example.
So if you let's just say youhad a hundred K profit in your
limited company at the end ofthe year, and before you get to
(39:02):
that year-end point, you want toreduce that as much as
possible.
Theoretically, what you coulddo is buy a new electric car,
but you would then get a fulltax write-off of the value of
the car.
So let's just say it's ahundred grand electric e-tron
and your profits are 100k.
(39:24):
But that 100K minus the 100Kcapital allowance from the car
reduces your profit to zero.
So you then basically do you'vesaved approximately 20 to 25%
in tax, 20,000, 25,000 pounds.
Now, if you're self-employed,typically a dental associate
(39:46):
won't be doing much businessmileage.
Business mileage doesn't countif for traveling from home to
the practice, it's for outsideof ordinary commuting, so going
to a course, visiting youraccountant, etc.
etc.
So they probably do 10 to 15%of business miles in the year.
Now, with a limited company,you get a full tax write-off.
(40:10):
However, when you'reself-employed, it's proportioned
by the business use.
So if you're only doing 10% ofbusiness mileage, actually
you're not going to get much ofa tax deduction.
And ultimately, self-employeddentists are typically better
off just going down the mileageuh allowance route, which is 45p
(40:31):
the first 10,000 miles and soon.
I think the other thing to notethere is obviously if you buy a
car, it's it's a massiveoutflow of cash.
The other side of it isleasing.
So with leasing, it it can varydepending on the emissions of
(40:51):
the car.
If you've got a fully uh zeroemissions car, you will be able
to deduct 100% of those monthlycosts.
If, however, it's got over 50grams per kilometer for CO2,
then you can you get a 15%disallowance.
So essentially you can onlydeduct 85%.
I think, James, one of theinteresting points here is
(41:17):
typically an outflow of cash of100k is is quite substantial.
And most associates probablywouldn't want to do that.
If, however, you are leasingand the lease term implies that
the car is going to be yours atthe end of the five-year term,
(41:37):
you can accelerate those capitalallowances.
So you could theoretically getthe full capital allowance
deduction of the value of thecar if it's a new electric car
that you're leasing, even thoughyou're paying for it on a
monthly basis.
Yeah.
So for example, let's sayyou're paying £500 a month,
(41:59):
£6,000 for the year.
If the value of the car is 80K,you would get that, and it's a
new electric car that you'releasing with the view that
actually, as per the term, isgoing to be yours at the end of
the five years, you would stillget that full capital allowance
deduction at the start ratherthan it being spread over a
period of time.
Dr James (42:20):
Cool.
I I'm just trying to get myhead around that.
So uh you would get the fullcapital allowance at the start
of the just the entirety of yourtax bill, like the other tax
that you had to pay.
I'm just not quite sure howthat works.
Amman (42:36):
Yeah, so essentially, let's just say you've got 100k
of profit, and the first optionwas you buy a new electric car
for 100k, it reduces your profitby 100,000 pounds, you've then
got zero profit, you've then gotzero tax.
Dr James (42:50):
Yeah.
Amman (42:51):
The other option is if you lease it.
Now, if you lease it, you'renot buying the car by via cash,
you're basically making monthlyinstalments over, say, 60
months, five-year period, and incertain circumstances you will
own the car at the end of thefive years, in others you won't.
Dr James (43:08):
Yeah.
Amman (43:08):
If the term and the agreement is that you own that
car at the end of the fiveyears, instead of the monthly
deductions being allowable, youactually get the full capital
out of the car in the firstyear.
Dr James (43:24):
Yeah, it just it just seems like so you get a huge uh
allowance off your tax bill upfront, basically.
Yes, essentially that thatsounds like it shouldn't be the
case, but it obviously is right.
Amman (43:37):
It is because essentially what you're saying is that you
you you basically own that car,it's gonna be yours.
You just pay the payment termsare different compared to if
you're paying.
Sounds like a massive hack.
Dr James (43:49):
So basically, in other words, what you're saying is
that if your company makes ahundred grand, you're gonna be
you're gonna owe zerocorporation, and the car's worth
a hundred grand and you'repaying that off over however
many years, you're gonna payzero corporation tax, okay, but
you're gonna have all thatliquid cash in your bank
account, okay, uh, and only bepaying 500 of it each month,
(44:10):
which you're gonna havesubsequent cash flow to help
offset anyway.
Of course.
That's why I couldn'tunderstand it because I was
like, is that true?
Yeah, it just sounds too goodto be true, but that's actually
ridiculous.
Amman (44:21):
It's true, and it is a hack.
I think what you just need tobe mindful of is yes, you don't
have to make uh a massive cashuh payment in that first year,
but more than likely, or itdepending on the term, there
might be interest on it, right?
So over the course of the fiveyears, you probably will pay
more than 100k for the car.
Um, but you've got that fullfirst year deduction rather than
(44:45):
spreading it.
Dr James (44:46):
Do you get the 100k plus interest or just 100k?
Amman (44:50):
Um that's a good question.
I think you would probably beyou'd get the interest as well
because it's it's um yeah, youwould get the interest as well.
Dr James (45:00):
So the car is worth 100k, but you get 107k, for
example, tax write-offbasically.
Amman (45:05):
Yeah, that's right.
Dr James (45:07):
Okay, that sounds really good.
Ultimately thinking if I get anelectric car die unleashed.
Here we go.
Holy
Amman (45:15):
Yeah, exactly.
I think that it's important tomention that there are
disadvantages to it as well.
So this is where I say thatactually it's not all about yes,
I've got a massive taxdeduction in the first year.
It's also looking at the biggerpicture.
So firstly, let's just say youdo buy that car for 100k in the
(45:36):
first year.
You've got the write-off.
That car is now valued at zeroon your capital allowances pool.
So when you come to sell thatcar, let's just say you sell it
for 70k in four years' time.
That 70k compared to what it'svalued on your sorry, your
(45:56):
capital allowances pool shows a70k profit.
That then goes onto yourcorporation tax return, and you
then have to pay corporation taxon that 70k.
Dr James (46:07):
Really?
Okay.
Well, I can deal with thatbecause I'm paying, I'm still
paying less corporation taxoverall, right?
Amman (46:15):
You are, but then also this is where dentists, which is
it's a it's a good way to thinkabout it, but you also need to
think about the car itself.
So am I buying a car that'sgonna depreciate so much that
actually I might not I mightsave on taxes, but I'm gonna
lose in real term because thecash value is a lot less.
So you might buy a car for 100kand you sell it in four years.
(46:39):
And let's just say electriccars, they've not been great at
retaining their value.
So let's just say for thiscalc, it's 50k when you come to
sell it.
Yes, you'll pay less taxbecause the 50k profit is is
lower than 100k profit, butyou've also lost the 50k that
you've already paid for the car,which is the depreciation.
Dr James (47:01):
You the the car whizes out there tell me, well,
electric cars is gonna beharder, but if you're really
smart and you know your cars,you can get certain ones that
appreciate as well.
I'm told anyway, that's whereyou have to be a real whiz with
your cars.
I don't know if that applies toelectric cars though.
Uh because um, yeah, well,they're just completely
different from um, you know,traditional internal combustion
(47:24):
engines, aren't they?
Uh so I don't actually know asthe answer in that one, but I'm
just sharing that out loudbecause I have heard people say
that to me before, and it'slike, ah, and that's not you
know, that only applies if youaren't clever with the cars that
you're buying, right?
Like if you get like certainlimited edition models and stuff
like that, you can drive themand they still appreciate in
value, I'm told, apparently.
Amman (47:42):
Yeah, but I only know that for certain like Porsche
9-11s, etc.
So I'll have to think aboutthat.
Dr James (47:49):
Yeah, I don't know if it applies in in this example to
electric cars.
And just one quick questionbecause we should really move
on, because we've talked aboutthis a lot, although it is very
interesting.
Uh, is the car in the company'sname or your name?
It's in the company's name,right?
Amman (48:01):
It will be in the company's name, yes.
Dr James (48:03):
Um you can drive it as much as you want in a personal
sense.
Amman (48:06):
So, this is the other slight disadvantage.
Now, if you buy if you buy acar through the limited company,
there's a very high chance thatyou're not going to be just
using it for business purposes.
So there will be a personalusage for that car, which is
basically you as a directorearning a benefit from the
business.
That benefit is called abenefit in kind, and that would
(48:28):
go onto a benefit in kind P11Dform, and you would essentially
have to pay tax at your marginalrate.
So let's just say you're in thehigher tax bracket, you would
have to pay 40% tax on the valueof that benefit.
Now, the value of that benefitis determined by a number of
factors.
(48:48):
One is list price, so the listprice of the car.
Second is any add-ons extrasthat you've paid, then minus any
personal contributions thathave been made.
That figure is then applied toa percentage, and the percentage
that it's applied to isdependent on the emissions of
the car.
So if it's a fully electriccar, it could be four, four
(49:10):
percent, around the four or fivepercent.
If it's a uh a pure guzzler,want of a better word, it's 37%.
So all of a sudden, let's justsay the car's valued at 100K, 4%
of 100k, you're only adding4,000 pounds onto that onto that
tax return.
You need to pay 40% of that4,000 pound, which works out to
(49:34):
be about, let's just say, justunder £2,000.
As opposed to a car that's veryhigh in emissions and it's 37%.
Now you're adding £37,000 ontothat P11D, and you have to pay
40% on the £37,000.
Dr James (49:50):
Nice.
Yeah, I get it.
I get it.
Yeah, fine, cool.
Anyway, I sense there'sprobably more to that than what
we can we can cover today.
Maybe we should rattle through.
You said there were threereally cool tax-deductible uh
things we should talk about.
Cars is one of them.
Amman (50:03):
Yeah, I think the other one is use of home allowance.
So, use of home is another goodway for, and I must stress
again, it's different forself-employed versus limited
company.
When you're self-employed, youtypically get about £10 a month
that you can deduct on yourself-assessment.
So about £120 give or take.
It depends on the number ofhours you're working from home
(50:26):
when you're when you'reself-employed.
Now, when you're a limitedcompany, you've got two or three
options, but two main options.
The first option is you just gowith the standard allowance, no
questions asked.
And that's six pounds a week,about £312 for the year.
The second option is where youactually formalize some kind of
(50:49):
rental agreement betweenyourself as the individual and
the limited company.
And in that scenario, whatwould happen is let's just say
you've got um a two-bed flat andyou're renting it out, and it's
got two bedrooms, it's got akitchen diner, and it's got a
(51:10):
couple of bathrooms, forexample, lawn suite and an a
main bathroom.
What we would do is we wouldlook at a calculation of how
much rent you're paying, whatyour council tax is, all of the
bills in terms of gas, electric,internet, etc.
We would then add that up on ain terms of a monthly cost.
(51:30):
We would then apply aproportion to that.
So if you're working in one ofthe bedrooms and the bathrooms
don't count within thecalculation.
But let's say you've gotkitchen diner and you've got two
bedrooms in the flat.
So that's one-third of yourliving space that you're working
in.
So let's just say the totalcost for the month are 3k.
(51:53):
You could then apply a third tothat number, which is £1,000 a
month.
You then apply anotherpercentage to it, which is how
often you are working in theflat, which could be 10%, 15%.
It's not going to be 50, 60%,because obviously you're in
practice most of the time.
(52:14):
That figure that you then workout.
So let's just say it's 15% is£150 a month.
£150 a month across a 12-monthperiod is £1,800.
Now, what you could do isfirstly you could deduct that as
a legitimate business expensethrough the limited company.
(52:36):
So you get corporation taxsavings between 19 to 25%.
Secondly, the business will oweyou that money back from the
limited company tax-free via adirector's loan account.
Thirdly, you're personally alsoearning income, right?
I.e.
the limited company is havingto pay you £150 a month in order
(53:01):
for you to basically work, inorder for the business to work
in this premises.
That should go on your taxreturn as £1,800 rental income.
But you can offset that becausethe £1,800 is based on your
actual expenses anyway.
So you've actually put it onyour tax return, but the tax the
(53:23):
taxable income is zero.
So you don't actually get taxedon it.
But also on yourself-assessment, you don't get
taxed on it.
Dr James (53:30):
Nice.
Okay, so this can this can becalled this can add up, right?
Amman (53:36):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, the slight caveatagain, just like with the cars,
there's always a caveat, is ifthere's a couple of
stipulations.
Firstly, if you're renting, youyou should probably check with
your landlord that they arehappy with the situation.
If there is some kind ofagreement in place, then yeah,
(53:56):
absolutely go for it.
But if there's not, that'swhere it can get a bit of a bit
sticky.
If, however, you're you're notrenting and it's a mortgage and
it's your own property, there'salso a tax implication there.
So if you were to sell aprimary residence, i.e., the
house you're living in,typically speaking, when you
(54:16):
come to sell it, there's no tax,then there's no capital gains,
it's your primary residence.
However, if HMRC argue thatactually there's part of that
house has been used for abusiness, some capital gains
might be due on that propertywhen you come to sell it.
Dr James (54:33):
Interesting.
Amman (54:34):
So the way that you could kind of get around it is you
put up a contract between thebusiness and yourself, whereby
there's a non-exclusive use ofany room at any particular time.
Dr James (54:46):
Right.
Amman (54:47):
But I would always say that that's the kind of advice
that you really need to speak toyour accountant about.
And two, you might even need asolicitor, for example, to draft
a contract and make sure it isproper.
Dr James (54:57):
Gotcha.
So providing your landlordagrees to it, it's way more
easier if you're a renter,right?
If they agree to yeah, makessense.
Okay.
Um very valuable stuff.
Uh you know what?
We should probably do a podcaston exactly all of this stuff at
some stage.
But I'm gonna I'm conscious wesaid we'd go for the hat trick,
and we've done two out of threenow, and we could probably talk
(55:19):
more on those.
What was the third one?
Amman (55:21):
Yeah, I mean, there's so many smaller ones like mobiles,
trivial benefits, etc., etc.
I think the other ones thatdentists tend to miss is the
kind of advice that James, youwould probably be giving to
dental associates through theday.
So the pension side, the incomeprotection, the relevant life
(55:42):
cover, those kinds of costs,whilst what I tend to see is
obviously a lot of our dentalassociates, especially our
client base, is is younger,right?
So they don't tend to look atthe relevant life cover as much.
They don't really look at theincome protection.
They always kind of kick thecan down the road and say, we
(56:02):
will have a look at that infive, 10 years' time.
But ultimately, firstly,they're tax deductible.
Secondly, it's great to havethose kind of policies in place
because ultimately, let's justsay you are off work for a
three-month period and you'rethe director and shareholder of
(56:23):
your business, all of a suddenyour business has gone from $8,
$12, $15k a month to zerobecause you're earning no
income.
If you've got a policy likeincome protection in place,
firstly, it's allowable.
Secondly, you will then get apayout for those periods of time
where you're not working.
I don't know if you want tojump into that, James.
Dr James (56:44):
You know what?
You know what I think we shoulddo.
Is like I say, I'm just 2%conscious this podcast is like
15 minutes long.
Now let's let's leave thatwhere it is in terms of it being
something that can signpostpeople to start thinking about
the three most important thingsthat people miss.
And then what we can do is wecan make a follow-up podcast uh
(57:05):
which probably covers thatbecause you could probably talk
for like maybe 10, 15, 20minutes and all the various ways
people can do that.
But uh Amman, I just wanted tothank you for your time today.
That was that was literallygreat, man.
Like there's there's a lot ofstuff in there.
If anybody wants to reach outto you off the back of what we
said today, how are they bestoff finding you?
Amman (57:22):
Yeah, I mean, obviously they can they can obviously
reach out to yourself, they canalso uh go on our website, so
www.capitalelevation.
So that's c a p I t a lelevation, e-l-e v A T I O N dot
co.uk.
Or you can drop me an email,and that's Amman.
So that's alpha mike mike alphanovember at capital C A P I T A
(57:46):
L Elevation, E-L-E-V-A-T-I-O Ndot Co.uk.
Dr James (57:51):
Nice.
Or it's important to mentionthat you can also find Amman on
the Dentists Who InvestFacebook group, should you so
wish as well.
That's Amman Starcaria.
In the meantime, Amman, thanksso much for your time and wisdom
today.
Hope you have a great Fridayand great weekend, and we'll see
each other soon.
Amman (58:05):
Absolutely.
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