April 26, 2026 • 43 mins
Special Offer: Get 15% OFF your first FIGS order with code FIGSUK at checkout.
Shop now at https://www.wearfigs.com/
———————————————————————
UK Dentists: Collect your verifiable CPD for this episode here >>> https://courses.dentistswhoinvest.com/smart-money-members-club
———————————————————————
Starting a dental practice from scratch at 25 is either madness or the fastest business education you can buy. We sit down with James and Katy Nolan, who did exactly that by launching a private dental squat, learning compliance and operations as they went, and then choosing to go back for more with a second location.
We get honest about why they avoided buying an existing practice and paying goodwill, and why having full control over the brand, the fit-out and the patient experience mattered. They break down the less glamorous realities that hit new owners hardest: cash flow, overheads, staffing, planning, CQC rules, and the moment you realise a dental practice is a business with marketing and sales at its core, not just a place to do dentistry.
Then we dig into the practical stuff every UK dentist wants to know, especially principals thinking about a squat practice: how they filled diaries with almost no budget, including a bold Instagram DM strategy, virtual consults and an early focus on testimonials and transformations. Finally, we zoom out to scaling, discussing systems, managers and the shift from working in the business to working on the business, plus why the second practice can feel even more demanding than the first.
If you’re weighing up a dental squat versus buying, trying to grow a private practice, or wondering whether ownership will give you freedom or become a ball and chain, this one will give you clarity. Subscribe for more, share it with a colleague who’s planning a squat, and leave us a review with your biggest question about practice ownership.
———————————————————————
Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. Investment figures quoted refer to simulated past performance and that past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results/performance.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr James (01:43):
What would ever come over if somebody to start a
squat at the age of twenty-five?
Well, pull that thought becausethat's the question that you
can ask my two amazing guests inthe Dentists Who Invest Podcast
today.
James and Katy Nolan didexactly that and then since went
on to start a further squat.
A little later, a few yearsdown the line, we're going to be
talking about their journey,what possessed them to make that
decision way back in the day atsuch young age, the trials and
(02:04):
tribulations that theyencountered, and their words of
wisdom to anybody who is aboutto embark upon that journey.
As ever, you can claim your CPDfor this episode within the
official Dentists Who InvestSmart Money Members Club.
Smart Money Members Club alsoincludes multiple mini courses
and webinar series on financefor dentists, including how to
become as tax efficient aspossible, as well as
(02:25):
understanding investing.
All of this content counts asverifiable CPD, and you can
download your certificates thereand then upon completion of
each lesson.
In addition to this, we alsoinclude a whopping 10% discount
on your dental indemnity and 5%discount on lab bills for dental
principals, amongst other perksand discounts for members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
(02:47):
verifiable CPD for this episode.
Guys, Kitty and James, let'scut to the chase.
The exact title of thispodcast, What comes over
somebody to start a flippingsquat at 25?
First of all, hats off to youboth.
You do know you've donesomething amazing, right?
(03:07):
Thank you.
Um yeah, it's really Yeah,yeah, we're great.
No, I'm kidding.
James (03:12):
No, don't I think yeah, more I don't know, more um,
probably naivety and ignorancelooking back, but a big dream.
Um, yeah, I think what wouldyou say?
Katy (03:24):
I'd say, yeah, dreaming and naivety, definitely.
I'd say we met at university,so like part of the talking
point was, you know, do we wantto have a practice one day?
And we wanted it to be glassfronted.
And yeah, we just literallywalked across across the complex
once, and it was had all bigglass fronts.
We don't, we'd not even beenlong since graduated, and we
(03:45):
just kind of looked at it and Iwas like, James, we've got to do
it.
James (03:49):
Yeah, wow, and then we just decided, yeah, and then we
we knew what we wanted tocreate, and then we just kind of
we have a good work, we have agood work ethic looking back,
and we just yeah, did what ittook to make it happen.
Katy (04:02):
Stubborn, stubborn stubbornness is like one of the
biggest things that we had.
Like if we like if we weregoing to do it and we're going
to make it happen, we were sostubborn we'd have put our
through selves throughabsolutely anything to make it
work, which is a good qualityand a bad quality, because we
would sacrifice our life for ittoo.
Dr James (04:20):
Well, you gotta, that's how it works, at least at
the start, right?
And there's there's there's asaying, and I can't remember the
exact saying, I'm not evengonna attempt it today, uh, but
in case I butcher it.
But it's something along thelines of naivety is your biggest
superpower, uh, especially atthe start, whenever you start a
business, because you just youalmost know so little about the
situation that you're not scaredof the downside or potential
(04:42):
negative things can happenbecause you don't even know what
they are, and then thereforeyou just go for it.
James (04:47):
Yeah, I think that that that would be it.
Like we were relatively freshout of university, we were about
three, three years out, two,two years out, two, three years
out.
Um, so you only have limitedexperience.
Um, and you can see the gaps inthe practices where you work,
and we could see you know theholes that we could fill.
Katy (05:05):
Yeah.
James (05:06):
But then I don't think we really saw the behind full
behind the scenes of running apractice, and I don't think you
really truly appreciate it untilyou're actually doing it.
You know, all the other costsunderstanding you need of like
the marketing, the sales, youknow, just the general business
overheads and controlling those,and that's how you it's not
just a practice where you dodentistry, it's a it's a full-on
business.
Dr James (05:26):
Um yeah, you know what, we should totally talk
about that, and we willdefinitely cover that as the
podcast progresses.
I guess the first thing thatsprings to my mind is why don't
you just go and buy a dentalpractice that was already set
up?
Because they say that's theeasier path versus a squat.
James (05:42):
I mean, for for my answer, I would say um if you're
buying a practice, uh you'rebuying someone else's deco, uh,
someone else's fit out.
So you have to confine, youknow, uh you're you're limited
to how they've made theaesthetic of the practice look,
and then you're buying thegoodwill, and goodwill is very
expensive.
(06:03):
So I feel like it's a saferoption because you're buying and
you've got immediate cash flowfrom day one.
But if we were buying apractice, I think we'd look for
one that we could do animprovement with.
So we'd probably want toimprove the marketing, we'd
probably want to refurb it,probably want to get new
patients in either way.
I mean, it's like, well, ifthey're the problems that you're
gonna solve when you buy thepractice, then you can save the
goodwill and you can fit oneout.
(06:23):
Um, and yeah, you can do themarketing yourself.
Um, I I think it's it's alittle more cost-effective at
our time of setting up, wedidn't have the funds required
to purchase the practice.
We couldn't have purchased one,um, but we could set one out,
set one up.
Um, yeah, what would you say?
Katy (06:42):
I don't want to sound controversial.
Dr James (06:44):
So if you need to cook, it's fine, it's it's
allowed on this podcast.
Well, actually, listen, Ishould be careful then because I
have no idea what's going tocome out of your box.
This could be anything.
Katy (06:54):
I'd say going back to like the dreaming aspect, I'd say I
didn't want to buy somebodyelse's dream.
Like for me, like we had ourown and we'd done it for so many
years, like we knew what wewanted.
Like, I did I didn't want tobuy somebody else's chair,
walls, team members.
I wanted to pick my own, likelike everything.
Like yeah, I I want it, andalso as well when you're buying
(07:18):
somebody else's practice, youdon't know whether somebody is
potentially kind of like set itup to sell.
You don't know what you'repotentially walking into.
I you know, you're potentiallygonna walk into a whole
curveball full of problems.
Not that I'm saying thatsomebody potentially do it on
purpose, but just in case it'snot it didn't, I didn't want it
to be my first experience.
Um, so yeah, I'd say that, andthen also, yeah, it was cost
(07:40):
effective.
Like we we got it, we wemanaged to build a loan, and
then COVID happened.
The loan got halved, so we hadto halve the build and then
build up in stages.
So even if we wanted to buysomebody else's practice, it
just was not going to happen.
Dr James (07:54):
Yeah, and you know what?
I don't want to sidetrack thispodcast too much, but if we pull
this podcast into the presenttense and we speak from where
you guys are right now, was itthe right choice?
James (08:06):
There's a few things I'd I'd say to answer that.
Yeah, I think business-wise forsure, uh personal life-wise,
definitely not.
Um yeah, like yeah, we haven'tbeen a holiday for years, or you
yeah, since 2017, Katyremembered.
Not as a couple, not as acouple.
Katy (08:21):
We have been a holiday, but it doesn't count unless you
go as a couple, but no, itdoesn't, we went and we don't
really do dates.
James (08:26):
We don't really yeah, for years we didn't have a life for
many, many years.
And it's uh um that's where thenaivety comment comes back in.
We didn't realize what we'regetting ourselves into.
I think if we truly knew theextent that we're getting into,
I think we'll probably still doit.
Katy (08:37):
But like um that's because we're stupid.
James (08:39):
You've probably ever thought about that.
Um, but business-wise, forsure, for sure.
It means it it's I think youlearn a lot of lessons having to
set everything up from scratch.
There's no systems, noprocesses, no employee.
Like you you've just got to doeverything from scratch.
I think the knowledge andexperience you gain from setting
up from scratch is um yeah,it's it's priceless.
It's not only about thefinancial side, it's where we
feel now in terms ofunderstanding the dental
(09:01):
business model, even thoughwe're we're nowhere when we want
to be, but um it it's reallyvaluable.
Katy (09:07):
I'd say part of the romance of it as well, like
which drove the full thing to befair, is we wanted to spend all
of our time together.
Um, not just me, both of us,but um, we wanted to spend all
our time together, so it itallowed for that.
But I would say when they saylike business can be make or
break for relationships, I I cansee that like we've had to be
able to work together all thetime.
(09:30):
And you know, you're constantlytalking about business or you
you're constantly thinking aboutsomething or something like
that.
It's yeah, I feel like I weknew we had a strong
relationship, but we definitelyneeded to have a strong
relationship to be able to justsacrifice everything and give
everything our all to thebusiness together and show
united front.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr James (09:50):
Wow, love it.
So make sure that therelationship is strong from the
get-go, is is part of your wordsof wisdom.
Definitely is the takeaway fromthat.
Okay, cool.
All right, let's go back to thepast tense.
Let's go to circa the era whenwe started the dental practice.
So, squat, you had your eye onthe market for the squat, uh you
(10:12):
had your eyes out, okay, for agood practice or whatever.
How many people did you go andtalk to beforehand?
Like, how did you what were theactual logistics of making it
happen?
Did you just like full-on gofor it?
Or was there a lot ofmentorship and consideration and
things along those lines?
I'm just curious.
Katy (10:26):
We almost thought we had a bag in at one point, didn't we,
James?
James (10:30):
Well, we yeah, we didn't to be fair, we we didn't have a
mentor, we didn't do any, wedidn't have anyone sort of
guiding us.
Um just a lot of research, alot of research.
Um we looked at we only lookedat one other place, we looked at
one other practice that'd beengoing since 2012, and it's been
10 years at the time.
And due to costs, somehow,yeah, yeah, yeah.
(10:51):
It was um, and then somehow ituh yeah, it didn't have CQC, um,
it didn't have a planningpermission, and we were like,
whoa, okay, how is thatoperating?
Even if we found that at thattime, um, but uh yeah, we kind
of just went at it and wethought, well, if someone else
can do it, then why can't we doit as well?
Katy (11:10):
So with CQC, ours we've made it legal, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
James (11:14):
Just to be clarified.
Um, but yeah, so then it's justyeah, the guidelines and
everything's all like this.
We just I just spent yeah, wejust spent ages reading
guidelines and you know, fullHTML 105 back to front.
Katy (11:24):
That was James.
I can't take credit.
James (11:26):
Yeah, just we were just obsessed with the idea of making
it work.
So we didn't actually speak toanyone before we did it.
We just thought, let's do this.
And wow, and you still pulledit off.
Somehow, somehow.
Katy (11:37):
I feel like I was probably like James is like really,
really good at being by thebook, following the rules and
making sure that we doeverything properly.
And I'm kind of like there,come on, James, it's gonna be
absolutely fine.
Other pull other people havedone it, so we can too, like
where there's a will, there's away, like, come on, it's gonna
be easy.
So then, yeah, I feel like it'sa good teamwork, but James
(12:00):
probably has had a lot of yearstaken from his life, probably.
James (12:03):
I think probably, yeah, I think having a good mentor
would have been would have beenreally helpful though.
Um I think like knowledge issomething that we probably
underestimated and experienced.
You know, instead, we learnedhad to learn from our
experiences as we went along.
Um and if we knew where to findsomeone and we would have
spoken to someone, then it wouldfor sure have been something
that would really helpfulbecause it was it was difficult
(12:24):
and stressful setting up andtrying to navigate it was it's a
maze.
Um building a practice andgetting it going.
You know, we started we hadzero pounds left for marketing,
we didn't know what marketingwas.
We thought people just walk in.
Um, there were so many thingsthat we did wrong, like cash
flow, didn't understand whatcash flow was, so we had nothing
left.
We put it like um, yeah, whichwould have been nice if someone
would have told us this beforewe opened.
Katy (12:45):
Um then again though, it might have put gems off some in
some ways.
I'm kind of glad that we wentinto it a bit blind.
James (12:52):
For sure.
Yeah.
Dr James (12:54):
Well, it just goes back to what I was saying
earlier.
I think it can be your greatestsuperpower, really.
Just a little bit of naivety uhactually can help out.
Not too much, there's like asweet spot there somewhere, but
it sounds like it kind of pannedout for you guys.
So listen, walk me through it,walk me through it.
You've got the practice,they've given you the loan, you
sorted it all out, you're goodto go.
(13:14):
It's opening day.
What's going through your headas 25-year-old?
Surely you remember that daycrisply in here, even though it
was many years ago, because itwas so poignant and uh power,
you know, such a such a hallmarkpart of the journey.
James (13:28):
Yeah, you know, yeah.
Katy (13:31):
Um probably a lot of emotions, partially, thank
goodness, because as with manybuilds, there was delays.
So we'd had the patients bookedin probably like a week before,
and I'd kept on having to movethem.
I remember like I've got aphoto, I don't take pictures of
myself crying, but I've got oneon my phone where I we had like
(13:51):
a full day of patients booked inand I had to move them, and I
was just devastated because Ididn't want to let them down.
And obviously they were fine,they were literally so fine, but
I just put so much pressure onboth of us that I really hated
moving them, but they wereliterally fine.
Um so yeah, I feel like just ahuge, huge, huge relief um when
(14:12):
we actually could open thedoors.
And then yeah, again, we werejust young.
Like I remember there was twostaff members waiting for us in
um what the was the staff roomat the time, and now he's a
surgery.
They were like, Oh, uh, what doyou want us to do today?
And both of us, both of usthought, oh well, they're
qualified, so they know whatthey want to do.
So we're like, whatever youlike, just whatever you'd
(14:32):
normally do, go do that typething.
They just kind of looked at uslike, This is your first rodeo,
isn't it?
James (14:39):
One of them stuck with us, she's actually our
operations manager now, so sheyeah, she's been very, very key
for the journey.
Um, but yeah, I think, yeah,and on the day, you know, no
sleep the night before.
Um, and then yeah, we had a youyou went out about four at six
a.m.
the night before on the morningto buy a desk.
Katy (14:57):
Oh, I was so excited.
So but because uh the loan thatwe got given, the build had
started, and then we kind of gottold like it's it's actually
gonna be half the loan nowbecause of COVID.
So we had to say to thebuilders, right, can we do one
section of the build?
And then we recouped money, didthe rest, then recoup money,
did the rest again.
So we're always kind of used tonow having builds on, which
kind of probably does help withexpansion.
(15:20):
Um but yeah, so the surgery wasthe staff room, and then we
have private private waitingrooms, so pods attached to
surgeries, it's just part of ourdesign.
And um yeah, so James's likeoffice at the time was was
there, and he had no table oranything for his office, and he
was like, It's fine, Katy.
We we don't have the money forit at the moment.
(15:40):
So I was like, No, I'm sure wecan spare 60 pounds.
I woke up really, really,really early to go get this
table before we started the day.
Um, yeah, that's I don't know,that's the day.
James (15:51):
So like I guess, yeah, yeah, it's it's so in summary,
like positivity because it'sgetting going, and your first
patient's walking in the door,and you it's excitement, but
it's also stress because it'scrunch time, so everything has
to work well, and that patientneeds to be given a good
experience.
Yeah, it's the first timeyou're doing it.
Dr James (16:05):
So um and how did it go?
James (16:09):
Really well, really, really well.
Um, yeah, the first day waswent really good.
Katy (16:12):
Our first ever patient still, yeah.
She's she's still stuck withus.
She brought in a family memberto see us recently.
Dr James (16:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh wow, okay.
So it must have been quite agood impression then.
She she's still coming back,she's still there.
Wonderful.
There we are.
James (16:28):
Yeah, that's it.
Dr James (16:29):
And can I ask a question, right?
And I hope this doesn't comeacross as like disrespectful or
blunt in any way whatsoever.
Did you ever have any headwindsin terms of staff or patients
not really giving you thecredibility that you deserve
because you were so young?
Because 25 is young.
You know, when I see25-year-olds now, and they
(16:51):
really do, they look like in anice way, like they look so much
uh you can tell they'rekidding, they're they're so much
fresh-faced and kind of youknow, uh, they look really
young, right?
Don't they, you know?
And did you ever come upagainst any headwinds because of
that or anybody not taking youseriously?
UK dentists, Dentists WhoInvest now has an official
platform where you can learnabout finance and obtain UK
(17:13):
compliant, verifiable CVD at thesame time.
The only platform that existson which you can do both.
The Smart Money Members Clubhas hundreds of hours of mini
courses, webinar series, andlive day recordings on all
things finance slash taxefficiency for UK dentists.
This includes complete courseson how tax works for UK
dentists, finance so that youcan invest and grow your own
(17:35):
money, business so you canimprove your profitability as an
associate or principal, and forthose out there that want it,
there's also a mini course andhow you can responsibly enter
the crypto space using measuredamounts of capital.
I've gathered this content fromthe best of the best I could
find in each respective area sothat you know that this is how
people at the forefront of eachfield advise their clients.
(17:59):
The Smart Money Members Clubalso contains discounts on
common things that UK dentistsneed to pay for on a regular
basis.
This includes a whopping 10%discount on dental indemnity,
the offer to beat your incomeprotection deal no matter what
you're paying, and for theprincipals out there, 5%
discount on lab bills and 10%discount on practice insurance.
(18:19):
These are designed to offerhundreds, if not thousands, in
annual savings.
The purpose of this membersclub is to not only boost your
monthly income but also manageyour outgoings as much as
possible and therefore createmore profit.
To celebrate the launch of theSmart Money Members Club, and
given that the CPD deadline iscoming up soon, I've decided to
offer the first month of thisplatform entirely for free.
(18:41):
This offer will end in thecoming weeks as soon as the
current CPD cycle is up.
To collect your CPD for thispodcast episode using the Smart
Money Members Club, feel free touse the link in the description
of this podcast.
Katy (19:11):
I wouldn't say you you didn't look young, but I think I
I did I think I did look young.
Like at first, I remember Idon't want to say wishing away,
but in a way, kind of wishingaway a couple of years, just so
I didn't sound quite so youngbecause I felt very competent,
and um yeah, I did to be fair.
I felt very confident.
Like at uni, I won a awards formy clinical skills.
James (19:33):
I I felt very competent and ready to kind of thrive and
do well, but yeah, just being alittle bit on that young side, I
found it a little bit of abarrier at some stages, and now
I wish I was that young again,but but I think the sort of you
had in the background the factthat it was your practice, and I
think that kind of meantbecause before we opened, like
you said, you'd have patientscoming in and then they'd say,
(19:55):
Oh, how old are you?
How long have you beenpracticing all this stuff?
Katy (19:58):
Who's the dentist?
Yeah, which one of you is thedentist?
James (20:01):
No way did you get that sometimes, did you?
Then when you have it, it'slike because you owned it, it it
kind of spoke for itself.
You didn't really get as much,yeah, not as much, though, I
think.
Yeah, you're like, Yeah, thisis my place.
Dr James (20:14):
So, yeah, yeah, it's natural, it's gonna happen.
I had that happen to me a fewtimes, you know.
So it just it just is what itis.
Not so much anymore towards theend of my career, and then I I
missed those days.
So if if you're still goingthrough that, anybody who's
listening in the audience, it'sa good thing.
Cling on to those days whilethey're still happening, anyway.
Moving on.
Okay, so you were what wouldyou?
I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you aquestion now.
I'm curious the practiceitself, NHS, private, mixed.
(20:38):
What was the setup?
James (20:39):
Purely, purely private.
Uh no way, seriously.
Yeah, we wow.
We actually we we we didn't doour VT here for one reason or
another.
A few reasons.
For a few reasons, a fewpersonal reasons.
Uh uh, we didn't end up doingVT, so we had to do private, so
we went straight out and didprivate, which gave us the
experience in the privatepractice and seeing how it runs
and and providing privatetreatment to patients.
Um, and then yeah, we gotinsights into how a private
(21:02):
practice ran.
So then we set off.
Uh, you are very artistic,Katy's very artistic, you know,
with with the hands very good.
So uh it was at the time, yeah.
We were like, well, let's setup somewhere where you can
practice your craft doingcosmetic side more, and then but
instead of just doing cosmetic,we want to do everything under
one roof.
So we we we do, yeah, it'spurely private, but we do
everything from specialist orthoto all on four, full implants,
(21:24):
specialist or surgery, cosmetic,veneer, everything.
Katy (21:28):
Um I'd say we were we once did CPD uh practice, and it was
it was a special, it wasn't aspecialist practice, but it had
a lot of specialists in it, andeverybody played to their
strengths.
And I just I remember going tothe CPT and like hearing from
all the different people, and Ijust thought it was absolutely
amazing.
Like everybody gets to go towork and do exactly what they
enjoy all day long, and Iremember seeing the cosmetic
(21:51):
dentist there because that's thething that I was interested in.
It was kind of prior to thedays of cosmetic dentists in a
way, and I remember like lookingat it and thinking, oh my god,
like she's amazing! Like she waslike a superstar to me at the
time.
Um, but yeah, I'd say a big abig thing as well, like why we
didn't do the BT Yeah, a lot ofit stems back to wanting to kind
(22:12):
of like not to be cringy, it isa bit cringy, I suppose, but to
to be together and sticktogether and you know spend all
our time together.
Like, yeah, I've got like thislittle romance love story in my
head.
Dr James (22:24):
That's good.
Okay, well, listen, it seems tohave worked out so far for you
guys because it hasn't held youback because you've achieved all
these brilliant things.
And I think one thing wehaven't mentioned so far is
you've actually got an you'veactually started another squat,
haven't you, as time has goneon.
But let's let's talk on that injust a second, actually.
But just before we do, when youhad the practice itself, did
(22:46):
you have any associates from theget-go?
Or it was just both ofyourself, was it?
James (22:50):
Yeah, we did.
We did, we had uh more, we hadmaybe four or five.
Uh oh wow.
Yeah, so we had a specialist ora surgeon.
We could be a specialistperiodontist, actually, and then
we had uh we had a hygienist,we had a CDT who started with us
as well.
Um that's and two dentistsactually.
(23:13):
Oh, yeah, so we had six.
Um yeah, yeah.
Katy (23:18):
I kind of basically I feel like the way our kind of life
works is I dig us into a bighole, and then James pulls us
back out again.
So, like, cause we were doingthe practice, I was like, right,
it's gonna be amazing.
We've got private pods, it'sgonna be beautiful, it's gonna
be called Vitruvian, and itstands for all of this.
So, and then I just like go onInstagram or something, like
message loads of people, likefind some amazing profiles, be
(23:40):
like, you need to work with us.
And then James would be like,Katy, we have no Never ran a
practice before.
What on earth are you thinking?
James (23:46):
Yeah, it was stress.
But yeah, we started with them,and yeah, the diaries were we
we managed to somehow make thediaries okay.
Uh Instagram.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr James (23:55):
That was the next thing I was gonna ask.
How did you fill the diaries?
Because that's one of thebiggest pain points for a new
dental praxis, particularlysquats.
Uh, it's yeah, how we got theloan.
James (24:05):
Well, initially, yeah, we had a list of patients, but
Katy had uh you did that.
I'll give you all the like yourspectrum.
She'd basically message peoplejust just just on Instagram.
She just had her account andshe just called messaged people
who are in the area.
Katy (24:19):
James, it wasn't quite like that.
James (24:22):
Literally was in the area.
Literally just send them a coldmessage saying, Do you want
your teeth done?
Katy (24:26):
She'd look and see if they had if somebody's not smiling
and showing the teeth, there'soften a reason why.
That's all I'm gonna say.
James (24:31):
Okay, they would offer to fix that.
So literally cold message, butshe ended up with a list of
which was we're fully work fortwo weeks.
There was no money spent, andshe just cold message people,
and then she'd do visual.
Katy (24:40):
There's like six figures the the amount of people that
were wanting to come to us, butit was prior.
Sorry, I put it in.
You speak.
Sorry.
James (24:48):
Oh no, no, no, go, go, go.
Katy (24:49):
No, it was just prior to the days of cosmetic venture.
Sorry, I didn't mean to put inthen I feel bad now.
James (24:55):
But yeah, so she yeah, no, I was giving you credit like
that.
Um, so yeah, so then she hadshe'd do virtual consults,
pretty much set up the treatmentplans, um, obviously buying the
checkup and any general workthey need after the x-rays, and
then we ended up with a waitinglist of um, yeah, it was about
six figures worth within thefirst two weeks.
It was over six figures becausewe needed that to pay off a
second bit of the bill.
Yes, so we we went over budgetwith extras of by about that
(25:17):
amount, so we needed that.
Um, but then we thought yes,there's no market in budget.
Um now we do it reallydifferently.
Now we have a massive marketingbudget, but um, yeah, it was
just so different.
Needs must.
Dr James (25:30):
I'm just blown away that you filled the books with
cool DMs on Instagram.
I mean, fair there must havebeen a lot of cool DMs, right,
to cat the right people, but itworked.
Kitty?
James (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I honestly not like we had nonothing on marketing.
We hadn't set up Google ads, wehadn't set up Meta ads, um, we
hadn't done anything other thanboosting the odd post on uh your
Instagram, which was uh we hadlimited cases on there.
That was it.
So it was just cold DMingpeople, offering them very good
deals um in exchange for like uhtestimonials and
transformations.
(26:04):
Um yeah.
Katy (26:06):
The thing is, is somebody doesn't like I feel like it's so
easy to get afraid of beingembarrassed, but if somebody
doesn't respond, or if somebodylike doesn't acknowledge you or
says, Oh no, sorry, it's not forme, nobody's lost anything.
Like it wasn't a case of mesaying, Oh, you're not smiling
with your teeth.
Like, I didn't give anybody anegative self-esteem or anything
like that.
It'd literally be a case oflike, hi, by the way, like
da-da-da.
(26:27):
Like, you know, respond ordon't respond, that's absolutely
fine.
Like, it it was it's just Idon't know, energy and
excitement.
James (26:35):
You just messaged us that we're opening a brand new
dental practice.
Would you be interested?
Dr James (26:38):
I'm blown away.
I've I I mean it makes completesense that it would work.
I've just never thought aboutdoing that, and I've never heard
of anybody on the podcasteither saying that.
So listen, that that isactually really cool, and I hope
that the listeners are reallytuning in right now because
(26:58):
everybody gets their in a rightsort of how can I say this?
You know, they have a realhang-up on how the books are
gonna fulfill up.
You guys did zero marketing,zero spend, pure just putting in
a shift, messaging peoplehonestly.
Katy (27:13):
It was a lot of work, yeah.
Dr James (27:15):
You can imagine it must have been two of us.
Katy (27:17):
Like it definitely needed two of us.
James (27:20):
Yeah, while you were doing the asking crazy work.
I did the paperwork while youwere doing it, built filming a
diary, and it was like teamwork,good teamwork.
Katy (27:26):
And I know you became very good at messages, James.
Dr James (27:30):
I didn't I know this is a little bit of a crude
question because it's not allabout what I'm about to ask,
like there's other variablessurrounding it as well.
But how many followers did youhave around about that era on
Instagram?
Katy (27:43):
Probably not that many compared, to be fair, probably
like four or five thousand.
Like probably it was reallyprobably not that many,
actually.
Like I've yeah, and then I putmy account on pause for a while
because I couldn't keep up withwhen we did open, I couldn't
keep up with it until about sixmonths ago I reopened it.
So even now it's only on aboutfive or six, like it's not it's
(28:04):
not like a huge account, but itwas it, it I feel like it was
how I use the social media notto boost my own ego, but it was
quite smart.
And I feel like in my head,like I thought to myself, right,
if I get a list of patients,I'll be able to prove to James
that it's gonna work.
And as it was, it actually alsohelped us get the loan.
So, but for me, it was like,Come on, James, I can prove to
(28:24):
you, I'm gonna have this hugelist of people.
Like it was just a bit ofdreaming, really.
But yeah, it ended up beingquite useful.
Dr James (28:31):
Yeah, flipping hats off.
I'm I'm impressed.
I've never come across that asa strategy before, and I think
it's probably a reason for it.
I think it's really cool.
There we are.
Anyway, let's move on, let'sfast forward to the future.
Now, first squat went well, gotit up, got it running,
everything along those lines,and you went back for more.
You opened another squat.
James (28:53):
Yeah, it just opened uh November this year, it's a
couple of months delayed.
Um, but yeah, it's because ofthe business model works
slightly different, so we relyon new patients, so we don't
have a patient list really.
Um, so then it's because we'rewe have we have the internal
workflow so much so that we canjust attract new patients every
month, then we were like, okay,well, if we just open, you know,
(29:14):
we just need another location,another building, another
practice, and we because we wehave a whole new practice
basically starting every fewmonths anyway, a whole new
influx of patients.
Um so we feel it because we'vegot that sort of process uh
going well, um, it didn't seemas daunting opening up an ex
location.
It's not like we're trying toset up and build a patient list
gradually.
(29:35):
Um, it's very heavy marketing,very you know, on the on the
internal work process that uhyeah, it it wasn't too much of a
a strain on the business to dothat.
Dr James (29:45):
Yeah, so it gets easier, is what you're saying.
Katy (29:49):
No, no, oh no, definitely not, definitely not.
I I thought it was hard first.
I thought it was hard firstdoing the um first practice, and
I thought, oh, it'll never getharder than that.
Now we've got the brand, we'vegot like how we design things,
like we could never possiblyhave it as hard financially, um,
because there was some reallike kind of troughs financially
(30:09):
as we went through it and wejust battled through it.
Um and then often in the secondone, I I think that's been so
much more stressful becauseyou're changing from a practice
into a business, you know, andinstead of when you first opened
the squat practice, fine, youknow, we had we had um more than
just ourselves, we had a fewpeople all joining together at
the same time.
(30:30):
But then this time we had alittle personal goal to say, can
we set this practice up withoutworking in it?
Just as I don't know, a littlegoal like that, you know, if we
needed to work in it, of coursewe would, but just a personal
goal.
You've got so many new peoplearriving all in one time.
You then need to fill thediaries with that for that as
well.
So you've got to get you've gotto start splitting your
(30:52):
business into departments, whichis where James comes in for the
smartness of all that, to befair.
I can't take credit for this.
This is James.
James (30:59):
No, it's both of us, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's it's yeah, it's makingeverything systemized.
I mean, you've got to optimizeyour systems, and you it, you
know, make sure you're marketingthat system's nailed, then
you've you've got your bookingsprocess is nailed, then you're
you're when the patient comesin, the patient journey inside
the practice is nailed, uh, andthen the follow-up, how your
patient's followed up.
It's all that side that we'retrying to optimize when you're
(31:20):
not there.
So you need your systems toplay in, you need your managers
to be able to manage the systemseffectively.
I it's really different runningtwo to running one, we've
realized.
So it's difficult in adifferent way.
Katy (31:31):
And so many more managers as well.
Like instead of having one solomanager that's kind of in
charge of so much, you'reemploying then more managers
alongside, and you need to makethem all work um well together
and keep each other in the loopand um all of that, I suppose.
It's it's just it's verydifferent to what we thought
it'd be.
Dr James (31:52):
Yeah.
Well, we were talking just offcamera, weren't we, about the
emyth book, weren't we?
And we all agreed that thelogic in that book is super
pertinent for any business thatwants to scale, not just scale,
but even just grow in the firstinstance, and to stop, you know,
stop taking 18 hours a day ofthe owner's time.
(32:13):
Uh, so shout out that bookagain if anybody has not read
it, who's a listener to theDennis Invest Podcast, because
it's friggin' phenomenal.
And I didn't read that book forso long because I felt like I'd
absorbed all of the informationin it through osmosis, through
conversations, and then Ieventually got around to reading
it like six months ago, and Iregret that I didn't read it
sooner.
So if I can inspire anybody toread that book, it plays into
(32:36):
exactly what you guys aresaying.
And I know, James, that yousaid you were a fan of it as
well, right?
James (32:40):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I got recommended it by uh agood friend of mine, actually.
Um, but it's so true, andbecause if you if you if you run
it as a yeah, because insummary, it's like it's very
different being the um how doyou put it, being the business
or like being the dentist in thepractice to running a dental
practice, you know, because it'sthere's so much margin for
(33:01):
error if you're the mainpractitioner, you know, and
you're not paying the 40 to 50percent associate split, you've
got so many, you know, potentialholes that you're plugging by
the fact that you're being themain practitioner in there.
Um, you know, you might bespending too much on your stock
or your lab costs or yourmarketing or your wages,
anything that you can plug.
So you can't you don't realisethe holes in your business
because you're plugging themeasily.
(33:22):
Um and yeah, the difference ofum just being the main being the
practitioner in there versusrunning the business.
It's working in the businessversus working on the business,
and until you take yourself outof working in it, then you can't
get a proper bird's eye view ofhow your business is actually
performing.
Uh, is it a business or is itactually a ball and chain?
(33:42):
And you might be better being aso being an associate and being
able to go to just cut off atfive o'clock and yeah, yeah,
it's a nicer life.
Dr James (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, they're in the business, on the business,
a dash is the perfect one, andit's it's so true.
So many people will be able torelate to that.
Fun fact on the emyth, by theway, there's actually a
dentist-specific version.
No, it's actually it exists,that exists.
I think it's American though,so I don't know how applicable
it will be to the UK, but it'sliterally called.
(34:12):
I'm just looking at it becauseit's on my bookshelf over here.
It's called the EMythRevisited, uh the dental version
or something along those lines.
It's on Amazon.
Oh, really?
Fun, fun fact.
Yeah, take a look at it.
It's on it might even be wortha browse.
Who knows?
There might be something inthere to learn.
James (34:29):
You'll definitely get that.
I like my books, yeah.
Dr James (34:32):
Anyway, yeah, I I'm actually surprised that I
haven't picked it up yet.
But my curiosity more thananything else, even though I
don't own a dental practice, Ijust want to know what it says.
But yeah, I'm pretty prettysure it's American, so I don't
know how applicable it'll be,but I'd be interested to hear.
Anyway, what does the futurelook like for you guys?
More squats.
James (34:49):
Well, I mean, we're currently expanding our addition
our first one at the moment, sothat's due to open next week.
Katy (34:55):
Oh, yeah.
James (34:56):
Um, so we've just added on a couple of extra surgeries.
Um, so I've got this right.
Dr James (35:04):
This is in the second squat.
You're adding more surgery toit, and they're opening soon,
correct?
First one.
The first one, first one,right.
Katy (35:11):
So we're taking over the full unit next door um at the
first one.
So it's basically a bit likepractice number three because
it's costing the same amount tobe honest.
Um, but we're having an on-sitelab, um, three extra surgeries,
a boardroom upstairs forcollaborative uh work in between
all the dentists becauseeveryone plays to the strengths
um within the practice, so theycan you know sit with cases and
(35:33):
discuss all the differentaspects or say what they do,
like just essentially it'spotentially very useful.
Um, and then the upstairs areathat's for kind of like a lot of
behind the scenes, so likebookings, after sales, um
marketing, yeah, yeah, accountsand admin type thing.
James (35:54):
So, yeah, we're adding that that opens next week.
Um touch wood.
Yeah, if everything goes okay.
Yeah.
Um but then after sorry, sorry,yeah.
Oh no, I was gonna say afterthat, then it's just we've got
want to get everythingfunctioning smoothly.
Um so get yeah, make build theteam, make sure everything's
working well, and then whoknows?
It would be it would be good touh keep going on the business
(36:15):
journey.
It would be good for sure.
Katy (36:17):
The reality is is that we're gonna keep doing it and
we're gonna keep doing morebranches, even though we keep
saying to each other we're gonnaslow down, but we just can't
help it.
Like the second a build isdone, we're gonna be on to the
next one.
Because I don't really knowwhy, but we probably definitely
will.
Dr James (36:32):
I get I get it, I get it though, because it's it's the
drive that's got you to whereyou are that's still gonna be
present, even when you get thenext one and the next one and
the next one.
James (36:41):
Yeah, it's true.
Dr James (36:41):
Are you with me?
Like the drive doesn't goanywhere, it's it's continues to
be there, and how it manifestsis expansion, but that's fine as
long as you're enjoying thejourney, right?
Is that how you both feel?
James (36:51):
Yeah, I mean, well, well, more my I the thing I say to
Katy is like when the sun isshining, like hey, and it I love
that saying, like we live bythat.
It's as things are going well,you know, the business model,
the the economic climate isdoing okay for for our business
model, and as as as the businessis is working and functioning
well, then take advantage ofthat because you never know what
might might happen in thefuture of dentistry and the
(37:13):
future of the market.
So um, while you've got theopportunity there, then yeah,
you should do it.
Well, you've got your health,you've got your time, you've got
everything, then yeah, you'd befool to let it go.
Um, but yeah, you yeah, it'sit's it's a sacrifice.
Katy (37:26):
I'd say I'd say I'm the issue that we probably have is
that I'm very like next thing,next thing, next thing, next
thing, next thing.
So I'll be like, James, right,fantastic.
I want to go on holiday now.
James, let's do this, James,let's do that.
Why don't we move house?
Why don't we do anotherpractice?
And James's like, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, Katy.
We need to keep a nice, stable,steady ship.
Dr James (37:46):
Yeah, I think that's why you're a good team, though.
Because you have you kind ofhave to have both energies,
don't you?
And you kind of balance eachother out, right?
Is that fair to say?
James (37:55):
Yeah, I think so.
I think we'd be too slow if itwas just if it was just me.
I'd want, yeah, I'd be I'd be abit slow.
Um, but then if it's Katy, it'dbe very, very an empire.
Katy (38:03):
If it was just me, I say it being and I'm joking, I'll
take you back.
It'd be too fast and it'd burndown properly if it was me.
Dr James (38:09):
No, yeah, true.
No, I I know what you meanbecause it's it's actually
there's actually, you know, theyin and yang, that's the two
energies, right?
Yin yang is like the let's dothings, right?
Yin is more like, hey, youknow, let's just see what
happens or let's just thinkabout it, sort of thing.
And there's a reason why thethe little symbol, the little
tau symbol is the way it is.
It's kind of because theybalance each other out, and you
(38:31):
have to have both.
I find that fascinating when Iheard it, and it actually
relates to business becausethose are the two primaries
energies.
You have the doer energy andthe more passive receptive
energy.
You were talking about quotesthat you really like earlier.
There's one that I absolutelylove, and that is a calm sea
never made a strong sailor.
That's good.
That's good.
Katy (38:51):
I like that.
Dr James (38:52):
Yeah, right.
And it's basically the can't ifyou the sea was the ocean
wasn't choppy, you'd never learnhow to muster the ship, you
know, handle the ship and beable to control it and what have
you.
And it's like when you put whatyou what it's saying is when
you put yourself out there inbusiness, that's sometimes how
you learn the best lessons.
And that never happens unlessyou go through that process.
James (39:11):
Yeah, it's like I there's a quote that I knew from before
we started, just sorry, you'vegot my love square.
But it's like uh it was I heardit from Tony Robbins, whether
he said it originally.
Um, but he said burn the boats.
Katy (39:21):
Yeah.
James (39:22):
Um, and it's like, yeah, you had you know, when you're
trying to take over an islandand you've got your army, then
the best way to make sure thatyou take over the island is when
you land on it to burn theboats, because then you've got
no way other than to you know tomove forward.
And it's true, and it's like,yeah, so that's what yeah, so
but so we had these littlethings in our heads, these
little sayings we'd say to eachother when we first opened,
because like we didn't keep ourassociate jobs, we just went
full into it, and we were like,just you have to make it work,
(39:44):
and then we've done it again.
You because I think when you'reexpanding, it's just you
constantly re-risk and re-riskand re-risk everything you have.
You know, you've worked foryears and you've accumulated
some capital and you've um youknow things are going well, and
you just risk it all again andthen do a squat, but yeah, you
you just constantly have to keepburning the boats.
Dr James (40:02):
Let's round things off on a really nice note.
Let's say James and Katy, righthere today in 2025, could go
back and talk to those youngerversions of themselves when they
were just thinking aboutstarting their squat, they
hadn't committed to any pathjust yet.
And you could put a hand,James, you could put a hand on
(40:23):
that version of yourself ontheir shoulder, and Katy, you
could do the same to yourself.
We could probably have some funwith this because you we could
also do what you would say toeach other as well, maybe.
But let's keep it simple.
Let's keep it simple.
Then they would get layers toit.
Let's keep it simple.
So just speaking to yourselves,when you're about to start, you
could say one piece of advice.
(40:43):
What would that be?
Katy, let's have you first.
Katy (40:46):
Oh, I was gonna say James first.
Um do you know what?
Right, I saw for Valentine'sDay, I got James these cards, so
we had to speak to each otherand like find out so much about
each other.
Um, I don't really know why, Ijust saw it on TikTok so I
(41:09):
bought it to be honest.
But um one of the cards was umlike what would you what would
you do to change or somethinglike that?
And I feel like I don't want tocome across as arrogant or
sound arrogant at all, but I I II don't like to have regrets.
So like what would I tellmyself or what would I change?
Probably nothing apart fromjust like never stop bel this is
(41:35):
gonna sound bad, but never stopbelieving in yourself, just
keep pushing forwards.
I don't know.
I I that's that's mine.
I'm not sure if that's likegood or bad.
Dr James (41:46):
That is perfectly good.
Imagine, imagine hearing the uhyou know future version of
yourself saying that to you,like you're doing the right
thing.
Imagine how much convictionyou'd have.
Katy (41:56):
I still did at the time, that's the issue.
Dr James (41:59):
Oh, right.
It wasn't possible to haveanymore.
I understand.
I understand.
Katy (42:04):
I just for me, my saying has always been where there's a
will, there's a way.
And I'd I'd I can rememberrepeating it to myself like
really, really, really youngthrough exams and everything,
and I would just cling tosomething.
And the way that I would lookto try and achieve goals is I'd
think to myself, right, Katy, ifyou pass this exam or if this
is successful, how would youfeel?
And then I'd get you know, getdreams inside my head, and I'd
(42:25):
be like, Okay, if you don't passyour exam and you don't do
this, or you you don't strive todo this, how are you gonna
feel?
And then I'd think, oh, I'dfeel like a failure and like
really beat myself up.
And then I'd think, right,well, no choice then.
And I'd just go for it.
So that's kind of I'm very liketwo extremes.
Dr James (42:42):
Wow, that was a little TED talk right there, in and of
itself.
I love that.
I'm so glad I asked thatquestion.
That developed into its ownlittle pep talk or motivational
speak.
I flipping love that that wascool.
Thank you, Kitty.
Katy (42:54):
James is so much more the TED talk.
Dr James (42:58):
The bar's up here.
Oh no.
Katy (43:01):
Come on, James.
James is the TED talk person,what is it?
James (43:05):
No, I'm not definitely not.
Um I I think I would say,especially because I was only
25, I think I'd say you've gotum to still to go for it.
You've got uh you've still gotyou've got so much time if
anything goes wrong that you canrecover.
So I'd say, you know, the oneof the biggest things that's
(43:25):
valuable in life that I found istime.
You know, it's there's nevergoing to be the right time.
There's always gonna be areason why you shouldn't do it.
Yeah, um, so I'd say just gofor it.
What's the worst that happens?
Like what's the worst thathappens?
It doesn't work, and then whereare you back to?
You're back to working yourassociate job and working as a
dentist again, which is whatyou're doing at the moment.
Katy (43:41):
Yeah.
James (43:41):
And it's what you're doing at the moment.
So you don't lose anything, butinstead you've gained the
knowledge, you've gained theexperience, and you've seen that
it's probably not as bad as youthink when you fail.
So um I'd say go for it, yeah.
What would ever come over if somebody to start a
squat at the age of twenty-five?
Well, pull that thought becausethat's the question that you
can ask my two amazing guests inthe Dentists Who Invest Podcast
today.
James and Katy Nolan didexactly that and then since went
on to start a further squat.
A little later, a few yearsdown the line, we're going to be
talking about their journey,what possessed them to make that
decision way back in the day atsuch young age, the trials and
(02:04):
tribulations that theyencountered, and their words of
wisdom to anybody who is aboutto embark upon that journey.
As ever, you can claim your CPDfor this episode within the
official Dentists Who InvestSmart Money Members Club.
Smart Money Members Club alsoincludes multiple mini courses
and webinar series on financefor dentists, including how to
become as tax efficient aspossible, as well as
(02:25):
understanding investing.
All of this content counts asverifiable CPD, and you can
download your certificates thereand then upon completion of
each lesson.
In addition to this, we alsoinclude a whopping 10% discount
on your dental indemnity and 5%discount on lab bills for dental
principals, amongst other perksand discounts for members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
(02:47):
verifiable CPD for this episode.
Guys, Kitty and James, let'scut to the chase.
The exact title of thispodcast, What comes over
somebody to start a flippingsquat at 25?
First of all, hats off to youboth.
You do know you've donesomething amazing, right?
(03:07):
Thank you.
Um yeah, it's really Yeah,yeah, we're great.
No, I'm kidding.
James (03:12):
No, don't I think yeah, more I don't know, more um,
probably naivety and ignorancelooking back, but a big dream.
Um, yeah, I think what wouldyou say?
Katy (03:24):
I'd say, yeah, dreaming and naivety, definitely.
I'd say we met at university,so like part of the talking
point was, you know, do we wantto have a practice one day?
And we wanted it to be glassfronted.
And yeah, we just literallywalked across across the complex
once, and it was had all bigglass fronts.
We don't, we'd not even beenlong since graduated, and we
(03:45):
just kind of looked at it and Iwas like, James, we've got to do
it.
James (03:49):
Yeah, wow, and then we just decided, yeah, and then we
we knew what we wanted tocreate, and then we just kind of
we have a good work, we have agood work ethic looking back,
and we just yeah, did what ittook to make it happen.
Katy (04:02):
Stubborn, stubborn stubbornness is like one of the
biggest things that we had.
Like if we like if we weregoing to do it and we're going
to make it happen, we were sostubborn we'd have put our
through selves throughabsolutely anything to make it
work, which is a good qualityand a bad quality, because we
would sacrifice our life for ittoo.
Dr James (04:20):
Well, you gotta, that's how it works, at least at
the start, right?
And there's there's there's asaying, and I can't remember the
exact saying, I'm not evengonna attempt it today, uh, but
in case I butcher it.
But it's something along thelines of naivety is your biggest
superpower, uh, especially atthe start, whenever you start a
business, because you just youalmost know so little about the
situation that you're not scaredof the downside or potential
(04:42):
negative things can happenbecause you don't even know what
they are, and then thereforeyou just go for it.
James (04:47):
Yeah, I think that that that would be it.
Like we were relatively freshout of university, we were about
three, three years out, two,two years out, two, three years
out.
Um, so you only have limitedexperience.
Um, and you can see the gaps inthe practices where you work,
and we could see you know theholes that we could fill.
Katy (05:05):
Yeah.
James (05:06):
But then I don't think we really saw the behind full
behind the scenes of running apractice, and I don't think you
really truly appreciate it untilyou're actually doing it.
You know, all the other costsunderstanding you need of like
the marketing, the sales, youknow, just the general business
overheads and controlling those,and that's how you it's not
just a practice where you dodentistry, it's a it's a full-on
business.
Dr James (05:26):
Um yeah, you know what, we should totally talk
about that, and we willdefinitely cover that as the
podcast progresses.
I guess the first thing thatsprings to my mind is why don't
you just go and buy a dentalpractice that was already set
up?
Because they say that's theeasier path versus a squat.
James (05:42):
I mean, for for my answer, I would say um if you're
buying a practice, uh you'rebuying someone else's deco, uh,
someone else's fit out.
So you have to confine, youknow, uh you're you're limited
to how they've made theaesthetic of the practice look,
and then you're buying thegoodwill, and goodwill is very
expensive.
(06:03):
So I feel like it's a saferoption because you're buying and
you've got immediate cash flowfrom day one.
But if we were buying apractice, I think we'd look for
one that we could do animprovement with.
So we'd probably want toimprove the marketing, we'd
probably want to refurb it,probably want to get new
patients in either way.
I mean, it's like, well, ifthey're the problems that you're
gonna solve when you buy thepractice, then you can save the
goodwill and you can fit oneout.
(06:23):
Um, and yeah, you can do themarketing yourself.
Um, I I think it's it's alittle more cost-effective at
our time of setting up, wedidn't have the funds required
to purchase the practice.
We couldn't have purchased one,um, but we could set one out,
set one up.
Um, yeah, what would you say?
Katy (06:42):
I don't want to sound controversial.
Dr James (06:44):
So if you need to cook, it's fine, it's it's
allowed on this podcast.
Well, actually, listen, Ishould be careful then because I
have no idea what's going tocome out of your box.
This could be anything.
Katy (06:54):
I'd say going back to like the dreaming aspect, I'd say I
didn't want to buy somebodyelse's dream.
Like for me, like we had ourown and we'd done it for so many
years, like we knew what wewanted.
Like, I did I didn't want tobuy somebody else's chair,
walls, team members.
I wanted to pick my own, likelike everything.
Like yeah, I I want it, andalso as well when you're buying
(07:18):
somebody else's practice, youdon't know whether somebody is
potentially kind of like set itup to sell.
You don't know what you'repotentially walking into.
I you know, you're potentiallygonna walk into a whole
curveball full of problems.
Not that I'm saying thatsomebody potentially do it on
purpose, but just in case it'snot it didn't, I didn't want it
to be my first experience.
Um, so yeah, I'd say that, andthen also, yeah, it was cost
(07:40):
effective.
Like we we got it, we wemanaged to build a loan, and
then COVID happened.
The loan got halved, so we hadto halve the build and then
build up in stages.
So even if we wanted to buysomebody else's practice, it
just was not going to happen.
Dr James (07:54):
Yeah, and you know what?
I don't want to sidetrack thispodcast too much, but if we pull
this podcast into the presenttense and we speak from where
you guys are right now, was itthe right choice?
James (08:06):
There's a few things I'd I'd say to answer that.
Yeah, I think business-wise forsure, uh personal life-wise,
definitely not.
Um yeah, like yeah, we haven'tbeen a holiday for years, or you
yeah, since 2017, Katyremembered.
Not as a couple, not as acouple.
Katy (08:21):
We have been a holiday, but it doesn't count unless you
go as a couple, but no, itdoesn't, we went and we don't
really do dates.
James (08:26):
We don't really yeah, for years we didn't have a life for
many, many years.
And it's uh um that's where thenaivety comment comes back in.
We didn't realize what we'regetting ourselves into.
I think if we truly knew theextent that we're getting into,
I think we'll probably still doit.
Katy (08:37):
But like um that's because we're stupid.
James (08:39):
You've probably ever thought about that.
Um, but business-wise, forsure, for sure.
It means it it's I think youlearn a lot of lessons having to
set everything up from scratch.
There's no systems, noprocesses, no employee.
Like you you've just got to doeverything from scratch.
I think the knowledge andexperience you gain from setting
up from scratch is um yeah,it's it's priceless.
It's not only about thefinancial side, it's where we
feel now in terms ofunderstanding the dental
(09:01):
business model, even thoughwe're we're nowhere when we want
to be, but um it it's reallyvaluable.
Katy (09:07):
I'd say part of the romance of it as well, like
which drove the full thing to befair, is we wanted to spend all
of our time together.
Um, not just me, both of us,but um, we wanted to spend all
our time together, so it itallowed for that.
But I would say when they saylike business can be make or
break for relationships, I I cansee that like we've had to be
able to work together all thetime.
(09:30):
And you know, you're constantlytalking about business or you
you're constantly thinking aboutsomething or something like
that.
It's yeah, I feel like I weknew we had a strong
relationship, but we definitelyneeded to have a strong
relationship to be able to justsacrifice everything and give
everything our all to thebusiness together and show
united front.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr James (09:50):
Wow, love it.
So make sure that therelationship is strong from the
get-go, is is part of your wordsof wisdom.
Definitely is the takeaway fromthat.
Okay, cool.
All right, let's go back to thepast tense.
Let's go to circa the era whenwe started the dental practice.
So, squat, you had your eye onthe market for the squat, uh you
(10:12):
had your eyes out, okay, for agood practice or whatever.
How many people did you go andtalk to beforehand?
Like, how did you what were theactual logistics of making it
happen?
Did you just like full-on gofor it?
Or was there a lot ofmentorship and consideration and
things along those lines?
I'm just curious.
Katy (10:26):
We almost thought we had a bag in at one point, didn't we,
James?
James (10:30):
Well, we yeah, we didn't to be fair, we we didn't have a
mentor, we didn't do any, wedidn't have anyone sort of
guiding us.
Um just a lot of research, alot of research.
Um we looked at we only lookedat one other place, we looked at
one other practice that'd beengoing since 2012, and it's been
10 years at the time.
And due to costs, somehow,yeah, yeah, yeah.
(10:51):
It was um, and then somehow ituh yeah, it didn't have CQC, um,
it didn't have a planningpermission, and we were like,
whoa, okay, how is thatoperating?
Even if we found that at thattime, um, but uh yeah, we kind
of just went at it and wethought, well, if someone else
can do it, then why can't we doit as well?
Katy (11:10):
So with CQC, ours we've made it legal, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
James (11:14):
Just to be clarified.
Um, but yeah, so then it's justyeah, the guidelines and
everything's all like this.
We just I just spent yeah, wejust spent ages reading
guidelines and you know, fullHTML 105 back to front.
Katy (11:24):
That was James.
I can't take credit.
James (11:26):
Yeah, just we were just obsessed with the idea of making
it work.
So we didn't actually speak toanyone before we did it.
We just thought, let's do this.
And wow, and you still pulledit off.
Somehow, somehow.
Katy (11:37):
I feel like I was probably like James is like really,
really good at being by thebook, following the rules and
making sure that we doeverything properly.
And I'm kind of like there,come on, James, it's gonna be
absolutely fine.
Other pull other people havedone it, so we can too, like
where there's a will, there's away, like, come on, it's gonna
be easy.
So then, yeah, I feel like it'sa good teamwork, but James
(12:00):
probably has had a lot of yearstaken from his life, probably.
James (12:03):
I think probably, yeah, I think having a good mentor
would have been would have beenreally helpful though.
Um I think like knowledge issomething that we probably
underestimated and experienced.
You know, instead, we learnedhad to learn from our
experiences as we went along.
Um and if we knew where to findsomeone and we would have
spoken to someone, then it wouldfor sure have been something
that would really helpfulbecause it was it was difficult
(12:24):
and stressful setting up andtrying to navigate it was it's a
maze.
Um building a practice andgetting it going.
You know, we started we hadzero pounds left for marketing,
we didn't know what marketingwas.
We thought people just walk in.
Um, there were so many thingsthat we did wrong, like cash
flow, didn't understand whatcash flow was, so we had nothing
left.
We put it like um, yeah, whichwould have been nice if someone
would have told us this beforewe opened.
Katy (12:45):
Um then again though, it might have put gems off some in
some ways.
I'm kind of glad that we wentinto it a bit blind.
James (12:52):
For sure.
Yeah.
Dr James (12:54):
Well, it just goes back to what I was saying
earlier.
I think it can be your greatestsuperpower, really.
Just a little bit of naivety uhactually can help out.
Not too much, there's like asweet spot there somewhere, but
it sounds like it kind of pannedout for you guys.
So listen, walk me through it,walk me through it.
You've got the practice,they've given you the loan, you
sorted it all out, you're goodto go.
(13:14):
It's opening day.
What's going through your headas 25-year-old?
Surely you remember that daycrisply in here, even though it
was many years ago, because itwas so poignant and uh power,
you know, such a such a hallmarkpart of the journey.
James (13:28):
Yeah, you know, yeah.
Katy (13:31):
Um probably a lot of emotions, partially, thank
goodness, because as with manybuilds, there was delays.
So we'd had the patients bookedin probably like a week before,
and I'd kept on having to movethem.
I remember like I've got aphoto, I don't take pictures of
myself crying, but I've got oneon my phone where I we had like
(13:51):
a full day of patients booked inand I had to move them, and I
was just devastated because Ididn't want to let them down.
And obviously they were fine,they were literally so fine, but
I just put so much pressure onboth of us that I really hated
moving them, but they wereliterally fine.
Um so yeah, I feel like just ahuge, huge, huge relief um when
(14:12):
we actually could open thedoors.
And then yeah, again, we werejust young.
Like I remember there was twostaff members waiting for us in
um what the was the staff roomat the time, and now he's a
surgery.
They were like, Oh, uh, what doyou want us to do today?
And both of us, both of usthought, oh well, they're
qualified, so they know whatthey want to do.
So we're like, whatever youlike, just whatever you'd
(14:32):
normally do, go do that typething.
They just kind of looked at uslike, This is your first rodeo,
isn't it?
James (14:39):
One of them stuck with us, she's actually our
operations manager now, so sheyeah, she's been very, very key
for the journey.
Um, but yeah, I think, yeah,and on the day, you know, no
sleep the night before.
Um, and then yeah, we had a youyou went out about four at six
a.m.
the night before on the morningto buy a desk.
Katy (14:57):
Oh, I was so excited.
So but because uh the loan thatwe got given, the build had
started, and then we kind of gottold like it's it's actually
gonna be half the loan nowbecause of COVID.
So we had to say to thebuilders, right, can we do one
section of the build?
And then we recouped money, didthe rest, then recoup money,
did the rest again.
So we're always kind of used tonow having builds on, which
kind of probably does help withexpansion.
(15:20):
Um but yeah, so the surgery wasthe staff room, and then we
have private private waitingrooms, so pods attached to
surgeries, it's just part of ourdesign.
And um yeah, so James's likeoffice at the time was was
there, and he had no table oranything for his office, and he
was like, It's fine, Katy.
We we don't have the money forit at the moment.
(15:40):
So I was like, No, I'm sure wecan spare 60 pounds.
I woke up really, really,really early to go get this
table before we started the day.
Um, yeah, that's I don't know,that's the day.
James (15:51):
So like I guess, yeah, yeah, it's it's so in summary,
like positivity because it'sgetting going, and your first
patient's walking in the door,and you it's excitement, but
it's also stress because it'scrunch time, so everything has
to work well, and that patientneeds to be given a good
experience.
Yeah, it's the first timeyou're doing it.
Dr James (16:05):
So um and how did it go?
James (16:09):
Really well, really, really well.
Um, yeah, the first day waswent really good.
Katy (16:12):
Our first ever patient still, yeah.
She's she's still stuck withus.
She brought in a family memberto see us recently.
Dr James (16:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh wow, okay.
So it must have been quite agood impression then.
She she's still coming back,she's still there.
Wonderful.
There we are.
James (16:28):
Yeah, that's it.
Dr James (16:29):
And can I ask a question, right?
And I hope this doesn't comeacross as like disrespectful or
blunt in any way whatsoever.
Did you ever have any headwindsin terms of staff or patients
not really giving you thecredibility that you deserve
because you were so young?
Because 25 is young.
You know, when I see25-year-olds now, and they
(16:51):
really do, they look like in anice way, like they look so much
uh you can tell they'rekidding, they're they're so much
fresh-faced and kind of youknow, uh, they look really
young, right?
Don't they, you know?
And did you ever come upagainst any headwinds because of
that or anybody not taking youseriously?
UK dentists, Dentists WhoInvest now has an official
platform where you can learnabout finance and obtain UK
(17:13):
compliant, verifiable CVD at thesame time.
The only platform that existson which you can do both.
The Smart Money Members Clubhas hundreds of hours of mini
courses, webinar series, andlive day recordings on all
things finance slash taxefficiency for UK dentists.
This includes complete courseson how tax works for UK
dentists, finance so that youcan invest and grow your own
(17:35):
money, business so you canimprove your profitability as an
associate or principal, and forthose out there that want it,
there's also a mini course andhow you can responsibly enter
the crypto space using measuredamounts of capital.
I've gathered this content fromthe best of the best I could
find in each respective area sothat you know that this is how
people at the forefront of eachfield advise their clients.
(17:59):
The Smart Money Members Clubalso contains discounts on
common things that UK dentistsneed to pay for on a regular
basis.
This includes a whopping 10%discount on dental indemnity,
the offer to beat your incomeprotection deal no matter what
you're paying, and for theprincipals out there, 5%
discount on lab bills and 10%discount on practice insurance.
(18:19):
These are designed to offerhundreds, if not thousands, in
annual savings.
The purpose of this membersclub is to not only boost your
monthly income but also manageyour outgoings as much as
possible and therefore createmore profit.
To celebrate the launch of theSmart Money Members Club, and
given that the CPD deadline iscoming up soon, I've decided to
offer the first month of thisplatform entirely for free.
(18:41):
This offer will end in thecoming weeks as soon as the
current CPD cycle is up.
To collect your CPD for thispodcast episode using the Smart
Money Members Club, feel free touse the link in the description
of this podcast.
Katy (19:11):
I wouldn't say you you didn't look young, but I think I
I did I think I did look young.
Like at first, I remember Idon't want to say wishing away,
but in a way, kind of wishingaway a couple of years, just so
I didn't sound quite so youngbecause I felt very competent,
and um yeah, I did to be fair.
I felt very confident.
Like at uni, I won a awards formy clinical skills.
James (19:33):
I I felt very competent and ready to kind of thrive and
do well, but yeah, just being alittle bit on that young side, I
found it a little bit of abarrier at some stages, and now
I wish I was that young again,but but I think the sort of you
had in the background the factthat it was your practice, and I
think that kind of meantbecause before we opened, like
you said, you'd have patientscoming in and then they'd say,
(19:55):
Oh, how old are you?
How long have you beenpracticing all this stuff?
Katy (19:58):
Who's the dentist?
Yeah, which one of you is thedentist?
James (20:01):
No way did you get that sometimes, did you?
Then when you have it, it'slike because you owned it, it it
kind of spoke for itself.
You didn't really get as much,yeah, not as much, though, I
think.
Yeah, you're like, Yeah, thisis my place.
Dr James (20:14):
So, yeah, yeah, it's natural, it's gonna happen.
I had that happen to me a fewtimes, you know.
So it just it just is what itis.
Not so much anymore towards theend of my career, and then I I
missed those days.
So if if you're still goingthrough that, anybody who's
listening in the audience, it'sa good thing.
Cling on to those days whilethey're still happening, anyway.
Moving on.
Okay, so you were what wouldyou?
I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you aquestion now.
I'm curious the practiceitself, NHS, private, mixed.
(20:38):
What was the setup?
James (20:39):
Purely, purely private.
Uh no way, seriously.
Yeah, we wow.
We actually we we we didn't doour VT here for one reason or
another.
A few reasons.
For a few reasons, a fewpersonal reasons.
Uh uh, we didn't end up doingVT, so we had to do private, so
we went straight out and didprivate, which gave us the
experience in the privatepractice and seeing how it runs
and and providing privatetreatment to patients.
Um, and then yeah, we gotinsights into how a private
(21:02):
practice ran.
So then we set off.
Uh, you are very artistic,Katy's very artistic, you know,
with with the hands very good.
So uh it was at the time, yeah.
We were like, well, let's setup somewhere where you can
practice your craft doingcosmetic side more, and then but
instead of just doing cosmetic,we want to do everything under
one roof.
So we we we do, yeah, it'spurely private, but we do
everything from specialist orthoto all on four, full implants,
(21:24):
specialist or surgery, cosmetic,veneer, everything.
Katy (21:28):
Um I'd say we were we once did CPD uh practice, and it was
it was a special, it wasn't aspecialist practice, but it had
a lot of specialists in it, andeverybody played to their
strengths.
And I just I remember going tothe CPT and like hearing from
all the different people, and Ijust thought it was absolutely
amazing.
Like everybody gets to go towork and do exactly what they
enjoy all day long, and Iremember seeing the cosmetic
(21:51):
dentist there because that's thething that I was interested in.
It was kind of prior to thedays of cosmetic dentists in a
way, and I remember like lookingat it and thinking, oh my god,
like she's amazing! Like she waslike a superstar to me at the
time.
Um, but yeah, I'd say a big abig thing as well, like why we
didn't do the BT Yeah, a lot ofit stems back to wanting to kind
(22:12):
of like not to be cringy, it isa bit cringy, I suppose, but to
to be together and sticktogether and you know spend all
our time together.
Like, yeah, I've got like thislittle romance love story in my
head.
Dr James (22:24):
That's good.
Okay, well, listen, it seems tohave worked out so far for you
guys because it hasn't held youback because you've achieved all
these brilliant things.
And I think one thing wehaven't mentioned so far is
you've actually got an you'veactually started another squat,
haven't you, as time has goneon.
But let's let's talk on that injust a second, actually.
But just before we do, when youhad the practice itself, did
(22:46):
you have any associates from theget-go?
Or it was just both ofyourself, was it?
James (22:50):
Yeah, we did.
We did, we had uh more, we hadmaybe four or five.
Uh oh wow.
Yeah, so we had a specialist ora surgeon.
We could be a specialistperiodontist, actually, and then
we had uh we had a hygienist,we had a CDT who started with us
as well.
Um that's and two dentistsactually.
(23:13):
Oh, yeah, so we had six.
Um yeah, yeah.
Katy (23:18):
I kind of basically I feel like the way our kind of life
works is I dig us into a bighole, and then James pulls us
back out again.
So, like, cause we were doingthe practice, I was like, right,
it's gonna be amazing.
We've got private pods, it'sgonna be beautiful, it's gonna
be called Vitruvian, and itstands for all of this.
So, and then I just like go onInstagram or something, like
message loads of people, likefind some amazing profiles, be
(23:40):
like, you need to work with us.
And then James would be like,Katy, we have no Never ran a
practice before.
What on earth are you thinking?
James (23:46):
Yeah, it was stress.
But yeah, we started with them,and yeah, the diaries were we
we managed to somehow make thediaries okay.
Uh Instagram.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr James (23:55):
That was the next thing I was gonna ask.
How did you fill the diaries?
Because that's one of thebiggest pain points for a new
dental praxis, particularlysquats.
Uh, it's yeah, how we got theloan.
James (24:05):
Well, initially, yeah, we had a list of patients, but
Katy had uh you did that.
I'll give you all the like yourspectrum.
She'd basically message peoplejust just just on Instagram.
She just had her account andshe just called messaged people
who are in the area.
Katy (24:19):
James, it wasn't quite like that.
James (24:22):
Literally was in the area.
Literally just send them a coldmessage saying, Do you want
your teeth done?
Katy (24:26):
She'd look and see if they had if somebody's not smiling
and showing the teeth, there'soften a reason why.
That's all I'm gonna say.
James (24:31):
Okay, they would offer to fix that.
So literally cold message, butshe ended up with a list of
which was we're fully work fortwo weeks.
There was no money spent, andshe just cold message people,
and then she'd do visual.
Katy (24:40):
There's like six figures the the amount of people that
were wanting to come to us, butit was prior.
Sorry, I put it in.
You speak.
Sorry.
James (24:48):
Oh no, no, no, go, go, go.
Katy (24:49):
No, it was just prior to the days of cosmetic venture.
Sorry, I didn't mean to put inthen I feel bad now.
James (24:55):
But yeah, so she yeah, no, I was giving you credit like
that.
Um, so yeah, so then she hadshe'd do virtual consults,
pretty much set up the treatmentplans, um, obviously buying the
checkup and any general workthey need after the x-rays, and
then we ended up with a waitinglist of um, yeah, it was about
six figures worth within thefirst two weeks.
It was over six figures becausewe needed that to pay off a
second bit of the bill.
Yes, so we we went over budgetwith extras of by about that
(25:17):
amount, so we needed that.
Um, but then we thought yes,there's no market in budget.
Um now we do it reallydifferently.
Now we have a massive marketingbudget, but um, yeah, it was
just so different.
Needs must.
Dr James (25:30):
I'm just blown away that you filled the books with
cool DMs on Instagram.
I mean, fair there must havebeen a lot of cool DMs, right,
to cat the right people, but itworked.
Kitty?
James (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I honestly not like we had nonothing on marketing.
We hadn't set up Google ads, wehadn't set up Meta ads, um, we
hadn't done anything other thanboosting the odd post on uh your
Instagram, which was uh we hadlimited cases on there.
That was it.
So it was just cold DMingpeople, offering them very good
deals um in exchange for like uhtestimonials and
transformations.
(26:04):
Um yeah.
Katy (26:06):
The thing is, is somebody doesn't like I feel like it's so
easy to get afraid of beingembarrassed, but if somebody
doesn't respond, or if somebodylike doesn't acknowledge you or
says, Oh no, sorry, it's not forme, nobody's lost anything.
Like it wasn't a case of mesaying, Oh, you're not smiling
with your teeth.
Like, I didn't give anybody anegative self-esteem or anything
like that.
It'd literally be a case oflike, hi, by the way, like
da-da-da.
(26:27):
Like, you know, respond ordon't respond, that's absolutely
fine.
Like, it it was it's just Idon't know, energy and
excitement.
James (26:35):
You just messaged us that we're opening a brand new
dental practice.
Would you be interested?
Dr James (26:38):
I'm blown away.
I've I I mean it makes completesense that it would work.
I've just never thought aboutdoing that, and I've never heard
of anybody on the podcasteither saying that.
So listen, that that isactually really cool, and I hope
that the listeners are reallytuning in right now because
(26:58):
everybody gets their in a rightsort of how can I say this?
You know, they have a realhang-up on how the books are
gonna fulfill up.
You guys did zero marketing,zero spend, pure just putting in
a shift, messaging peoplehonestly.
Katy (27:13):
It was a lot of work, yeah.
Dr James (27:15):
You can imagine it must have been two of us.
Katy (27:17):
Like it definitely needed two of us.
James (27:20):
Yeah, while you were doing the asking crazy work.
I did the paperwork while youwere doing it, built filming a
diary, and it was like teamwork,good teamwork.
Katy (27:26):
And I know you became very good at messages, James.
Dr James (27:30):
I didn't I know this is a little bit of a crude
question because it's not allabout what I'm about to ask,
like there's other variablessurrounding it as well.
But how many followers did youhave around about that era on
Instagram?
Katy (27:43):
Probably not that many compared, to be fair, probably
like four or five thousand.
Like probably it was reallyprobably not that many,
actually.
Like I've yeah, and then I putmy account on pause for a while
because I couldn't keep up withwhen we did open, I couldn't
keep up with it until about sixmonths ago I reopened it.
So even now it's only on aboutfive or six, like it's not it's
(28:04):
not like a huge account, but itwas it, it I feel like it was
how I use the social media notto boost my own ego, but it was
quite smart.
And I feel like in my head,like I thought to myself, right,
if I get a list of patients,I'll be able to prove to James
that it's gonna work.
And as it was, it actually alsohelped us get the loan.
So, but for me, it was like,Come on, James, I can prove to
(28:24):
you, I'm gonna have this hugelist of people.
Like it was just a bit ofdreaming, really.
But yeah, it ended up beingquite useful.
Dr James (28:31):
Yeah, flipping hats off.
I'm I'm impressed.
I've never come across that asa strategy before, and I think
it's probably a reason for it.
I think it's really cool.
There we are.
Anyway, let's move on, let'sfast forward to the future.
Now, first squat went well, gotit up, got it running,
everything along those lines,and you went back for more.
You opened another squat.
James (28:53):
Yeah, it just opened uh November this year, it's a
couple of months delayed.
Um, but yeah, it's because ofthe business model works
slightly different, so we relyon new patients, so we don't
have a patient list really.
Um, so then it's because we'rewe have we have the internal
workflow so much so that we canjust attract new patients every
month, then we were like, okay,well, if we just open, you know,
(29:14):
we just need another location,another building, another
practice, and we because we wehave a whole new practice
basically starting every fewmonths anyway, a whole new
influx of patients.
Um so we feel it because we'vegot that sort of process uh
going well, um, it didn't seemas daunting opening up an ex
location.
It's not like we're trying toset up and build a patient list
gradually.
(29:35):
Um, it's very heavy marketing,very you know, on the on the
internal work process that uhyeah, it it wasn't too much of a
a strain on the business to dothat.
Dr James (29:45):
Yeah, so it gets easier, is what you're saying.
Katy (29:49):
No, no, oh no, definitely not, definitely not.
I I thought it was hard first.
I thought it was hard firstdoing the um first practice, and
I thought, oh, it'll never getharder than that.
Now we've got the brand, we'vegot like how we design things,
like we could never possiblyhave it as hard financially, um,
because there was some reallike kind of troughs financially
(30:09):
as we went through it and wejust battled through it.
Um and then often in the secondone, I I think that's been so
much more stressful becauseyou're changing from a practice
into a business, you know, andinstead of when you first opened
the squat practice, fine, youknow, we had we had um more than
just ourselves, we had a fewpeople all joining together at
the same time.
(30:30):
But then this time we had alittle personal goal to say, can
we set this practice up withoutworking in it?
Just as I don't know, a littlegoal like that, you know, if we
needed to work in it, of coursewe would, but just a personal
goal.
You've got so many new peoplearriving all in one time.
You then need to fill thediaries with that for that as
well.
So you've got to get you've gotto start splitting your
(30:52):
business into departments, whichis where James comes in for the
smartness of all that, to befair.
I can't take credit for this.
This is James.
James (30:59):
No, it's both of us, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's it's yeah, it's makingeverything systemized.
I mean, you've got to optimizeyour systems, and you it, you
know, make sure you're marketingthat system's nailed, then
you've you've got your bookingsprocess is nailed, then you're
you're when the patient comesin, the patient journey inside
the practice is nailed, uh, andthen the follow-up, how your
patient's followed up.
It's all that side that we'retrying to optimize when you're
(31:20):
not there.
So you need your systems toplay in, you need your managers
to be able to manage the systemseffectively.
I it's really different runningtwo to running one, we've
realized.
So it's difficult in adifferent way.
Katy (31:31):
And so many more managers as well.
Like instead of having one solomanager that's kind of in
charge of so much, you'reemploying then more managers
alongside, and you need to makethem all work um well together
and keep each other in the loopand um all of that, I suppose.
It's it's just it's verydifferent to what we thought
it'd be.
Dr James (31:52):
Yeah.
Well, we were talking just offcamera, weren't we, about the
emyth book, weren't we?
And we all agreed that thelogic in that book is super
pertinent for any business thatwants to scale, not just scale,
but even just grow in the firstinstance, and to stop, you know,
stop taking 18 hours a day ofthe owner's time.
(32:13):
Uh, so shout out that bookagain if anybody has not read
it, who's a listener to theDennis Invest Podcast, because
it's friggin' phenomenal.
And I didn't read that book forso long because I felt like I'd
absorbed all of the informationin it through osmosis, through
conversations, and then Ieventually got around to reading
it like six months ago, and Iregret that I didn't read it
sooner.
So if I can inspire anybody toread that book, it plays into
(32:36):
exactly what you guys aresaying.
And I know, James, that yousaid you were a fan of it as
well, right?
James (32:40):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I got recommended it by uh agood friend of mine, actually.
Um, but it's so true, andbecause if you if you if you run
it as a yeah, because insummary, it's like it's very
different being the um how doyou put it, being the business
or like being the dentist in thepractice to running a dental
practice, you know, because it'sthere's so much margin for
(33:01):
error if you're the mainpractitioner, you know, and
you're not paying the 40 to 50percent associate split, you've
got so many, you know, potentialholes that you're plugging by
the fact that you're being themain practitioner in there.
Um, you know, you might bespending too much on your stock
or your lab costs or yourmarketing or your wages,
anything that you can plug.
So you can't you don't realisethe holes in your business
because you're plugging themeasily.
(33:22):
Um and yeah, the difference ofum just being the main being the
practitioner in there versusrunning the business.
It's working in the businessversus working on the business,
and until you take yourself outof working in it, then you can't
get a proper bird's eye view ofhow your business is actually
performing.
Uh, is it a business or is itactually a ball and chain?
(33:42):
And you might be better being aso being an associate and being
able to go to just cut off atfive o'clock and yeah, yeah,
it's a nicer life.
Dr James (33:50):
Yeah, yeah, they're in the business, on the business,
a dash is the perfect one, andit's it's so true.
So many people will be able torelate to that.
Fun fact on the emyth, by theway, there's actually a
dentist-specific version.
No, it's actually it exists,that exists.
I think it's American though,so I don't know how applicable
it will be to the UK, but it'sliterally called.
(34:12):
I'm just looking at it becauseit's on my bookshelf over here.
It's called the EMythRevisited, uh the dental version
or something along those lines.
It's on Amazon.
Oh, really?
Fun, fun fact.
Yeah, take a look at it.
It's on it might even be wortha browse.
Who knows?
There might be something inthere to learn.
James (34:29):
You'll definitely get that.
I like my books, yeah.
Dr James (34:32):
Anyway, yeah, I I'm actually surprised that I
haven't picked it up yet.
But my curiosity more thananything else, even though I
don't own a dental practice, Ijust want to know what it says.
But yeah, I'm pretty prettysure it's American, so I don't
know how applicable it'll be,but I'd be interested to hear.
Anyway, what does the futurelook like for you guys?
More squats.
James (34:49):
Well, I mean, we're currently expanding our addition
our first one at the moment, sothat's due to open next week.
Katy (34:55):
Oh, yeah.
James (34:56):
Um, so we've just added on a couple of extra surgeries.
Um, so I've got this right.
Dr James (35:04):
This is in the second squat.
You're adding more surgery toit, and they're opening soon,
correct?
First one.
The first one, first one,right.
Katy (35:11):
So we're taking over the full unit next door um at the
first one.
So it's basically a bit likepractice number three because
it's costing the same amount tobe honest.
Um, but we're having an on-sitelab, um, three extra surgeries,
a boardroom upstairs forcollaborative uh work in between
all the dentists becauseeveryone plays to the strengths
um within the practice, so theycan you know sit with cases and
(35:33):
discuss all the differentaspects or say what they do,
like just essentially it'spotentially very useful.
Um, and then the upstairs areathat's for kind of like a lot of
behind the scenes, so likebookings, after sales, um
marketing, yeah, yeah, accountsand admin type thing.
James (35:54):
So, yeah, we're adding that that opens next week.
Um touch wood.
Yeah, if everything goes okay.
Yeah.
Um but then after sorry, sorry,yeah.
Oh no, I was gonna say afterthat, then it's just we've got
want to get everythingfunctioning smoothly.
Um so get yeah, make build theteam, make sure everything's
working well, and then whoknows?
It would be it would be good touh keep going on the business
(36:15):
journey.
It would be good for sure.
Katy (36:17):
The reality is is that we're gonna keep doing it and
we're gonna keep doing morebranches, even though we keep
saying to each other we're gonnaslow down, but we just can't
help it.
Like the second a build isdone, we're gonna be on to the
next one.
Because I don't really knowwhy, but we probably definitely
will.
Dr James (36:32):
I get I get it, I get it though, because it's it's the
drive that's got you to whereyou are that's still gonna be
present, even when you get thenext one and the next one and
the next one.
James (36:41):
Yeah, it's true.
Dr James (36:41):
Are you with me?
Like the drive doesn't goanywhere, it's it's continues to
be there, and how it manifestsis expansion, but that's fine as
long as you're enjoying thejourney, right?
Is that how you both feel?
James (36:51):
Yeah, I mean, well, well, more my I the thing I say to
Katy is like when the sun isshining, like hey, and it I love
that saying, like we live bythat.
It's as things are going well,you know, the business model,
the the economic climate isdoing okay for for our business
model, and as as as the businessis is working and functioning
well, then take advantage ofthat because you never know what
might might happen in thefuture of dentistry and the
(37:13):
future of the market.
So um, while you've got theopportunity there, then yeah,
you should do it.
Well, you've got your health,you've got your time, you've got
everything, then yeah, you'd befool to let it go.
Um, but yeah, you yeah, it'sit's it's a sacrifice.
Katy (37:26):
I'd say I'd say I'm the issue that we probably have is
that I'm very like next thing,next thing, next thing, next
thing, next thing.
So I'll be like, James, right,fantastic.
I want to go on holiday now.
James, let's do this, James,let's do that.
Why don't we move house?
Why don't we do anotherpractice?
And James's like, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, Katy.
We need to keep a nice, stable,steady ship.
Dr James (37:46):
Yeah, I think that's why you're a good team, though.
Because you have you kind ofhave to have both energies,
don't you?
And you kind of balance eachother out, right?
Is that fair to say?
James (37:55):
Yeah, I think so.
I think we'd be too slow if itwas just if it was just me.
I'd want, yeah, I'd be I'd be abit slow.
Um, but then if it's Katy, it'dbe very, very an empire.
Katy (38:03):
If it was just me, I say it being and I'm joking, I'll
take you back.
It'd be too fast and it'd burndown properly if it was me.
Dr James (38:09):
No, yeah, true.
No, I I know what you meanbecause it's it's actually
there's actually, you know, theyin and yang, that's the two
energies, right?
Yin yang is like the let's dothings, right?
Yin is more like, hey, youknow, let's just see what
happens or let's just thinkabout it, sort of thing.
And there's a reason why thethe little symbol, the little
tau symbol is the way it is.
It's kind of because theybalance each other out, and you
(38:31):
have to have both.
I find that fascinating when Iheard it, and it actually
relates to business becausethose are the two primaries
energies.
You have the doer energy andthe more passive receptive
energy.
You were talking about quotesthat you really like earlier.
There's one that I absolutelylove, and that is a calm sea
never made a strong sailor.
That's good.
That's good.
Katy (38:51):
I like that.
Dr James (38:52):
Yeah, right.
And it's basically the can't ifyou the sea was the ocean
wasn't choppy, you'd never learnhow to muster the ship, you
know, handle the ship and beable to control it and what have
you.
And it's like when you put whatyou what it's saying is when
you put yourself out there inbusiness, that's sometimes how
you learn the best lessons.
And that never happens unlessyou go through that process.
James (39:11):
Yeah, it's like I there's a quote that I knew from before
we started, just sorry, you'vegot my love square.
But it's like uh it was I heardit from Tony Robbins, whether
he said it originally.
Um, but he said burn the boats.
Katy (39:21):
Yeah.
James (39:22):
Um, and it's like, yeah, you had you know, when you're
trying to take over an islandand you've got your army, then
the best way to make sure thatyou take over the island is when
you land on it to burn theboats, because then you've got
no way other than to you know tomove forward.
And it's true, and it's like,yeah, so that's what yeah, so
but so we had these littlethings in our heads, these
little sayings we'd say to eachother when we first opened,
because like we didn't keep ourassociate jobs, we just went
full into it, and we were like,just you have to make it work,
(39:44):
and then we've done it again.
You because I think when you'reexpanding, it's just you
constantly re-risk and re-riskand re-risk everything you have.
You know, you've worked foryears and you've accumulated
some capital and you've um youknow things are going well, and
you just risk it all again andthen do a squat, but yeah, you
you just constantly have to keepburning the boats.
Dr James (40:02):
Let's round things off on a really nice note.
Let's say James and Katy, righthere today in 2025, could go
back and talk to those youngerversions of themselves when they
were just thinking aboutstarting their squat, they
hadn't committed to any pathjust yet.
And you could put a hand,James, you could put a hand on
(40:23):
that version of yourself ontheir shoulder, and Katy, you
could do the same to yourself.
We could probably have some funwith this because you we could
also do what you would say toeach other as well, maybe.
But let's keep it simple.
Let's keep it simple.
Then they would get layers toit.
Let's keep it simple.
So just speaking to yourselves,when you're about to start, you
could say one piece of advice.
(40:43):
What would that be?
Katy, let's have you first.
Katy (40:46):
Oh, I was gonna say James first.
Um do you know what?
Right, I saw for Valentine'sDay, I got James these cards, so
we had to speak to each otherand like find out so much about
each other.
Um, I don't really know why, Ijust saw it on TikTok so I
(41:09):
bought it to be honest.
But um one of the cards was umlike what would you what would
you do to change or somethinglike that?
And I feel like I don't want tocome across as arrogant or
sound arrogant at all, but I I II don't like to have regrets.
So like what would I tellmyself or what would I change?
Probably nothing apart fromjust like never stop bel this is
(41:35):
gonna sound bad, but never stopbelieving in yourself, just
keep pushing forwards.
I don't know.
I I that's that's mine.
I'm not sure if that's likegood or bad.
Dr James (41:46):
That is perfectly good.
Imagine, imagine hearing the uhyou know future version of
yourself saying that to you,like you're doing the right
thing.
Imagine how much convictionyou'd have.
Katy (41:56):
I still did at the time, that's the issue.
Dr James (41:59):
Oh, right.
It wasn't possible to haveanymore.
I understand.
I understand.
Katy (42:04):
I just for me, my saying has always been where there's a
will, there's a way.
And I'd I'd I can rememberrepeating it to myself like
really, really, really youngthrough exams and everything,
and I would just cling tosomething.
And the way that I would lookto try and achieve goals is I'd
think to myself, right, Katy, ifyou pass this exam or if this
is successful, how would youfeel?
And then I'd get you know, getdreams inside my head, and I'd
(42:25):
be like, Okay, if you don't passyour exam and you don't do
this, or you you don't strive todo this, how are you gonna
feel?
And then I'd think, oh, I'dfeel like a failure and like
really beat myself up.
And then I'd think, right,well, no choice then.
And I'd just go for it.
So that's kind of I'm very liketwo extremes.
Dr James (42:42):
Wow, that was a little TED talk right there, in and of
itself.
I love that.
I'm so glad I asked thatquestion.
That developed into its ownlittle pep talk or motivational
speak.
I flipping love that that wascool.
Thank you, Kitty.
Katy (42:54):
James is so much more the TED talk.
Dr James (42:58):
The bar's up here.
Oh no.
Katy (43:01):
Come on, James.
James is the TED talk person,what is it?
James (43:05):
No, I'm not definitely not.
Um I I think I would say,especially because I was only
25, I think I'd say you've gotum to still to go for it.
You've got uh you've still gotyou've got so much time if
anything goes wrong that you canrecover.
So I'd say, you know, the oneof the biggest things that's
(43:25):
valuable in life that I found istime.
You know, it's there's nevergoing to be the right time.
There's always gonna be areason why you shouldn't do it.
Yeah, um, so I'd say just gofor it.
What's the worst that happens?
Like what's the worst thathappens?
It doesn't work, and then whereare you back to?
You're back to working yourassociate job and working as a
dentist again, which is whatyou're doing at the moment.
Katy (43:41):
Yeah.
James (43:41):
And it's what you're doing at the moment.
So you don't lose anything, butinstead you've gained the
knowledge, you've gained theexperience, and you've seen that
it's probably not as bad as youthink when you fail.
So um I'd say go for it, yeah.
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.