February 12, 2026 • 30 mins
What does it take to build a resilient remodeling business that lasts? We sit down with Jeff Russell of Russell Room Remodelers to trace a 37-year journey from a broadcasting grad to a trusted contractor serving the Twin Cities. The conversation moves from hard-won lessons on pricing and financial literacy to the everyday choices that shape trust inside a client’s home.
Jeff breaks down why many new remodelers undercharge and how to fix it with real numbers: account for every cost, include the life you need to fund, and divide by true billable hours. We dig into the difference between a P&L and a balance sheet, why the balance sheet is your scoreboard, and how those insights guide margin, markup, and cash buffer decisions. A candid story about a flooded kitchen becomes a masterclass in client communication, accountability, and turning a setback into advocacy.
On the growth side, Jeff shares how he hires for values first, uses strengths tools to place people where they thrive, and taps associations and roundtables for mentorship, shared labor, and practical frameworks. We talk about marketing that evolved from newspapers to the Remodelers Showcase, a modern website, and social content that documents real work. You’ll hear a simple shift that changes everything: aim to make marketing a vending machine, not a slot machine, and keep testing channels like Google Local Services with a clear eye on lead quality and cost.
Finally, we explore smart uses of AI—from drafting sensitive client emails to modeling compensation—while stressing verification on technical topics like codes. If you’re a remodeler, designer, or contractor looking to price correctly, hire wisely, market with intention, and communicate under pressure, this conversation is your field guide.
Enjoyed the episode? Follow and subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a quick review to help more remodelers find the show.
If you would like to get the links and show notes for this episode, click on the link below:
- www.designerdiscussions.com/episodes/episode-160-Lessons-From-37-Years-In-Remodeling-with-Jeff-Russell
- Russell Room Remodelers Website
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason Lockhart (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Designer Discussions
with Jason and Miriam.
Today we're actually talking toJeff Russell with Russell Room
Remotters.
Mirjam Lippuner (00:10):
Welcome to the Designer Discussions podcast
with Jason and Miriam.
Tune in each week where we talkabout marketing PR and business
advice for designprofessionals.
Jason Lockhart (00:23):
Hey Jeff, how are you doing today?
I'm doing well.
I'm doing well.
I don't know if you hadlistened to us at the beginning.
We said we're going to starthaving more interviews on our
podcast, which we we used tohave a few on, but now we're
going to have more on.
And we want to have onremodelers that are having
success, and we actually knowyou and know a lot of what's
(00:45):
happened.
So that's why we wanted to haveyou on today.
Jeff Russell (00:47):
Oh, great.
Jason Lockhart (00:48):
Well, thanks for inviting me.
Yeah.
So if you could tell all of ourlisteners just a little bit
about who you are, about RussellRue remodelers, how you got
into it, and where you are rightnow.
Jeff Russell (00:59):
Sure.
So I've been remodeling uh inthe Twin Cities, Minneapolis,
St.
Paul metro area for 37 yearsnow.
Um, it adds up too fast.
And I fell into itaccidentally.
Uh, right out of college, I hada broadcasting degree, but
started working with uh my BillBrinkman, who is my business
(01:22):
partner the first 16 years andfound I love contracting.
I love building, I love problemsolving.
Um and uh I never, I mean, Istill use some of my
broadcasting things.
I I mi sound at my church andI've done some radio things once
in a while, but but I I justlove staying in one location,
(01:44):
being able to serve people.
And um, it's fun to to buildkitchens and bathrooms.
We focus mainly on interiorprojects, um, although we do a
few additions and uh largerthings.
I don't build homes.
Um, we've kind of set thatboundary, and and our target is
uh kitchens, bathrooms, andbasements.
Jason Lockhart (02:04):
Now, from all of the years you've been at this,
what have you learned that uhbecause we often we often have a
lot of younger listeners thatare just getting into the
industry, just beginning theirown company.
So, what kind of advice wouldyou hand him after all your
years of experience?
Jeff Russell (02:20):
Having an attitude where you keep learning uh is
good.
Uh, and then as quickly aspossible, understanding numbers
and pricing for profit and whatit costs.
Because uh most people in ourindustry come into owning a
(02:42):
business after working as acarpenter in the field, and and
they often don't understand thatswitch to charging a good
margin markup uh on products inorder to support the cost of
just being in business.
Um and and so kind of almostlike you know, a good financial
(03:07):
advisor tells you to have a youknow a set of save some money
for a safety fund.
I mean, as a business, pricingfor profit allows you to set
aside some money so that you canhandle those ups and downs.
Um and uh yeah, the customer'salways right is kind of true.
I mean, they may not always beright, but you got to treat them
(03:28):
like they are.
And and often it's uh thosepainful things you learn from
that uh help you figure out whatwhat to do better in the
future.
And I can't I can't tell youexactly what you'll face.
Um, and even after 36 years ofyou know, regular remodeling,
uh, we still have things.
(03:48):
We we had a flood in thekitchen last week.
You know, it's just it ithappens.
Uh but how you handle it, youknow, you gotta make sure I
think it's an opportunity toexcel when things like that
happen.
I hope at the end of this uhkitchen project that the
homeowner, you know, will giveus a good review and I can
(04:09):
interview them, ask them howcould we have handled it better?
And and they become a ravingclient because even though we
flooded their kitchenaccidentally, um, they were on
vacation, the demo personaccidentally turned on the ice
maker line that had beendisconnected and it ran
overnight.
Um, you know, that we're doingour best to clean up, to fix the
(04:33):
issue.
We're not trying to hideanything.
And those, I think those thingsare important because trust in
home remodeling of any sort isprobably the most important
thing.
Jason Lockhart (04:43):
Makes sense.
And you had touched on one ofthe three things that most new
business owners have an issuewith.
One is the pricing, yeah.
One is the operations, all thebehind-the-scenes thing, and
then the other is marketing.
So I'm I'm gonna ask you alittle bit about all, but you
actually uh said something aboutthe pricing.
So let me start there.
So with the pricing, oftentimesnew business owners, they don't
(05:06):
actually charge enough.
Correct.
And they find that out afterthe fact, after they are trying
to do all the operations, payall the overhead and do all this
stuff, and they find out thatway.
But how long did it take you toactually figure out how to
price right?
And how did you figure thatout?
Jeff Russell (05:23):
That's a good question.
Uh I might still be figuring itout sometimes.
Um probably I would sayprobably five years before we
got comfortable, and maybe evenanother five to really settle
in, you know, the first ten.
(05:43):
Um and and one of the things aswe grew that helped me, I mean,
I've done a lot of sales overthe years.
I don't do much now.
Um part of the reason I don'tis because my brain is still in
1990, and you know, I I think weshould be able to remodel a
kitchen for $15,000.
(06:03):
And sometimes we can't buycountertops for that much now.
So um and and and I would saygood training and then learning
what you're learning what you'renot good at and hiring people
that are good at that reallyhelps.
Um yeah, so I think it probablytook five to ten years.
(06:25):
Um uh there's more resourcesnow available.
Um, I mean, you can uh you canput in all your business costs
and ask chat to tell you whatyou should price, and it'll give
you a nice long list and askyou more questions.
And um, we didn't have anythinglike that.
I had to dig for resources onhow to how to price and how to
(06:47):
um, but you still I think it'simportant to learn, to
understand.
You don't have to learn allyour numbers, but I do think
it's important for a businessowner to understand the
difference between uh an incomestatement PL and a balance
sheet.
Um I it was probably three orfour years in before I took a
little course on that.
(07:08):
It was a short lemon lemonadestand accounting was the book.
It's a good book, but it wasactually a one-day course.
And it solidified accounting inmy mind really well.
Um, that a balance sheet's likea scoreboard in a business.
You know, if your balance sheetnumbers are going up, that's
like the score in a basketballgame or a football game.
(07:30):
You should understand what theymean because a lot of
businesses don't.
And if uh if you're makingmoney but your balance sheet is
is slowly going down, that's nota good thing.
Eventually it catches up withyou.
So so kind of learning that Ithink is important.
Um and then understanding, andand a good exercise is to take a
year and and write down all thethings you're gonna have
(07:52):
expenses for, uh, the vacationyou want to take, and then how
many hours do you actually haveto work and take the amount of
money you need to make and allthose expenses and divide it by
the actual hours and say, wow, Ididn't realize I'm gonna charge
that much.
And then add some more becauseyou're gonna forget something.
Jason Lockhart (08:12):
So you had talked a little bit about the
operation.
So you had led into thattalking about the PAL and
hiring.
So that's that's one of thethings also that you know a lot
of small business owners haveissues with is when to hire.
Yeah.
So when did you figure out whenwas when was a good time for
you to hire?
And when did you know, okay,now I could start to hand this
off and do more of the operationside, which a lot of the
(08:35):
business owners have to do?
Jeff Russell (08:37):
Yeah, I think so.
The first year of business, itwas two of us, and I was an
employee.
So my my business partner atthe time, uh Bill Brinkman, had
a degree in business.
He had always wanted to start abusiness, um, and he had lots
of building knowledge.
Um, and I had none of those.
And I had a lot of paintingexperience and uh and a knack
(09:00):
for building, but no training.
Um so it was just the two of uspretty much the first two
years.
We added another person um as apartner.
So, you know, you share somerisk when you're in ownership,
but you also have the challengesof um working together.
And that's that can sometimesbe a challenge.
(09:23):
Um, and then it was probablythat third year we did some
hiring, and we decided to hirebased on selling some larger
projects that were going torequire more labor than we could
provide.
Um we posted jobs, we looked atsome colleges for summer help
because most of our heavy workwas in summer.
(09:44):
Um, so we had some good placesto look, and we were fortunate,
I think, to hire some, you know,skilled but very green
employees in those years.
Um and you learn a little bitwhat you what to look for, you
get better at it.
Um, I think it's probably wisefor a lot of new people in the
(10:05):
industry, if they're hiring, toget a little bit of help from
somebody, whether it's a mentorwho could give you some advice
or um or a hiring agency of someuh sort to help you find them
that has a little higher cost toit, but sometimes if you find
someone who's good at it, itsaves you a lot of time and
effort.
Jason Lockhart (10:25):
I like that.
I like that.
And and having help and oftenreaching out to others is one of
the things most small businessowners don't like to do because
they feel like they got to do itall at sales.
So when did that when did thatrealization help uh hit you that
I need help and I need to askfor help?
Jeff Russell (10:42):
Well, I think early on we kind of decided to
have that learning mentality.
Um, and we got involved withNari and and the Builders
Association.
So I I'd go to some of theirmeetings and you talk to other
remodelers.
And so I think networking likethat helps you to really gain uh
some knowledge.
(11:03):
Um, I got involved pretty earlyon in a round table through
Nari.
And so there were some veryexperienced remodelers there
that I could listen to, and orif I had a problem, I could call
them and bounce ideas off ofthem or say, what would you do?
A couple times I actually, oneof them I called and uh rather
than hire somebody, uh, he hadcarpenters that he just invoiced
(11:26):
me for their time and he knewwhat they cost and made sure
that he covered his costs and Ididn't have to worry about
payroll.
And um, so we kind of shared anemployee for you know a small
project or two.
Um, and that kind of helped.
But I do think networking, andif you're not a if you're not an
(11:46):
outgoing people person, uh ifyou're in business with someone
else, find the one who is to dosome of that.
That helps.
Jason Lockhart (11:54):
Um I agree.
Networking is vital.
And then also, like you said,joining some of the
organizations, NARI, NARI,National Uh you know,
Association of the RemodelerIndustry, NKBA, you know, all of
those, AIA, any of those,because that actually helps you
get in tune and network withother individuals that have been
(12:14):
in business for years that cangive you that information to
help you along.
So that's great.
That's great.
Jeff Russell (12:20):
And subscribe to periodicals, you know, like
Remodeler Magazine and Journalof Light Construction and Pro
Remodeler and Kitchen and Beth,and um, those will have good
resources as well, and oftensome good seminars and things.
And um, you know, it's probably15 almost, well, I think we
(12:43):
joined SEN Design Group maybe 15years in or so.
But being a part of anassociation, I mean they're a
buying group, but being part ofthat put us in touch with you
and put us in touch with othercabinet manufacturers and gave
us some resources.
Um but it kind of takes a whileto build to that.
You kind of gotta you you gottalearn slowly because you can't
(13:05):
take it all on at once.
Um yeah.
And I I'm thankful for that.
I think I had some good peoplearound me.
Um as we added team members toour team, um, I was always
looking more for um characterand abilities uh that align with
(13:28):
our values and and the kind ofbusiness I want to run more so
than the exact skills.
Um, because you can you canteach a lot of skills, but you
know, you can't you can't teachvalues if someone is you know
doesn't have the same values.
Uh it's really difficult.
You're gonna be buttonheads allthe time.
(13:48):
So um and then I had oneemployee who had some training
with um like strengths findersand disc and things.
And so we used a few of thosethings with different employees
to kind of learn our skillsbecause we look at things so
differently.
Um, you know, some people areout there executing, they want
(14:08):
to be in the field, and otherswant to dream, and some people
just want to network and and allof those personality traits a
business needs as it grows.
Um, at first you have to dothem all, and they maybe don't
fit you.
But if you add team members andand you look at where they work
best, um, we all can improveour strengths way more than we
(14:29):
can improve on weaknesses.
So find people are strong inthe things you need, and and
when you hire well, you're like,wow, they did that so much
better than I ever could.
It's amazing.
Jason Lockhart (14:44):
I like that.
I like that.
So now let's talk about themarketing piece.
So that's yeah, something thata lot of business owners view as
a necessary evil.
Yeah.
That's something you have to doto actually stay in business.
So when did marketing becomevital for you?
And what are you doing now inyour marketing?
Jeff Russell (15:04):
Yeah.
We always did some.
When we started, we had ads innewspapers and yellow pages.
No one knows what that isanymore, but there were local
publications in neighborhoodsthat had little newspapers, and
we put an ad in there.
And um, and we kind of took anyjob that came along.
You know, you you learn to atfirst you kind of have to, and
(15:26):
then you learn to limit to whatyou're good at because doing
things you're not good at takestoo much time and energy.
Even if you think you cancharge enough, sometimes it's
not worth it because it theenergy it takes to do it is too
much.
Um, so we always did a littlebit of marketing.
Um, the networking helped withthat.
(15:47):
Uh, in our market, the BuildersAssociation has a remodeler's
showcase that's tied to theparade of homes.
So they do a weekend whereremodelers can show off a
kitchen or a bathroom.
It's expensive.
And um, it was the first timewe did it was probably about 10
years in.
And um, I don't know what itcost back then.
(16:09):
Now it's probably a $5,000investment when we do one or
more.
Um, because I've got staff topay.
It's a weekend and you have anentry fee, but they promote it
well.
Um, and you have people whocome to it, so it's like a
parade of homes, who are lookingto see what a kitchen remote
looks like.
So that was a really goodmarketing event, like
(16:31):
one-on-one, FaceTime.
Um, we didn't even have awebsite when we started because
it didn't exist.
Um we got one fairly quick whenthey started becoming, but it
was pretty clunky back in thosedays.
Um, and we've gone through afew iterations.
I've built some myself and I'mnot good at it.
That's why we hired you to helpus on our last build out.
(16:54):
Um, and now I have someone onstaff who can kind of maintain
it.
And he takes photographs of oursites and he sets up time lapse
and um posts on our Instagramand all of those things.
And so I would say um somethinglike your, you know, designer
discussions, um, kind of regularmeetings where you can learn is
(17:19):
a really good thing.
That helped us to understandthe framework within which you
have to operate now today.
Um, even if I'm not doing itpersonally, I kind of know what
to ask, or I understand a littlebit about what's going on so
that when I hire someone, I knowthey're doing what they should.
Um, but it is it's hard.
(17:40):
It often feels um marketing islike fishing, you know, you're
throwing bait and you don'talways catch something, and you
gotta switch and you gotta trysomething different and find a
new place to fish sometimes.
And and you spend money on onbait, and sometimes it doesn't
catch anything.
And um, but once you figure outwhat does work, then you gotta
(18:03):
kinda you know keep that systemgoing.
And and we're still working onthat.
I don't know that I've dialedthat in yet.
Um, but it can, I think whenyou do it well, it can be more
of a vending machine than a slotmachine.
Like you can get better atknowing where to invest and
you'll get some results ratherthan hoping and pulling that
(18:26):
slot machine and like, well,maybe I'll hit something.
Um uh and again, you know, AItools work really well to help
that.
So can I use that, Jeff?
Mirjam Lippuner (18:38):
It's more like a bit of a machine and it's not
that I actually liked it.
I like that.
I agree.
That's really good.
It's a good analogy.
Jeff Russell (18:47):
I think I heard that from um Randy Stanbury
Stanbury, who runs four level,four level consulting or
something.
He does he does work withremodelers and builders, four
level builder.
I can't remember what it is,but he has some books like 10
reasons that contractors fail.
(19:09):
Um and he has a a network thatuh helps to consult with people
and build businesses.
And I think he's the one Iheard that from.
Uh so I don't want tonecessarily steal it from it if
you said it, but I like itbecause once you kind of and we
know some of those things, butsometimes, you know, if you put
(19:29):
the money in the vending machineand nothing's coming out,
you're like, well, I gotta shakeit and figure out is there
something else?
Or maybe the price went up.
I don't, you know.
I know, you know, and and we'rejust dipping our toe into like
Google Local Services now.
Um, and they're kind of likethe vending machine.
I mean, they will give youleads.
Are they gonna be any good?
Right.
(19:49):
You know, I I don't know yet.
Well, you know, the jury's outright now.
And in my market, it's a littleexpensive.
So, you know, we'll see.
Miriam, did you have anyquestions?
Mirjam Lippuner (20:01):
I mean, I we know a lot of your story, right?
Because we've um had thepleasure of having you in our
program for a couple of years.
And I'm just happy to hear thatthat was helpful because I
think that's a big part of it isit's just uh knowing what you
know and what you don't know andwhen to use it.
(20:22):
And I just want to insert atthis point that you guys are
like one of my favorite successstories when it comes to, yes,
overall, and when it comes toPR, because um, Sharon, your
wife, um who's a part of theteam, right?
And I remember the first yearin the academy, it's like what I
(20:44):
was teaching was really justlike overwhelming and a little
intimidating.
And then you guys stuck it outfor another year and um brought
in one of your designers, andthen you started executing um
the the get quick press strategythat actually and in the first
month you got featured inForbes.
Jeff Russell (21:06):
Yeah.
Mirjam Lippuner (21:07):
Okay, that's amazing.
So um so I I think I don't knowhow we're doing right now.
Jeff Russell (21:13):
I should check with Caitlin and that's okay.
Mirjam Lippuner (21:16):
It also taught me actually that it's a good
idea to have like bursts ofactivity, maybe for two or three
months, and you focus on thatand then you scale it back
before you burn out.
Um but I what I know about youguys is and why you're
successful is because you liketo learn, but then you actually
implement what you learn.
(21:37):
And that is, I think, whatdoesn't always happen.
Jeff Russell (21:42):
Yeah, and it's challenging uh to sometimes do
that.
Um and not that I'm trying toplug Randy at four level, but
we've worked a little with them,and I think their strength is
helping clients implement umfrom a from a production side
and from a sales side, not justthe marketing piece.
Mirjam Lippuner (22:03):
Yeah.
Jeff Russell (22:04):
Um, the the actual whole business piece.
Because it's it's challenging.
There's so many hats you haveto wear as a remodel.
It's an easy business to getinto, um, but it's a hard
business to do well.
And um, I would also recommendto people, you know, do it if
you love it.
If you don't love it, it may bebetter to work for somebody
than to try to work on your own.
(22:25):
Um, just because you gotta havethere has to be kind of it's
that entrepreneurial, you know,some entrepreneurial tests you
can take.
You know, do you have thedesire?
Do you have the the drive to doit?
Because uh if you don't, it'seasier to work for somebody and
a lot less stressful, you know,because it's you can take off
(22:49):
all the time you want, and youjust can never quit working
ever.
You're always, you're alwayskind of, it's always there, it's
always in your head.
You can't believe.
Uh, but it's also wonderful.
I mean, I I love it.
Jason Lockhart (23:01):
One question you had touched on earlier is about
how you use AI.
That's something that a lot ofsmall business owners are either
hesitant with or not using atall.
So, what is your view on AI andhow much are you using it in
your business?
Jeff Russell (23:16):
That's a good question.
Probably not enough.
Um uh, you know, I startedfirst using it for a lot of just
writing tasks in terms ofcleaning up your grammar and
your speech.
And uh, you guys were good atexplaining to us how to kind of
teach it your voice.
Um uh I've used it where it'sbeen, I would say for me, been
(23:40):
really helpful.
Uh when I have a difficultclient situation um like this
flood, the homeowner was onvacation somewhere, they
couldn't get a phone call, onlyemail.
Um, how do I tell them whathappens without scaring them to
death, but without but beingrealistic.
And so look using chat to listall those things, say, can you,
(24:05):
in a professional, non-alarmingvoice, write an email that
summarizes this, and then itpumps one out really nicely, and
then I can read through it andedit it, which I did quite quite
a bit, but it but it got me tothat point of having something
on paper to work with reallyfast, where normally I I
(24:27):
probably would have agonized forfour hours over a communication
like that, you know, because Idon't want to ruin their
vacation, which I probably didanyways, but um, but my goal is
not to.
Uh so it's I've used itprobably next for that.
Uh, and then the newest way I'musing it is more with numbers.
(24:48):
Um, I have a dedicatedsalesperson and I want to switch
how we're paying compensation.
So I've gone through, I'm notdone yet, but a long uh list
with chat.
You know, here's how we'repaying, here's what I'd like to
do, here's the goals.
And it comes back with thingslike you should base it off of,
(25:10):
you know, margin and uh how andhere's the sweet spot.
And if you do it at thisamount, maybe a base plus.
And so I can look at those uhsuggestions real quickly uh and
say, no, I don't like that.
I'd rather have it this way.
And it gives me anothersuggestion.
Um it's not telling me what todo, but it's getting me to where
(25:33):
I need to go or closer to whereI want to be faster.
And I think that's one of thethings that's been really
helpful.
Um, I know there's going to beways we use it more with design
in the future.
Um, my marketing guy who's onstaff did a little quick
Instagram reel with me where isit AI or not?
(25:55):
And he got a whole bunch ofkitchen pictures and had me
guessing whether it was orwasn't.
And it was kind of a fun littledeal.
Um uh because some of them areobvious, uh, but some of them
are pretty good, and you're notquite sure.
And there are a couple I'mlike, no, that's I AI, and he's
like, Oh, that's actually real,it's really that bad.
(26:16):
So, I mean, I think I thinkit's smart to use it.
Um, you can even ask chat howto use itself, you know.
What are the best ways aremodeling business uses chat?
And it'll tell you and you canstart thinking about ways to use
(26:37):
it.
So I would say don't be afraidof it.
Just just start uh pluggingsome questions in and see what
answers it gives you.
It's kind of amazing.
Um, you gotta verify.
So, like uh code things.
I've I've typed in, you know,current Minnesota code is an air
(26:58):
gap required on a countertop orsomething, and it'll list those
details.
It's really good at lists anddetails like that.
But you should always go backand verify because it's
sometimes wrong.
You know, it's gathering fromeverywhere, and maybe it pulled
some data from somebody who, youknow, wrote 15 years ago and it
(27:19):
didn't realize that.
Jason Lockhart (27:21):
As we close out, if the younger Jeff was in your
office right now and he came atthat town with you and say,
after all your years, what wouldyou advise me beginning
remodeling today?
Jeff Russell (27:34):
Hmm.
That's a good question.
Um I think going into all yourjobs and your situations with
um, I think having a uh certainsense of humility, like I don't
know it all.
Um I think that's reallyhelpful with clients if they can
(28:00):
sense that you're there to helpthem and solve a problem, even
if you don't know the answer.
Um sometimes you feel like I'vegot to have the answer.
Uh you don't have to have theanswer, you just have to be
honest that and that you'regonna figure it out and you can.
So I think that uh as well aseverything you approach in the
(28:20):
business side, and then work tobuild habits that are
disciplined to do those things.
So, you know, having a goodroutine, you know, if that's
morning for you or evening,knowing when you do things best
to do your bookkeeping.
Don't don't let it go.
If you don't like doing it,either give it to someone else
or block your time so that youcan get it done.
(28:42):
Because uh, those are thethings that get you into
trouble.
So I like it.
Yeah, and and and network withother people who've done it so
you can learn.
Be a learner.
Served you well.
Jason Lockhart (28:54):
Yep.
So, Jeff, if any of ourlisteners on here want to reach
out to you, how do they do so?
Jeff Russell (29:00):
Oh, sure.
Uh that's fine.
Uh, Jeff, just JFF atroomremodelers.com.
So they could email me.
Simple, and um, yeah, I'd behappy to.
I I've talked to severalremodelers even the last months
who've had some issues thatthey're running into, and and I
I love being able to justencourage or give some pointers
(29:22):
when someone hits a wall onsomething.
Jason Lockhart (29:25):
Awesome.
Jeff, we appreciate your timeand we love having you here.
And for any of our listeners onhere that want to reach out to
Jeff, you know how.
And we hope to hear and seefrom you in two weeks here on
Designer Discussion.
Jeff Russell (29:36):
Great.
Jason Lockhart (29:37):
Thanks.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode of Designer Discussions
and all of the helpfulinformation.
Subscribe to our podcast, leaveus a review, and share it with
your friends.
We look forward to having youback next week for more
information on the podcast andthe marketing studio.
Visit designer discussions.comand follow us on social media.
Hello and welcome to Designer Discussions
with Jason and Miriam.
Today we're actually talking toJeff Russell with Russell Room
Remotters.
Mirjam Lippuner (00:10):
Welcome to the Designer Discussions podcast
with Jason and Miriam.
Tune in each week where we talkabout marketing PR and business
advice for designprofessionals.
Jason Lockhart (00:23):
Hey Jeff, how are you doing today?
I'm doing well.
I'm doing well.
I don't know if you hadlistened to us at the beginning.
We said we're going to starthaving more interviews on our
podcast, which we we used tohave a few on, but now we're
going to have more on.
And we want to have onremodelers that are having
success, and we actually knowyou and know a lot of what's
(00:45):
happened.
So that's why we wanted to haveyou on today.
Jeff Russell (00:47):
Oh, great.
Jason Lockhart (00:48):
Well, thanks for inviting me.
Yeah.
So if you could tell all of ourlisteners just a little bit
about who you are, about RussellRue remodelers, how you got
into it, and where you are rightnow.
Jeff Russell (00:59):
Sure.
So I've been remodeling uh inthe Twin Cities, Minneapolis,
St.
Paul metro area for 37 yearsnow.
Um, it adds up too fast.
And I fell into itaccidentally.
Uh, right out of college, I hada broadcasting degree, but
started working with uh my BillBrinkman, who is my business
(01:22):
partner the first 16 years andfound I love contracting.
I love building, I love problemsolving.
Um and uh I never, I mean, Istill use some of my
broadcasting things.
I I mi sound at my church andI've done some radio things once
in a while, but but I I justlove staying in one location,
(01:44):
being able to serve people.
And um, it's fun to to buildkitchens and bathrooms.
We focus mainly on interiorprojects, um, although we do a
few additions and uh largerthings.
I don't build homes.
Um, we've kind of set thatboundary, and and our target is
uh kitchens, bathrooms, andbasements.
Jason Lockhart (02:04):
Now, from all of the years you've been at this,
what have you learned that uhbecause we often we often have a
lot of younger listeners thatare just getting into the
industry, just beginning theirown company.
So, what kind of advice wouldyou hand him after all your
years of experience?
Jeff Russell (02:20):
Having an attitude where you keep learning uh is
good.
Uh, and then as quickly aspossible, understanding numbers
and pricing for profit and whatit costs.
Because uh most people in ourindustry come into owning a
(02:42):
business after working as acarpenter in the field, and and
they often don't understand thatswitch to charging a good
margin markup uh on products inorder to support the cost of
just being in business.
Um and and so kind of almostlike you know, a good financial
(03:07):
advisor tells you to have a youknow a set of save some money
for a safety fund.
I mean, as a business, pricingfor profit allows you to set
aside some money so that you canhandle those ups and downs.
Um and uh yeah, the customer'salways right is kind of true.
I mean, they may not always beright, but you got to treat them
(03:28):
like they are.
And and often it's uh thosepainful things you learn from
that uh help you figure out whatwhat to do better in the
future.
And I can't I can't tell youexactly what you'll face.
Um, and even after 36 years ofyou know, regular remodeling,
uh, we still have things.
(03:48):
We we had a flood in thekitchen last week.
You know, it's just it ithappens.
Uh but how you handle it, youknow, you gotta make sure I
think it's an opportunity toexcel when things like that
happen.
I hope at the end of this uhkitchen project that the
homeowner, you know, will giveus a good review and I can
(04:09):
interview them, ask them howcould we have handled it better?
And and they become a ravingclient because even though we
flooded their kitchenaccidentally, um, they were on
vacation, the demo personaccidentally turned on the ice
maker line that had beendisconnected and it ran
overnight.
Um, you know, that we're doingour best to clean up, to fix the
(04:33):
issue.
We're not trying to hideanything.
And those, I think those thingsare important because trust in
home remodeling of any sort isprobably the most important
thing.
Jason Lockhart (04:43):
Makes sense.
And you had touched on one ofthe three things that most new
business owners have an issuewith.
One is the pricing, yeah.
One is the operations, all thebehind-the-scenes thing, and
then the other is marketing.
So I'm I'm gonna ask you alittle bit about all, but you
actually uh said something aboutthe pricing.
So let me start there.
So with the pricing, oftentimesnew business owners, they don't
(05:06):
actually charge enough.
Correct.
And they find that out afterthe fact, after they are trying
to do all the operations, payall the overhead and do all this
stuff, and they find out thatway.
But how long did it take you toactually figure out how to
price right?
And how did you figure thatout?
Jeff Russell (05:23):
That's a good question.
Uh I might still be figuring itout sometimes.
Um probably I would sayprobably five years before we
got comfortable, and maybe evenanother five to really settle
in, you know, the first ten.
(05:43):
Um and and one of the things aswe grew that helped me, I mean,
I've done a lot of sales overthe years.
I don't do much now.
Um part of the reason I don'tis because my brain is still in
1990, and you know, I I think weshould be able to remodel a
kitchen for $15,000.
(06:03):
And sometimes we can't buycountertops for that much now.
So um and and and I would saygood training and then learning
what you're learning what you'renot good at and hiring people
that are good at that reallyhelps.
Um yeah, so I think it probablytook five to ten years.
(06:25):
Um uh there's more resourcesnow available.
Um, I mean, you can uh you canput in all your business costs
and ask chat to tell you whatyou should price, and it'll give
you a nice long list and askyou more questions.
And um, we didn't have anythinglike that.
I had to dig for resources onhow to how to price and how to
(06:47):
um, but you still I think it'simportant to learn, to
understand.
You don't have to learn allyour numbers, but I do think
it's important for a businessowner to understand the
difference between uh an incomestatement PL and a balance
sheet.
Um I it was probably three orfour years in before I took a
little course on that.
(07:08):
It was a short lemon lemonadestand accounting was the book.
It's a good book, but it wasactually a one-day course.
And it solidified accounting inmy mind really well.
Um, that a balance sheet's likea scoreboard in a business.
You know, if your balance sheetnumbers are going up, that's
like the score in a basketballgame or a football game.
(07:30):
You should understand what theymean because a lot of
businesses don't.
And if uh if you're makingmoney but your balance sheet is
is slowly going down, that's nota good thing.
Eventually it catches up withyou.
So so kind of learning that Ithink is important.
Um and then understanding, andand a good exercise is to take a
year and and write down all thethings you're gonna have
(07:52):
expenses for, uh, the vacationyou want to take, and then how
many hours do you actually haveto work and take the amount of
money you need to make and allthose expenses and divide it by
the actual hours and say, wow, Ididn't realize I'm gonna charge
that much.
And then add some more becauseyou're gonna forget something.
Jason Lockhart (08:12):
So you had talked a little bit about the
operation.
So you had led into thattalking about the PAL and
hiring.
So that's that's one of thethings also that you know a lot
of small business owners haveissues with is when to hire.
Yeah.
So when did you figure out whenwas when was a good time for
you to hire?
And when did you know, okay,now I could start to hand this
off and do more of the operationside, which a lot of the
(08:35):
business owners have to do?
Jeff Russell (08:37):
Yeah, I think so.
The first year of business, itwas two of us, and I was an
employee.
So my my business partner atthe time, uh Bill Brinkman, had
a degree in business.
He had always wanted to start abusiness, um, and he had lots
of building knowledge.
Um, and I had none of those.
And I had a lot of paintingexperience and uh and a knack
(09:00):
for building, but no training.
Um so it was just the two of uspretty much the first two
years.
We added another person um as apartner.
So, you know, you share somerisk when you're in ownership,
but you also have the challengesof um working together.
And that's that can sometimesbe a challenge.
(09:23):
Um, and then it was probablythat third year we did some
hiring, and we decided to hirebased on selling some larger
projects that were going torequire more labor than we could
provide.
Um we posted jobs, we looked atsome colleges for summer help
because most of our heavy workwas in summer.
(09:44):
Um, so we had some good placesto look, and we were fortunate,
I think, to hire some, you know,skilled but very green
employees in those years.
Um and you learn a little bitwhat you what to look for, you
get better at it.
Um, I think it's probably wisefor a lot of new people in the
(10:05):
industry, if they're hiring, toget a little bit of help from
somebody, whether it's a mentorwho could give you some advice
or um or a hiring agency of someuh sort to help you find them
that has a little higher cost toit, but sometimes if you find
someone who's good at it, itsaves you a lot of time and
effort.
Jason Lockhart (10:25):
I like that.
I like that.
And and having help and oftenreaching out to others is one of
the things most small businessowners don't like to do because
they feel like they got to do itall at sales.
So when did that when did thatrealization help uh hit you that
I need help and I need to askfor help?
Jeff Russell (10:42):
Well, I think early on we kind of decided to
have that learning mentality.
Um, and we got involved withNari and and the Builders
Association.
So I I'd go to some of theirmeetings and you talk to other
remodelers.
And so I think networking likethat helps you to really gain uh
some knowledge.
(11:03):
Um, I got involved pretty earlyon in a round table through
Nari.
And so there were some veryexperienced remodelers there
that I could listen to, and orif I had a problem, I could call
them and bounce ideas off ofthem or say, what would you do?
A couple times I actually, oneof them I called and uh rather
than hire somebody, uh, he hadcarpenters that he just invoiced
(11:26):
me for their time and he knewwhat they cost and made sure
that he covered his costs and Ididn't have to worry about
payroll.
And um, so we kind of shared anemployee for you know a small
project or two.
Um, and that kind of helped.
But I do think networking, andif you're not a if you're not an
(11:46):
outgoing people person, uh ifyou're in business with someone
else, find the one who is to dosome of that.
That helps.
Jason Lockhart (11:54):
Um I agree.
Networking is vital.
And then also, like you said,joining some of the
organizations, NARI, NARI,National Uh you know,
Association of the RemodelerIndustry, NKBA, you know, all of
those, AIA, any of those,because that actually helps you
get in tune and network withother individuals that have been
(12:14):
in business for years that cangive you that information to
help you along.
So that's great.
That's great.
Jeff Russell (12:20):
And subscribe to periodicals, you know, like
Remodeler Magazine and Journalof Light Construction and Pro
Remodeler and Kitchen and Beth,and um, those will have good
resources as well, and oftensome good seminars and things.
And um, you know, it's probably15 almost, well, I think we
(12:43):
joined SEN Design Group maybe 15years in or so.
But being a part of anassociation, I mean they're a
buying group, but being part ofthat put us in touch with you
and put us in touch with othercabinet manufacturers and gave
us some resources.
Um but it kind of takes a whileto build to that.
You kind of gotta you you gottalearn slowly because you can't
(13:05):
take it all on at once.
Um yeah.
And I I'm thankful for that.
I think I had some good peoplearound me.
Um as we added team members toour team, um, I was always
looking more for um characterand abilities uh that align with
(13:28):
our values and and the kind ofbusiness I want to run more so
than the exact skills.
Um, because you can you canteach a lot of skills, but you
know, you can't you can't teachvalues if someone is you know
doesn't have the same values.
Uh it's really difficult.
You're gonna be buttonheads allthe time.
(13:48):
So um and then I had oneemployee who had some training
with um like strengths findersand disc and things.
And so we used a few of thosethings with different employees
to kind of learn our skillsbecause we look at things so
differently.
Um, you know, some people areout there executing, they want
(14:08):
to be in the field, and otherswant to dream, and some people
just want to network and and allof those personality traits a
business needs as it grows.
Um, at first you have to dothem all, and they maybe don't
fit you.
But if you add team members andand you look at where they work
best, um, we all can improveour strengths way more than we
(14:29):
can improve on weaknesses.
So find people are strong inthe things you need, and and
when you hire well, you're like,wow, they did that so much
better than I ever could.
It's amazing.
Jason Lockhart (14:44):
I like that.
I like that.
So now let's talk about themarketing piece.
So that's yeah, something thata lot of business owners view as
a necessary evil.
Yeah.
That's something you have to doto actually stay in business.
So when did marketing becomevital for you?
And what are you doing now inyour marketing?
Jeff Russell (15:04):
Yeah.
We always did some.
When we started, we had ads innewspapers and yellow pages.
No one knows what that isanymore, but there were local
publications in neighborhoodsthat had little newspapers, and
we put an ad in there.
And um, and we kind of took anyjob that came along.
You know, you you learn to atfirst you kind of have to, and
(15:26):
then you learn to limit to whatyou're good at because doing
things you're not good at takestoo much time and energy.
Even if you think you cancharge enough, sometimes it's
not worth it because it theenergy it takes to do it is too
much.
Um, so we always did a littlebit of marketing.
Um, the networking helped withthat.
(15:47):
Uh, in our market, the BuildersAssociation has a remodeler's
showcase that's tied to theparade of homes.
So they do a weekend whereremodelers can show off a
kitchen or a bathroom.
It's expensive.
And um, it was the first timewe did it was probably about 10
years in.
And um, I don't know what itcost back then.
(16:09):
Now it's probably a $5,000investment when we do one or
more.
Um, because I've got staff topay.
It's a weekend and you have anentry fee, but they promote it
well.
Um, and you have people whocome to it, so it's like a
parade of homes, who are lookingto see what a kitchen remote
looks like.
So that was a really goodmarketing event, like
(16:31):
one-on-one, FaceTime.
Um, we didn't even have awebsite when we started because
it didn't exist.
Um we got one fairly quick whenthey started becoming, but it
was pretty clunky back in thosedays.
Um, and we've gone through afew iterations.
I've built some myself and I'mnot good at it.
That's why we hired you to helpus on our last build out.
(16:54):
Um, and now I have someone onstaff who can kind of maintain
it.
And he takes photographs of oursites and he sets up time lapse
and um posts on our Instagramand all of those things.
And so I would say um somethinglike your, you know, designer
discussions, um, kind of regularmeetings where you can learn is
(17:19):
a really good thing.
That helped us to understandthe framework within which you
have to operate now today.
Um, even if I'm not doing itpersonally, I kind of know what
to ask, or I understand a littlebit about what's going on so
that when I hire someone, I knowthey're doing what they should.
Um, but it is it's hard.
(17:40):
It often feels um marketing islike fishing, you know, you're
throwing bait and you don'talways catch something, and you
gotta switch and you gotta trysomething different and find a
new place to fish sometimes.
And and you spend money on onbait, and sometimes it doesn't
catch anything.
And um, but once you figure outwhat does work, then you gotta
(18:03):
kinda you know keep that systemgoing.
And and we're still working onthat.
I don't know that I've dialedthat in yet.
Um, but it can, I think whenyou do it well, it can be more
of a vending machine than a slotmachine.
Like you can get better atknowing where to invest and
you'll get some results ratherthan hoping and pulling that
(18:26):
slot machine and like, well,maybe I'll hit something.
Um uh and again, you know, AItools work really well to help
that.
So can I use that, Jeff?
Mirjam Lippuner (18:38):
It's more like a bit of a machine and it's not
that I actually liked it.
I like that.
I agree.
That's really good.
It's a good analogy.
Jeff Russell (18:47):
I think I heard that from um Randy Stanbury
Stanbury, who runs four level,four level consulting or
something.
He does he does work withremodelers and builders, four
level builder.
I can't remember what it is,but he has some books like 10
reasons that contractors fail.
(19:09):
Um and he has a a network thatuh helps to consult with people
and build businesses.
And I think he's the one Iheard that from.
Uh so I don't want tonecessarily steal it from it if
you said it, but I like itbecause once you kind of and we
know some of those things, butsometimes, you know, if you put
(19:29):
the money in the vending machineand nothing's coming out,
you're like, well, I gotta shakeit and figure out is there
something else?
Or maybe the price went up.
I don't, you know.
I know, you know, and and we'rejust dipping our toe into like
Google Local Services now.
Um, and they're kind of likethe vending machine.
I mean, they will give youleads.
Are they gonna be any good?
Right.
(19:49):
You know, I I don't know yet.
Well, you know, the jury's outright now.
And in my market, it's a littleexpensive.
So, you know, we'll see.
Miriam, did you have anyquestions?
Mirjam Lippuner (20:01):
I mean, I we know a lot of your story, right?
Because we've um had thepleasure of having you in our
program for a couple of years.
And I'm just happy to hear thatthat was helpful because I
think that's a big part of it isit's just uh knowing what you
know and what you don't know andwhen to use it.
(20:22):
And I just want to insert atthis point that you guys are
like one of my favorite successstories when it comes to, yes,
overall, and when it comes toPR, because um, Sharon, your
wife, um who's a part of theteam, right?
And I remember the first yearin the academy, it's like what I
(20:44):
was teaching was really justlike overwhelming and a little
intimidating.
And then you guys stuck it outfor another year and um brought
in one of your designers, andthen you started executing um
the the get quick press strategythat actually and in the first
month you got featured inForbes.
Jeff Russell (21:06):
Yeah.
Mirjam Lippuner (21:07):
Okay, that's amazing.
So um so I I think I don't knowhow we're doing right now.
Jeff Russell (21:13):
I should check with Caitlin and that's okay.
Mirjam Lippuner (21:16):
It also taught me actually that it's a good
idea to have like bursts ofactivity, maybe for two or three
months, and you focus on thatand then you scale it back
before you burn out.
Um but I what I know about youguys is and why you're
successful is because you liketo learn, but then you actually
implement what you learn.
(21:37):
And that is, I think, whatdoesn't always happen.
Jeff Russell (21:42):
Yeah, and it's challenging uh to sometimes do
that.
Um and not that I'm trying toplug Randy at four level, but
we've worked a little with them,and I think their strength is
helping clients implement umfrom a from a production side
and from a sales side, not justthe marketing piece.
Mirjam Lippuner (22:03):
Yeah.
Jeff Russell (22:04):
Um, the the actual whole business piece.
Because it's it's challenging.
There's so many hats you haveto wear as a remodel.
It's an easy business to getinto, um, but it's a hard
business to do well.
And um, I would also recommendto people, you know, do it if
you love it.
If you don't love it, it may bebetter to work for somebody
than to try to work on your own.
(22:25):
Um, just because you gotta havethere has to be kind of it's
that entrepreneurial, you know,some entrepreneurial tests you
can take.
You know, do you have thedesire?
Do you have the the drive to doit?
Because uh if you don't, it'seasier to work for somebody and
a lot less stressful, you know,because it's you can take off
(22:49):
all the time you want, and youjust can never quit working
ever.
You're always, you're alwayskind of, it's always there, it's
always in your head.
You can't believe.
Uh, but it's also wonderful.
I mean, I I love it.
Jason Lockhart (23:01):
One question you had touched on earlier is about
how you use AI.
That's something that a lot ofsmall business owners are either
hesitant with or not using atall.
So, what is your view on AI andhow much are you using it in
your business?
Jeff Russell (23:16):
That's a good question.
Probably not enough.
Um uh, you know, I startedfirst using it for a lot of just
writing tasks in terms ofcleaning up your grammar and
your speech.
And uh, you guys were good atexplaining to us how to kind of
teach it your voice.
Um uh I've used it where it'sbeen, I would say for me, been
(23:40):
really helpful.
Uh when I have a difficultclient situation um like this
flood, the homeowner was onvacation somewhere, they
couldn't get a phone call, onlyemail.
Um, how do I tell them whathappens without scaring them to
death, but without but beingrealistic.
And so look using chat to listall those things, say, can you,
(24:05):
in a professional, non-alarmingvoice, write an email that
summarizes this, and then itpumps one out really nicely, and
then I can read through it andedit it, which I did quite quite
a bit, but it but it got me tothat point of having something
on paper to work with reallyfast, where normally I I
(24:27):
probably would have agonized forfour hours over a communication
like that, you know, because Idon't want to ruin their
vacation, which I probably didanyways, but um, but my goal is
not to.
Uh so it's I've used itprobably next for that.
Uh, and then the newest way I'musing it is more with numbers.
(24:48):
Um, I have a dedicatedsalesperson and I want to switch
how we're paying compensation.
So I've gone through, I'm notdone yet, but a long uh list
with chat.
You know, here's how we'repaying, here's what I'd like to
do, here's the goals.
And it comes back with thingslike you should base it off of,
(25:10):
you know, margin and uh how andhere's the sweet spot.
And if you do it at thisamount, maybe a base plus.
And so I can look at those uhsuggestions real quickly uh and
say, no, I don't like that.
I'd rather have it this way.
And it gives me anothersuggestion.
Um it's not telling me what todo, but it's getting me to where
(25:33):
I need to go or closer to whereI want to be faster.
And I think that's one of thethings that's been really
helpful.
Um, I know there's going to beways we use it more with design
in the future.
Um, my marketing guy who's onstaff did a little quick
Instagram reel with me where isit AI or not?
(25:55):
And he got a whole bunch ofkitchen pictures and had me
guessing whether it was orwasn't.
And it was kind of a fun littledeal.
Um uh because some of them areobvious, uh, but some of them
are pretty good, and you're notquite sure.
And there are a couple I'mlike, no, that's I AI, and he's
like, Oh, that's actually real,it's really that bad.
(26:16):
So, I mean, I think I thinkit's smart to use it.
Um, you can even ask chat howto use itself, you know.
What are the best ways aremodeling business uses chat?
And it'll tell you and you canstart thinking about ways to use
(26:37):
it.
So I would say don't be afraidof it.
Just just start uh pluggingsome questions in and see what
answers it gives you.
It's kind of amazing.
Um, you gotta verify.
So, like uh code things.
I've I've typed in, you know,current Minnesota code is an air
(26:58):
gap required on a countertop orsomething, and it'll list those
details.
It's really good at lists anddetails like that.
But you should always go backand verify because it's
sometimes wrong.
You know, it's gathering fromeverywhere, and maybe it pulled
some data from somebody who, youknow, wrote 15 years ago and it
(27:19):
didn't realize that.
Jason Lockhart (27:21):
As we close out, if the younger Jeff was in your
office right now and he came atthat town with you and say,
after all your years, what wouldyou advise me beginning
remodeling today?
Jeff Russell (27:34):
Hmm.
That's a good question.
Um I think going into all yourjobs and your situations with
um, I think having a uh certainsense of humility, like I don't
know it all.
Um I think that's reallyhelpful with clients if they can
(28:00):
sense that you're there to helpthem and solve a problem, even
if you don't know the answer.
Um sometimes you feel like I'vegot to have the answer.
Uh you don't have to have theanswer, you just have to be
honest that and that you'regonna figure it out and you can.
So I think that uh as well aseverything you approach in the
(28:20):
business side, and then work tobuild habits that are
disciplined to do those things.
So, you know, having a goodroutine, you know, if that's
morning for you or evening,knowing when you do things best
to do your bookkeeping.
Don't don't let it go.
If you don't like doing it,either give it to someone else
or block your time so that youcan get it done.
(28:42):
Because uh, those are thethings that get you into
trouble.
So I like it.
Yeah, and and and network withother people who've done it so
you can learn.
Be a learner.
Served you well.
Jason Lockhart (28:54):
Yep.
So, Jeff, if any of ourlisteners on here want to reach
out to you, how do they do so?
Jeff Russell (29:00):
Oh, sure.
Uh that's fine.
Uh, Jeff, just JFF atroomremodelers.com.
So they could email me.
Simple, and um, yeah, I'd behappy to.
I I've talked to severalremodelers even the last months
who've had some issues thatthey're running into, and and I
I love being able to justencourage or give some pointers
(29:22):
when someone hits a wall onsomething.
Jason Lockhart (29:25):
Awesome.
Jeff, we appreciate your timeand we love having you here.
And for any of our listeners onhere that want to reach out to
Jeff, you know how.
And we hope to hear and seefrom you in two weeks here on
Designer Discussion.
Jeff Russell (29:36):
Great.
Jason Lockhart (29:37):
Thanks.
We hope you enjoyed thisepisode of Designer Discussions
and all of the helpfulinformation.
Subscribe to our podcast, leaveus a review, and share it with
your friends.
We look forward to having youback next week for more
information on the podcast andthe marketing studio.
Visit designer discussions.comand follow us on social media.
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