March 26, 2026 • 34 mins
If you’ve ever thought, “I can design a beautiful space, but commercial feels like a different language,” today’s guest is here to change that. Marcy Sagel is the founder of DesignerBank and principal of MSA Interiors, with 25 years in commercial and multifamily interiors. She helps interior designers build practical skills in Revit, Enscape rendering, and large-scale space planning using real project workflows. In this conversation, you’ll learn what truly separates residential from commercial, and how to level up fast without
guessing.
Commercial interior design can look mysterious from the outside, but once you understand the workflow, it becomes a realistic next step for residential designers who want bigger projects and a wider career runway. We sit down with Marcy Sagel, founder of MSA Interiors and Designer Bank, to unpack what actually changes when you move into multifamily and other large-scale commercial work, and what skills help you contribute fast without feeling overwhelmed.
We get specific about the tools and the expectations. Marcy explains why so many commercial teams rely on Revit, how interior designers use it inside an architectural model, and why firms often require Revit proficiency before they hire. We also talk about the real payoff: stronger job placement, more opportunities across architecture and design firms, and the career leverage that comes from production-ready software skills. On top of that, we explore why rendering matters so much for client buy-in, plus how learning lighting, materials, and presentation techniques can make your ideas land faster.
Then we zoom out to the business side of commercial interiors: working with big teams, staying aligned through schedules and phases, doing early space planning for amenities, and handling value engineering without sacrificing the look. Marcy also shares practical marketing and PR advice for designers who want to break into commercial work locally, often starting with the same residential clients who own businesses and need offices or facilities designed.
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Mirjam Lippuner (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Designer Discussions
with Jason and Miriam.
Today our guest is Marcy Sagel.
She is the principal andfounder of MSA Interiors and
Designer Bank, and we're here totalk about commercial interior
design.
Welcome to the DesignerDiscussions podcast with Jason,
(00:25):
Maria, and Miriam.
Tune in each week where we talkabout marketing PR and business
advice for designprofessionals.
Jason Lockhart (00:36):
Marcy, how are you doing today?
Marcy Sagel (00:38):
I'm doing well.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meon your show.
Jason Lockhart (00:42):
We wanted to have you on because we have a
lot of listeners in theresidential design space.
So we wanted to have you on totalk about that transition.
So before we get into thatconversation, if you could let
our listeners know a little bitabout who you are.
Marcy Sagel (00:56):
Sure.
So I uh am a principal andfounder of MSA Interiors.
Um we have been doingcommercial interior for over 25
years.
Um we specialize in large-scaleprojects like multifamily,
affordable housing, uh, studenthousing, senior housing,
(01:17):
hospitals, and stadiums, uh,just to say a few things, but
very large-scale projects.
Jason Lockhart (01:23):
That's it.
Marcy Sagel (01:24):
And uh I'm sorry, Jason.
Jason Lockhart (01:26):
No, no, go ahead.
Marcy Sagel (01:26):
And Designer Bank uh is uh my other company, which
is a training platform fordesigners that may want to learn
how to work in the commercialinterior design area.
Jason Lockhart (01:40):
Now, before I over talk to you, so that that's
actually interesting about thecommercial side, because like I
said, we actually have a lot ofresidential design listeners,
and I've been approached locallyabout what that transition
looks like.
From now on, whenever I havethat, I'll be able to reference
this episode.
So, you know, talk to ourlisteners about what that
(02:02):
transition looks like.
And if you actually have adegree, how do you transition
over to commercial?
Marcy Sagel (02:08):
Mm-hmm.
So when people come out ofschool and they, if they go to
an accredited school, forexample, or let's say they go to
a community college forinterior design, and they then
go to an additional four-yearprogram to get that bachelor's
degree.
Um, it's never strictly gearedtowards commercial design.
(02:29):
So it's more of an all-overpurpose of interior design.
Some schools have a commercialdesign program, but most of them
are sort of all incorporatedinto one.
So you come out of there andyou may just want to focus on
residential, which a lot ofpeople love to do, which is
pretty much how we get into uhinterior design in the first
place.
We have a love of interiors.
(02:50):
And for me, I've had it since Iwas a very young girl, um,
where my mother had an interiordesigner, and I'm the only
daughter I got to work with herand help make those decisions.
So that is where I got my loveand interest from a very early
age.
So, but it's very difficultwhen you come out of a
university and you've studieddesign and you need to make that
(03:12):
transition into commercial.
Most commercial firms, theydon't want to take a chance on
someone because there's too manythings to know and you may not
be accredited yet, but youreally need to get experience
before you can get thataccreditation.
So that transition is verydifficult.
And so, over the years, even ifsomeone had had a lot of
(03:33):
experience in commercial design,they didn't really have the
experience that we have.
So in the past, uh obviouslyeveryone used to handraft and
then it went to CAD, okay, whichand we always work in whatever
architects work in in commercialdesign.
And now in commercial design,the majority of the architecture
(03:56):
firms, and I would say verylarge majority of them,
large-scale architecture firmsthat we work with work in uh
Revit.
So that meant that we had tomake the transition into Revit.
And Revit is expensive.
By the way, you can download afree trial for 30 days.
So I recommend anybody to tryit.
Um, so we had to make thattransition, and it's a big
(04:19):
investment.
So for a firm, it's a biginvestment.
Individually, it's less of abig investment.
So not only did we have to uhget everyone to be on Revit, but
we had to teach everybodyRevit.
And Revit is one of thoseprograms that's incredibly
difficult, has so many layers toit.
It was built really forarchitects, but we use it as
(04:41):
interior designers.
And as interior designers, wework in that program differently
than architects do.
Okay.
So we're typically working inan architectural model, and that
can have a whole lot ofconversation around it.
So after a while, we got wewere hiring people online, we
(05:03):
brought people in in person, andwe just really felt that no one
really understood the way thatwe work on these large-scale
projects.
So we started training peoplein-house, okay, and that took
years.
And we also spent probably 11or 12 years building our own
(05:24):
library, which is a very bigpart of using Revit.
So we have had someone here theentire time working on building
that library.
Uh, basically, all of ourdesigners would say, I need a
light fixture that looks likethis, or I need a piece of
furniture that looks like this.
And um and our in-house personwould do what's called a
(05:47):
parametric family of items.
So this training for us tookyears to get to the level that
we're at.
And we typically only hirepeople that have Rabbit
experience now because our jobsare too large and they really
require people that have a lotof expertise.
(06:08):
But if you want to get intothat whole area of using uh or
getting into the commercialrealm, what we recommend is my
other company is, and I'm nottrying to plug it, I'm just
trying to say, we createdmodules for people to learn that
are inexpensive, that they candownload the free trial and
(06:29):
basically get educated on how touse it like an interior
designer.
Okay.
So we created Revit training,and there's like a level one, a
level two, and a level three.
And then we also do all of ourown in-house renderings.
So that has become anotherskill set that designers, I
feel, really need to learn onany level.
(06:50):
Anytime you can do a renderingof a project and make your
presentations look better andgive any of the customers or
clientele that you have a betterunderstanding of how something
looks.
Because remember, we'recreative, we're visual, they're
not.
Not everybody else can see orinterpret what we interpret.
And so when you can do arendering of something, it
(07:12):
really helps somebody understandwhat direction you're sort of
going in and how to get there.
And they can get there fasterif they can see it.
They always say things like,you know, I'm really I am having
a hard time figuring out whatthis is gonna look like.
Well, if you can show them whatit's gonna look like, it really
helps them to understand that.
And so basically, we aretraining people in Designer Bank
(07:36):
how to do what we do in mycommercial design firm.
So, and again, you don't haveto want to get into commercial
interior design to learn any ofthese programs.
Any of these programs are gonnahelp you as a residential
designer or a commercialdesigner.
So even if you just learn howto render, okay, that's gonna
(07:56):
help your presentation materialsin a very, very large way.
Any capacity, okay?
And if you can make thesepresentations look better and
more visual, you're gonna winover your client every single
time.
So that's that's how we kind ofinvented designer bank.
Jason Lockhart (08:13):
Okay.
So with designer bank, you saidyou have the different levels.
Typically, how long does ittake a designer to learn each of
these levels?
If they have a full-time job,they're doing this after hours,
how long does it take?
Marcy Sagel (08:27):
That's a great question.
So each of the like programmodules are 30 minutes apiece.
And the reason they are is it'stoo much information to take on
more than 30 minutes.
It's just there's no way you'regonna remember that.
And each one comes with aworkbook that you can go back to
and look at all of the detailsand the information and really
(08:48):
kind of grasp it.
And it also comes with the tipsand tricks because, as we all
know, every software programshould have tips and tricks
because we all know that thereare tips and tricks with
everything from Excel to Word toPowerPoint.
If we all knew all of them,we'd be like geniuses.
So it really helps to get thatsort of shortcut tips and
tricks.
So um that's what we did.
(09:11):
Um, we are talking to manyuniversities about it because it
offers a lot of things that youcan't learn until you're
actually working in the field.
And so that's really where wedifferentiate ourselves from
everyone else.
Um, but I think everything thatwe teach, and we've only
(09:31):
launched 13 modules to beginwith.
We have another 30 that we'regoing to be launching because we
just started this.
So we have uh done a lot offilming and a lot of uh writing
um to kind of really compactthese with as much information
as you can possibly compact.
And really, it's an openeducation for anyone.
And here's what I tell peoplewe deal with a lot of recruiting
(09:54):
firms.
And over the years, they'vetried to have us have people
without Revit, and that justdoesn't really work with what we
do.
So, what I tell them is go outand tell them to get Revit
training.
They have a great portfolio,but they have to learn how to
work in Revit.
If they work in Revit, I wouldconsider hiring them, you know,
but they have to get some levelof proficiency in Revit.
(10:17):
Um, and that's not the casewith all firms, by the way.
It just happens to be the casewith our firm because again, we
have to work in whatever modelthe architect's working in, and
all of our architecture firmsthat we've been working with
nationwide, they're all workingin Revit.
So that's that's why we didwhat we did.
And um, you know, I also thinkthe recruiters have said if you
(10:41):
have Revit proficiency, theyhave a better opportunity of
placing you.
There's more firms out there.
They can place you in anarchitecture firm, they can
place you in an interior designfirm, in a larger scale interior
design firm.
And the increase of salary isbetween $15,000 and $30,000 if
you learn Revit.
So that's like a really bigfactor.
(11:03):
And uh if you chat GPT that,you'll find out exactly that.
You know, you can uh put it inAI and it'll tell you if you
know this program, you have amuch better opportunity of
getting a job because it opensup so many more opportunities
for you.
So that's something also, youknow, also to consider.
And I didn't know thatactually.
The recruitment firm tells methat.
(11:24):
And then I looked it up back,you know, I went back and looked
it up, and yes, in fact, thatis the case.
Jason Lockhart (11:30):
So how many modules could you say do you
have uh the 13 now you're gonnabe adding uh over?
Marcy Sagel (11:36):
Thirty more.
Jason Lockhart (11:36):
So how many modules will they need to learn
before you can say they'reproficient?
Marcy Sagel (11:42):
So if you just do the vertical of Revit, which is
level one, which is like abeginner, and we have a level
two, which is kind of a bit of amore you know moderate, you
know, intermediate.
And then we have a little bitof what I call a pre-advanced,
okay?
Um, if you did two to three ofthe modules um in Revit, you're
(12:03):
gonna get yourself a really goodbasic and you'll be able to
learn anything that you need tolearn to work in Revit at that
point for sure.
Um, same with uh our rendering,which is in NScape.
Um, if you do multiple levelsof this, you'll learn different
techniques.
You'll learn how to light it,you'll learn how to shade it,
(12:23):
you'll learn how to add allkinds of little nuances to the
renderings, which take it from avery bland and basic to how do
you light it, how do you addfeatures to it, um, and and
going through all of thosedifferent things to make sure
that you know how to do that.
Again, both of those skill setswill help you get a job.
Even if you don't have anaccredited degree, even if you
(12:47):
don't have everything that youneed, a bachelor's, or even if
you know those two programs,you're gonna help yourself get a
job in the industry becauselots and lots of firms hire
people just to do rendering orjust to do production work in
rendering, I'm sorry, in Revit.
So if you take either one ofthose or both of those, you're
(13:08):
gonna give yourself anadditional layer of an
opportunity to get a job.
Jason Lockhart (13:13):
Okay.
Okay.
So what I'm hearing thathonestly, if you take a weekend,
maybe two or three weekends,you could really become
proficient at that.
Marcy Sagel (13:20):
It takes practice.
Um, you have to keep using itand learn all the nuances of the
program to get really good atit.
And you know, you can getsomething done.
It's just gonna at thebeginning, it always takes you
longer, and then as you use it,you move through it faster, and
then it becomes much moreproficient.
Jason Lockhart (13:37):
So now talking about the practice, we use
Ribbit in our firm, and w one ofthe issues we have is it's
always you always gotta upgradewith the newest version.
So, how do you compati that interms of the learning where you
may teach on one version, butthen a year or two later it's a
new version where they movedaround of the twos, and how do
(13:58):
you handle it?
Marcy Sagel (13:59):
So we have uh many different architectural firms
that work in different yearmodels, okay?
And when we start a project, weask them what year are you
working in?
And uh they go back from 2018to 2026.
I mean, that's the range.
So we update always, we'realways updated here at our firm
(14:20):
at MSA.
But um, what we do uh recommendis that um, regardless of what
year you learn it, you candownload a free trial at any
point, okay, of the latest andmost current version of it.
Okay.
And they do always havenuances, as we know.
It's like any software, youjust even on your phone, you
(14:41):
cringe every year that somethingnew comes out because you know
it's gonna mess up whateveryou've already learned.
So it just takes a little bitof time to get comfortable
again.
And I say, you know, those arethose are sort of the things
that happen in in the differentRevit models.
Like there's nuances to it.
Some are good, some are not sogood.
You know, they're gonna clearthose out in the next year, and
(15:03):
then they're gonna upgrade itagain.
And by the time you learn it,the next year models out.
Um and then we do uh one of ourother three verticals that
we're doing is space planning,large-scale space planning.
And I think space planning isone of those things where it's
overwhelming, like residentialor commercial.
(15:25):
The bigger it is, the harder itis.
And so you have to learn how tobreak that large-scale space
down into blocks and kind oflike block it out.
And our space planning moduleshows you how to do that.
And that's again a beginnerlevel, an intermediate level,
and an advanced level.
And uh it shows you differenttechniques to do those
(15:47):
large-scale space planning.
So, again, great thing foranyone to know between
residential or commercial.
And this is where I think whywe came out with these modules
initially, rather than someother ones, like parametric
families and those that we willbe coming out with.
We wanted to come out of thegate with the ones that I felt
(16:07):
across the board would be goodfor both residential and
commercial designers.
Jason Lockhart (16:12):
Talking about the differences working with the
commercial over residentialoutside of technology.
What are the major differences,benefits, and negatives for
working on the commercial sideversus the residential side?
Marcy Sagel (16:27):
So I love residential design.
I mean, literally love it.
Okay.
I love doing someone's home,and you get to have that
personality that belongs to thepeople that you're working for.
You really can listen to whatthe architecture is, you know,
and and really feel how theywant their home to be as a
(16:47):
residential.
In commercial, we uh work withlarge development firms in
multifamily and affordablehousing, student housing.
So very large clients, um,teams of people, okay, very
large teams of people.
So we have, we start out theproject and we have um the
(17:07):
architecture team, and they havea whole assortment of people on
their team, okay, at alldifferent levels.
And then they have what'scalled the project manager.
Uh, every architectural grouphas a project manager on every
project and uh lead architect,junior architects, whole team of
architects doing differentthings.
Then we have the engineers, andthen we have whoever the
(17:28):
engineering firm is that happensto be hired, and then we have
um, you know, all of the subs, Icall it.
Um, you know, who's the generalcontractor, who's, you know,
who's going to be representingthe client in a large team and
making decisions, who's thedecision makers, who's your
day-to-day contact person.
Very large teams of people,unlike residential.
(17:49):
And residential does haveteams, architect, sometimes, you
know, um, depending on howlarge the project is.
But the scale of the project uhstarts, and typically what we
do is we have a discussion aboutwho's responsible for what.
And so we make a list of who'sresponsible for what, um, so
(18:10):
there's no confusion and nooverlap.
Um, and we divide it up thatway, and then we set up a series
obviously of calls andcheck-ins where we start moving
and we create a schedule.
And so that schedule typicallycould be a minimum of 18 months
for the kind.
Our projects are typicallythree years, okay?
(18:32):
So I just want to say that upfront.
Could be longer, okay?
But when we do large apartmentbuildings or student housing or
military housing or whatever itis we could be working on, you
know, some of them can go fiveto seven years, okay, depending
on how many phases are involved.
So we start out with a plan, westart out with a schedule, and
(18:54):
then we work very heavily to aschedule.
Um, and then we have thesecalls, usually bi-weekly, with
everyone that's involved on theproject, and they give an agenda
so we know when it's our turnto have a conversation.
And someone on our team as aproject manager is always
listening in on the rest of thecall and uh hearing the rest of
(19:15):
all of the groups talk abouttheir different areas of
interest, uh, just in case theremight be some notes involving
us.
But um it's involved and ittakes a lot of time and process,
and that's just the designportion of it, okay?
Then we get into, you know, wedo um there's different phases
of commercial design.
So we typically have what'scalled a uh schematic at the
(19:40):
beginning and uh large-scalespace planning.
So we would, if there's a groupthat will be managing the
management or leaseup of abuilding, we get them involved
early on and we get a list ofwhat their um what their areas
uh are that they might want tohave square footage-wise.
So for instance, the fitness,they might want a very large
(20:00):
fitness area, let's say 3,000plus area or larger.
Uh how many offices for theirleaseup, how many back of house
offices, what do they need?
They need a maintenance area,they need garage areas, they
need uh places for dogs to bewashed.
We sort of figure out what theamenities might be for those
(20:21):
space planning early on, andthen we give them a lot of
different options.
So uh we we do the spaceplanning really early because we
have to, because thearchitecture is moving ahead,
and we have to figure out all ofthe engineering and columns and
um code issues early on.
(20:41):
So we move it along thatprocess with the space planning,
everybody being on board.
Then we can determine theceiling and the connection, the
heights, all of those things,stairs, elevators, all of that
based upon the location of thefront of the building where the
sun's coming in, you know, howhow's it going to be featured?
And there's so many elementsinvolved.
(21:02):
And so we're all workingtogether to create that lovely
space planning.
And at the same time, we'redoing um, you know,
inspirations.
Um, and we like to take thoseinspirations and move them into,
and it shows when we do the uhinspiration mod, you know, the
space planning module.
We like to get creative with itand come up with uh names and
(21:26):
words that kind of reflect thedirection that we're going in.
So we work with that, trying tobe really creative, color
options, um, differentdirections, and we look at it
based on who their competitorsare all around them.
So if you look at an apartmentbuilding and you have, let's
say, 10 apartment buildingsnearby within like a couple mile
(21:48):
radius, we look at theiramenity list, we look at their
colors, we look at theirdirection, we look at their
style.
You know, are they craftsmen?
Are they art deco?
Are they, you know, modern andyou know, are they sort of warm
and friendly, you know,transitional?
All of that.
And we give a whole board ofall their competitors so that we
(22:12):
can pick a direction that wefeel not only the architecture
is already going in, but wherethe inside needs to go in based
on the competitors and what theyhave, and also the level of the
price of uh the rents.
Jason Lockhart (22:25):
What are some of the negatives or working on the
commercial side versus theresidential cell?
Marcy Sagel (22:30):
Yeah.
So as I said, large-scale groupof people making decisions.
That's always not fun.
Um, and if you have reallyexperienced people from the
development side, and most ofthe time we do, we're at that
level where we work with veryexperienced people, they have a
(22:51):
really good idea of how to makedecisions.
And um, we have to remember theproject is not our own personal
money and project.
Okay.
We work for the developer, andthe goal is to get the fastest
lease up and make this buildinglook as good as we can for the
dollars.
And now, of course, everythingis value engineered because
(23:12):
everything is overpriced withconstruction.
So everybody's valueengineering every aspect of a
project.
So we still have to get it tothe finish line looking good,
but not costing a fortune.
So, you know, there's a lot ofnuances in that, and you have to
really know products in orderto value engineer and get it to
look good for less money.
So it's educating yourself onproduct and different types of
(23:36):
products and how much they cost.
So when we present products toour clients, we actually show
them.
Like if we're doing tile, wemight say this tile is $2 a
square foot, this tile is $4 asquare foot, this tile is $8 a
square foot.
And that is the cost that thecontractor would be buying it
for with some kind of level ofmarkup to the contractor because
(23:59):
they all have uh an agreementof, let's say, whatever that
person, that cost plus agreementuh in how they purchase
materials.
And that way the developerwho's making the final decision
or the owner can say, Well, Ilove the $2 tile.
Why are we gonna go with the$10 tile?
I like the $2 even better.
But they're actually making thedecision based on price right
(24:21):
up front.
So we don't have to redesignthe whole project at the end to
value engineer it.
So we do that bang for the buckright up front.
So we do wall finishes andwallpaper and all kinds of
murals and whatever we're gonnado.
Um, we can let them know howmuch those things are costing
while they're making thedecisions.
So, you know, in fact, theyalready know that that's the
(24:45):
direction they want to go in andthey know the price is gonna be
within their guideline.
Jason Lockhart (24:48):
Okay.
So now at the start, you list anumber of the project types
that you work on.
What is your favorite type ofproject to work on and why?
Marcy Sagel (24:58):
So I love many different I love many different
types of projects because I likethe variety.
Okay.
Um, I like the creativevariety.
Um, and for us, every singlejob is different from the next.
We have no portfolio that looksidentical from piece to piece,
okay?
And there's a reason for that.
(25:19):
Every architect comes up with anew solution for each new build
that we work on.
And so they all look different.
They're all in differentmarketplaces around the country.
They have a different audience.
So we are working towards aspecific market audience.
And for me, the best is howfast can we get it leased up?
The faster we lease up abuilding, the more excited I
(25:42):
get.
And for us, we are only as goodas our last job.
We have a lot of repeatclients.
And the reason we have repeatclients is because we do get a
really great lease up and westick to budget.
We never go over budget.
Very, very key.
And we also are always on timewith every project.
We we never extend out, wealways follow the schedule of
(26:06):
the architect and the generalcontractor.
And it's very important to dothat because every minute that
you're late with delivering aproject means the whole ex the
whole building can push out forthat.
And so we don't certainly wantto be the cause for that.
I don't think we'd ever behired again if we did that.
So um I just love pretty muchevery project we work on um
(26:28):
creatively.
So they're all very creative.
They have a lot of reallyunique indoor and outdoor
spaces, and that makes eachproject exciting for me.
Mirjam Lippuner (26:36):
Yeah, no, I think this is all so interesting
because we normally deal withso many um firms in the
residential space, and it'sdefinitely very different.
And I just want to kind ofbring it back to um what we
normally talk about, which ismarketing and PR.
And for me, on the PR side, Iknow obviously there's a quite
(26:58):
different set of media that umdeals with commercial design
projects compared to umresidential design products.
It's all trade press for themost part, right?
Unless for some super fancymaybe um restaurant hotel type
properties.
But I just wonder um if youhave any insights on if somebody
(27:22):
is interested in transitioningor like bringing in some
commercial projects, like howwhat would be the best way to go
about that if on the marketingside?
And I know you're already soestablished, you know, you
probably don't have to do that.
But if you had to give adviceto somebody who's starting out
in commercial, what would yousay?
Marcy Sagel (27:45):
If someone was starting out, or let's say
they're in uh residential andwant to start taking on some
commercial jobs, which is verylikely, by the way, because when
you're good at doingresidential interior design,
that same client that may own acompany that you've just done
their home for wants to workwith you.
Okay.
(28:05):
They think you're creative,they love your style, they want
to see their commercial projectbe just as good as their
residential project.
And by the way, I was doingresidential and transition to
commercial.
And I had a mentor, and Ihighly recommend that for
anybody.
Um, if they're transitioningand want to add some commercial
(28:26):
projects.
But if you're talking about themarketing portion of it, I
think with social media andmarketing now and all that we
have that's out there, you'vegot to get out there and talk
about what you're good at.
Even though if it might feeldifficult, I'm not comfortable
doing that, to be honest.
I know this profession and Ifeel really good about it, but
(28:47):
it's not easy for me to talkabout, oh, we're really good at
this or we're really good atthat.
But you have to start doingthat from a marketing standpoint
and a PR standpoint.
And if it if you want to startsmall, start doing some local
radio, start doing some localpodcast, get your name out there
and really start gettinginvolved with some marketing
(29:09):
that's more regional and localto where your area is, and get a
name for yourself.
Start building that up foryourself and remember that every
single client, whether they'reeasy or difficult, is a
possibility of you gettingadditional clients from that
client.
And you have to remember that'syour best marketing up front is
(29:31):
every client you work with, andgo on from there.
So, you know, really try towrap up a project, even if it's
the most difficult project, wrapit up as best as you can and um
realize that you learnsomething from it and market it.
Use it for your marketingmaterials, use it for your
(29:52):
portfolio to get other jobs, andand really just start to put
some, you know, websitestogether that really showcase
your portfolio and lettingpeople understand who you are.
You know, get some searchengine optimization, get
somebody out there to do all ofyour marketing and really push
out there what you do.
(30:12):
Because as I always said, mymom used to say this actually no
one's just gonna come and knockon your door and say, Oh, can I
hire you?
Okay.
No, you have to actually go outthere and ask for work.
And the way you do that is bymarketing yourself.
So that's my bestrecommendation with marketing.
Mirjam Lippuner (30:33):
Very true.
I love that.
And the local regional angle issomething that we always preach
um to all of the students andthe clients that we work with.
So yeah, yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
It's all so interesting.
I really hope that some of ourlisteners are gonna um take um
some of the advice that thatyou're giving them and and start
(30:57):
um expanding.
Marcy Sagel (30:58):
I hope so because there's so many creative
designers that are in theresidential field and they, you
know, sometimes feel stuck.
That's what I hear.
They're stuck in theresidential arena.
But some of the best designersI know started out in
residential and they're doingmonster hotels and major
restaurants and major largecommercial projects because
(31:21):
nobody just comes out of schoolunless you get your
accreditation right away andgets like the best job out
there.
It takes time.
So if you're gonna expand yourportfolio, it's not hard to do
with a lot of the people thatyou already have as clients for
residential clients.
You can really expand on thatand start doing some of their
commercial spaces.
(31:42):
You know, you might have adoctor that you did their home
and they may want you to work ontheir, you know, doctor's
practice, you know, or help themfix up their office.
All of these things help buildyour commercial portfolio.
Jason Lockhart (31:54):
Awesome.
So, one question I like to askall designers that we have on
here, uh, and you've answeredaspects of this, you know,
throughout, but the youngerMarcy, if you were talking to
her right now and she was inresidential, what advice would
you hand her?
Marcy Sagel (32:12):
So I was always afraid to take that leap into
commercial.
I felt like I was never gonnaknow enough to go into that
commercial realm.
And I had a client that hiredus to do all of the red lines
for all of his multifamilybuildings uh for the units uh
(32:33):
because of cabinetry, okay, forthe kitchens and bathrooms.
And um, he was an architect, hewas a big public company, and
he guided me through everythingI needed to learn to work on my
first multifamily job, and itwas a lot.
And I told him right up front,this is not something I know how
to do.
(32:53):
And he said, I love yourcreativity.
I want to work with you andshow you how to do this.
That's all it takes.
And anybody is out there, youknow, in the industry, there's
plenty of people that will helpguide you.
Don't be afraid to ask someonethat's in commercial or or
working for a firm to help guideyou if you get a job in a
(33:14):
commercial uh directive or orwant to learn more about it.
There's lots of people willingto give advice architects,
interior designers that are inthe commercial area.
So that's what I suggest.
Jason Lockhart (33:25):
I love that.
I love that.
So if any of our listeners wantto reach out to you, how do
they do so?
Marcy Sagel (33:31):
Um, I could always be reached through uh either of
my websites.
Um, I have my email on both.
Feel free on Marcy atMsainteriors.com or Marcy and
it's M A R C Y atdesignerbank.com.
So happy to answer anyquestions anyone has.
Jason Lockhart (33:49):
Thanks again, Marcy.
And for all of our listeners,if you want to reach out to her,
please do so.
So uh we hope to hear and seeyou all in two weeks here on
Designer Discussions.
Marcy Sagel (33:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jason Lockhart (34:00):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Designer
Discussions and all of thehelpful information.
Subscribe to our podcast, leaveus a review, and share it with
your friends.
We look forward to having youback next week for more
information on the podcast andthe marketing studio.
Visit designer discussions.comand follow us on social media.
Hello and welcome to Designer Discussions
with Jason and Miriam.
Today our guest is Marcy Sagel.
She is the principal andfounder of MSA Interiors and
Designer Bank, and we're here totalk about commercial interior
design.
Welcome to the DesignerDiscussions podcast with Jason,
(00:25):
Maria, and Miriam.
Tune in each week where we talkabout marketing PR and business
advice for designprofessionals.
Jason Lockhart (00:36):
Marcy, how are you doing today?
Marcy Sagel (00:38):
I'm doing well.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meon your show.
Jason Lockhart (00:42):
We wanted to have you on because we have a
lot of listeners in theresidential design space.
So we wanted to have you on totalk about that transition.
So before we get into thatconversation, if you could let
our listeners know a little bitabout who you are.
Marcy Sagel (00:56):
Sure.
So I uh am a principal andfounder of MSA Interiors.
Um we have been doingcommercial interior for over 25
years.
Um we specialize in large-scaleprojects like multifamily,
affordable housing, uh, studenthousing, senior housing,
(01:17):
hospitals, and stadiums, uh,just to say a few things, but
very large-scale projects.
Jason Lockhart (01:23):
That's it.
Marcy Sagel (01:24):
And uh I'm sorry, Jason.
Jason Lockhart (01:26):
No, no, go ahead.
Marcy Sagel (01:26):
And Designer Bank uh is uh my other company, which
is a training platform fordesigners that may want to learn
how to work in the commercialinterior design area.
Jason Lockhart (01:40):
Now, before I over talk to you, so that that's
actually interesting about thecommercial side, because like I
said, we actually have a lot ofresidential design listeners,
and I've been approached locallyabout what that transition
looks like.
From now on, whenever I havethat, I'll be able to reference
this episode.
So, you know, talk to ourlisteners about what that
(02:02):
transition looks like.
And if you actually have adegree, how do you transition
over to commercial?
Marcy Sagel (02:08):
Mm-hmm.
So when people come out ofschool and they, if they go to
an accredited school, forexample, or let's say they go to
a community college forinterior design, and they then
go to an additional four-yearprogram to get that bachelor's
degree.
Um, it's never strictly gearedtowards commercial design.
(02:29):
So it's more of an all-overpurpose of interior design.
Some schools have a commercialdesign program, but most of them
are sort of all incorporatedinto one.
So you come out of there andyou may just want to focus on
residential, which a lot ofpeople love to do, which is
pretty much how we get into uhinterior design in the first
place.
We have a love of interiors.
(02:50):
And for me, I've had it since Iwas a very young girl, um,
where my mother had an interiordesigner, and I'm the only
daughter I got to work with herand help make those decisions.
So that is where I got my loveand interest from a very early
age.
So, but it's very difficultwhen you come out of a
university and you've studieddesign and you need to make that
(03:12):
transition into commercial.
Most commercial firms, theydon't want to take a chance on
someone because there's too manythings to know and you may not
be accredited yet, but youreally need to get experience
before you can get thataccreditation.
So that transition is verydifficult.
And so, over the years, even ifsomeone had had a lot of
(03:33):
experience in commercial design,they didn't really have the
experience that we have.
So in the past, uh obviouslyeveryone used to handraft and
then it went to CAD, okay, whichand we always work in whatever
architects work in in commercialdesign.
And now in commercial design,the majority of the architecture
(03:56):
firms, and I would say verylarge majority of them,
large-scale architecture firmsthat we work with work in uh
Revit.
So that meant that we had tomake the transition into Revit.
And Revit is expensive.
By the way, you can download afree trial for 30 days.
So I recommend anybody to tryit.
Um, so we had to make thattransition, and it's a big
(04:19):
investment.
So for a firm, it's a biginvestment.
Individually, it's less of abig investment.
So not only did we have to uhget everyone to be on Revit, but
we had to teach everybodyRevit.
And Revit is one of thoseprograms that's incredibly
difficult, has so many layers toit.
It was built really forarchitects, but we use it as
(04:41):
interior designers.
And as interior designers, wework in that program differently
than architects do.
Okay.
So we're typically working inan architectural model, and that
can have a whole lot ofconversation around it.
So after a while, we got wewere hiring people online, we
(05:03):
brought people in in person, andwe just really felt that no one
really understood the way thatwe work on these large-scale
projects.
So we started training peoplein-house, okay, and that took
years.
And we also spent probably 11or 12 years building our own
(05:24):
library, which is a very bigpart of using Revit.
So we have had someone here theentire time working on building
that library.
Uh, basically, all of ourdesigners would say, I need a
light fixture that looks likethis, or I need a piece of
furniture that looks like this.
And um and our in-house personwould do what's called a
(05:47):
parametric family of items.
So this training for us tookyears to get to the level that
we're at.
And we typically only hirepeople that have Rabbit
experience now because our jobsare too large and they really
require people that have a lotof expertise.
(06:08):
But if you want to get intothat whole area of using uh or
getting into the commercialrealm, what we recommend is my
other company is, and I'm nottrying to plug it, I'm just
trying to say, we createdmodules for people to learn that
are inexpensive, that they candownload the free trial and
(06:29):
basically get educated on how touse it like an interior
designer.
Okay.
So we created Revit training,and there's like a level one, a
level two, and a level three.
And then we also do all of ourown in-house renderings.
So that has become anotherskill set that designers, I
feel, really need to learn onany level.
(06:50):
Anytime you can do a renderingof a project and make your
presentations look better andgive any of the customers or
clientele that you have a betterunderstanding of how something
looks.
Because remember, we'recreative, we're visual, they're
not.
Not everybody else can see orinterpret what we interpret.
And so when you can do arendering of something, it
(07:12):
really helps somebody understandwhat direction you're sort of
going in and how to get there.
And they can get there fasterif they can see it.
They always say things like,you know, I'm really I am having
a hard time figuring out whatthis is gonna look like.
Well, if you can show them whatit's gonna look like, it really
helps them to understand that.
And so basically, we aretraining people in Designer Bank
(07:36):
how to do what we do in mycommercial design firm.
So, and again, you don't haveto want to get into commercial
interior design to learn any ofthese programs.
Any of these programs are gonnahelp you as a residential
designer or a commercialdesigner.
So even if you just learn howto render, okay, that's gonna
(07:56):
help your presentation materialsin a very, very large way.
Any capacity, okay?
And if you can make thesepresentations look better and
more visual, you're gonna winover your client every single
time.
So that's that's how we kind ofinvented designer bank.
Jason Lockhart (08:13):
Okay.
So with designer bank, you saidyou have the different levels.
Typically, how long does ittake a designer to learn each of
these levels?
If they have a full-time job,they're doing this after hours,
how long does it take?
Marcy Sagel (08:27):
That's a great question.
So each of the like programmodules are 30 minutes apiece.
And the reason they are is it'stoo much information to take on
more than 30 minutes.
It's just there's no way you'regonna remember that.
And each one comes with aworkbook that you can go back to
and look at all of the detailsand the information and really
(08:48):
kind of grasp it.
And it also comes with the tipsand tricks because, as we all
know, every software programshould have tips and tricks
because we all know that thereare tips and tricks with
everything from Excel to Word toPowerPoint.
If we all knew all of them,we'd be like geniuses.
So it really helps to get thatsort of shortcut tips and
tricks.
So um that's what we did.
(09:11):
Um, we are talking to manyuniversities about it because it
offers a lot of things that youcan't learn until you're
actually working in the field.
And so that's really where wedifferentiate ourselves from
everyone else.
Um, but I think everything thatwe teach, and we've only
(09:31):
launched 13 modules to beginwith.
We have another 30 that we'regoing to be launching because we
just started this.
So we have uh done a lot offilming and a lot of uh writing
um to kind of really compactthese with as much information
as you can possibly compact.
And really, it's an openeducation for anyone.
And here's what I tell peoplewe deal with a lot of recruiting
(09:54):
firms.
And over the years, they'vetried to have us have people
without Revit, and that justdoesn't really work with what we
do.
So, what I tell them is go outand tell them to get Revit
training.
They have a great portfolio,but they have to learn how to
work in Revit.
If they work in Revit, I wouldconsider hiring them, you know,
but they have to get some levelof proficiency in Revit.
(10:17):
Um, and that's not the casewith all firms, by the way.
It just happens to be the casewith our firm because again, we
have to work in whatever modelthe architect's working in, and
all of our architecture firmsthat we've been working with
nationwide, they're all workingin Revit.
So that's that's why we didwhat we did.
And um, you know, I also thinkthe recruiters have said if you
(10:41):
have Revit proficiency, theyhave a better opportunity of
placing you.
There's more firms out there.
They can place you in anarchitecture firm, they can
place you in an interior designfirm, in a larger scale interior
design firm.
And the increase of salary isbetween $15,000 and $30,000 if
you learn Revit.
So that's like a really bigfactor.
(11:03):
And uh if you chat GPT that,you'll find out exactly that.
You know, you can uh put it inAI and it'll tell you if you
know this program, you have amuch better opportunity of
getting a job because it opensup so many more opportunities
for you.
So that's something also, youknow, also to consider.
And I didn't know thatactually.
The recruitment firm tells methat.
(11:24):
And then I looked it up back,you know, I went back and looked
it up, and yes, in fact, thatis the case.
Jason Lockhart (11:30):
So how many modules could you say do you
have uh the 13 now you're gonnabe adding uh over?
Marcy Sagel (11:36):
Thirty more.
Jason Lockhart (11:36):
So how many modules will they need to learn
before you can say they'reproficient?
Marcy Sagel (11:42):
So if you just do the vertical of Revit, which is
level one, which is like abeginner, and we have a level
two, which is kind of a bit of amore you know moderate, you
know, intermediate.
And then we have a little bitof what I call a pre-advanced,
okay?
Um, if you did two to three ofthe modules um in Revit, you're
(12:03):
gonna get yourself a really goodbasic and you'll be able to
learn anything that you need tolearn to work in Revit at that
point for sure.
Um, same with uh our rendering,which is in NScape.
Um, if you do multiple levelsof this, you'll learn different
techniques.
You'll learn how to light it,you'll learn how to shade it,
(12:23):
you'll learn how to add allkinds of little nuances to the
renderings, which take it from avery bland and basic to how do
you light it, how do you addfeatures to it, um, and and
going through all of thosedifferent things to make sure
that you know how to do that.
Again, both of those skill setswill help you get a job.
Even if you don't have anaccredited degree, even if you
(12:47):
don't have everything that youneed, a bachelor's, or even if
you know those two programs,you're gonna help yourself get a
job in the industry becauselots and lots of firms hire
people just to do rendering orjust to do production work in
rendering, I'm sorry, in Revit.
So if you take either one ofthose or both of those, you're
(13:08):
gonna give yourself anadditional layer of an
opportunity to get a job.
Jason Lockhart (13:13):
Okay.
Okay.
So what I'm hearing thathonestly, if you take a weekend,
maybe two or three weekends,you could really become
proficient at that.
Marcy Sagel (13:20):
It takes practice.
Um, you have to keep using itand learn all the nuances of the
program to get really good atit.
And you know, you can getsomething done.
It's just gonna at thebeginning, it always takes you
longer, and then as you use it,you move through it faster, and
then it becomes much moreproficient.
Jason Lockhart (13:37):
So now talking about the practice, we use
Ribbit in our firm, and w one ofthe issues we have is it's
always you always gotta upgradewith the newest version.
So, how do you compati that interms of the learning where you
may teach on one version, butthen a year or two later it's a
new version where they movedaround of the twos, and how do
(13:58):
you handle it?
Marcy Sagel (13:59):
So we have uh many different architectural firms
that work in different yearmodels, okay?
And when we start a project, weask them what year are you
working in?
And uh they go back from 2018to 2026.
I mean, that's the range.
So we update always, we'realways updated here at our firm
(14:20):
at MSA.
But um, what we do uh recommendis that um, regardless of what
year you learn it, you candownload a free trial at any
point, okay, of the latest andmost current version of it.
Okay.
And they do always havenuances, as we know.
It's like any software, youjust even on your phone, you
(14:41):
cringe every year that somethingnew comes out because you know
it's gonna mess up whateveryou've already learned.
So it just takes a little bitof time to get comfortable
again.
And I say, you know, those arethose are sort of the things
that happen in in the differentRevit models.
Like there's nuances to it.
Some are good, some are not sogood.
You know, they're gonna clearthose out in the next year, and
(15:03):
then they're gonna upgrade itagain.
And by the time you learn it,the next year models out.
Um and then we do uh one of ourother three verticals that
we're doing is space planning,large-scale space planning.
And I think space planning isone of those things where it's
overwhelming, like residentialor commercial.
(15:25):
The bigger it is, the harder itis.
And so you have to learn how tobreak that large-scale space
down into blocks and kind oflike block it out.
And our space planning moduleshows you how to do that.
And that's again a beginnerlevel, an intermediate level,
and an advanced level.
And uh it shows you differenttechniques to do those
(15:47):
large-scale space planning.
So, again, great thing foranyone to know between
residential or commercial.
And this is where I think whywe came out with these modules
initially, rather than someother ones, like parametric
families and those that we willbe coming out with.
We wanted to come out of thegate with the ones that I felt
(16:07):
across the board would be goodfor both residential and
commercial designers.
Jason Lockhart (16:12):
Talking about the differences working with the
commercial over residentialoutside of technology.
What are the major differences,benefits, and negatives for
working on the commercial sideversus the residential side?
Marcy Sagel (16:27):
So I love residential design.
I mean, literally love it.
Okay.
I love doing someone's home,and you get to have that
personality that belongs to thepeople that you're working for.
You really can listen to whatthe architecture is, you know,
and and really feel how theywant their home to be as a
(16:47):
residential.
In commercial, we uh work withlarge development firms in
multifamily and affordablehousing, student housing.
So very large clients, um,teams of people, okay, very
large teams of people.
So we have, we start out theproject and we have um the
(17:07):
architecture team, and they havea whole assortment of people on
their team, okay, at alldifferent levels.
And then they have what'scalled the project manager.
Uh, every architectural grouphas a project manager on every
project and uh lead architect,junior architects, whole team of
architects doing differentthings.
Then we have the engineers, andthen we have whoever the
(17:28):
engineering firm is that happensto be hired, and then we have
um, you know, all of the subs, Icall it.
Um, you know, who's the generalcontractor, who's, you know,
who's going to be representingthe client in a large team and
making decisions, who's thedecision makers, who's your
day-to-day contact person.
Very large teams of people,unlike residential.
(17:49):
And residential does haveteams, architect, sometimes, you
know, um, depending on howlarge the project is.
But the scale of the project uhstarts, and typically what we
do is we have a discussion aboutwho's responsible for what.
And so we make a list of who'sresponsible for what, um, so
(18:10):
there's no confusion and nooverlap.
Um, and we divide it up thatway, and then we set up a series
obviously of calls andcheck-ins where we start moving
and we create a schedule.
And so that schedule typicallycould be a minimum of 18 months
for the kind.
Our projects are typicallythree years, okay?
(18:32):
So I just want to say that upfront.
Could be longer, okay?
But when we do large apartmentbuildings or student housing or
military housing or whatever itis we could be working on, you
know, some of them can go fiveto seven years, okay, depending
on how many phases are involved.
So we start out with a plan, westart out with a schedule, and
(18:54):
then we work very heavily to aschedule.
Um, and then we have thesecalls, usually bi-weekly, with
everyone that's involved on theproject, and they give an agenda
so we know when it's our turnto have a conversation.
And someone on our team as aproject manager is always
listening in on the rest of thecall and uh hearing the rest of
(19:15):
all of the groups talk abouttheir different areas of
interest, uh, just in case theremight be some notes involving
us.
But um it's involved and ittakes a lot of time and process,
and that's just the designportion of it, okay?
Then we get into, you know, wedo um there's different phases
of commercial design.
So we typically have what'scalled a uh schematic at the
(19:40):
beginning and uh large-scalespace planning.
So we would, if there's a groupthat will be managing the
management or leaseup of abuilding, we get them involved
early on and we get a list ofwhat their um what their areas
uh are that they might want tohave square footage-wise.
So for instance, the fitness,they might want a very large
(20:00):
fitness area, let's say 3,000plus area or larger.
Uh how many offices for theirleaseup, how many back of house
offices, what do they need?
They need a maintenance area,they need garage areas, they
need uh places for dogs to bewashed.
We sort of figure out what theamenities might be for those
(20:21):
space planning early on, andthen we give them a lot of
different options.
So uh we we do the spaceplanning really early because we
have to, because thearchitecture is moving ahead,
and we have to figure out all ofthe engineering and columns and
um code issues early on.
(20:41):
So we move it along thatprocess with the space planning,
everybody being on board.
Then we can determine theceiling and the connection, the
heights, all of those things,stairs, elevators, all of that
based upon the location of thefront of the building where the
sun's coming in, you know, howhow's it going to be featured?
And there's so many elementsinvolved.
(21:02):
And so we're all workingtogether to create that lovely
space planning.
And at the same time, we'redoing um, you know,
inspirations.
Um, and we like to take thoseinspirations and move them into,
and it shows when we do the uhinspiration mod, you know, the
space planning module.
We like to get creative with itand come up with uh names and
(21:26):
words that kind of reflect thedirection that we're going in.
So we work with that, trying tobe really creative, color
options, um, differentdirections, and we look at it
based on who their competitorsare all around them.
So if you look at an apartmentbuilding and you have, let's
say, 10 apartment buildingsnearby within like a couple mile
(21:48):
radius, we look at theiramenity list, we look at their
colors, we look at theirdirection, we look at their
style.
You know, are they craftsmen?
Are they art deco?
Are they, you know, modern andyou know, are they sort of warm
and friendly, you know,transitional?
All of that.
And we give a whole board ofall their competitors so that we
(22:12):
can pick a direction that wefeel not only the architecture
is already going in, but wherethe inside needs to go in based
on the competitors and what theyhave, and also the level of the
price of uh the rents.
Jason Lockhart (22:25):
What are some of the negatives or working on the
commercial side versus theresidential cell?
Marcy Sagel (22:30):
Yeah.
So as I said, large-scale groupof people making decisions.
That's always not fun.
Um, and if you have reallyexperienced people from the
development side, and most ofthe time we do, we're at that
level where we work with veryexperienced people, they have a
(22:51):
really good idea of how to makedecisions.
And um, we have to remember theproject is not our own personal
money and project.
Okay.
We work for the developer, andthe goal is to get the fastest
lease up and make this buildinglook as good as we can for the
dollars.
And now, of course, everythingis value engineered because
(23:12):
everything is overpriced withconstruction.
So everybody's valueengineering every aspect of a
project.
So we still have to get it tothe finish line looking good,
but not costing a fortune.
So, you know, there's a lot ofnuances in that, and you have to
really know products in orderto value engineer and get it to
look good for less money.
So it's educating yourself onproduct and different types of
(23:36):
products and how much they cost.
So when we present products toour clients, we actually show
them.
Like if we're doing tile, wemight say this tile is $2 a
square foot, this tile is $4 asquare foot, this tile is $8 a
square foot.
And that is the cost that thecontractor would be buying it
for with some kind of level ofmarkup to the contractor because
(23:59):
they all have uh an agreementof, let's say, whatever that
person, that cost plus agreementuh in how they purchase
materials.
And that way the developerwho's making the final decision
or the owner can say, Well, Ilove the $2 tile.
Why are we gonna go with the$10 tile?
I like the $2 even better.
But they're actually making thedecision based on price right
(24:21):
up front.
So we don't have to redesignthe whole project at the end to
value engineer it.
So we do that bang for the buckright up front.
So we do wall finishes andwallpaper and all kinds of
murals and whatever we're gonnado.
Um, we can let them know howmuch those things are costing
while they're making thedecisions.
So, you know, in fact, theyalready know that that's the
(24:45):
direction they want to go in andthey know the price is gonna be
within their guideline.
Jason Lockhart (24:48):
Okay.
So now at the start, you list anumber of the project types
that you work on.
What is your favorite type ofproject to work on and why?
Marcy Sagel (24:58):
So I love many different I love many different
types of projects because I likethe variety.
Okay.
Um, I like the creativevariety.
Um, and for us, every singlejob is different from the next.
We have no portfolio that looksidentical from piece to piece,
okay?
And there's a reason for that.
(25:19):
Every architect comes up with anew solution for each new build
that we work on.
And so they all look different.
They're all in differentmarketplaces around the country.
They have a different audience.
So we are working towards aspecific market audience.
And for me, the best is howfast can we get it leased up?
The faster we lease up abuilding, the more excited I
(25:42):
get.
And for us, we are only as goodas our last job.
We have a lot of repeatclients.
And the reason we have repeatclients is because we do get a
really great lease up and westick to budget.
We never go over budget.
Very, very key.
And we also are always on timewith every project.
We we never extend out, wealways follow the schedule of
(26:06):
the architect and the generalcontractor.
And it's very important to dothat because every minute that
you're late with delivering aproject means the whole ex the
whole building can push out forthat.
And so we don't certainly wantto be the cause for that.
I don't think we'd ever behired again if we did that.
So um I just love pretty muchevery project we work on um
(26:28):
creatively.
So they're all very creative.
They have a lot of reallyunique indoor and outdoor
spaces, and that makes eachproject exciting for me.
Mirjam Lippuner (26:36):
Yeah, no, I think this is all so interesting
because we normally deal withso many um firms in the
residential space, and it'sdefinitely very different.
And I just want to kind ofbring it back to um what we
normally talk about, which ismarketing and PR.
And for me, on the PR side, Iknow obviously there's a quite
(26:58):
different set of media that umdeals with commercial design
projects compared to umresidential design products.
It's all trade press for themost part, right?
Unless for some super fancymaybe um restaurant hotel type
properties.
But I just wonder um if youhave any insights on if somebody
(27:22):
is interested in transitioningor like bringing in some
commercial projects, like howwhat would be the best way to go
about that if on the marketingside?
And I know you're already soestablished, you know, you
probably don't have to do that.
But if you had to give adviceto somebody who's starting out
in commercial, what would yousay?
Marcy Sagel (27:45):
If someone was starting out, or let's say
they're in uh residential andwant to start taking on some
commercial jobs, which is verylikely, by the way, because when
you're good at doingresidential interior design,
that same client that may own acompany that you've just done
their home for wants to workwith you.
Okay.
(28:05):
They think you're creative,they love your style, they want
to see their commercial projectbe just as good as their
residential project.
And by the way, I was doingresidential and transition to
commercial.
And I had a mentor, and Ihighly recommend that for
anybody.
Um, if they're transitioningand want to add some commercial
(28:26):
projects.
But if you're talking about themarketing portion of it, I
think with social media andmarketing now and all that we
have that's out there, you'vegot to get out there and talk
about what you're good at.
Even though if it might feeldifficult, I'm not comfortable
doing that, to be honest.
I know this profession and Ifeel really good about it, but
(28:47):
it's not easy for me to talkabout, oh, we're really good at
this or we're really good atthat.
But you have to start doingthat from a marketing standpoint
and a PR standpoint.
And if it if you want to startsmall, start doing some local
radio, start doing some localpodcast, get your name out there
and really start gettinginvolved with some marketing
(29:09):
that's more regional and localto where your area is, and get a
name for yourself.
Start building that up foryourself and remember that every
single client, whether they'reeasy or difficult, is a
possibility of you gettingadditional clients from that
client.
And you have to remember that'syour best marketing up front is
(29:31):
every client you work with, andgo on from there.
So, you know, really try towrap up a project, even if it's
the most difficult project, wrapit up as best as you can and um
realize that you learnsomething from it and market it.
Use it for your marketingmaterials, use it for your
(29:52):
portfolio to get other jobs, andand really just start to put
some, you know, websitestogether that really showcase
your portfolio and lettingpeople understand who you are.
You know, get some searchengine optimization, get
somebody out there to do all ofyour marketing and really push
out there what you do.
(30:12):
Because as I always said, mymom used to say this actually no
one's just gonna come and knockon your door and say, Oh, can I
hire you?
Okay.
No, you have to actually go outthere and ask for work.
And the way you do that is bymarketing yourself.
So that's my bestrecommendation with marketing.
Mirjam Lippuner (30:33):
Very true.
I love that.
And the local regional angle issomething that we always preach
um to all of the students andthe clients that we work with.
So yeah, yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
It's all so interesting.
I really hope that some of ourlisteners are gonna um take um
some of the advice that thatyou're giving them and and start
(30:57):
um expanding.
Marcy Sagel (30:58):
I hope so because there's so many creative
designers that are in theresidential field and they, you
know, sometimes feel stuck.
That's what I hear.
They're stuck in theresidential arena.
But some of the best designersI know started out in
residential and they're doingmonster hotels and major
restaurants and major largecommercial projects because
(31:21):
nobody just comes out of schoolunless you get your
accreditation right away andgets like the best job out
there.
It takes time.
So if you're gonna expand yourportfolio, it's not hard to do
with a lot of the people thatyou already have as clients for
residential clients.
You can really expand on thatand start doing some of their
commercial spaces.
(31:42):
You know, you might have adoctor that you did their home
and they may want you to work ontheir, you know, doctor's
practice, you know, or help themfix up their office.
All of these things help buildyour commercial portfolio.
Jason Lockhart (31:54):
Awesome.
So, one question I like to askall designers that we have on
here, uh, and you've answeredaspects of this, you know,
throughout, but the youngerMarcy, if you were talking to
her right now and she was inresidential, what advice would
you hand her?
Marcy Sagel (32:12):
So I was always afraid to take that leap into
commercial.
I felt like I was never gonnaknow enough to go into that
commercial realm.
And I had a client that hiredus to do all of the red lines
for all of his multifamilybuildings uh for the units uh
(32:33):
because of cabinetry, okay, forthe kitchens and bathrooms.
And um, he was an architect, hewas a big public company, and
he guided me through everythingI needed to learn to work on my
first multifamily job, and itwas a lot.
And I told him right up front,this is not something I know how
to do.
(32:53):
And he said, I love yourcreativity.
I want to work with you andshow you how to do this.
That's all it takes.
And anybody is out there, youknow, in the industry, there's
plenty of people that will helpguide you.
Don't be afraid to ask someonethat's in commercial or or
working for a firm to help guideyou if you get a job in a
(33:14):
commercial uh directive or orwant to learn more about it.
There's lots of people willingto give advice architects,
interior designers that are inthe commercial area.
So that's what I suggest.
Jason Lockhart (33:25):
I love that.
I love that.
So if any of our listeners wantto reach out to you, how do
they do so?
Marcy Sagel (33:31):
Um, I could always be reached through uh either of
my websites.
Um, I have my email on both.
Feel free on Marcy atMsainteriors.com or Marcy and
it's M A R C Y atdesignerbank.com.
So happy to answer anyquestions anyone has.
Jason Lockhart (33:49):
Thanks again, Marcy.
And for all of our listeners,if you want to reach out to her,
please do so.
So uh we hope to hear and seeyou all in two weeks here on
Designer Discussions.
Marcy Sagel (33:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
Jason Lockhart (34:00):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Designer
Discussions and all of thehelpful information.
Subscribe to our podcast, leaveus a review, and share it with
your friends.
We look forward to having youback next week for more
information on the podcast andthe marketing studio.
Visit designer discussions.comand follow us on social media.
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