April 16, 2026 • 43 mins
Meet my friend Lisa Kneller! She is a midlife marriage coach this conversation gets really honest about what actually keeps love alive over decades.
Lisa's work is all about doing the inner work to build a strong, lasting marriage. Get ready to be inspired by the way she talks of her own marriage and the role identity, purpose, and direction play in building a lasting relationship.
Be on the lookout for the powerful writing practice she shares to create your own marriage declaration - a practical way to your relationship feeling safe and life-giving again.
Lisa shares her book, The Inner Work of Love: 10 Understandings for Lasting Relationships.
If you are seeking a healthier marriage, a stronger friendship, and ideas you can put into practice today, you will love this conversation.
Subscribe, share this with someone who cares about lasting relationships, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.
Check out Lisa's work:
Book The Inner Work of Love
Marriage Mastery YouTube Channel
Learn more about Carla:
Website: https:/www.carlareeves.com/
Get The Differently Journal:
https://carlareeves.com/journal
Connect on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/differentlyco/
Connect on LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reevescarla/
Connect on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@differentlythepodcast
Go to https://carlareeves.com/free-class to get The Class schedule, sign up, and/or pass it on to a friend. Come hang out and learn with us for FREE!
Book a Complimentary Strategy Call with Carla: https://bookme.name/carlareeves/strategycall
- If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to share it with a friend.
- A free way to support our show is by leaving a five-star rating and review on your favorite podcast player. It’s a chance to tell us what you love about the show and it helps others discover it, too.
Thank you for listening!
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
A deep change in the way that we live requires a deep
change in the way that we think.
I'm Carla Reeves, and this isdifferently.
Hey everyone, I have a specialguest, a special friend, a kind
of a reconnection for us toohere on the show today.
And we're going to talk aboutmarriage, which I am so
(00:23):
passionate about.
And I was just telling Lisa,like I don't talk about that
enough on the podcast.
And so I am so excited to haveLisa Neller here with me today.
Welcome, Lisa.
Thank you, Carla.
I'm so happy to be here.
I'm so happy that you're hereand that we're reconnecting too.
We were just talking that we metbefore 2019, right?
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Yeah, probably a few years before that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
So yeah.
So we met through a mutualfriend.
And then we did do a little bitof coaching work together when
you were starting your coachingbusiness.
And then now you have reallychosen a focus for your work.
And I'd love for you to justtell us a little bit about you
and the season of life you're inand what you're doing today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Yeah.
Well, the season of life I'm inis what's some people would have
called the golden years yearsago.
I now feel like it's midlife,but it's not.
It's like I'm a little pastthat.
Um, I have been married 40years, and literally this year
we're celebrating in July our40th wedding anniversary.
(01:34):
So um, so that's been fun.
And and let me just say ithasn't been perfect.
And you know, we we had a fightat Christmas time, and two
Christmases before that we had afight.
So it's like it's a rollercoaster ride all the way
through.
And um, and you know, I about uha little over a year ago, I
(01:56):
chose to sort of focus onmarriage and relationships
because that is such a passionof mine.
So I started coaching in 2020after years of teaching yoga and
years of personal development.
Um, and then I took a academicprogram at the master's level
that was all about lifecoaching.
(02:17):
I was doing just the generalcoaching kind of thing, you
know, like a lot of coaches do.
They're like, oh, I can helpeveryone, you know.
And then at some point Irealized, no, I I need to
utilize what I'm what I'mpassionate about and what I'm
sort of gifted at, and that isrelationships.
And so that happened, uh, like Isaid, a little over a year ago.
(02:40):
And, you know, I'm just reallytrying to help people and
educate them and get the wordout.
And there's a whole bunch of us,right?
There's a lot of us helpers outthere, and there's a lot of uh
there are a lot of experts outthere, uh, internationally
renowned psychotherapists andpeople like that.
And you wonder, like, do we needanother relationship helper?
(03:01):
And my answer to that is yes, wedo, because not all of those
people are accessible.
So um, the more of us out therethat are helping other people in
this area or even in justgeneral coaching, the better.
So it's it's good for our mentalhealth, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
Well, I love that.
And it's it's so inspiring toone know that you've been
married for that long.
Like that is in and of itself, Ifeel like says so much.
And that you actually enjoy yourmarriage because I don't know
what I find as a coach is likejust painting a picture for
people that marriage can belife-giving is like something
(03:41):
people don't see or hear veryoften, that it can be good.
Yeah, really good.
Yeah.
Yeah, really good.
And so I'm curious for you,because I've had a journey there
too.
Um, what was what was the fairytale for you?
(04:01):
And what was what's the realmarriage look like that is
life-giving?
Because I think we come intomarriage like with the idea of a
sort of the fairy tale, or atleast I did, and I kind of had
to like that kind of crashed andburned, and then something else
got rebuilt, I think, in placeof that.
Was your journey similar, orwhat did that look like for you?
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah, I it did not look like a fairy tale for me
for a couple of reasons.
Number one, there was already alot of divorce in my family.
So while I haven't gone throughit myself, I've been adjacent to
it.
My mother was um married twice.
My brothers, well, all of mysiblings have been divorced and
(04:44):
remarried.
One four times, one three times,one two times, and one married
the same person twice.
My grandparents, you know, sothere's been a lot of that in my
family.
And I was like, I was a risk,honestly, when my husband
married me.
But um we also dated eightyears.
So we knew each other reallywell.
(05:05):
We were older, we had uh alittle bit of education, and
those kinds of thingsstatistically help couples who
get married.
So um, but there were thingsthat I realized once I got
married that um, you know,things I thought were okay to do
in a marriage that were notokay.
(05:27):
And let me just give you anexample from Yeah, I would love
that.
Oh yeah, well, there are acouple.
Um, there was the time I got inan argument with my husband and
I said F you to him.
And um it startled him, but alsohe didn't talk to me for a week.
And I was like, what?
(05:48):
It you know, it's just I justsaid this one thing, you know.
So when we finally sat down totalk about it, um, he was just
like, you know what, that's notsomething people say to each
other when they love each otherand when they're married.
And that's just not okay.
And so I was like, oh, okay,okay, okay, I get that, right?
(06:08):
And so I didn't say it to himagain until two years ago when I
got really angry and justifiablyso.
I was mad about something and Iblew up, and you know,
eventually we got over that, andI apologized for saying it, but
I also reminded him that I feltreally justified, but that it
(06:31):
wasn't me, it's not who I am,and I don't like being pushed to
the point of of being not who Iam.
So um and and another thing,like for example, you know, I I
would slam cabinets when I gotmad.
Well, that's something my mothermodeled for me.
And so I thought, well, that wasokay, and maybe that did
(06:51):
something, but it did nothing.
So things like that that I hadto like you say, unlearn.
Like, what did I have to unlearnabout marriage?
Well, you you don't get to saythose things if you want a happy
marriage, and you need to youneed to figure out your
emotional reactivity.
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
So true.
Well, and I think you also speakto like things that may seem
little, you know.
Sometimes though, the littlethings are the big things, or
those little things over timeare what chip away at a
marriage.
And uh what I find a lot oftimes is people have chipped
(07:31):
away so much that they and I wasmarried and divorced um before I
met my husband now, and thoselittle things chip away and chip
away and chip away, and thenyou're like, oh, I've fallen out
of love, but actually you'vejust chipped away so much you
can't see, you can't seeanymore.
Um, and I think that thoselittle things and restoring
(07:52):
integrity around those are soimportant that you speak of.
What do you feel like in yourwork with people that like come
up as like the greatestchallenges in marriage?
Well, show up again and again.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
Well, there's two things that come to mind.
The first is that usually webring in some kind of baggage or
trauma, and people have eitherbig trauma or little trauma.
And I'm just gonna define traumaas any event or anything that
happens that you are notresourced to handle.
And so there's a wide range ofthat, and we bring that into our
(08:34):
relationships.
That uh forms our um what wecall adapt adaptive person, uh,
or what Terry Real, who's apsychotherapist, calls the
adaptive child.
So we tend to react as if we area child when we're in fact an
adult, but we're reacting basedon feelings that we've had from
(08:58):
past trauma, right?
So that's that's one thing.
And then, like you were talkingabout chipping away at the
marriage and or therelationship, and that can be
just habitual stuff like neglector not putting any thought into
how you speak to your spouse orjust getting away with stuff,
(09:20):
and we do get away with stuff.
There are very pastrelationships that allow us to
be a continual nager or acontinual complainer or someone
who swears and gets away withit.
So, um, so there's those twothings.
And the second thing really ispart of not understanding
relational skills.
(09:41):
And I really feel like peopleneed to address their trauma
before they can address theirrelational skills, before they
can really start to build those.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
It does.
It does.
And I think we maybe we comeinto marriage thinking that um
that person is sort of gonnamake all that better.
And sometimes it does for alittle while.
And then those um that past hurtor trauma kind of rears its
head.
And I think that that's soimportant is like that there's
(10:14):
individual work, I think is alsowhat you're saying, right?
That we have to do in order tothrive together as a couple.
Um, you know, it's I and I Ithink I went into marriage the
first time, like just thinkinglike you got married and and
then it just kind of took careof itself.
And and that is it is so muchwork um that I didn't realize
(10:38):
there's a lot of work inmarriage.
Um, but that that work pays offso much over time.
Um what is your favorite placelike to work with people?
And I know I didn't prep youwith these questions, but that's
why I kind of like how it goesorganically.
Um but like what what what arethe places that you get excited
(11:00):
and lit up to work with peopleor that you've seen like the
biggest difference with people?
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
I I I think it uh comes right down to their
identity.
So I like to go really deepbecause people don't really
think of themselves as great orbeautiful or innately wise or
any of the uh characteristicsthat God gives us just as being
humans.
And so I like to get people toreally remember who they are or
(11:31):
who they can be.
So we tend to lose this sense ofidentity over time, and we take
on the identity of other peopleand or our spouse or whatever,
and we don't really understandwho we are.
And a lot of what I like to dois talk about identity, purpose,
(11:52):
and direction, because once youhave your identity, like you
know who you are, uh for you,Carla, as a child of God and
someone who may not have faiththe way you do, okay.
Well, you're a child of thisimmense universe that has, you
know, birthed you and you're apart of that.
And so you if you can recognizethat and understand that, then
(12:16):
you can have a little bit moreconfidence in the way you go
about life.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
I love that so much.
Um so how do you how do you workwith people around identity?
Like when for somebody whodoesn't know what that feels
like, um how do you remindpeople?
How do you get people to thatplace to remember, right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:43):
Yes, that's such a great question.
Because that leads me into ajournaling, a journaling
exercise that I know that youlove.
So I help people create what'scalled a declaration or an I am
statement.
These are not affirmations,they're statements that we come
(13:08):
up with that we recognize thisis who we are without our roles.
So, for example, you know, I amlove, I am patience, I am peace,
I am kindness, I am goodness.
You know where I'm going withthat, right?
That's biblical.
(13:29):
I'm faithfulness, I'mgentleness, I'm self-control.
And then um, you know, inaddition to that, I am the
universe ever expanding andfascinating.
I am calm like the calmestwater, and my spirit is
effervescent.
I am precious, I am deep likethe ocean and open like the
night sky.
(13:49):
These are like these are likeparts of my declaration.
And I don't expect other peopleto write the same thing that I
wrote, but there are what wecall adjectives, and because we
use language in our life, thatwe can draw upon language to get
to that place of who we are.
So, what I do is I help themcreate a list of those
(14:11):
attributes about themselves, andthen I ask them to write it out
in three different ways.
Uh you know, I am, Carla is, andshe is.
So, and then I ask them tomemorize it.
(14:32):
Well, not memorize it, but likerecord it and listen to it over
and over and over again.
Right.
So that gets into yoursubconscious mind.
And these are not these are notaffirmations, these are not
like, oh, I'm a millionaire whenyou're not, you know, these are
thoughts that you think ringtrue for you.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
And they're also thoughts that you can grow into
or I was gonna say, like apossibility to like live into.
Exactly.
That's so beautiful.
Well, and I think like if Ithink back over my life, like
having a vision of some kind,like for who I was as a mother
and for who I am as a wife, andfor how I show up in my
(15:13):
business, that has been so likefoundational because my fleshly
self, my worldly self can or mypast self can derail me so
quickly.
And to be able to remember, havesomething to hang on to that is
like a guiding, like so you canposture yourself in that
(15:36):
direction even when you don'tfeel like it.
Because if you want to have alife-giving marriage, you you
have to act in the face of yourfeelings, right?
You have to act according towhat you're committed to a lot
of time when you don't want to.
Yeah.
Because you're committed tosomething bigger than you.
(15:58):
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
And I love that you're I lovethat you've brought the identity
piece into the marriage workbecause it's it is so important.
And I think for my marriage,like the faith piece and the God
piece has been so instrumentalbecause it keeps us from
fighting each other.
(16:19):
And instead, we can turn to Godtogether and like work through
something or find wisdom forsomething instead of battling
each other.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
Yeah, for sure.
I and I also want to saysomething about what when you
talked earlier about um youdidn't realize it was so much
work.
And that that statement has gonearound the world a few times,
you know, like, oh, if you'remarried, it's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work.
Well, what is the work?
SPEAKER_01 (16:47):
I love that.
I'm so glad you're saying this.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
What are what is we don't get a manual when we get
married?
Nobody hands us the guide thatsays, you know, of course,
there's lots of books and thingsout there that help us along.
Um one little book that helpedme was um Don Miguel Rui's,
what's that book, The FourAgreements?
Yes.
I mean a simple little book,right?
(17:11):
But that book really helped mein my relationships.
So I think the work is, and youdidn't ask me this question, but
I the work is self-study and umand uh learning about who you
are, where you came from, whatyour triggers are, what your
trauma is, you know, who youwant to be and and who you are
(17:32):
at your identity, what's yourpurpose even in being married?
Like the purpose of beingmarried, we have a purpose,
right?
For that.
And then once you have thatpurpose and you understand, oh,
I'm supposed to experience thisin in a relationship, and then
you can have some direction onwhere to go with that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
I love that.
So speak to so what something Isee come up with clients is, and
this was really hard for me too,young in my marriage, was like
making space for his identityand making space for like who he
is when I maybe didn't like howhe was behaving or what he was
(18:10):
doing.
And that was that's really beensomething that has to be able to
give him space to be and growinto his identity was one of the
hardest things, but also hasgiven me the most freedom and
like ability to love him inbigger ways.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
Um what you're talking about is thought work
about your husband, about yourspouse.
Like you you're giving himspace, but also you're thinking
um you're you're not thinkingthe negative things about him.
You're you're you're thinkingabout the reality of him, right?
And this leads me to the secondpart of that I am declaration,
(18:54):
which is to have a marriagedocument or a marriage
declaration.
And do you mind if I share alittle bit of mine with you?
Oh my gosh, I would love that.
Because this is, you know, thisis part of the.
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
I think it helps people to grab a hold of like,
what is that and what would thatlook like and what does that
mean?
SPEAKER_00 (19:12):
For sure.
Um, uh first of all, uh justabout my husband's identity, I
will say that he's always lovedhimself.
And I've always felt that he'sjust always had a solid sense of
himself, and that's comfortingfor me because it's like when
you have an animal, you know,the animal wants to know you're
(19:33):
the boss, wants to know you'rethe loving caretaker, right?
Um, you got to be confident inthat, and so I am confident in
my husband.
So I start, I decided to createthis document, and I'm just
gonna read a few of thestatements I have because I have
I'm not gonna read all of them,but um, I start with I am love,
I lead with love, I am loving tomy beloved.
(19:56):
My heart expands when my loveris nearby.
He still lights me up afterdecades of togetherness.
My husband is my friend andprotector, he always has my
back.
I am joyful and fun with myhusband.
He is fun and funny, he makes melaugh often.
My husband deserves to berespected, loved, admired, and
(20:18):
adored.
We are gentle in languageindeed.
We use our heads and hearts whenexpressing ourselves.
My husband is committed to me,our relationship, and our
marriage.
He does things to surprise anddelight me.
I do the same for him.
My husband is my soulmate.
We were meant to be together.
So that's a part of what Iwrote.
(20:40):
And I have to tell you, I Ishared it with him.
unknown (20:45):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Oh my gosh.
That is so beautiful.
Yeah, he came in and I I justsent it to him via email.
I'm like, hey, I wrote this, youknow, uh about our about our
marriage.
And he came in and just gave mea big hug and a kiss and said,
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
And um so anyway, that is so beautiful, Lisa.
Really, like, really, really,really like to be married 40
years and to be um sending thatto him, like that is so
beautiful, and something I hopelike whoever is listening, like
paints a picture of what ispossible, you know, that you can
(21:24):
fall in love over and over andover again.
SPEAKER_00 (21:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I love that you said that.
What is possible?
Because that's that's what we'rehere to help people do, is find
that possibility.
SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
Yeah.
Wow.
So, what are the some of thethings you had to set down or
let go in order for that to bepossible?
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Ego, for sure.
Yes, you know, I mean, one ofthe biggest uh um damaging
things to relationships.
Is contempt and criticism andall that kind of thing.
And we have to let that go.
We have to, we have to neverthink we're better than our
partner.
We're equal in value and worth.
(22:11):
And we may have a lot ofdifferences and we may not be
compatible.
And if that's the case, youknow, sometimes I'm like, I'm
not against divorce.
Like if you can't really pull ittogether for both of you, maybe
it's not meant to be orwhatever.
But I just think you need toreally give your spouse the
(22:32):
benefit of the doubt.
He is equally as as important asyou are.
And um you just have to do thework and figure it out.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah.
Well, and I think men want toplay that role for women.
Um, I my husband has kind oftaught me that.
Like they want to be thatprotector, they want to be that
leader, they want to be a safespace for you where you can let
down.
And I think our culture, and aswomen, has, you know, kind of
fed us this story of like, youknow, be the boss babe and do
(23:07):
all the things and be so strongand be so busy.
And um, I think women arecraving to have that space to
let down, but often we don't letour men play that role.
And I remember reading this bookby Allison Armstrong.
Have you heard of her?
I have, yeah.
You have?
Yeah.
(23:27):
I can't remember the name of herbook.
Um anyways, in that book, shesaid something like as women, we
compare our husbands to theperfect woman.
And they will always disappoint.
That will always we will alwaysbe disappointed, instead of
allowing them to be what be intheir design.
(23:50):
And I thought that was so crazy.
Like that really struck me.
And there's a book I have totell you about, Lisa.
It's called Loving Him Strong.
Um, and I think you would loveit.
It's a small but mighty read.
Um and I think you would loveit.
And your clients are writing itdown right now.
Yeah, loving him strong.
Loving him strong.
I don't remember their name, butit's a couple, and they wrote
(24:13):
two books, and that's the onefor the woman.
Um, but it's a beautiful read.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
I love that.
You know, I I understand menwant to be leaders in their
relationship.
And I think women can be leaderstoo, but I agree.
With with humility, right?
Like, like lead with humilityand lead with grace.
unknown (24:32):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Um, so you mentioned somethingabout um when you and I talked
about midlife and how thataffects a marriage.
Um, and so I'd love to hear whatyou have to say about that.
Because it's an interestingtime.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
I guess it's one of the most challenging times.
Yeah, because you know, you'vebeen in the weeds, right?
You've been raising childrentypically.
You're raising children, you'regoing to all the events, you're
both working, you're exhausted.
Um, and then in midlife, youryou your hormones change.
You know, women go throughperimenopause and then and then
many pause menopause.
(25:14):
And um men also they have uh uhissue with their identity, and
that's why they call, you know,men have these midlife crises.
My husband went out and bought ared car during midlife, and it
was real thing.
It is a real thing, and um, andI think we we tend to part part
(25:36):
of that is just losing focus onthe relationship.
Like we just let that part go.
And so that's unfortunatebecause once you start letting
that go, it can be hard to reinit back in.
And there's also there's morestuff.
There's caregiving, there'sretirement potential retirement,
and what are we gonna do, andmoney and finances, and all that
stuff.
(25:56):
So it is a really tough time,and I think you have to be
really grounded to get throughthat smoothly.
So, so disconnection habit, youknow, happens through the
habitual neglect or whateverthat goes on through midlife,
and then you get to a placeafter that where you know, now
(26:20):
gray divorce is a big thing.
I don't know if you've heard ofgray divorce, but like no, I
haven't.
Statistically, um people who'vebeen married for decades, like
they're in their 50s and 60s,are now getting divorced because
they let all that go, you know?
So now they're just like life'stoo short.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Oh, it's like gray, meaning like a the stage of life
that you have gray hair, sort ofthe time of life divorce.
I got it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
Yes.
Yeah, wow.
Well, and I think that goes backto the work, right?
Like that's part of the work iscultivating that connection and
through all the changes in life.
I know um, like during COVID, weum our boys were older at that
point, and we started going onhikes together, and we did so
(27:10):
many hikes, like two-hour hikes.
And what that did, like wedidn't know, we were just going
hiking.
But what ended up happening isbecause we were by ourselves for
that extended period of time, wetalked about things that we
never would have talked about,like just things I didn't know
about him from his childhoodstories, or and we really like
(27:31):
built our friendship again afterraising our boys.
And that was so important forthis time, new time of our life.
Like we are having more funtogether because we restored
that friendship.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Oh, I love that.
That's beautiful, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
And I guess that's that is part of the work, right?
Is keeping that connectionalive.
It doesn't just stay alive onits own.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
It doesn't.
You have to talk, you have tokeep talking.
I mean, talk some more, talksome more, and you have to pat
each other on the butt once in awhile, and you know, say
something nice and yeah,consciously and make time and
make time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
I um I saw something in the Bible, and it was it was
something, and then in the Biblenotes, I don't remember what
scripture I was in, but it wastalking about genuine love, and
it said, genuine love requiresconcentration and effort.
And I thought that was so goodand so true.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
It is so true.
And um, I have defined love withso many other adjectives, you
know, because we think of loveas just this feeling, but it's
so much more.
It's leadership, it'sprotection, um, it's kindness.
There's so many things love is.
And it's good to ask ourselves,are we being that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Are we being that?
I loved your questions aroundthat, like even just the um the
peace, love.
You know, a lot of times I'lljust ask myself, like, what
would love do?
Or what would confidence do?
Or what would peace do?
And that often gives mesomething brand new, you know.
(29:13):
Yes.
So good.
Um, well, I would love you'vewritten a book, so tell us about
your book.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Oh, okay.
So um the book is called TheInner Work of Love: 10
Understandings for LastingRelationships.
And what it is, is it's justit's just a broad look at some
of the things that you want toconsider about relationships.
And um, so it's it's not superdetailed, it's short and sweet.
And I've gotten a lot ofpositive feedback from it.
(29:45):
So I think it can be helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
And I love that.
So those were like 10understandings that like you
kind of reflected on in your ownmarriage that made an impact.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
I'm putting you on the spot because I didn't
prepare you for this, but couldyou read us something, like one
of them or share one of them?
Would that be easy?
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Sure.
I mean, I'll just um I'll justgo to chapter two, um, and just
read a paragraph or two.
So we every relationship beginsin the mind.
Thoughts about yourself, yourpartner, your worth, and what's
possible in love are the seedsof your relational reality.
(30:32):
If your thoughts are rooted infear, scarcity, or unworthiness,
they will shape how you show up.
If your thoughts are grounded inlove, curiosity, and openness,
your relationships will reflectthat.
Thoughts lead to feelings,feelings drive behavior,
behavior creates patterns, andthose patterns become the habits
(30:54):
that define our relationships.
This is why doing the inner workof examining our thoughts and
beliefs is so powerful.
It's not about controlling everythought, it's about noticing
them and choosing which ones wewant to give power and attention
to.
SPEAKER_01 (31:11):
I love that.
I was just on a call thismorning with a client, and she
we were talking about hermarriage, and she was saying,
um, you know, but how if it's athought that like um like how do
I know if that thought, I needto give it attention, even if
it's like a negative one.
Like she didn't want to justshut the door on it.
(31:33):
And I was saying to her, like,the way that I see it is kind of
like your thoughts are likeclouds in the sky.
Like, you we don't have tonecessarily block them out, but
you God has given us agency andfree will and choice over which
ones we allow to lead.
And what you're saying is likethat is so important for
marriage.
Like, what thoughts are leadingthe way you show up in your
(31:56):
marriage?
Like, just that question aloneis so powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (32:01):
Yeah, I thought I think thought work is really the
key to a successful marriagebecause let's just say your
husband walks out the door,doesn't say goodbye to you
before he goes off to work.
And it could be a milliondifferent reasons why, right?
And then we make theassumptions, we have all the
thoughts, and we're just like,oh, I'm sure he's he's mad at me
or he's being a jerk orwhatever.
So we do need to take everythought, not every thought, but
(32:24):
most thoughts to inquiry andjust say, is that true?
You know, what can I absolutelybelieve it's true?
And you know that's ByronKatie's work.
Um, but yeah, you're on point,Carla.
That makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
It makes so much sense, and we can spin out so
quickly, or even ask, like, hey,you left quickly, like, is
everything okay?
Like, often that'll just clearit up so quickly.
For sure.
I mean, sometimes my husband canjust look give a certain look or
move a certain way, and I mightbe spinning in my thoughts, you
know.
We've gotten to where it's like,wait a minute, that just
(33:00):
happened and you said this, oryou did this, and I'm feeling
this.
Is that what you intended?
And 90% of the time, it's so faroff.
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
I love that.
That's getting clarity.
That's just getting clarity.
And I I feel it too.
Even after 40 years, I'll see alook on my husband's face and
I'll be like, oh no.
Exactly.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
You can have like a physical response in your body.
Yeah.
So powerful.
Um, okay, so let's talk a littlebit about intimacy.
So, because I think that's sucha huge piece.
I mean, I've seen it watching inmy first marriage and watching
clients and friends over theyears, like that is one of the
(33:47):
places that just can start toget farther and farther apart to
the point where people aremarried and sleeping in
different rooms, you know.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:57):
So I'd love to hear your thoughts about that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
Um, I don't know if you're talking about intimacy in
terms of just being close orintimacy in terms of sexuality.
Um, and there's a lot of reasonswhy.
Yeah.
Well, there are reasons whypeople drift apart in that area.
Sometimes in midlife, inparticular, you know, women put
on weight and they'reself-conscious and they they
(34:24):
don't feel comfortable in thebedroom.
Um, sometimes they're goingthrough illnesses, you know, and
they're in and out of surgery,and that has an effect on
intimacy.
Um, and I would say probablymore often than not, it's just
neglect and it's just a way ofthinking.
And what is it that you want inthat area of your life?
(34:46):
And I just to give people hopeand possibility, let me just say
that at 68 and 69, hubby and Iare still very intimate.
And yeah, that's it, that's animportant piece.
But also in the last month, I'vebeen sick and it just hasn't
been as great this last month.
But we'll get back to it.
(35:06):
So yeah.
So it's a delicate subject for alot of people.
Um, but but there's a lot toknow about it.
I mean, it's good for yourhealth, it's good for your
relationship.
Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:23):
Well, I think that's one of the things that I had to
get over.
And I think for a lot of women,it's like, oh, well, it's for
them, it's for the man.
Like he wants it more than I do.
Or um, you know, it's it'sreally benefits him.
And I I had to really challengethat thought for myself and
really learn that it is for metoo, and it is for us because it
(35:46):
is the differentiator betweenany other relationship, right?
Like, and and there is there, itis, I think, the part that can
really bring energy and life andlove to and fulfillment um to
your whole life.
Um, and it doesn't necessarilyhave to look like sex, it can
(36:07):
just be holding each other,holding hands, or looking in
each other's eyes, but likegetting back to some of those
things you did when you firstmet, right?
That were so easy to do.
You know, sometimes it gets hardto do.
And I guess that's when you haveto kind of look at what got in
the way and it's now made ithard to do.
(36:28):
Like those are the things yougot to go pull out and look at
and you know, pull apart, Iguess.
SPEAKER_00 (36:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's why it'simportant to stay connected
physically, like keep touching,you know, keep hugging, keep
doing the things that feel good.
Oftentimes, those things lead togreater intimacy and more and
better sex.
And educate yourself too.
I think we need to educateourselves on sex, um, just like
(36:56):
we educate ourselves on ourpsyches and our in our
relationships.
SPEAKER_01 (37:00):
So true.
A funny story is coming to mind,but um, my parents, like my mom
would make pot roast, and thatwas like their day to to be
intimate.
She had told us that later on inlife when we were older.
And so my sister and I likestill laugh about pot roast
because if I called her one dayand she's making a pot roast,
she wouldn't even have to sayanything.
(37:22):
I just knew that was theirspecial day.
But how cool! Like, we have tocreate rituals and things that
to cultivate that part of ourlife.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Yeah, I had a friend tell me that um her husband,
when he wanted it sex, he wouldlight a candle.
I'm like, oh wow, uh that couldbe dangerous.
Lighting, you know, because it'slike anytime you light a candle,
right?
It's like uh-oh.
SPEAKER_01 (37:48):
But it's true, like a simple thing can change, sort
of change the mood.
Um what else, Lisa?
What haven't we touched on thatyou get excited to talk about?
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Well, I don't know if you're gonna ask me this
question or not, because um, butyou were going to.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
I'm gonna ask you the very last question, the
different question.
But is there anything else thatwe didn't touch on that you were
excited to talk about?
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
Well, I think um one of the things you had um brought
up to me was that we we don'tneed a perfect partner, or I
didn't, I have maybe said thatin the past.
I'm not even sure if I remembersaying that, but it's true.
None of us is perfect.
Your partner doesn't have to beperfect.
But here's the thing (38:38):
you do need to have a receptive
partner, you have to havesomeone who's at least open to
listening to ideas and even toyour transformation.
So um I always think that asuccessful relationship, you
share values, you havechemistry, and you have some
(39:00):
intellectual connection with,and you also have a willingness
to uh let you sharpen the saw orbe sharpened, you know, both
sides have to be willing toadjust a little bit.
Um and that's for your ownpersonal growth and development,
really.
Like you grow through thepartnership.
But yeah, if you have a partnerthat's really, really unwilling
(39:23):
um not to not even go to therapywhen things are really bad or to
get coaching, that's not a goodsign, but don't give up.
You know, just keep trying untilyou exhaust all your
possibilities.
SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
Yeah, I think that's so good.
And I think that a lot of timesum one person doing the work can
make a difference.
SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
Absolutely.
I say a lot of times it onlytakes one to really shift the
relationship, to be theinstigator uh of positive
change.
SPEAKER_01 (39:56):
I like that.
That's a beautiful way to sayit.
Okay, so I think that I I just Ilove this conversation, Lisa.
Um, I think there is just onemore question, and that would be
what does differently mean toyou, Lisa?
SPEAKER_00 (40:14):
Well, I'm gonna go to something Terry Real.
I mentioned him earlier.
He's an internationally renownedpsychotherapist, and he loves
coaches too.
He thinks coaches should be outthere helping people as well as
therapists.
But he wrote a book called Us.
Let me see if I have the exacttitle.
Us.
It's called Us, Getting Past Youand Me to Build a Loving
(40:35):
Relationship.
And the reason he wrote it isyeah, the reason he wrote it is
because um he sees culturally inour society that we've become an
individualist, anindividualistic society.
Like everything's about you andme, me and him, you know, it's
like we're not a team.
(40:56):
And and Terry points out that ifyou work together consciously as
a we, as an us, as a team, um,that's different.
That's different than what ishappening societally.
unknown (41:09):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (41:10):
And I, you know, it's kind of funny because I
used to think that a long timeago.
It's me and Jim against theworld.
Right?
Like, not against in a bad way.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:21):
But it's like it's, you know, it's like you and your
husband talking to God, like weneed God because we got the
world out there we're dealingwith.
SPEAKER_01 (41:29):
Yes.
That is so crazy, Lisa, becausemy husband used to say that when
we first got together, he wouldsay it's us against the world.
And like that has completelydifferent meaning to me today,
because of what you just said.
Like, yes, we have God and it isus against the world.
(41:49):
And we do want the same things.
Sometimes it doesn't feel likethat, but if we can remember
that, that is so helpful.
That is so beautiful.
Thank you, my friend.
Thank you for shining your lightand for just really being a
possibility for what marriagecan be.
I'm so inspired myself justhearing about your marriage
(42:12):
today.
SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
Well, it's been my pleasure, and I'm grateful to be
your guest, Carla, anytime.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
Okay, so before we go though, share your podcast
where they can get your book andyour website and find out about
what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
Okay, so my podcast is called Midlife Marriage
Mastery.
I love that.
It's about getting good at therelationship.
And um, you can find me at LisaNellercoaching.com.
And what was the other thing youasked?
Oh, my book, The Inner Work ofLove, 10 Understandings for
Lasting Relationships, isavailable on Amazon through, you
(42:48):
know, Kindle or paperback.
Okay, amazing.
Yeah.
So thank you, Kyle.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
So go check out Lisa and all the good things that she
is doing.
She's a gem.
And Lisa, it was so fun toconnect with you again and to
everybody.
Just have a beautiful day and gotake something you heard and put
it right into practice in yourmarriage today.
Hey, thanks for listening allthe way to the end.
(43:15):
Before you move on with yourday, pause and capture one
thought or takeaway that stoodout to you.
Write it down so it doesn't getlost in the noise.
And if you're ready to godeeper, come join me in my free
monthly class, conversation andguided writing to help you see
things differently and moveforward with clarity.
(43:37):
Save your spot, Carlareeves.comforward slash free class.
A deep change in the way that we live requires a deep
change in the way that we think.
I'm Carla Reeves, and this isdifferently.
Hey everyone, I have a specialguest, a special friend, a kind
of a reconnection for us toohere on the show today.
And we're going to talk aboutmarriage, which I am so
(00:23):
passionate about.
And I was just telling Lisa,like I don't talk about that
enough on the podcast.
And so I am so excited to haveLisa Neller here with me today.
Welcome, Lisa.
Thank you, Carla.
I'm so happy to be here.
I'm so happy that you're hereand that we're reconnecting too.
We were just talking that we metbefore 2019, right?
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Yeah, probably a few years before that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
So yeah.
So we met through a mutualfriend.
And then we did do a little bitof coaching work together when
you were starting your coachingbusiness.
And then now you have reallychosen a focus for your work.
And I'd love for you to justtell us a little bit about you
and the season of life you're inand what you're doing today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Yeah.
Well, the season of life I'm inis what's some people would have
called the golden years yearsago.
I now feel like it's midlife,but it's not.
It's like I'm a little pastthat.
Um, I have been married 40years, and literally this year
we're celebrating in July our40th wedding anniversary.
(01:34):
So um, so that's been fun.
And and let me just say ithasn't been perfect.
And you know, we we had a fightat Christmas time, and two
Christmases before that we had afight.
So it's like it's a rollercoaster ride all the way
through.
And um, and you know, I about uha little over a year ago, I
(01:56):
chose to sort of focus onmarriage and relationships
because that is such a passionof mine.
So I started coaching in 2020after years of teaching yoga and
years of personal development.
Um, and then I took a academicprogram at the master's level
that was all about lifecoaching.
(02:17):
I was doing just the generalcoaching kind of thing, you
know, like a lot of coaches do.
They're like, oh, I can helpeveryone, you know.
And then at some point Irealized, no, I I need to
utilize what I'm what I'mpassionate about and what I'm
sort of gifted at, and that isrelationships.
And so that happened, uh, like Isaid, a little over a year ago.
(02:40):
And, you know, I'm just reallytrying to help people and
educate them and get the wordout.
And there's a whole bunch of us,right?
There's a lot of us helpers outthere, and there's a lot of uh
there are a lot of experts outthere, uh, internationally
renowned psychotherapists andpeople like that.
And you wonder, like, do we needanother relationship helper?
(03:01):
And my answer to that is yes, wedo, because not all of those
people are accessible.
So um, the more of us out therethat are helping other people in
this area or even in justgeneral coaching, the better.
So it's it's good for our mentalhealth, right?
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
Well, I love that.
And it's it's so inspiring toone know that you've been
married for that long.
Like that is in and of itself, Ifeel like says so much.
And that you actually enjoy yourmarriage because I don't know
what I find as a coach is likejust painting a picture for
people that marriage can belife-giving is like something
(03:41):
people don't see or hear veryoften, that it can be good.
Yeah, really good.
Yeah.
Yeah, really good.
And so I'm curious for you,because I've had a journey there
too.
Um, what was what was the fairytale for you?
(04:01):
And what was what's the realmarriage look like that is
life-giving?
Because I think we come intomarriage like with the idea of a
sort of the fairy tale, or atleast I did, and I kind of had
to like that kind of crashed andburned, and then something else
got rebuilt, I think, in placeof that.
Was your journey similar, orwhat did that look like for you?
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah, I it did not look like a fairy tale for me
for a couple of reasons.
Number one, there was already alot of divorce in my family.
So while I haven't gone throughit myself, I've been adjacent to
it.
My mother was um married twice.
My brothers, well, all of mysiblings have been divorced and
(04:44):
remarried.
One four times, one three times,one two times, and one married
the same person twice.
My grandparents, you know, sothere's been a lot of that in my
family.
And I was like, I was a risk,honestly, when my husband
married me.
But um we also dated eightyears.
So we knew each other reallywell.
(05:05):
We were older, we had uh alittle bit of education, and
those kinds of thingsstatistically help couples who
get married.
So um, but there were thingsthat I realized once I got
married that um, you know,things I thought were okay to do
in a marriage that were notokay.
(05:27):
And let me just give you anexample from Yeah, I would love
that.
Oh yeah, well, there are acouple.
Um, there was the time I got inan argument with my husband and
I said F you to him.
And um it startled him, but alsohe didn't talk to me for a week.
And I was like, what?
(05:48):
It you know, it's just I justsaid this one thing, you know.
So when we finally sat down totalk about it, um, he was just
like, you know what, that's notsomething people say to each
other when they love each otherand when they're married.
And that's just not okay.
And so I was like, oh, okay,okay, okay, I get that, right?
(06:08):
And so I didn't say it to himagain until two years ago when I
got really angry and justifiablyso.
I was mad about something and Iblew up, and you know,
eventually we got over that, andI apologized for saying it, but
I also reminded him that I feltreally justified, but that it
(06:31):
wasn't me, it's not who I am,and I don't like being pushed to
the point of of being not who Iam.
So um and and another thing,like for example, you know, I I
would slam cabinets when I gotmad.
Well, that's something my mothermodeled for me.
And so I thought, well, that wasokay, and maybe that did
(06:51):
something, but it did nothing.
So things like that that I hadto like you say, unlearn.
Like, what did I have to unlearnabout marriage?
Well, you you don't get to saythose things if you want a happy
marriage, and you need to youneed to figure out your
emotional reactivity.
SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
So true.
Well, and I think you also speakto like things that may seem
little, you know.
Sometimes though, the littlethings are the big things, or
those little things over timeare what chip away at a
marriage.
And uh what I find a lot oftimes is people have chipped
(07:31):
away so much that they and I wasmarried and divorced um before I
met my husband now, and thoselittle things chip away and chip
away and chip away, and thenyou're like, oh, I've fallen out
of love, but actually you'vejust chipped away so much you
can't see, you can't seeanymore.
Um, and I think that thoselittle things and restoring
(07:52):
integrity around those are soimportant that you speak of.
What do you feel like in yourwork with people that like come
up as like the greatestchallenges in marriage?
Well, show up again and again.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
Well, there's two things that come to mind.
The first is that usually webring in some kind of baggage or
trauma, and people have eitherbig trauma or little trauma.
And I'm just gonna define traumaas any event or anything that
happens that you are notresourced to handle.
And so there's a wide range ofthat, and we bring that into our
(08:34):
relationships.
That uh forms our um what wecall adapt adaptive person, uh,
or what Terry Real, who's apsychotherapist, calls the
adaptive child.
So we tend to react as if we area child when we're in fact an
adult, but we're reacting basedon feelings that we've had from
(08:58):
past trauma, right?
So that's that's one thing.
And then, like you were talkingabout chipping away at the
marriage and or therelationship, and that can be
just habitual stuff like neglector not putting any thought into
how you speak to your spouse orjust getting away with stuff,
(09:20):
and we do get away with stuff.
There are very pastrelationships that allow us to
be a continual nager or acontinual complainer or someone
who swears and gets away withit.
So, um, so there's those twothings.
And the second thing really ispart of not understanding
relational skills.
(09:41):
And I really feel like peopleneed to address their trauma
before they can address theirrelational skills, before they
can really start to build those.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (09:53):
It does.
It does.
And I think we maybe we comeinto marriage thinking that um
that person is sort of gonnamake all that better.
And sometimes it does for alittle while.
And then those um that past hurtor trauma kind of rears its
head.
And I think that that's soimportant is like that there's
(10:14):
individual work, I think is alsowhat you're saying, right?
That we have to do in order tothrive together as a couple.
Um, you know, it's I and I Ithink I went into marriage the
first time, like just thinkinglike you got married and and
then it just kind of took careof itself.
And and that is it is so muchwork um that I didn't realize
(10:38):
there's a lot of work inmarriage.
Um, but that that work pays offso much over time.
Um what is your favorite placelike to work with people?
And I know I didn't prep youwith these questions, but that's
why I kind of like how it goesorganically.
Um but like what what what arethe places that you get excited
(11:00):
and lit up to work with peopleor that you've seen like the
biggest difference with people?
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
I I I think it uh comes right down to their
identity.
So I like to go really deepbecause people don't really
think of themselves as great orbeautiful or innately wise or
any of the uh characteristicsthat God gives us just as being
humans.
And so I like to get people toreally remember who they are or
(11:31):
who they can be.
So we tend to lose this sense ofidentity over time, and we take
on the identity of other peopleand or our spouse or whatever,
and we don't really understandwho we are.
And a lot of what I like to dois talk about identity, purpose,
(11:52):
and direction, because once youhave your identity, like you
know who you are, uh for you,Carla, as a child of God and
someone who may not have faiththe way you do, okay.
Well, you're a child of thisimmense universe that has, you
know, birthed you and you're apart of that.
And so you if you can recognizethat and understand that, then
(12:16):
you can have a little bit moreconfidence in the way you go
about life.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
I love that so much.
Um so how do you how do you workwith people around identity?
Like when for somebody whodoesn't know what that feels
like, um how do you remindpeople?
How do you get people to thatplace to remember, right?
SPEAKER_00 (12:43):
Yes, that's such a great question.
Because that leads me into ajournaling, a journaling
exercise that I know that youlove.
So I help people create what'scalled a declaration or an I am
statement.
These are not affirmations,they're statements that we come
(13:08):
up with that we recognize thisis who we are without our roles.
So, for example, you know, I amlove, I am patience, I am peace,
I am kindness, I am goodness.
You know where I'm going withthat, right?
That's biblical.
(13:29):
I'm faithfulness, I'mgentleness, I'm self-control.
And then um, you know, inaddition to that, I am the
universe ever expanding andfascinating.
I am calm like the calmestwater, and my spirit is
effervescent.
I am precious, I am deep likethe ocean and open like the
night sky.
(13:49):
These are like these are likeparts of my declaration.
And I don't expect other peopleto write the same thing that I
wrote, but there are what wecall adjectives, and because we
use language in our life, thatwe can draw upon language to get
to that place of who we are.
So, what I do is I help themcreate a list of those
(14:11):
attributes about themselves, andthen I ask them to write it out
in three different ways.
Uh you know, I am, Carla is, andshe is.
So, and then I ask them tomemorize it.
(14:32):
Well, not memorize it, but likerecord it and listen to it over
and over and over again.
Right.
So that gets into yoursubconscious mind.
And these are not these are notaffirmations, these are not
like, oh, I'm a millionaire whenyou're not, you know, these are
thoughts that you think ringtrue for you.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
And they're also thoughts that you can grow into
or I was gonna say, like apossibility to like live into.
Exactly.
That's so beautiful.
Well, and I think like if Ithink back over my life, like
having a vision of some kind,like for who I was as a mother
and for who I am as a wife, andfor how I show up in my
(15:13):
business, that has been so likefoundational because my fleshly
self, my worldly self can or mypast self can derail me so
quickly.
And to be able to remember, havesomething to hang on to that is
like a guiding, like so you canposture yourself in that
(15:36):
direction even when you don'tfeel like it.
Because if you want to have alife-giving marriage, you you
have to act in the face of yourfeelings, right?
You have to act according towhat you're committed to a lot
of time when you don't want to.
Yeah.
Because you're committed tosomething bigger than you.
(15:58):
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
And I love that you're I lovethat you've brought the identity
piece into the marriage workbecause it's it is so important.
And I think for my marriage,like the faith piece and the God
piece has been so instrumentalbecause it keeps us from
fighting each other.
(16:19):
And instead, we can turn to Godtogether and like work through
something or find wisdom forsomething instead of battling
each other.
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
Yeah, for sure.
I and I also want to saysomething about what when you
talked earlier about um youdidn't realize it was so much
work.
And that that statement has gonearound the world a few times,
you know, like, oh, if you'remarried, it's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work.
Well, what is the work?
SPEAKER_01 (16:47):
I love that.
I'm so glad you're saying this.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
What are what is we don't get a manual when we get
married?
Nobody hands us the guide thatsays, you know, of course,
there's lots of books and thingsout there that help us along.
Um one little book that helpedme was um Don Miguel Rui's,
what's that book, The FourAgreements?
Yes.
I mean a simple little book,right?
(17:11):
But that book really helped mein my relationships.
So I think the work is, and youdidn't ask me this question, but
I the work is self-study and umand uh learning about who you
are, where you came from, whatyour triggers are, what your
trauma is, you know, who youwant to be and and who you are
(17:32):
at your identity, what's yourpurpose even in being married?
Like the purpose of beingmarried, we have a purpose,
right?
For that.
And then once you have thatpurpose and you understand, oh,
I'm supposed to experience thisin in a relationship, and then
you can have some direction onwhere to go with that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
I love that.
So speak to so what something Isee come up with clients is, and
this was really hard for me too,young in my marriage, was like
making space for his identityand making space for like who he
is when I maybe didn't like howhe was behaving or what he was
(18:10):
doing.
And that was that's really beensomething that has to be able to
give him space to be and growinto his identity was one of the
hardest things, but also hasgiven me the most freedom and
like ability to love him inbigger ways.
SPEAKER_00 (18:29):
Um what you're talking about is thought work
about your husband, about yourspouse.
Like you you're giving himspace, but also you're thinking
um you're you're not thinkingthe negative things about him.
You're you're you're thinkingabout the reality of him, right?
And this leads me to the secondpart of that I am declaration,
(18:54):
which is to have a marriagedocument or a marriage
declaration.
And do you mind if I share alittle bit of mine with you?
Oh my gosh, I would love that.
Because this is, you know, thisis part of the.
SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
I think it helps people to grab a hold of like,
what is that and what would thatlook like and what does that
mean?
SPEAKER_00 (19:12):
For sure.
Um, uh first of all, uh justabout my husband's identity, I
will say that he's always lovedhimself.
And I've always felt that he'sjust always had a solid sense of
himself, and that's comfortingfor me because it's like when
you have an animal, you know,the animal wants to know you're
(19:33):
the boss, wants to know you'rethe loving caretaker, right?
Um, you got to be confident inthat, and so I am confident in
my husband.
So I start, I decided to createthis document, and I'm just
gonna read a few of thestatements I have because I have
I'm not gonna read all of them,but um, I start with I am love,
I lead with love, I am loving tomy beloved.
(19:56):
My heart expands when my loveris nearby.
He still lights me up afterdecades of togetherness.
My husband is my friend andprotector, he always has my
back.
I am joyful and fun with myhusband.
He is fun and funny, he makes melaugh often.
My husband deserves to berespected, loved, admired, and
(20:18):
adored.
We are gentle in languageindeed.
We use our heads and hearts whenexpressing ourselves.
My husband is committed to me,our relationship, and our
marriage.
He does things to surprise anddelight me.
I do the same for him.
My husband is my soulmate.
We were meant to be together.
So that's a part of what Iwrote.
(20:40):
And I have to tell you, I Ishared it with him.
unknown (20:45):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Oh my gosh.
That is so beautiful.
Yeah, he came in and I I justsent it to him via email.
I'm like, hey, I wrote this, youknow, uh about our about our
marriage.
And he came in and just gave mea big hug and a kiss and said,
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (21:00):
And um so anyway, that is so beautiful, Lisa.
Really, like, really, really,really like to be married 40
years and to be um sending thatto him, like that is so
beautiful, and something I hopelike whoever is listening, like
paints a picture of what ispossible, you know, that you can
(21:24):
fall in love over and over andover again.
SPEAKER_00 (21:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I love that you said that.
What is possible?
Because that's that's what we'rehere to help people do, is find
that possibility.
SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
Yeah.
Wow.
So, what are the some of thethings you had to set down or
let go in order for that to bepossible?
SPEAKER_00 (21:49):
Ego, for sure.
Yes, you know, I mean, one ofthe biggest uh um damaging
things to relationships.
Is contempt and criticism andall that kind of thing.
And we have to let that go.
We have to, we have to neverthink we're better than our
partner.
We're equal in value and worth.
(22:11):
And we may have a lot ofdifferences and we may not be
compatible.
And if that's the case, youknow, sometimes I'm like, I'm
not against divorce.
Like if you can't really pull ittogether for both of you, maybe
it's not meant to be orwhatever.
But I just think you need toreally give your spouse the
(22:32):
benefit of the doubt.
He is equally as as important asyou are.
And um you just have to do thework and figure it out.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
Yeah.
Well, and I think men want toplay that role for women.
Um, I my husband has kind oftaught me that.
Like they want to be thatprotector, they want to be that
leader, they want to be a safespace for you where you can let
down.
And I think our culture, and aswomen, has, you know, kind of
fed us this story of like, youknow, be the boss babe and do
(23:07):
all the things and be so strongand be so busy.
And um, I think women arecraving to have that space to
let down, but often we don't letour men play that role.
And I remember reading this bookby Allison Armstrong.
Have you heard of her?
I have, yeah.
You have?
Yeah.
(23:27):
I can't remember the name of herbook.
Um anyways, in that book, shesaid something like as women, we
compare our husbands to theperfect woman.
And they will always disappoint.
That will always we will alwaysbe disappointed, instead of
allowing them to be what be intheir design.
(23:50):
And I thought that was so crazy.
Like that really struck me.
And there's a book I have totell you about, Lisa.
It's called Loving Him Strong.
Um, and I think you would loveit.
It's a small but mighty read.
Um and I think you would loveit.
And your clients are writing itdown right now.
Yeah, loving him strong.
Loving him strong.
I don't remember their name, butit's a couple, and they wrote
(24:13):
two books, and that's the onefor the woman.
Um, but it's a beautiful read.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
I love that.
You know, I I understand menwant to be leaders in their
relationship.
And I think women can be leaderstoo, but I agree.
With with humility, right?
Like, like lead with humilityand lead with grace.
unknown (24:32):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Um, so you mentioned somethingabout um when you and I talked
about midlife and how thataffects a marriage.
Um, and so I'd love to hear whatyou have to say about that.
Because it's an interestingtime.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
I guess it's one of the most challenging times.
Yeah, because you know, you'vebeen in the weeds, right?
You've been raising childrentypically.
You're raising children, you'regoing to all the events, you're
both working, you're exhausted.
Um, and then in midlife, youryou your hormones change.
You know, women go throughperimenopause and then and then
many pause menopause.
(25:14):
And um men also they have uh uhissue with their identity, and
that's why they call, you know,men have these midlife crises.
My husband went out and bought ared car during midlife, and it
was real thing.
It is a real thing, and um, andI think we we tend to part part
(25:36):
of that is just losing focus onthe relationship.
Like we just let that part go.
And so that's unfortunatebecause once you start letting
that go, it can be hard to reinit back in.
And there's also there's morestuff.
There's caregiving, there'sretirement potential retirement,
and what are we gonna do, andmoney and finances, and all that
stuff.
(25:56):
So it is a really tough time,and I think you have to be
really grounded to get throughthat smoothly.
So, so disconnection habit, youknow, happens through the
habitual neglect or whateverthat goes on through midlife,
and then you get to a placeafter that where you know, now
(26:20):
gray divorce is a big thing.
I don't know if you've heard ofgray divorce, but like no, I
haven't.
Statistically, um people who'vebeen married for decades, like
they're in their 50s and 60s,are now getting divorced because
they let all that go, you know?
So now they're just like life'stoo short.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
Oh, it's like gray, meaning like a the stage of life
that you have gray hair, sort ofthe time of life divorce.
I got it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (26:48):
Yes.
Yeah, wow.
Well, and I think that goes backto the work, right?
Like that's part of the work iscultivating that connection and
through all the changes in life.
I know um, like during COVID, weum our boys were older at that
point, and we started going onhikes together, and we did so
(27:10):
many hikes, like two-hour hikes.
And what that did, like wedidn't know, we were just going
hiking.
But what ended up happening isbecause we were by ourselves for
that extended period of time, wetalked about things that we
never would have talked about,like just things I didn't know
about him from his childhoodstories, or and we really like
(27:31):
built our friendship again afterraising our boys.
And that was so important forthis time, new time of our life.
Like we are having more funtogether because we restored
that friendship.
SPEAKER_00 (27:46):
Oh, I love that.
That's beautiful, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:48):
And I guess that's that is part of the work, right?
Is keeping that connectionalive.
It doesn't just stay alive onits own.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
It doesn't.
You have to talk, you have tokeep talking.
I mean, talk some more, talksome more, and you have to pat
each other on the butt once in awhile, and you know, say
something nice and yeah,consciously and make time and
make time.
SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
I um I saw something in the Bible, and it was it was
something, and then in the Biblenotes, I don't remember what
scripture I was in, but it wastalking about genuine love, and
it said, genuine love requiresconcentration and effort.
And I thought that was so goodand so true.
SPEAKER_00 (28:30):
It is so true.
And um, I have defined love withso many other adjectives, you
know, because we think of loveas just this feeling, but it's
so much more.
It's leadership, it'sprotection, um, it's kindness.
There's so many things love is.
And it's good to ask ourselves,are we being that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
Are we being that?
I loved your questions aroundthat, like even just the um the
peace, love.
You know, a lot of times I'lljust ask myself, like, what
would love do?
Or what would confidence do?
Or what would peace do?
And that often gives mesomething brand new, you know.
(29:13):
Yes.
So good.
Um, well, I would love you'vewritten a book, so tell us about
your book.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Oh, okay.
So um the book is called TheInner Work of Love: 10
Understandings for LastingRelationships.
And what it is, is it's justit's just a broad look at some
of the things that you want toconsider about relationships.
And um, so it's it's not superdetailed, it's short and sweet.
And I've gotten a lot ofpositive feedback from it.
(29:45):
So I think it can be helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
And I love that.
So those were like 10understandings that like you
kind of reflected on in your ownmarriage that made an impact.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (29:56):
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
I'm putting you on the spot because I didn't
prepare you for this, but couldyou read us something, like one
of them or share one of them?
Would that be easy?
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Sure.
I mean, I'll just um I'll justgo to chapter two, um, and just
read a paragraph or two.
So we every relationship beginsin the mind.
Thoughts about yourself, yourpartner, your worth, and what's
possible in love are the seedsof your relational reality.
(30:32):
If your thoughts are rooted infear, scarcity, or unworthiness,
they will shape how you show up.
If your thoughts are grounded inlove, curiosity, and openness,
your relationships will reflectthat.
Thoughts lead to feelings,feelings drive behavior,
behavior creates patterns, andthose patterns become the habits
(30:54):
that define our relationships.
This is why doing the inner workof examining our thoughts and
beliefs is so powerful.
It's not about controlling everythought, it's about noticing
them and choosing which ones wewant to give power and attention
to.
SPEAKER_01 (31:11):
I love that.
I was just on a call thismorning with a client, and she
we were talking about hermarriage, and she was saying,
um, you know, but how if it's athought that like um like how do
I know if that thought, I needto give it attention, even if
it's like a negative one.
Like she didn't want to justshut the door on it.
(31:33):
And I was saying to her, like,the way that I see it is kind of
like your thoughts are likeclouds in the sky.
Like, you we don't have tonecessarily block them out, but
you God has given us agency andfree will and choice over which
ones we allow to lead.
And what you're saying is likethat is so important for
marriage.
Like, what thoughts are leadingthe way you show up in your
(31:56):
marriage?
Like, just that question aloneis so powerful.
SPEAKER_00 (32:01):
Yeah, I thought I think thought work is really the
key to a successful marriagebecause let's just say your
husband walks out the door,doesn't say goodbye to you
before he goes off to work.
And it could be a milliondifferent reasons why, right?
And then we make theassumptions, we have all the
thoughts, and we're just like,oh, I'm sure he's he's mad at me
or he's being a jerk orwhatever.
So we do need to take everythought, not every thought, but
(32:24):
most thoughts to inquiry andjust say, is that true?
You know, what can I absolutelybelieve it's true?
And you know that's ByronKatie's work.
Um, but yeah, you're on point,Carla.
That makes so much sense.
SPEAKER_01 (32:38):
It makes so much sense, and we can spin out so
quickly, or even ask, like, hey,you left quickly, like, is
everything okay?
Like, often that'll just clearit up so quickly.
For sure.
I mean, sometimes my husband canjust look give a certain look or
move a certain way, and I mightbe spinning in my thoughts, you
know.
We've gotten to where it's like,wait a minute, that just
(33:00):
happened and you said this, oryou did this, and I'm feeling
this.
Is that what you intended?
And 90% of the time, it's so faroff.
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
I love that.
That's getting clarity.
That's just getting clarity.
And I I feel it too.
Even after 40 years, I'll see alook on my husband's face and
I'll be like, oh no.
Exactly.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (33:23):
You can have like a physical response in your body.
Yeah.
So powerful.
Um, okay, so let's talk a littlebit about intimacy.
So, because I think that's sucha huge piece.
I mean, I've seen it watching inmy first marriage and watching
clients and friends over theyears, like that is one of the
(33:47):
places that just can start toget farther and farther apart to
the point where people aremarried and sleeping in
different rooms, you know.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:57):
So I'd love to hear your thoughts about that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:02):
Um, I don't know if you're talking about intimacy in
terms of just being close orintimacy in terms of sexuality.
Um, and there's a lot of reasonswhy.
Yeah.
Well, there are reasons whypeople drift apart in that area.
Sometimes in midlife, inparticular, you know, women put
on weight and they'reself-conscious and they they
(34:24):
don't feel comfortable in thebedroom.
Um, sometimes they're goingthrough illnesses, you know, and
they're in and out of surgery,and that has an effect on
intimacy.
Um, and I would say probablymore often than not, it's just
neglect and it's just a way ofthinking.
And what is it that you want inthat area of your life?
(34:46):
And I just to give people hopeand possibility, let me just say
that at 68 and 69, hubby and Iare still very intimate.
And yeah, that's it, that's animportant piece.
But also in the last month, I'vebeen sick and it just hasn't
been as great this last month.
But we'll get back to it.
(35:06):
So yeah.
So it's a delicate subject for alot of people.
Um, but but there's a lot toknow about it.
I mean, it's good for yourhealth, it's good for your
relationship.
Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:23):
Well, I think that's one of the things that I had to
get over.
And I think for a lot of women,it's like, oh, well, it's for
them, it's for the man.
Like he wants it more than I do.
Or um, you know, it's it'sreally benefits him.
And I I had to really challengethat thought for myself and
really learn that it is for metoo, and it is for us because it
(35:46):
is the differentiator betweenany other relationship, right?
Like, and and there is there, itis, I think, the part that can
really bring energy and life andlove to and fulfillment um to
your whole life.
Um, and it doesn't necessarilyhave to look like sex, it can
(36:07):
just be holding each other,holding hands, or looking in
each other's eyes, but likegetting back to some of those
things you did when you firstmet, right?
That were so easy to do.
You know, sometimes it gets hardto do.
And I guess that's when you haveto kind of look at what got in
the way and it's now made ithard to do.
(36:28):
Like those are the things yougot to go pull out and look at
and you know, pull apart, Iguess.
SPEAKER_00 (36:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's why it'simportant to stay connected
physically, like keep touching,you know, keep hugging, keep
doing the things that feel good.
Oftentimes, those things lead togreater intimacy and more and
better sex.
And educate yourself too.
I think we need to educateourselves on sex, um, just like
(36:56):
we educate ourselves on ourpsyches and our in our
relationships.
SPEAKER_01 (37:00):
So true.
A funny story is coming to mind,but um, my parents, like my mom
would make pot roast, and thatwas like their day to to be
intimate.
She had told us that later on inlife when we were older.
And so my sister and I likestill laugh about pot roast
because if I called her one dayand she's making a pot roast,
she wouldn't even have to sayanything.
(37:22):
I just knew that was theirspecial day.
But how cool! Like, we have tocreate rituals and things that
to cultivate that part of ourlife.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Yeah, I had a friend tell me that um her husband,
when he wanted it sex, he wouldlight a candle.
I'm like, oh wow, uh that couldbe dangerous.
Lighting, you know, because it'slike anytime you light a candle,
right?
It's like uh-oh.
SPEAKER_01 (37:48):
But it's true, like a simple thing can change, sort
of change the mood.
Um what else, Lisa?
What haven't we touched on thatyou get excited to talk about?
SPEAKER_00 (38:03):
Well, I don't know if you're gonna ask me this
question or not, because um, butyou were going to.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
I'm gonna ask you the very last question, the
different question.
But is there anything else thatwe didn't touch on that you were
excited to talk about?
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
Well, I think um one of the things you had um brought
up to me was that we we don'tneed a perfect partner, or I
didn't, I have maybe said thatin the past.
I'm not even sure if I remembersaying that, but it's true.
None of us is perfect.
Your partner doesn't have to beperfect.
But here's the thing (38:38):
you do need to have a receptive
partner, you have to havesomeone who's at least open to
listening to ideas and even toyour transformation.
So um I always think that asuccessful relationship, you
share values, you havechemistry, and you have some
(39:00):
intellectual connection with,and you also have a willingness
to uh let you sharpen the saw orbe sharpened, you know, both
sides have to be willing toadjust a little bit.
Um and that's for your ownpersonal growth and development,
really.
Like you grow through thepartnership.
But yeah, if you have a partnerthat's really, really unwilling
(39:23):
um not to not even go to therapywhen things are really bad or to
get coaching, that's not a goodsign, but don't give up.
You know, just keep trying untilyou exhaust all your
possibilities.
SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
Yeah, I think that's so good.
And I think that a lot of timesum one person doing the work can
make a difference.
SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
Absolutely.
I say a lot of times it onlytakes one to really shift the
relationship, to be theinstigator uh of positive
change.
SPEAKER_01 (39:56):
I like that.
That's a beautiful way to sayit.
Okay, so I think that I I just Ilove this conversation, Lisa.
Um, I think there is just onemore question, and that would be
what does differently mean toyou, Lisa?
SPEAKER_00 (40:14):
Well, I'm gonna go to something Terry Real.
I mentioned him earlier.
He's an internationally renownedpsychotherapist, and he loves
coaches too.
He thinks coaches should be outthere helping people as well as
therapists.
But he wrote a book called Us.
Let me see if I have the exacttitle.
Us.
It's called Us, Getting Past Youand Me to Build a Loving
(40:35):
Relationship.
And the reason he wrote it isyeah, the reason he wrote it is
because um he sees culturally inour society that we've become an
individualist, anindividualistic society.
Like everything's about you andme, me and him, you know, it's
like we're not a team.
(40:56):
And and Terry points out that ifyou work together consciously as
a we, as an us, as a team, um,that's different.
That's different than what ishappening societally.
unknown (41:09):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (41:10):
And I, you know, it's kind of funny because I
used to think that a long timeago.
It's me and Jim against theworld.
Right?
Like, not against in a bad way.
SPEAKER_01 (41:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:21):
But it's like it's, you know, it's like you and your
husband talking to God, like weneed God because we got the
world out there we're dealingwith.
SPEAKER_01 (41:29):
Yes.
That is so crazy, Lisa, becausemy husband used to say that when
we first got together, he wouldsay it's us against the world.
And like that has completelydifferent meaning to me today,
because of what you just said.
Like, yes, we have God and it isus against the world.
(41:49):
And we do want the same things.
Sometimes it doesn't feel likethat, but if we can remember
that, that is so helpful.
That is so beautiful.
Thank you, my friend.
Thank you for shining your lightand for just really being a
possibility for what marriagecan be.
I'm so inspired myself justhearing about your marriage
(42:12):
today.
SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
Well, it's been my pleasure, and I'm grateful to be
your guest, Carla, anytime.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
Okay, so before we go though, share your podcast
where they can get your book andyour website and find out about
what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
Okay, so my podcast is called Midlife Marriage
Mastery.
I love that.
It's about getting good at therelationship.
And um, you can find me at LisaNellercoaching.com.
And what was the other thing youasked?
Oh, my book, The Inner Work ofLove, 10 Understandings for
Lasting Relationships, isavailable on Amazon through, you
(42:48):
know, Kindle or paperback.
Okay, amazing.
Yeah.
So thank you, Kyle.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
So go check out Lisa and all the good things that she
is doing.
She's a gem.
And Lisa, it was so fun toconnect with you again and to
everybody.
Just have a beautiful day and gotake something you heard and put
it right into practice in yourmarriage today.
Hey, thanks for listening allthe way to the end.
(43:15):
Before you move on with yourday, pause and capture one
thought or takeaway that stoodout to you.
Write it down so it doesn't getlost in the noise.
And if you're ready to godeeper, come join me in my free
monthly class, conversation andguided writing to help you see
things differently and moveforward with clarity.
(43:37):
Save your spot, Carlareeves.comforward slash free class.
Popular Podcasts
Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb
Joy is essential. And it's also elusive. You can't order it, borrow it, or simply hope it into life. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence: The Joy 101 Podcast with Hoda! Best known for her Emmy-winning work and co-anchoring Today, Hoda Kotb infuses her authenticity, curiosity, and warmth into conversations with the world’s most fascinating people. Entertainment legends, sport icons, wellness experts, and everyday folks will share how they find, allow, and experience joy. Hoda will offer her own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced, harmonious life. If you're craving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune in to these candid, uplifting, and moving on-air chats. Joy after a breakup, joy as an empty-nester, joy after loss, joy as a caretaker — Hoda's new podcast will speak to you. Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb, an iHeartPodcast.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com