S1:E10 - Creative Transformation with Ryuji Uematsu from Rysen - Digital Discovery Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
All right, Ruji, thank you so much for joining the show today.

(00:13):
Hey, how you been?
No, my pleasure to be on this show.
I've been great.
And look, thanks for reaching out.
This should be fun.
Yeah, no, no worries at all.
I had a few people asking about creative and in my last podcast for the audience, if they
haven't seen that podcast, it's the 10 top strategies for Black Friday.

(00:33):
One of the things we were looking at was the execution and creative and UX and design.
And I knew coming on the show because we'd already had a chat.
So maybe if we could start with your background, mate, what you've been up to and your career.
Thanks, Nig.
So look, my name is Ruji Umatsu.
I'm the managing director of Risen.
Risen is a specialist UX, UI agency.

(00:56):
We've obviously had the pleasure of working with you, Nig, at many of your past places.
Yeah.
And look, we've been around for 19 years.
So we've been doing this for a long, long time.
We started the business myself and Selly, my business partner, back in 2005.
And it's still going.

(01:16):
I've seen some of the work you guys have been putting out.
It's just amazing.
So in terms of your background.
So you came from Japan at the age of four, you were telling me.
Yes.
Yes.
So I guess my dad was a bit of a wanderer.
So back in the day, he traveled the world, you know, all over Europe, et cetera, America,

(01:39):
and he fell in love with Australia.
And so he wanted to, you know, bring his family and raise them in Australia.
So when I was four, our immediate family emigrated from Japan to Sydney.
And then I guess, yes, since then, we've sort of, you know, grown and lived here.
So my dad was a chef.

(01:59):
He was, I guess, quite entrepreneurial and he's run a lot of restaurants in Sydney.
So the Japanese restaurants.
And then, yeah, look, my mom's also from, I guess, an entrepreneurial background.
You know, she runs her own real estate agency.
Her parents ran their own sweets, I guess, factory and business in Japan.
But yeah, it came over.

(02:20):
Yeah, I did my growing up in sort of neutral bay Mossman.
And then look, ended up going to, you know, high school, North Sydney boys.
And at the time, look, I've got an interesting story.
At the time, I think it was in year six, they started to do sort of tests for every student

(02:41):
in year six to sort of get them into different schools.
And so we did our test one day and look, I was, you know, one of the nerdy kids.
So I thought I did well.
But funnily, about two or three days later, somebody from the Department of Education
came back to our school, came to our class, knocked on the door, pointed to me and said,
excuse me, sir, we need you to do the test again.

(03:04):
And I'm like, what do you mean?
And so I did the test again.
It was this exact same test.
And you know, the first time I did it, I thought I did well.
But the second time, obviously, I could pick up on maybe some mistakes that I've made.
So I did it again.
Yeah.
I submitted it.
And yeah.
And they came back and said they lost my initial or original test.
And that's why they got me to do it again.

(03:26):
And I think I did, you know, got a really great score.
And that resulted in you being the smartest year six student in New South Wales, was it?
Yeah, something like that.
They said my test score was off the Richter scales.
So yeah, it could be immense.
So it would be sitting next to Stephen Hawking and then talking about the theory of everything

(03:46):
with Michikaku.
Yes, something like that.
But you know, that's, that's, I guess, the benefit of doing the test twice.
Tell us maybe a bit more about your move into sort of this creative side of your CV.
At high school, a few friends and I were really interested in, I guess, designing products,
the product design, your traditional industrial design.

(04:09):
And I actually really wanted to sort of design cars and in particular, sort of Formula One
cars.
And so I looked at, you know, what sort of, I guess, courses are out there that it'll
maybe train you to become a car designer.
And that's a cool job, like designing cars.
It'd be amazing.
So there was a course called industrial design, but straight away, one of the things that

(04:31):
you learn when you, I guess, do an industrial design course is that look, there's very few
opportunities, especially in Australia for product design, especially back then.
And this is mid to late 90s.
And so I guess throughout that course, what I discovered was, you know, enjoying that
creative process, the creative side of things.
So helping to not just design products, but also to present products, you know, when it

(04:56):
comes time for, I guess, presenting your products, you know, end of year sort of shows, etc.
And we fell in love, or a bunch of us at Uni fell in love with, yeah, sort of the presentation
side, you know, delivering awesome.
Back then it was, you know, what we would call multimedia presentations.
And that's kind of how we, or I guess, sort of progressed away from your traditional product

(05:20):
design and more into sort of graphic design.
And I guess what we would call now UX and UI.
Amazing.
So super interesting field.
And anybody, would you recommend that anybody getting into the field?
You got any tips for them?
Look, yeah, you're spot on, Nigel.
It's, there's so much interest in this space.

(05:42):
And the beauty is, I think that the barrier of entry has sort of lowered, you know, it's
a lot easier to become a designer.
It's a lot easier to learn the process, and especially with, you know, the changes in
AI, this space is going to, I think, change dramatically.
I think from there on, you know, you can sort of build a, you know, a strong skillset and,

(06:04):
you know, you can do well.
It's less about, you know, the technical ability of, you know, can I use this application or
that?
It's very much about, yeah, understanding the customer and trying to learn from there.
You know, what would be an awesome experience or what sort of products or services, you
know, might they be interested in?
You mentioned some work you did for Toyota, I think, in the past, and that was on, I think,

(06:28):
your, your brief.
I remember when we, you and I spoke for first up and there was some work I think you did
for Hyundai as well.
Yeah, so there was a bunch.
So I guess at uni, when we realized that there were no job opportunities as industrial designers,
a bunch of us, I think 10 or 12 of us got together and I guess formed a student company,

(06:52):
basically a company whilst we were at uni to gain some experience.
And so through that, we were able to do some work for, you know, some of our friends, you
know, some of the local businesses.
You know, there was a famous restaurant called East Ocean Chinese Restaurant in Chinatown
that we did some work for.
But we were also lucky enough to do some product design and graphic design work for Optus.

(07:16):
So yeah, early on, we tried to gain some experience and tried to, I guess, see what other opportunities
were out there outside of, you know, your traditional industrial design, product design.
And then sort of after uni, that, you know, the student company gave us some great experience.
It allowed a bunch of us to get into the types of roles we were interested in.

(07:38):
And back then it was more, I guess, sort of graphic design, visual design.
I was lucky enough to go to a company called Spike.
Spike was one of the first dot com darlings.
It was the first, I guess, web agency in the world to list on the stock exchange.
Not really.
Yes, it was a little bit before the dot com bubble.

(08:00):
Yeah, yeah, right.
They were known for throwing big parties.
You know, they had offices in LA, Tokyo, Hong Kong.
Yeah.
And it was back in the day when, you know, the internet was still quite young and companies
were only starting to get a feel of what could or couldn't be done.

(08:21):
And so back then, yeah, we had some great clients, you know, Toyota, both here and globally.
We had other clients like Telstra, you know, Mars, the confectionary business, NEC, Panasonic.
Yeah, so we were able to back in those days work on, I guess, very basic but at the time

(08:42):
quite innovative websites.
And you know, we're talking like little microsites.
I remember doing a five page website for Toyota.
And you know, we would charge them literally a million dollars for five hard coded web
pages.
And I know you're not joking.

(09:05):
Yeah.
And then in addition, you know, you would, well, the company would charge a hundred thousand
dollars per month maintenance to maintain, you know, five pages.
Yeah, it was, it was crazy.
It was, you know, I guess everyone was still trying to understand what the web could and
couldn't do.
Yes.
The bigger companies back then jumped on just to try some things, you know, put things out

(09:26):
there to see big marketing budgets.
Yeah.
And look, to be honest, back then there were very little, well, there was next to no e-commerce.
So it was more the corporates and the big brands that were jumping on first just to
build their online presence, et cetera.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's amazing, isn't it?
How far things have come.
But I suppose it's like anything after a while it becomes cheaper.

(09:49):
Any new technologies or any leap step in technologies are usually for the elite, as they say, you
know, or the bigger businesses that can afford to dabble in it and have the bigger budgets
and then it becomes more accessible because there's more skills, there's more resources
available.
There's, it's matured a little bit.
Yeah.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Wow.
A million bucks for a five page website.

(10:11):
One of the things we found was a lot of these agencies that were very, not so much hard
to get hold of, but they just weren't very personable.
You know, they, it was all kind of all smoke and mirrors.
Let's just say it was a lot of, you know, shiny silver stuff going on.
And they didn't seem, none of it really seemed real.

(10:32):
We were, we were ringing around and we were trying to get quotes.
And I remember this is to do the rebranding for Big Brown Box at the time.
And John Hughes, who I just actually had just on the podcast, had a retail session with
Steve Colmar from Retail Oasis.
You know, we were struggling to find agencies that were approachable, who really had the

(10:55):
right ethos.
And when we met you guys, we were like, this is a real relief.
You know, it was a breath of fresh air that we could just come in and sit down and just
have a conversation with you as, you know, just really frank discussions about what we
could do, how we would do it, how long it would take, how much it would cost.
Maybe give us an understanding of how, how over the years that has been, has worked really

(11:18):
well for you as an agency.
Thank you for your kind words.
Very grateful.
Yeah, look, I guess, Selly, my business partner and I started rising more out of passion and
love of design was passion over profit.
You know, and we knew that if we did things well, you know, the money would follow and

(11:39):
that's fine.
But we weren't, I guess, focused on, you know, money or profit.
It was more about how do we help us help our customers with awesome designs, with awesome,
you know, experiences.
And I guess, yes, back to your point, it was all about just caring.
You know, we understand that by helping you guys, it will also help us grow as an agency.

(12:00):
And look, we've sort of, I guess, held on to that ethos about, you know, basically trying
to help others through, you know, the skill sets that we have, which is essentially design,
you know, going from chaos to clarity and what that process looks like.
Yeah, that's so true.
And when you say that, I have these thoughts of back in 2005, obviously, you've started

(12:23):
this and you'd already done sort of this work with Toyota and you know, you're starting
to get into the web already and sort of tending to go that way.
But I remember, you know, experiencing things with senior executives in certain organizations
and they'll say things like, can we have this flashing over here and then can we have like
a scrolling bar come across the screen and say, click here and then can we have, you

(12:47):
know, so that taking that chaos and making clarity.
And I've said this a few times in my podcast is taking what is easy to make things complicated
and it's hard to make them simple and keep that relevance to the audience, you know.
And I think every yeah, and I think that that's that's where the experience and you can't

(13:09):
replace that.
You get that through this, you know, I call it a law of process, but it's an agency or
the people within the organization go through in order to understand what the client actually
wants because they might want something, you know, scrolling and flashy, but they'll end
up looking like Ling Ling cars, you know, have you seen Ling Ling cars?

(13:32):
Yeah, for the audience out there, I'll put a visit the show notes, but without digressing
too much right now, I'll just quickly share my screen for those watching the podcast.
But this is this is Ling Ling cars.

(13:53):
So I kind of I liken this to every time somebody says, oh, we want the CFO to join a meeting
about the creative for the website.
I say no, the reason being and I don't mean to be rude, but just visit Ling Ling cars
and then I always get an email back or a phone call back saying, OK, yeah, we understand
that.

(14:13):
It's all good.
He just wants such and such and such.
And I'm like, all right, cool.
But I mean, this guy's taken what is essentially taking the mickey out of what was the, you
know, almost the late 90s, early 2000s ideas of what a website should look like.
And he's made a like exceptional kind of business out of it.

(14:39):
So yeah, interestingly, Nigel, when was it?
Maybe you said of around the 2010, we had a customer of ours come to us with a brief
like that.
They actually wanted that that busy, you know, fire sale, cheap, cheap, get a deal kind of
look and feel.
And this was a little bit before, you know, JB Hi-Fi was getting big.

(15:03):
And we found it fascinating because the client, you know, he he traveled the world and he'd
gone to Asia and in particular in Japan, where they have brochures like that.
That's sort of standard.
And you bring that sort of, I guess, that that cheapness, get a bargain, you know, here
in Australia.
And we did that for a while.
We had those sort of busy catalogs.

(15:26):
You know, their website was also sort of a little bit like that busy, busy sale.
Yeah.
And then unfortunately, I think that business, you know, they had maybe five or six retail
stores around Australia, but eventually ended up sort of closing before, you know, the juggernauts
like JB Hi-Fi came around.
Yeah.
I mean, it works for some brands.

(15:46):
It works, as you say, with JB Hi-Fi.
I mean, do you think JB Hi-Fi doesn't have multi-million dollar budgets to produce the
nicest, slickest looking creative in the world?
Of course they do, but they don't because it's called to their brand.
It's called to their ethos, the whole slashing prices.
And like, it's clear that you had a why when you started the business, you wanted to help

(16:07):
people.
Right.
And a lot of the times I talk to businesses out there and I say to them, well, when they
want a new website, I say, well, what is it that you want the customers to understand
about you?
What do you want them to, you know, what is your why?
Like why are you in business?
Are you in business just to make money?

(16:28):
Because a website, you've only got a few seconds to make an impression and being able to convey
who you are, why you're in business, all of those really important DNA of your brand comes
through in creative.
There's no actual other interface.
The website isn't in fact just a creative interface to you and so you as the business

(16:54):
owner and what you're offering is in the marketplace and the customers you're trying to talk to
in your audience.
At the same time, they're much better off, I feel, investing the money in the right places,
investing in paying an agency like yourselves to generate the look and feel to the brand,
a creative guideline and then taking that as a blueprint, I guess, is what I'm trying

(17:17):
to say rather than trying to make it up as they go and have and pay some overseas because
I'm finding it a lot.
There's a lot of small businesses in Sydney, especially that have somehow gotten caught
up in these overseas businesses that are doing like, and I look at their websites and their
SEO and they say, oh, no one's clicking on my website and I look at it and it's just

(17:39):
and I feel sorry for some of these businesses because they've paid tens of thousands of
dollars for what is essentially just rubbish.
And I don't have the heart to tell them that what they've got is if I was to look at it,
I'd probably throw it in the bin and it sounds harsh but it's the truth.

(17:59):
And if they had have just thought, well, I should get a professional agency like Ryzen
or something like that to do that creative for them, as I said, that would have that
blueprint then they can use that for everything if they wanted to create merchandise, if they
wanted to create a website, brochures, flyers, if they want to get the secretary, you've

(18:20):
got a nice letterhead that they can use.
These things I think are fundamental for businesses and yeah, anyway, I'll move on but I just
I'm quite passionate about it at the moment because I've been looking at a lot of people
have been reaching out as I've been doing these podcasts and I've been looking at their
websites for them and it's quite sad actually because I feel like they've been ripped off

(18:42):
and I'm trying to help as we go.
So yeah, totally.
I mean, if I can just add to that quickly, Nigel, you're spot on that the whole sort
of, you know, the why is such a big piece.
You know, we've worked with a lot of clients, a lot of retailers and we found that the people
that excel that do really well are the people that know their why and there's a purpose

(19:03):
to their business or their agency and if you don't have that why, you know, clients, customers
will see through that, you know, and businesses will fail or they'll turn through clients
or staff.
So yeah, to your point, I think, you know, understanding and having that why is critical
and we've seen that time and time again.

(19:25):
All the best retailers that we've worked with know their why, know their purpose and then
they build sort of off of that.
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, thanks, Ruggie.
Thanks for that.
I'll see if I can bring up some examples of some of the work you've done as well.
But I really wanted to sort of convey what I think is the absolute, the best possible

(19:47):
outcome for a business in terms of productivity when you're working really quickly online
and everybody says, oh, you know, online moves so quickly.
It does and if you're business, if you can't scale your business when you do start to grow
and all the businesses that I've been involved in have grown very, very quickly and we were

(20:11):
fortunate enough to be able to, we had a small team in both instances, but we were fortunate
enough to be able to have a agency like you guys, like Risen, that could almost feel like
an extension of our business.
So I just wanted to make a point that when we create these briefs, when we send them

(20:34):
to you and they come back, the first few times there might be a bit of back and forth, then
after a while it was almost like you just kind of understood what we want.
And maybe you could talk a bit about that.
It's sort of this initial pain that people feel like, oh, if I have to change agencies

(20:54):
or that I'm going to have to go through a whole relearning process, they're going to
have to understand what I want.
But I can speak for this how quickly you guys picked up on what we wanted.
Tell us a little bit more about that.
Like I know these things just don't happen.
How does it, how do you do it?
Like it's, I'm just really curious.
Yeah.

(21:15):
So, Nides, thank you.
Look, firstly, a lot of it has to do with our clients.
It's the brief.
It's what you guys initially come to us with.
And in my time, in this industry, Nides, there are very few people that know the technology,
the customers, the requirements like you do.

(21:36):
So first and foremost, Nides, you're one of the best in the industry.
And I've been in the industry for 20 plus years.
You are like literally maybe one or two people that I know that just know everything, finger
on the pulse.
And as a result of that, you come to us with a great brief.
And again, it goes back to that whole concept of empathy.

(21:58):
So empathizing with you guys as a business.
But then we act, I guess, on behalf of you to understand who your audience is, who your
target audience or target markets are.
And we try and empathize with that group or those audience groups.
So it really comes back to, yeah, trying to understand, look, what is the problem here
or what are the pain points and what are the opportunities to improve that or to create

(22:22):
a solution?
So yeah, once we understand that, and there's obviously a lot of back and forth, we'll go
back to you with questions, vice versa.
But typically, yeah, we will have some meetings or some huddles internally to really get on
the same page.
And so that typically takes a little bit of time.
But once we're on the same page, then we've got an awesome platform to build.

(22:43):
And I think that's been the case.
Answer scales.
Yeah.
And I think that's been the case every time, you know, on the projects that we worked on.
Masters, you guys did work for masters as well.
Yeah.
I know they, they, they, the master stuff originally was, was, was okay.
But then originally, and then, but then after a while, it looked really, really good.
And I was wondering, and I had, I did actually didn't know you guys were doing the masters

(23:05):
creative, to be honest.
I mean, if that's not had to be going today, it would have absolutely killed Bunnings.
I mean, like in terms of the online side of things, because it was so good.
You know, and I look at Bunnings now and I just, it just does my absolute head in that
website.
The sites can always be improved.
And, you know, my mother always say, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say

(23:25):
anything at all.
So I'm not going to say too much, but I just, cause I shop at Bunnings.
I love Bunnings.
It's not like I don't love the place.
I spent thousands there, but I have to drive to my store cause I just can't use their website.
It's just next to useless to me as a business.
And half the time I actually want to shop, but I don't because it's just, I don't want

(23:46):
to use the website and I don't have time to go there.
So they're, they're missing a share of wallet from me right now that they could be, they
could have had, I could be getting stuff delivered today and they're not because their site and
it's inherently complicated.
I totally get it.
Like hardware and their categories is probably some of the most complex when it comes to
product information management, category management, attribute management, all that kind of stuff,

(24:10):
taxonomies and all of that.
It's really complicated.
I totally get it.
Like, mate, you've got enough money guys.
Like it's not like you don't have enough money to have the biggest team in Australia to fix
that website.
Like, please, can you just do it?
And if you need my help, I'm happy to help.
Nice to go there.
Just, just give me some tips.
Just on that, Nige, the master's project, fascinating.

(24:33):
And you're right.
You know, there's, you know, I mean, Bunnings, you know, runs and owns the market and there's
so much more.
Well, it's a monopoly now, isn't it?
Pretty much.
It's not like it was before, but yeah.
But yeah, look, back in the day when we were working on masters, you know, and that was
a joint venture between, you know, two of the world's largest retailers Woolworths and

(24:54):
Rose from the, from the States.
And you know, it was, it was, I mean, we were lucky to be working, you know, on the website
at the time, but yeah, just to see, I guess the interesting dynamics, you know, how the
project was run, how it all came together, but you're right online that, that master's
website was doing really well.
So the online business was doing well and we all know what happened to the bricks and

(25:16):
mortars business and they closed it down.
But I know, you know, we did, I think on a single day we did, I think it was about $20
million in, in sales on one day.
No, I mean, the reason I ask you about that and how you can scale is because I often think
how AI, you know, is it, is it going to be at some point that a customer writes a brief

(25:37):
and you go over to some sort of AI prompt and you go, okay, this is the brief and it's
spits out, you know, what he thinks would be the idea for a color palette for a design.
I mean, I'm not a graphic designer, so I'm just picking buzzwords here, but you know,
like AI is going to obviously, as you say, it's going to transform the graphic design
industry.

(25:57):
Um, and a lot of my artwork I created for, for my business, I created using AI and yeah.
And um, well, what I did is I actually got drawings done and then I uploaded them and
then I got AI to tweak them and I use prompts to tweak it.
And then eventually got what I got, what I wanted.
But um, because I actually, for me, the brief was cause the podcast is sort of about AI

(26:22):
as well in retail.
That's why I did it because I wanted it to show what you can actually do with AI.
So the cover art you see for the podcast was created semi by a person who I have assignment
to copyright off.
Um, and then from there, I then uploaded it and created it through AI, made some changes
to it and then that person then tweaked it again.
And now that's what I've got.

(26:42):
So do you think it's going to be this symbiotic relationship with between creative people
you like yourself that have empathy for the customer?
Cause we know AI doesn't have empathy.
It's not capable.
It's not self-aware.
Do you think it's going to be this symbiotic relationship between, you know, amazing creative
um, people like you and your agency and then AI?

(27:04):
Yeah, look, I think ultimately it is, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and
it's fascinating because you know, this, this space is moving so quickly.
AI will speed up the pace, you know, so that, you know, bring sort of websites or the creative
um, and get it done a lot quick, you know, we're only scratching the surface.
Um, even some basic things like, um, a designer's pet hate is looking for stock imagery, you

(27:27):
know, you'd think they would find it in a few minutes, two or three hours later, they're
still scrolling through.
And that's agency hours.
All right.
I mean, yeah.
Exactly.
And then, you know, with, um, mid journey, for example, you can prompt what you want
and describe it.
And then it will just pump out those things for you.
And then, you know, you can either regenerate it, create variations, tweak the prompts,

(27:51):
um, and it creates that custom visual or that custom graphic for you.
And that's sort of AI 101.
What's going to happen a year or five years down the track.
Um, you know, I can't even imagine it.
And like you said, even though AI doesn't maybe have empathy right now, I think in the
new future, it will, you know, it will be doing a lot of this stuff for us.

(28:13):
Um, and so for the moment, I see AI is more of an extension of our, you know, our thinking
and our tools and it'll help us do things faster, quicker, better.
Um, it hasn't quite replaced us or agencies just yet, but you never know, you know, I
think it has the capability to do that.
Yeah, I think so too.
But I think it will never have the real empathy and the real, and I think my, my, my gut feeling

(28:39):
is that a lot of the, a lot of these industries that are going to have this symbiotic with
a relationship with AI are going to just readapt and they're going to learn.
I don't think it's going to result in people losing their jobs.
The only one I would say would possibly be, uh, creative writing.
I think it just, the pool is just need a lot smaller and you're going to have just really
talented people in a very small pool and they'll just demand more money, I think.

(29:03):
Um, and there was an article just recently, I'll see, I'll put it in the show and it's
about plagiarism, how, uh, there was a, there was a, um, a research firm that looked at
generative AI and looked at the large, um, language models and a lot of the prompts and
it looked for plagiarism within that.
And it found, I think it's very, very high percentage of my quota of it was plagiarized.

(29:24):
And I think it was the same with creative as well, where sort of some, some creatives
that had a thematic consistency in the creative design in the prompts actually took that from
artworks, um, from famous designers like Vincent Van Gogh and, and, you know, and all of these
and some of the more recent artists that are very popular, it looked to try and mimic those

(29:50):
different styles and I think there, there's some cases going on where creative types are
suing AI companies for plagiarism because it's, it's copying their style.
And which I think is completely fair because you know, the human brain is, it's the only
thing right now that is capable of taking something is essentially a thought and making

(30:10):
an, a vision out of it, uh, you know, something, a visual representation of what that is.
And that visual representation is true to the person who has created it.
So therefore it belongs to them.
Right.
And if something, someone comes along, whether it's an AI tool, it's supposed to my point
here or, or a human, if they copy that it is plagiarism.

(30:33):
Anyway, it'd be interesting.
And I'll see if I can dig up some details of that and put them in the show notes.
Thanks for you for that.
Um, maybe we could talk a little bit about the, the projects where I know we, we mentioned
a few already.
We worked on, worked on big brown box together, radio rentals, uh, the Bing Lee redesign.
It won an award that Magento site was probably the best site.

(30:53):
Um, and in fact, I had people from Magento emailing me saying, uh, who did the work on
this?
It's absolutely amazing from both a coding point of view and also to a creative point
of view.
So I broke up design creative UX and then the coding between two agencies for the audience.
So the brief for me was I wanted at the time it was difficult for people who do programming

(31:16):
to be creative and it still is like, I often laugh because it was, Oh, I've got a friend
who's he's an IT guy.
He does my website for me.
Um, but you know, I need someone to look at it because I want something better.
I'm like, yeah, I can see why, because he's used like Microsoft paint to, to create.

(31:38):
So, um, that, that site was getting back to that site.
And I think I'll bring up your site actually on our site.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
So we've got the Bing Lee example.
I think the big brown box one is, is only showing the old site, but, but you're right.
I think that project was really interesting.
And again, it comes down to, I think a lot of the work nights that you did with your
team and understanding, you know, uh, or changing the perception of, you know, who your audience

(32:04):
is.
And I'm just on the website here and I'm looking at your clients at the moment.
I mean, you've got some impressive clients here.
Hype DC, bend on.
I mean, these, these, these, um, this is really impressive, fantastic furniture, right?
Our entrance King, King living national geographic.
So I'm any, for the audience out there, if you're thinking of redesigning your site or

(32:27):
you, you want creative work done, I highly recommend you jump onto, and I'll leave it
in the show notes as well to, um, the rise in website and reach out to you and your team
RUGY to have a bit of a chat about what, what it is.
And it could even start with something like an EDM design that they've got a, the website's
okay, but their EDMs need to be fixed.

(32:47):
Cause that's their main, you know, the main channel that they, they communicate with their,
with their audience or their social side of things.
They want, they want to sort of revamp that a little bit.
Yeah.
I'm happy for anyone to contact me and look, you know, if, if we can't help you out as
an agency, at least I can give you some advice or point you in the right direction.
Um, you know, to your point, and I jump, yeah, we're here to, you know, to help people if

(33:08):
we can help them directly.
Great.
If not, yeah, you know, we've got, I guess, a lot of knowledge insights that we can share
and we've also got partners that we can, you know, guide them to any others that we should
mention.
I mean, in terms of what you're working on, I mean, there's this Dan Murphy's lounge lovers.
Yeah.
So mine gardens, to be honest, this website's a little bit old and needs, needs, well, it's

(33:28):
like the mechanics car that never starts.
You know what I mean?
He doesn't have time to fix it.
Yeah.
Um, but I mean, you know, even Morgan's house, if you want to click on the Bingley site, um,
I think we've got a sort of a before and after, um, that kind of showcases, you know, um,
hang on one sec.
Sorry.
I'll, I'll go back.
I'll look at the masters one.
I mean, masters was such a beautiful site.
Um, this stores is so good too.

(33:50):
Such a shame that that brand went, went, went down, but, um, I mean, look at that.
That looks just, it looks fantastic.
Part of our remit for this project was not just the UX and the design, we helped them
up together a style guide.
So that, you know, moving forward, they had something really solid from a digital and
creative perspective that they could then share to their, you know, partners, et cetera,

(34:13):
to help, you know, provide that content, whether it's blogs, imagery, et cetera.
Yeah.
I mean, fantastic.
I mean, if I look at the, if I look at the, um, the bunning side at the moment, it just
looks boring.
Like it looks like just really boring.
Right.
And it's not inspiring at all.
Like, well, we might, um, move on, uh, to the next topics.

(34:37):
Look, um, Hype DC, they, they were a foundation client of, of Risen.
So when we first started, they were our, our first client.
Um, I guess before we started Risen, they, um, were using both myself and Sally as, I
guess, freelance contract designers helping them with, you know, um, uh, I think print
ads on a old street magazine called 3D world.

(35:00):
And they were, they were new to the industry.
They were, um, I think only three stores.
Um, and yeah, just trying to get off the ground.
And again, another awesome client to work with, you know, they, they, they knew their
why, they had a passion for what they were doing.
Um, and they would, you know, allow us to, I guess, do, um, our thing.

(35:21):
You know, they weren't sort of, um, micromanaging us.
They would just know, you know, and create that space for us to flourish.
And that allowed us to do a lot of, you know, amazing work for them, not just on their,
their website, but, um, you know, a lot of their in-store branding.
We even did, uh, again, back in the day, some custom published magazine all around their

(35:41):
ethos of, of first, you know, their tagline was back then, uh, we searched the globe so
you can have it first.
And so we created this.
Oh, that's awesome.
Yeah.
And then we had a magazine, um, that was all about, uh, I guess more about their ethos
and less about their products.
Yeah.
And we used to, yeah, just do a lot of work.
So yeah, again, another awesome brand that, uh, we've had the pleasure of working with,

(36:04):
you know, from, from back in the day.
Yeah.
And I mean, it's super fast as well.
I mean, if you, for the audience here, I'm clicking on different sizes of shoes here
and it's just lightning fast.
Like it's, um, and it's what you want really.
You don't want to be sitting there waiting for pages to load.
So I think most sites now have pretty much caught up, but I like the fact that it's four

(36:24):
across the fact that you can see the sizes that are available really, really quickly.
Um, that's another really nice feature.
I bought these actually these from, from these.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've got these from, from the guys.
Um, but so you can see that for the orders is she, so I just clicked into, uh, a pair
of Adidas gazelles and bang was instant shows me all of the different payment methods, sizes,

(36:50):
different variations or variants of the different colors, um, that are available.
Um, scrolls really nice.
That's really nice and smooth.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a great design.
And then this is again, is you've got so many brands.
It could look so messy yet it's been able to keep its scale with the product range and

(37:11):
not look over, over the top.
Um, or to the volume isn't turned up too much in one particular area that sort of takes
your way to, you know, a different area or it sort of creates a distraction where you
might walk or click away from the site and, and bounce.
So I'm assuming these guys there, their bounce rates are really quite, quite low.

(37:35):
I mean, they've got all the Instagram posts here as well, which is really, really nice.
Yeah.
It's a really nice site.
I mean, again, that's a testament to a, a really, really good design, good design work
and having good content really, isn't it?
I mean, you can have a great design, but if your content is rubbish, then it's going to
look terrible.
So, and how I find it's very hard to scale content nicely, even formatting your paragraphs

(37:59):
correctly, um, using the right font size, styles, uh, colors, making sure on mobile
that it's really easy to, to read.
And things are immediately apparent when you're looking at a motor mobile, still find a lot
of sites not mobile first and digital natives, as they say, you know, they don't really have
a desktop.

(38:19):
They don't have a laptop.
They've just got their phones or an iPad.
So if you're not, if your site is not mobile first, uh, you're doing a huge disservice
to yourself and, um, also to, to your customers because they're the ones who are getting quite
frustrated with viewing something that is, is not right for that particular viewport.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(38:40):
Spot on.
And I think it goes back to just spending the time to, you know, look at each, uh, breakpoint
or, you know, the, the responsiveness and making sure, you know, that every size, it
makes sense and it works.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.
Now that's a really good segue into part two of the show, which is really looking at the,
the, um, customer centricity, let's just call it.

(39:00):
Um, so look here, the first point, um, around data.
So it's literally, um, the more data we have, the better the end results.
So definitely, you know, uh, analytics, so, you know, GA data.
Um, but also we've found that a lot of our customers will have data in their, you know,
uh, email or CRM, um, and also in store.

(39:21):
Um, so we try and pull that together to better understand, you know, who, I guess their current
customers are, uh, and potentially who they might want to target in addition to that.
So that forms the basis of, uh, helping to create, yeah, target audiences, um, and, or
to stem off that, um, helping to create personas.
Um, and, and the benefit of creating, uh, personas is that it helps us better empathize

(39:46):
with a group, you know, we don't want to just say, oh, we're targeting, you know, um, women
24 to 34, I'm sorry, 24 to 35.
Um, we'd rather say, look, we are going to target, um, you know, a Jillian that lives
in, you know, so-and-so suburb, you know, has a family.

(40:08):
Um, we sort of go beyond just demographics.
We look at their psychographics and we start to try and paint a picture of the different
audience groups, just so that it helps us better empathize with, you know, that particular
audience or that group.
Um, so typically from the data, yeah, we'll start to split out and create target audiences
and personas.
Um, and then as part of our, I guess, customer centric methodology, we will then start to

(40:32):
try and better empathize with that audience group and we'll run some exercises like, uh,
empathy mapping, uh, user journey mapping.
So the empathy mapping part is to, to understand, you know, who that person is first and foremost
as a person before they're shopping for a product or before they're shopping for a service,
you know, what's going on in their lives?

(40:53):
What are their pains, their gains?
What are they hearing?
What are they seeing?
You know, are they, I don't know, watching a particular show, you know, what are they
gossiping about with friends about all that sort of thing?
Um, it just helps.
Yeah, I can, I can talk a bit to that, Ruju, just sorry to interject there, but one thing,
um, that I know worked really well is when we sat down and we did this and we overlaid

(41:13):
what you, what you said in relationship distractions and so on with the, um, the time on site.
So when people were visiting, so what time of the day were people visiting, but also
how long did they stay during that time?
And we found from this journey mapping that we did with you guys, um, and, and by looking
at the customer profile and then understanding, okay, when is she getting distracted?

(41:37):
We actually found, and it makes perfect sense, but you don't, it's, that's saying you don't
know what you don't know until you actually look at it and do that, um, very basic analysis
is to say, okay, well, you know, from five o'clock till seven o'clock, we're finding
that, you know, um, that the, the time on site is dropping, but the conversions are
still quite high, but the, the time on sites dropping, why is that?

(42:01):
Oh, okay.
Well, because it's dinner time and everyone's getting dinner ready and, or they're cleaning
up after dinner if they've had it earlier.
So yeah, I mean, it's, it's the simple things and you realize, okay, well, maybe we should
flight our budgeting slightly different for our Google ads and you know, at the time we,
if you're spending $50,000 a day on Google ads, that makes a difference.

(42:22):
You know, just that little tweak to potentially when you might want to save your money till
the end of the night, when they're back on online on their iPads, doing that tablet shopping,
you might want to up weight the budget at that point, but you don't know that until
you actually overlay what you said.
Um, when would she be distracted?
For example, is it in the morning when she's getting kids ready for school?

(42:43):
Is it during the drop off time?
Is she on a mobile?
Is she now completing the checkout on a mobile?
Um, if the target audience is female, uh, sort of mom, female living in the suburbs,
everything, everything has causation.
You know what I'm, you know what I'm saying?
And I highly recommend that, that if you, if you see that out there in, in retail land,

(43:05):
um, and for the guys listening, that you, um, that you do this work and you reach out
to region and, and have a look at how you can potentially understand your customers
a little bit better to then work out because the flow and effect isn't just to, to a creative
brief, it's actually to marketing and how you spend your money to get the customers
to the site and when you should best fight that.

(43:25):
Hmm.
Yep.
And, and, uh, you're right there, Nig, you know, when you go through the journey mapping
or the customer journey mapping exercise, um, what you essentially get is a, is a customer
blueprint.
It's a blueprint of, you know, how your customers shop, how they find you or competitors.
Um, and it's, I guess, visual as well.

(43:46):
And you can use that, um, at any level of the business.
It's not just for your website.
It's not just for digital.
It's you know, in store, it's email, it's, it's basically everything.
And I think that's the beauty of sort of, um, spending the time and the effort to do
some of this UX work, some of the research and the workshops, it gives you or the business
a lot more clarity and it gives you a blueprint to, to build off.

(44:08):
Um, so the other things we do after, you know, empathy mapping, uh, journey mapping is again,
where possible.
We like to talk to customers, whether that's one-on-one, you know, interviews.
Um, so I guess that's more qualitative, um, or it's more quantitative, you know, surveys.
Um, ideally we do both and we do it sort of before this, the, the design and after the

(44:30):
design to, to test things.
Um, but again, that just gives you the feedback and again, it's all about the customer.
So if you don't talk to the customer, or if you don't know what they want or don't want,
uh, like or dislike, you know, you can't design the ideal journey or experience for them.
I guess after that is when we then start to roll out the actual solution, you know, whether
that's a site map, uh, you know, wire frames, uh, and then going to design.

(44:55):
Um, but one of the tips I've got for, you know, maybe any of the retailers out there
is, um, you know, spend a little bit of time, uh, you know, in this sort of UX research
sort of area, but also around the site map.
So what we found that works really well for our clients is that, um, looking at a site
map, both from an SEO perspective, um, but also from a customer perspective.

(45:17):
And if you can sort of understand, uh, I guess the pros and cons of both, um, you will ideally
have a site that's optimized for customers, but also optimized for Google slash SEO.
And that way you'll get more traffic and ideally, you know, more traffic, meaning more conversions,
more sales, et cetera.
Oh, totally, totally agree.

(45:40):
Thanks for you.
That's yeah.
I mean, it's, um, I mean, I'm on your website at the moment.
I can see, I remember doing all the post-it notes, you know, and, and sticking them all
up and it kind of, it's sort of, it's fun to do it because you're, you're working as
a team.
So you bring your team in and you sit down and you have some coffees and whatever, and
you start to brainstorm and it also, it just, it's, it's almost like a cleanse, you know,

(46:02):
you sort of, cause you, you, your brain gets so full of what mine does anyway.
And I'm, I'm guilty of this.
My brain gets so full of ideas and you know, some of them, you just don't have the ability
to execute on all of them, but unless you put them down on paper, unless you, you, you,
uh, visualize those ideas, they stay in your head and you, and you, and it becomes this

(46:25):
big sort of big mess and in your head of all these things you want to do and you don't
know how to prioritize.
And this actually helps you prioritize.
Like you said, you start working on the solution.
Once you've got that idea of what, you know, what the site's going to look like, what site
map should look like.
And to your point about site map, I mean, on my site, uh, the digital discovery group,
uh, Docker website, I, you know, I, I'm using a standard platform, but I've changed my site

(46:50):
map three times because I started with all of these ideas and then I'm like, Oh, you
know, it's too complicated.
And then I just went, Oh no, you know, I created another site map and new pages and they started
to rank straight away.
I match all the SEO was good, good content, good images and so on.
And then I felt, Oh, you know what?
People are just ringing me because they want to switch from what they currently do.
So I just put up a thing called make the switch.

(47:12):
So now when you, so I'm finding more people are coming to me when they've got, you know,
domain names all over the place.
And then they've got a website here and a website there and it's doing pretty good business.
They're not quite sure how to use their platform, but they're just packing orders at the moment.
And so I can come in and say, okay, and I can bring it all together for them.
And I mean, I'm not a graphic designer, so I would reach out to someone like rise in

(47:33):
and say, Hey guys, uh, help put that brief together.
Let's get something over to the customer, bring the customer in, you know, so it's kind
of like this, this idea of it's, it's not, um, you know, the customer is busy focusing
on what they're good at, which is their business.
You guys can then focus on what you're good at by then having all this information there.

(47:55):
You can rely on you take photos of it all.
You've got it as a reference point.
You document it really, really well.
I mean, we got a fantastic document from you guys after we did this research.
I remember, but in the end, it's all about the growth.
If you're, do you think in five years, Rujy retail is going to look like it does now with
AI and everything?

(48:16):
No, it is a hundred percent going to be very, very different.
And we know with augmented reality, all of these technology firms are trying to get more
and more time, uh, time per day of user attention.
And that's all their KPI to do.
So eventually, um, you know, once we've left the office, we're going to be on our devices.

(48:41):
We're going to be talking to friends, you know, we're not going to be shopping, you
know, so, so shopping has to come to us as, as, as customers, you know, um, there is,
there will always be, uh, there are a segment of, of, um, of shoppers out there that love
the in-store experience and everything like that.
But it just changes what in-store is meant to be for, for the, for the customer.

(49:03):
It becomes a discovery.
Really it becomes, I go into a store to discover the tactile feel, touch and feel the physical
discovery where the digital discovery happens online.
And that's why I called the business digital discovery group, because that's really what
it's about.
It's about digitally, how you discover brands and businesses and ideas and concepts, um,

(49:29):
everything, you know?
Um, so, all right, cool.
Move on to SCI.
Obviously we spoke about that, the wireframes design and then the building and integration
now you, you guys do the building and integration as well, but obviously for bigger projects,
you would sort of outsource that to another agency and so on.
But yes, best of breed situation.
Exactly.
Yeah.
What we found, like you mentioned earlier in the podcast, Nig, is that, um, it's often

(49:52):
good to separate the creative UX UI with the build.
Um, and ideally have specialists in both areas, because I think, you know, to your point,
it's super rare to find, uh, one agency or one, you know, team that does awesome UX UI
and build because they're quite different.
Um, and sometimes, you know, it might be, you're designing a site based around a feature

(50:16):
or a function that's led sort of technically, whereas ideally you want to design something
that's led by the customer and their needs.
And so there's often a bit of a clash, uh, internally, uh, you know, if you're trying
to do both in the one agency and that's why typically, um, our projects, especially the
bigger ones, we will have partners, whether it's people like, you know, Lloyd at Fontys

(50:37):
or a bunch of other awesome agencies that specialize more in the technical side, once
the UX and the UI has been designed and, uh, and sort of strategized.
A hundred percent.
And you don't, I, this is one of the things that you don't push boundaries when people
are comfortable.
Like if people are comfortable and it will just present, you know, what they know technically

(50:59):
or from a functional specification point of view, the platform can achieve, then no boundaries
get pushed.
So the only way you can get pushed boundaries is by creatively coming up with ideas that
technically probably can't happen, but you find compromises and you land at a point where
you've created something new.
And a lot of people don't realize that this is the symbiotic relationship between technology

(51:20):
functional specifications and the design work.
You know, it's like, yes, there is that relationship because it's form and function.
And that's one of the first things you understand is, uh, I mean, a perfect example is Elon
Musk with his Cybertruck, right?
I've been a huge fan of the Cybertruck.
I'm like, ah, it's bloody ugly.
It looks horrible.
Yeah, it's kind of ugly, but it's, it's kind of like cool ugly.

(51:42):
It's kind of like, but as Elon Musk says, it's all like form versus function.
They, um, uh, sorry, function versus form, right?
Oh no, other way around.
Yeah.
I'm confusing myself.
You know, it's, it got an exoskeleton.
It's not a chassis on rail.
It's, it's, um, it's designed with stainless three, one stainless steel.

(52:02):
So it's bulletproof.
I mean, it's all of these things that technically if you had have asked a senior executive at
Ford, he was, are you fricking mad?
Like, we're not creating that.
Look at that.
It's a shocker.
That graphic designer, uh, would have been thrown out of the room or the design team
would have been kicked in and never to come back.
But yet, Elon's like, no guys, show me something different.

(52:23):
Do you want a truck that looks like a truck?
And now everybody it's now it's, it's, it's polarizing, but that's how you actually create
something new.
Now he's created something new.
And John in the previous, um, podcast spoke about reinventing retail reinvention.
Uh, and he, he spoke a lot about reinventing yourself as well as your business.

(52:48):
And Elon Musk is very good at that.
Now I'm not a big Elon Musk fan boy, but I appreciate the things that the ideas that
he, that he brings to people.
And you know, he says that one of the, one of the, uh, his sayings that I really love
is you focus on the, uh, the, the problem and solving the problem and then the tools
become apparent.

(53:09):
So you focus on, and I think about, think back about our time together, we were focusing
so much on the problem.
We didn't have to worry about whether or not things could be done.
It was up to you guys and the web developers to, to try and make, find the tools that would
make what we wanted work.
And we created something new.
I mean, we had pop-ups and we had countdown clocks and this was all before anybody was

(53:33):
using it, especially for the big brown box.
We created all of that.
Yeah.
Um, if you remember, um, uh, you know, we worked on big brown box with ASA to do, you
know, customize PCs, which back then was revolutionary.
You know, it was the first of its kind.
And to your point, if we started with the technology, you know, they would have said,
no, too hard.

(53:53):
Don't, don't even go there.
But we went the other way.
We said, what would customers want?
Oh, right.
An awesome experience being able to, you know, build their own PC.
How do we create that?
And then we did that and then took that, I guess, blueprint to the developers to go,
we've got a challenge for you, mate, try and make this work.
And it happened.
It happened.

(54:14):
It absolutely happened.
And it was very successful.
I mean, we had $9,000.
I mean, back then, I mean, it wasn't that last, I say back then, but it wasn't really
that long ago.
Um, but, but like we had sliders and it was almost like the Dell experience today.
Like there was Dell didn't even have that.
They had the basic configurator with these really ugly looking, uh, it was all written

(54:34):
in ASP.net sort of stuff was all ugly.
And you know, we were using this open source platform, Magento, it would slide across and
you could pick your Ram, you could pick your hard drive, your software.
It would go to Acer.
They'd put it all together and send it out to the customer.
And it was, and then they put, they put, um, a whole marketing campaign behind it.
It was fantastic.
And no one had ever.
And so I'm so glad you reminded me of that because I remember working on that project

(54:56):
and it actually was really, really successful.
You know, everybody's got a thousand reasons why you shouldn't do things, but I always
say that think of what you want to do, then try and execute on the idea and the problem
that you're trying to solve.
Has anybody else done it before?
Have they done a really good job at it?
How could it be done better?
All right, well now we're, we could talk all day.

(55:18):
I'm absolutely loving, um, chatting to you, mate.
I mean, this is, this is so good.
Um, and I'd love to have you back on the show.
I think at some point in the, in the future as well.
And, um, I'd love to.
Yeah.
Um, thanks, mate.
And I think I'll see what sort of questions come in.
Most people send me emails actually.
Um, and, uh, and I get on chat, they'll, they'll ask questions and so on, but for the audience

(55:41):
out there, if you have any questions for Rooji, I'm happy to, for you, I'll put some show
notes on the, um, your details on the show notes.
You can, they can reach out to you via your website.
Look, mate, I think we might leave the show there.
Now before I go every, uh, every one of my podcast guests gets some of my amazing merchandise.

(56:02):
Awesome.
Now, now you have a choice.
Uh, we, but the only problem is I'm kind of out of stock with some of it.
I'll show you these, these.
So I have these new shirts that came in, um, just recently, but I'm going to get some more.
So these are the digital discovery.
Oh, nice.
Nice.
I love it.

(56:22):
Yeah.
So it's absolutely gigantic and the, the us sizes.
So I'll get your size and, um, we have some, some, uh, new mouse mats.
I changed the supplier because I sold out on the other ones.
Oh, wow.
Um, so I, and I highly recommend actually Vista print is actually really good for those
out there in business that are looking there.
They're, they're not the cheapest.

(56:44):
I would say you can, you can wait till things go on sale, which is normally what I do.
Um, but the quality is really good.
So we've got these new mouse mats now.
So these are, so I'll send you some of those out.
Yep.
You can give some of those to your team and the mugs as well.
So I've got a new supplier for the mugs.
Um, again, it's Vista print.
I'm looking to try and get some new colors.

(57:04):
And I wanted to try and get orange for you.
Cause I know you love orange and I'll never forget when you sent me a pair of, um, orange,
uh, Nike's air maxes.
I've still got them.
Oh, excellent.
And, uh, when, when Holland played in the world cup, I'll follow Holland there, um,
in the soccer world cup.
Obviously it's everything's orange.

(57:24):
So I'm, yeah.
So I was wearing them everywhere and my kids said to me, dad, you're not a teenager anymore.
And I said, shut up as you do.
So I've got these new mugs now.
So I'll, I'll just, um, I'll show you these while you're doing that.
Maybe if I could just, um, you know, sort of, um, speak to your, to, to, to, to your

(57:46):
audience, the people listening, look, just, just want to say, you know, Nigel, you are
one of the gurus.
Oh, that looks awesome.
One of the real gurus in this industry.
And you know, you've helped multiple businesses go from, you know, as an example, I think
Bing Lee, when we started working with you, we're doing like one or two million to like
a hundred plus million.
Like, you know, that's right.

(58:06):
And that's because of you, it's not just like us or other agencies, you were the glue to
all of that.
And so I guess I just want to let people know that, look, you've done such an amazing, I
guess, uh, volume of work in our industry and you've taken so many brands from being
small to massive that, you know, that I guess, yeah, you're just a guru and a nice guy.

(58:28):
And so they should definitely thank you so much for you.
Um, yeah, you've done so much.
Oh, mate, that now look, I really, really appreciate that.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not always out there and always at events and I just don't get time.
I've got four kids, you know, I like to spend time with them.
So every spare minute I get, I'd prefer to stay home and, or we go out.
I'd rather be out with the family, but, um, I'm going to try this year and get out a little

(58:50):
bit more, try and get out and be with the industry a little bit more, go to, go to a
few more events and so on.
This is why I'm doing the podcast right now, actually, because I, it's just a voice for
people who I know who are fantastic, like yourselves, um, Ruji and your team, you know,
without you guys, we couldn't have done what we did.
And also to the people I know that are just genuinely good guys and they just, they've

(59:11):
got really good brains essentially.
And I just want to talk.
You're welcome to come back on any time the invitation is always open for you, mate.
So thank you very much.
Awesome.
I appreciate it.
Thanks so much.
Much love to you.
Thanks, mate.
Thank you very much, mate.
Thanks man.

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S1:E10 - Creative Transformation with Ryuji Uematsu from Rysen

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S1:E10 - Creative Transformation with Ryuji Uematsu from Rysen