August 4, 2025 • 36 mins
Imagine walking through the gilded corridors of a legendary hotel—where service feels like an art form, and every guest isn’t just remembered, but known.
Amanda Hyndman has helped shape one of the world’s most admired hotel brands. Beginning her journey with Mandarin Oriental nearly 20 years ago as a general manager, she has built meaningful, memorable guest experiences. Her 2023 appointment as Chief People & Culture Officer underscored Mandarin Oriental’s belief that its people are key stakeholders in the luxury experience. And now, as Chief Operating Officer, she oversees the entire guest journey across continents, blending intuition with precision, and heritage with innovation.
In this episode, Amanda reveals the three essential components of true luxury. Tune it to discover how to embed more “TLC” into every customer experience:
- Time – the freedom to simply be
- Locale (shelter) – a setting where you feel safe, seen, and at ease
- Care – receiving what your heart desires before you even ask
Video and audio production: Jaison Jose of Cocoon Media
The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.
Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations
Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu
Marketing: Anne Dawson
Editing: Isabella Laikin and James Leon
Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:06):
Imagine walking through the gilded corridors of
a legendary hotel where historywhispers from the walls and
every guest is not justremembered but known.
Now imagine being the personresponsible for orchestrating
that magic.
Not just in one city, but acrossa global brand synonymous with
elegance, grace, and timelesshospitality.
(00:30):
Today's guest is someone who hasnot only led iconic properties
like the Mandarin OrientalBangkok and Hong Kong, hotels
that define the very meaning ofluxury, but has also shaped the
future of hospitality from theinside out.
Amanda Hindman began her journeywith Mandarin Oriental as a
journal manager, creatingunforgettable guest experiences.
(00:53):
But her story didn't stop atoperations.
She was appointed Chief Peopleand Culture Officer, a move that
signaled just how seriously thebrand takes its own people as
stakeholders in the luxuryexperience.
And now, as chief operatingofficer, she oversees the entire
guest journey across continents,blending intuition with
(01:14):
precision and heritage withinnovation.
This is a conversation aboutluxury, but not just the marble
lobbies and Michelin-starredmenus.
It's about emotionalintelligence and leadership,
about creating culture with thesame care as cocktails, and
about the unseen human momentsthat turn a stay into a story.
(01:36):
Amanda Heintman doesn't just runhotels, she curates legacies.
And today she joins us to talkabout the future of luxury one
unforgettable moment at a time.
Amanda, welcome to the schooland our podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
Thank you very much.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
So let's first start with what is luxury.
It used to mean exclusivity,used to mean opulence, and even
inaccessibility.
How do you define luxury today?
And has that definition evolvedwith your leadership journey?
SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
I think luxury is a little bit like beauty.
It's in the eye of the beholder.
And I think there's differenttimes and different occasions
when it means something very,very different to us.
You know, I've always used theanalogy that anybody can build a
beautiful hotel.
But the thing that really makesthe difference is the people and
the passion and their engagementand how special they make us
(02:33):
feel.
And I've been in places that areperhaps a little bit older where
I've had incredible experiences.
And likewise, there's alsoproperties with gold-plated bath
taps, but they have no soul.
I think, you know, theopportunity and the skill in our
profession is to recognize theindividual and the the reason
why they're traveling, andthrough emotional intelligence,
(02:55):
to be able to recognize whatthey need in that moment to make
it special and to really trulyget over and above, to meet and
exceed their expectations and tocreate memories that are going
to stay with them forever.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
I'm going to come back to this, but this is very
interesting where you talk aboutuh it's the people in the hotel
that are going to make thedifference.
And you're absolutely right,anyone can build a beautiful
hotel, but it's the people thatare going to make the
difference.
So on that theme, um, we hear alot about personalization and
experience over products.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
So, in your view, what are the intangible elements
that truly define modern luxuryfor me it's something around
time, um, because time issomething that constantly passes
without spending, um, withoutstating the obvious, but also is
something that we can't buy, andit's about creating those
(03:55):
moments.
Um, and I think something veryfundamental, they say human
beings need shelter.
I think we need to feel safe andsecure in our environment.
Now that's not being intimidatedby some terribly posh place, or
in the old days by the doormanlooking down his nose to see how
you were dressed.
It's about colleagues having theemotional intelligence to
(04:16):
recognize what your needs areand to be able to then craft the
experience and elevate theexperience to make that
meaningful to you at that time.
And that's totally different ifyou're in a family reunion, if
you're on a romantic moment or abusiness meeting.
But it's it's recognizing it'sbeing able to pick up the cues
and then translate them into notonly uh a genuine experience,
(04:39):
but to make that more bespoken,more individual.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Now, this is very interesting, but in um in the
world of hospitality education,there are very few places that
teach you that that aspect ofhospitality where you're picking
up on the needs of the guests.
So I guess this must be a magicthat you do at the Mandarin.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
I wouldn't have said it's necessarily magic, but I
think it's something that we'revery attuned to.
And our service culture iscalled the legendary quality
experience, and that wasactually written around NLP,
neurolinguistic programming.
And you know, I remember when Ifirst moved to London, I had my
career in Scotland, and I wentto London, it was like a
five-star boys club, and theysaid, Oh, you know, you can't
(05:24):
come in, you're female andyou're in a four-star hotel.
And it sounds really, reallycrazy, but I think also, as I
mentioned earlier, in the pastpeople were judged by
appearances.
Um, and you know, I've had someinstance in my career where you
have a bit of a come to Jesusmoment and you realize there's
something more fundamental thanthat.
And you know, from the old daysin Bangkok when we used to stand
(05:45):
in the lobby like Kurt Vac Vitalto meet the guests, you can't
judge people by appearances.
You know, that the person in aripped tracksuit with a
skateboard under their arm andwearing slippers could have come
on a private jet.
And frankly, the guy in thethree-piece suit carrying a
briefcase might be stealinghandbags.
And I think the pandemic reallytaught us this whole thing about
(06:07):
appearances.
And, you know, through somelife-changing moments in in my
career, I we started using theword kindness, that we wanted to
be known for kindness.
And people looked at me like Iwas a bit mad, like, no, no, no,
we're five-star luxury, what areyou talking about kindness?
But I think, you know, kindnessis recognizing that every guest
has a choice.
They don't have to stay with us,they can stay wherever they
(06:29):
want.
And by the way, the same goesfor our colleagues.
Our colleagues have a choice.
You know, to go off the subject,we used to talk about the war on
talent.
It's over, it's finished.
Talent won, right?
So I think this kindness andbeing able to put yourself in
someone else's shoes, andparticularly during COVID,
because you couldn't see theirmouth, right, to see their eyes
(06:49):
and to take those cues and beable to craft the moment is
something that I would like tothink our colleagues are
becoming better at, but it'ssomething that we can always
deliver at a more consistent umstandard of service.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
You know, to make judgments about people by
looking at them, by the shoesthey're wearing, the dress, the
clothes, is human nature.
So what does it take for you toget the colleagues to say, okay,
we don't we are not going to dothat at the Mandarin?
It must take a lot of effort.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Yes, of course.
But I think it's something that,you know, generally our
colleagues in learning anddevelopment and people and
culture, we're talking aboutculture, right, right?
I mean, I go off the subjectagain.
I used to joke that HR stood forhuman remains.
And when I was offered the job,I said, I don't want to be the
chief HR officer.
And James Riley said to me, Yousaid you wanted this job.
I said, I don't want to do HR, Iwant to be the chief people
(07:40):
officer.
Because, you know, people are atthe heart of everything we do,
and culture is about theenvironment that we create.
And if we can look intosomebody's eyes, I mean, it's an
old story, but you know, theguest is screaming and shouting
at the front desk.
And my colleagues come to me andsay, This guest is so rude and
so angry and so upset.
I'm like, okay, so let's thinkabout the guest.
(08:01):
Maybe he's just been on a longhaul flight, maybe he's
frightened of flying, maybe he'sgot a terminal illness, maybe
his wife's having an affair,maybe his children are sick.
It's our job to put him in abetter place and not to judge
his clothing.
And you know, we have people whoare extraordinarily wealthy and
successful and stay in ourhotels, but we have people that
(08:22):
save up for a whole year to comefor afternoon tea.
We have people who may have veryserious illnesses, who come to
have a beautiful moment with amember of their family.
And I find that incrediblyhumbling.
I wasn't born in a palace, Ididn't have butlers.
You know, you saved up for aspecial occasion, and we have to
recognize that next to themulti-tulti billionaires in the
(08:43):
private jets, we've got peoplethat are using their own hard
earned money to have a specialexperience.
And I think they really deserveour respect and appreciation for
that.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Now it's it's telling that you evolved from
operations into, like you said,uh with James Riley, you said
you want to be the people andculture officer.
And then after that, you're backto being in you're back in
operations essentially.
Now you're the CEO.
So clearly, through your throughour conversation and through
your own journey, it's veryclear that Mandarin places a lot
(09:20):
of emphasis on the team, thecolleagues that you have, as
much as the guests that arecoming in.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
I have a view that, you know, we we talk about our
colleagues being our mostimportant asset.
Without our colleagues, we arenothing.
They got us here and they willtake us into the future.
Now, you know, we could talk allday about recruitment, but we
have to choose the right peopleto join Mandarin Oriental who
have the right spirit, who havekindness and humility and want
(09:48):
to be part of our family.
I mean, colleagues say to me,Amanda, we've got so many
vacancies.
I'm like, yeah, I know.
And there's hundreds of peoplethat want to work for us.
And you know, we don't want thembecause we have to choose the
right people.
And when we have chosen theright people, you know, we need
to grow and develop them in linewith the needs of the business.
A lot of people come to me andsay, Hey Amanda, I want more
money.
(10:08):
I'm like, sure, why do you wantmore money?
And they say, because I workedhere for three years.
And you have to say, Look, I'msorry, we don't pay based on
length of service, but I can payyou more money if you can do a
bigger job.
So if you're a commi chef andyou can become a chef de party,
if you're a waiter, you canbecome a supervisor.
Because if you can pay somebodymore money, that changes their
(10:28):
life and it changes theirfamily's life.
So if we can grow our owncolleagues internally, that's
something very, very powerful.
And beyond that, we have tocreate a culture of recognition
and appreciation.
I mean, we all like to bethanked.
My boss doesn't thank me veryoften, but when he does, you
know, you know, it feels great.
An army marches on its stomach.
(10:50):
We need decent food in thecolleague restaurant, we want
our colleagues to look amazing,we need proper changing rooms.
All of those things go tocreating a meaningful colleague
experience.
And if we've done all of thosethings, you never guess what, we
might deliver efficient service,the guests might be delighted,
um, the colleagues might behappy, the guests might come
(11:11):
back and we might make money.
But we're never gonna makemoney, and the guests are never
gonna come back, and we're nevergonna deliver great service
unless that whole colleagueexperience is taken very
seriously and is at the startingpoint and the heart of
everything we do.
So I was always an operator, butI figured out a long time ago
(11:31):
this thing about the colleagues,and yeah, I was never very good
at finance and marketing.
I never worked in rooms, I neverworked in engineering, I never
worked in kitchen.
But all I knew was aboutsupervising colleagues and then
managing colleagues and thenleading colleagues.
So it doesn't matter if you dorooms or F and B or marketing,
it's about learning leadership.
So people want to follow you.
(11:53):
And I truly believe that's thegame changer.
So I'm back where I always wasin operations.
People and culture was great,but operations and people and
culture are transformation.
So that's why I'm here.
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
So is this um uh the the culture that you have at
Mandarin?
Um, do you have to work at it?
Do you sort of upfront decidethis is what the culture we
should have, and then you makeefforts to make sure that you
get there?
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
I think Mandarin Oriental has always had a
culture, but at the same time itevolves, you know, the world
changed, and we've got to changeas well.
And for me, the most importantthing is to create a safe and
respectful and inclusiveculture.
So I was bullied at school.
Now I don't mean violently, butgirls are narcity, right?
(12:38):
Psychological cruelty.
And I cannot bear bullying.
It just absolutely bores me.
And you know, I joke a littlebit, I'll be in trouble again
with Marcus, that you know, theguys in the white coats, the
chefs, used to scream and shoutand threaten.
You know what?
The chefs are actually muchbetter than they used to be.
But there is still sometimesunfortunate behavior whereby
people think it's okay to screamand shout.
(12:59):
It is not okay to scream andshout.
So we've recently redefined ourvalues because we're on this
transformation journey.
And at the heart of it, it'sabout being exceptional, not
just for our guests, but alsofor our colleagues, but creating
opportunities for growth, as Ijust mentioned, and respect and
(13:20):
trust and teamwork.
And we believe that thattranslates at all levels of the
organization, whether you're theCEO or you know, whether you're
an operational colleague.
And if we can live and act bythose values, we will build a
culture that nurtures our talentand where people want to stay
and they feel safe and secure.
SPEAKER_00 (13:39):
So um I mean it's the question I was gonna ask is
that um investment in people,and you said it may translate
into the kind of guestexperience that you're fair
with.
And it obviously translates intomaking money for the company.
Um But the question is um howmuch do you think this internal
(14:02):
culture is part of your externalidentity?
SPEAKER_01 (14:06):
I think it's it's absolutely at the heart of
everything we do because it'sthe way we we treat our each
other, it's the way we treat ourguests, it's the way we treat
the community, our owners, ourstakeholders.
It's our DNA, it's who we are.
It's absolutely fundamental.
There's beautiful hotelcompanies with gorgeous hotels
that don't have the culture.
(14:27):
And I think there's alsotwo-star and three-star and
four-star operators that havegood culture and have a good
DNA, but it it's it's it's gotto be the foundation because at
the end of the day, it'sinforming your behavior and the
decisions that you take and theway you're perceived internally
and externally.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
It's incredible the amount of effort you're placing
on the culture and team and thecolleagues.
DNA.
And what about, let's say,extracting out uh into the
entire, let's say, the luxurybrands, or even not just luxury
brands, but any company, I'massuming you think it's is
should be the same in all otherplaces as well.
SPEAKER_01 (15:08):
I think when you look at the successful
organizations, they they have aculture that they've determined.
Now, I think we all know theremight be an external culture and
an internal culture.
And it's interesting, uh a veryfamous um luxury retailer said
that every luxury brand needs aheritage.
And you know, we've taken ourheritage very seriously and
(15:28):
we've kind of put it at theheart of the culture to talk
about our dual Asian roots.
And I certainly believe thatAsian hospitality is very
elegant and very sophisticated.
So, from our original foundinghotels in Bangkok and Hong Kong,
you know, this is something thatwe're weaving into our story and
it's become part of our DNA.
And we've said we want to bemasters of craft, so really
(15:51):
recognizing the craftsmanshipthat goes into cocktails or
culinary or bed making, but alsoshapers of culture, which is
about the way we act, but alsothe impact that we have on our
communities and where weoperate, you know, outside the
four walls.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Okay, so um I hear all about the culture.
I'm also curious to know whatelse do you have in mind in in
terms of your um regime as thechief operating officer?
What what kind of changes areyou overseeing in the company or
the internal operations?
SPEAKER_01 (16:26):
Well, we we are on a transformation strategy.
Um our new CEO and theleadership team determined the
strategy one year ago, and wesaid that you know we wanted to
transform Mandarin Oriental byunfolding our full potential and
unfolding using the fan as youknow the way to explain that.
(16:49):
And so we've set a veryambitious growth target to
double in size in the next 10years.
So that you know, my role is todrive transformation, but most
importantly, to bring thecolleagues with me, right?
Because people, you know, aren'talways so confident with change.
Um, so you know, it's aboutperformance, and we've got to
perform to deliver now, andwe've got to transform for the
(17:11):
future.
And it's not either or you'vegot to do both at the same time,
right?
So I see my role as having beenan operator to um take care of
that messaging and bring mycolleagues, whether it's general
managers or area vice presidentsor everybody with us, to make
that something they can imagineand something that they feel
they want to be part of in thefuture, because that will be our
(17:32):
success.
SPEAKER_00 (17:32):
So when you double the company size, now it takes
so much effort the way you'redescribing each hotel, all the
team.
Um so how do you expect to scaleup that entire culture and
double it in 10 years whilemaintaining that culture in
every single property?
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
I think the culture is something very unique, and
that's something that werecognize.
And we were on quite a slowgrowth trajectory, obviously,
you know, post-COVID anddifferent challenges.
But you know, if you don'tchange, you die.
You know, so we're at the stagenow that, you know, with about
40 hotels, we're too big to besmall, but we're too small to be
big, right?
So it's about critical mass.
(18:13):
So we did a huge piece ofresearch into the market to see
where the growth opportunitieswere, and we mapped the compound
average growth for the differentsectors, and luxury has a huge
opportunity.
So, you know, we have thatmapped out.
Now with our hotels, we were 41at the beginning of the year,
we're 43 today, we're going tobe about 48 by the end of the
(18:34):
year.
We're not going to add them allat once, but it's all about
growing our talent from withinso that when you're opening in
Timbuktu, it's a Mandarin GM.
Um, if you're opening Acapulco,it's a Mandarin GM.
And building the team.
Now, of course, you need to havelocal colleagues as well for the
local culture, but it'sblending, it's building talent,
(18:54):
and it's buying talent as well.
And I think with the growthtrajectory we've got, I think
that's feasible, and we feelconfident about delivering it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
So five hotels in I I think you mentioned five this
year, right?
Yes.
That's incredible growth on abase of 40 to maintain that
culture.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
But also, um, we're not just building new hotels,
we're also taking over themanagement of existing hotels
such as the Letesio in Paris andthe Conservatorium in Amsterdam.
So I think, you know, we've gotthe we've got the muscle
internally, and it's about howwe scale that.
So we recognize that we need newcapabilities.
(19:34):
Um, so one, it's buildingcapability, and two, it's
scaling for growth, building inthose resources for the future.
SPEAKER_00 (19:42):
You know, it it seems that uh most of the luxury
hotels are on this path towardsexpansion.
And so the question is (19:48):
is luxury becoming more democratic,
or are we just redefining whatit means to be luxury and what
it means to be special?
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
I think it's democratic in that it's becoming
more accessible.
Um, I think with the changingway of the world in terms of the
working week and leisure time,the choices people making, um,
thing around multi-generationaltravel and experience is
something very important.
But at the same time, I thinkpeople are looking for something
(20:20):
more than um material items,they're looking for fulfillment.
And I think it was one of thereally big learnings after COVID
that people were prepared toinvest in those experiences
where they were getting a returnon investment.
Um, and I so I think it goesboth ways.
It becomes more exclusive,depending on what you're looking
for, but I think we'reaccessible to a much wider
(20:41):
audience.
And you look at markets such asChina opening up, and that's a
whole new world.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
So you mentioned that you know, after COVID,
there was clearly some you knowredefining by people as to what
they want, what kind of theirpriorities in life.
And so, but it's the same thingthat happens with the different
generations.
Each generation comes and theywant to decide what you know
what they consider as luxury,what the priorities are.
So, what are you finding thechange in this Gen Z or the new
(21:11):
generations that are comingaround?
How are they viewing luxury?
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
I think they're much better informed because they've
got a much deeper and wideraccess to information.
So what they're reading about onsocial media is informing their
choices.
I think there's a lot morearound responsible tourism.
I'm not saying everybody's goingto go by boat as opposed to on a
plane, but I think there's anawareness of their impact on the
environment.
(21:36):
You know, we're not building ahotel on a coral atoll on the
Maldives, it sounds silly.
But you know, we are partneringwith developers who have
responsible development andprocurement values.
Um I I think there's a it goesacross all aspects of the
spectrum, but I think certainlyultra high network of
individuals, the guesting andour hotel's people who have
(21:59):
that.
That wonder lust for tourism arecertainly making more
responsible choices, and we needto respond to that accordingly.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Okay.
I want to pivot to a little bitabout you.
And I know that you became ageneral manager at the age of
28.
So clearly you would have had alot of confidence in your
ability, and people would haveseen that.
What advice would you give toyour younger self about
confidence, resilience, or avoice in the boardroom?
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
You know, I was I was very lucky because although
I went to hotel school, I didn'tstudy very hard because I was
far too busy working 40 hours aweek in a bar and a restaurant.
But actually, my my true passionwas politics.
So I was in a lot of troublewhen I was a student.
Quite useful for making aspeech, not many technical
skills.
And there were people that Istudied with who took it a lot
(22:51):
more seriously than me, but theykind of didn't do as well.
And what I say to everybody isyour most important choice is
the organization you're workingfor.
So, you know, if you're workingreally hard and it's really
tough and you're learning,that's okay.
But if you're working reallyhard and it's really tough and
you're not learning, you'rewasting your time.
So beyond choosing the rightorganization that's going to
(23:12):
give you the opportunities,working for somebody who is
going to give you thoseopportunities.
And to be honest with you, I waslucky.
I was in the right place at theright time.
Yes, I did work hard, but peoplegave me those opportunities.
And the other thing I say topeople is I was never ready for
any job I had, but somebodybelieved in me, right?
And they say maybe when I wasyounger, I was more ambitious
(23:34):
because I said I wanted to be aGM before I was 30.
But then I was gifted thesecareer moves.
So I I feel very, very lucky.
And if anything, I say tostudents, you know, if you don't
believe in yourself, no one elsewill, right?
You've got to dream big.
So when I say to students,what's your career aspiration?
They say, Oh, maybe to bedirector of rooms.
I'm like, What?
(23:55):
You know, we're here because wewant you to be GM and CEO and
chairman.
So you've got to have thatambition, you know, aim for the
stars and reach the moon orwhichever way it goes.
And I think that's important.
And I actually wish I'd goneoverseas earlier because I had
my whole career in the UKbecause I kept getting these
great career moves, and itwasn't until I joined Mandarin
that I went overseas.
SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
Okay, so you worked across iconic cities and
legendary hotels.
Um, can you talk about somethings you've learned from any
of those properties or differentlessons from different hotels?
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
When I went to um Asia for the first time, I was
quite conscious.
I was joining Mandarin, it was aluxury organization.
Um, I'd never worked overseasbefore.
So I I spoke to somebody I knewand I said, Hey, can you give me
some advice, please?
And he gave me lots ofunrepeatable things.
However, he said to me, and I Ihave it on a um a hotmail um
(24:49):
email screenshot, um, I have onepiece of advice for you, going
to Asia.
Praise loudly and publicly, andcriticize quietly and privately.
I was like, all right, okay,sounds quite sensible.
So when I first went to HongKong, I really, really took this
on board and actively practicedit, and it actually had great
(25:11):
results.
But what I realized veryquickly, it wasn't personal to
Asia, it was applicable anywherein the world, right?
So that's one that always stickswith me.
When I went from Hong Kong, um,my next role was in Washington,
D.C.
in the US.
I might say it was the biggestculture shock of my career.
And, you know, it was a unionenvironment.
Um, and that was very differentfor me.
(25:32):
Um, but it was really about umtreating the colleagues with
with great respect and dignityand recognizing their roles and
also the circumstances that theywere dealing with at home and
building an environment oftrust, which which took some
time.
And at that time, you know, it'sno secret, we had really
challenged quality scores, solet's leave it at that.
Um, in fact, they were the worstquality schools in the group.
(25:54):
And I thought, well, goodnessme, I'm not running the hotel
that's got the worst qualityschools in the group.
So we set up a huge campaign ofeducation and team building and
training all around the missionand vision and guiding
principles, and we trained andwe trained and we trained, and
we had lots of incentives.
Then I thought, this isn'treally moving the needle.
And um, I thought we should giveback to the local community as a
(26:16):
sort of a team builder.
And so we decided to do afundraiser.
It was a 10K around themonuments, and it was a long
story, but all the differentdepartments came together and
there was a bit of a competitionfor fundraising.
And on the day we did the 10Kwith the children and the dogs,
and um, you know, the theporters were pooling their tips,
and we were doing bake sales,and guests supported us, and it
(26:36):
was colleagues of all differentage groups and different
seniority.
But what happened after thatfundraising?
It was to build a playground forthe local children.
The colleague engagement scorewent up 11 points, and then the
quality score went from thelowest in the group to the
second highest in one year.
And the game changer was thiscommunity initiative, which is
still running to this day,right?
(26:58):
And then thirdly, I justmentioned when I went to
Thailand, it's quite a uniqueculture, and I I read this, I
read the hotel was veryhistoric, as you know, it goes
back to 1876.
So I read the hotel's historybook, and I was like, Oh, I
can't remember.
So I read this history bookthree times.
So when I arrived in that hotel,I kind of knew more about the
history than most people, andpeople said to me, Oh, it's
(27:18):
amazing, you're the first everfemale general manager.
Because my predecessor was there41 years, he was a guy.
I said, No, actually, I'm thethird.
And they said, No, no, no,Amanda, you're the first.
I said, No, read the history.
Um, there were three ladiesbefore me in the 1800s.
SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
But also, I followed the palace because the royal
family is very, very important,highly respected in Thailand.
So on Monday I wore yellow, onTuesday I wore pink, on
Wednesday I wore green, onThursday I wore orange, on
Friday I wore blue.
And um some of my colleagues inthe hotel said to me, You're a
bit old-fashioned.
But the ladies from the palaceused to come up to me and say,
(27:53):
Thank you for observing ourtraditions.
I didn't wear a trouser suit forfive years, because ladies in
Thailand do not wear trousersuits, and I didn't wear black
for five years until His MajestyRadman IX passed away, and I
wore black every day for ahundred days.
So those traditions aresomething that you can sneer at.
(28:14):
But I always said to thecolleagues, we are a guest in
their country, and my view wasthat we should be very
respectful of the traditions,um, and it seemed to work out
okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Fantastic.
Um I know you may not bethinking yet of legacy, you
still have a long runway to go.
Um but when people reflect manyyears later, um, what would you
hope they say about yourleadership?
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
I'd like them to say that I was kind.
And I would like them to saythat however difficult it was, I
did the right thing.
Because to me, values andintegrity as a leader are
something that's absolutelyfundamental.
I may not be very good at manyaspects of my job, but you know,
at the end of the day, we haveto take tough calls and we have
to lead by example, and that'ssomething that's very, very
(29:04):
important to me, more than anyother material achievement.
SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
I think that's an outstanding quality to be kind,
to be remembered as someone whois very kind.
Um, okay, so I have a few otherclosing questions for you.
Um, one is what do you hope thenext generation of hospitality
leaders understand better thanwe did in our generations?
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
I think that they see hospitality as a profession.
I get very annoyed when I hearabout the hospitality industry
because I think carmanufacturing is an industry.
Now, you know, we we know in thepast hospitality had a bad
reputation.
It was very long hours, it wasvery bad pay and bad behavior in
the kitchen.
Now, the hours are better thanthey ever were, the pay is
better than it ever was, and thebehavior is better than it ever
(29:47):
was.
But I would like people to seehospitality as a first choice
profession as opposed tosomething that you do because
you couldn't get into anythingelse.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
That is so uh exciting.
I know when I started my career,I used to work 12 hours in and
at that point 12 to 14, and thenhave to make an excuse that
okay, I've got something to do,so I'm leaving.
Um but yeah, this is this isvery, and I and I hope that you
go give a talk to a whole lot ofhigh school and aspiring
professionals that theyunderstand our industry.
(30:19):
Um what is an inherited beliefabout luxury or leadership that
you may have learned or beenexposed to as you went through
your career, but that you've letgo over time.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
I I I mentioned earlier this sort of snobbery
about five-star.
Yeah, I there's no pace for it.
It's nothing to do with withclass, it's it it's about a an
attitude and it's about energy.
And you know, one of our valuesis around humility.
And it's kind of quiteinteresting.
You can explain humility inAsia, you try explaining it
respectfully in America byhumility.
(30:54):
And it's like kindness.
People think it's being weak,but it's not, it's something
much, much stronger than that.
So I think that you know, youyou hear more about CEOs being
kind and considerate, but it'snot exactly the macho boardroom
thing that it was in the past.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Excellent.
So, when was the last time aguest or a colleague surprised
you in a way that reminded youwhy you loved this business?
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
I'm not quite sure about the last time, but um when
I was um leaving the hotel, um,I don't know why it just came
into my mind.
Um, I was at when I stoppedbeing a GM and I went into the
corporate office, um, I had tomove out of the hotel, and I'd
always lived in the hotel, so Iwas moving into an apartment and
we were rushing all of our stuffand the luggage, and somebody
(31:44):
pushed something into my hand.
It was a little brown paper bag,and I got in the car and I
opened this paper bag, and therewas like a bath bomb in it.
You know what a bath bomb is?
Um, but there was a handwrittennote that I kept, and I found it
the other day, actually, whichis what reminded me, and it
said, I'd like to thank you fromthe bottom of my heart because
(32:04):
you gave the colleagues theprivilege of dining in the hotel
at 50% discount, which meant myfamily could come and see my
place of work, and I've workedhere for 30 years, and I've
never been able to afford itbefore.
And it was signed off from alittle person, don't try and
find out who I am.
SPEAKER_00 (32:26):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Because in the old day, the senior managers used to
get 50% discount, but thecolleagues only got 20%.
And when I got there, I waslike, hang on, we're the highest
paid people in the business.
I want all of our linecolleagues to be able to bring
their family and friends and beproud.
And it's something that didn'tcost me anything.
Um, and my senior colleaguesweren't very impressed because I
said, uh, you'll all be getting50% now.
(32:48):
But for them to be able to beproud and show their families
their place of work wassomething that meant a lot to
me.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
I'm sure, I'm sure it did.
And you know, part of that, umpart of that not giving them a
big discount was also probablythat snobbery aspect you're
talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
Absolutely.
unknown (33:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
Okay.
So I have some rapid-firewrap-up questions.
Each answer can be just onesentence or a word.
Um favorite hotel memory, guestside or host side?
SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
I have a saying that you see the best of people in
the worst of times.
And when I think of the toughthings that you have in hotels,
the team always comes togetherand pulls through, and that's
the best feeling in the wholeworld.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
Luxury item you will not travel without.
SPEAKER_01 (33:39):
Socks.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Socks, okay.
Underrated city for hospitality.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
Glasgow.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Okay.
That doesn't come to mind when Ithink of hospitality, but
leadership quote you live orlove by, or love.
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
Leaders are dealers in hope.
Napoleon.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Most extravagant or thoughtful guest request you
have ever fulfilled.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Um some guests from Russia wanted to go to the
Temple of Dawn.
Um, so it was organized to givethem private access via a
cavalcade of police boats, andthey presented a golden Buddha
to the abbot of the temple.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Last time you got emotional at work, except for
the time when you were leavingthe hotel to go to the corporate
office.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
I think when colleagues, you know, recognize
that you go over and above andsay thank you, because we deal
in such a cutthroat, fast-pacedenvironment that when people say
thank you sometimes, it's verymoving.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Proudest moment as a leader so far.
SPEAKER_01 (34:55):
I think being part of the transformation, um, you
know, to have this huge ambitionand to be bringing the
colleagues with us and seeingthe progress 12 months that
we're making, it's it's reallyuplifting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:07):
So you travel quite a bit, and you just we were
talking before, and you saidyou've been out for so many
weeks and can't get back tohome.
Uh you can't wait to get backhome.
So when you travel and you gointo a hotel, what makes you
feel at home anywhere in theworld?
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
Or does it I think feeling at home is it's
something very primal in termsof safety and security.
Um, but it's um I suppose Idon't think of it as being home,
but it it's somewhere where Ican work and sleep, you know, in
(35:44):
in a quiet, peacefulenvironment.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Amanda, thank you so much.
That was a fascinatingconversation.
And I truly learned a whole lotabout leadership and leaders who
care and uh about teamwork, andI hope people listening take all
of those lessons from it.
So thank you for coming today.
unknown (36:04):
Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
If you want to join the conversation and share your
thoughts and suggestions, emailme at shawdeen at bu.edu.
That is sha atpu.edu.
This episode was produced byMara Littman, marketing by
Rachel Hamlin, research by Dr.
Lan Lu, video and production byJason Jose of Cocoon Media.
(36:26):
Thank you to the entire team atBoston University School of
Hospitality Administration.
To keep up with DistinguishedPodcasts, be sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutexperience innovation in our
undergraduate and graduateprograms by visiting BU.edu
slash hospitality.
(36:48):
I'm Arunapneja, Dean of BUSchool of Hospitality, wishing
you a great day and thank youfor watching the podcast.
Imagine walking through the gilded corridors of
a legendary hotel where historywhispers from the walls and
every guest is not justremembered but known.
Now imagine being the personresponsible for orchestrating
that magic.
Not just in one city, but acrossa global brand synonymous with
elegance, grace, and timelesshospitality.
(00:30):
Today's guest is someone who hasnot only led iconic properties
like the Mandarin OrientalBangkok and Hong Kong, hotels
that define the very meaning ofluxury, but has also shaped the
future of hospitality from theinside out.
Amanda Hindman began her journeywith Mandarin Oriental as a
journal manager, creatingunforgettable guest experiences.
(00:53):
But her story didn't stop atoperations.
She was appointed Chief Peopleand Culture Officer, a move that
signaled just how seriously thebrand takes its own people as
stakeholders in the luxuryexperience.
And now, as chief operatingofficer, she oversees the entire
guest journey across continents,blending intuition with
(01:14):
precision and heritage withinnovation.
This is a conversation aboutluxury, but not just the marble
lobbies and Michelin-starredmenus.
It's about emotionalintelligence and leadership,
about creating culture with thesame care as cocktails, and
about the unseen human momentsthat turn a stay into a story.
(01:36):
Amanda Heintman doesn't just runhotels, she curates legacies.
And today she joins us to talkabout the future of luxury one
unforgettable moment at a time.
Amanda, welcome to the schooland our podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
Thank you very much.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
So let's first start with what is luxury.
It used to mean exclusivity,used to mean opulence, and even
inaccessibility.
How do you define luxury today?
And has that definition evolvedwith your leadership journey?
SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
I think luxury is a little bit like beauty.
It's in the eye of the beholder.
And I think there's differenttimes and different occasions
when it means something very,very different to us.
You know, I've always used theanalogy that anybody can build a
beautiful hotel.
But the thing that really makesthe difference is the people and
the passion and their engagementand how special they make us
(02:33):
feel.
And I've been in places that areperhaps a little bit older where
I've had incredible experiences.
And likewise, there's alsoproperties with gold-plated bath
taps, but they have no soul.
I think, you know, theopportunity and the skill in our
profession is to recognize theindividual and the the reason
why they're traveling, andthrough emotional intelligence,
(02:55):
to be able to recognize whatthey need in that moment to make
it special and to really trulyget over and above, to meet and
exceed their expectations and tocreate memories that are going
to stay with them forever.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
I'm going to come back to this, but this is very
interesting where you talk aboutuh it's the people in the hotel
that are going to make thedifference.
And you're absolutely right,anyone can build a beautiful
hotel, but it's the people thatare going to make the
difference.
So on that theme, um, we hear alot about personalization and
experience over products.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
So, in your view, what are the intangible elements
that truly define modern luxuryfor me it's something around
time, um, because time issomething that constantly passes
without spending, um, withoutstating the obvious, but also is
something that we can't buy, andit's about creating those
(03:55):
moments.
Um, and I think something veryfundamental, they say human
beings need shelter.
I think we need to feel safe andsecure in our environment.
Now that's not being intimidatedby some terribly posh place, or
in the old days by the doormanlooking down his nose to see how
you were dressed.
It's about colleagues having theemotional intelligence to
(04:16):
recognize what your needs areand to be able to then craft the
experience and elevate theexperience to make that
meaningful to you at that time.
And that's totally different ifyou're in a family reunion, if
you're on a romantic moment or abusiness meeting.
But it's it's recognizing it'sbeing able to pick up the cues
and then translate them into notonly uh a genuine experience,
(04:39):
but to make that more bespoken,more individual.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Now, this is very interesting, but in um in the
world of hospitality education,there are very few places that
teach you that that aspect ofhospitality where you're picking
up on the needs of the guests.
So I guess this must be a magicthat you do at the Mandarin.
SPEAKER_01 (05:02):
I wouldn't have said it's necessarily magic, but I
think it's something that we'revery attuned to.
And our service culture iscalled the legendary quality
experience, and that wasactually written around NLP,
neurolinguistic programming.
And you know, I remember when Ifirst moved to London, I had my
career in Scotland, and I wentto London, it was like a
five-star boys club, and theysaid, Oh, you know, you can't
(05:24):
come in, you're female andyou're in a four-star hotel.
And it sounds really, reallycrazy, but I think also, as I
mentioned earlier, in the pastpeople were judged by
appearances.
Um, and you know, I've had someinstance in my career where you
have a bit of a come to Jesusmoment and you realize there's
something more fundamental thanthat.
And you know, from the old daysin Bangkok when we used to stand
(05:45):
in the lobby like Kurt Vac Vitalto meet the guests, you can't
judge people by appearances.
You know, that the person in aripped tracksuit with a
skateboard under their arm andwearing slippers could have come
on a private jet.
And frankly, the guy in thethree-piece suit carrying a
briefcase might be stealinghandbags.
And I think the pandemic reallytaught us this whole thing about
(06:07):
appearances.
And, you know, through somelife-changing moments in in my
career, I we started using theword kindness, that we wanted to
be known for kindness.
And people looked at me like Iwas a bit mad, like, no, no, no,
we're five-star luxury, what areyou talking about kindness?
But I think, you know, kindnessis recognizing that every guest
has a choice.
They don't have to stay with us,they can stay wherever they
(06:29):
want.
And by the way, the same goesfor our colleagues.
Our colleagues have a choice.
You know, to go off the subject,we used to talk about the war on
talent.
It's over, it's finished.
Talent won, right?
So I think this kindness andbeing able to put yourself in
someone else's shoes, andparticularly during COVID,
because you couldn't see theirmouth, right, to see their eyes
(06:49):
and to take those cues and beable to craft the moment is
something that I would like tothink our colleagues are
becoming better at, but it'ssomething that we can always
deliver at a more consistent umstandard of service.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
You know, to make judgments about people by
looking at them, by the shoesthey're wearing, the dress, the
clothes, is human nature.
So what does it take for you toget the colleagues to say, okay,
we don't we are not going to dothat at the Mandarin?
It must take a lot of effort.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Yes, of course.
But I think it's something that,you know, generally our
colleagues in learning anddevelopment and people and
culture, we're talking aboutculture, right, right?
I mean, I go off the subjectagain.
I used to joke that HR stood forhuman remains.
And when I was offered the job,I said, I don't want to be the
chief HR officer.
And James Riley said to me, Yousaid you wanted this job.
I said, I don't want to do HR, Iwant to be the chief people
(07:40):
officer.
Because, you know, people are atthe heart of everything we do,
and culture is about theenvironment that we create.
And if we can look intosomebody's eyes, I mean, it's an
old story, but you know, theguest is screaming and shouting
at the front desk.
And my colleagues come to me andsay, This guest is so rude and
so angry and so upset.
I'm like, okay, so let's thinkabout the guest.
(08:01):
Maybe he's just been on a longhaul flight, maybe he's
frightened of flying, maybe he'sgot a terminal illness, maybe
his wife's having an affair,maybe his children are sick.
It's our job to put him in abetter place and not to judge
his clothing.
And you know, we have people whoare extraordinarily wealthy and
successful and stay in ourhotels, but we have people that
(08:22):
save up for a whole year to comefor afternoon tea.
We have people who may have veryserious illnesses, who come to
have a beautiful moment with amember of their family.
And I find that incrediblyhumbling.
I wasn't born in a palace, Ididn't have butlers.
You know, you saved up for aspecial occasion, and we have to
recognize that next to themulti-tulti billionaires in the
(08:43):
private jets, we've got peoplethat are using their own hard
earned money to have a specialexperience.
And I think they really deserveour respect and appreciation for
that.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Now it's it's telling that you evolved from
operations into, like you said,uh with James Riley, you said
you want to be the people andculture officer.
And then after that, you're backto being in you're back in
operations essentially.
Now you're the CEO.
So clearly, through your throughour conversation and through
your own journey, it's veryclear that Mandarin places a lot
(09:20):
of emphasis on the team, thecolleagues that you have, as
much as the guests that arecoming in.
SPEAKER_01 (09:27):
I have a view that, you know, we we talk about our
colleagues being our mostimportant asset.
Without our colleagues, we arenothing.
They got us here and they willtake us into the future.
Now, you know, we could talk allday about recruitment, but we
have to choose the right peopleto join Mandarin Oriental who
have the right spirit, who havekindness and humility and want
(09:48):
to be part of our family.
I mean, colleagues say to me,Amanda, we've got so many
vacancies.
I'm like, yeah, I know.
And there's hundreds of peoplethat want to work for us.
And you know, we don't want thembecause we have to choose the
right people.
And when we have chosen theright people, you know, we need
to grow and develop them in linewith the needs of the business.
A lot of people come to me andsay, Hey Amanda, I want more
money.
(10:08):
I'm like, sure, why do you wantmore money?
And they say, because I workedhere for three years.
And you have to say, Look, I'msorry, we don't pay based on
length of service, but I can payyou more money if you can do a
bigger job.
So if you're a commi chef andyou can become a chef de party,
if you're a waiter, you canbecome a supervisor.
Because if you can pay somebodymore money, that changes their
(10:28):
life and it changes theirfamily's life.
So if we can grow our owncolleagues internally, that's
something very, very powerful.
And beyond that, we have tocreate a culture of recognition
and appreciation.
I mean, we all like to bethanked.
My boss doesn't thank me veryoften, but when he does, you
know, you know, it feels great.
An army marches on its stomach.
(10:50):
We need decent food in thecolleague restaurant, we want
our colleagues to look amazing,we need proper changing rooms.
All of those things go tocreating a meaningful colleague
experience.
And if we've done all of thosethings, you never guess what, we
might deliver efficient service,the guests might be delighted,
um, the colleagues might behappy, the guests might come
(11:11):
back and we might make money.
But we're never gonna makemoney, and the guests are never
gonna come back, and we're nevergonna deliver great service
unless that whole colleagueexperience is taken very
seriously and is at the startingpoint and the heart of
everything we do.
So I was always an operator, butI figured out a long time ago
(11:31):
this thing about the colleagues,and yeah, I was never very good
at finance and marketing.
I never worked in rooms, I neverworked in engineering, I never
worked in kitchen.
But all I knew was aboutsupervising colleagues and then
managing colleagues and thenleading colleagues.
So it doesn't matter if you dorooms or F and B or marketing,
it's about learning leadership.
So people want to follow you.
(11:53):
And I truly believe that's thegame changer.
So I'm back where I always wasin operations.
People and culture was great,but operations and people and
culture are transformation.
So that's why I'm here.
SPEAKER_00 (12:05):
So is this um uh the the culture that you have at
Mandarin?
Um, do you have to work at it?
Do you sort of upfront decidethis is what the culture we
should have, and then you makeefforts to make sure that you
get there?
SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
I think Mandarin Oriental has always had a
culture, but at the same time itevolves, you know, the world
changed, and we've got to changeas well.
And for me, the most importantthing is to create a safe and
respectful and inclusiveculture.
So I was bullied at school.
Now I don't mean violently, butgirls are narcity, right?
(12:38):
Psychological cruelty.
And I cannot bear bullying.
It just absolutely bores me.
And you know, I joke a littlebit, I'll be in trouble again
with Marcus, that you know, theguys in the white coats, the
chefs, used to scream and shoutand threaten.
You know what?
The chefs are actually muchbetter than they used to be.
But there is still sometimesunfortunate behavior whereby
people think it's okay to screamand shout.
(12:59):
It is not okay to scream andshout.
So we've recently redefined ourvalues because we're on this
transformation journey.
And at the heart of it, it'sabout being exceptional, not
just for our guests, but alsofor our colleagues, but creating
opportunities for growth, as Ijust mentioned, and respect and
(13:20):
trust and teamwork.
And we believe that thattranslates at all levels of the
organization, whether you're theCEO or you know, whether you're
an operational colleague.
And if we can live and act bythose values, we will build a
culture that nurtures our talentand where people want to stay
and they feel safe and secure.
SPEAKER_00 (13:39):
So um I mean it's the question I was gonna ask is
that um investment in people,and you said it may translate
into the kind of guestexperience that you're fair
with.
And it obviously translates intomaking money for the company.
Um But the question is um howmuch do you think this internal
(14:02):
culture is part of your externalidentity?
SPEAKER_01 (14:06):
I think it's it's absolutely at the heart of
everything we do because it'sthe way we we treat our each
other, it's the way we treat ourguests, it's the way we treat
the community, our owners, ourstakeholders.
It's our DNA, it's who we are.
It's absolutely fundamental.
There's beautiful hotelcompanies with gorgeous hotels
that don't have the culture.
(14:27):
And I think there's alsotwo-star and three-star and
four-star operators that havegood culture and have a good
DNA, but it it's it's it's gotto be the foundation because at
the end of the day, it'sinforming your behavior and the
decisions that you take and theway you're perceived internally
and externally.
SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
It's incredible the amount of effort you're placing
on the culture and team and thecolleagues.
DNA.
And what about, let's say,extracting out uh into the
entire, let's say, the luxurybrands, or even not just luxury
brands, but any company, I'massuming you think it's is
should be the same in all otherplaces as well.
SPEAKER_01 (15:08):
I think when you look at the successful
organizations, they they have aculture that they've determined.
Now, I think we all know theremight be an external culture and
an internal culture.
And it's interesting, uh a veryfamous um luxury retailer said
that every luxury brand needs aheritage.
And you know, we've taken ourheritage very seriously and
(15:28):
we've kind of put it at theheart of the culture to talk
about our dual Asian roots.
And I certainly believe thatAsian hospitality is very
elegant and very sophisticated.
So, from our original foundinghotels in Bangkok and Hong Kong,
you know, this is something thatwe're weaving into our story and
it's become part of our DNA.
And we've said we want to bemasters of craft, so really
(15:51):
recognizing the craftsmanshipthat goes into cocktails or
culinary or bed making, but alsoshapers of culture, which is
about the way we act, but alsothe impact that we have on our
communities and where weoperate, you know, outside the
four walls.
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
Okay, so um I hear all about the culture.
I'm also curious to know whatelse do you have in mind in in
terms of your um regime as thechief operating officer?
What what kind of changes areyou overseeing in the company or
the internal operations?
SPEAKER_01 (16:26):
Well, we we are on a transformation strategy.
Um our new CEO and theleadership team determined the
strategy one year ago, and wesaid that you know we wanted to
transform Mandarin Oriental byunfolding our full potential and
unfolding using the fan as youknow the way to explain that.
(16:49):
And so we've set a veryambitious growth target to
double in size in the next 10years.
So that you know, my role is todrive transformation, but most
importantly, to bring thecolleagues with me, right?
Because people, you know, aren'talways so confident with change.
Um, so you know, it's aboutperformance, and we've got to
perform to deliver now, andwe've got to transform for the
(17:11):
future.
And it's not either or you'vegot to do both at the same time,
right?
So I see my role as having beenan operator to um take care of
that messaging and bring mycolleagues, whether it's general
managers or area vice presidentsor everybody with us, to make
that something they can imagineand something that they feel
they want to be part of in thefuture, because that will be our
(17:32):
success.
SPEAKER_00 (17:32):
So when you double the company size, now it takes
so much effort the way you'redescribing each hotel, all the
team.
Um so how do you expect to scaleup that entire culture and
double it in 10 years whilemaintaining that culture in
every single property?
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
I think the culture is something very unique, and
that's something that werecognize.
And we were on quite a slowgrowth trajectory, obviously,
you know, post-COVID anddifferent challenges.
But you know, if you don'tchange, you die.
You know, so we're at the stagenow that, you know, with about
40 hotels, we're too big to besmall, but we're too small to be
big, right?
So it's about critical mass.
(18:13):
So we did a huge piece ofresearch into the market to see
where the growth opportunitieswere, and we mapped the compound
average growth for the differentsectors, and luxury has a huge
opportunity.
So, you know, we have thatmapped out.
Now with our hotels, we were 41at the beginning of the year,
we're 43 today, we're going tobe about 48 by the end of the
(18:34):
year.
We're not going to add them allat once, but it's all about
growing our talent from withinso that when you're opening in
Timbuktu, it's a Mandarin GM.
Um, if you're opening Acapulco,it's a Mandarin GM.
And building the team.
Now, of course, you need to havelocal colleagues as well for the
local culture, but it'sblending, it's building talent,
(18:54):
and it's buying talent as well.
And I think with the growthtrajectory we've got, I think
that's feasible, and we feelconfident about delivering it.
SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
So five hotels in I I think you mentioned five this
year, right?
Yes.
That's incredible growth on abase of 40 to maintain that
culture.
SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
But also, um, we're not just building new hotels,
we're also taking over themanagement of existing hotels
such as the Letesio in Paris andthe Conservatorium in Amsterdam.
So I think, you know, we've gotthe we've got the muscle
internally, and it's about howwe scale that.
So we recognize that we need newcapabilities.
(19:34):
Um, so one, it's buildingcapability, and two, it's
scaling for growth, building inthose resources for the future.
SPEAKER_00 (19:42):
You know, it it seems that uh most of the luxury
hotels are on this path towardsexpansion.
And so the question is (19:48):
is luxury becoming more democratic,
or are we just redefining whatit means to be luxury and what
it means to be special?
SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
I think it's democratic in that it's becoming
more accessible.
Um, I think with the changingway of the world in terms of the
working week and leisure time,the choices people making, um,
thing around multi-generationaltravel and experience is
something very important.
But at the same time, I thinkpeople are looking for something
(20:20):
more than um material items,they're looking for fulfillment.
And I think it was one of thereally big learnings after COVID
that people were prepared toinvest in those experiences
where they were getting a returnon investment.
Um, and I so I think it goesboth ways.
It becomes more exclusive,depending on what you're looking
for, but I think we'reaccessible to a much wider
(20:41):
audience.
And you look at markets such asChina opening up, and that's a
whole new world.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
So you mentioned that you know, after COVID,
there was clearly some you knowredefining by people as to what
they want, what kind of theirpriorities in life.
And so, but it's the same thingthat happens with the different
generations.
Each generation comes and theywant to decide what you know
what they consider as luxury,what the priorities are.
So, what are you finding thechange in this Gen Z or the new
(21:11):
generations that are comingaround?
How are they viewing luxury?
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
I think they're much better informed because they've
got a much deeper and wideraccess to information.
So what they're reading about onsocial media is informing their
choices.
I think there's a lot morearound responsible tourism.
I'm not saying everybody's goingto go by boat as opposed to on a
plane, but I think there's anawareness of their impact on the
environment.
(21:36):
You know, we're not building ahotel on a coral atoll on the
Maldives, it sounds silly.
But you know, we are partneringwith developers who have
responsible development andprocurement values.
Um I I think there's a it goesacross all aspects of the
spectrum, but I think certainlyultra high network of
individuals, the guesting andour hotel's people who have
(21:59):
that.
That wonder lust for tourism arecertainly making more
responsible choices, and we needto respond to that accordingly.
SPEAKER_00 (22:07):
Okay.
I want to pivot to a little bitabout you.
And I know that you became ageneral manager at the age of
28.
So clearly you would have had alot of confidence in your
ability, and people would haveseen that.
What advice would you give toyour younger self about
confidence, resilience, or avoice in the boardroom?
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
You know, I was I was very lucky because although
I went to hotel school, I didn'tstudy very hard because I was
far too busy working 40 hours aweek in a bar and a restaurant.
But actually, my my true passionwas politics.
So I was in a lot of troublewhen I was a student.
Quite useful for making aspeech, not many technical
skills.
And there were people that Istudied with who took it a lot
(22:51):
more seriously than me, but theykind of didn't do as well.
And what I say to everybody isyour most important choice is
the organization you're workingfor.
So, you know, if you're workingreally hard and it's really
tough and you're learning,that's okay.
But if you're working reallyhard and it's really tough and
you're not learning, you'rewasting your time.
So beyond choosing the rightorganization that's going to
(23:12):
give you the opportunities,working for somebody who is
going to give you thoseopportunities.
And to be honest with you, I waslucky.
I was in the right place at theright time.
Yes, I did work hard, but peoplegave me those opportunities.
And the other thing I say topeople is I was never ready for
any job I had, but somebodybelieved in me, right?
And they say maybe when I wasyounger, I was more ambitious
(23:34):
because I said I wanted to be aGM before I was 30.
But then I was gifted thesecareer moves.
So I I feel very, very lucky.
And if anything, I say tostudents, you know, if you don't
believe in yourself, no one elsewill, right?
You've got to dream big.
So when I say to students,what's your career aspiration?
They say, Oh, maybe to bedirector of rooms.
I'm like, What?
(23:55):
You know, we're here because wewant you to be GM and CEO and
chairman.
So you've got to have thatambition, you know, aim for the
stars and reach the moon orwhichever way it goes.
And I think that's important.
And I actually wish I'd goneoverseas earlier because I had
my whole career in the UKbecause I kept getting these
great career moves, and itwasn't until I joined Mandarin
that I went overseas.
SPEAKER_00 (24:16):
Okay, so you worked across iconic cities and
legendary hotels.
Um, can you talk about somethings you've learned from any
of those properties or differentlessons from different hotels?
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
When I went to um Asia for the first time, I was
quite conscious.
I was joining Mandarin, it was aluxury organization.
Um, I'd never worked overseasbefore.
So I I spoke to somebody I knewand I said, Hey, can you give me
some advice, please?
And he gave me lots ofunrepeatable things.
However, he said to me, and I Ihave it on a um a hotmail um
(24:49):
email screenshot, um, I have onepiece of advice for you, going
to Asia.
Praise loudly and publicly, andcriticize quietly and privately.
I was like, all right, okay,sounds quite sensible.
So when I first went to HongKong, I really, really took this
on board and actively practicedit, and it actually had great
(25:11):
results.
But what I realized veryquickly, it wasn't personal to
Asia, it was applicable anywherein the world, right?
So that's one that always stickswith me.
When I went from Hong Kong, um,my next role was in Washington,
D.C.
in the US.
I might say it was the biggestculture shock of my career.
And, you know, it was a unionenvironment.
Um, and that was very differentfor me.
(25:32):
Um, but it was really about umtreating the colleagues with
with great respect and dignityand recognizing their roles and
also the circumstances that theywere dealing with at home and
building an environment oftrust, which which took some
time.
And at that time, you know, it'sno secret, we had really
challenged quality scores, solet's leave it at that.
Um, in fact, they were the worstquality schools in the group.
(25:54):
And I thought, well, goodnessme, I'm not running the hotel
that's got the worst qualityschools in the group.
So we set up a huge campaign ofeducation and team building and
training all around the missionand vision and guiding
principles, and we trained andwe trained and we trained, and
we had lots of incentives.
Then I thought, this isn'treally moving the needle.
And um, I thought we should giveback to the local community as a
(26:16):
sort of a team builder.
And so we decided to do afundraiser.
It was a 10K around themonuments, and it was a long
story, but all the differentdepartments came together and
there was a bit of a competitionfor fundraising.
And on the day we did the 10Kwith the children and the dogs,
and um, you know, the theporters were pooling their tips,
and we were doing bake sales,and guests supported us, and it
(26:36):
was colleagues of all differentage groups and different
seniority.
But what happened after thatfundraising?
It was to build a playground forthe local children.
The colleague engagement scorewent up 11 points, and then the
quality score went from thelowest in the group to the
second highest in one year.
And the game changer was thiscommunity initiative, which is
still running to this day,right?
(26:58):
And then thirdly, I justmentioned when I went to
Thailand, it's quite a uniqueculture, and I I read this, I
read the hotel was veryhistoric, as you know, it goes
back to 1876.
So I read the hotel's historybook, and I was like, Oh, I
can't remember.
So I read this history bookthree times.
So when I arrived in that hotel,I kind of knew more about the
history than most people, andpeople said to me, Oh, it's
(27:18):
amazing, you're the first everfemale general manager.
Because my predecessor was there41 years, he was a guy.
I said, No, actually, I'm thethird.
And they said, No, no, no,Amanda, you're the first.
I said, No, read the history.
Um, there were three ladiesbefore me in the 1800s.
SPEAKER_00 (27:32):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
But also, I followed the palace because the royal
family is very, very important,highly respected in Thailand.
So on Monday I wore yellow, onTuesday I wore pink, on
Wednesday I wore green, onThursday I wore orange, on
Friday I wore blue.
And um some of my colleagues inthe hotel said to me, You're a
bit old-fashioned.
But the ladies from the palaceused to come up to me and say,
(27:53):
Thank you for observing ourtraditions.
I didn't wear a trouser suit forfive years, because ladies in
Thailand do not wear trousersuits, and I didn't wear black
for five years until His MajestyRadman IX passed away, and I
wore black every day for ahundred days.
So those traditions aresomething that you can sneer at.
(28:14):
But I always said to thecolleagues, we are a guest in
their country, and my view wasthat we should be very
respectful of the traditions,um, and it seemed to work out
okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:25):
Fantastic.
Um I know you may not bethinking yet of legacy, you
still have a long runway to go.
Um but when people reflect manyyears later, um, what would you
hope they say about yourleadership?
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
I'd like them to say that I was kind.
And I would like them to saythat however difficult it was, I
did the right thing.
Because to me, values andintegrity as a leader are
something that's absolutelyfundamental.
I may not be very good at manyaspects of my job, but you know,
at the end of the day, we haveto take tough calls and we have
to lead by example, and that'ssomething that's very, very
(29:04):
important to me, more than anyother material achievement.
SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
I think that's an outstanding quality to be kind,
to be remembered as someone whois very kind.
Um, okay, so I have a few otherclosing questions for you.
Um, one is what do you hope thenext generation of hospitality
leaders understand better thanwe did in our generations?
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
I think that they see hospitality as a profession.
I get very annoyed when I hearabout the hospitality industry
because I think carmanufacturing is an industry.
Now, you know, we we know in thepast hospitality had a bad
reputation.
It was very long hours, it wasvery bad pay and bad behavior in
the kitchen.
Now, the hours are better thanthey ever were, the pay is
better than it ever was, and thebehavior is better than it ever
(29:47):
was.
But I would like people to seehospitality as a first choice
profession as opposed tosomething that you do because
you couldn't get into anythingelse.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
That is so uh exciting.
I know when I started my career,I used to work 12 hours in and
at that point 12 to 14, and thenhave to make an excuse that
okay, I've got something to do,so I'm leaving.
Um but yeah, this is this isvery, and I and I hope that you
go give a talk to a whole lot ofhigh school and aspiring
professionals that theyunderstand our industry.
(30:19):
Um what is an inherited beliefabout luxury or leadership that
you may have learned or beenexposed to as you went through
your career, but that you've letgo over time.
SPEAKER_01 (30:33):
I I I mentioned earlier this sort of snobbery
about five-star.
Yeah, I there's no pace for it.
It's nothing to do with withclass, it's it it's about a an
attitude and it's about energy.
And you know, one of our valuesis around humility.
And it's kind of quiteinteresting.
You can explain humility inAsia, you try explaining it
respectfully in America byhumility.
(30:54):
And it's like kindness.
People think it's being weak,but it's not, it's something
much, much stronger than that.
So I think that you know, youyou hear more about CEOs being
kind and considerate, but it'snot exactly the macho boardroom
thing that it was in the past.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Excellent.
So, when was the last time aguest or a colleague surprised
you in a way that reminded youwhy you loved this business?
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
I'm not quite sure about the last time, but um when
I was um leaving the hotel, um,I don't know why it just came
into my mind.
Um, I was at when I stoppedbeing a GM and I went into the
corporate office, um, I had tomove out of the hotel, and I'd
always lived in the hotel, so Iwas moving into an apartment and
we were rushing all of our stuffand the luggage, and somebody
(31:44):
pushed something into my hand.
It was a little brown paper bag,and I got in the car and I
opened this paper bag, and therewas like a bath bomb in it.
You know what a bath bomb is?
Um, but there was a handwrittennote that I kept, and I found it
the other day, actually, whichis what reminded me, and it
said, I'd like to thank you fromthe bottom of my heart because
(32:04):
you gave the colleagues theprivilege of dining in the hotel
at 50% discount, which meant myfamily could come and see my
place of work, and I've workedhere for 30 years, and I've
never been able to afford itbefore.
And it was signed off from alittle person, don't try and
find out who I am.
SPEAKER_00 (32:26):
Wow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:27):
Because in the old day, the senior managers used to
get 50% discount, but thecolleagues only got 20%.
And when I got there, I waslike, hang on, we're the highest
paid people in the business.
I want all of our linecolleagues to be able to bring
their family and friends and beproud.
And it's something that didn'tcost me anything.
Um, and my senior colleaguesweren't very impressed because I
said, uh, you'll all be getting50% now.
(32:48):
But for them to be able to beproud and show their families
their place of work wassomething that meant a lot to
me.
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
I'm sure, I'm sure it did.
And you know, part of that, umpart of that not giving them a
big discount was also probablythat snobbery aspect you're
talking about.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
Absolutely.
unknown (33:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (33:05):
Okay.
So I have some rapid-firewrap-up questions.
Each answer can be just onesentence or a word.
Um favorite hotel memory, guestside or host side?
SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
I have a saying that you see the best of people in
the worst of times.
And when I think of the toughthings that you have in hotels,
the team always comes togetherand pulls through, and that's
the best feeling in the wholeworld.
SPEAKER_00 (33:34):
Luxury item you will not travel without.
SPEAKER_01 (33:39):
Socks.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Socks, okay.
Underrated city for hospitality.
SPEAKER_01 (33:46):
Glasgow.
SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
Okay.
That doesn't come to mind when Ithink of hospitality, but
leadership quote you live orlove by, or love.
SPEAKER_01 (33:58):
Leaders are dealers in hope.
Napoleon.
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Most extravagant or thoughtful guest request you
have ever fulfilled.
SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
Um some guests from Russia wanted to go to the
Temple of Dawn.
Um, so it was organized to givethem private access via a
cavalcade of police boats, andthey presented a golden Buddha
to the abbot of the temple.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Last time you got emotional at work, except for
the time when you were leavingthe hotel to go to the corporate
office.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
I think when colleagues, you know, recognize
that you go over and above andsay thank you, because we deal
in such a cutthroat, fast-pacedenvironment that when people say
thank you sometimes, it's verymoving.
SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
Proudest moment as a leader so far.
SPEAKER_01 (34:55):
I think being part of the transformation, um, you
know, to have this huge ambitionand to be bringing the
colleagues with us and seeingthe progress 12 months that
we're making, it's it's reallyuplifting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:07):
So you travel quite a bit, and you just we were
talking before, and you saidyou've been out for so many
weeks and can't get back tohome.
Uh you can't wait to get backhome.
So when you travel and you gointo a hotel, what makes you
feel at home anywhere in theworld?
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
Or does it I think feeling at home is it's
something very primal in termsof safety and security.
Um, but it's um I suppose Idon't think of it as being home,
but it it's somewhere where Ican work and sleep, you know, in
(35:44):
in a quiet, peacefulenvironment.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Amanda, thank you so much.
That was a fascinatingconversation.
And I truly learned a whole lotabout leadership and leaders who
care and uh about teamwork, andI hope people listening take all
of those lessons from it.
So thank you for coming today.
unknown (36:04):
Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
If you want to join the conversation and share your
thoughts and suggestions, emailme at shawdeen at bu.edu.
That is sha atpu.edu.
This episode was produced byMara Littman, marketing by
Rachel Hamlin, research by Dr.
Lan Lu, video and production byJason Jose of Cocoon Media.
(36:26):
Thank you to the entire team atBoston University School of
Hospitality Administration.
To keep up with DistinguishedPodcasts, be sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutexperience innovation in our
undergraduate and graduateprograms by visiting BU.edu
slash hospitality.
(36:48):
I'm Arunapneja, Dean of BUSchool of Hospitality, wishing
you a great day and thank youfor watching the podcast.
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