Kate Buhler, founder and president of Profitable to Train, is a leading expert in hospitality service excellence and profitability. With decades of experience across luxury brands including Four Seasons, Ritz-Carlton, Rosewood Hotels & Resorts, Baccarat, Peninsula, and Bulgari, Kate is known for her unique approach to training that drives both employee satisfaction and financial success. Her new book, Inhospitable: Lessons Learned from a Lifetime in Service, tackles a critical question in the industry: why is great service often so hard to come by?
In this episode, Dean Arun Upneja engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Kate about the evolving landscape of hospitality, the critical role of the human touch in a tech-driven world, and how her “Profitable to Train” method helps businesses unlock untapped potential. Kate also shares insights on bridging generational gaps in service expectations, strategies for meaningful revenue management, and advice for rising professionals.
The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.
Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations
Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu
Marketing: Anne Dawson
Editing: Isabella Laikin and James Leon
Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
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SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Kate Bühler is the founder and president of
Profitable to Train.
I'm excited to have Kate herebecause she not only brings a
wealth of knowledge but also arefreshing perspective on
hospitality.
She's worked with major luxurybrands such as the Four Seasons,
Ritz Carlton, Rosewood Hotelsand Resorts, Bacchara,
Peninsula, and Bulgarie, inaddition to exclusive
(00:27):
independent properties.
Kate's specialty is finding waysto increase both job
satisfaction and companyprofitability.
In her newly published book,which I have right here with me,
Inhospitable, Lessons Learnedfrom a Lifetime in Service, Kate
explores the commonly askedquestion: why is good service so
(00:48):
difficult to find?
I'm Arunupneja, Dean of the BughSchool of Hospitality and host
of the Distinguished Podcast.
Welcome, Kate, and thank you forjoining us.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
It is wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Okay, so let's talk about your new book,
Inhospitable.
First of all, congratulations.
Thank you.
The title really grabs you.
So what inspired you to writethis and what do you hope
leaders will take away from it?
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Well, I've been talking about doing it for a
really long time, and I'm glad Ifinally, uh especially during
COVID, had time to put pen topaper.
But it's really I tell the storyof what the hotel industry used
to be like, what it's evolvinginto, and um what I hope that
our beloved industry will becomein the future.
(01:34):
There's so many changeshappening.
I I sort of wanted to mark themdown and uh and allow other
people to have a discussionabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
So you're right about how ideas and expectations
of service and hospitality haveevolved over time.
What do you think we've lost inthis evolution and what do you
think we've gained?
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Aaron Ross Powell Well, you know, overall, uh
especially for um for mid-pricedhotels, it's clear that things
have become more casual.
Um, in this texting world, uhpeople are speaking in shorthand
and everything has to be superfast.
But in the luxury market and inlifestyle brands, I've noticed
(02:16):
that young people aretechnically waiting on people
that are one to two generationsolder than they are.
So they need to be able tocommunicate with people from a
different generation who havedifferent expectations.
And the other thing that I'venoticed, which is kind of fun,
is that influencers on uh on theInternet now are talking about
(02:40):
getting dressed up and going outfor special occasions.
And I'm seeing more and moreyoung people actually want to
celebrate and want to getdressed up again and um and sort
of enjoy some glamour again.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
That's a good change because at some point, you know,
I think over the last uh many,many years, there was this
tendency to dress down and say,why you need to dress up.
I mean, even airplanes, youknow, growing up, you had you
had to really dress very nicely.
And then over time now we justgo in our whatever we happen to
be wearing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Pajamas, right.
SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
Aaron Ross Powell So you talked about the young
people serving people who aregenerations of a couple of
generations above them.
So let's dive right into theexpectations of service and the
trends that of uh that we seeemerging in luxury hospitality
space.
Sure.
Given that you worked with theleading brands, Peninsula for
(03:36):
Seasons, Ritz Galton, and manyothers.
So what kind of trends have youseen?
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
Um in the highest levels ofluxury, I'm seeing companies
trying to develop their brandsinto lifestyles.
So you can purchase brandedproducts from some of the luxury
hotels.
And this was something theyalways did a little bit on the
side, but now it's really theirchance to get their label out
(04:05):
there when people are not onvacation and as conversation
pieces.
So I'm seeing that happen.
I'm also seeing differentcompanies trying to basically
make their mark as special,unique in the industry.
And that's especially hard to doright now because there is a
huge competition for the top.
(04:27):
Um there are so many new brandsthat are developing that have
developed in the last fiveyears.
And they're creating a lot ofcompetition.
I'll say also I'm noticing thatin Europe and in Asia and the
Middle East, um, so really everyregion except for the Americas,
I'm seeing really anold-fashioned competition in who
(04:52):
can provide the most pampering,most luxurious service.
And of course, the U.S.
is a little bit different fromthat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
The labor cost is here so high that it's just very
difficult to provide that levelof service in in the United
States.
That's right.
I was recently in Cairo in Egyptand um speaking to the general
manager of a luxury hotel there,he said my cost of service, and
you know, you'll be shocked, oryou may not be shocked, but a
lot of people in the US wouldbe.
(05:21):
He said it's about 15 percent.
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Yes.
And so in uh in the Middle East,or if I met a client um in Asia,
um, we are talking a lot aboutbutler service.
We're talking about elevatoroperators, um, pages, things
that have kind of gone by thewayside here in the U.S.
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
So with the high cost of labor, now we are seeing
a lot of automation, we'reseeing a lot of AI, so rapid
rise in technology.
So how do you see the future ofluxury evolving, particularly in
the United States, where thecost of labor is so high?
Are there aspects of the humantouch that technology cannot
(06:03):
replace?
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Absolutely.
And actually, here's a partwhere I get a bit concerned, um,
you know, especially in theU.S., uh starting with
technology.
Um, first of all, I'm an olderperson.
I like to say older, not old,but I remember when the fax
machine was really exciting.
And um, back as we were watchingtechnology get developed in the
(06:27):
hospitality industry, we allthought it would mean actually
less work for us.
And boy, were we wrong.
Um, what it has done, instead ofgiving us more time to be
creative and uh and really toserve the guests more, employees
are expected to take on evermore responsibilities and
(06:47):
positions are merging together.
Um I think that that's thebiggest concern I have right now
for the future of this industryis that if you continue to merge
all of the departments together,something gets lost.
AI is still finding its place inthe hospitality industry.
What I've seen is, you know, ifa company wants to send out a
(07:09):
generated reservation message,um, or if there's a welcome bot
text coming in for a conventionhotel, I think that's fine.
But there's no feeling ofpersonalization.
So the things that can't getreplaced, I think housekeeping,
engineering, spa service, umreally good food and beverage
(07:31):
servers, and in my opinion, agreat concierge still can't get
replaced by uh technology, um,even though I know a lot of
people will try.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Right.
And interestingly, if you have asmall hotel on the smaller side,
if you have a hotel, you know,three, four hundred rooms or
bigger, you can afford to haveconcierge and you can afford to
have food and beverage and spa.
But if you are on the smallerend, it's very hard to justify
keeping a concierge or or havingspa operations when you cannot
(08:04):
do not justify, you know, thekind of uh but the larger the
hotel, then the concept ofluxury falls apart.
So we're in this very strangeworld where it's very difficult
to get everything right in termsof scale versus luxury and
personal touch.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Aaron Ross Powell 100 percent, Arun.
So I think you've actuallytouched upon the most important
factor that I think will keepthis industry going strong, and
that is not to consider thesethings in luxury as amenities,
but instead to consider them asthe value for money that people
(08:43):
are getting when they come to afull-service hotel.
So you're correct in that a verylarge hotel, it's hard to uh to
have luxury.
But a single concierge, ifthey're really good at what they
do and they're working, let'ssay, in a small resort, they can
bring over a million dollarsworth of business, ancillary
(09:05):
business, spa appointments anduh and tours to the area.
So actually, they should bepositioned to make the property
money as opposed to being anexpense of a of a salary.
But you're touching on somethingso crucial because people will
say, uh, I will tell, forexample, a potential client, I
(09:29):
have a great idea.
This will make your property anextra$2 million a year, and you
just need to hire um an extrafront desk agent.
And they won't do it.
And I think, well, that frontdesk agent is costing you
$80,000.
So um so we have to be mindfulof spending some money,
investing some money in order tobe able to make money too.
(09:52):
Aaron Ross Powell, spend moneyto make money, right?
Aaron Ross Powell That's thetruth.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
So in terms of technology, I have one other
question for you, which is um soyou have two equivalent hotels,
both 150 rooms, and one isultra-luxury charging, you know,
thousands of dollars a day, andthe other one is you know two,
three hundred dollar range.
But the cheaper hotel, uh whentwo three hundred is not cheap,
(10:17):
but uh uh the the thelower-priced hotel has um robots
that are going and delivering tothe rooms.
So you check in at two in themorning, you go to the go to the
room and you need something.
The luxury hotel says, Wow, wecan't send robots to the room.
And so they have to now wait fora human being to get free from
some other duties to go up tothe room and it might take 20
(10:40):
minutes, 30 minutes, where thelower price hotel just puts the
toothbrush on the robot andpresses the button and it goes
and delivers.
So now you have a cheaper hoteldelivering faster service than a
luxury hotel.
And at that point, do I want ahuman touch, somebody delivering
to me, or do I want it quick andright there?
(11:00):
And to me, that is luxury, theluxury of time.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
Right.
So um I love that example.
And you know, to me, um first ofall, I would love the robot.
That sounds great.
Uh for delivering a toothbrush,I'll take a robot any day.
For the more complex, um Iaccidentally um uh left my
passport in an airplane inMorocco.
(11:26):
There I really want a person tohelp me.
Uh I want somebody who, first ofall, will answer the phone when
I dial zero.
And then I want somebody who uhknows someone who works at the
airport to be able to get mypassport back.
So there um I'll pay a lot ofmoney for that human touch.
I think that um where we coulduse technology would be in the
(11:49):
mundane.
But where we need to put reallyskilled, amazing hospitality
workers uh are on the creative.
So we've kind of been doing itthe opposite way around.
So I'm I'm excited to see it gothat way.
SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
Aaron Powell That's amazing treading the needle in
terms of where automation androbotics can help versus um
real.
But by the way, is that storyreal that you forgot your
pastor?
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
It is, actually.
It was really stupid.
But but sure enough, theconcierge was able to have the
passport uh and a littlechocolate waiting for me in my
guest room.
And while I was speaking, uh hesignaled to me from the back of
the room that it was all takencare of.
So those are the things, right,that you just you just can't
(12:33):
replace.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
We all need to live in hotels where we can use these
guns here.
SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
Aaron Powell We do.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Okay.
So left shift gears a littlebit.
Now you developed this uhmethod, the profitable to train,
which sounds like a fascinatingapproach to both service and
profitability.
So can you walk us through thecore of this method and how it
impacts the businesses you workwith?
SPEAKER_01 (12:55):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
Um it's taken me years.
I have 35 years in thisindustry, and it's taken me at
least 25 to fully develop thisconcept.
But the premise is simple.
Uh I make sure that theemployees and the managers all
know what is the final goal ofownership.
(13:19):
And when everybody understandswhat the game plan is, they're
going to do it.
So I'll walk you through atypical client.
So typically I will arrive at aproperty, I'm going to a
property in Los Angeles on acouple days, and I'm going to
experience the product as acustomer.
And I'm not just going to lookto see if they hit industry
(13:39):
standards, although I will, butI'll also look to see: do they
sell to me?
Are they responsive?
Are they kind?
Then the next step after I'velooked at it from the point of
view of a customer is I analyzetheir data.
So I think about it from anownership point of view.
Is every department asprofitable as it could be?
(14:01):
And I don't just look at savingmoney, because no one ever got
rich saving money.
I look at are they selling, andI look at what is selling.
I even look at who is selling.
One server in a restaurant couldbe selling anywhere from a half
a million to a million dollars ayear worth of stake in a
steakhouse, for example.
(14:22):
Sometimes I'll see two servers,they both work the exact same
shifts, one selling$500,000 andone selling a million.
Well, I want to know why is oneperson doing twice as much.
So I look pretty deep into thelayers of how are they making
their money and what's working.
(14:43):
And then I've looked at it fromthe guest point of view, from
the owner's point of view.
I look at it with the employees,and we do a workshop where we
talk about sales techniques, wetalk about strategy, and I show
them their own numbers, usuallyfor the first time.
When an employee realizes howvaluable they are to their own
(15:06):
company, they make much betterchoices in the future.
When they understand truly how asmall change can completely
impact uh their bottom line andtheir take-home pay, they make
much better choices in thefuture.
So then I finally take all ofthose three aspects and bring it
(15:27):
to leadership and management.
I share with them what theemployees told me, what they
need to be successful, and wemake sure that everybody's on
the same page.
And it really works wonderfully.
SPEAKER_00 (15:41):
Do you ever have the situation where the employee
says, oh, I am that valuable,I'm going to ask for extra
money?
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
I have.
I've had them say, I want to geta promotion, or I've had them
say, um, I feel like I should bebetter compensated.
And I say, well, then let's lookat that.
Why do you think you aren't?
Or if you want to get a greatpromotion, um, your attitude is
going to go a long way towardsthat also.
And there are many people that Itrained as waiters and front
(16:12):
desk agents that are now generalmanagers that hire me.
So I love that actually.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
Aaron Ross Powell Fantastic.
Okay.
So you mentioned the concept ofa service generation gap.
So what does that mean and howdoes that affect how hospitality
teams should be trained?
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
Absolutely.
So for the employees who want towork in the detail-oriented,
competitive luxury market, Imake sure that they understand
the expectation of people whoare a couple of generations
ahead of them, like 20 to 40years older than they are.
There's a lot of exceptions, ofcourse, Arun.
(16:53):
There are there are wealthypeople who are young, but for
the most part, luxury hotelshave a higher average median age
than a business hotel, forexample.
So we talk about the art ofwriting a thank you note, and we
talk about when texting usingfull sentences, and I'll say,
(17:14):
like your parents do, and theyget it.
I will talk about personalizedtouches whenever possible and
how I say to them, don't justtouch a guest's wallet, but also
make sure you're touching theirheart.
I have a story for you actually.
Um I will tell you, you know,years ago, um uh when I first
(17:37):
started in the industry, Iworked for a while as a butler.
And um butlers uh do a lot ofdifferent things.
Um, but one of the things wewould do is we would open the
guest suitcase, we would takePolaroid pictures of the
suitcase, and um we would dothat so that when we unpacked
and repacked for them at the endof their stay, it looked exactly
(18:01):
the way uh it did when it cameto us.
Um That is a typical example ofhow we can show value to our
guest is when we take the timeto have that one extra special
touch.
Uh guests appreciate it andguests come back for
(18:21):
generations.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Guests appreciated then.
I'm not sure now.
Will they appreciate if you'reopening their suitcases and
taking a detailed scan ofeverything that they have?
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
Aaron Ross Powell Understood.
Well, they have to know inadvance we're going to do it.
I certainly wouldn't do thatwithout telling them first.
But you know, you bring up apoint.
Um a lot of hoteliers are sayingto me, oh, I don't think our
guests even want us in the room.
They want to just be left alone.
And I'm not sure that that'sactually true.
(18:54):
I think most people would lovetwice a day room service, uh
twice a day housekeepingservice.
And by the way, while I'm at it,they would love 24-hour room
service.
These are things that we'retelling ourselves that the
guests no longer want, or we'reoffering it to guests, but at an
extra cost, which of course thenthey don't want.
(19:17):
Um but if you want to justifythat$1,000 price tag, what are
you giving them besides the roomto sleep in?
Um and honestly, uh I thinkthere's nothing more lovely than
going out with clients or goingout with friends, coming back um
(19:37):
pretty late at night, and havingyour room made up for evening
service.
So, you know, it saves money tocut these things, but it also
might just uh cause themeventually to have to cut prices
too.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
Clearly, you are not talking about me because I put a
do not disturb sign on for theduration of my stay.
If it is two days, three days,there's a do-not disturb sign.
I think I was in a hotel luxuryproperty um earlier this week,
and by mistake I didn't put iton.
I come back, the bed is all madeup, room.
Yes, it did feel good, but youknow, the note and the chocolate
(20:15):
by the bedside also made adifference.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
So Interesting.
Interesting.
I'm learning so much about youtoday.
Um Do you love when you comehome and everything is in
beautiful, pristine condition?
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Aaron Ross Powell Okay.
So my question is how can hotelscontinue to provide service and
value to the guests, not just ona pay-per-view basis, but more
authentic hospitality.
And you did mention hotels doingaway with many of these services
and then adding a lot of chargesif you wanted.
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
Aaron Ross Powell Yes.
So as I said, you know, I worryabout this race to the bottom
where we've cut, cut, cutservices, especially for good
reason during COVID, had to cuta lot of services.
But housekeeping, room service,evening service, to me, they
differentiate a hotel from ashort-term rental.
(21:09):
And by the way, don't get mewrong, I love a good short-term
rental sometimes.
There is a place for that in themarket.
Um, when I travel with myfamily, if it's going to be a
longer stay, then I'm with you.
I want uh to feel at home.
But if I go to a full service uhhotel, um the best executive
(21:32):
housekeepers in the world willsay to me when when I'm testing
their hotel, they'll say, I wantto make sure that it you can see
that the housekeeper touchedeverything in the room.
Whereas when you're in a nonluxury hotel, the rule of thumb
is don't touch the guest things.
So if you're in an economyhotel, you don't touch the guest
(21:55):
things at all.
If you're in a luxury hotel, youtouch everything in that Room
and you do wherever possible asmall personal touch so that the
guest knows that you cared.
Examples.
If I have medication out near mynightstand, they automatically
put a bottle of water next toit.
(22:15):
If I went for a run and I havemy sneakers out, they
automatically tuck in the laces.
So these are tiny little things,but they're the things that make
going to a hotel special.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Yeah, and these are some practices that are employed
by some very high-end hotelswith daily room charge that
would justify that kind ofexpense.
So you're hired by companies toincrease profitability, and you
mentioned that earlier, whichcomes down to revenue
management.
So we think of revenuemanagement mostly in terms of
(22:49):
numbers, but you think of it asmore of a human equation.
So can you expand on that?
How do people, emotions, andguest experiences factor into
your revenue strategies?
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
So first of all, it doesn'tmatter how beautiful the
building is.
If the employees aren't kind andnice, I see no value in being
there.
So everything is dictated onemotion.
Most of the properties I workwith, they want me to, for
(23:22):
example, design their front deskupselling program.
That's a specialty of mine.
And a typical hotel will make anadditional million to$3 million
a year with an upselling programjust for those that aren't in
rooms.
When somebody has when a hotelhas unsold suites, they will
(23:43):
offer them to a checking-inguest at a special price.
Now, many directors of revenuethink of that, and I was a
director of revenue for quitesome time, they think of that as
an equation, and you calculatewhat the prices should be.
And I do that.
But actually, what you also haveto do is you need to tell the
(24:06):
agents what to say, whatverbiage do you use.
You need to explain thereasoning behind making an
emotional luxury buyingdecision.
They have to understand thepsychology of a guest, and most
of these guests are quite a bitmore wealthy than they are.
We also need to tell them whatto say when something goes
(24:28):
terribly wrong, otherwise, theywon't say it again.
So all of those safeguards areto make the employee feel safe
enough to ask someone for moremoney at check-in.
And when you have the employeewho's comfortable with that,
then they will execute and do abeautiful job on your pricing.
(24:51):
But you have to have both.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Right.
And you mentioned thispsychology behind and making the
employees feel comfortable.
I think that's one of thehallmarks of our school is that
we think that we are in thebusiness of human interactions
and taking care of people andproviding them with good
experiences.
But I want to go back tosomething that you said in the
book, which is that places ofwork are buildings, they're
(25:18):
occupied by people and you'reworking, so don't get too
attached.
But then at the same time, youwant the employees to be engaged
and provide this amazingservice, which if they are not
really identifying with thecompany that they work with, so
kind of thread the needle there.
How do you reconcile those twokind of thought processes you
(25:40):
have?
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
I think I can do it best bytelling a story.
So while I was working as abutler, again, this is the
beginning of my career, I had aregular guest who was never
happy.
He was just never happy with myservices.
He yelled all the time.
He was extremely difficult.
(26:01):
And one of the things that hewould do every night is he would
ask me to come to the room at 4o'clock exactly with a bowl of
warm mixed nuts.
And then he would say to me onone day, Kate, I don't want any
cashews.
And I would have to go back andpick out all the cashews.
And then the next day he'd say,you know, I really don't feel
(26:23):
like any almonds today, and Iwould have to go pick them all
out.
And it was so annoying, right?
I was really mad.
And I was in the back pickingout whatever it was he told me
to do.
He did the same thing with MMson a different trip.
And I finally realized thatactually what he wanted was to
feel powerful and important.
(26:45):
So I stopped kind of giving hima little attitude.
I started to actually addresshim the way he wanted to be
addressed and give him thecourtesy and the attention that
he needed.
And he was much nicer after thatand much happier.
The fact of the matter is I wasannoyed by his odd ways, his odd
(27:08):
behavior, but I learned not totake it personally.
So you um as a person who worksin service in the service
industry, you have to alwaysgive a lot of warmth, a lot of
caring.
You should care about yourguests, whether they're nice
people or not.
That's not the point.
But you should always protect apiece of your heart because the
(27:31):
guest is not going to have thatsame feeling towards you.
The company, companies change,they change heads, they change,
uh they change ownership, theychange even their methods.
You have to stay true and figureout what is right for you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
One of your secret powers is teaching tangible,
effective tactics for individualemployees to increase sales, and
you've been mentioning thatthroughout the conversation.
So beyond training, how do youget employees at all levels
invested in the company'ssuccess and the bottom line?
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Absolutely.
If you if you show an employeereal numbers, how much money,
for example, they made last yearin tips, and then you say, okay,
that was with an average checkof$60.
If you sold one extra item to aguest, an additional$20
(28:33):
appetizer, one additional$20glass of wine, you would have
made an additional$30,000 worthof tips.
They will do it.
So when you can show them onpaper exactly how the business
works and how they will be moresuccessful, then they definitely
(28:55):
are invested.
You also need to show them whatare the medalli scores, what are
the customer satisfaction scoresof their department.
I usually like to start offfirst by saying, what do you
think it is?
And they'll answer and then I'llsay, well, it's actually this
number here.
How could we get it to thathigher number?
(29:17):
And when you show them everysingle month what their number
is and they see that number growover time, they're getting
invested emotionally in thesuccess of the company.
So my favorite things to hearfrom employees that stay in
touch with me is I make moremoney because of what I learned
(29:40):
in our workshop, or I got apromotion after trying something
you taught me.
This is actually the reason whyI do what I do.
But honestly, for me, it's a joyto see employees start to take
control and take charge of theirown success, financial and
career success.
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
You know, this generation of the millennials
and the Gen Xers.
And sometimes we s feel thatthey don't even care, but you
bring the economic argumentthat, okay, if you care and if
you do what you're supposed todo, you're going to be making so
much more money.
SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's right.
You have to bring it back tothem.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Okay.
So looking back at the wealth ofexperience that you've
accumulated in the past 35years, what have you loved the
most about working inhospitality?
SPEAKER_01 (30:37):
Well, so again, we've been talking about it, but
hands down, I have loved meetingthe people who work in
hospitality, um, hearing theirstories, and uh and getting to
see them just grow their careerover time.
So I've worked with a lot offamous celebrities, and the
glamour of that is a lot of fun.
(30:59):
Um, but actually that's nowherenear as interesting as seeing
somebody um come to a newcountry, start their lives over
again, and sacrifice everythingthat they have so that their
families can have a better life.
To me, there's no greater joythan that.
Um then, of course, I also justreally love a well-executed
(31:23):
service.
So if there's a if there's abeautiful restaurant or an
amazing experience, um, thatmakes my heart sing too.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
What's your number one lesson, or what advice would
you give to aspiring hospitalityprofessionals such as the one
graduating from our school?
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
I I, you know, I have so muchfaith in this business.
And I first want to congratulatethem on making a great career
choice because it's anadventure.
But my biggest advice isprobably the one thing they
don't want to take.
And that is I say take your timeand learn the business and don't
(32:05):
be afraid to take an entry-leveljob in the beginning.
Um, if you want to managewaiters, many of whom are 30
years older than you are, youbetter know how to be a great
waiter.
And if you want to be in sales,start working as a catering
(32:26):
assistant and learn how awedding actually grows from the
beginning to the end of acontract.
And here's where a lot ofstudents will say, Arun, well,
then why'd I go to school,right?
College is expensive.
And I am very well aware ofthat.
I just paid for two sons'colleges.
But I will say that your collegedegree will help you move faster
(32:50):
through the ranks.
And there will come a time whenthat will be really important
that you have that degree.
Um, but in the beginning, youcan't make a mistake, just take
any job and start learning fromthere.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
Right.
And one of the things we do, werequire two internships here at
our school for undergraduatestudents, and each internship
has to be at least 300 hours.
And I always tell students thefirst internship that you're
doing has to be line level.
You cannot try to get into amanagement position.
You need to learn how to workwith people that you'll be
(33:24):
managing very soon.
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
That's so valuable because I'veseen a lot of potentially great
managers burn out because theynever really learned or
understood the job that they'remanaging.
And then, of course, they're notgoing to be successful.
SPEAKER_00 (33:39):
Aaron Powell Right.
So let's um uh we have alightning round of questions,
but before that, um I think um Iwant to mention one thing that I
learned about you uh when we metlast time, which is that you are
in Boston one week a month, andthe other three weeks you're
traveling each week to adifferent luxury property,
(34:00):
sometimes resorts, sometimescities like Los Angeles you're
going, San Francisco and otherbeautiful cities of the world.
Uh that's incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (34:09):
You've made it.
Thank you.
Thanks very much.
Um It is the joy of my life totravel and to be in one company
in London one week and be inanother company in Los Angeles
the next week is really how youget that broad spectrum of
what's happening in theindustry.
(34:31):
So I feel very blessed, verylucky.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
Aaron Powell Do you get tired of traveling?
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Aaron Powell I really don't.
You don't.
No.
As soon as I am tired of it,I'll stop.
But I uh first of all, I'mstaying in beautiful hotels.
Yes.
So remember, I'm I'm spoiled.
But also uh the the fun of it,the the fun of seeing um going
to a property and then comingback a few months later and
(34:55):
seeing what they did with theinformation also keeps it going
and keeps it interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Okay.
So what's your favorite creaturecomfort when you're on the road?
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Aaron Ross Powell Yes.
Um I love a really light, airy,crisp duvet.
That's that's um just myfavorite thing in the world.
It's just being jet lagged,getting into bed, and uh that
will make me happy.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
Aaron Ross Powell And what's the best splurge when
you're traveling?
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
Um I'll say business class.
Uh business class in theairplane, one of my favorite
tricks is to buy an economyticket.
And then when you go to theairport, always be well dressed,
go to the first class sectionand say uh how much would it be
for a business class upgrade?
And it's usually um 50 to 80percent off of the full price.
(35:47):
Um also a great massage is alsosomething I like to do.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
I would have imagined that with so much of
flying, you would have hadstatuses and a lot of miles to
upgrade for I have some greatpoints.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
I save them for when I'm traveling privately.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
What is the strangest request you've ever
gotten in your years of workingin hospitality?
SPEAKER_01 (36:08):
Aaron Ross Powell Hmm.
Um besides having to pick outcertain nuts, I will say uh
there's plenty of requests thatI can't tell you on the air, but
I will say we once had a primaballerina stay in a very large
presidential suite, and sherequested pillows to be placed
uh covering the entire floor.
(36:29):
And it was about a 2,000 squarefoot space.
So we had to every day fluff thepillows and put them down and
back out of the room so wewouldn't have our own
footprints.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
Wow.
Why did she want that?
Was she dancing on the pillows?
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
I didn't ask.
SPEAKER_00 (36:47):
Okay.
What is the most inhospitableword or expression?
SPEAKER_01 (36:53):
Oh, that's easy.
No.
Or uh no, sorry, right?
That flat, no, sorry, we don'tdo that.
Um, a robot bringing atoothbrush up at two in the
morning.
I think unfortunately, Arun,what's more likely to happen is
you call down for a toothbrushand they say, no, we don't have
that, sorry.
(37:14):
And they don't even bother tobring it up.
And um so so that just drives mecrazy.
Um, it's not that we never sayno to a guest.
As long as it's legal, moral,impossible, we find an
alternative.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Aaron Ross Powell I hope you don't encounter that
too much since luxury propertiesyou're staying in.
SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
Aaron Ross Powell You would be surprised.
Um you'd be surprised at uh youknow when there's no staffing,
right?
For example.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
Most hospitable word or expression.
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
Also an easy one.
Um and it's also a great trickwhen wanting to diffuse an angry
guest.
The best phrase you can use isthank you.
And for.
So, for example, if a guest isangry with you, I teach uh in my
workshops to say, thank you forletting me know.
Thank you so much for theinformation.
(38:03):
I really appreciate you tellingme that.
Here's what I'm going to doabout it.
Thank you for choosing us.
Thank you for staying with us.
Thank you for bringing yourchildren here.
Anytime you say thank you, ittriggers a happier emotion and
it slows the guests down.
Um, but when you say thank youfor letting me know, it's so
much better than I wasn't awarethat was a problem.
(38:26):
And it's how you get somebody onyour side.
unknown (38:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
And and I think one of the phrases you mentioned,
um, and here is what I'm goingto do about it.
That's my pet.
I mean, that makes me veryhappy.
If there's a problem, I point itout, and someone says, okay, and
this is what I'm going to doabout it.
Otherwise, many times they justsay, Okay, thanks for letting me
know, and then promptly forgetabout it the moment you turn
your own.
(38:50):
It's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
Absolutely.
You have to follow up.
SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
Kate, thank you for joining us and giving us all of
these insights about uh travel.
I think after listening to thepodcast, there might be many
people who might want to workwith you and be your assistants
while you're traveling.
Um, so thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
Thank you very much.
Thanks for the opportunity andthanks for all the work you do.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
And thank you everyone for joining us today.
Special thanks to the team whoproduces this podcast, Bara
Littman, Andy Halleck, and theentire team at Boston University
School of HospitalityAdministration.
To keep up with DistinguishedPodcasts, be sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutour undergraduate and graduate
(39:36):
programs at Boston UniversitySchool of Hospitality
Administration by visitingbu.edu slash hospitality.
Kate Bühler is the founder and president of
Profitable to Train.
I'm excited to have Kate herebecause she not only brings a
wealth of knowledge but also arefreshing perspective on
hospitality.
She's worked with major luxurybrands such as the Four Seasons,
Ritz Carlton, Rosewood Hotelsand Resorts, Bacchara,
Peninsula, and Bulgarie, inaddition to exclusive
(00:27):
independent properties.
Kate's specialty is finding waysto increase both job
satisfaction and companyprofitability.
In her newly published book,which I have right here with me,
Inhospitable, Lessons Learnedfrom a Lifetime in Service, Kate
explores the commonly askedquestion: why is good service so
(00:48):
difficult to find?
I'm Arunupneja, Dean of the BughSchool of Hospitality and host
of the Distinguished Podcast.
Welcome, Kate, and thank you forjoining us.
SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
It is wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
Okay, so let's talk about your new book,
Inhospitable.
First of all, congratulations.
Thank you.
The title really grabs you.
So what inspired you to writethis and what do you hope
leaders will take away from it?
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Well, I've been talking about doing it for a
really long time, and I'm glad Ifinally, uh especially during
COVID, had time to put pen topaper.
But it's really I tell the storyof what the hotel industry used
to be like, what it's evolvinginto, and um what I hope that
our beloved industry will becomein the future.
(01:34):
There's so many changeshappening.
I I sort of wanted to mark themdown and uh and allow other
people to have a discussionabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
So you're right about how ideas and expectations
of service and hospitality haveevolved over time.
What do you think we've lost inthis evolution and what do you
think we've gained?
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Aaron Ross Powell Well, you know, overall, uh
especially for um for mid-pricedhotels, it's clear that things
have become more casual.
Um, in this texting world, uhpeople are speaking in shorthand
and everything has to be superfast.
But in the luxury market and inlifestyle brands, I've noticed
(02:16):
that young people aretechnically waiting on people
that are one to two generationsolder than they are.
So they need to be able tocommunicate with people from a
different generation who havedifferent expectations.
And the other thing that I'venoticed, which is kind of fun,
is that influencers on uh on theInternet now are talking about
(02:40):
getting dressed up and going outfor special occasions.
And I'm seeing more and moreyoung people actually want to
celebrate and want to getdressed up again and um and sort
of enjoy some glamour again.
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
That's a good change because at some point, you know,
I think over the last uh many,many years, there was this
tendency to dress down and say,why you need to dress up.
I mean, even airplanes, youknow, growing up, you had you
had to really dress very nicely.
And then over time now we justgo in our whatever we happen to
be wearing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Pajamas, right.
SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
Aaron Ross Powell So you talked about the young
people serving people who aregenerations of a couple of
generations above them.
So let's dive right into theexpectations of service and the
trends that of uh that we seeemerging in luxury hospitality
space.
Sure.
Given that you worked with theleading brands, Peninsula for
(03:36):
Seasons, Ritz Galton, and manyothers.
So what kind of trends have youseen?
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
Um in the highest levels ofluxury, I'm seeing companies
trying to develop their brandsinto lifestyles.
So you can purchase brandedproducts from some of the luxury
hotels.
And this was something theyalways did a little bit on the
side, but now it's really theirchance to get their label out
(04:05):
there when people are not onvacation and as conversation
pieces.
So I'm seeing that happen.
I'm also seeing differentcompanies trying to basically
make their mark as special,unique in the industry.
And that's especially hard to doright now because there is a
huge competition for the top.
(04:27):
Um there are so many new brandsthat are developing that have
developed in the last fiveyears.
And they're creating a lot ofcompetition.
I'll say also I'm noticing thatin Europe and in Asia and the
Middle East, um, so really everyregion except for the Americas,
I'm seeing really anold-fashioned competition in who
(04:52):
can provide the most pampering,most luxurious service.
And of course, the U.S.
is a little bit different fromthat.
SPEAKER_00 (05:00):
The labor cost is here so high that it's just very
difficult to provide that levelof service in in the United
States.
That's right.
I was recently in Cairo in Egyptand um speaking to the general
manager of a luxury hotel there,he said my cost of service, and
you know, you'll be shocked, oryou may not be shocked, but a
lot of people in the US wouldbe.
(05:21):
He said it's about 15 percent.
SPEAKER_01 (05:23):
Yes.
And so in uh in the Middle East,or if I met a client um in Asia,
um, we are talking a lot aboutbutler service.
We're talking about elevatoroperators, um, pages, things
that have kind of gone by thewayside here in the U.S.
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
So with the high cost of labor, now we are seeing
a lot of automation, we'reseeing a lot of AI, so rapid
rise in technology.
So how do you see the future ofluxury evolving, particularly in
the United States, where thecost of labor is so high?
Are there aspects of the humantouch that technology cannot
(06:03):
replace?
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Absolutely.
And actually, here's a partwhere I get a bit concerned, um,
you know, especially in theU.S., uh starting with
technology.
Um, first of all, I'm an olderperson.
I like to say older, not old,but I remember when the fax
machine was really exciting.
And um, back as we were watchingtechnology get developed in the
(06:27):
hospitality industry, we allthought it would mean actually
less work for us.
And boy, were we wrong.
Um, what it has done, instead ofgiving us more time to be
creative and uh and really toserve the guests more, employees
are expected to take on evermore responsibilities and
(06:47):
positions are merging together.
Um I think that that's thebiggest concern I have right now
for the future of this industryis that if you continue to merge
all of the departments together,something gets lost.
AI is still finding its place inthe hospitality industry.
What I've seen is, you know, ifa company wants to send out a
(07:09):
generated reservation message,um, or if there's a welcome bot
text coming in for a conventionhotel, I think that's fine.
But there's no feeling ofpersonalization.
So the things that can't getreplaced, I think housekeeping,
engineering, spa service, umreally good food and beverage
(07:31):
servers, and in my opinion, agreat concierge still can't get
replaced by uh technology, um,even though I know a lot of
people will try.
SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Right.
And interestingly, if you have asmall hotel on the smaller side,
if you have a hotel, you know,three, four hundred rooms or
bigger, you can afford to haveconcierge and you can afford to
have food and beverage and spa.
But if you are on the smallerend, it's very hard to justify
keeping a concierge or or havingspa operations when you cannot
(08:04):
do not justify, you know, thekind of uh but the larger the
hotel, then the concept ofluxury falls apart.
So we're in this very strangeworld where it's very difficult
to get everything right in termsof scale versus luxury and
personal touch.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
Aaron Ross Powell 100 percent, Arun.
So I think you've actuallytouched upon the most important
factor that I think will keepthis industry going strong, and
that is not to consider thesethings in luxury as amenities,
but instead to consider them asthe value for money that people
(08:43):
are getting when they come to afull-service hotel.
So you're correct in that a verylarge hotel, it's hard to uh to
have luxury.
But a single concierge, ifthey're really good at what they
do and they're working, let'ssay, in a small resort, they can
bring over a million dollarsworth of business, ancillary
(09:05):
business, spa appointments anduh and tours to the area.
So actually, they should bepositioned to make the property
money as opposed to being anexpense of a of a salary.
But you're touching on somethingso crucial because people will
say, uh, I will tell, forexample, a potential client, I
(09:29):
have a great idea.
This will make your property anextra$2 million a year, and you
just need to hire um an extrafront desk agent.
And they won't do it.
And I think, well, that frontdesk agent is costing you
$80,000.
So um so we have to be mindfulof spending some money,
investing some money in order tobe able to make money too.
(09:52):
Aaron Ross Powell, spend moneyto make money, right?
Aaron Ross Powell That's thetruth.
SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
So in terms of technology, I have one other
question for you, which is um soyou have two equivalent hotels,
both 150 rooms, and one isultra-luxury charging, you know,
thousands of dollars a day, andthe other one is you know two,
three hundred dollar range.
But the cheaper hotel, uh whentwo three hundred is not cheap,
(10:17):
but uh uh the the thelower-priced hotel has um robots
that are going and delivering tothe rooms.
So you check in at two in themorning, you go to the go to the
room and you need something.
The luxury hotel says, Wow, wecan't send robots to the room.
And so they have to now wait fora human being to get free from
some other duties to go up tothe room and it might take 20
(10:40):
minutes, 30 minutes, where thelower price hotel just puts the
toothbrush on the robot andpresses the button and it goes
and delivers.
So now you have a cheaper hoteldelivering faster service than a
luxury hotel.
And at that point, do I want ahuman touch, somebody delivering
to me, or do I want it quick andright there?
(11:00):
And to me, that is luxury, theluxury of time.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01 (11:03):
Right.
So um I love that example.
And you know, to me, um first ofall, I would love the robot.
That sounds great.
Uh for delivering a toothbrush,I'll take a robot any day.
For the more complex, um Iaccidentally um uh left my
passport in an airplane inMorocco.
(11:26):
There I really want a person tohelp me.
Uh I want somebody who, first ofall, will answer the phone when
I dial zero.
And then I want somebody who uhknows someone who works at the
airport to be able to get mypassport back.
So there um I'll pay a lot ofmoney for that human touch.
I think that um where we coulduse technology would be in the
(11:49):
mundane.
But where we need to put reallyskilled, amazing hospitality
workers uh are on the creative.
So we've kind of been doing itthe opposite way around.
So I'm I'm excited to see it gothat way.
SPEAKER_00 (12:03):
Aaron Powell That's amazing treading the needle in
terms of where automation androbotics can help versus um
real.
But by the way, is that storyreal that you forgot your
pastor?
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
It is, actually.
It was really stupid.
But but sure enough, theconcierge was able to have the
passport uh and a littlechocolate waiting for me in my
guest room.
And while I was speaking, uh hesignaled to me from the back of
the room that it was all takencare of.
So those are the things, right,that you just you just can't
(12:33):
replace.
SPEAKER_00 (12:35):
We all need to live in hotels where we can use these
guns here.
SPEAKER_01 (12:39):
Aaron Powell We do.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Okay.
So left shift gears a littlebit.
Now you developed this uhmethod, the profitable to train,
which sounds like a fascinatingapproach to both service and
profitability.
So can you walk us through thecore of this method and how it
impacts the businesses you workwith?
SPEAKER_01 (12:55):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
Um it's taken me years.
I have 35 years in thisindustry, and it's taken me at
least 25 to fully develop thisconcept.
But the premise is simple.
Uh I make sure that theemployees and the managers all
know what is the final goal ofownership.
(13:19):
And when everybody understandswhat the game plan is, they're
going to do it.
So I'll walk you through atypical client.
So typically I will arrive at aproperty, I'm going to a
property in Los Angeles on acouple days, and I'm going to
experience the product as acustomer.
And I'm not just going to lookto see if they hit industry
(13:39):
standards, although I will, butI'll also look to see: do they
sell to me?
Are they responsive?
Are they kind?
Then the next step after I'velooked at it from the point of
view of a customer is I analyzetheir data.
So I think about it from anownership point of view.
Is every department asprofitable as it could be?
(14:01):
And I don't just look at savingmoney, because no one ever got
rich saving money.
I look at are they selling, andI look at what is selling.
I even look at who is selling.
One server in a restaurant couldbe selling anywhere from a half
a million to a million dollars ayear worth of stake in a
steakhouse, for example.
(14:22):
Sometimes I'll see two servers,they both work the exact same
shifts, one selling$500,000 andone selling a million.
Well, I want to know why is oneperson doing twice as much.
So I look pretty deep into thelayers of how are they making
their money and what's working.
(14:43):
And then I've looked at it fromthe guest point of view, from
the owner's point of view.
I look at it with the employees,and we do a workshop where we
talk about sales techniques, wetalk about strategy, and I show
them their own numbers, usuallyfor the first time.
When an employee realizes howvaluable they are to their own
(15:06):
company, they make much betterchoices in the future.
When they understand truly how asmall change can completely
impact uh their bottom line andtheir take-home pay, they make
much better choices in thefuture.
So then I finally take all ofthose three aspects and bring it
(15:27):
to leadership and management.
I share with them what theemployees told me, what they
need to be successful, and wemake sure that everybody's on
the same page.
And it really works wonderfully.
SPEAKER_00 (15:41):
Do you ever have the situation where the employee
says, oh, I am that valuable,I'm going to ask for extra
money?
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
I have.
I've had them say, I want to geta promotion, or I've had them
say, um, I feel like I should bebetter compensated.
And I say, well, then let's lookat that.
Why do you think you aren't?
Or if you want to get a greatpromotion, um, your attitude is
going to go a long way towardsthat also.
And there are many people that Itrained as waiters and front
(16:12):
desk agents that are now generalmanagers that hire me.
So I love that actually.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
Aaron Ross Powell Fantastic.
Okay.
So you mentioned the concept ofa service generation gap.
So what does that mean and howdoes that affect how hospitality
teams should be trained?
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
Absolutely.
So for the employees who want towork in the detail-oriented,
competitive luxury market, Imake sure that they understand
the expectation of people whoare a couple of generations
ahead of them, like 20 to 40years older than they are.
There's a lot of exceptions, ofcourse, Arun.
(16:53):
There are there are wealthypeople who are young, but for
the most part, luxury hotelshave a higher average median age
than a business hotel, forexample.
So we talk about the art ofwriting a thank you note, and we
talk about when texting usingfull sentences, and I'll say,
(17:14):
like your parents do, and theyget it.
I will talk about personalizedtouches whenever possible and
how I say to them, don't justtouch a guest's wallet, but also
make sure you're touching theirheart.
I have a story for you actually.
Um I will tell you, you know,years ago, um uh when I first
(17:37):
started in the industry, Iworked for a while as a butler.
And um butlers uh do a lot ofdifferent things.
Um, but one of the things wewould do is we would open the
guest suitcase, we would takePolaroid pictures of the
suitcase, and um we would dothat so that when we unpacked
and repacked for them at the endof their stay, it looked exactly
(18:01):
the way uh it did when it cameto us.
Um That is a typical example ofhow we can show value to our
guest is when we take the timeto have that one extra special
touch.
Uh guests appreciate it andguests come back for
(18:21):
generations.
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Guests appreciated then.
I'm not sure now.
Will they appreciate if you'reopening their suitcases and
taking a detailed scan ofeverything that they have?
SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
Aaron Ross Powell Understood.
Well, they have to know inadvance we're going to do it.
I certainly wouldn't do thatwithout telling them first.
But you know, you bring up apoint.
Um a lot of hoteliers are sayingto me, oh, I don't think our
guests even want us in the room.
They want to just be left alone.
And I'm not sure that that'sactually true.
(18:54):
I think most people would lovetwice a day room service, uh
twice a day housekeepingservice.
And by the way, while I'm at it,they would love 24-hour room
service.
These are things that we'retelling ourselves that the
guests no longer want, or we'reoffering it to guests, but at an
extra cost, which of course thenthey don't want.
(19:17):
Um but if you want to justifythat$1,000 price tag, what are
you giving them besides the roomto sleep in?
Um and honestly, uh I thinkthere's nothing more lovely than
going out with clients or goingout with friends, coming back um
(19:37):
pretty late at night, and havingyour room made up for evening
service.
So, you know, it saves money tocut these things, but it also
might just uh cause themeventually to have to cut prices
too.
SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
Clearly, you are not talking about me because I put a
do not disturb sign on for theduration of my stay.
If it is two days, three days,there's a do-not disturb sign.
I think I was in a hotel luxuryproperty um earlier this week,
and by mistake I didn't put iton.
I come back, the bed is all madeup, room.
Yes, it did feel good, but youknow, the note and the chocolate
(20:15):
by the bedside also made adifference.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
So Interesting.
Interesting.
I'm learning so much about youtoday.
Um Do you love when you comehome and everything is in
beautiful, pristine condition?
SPEAKER_00 (20:29):
Aaron Ross Powell Okay.
So my question is how can hotelscontinue to provide service and
value to the guests, not just ona pay-per-view basis, but more
authentic hospitality.
And you did mention hotels doingaway with many of these services
and then adding a lot of chargesif you wanted.
SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
Aaron Ross Powell Yes.
So as I said, you know, I worryabout this race to the bottom
where we've cut, cut, cutservices, especially for good
reason during COVID, had to cuta lot of services.
But housekeeping, room service,evening service, to me, they
differentiate a hotel from ashort-term rental.
(21:09):
And by the way, don't get mewrong, I love a good short-term
rental sometimes.
There is a place for that in themarket.
Um, when I travel with myfamily, if it's going to be a
longer stay, then I'm with you.
I want uh to feel at home.
But if I go to a full service uhhotel, um the best executive
(21:32):
housekeepers in the world willsay to me when when I'm testing
their hotel, they'll say, I wantto make sure that it you can see
that the housekeeper touchedeverything in the room.
Whereas when you're in a nonluxury hotel, the rule of thumb
is don't touch the guest things.
So if you're in an economyhotel, you don't touch the guest
(21:55):
things at all.
If you're in a luxury hotel, youtouch everything in that Room
and you do wherever possible asmall personal touch so that the
guest knows that you cared.
Examples.
If I have medication out near mynightstand, they automatically
put a bottle of water next toit.
(22:15):
If I went for a run and I havemy sneakers out, they
automatically tuck in the laces.
So these are tiny little things,but they're the things that make
going to a hotel special.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
Yeah, and these are some practices that are employed
by some very high-end hotelswith daily room charge that
would justify that kind ofexpense.
So you're hired by companies toincrease profitability, and you
mentioned that earlier, whichcomes down to revenue
management.
So we think of revenuemanagement mostly in terms of
(22:49):
numbers, but you think of it asmore of a human equation.
So can you expand on that?
How do people, emotions, andguest experiences factor into
your revenue strategies?
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
So first of all, it doesn'tmatter how beautiful the
building is.
If the employees aren't kind andnice, I see no value in being
there.
So everything is dictated onemotion.
Most of the properties I workwith, they want me to, for
(23:22):
example, design their front deskupselling program.
That's a specialty of mine.
And a typical hotel will make anadditional million to$3 million
a year with an upselling programjust for those that aren't in
rooms.
When somebody has when a hotelhas unsold suites, they will
(23:43):
offer them to a checking-inguest at a special price.
Now, many directors of revenuethink of that, and I was a
director of revenue for quitesome time, they think of that as
an equation, and you calculatewhat the prices should be.
And I do that.
But actually, what you also haveto do is you need to tell the
(24:06):
agents what to say, whatverbiage do you use.
You need to explain thereasoning behind making an
emotional luxury buyingdecision.
They have to understand thepsychology of a guest, and most
of these guests are quite a bitmore wealthy than they are.
We also need to tell them whatto say when something goes
(24:28):
terribly wrong, otherwise, theywon't say it again.
So all of those safeguards areto make the employee feel safe
enough to ask someone for moremoney at check-in.
And when you have the employeewho's comfortable with that,
then they will execute and do abeautiful job on your pricing.
(24:51):
But you have to have both.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Right.
And you mentioned thispsychology behind and making the
employees feel comfortable.
I think that's one of thehallmarks of our school is that
we think that we are in thebusiness of human interactions
and taking care of people andproviding them with good
experiences.
But I want to go back tosomething that you said in the
book, which is that places ofwork are buildings, they're
(25:18):
occupied by people and you'reworking, so don't get too
attached.
But then at the same time, youwant the employees to be engaged
and provide this amazingservice, which if they are not
really identifying with thecompany that they work with, so
kind of thread the needle there.
How do you reconcile those twokind of thought processes you
(25:40):
have?
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
I think I can do it best bytelling a story.
So while I was working as abutler, again, this is the
beginning of my career, I had aregular guest who was never
happy.
He was just never happy with myservices.
He yelled all the time.
He was extremely difficult.
(26:01):
And one of the things that hewould do every night is he would
ask me to come to the room at 4o'clock exactly with a bowl of
warm mixed nuts.
And then he would say to me onone day, Kate, I don't want any
cashews.
And I would have to go back andpick out all the cashews.
And then the next day he'd say,you know, I really don't feel
(26:23):
like any almonds today, and Iwould have to go pick them all
out.
And it was so annoying, right?
I was really mad.
And I was in the back pickingout whatever it was he told me
to do.
He did the same thing with MMson a different trip.
And I finally realized thatactually what he wanted was to
feel powerful and important.
(26:45):
So I stopped kind of giving hima little attitude.
I started to actually addresshim the way he wanted to be
addressed and give him thecourtesy and the attention that
he needed.
And he was much nicer after thatand much happier.
The fact of the matter is I wasannoyed by his odd ways, his odd
(27:08):
behavior, but I learned not totake it personally.
So you um as a person who worksin service in the service
industry, you have to alwaysgive a lot of warmth, a lot of
caring.
You should care about yourguests, whether they're nice
people or not.
That's not the point.
But you should always protect apiece of your heart because the
(27:31):
guest is not going to have thatsame feeling towards you.
The company, companies change,they change heads, they change,
uh they change ownership, theychange even their methods.
You have to stay true and figureout what is right for you.
SPEAKER_00 (27:52):
One of your secret powers is teaching tangible,
effective tactics for individualemployees to increase sales, and
you've been mentioning thatthroughout the conversation.
So beyond training, how do youget employees at all levels
invested in the company'ssuccess and the bottom line?
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
Absolutely.
If you if you show an employeereal numbers, how much money,
for example, they made last yearin tips, and then you say, okay,
that was with an average checkof$60.
If you sold one extra item to aguest, an additional$20
(28:33):
appetizer, one additional$20glass of wine, you would have
made an additional$30,000 worthof tips.
They will do it.
So when you can show them onpaper exactly how the business
works and how they will be moresuccessful, then they definitely
(28:55):
are invested.
You also need to show them whatare the medalli scores, what are
the customer satisfaction scoresof their department.
I usually like to start offfirst by saying, what do you
think it is?
And they'll answer and then I'llsay, well, it's actually this
number here.
How could we get it to thathigher number?
(29:17):
And when you show them everysingle month what their number
is and they see that number growover time, they're getting
invested emotionally in thesuccess of the company.
So my favorite things to hearfrom employees that stay in
touch with me is I make moremoney because of what I learned
(29:40):
in our workshop, or I got apromotion after trying something
you taught me.
This is actually the reason whyI do what I do.
But honestly, for me, it's a joyto see employees start to take
control and take charge of theirown success, financial and
career success.
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
You know, this generation of the millennials
and the Gen Xers.
And sometimes we s feel thatthey don't even care, but you
bring the economic argumentthat, okay, if you care and if
you do what you're supposed todo, you're going to be making so
much more money.
SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
Trevor Burrus, Jr.: That's right.
You have to bring it back tothem.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Okay.
So looking back at the wealth ofexperience that you've
accumulated in the past 35years, what have you loved the
most about working inhospitality?
SPEAKER_01 (30:37):
Well, so again, we've been talking about it, but
hands down, I have loved meetingthe people who work in
hospitality, um, hearing theirstories, and uh and getting to
see them just grow their careerover time.
So I've worked with a lot offamous celebrities, and the
glamour of that is a lot of fun.
(30:59):
Um, but actually that's nowherenear as interesting as seeing
somebody um come to a newcountry, start their lives over
again, and sacrifice everythingthat they have so that their
families can have a better life.
To me, there's no greater joythan that.
Um then, of course, I also justreally love a well-executed
(31:23):
service.
So if there's a if there's abeautiful restaurant or an
amazing experience, um, thatmakes my heart sing too.
SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
What's your number one lesson, or what advice would
you give to aspiring hospitalityprofessionals such as the one
graduating from our school?
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
Aaron Powell Absolutely.
I I, you know, I have so muchfaith in this business.
And I first want to congratulatethem on making a great career
choice because it's anadventure.
But my biggest advice isprobably the one thing they
don't want to take.
And that is I say take your timeand learn the business and don't
(32:05):
be afraid to take an entry-leveljob in the beginning.
Um, if you want to managewaiters, many of whom are 30
years older than you are, youbetter know how to be a great
waiter.
And if you want to be in sales,start working as a catering
(32:26):
assistant and learn how awedding actually grows from the
beginning to the end of acontract.
And here's where a lot ofstudents will say, Arun, well,
then why'd I go to school,right?
College is expensive.
And I am very well aware ofthat.
I just paid for two sons'colleges.
But I will say that your collegedegree will help you move faster
(32:50):
through the ranks.
And there will come a time whenthat will be really important
that you have that degree.
Um, but in the beginning, youcan't make a mistake, just take
any job and start learning fromthere.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
Right.
And one of the things we do, werequire two internships here at
our school for undergraduatestudents, and each internship
has to be at least 300 hours.
And I always tell students thefirst internship that you're
doing has to be line level.
You cannot try to get into amanagement position.
You need to learn how to workwith people that you'll be
(33:24):
managing very soon.
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
Aaron Ross Powell Absolutely.
That's so valuable because I'veseen a lot of potentially great
managers burn out because theynever really learned or
understood the job that they'remanaging.
And then, of course, they're notgoing to be successful.
SPEAKER_00 (33:39):
Aaron Powell Right.
So let's um uh we have alightning round of questions,
but before that, um I think um Iwant to mention one thing that I
learned about you uh when we metlast time, which is that you are
in Boston one week a month, andthe other three weeks you're
traveling each week to adifferent luxury property,
(34:00):
sometimes resorts, sometimescities like Los Angeles you're
going, San Francisco and otherbeautiful cities of the world.
Uh that's incredible.
SPEAKER_01 (34:09):
You've made it.
Thank you.
Thanks very much.
Um It is the joy of my life totravel and to be in one company
in London one week and be inanother company in Los Angeles
the next week is really how youget that broad spectrum of
what's happening in theindustry.
(34:31):
So I feel very blessed, verylucky.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
Aaron Powell Do you get tired of traveling?
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Aaron Powell I really don't.
You don't.
No.
As soon as I am tired of it,I'll stop.
But I uh first of all, I'mstaying in beautiful hotels.
Yes.
So remember, I'm I'm spoiled.
But also uh the the fun of it,the the fun of seeing um going
to a property and then comingback a few months later and
(34:55):
seeing what they did with theinformation also keeps it going
and keeps it interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Okay.
So what's your favorite creaturecomfort when you're on the road?
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Aaron Ross Powell Yes.
Um I love a really light, airy,crisp duvet.
That's that's um just myfavorite thing in the world.
It's just being jet lagged,getting into bed, and uh that
will make me happy.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
Aaron Ross Powell And what's the best splurge when
you're traveling?
SPEAKER_01 (35:22):
Um I'll say business class.
Uh business class in theairplane, one of my favorite
tricks is to buy an economyticket.
And then when you go to theairport, always be well dressed,
go to the first class sectionand say uh how much would it be
for a business class upgrade?
And it's usually um 50 to 80percent off of the full price.
(35:47):
Um also a great massage is alsosomething I like to do.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
I would have imagined that with so much of
flying, you would have hadstatuses and a lot of miles to
upgrade for I have some greatpoints.
SPEAKER_01 (35:59):
I save them for when I'm traveling privately.
SPEAKER_00 (36:03):
What is the strangest request you've ever
gotten in your years of workingin hospitality?
SPEAKER_01 (36:08):
Aaron Ross Powell Hmm.
Um besides having to pick outcertain nuts, I will say uh
there's plenty of requests thatI can't tell you on the air, but
I will say we once had a primaballerina stay in a very large
presidential suite, and sherequested pillows to be placed
uh covering the entire floor.
(36:29):
And it was about a 2,000 squarefoot space.
So we had to every day fluff thepillows and put them down and
back out of the room so wewouldn't have our own
footprints.
SPEAKER_00 (36:39):
Wow.
Why did she want that?
Was she dancing on the pillows?
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
I didn't ask.
SPEAKER_00 (36:47):
Okay.
What is the most inhospitableword or expression?
SPEAKER_01 (36:53):
Oh, that's easy.
No.
Or uh no, sorry, right?
That flat, no, sorry, we don'tdo that.
Um, a robot bringing atoothbrush up at two in the
morning.
I think unfortunately, Arun,what's more likely to happen is
you call down for a toothbrushand they say, no, we don't have
that, sorry.
(37:14):
And they don't even bother tobring it up.
And um so so that just drives mecrazy.
Um, it's not that we never sayno to a guest.
As long as it's legal, moral,impossible, we find an
alternative.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Aaron Ross Powell I hope you don't encounter that
too much since luxury propertiesyou're staying in.
SPEAKER_01 (37:31):
Aaron Ross Powell You would be surprised.
Um you'd be surprised at uh youknow when there's no staffing,
right?
For example.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
Most hospitable word or expression.
SPEAKER_01 (37:43):
Also an easy one.
Um and it's also a great trickwhen wanting to diffuse an angry
guest.
The best phrase you can use isthank you.
And for.
So, for example, if a guest isangry with you, I teach uh in my
workshops to say, thank you forletting me know.
Thank you so much for theinformation.
(38:03):
I really appreciate you tellingme that.
Here's what I'm going to doabout it.
Thank you for choosing us.
Thank you for staying with us.
Thank you for bringing yourchildren here.
Anytime you say thank you, ittriggers a happier emotion and
it slows the guests down.
Um, but when you say thank youfor letting me know, it's so
much better than I wasn't awarethat was a problem.
(38:26):
And it's how you get somebody onyour side.
unknown (38:29):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
And and I think one of the phrases you mentioned,
um, and here is what I'm goingto do about it.
That's my pet.
I mean, that makes me veryhappy.
If there's a problem, I point itout, and someone says, okay, and
this is what I'm going to doabout it.
Otherwise, many times they justsay, Okay, thanks for letting me
know, and then promptly forgetabout it the moment you turn
your own.
(38:50):
It's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:51):
Absolutely.
You have to follow up.
SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
Kate, thank you for joining us and giving us all of
these insights about uh travel.
I think after listening to thepodcast, there might be many
people who might want to workwith you and be your assistants
while you're traveling.
Um, so thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (39:09):
Thank you very much.
Thanks for the opportunity andthanks for all the work you do.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
And thank you everyone for joining us today.
Special thanks to the team whoproduces this podcast, Bara
Littman, Andy Halleck, and theentire team at Boston University
School of HospitalityAdministration.
To keep up with DistinguishedPodcasts, be sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutour undergraduate and graduate
(39:36):
programs at Boston UniversitySchool of Hospitality
Administration by visitingbu.edu slash hospitality.
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