Restaurants are more than places to eat. They are where communities gather, cultures are shared, and everyday moments become lasting memories. But behind every restaurant is a complex reality, rising costs, workforce challenges, and shifting consumer expectations.
In this episode of The Distinguished, Dean Arun Upneja welcomes Jen Ziskin, Executive Director of Mass Restaurant United and co-owner of La Morra and Punchbowl in Brookline, MA. With a background in education, restaurant ownership, and statewide advocacy, Jen brings a rare perspective on what it takes to sustain independent hospitality.
They cover the wage gap between front and back of house, the fight against junk fee legislation, credit card processing fees on tips and taxes, immigration’s role in restaurant culture, real estate challenges, Gen Z dining shifts, tipping fatigue, mental health resources, and the promise and limits of AI in operations.
Email us at shadean@bu.edu
Learn more about Mass Restaurants United
The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.
Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations
Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu
Editing: Isabella Laikin
Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.
Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations
Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu
Marketing: Anne Dawson
Editing: Isabella Laikin and James Leon
Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
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SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Restaurants are more than places to eat.
They are where communitiesgather, where cultures are
shared, and where everydaymoments turn into lasting
memories.
But behind every restaurant is acomplex reality.
Owners balancing rising costs,workforce challenges, and
shifting consumer expectations,all while trying to preserve the
(00:26):
human connection that defineshospitality.
And increasingly, the future ofrestaurants is being shaped not
just inside the dining room, butthrough advocacy, community, and
leadership beyond it.
Today's guest sits at theintersection of all three.
Jen Ziskin is the executivedirector of Mass Restaurant
United, an organization foundedto support and advocate for
(00:49):
independent restaurants acrossMassachusetts.
She's also a restaurant ownerherself, co-owning La Mora in
Brookline, a belovedneighborhood restaurant, as well
as another concept within ashort walking distance, Punch
Bowl.
In addition, Jen is a leader inLet's Talk Women, a community
dedicated to supporting andadvancing women in hospitality.
(01:12):
With a background in educationand a deep commitment to
mentorship, Jen brings a uniqueperspective on leadership, one
that is grounded in community,resilience, and the belief that
restaurants are essential forhow we connect with one another.
I'm Arunapaneja, Dean of BostonUniversity School of
Hospitality, host today, and JenZiskin.
(01:33):
Welcome to the DistinguishedPodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Thank you for having me.
Excited to be here.
I always love being at BU.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Okay, so you are co-owner of a restaurant, as I
just mentioned.
And the longevity of therestaurant, I think you
established that in 2003.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
2003, so 22 years, but I always say it's like dog
years in the restaurantbusiness.
So I do make this joke a lot,but it's like a hundred years.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
Yeah, so so many years is is kind of.
So why don't you give us alittle bit of a background, your
background and your backgroundas a restaurant?
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
I always say yes, cut me off if you need to,
because it goes way back.
I started working in restaurantswhen I was 15 years old, you
know, started in the front ofthe house, busing, food running,
the gamut, moved to cocktailserving, bartending,
waitressing.
And then I went to school, wentto college, always worked during
college, but I always worked inrestaurants just to make money.
(02:31):
It wasn't necessarily like Iwanted to own a restaurant one
day.
I loved every minute of it.
I love that connection you have,that community that you have as
well.
And then when I graduatedcollege, I was trying to look
for something to do, didn't knowquite what I wanted to do.
So I was looking for a servingjob, stumbled into a place in
Concord, I Go Bistro.
(02:52):
They were not looking for aserver, they were looking for an
assistant manager.
And that's really where wherethe that's where the leadership
part of my career took off.
So started as an assistantmanager there, worked there,
ended up having to be thegeneral manager very soon after
becoming assistant managerbecause of some health issues
(03:13):
that were at the restaurant.
And then it just took off.
I'd started there and then wasdoing that for a while.
They opened a restaurant inConcord.
I mean, they opened a restaurantin Cambridge, decided to not
manage anymore because I reallyhad no background on managing.
But I always loved events andmarketing, so I started doing
(03:33):
outreach for them to help theirrestaurant take off with events.
And I worked there and thendecided I did not want to work
nights and weekends anymore.
Maybe I would go back to school.
And I ended up going back toschool for teaching.
And so then I taught.
Then I went back to school forteaching, got my graduate
(03:54):
degree, of course, worked inrestaurants, Cheonri, while I
was doing it.
Uh, worked at Campania inWaltham when they opened that
up, some really fabulousrestaurants at the time.
And then I went into teaching inBrookline and taught history for
seven years.
In the high school?
Um I was in the middle school.
Middle school.
Middle school, yes.
I was at the Baker School, lovedit.
(04:15):
I did a lot of that umrole-playing type of teaching.
We would reenact the roaring20s, really loved every minute
of it.
I had met my husband Josh, Ileft that out.
We met when I was maybe 21,right out of college, and our
moms were best friends back inthe day.
They grew up together,grandmothers fixed us up.
(04:36):
We have that total romance,romantic story.
We feel like we were an arrangedmarriage in many ways.
But he always wanted to open arestaurant since he was 15 years
old.
So after we got married, wemoved to Italy, and I had just
graduated Leslie University, sohad my graduate degree in
education, moved to Italy, heworked in a restaurant there,
(04:58):
and I nannyed for a wine family.
So I nannyed at a winery and didthat while we lived there.
We lived there for six monthsand learned all about wine.
I also was teaching English tosome actually famous winemakers
as well.
And then he was doing, um, hewas working in a restaurant, and
when we got home, um, it wasabout, I guess it was stopped
(05:21):
there for a moment.
That's a lot.
Do you want me to keep going?
But I can go with the and we hadour kids.
So wait, what one very, veryinteresting thing.
That's what I said, cut me offlong career.
SPEAKER_00 (05:32):
One very interesting thing that I heard was arranged
marriage.
Yeah.
Coming from India, that soundswonderful, fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
I I should not joke about that, but we do feel like
it's true.
So his um our grandmothers werebest friends, and I grew up in
Plymouth, Josh's mom grew up inPlymouth, my mom grew up in
Plymouth, and Josh grew up inBrookline.
So, but he would come home andhe would go to high holidays in
Plymouth.
So I always saw him at thetemple.
(06:01):
And later, after we graduatedcollege, he was working in
restaurants, I was working inrestaurants, so our grandmothers
said we had to meet each other.
And sure enough, we hit it off,and that was it.
We never dated another personsince.
SPEAKER_00 (06:14):
I love those grandmothers.
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
They're the best.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
They are the best, yep.
And and they did good.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
They sure did.
I mean, now 28 years old.
28 years later.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Yeah, they they they knew both of you, both the
grandmothers knew you.
Excellent.
Okay, so let's go back to therestaurants.
Um, so essentially, um uhacquisition costs for new
customers are usually muchhigher than retention.
So if you have somebody who'salready come and tried out your
restaurant, then it's mucheasier to get them to come back
again rather than try to getnew.
(06:46):
So with your with the longevityhistory that you have with your
restaurant, how do you do that?
How do you keep customers comingback to your restaurant again
and again?
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Um it's that's a great question.
It's consistency, it's feelinglike that, you know, that cheers
mentality, everybody knows yourname.
I used to take amazing notes inwhen we had open table, now we
have resie that would just tracktheir behavior and little
things, birthdays, children, andjust that little memory recall.
(07:16):
And now, I mean, my staff, theyit's a seamless the way they run
things is seamless.
They do such a great job.
They just make people feel athome.
We've always wanted to be a homeaway from home.
And it's all word of mouth.
We do not do any advertising.
So we do a lot of communitysupport, we do a lot of
donations for nonprofits for ourour guests, you know, for our
(07:39):
guests who reach out to us, butwe really do no advertising at
all.
I wish I were better at socialmedia too.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
Okay, so let's pivot a little bit with your other
role that you have.
Um, you are the executivedirector of Mass Restaurant
United.
So um, for those that areunfamiliar with this
organization, tell us a littlebit about what is MRU, what are
its aims and missions, and whatdoes it do?
SPEAKER_01 (08:03):
So um Mass Restaurant United was formed
during COVID to help independentrestaurants really survive
through COVID.
It was a group of chefs andrestaurateurs who got together
as our founding members.
And we have now grown over theyears in the past five years to
be a coalition that offersadvocacy, community, and
(08:25):
education to independentrestaurants all across
Massachusetts.
It's an amazing organization.
I want to highlight, first ofall, I mean, I always highlight
the advocacy, but the communityas well.
It just is so welcoming, and wedo these outreach events all
across Massachusetts to kind ofspread the word on how
important, as you had mentionedin the beginning, how important
(08:48):
independent restaurants are toour culture, our community, and
to our state as well, and to ourcountry.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
So uh, since this is a very new organization
established during the pandemic,five, six years, so what what
happened?
Why did the independentrestaurants feel the need to
have their own?
There are many otherorganizations that are
supporting restaurants.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Absolutely.
Um, so there's Mass RestaurantAssociation, which is a great
organization.
My restaurants have been a partof that for many years.
But there are different needswhen you have an independent
restaurant, a mom and pop-runtype of restaurant.
Often your needs align with whatchain restaurants or large food
(09:33):
service organizations mightneed.
But there is just this specialattention that's needed for
these independent restaurantsthat might be different, and
they don't always align.
So we really feel like thisseparate advocacy group is very
important for independentrestaurants.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
And it's all across Massachusetts?
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
Everywhere, yes.
And we've now done five outreachevents across Massachusetts, and
people are really getting toknow us and joining.
We doubled our membership in thelast year.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
How many members do you have now?
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Um so we have over 450 members.
We have over 2,000 followers andsubscribers, but we're really
working.
I think a lot of people thinkthat they're members because
they get our emails, they see uson social media, they come to
our amazing events.
But actually, our organizationis driven by membership, and
we're really hoping to convertall of those subscribers to be
(10:28):
members.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
Well, there might be some subscribers to your emails
that are just, you know, theylove restaurants and they are
supporters or they're allies.
So, but 450 restaurants, that'sthat's that's a very good
achievement.
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
450 members.
Members.
So we don't have to be able todo that.
There's some allies and buyersand so forth.
Exactly.
And now what we've done is anoutreach to our the employees as
well.
And we have a workers' advocacycommittee as part of the
organization because it is thebig picture.
I mean, during the pandemic, itwas like we just needed these
restaurants to survive, so itwas very owner-centric.
(11:05):
But now we're moving past that,and we need to look at the whole
picture and really the ethos ofthe restaurant business, and
that's incredibly important tous.
So we really want that workers'advocacy voice to be part of it.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
So, since you mentioned workers' advocacy as
well, let's talk about whathappened a couple of years ago
with uh with the famous questionnumber five on the ballot.
Um, so in Massachusetts, um, weall know that the tips cannot be
shared with back of the house,and the servers, those who are
getting tips, they are gettingpaid from the employer a wage
(11:43):
that is less than the minimumwage with the expectation that
they will make that up in thetips, and if they don't make up,
the employer is responsible.
But that um that campaign, whichfailed, by the way, I'm sure,
thanks to in part to youradvocacy, strong advocacy.
Yeah.
Um, but that kind of didhighlight the the difference
between the total hourlyearnings at the front of the
(12:05):
house and back of the house.
So, how do independentrestaurants try to take care of
that gap?
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
We are struggling.
It is, you know, it is really achallenging question that we are
talking about every day andevery time we meet in this
committee because the majorproblem is running an
independent restaurant now, thenumbers are not working, and the
pie is only so big.
(12:34):
So the only way that we can makethis work is to charge an
exorbitant amount for our menu.
And I know it seems like an easysolution to just raise the
prices, but the amount you haveto raise to be able to
compensate the front of thehouse and the back of the house
the same, that's saying aboutprobably$40 an hour,$50.
(12:54):
Many restaurants, you know, thefront of the house is making
even a lot more than that.
You just would have to increaseyour prices to, you know,$150 a
menu item.
I don't even, I haven't done themath.
It's just, it's not realistic.
Unfortunately, it's how ourbusiness model was created based
on the way we are paying thefront of the house and the back
(13:15):
of the house.
And I mean, even just in theevolution of Lamora, we started
at$263 an hour for tippedemployees and probably$15.16 an
hour for restaurant, you know,for the um kitchen employees,
and that's and you know,probably entry level.
And now it's$675 for tippedemployees.
I mean, that's a big increase.
(13:36):
I know it's been 20 years, butyou can only increase your
prices so much.
And then back of the house to becompetitive now, it's$20,$30.
So it's just the numbers aren'tworking.
There has to be some sort ofshift.
We had a great idea during thepandemic to charge a like a um
kitchen appreciation fee.
(13:57):
And a lot of people really likedthat and embraced it.
I would say we did we did do itat LaMora.
And in the time we did it atLaMora, and that started during
COVID, so in four years, maybetwo people asked to have it
removed.
I mean, it was very transparenton the menu, on our website, on
the receipt, but and peopleloved it and they would even
give more.
(14:18):
But now new legislation has comeabout where there's this junk
fee legislation, so you can'tcharge an admin fee or a kitchen
appreciation fee.
It has to be rolled into yourmenu prices.
Well, now your gratuity goes up.
So the front of the house, ifyou do add it into your menu
prices, which we have done, thefront of the house is still
(14:39):
making more because they'remaking the gratuity.
So it's it's just this viciouscycle, and we are working really
hard.
We're open to many ideas.
We're trying to hear from chefs,from dishwashers, from
garmanger, what is the solution?
And they really understand thatthe pie is only so big as well.
SPEAKER_00 (14:58):
Right.
Very interesting that thekitchen appreciation view also
got caught up in the junk feecategory.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
Yeah, there I mean, there really just seems to be
something against being able tocompensate the kitchen other
than you know an hourly wage,which we we we do.
Again, like it's just so if thenwe changed it to be the same
wage for the front of the houseand the back of the house, it
would be you would have to lowertheir wage to be able to
(15:26):
compensate for the front of thehouse to make the same that
they're making, but they're notgoing to stay because that's not
they can go elsewhere.
I mean, they could go elsewhere,it's just it's just not what
they're used to.
Um, and I think it's just theculture, and I don't know if
there's going to at one at somepoint be, you know, a an
explosion of what the cultureis.
(15:46):
I d I don't know.
Um, but it is across thecountry, and I just don't know
how we can still get the amazinghospitality that is in our blood
without having the tippingculture.
But i there could be a solutionout there.
I don't want to say there isn't.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Okay.
Um so now let's talk aboutduring the pandemic there was
um, since people, you know, uhcould not go to restaurants, so
these third-party deliverycompanies started and and they
were charging a lot of fees, andI don't know that you worked on
the advocacy to cap those fees.
Those gaps have gone away now,and those fees have risen.
(16:25):
So now we have to think of acouple of different things.
One is the survivability, theprofitability of the independent
restaurants, you have thethird-party apps, they also are
going to need money need to makemoney.
Um, and then you have the thisyounger generation which thinks
of this as a utility.
They just sit in order.
So, how do we, what do you thinkin the long term is going to
(16:48):
happen to these three competingforces?
SPEAKER_01 (16:51):
It's tricky because we do understand, even with
credit card companies, weunderstand they need to charge
processing fees.
It makes sense.
But in Massachusetts, we'readvocating for the fact that we
are paying processing fees ontax and gratuity.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
Why can't you then, at least for the gratuities
part, and I know that you're notallowed to, but you know, that's
what people will think.
Why can't you just deduct thecredit card rate before handing
out the gratuity to the staff?
SPEAKER_01 (17:21):
Because you're not allowed to.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
You're not allowed to.
SPEAKER_01 (17:23):
I mean, for one reason, you're not allowed to.
It's and again, it's not part ofthe culture.
So it's like if you're doingthese things that uh that isn't
part of the culture, sure, ifyou're a brand new restaurant
when you're hiring people, or ifyou bring on new people, that
could be something you could,you know, bring into the
conversation.
But your staff that you've hadfor seven, eight years, like I'm
(17:45):
fortunate enough to have staffthat have been there, and all of
a sudden I said, Oh, by the way,I'm gonna deduct 3% from your
tips every week.
So that's one thing.
And then as far as processingfees in general, it's not
allowed in our state.
So that is another thing we'readvocating for.
You can't put the processing feeon a client using a credit card
in Massachusetts, you can't putthat back on the client.
(18:07):
That being said, it's not aneasy road to do either.
Like if you're if everybody didit, sure, that's not a problem.
But if one restaurant and thentheir next door neighbor doesn't
charge processing fees, it'sjust not going to, it's not
hospitable.
It's not who we are.
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Right.
Also, very interesting that thecredit card companies know what
the tip is.
They necessarily may not knowthe tax part because you know,
beverages and food items are alltaxed at different rates.
So with that one amount, theydon't know how much of that is
taxed and how much is notuntaxed is going to you, but
(18:42):
they know the tips because thatis a separate line item.
So if the credit card companiesdid want to cooperate with you,
they could they a thousandpercent could, and a a lot of
processors are point of salesystems too.
SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
So they do understand and they can they can
set up the point of sale to lineitem it as well.
It's possible.
We have the technology.
Um well in this in the state ofMassachusetts, right now you
can't, so there are certainthings.
But I guess yes, the processorscould reduce the fees.
You're right, that is true.
Or eliminate it or get them onour side.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Okay, so um another thing, another big win that you
had was um removing the U.S.
citizenship requirement from uhalcohol license managers, so
those managers who are managingthis.
So why did you do this and whatdoes it mean in the long run?
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
So I wasn't part of Mass Restaurant United at the
time.
I had just um I was coming ontothe board right after that, but
the whole process was going onwhile I was on the board, and I
am just so proud of us for doingthat because I think so.
A manager who works in arestaurant doesn't own the
restaurant, they're justmanaging the restaurant.
(19:58):
If they didn't have citizenship,they couldn't be the manager of
record on the license.
So you're you're they are therethe the most amount of time, so
many owners would just stay asthe the owner on that license
because the manager couldn't.
But it really wasn't followingall the rules in that respect.
So many non-citizens aremanagers and they're able, they
(20:22):
have their legal, uh, they'relegal working employees, but
they weren't allowed to be themanager of records.
So it was just a win in so manyways.
For one, the humanistic value ofit for me is the most important.
It's why I'm advocating for ourimmigrant families so much.
But also just the fact that manypeople didn't even know that
(20:42):
that was an issue or that wasnot allowed.
So it was a no-brainer.
Of course, we would have ourmanagers as the manager of
records.
So I think that it was just anadvocacy that needed to be done,
and you need to get the wordout.
And it was, like I said, thehumanistic thing to do, but also
the economic and also justproper, I can't think of the
(21:03):
word, but like a proper thingfor correct employment
practices, because there's a lotof rules that go into managing a
liquor license, and you want tobe sure you're following all the
rules.
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Right.
Okay, so you mentioned thisearlier when I asked you about
MRU versus other organizations.
Um, commercial real estate costscontinue to increase and rise
dramatically all over.
Um, anywhere you know you go andyou look at urban centers, you
see genification of them, youknow, you see all these national
restaurants.
Whereas I love to see local uhcommunity help people who are
(21:37):
living in the community, youknow, do those restaurants.
But if you have a 30 seat localbistro competing against a well
funded national group for thesame um corner, you know, lot,
what kind of policy change ortax change or what kind of
change do you think is going tomake the most difference to make
(21:59):
that low?
Restaurant owner or a bistro becompetitive against these deep
funded places?
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
It's the biggest challenge that we're facing is
real estate and rent and theprice of rent and going into
like you know these amazingplaces like Legacy Place or the
street.
And, you know, I think one thinggetting the teamwork from the
developers, like WS Development,our allied members of Mass
(22:29):
Restaurant United, and they'retrying to think of creative ways
to help the independentrestaurateur.
And I think for Mass RestaurantUnited, we have to spread the
word on what these high rentsmean.
There's a lot of like sharedpartnership rents, and you could
be more of like an interestbased on profit.
Don't tell them that sometimesit's a nonprofit uh situation,
(22:53):
especially with the numbersright now.
But having some sort of reliefon rent would help our
independent restaurants probablythe most.
I will say, like at Lamora, weown our building.
We're really fortunate.
And I would give the advice toany independent restaurateur, if
you have the opportunity to opena restaurant and own the real
(23:14):
estate, that's a it's a win-win.
It can be a struggle and reallyhard, but in the end, it just
will it will create so muchrelief in the long run that
you're not just doling out thatmoney for rent.
So I think cooperation with ourcooperation with our landlords,
and then more opportunity to beable to buy real estate for
(23:38):
restaurants, which is the key tosurvival of independent
restaurants.
Because I mean, you want to havethese smaller run non-chain
places.
There's just so much community,and not to say that chains don't
have community and heart andgreat hospitality because they
do.
I love many of our restaurantsthat have multiple locations,
(23:58):
but there's something to be saidfor that husband and wife team
or wife team, and you know,there's just something to be
said for that, the heart ofthose independent restaurants.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
So um I'm just wondering, um, you know, for
example, in terms of when I knowin the city of Boston, if if any
developer comes with a proposalto create, let's say,
apartments, uh, city has somerequirement that they have to be
X percent that are rentcontrolled.
I wonder if something similar,analogous could happen where
(24:32):
there's a developer makingdevelopment and you know, 20% of
stores or space has to belocally, you know, non-chain
kind of, so that you know youhave a possibility of getting
some relief on the rent.
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting concept.
I'm not going to say I'm anexpert in this field.
I just recently joined Chapa,who's working really hard for
affordable housing, and it'svery important for the
restaurant industry because youwant your employees to be able
to live in the communities thatthey serve or near and not an
hour and a half away.
(25:06):
I mean, it's um we're not evenasking for much.
We're just even to have publictransportation that's again not
an hour and a half away.
But so I think affordablehousing is incredibly important,
and advocating for it isimportant.
Again, like I'm not aneconomist, I don't know how we
can make it happen.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
Right, but what I was saying was uh in a similar
fashion, if you if you requireany development to have 20% or
any X percent stores that arelocally owned rather than
chains.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
I think that's a great idea.
I think it's a move in the rightdirection.
Again, they can only afford itif you give them the funding.
I think grants are amazing.
They helped us survive thepandemic and most restaurants as
well that were able to lean ongrants, even like$5,000 grants.
Because, you know, there's alsothis whole dispute about rent
(26:01):
control in itself.
So we have to be careful how wego about that.
I think you have to make it away that it's not funded.
Even the landlords, I mean, howare we going to be able, how are
they gonna be able to afford abuilding if they can't charge
rent?
I mean, this we're all inbusiness.
We all need to at least breakeven at this point.
So there just needs to be somesort of either grants or funding
(26:24):
or low, low, low, low interestloans available to be able to do
something like that.
I think it's a great idea, butwe have to make sure we put the
foundation into place so thenyou don't have empty storefronts
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
Right.
Okay, so let's move on to diningbehavior and Gen C.
So the first thing I want totalk about is uh, you know, in
the old days you would havesomething known as a bar tab.
So people would leave theircredit cards or they would say,
okay, put it on my tab, and theywould be keeping a running tab.
Uh but now in this generation,people are actually, you know,
(26:58):
doing more transactions.
Okay, they'll order, pay itright away.
So, what does that do to the umto the social atmosphere of a
tavern or the bar or whereverthey are?
How does that change the flow ofconversations or you know, the
social situation?
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Um, well, I'm the whole the put it on my tab thing
might have just been in themovies, at least.
Oh, okay.
I don't know if it would be likea would that be a running tab
like for days?
Or or at least for the wholeevening.
In the evening, people I peopleare still doing that.
So we have the capabilities.
You can what's great now is youcan swipe your card and then I
(27:36):
mean they have all theinformation in our point of sale
system, so you can continue togo back to the bars.
So I do see that.
Um, as far as like things beingmore transactional with the
younger generation, I don'tthink I think we still have a
bar scene or a community.
I think the the situation now,and I'm not going to call it an
issue because it's not an issue,it's fairly wonderful, but
(27:59):
people are drinking less, andthe younger generation is
drinking less, that that couldbe affecting the you know, the
bar scene more than the factthat they're not um running
tabs.
I think they're just notdrinking as much.
And I think that um, you know,that it is a worry because a lot
of profit is made on alcohol,but I think they're also
(28:22):
exploratory too, and they'reexploring mocktails, and we have
lots of non-alcoholic optionsthat they're exploring as well.
And like I said, I don't want tosay drinking less is a bad
thing.
I think moderation is perfect,yeah.
But I also feel like it's alittle bit of a trend, and you
know, I I think for the way oursociety has been built, I mean,
(28:43):
wine to me, I'm Assam, so it'svery important.
And there's just so muchconversation and culture around
that as well, that I I don'twant that to be lost forever.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
But yeah, and that's exactly what I was gonna ask
you, being a Somalier.
Um, you know, people aregravitating more towards these
ready to uh drink drinks, youknow, straight out of open up a
can, you know, put it in.
Um even the wines are much moreuh to some extent approachable,
and so that must bother you tosome extent.
SPEAKER_01 (29:14):
Yeah, I mean it is it's hard, it really is.
Um I feel very fortunate at LaMora that we have, you know,
it's really authentic Italianfood and we only have Italian
wine.
So when people come, they wantto experience the wine and
really delve into it.
But I will say at Punchball, Ihave this all-female, wonderful
wine list of female owners,winemakers, vineyard managers,
(29:38):
and it's more of theready-to-drink cocktail scene,
beer scene, wines by the glassscene, because it's a hotel and
people aren't necessarily uhthere, you know, to experience
our wine list, although they do.
Now and again, I won't say theydon't experience the wine list.
I think that um also withtravel, like people aren't
(30:00):
traveling as much.
They are starting, or they wereuntil this year, starting to
travel more.
And I I do feel like we'll getthis back, like especially the
experience you have with wine inother countries, and then they
come back and they want to havethat wine, they want to have
that wine they had in Portugalor Italy Italy or Australia.
So I I hope it's a trend.
(30:22):
I think it's a trend.
I do think it'll come backbecause, you know, especially
with my background and what Ihave learned and the community
I've built in the wine world, Iwould that would be devastating
if that went away.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Right.
Okay, so um uh in this day andage of remote work, we have this
a lot of people want to go into,you know, they're working from
home, they want to go into cafesand restaurants and spend their
time in the in a in a in thatsetting to spend.
At the same time, as anindependent restaurant owner,
any restaurant owner, you havethis concept of table turnover.
(30:59):
So you want certain X amount ofrevenue.
So, how do you think that we'regonna balance the need for a
third place for the youngprofessionals versus the need
for table turnover and X amountof revenue?
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Um, I actually think we're suffering from table
turnover more because people aregoing out earlier and not later.
And so the you might have thosetables available at 8 and 8:30,
9 o'clock, but there's notnecessarily a late night crowd,
and I have and I really attestthat to remote work in some
(31:32):
ways, because when you're homeand like you said, you know,
it's like five o'clock or sixo'clock, you're ready to start
talking to people and seeingpeople, so you're going out
earlier.
And I don't know if it's just mygeneration, but I am seeing
people going out so much earlierand not necessarily staying out
later.
And I think if the you know thekids these days are going out
(31:54):
later, they want to kind of goback to where where they live in
that area and not necessarilysit in a restaurant or go sit,
go out to eat at nine, 10o'clock.
But that's just what I'm seeinga bit.
I think turnover is reallyimportant, but at least you
know, for higher-endrestaurants, it's the most
important thing if you havesomeone who's there for a longer
(32:15):
period of time, you know, justto ensure that they're they're
eating and having some nice winewith their meal also is very
valuable.
unknown (32:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Um we we briefly talked about this uh earlier
about the tipping and how thatimpacts the total compensation.
But uh what has happened um,particularly since COVID, um,
pretty much every place whereyou're paying is now asking for
tips, or you know, they'llswitch the iPad around and say,
okay, how much do you want totip?
Even if it is counter-service,even if you're going and serving
(32:47):
yourself.
Um so there is some sort of atipping fatigue that there is in
people.
So, how do we go and tell peopleabout the importance of tipping
and and the role that it playsin the compensation in the
restaurant sector versus allthese other places that are now
adding it?
SPEAKER_01 (33:05):
It's again, like, I wish I had the answers for that.
I know being a restaurateur andgrowing up in this industry, if
somebody flips the screen and ithas a tip percentage, I tip them
because I I just feel like, ohmy gosh, maybe they're not being
compensated, and maybe they'renot.
I mean, I don't, I do thinkretail is almost, you know,
(33:25):
almost as hard as runningrestaurants and also really hard
to pay your employees what theydeserve to work in retail.
Same with even you know, fastservice and counter service.
I don't think that they'remaking$30,$40 an hour.
So I always think about thatwhen I am tipping, that they
probably do deserve the extra,the extra tip.
(33:48):
I do feel like our culture istip fatigued, but again, like if
you have great service, why not?
I mean, why not give somebody atip?
But I I don't think everybodyfeels that way.
And you know, sure, in therestaurant industry they are
paid$675, where someone else ispaid.
The minimum wage is$17 an hour.
And that too is not a lot ofmoney.
(34:09):
So if you're making minimumwage, having an extra gratuity
is is okay as well.
SPEAKER_00 (34:16):
Okay, so let's uh move to another topic that
you're very familiar with, whichis the mental health and burnout
issue.
Uh you have the Round theRegions tour.
Um for students who areconsidering a career in this
industry.
You know, when I grew up and Iwas in the industry, 60, 70, 80
hours was pretty common.
Um but now people are lookingfor quality of life and balance
(34:40):
between work and and and life aswell.
So how do you is wellness evenpossible in our industry?
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
1000% it is possible.
And it it should just bestandard.
And I do feel like I mean, Igrew up in the front of the
house, you know, doing being aserver, as I mentioned.
And, you know, I would go home,I come home from college and I
would be so excited.
I worked a triple yesterday, Iworked breakfast, lunch, and
(35:08):
dinner.
That had nothing to do with therestaurant, and it had nothing
to do with what they asked ofme.
That was because I was home forfive days and I needed to make
my entire semester of money inthose five days.
So I think there's this, youknow, there's there are two
sides to the story as well.
However, I there areexpectations, and especially in
(35:29):
ownership and management, thatyou honestly are working
sometimes 24-7.
And it's just not feasible.
And but it I do also think it'sthe responsibility, especially
of the owner, but also of themanagement team, to check
themselves too, and the and thekitchen team to make sure that
(35:50):
they're still doing their joband meeting expectations, but
they're not working these insanehours.
And I but I do think a lot ofpeople in our industry bring it
on to themselves.
I'm not saying everybody,because I know there are
expectations in restaurants thatrequire people to work more than
they should.
Mental health is so important,and our industry now offers so
(36:13):
many resources, and thanks toBoston University as well, they
have a program with SouthernSmoke, which is out of Texas,
and they Southern Smoke funds agrant that offers free mental
health support to thehospitality industry.
You only have to have worked, Ithink it's six months, for a
(36:34):
restaurant to qualify.
And it's not just mental healthsupport, it's also if you're in
a, God forbid you're in a caraccident and you're out of work
for three weeks, they'll helppay your wages.
If you have to have anoperation, they'll help pay you
for that time.
And there are many otherorganizations like Southern
Smoke that I'm learning aboutnow across the country.
(36:54):
And the exciting thing is MassRestaurant United is partnering
with them and we're joiningother coalitions that we can all
band together to get the wordout because many people don't
know.
I mean, we had Southern Smoke,Chris Shepard, the founder, at
our breaking boundaries andhospitality event last year.
It was one of the best panels.
Everybody was saying, like, Ihad no idea they existed.
(37:16):
So we're we're thankful toBoston University for partnering
with them.
And there are many otherprograms out there that offer
the same support.
And also like Samaritans inBoston.
Did you know there was a thingyou dial 988 if you want to talk
to someone?
I did not know that.
Um, and everybody should knowabout 988.
I just had a call with themrecently, and Michael from
(37:39):
Samaritans was saying to me, hesaid, it's not necessarily
because you know you're havingsuicidal thoughts.
It's just you might just needsomeone to talk to.
And it it could be aboutanything.
He said, they get people who arejust a little lonely, but they
man these phones 24-7.
They have a huge phone power andvolunteer support, so they're
(38:00):
able to.
So 988 is the number.
And I we're just also workinghard to get that the word out.
Someone from Samaritans will bespeaking at our conference this
June as well.
SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
Looking ahead, what do you see as some of the
biggest challenges facing uhlocal restaurants or rather
independent restaurants?
I know you've talked about someof them.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Yeah, I mean, I really do think the
profitability is the biggestchallenge, and it's the entire
ecosystem of that, all the wayfrom agriculture, all the way to
you know what is happening withlabor and um processing fees.
So I think economically that'sour biggest challenge.
Immigration is is huge, and it'sa right now, especially because
(38:44):
we are an industry that wasbuilt on immigrants.
And I mean, I I can name like somany of my employees that came
from other countries, and I justdon't know how we could survive
without their heart and soul aspart of our industry.
So I think advocating for ourimmigrant families is really
(39:05):
important.
Other challenges, I think alsojust education.
I think being able to have it bean industry with upward mobility
is important.
The pathways, so manyrestaurants, like I've spoken
here at Boston University andtalk to your students, it's one
of my favorite things to do.
It's the teacher and me forsure.
(39:26):
I look at the classroom andthey, you know, say, you know,
how can I open a restaurant?
How can I own a restaurant?
I always say to them, the mostimportant thing is that you've
worked in a restaurant andideally worked in every aspect
of that restaurant.
I'm at a disadvantage.
I never worked in the kitchen,they won't let me.
I just set the fire alarm offthe other night in the kitchen.
(39:46):
Um, but I wish I had, even just,you know, and I wish I should
still.
I shouldn't say I wish I had.
It's not too late.
But try to work in every aspectof the industry because I think
that's the most important.
So when I say education, I alsothink for Mass Restaurant United
and our independent restaurants,workforce development is so
(40:08):
important.
It's something we're reallytrying to foster, like having
partnerships with BostonUniversity, with Root North
Shore, with future chefs, allthese organizations who are
working towards the nextgeneration of hospitality
leaders.
That's very important to us, andI hope we will be able to offer
(40:29):
those educational classes withthese partnerships in the future
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
Um yeah, I the working in the kitchen, that's
an excellent point.
I remember a long time ago,probably 42 years ago, but when
I first started my job, it wasnine months I had to spend in
the kitchen.
So every aspect of the kitchen.
And I still remember some ofthose days, uh, some of the
things that I did there.
Um, though I don't go into thekitchen a whole lot.
(40:57):
It's pretty dangerous there.
Okay, one question before we umgo to the lightning round.
So um the question is about AI.
With all the things you havementioned, um the labor
challenges and the costs ofeverywhere.
I'm wondering, um, curious toknow, are you using AI in any
way to help you in restaurantoperations?
SPEAKER_01 (41:18):
I see it, so for me personally, I see AI working for
me with um like Instagram,marketing, things that kind of
route I could see.
Again, I wish I had time todelve more into it because I do
really see the benefits of itand the ability to use it in
that respect.
(41:40):
I know that a lot of our umpoint of sale systems,
reservation systems, all ofthose systems are incorporating
AI.
And as the ED of MRU, I'membracing those companies and
learning so much of what they'reable to do.
Inventory control ordering.
I think embracing AI in thoserespects will be so important.
(42:05):
I think at some point we won'thave to count inventory.
You'll still have to countinventory, sadly, because there
is still theft.
But you will, it'll be a muchmore seamless process.
Even just looking at, you know,year to year your PLs from year
to year.
I think using AI to decipherthose PLs for you.
And also I know um Eli Feldman,who he's also he's on our board,
(42:29):
but I think he teaches herepotentially, or I know he, I
don't know if he doesn't.
SPEAKER_00 (42:33):
So he used to teach here before the pandemic, and
then pandemic he said, I've gotto make the restaurant survive.
So but now we are getting him towork with our students on some
AI-related stuff as well.
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
He's my Eli's my AI guru.
Yes.
And I know that I've readarticles that he's written, you
know, working with toast and thetoast point of sale system and
ways to incorporate it on howyou set up your menu, how you
set up your line, who's workingwhich station.
You know, I always know likewhen I plan events, we can't
have more than two pastas onthat event menu, or that pasta
(43:06):
chef's gonna get killed if youhave a 50-person event.
So you just have to be reallyconscious.
And I think AI has, I know Eli'sreally learned a lot from AI
with that.
I think also there's this wholeother flip side about AI as
well, that um hospitality ishuman and we don't want to lose
that human touch.
Even the fact that I can't callmany restaurants makes me crazy
(43:31):
that no one's answering thephone.
Even during, you know, evenafter two o'clock or three
o'clock or four o'clock, they'rejust not answering the phone.
Because AI is doing eitheranswering the phone or or they
just direct you to theirwebsite.
Right.
And I know for a fact, like youcan sometimes find that extra
table, or a table might finishearlier.
And if you don't see thereservation or you don't call
(43:53):
and just get on some sort oflist, you won't know.
So those kind of um like thosethat non Human touch, especially
with the phone and with likethat, that part of planning and
execution of events, I thinkneeds to be human.
And then your table serviceagain.
I just I never thought therewould be a world that
restaurants weren't relevant.
(44:15):
I always like, we're we're good.
You know, maybe not ourrestaurant, but we're not going
to have a world whererestaurants aren't important.
And then we had the pandemic,and you're like, oh, okay, like
we might get shut down for areason.
I never thought that waspossible.
So now that we've seen thatpossibility, we need to be
careful to make sure that thathuman touch continues and
(44:35):
hospitality, that mentality ofhospitality continues because
it's in many people's blood, butit's not in everybody's blood.
And it's so important toindependent restaurants, but
just restaurants in general.
unknown (44:49):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (44:50):
Um good news, we are at the end, but I have um a few
more quick questions, shortanswers, no overthinking.
Okay.
Your non-negotiable morningcoffee order.
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
My non-negotiable morning coffee order.
Oh, um, iced coffee.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Black coffee.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Iced black coffee, no room, no sweetener.
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Uh this next one might be a little hard.
Italy or Portugal, which is yourultimate soulmate travel
destination?
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
Okay, Italy for sure.
I mean it's it's fairly even,but Italy, I have to say.
So many visits.
SPEAKER_00 (45:26):
Yeah, both are beautiful destinations.
SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Red, white, or bubbly.
What is your class at the end ofa long shift?
SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
Uh it's white.
I do.
I love my Willamette Chardonnayor my friend Chardonnay, I do
admit.
SPEAKER_00 (45:38):
The one entry-level restaurant job, every young
professional, every youngprofessional should do at least
once.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Hostessing.
SPEAKER_00 (45:47):
Hostessing, okay.
Your hidden talent or hobby thathas nothing to do with food or
wine?
SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
Skiing.
SPEAKER_00 (45:55):
Skiing.
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
Okay.
I mean, I let me redo that.
Hidden talent?
What do you mean on?
That's hobby.
Um that's a hobby, okay.
Okay.
Hidden talent, I'm raisingfuture service dogs right now.
Oh wow.
And that is the talent, and it'smy new passion.
SPEAKER_00 (46:13):
Fantastic.
One word to describe the futureof independent restaurants in
Brookline.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Community.
unknown (46:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
Keep coming.
Keep coming.
Okay.
Keep coming.
Community passion.
SPEAKER_00 (46:26):
So, Jen, thank you for such a thoughtful and a
meaningful conversation.
I really, really enjoyed it, andI hope that a lot of people are
listening and they come andenjoy the restaurants.
So, restaurants are not justbusinesses, they are the fabric
of the communities.
And leaders like you are helpingto ensure that they continue to
thrive and not just throughgreat food and service, but
(46:48):
through advocacy, connection,and purpose as well.
So thank you for coming on thepodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (46:53):
Thank you for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
If you would like to join the conversation or share
your thoughts on this episode,you can email me at shawdean at
bu.edu.
That is s-h-a-d-en-.
Thank you to the entire team atBU School of Hospitality.
This episode was produced byMara Littman with research and
content development by Dr.
Lan Lu, ably assisted by AlexDeenst and Isabella Lakin.
(47:20):
To keep up with theDistinguished, be sure to
subscribe wherever you listen toyour favorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutexperience innovation in our
undergraduate and graduateprograms by visiting BU.edu
slash hospitality.
I'm Arunupneja, Dean of BUSchool of Hospitality, wishing
you many happy meals, wonderfulcompany, and a bit of extra
(47:44):
patience for the hardworkingteams in our favorite local
restaurants.
Happy dining.
Restaurants are more than places to eat.
They are where communitiesgather, where cultures are
shared, and where everydaymoments turn into lasting
memories.
But behind every restaurant is acomplex reality.
Owners balancing rising costs,workforce challenges, and
shifting consumer expectations,all while trying to preserve the
(00:26):
human connection that defineshospitality.
And increasingly, the future ofrestaurants is being shaped not
just inside the dining room, butthrough advocacy, community, and
leadership beyond it.
Today's guest sits at theintersection of all three.
Jen Ziskin is the executivedirector of Mass Restaurant
United, an organization foundedto support and advocate for
(00:49):
independent restaurants acrossMassachusetts.
She's also a restaurant ownerherself, co-owning La Mora in
Brookline, a belovedneighborhood restaurant, as well
as another concept within ashort walking distance, Punch
Bowl.
In addition, Jen is a leader inLet's Talk Women, a community
dedicated to supporting andadvancing women in hospitality.
(01:12):
With a background in educationand a deep commitment to
mentorship, Jen brings a uniqueperspective on leadership, one
that is grounded in community,resilience, and the belief that
restaurants are essential forhow we connect with one another.
I'm Arunapaneja, Dean of BostonUniversity School of
Hospitality, host today, and JenZiskin.
(01:33):
Welcome to the DistinguishedPodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Thank you for having me.
Excited to be here.
I always love being at BU.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Okay, so you are co-owner of a restaurant, as I
just mentioned.
And the longevity of therestaurant, I think you
established that in 2003.
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
2003, so 22 years, but I always say it's like dog
years in the restaurantbusiness.
So I do make this joke a lot,but it's like a hundred years.
SPEAKER_00 (01:59):
Yeah, so so many years is is kind of.
So why don't you give us alittle bit of a background, your
background and your backgroundas a restaurant?
SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
I always say yes, cut me off if you need to,
because it goes way back.
I started working in restaurantswhen I was 15 years old, you
know, started in the front ofthe house, busing, food running,
the gamut, moved to cocktailserving, bartending,
waitressing.
And then I went to school, wentto college, always worked during
college, but I always worked inrestaurants just to make money.
(02:31):
It wasn't necessarily like Iwanted to own a restaurant one
day.
I loved every minute of it.
I love that connection you have,that community that you have as
well.
And then when I graduatedcollege, I was trying to look
for something to do, didn't knowquite what I wanted to do.
So I was looking for a servingjob, stumbled into a place in
Concord, I Go Bistro.
(02:52):
They were not looking for aserver, they were looking for an
assistant manager.
And that's really where wherethe that's where the leadership
part of my career took off.
So started as an assistantmanager there, worked there,
ended up having to be thegeneral manager very soon after
becoming assistant managerbecause of some health issues
(03:13):
that were at the restaurant.
And then it just took off.
I'd started there and then wasdoing that for a while.
They opened a restaurant inConcord.
I mean, they opened a restaurantin Cambridge, decided to not
manage anymore because I reallyhad no background on managing.
But I always loved events andmarketing, so I started doing
(03:33):
outreach for them to help theirrestaurant take off with events.
And I worked there and thendecided I did not want to work
nights and weekends anymore.
Maybe I would go back to school.
And I ended up going back toschool for teaching.
And so then I taught.
Then I went back to school forteaching, got my graduate
(03:54):
degree, of course, worked inrestaurants, Cheonri, while I
was doing it.
Uh, worked at Campania inWaltham when they opened that
up, some really fabulousrestaurants at the time.
And then I went into teaching inBrookline and taught history for
seven years.
In the high school?
Um I was in the middle school.
Middle school.
Middle school, yes.
I was at the Baker School, lovedit.
(04:15):
I did a lot of that umrole-playing type of teaching.
We would reenact the roaring20s, really loved every minute
of it.
I had met my husband Josh, Ileft that out.
We met when I was maybe 21,right out of college, and our
moms were best friends back inthe day.
They grew up together,grandmothers fixed us up.
(04:36):
We have that total romance,romantic story.
We feel like we were an arrangedmarriage in many ways.
But he always wanted to open arestaurant since he was 15 years
old.
So after we got married, wemoved to Italy, and I had just
graduated Leslie University, sohad my graduate degree in
education, moved to Italy, heworked in a restaurant there,
(04:58):
and I nannyed for a wine family.
So I nannyed at a winery and didthat while we lived there.
We lived there for six monthsand learned all about wine.
I also was teaching English tosome actually famous winemakers
as well.
And then he was doing, um, hewas working in a restaurant, and
when we got home, um, it wasabout, I guess it was stopped
(05:21):
there for a moment.
That's a lot.
Do you want me to keep going?
But I can go with the and we hadour kids.
So wait, what one very, veryinteresting thing.
That's what I said, cut me offlong career.
SPEAKER_00 (05:32):
One very interesting thing that I heard was arranged
marriage.
Yeah.
Coming from India, that soundswonderful, fantastic.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
I I should not joke about that, but we do feel like
it's true.
So his um our grandmothers werebest friends, and I grew up in
Plymouth, Josh's mom grew up inPlymouth, my mom grew up in
Plymouth, and Josh grew up inBrookline.
So, but he would come home andhe would go to high holidays in
Plymouth.
So I always saw him at thetemple.
(06:01):
And later, after we graduatedcollege, he was working in
restaurants, I was working inrestaurants, so our grandmothers
said we had to meet each other.
And sure enough, we hit it off,and that was it.
We never dated another personsince.
SPEAKER_00 (06:14):
I love those grandmothers.
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
They're the best.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
They are the best, yep.
And and they did good.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
They sure did.
I mean, now 28 years old.
28 years later.
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Yeah, they they they knew both of you, both the
grandmothers knew you.
Excellent.
Okay, so let's go back to therestaurants.
Um, so essentially, um uhacquisition costs for new
customers are usually muchhigher than retention.
So if you have somebody who'salready come and tried out your
restaurant, then it's mucheasier to get them to come back
again rather than try to getnew.
(06:46):
So with your with the longevityhistory that you have with your
restaurant, how do you do that?
How do you keep customers comingback to your restaurant again
and again?
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Um it's that's a great question.
It's consistency, it's feelinglike that, you know, that cheers
mentality, everybody knows yourname.
I used to take amazing notes inwhen we had open table, now we
have resie that would just tracktheir behavior and little
things, birthdays, children, andjust that little memory recall.
(07:16):
And now, I mean, my staff, theyit's a seamless the way they run
things is seamless.
They do such a great job.
They just make people feel athome.
We've always wanted to be a homeaway from home.
And it's all word of mouth.
We do not do any advertising.
So we do a lot of communitysupport, we do a lot of
donations for nonprofits for ourour guests, you know, for our
(07:39):
guests who reach out to us, butwe really do no advertising at
all.
I wish I were better at socialmedia too.
SPEAKER_00 (07:47):
Okay, so let's pivot a little bit with your other
role that you have.
Um, you are the executivedirector of Mass Restaurant
United.
So um, for those that areunfamiliar with this
organization, tell us a littlebit about what is MRU, what are
its aims and missions, and whatdoes it do?
SPEAKER_01 (08:03):
So um Mass Restaurant United was formed
during COVID to help independentrestaurants really survive
through COVID.
It was a group of chefs andrestaurateurs who got together
as our founding members.
And we have now grown over theyears in the past five years to
be a coalition that offersadvocacy, community, and
(08:25):
education to independentrestaurants all across
Massachusetts.
It's an amazing organization.
I want to highlight, first ofall, I mean, I always highlight
the advocacy, but the communityas well.
It just is so welcoming, and wedo these outreach events all
across Massachusetts to kind ofspread the word on how
important, as you had mentionedin the beginning, how important
(08:48):
independent restaurants are toour culture, our community, and
to our state as well, and to ourcountry.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
So uh, since this is a very new organization
established during the pandemic,five, six years, so what what
happened?
Why did the independentrestaurants feel the need to
have their own?
There are many otherorganizations that are
supporting restaurants.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Absolutely.
Um, so there's Mass RestaurantAssociation, which is a great
organization.
My restaurants have been a partof that for many years.
But there are different needswhen you have an independent
restaurant, a mom and pop-runtype of restaurant.
Often your needs align with whatchain restaurants or large food
(09:33):
service organizations mightneed.
But there is just this specialattention that's needed for
these independent restaurantsthat might be different, and
they don't always align.
So we really feel like thisseparate advocacy group is very
important for independentrestaurants.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
And it's all across Massachusetts?
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
Everywhere, yes.
And we've now done five outreachevents across Massachusetts, and
people are really getting toknow us and joining.
We doubled our membership in thelast year.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
How many members do you have now?
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
Um so we have over 450 members.
We have over 2,000 followers andsubscribers, but we're really
working.
I think a lot of people thinkthat they're members because
they get our emails, they see uson social media, they come to
our amazing events.
But actually, our organizationis driven by membership, and
we're really hoping to convertall of those subscribers to be
(10:28):
members.
SPEAKER_00 (10:29):
Well, there might be some subscribers to your emails
that are just, you know, theylove restaurants and they are
supporters or they're allies.
So, but 450 restaurants, that'sthat's that's a very good
achievement.
SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
450 members.
Members.
So we don't have to be able todo that.
There's some allies and buyersand so forth.
Exactly.
And now what we've done is anoutreach to our the employees as
well.
And we have a workers' advocacycommittee as part of the
organization because it is thebig picture.
I mean, during the pandemic, itwas like we just needed these
restaurants to survive, so itwas very owner-centric.
(11:05):
But now we're moving past that,and we need to look at the whole
picture and really the ethos ofthe restaurant business, and
that's incredibly important tous.
So we really want that workers'advocacy voice to be part of it.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
So, since you mentioned workers' advocacy as
well, let's talk about whathappened a couple of years ago
with uh with the famous questionnumber five on the ballot.
Um, so in Massachusetts, um, weall know that the tips cannot be
shared with back of the house,and the servers, those who are
getting tips, they are gettingpaid from the employer a wage
(11:43):
that is less than the minimumwage with the expectation that
they will make that up in thetips, and if they don't make up,
the employer is responsible.
But that um that campaign, whichfailed, by the way, I'm sure,
thanks to in part to youradvocacy, strong advocacy.
Yeah.
Um, but that kind of didhighlight the the difference
between the total hourlyearnings at the front of the
(12:05):
house and back of the house.
So, how do independentrestaurants try to take care of
that gap?
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
We are struggling.
It is, you know, it is really achallenging question that we are
talking about every day andevery time we meet in this
committee because the majorproblem is running an
independent restaurant now, thenumbers are not working, and the
pie is only so big.
(12:34):
So the only way that we can makethis work is to charge an
exorbitant amount for our menu.
And I know it seems like an easysolution to just raise the
prices, but the amount you haveto raise to be able to
compensate the front of thehouse and the back of the house
the same, that's saying aboutprobably$40 an hour,$50.
(12:54):
Many restaurants, you know, thefront of the house is making
even a lot more than that.
You just would have to increaseyour prices to, you know,$150 a
menu item.
I don't even, I haven't done themath.
It's just, it's not realistic.
Unfortunately, it's how ourbusiness model was created based
on the way we are paying thefront of the house and the back
(13:15):
of the house.
And I mean, even just in theevolution of Lamora, we started
at$263 an hour for tippedemployees and probably$15.16 an
hour for restaurant, you know,for the um kitchen employees,
and that's and you know,probably entry level.
And now it's$675 for tippedemployees.
I mean, that's a big increase.
(13:36):
I know it's been 20 years, butyou can only increase your
prices so much.
And then back of the house to becompetitive now, it's$20,$30.
So it's just the numbers aren'tworking.
There has to be some sort ofshift.
We had a great idea during thepandemic to charge a like a um
kitchen appreciation fee.
(13:57):
And a lot of people really likedthat and embraced it.
I would say we did we did do itat LaMora.
And in the time we did it atLaMora, and that started during
COVID, so in four years, maybetwo people asked to have it
removed.
I mean, it was very transparenton the menu, on our website, on
the receipt, but and peopleloved it and they would even
give more.
(14:18):
But now new legislation has comeabout where there's this junk
fee legislation, so you can'tcharge an admin fee or a kitchen
appreciation fee.
It has to be rolled into yourmenu prices.
Well, now your gratuity goes up.
So the front of the house, ifyou do add it into your menu
prices, which we have done, thefront of the house is still
(14:39):
making more because they'remaking the gratuity.
So it's it's just this viciouscycle, and we are working really
hard.
We're open to many ideas.
We're trying to hear from chefs,from dishwashers, from
garmanger, what is the solution?
And they really understand thatthe pie is only so big as well.
SPEAKER_00 (14:58):
Right.
Very interesting that thekitchen appreciation view also
got caught up in the junk feecategory.
SPEAKER_01 (15:05):
Yeah, there I mean, there really just seems to be
something against being able tocompensate the kitchen other
than you know an hourly wage,which we we we do.
Again, like it's just so if thenwe changed it to be the same
wage for the front of the houseand the back of the house, it
would be you would have to lowertheir wage to be able to
(15:26):
compensate for the front of thehouse to make the same that
they're making, but they're notgoing to stay because that's not
they can go elsewhere.
I mean, they could go elsewhere,it's just it's just not what
they're used to.
Um, and I think it's just theculture, and I don't know if
there's going to at one at somepoint be, you know, a an
explosion of what the cultureis.
(15:46):
I d I don't know.
Um, but it is across thecountry, and I just don't know
how we can still get the amazinghospitality that is in our blood
without having the tippingculture.
But i there could be a solutionout there.
I don't want to say there isn't.
SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
Okay.
Um so now let's talk aboutduring the pandemic there was
um, since people, you know, uhcould not go to restaurants, so
these third-party deliverycompanies started and and they
were charging a lot of fees, andI don't know that you worked on
the advocacy to cap those fees.
Those gaps have gone away now,and those fees have risen.
(16:25):
So now we have to think of acouple of different things.
One is the survivability, theprofitability of the independent
restaurants, you have thethird-party apps, they also are
going to need money need to makemoney.
Um, and then you have the thisyounger generation which thinks
of this as a utility.
They just sit in order.
So, how do we, what do you thinkin the long term is going to
(16:48):
happen to these three competingforces?
SPEAKER_01 (16:51):
It's tricky because we do understand, even with
credit card companies, weunderstand they need to charge
processing fees.
It makes sense.
But in Massachusetts, we'readvocating for the fact that we
are paying processing fees ontax and gratuity.
SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
Why can't you then, at least for the gratuities
part, and I know that you're notallowed to, but you know, that's
what people will think.
Why can't you just deduct thecredit card rate before handing
out the gratuity to the staff?
SPEAKER_01 (17:21):
Because you're not allowed to.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
You're not allowed to.
SPEAKER_01 (17:23):
I mean, for one reason, you're not allowed to.
It's and again, it's not part ofthe culture.
So it's like if you're doingthese things that uh that isn't
part of the culture, sure, ifyou're a brand new restaurant
when you're hiring people, or ifyou bring on new people, that
could be something you could,you know, bring into the
conversation.
But your staff that you've hadfor seven, eight years, like I'm
(17:45):
fortunate enough to have staffthat have been there, and all of
a sudden I said, Oh, by the way,I'm gonna deduct 3% from your
tips every week.
So that's one thing.
And then as far as processingfees in general, it's not
allowed in our state.
So that is another thing we'readvocating for.
You can't put the processing feeon a client using a credit card
in Massachusetts, you can't putthat back on the client.
(18:07):
That being said, it's not aneasy road to do either.
Like if you're if everybody didit, sure, that's not a problem.
But if one restaurant and thentheir next door neighbor doesn't
charge processing fees, it'sjust not going to, it's not
hospitable.
It's not who we are.
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Right.
Also, very interesting that thecredit card companies know what
the tip is.
They necessarily may not knowthe tax part because you know,
beverages and food items are alltaxed at different rates.
So with that one amount, theydon't know how much of that is
taxed and how much is notuntaxed is going to you, but
(18:42):
they know the tips because thatis a separate line item.
So if the credit card companiesdid want to cooperate with you,
they could they a thousandpercent could, and a a lot of
processors are point of salesystems too.
SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
So they do understand and they can they can
set up the point of sale to lineitem it as well.
It's possible.
We have the technology.
Um well in this in the state ofMassachusetts, right now you
can't, so there are certainthings.
But I guess yes, the processorscould reduce the fees.
You're right, that is true.
Or eliminate it or get them onour side.
SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Okay, so um another thing, another big win that you
had was um removing the U.S.
citizenship requirement from uhalcohol license managers, so
those managers who are managingthis.
So why did you do this and whatdoes it mean in the long run?
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
So I wasn't part of Mass Restaurant United at the
time.
I had just um I was coming ontothe board right after that, but
the whole process was going onwhile I was on the board, and I
am just so proud of us for doingthat because I think so.
A manager who works in arestaurant doesn't own the
restaurant, they're justmanaging the restaurant.
(19:58):
If they didn't have citizenship,they couldn't be the manager of
record on the license.
So you're you're they are therethe the most amount of time, so
many owners would just stay asthe the owner on that license
because the manager couldn't.
But it really wasn't followingall the rules in that respect.
So many non-citizens aremanagers and they're able, they
(20:22):
have their legal, uh, they'relegal working employees, but
they weren't allowed to be themanager of records.
So it was just a win in so manyways.
For one, the humanistic value ofit for me is the most important.
It's why I'm advocating for ourimmigrant families so much.
But also just the fact that manypeople didn't even know that
(20:42):
that was an issue or that wasnot allowed.
So it was a no-brainer.
Of course, we would have ourmanagers as the manager of
records.
So I think that it was just anadvocacy that needed to be done,
and you need to get the wordout.
And it was, like I said, thehumanistic thing to do, but also
the economic and also justproper, I can't think of the
(21:03):
word, but like a proper thingfor correct employment
practices, because there's a lotof rules that go into managing a
liquor license, and you want tobe sure you're following all the
rules.
SPEAKER_00 (21:13):
Right.
Okay, so you mentioned thisearlier when I asked you about
MRU versus other organizations.
Um, commercial real estate costscontinue to increase and rise
dramatically all over.
Um, anywhere you know you go andyou look at urban centers, you
see genification of them, youknow, you see all these national
restaurants.
Whereas I love to see local uhcommunity help people who are
(21:37):
living in the community, youknow, do those restaurants.
But if you have a 30 seat localbistro competing against a well
funded national group for thesame um corner, you know, lot,
what kind of policy change ortax change or what kind of
change do you think is going tomake the most difference to make
(21:59):
that low?
Restaurant owner or a bistro becompetitive against these deep
funded places?
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
It's the biggest challenge that we're facing is
real estate and rent and theprice of rent and going into
like you know these amazingplaces like Legacy Place or the
street.
And, you know, I think one thinggetting the teamwork from the
developers, like WS Development,our allied members of Mass
(22:29):
Restaurant United, and they'retrying to think of creative ways
to help the independentrestaurateur.
And I think for Mass RestaurantUnited, we have to spread the
word on what these high rentsmean.
There's a lot of like sharedpartnership rents, and you could
be more of like an interestbased on profit.
Don't tell them that sometimesit's a nonprofit uh situation,
(22:53):
especially with the numbersright now.
But having some sort of reliefon rent would help our
independent restaurants probablythe most.
I will say, like at Lamora, weown our building.
We're really fortunate.
And I would give the advice toany independent restaurateur, if
you have the opportunity to opena restaurant and own the real
(23:14):
estate, that's a it's a win-win.
It can be a struggle and reallyhard, but in the end, it just
will it will create so muchrelief in the long run that
you're not just doling out thatmoney for rent.
So I think cooperation with ourcooperation with our landlords,
and then more opportunity to beable to buy real estate for
(23:38):
restaurants, which is the key tosurvival of independent
restaurants.
Because I mean, you want to havethese smaller run non-chain
places.
There's just so much community,and not to say that chains don't
have community and heart andgreat hospitality because they
do.
I love many of our restaurantsthat have multiple locations,
(23:58):
but there's something to be saidfor that husband and wife team
or wife team, and you know,there's just something to be
said for that, the heart ofthose independent restaurants.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
So um I'm just wondering, um, you know, for
example, in terms of when I knowin the city of Boston, if if any
developer comes with a proposalto create, let's say,
apartments, uh, city has somerequirement that they have to be
X percent that are rentcontrolled.
I wonder if something similar,analogous could happen where
(24:32):
there's a developer makingdevelopment and you know, 20% of
stores or space has to belocally, you know, non-chain
kind of, so that you know youhave a possibility of getting
some relief on the rent.
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting concept.
I'm not going to say I'm anexpert in this field.
I just recently joined Chapa,who's working really hard for
affordable housing, and it'svery important for the
restaurant industry because youwant your employees to be able
to live in the communities thatthey serve or near and not an
hour and a half away.
(25:06):
I mean, it's um we're not evenasking for much.
We're just even to have publictransportation that's again not
an hour and a half away.
But so I think affordablehousing is incredibly important,
and advocating for it isimportant.
Again, like I'm not aneconomist, I don't know how we
can make it happen.
SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
Right, but what I was saying was uh in a similar
fashion, if you if you requireany development to have 20% or
any X percent stores that arelocally owned rather than
chains.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
I think that's a great idea.
I think it's a move in the rightdirection.
Again, they can only afford itif you give them the funding.
I think grants are amazing.
They helped us survive thepandemic and most restaurants as
well that were able to lean ongrants, even like$5,000 grants.
Because, you know, there's alsothis whole dispute about rent
(26:01):
control in itself.
So we have to be careful how wego about that.
I think you have to make it away that it's not funded.
Even the landlords, I mean, howare we going to be able, how are
they gonna be able to afford abuilding if they can't charge
rent?
I mean, this we're all inbusiness.
We all need to at least breakeven at this point.
So there just needs to be somesort of either grants or funding
(26:24):
or low, low, low, low interestloans available to be able to do
something like that.
I think it's a great idea, butwe have to make sure we put the
foundation into place so thenyou don't have empty storefronts
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (26:36):
Right.
Okay, so let's move on to diningbehavior and Gen C.
So the first thing I want totalk about is uh, you know, in
the old days you would havesomething known as a bar tab.
So people would leave theircredit cards or they would say,
okay, put it on my tab, and theywould be keeping a running tab.
Uh but now in this generation,people are actually, you know,
(26:58):
doing more transactions.
Okay, they'll order, pay itright away.
So, what does that do to the umto the social atmosphere of a
tavern or the bar or whereverthey are?
How does that change the flow ofconversations or you know, the
social situation?
SPEAKER_01 (27:16):
Um, well, I'm the whole the put it on my tab thing
might have just been in themovies, at least.
Oh, okay.
I don't know if it would be likea would that be a running tab
like for days?
Or or at least for the wholeevening.
In the evening, people I peopleare still doing that.
So we have the capabilities.
You can what's great now is youcan swipe your card and then I
(27:36):
mean they have all theinformation in our point of sale
system, so you can continue togo back to the bars.
So I do see that.
Um, as far as like things beingmore transactional with the
younger generation, I don'tthink I think we still have a
bar scene or a community.
I think the the situation now,and I'm not going to call it an
issue because it's not an issue,it's fairly wonderful, but
(27:59):
people are drinking less, andthe younger generation is
drinking less, that that couldbe affecting the you know, the
bar scene more than the factthat they're not um running
tabs.
I think they're just notdrinking as much.
And I think that um, you know,that it is a worry because a lot
of profit is made on alcohol,but I think they're also
(28:22):
exploratory too, and they'reexploring mocktails, and we have
lots of non-alcoholic optionsthat they're exploring as well.
And like I said, I don't want tosay drinking less is a bad
thing.
I think moderation is perfect,yeah.
But I also feel like it's alittle bit of a trend, and you
know, I I think for the way oursociety has been built, I mean,
(28:43):
wine to me, I'm Assam, so it'svery important.
And there's just so muchconversation and culture around
that as well, that I I don'twant that to be lost forever.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
But yeah, and that's exactly what I was gonna ask
you, being a Somalier.
Um, you know, people aregravitating more towards these
ready to uh drink drinks, youknow, straight out of open up a
can, you know, put it in.
Um even the wines are much moreuh to some extent approachable,
and so that must bother you tosome extent.
SPEAKER_01 (29:14):
Yeah, I mean it is it's hard, it really is.
Um I feel very fortunate at LaMora that we have, you know,
it's really authentic Italianfood and we only have Italian
wine.
So when people come, they wantto experience the wine and
really delve into it.
But I will say at Punchball, Ihave this all-female, wonderful
wine list of female owners,winemakers, vineyard managers,
(29:38):
and it's more of theready-to-drink cocktail scene,
beer scene, wines by the glassscene, because it's a hotel and
people aren't necessarily uhthere, you know, to experience
our wine list, although they do.
Now and again, I won't say theydon't experience the wine list.
I think that um also withtravel, like people aren't
(30:00):
traveling as much.
They are starting, or they wereuntil this year, starting to
travel more.
And I I do feel like we'll getthis back, like especially the
experience you have with wine inother countries, and then they
come back and they want to havethat wine, they want to have
that wine they had in Portugalor Italy Italy or Australia.
So I I hope it's a trend.
(30:22):
I think it's a trend.
I do think it'll come backbecause, you know, especially
with my background and what Ihave learned and the community
I've built in the wine world, Iwould that would be devastating
if that went away.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Right.
Okay, so um uh in this day andage of remote work, we have this
a lot of people want to go into,you know, they're working from
home, they want to go into cafesand restaurants and spend their
time in the in a in a in thatsetting to spend.
At the same time, as anindependent restaurant owner,
any restaurant owner, you havethis concept of table turnover.
(30:59):
So you want certain X amount ofrevenue.
So, how do you think that we'regonna balance the need for a
third place for the youngprofessionals versus the need
for table turnover and X amountof revenue?
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Um, I actually think we're suffering from table
turnover more because people aregoing out earlier and not later.
And so the you might have thosetables available at 8 and 8:30,
9 o'clock, but there's notnecessarily a late night crowd,
and I have and I really attestthat to remote work in some
(31:32):
ways, because when you're homeand like you said, you know,
it's like five o'clock or sixo'clock, you're ready to start
talking to people and seeingpeople, so you're going out
earlier.
And I don't know if it's just mygeneration, but I am seeing
people going out so much earlierand not necessarily staying out
later.
And I think if the you know thekids these days are going out
(31:54):
later, they want to kind of goback to where where they live in
that area and not necessarilysit in a restaurant or go sit,
go out to eat at nine, 10o'clock.
But that's just what I'm seeinga bit.
I think turnover is reallyimportant, but at least you
know, for higher-endrestaurants, it's the most
important thing if you havesomeone who's there for a longer
(32:15):
period of time, you know, justto ensure that they're they're
eating and having some nice winewith their meal also is very
valuable.
unknown (32:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Um we we briefly talked about this uh earlier
about the tipping and how thatimpacts the total compensation.
But uh what has happened um,particularly since COVID, um,
pretty much every place whereyou're paying is now asking for
tips, or you know, they'llswitch the iPad around and say,
okay, how much do you want totip?
Even if it is counter-service,even if you're going and serving
(32:47):
yourself.
Um so there is some sort of atipping fatigue that there is in
people.
So, how do we go and tell peopleabout the importance of tipping
and and the role that it playsin the compensation in the
restaurant sector versus allthese other places that are now
adding it?
SPEAKER_01 (33:05):
It's again, like, I wish I had the answers for that.
I know being a restaurateur andgrowing up in this industry, if
somebody flips the screen and ithas a tip percentage, I tip them
because I I just feel like, ohmy gosh, maybe they're not being
compensated, and maybe they'renot.
I mean, I don't, I do thinkretail is almost, you know,
(33:25):
almost as hard as runningrestaurants and also really hard
to pay your employees what theydeserve to work in retail.
Same with even you know, fastservice and counter service.
I don't think that they'remaking$30,$40 an hour.
So I always think about thatwhen I am tipping, that they
probably do deserve the extra,the extra tip.
(33:48):
I do feel like our culture istip fatigued, but again, like if
you have great service, why not?
I mean, why not give somebody atip?
But I I don't think everybodyfeels that way.
And you know, sure, in therestaurant industry they are
paid$675, where someone else ispaid.
The minimum wage is$17 an hour.
And that too is not a lot ofmoney.
(34:09):
So if you're making minimumwage, having an extra gratuity
is is okay as well.
SPEAKER_00 (34:16):
Okay, so let's uh move to another topic that
you're very familiar with, whichis the mental health and burnout
issue.
Uh you have the Round theRegions tour.
Um for students who areconsidering a career in this
industry.
You know, when I grew up and Iwas in the industry, 60, 70, 80
hours was pretty common.
Um but now people are lookingfor quality of life and balance
(34:40):
between work and and and life aswell.
So how do you is wellness evenpossible in our industry?
SPEAKER_01 (34:47):
1000% it is possible.
And it it should just bestandard.
And I do feel like I mean, Igrew up in the front of the
house, you know, doing being aserver, as I mentioned.
And, you know, I would go home,I come home from college and I
would be so excited.
I worked a triple yesterday, Iworked breakfast, lunch, and
(35:08):
dinner.
That had nothing to do with therestaurant, and it had nothing
to do with what they asked ofme.
That was because I was home forfive days and I needed to make
my entire semester of money inthose five days.
So I think there's this, youknow, there's there are two
sides to the story as well.
However, I there areexpectations, and especially in
(35:29):
ownership and management, thatyou honestly are working
sometimes 24-7.
And it's just not feasible.
And but it I do also think it'sthe responsibility, especially
of the owner, but also of themanagement team, to check
themselves too, and the and thekitchen team to make sure that
(35:50):
they're still doing their joband meeting expectations, but
they're not working these insanehours.
And I but I do think a lot ofpeople in our industry bring it
on to themselves.
I'm not saying everybody,because I know there are
expectations in restaurants thatrequire people to work more than
they should.
Mental health is so important,and our industry now offers so
(36:13):
many resources, and thanks toBoston University as well, they
have a program with SouthernSmoke, which is out of Texas,
and they Southern Smoke funds agrant that offers free mental
health support to thehospitality industry.
You only have to have worked, Ithink it's six months, for a
(36:34):
restaurant to qualify.
And it's not just mental healthsupport, it's also if you're in
a, God forbid you're in a caraccident and you're out of work
for three weeks, they'll helppay your wages.
If you have to have anoperation, they'll help pay you
for that time.
And there are many otherorganizations like Southern
Smoke that I'm learning aboutnow across the country.
(36:54):
And the exciting thing is MassRestaurant United is partnering
with them and we're joiningother coalitions that we can all
band together to get the wordout because many people don't
know.
I mean, we had Southern Smoke,Chris Shepard, the founder, at
our breaking boundaries andhospitality event last year.
It was one of the best panels.
Everybody was saying, like, Ihad no idea they existed.
(37:16):
So we're we're thankful toBoston University for partnering
with them.
And there are many otherprograms out there that offer
the same support.
And also like Samaritans inBoston.
Did you know there was a thingyou dial 988 if you want to talk
to someone?
I did not know that.
Um, and everybody should knowabout 988.
I just had a call with themrecently, and Michael from
(37:39):
Samaritans was saying to me, hesaid, it's not necessarily
because you know you're havingsuicidal thoughts.
It's just you might just needsomeone to talk to.
And it it could be aboutanything.
He said, they get people who arejust a little lonely, but they
man these phones 24-7.
They have a huge phone power andvolunteer support, so they're
(38:00):
able to.
So 988 is the number.
And I we're just also workinghard to get that the word out.
Someone from Samaritans will bespeaking at our conference this
June as well.
SPEAKER_00 (38:11):
Looking ahead, what do you see as some of the
biggest challenges facing uhlocal restaurants or rather
independent restaurants?
I know you've talked about someof them.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
Yeah, I mean, I really do think the
profitability is the biggestchallenge, and it's the entire
ecosystem of that, all the wayfrom agriculture, all the way to
you know what is happening withlabor and um processing fees.
So I think economically that'sour biggest challenge.
Immigration is is huge, and it'sa right now, especially because
(38:44):
we are an industry that wasbuilt on immigrants.
And I mean, I I can name like somany of my employees that came
from other countries, and I justdon't know how we could survive
without their heart and soul aspart of our industry.
So I think advocating for ourimmigrant families is really
(39:05):
important.
Other challenges, I think alsojust education.
I think being able to have it bean industry with upward mobility
is important.
The pathways, so manyrestaurants, like I've spoken
here at Boston University andtalk to your students, it's one
of my favorite things to do.
It's the teacher and me forsure.
(39:26):
I look at the classroom andthey, you know, say, you know,
how can I open a restaurant?
How can I own a restaurant?
I always say to them, the mostimportant thing is that you've
worked in a restaurant andideally worked in every aspect
of that restaurant.
I'm at a disadvantage.
I never worked in the kitchen,they won't let me.
I just set the fire alarm offthe other night in the kitchen.
(39:46):
Um, but I wish I had, even just,you know, and I wish I should
still.
I shouldn't say I wish I had.
It's not too late.
But try to work in every aspectof the industry because I think
that's the most important.
So when I say education, I alsothink for Mass Restaurant United
and our independent restaurants,workforce development is so
(40:08):
important.
It's something we're reallytrying to foster, like having
partnerships with BostonUniversity, with Root North
Shore, with future chefs, allthese organizations who are
working towards the nextgeneration of hospitality
leaders.
That's very important to us, andI hope we will be able to offer
(40:29):
those educational classes withthese partnerships in the future
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (40:34):
Um yeah, I the working in the kitchen, that's
an excellent point.
I remember a long time ago,probably 42 years ago, but when
I first started my job, it wasnine months I had to spend in
the kitchen.
So every aspect of the kitchen.
And I still remember some ofthose days, uh, some of the
things that I did there.
Um, though I don't go into thekitchen a whole lot.
(40:57):
It's pretty dangerous there.
Okay, one question before we umgo to the lightning round.
So um the question is about AI.
With all the things you havementioned, um the labor
challenges and the costs ofeverywhere.
I'm wondering, um, curious toknow, are you using AI in any
way to help you in restaurantoperations?
SPEAKER_01 (41:18):
I see it, so for me personally, I see AI working for
me with um like Instagram,marketing, things that kind of
route I could see.
Again, I wish I had time todelve more into it because I do
really see the benefits of itand the ability to use it in
that respect.
(41:40):
I know that a lot of our umpoint of sale systems,
reservation systems, all ofthose systems are incorporating
AI.
And as the ED of MRU, I'membracing those companies and
learning so much of what they'reable to do.
Inventory control ordering.
I think embracing AI in thoserespects will be so important.
(42:05):
I think at some point we won'thave to count inventory.
You'll still have to countinventory, sadly, because there
is still theft.
But you will, it'll be a muchmore seamless process.
Even just looking at, you know,year to year your PLs from year
to year.
I think using AI to decipherthose PLs for you.
And also I know um Eli Feldman,who he's also he's on our board,
(42:29):
but I think he teaches herepotentially, or I know he, I
don't know if he doesn't.
SPEAKER_00 (42:33):
So he used to teach here before the pandemic, and
then pandemic he said, I've gotto make the restaurant survive.
So but now we are getting him towork with our students on some
AI-related stuff as well.
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
He's my Eli's my AI guru.
Yes.
And I know that I've readarticles that he's written, you
know, working with toast and thetoast point of sale system and
ways to incorporate it on howyou set up your menu, how you
set up your line, who's workingwhich station.
You know, I always know likewhen I plan events, we can't
have more than two pastas onthat event menu, or that pasta
(43:06):
chef's gonna get killed if youhave a 50-person event.
So you just have to be reallyconscious.
And I think AI has, I know Eli'sreally learned a lot from AI
with that.
I think also there's this wholeother flip side about AI as
well, that um hospitality ishuman and we don't want to lose
that human touch.
Even the fact that I can't callmany restaurants makes me crazy
(43:31):
that no one's answering thephone.
Even during, you know, evenafter two o'clock or three
o'clock or four o'clock, they'rejust not answering the phone.
Because AI is doing eitheranswering the phone or or they
just direct you to theirwebsite.
Right.
And I know for a fact, like youcan sometimes find that extra
table, or a table might finishearlier.
And if you don't see thereservation or you don't call
(43:53):
and just get on some sort oflist, you won't know.
So those kind of um like thosethat non Human touch, especially
with the phone and with likethat, that part of planning and
execution of events, I thinkneeds to be human.
And then your table serviceagain.
I just I never thought therewould be a world that
restaurants weren't relevant.
(44:15):
I always like, we're we're good.
You know, maybe not ourrestaurant, but we're not going
to have a world whererestaurants aren't important.
And then we had the pandemic,and you're like, oh, okay, like
we might get shut down for areason.
I never thought that waspossible.
So now that we've seen thatpossibility, we need to be
careful to make sure that thathuman touch continues and
(44:35):
hospitality, that mentality ofhospitality continues because
it's in many people's blood, butit's not in everybody's blood.
And it's so important toindependent restaurants, but
just restaurants in general.
unknown (44:49):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (44:50):
Um good news, we are at the end, but I have um a few
more quick questions, shortanswers, no overthinking.
Okay.
Your non-negotiable morningcoffee order.
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
My non-negotiable morning coffee order.
Oh, um, iced coffee.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Black coffee.
SPEAKER_01 (45:10):
Iced black coffee, no room, no sweetener.
SPEAKER_00 (45:13):
Uh this next one might be a little hard.
Italy or Portugal, which is yourultimate soulmate travel
destination?
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
Okay, Italy for sure.
I mean it's it's fairly even,but Italy, I have to say.
So many visits.
SPEAKER_00 (45:26):
Yeah, both are beautiful destinations.
SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Red, white, or bubbly.
What is your class at the end ofa long shift?
SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
Uh it's white.
I do.
I love my Willamette Chardonnayor my friend Chardonnay, I do
admit.
SPEAKER_00 (45:38):
The one entry-level restaurant job, every young
professional, every youngprofessional should do at least
once.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Hostessing.
SPEAKER_00 (45:47):
Hostessing, okay.
Your hidden talent or hobby thathas nothing to do with food or
wine?
SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
Skiing.
SPEAKER_00 (45:55):
Skiing.
Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01 (45:56):
Okay.
I mean, I let me redo that.
Hidden talent?
What do you mean on?
That's hobby.
Um that's a hobby, okay.
Okay.
Hidden talent, I'm raisingfuture service dogs right now.
Oh wow.
And that is the talent, and it'smy new passion.
SPEAKER_00 (46:13):
Fantastic.
One word to describe the futureof independent restaurants in
Brookline.
SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
Community.
unknown (46:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
Keep coming.
Keep coming.
Okay.
Keep coming.
Community passion.
SPEAKER_00 (46:26):
So, Jen, thank you for such a thoughtful and a
meaningful conversation.
I really, really enjoyed it, andI hope that a lot of people are
listening and they come andenjoy the restaurants.
So, restaurants are not justbusinesses, they are the fabric
of the communities.
And leaders like you are helpingto ensure that they continue to
thrive and not just throughgreat food and service, but
(46:48):
through advocacy, connection,and purpose as well.
So thank you for coming on thepodcast.
SPEAKER_01 (46:53):
Thank you for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
If you would like to join the conversation or share
your thoughts on this episode,you can email me at shawdean at
bu.edu.
That is s-h-a-d-en-.
Thank you to the entire team atBU School of Hospitality.
This episode was produced byMara Littman with research and
content development by Dr.
Lan Lu, ably assisted by AlexDeenst and Isabella Lakin.
(47:20):
To keep up with theDistinguished, be sure to
subscribe wherever you listen toyour favorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutexperience innovation in our
undergraduate and graduateprograms by visiting BU.edu
slash hospitality.
I'm Arunupneja, Dean of BUSchool of Hospitality, wishing
you many happy meals, wonderfulcompany, and a bit of extra
(47:44):
patience for the hardworkingteams in our favorite local
restaurants.
Happy dining.
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