Leadership Series: Practical Strategies for Bridging Leadership Gaps with Executive Coach Lori Mazan
September 5, 2024 • 35 mins
What does it take to truly redefine leadership in today's fast-paced world? Lori Mazan, co-founder and Chief Coaching Officer at Sounding Board, shares practical and transformative strategies to address this challenge. In her new book, Leadership Revolution: The Future of Developing Dynamic Leaders, Lori offers a fresh perspective that rethinks outdated leadership norms.
In this special podcast episode on leadership, Arun Upneja is joined by Dr. Taylor Peyton, an expert in Leadership and Organizational Behavior who previously taught at BU School of Hospitality, bringing added depth and insight to the conversation.
The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.
Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations
Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu
Marketing: Anne Dawson
Editing: Isabella Laikin and James Leon
Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
What does it take to truly redefine leadership in
today's fast-based world?
Lori Mazan, co-founder and chiefcoaching officer at Sounding
Board, believes she has theanswer.
In her new book, LeadershipRevolution, The Future of
Developing Dynamic Leaders, Lorichallenges outdated leadership
norms with a fresh, innovativeapproach.
(00:25):
Join us as we dive into ourinsights and explore how they
can transform the way we leadand inspire.
It might just redefine what youthought possible in leadership.
Hello everyone, and welcome tothe Distinguished Podcast, the
show where we explore thefrontiers of leadership and
personal development.
I'm Arun Upneja, Dean of theBoston University School of
(00:47):
Hospitality, and today we have atruly special episode lined up
for you.
Welcome, Lori, to theDistinguished Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:55):
Thank you, happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
In addition, I am also excited to welcome Dr.
Taylor Payton.
Taylor taught Leadership andOrganizational Behavior at our
school and is still involved asan advisor on special projects
and executive education.
Today, she's our residentexpert.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Happy to be back in the recording studio with you,
Arun.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
Very happy to have you here.
So let's start.
Can you share with us whatinspired you to start Sounding
Board and how does it aim totransform leadership
development?
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
It's a really interesting story because a past
coaching client reached out tome and told me, like, hey, this
executive style coaching,leadership coaching, is the best
professional development I'veever had.
And I want to bring it to allleaders in organization.
(01:50):
And at the time I was coachingthis person, Christine Tao, my
co-founder, she was in theexecutive suite.
She had ascended very quicklyand needed help kind of
navigating how to move into anexecutive role.
And what was interesting is Ihad been coaching CEOs and
(02:13):
C-suite execs for 20 years.
And they also told me the samething.
They would say, this is great,but I wish I had this earlier in
my career.
So Christine and I partnered upto bring that same style of
executive coaching, leadershipdevelopment to all leaders in
(02:35):
the organization and even, youknow, future leaders, potential
leaders.
So that kind of personalizeddevelopment is available for
everybody, not just the peopleat the top of the house.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
And Lori, you are speaking to the best
professional development they'veever had, right?
For people who are listening tothis who do not have a
leadership developmentbackground or professional
development background, couldyou just speak a little bit to
the different methods people usefor professional development and
in particular what you mean bycoaching?
SPEAKER_02 (03:09):
So traditionally, for the last 50 to 60 years,
professional developmentinvolves a lot of skill
development.
And that comes through training,a training approach, either
in-person training, onlinetraining, that kind of thing.
And there's nothing wrong withthat, of course.
(03:32):
It's required and necessary andfoundational development.
But what coaching does, it'spersonalized development.
And it goes to the applicationof those skills.
So we start with skills, andthen the next level is
(03:53):
capabilities, where people arecombining skills for particular
purposes, something like saystrategic thinking or conflict
management, that requiresmultiple sets of skills to be
successful.
So blending skills together, wecall that capabilities.
(04:15):
And then the next level up iscalled capacity.
You know, what are those traitsthat you are developing
internally to yourself that makeyou an exceptional leader?
And that leap from foundationalskills to capacities that moves
leaders from good leaders toexceptional leaders.
(04:39):
And one reason this whole fieldof coaching has developed is,
you know, 30 years ago, I usedto be in training as well.
And we would teach the skills,and then the participants would
always ask the same question: like, wait, how do I apply this (04:53):
undefined
in my context, in my environmentwith this particular person?
And a large training approachreally just doesn't give you
that personalized my ownsituation answer that lets you
transfer the learning to yourdaily life.
(05:15):
And this coaching approach uhhelps you do that.
It allows you to, it gives youhelp, a thinking partner to um
take the skills that you haveand apply them successfully in
your specific situation andenvironment.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Lori, when we look to the history of executive
coaching in terms of when itfirst took off, leaders were a
bit resistant regarding thestigma of asking for a coach or
accepting that they might need acoach.
Can you speak a little bit towhat you do today effectively,
or what you've seen coaches dotoday effectively, to talk
(05:53):
leaders into the value ofcoaching?
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Great question.
So, yes, um, when coachingstarted, it really was like the
first visible um coach wassomeone who had talked about the
real executives.
So, yes, of course, peopledidn't want to be pigeonholed
into somebody who wasn't beingsuccessful.
But I would say by the late 90s,early 2000s, um, it had already
(06:21):
shifted so that leadershipcoaching was a developmental
methodology, not a remedialmethodology.
So that's why organizations usecoaching for high potential
groups, they're preparing themfor their next leadership role.
They use it for successionplanning.
(06:42):
Um, they use it for like it'sit's even though with technology
we've been able to bring theprice point down a lot, it's
traditionally very expensive.
So organizations are investingtheir funds in people they think
are going to be valuable totheir organization in the
future.
So one of the ways to thinkabout it is hey, your
(07:05):
organization's investing in youbecause they think you are high
potential.
They want to develop you to thenext leader, to the next level.
Um, I think the other thing isum because it's just a great
form of professionaldevelopment, what our coaches do
is it's they help theparticipant find out what their
(07:29):
own personal motivation pointis.
Like, what do they want toreally accomplish as a leader?
How do they think they can dothat?
What's the impact that they'relooking for?
Because being a leader is noteasy.
You know, you have to reallywant to do it.
It's it's challenging.
(07:50):
And so without sort of apersonal value and goal around
your role as a leader, it's hardfor people to do the work that's
required to get to the higherlevels of leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
There's a lot in this workplace today that isn't
easy when you look at the waywork has changed recently,
especially during COVID andafter.
One of my favorite quotes fromRichard Branson is train people
well enough so they can leave,treat them well enough so that
they won't want to.
And you just mentioned the valueof organizations investing in
(08:26):
their leaders.
But the reality is we live inthe kind of work world where
people hang out in organizationsnot for very long before they
depart.
What do you say to theseorganizations to convince them
that they should invest in theirleaders, that those leaders will
not be running away?
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
We can't guarantee that those leaders won't leave
because that is actually one ofthe big changes in the work
environment from the lastcentury to this century.
In the last century, it you had20 years to develop senior
leaders in the organization.
Uh, you know, employees werehired right out of their
(09:03):
education and stayed all the waytill the retirement.
Now you have three to fiveyears, right?
So it's a it's an acceleratedtimeline of leader development.
So I don't think we can say,hey, develop your folks into
leaders, they're going to stayfor 20 years, but we can say
(09:24):
develop your folks into leaders.
They will stay longer becausethey will feel the value of you
investing in them.
They will start to see theircareer trajectory take off,
right?
In other words, they'll bepromoted, they'll be given more
responsibility.
And why do people leaveorganizations?
(09:46):
Lots of reasons, but one is tomove to a higher level position
that they didn't have access toin their current organization.
So instead of organizationsletting people leave, why not
develop them internally to thenext level?
It's actually cost effectivebecause the cost of onboarding a
(10:07):
new employee and getting them upto speed is a significantly more
than the cost of giving somebodya leadership coach.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
So um at you know, a few minutes ago, you were both
discussing about, you know, youwere Lori, you were talking
about the differences in umexecutives.
Now the longevity at theworkplace is not as it was in
the previous century.
So I want to, this is a goodsegue.
I wanted to get to your book.
Leadership revolution, thefuture of developing dynamic
(10:38):
leaders.
In your book, you discuss howtraditional leadership models,
I'm assuming from the previouscentury, are often based on
outdated principles.
So can you expand on what arethese old principles that are
obsolete given this newgeneration, and what modern
approaches do you advocate forin their place?
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Yeah.
So many of the leaderdevelopment models and 360
feedback models were developedin the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
At that time, the workenvironment was primarily white
male.
Um, actually, for the first 10years of my coaching practice, I
(11:20):
only coached males because thosewere the only people that were
in the C-suite roles.
Um, so that's changed fairlydramatically.
Also, there was a much narrowernumber of generations in the
workforce.
You maybe had two, possiblythree generations because at
(11:41):
that time people timed out at6065.
Now you have four or fivegenerations in the workplace.
Um, of course, back then youdidn't have nearly as much
technology happening.
So the information overload isvery significant.
And then you also had a muchmore predictable environment.
(12:01):
So, as Taylor was mentioning,like the environment's anything
but predictable now.
You never know what's going tohappen the next day.
So the kind of leadership youneed is a style that can adapt
to the unknown.
You no longer can predict what'sgoing to happen tomorrow as you
could back in 1970, like let'ssay.
(12:23):
I think one of the biggestchanges is the last century, um,
there was a lot of leadershipmodels, like five ways you have
to have these five traits to bea good leader, or you have to
have these three qualities to bea good leader.
And what has happened is peoplehave realized no, that's not
(12:46):
true.
If there was only threequalities, people needed to be
an exceptional leader, everyonewould be an exceptional leader.
So, and those qualities werereally based on a more
male-dominated leadershipapproach, because that nothing
wrong with that, but that waswhat was there at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
So I'm assuming that you are working in depth with
what the person currently is andmaking minor tweaks here and
there are total minor or majorsometimes major tweaks.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
But the idea, this the reason why we don't try to
turn non-charismatic people intocharismatic people is because
that only works um when theenvironment is easy.
Under stress, people tend torevert back to their natural way
of being.
So if we can enhance theirnatural way of being, then even
(13:43):
under stress, they can still besuccessful.
And the way we do that is wehelp them change their thinking,
and then we apply behaviors tothe, you know, right out of the
new thinking.
So when thinking and behavior isaligned, then that tends to
stick over time.
(14:03):
And just like if you're a newmanager, you're gonna think
differently than if you're anSVP.
There's a different way ofthinking for each level of
leadership.
And to elevate yourself, youhave to think differently, and
therefore you have to have newbehaviors, behaviors attached to
that thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
So a quick follow-up here.
Um so whenever you are workingwith people who are moving into
new situations or they havemoved into new situations and
the culture is different, do yousort of try to figure out if
they are adaptable, if they havean intrinsic desire to adapt?
(14:43):
Or is it that you try and somesucceed and some don't?
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Uh, we try to help them adapt.
And here's why.
They already chose that job.
Right?
If we were coaching them beforethey chose that job, we might
want to ask the question (14:58):
is this the right environment for
you?
Right?
But since they already chosethat job, we try to help them to
adapt.
And one of the ways of adaptingis knowing when you can apply a
different approach successfullyand not.
So if you're more a driver, youknow, a go get them
(15:19):
task-oriented style, hey,there's other people in the
organization that you can usethat approach with and they'll
appreciate it.
Right.
And there's people in theorganization who won't
appreciate it, and that's whenyou need to be flexible or adapt
your um activities to that otherstyle.
(15:40):
And part of that just has to dowith knowing it.
Like if you only have oneapproach, you know, that old saw
about if you only have a hammer,everything looks like a nail.
One of the ways to be successfulas the leader is you have a very
wide variety of approaches thatcan be successful in a wide
(16:01):
variety of situations.
So, really, leadership coachingis about expanding your toolkit
and then helping you have thewisdom to know which tool to
apply in which situation for thehighest level of success.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
I'm very curious to know, since you deal with so
many CEOs and senior executives,what percentage of executives
need to change?
And how uh agreeable are they tochanging, or how many executives
you've seen that have totallytransformed the way they
function, either because thereis a new leader on top or
(16:42):
they're gone to a neworganization which has a very
different culture?
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
I mean, a basic capacity model suggests that you
never reach the end of thejourney.
So um theoretically, everyleader could use coaching.
Um, because there's always moreplaces to learn and grow and
adapt, especially with the verychanging, unpredictable
(17:06):
environment.
Um how many executives actuallywant to do that?
Um yeah, um, I would say that itthat number has been going up
and up over time.
Um, and it's still pretty highbecause even 20, 30 years ago I
(17:27):
was coaching those folks.
When you are at the top of anorganization, you don't have to
be the CEO, but let's say you'rein the C-suite or a VP or even a
senior director where you have alot of people underneath you,
you really don't have anybody totalk to that is neutral.
(17:48):
Everybody wants something fromyou.
Your employees want somethingfrom you, your peers want
something from you, the peopleabove you, even if you're the
CEO, the board wants somethingfrom you, the street wants
something from you, your familywants something from you.
Um, it's it's so valuable tothat leader to have a neutral
(18:13):
sounding board, a neutralthinking partner to help you
work through all the complexitythat's going on.
And that person doesn't wantanything from you, they only
want to support you towards yoursuccess.
Like, where else do you get thatin your life?
(18:34):
You don't get that anywhere,even from a friend or a spouse.
They might want to support you,but they're not neutral, right?
They have skin in the games.
They so they want something.
And your coach, especially ifit's outside the organization
coach, you get this veryneutral, non-judgmental ability
(18:55):
to just think through what'sgoing on and make the best
decision from your own frame ofreference.
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
It's lonely at the top and it's hard to find a
neutral party.
SPEAKER_02 (19:07):
Very much so.
So that's why people aremotivated to have a coach.
Like if you look at them, yousee, I think it's about between
80 and 90% of CEOs have a coach.
They may not make that visible,but but they have that person.
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
Okay, so I want to pivot to um since you are doing
um leadership development atscale, so clearly um there has
to be, and you use a tech-drivenapproach to leadership coaching.
And I wanted to find out whatdoes that mean and how do you
balance the human element ofcoaching with the technological
tools that you have in yourplatform?
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Mm-hmm.
So that's a big question,especially with the popularity
of AI right now.
So um the technology is reallygreat at automating repetitive
tasks.
It's very good at tracking umactivity, even development.
(20:06):
We have a little model calledLeadership Roadmap where we
track insight, actions, andresults.
Um, it's great for tracking goaland goal accomplishment.
Um, it's great for summaries.
It's even good for promptingthinking sometimes, like based
on what you said last time.
Here's some topics, somethinglike that.
(20:28):
But we think that the humanelement is really the key
element to development.
It's the human that can see thepatterns of operation, the
patterns of thinking, and figureout what's keeping those
patterns in place so that thosepatterns can be shifted.
(20:51):
So far, artificial intelligenceor any of the automated tools of
technology have not been able totouch that.
And I also think technologydoesn't touch the relationship.
Like part of the basis of acoaching relationship is deep
trust, right?
(21:12):
Because if you're a CEO or anyleader in an organization, you
have to trust that this personhas your best interest at heart,
that they are helping you bemore successful, you know, that
what they're saying is useful.
And so technology is moregeneralized while that human
(21:33):
relationship is verypersonalized and specific to
those two individuals.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Absolutely.
And from a leadership lens, youmust change and adapt to this
high tech world.
Otherwise, you won't be able tokeep up.
And so that's part of what Iappreciate very much about your
book is that you are helpingleaders ask the right questions
about what they value, what theybelieve to help them get unstuck
and realize where there might bepoints of resistance.
(22:00):
For their own change.
SPEAKER_02 (22:01):
I mean, at this point, we can't stop technology.
You know, you're not going to beable to stop the river.
So, unless you adapt to it andfind ways to use it in, you
know, in human ways, intechnological ways that blend
together, it's going to be hardto be successful down the road.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
So I'm assuming you're not yet scared of Chat
GPT releasing a leadershipdevelopment bond.
SPEAKER_02 (22:30):
No, in fact, I asked ChatGPT for like, what's the
difference between a coachingbot and a human coach?
And it actually knows thedifference.
It knows it can't do the samething as a human.
But we are sounding forward, weuse AI also.
We use it for our matchingalgorithm where we match a coach
(22:52):
and the participant onrelationship traits first, and
then more functional traits liketheir area, where they live,
that kind of thing, their levelof leadership.
So we use it there.
We also use it to createsummaries from the coaching
conversation so that it'stracked and it can then
(23:14):
eventually in the process rightnow of having it automatically
populate this leadershiproadmap.
So then the participant only hasto go in there and edit.
It doesn't have to start fromscratch.
So we're using in a way it'skind of like to enhance the
tracking and the engagement, butnot in any way to replace it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
Hey, even though this technology is good at
synthesizing and helping us doour work faster, I am still
nervous about spilling my gutsto a coach and having my data
privacy invaded.
And I don't have any controlover that as the coachy.
I'm worried.
SPEAKER_02 (23:51):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, we have lots of uhprocesses in place so that
there's a firewall between thecontent that is being talked
about and the development thatis being talked about.
So those content pieces are notvisible anywhere.
Um, we have collaboration tools,so like a participant can
(24:14):
include their manager, but theydon't have to.
They can mark their goals andtheir development private, or
they can make it public.
So it's all up to the individualbeing coached.
But one reason we try to helpthem uh determine what is uh
public information is because ifthe company is investing and me
(24:39):
as a leader, and I don't inexchange let them know how I'm
developing, it kind of goes intoa black hole.
So it creates a perception ofnot of no development.
So we work with the person beingcoached to create a perception
of development, and that doesmean revealing some information,
(25:01):
but that information is thechoice of the person being
coached to reveal, not thecoach, not the manager, not
anyone in the organization.
And the the organizations wework with understand that
completely.
They never ask us for thatinformation.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
So we are at a university at the School of
Hospitality at BostonUniversity, and we are trying to
educate our students so thatthey turbocharge their careers
and become accomplished leaders.
So those students and youngprofessionals, those students
who are still in college oryoung professionals just
starting out their careers, whatadvice would you give them?
(25:40):
What should they focus theirleadership development skills
on?
What are the growth areas thatthey should focus themselves on
so that they can prepare forfuture leadership roles?
SPEAKER_02 (25:50):
I would suggest first just uh once you feel like
you have your foundationalskills under your belt, start
working on your leadershipcapacities.
And in the book, there's a listof the ones, the kind of
generalized list of the ones weuse, but we got that list from
um the what MBA schools, the top10 MBA schools, um, teach in
(26:17):
terms of the leadershipcapabilities needed from a
business perspective.
So that's a very good list tolook at.
Um, I would say developing yourskills and capabilities would
get you about halfway there.
But to move from being a goodleader to an exceptional leader,
you need capacity.
(26:38):
And one of the primarycapacities is your own internal
compass.
So, especially for youngerstudents, but even older
students, um, to be anexceptional leader, you have to
be able to develop this way thatyou ultimately are making your
(26:59):
own decision that matches wellinternally with what's true for
you.
Um, sometimes this is calledcentral equilibrium.
I always talk about this asbeing the eye of the storm.
So if you see like the bighurricane and it's swirling
around with all thosehundred-mile winds, but in the
(27:20):
center of that is this littleplace where it's calm and the
sun is shining.
And if you see those, like theplane can sometimes fly through
those and right in there, it'slike perfect.
So, as a leader, you have tocultivate this eye of the storm
place that you can stand in sothat when all the pressures and
(27:42):
forces are coming at you fromall directions, you don't lose
your balance, you don't loseyour internal compass, you don't
lose your equilibrium and end upmaking choices that aren't the
best for you or your team oryour organization or your
industry.
(28:02):
So that's a long-termdevelopment process that I think
people can start uh reallyyoung.
I think they can even start itin childhood, depending on you
know the kind of parenting youget.
But it's certainly a lifelong umdevelopment opportunity around
that capacity.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
Lori, that takes experience and maturity.
And sometimes when I askstudents to get a leadership
coach or to consider gettingone, they come back to me and
say, I don't have the money forthat.
What words of wisdom would yougive to those early career
leaders?
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
One, you know, coaching has been become so
inexpensive these days that Iwould suggest they might just
check.
Is it that they don't have themoney or that that's not a
priority for them?
And something else might be apriority.
So if you really are on theleadership track, um, you might
(28:59):
want to invest in yourselfpretty early on that track.
But the other, you know, therethere's lots of other ways to
develop that are not coaching.
So mentoring is um a reallygreat way.
And you the mentoring can happenin the organization.
You can find your own externalmentors.
(29:22):
I think most of the successfulfolks had very good mentors, and
I'm guessing you have mentorsavailable right inside your
program, as well as ways to helpstudents find mentors outside of
your program.
So that's a generally freeopportunity.
Um, and uh and an up-and-comingleader can have multiple mentors
(29:47):
so they see and hear multiplepoints of view, and all of that
information goes into them,creating their own internal
compass.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
You know, one of the things uh I think um when people
think of mentors is people whoare ahead of them in age and
longevity and seniority in thecompany or some other company.
I think people should be lookingat mentors regardless of where
they are in whatever situations.
Younger people, even youngerexecutives to some extent can be
(30:19):
your mentors.
SPEAKER_02 (30:20):
100%.
They actually named that, theycalled it reverse mentoring,
which is people who are older intheir age and their career path
get mentored by younger peoplewho are more um immersed in
technology or generationalthinking that's not familiar to
(30:42):
that particular leader.
So 100% mentoring can go alldirections.
unknown (30:47):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
I know I have one such mentor right here in this
room.
Taylor has been a great, greatmentor to me as well.
Um before I have a couple of funquestions for you, Lori, but
before I um start on those funquestions, um, what should, why
should people contact SoundingBoard?
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
So Sounding Board offers very high-quality
coaching from early leaders orpre-leaders all the way up
through the C-suite.
And that was our goal (31:16):
provide that access for any leaders in
an organization, because we're aB2B organization.
But the truth is, coaching canbe for any leaders anywhere.
You can be a leader in yourfamily, in your community, in
your university, you know, withyour peers, however.
Um, and we also offer thetechnology to deploy, manage,
(31:42):
and measure all of the coachingand mentoring, really all of the
human-to-human leadershipdevelopment that you're doing.
So small group experiences,one-on-one experiences, whether
that's coaching, mentoring, um,small group training or
development in some other way.
So the software is what lets itscale to larger organizations
(32:07):
where traditionally there hasn'tbeen a lot of measurement around
leader development.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Some fun questions to end the podcast.
Um, if you could have asuperpower that would enhance
your coaching abilities, whatwould it be and why?
SPEAKER_02 (32:22):
Oh my gosh, if I could just read people's minds,
that would make things so mucheasier.
Um, and one reason is part ofcoaching is naming things that
the individual isn't reallyseeing themselves.
That can be emotions thatthey're feeling, that can be
(32:43):
patterns they're kind of stuckin that they don't see.
Um, it can be ways of thinkingthat are blocking them.
It can uh be a lot of thingsthat the the coach kind of
shines the light on for thatindividual to see more clearly.
That would all be so much easierif I could just read their
(33:05):
minds.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Lori, we know you're a busy leader, but when you do
get a break, what is your go-toactivity?
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Oh, I have a long practice of the martial art
called Tai Chi Chuan.
It's the the non-martial form isthat thing you see older people
doing in the park where they'removing really slow.
Okay, Tai Chi.
And I I've done the martialversion of that for 30 years.
(33:35):
So that includes a slow movingform, um a meditation, as well
as the martial forms, which isuh called push hands.
Um, it's more like sparring,interactive.
And we say um not only does itbring you some of that internal
equilibrium and and peace, um,it also lets you see how you
(34:00):
interact with others in thesparring format.
So it's a very um useful uh toolfor observing yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (34:10):
Fantastic.
Uh Lori, it has been anenlightening conversation and
your insights are trulyvaluable.
Thank you for joining andsharing your vision.
To our listeners, we hope youfound today's discussion as
transformative as I did.
Remember, leadership isn't justa role, it's a revolution.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please rate us so others can
(34:33):
find us and they can benefitfrom your insights.
If you want to join theconversation and share your
thoughts and suggestions, emailme at sardine at bu.edu.
That is sha atb.edu.
Special thanks to the team thatproduced this podcast, producer
Mara Littman, editor and soundengineer Andy Halleck, and the
(34:55):
editor of our leadership series,Dr.
Taylor Baden, and the entireteam at Boston University School
of Hospitality Administration.
To keep up with distinguishedpodcasts, be sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more about BUSchool of Hospitality by
visiting BU.edu slashhospitality.
(35:16):
Have a wonderful day.
What does it take to truly redefine leadership in
today's fast-based world?
Lori Mazan, co-founder and chiefcoaching officer at Sounding
Board, believes she has theanswer.
In her new book, LeadershipRevolution, The Future of
Developing Dynamic Leaders, Lorichallenges outdated leadership
norms with a fresh, innovativeapproach.
(00:25):
Join us as we dive into ourinsights and explore how they
can transform the way we leadand inspire.
It might just redefine what youthought possible in leadership.
Hello everyone, and welcome tothe Distinguished Podcast, the
show where we explore thefrontiers of leadership and
personal development.
I'm Arun Upneja, Dean of theBoston University School of
(00:47):
Hospitality, and today we have atruly special episode lined up
for you.
Welcome, Lori, to theDistinguished Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (00:55):
Thank you, happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:57):
In addition, I am also excited to welcome Dr.
Taylor Payton.
Taylor taught Leadership andOrganizational Behavior at our
school and is still involved asan advisor on special projects
and executive education.
Today, she's our residentexpert.
SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
Happy to be back in the recording studio with you,
Arun.
SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
Very happy to have you here.
So let's start.
Can you share with us whatinspired you to start Sounding
Board and how does it aim totransform leadership
development?
SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
It's a really interesting story because a past
coaching client reached out tome and told me, like, hey, this
executive style coaching,leadership coaching, is the best
professional development I'veever had.
And I want to bring it to allleaders in organization.
(01:50):
And at the time I was coachingthis person, Christine Tao, my
co-founder, she was in theexecutive suite.
She had ascended very quicklyand needed help kind of
navigating how to move into anexecutive role.
And what was interesting is Ihad been coaching CEOs and
(02:13):
C-suite execs for 20 years.
And they also told me the samething.
They would say, this is great,but I wish I had this earlier in
my career.
So Christine and I partnered upto bring that same style of
executive coaching, leadershipdevelopment to all leaders in
(02:35):
the organization and even, youknow, future leaders, potential
leaders.
So that kind of personalizeddevelopment is available for
everybody, not just the peopleat the top of the house.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
And Lori, you are speaking to the best
professional development they'veever had, right?
For people who are listening tothis who do not have a
leadership developmentbackground or professional
development background, couldyou just speak a little bit to
the different methods people usefor professional development and
in particular what you mean bycoaching?
SPEAKER_02 (03:09):
So traditionally, for the last 50 to 60 years,
professional developmentinvolves a lot of skill
development.
And that comes through training,a training approach, either
in-person training, onlinetraining, that kind of thing.
And there's nothing wrong withthat, of course.
(03:32):
It's required and necessary andfoundational development.
But what coaching does, it'spersonalized development.
And it goes to the applicationof those skills.
So we start with skills, andthen the next level is
(03:53):
capabilities, where people arecombining skills for particular
purposes, something like saystrategic thinking or conflict
management, that requiresmultiple sets of skills to be
successful.
So blending skills together, wecall that capabilities.
(04:15):
And then the next level up iscalled capacity.
You know, what are those traitsthat you are developing
internally to yourself that makeyou an exceptional leader?
And that leap from foundationalskills to capacities that moves
leaders from good leaders toexceptional leaders.
(04:39):
And one reason this whole fieldof coaching has developed is,
you know, 30 years ago, I usedto be in training as well.
And we would teach the skills,and then the participants would
always ask the same question: like, wait, how do I apply this (04:53):
undefined
in my context, in my environmentwith this particular person?
And a large training approachreally just doesn't give you
that personalized my ownsituation answer that lets you
transfer the learning to yourdaily life.
(05:15):
And this coaching approach uhhelps you do that.
It allows you to, it gives youhelp, a thinking partner to um
take the skills that you haveand apply them successfully in
your specific situation andenvironment.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Lori, when we look to the history of executive
coaching in terms of when itfirst took off, leaders were a
bit resistant regarding thestigma of asking for a coach or
accepting that they might need acoach.
Can you speak a little bit towhat you do today effectively,
or what you've seen coaches dotoday effectively, to talk
(05:53):
leaders into the value ofcoaching?
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Great question.
So, yes, um, when coachingstarted, it really was like the
first visible um coach wassomeone who had talked about the
real executives.
So, yes, of course, peopledidn't want to be pigeonholed
into somebody who wasn't beingsuccessful.
But I would say by the late 90s,early 2000s, um, it had already
(06:21):
shifted so that leadershipcoaching was a developmental
methodology, not a remedialmethodology.
So that's why organizations usecoaching for high potential
groups, they're preparing themfor their next leadership role.
They use it for successionplanning.
(06:42):
Um, they use it for like it'sit's even though with technology
we've been able to bring theprice point down a lot, it's
traditionally very expensive.
So organizations are investingtheir funds in people they think
are going to be valuable totheir organization in the
future.
So one of the ways to thinkabout it is hey, your
(07:05):
organization's investing in youbecause they think you are high
potential.
They want to develop you to thenext leader, to the next level.
Um, I think the other thing isum because it's just a great
form of professionaldevelopment, what our coaches do
is it's they help theparticipant find out what their
(07:29):
own personal motivation pointis.
Like, what do they want toreally accomplish as a leader?
How do they think they can dothat?
What's the impact that they'relooking for?
Because being a leader is noteasy.
You know, you have to reallywant to do it.
It's it's challenging.
(07:50):
And so without sort of apersonal value and goal around
your role as a leader, it's hardfor people to do the work that's
required to get to the higherlevels of leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
There's a lot in this workplace today that isn't
easy when you look at the waywork has changed recently,
especially during COVID andafter.
One of my favorite quotes fromRichard Branson is train people
well enough so they can leave,treat them well enough so that
they won't want to.
And you just mentioned the valueof organizations investing in
(08:26):
their leaders.
But the reality is we live inthe kind of work world where
people hang out in organizationsnot for very long before they
depart.
What do you say to theseorganizations to convince them
that they should invest in theirleaders, that those leaders will
not be running away?
SPEAKER_02 (08:42):
We can't guarantee that those leaders won't leave
because that is actually one ofthe big changes in the work
environment from the lastcentury to this century.
In the last century, it you had20 years to develop senior
leaders in the organization.
Uh, you know, employees werehired right out of their
(09:03):
education and stayed all the waytill the retirement.
Now you have three to fiveyears, right?
So it's a it's an acceleratedtimeline of leader development.
So I don't think we can say,hey, develop your folks into
leaders, they're going to stayfor 20 years, but we can say
(09:24):
develop your folks into leaders.
They will stay longer becausethey will feel the value of you
investing in them.
They will start to see theircareer trajectory take off,
right?
In other words, they'll bepromoted, they'll be given more
responsibility.
And why do people leaveorganizations?
(09:46):
Lots of reasons, but one is tomove to a higher level position
that they didn't have access toin their current organization.
So instead of organizationsletting people leave, why not
develop them internally to thenext level?
It's actually cost effectivebecause the cost of onboarding a
(10:07):
new employee and getting them upto speed is a significantly more
than the cost of giving somebodya leadership coach.
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
So um at you know, a few minutes ago, you were both
discussing about, you know, youwere Lori, you were talking
about the differences in umexecutives.
Now the longevity at theworkplace is not as it was in
the previous century.
So I want to, this is a goodsegue.
I wanted to get to your book.
Leadership revolution, thefuture of developing dynamic
(10:38):
leaders.
In your book, you discuss howtraditional leadership models,
I'm assuming from the previouscentury, are often based on
outdated principles.
So can you expand on what arethese old principles that are
obsolete given this newgeneration, and what modern
approaches do you advocate forin their place?
SPEAKER_02 (10:58):
Yeah.
So many of the leaderdevelopment models and 360
feedback models were developedin the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
At that time, the workenvironment was primarily white
male.
Um, actually, for the first 10years of my coaching practice, I
(11:20):
only coached males because thosewere the only people that were
in the C-suite roles.
Um, so that's changed fairlydramatically.
Also, there was a much narrowernumber of generations in the
workforce.
You maybe had two, possiblythree generations because at
(11:41):
that time people timed out at6065.
Now you have four or fivegenerations in the workplace.
Um, of course, back then youdidn't have nearly as much
technology happening.
So the information overload isvery significant.
And then you also had a muchmore predictable environment.
(12:01):
So, as Taylor was mentioning,like the environment's anything
but predictable now.
You never know what's going tohappen the next day.
So the kind of leadership youneed is a style that can adapt
to the unknown.
You no longer can predict what'sgoing to happen tomorrow as you
could back in 1970, like let'ssay.
(12:23):
I think one of the biggestchanges is the last century, um,
there was a lot of leadershipmodels, like five ways you have
to have these five traits to bea good leader, or you have to
have these three qualities to bea good leader.
And what has happened is peoplehave realized no, that's not
(12:46):
true.
If there was only threequalities, people needed to be
an exceptional leader, everyonewould be an exceptional leader.
So, and those qualities werereally based on a more
male-dominated leadershipapproach, because that nothing
wrong with that, but that waswhat was there at the time.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
So I'm assuming that you are working in depth with
what the person currently is andmaking minor tweaks here and
there are total minor or majorsometimes major tweaks.
SPEAKER_02 (13:19):
But the idea, this the reason why we don't try to
turn non-charismatic people intocharismatic people is because
that only works um when theenvironment is easy.
Under stress, people tend torevert back to their natural way
of being.
So if we can enhance theirnatural way of being, then even
(13:43):
under stress, they can still besuccessful.
And the way we do that is wehelp them change their thinking,
and then we apply behaviors tothe, you know, right out of the
new thinking.
So when thinking and behavior isaligned, then that tends to
stick over time.
(14:03):
And just like if you're a newmanager, you're gonna think
differently than if you're anSVP.
There's a different way ofthinking for each level of
leadership.
And to elevate yourself, youhave to think differently, and
therefore you have to have newbehaviors, behaviors attached to
that thinking.
SPEAKER_00 (14:23):
So a quick follow-up here.
Um so whenever you are workingwith people who are moving into
new situations or they havemoved into new situations and
the culture is different, do yousort of try to figure out if
they are adaptable, if they havean intrinsic desire to adapt?
(14:43):
Or is it that you try and somesucceed and some don't?
SPEAKER_02 (14:47):
Uh, we try to help them adapt.
And here's why.
They already chose that job.
Right?
If we were coaching them beforethey chose that job, we might
want to ask the question (14:58):
is this the right environment for
you?
Right?
But since they already chosethat job, we try to help them to
adapt.
And one of the ways of adaptingis knowing when you can apply a
different approach successfullyand not.
So if you're more a driver, youknow, a go get them
(15:19):
task-oriented style, hey,there's other people in the
organization that you can usethat approach with and they'll
appreciate it.
Right.
And there's people in theorganization who won't
appreciate it, and that's whenyou need to be flexible or adapt
your um activities to that otherstyle.
(15:40):
And part of that just has to dowith knowing it.
Like if you only have oneapproach, you know, that old saw
about if you only have a hammer,everything looks like a nail.
One of the ways to be successfulas the leader is you have a very
wide variety of approaches thatcan be successful in a wide
(16:01):
variety of situations.
So, really, leadership coachingis about expanding your toolkit
and then helping you have thewisdom to know which tool to
apply in which situation for thehighest level of success.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
I'm very curious to know, since you deal with so
many CEOs and senior executives,what percentage of executives
need to change?
And how uh agreeable are they tochanging, or how many executives
you've seen that have totallytransformed the way they
function, either because thereis a new leader on top or
(16:42):
they're gone to a neworganization which has a very
different culture?
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
I mean, a basic capacity model suggests that you
never reach the end of thejourney.
So um theoretically, everyleader could use coaching.
Um, because there's always moreplaces to learn and grow and
adapt, especially with the verychanging, unpredictable
(17:06):
environment.
Um how many executives actuallywant to do that?
Um yeah, um, I would say that itthat number has been going up
and up over time.
Um, and it's still pretty highbecause even 20, 30 years ago I
(17:27):
was coaching those folks.
When you are at the top of anorganization, you don't have to
be the CEO, but let's say you'rein the C-suite or a VP or even a
senior director where you have alot of people underneath you,
you really don't have anybody totalk to that is neutral.
(17:48):
Everybody wants something fromyou.
Your employees want somethingfrom you, your peers want
something from you, the peopleabove you, even if you're the
CEO, the board wants somethingfrom you, the street wants
something from you, your familywants something from you.
Um, it's it's so valuable tothat leader to have a neutral
(18:13):
sounding board, a neutralthinking partner to help you
work through all the complexitythat's going on.
And that person doesn't wantanything from you, they only
want to support you towards yoursuccess.
Like, where else do you get thatin your life?
(18:34):
You don't get that anywhere,even from a friend or a spouse.
They might want to support you,but they're not neutral, right?
They have skin in the games.
They so they want something.
And your coach, especially ifit's outside the organization
coach, you get this veryneutral, non-judgmental ability
(18:55):
to just think through what'sgoing on and make the best
decision from your own frame ofreference.
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
It's lonely at the top and it's hard to find a
neutral party.
SPEAKER_02 (19:07):
Very much so.
So that's why people aremotivated to have a coach.
Like if you look at them, yousee, I think it's about between
80 and 90% of CEOs have a coach.
They may not make that visible,but but they have that person.
SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
Okay, so I want to pivot to um since you are doing
um leadership development atscale, so clearly um there has
to be, and you use a tech-drivenapproach to leadership coaching.
And I wanted to find out whatdoes that mean and how do you
balance the human element ofcoaching with the technological
tools that you have in yourplatform?
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Mm-hmm.
So that's a big question,especially with the popularity
of AI right now.
So um the technology is reallygreat at automating repetitive
tasks.
It's very good at tracking umactivity, even development.
(20:06):
We have a little model calledLeadership Roadmap where we
track insight, actions, andresults.
Um, it's great for tracking goaland goal accomplishment.
Um, it's great for summaries.
It's even good for promptingthinking sometimes, like based
on what you said last time.
Here's some topics, somethinglike that.
(20:28):
But we think that the humanelement is really the key
element to development.
It's the human that can see thepatterns of operation, the
patterns of thinking, and figureout what's keeping those
patterns in place so that thosepatterns can be shifted.
(20:51):
So far, artificial intelligenceor any of the automated tools of
technology have not been able totouch that.
And I also think technologydoesn't touch the relationship.
Like part of the basis of acoaching relationship is deep
trust, right?
(21:12):
Because if you're a CEO or anyleader in an organization, you
have to trust that this personhas your best interest at heart,
that they are helping you bemore successful, you know, that
what they're saying is useful.
And so technology is moregeneralized while that human
(21:33):
relationship is verypersonalized and specific to
those two individuals.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
Absolutely.
And from a leadership lens, youmust change and adapt to this
high tech world.
Otherwise, you won't be able tokeep up.
And so that's part of what Iappreciate very much about your
book is that you are helpingleaders ask the right questions
about what they value, what theybelieve to help them get unstuck
and realize where there might bepoints of resistance.
(22:00):
For their own change.
SPEAKER_02 (22:01):
I mean, at this point, we can't stop technology.
You know, you're not going to beable to stop the river.
So, unless you adapt to it andfind ways to use it in, you
know, in human ways, intechnological ways that blend
together, it's going to be hardto be successful down the road.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
So I'm assuming you're not yet scared of Chat
GPT releasing a leadershipdevelopment bond.
SPEAKER_02 (22:30):
No, in fact, I asked ChatGPT for like, what's the
difference between a coachingbot and a human coach?
And it actually knows thedifference.
It knows it can't do the samething as a human.
But we are sounding forward, weuse AI also.
We use it for our matchingalgorithm where we match a coach
(22:52):
and the participant onrelationship traits first, and
then more functional traits liketheir area, where they live,
that kind of thing, their levelof leadership.
So we use it there.
We also use it to createsummaries from the coaching
conversation so that it'stracked and it can then
(23:14):
eventually in the process rightnow of having it automatically
populate this leadershiproadmap.
So then the participant only hasto go in there and edit.
It doesn't have to start fromscratch.
So we're using in a way it'skind of like to enhance the
tracking and the engagement, butnot in any way to replace it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
Hey, even though this technology is good at
synthesizing and helping us doour work faster, I am still
nervous about spilling my gutsto a coach and having my data
privacy invaded.
And I don't have any controlover that as the coachy.
I'm worried.
SPEAKER_02 (23:51):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, we have lots of uhprocesses in place so that
there's a firewall between thecontent that is being talked
about and the development thatis being talked about.
So those content pieces are notvisible anywhere.
Um, we have collaboration tools,so like a participant can
(24:14):
include their manager, but theydon't have to.
They can mark their goals andtheir development private, or
they can make it public.
So it's all up to the individualbeing coached.
But one reason we try to helpthem uh determine what is uh
public information is because ifthe company is investing and me
(24:39):
as a leader, and I don't inexchange let them know how I'm
developing, it kind of goes intoa black hole.
So it creates a perception ofnot of no development.
So we work with the person beingcoached to create a perception
of development, and that doesmean revealing some information,
(25:01):
but that information is thechoice of the person being
coached to reveal, not thecoach, not the manager, not
anyone in the organization.
And the the organizations wework with understand that
completely.
They never ask us for thatinformation.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
So we are at a university at the School of
Hospitality at BostonUniversity, and we are trying to
educate our students so thatthey turbocharge their careers
and become accomplished leaders.
So those students and youngprofessionals, those students
who are still in college oryoung professionals just
starting out their careers, whatadvice would you give them?
(25:40):
What should they focus theirleadership development skills
on?
What are the growth areas thatthey should focus themselves on
so that they can prepare forfuture leadership roles?
SPEAKER_02 (25:50):
I would suggest first just uh once you feel like
you have your foundationalskills under your belt, start
working on your leadershipcapacities.
And in the book, there's a listof the ones, the kind of
generalized list of the ones weuse, but we got that list from
um the what MBA schools, the top10 MBA schools, um, teach in
(26:17):
terms of the leadershipcapabilities needed from a
business perspective.
So that's a very good list tolook at.
Um, I would say developing yourskills and capabilities would
get you about halfway there.
But to move from being a goodleader to an exceptional leader,
you need capacity.
(26:38):
And one of the primarycapacities is your own internal
compass.
So, especially for youngerstudents, but even older
students, um, to be anexceptional leader, you have to
be able to develop this way thatyou ultimately are making your
(26:59):
own decision that matches wellinternally with what's true for
you.
Um, sometimes this is calledcentral equilibrium.
I always talk about this asbeing the eye of the storm.
So if you see like the bighurricane and it's swirling
around with all thosehundred-mile winds, but in the
(27:20):
center of that is this littleplace where it's calm and the
sun is shining.
And if you see those, like theplane can sometimes fly through
those and right in there, it'slike perfect.
So, as a leader, you have tocultivate this eye of the storm
place that you can stand in sothat when all the pressures and
(27:42):
forces are coming at you fromall directions, you don't lose
your balance, you don't loseyour internal compass, you don't
lose your equilibrium and end upmaking choices that aren't the
best for you or your team oryour organization or your
industry.
(28:02):
So that's a long-termdevelopment process that I think
people can start uh reallyyoung.
I think they can even start itin childhood, depending on you
know the kind of parenting youget.
But it's certainly a lifelong umdevelopment opportunity around
that capacity.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
Lori, that takes experience and maturity.
And sometimes when I askstudents to get a leadership
coach or to consider gettingone, they come back to me and
say, I don't have the money forthat.
What words of wisdom would yougive to those early career
leaders?
SPEAKER_02 (28:37):
One, you know, coaching has been become so
inexpensive these days that Iwould suggest they might just
check.
Is it that they don't have themoney or that that's not a
priority for them?
And something else might be apriority.
So if you really are on theleadership track, um, you might
(28:59):
want to invest in yourselfpretty early on that track.
But the other, you know, therethere's lots of other ways to
develop that are not coaching.
So mentoring is um a reallygreat way.
And you the mentoring can happenin the organization.
You can find your own externalmentors.
(29:22):
I think most of the successfulfolks had very good mentors, and
I'm guessing you have mentorsavailable right inside your
program, as well as ways to helpstudents find mentors outside of
your program.
So that's a generally freeopportunity.
Um, and uh and an up-and-comingleader can have multiple mentors
(29:47):
so they see and hear multiplepoints of view, and all of that
information goes into them,creating their own internal
compass.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
You know, one of the things uh I think um when people
think of mentors is people whoare ahead of them in age and
longevity and seniority in thecompany or some other company.
I think people should be lookingat mentors regardless of where
they are in whatever situations.
Younger people, even youngerexecutives to some extent can be
(30:19):
your mentors.
SPEAKER_02 (30:20):
100%.
They actually named that, theycalled it reverse mentoring,
which is people who are older intheir age and their career path
get mentored by younger peoplewho are more um immersed in
technology or generationalthinking that's not familiar to
(30:42):
that particular leader.
So 100% mentoring can go alldirections.
unknown (30:47):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
I know I have one such mentor right here in this
room.
Taylor has been a great, greatmentor to me as well.
Um before I have a couple of funquestions for you, Lori, but
before I um start on those funquestions, um, what should, why
should people contact SoundingBoard?
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
So Sounding Board offers very high-quality
coaching from early leaders orpre-leaders all the way up
through the C-suite.
And that was our goal (31:16):
provide that access for any leaders in
an organization, because we're aB2B organization.
But the truth is, coaching canbe for any leaders anywhere.
You can be a leader in yourfamily, in your community, in
your university, you know, withyour peers, however.
Um, and we also offer thetechnology to deploy, manage,
(31:42):
and measure all of the coachingand mentoring, really all of the
human-to-human leadershipdevelopment that you're doing.
So small group experiences,one-on-one experiences, whether
that's coaching, mentoring, um,small group training or
development in some other way.
So the software is what lets itscale to larger organizations
(32:07):
where traditionally there hasn'tbeen a lot of measurement around
leader development.
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Some fun questions to end the podcast.
Um, if you could have asuperpower that would enhance
your coaching abilities, whatwould it be and why?
SPEAKER_02 (32:22):
Oh my gosh, if I could just read people's minds,
that would make things so mucheasier.
Um, and one reason is part ofcoaching is naming things that
the individual isn't reallyseeing themselves.
That can be emotions thatthey're feeling, that can be
(32:43):
patterns they're kind of stuckin that they don't see.
Um, it can be ways of thinkingthat are blocking them.
It can uh be a lot of thingsthat the the coach kind of
shines the light on for thatindividual to see more clearly.
That would all be so much easierif I could just read their
(33:05):
minds.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Lori, we know you're a busy leader, but when you do
get a break, what is your go-toactivity?
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Oh, I have a long practice of the martial art
called Tai Chi Chuan.
It's the the non-martial form isthat thing you see older people
doing in the park where they'removing really slow.
Okay, Tai Chi.
And I I've done the martialversion of that for 30 years.
(33:35):
So that includes a slow movingform, um a meditation, as well
as the martial forms, which isuh called push hands.
Um, it's more like sparring,interactive.
And we say um not only does itbring you some of that internal
equilibrium and and peace, um,it also lets you see how you
(34:00):
interact with others in thesparring format.
So it's a very um useful uh toolfor observing yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (34:10):
Fantastic.
Uh Lori, it has been anenlightening conversation and
your insights are trulyvaluable.
Thank you for joining andsharing your vision.
To our listeners, we hope youfound today's discussion as
transformative as I did.
Remember, leadership isn't justa role, it's a revolution.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please rate us so others can
(34:33):
find us and they can benefitfrom your insights.
If you want to join theconversation and share your
thoughts and suggestions, emailme at sardine at bu.edu.
That is sha atb.edu.
Special thanks to the team thatproduced this podcast, producer
Mara Littman, editor and soundengineer Andy Halleck, and the
(34:55):
editor of our leadership series,Dr.
Taylor Baden, and the entireteam at Boston University School
of Hospitality Administration.
To keep up with distinguishedpodcasts, be sure to subscribe
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more about BUSchool of Hospitality by
visiting BU.edu slashhospitality.
(35:16):
Have a wonderful day.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.