November 21, 2025 • 48 mins
Most leaders talk about transforming hospitality. Bashar Wali actually walked away from a $150 million hotel portfolio to do it. The founder of This Assembly, Wali is building a new kind of hospitality ecosystem, one centered on emotion, belonging, and human connection rather than automation and efficiency. In this episode, Dean Arun Upneja speaks with Wali about why the future of hospitality isn’t just digital, but deeply human. From challenging the idea that loyalty can be bought with points to exploring how AI should enhance emotional intelligence, Wali urges leaders to rethink what makes hotels truly memorable.
A celebrated thought leader and frequent speaker at BU SHA, Wali is known for his powerful TED Talk on why “humanity matters more than material luxuries” and for his keynote at the 2024 BU Hospitality Leadership Summit. With more than 20 years of leadership experience at companies like Wyndham International, Starwood, and Provenance Hotels, he continues to inspire the industry with his conviction that hospitality isn’t a transaction; it’s a feeling. And in an AI-driven world, that feeling may be the most valuable asset of all.
The “Distinguished” podcast is produced by Boston University School of Hospitality Administration.
Host: Arun Upneja, Dean
Producer: Mara Littman, Executive Director of Strategic Operations and Corporate Relations
Research and Content Creation: Lan Lu
Marketing: Anne Dawson
Editing: Isabella Laikin and James Leon
Music: “Airport Lounge" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0
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SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Most people in hospitality say they want to
transform the industry.
Today's guest walked away from a150 million portfolio to
actually do it.
Bashar Wali didn't just launchanother management firm.
He created a living ecosystem offive companies designed to
eliminate the silos thatfragment our business.
(00:26):
He's betting that the wayforward isn't more automation or
asset light efficiency, butsoul, story, and the longing for
belonging.
Now that's either a visionarymodel for the future or a
romantic ideal in an industryobsessed with margins, not
meaning.
Today we are going to explorehow creating memorable,
(00:49):
meaningful experiences drivesprofitability, not only on the
PL statement, but also inlasting value for guests and
employees alike.
I'm Arun Upneja, Dean of theBoston University School of
Hospitality, and host of theDistinguished Podcast.
Thank you for joining us today,Bashar.
Delighted.
Thanks for having me.
So first let's talk about thefirm that you founded, This
(01:12):
Assembly.
So what is its mission and whatare the services that you
provide?
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Everybody tries to be everything to everyone
sometimes and fail miserably.
I sort of tell people I'm just ahotel guy.
And my hope and goal is that ifyou've never done a hotel in
your life and you wake up onemorning and you say, I want to
do a hotel, I want to be one ofyour first calls that you make,
to hopefully talk talk you outof it first, but then hopefully
set you on the right path.
(01:39):
And if you've done it for 20years and you're thinking, I
really need to do somethingdifferent, I also want to be one
of those calls.
So think of all the services youneed from inception to
disposition potentially.
Real estate advisory, realestate syndication, hotel
operations.
I hate the word management, bythe way.
I could go for hours about howpassive that word is and cold
(02:00):
for an industry built on caringfor humans, whether they're
teammates or guests.
You don't manage your kids, youdon't manage your friends.
So I hate that word.
I just want to get that outthere.
I have a hotel, uh, hotel designstudio, I have a food and
beverage concepting andmanagement business, and
hopefully more things under thatumbrella, but I'm never gonna
(02:20):
sell you furniture, I'm nevergonna do any of that.
So think about it in the softskills in hospitality that are
arguably more art than science.
There's a lot of greatscientists out there, that's the
space I want to play in.
And I and it's exclusive to wetalk a lot about what kinds of
hotels and we segment them intoupscale and luxury and upper
(02:40):
upscale and select service.
I say I'm in the memorable hotelbusiness.
If you say to me, I really wantto create a boring commodity
hotel so that if someone needs abed and a shower, I could sell
them a bed and a shower, I'm notyour guy.
There's a lot, plenty morepeople more qualified in that
space with me.
But if you believe that a hotelis more than a bed and a shower,
then I'm your guy.
I want to be able to help youcreate that magic that we talk
(03:03):
about.
That's far more art than it isscience.
So broadly, soft skills in thehospitality industry.
I say that into your earliercomment, the PL is
quintessentially what we're infor.
But there's not just one way toget to a great Ebida.
There's lots of different waysto get there.
And I think we're learning thehard way that what we've done
again and again isn't workinganymore.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Okay, so we're gonna uh come back to that, the PL,
which is obviously veryimportant.
But uh, so you are integratingreal estate design, uh,
management, which you hate, butokay, F and B.
So all of these things under oneumbrella.
Most firms specialize.
You're doing an all-in approach.
(03:45):
Um, that obviously leads toefficiencies, but it also leads
to high fixed costs.
And in this margin-obsessedbusiness, how do you convince
investors that this is worthpaying for?
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
And to be clear, those companies operate
separately.
They may reuse the same backoffice services, the
inconsequential things, but it'sdifferent teams doing them
because I agree with you.
You Jack of all trades, masterof none.
There are specialists in thereal estate side that are
different than the operationside, because those are two
different mindsets.
(04:19):
Food and beverage is a wholeother animal.
I've historically always saidhotel people do only one thing
to food and beverage, and that'sscrew it up.
So having a specialist whounderstands that, I view myself
as the common thread betweenthem.
They're under the same umbrella,but not the same company.
So that's an importantdistinction because I agree with
you.
Then you have all these bodiessitting around waiting for the
(04:39):
work to come, and you either endup losing a lot of money in the
process, or you end up trying tocut cost and then not delivering
the kind of service that youwant.
So it's not an easy task, butbecause I treat them as separate
companies, where again I'm thecommon thread, helps me make it
more efficient and helps me makeit more specialized.
(05:00):
So that's really thedistinction.
It's not just one company, theyare different companies under
that umbrella.
And from the name you couldgather this assembly, it was
about saying, I don't knoweverything.
I want to find the F and Bperson who's gonna complete that
piece that's missing of mypuzzle, or the real estate
person, et cetera.
So it's about assembling a greatcollection of incredibly
talented people and bringingthem together.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Now, would you require companies who want to
avail one services from one sideof your business to either all
in or nothing approach?
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Absolutely.
You could it's it's a la carte,you pick what you want.
And the design studio that Ihave won't design every hotel I
do either, because I alsobelieve in chemistry.
Some projects need their ownseparate teams.
Just because I happen to be aninvestor in that company or
control that company doesn'tmean it's the best company to do
the work, even for me.
(05:50):
So I really think of them ascompletely separate entities.
But if I come to you or you cometo me, I'm happy to offer you
the services.
You pick what you want.
One doesn't make the othernecessary or mandatory.
You could pick and choose.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Okay.
So you've now trademarked thephrase longing for belonging.
I have.
But your lead company is calledfuture-proof investments.
So how do you bridge the gapbetween that the the thought
behind that phrase versus thiscompany?
How do you pitch sold toinstitutional investors who want
spreadsheets, not sentiments?
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
Uh it is puzzling to me why we keep thinking of those
two things as mutually exclusiveof each other.
But there's this idea also incharity that you can do well by
doing good, right?
And I'm saying just because I amfocused on the soft emotional
part of hospitality doesn't meanI'm not after the same end
(06:46):
result.
It just means I'm taking adifferent path to it.
And my proposition is when yougo to a hotel, even for one
night, my job is to make youfeel like we are your people.
You have arrived, because Ithink that begets loyalty.
And we could talk about pointsand nausea, and my definition of
points being bribery, notloyalty.
I win your loyalty if I make youfeel that even for one night,
(07:10):
you've arrived your home.
We are your people, you belong.
And the only way I can do thatis through the emotion.
And to me, loyalty, now nowlet's flip to the other side of
our brain, the mathematicalcapitalist side.
Loyalty means you're gonna comeback to me and book direct,
you're gonna forego the OTA,you're not gonna shop around for
the cheapest because you feelthat I'm your guy, right?
(07:32):
When when you go home to yourfamilies, you're not looking for
the family who's gonna give youthe most, you're going to your
family only because you're loyalto them.
So I think fundamentally I'mtaking a different path to get
to the same place, and arguablya better place, because I'm
eliminating this need forshopping around, so to speak,
because I truly am focused onloyalty.
(07:53):
Loyalty out of love andbelonging, not out of bribery
and points.
Challenge me.
I want you to challenge me.
I see it in you.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Well, well, you know, the you know, so okay, um,
let me switch back to, and I wasgonna ask you later, but I'm
gonna ask you right now.
Um everyone knows about your uhpassion for hotel industry in
Manhattan.
You go to a different hotel eachnight, um, and you never stay at
the same hotel every night.
So is that how how does, and youknow, let's say that you check
(08:25):
in a hotel at 4 p.m.
and you have a meeting across uhtown at 5 p.m.
So you go dump the stuff in yourin your room and you're out,
come back at 11 p.m.
and you're checking out tomorrowmorning.
How does the hotel have anopportunity to create a
connection with you?
And sometimes I don't want aconnection, I just want a room
to stay because I've beentraveling, you know, 20 hours
(08:48):
and I just don't want anyconnection.
I just want to go sleep and goout my way the next day.
So if that's what I want, thenyou trying to create a
connection, isn't that likecounterintuitive to what the
customer wants?
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
All you need to do is make your hotel memorable
enough, because if you make itmemorable enough for me, I will
go tell the world about it.
I will become your biggestadvocate and your brand
evangelist.
So loyalty to me and belongingto me is about touching me in a
way that enables me to take yourexample and use it elsewhere.
But for guests day in and dayout, your job is to create
(09:24):
long-term loyalty.
And again, people keep confusingthis idea of connection with
time and hugs and spending timetelling you about the spa and
doing it.
It doesn't have to be any ofthat.
I it could be invisible.
Let me give you a real lifeexample.
I like my room, I call it morguetemperature year-round.
I want it 64 degrees.
(09:44):
I don't care if I'm in the NorthPole, I want my room 64 degrees.
I travel obsessively.
You would think once ever, andI'm top status on almost all the
brands.
And with that naming one, I'mvery top status on one of them.
I've probably stayed in 500 oftheir hotels.
They always brag about theirdatabases and they know their
(10:06):
guests and they have all thisinformation on their guests.
You would think once ever in 500plus stays, once ever, one of
those hotels would remotely froma desktop, they don't have to go
to the room, change thetemperature on my room to my
temperature that I like and takecredit for it.
Leave a little note that says,You're crazy, it's winter, but
your temperatures on 64 degreesenjoyed.
(10:29):
If they ever did that once, Iwould literally be standing on
public stations globally talkingabout how incredible they are
and how they are my peoplebecause they cared about me and
they showed that they took thetime and effort to care about
me.
Not once, not once.
Now, it's been done otherplaces, mostly independence, and
I could share some of thosestories, but that's ultimately
what it's about.
And again, people confuse this.
(10:51):
I tell people, back to thelonging for belonging.
I've been happily married for along time.
I go to a hotel sometimes, and Idon't want to hang out in my
room, but I have work to do, Idon't want to go out.
I want to go sit in the lobbynext to you or next to anyone,
because there's warmth in thatsort of human thing.
We're sitting next to eachother.
I may never say a word to you.
(11:11):
But the idea of a connection,that's a connection.
I think of that as a connection.
And I think that's where hotelsfail is we want to automate it
so much, great, because that'swhat you want after a long day
of travel, but I could stillfind a way to touch you
electronically.
By the way, I can do it with abot if I'm smart enough about it
to make you feel that certainthing.
(11:33):
But we fail at it miserablybecause we owe, look, the world
is no longer binary, right?
We used to think everything wasblack and white, wrong and
right, brand versus independent.
It's not like that anymore.
And what is meaningful to you isdifferent than what's meaningful
to me.
So as long as I can push that, Ilove Maslow's hierarchy of need,
as long as I can push thattranscendence or
(11:54):
self-actualization in any way,and I guess give you a simple,
very automated example with thetemperature, that's the kind of
connection I'm talking about.
Because that tells me we seeyou.
You matter, you're somebody.
You're not just anothercheck-in, you are somebody.
And that's a distinction becauseI agree with you.
Some people don't want it.
They want the fully automated,great.
I can't force what I want onyou.
(12:16):
I have to be emotionallyintelligent enough to read my
audience and give them what theywant.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
What an indictment of our industry.
All of these big chains, wewon't name any of them, and not
a single one is able to giveBashar his 64 degree.
So next time he's checking intoyour hotel in New York City,
please, please fix histemperature in his room before
he shows up.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, so um so that's that's umI that's I'm kind of uh like I
(12:45):
said, it's it's pretty bad forall of these companies with huge
databases.
Um that actually points toanother um uh sort of complaint
I have, which is even forhighest year guests like you,
who have stayed repeatedly andhave the highest status, they
don't really book the rooms orthey don't really reserve or
(13:06):
hard uh you reserve the roomsbefore you show up.
So when you come in, whateverthe best room available, they'll
give it to you.
That's pretty sad.
SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
That they aren't reserving the rooms.
I mean, look, I'm an I'm anoperator, I get it.
It's not that easy, right?
The the room type isn't ready.
There's lots of excuses as towhy.
And again, I want to besensitive and smart and not
romantic as you suggestedearlier about this whole thing.
There are practicalimplications.
(13:38):
Labor is really hard, we can'tfill the positions, and if we
do, it's a transient audience,they come and go.
You can't really train them theright way.
But in 2025, in the golden ageof technology, we had the
dot-com boom, now we have the AIboom.
You would think these bigcompanies, back to the data for
a minute.
I am shocked the big three, bigfour, big five, don't have
(14:00):
literally five MIT PhDs, datascientists sitting there saying,
okay, let's see everything wecan find out about this guest,
and how can we use thatinformation to his or her
advantage, but then in a waythat benefits us to create
long-term loyalty.
By the way, all these peoplethat are top status on this one,
they're also top status on thatone and that one and that one.
(14:23):
So ultimately, they're notmaking their decision based on
their loyalty, they're making iton convenience.
But if you could find a way tounderstand their behavior and
act upon said behavior, soagain, I'm shocked that they
don't have data scientists indepartments studying how to
dissect the data.
But ultimately, being able tounderstand your guest thoroughly
(14:45):
and figure out how toaccommodate what they want is
what's gonna build that loyalty.
And ultimately, the only way todo that is through really
understanding guest behavior.
It's less about what kind ofmint I want on the pillow and
more about what are the painpoints.
And I was gonna mention when Ilook to hire someone for any
position, literally, I have twoboxes I need to check.
(15:06):
That's it.
No offense to your school or myschool or all the fancy schools.
I have two boxes I want tocheck.
I want you to have common sense,which sadly is exceedingly
uncommon, and I want you to haveemotional intelligence.
And the idea behind emotionalintelligence is when you walk in
the door and I see you, the onlytraining I want to give that
employee is to look at you andjudge what this guest, this
(15:31):
human want.
If I'm showing up holding mycredit card and my license,
dashing to you, don't tell meabout anything.
You should be smart enough toknow this guy wants to be moved
along.
Someone else shows up with theirbag and they're shuffling
through their stuff looking forthe credit card and they're
complaining about their flightand their Uber and all of that,
that person needs empathy.
So if we can find a way toreally hone in on this idea of
(15:53):
emotion, by the way, which isrelevant to every aspect of our
lives.
It's relevant to relationships,it's relevant.
When I walk into a store and I'mtalking to a clerk in a store, I
want to be emotionallyintelligent to him and her like
I would want them to me.
I just think we focus on thewrong things.
We've we've come to the worldwhere we want our people to be
robots, ladies and gentlemenserving ladies and gentlemen,
(16:16):
rather than being humans.
I tell my people, your job is tomake someone feel welcome.
How you say hello?
Who am I to tell you how to sayhello?
Because the ladies and gentlemenserving, ladies and gentlemen,
if I'm all formal and goodafternoon, sir, you may turn me
off versus someone who wants tobe greeted warmly.
And ultimately, again, those arethe moments that I think create
loyalty.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
You know, it's very interesting.
Um, this talk about humanconnections and emotional
intelligence.
So you probably believe thatcommon sense and human uh
emotional intelligence cannot betaught.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
Common sense, I believe, cannot be taught.
But you and I need to have awork session to say, can we
create an emotional intelligenceaptitude test?
I don't think it can beimplanted in someone who doesn't
have it, but I think it can berefined.
So I would like you and I wouldlike BU to be the school that
creates the first test foremotional intelligence aptitude.
(17:11):
And when you take that test onthe application, if you fail it
miserably, you're gonna rankvery low in my hiring criteria.
There's another interestingthing I learned recently, and I
forget her name now, thescientist who says, We humans,
you could be a CIA agent for 50years and you still cannot help
yourself.
There are micro expressions wemake in our faces that are just
common to all humans, regardlessof language.
(17:34):
And if you truly understandthose and learn from them, it's
a game changer.
For example, the one I remember,if I'm talking to you and I'm
selling you something, sellingyou anything, by the way,
including myself, even inrelationships, the minute your
pupils dilate, you've alreadybought what I'm selling you.
And if I can look intently inyour eyes and not be distracted
on my phone or thinking aboutthe next sentence, the minute
(17:56):
your eye, your pupils dilate, Ishould stop talking because
you've already bought what I'mselling you.
Our problem is we don't and wekeep talking, and then you gloss
over and I lose you.
And there's a hundred of thosemicro expressions, like
literally how your nose movesand how your lips and eyelids
move.
I would rather spend my timefocusing on that.
Assuming again, technology hasbecome so easy, you don't really
(18:17):
need to.
People are checking inthemselves.
I don't think you can teachcommon sense, and I don't think
you can implant emotionalintelligence if it's not there,
but you can refine it if it'sthere.
All I need is a hint of it, andI'll help refine it.
And the best way to do it is tomodel the behavior.
And I say, if I expect you to bewarm and friendly to everyone
who walks through the door andyou work for me, what message am
(18:39):
I sending to you if I don'ttreat you that way?
And if I'm not paying attentionto your microexpressions and
your emotions.
And I love the simple examplewhere I we tell our employees
that bathroom floor in thelobby, I better be able to eat
off the floor, but your bathroomcan look like a war zone.
Again, what kind of message areyou sending?
So often we preach, but we don'tpractice, and that's lost.
And generationally now, likethis next generation, Z or
(19:02):
Alpha, they're not gonna listento you, right?
Like don't expect them to unlessyou treat them like they want to
be treated.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Right.
Okay, so um I've got to becareful here.
I'm getting so wrapped up inyour answers, I'm um I'm I'm uh
forgetting.
But but so so when this uh Iwant to get back to the human
connection.
And interestingly, with LLMs andAI coming in, I think a robot uh
will you will be able to programa robot to have that common
(19:31):
sense and to and to be able toread those expressions much
better than human beings.
So the micro increase in thepupils, the the small twitching
of the nose or the skin,dilation, whatever, which we
cannot even, I think they'll beable, they'll be more
perceptible to these than anyhuman being can.
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
My theory on this, and again, I'm an early adopter,
like I talk about tourism by theway, and I say, look, we're
relatively AI immune for thetime being, for the time being,
not not never, for the timebeing, you can't feel the sand
between your toes or ha feel theocean water spray on your face
unless you go there, standthere, and experience it
(20:11):
yourself.
Someday we will lie in bed, puta VR set on our head, and we
will get that feeling.
Someday, not today.
I, for the time being, saysomewhat disagree with you.
Yes, you can have a camera thatcan read that expression and
tell you pupils dilated, alarm,alarm, stop talking.
I get it.
I think for the time being,emotional intelligence, not
(20:31):
common sense.
Common sense is easy becausecommon sense is fact patterns.
If one plus one equals two, thendo this, right?
That's fact to me, is how Ithink of common sense.
Emotional intelligence, in myopinion, for the time being, is
exclusive to mammals.
I don't think we'll ever get thekind of warm and fuzzy I get for
mammals, a dog that I would getfrom a robot dog, from a human
(20:54):
that I would get from a robothuman, even in human skin,
dolphin for that matter, right?
So it's really exclusive tomammals.
I'm not saying never, but Ithink it's gonna take a long
time before robots, and ifrobots now have emotional
intelligence, we don't needhumans anymore.
Right?
I mean, ultimately that's abigger conversation.
But I will say for the next 10,15, 25 years, until the
(21:18):
technology becomes so advanced,we can use AI to help us
mitigate the need for humans topay that much attention because
we have a transient population.
And maybe there's cameras as youwalk in the door that
immediately give me a warningthat says this guest coming in
is not happy, right?
I treat them accordingly.
But I think emotionalintelligence, for the time
(21:39):
being, is exclusive to mammals.
I hope.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
So I hope we can probably use technology.
In the old days, I used to saywhen a guest is approaching you,
let's say you are in arestaurant in a hotel, and they
have the key in their pocket.
And so on your host stand, it'lldisplay what room this guest is
in.
SPEAKER_00 (22:00):
Better yeah on that subject, if I may.
Um, I have friends at Getty'sdesign group working on uh a
project called the Hotel ofTomorrow.
This can happen today if wedecided to make it happen.
My phone is in my pocket.
Literally, when I'm pick adistance, half a mile away from
your hotel, you should know I'mcoming.
There is a system that will tellyou I'm coming.
Retail, by the way, I no longerlook at hotels for inspiration
(22:23):
for what's next.
I look at retail.
Because retail was at the vergeof dying and they had to
reinvent themselves.
And back to what I was sayingearlier, necessity is the mother
of all of all inventions, isthey really had to survive and
created all these things.
You think about Instagram, wejokingly talk about it.
I think about skis, I get skisin my feed, I press a button,
I've bought skis.
Brilliant what they've done.
(22:44):
So this hotel of tomorrow, theidea behind it is my phone is in
my pocket.
You know I'm approaching.
When I walk into the lobby, youknow who I am, a photo of me
pops up.
You shouldn't tell me anything.
You should say, keys on yourphone, done, keep walking.
When I walk down the hallway, Ilike the smell of gardenia.
Gardenia will spray in the air.
The art on the wall will changeto my liking.
(23:06):
The lighting will change to myliking.
When I walk in the room, thetemperature will go down
automatically.
The TV will come on on BBC,which is what I like, and it'll
be on.
That technology exists today.
As you know, as an industry,we're generally late adopters.
I think all these things arecoming and it's going to make
the experience better andbetter.
The fundamental problem with allof this, however, in my opinion,
(23:27):
kind of like cool design.
So I was early in the indiehotels, and all we had to do is
serve you local coffee in thelobby, and your mind was blown
because no one else was doingit.
While now the Hampton Inn hasrotating art galleries.
Captioned by Hyatt has a tattooartist in the lobby.
Cool has been has becomeubiquitous.
The playing field has beenleveled.
(23:49):
All these simple little thingsthat we used to do to make us
different are no longerrelevant.
They're expected now.
Like back in the day, farm totable was a thing.
Now imagine a restaurant thathas a big sign on the front that
says, we get all our frozenstuff from Cisco, come eat here.
No one would even walk in thedoor.
So what was once special hasbecome a table stake.
So the only way, in my opinion,that we can differentiate is
(24:11):
that the one thing that wecontrol the most, and that's the
emotion.
And making some hospitalityisn't what you do or what you
deliver.
That's service.
It's how you make people feel.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
I I know that you've said at one point that we are in
retail business.
Now that's a provocativestatement for someone who
champions vulnerability andhuman connection.
So is that your candid truth?
Or is that somehow you're tryingto future proof hotels?
How do you reconcile those?
SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
I love these tough questions.
Well done.
Uh, we are absolutely in theretail business.
We erroneously keep saying we'rein the guest service business.
Guest service is what we do toaccomplish the goal of selling
my perishable inventory.
I have a room for sale tonight.
If I don't do not sell thatroom, it is gone forever.
It's not like a t-shirt that ifI don't sell today, I could
always sell tomorrow or the nextday.
(25:00):
That room on this date is goneforever.
Now, in order to be a successfulretailer, you need an angle
because everybody's sellingt-shirts.
How is your t-shirt different?
And the only way you can makeyour t-shirt different without
losing your behind on the bottomline by keep by throwing more
marketing dollars and morequality and more and more.
And you're seeing this in someof the brands, by the way, now.
(25:22):
Like some of the brands thatwere solid three and a half
star, they're not happy withthree and a half star, and they
keep wanting to upgrade andupgrade and upgrade, and it all
gets diluted at the top andeverything becomes the same.
So if you want to sell at-shirt, well, I use I'll use
this example from retail.
And please, ladies, don't hateon me for this.
And if the boyfriend's husband'sspouse's partners are hating,
(25:44):
don't blame me for it.
What is the difference between aBirkin bag and a coach bag?
It's a vessel that holds yourthings made out of leather.
One is$30,000, one is$300.
But when you hold that Birkin,it makes you feel a certain way.
What's the difference between aBMW and a Toyota?
It's the same thing.
It provides the same function.
It takes you from point A topoint B, but one makes you feel
(26:06):
a certain way when you're in it.
So we've managed to sell theemotion of the thing more
importantly than the thing.
And I think similarly, a hotelbecomes more valuable if it made
you feel a certain way.
Not just on the quality scale,but even broadly.
When you have two hotels side byside, equally qualified, equally
designed, equally, equally,equally, the one you're going to
(26:26):
go to is the one that resonateswith you more.
When you make friends, you cantake two, you can take twins who
are identical in every way,including education, and they're
going to be differentpersonalities.
So the way you sell more of yourt-shirt is the personality and
the feeling that t-shirt givessomeone when they wear it.
That's how I think about how youdifferentiate yourselves.
Because otherwise, we're havingthis race to the Ibida bottom to
(26:50):
zero, because the only way weknow how to compete with the
next person is to throw morethings, which is unsustainable
ultimately.
Yet the one thing that reallydoesn't cost us anything, we
continue to ignore, which isagain focusing on our teammates.
Marriott's quote, by the way,has never been more true than
today.
Take care of your people whowill take care of your customers
who will take care of you.
We've forgotten the take care ofyour people part.
(27:12):
We're only focused on takingcare of your customers, but
everybody's doing the samething.
So how do you win?
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Okay, so um, so I'm assuming just a quick follow-up
on this.
So when you say longing forbelonging, you're obviously also
including employees.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
100%.
More importantly, than guests.
And forgive the French.
I'm working on this.
I love quote, I love coiningterms.
Give us shit ability.
You and I have two hotels sideby side, equal in every way.
In every way.
What you pay and the benefitspackage and all that stuff is
market driven.
You can't pay less than market.
You kind of have to float withmarket.
(27:47):
And if you do more than market,you're resetting the market and
driving yourself and yourcompetitors down to zero.
So I say, similar to the idea ofhow do you make a guest feel
when they come in, why should Ipick you over his hotel?
Your values need to align withmine.
I need to know that you standfor something more.
(28:08):
I love Simon Sinek and the ideaof don't tell me what you do,
don't tell me how you do it,don't tell me where you do it,
don't tell me any of that stuff.
Tell me why do you do what youdo?
And if you don't give employeesa reason to care, you're just a
commodity.
You're, I need a job, he has ajob, and he has a job.
Or I'll just pick the one that Ifeel.
But if you resonate with methrough your actions, not your
(28:28):
words, this is not a marketingcampaign.
And you can't please everyone,obviously, but you have to stand
for something and believe in it.
People use the word authentictoo often.
I hate that word, it meansnothing anymore.
Authenticity to me is anunapologetic point of view.
If you're gonna care about theenvironment, do it.
Don't talk about it, do it.
If you're gonna care about yourlocal community, do it.
(28:48):
If you're gonna care about youremployees and read their micro
expressions and read theiremotions, do it.
Because that that becomes so itcreates inertia and it becomes
reputationally the place to goto.
So ultimately, everything we'retalking about, I don't
distinguish between a guest andan employee.
They're the same.
I'd argue the employee is farmore important because without
them, the guest doesn't getanything.
(29:08):
So yeah, all that applies to theemployees absolutely.
And it's a value system.
But you just have to have a setof value that you practice, not
you preach only.
You have to practice that peoplewere will connect to and not
everyone, but at least now youstand for something.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
Okay.
Uh let's move on to um you'vebuilt your brand on being a
rebel, but rebels stare downfrom the outside, whereas you
are now building from the insidewith capital partners, staff.
And so are you still disruptingor are you laying a new
foundation for how we need to doour business?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
I hate the word disruption.
We use it too loosely, and whatdoes it really mean at the end
of the day?
What we do is not rocketscience, right?
I mean, really think about whatwe do.
It is definitely not rocketscience.
So I do not think of myself as adisruptor.
I'm just a loud mouth who saysthings that others are afraid to
say.
When I call, again, the demiseof big brands and the ubiquity
(30:03):
of everything we do and thissort of copy-paste mentality
that everyone does.
I think being more open-mindedabout doing things differently
and not doing the same thingwe've done for the last hundred
years and accepting expectingdifferent results, the traveler
profile is changing.
Like for I'll give you anotherexample.
Young families are affluent.
They want to travel with theirkids, and they're now relegated
(30:24):
to either amenity less Airbnbbecause it's more conducive to
their travel, or so lessextended stay.
Yet they have lots of money anddiscretionary might to spend.
Why aren't we focusing on it?
Well, because we've never donekids before.
We're a business hotel.
Well, what does that mean?
Why aren't we focusing on thatgroup?
Why aren't we focusing on womentravelers?
Why aren't we?
(30:45):
Why aren't we?
Why aren't we?
So we use the word disruptor.
This is very elemental.
There's nothing disruptive aboutit.
The only times our industry hasbeen disrupted thus far, in my
opinion, since the beginning oftime.
Airbnb, which taught us how tobe more on our feet.
And I think AI will, in duecourse, is the next sort of
(31:05):
internet.
It will disrupt what we do.
But ultimately, nothing we'vedone because the business at its
very base, it's simple.
We have someone who needsshelter.
We provide shelter, but shelteris a commodity.
We've learned that we can't bein the commodity business
because we'll lose.
So we've become experiential.
And that's what we're after now.
So I don't think I'm adisruptor.
(31:27):
And I think I'm just sort ofsaying I'm on the inside.
I didn't study this academicallyonly.
I went to hotel school, butthat's not where I'm on the
ground watching what'shappening, and I'm a keen
observer of human behavior.
I hate trends.
Trends by definition have ashelf life.
I'm just watching howgenerationally people are
interacting with this hotelexperience now and what they're
(31:48):
looking for.
And I have my eye on what theywant.
SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
I want to go back to AI, and you said that that'll be
the third disruptor in thefuture.
Um so over time, AI is replacinghuman labor.
Um even at this point, uh, ahuge percentage, 60-70% of
hospitality tasks can be done byAI.
Uh so but but but you are sayingthat tech should serve humans
(32:15):
and not replace them.
But my question is, at whatpoint does that become
unsustainable, where humanbeings are just so expensive in
terms of you know labor that youknow you have AI doing better
jobs.
So at what point do you thinkthat'll happen?
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
I've often said and continue to, technology should
remove friction.
If I today need three people atthe front desk, I know I won't
need all three soon enoughbecause technology is AI is as
you know, AI has been around,machine learning, et cetera.
We're just using that termbroadly.
(32:53):
Robotics, by the way, are real.
I was talking to someone earlierabout how this company is
finally figured out the issuewith dexterity with robotics,
because they can't carry a lift,they're using octopuses,
example, and doing this sort oftentacle kind of thing that
folds around, that can pick upan egg and move it around.
There will be a robot who willmake the bed one day and clean
the bathroom.
Like they're already there, butit's gonna get further and
(33:14):
further refined.
But the idea eventually is if Iliterally can walk into a hotel
that has zero people in it, andI think ultimately removing the
humans completely will eliminatethe idea of feeling and emotion
and Maslow's transcendence.
So I think technology willsubstantially reduce the number
of people you want, but I hopethat then it allows me to what
(33:36):
few people are left to hirehighly emotionally intelligent
people, highly engaged people,so that for those who want it,
and to your earlier comment, andI don't disagree with you, this
is not one size fits all.
To those who want it, they canhave it and engage with it.
I mean, listen, you can go to abar today and have a robotic
bartender.
Is that a bar you want to godrink at?
Part of the magic of going to abar is chatting with the
(33:57):
bartender.
Do I go to Starbucks or mycoffee shop and spend$8 on a
latte that I can press a buttonat home and get because I need
caffeine, my drug?
No, I do it for the experienceof going to the coffee shop.
Sean McPherson, one of my hotelheroes, uh, he's responsible for
our great hotels in New York,said, Look, we go to these
places, restaurant, coffee shop,hotel, because we need a respite
(34:19):
in our day.
And a respite in our day that iscompletely humanless, it's not a
respite anymore.
It's a commodity.
That coffee that I'm gonna go tothe coffee shop and press a
button to get, I'll do it athome, press a button and get it.
So, what's interesting about AIfor me, removing the friction,
the most interesting thing I'mspending time on right now in AI
(34:39):
is true dynamic pricing.
Let's use this example.
I want a latte at 10 a.m.
It's eight dollars.
You want a latte, but you can'tafford to pay$8.
That latte should not be$8 at 2o'clock in the afternoon.
You should be able to buy it forhalf price.
And if we deploy dynamic pricingthe right way, I'm happy because
(35:00):
I got it when I want it, becauseI'm willing to pay for it.
You're happy because you got it,you got it when you can afford
it, and the establishment ishappy they're selling more
lattes.
Uh, you want to sit by thewindow at 7 p.m.
on Saturday with your wife fordinner, your price that you pay
should be different than theprice my wife and I pay sitting
by the bathroom at 5 o'clock onMonday.
That's the exciting part aboutAI for me.
(35:22):
Removing the friction, truedynamic pricing to the benefit
of all, those who have it, thosewho don't, and the
establishment.
But this idea of becoming fullyautomated, you're like a hotel
is like a vending machine.
I need a bedroom, I go get abedroom.
If that's what you want, andsome people will want that, that
option should be available.
But when we talk aboutexperiential, to me,
(35:44):
experiential is human.
Think about this.
You could right now, I was at abaseball game on Saturday,
Yankees socks, and this girlsitting in front of me, who saw
me looking at her eventually,was literally talking to an AI
bot, lovey dovey.
Is that the future you want tolive in?
And I am not being romanticabout my Gen X or anything like
(36:04):
that.
I get it.
Technology is great.
But if that's the word we'regetting to, then it's the end of
the human race because we don'tneed ourselves, we don't need
humans anymore.
And that's the romantic partthat I hang on to is this idea
that there's warmth inhuman-to-human that a robot for
the foreseeable future, notnever, will not replace.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
I was right.
You have a romantic streak inyou.
Um okay, so do you have a redline, at least for now, that in
the foreseeable future you willnot replace that one particular
job profile with an AI or arobot?
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
I think the we'll call them, I hate all this
terminology, but sort of thereception, the welcome staff,
the bartender, the waiter if youwant an experience or waitress,
if you don't want to just pressa button and get some and have a
robot deliver it to you.
I think again, those the placeswhere I want to interact with
(36:58):
someone because I want to talkto them about their opinions.
I want to, I want to ask themabout their hopes, dreams, and
aspirations, because that's partof this magic of human
connection.
I think those front-touchperson, but you know, do we need
five people in accountinganymore?
Do we need seven people inrevenue management anymore?
Do we need five people in SEOand PPC anymore?
(37:18):
Probably not.
But I am a believer also thatour business is far more art
than it is science, right?
So I think there's always thishuman touch that has to come
into play.
We used to talk about it all thetime in revenue management.
I don't care what the um RMStells me, there's an art to it
sometimes.
You know, you make adjustmentsaccordingly.
(37:39):
But I think a lot of the sort ofrepetitive accounting, data
entry, all that will go away.
And part of the magic, again, ifI need five people to help me
understand who's walking throughthe door, I don't anymore.
I need one person to act on whatthe system gives them and
verifies it.
So for those who believe a hotelis a commodity, and there are
those who believe that, they canhave it.
(38:01):
But anyone else who wants morethan just a commodity, I think
you still need that.
Knock, knock, who's there, givethem a big hug and welcome them
in, and then let them do theirthing.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
So at the end of the day, um what I hear from you is
that uh if it becomes acommodity business, then it's
just going to be okay, what isthe cost?
What is the return on capitalyou want, and that's the price.
But you think that with thishuman connection, you can drive
better returns?
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
100% because the value proposition increases and
you're willing to pay more forsomething that makes you feel a
certain way than just again,back to the fashion example and
the car example.
If if you think of, and somepeople do, and again, there's no
no binary here.
Some people say a car is avessel that takes me from point
A to point B.
(38:47):
I don't care what it is, whatyear, what color, what brand,
what make.
I just want it to be realreliable, and I want to
understand my cost of ownership.
If that's what you want in ahotel, price and location, how
about it?
That's okay.
Anyone else who wants more isgonna look for that.
Because what else, remember,when you're buying a hotel,$100
(39:07):
or$1,000, you're taking nothinghome with you.
Maybe you steal some towels, butyou're taking nothing else home
with you.
And if I don't leave you with amemory, what's the value?
Like a car you buy, you havesomething, you buy a watch, you
have something tangible that youkeep with you.
But going to the theater, reallythat is the example, right?
I think of hotels as theater.
(39:28):
You're going to the theater forthe experience.
You're not taking anything homewith you, not one thing but that
memory and the experience.
And a theater without actors,why are you going there?
Right?
I mean, that that's sort of howI think of it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
So I wanted to turn back to um when I asked you the
question about uh longing forbelonging for employees, and you
gave this uh passionateresponse, but why you so
strongly believe that applies toemployees as well.
But then you also highlightedthat uh the the wages that are
being paid to employees are kindof sort of determined by market.
(40:02):
So you can go to above, too muchabove, too much below.
Uh, with the demographicchallenge facing our country,
um, you know, we uh the wages weprovide are pretty much on the
lower side of what you can getin many other industries where
you are able to leverage um yourlabor into much higher return.
(40:24):
So, you know, simple example isyou take um Google's revenue and
divide it by the number ofemployees, you get the revenue
per employee, it's gonna be manyorders of magnitude higher than
uh the average revenue per hotelemployee that you can get.
So how do we then in thisdemographic marketplace attract
(40:45):
and retain high-qualityemployees, those with common
sense and those with uhemotional intelligence?
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
This is a very big question, as you know, that
inevitably is gonna gopolitical.
We've in the United States ofAmerica, we've created this
culture that everyone insiststheir children go to school,
college, and they in and nowwhen they go to college, they
all want to be investmentbankers and lawyers.
Nobody, nobody, I've never met aperson who said, Oh, I really
(41:12):
want my kid to graduate and goclean hotel rooms.
So the answer to our labor woestoday, unfortunately, the only
answer is immigration.
We are desperate for them, wewant them.
No one in our country wants todo it.
We're not having enough kids inthis country anymore, so the
labor pool here is shrinking.
So until we fix immigrationthoughtfully and methodically,
(41:33):
and I'm an immigrant, I came tothis country legally.
I think legal and thoughtfulimmigration is the way.
I do not want wide open borders,come one, come all.
We need immigrants in thiscountry to do these jobs because
we're not doing them.
We don't want to do them, ourchildren don't want to do them.
So that's on sort of the lowerend of the market scale, and it
is a market wage, and it is avery complicated question
(41:54):
because in a lot of thesecities, even at the living wage
that we pay, I, you know, I'm onthe West Coast, we pay very
healthy living wages, forget theminimum wage, it's not even a
conversation anymore.
It's not enough.
And this goes now to the demiseof the middle class and the cost
of housing and all these issuesthat I'm not even remotely smart
enough to address.
But again, back to my example ofyou and I have two hotels side
(42:17):
by side, we pay the same, wegive the same benefits, we do,
we do, we do, we do, do.
The only thing I can dodifferent than you that doesn't
cost me any more money is toactually care for my employees,
treat them with respect, ensurethat their needs are attended
to.
So we're starting to think aboutit in different buckets.
And we say there's generallythree buckets.
There is the person who wantsgrowth and career and loves this
(42:39):
industry.
There's the person who wants astable job.
They want to know thereliability of the schedule, the
reliability of the work, thereliability of the pay.
That's all they want.
On demand, go to work when youwant, stop working when you
want, go back when you want.
That's what they're getting usedto and what they're seeing out
there.
And back to AI and technologyand disruption, we keep using
technology, always thinkingguests facing, but we ignore the
(43:01):
teammates facing.
So I believe, and again, by theway, I want to be clear, what I
preach isn't what you find ateveryone in my hotel.
This is all aspirational for allof us, me included.
These are complicated issues.
But I really think we need tofigure out how to use technology
to attend to our different, youcan't make everyone happy, but I
sort of, in my opinion, brokethose buckets for you, how I see
them.
And now let's say, okay, how dowe deal with each one of those
(43:24):
buckets?
And how do we create care forthose who now, the aspiring
model who says, I love this job,they let me go when I want to.
If I have a last-minuteaudition, they let me, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
She's gonna stay loyal to you.
You can't pay less, right?
You can always pay more andreset the market.
But I think it's the soft skillsback to hotels and commodities.
(43:44):
If I make you feel like youbelong here, you've arrived,
this is your family, you'regonna be loyal because it's the
same room here or here, it's thesame job here or here.
So I think it's all about thisidea of feeling cared for.
I can't say this enough.
This is about selfactualization.
And transcend us, and thatcomes, in my opinion, from being
seen.
We don't see people anymore.
(44:05):
You're an employee or astatistic.
You're a guest, you're a VIP.
A VIP is a statistic, that's nota person.
I want to know that personindividually, not just that
they're employee number 702 orguest VIP number seven.
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Aspirational goals for all of us.
Very laudable.
But let me also say, I'm also animmigrant.
I came to this country.
I think the point you made aboutthe demographics, if you look at
the replacement, you know, thenumber of babies born per um, we
are below replacement.
And we just have to look atother countries that are way
(44:41):
below us to see what's happeningin those countries.
Japan, South Korea, and prettymuch all of Western Europe.
SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
So And again, immigration is we're not gonna
go make people all of a suddenhave seven kids.
That's not gonna happen.
Legal, thoughtful immigration.
This country is built byimmigrants from its very
inception, and we need them tocontinue to grow and continue to
be the great power that we areand the great bastion of hope
(45:08):
for the world that we are.
We we should be all honored andlucky that so many people are
knocking on our doors and wantto walk in.
We want them, we need them.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
Okay, so after this heavy discussion, let's loosen
things up with a quickfireround.
Um, first thing that comes toyour mind, a word or a phrase,
doesn't have to be a longanswer.
In fact, it shouldn't be long.
What's the strangest hotelamenity you've ever seen that
has actually worked?
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
Walk of shame kit at the Roosevelt Hotel in
Hollywood.
Don't bring your kids there.
I think it's a brilliant idea.
Well done, except when you bringyour eight-year-old daughter and
she asks you what a walk ofshame is.
It has a t-shirt, a toothbrush,flip-flops.
I thought it was brilliant.
SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
If you were a hotel role, GM, bellhop, concierge,
housekeeper, who would you beand why?
SPEAKER_00 (45:57):
I loved being a front office manager because it
was the most guest-facing,guest-engaging.
It was never a dull moment.
I got yelled at a lot.
I got things thrown at me a lot,but it was such an incredible
experience.
And I had a rule with valetsthat if there are 10 kinds of
cars that showed up, I'm the onewho procs them.
That was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (46:18):
One thing almost every hotel gets wrong, other
than not getting the 64 degrees.
SPEAKER_00 (46:24):
Overthinking what we want when what we guests want is
really, really simple.
We just want empathy.
When I show up off of a red eyeand you tell me, check in is at
three.
I just want you to care that I'mexhausted and I've been on a red
eye.
You don't have to do all youhave to do is convince me enough
that you care.
You don't actually have to doanything about it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:43):
Yeah, you're being very polite.
Um my reaction would have been alittle bit more extreme.
Um okay.
The last question hospitalitybuzzword or phrase you would ban
forever, and what would youreplace it with?
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
Disruption.
And I would replace it withcritical thinking and
innovation.
SPEAKER_01 (47:00):
Fantastic.
Bashar, thank you so much forsharing your vision and
challenging us to thinkdifferently about what
hospitality can be.
It is a true pleasure having youon Distinguished, as well as
your multiple visits to ourschool.
We are grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
Delighted to be adopted by you guys.
SPEAKER_01 (47:18):
Thank you.
Whether Bashar's approach provesto be the future or a
philosophical outlier, one thingis clear.
He's forcing us to reckon withwhat hospitality is really
about.
That's the purpose ofDistinguish.
To ask sharp questions, hearbolder ideas, and provoke the
kind of thinking that reshapesour industry.
To our listeners, no matterwhere you are in your journey,
(47:42):
let this be a reminder thathospitality is more than
service.
It's about how you show up,connect, and lead every day.
Join us next time onDistinguished as we continue
learning from leaders who arereshaping hospitality from the
inside out.
If you want to join theconversation and share your
thoughts and suggestions, emailme at shardeen at bu.edu.
(48:05):
That is shadebu.edu.
This episode was produced byMara Littman, marketing by
Rachel Hamlin, technicalassistance provided by Alex
Deanst and production by JasonJose of Cocoon Media.
Special thanks to the entireteam at BU School of
Hospitality.
To keep up with distinguishedpodcasts, be sure to subscribe
(48:27):
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutexperience innovation in our
undergrad and graduate programsby visiting BU.edu slash
hospitality.
I'm Arunupneja, Dean of the BUSchool of Hospitality.
Wishing you a great day.
Most people in hospitality say they want to
transform the industry.
Today's guest walked away from a150 million portfolio to
actually do it.
Bashar Wali didn't just launchanother management firm.
He created a living ecosystem offive companies designed to
eliminate the silos thatfragment our business.
(00:26):
He's betting that the wayforward isn't more automation or
asset light efficiency, butsoul, story, and the longing for
belonging.
Now that's either a visionarymodel for the future or a
romantic ideal in an industryobsessed with margins, not
meaning.
Today we are going to explorehow creating memorable,
(00:49):
meaningful experiences drivesprofitability, not only on the
PL statement, but also inlasting value for guests and
employees alike.
I'm Arun Upneja, Dean of theBoston University School of
Hospitality, and host of theDistinguished Podcast.
Thank you for joining us today,Bashar.
Delighted.
Thanks for having me.
So first let's talk about thefirm that you founded, This
(01:12):
Assembly.
So what is its mission and whatare the services that you
provide?
SPEAKER_00 (01:18):
Everybody tries to be everything to everyone
sometimes and fail miserably.
I sort of tell people I'm just ahotel guy.
And my hope and goal is that ifyou've never done a hotel in
your life and you wake up onemorning and you say, I want to
do a hotel, I want to be one ofyour first calls that you make,
to hopefully talk talk you outof it first, but then hopefully
set you on the right path.
(01:39):
And if you've done it for 20years and you're thinking, I
really need to do somethingdifferent, I also want to be one
of those calls.
So think of all the services youneed from inception to
disposition potentially.
Real estate advisory, realestate syndication, hotel
operations.
I hate the word management, bythe way.
I could go for hours about howpassive that word is and cold
(02:00):
for an industry built on caringfor humans, whether they're
teammates or guests.
You don't manage your kids, youdon't manage your friends.
So I hate that word.
I just want to get that outthere.
I have a hotel, uh, hotel designstudio, I have a food and
beverage concepting andmanagement business, and
hopefully more things under thatumbrella, but I'm never gonna
(02:20):
sell you furniture, I'm nevergonna do any of that.
So think about it in the softskills in hospitality that are
arguably more art than science.
There's a lot of greatscientists out there, that's the
space I want to play in.
And I and it's exclusive to wetalk a lot about what kinds of
hotels and we segment them intoupscale and luxury and upper
(02:40):
upscale and select service.
I say I'm in the memorable hotelbusiness.
If you say to me, I really wantto create a boring commodity
hotel so that if someone needs abed and a shower, I could sell
them a bed and a shower, I'm notyour guy.
There's a lot, plenty morepeople more qualified in that
space with me.
But if you believe that a hotelis more than a bed and a shower,
then I'm your guy.
I want to be able to help youcreate that magic that we talk
(03:03):
about.
That's far more art than it isscience.
So broadly, soft skills in thehospitality industry.
I say that into your earliercomment, the PL is
quintessentially what we're infor.
But there's not just one way toget to a great Ebida.
There's lots of different waysto get there.
And I think we're learning thehard way that what we've done
again and again isn't workinganymore.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Okay, so we're gonna uh come back to that, the PL,
which is obviously veryimportant.
But uh, so you are integratingreal estate design, uh,
management, which you hate, butokay, F and B.
So all of these things under oneumbrella.
Most firms specialize.
You're doing an all-in approach.
(03:45):
Um, that obviously leads toefficiencies, but it also leads
to high fixed costs.
And in this margin-obsessedbusiness, how do you convince
investors that this is worthpaying for?
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
And to be clear, those companies operate
separately.
They may reuse the same backoffice services, the
inconsequential things, but it'sdifferent teams doing them
because I agree with you.
You Jack of all trades, masterof none.
There are specialists in thereal estate side that are
different than the operationside, because those are two
different mindsets.
(04:19):
Food and beverage is a wholeother animal.
I've historically always saidhotel people do only one thing
to food and beverage, and that'sscrew it up.
So having a specialist whounderstands that, I view myself
as the common thread betweenthem.
They're under the same umbrella,but not the same company.
So that's an importantdistinction because I agree with
you.
Then you have all these bodiessitting around waiting for the
(04:39):
work to come, and you either endup losing a lot of money in the
process, or you end up trying tocut cost and then not delivering
the kind of service that youwant.
So it's not an easy task, butbecause I treat them as separate
companies, where again I'm thecommon thread, helps me make it
more efficient and helps me makeit more specialized.
(05:00):
So that's really thedistinction.
It's not just one company, theyare different companies under
that umbrella.
And from the name you couldgather this assembly, it was
about saying, I don't knoweverything.
I want to find the F and Bperson who's gonna complete that
piece that's missing of mypuzzle, or the real estate
person, et cetera.
So it's about assembling a greatcollection of incredibly
talented people and bringingthem together.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Now, would you require companies who want to
avail one services from one sideof your business to either all
in or nothing approach?
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
Absolutely.
You could it's it's a la carte,you pick what you want.
And the design studio that Ihave won't design every hotel I
do either, because I alsobelieve in chemistry.
Some projects need their ownseparate teams.
Just because I happen to be aninvestor in that company or
control that company doesn'tmean it's the best company to do
the work, even for me.
(05:50):
So I really think of them ascompletely separate entities.
But if I come to you or you cometo me, I'm happy to offer you
the services.
You pick what you want.
One doesn't make the othernecessary or mandatory.
You could pick and choose.
SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
Okay.
So you've now trademarked thephrase longing for belonging.
I have.
But your lead company is calledfuture-proof investments.
So how do you bridge the gapbetween that the the thought
behind that phrase versus thiscompany?
How do you pitch sold toinstitutional investors who want
spreadsheets, not sentiments?
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
Uh it is puzzling to me why we keep thinking of those
two things as mutually exclusiveof each other.
But there's this idea also incharity that you can do well by
doing good, right?
And I'm saying just because I amfocused on the soft emotional
part of hospitality doesn't meanI'm not after the same end
(06:46):
result.
It just means I'm taking adifferent path to it.
And my proposition is when yougo to a hotel, even for one
night, my job is to make youfeel like we are your people.
You have arrived, because Ithink that begets loyalty.
And we could talk about pointsand nausea, and my definition of
points being bribery, notloyalty.
I win your loyalty if I make youfeel that even for one night,
(07:10):
you've arrived your home.
We are your people, you belong.
And the only way I can do thatis through the emotion.
And to me, loyalty, now nowlet's flip to the other side of
our brain, the mathematicalcapitalist side.
Loyalty means you're gonna comeback to me and book direct,
you're gonna forego the OTA,you're not gonna shop around for
the cheapest because you feelthat I'm your guy, right?
(07:32):
When when you go home to yourfamilies, you're not looking for
the family who's gonna give youthe most, you're going to your
family only because you're loyalto them.
So I think fundamentally I'mtaking a different path to get
to the same place, and arguablya better place, because I'm
eliminating this need forshopping around, so to speak,
because I truly am focused onloyalty.
(07:53):
Loyalty out of love andbelonging, not out of bribery
and points.
Challenge me.
I want you to challenge me.
I see it in you.
SPEAKER_01 (08:01):
Well, well, you know, the you know, so okay, um,
let me switch back to, and I wasgonna ask you later, but I'm
gonna ask you right now.
Um everyone knows about your uhpassion for hotel industry in
Manhattan.
You go to a different hotel eachnight, um, and you never stay at
the same hotel every night.
So is that how how does, and youknow, let's say that you check
(08:25):
in a hotel at 4 p.m.
and you have a meeting across uhtown at 5 p.m.
So you go dump the stuff in yourin your room and you're out,
come back at 11 p.m.
and you're checking out tomorrowmorning.
How does the hotel have anopportunity to create a
connection with you?
And sometimes I don't want aconnection, I just want a room
to stay because I've beentraveling, you know, 20 hours
(08:48):
and I just don't want anyconnection.
I just want to go sleep and goout my way the next day.
So if that's what I want, thenyou trying to create a
connection, isn't that likecounterintuitive to what the
customer wants?
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
All you need to do is make your hotel memorable
enough, because if you make itmemorable enough for me, I will
go tell the world about it.
I will become your biggestadvocate and your brand
evangelist.
So loyalty to me and belongingto me is about touching me in a
way that enables me to take yourexample and use it elsewhere.
But for guests day in and dayout, your job is to create
(09:24):
long-term loyalty.
And again, people keep confusingthis idea of connection with
time and hugs and spending timetelling you about the spa and
doing it.
It doesn't have to be any ofthat.
I it could be invisible.
Let me give you a real lifeexample.
I like my room, I call it morguetemperature year-round.
I want it 64 degrees.
(09:44):
I don't care if I'm in the NorthPole, I want my room 64 degrees.
I travel obsessively.
You would think once ever, andI'm top status on almost all the
brands.
And with that naming one, I'mvery top status on one of them.
I've probably stayed in 500 oftheir hotels.
They always brag about theirdatabases and they know their
(10:06):
guests and they have all thisinformation on their guests.
You would think once ever in 500plus stays, once ever, one of
those hotels would remotely froma desktop, they don't have to go
to the room, change thetemperature on my room to my
temperature that I like and takecredit for it.
Leave a little note that says,You're crazy, it's winter, but
your temperatures on 64 degreesenjoyed.
(10:29):
If they ever did that once, Iwould literally be standing on
public stations globally talkingabout how incredible they are
and how they are my peoplebecause they cared about me and
they showed that they took thetime and effort to care about
me.
Not once, not once.
Now, it's been done otherplaces, mostly independence, and
I could share some of thosestories, but that's ultimately
what it's about.
And again, people confuse this.
(10:51):
I tell people, back to thelonging for belonging.
I've been happily married for along time.
I go to a hotel sometimes, and Idon't want to hang out in my
room, but I have work to do, Idon't want to go out.
I want to go sit in the lobbynext to you or next to anyone,
because there's warmth in thatsort of human thing.
We're sitting next to eachother.
I may never say a word to you.
(11:11):
But the idea of a connection,that's a connection.
I think of that as a connection.
And I think that's where hotelsfail is we want to automate it
so much, great, because that'swhat you want after a long day
of travel, but I could stillfind a way to touch you
electronically.
By the way, I can do it with abot if I'm smart enough about it
to make you feel that certainthing.
(11:33):
But we fail at it miserablybecause we owe, look, the world
is no longer binary, right?
We used to think everything wasblack and white, wrong and
right, brand versus independent.
It's not like that anymore.
And what is meaningful to you isdifferent than what's meaningful
to me.
So as long as I can push that, Ilove Maslow's hierarchy of need,
as long as I can push thattranscendence or
(11:54):
self-actualization in any way,and I guess give you a simple,
very automated example with thetemperature, that's the kind of
connection I'm talking about.
Because that tells me we seeyou.
You matter, you're somebody.
You're not just anothercheck-in, you are somebody.
And that's a distinction becauseI agree with you.
Some people don't want it.
They want the fully automated,great.
I can't force what I want onyou.
(12:16):
I have to be emotionallyintelligent enough to read my
audience and give them what theywant.
SPEAKER_01 (12:21):
What an indictment of our industry.
All of these big chains, wewon't name any of them, and not
a single one is able to giveBashar his 64 degree.
So next time he's checking intoyour hotel in New York City,
please, please fix histemperature in his room before
he shows up.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, so um so that's that's umI that's I'm kind of uh like I
(12:45):
said, it's it's pretty bad forall of these companies with huge
databases.
Um that actually points toanother um uh sort of complaint
I have, which is even forhighest year guests like you,
who have stayed repeatedly andhave the highest status, they
don't really book the rooms orthey don't really reserve or
(13:06):
hard uh you reserve the roomsbefore you show up.
So when you come in, whateverthe best room available, they'll
give it to you.
That's pretty sad.
SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
That they aren't reserving the rooms.
I mean, look, I'm an I'm anoperator, I get it.
It's not that easy, right?
The the room type isn't ready.
There's lots of excuses as towhy.
And again, I want to besensitive and smart and not
romantic as you suggestedearlier about this whole thing.
There are practicalimplications.
(13:38):
Labor is really hard, we can'tfill the positions, and if we
do, it's a transient audience,they come and go.
You can't really train them theright way.
But in 2025, in the golden ageof technology, we had the
dot-com boom, now we have the AIboom.
You would think these bigcompanies, back to the data for
a minute.
I am shocked the big three, bigfour, big five, don't have
(14:00):
literally five MIT PhDs, datascientists sitting there saying,
okay, let's see everything wecan find out about this guest,
and how can we use thatinformation to his or her
advantage, but then in a waythat benefits us to create
long-term loyalty.
By the way, all these peoplethat are top status on this one,
they're also top status on thatone and that one and that one.
(14:23):
So ultimately, they're notmaking their decision based on
their loyalty, they're making iton convenience.
But if you could find a way tounderstand their behavior and
act upon said behavior, soagain, I'm shocked that they
don't have data scientists indepartments studying how to
dissect the data.
But ultimately, being able tounderstand your guest thoroughly
(14:45):
and figure out how toaccommodate what they want is
what's gonna build that loyalty.
And ultimately, the only way todo that is through really
understanding guest behavior.
It's less about what kind ofmint I want on the pillow and
more about what are the painpoints.
And I was gonna mention when Ilook to hire someone for any
position, literally, I have twoboxes I need to check.
(15:06):
That's it.
No offense to your school or myschool or all the fancy schools.
I have two boxes I want tocheck.
I want you to have common sense,which sadly is exceedingly
uncommon, and I want you to haveemotional intelligence.
And the idea behind emotionalintelligence is when you walk in
the door and I see you, the onlytraining I want to give that
employee is to look at you andjudge what this guest, this
(15:31):
human want.
If I'm showing up holding mycredit card and my license,
dashing to you, don't tell meabout anything.
You should be smart enough toknow this guy wants to be moved
along.
Someone else shows up with theirbag and they're shuffling
through their stuff looking forthe credit card and they're
complaining about their flightand their Uber and all of that,
that person needs empathy.
So if we can find a way toreally hone in on this idea of
(15:53):
emotion, by the way, which isrelevant to every aspect of our
lives.
It's relevant to relationships,it's relevant.
When I walk into a store and I'mtalking to a clerk in a store, I
want to be emotionallyintelligent to him and her like
I would want them to me.
I just think we focus on thewrong things.
We've we've come to the worldwhere we want our people to be
robots, ladies and gentlemenserving ladies and gentlemen,
(16:16):
rather than being humans.
I tell my people, your job is tomake someone feel welcome.
How you say hello?
Who am I to tell you how to sayhello?
Because the ladies and gentlemenserving, ladies and gentlemen,
if I'm all formal and goodafternoon, sir, you may turn me
off versus someone who wants tobe greeted warmly.
And ultimately, again, those arethe moments that I think create
loyalty.
SPEAKER_01 (16:36):
You know, it's very interesting.
Um, this talk about humanconnections and emotional
intelligence.
So you probably believe thatcommon sense and human uh
emotional intelligence cannot betaught.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
Common sense, I believe, cannot be taught.
But you and I need to have awork session to say, can we
create an emotional intelligenceaptitude test?
I don't think it can beimplanted in someone who doesn't
have it, but I think it can berefined.
So I would like you and I wouldlike BU to be the school that
creates the first test foremotional intelligence aptitude.
(17:11):
And when you take that test onthe application, if you fail it
miserably, you're gonna rankvery low in my hiring criteria.
There's another interestingthing I learned recently, and I
forget her name now, thescientist who says, We humans,
you could be a CIA agent for 50years and you still cannot help
yourself.
There are micro expressions wemake in our faces that are just
common to all humans, regardlessof language.
(17:34):
And if you truly understandthose and learn from them, it's
a game changer.
For example, the one I remember,if I'm talking to you and I'm
selling you something, sellingyou anything, by the way,
including myself, even inrelationships, the minute your
pupils dilate, you've alreadybought what I'm selling you.
And if I can look intently inyour eyes and not be distracted
on my phone or thinking aboutthe next sentence, the minute
(17:56):
your eye, your pupils dilate, Ishould stop talking because
you've already bought what I'mselling you.
Our problem is we don't and wekeep talking, and then you gloss
over and I lose you.
And there's a hundred of thosemicro expressions, like
literally how your nose movesand how your lips and eyelids
move.
I would rather spend my timefocusing on that.
Assuming again, technology hasbecome so easy, you don't really
(18:17):
need to.
People are checking inthemselves.
I don't think you can teachcommon sense, and I don't think
you can implant emotionalintelligence if it's not there,
but you can refine it if it'sthere.
All I need is a hint of it, andI'll help refine it.
And the best way to do it is tomodel the behavior.
And I say, if I expect you to bewarm and friendly to everyone
who walks through the door andyou work for me, what message am
(18:39):
I sending to you if I don'ttreat you that way?
And if I'm not paying attentionto your microexpressions and
your emotions.
And I love the simple examplewhere I we tell our employees
that bathroom floor in thelobby, I better be able to eat
off the floor, but your bathroomcan look like a war zone.
Again, what kind of message areyou sending?
So often we preach, but we don'tpractice, and that's lost.
And generationally now, likethis next generation, Z or
(19:02):
Alpha, they're not gonna listento you, right?
Like don't expect them to unlessyou treat them like they want to
be treated.
SPEAKER_01 (19:07):
Right.
Okay, so um I've got to becareful here.
I'm getting so wrapped up inyour answers, I'm um I'm I'm uh
forgetting.
But but so so when this uh Iwant to get back to the human
connection.
And interestingly, with LLMs andAI coming in, I think a robot uh
will you will be able to programa robot to have that common
(19:31):
sense and to and to be able toread those expressions much
better than human beings.
So the micro increase in thepupils, the the small twitching
of the nose or the skin,dilation, whatever, which we
cannot even, I think they'll beable, they'll be more
perceptible to these than anyhuman being can.
SPEAKER_00 (19:50):
My theory on this, and again, I'm an early adopter,
like I talk about tourism by theway, and I say, look, we're
relatively AI immune for thetime being, for the time being,
not not never, for the timebeing, you can't feel the sand
between your toes or ha feel theocean water spray on your face
unless you go there, standthere, and experience it
(20:11):
yourself.
Someday we will lie in bed, puta VR set on our head, and we
will get that feeling.
Someday, not today.
I, for the time being, saysomewhat disagree with you.
Yes, you can have a camera thatcan read that expression and
tell you pupils dilated, alarm,alarm, stop talking.
I get it.
I think for the time being,emotional intelligence, not
(20:31):
common sense.
Common sense is easy becausecommon sense is fact patterns.
If one plus one equals two, thendo this, right?
That's fact to me, is how Ithink of common sense.
Emotional intelligence, in myopinion, for the time being, is
exclusive to mammals.
I don't think we'll ever get thekind of warm and fuzzy I get for
mammals, a dog that I would getfrom a robot dog, from a human
(20:54):
that I would get from a robothuman, even in human skin,
dolphin for that matter, right?
So it's really exclusive tomammals.
I'm not saying never, but Ithink it's gonna take a long
time before robots, and ifrobots now have emotional
intelligence, we don't needhumans anymore.
Right?
I mean, ultimately that's abigger conversation.
But I will say for the next 10,15, 25 years, until the
(21:18):
technology becomes so advanced,we can use AI to help us
mitigate the need for humans topay that much attention because
we have a transient population.
And maybe there's cameras as youwalk in the door that
immediately give me a warningthat says this guest coming in
is not happy, right?
I treat them accordingly.
But I think emotionalintelligence, for the time
(21:39):
being, is exclusive to mammals.
I hope.
SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
So I hope we can probably use technology.
In the old days, I used to saywhen a guest is approaching you,
let's say you are in arestaurant in a hotel, and they
have the key in their pocket.
And so on your host stand, it'lldisplay what room this guest is
in.
SPEAKER_00 (22:00):
Better yeah on that subject, if I may.
Um, I have friends at Getty'sdesign group working on uh a
project called the Hotel ofTomorrow.
This can happen today if wedecided to make it happen.
My phone is in my pocket.
Literally, when I'm pick adistance, half a mile away from
your hotel, you should know I'mcoming.
There is a system that will tellyou I'm coming.
Retail, by the way, I no longerlook at hotels for inspiration
(22:23):
for what's next.
I look at retail.
Because retail was at the vergeof dying and they had to
reinvent themselves.
And back to what I was sayingearlier, necessity is the mother
of all of all inventions, isthey really had to survive and
created all these things.
You think about Instagram, wejokingly talk about it.
I think about skis, I get skisin my feed, I press a button,
I've bought skis.
Brilliant what they've done.
(22:44):
So this hotel of tomorrow, theidea behind it is my phone is in
my pocket.
You know I'm approaching.
When I walk into the lobby, youknow who I am, a photo of me
pops up.
You shouldn't tell me anything.
You should say, keys on yourphone, done, keep walking.
When I walk down the hallway, Ilike the smell of gardenia.
Gardenia will spray in the air.
The art on the wall will changeto my liking.
(23:06):
The lighting will change to myliking.
When I walk in the room, thetemperature will go down
automatically.
The TV will come on on BBC,which is what I like, and it'll
be on.
That technology exists today.
As you know, as an industry,we're generally late adopters.
I think all these things arecoming and it's going to make
the experience better andbetter.
The fundamental problem with allof this, however, in my opinion,
(23:27):
kind of like cool design.
So I was early in the indiehotels, and all we had to do is
serve you local coffee in thelobby, and your mind was blown
because no one else was doingit.
While now the Hampton Inn hasrotating art galleries.
Captioned by Hyatt has a tattooartist in the lobby.
Cool has been has becomeubiquitous.
The playing field has beenleveled.
(23:49):
All these simple little thingsthat we used to do to make us
different are no longerrelevant.
They're expected now.
Like back in the day, farm totable was a thing.
Now imagine a restaurant thathas a big sign on the front that
says, we get all our frozenstuff from Cisco, come eat here.
No one would even walk in thedoor.
So what was once special hasbecome a table stake.
So the only way, in my opinion,that we can differentiate is
(24:11):
that the one thing that wecontrol the most, and that's the
emotion.
And making some hospitalityisn't what you do or what you
deliver.
That's service.
It's how you make people feel.
SPEAKER_01 (24:22):
I I know that you've said at one point that we are in
retail business.
Now that's a provocativestatement for someone who
champions vulnerability andhuman connection.
So is that your candid truth?
Or is that somehow you're tryingto future proof hotels?
How do you reconcile those?
SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
I love these tough questions.
Well done.
Uh, we are absolutely in theretail business.
We erroneously keep saying we'rein the guest service business.
Guest service is what we do toaccomplish the goal of selling
my perishable inventory.
I have a room for sale tonight.
If I don't do not sell thatroom, it is gone forever.
It's not like a t-shirt that ifI don't sell today, I could
always sell tomorrow or the nextday.
(25:00):
That room on this date is goneforever.
Now, in order to be a successfulretailer, you need an angle
because everybody's sellingt-shirts.
How is your t-shirt different?
And the only way you can makeyour t-shirt different without
losing your behind on the bottomline by keep by throwing more
marketing dollars and morequality and more and more.
And you're seeing this in someof the brands, by the way, now.
(25:22):
Like some of the brands thatwere solid three and a half
star, they're not happy withthree and a half star, and they
keep wanting to upgrade andupgrade and upgrade, and it all
gets diluted at the top andeverything becomes the same.
So if you want to sell at-shirt, well, I use I'll use
this example from retail.
And please, ladies, don't hateon me for this.
And if the boyfriend's husband'sspouse's partners are hating,
(25:44):
don't blame me for it.
What is the difference between aBirkin bag and a coach bag?
It's a vessel that holds yourthings made out of leather.
One is$30,000, one is$300.
But when you hold that Birkin,it makes you feel a certain way.
What's the difference between aBMW and a Toyota?
It's the same thing.
It provides the same function.
It takes you from point A topoint B, but one makes you feel
(26:06):
a certain way when you're in it.
So we've managed to sell theemotion of the thing more
importantly than the thing.
And I think similarly, a hotelbecomes more valuable if it made
you feel a certain way.
Not just on the quality scale,but even broadly.
When you have two hotels side byside, equally qualified, equally
designed, equally, equally,equally, the one you're going to
(26:26):
go to is the one that resonateswith you more.
When you make friends, you cantake two, you can take twins who
are identical in every way,including education, and they're
going to be differentpersonalities.
So the way you sell more of yourt-shirt is the personality and
the feeling that t-shirt givessomeone when they wear it.
That's how I think about how youdifferentiate yourselves.
Because otherwise, we're havingthis race to the Ibida bottom to
(26:50):
zero, because the only way weknow how to compete with the
next person is to throw morethings, which is unsustainable
ultimately.
Yet the one thing that reallydoesn't cost us anything, we
continue to ignore, which isagain focusing on our teammates.
Marriott's quote, by the way,has never been more true than
today.
Take care of your people whowill take care of your customers
who will take care of you.
We've forgotten the take care ofyour people part.
(27:12):
We're only focused on takingcare of your customers, but
everybody's doing the samething.
So how do you win?
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Okay, so um, so I'm assuming just a quick follow-up
on this.
So when you say longing forbelonging, you're obviously also
including employees.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
100%.
More importantly, than guests.
And forgive the French.
I'm working on this.
I love quote, I love coiningterms.
Give us shit ability.
You and I have two hotels sideby side, equal in every way.
In every way.
What you pay and the benefitspackage and all that stuff is
market driven.
You can't pay less than market.
You kind of have to float withmarket.
(27:47):
And if you do more than market,you're resetting the market and
driving yourself and yourcompetitors down to zero.
So I say, similar to the idea ofhow do you make a guest feel
when they come in, why should Ipick you over his hotel?
Your values need to align withmine.
I need to know that you standfor something more.
(28:08):
I love Simon Sinek and the ideaof don't tell me what you do,
don't tell me how you do it,don't tell me where you do it,
don't tell me any of that stuff.
Tell me why do you do what youdo?
And if you don't give employeesa reason to care, you're just a
commodity.
You're, I need a job, he has ajob, and he has a job.
Or I'll just pick the one that Ifeel.
But if you resonate with methrough your actions, not your
(28:28):
words, this is not a marketingcampaign.
And you can't please everyone,obviously, but you have to stand
for something and believe in it.
People use the word authentictoo often.
I hate that word, it meansnothing anymore.
Authenticity to me is anunapologetic point of view.
If you're gonna care about theenvironment, do it.
Don't talk about it, do it.
If you're gonna care about yourlocal community, do it.
(28:48):
If you're gonna care about youremployees and read their micro
expressions and read theiremotions, do it.
Because that that becomes so itcreates inertia and it becomes
reputationally the place to goto.
So ultimately, everything we'retalking about, I don't
distinguish between a guest andan employee.
They're the same.
I'd argue the employee is farmore important because without
them, the guest doesn't getanything.
(29:08):
So yeah, all that applies to theemployees absolutely.
And it's a value system.
But you just have to have a setof value that you practice, not
you preach only.
You have to practice that peoplewere will connect to and not
everyone, but at least now youstand for something.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
Okay.
Uh let's move on to um you'vebuilt your brand on being a
rebel, but rebels stare downfrom the outside, whereas you
are now building from the insidewith capital partners, staff.
And so are you still disruptingor are you laying a new
foundation for how we need to doour business?
SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
I hate the word disruption.
We use it too loosely, and whatdoes it really mean at the end
of the day?
What we do is not rocketscience, right?
I mean, really think about whatwe do.
It is definitely not rocketscience.
So I do not think of myself as adisruptor.
I'm just a loud mouth who saysthings that others are afraid to
say.
When I call, again, the demiseof big brands and the ubiquity
(30:03):
of everything we do and thissort of copy-paste mentality
that everyone does.
I think being more open-mindedabout doing things differently
and not doing the same thingwe've done for the last hundred
years and accepting expectingdifferent results, the traveler
profile is changing.
Like for I'll give you anotherexample.
Young families are affluent.
They want to travel with theirkids, and they're now relegated
(30:24):
to either amenity less Airbnbbecause it's more conducive to
their travel, or so lessextended stay.
Yet they have lots of money anddiscretionary might to spend.
Why aren't we focusing on it?
Well, because we've never donekids before.
We're a business hotel.
Well, what does that mean?
Why aren't we focusing on thatgroup?
Why aren't we focusing on womentravelers?
Why aren't we?
(30:45):
Why aren't we?
Why aren't we?
So we use the word disruptor.
This is very elemental.
There's nothing disruptive aboutit.
The only times our industry hasbeen disrupted thus far, in my
opinion, since the beginning oftime.
Airbnb, which taught us how tobe more on our feet.
And I think AI will, in duecourse, is the next sort of
(31:05):
internet.
It will disrupt what we do.
But ultimately, nothing we'vedone because the business at its
very base, it's simple.
We have someone who needsshelter.
We provide shelter, but shelteris a commodity.
We've learned that we can't bein the commodity business
because we'll lose.
So we've become experiential.
And that's what we're after now.
So I don't think I'm adisruptor.
(31:27):
And I think I'm just sort ofsaying I'm on the inside.
I didn't study this academicallyonly.
I went to hotel school, butthat's not where I'm on the
ground watching what'shappening, and I'm a keen
observer of human behavior.
I hate trends.
Trends by definition have ashelf life.
I'm just watching howgenerationally people are
interacting with this hotelexperience now and what they're
(31:48):
looking for.
And I have my eye on what theywant.
SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
I want to go back to AI, and you said that that'll be
the third disruptor in thefuture.
Um so over time, AI is replacinghuman labor.
Um even at this point, uh, ahuge percentage, 60-70% of
hospitality tasks can be done byAI.
Uh so but but but you are sayingthat tech should serve humans
(32:15):
and not replace them.
But my question is, at whatpoint does that become
unsustainable, where humanbeings are just so expensive in
terms of you know labor that youknow you have AI doing better
jobs.
So at what point do you thinkthat'll happen?
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
I've often said and continue to, technology should
remove friction.
If I today need three people atthe front desk, I know I won't
need all three soon enoughbecause technology is AI is as
you know, AI has been around,machine learning, et cetera.
We're just using that termbroadly.
(32:53):
Robotics, by the way, are real.
I was talking to someone earlierabout how this company is
finally figured out the issuewith dexterity with robotics,
because they can't carry a lift,they're using octopuses,
example, and doing this sort oftentacle kind of thing that
folds around, that can pick upan egg and move it around.
There will be a robot who willmake the bed one day and clean
the bathroom.
Like they're already there, butit's gonna get further and
(33:14):
further refined.
But the idea eventually is if Iliterally can walk into a hotel
that has zero people in it, andI think ultimately removing the
humans completely will eliminatethe idea of feeling and emotion
and Maslow's transcendence.
So I think technology willsubstantially reduce the number
of people you want, but I hopethat then it allows me to what
(33:36):
few people are left to hirehighly emotionally intelligent
people, highly engaged people,so that for those who want it,
and to your earlier comment, andI don't disagree with you, this
is not one size fits all.
To those who want it, they canhave it and engage with it.
I mean, listen, you can go to abar today and have a robotic
bartender.
Is that a bar you want to godrink at?
Part of the magic of going to abar is chatting with the
(33:57):
bartender.
Do I go to Starbucks or mycoffee shop and spend$8 on a
latte that I can press a buttonat home and get because I need
caffeine, my drug?
No, I do it for the experienceof going to the coffee shop.
Sean McPherson, one of my hotelheroes, uh, he's responsible for
our great hotels in New York,said, Look, we go to these
places, restaurant, coffee shop,hotel, because we need a respite
(34:19):
in our day.
And a respite in our day that iscompletely humanless, it's not a
respite anymore.
It's a commodity.
That coffee that I'm gonna go tothe coffee shop and press a
button to get, I'll do it athome, press a button and get it.
So, what's interesting about AIfor me, removing the friction,
the most interesting thing I'mspending time on right now in AI
(34:39):
is true dynamic pricing.
Let's use this example.
I want a latte at 10 a.m.
It's eight dollars.
You want a latte, but you can'tafford to pay$8.
That latte should not be$8 at 2o'clock in the afternoon.
You should be able to buy it forhalf price.
And if we deploy dynamic pricingthe right way, I'm happy because
(35:00):
I got it when I want it, becauseI'm willing to pay for it.
You're happy because you got it,you got it when you can afford
it, and the establishment ishappy they're selling more
lattes.
Uh, you want to sit by thewindow at 7 p.m.
on Saturday with your wife fordinner, your price that you pay
should be different than theprice my wife and I pay sitting
by the bathroom at 5 o'clock onMonday.
That's the exciting part aboutAI for me.
(35:22):
Removing the friction, truedynamic pricing to the benefit
of all, those who have it, thosewho don't, and the
establishment.
But this idea of becoming fullyautomated, you're like a hotel
is like a vending machine.
I need a bedroom, I go get abedroom.
If that's what you want, andsome people will want that, that
option should be available.
But when we talk aboutexperiential, to me,
(35:44):
experiential is human.
Think about this.
You could right now, I was at abaseball game on Saturday,
Yankees socks, and this girlsitting in front of me, who saw
me looking at her eventually,was literally talking to an AI
bot, lovey dovey.
Is that the future you want tolive in?
And I am not being romanticabout my Gen X or anything like
(36:04):
that.
I get it.
Technology is great.
But if that's the word we'regetting to, then it's the end of
the human race because we don'tneed ourselves, we don't need
humans anymore.
And that's the romantic partthat I hang on to is this idea
that there's warmth inhuman-to-human that a robot for
the foreseeable future, notnever, will not replace.
SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
I was right.
You have a romantic streak inyou.
Um okay, so do you have a redline, at least for now, that in
the foreseeable future you willnot replace that one particular
job profile with an AI or arobot?
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
I think the we'll call them, I hate all this
terminology, but sort of thereception, the welcome staff,
the bartender, the waiter if youwant an experience or waitress,
if you don't want to just pressa button and get some and have a
robot deliver it to you.
I think again, those the placeswhere I want to interact with
(36:58):
someone because I want to talkto them about their opinions.
I want to, I want to ask themabout their hopes, dreams, and
aspirations, because that's partof this magic of human
connection.
I think those front-touchperson, but you know, do we need
five people in accountinganymore?
Do we need seven people inrevenue management anymore?
Do we need five people in SEOand PPC anymore?
(37:18):
Probably not.
But I am a believer also thatour business is far more art
than it is science, right?
So I think there's always thishuman touch that has to come
into play.
We used to talk about it all thetime in revenue management.
I don't care what the um RMStells me, there's an art to it
sometimes.
You know, you make adjustmentsaccordingly.
(37:39):
But I think a lot of the sort ofrepetitive accounting, data
entry, all that will go away.
And part of the magic, again, ifI need five people to help me
understand who's walking throughthe door, I don't anymore.
I need one person to act on whatthe system gives them and
verifies it.
So for those who believe a hotelis a commodity, and there are
those who believe that, they canhave it.
(38:01):
But anyone else who wants morethan just a commodity, I think
you still need that.
Knock, knock, who's there, givethem a big hug and welcome them
in, and then let them do theirthing.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
So at the end of the day, um what I hear from you is
that uh if it becomes acommodity business, then it's
just going to be okay, what isthe cost?
What is the return on capitalyou want, and that's the price.
But you think that with thishuman connection, you can drive
better returns?
SPEAKER_00 (38:27):
100% because the value proposition increases and
you're willing to pay more forsomething that makes you feel a
certain way than just again,back to the fashion example and
the car example.
If if you think of, and somepeople do, and again, there's no
no binary here.
Some people say a car is avessel that takes me from point
A to point B.
(38:47):
I don't care what it is, whatyear, what color, what brand,
what make.
I just want it to be realreliable, and I want to
understand my cost of ownership.
If that's what you want in ahotel, price and location, how
about it?
That's okay.
Anyone else who wants more isgonna look for that.
Because what else, remember,when you're buying a hotel,$100
(39:07):
or$1,000, you're taking nothinghome with you.
Maybe you steal some towels, butyou're taking nothing else home
with you.
And if I don't leave you with amemory, what's the value?
Like a car you buy, you havesomething, you buy a watch, you
have something tangible that youkeep with you.
But going to the theater, reallythat is the example, right?
I think of hotels as theater.
(39:28):
You're going to the theater forthe experience.
You're not taking anything homewith you, not one thing but that
memory and the experience.
And a theater without actors,why are you going there?
Right?
I mean, that that's sort of howI think of it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
So I wanted to turn back to um when I asked you the
question about uh longing forbelonging for employees, and you
gave this uh passionateresponse, but why you so
strongly believe that applies toemployees as well.
But then you also highlightedthat uh the the wages that are
being paid to employees are kindof sort of determined by market.
(40:02):
So you can go to above, too muchabove, too much below.
Uh, with the demographicchallenge facing our country,
um, you know, we uh the wages weprovide are pretty much on the
lower side of what you can getin many other industries where
you are able to leverage um yourlabor into much higher return.
(40:24):
So, you know, simple example isyou take um Google's revenue and
divide it by the number ofemployees, you get the revenue
per employee, it's gonna be manyorders of magnitude higher than
uh the average revenue per hotelemployee that you can get.
So how do we then in thisdemographic marketplace attract
(40:45):
and retain high-qualityemployees, those with common
sense and those with uhemotional intelligence?
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
This is a very big question, as you know, that
inevitably is gonna gopolitical.
We've in the United States ofAmerica, we've created this
culture that everyone insiststheir children go to school,
college, and they in and nowwhen they go to college, they
all want to be investmentbankers and lawyers.
Nobody, nobody, I've never met aperson who said, Oh, I really
(41:12):
want my kid to graduate and goclean hotel rooms.
So the answer to our labor woestoday, unfortunately, the only
answer is immigration.
We are desperate for them, wewant them.
No one in our country wants todo it.
We're not having enough kids inthis country anymore, so the
labor pool here is shrinking.
So until we fix immigrationthoughtfully and methodically,
(41:33):
and I'm an immigrant, I came tothis country legally.
I think legal and thoughtfulimmigration is the way.
I do not want wide open borders,come one, come all.
We need immigrants in thiscountry to do these jobs because
we're not doing them.
We don't want to do them, ourchildren don't want to do them.
So that's on sort of the lowerend of the market scale, and it
is a market wage, and it is avery complicated question
(41:54):
because in a lot of thesecities, even at the living wage
that we pay, I, you know, I'm onthe West Coast, we pay very
healthy living wages, forget theminimum wage, it's not even a
conversation anymore.
It's not enough.
And this goes now to the demiseof the middle class and the cost
of housing and all these issuesthat I'm not even remotely smart
enough to address.
But again, back to my example ofyou and I have two hotels side
(42:17):
by side, we pay the same, wegive the same benefits, we do,
we do, we do, we do, do.
The only thing I can dodifferent than you that doesn't
cost me any more money is toactually care for my employees,
treat them with respect, ensurethat their needs are attended
to.
So we're starting to think aboutit in different buckets.
And we say there's generallythree buckets.
There is the person who wantsgrowth and career and loves this
(42:39):
industry.
There's the person who wants astable job.
They want to know thereliability of the schedule, the
reliability of the work, thereliability of the pay.
That's all they want.
On demand, go to work when youwant, stop working when you
want, go back when you want.
That's what they're getting usedto and what they're seeing out
there.
And back to AI and technologyand disruption, we keep using
technology, always thinkingguests facing, but we ignore the
(43:01):
teammates facing.
So I believe, and again, by theway, I want to be clear, what I
preach isn't what you find ateveryone in my hotel.
This is all aspirational for allof us, me included.
These are complicated issues.
But I really think we need tofigure out how to use technology
to attend to our different, youcan't make everyone happy, but I
sort of, in my opinion, brokethose buckets for you, how I see
them.
And now let's say, okay, how dowe deal with each one of those
(43:24):
buckets?
And how do we create care forthose who now, the aspiring
model who says, I love this job,they let me go when I want to.
If I have a last-minuteaudition, they let me, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
She's gonna stay loyal to you.
You can't pay less, right?
You can always pay more andreset the market.
But I think it's the soft skillsback to hotels and commodities.
(43:44):
If I make you feel like youbelong here, you've arrived,
this is your family, you'regonna be loyal because it's the
same room here or here, it's thesame job here or here.
So I think it's all about thisidea of feeling cared for.
I can't say this enough.
This is about selfactualization.
And transcend us, and thatcomes, in my opinion, from being
seen.
We don't see people anymore.
(44:05):
You're an employee or astatistic.
You're a guest, you're a VIP.
A VIP is a statistic, that's nota person.
I want to know that personindividually, not just that
they're employee number 702 orguest VIP number seven.
SPEAKER_01 (44:18):
Aspirational goals for all of us.
Very laudable.
But let me also say, I'm also animmigrant.
I came to this country.
I think the point you made aboutthe demographics, if you look at
the replacement, you know, thenumber of babies born per um, we
are below replacement.
And we just have to look atother countries that are way
(44:41):
below us to see what's happeningin those countries.
Japan, South Korea, and prettymuch all of Western Europe.
SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
So And again, immigration is we're not gonna
go make people all of a suddenhave seven kids.
That's not gonna happen.
Legal, thoughtful immigration.
This country is built byimmigrants from its very
inception, and we need them tocontinue to grow and continue to
be the great power that we areand the great bastion of hope
(45:08):
for the world that we are.
We we should be all honored andlucky that so many people are
knocking on our doors and wantto walk in.
We want them, we need them.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (45:17):
Okay, so after this heavy discussion, let's loosen
things up with a quickfireround.
Um, first thing that comes toyour mind, a word or a phrase,
doesn't have to be a longanswer.
In fact, it shouldn't be long.
What's the strangest hotelamenity you've ever seen that
has actually worked?
SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
Walk of shame kit at the Roosevelt Hotel in
Hollywood.
Don't bring your kids there.
I think it's a brilliant idea.
Well done, except when you bringyour eight-year-old daughter and
she asks you what a walk ofshame is.
It has a t-shirt, a toothbrush,flip-flops.
I thought it was brilliant.
SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
If you were a hotel role, GM, bellhop, concierge,
housekeeper, who would you beand why?
SPEAKER_00 (45:57):
I loved being a front office manager because it
was the most guest-facing,guest-engaging.
It was never a dull moment.
I got yelled at a lot.
I got things thrown at me a lot,but it was such an incredible
experience.
And I had a rule with valetsthat if there are 10 kinds of
cars that showed up, I'm the onewho procs them.
That was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (46:18):
One thing almost every hotel gets wrong, other
than not getting the 64 degrees.
SPEAKER_00 (46:24):
Overthinking what we want when what we guests want is
really, really simple.
We just want empathy.
When I show up off of a red eyeand you tell me, check in is at
three.
I just want you to care that I'mexhausted and I've been on a red
eye.
You don't have to do all youhave to do is convince me enough
that you care.
You don't actually have to doanything about it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:43):
Yeah, you're being very polite.
Um my reaction would have been alittle bit more extreme.
Um okay.
The last question hospitalitybuzzword or phrase you would ban
forever, and what would youreplace it with?
SPEAKER_00 (46:54):
Disruption.
And I would replace it withcritical thinking and
innovation.
SPEAKER_01 (47:00):
Fantastic.
Bashar, thank you so much forsharing your vision and
challenging us to thinkdifferently about what
hospitality can be.
It is a true pleasure having youon Distinguished, as well as
your multiple visits to ourschool.
We are grateful.
SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
Delighted to be adopted by you guys.
SPEAKER_01 (47:18):
Thank you.
Whether Bashar's approach provesto be the future or a
philosophical outlier, one thingis clear.
He's forcing us to reckon withwhat hospitality is really
about.
That's the purpose ofDistinguish.
To ask sharp questions, hearbolder ideas, and provoke the
kind of thinking that reshapesour industry.
To our listeners, no matterwhere you are in your journey,
(47:42):
let this be a reminder thathospitality is more than
service.
It's about how you show up,connect, and lead every day.
Join us next time onDistinguished as we continue
learning from leaders who arereshaping hospitality from the
inside out.
If you want to join theconversation and share your
thoughts and suggestions, emailme at shardeen at bu.edu.
(48:05):
That is shadebu.edu.
This episode was produced byMara Littman, marketing by
Rachel Hamlin, technicalassistance provided by Alex
Deanst and production by JasonJose of Cocoon Media.
Special thanks to the entireteam at BU School of
Hospitality.
To keep up with distinguishedpodcasts, be sure to subscribe
(48:27):
wherever you listen to yourfavorite podcast.
You can also learn more aboutexperience innovation in our
undergrad and graduate programsby visiting BU.edu slash
hospitality.
I'm Arunupneja, Dean of the BUSchool of Hospitality.
Wishing you a great day.
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