March 11, 2025 • 42 mins
Today, we're diving headfirst into the nitty-gritty of estate planning with our special guest, Kristen Luce, Partner at Coughlin and Gerhart, LLP, who knows this stuff like the back of her hand.
Our episode kicks off with a casual banter that sets the tone for a relaxed yet informative discussion. Kristen shares her journey and passion for helping clients navigate the often murky waters of estate planning. Together we discuss how many people feel overwhelmed and hesitant to start their estate planning because, let’s face it, nobody wants to think about their mortality. But Kristen reassures us that it’s all about getting organized and taking proactive steps. We touch on the importance of having a good team in your corner—fee-only financial planners and attorneys who actually communicate and work together.
Together, we unravel the mystery of why having a solid estate plan is essential, especially when life throws curveballs your way. We tackle the common misconceptions that make people hesitant to seek professional help and why you should throw your trust into the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing (spoiler alert: it’s not always the first Google result).
Kristen explains how you should navigate the legal labyrinth of financial planning, ensuring you don’t end up in a pickle when it counts the most.
Takeaways:
- Ditch the Suits podcast is all about sharing financial insights that the industry prefers to keep hush-hush, helping listeners navigate their money matters like seasoned pros.
- The transition to Patreon is a game-changer, making past episodes accessible and ensuring you never miss out on new content, so hop on board!
- Estate planning isn’t a one-size-fits-all process; it’s crucial to work with an attorney who gets your unique situation and crafts a plan that truly reflects your wishes.
- Clients often struggle to get organized for estate planning, but with a solid questionnaire and guidance, the process can be smoother and less daunting than you think!
- Understanding the legal side of financial planning is essential, especially during tough times, as it helps to ensure your family’s stability and peace of mind in the future.
- Communication is key in estate planning; a good attorney listens to what’s important to you and explains things in plain English, avoiding the dreaded legalese.
________________________________________
Ms. Luce joined Coughlin & Gerhart, LLP in 2007 and is a partner with the firm. She is chair of the firm’s Trusts & Estates Practice Group. Ms. Luce’s practice is concentrated in the areas of Estate Planning, Trust & Estate Administration, Guardianships, Adoptions, Litigated Estate Matters, and Real Estate. She practices in the firm’s main office, as well as the Owego branch office. She has been selected as a Rising Star among New York lawyers for Estate Planning from 2013 – 2018 by Upstate New York Super Lawyers magazine. In 2017 Ms. Luce was named in the 24th Edition of the Best Lawyers in America® in the practice area of Trust & Estates. Ms. Luce has been given this award every year since 2017 (for the Best Lawyers in America© for Trust & Estates).
Ms. Luce is a current member of the Broome County and New York State Bar Associations. She is a member of the New York Bar Association’s Elder Law and Special Needs Section. Ms. Luce previously served on the Board of Directors to the local American Automobile Association (AAA) Club. She is a past Co-Chair of the Broome County Bar Association’s Young Lawyers Committee. She served on the Board
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to Ditch the Suitspodcast, where we share insights
nobody in the financialservices industry wants you to know
about.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
So buckle up and welcome toDitch the Suits.
(00:21):
Hey, guys.
Steve Campbell from Ditch theSuits with a special announcement.
We've recently transitionedall of our episodes to Patreon.
We would encourage you tovisit patreon.com you can search
Ditch the Suits and subscribeto our channel.
If you are interested in anyof our previous episode or seasons,
they're now available on Patreon.
Get notifications for newepisodes right in your inbox and
(00:42):
never miss an episode.
Head to patreon.com and joinour Ditch to Suits channel.
And the link is in the show notes.
On this podcast, we regularlyare talking about vetting professionals
and how to know if you have acompetent advisor or advisors on,
you know, a broader team.
Your cpa, your account or yourattorney, your financial advisors,
(01:03):
your investment people, yourinsurance people.
And a lot of people aren'treally interested in financial advisors.
They're thinking, I should dothis myself for a lot of reasons.
Sometimes it's because theyjust don't like having to take advice
from people or they don't wantto pay people.
(01:24):
I think that's a lot of timeswhat it is.
Or they don't think they needthem because, you know, I can Google,
kind of like WebMD.
Yeah.
And Google never leads anybody astray.
There's no way you could findbad information on Google, as we've
talked about before inprevious episodes.
But I.
We want to take thisconversation today and talk about
the legal side of financial planning.
(01:46):
And we did a series a coupleof episodes ago where we were talking
to Jessica Blake, one of ourwealth managers.
She talked a lot about estate planning.
And it was awesome.
And leading up to estateplanning and into estate planning
is a place where normally yourattorney's gonna be involved to a
pretty good degree.
And a lot of times people arekind of skipping that part.
(02:07):
We're maybe getting it wrong.
So the next couple ofepisodes, we're gonna focus on actually
that piece.
Um, I think that that whenyou're thinking about stability with
your family, that's one of the.
You don't really realize itall the time because normally you're
dealing with attorneys whensomething really horrible has happened.
(02:28):
Right.
Whether you're being sued orsuing somebody or somebody's passed
away.
And.
And you can't get at somethingthat you need to get at or something
like that.
And then all Of a suddenyou're like, okay, now who do I get
to help me?
And a lot of times it's goingto be the attorney at that point.
But there's a lot that we cando to make that easier or possibly
not even needed.
And that's what we're going togo over today.
(02:49):
And so we've got our.
Our guest with us today isKristen Luce, who is an attorney,
a partner, and a chair of herfirm's trust and estates practice
group.
And her practice focuses onestate planning, trust and estate
administration, guardianship,adoptions, litigated estate matters,
and real estate.
That's pretty good.
(03:10):
I'm trying, I'm reading fromthe script today.
I didn't want to get any ofthat intro.
This is, this is a big day.
We talked about it rightbefore we came on, but Kristen is
actually our first externalguest in our four years of Ditch
the Suits.
We had just Blake on, but sheworks with us every single day and
she rocked it.
So if you want moreinformation, go listen to those four
episodes.
But Kristen Luce we've knownfor years in the community together
(03:31):
and as we said in 2025, one ofour goals was to bring some outside
voices to have conversationsbecause this is Ditch the Suits podcast
and if you're here as a friendor you know, Kristen, welcome.
I'm Steve Campbell.
I serve as our seniormarketing director at Seed Planning
Group.
Travis, a co host, is our CEO.
Seed is a fee only financialplanning firm and this show is all
(03:52):
about us bringing ourcollective consciousness, working
with people every day to helpyou get the most from your money
in life.
And so this episode, these fewepisodes we're going to do with Kristen,
I think is going to be a lotof fun because Jess did a great job
from a planner's perspectivetalking about the coordination that
has to go into it.
And one of the things thatcame out of that conversation with
Jess I thought was great isestate planning is challenging because
(04:13):
it's like the one thing thathappens when you're no longer here.
And so we had talked about inthat series, like if you make a mistake
with an investment or youclaim something the wrong way, you
might have time to fix it.
But estate planning is reallyhard for people to grasp the severity
of doing it and doing it wellbecause it most likely kicks in for
the most part when you're nolonger here.
(04:33):
And so I think this is goingto be a great conversation we had
just talking about fromplanners perspective by having Kristen,
who's actually in estateplanning and works with A firm and
other attorneys from herperspective as a professional.
So, really excited about thesefew episodes we're going to get into.
Let's take a break to hear aword from our sponsor.
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(04:53):
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Yeah, so we're going to diveright into introducing Kristen.
(05:35):
And before we do, you know, wetalk about having qualified people
and we talk a lot of timeswith our firm when we talk about
estate planning.
I think Jess talked about itin one of the episodes that we did
with her about.
We have a list at the firm ofattorneys that we've worked with
that check the boxes.
As far as we're concerned,Kristen is one of those and she's
(05:55):
been on it for a very long time.
So we're really excited tobring somebody that we've actually
done a lot of work with, notjust, I mean, we get requests all
the time for people who wantto be on the podcast.
And we're like, we don't havea clue who these people are and what,
you know, do they do, whatthey actually say.
But with Kristin, we actuallyknow her work and her firm pretty
well and so we're reallyexcited to have them.
(06:16):
So, Kristen, welcome.
I am so excited to be here today.
And quite honestly, estateplanning is one of my favorite topics
to talk about from a legal perspective.
So this is exciting.
Well, we're going to have alittle bit of fun then.
So talk to us a little bitabout you, though.
Your background, where you'reat right now and, you know, so people
(06:38):
don't have to take my word for it.
Your area of focus.
Yeah, so.
So at the firm here, I do alot of trust in estate work and that
includes like, estate planning.
And I'm sure we're going totalk about all the different aspects
of, you know, what's includedin that.
I also do estate administration.
(06:59):
So after people have passedaway, whether it's winding up their
trust or having to probate anestate, there's just different aspects
of what happens when peoplepass away.
I'm very involved in that.
I also do some guardianship work.
So if we've got a situationwhere we've had an adult who was
competent their life and allof a sudden lose competency for some
(07:25):
reason, there's a whole courtprocess that we have to go through
to get a guardianship in place.
So I do some of that work.
I also have done adoptionsover the years.
That's a really good day incourt when you finalize those.
Those are a lot of fun.
And then I do real estate.
(07:45):
You know, often when you'redealing with an estate or after someone's
passed away, you've got tosell the house.
And so I definitely have awhole real estate component to.
To what I do.
And you have a.
You have another little tinywrinkle to your background, too.
Weren't you a judge for a while?
(08:05):
Yeah, I.
I was appointed and thenelected for a period of time to the
town of Binghamton.
I was the judge out there, so.
Okay, that was really interesting.
Yeah.
But I'm no longer a judge, you know.
Yeah.
So we don't have to call you,your honor.
(08:26):
We can just.
No, you do not.
No, no.
Kristen works.
Yeah.
Currently you're at Coughlinand Geart, which is a, A, A, A law
firm that's based in Binghamton.
Right.
I think is the mail.
We, we.
We would call where you are.
Binghamton.
Right.
New York.
Okay.
Just so everybody knows, wehave listeners from all over the
country.
So Travis and I wereoriginally from upstate New York,
(08:48):
and we knew Kristen from beingin the community in upstate.
So Coughlin and Geart is in Binghamton.
And before we even jumped intothis, because we are going to have
new listeners that followKristen and her journey, but are
just checking out this firstepisode, I think I just want to help
people understand.
Estate planning is one ofthose things that a lot of people
don't know if they're doing it well.
And when we get call ins frompeople all over the country that
are.
(09:08):
Some that have never addressedit and they're ashamed.
There are some that have justthe basics and they think they're
good.
There's some that are justconfused on their options.
So I think as you talk throughyour areas of focus and what you
do, I just want to give maybea little bit of grace to the listener
that tuned in today and mayfeel a little, you know, taken back,
that they're not as preparedas maybe they should be.
(09:28):
You're just like everybody else.
So what we want to do, I thinkin these conversations with you is
help our listeners understandwhat are their options, what can
they do and what questions dothey need to ask.
So.
So keep going with the questions.
Yeah, but we're not doing thatright now.
We're still talking about Chris.
We know we're going to learnmore about Gearhart.
Tell us, you know, give us the50 mile overview of Kaufmann.
(09:48):
Yeah, so you're, you'recorrect in that we're based out of
Binghamton, New York, but wedo have nine locations throughout
upstate New York andnortheastern Pennsylvania.
Okay.
We just opened another.
We have two offices down there.
We just opened one last weekactually down in Honesdale, Pennsylvania.
So we're excited about that.
(10:09):
Yeah, we have 58 attorneysthroughout those locations.
We're a full service law firm.
We do everything fromlitigation, municipal work, labor
and employment, workers comp,and obviously trust in the state.
So in a business and bankinggroup, they'd be upset I left them
(10:31):
out.
You oversee the trust andestate department?
I do, yeah.
I chair that group.
So, yeah, just kind of providesome leadership insofar as marketing
efforts, making sure thatwe're staying up to date on the latest
changes in the laws ortechniques, client relations.
(11:00):
Well, one of the things I'veenjoyed about working when we have
worked with Coughlin Gerhardtis some law firms you go to and the
attorneys are all kind of in competition.
And you'll go to an attorneyand you'll say, okay, I have a small
business owner and they've gota business.
Maybe they even have somenonprofit stuff that they're doing.
Then they've got their estate plan.
(11:22):
Then they maybe, you know,have other things going on in their
life.
And so we go and we say, okay,who's, who's the attorney that specializes
in business and who's theattorney that specializes in litigation
or who's the attorney thatspecializes in elder care or estate
planning and some firms.
One person raises their handand says, I do all of that, you know,
(11:43):
and it's like, no, you don't.
Which, which one?
Who on your team can I talk toabout this business issue?
If you're the estate personand what I like about Coughling Gerhart
and every experience I've everhad at least is when we come to Coughlin
Gerhardt and we say, hey, wehave a client and here's the, the
situation of it, we getconnected with the person with the
specialty that is best suiteddepending on the, you know, the intricacies
(12:04):
of the issue.
Well, I think at our firm, wetry to emphasize with our attorneys,
and it definitely was my experience.
I kind of grew up in the firm,if you will.
I started right out of law school.
You're encouraged to getreally good at one area of law.
Right.
(12:25):
Or a couple areas.
But we don't want to bedabbling in things that we don't
truly understand.
So we definitely collaboratevery well at our firm.
And, you know, it's somethingthat we seek to do.
Especially if you're lookingfor the best interest for your client.
Right.
(12:45):
Me, with my limited knowledgein a certain area of law, really
shouldn't be the personhelping you if there's someone else
here who's got, you know, abetter background, better suited
to fit that client's needs.
So we try to have a definiteclient focus with anything that we
do here.
(13:06):
And.
Well, that's one of the thingsSteve and I talk about all the time
to our listeners is the ideathat when you go and you work with
somebody, you are looking forsomebody who can work as part of
a team, who is not afraid tosay, I've got this other person that
works at my firm or even adifferent company, but they're going
to take care of you betterthan I can take care of you.
That's the sign of an ultimate professional.
(13:28):
Right.
That were a fiduciary.
You know, attorneys arefiduciaries in their own way with
the work that they do.
And, you know, the duty ofloyalty to a client is to say, you
know, I'm not worried.
The duty of care.
I think it kind of.
It can be in either box, butyou have a duty to decline to say,
not my area of expertise, butthis person over here is really good
(13:51):
and they're going to help you.
Yep.
So where does your.
You're in the estate planninglane, mostly.
Where does that passion come from?
How did you get into estate planning?
Was it just okay, there was ajob opening and I'll try it, or did
you know that that's what youwanted to do?
I.
(14:12):
So when I first started, youkind of get a exposure to many different
areas at the firm.
You know, the thing I likeabout estate planning is it's a different
kind of client that you'reworking with.
It's a.
It's a proactive client.
(14:33):
You know, as a lawyer,sometimes you come into a situation
and you're doing the best youcan on a really bad situation, and
you can only get so manyresults that the law will let you
obtain.
Whereas with the estateplanning, the part that I really
love is.
(14:53):
It's like a puzzle.
You know, you get to get inthere, you get to figure it out and
proactively put things inmotion to obtain a better result
for the client.
So I love that proactivenessto it.
And I also like how peoplefocused it is.
(15:15):
So my day is, you know, quitea few appointments with a lot of
different clients.
So you're, you're interactingwith the public and, and having conversations
and, you know, we'll get intothis, I'm, I'm sure.
But if anyone tells you thatestate planning is one size fits
all and it's, you know, acookie cutter process you should
(15:35):
run because it's, you reallyhave to find out what's important
to the client and what theirobjectives are.
So there's a lot of thosetypes of connections that you get
to establish with clients.
I think one of the interestingthings with the state, we don't talk
about it a lot, but you've gotstate laws and every state is different.
(15:57):
So somebody.
We could talk about what wecan do in New York, which is different
than what we can do inPennsylvania, which is different
than what we do in Tennessee,which is different than what we would
do in Florida.
Those are state laws, but youalso have federal laws.
Right.
And so there's, there's somerules at the federal level and then
there's rules at the state level.
And you, you have to kind ofdance between all of that and then
(16:18):
sometimes you have people thatare kind of spread out over states,
multiple states, and you'retrying to deal with that.
But then, like you said,everybody's life is unique.
And one of the things that,when I think about a good estate
planning attorney, I mean,we've seen cookie cutter attorneys
before that kind of have thetemplate and everybody goes in the
(16:40):
template.
And we know that because weget the drafts of the documents and
we look at it and like, theyforgot to cut and paste the right
names and stuff into it.
Right.
So you see a little bit of that.
But like, for an attorney, ifyou're going to be in the estate
area, like you're saying,where you know everybody's situation
is unique, you have to be opento the creativity and the artistry,
let's say, of being anattorney, because you're really helping
(17:02):
people solve problems.
Yeah.
You have people proactivelycoming to you and saying, kristen,
this is what I'm worriedabout, or this is what I'm trying
to achieve.
And then you help them figureout not just the most legal way to
do it.
Obviously, it has to be legal,otherwise it's going to get blown
up eventually.
But also, you know, with that.
Yeah.
(17:23):
A way that works for their situation.
Right.
Like, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to gift assets to
a family member.
And I think also looking forefficient ways to do it for the client
as well.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I think that's whatmakes my job interesting for me.
Every client is unique andtheir situation is unique.
(17:46):
So getting to learn what thosedetails are and then to come up with
creative solutions that it'svery rewarding.
Yeah.
What do you think makes a goodestate planning attorney?
Because I'm thinking of somework that.
That I had done with a clientyears ago with one of your predecessors
(18:09):
at Coffinger.
I don't know if this attorneyis actively working anymore, but.
Or practicing.
But I'm thinking of a messagethat she had sent to the client and
the way that she addressed aparticular issue.
And when I think about anattorney, an estate planning attorney,
really being a good estateplanning attorney is one of the things
(18:31):
that I think about.
What do you think?
Before I get to say my spielis, because I just want to see if
we're on the same page.
What do you think makes areally good estate planning attorney?
Like, if you were a client,knowing what you know, what would
you look for?
I think you want to findsomebody who communicates well.
(18:53):
You know, I think anybody whogoes to see a lawyer, you have those
expectations of competency,and they're going to do it right.
But you want someone who cancommunicate with you and teach you
what you need to know in a waythat you can understand it.
(19:15):
And you also want an attorneywho's listening to what's important
to you.
So I think if you felt rushedor not heard those, those would be,
you know, red flags or warningsigns that it may not be a good fit.
(19:35):
So I had.
Had.
So we intercept this letter.
This.
This client had come, and Iforget how they.
They got to us, but they hadcome to us and they had a letter
that one of your attorneys hadwritten to them about some planning
that had been proposed to themfrom a financial advisor.
And the financial advisor wasessentially trying to use your attorney
(19:59):
to kind of support themselling the client an annuity as
part of their estate plan.
And so the attorney hadresponded and was basically saying,
you know, that's prettyinappropriate, and really advocating
for the client about seeking asecond opinion and trying to help
(20:19):
them understand that that's.
That's not really estate planning.
They're just trying to Sell a product.
And I think that that's.
We've had situations wherewe've had what I think, you know,
attorneys have done poor work.
And then we've had attorneyslike this that just, you know, you
can really trust that they'regoing to advocate for the client.
And I think attorneys, on theother hand, too, they're in the same
(20:40):
situation where they're seeingother professionals and they're going
ill.
Okay, you're making thisreally difficult for the client.
You know, like, we can tellthat this is a.
In our industry.
And, you know, this podcast isactually about our industry.
We, we.
We want to you that it bridgesinto your work.
But in our industry, when youwork for, like, an insurance company,
(21:02):
they actually teach you to goout and find attorneys and get attorneys
to partner with you in estateplanning because it makes selling
the large life insuranceseasier, because the attorney can
be like, oh, of course youneed an eyelet.
And, you know, let's put somelife insurance in that.
And so the attorney writes theeyelet and the insurance agent gets
the sale.
And like, nine times out of10, they didn't really need to do
that.
(21:23):
And.
But it was for the sale.
So one of the things that whenI look for an attorney and I'm looking
for somebody, you know, for aclient, I'm looking for somebody
that we can really trust isnot trying to sell them stuff that
they don't need, but alsosomebody's trying to advocate for
them and say, you know, thatright there.
And not necessarily, well, Iwant to send you to my guy.
(21:44):
Right.
But somebody looking at it,just putting it in writing, and that
was what was great about it.
The attorney actually put itin writing and said, these are the
reasons why I don't think thisis good for you.
And they did it.
Like you just said in plainEnglish, like, it was easy to understand.
Okay, this might be the issue.
And it wasn't derogatory.
It was very polite, very professional.
But it got across.
(22:05):
I just thought it wasfascinating to see that kind of advocacy.
Yeah, well, so we talked alittle bit about attorneys.
There's definitely adifference between different attorneys.
Right.
In different areas of specialty.
And I think that gets intothat whole point about, you know,
trying to make sure that, youknow, we're advocating for the client
(22:26):
and we're getting the rightpeople on the right team in front
of people.
And I was really hopingKristin would Travis teed you up
with the passion for estate planning.
I hope.
We were going to crack openyour middle school yearbook and next
Year picture is going to besomeday, I hope to lead a trust in
estate apart, because I feellike for consumers out there, especially
(22:47):
when it comes to estateplanning, you have so many different
scenarios.
People that are afraid to paysomebody to do it, so they go online
and they create a will.com orwhatever it is.
And so there's a lot ofmisconceptions when it comes to attorneys.
And I think to Travis'squestion, what makes a good attorney?
We've talked with people thathave trusted a professional sitting
(23:08):
in front of them who claimsthey're working in their best interests,
and they leave with thingsthey don't really need, and they
pay for things that they don'tneed to have.
And what that creates is a badexperience, a bad taste in their
mouth where it's very hard.
Trust is one thing that onceyou lose it, it's very hard to get
back.
And unfortunately, whetherit's in your world or our world in
the financial servicesindustry, you're sometimes having
(23:30):
to overcome what otherprofessionals have done along the
way, because you really aretrying to help people today.
Sure.
And so even for those peopleout there that are trying to, wherever
they live, find a good attorney.
Are.
Are there things that, likeyou said, communication would be
helpful, like options, what just.
Just so that people have anidea of if they came to meet with
(23:51):
somebody like you.
Like, what is typically.
Because this is interesting,like, what is a first meeting?
Like?
Is it just more of, likegetting to know?
Is everything done in one meeting?
Is it a series of meetings?
What is your profession?
How have you matured?
How have you grown?
And if somebody came and satwith you just to give them an experience
of what that should look like.
Yeah.
(24:11):
So up front, and I think thisis really important for clients to
kind of clue into is they needto know what the process is up front.
And if you can't gather thatfrom the law firm you're talking
to, you're probably talking tothe wrong law firm.
Because all of us who doestate planning, there typically
(24:34):
is a process.
So I appreciate the question.
Initially, I always send outto my clients a little questionnaire.
I want to know some familybackground, I want to know some asset
information.
Estate planning is very asset focused.
(24:55):
And so I think to do a goodjob as an attorney, you definitely
need to understand what you'reactually planning with and for.
So I send that out to myclients in advance.
And then we have the firstmeeting where we'll talk through,
you know, family dynamics,we'll talk through their assets.
(25:16):
I will Explain what happenswhen people pass away and especially
with the assets that they have.
And, you know, we talk aboutwhether it's going to pass in a probate
way or a non probate way.
We talk about whether goingthrough probate is, is appropriate
in their situation, you know,or, or is it going to be such a process
(25:38):
that, you know, maybe weshould make plans to opt out of probate
with a trust per se, or.
So we talk through those typesof issues.
Usually by the end of thatfirst meeting, I kind of have an
idea of where we're goinginsofar as documents.
And then I tell my clientsthat I'm going to go ahead and put
(25:59):
the documents together.
I think it's kind of hardsometimes to conceptualize some of
these documents.
And it's my belief that thesooner I can get a product, a work
product in front of a clientso they can read through it, probably
the quicker we'll get, youknow, to a resolution, which is what
they want.
You know, they came to belooking to have this kind of tied
(26:22):
up.
And then once the clients getthe drafts, sometimes we have a quick
meeting, whether it's on thephone or in person to review certain
aspects of it.
If anything's confusing or thelegalese is, you know, a little too
much, we can cut through someof that, talk about, you know, some
(26:43):
of the decisions that theyneed to make.
And then usually you've gotyour last meeting would be the signing.
So you're sitting down andyou're formally signing in front
of witnesses, which isn'trequired in New York and in Pennsylvania,
you know, you would formallysign those documents.
And then after they're signed,sometimes there's some additional
(27:05):
signatures we got to get afterthe fact from other key players.
So sometimes there's thatcleanup at the end.
What are you seeing as thebiggest challenges that clients are
facing?
So they're, they're coming inand maybe for their first time they're
going to be meeting with you,you know, regarding the estate plan.
(27:26):
What's the biggest challengesthat they're probably that you see
repetitively?
I, I think probably gettingorganized and getting going.
As I already have said, it'svery asset focused.
So clients getting their handsaround what they actually have and
how it's titled, sometimesthat can be hard for clients to work
(27:51):
through.
So I think that might be oneof the big challenges is just kind
of getting organized to get started.
Yeah, we're actually startingto work on a book about the whole
process of death.
And from a planner'sperspective, Working with people
as somebody's diagnosed orpasses away from the perspective
(28:15):
of both the person who'sdiagnosed and the person who's going
through it with them andtalking about the estate planning
and talking about how peopleare a lot of times afraid or there's
something that's holding themback to procrastinating.
They don't have all the answers.
It's confusing.
Like you said earlier, if youtalk to the wrong attorney who's
not necessarily communicatingin a way, they can understand it.
(28:36):
Yeah, it's overwhelming for people.
Sure.
And one of the things that wewere talking about in one of the
briefs with the book, one ofthe interviews that we were doing
is.
Is how it can for some peoplewho are very private or maybe a little
bit insecure about what theyhave or what's going on.
It can be a little bit likeundressing in front of a room full
(28:58):
of people.
That's kind of what it canfeel like.
It's like I'm very vulnerable now.
I'm exposing myself, and I'mnot really certain what the person
on the other.
What they're going to think orsay or do.
And one of the things torealize with a good attorney, same
thing with a good advisor, isthat we've done it before for a lot
of people, and I promise you,we've seen something crazier than
(29:19):
whatever you think you havegoing on.
It's like going to a really,really good doctor, you know, who
specializes in, you know, let's.
You name it, right?
Whatever they specialize in,let's say that they're a dermatologist.
They've probably seen somekind of skin issue worse than yours.
Right.
Don't be afraid.
You're there for help.
I think people a lot of timeshave that.
And I know we've had clientsthat have come in with millions of
(29:40):
dollars and they said, well,we didn't think we could come to
you earlier because we didn'thave enough money.
And it's like, okay, well,stop thinking about.
Stop judging yourself comparedto other people.
And then procrastination.
We see most often clients whohave gone to an attorney, they get
the drafts.
And I don't want to talk aboutthe process yet because we're going
to talk about that later.
But they get the drafts from you.
So you draft up, you know,here's what.
(30:03):
What we think you said, pleaselook it over, make sure everything's
spelled right, and we kind ofhave it structurally right.
Then they get overwhelmed atthat part because sometimes there
might be A blank.
And like, okay, you have tothink about this contingent beneficiary
or this backup executor or something.
And at that point they put iton the pile of papers on their desk
and they're just kind of like,I don't know what to do, so I'm not
(30:24):
going to do anything.
Yeah.
Yep.
One thing I tell clients a lotis we're going to do the best we
can with what we know right now.
And I think sometimes you getsome of these clients who want to
have an end product that isgoing to be good for the rest of
(30:45):
their life.
And there's so many changesthat occur in life that sometimes
they're taking on a test thatit never really was meant to be.
You got to do the best you canwith what we know now and the assets
that we have now and thepeople that are involved now.
Right.
And not that you can't buildsome contingencies in there, but
(31:07):
I think you could driveyourself crazy, you know, trying
to.
What do they say?
Don't let good be the enemy of great.
Right.
Like you need to get something.
And I, I think a lot of it'spersonality type.
I think that there's some,there's different people that sometimes
just don't want to deal with it.
But normally by the time theyget to the attorney, they've admitted
they need to deal with it.
(31:28):
But then you have the typethat needs to answer every question
before they can do anything.
Like your engineering types.
A lot of times it's like, no,we need to answer most of the questions
and the ones that we can't.
We need to create a fail safefor you and someday we'll figure
out that other piece.
But until we figure out thatother piece, we at least need 90%
of this done.
Yeah.
(31:50):
So how could we maybe address.
If we just go back to theissue that you say is the most common
on your end, which is justgetting organized, are there ways
that you've seen like, okay,so you, you send people your organizer.
Yep.
Is there any other kind oftidbits of, of suggestions or anything
(32:10):
that you have with gettingorganized to come in and see an attorney?
Well, in all honesty, peoplewho work usually with, with financial
advisors like yourselves,they're often organized.
You know, they've had thoseconversations already with their
planners about what they have.
So that's a help.
Also, especially this time ofyear when we're all starting to tackle
(32:34):
our tax organizers.
I think tax time, you're kindof going through the same data anyway.
Maybe for different purposes,obviously, for estate planning, but,
you know, now's a good time tothink about it.
Yeah, yeah.
Pretty good at taxes, but Iget the tax organizer still from
(32:57):
my CPA and I'm looking at andgoing, there's 30 pages of questions
on there, which is verysimilar to what you're.
Because I've seen your list before.
I've seen other.
Yeah, very similar to the factfinder that they're getting from
your firms.
And if you work with a goodfinancial advisor, especially if
this is what they do, there'sa lot of financial advisors say,
I do estate planning.
It's like, yeah, okay, yousell stuff to people you know, or
(33:21):
recommend it to an attorney.
But if the planner really doesestate planning, they're going to
help you draft up the outlineand communicate with the attorney.
Absolutely.
I will say, you know, I'veworked with plenty of your planners
over at Seed, and you guys dohelp organize all that client information.
(33:44):
And, um, in fact, the lasttime I worked with Jessica Blake,
you know, she just sent meeverything I needed.
I didn't even need my organizer.
She had it all.
All put together.
So it was.
It was fantastic.
We're going to get bumperstickers to say, we work with Jess.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what it should.
(34:04):
Yeah, yeah.
You're paying an advisor to doestate planning.
They should be liaisoning withthe estate planner and making sure
that.
Because they're the ones whoactually understand, like, we understand
what you're looking for.
Somebody who's coming to youfor the first time may not actually
know.
And the other big piece ofthat, too, that, for instance, we
do, is we also provide some ofthe projection material.
(34:28):
So a lot of times people go toan estate attorney and they'll say,
this is what I have right now.
But you kind of do need toknow, okay, you have that.
But are you getting a biginheritance down the road?
Are you spending a lot?
Are you saving a lot?
Like, you might have a milliondollars now, but if we did a projection
30 years out, you could be at$5 million.
You kind of need to know thatas might feel like that.
(34:50):
That empowers you as an attorney.
Yep.
And if you're missing thatinformation, you have to somehow
try to draw that out of the client.
Or maybe you're not.
You're not getting the whole picture.
And maybe you would haverecommended some other things as
well.
Definitely.
Absolutely.
Yep.
Well, I'm gonna.
I'm.
I'm not gonna pick on the.
On.
(35:11):
On the industry today.
Can I ask.
Can I Ask you a question here?
Yeah.
Is it going to pick on the industry?
No, no, no.
So you, so you talk aboutJess, our industry.
I think Travis has done areally masterful job over the years
with his own experiencedealing with clients, teaching downstream.
Right.
Leading new planners on ourteam like this is best practices.
Maybe this was an area wherewe could have been more organized.
(35:31):
So for the next round,everyone's going to do it this way.
And so we've become reallyproficient with planners on this
is the expectation from seed's behalf.
Dealing with professionals.
We want to be organized.
You lead a team, right.
You have attorneys of alldifferent maturity levels and ages
and experience.
What we talk about on the showall the time is I don't think people
really understand the optionsthat are available to them when it
(35:53):
comes to their money and theirfinancial planning.
So they just do whatever theprofessional says.
Have you had any experiencesdealing with other attorneys on this
team approach where maybe anattorney met with a couple or an
individual, they thought theyhad a good idea, but then you reviewed
case notes or met with themand said, did you also know they
could do this?
Like there's got to be valueon the attorney side from the strength
(36:16):
of everybody working together.
And so I think one of Travis'squestions, if you go to a professional
that's a solo practitioner,they kind of do a little bit of everything.
They may be unfortunatelylimited in terms of what they know
are available options.
So they'll give you the willhealth care proxy of attorney, but
they may be missing.
Has there been anything neatthat's come from your years of experience
either professionally or withleading others that's just helped
(36:39):
you teach downstream or likenoticing things in case notes or
in the organizer that maybe ayounger attorney may not realize,
but because of years, years ofexperience, you're like, hey, that's
actually a bigger issue.
We should be talking about that.
Yeah, I, I, I.
One big area comes to mindwith that question and that's understanding
(37:02):
the dynamics of like elder lawtype issues, especially like skilled
nursing home care with theMedicaid system.
In a, in an estate planningmeeting, sometimes you select certain
options, if you will, in yourplanning that set you up nicely to
(37:26):
take care of yourself betterlater on.
So I would say that would bean example, you know, where experience
can, even though you're comingin maybe as a 55 year old couple
and you want to talk about,you know, getting a will in place
(37:48):
or trust, but during thatprocess you can have some of that
added value of knowing you'reMaking certain selections that might
help you with asset protectionlater on, for example.
So I think that is a good example.
We've seen that a lot too,especially with business owners.
(38:11):
Businesses are an interestingthing because you can establish a
business in a way that it kindof operates like its own person.
And you can have an estateattorney that can handle all the
estate stuff.
But baked into the business,into the operating agreements or
however it's structured, oreven standalone buy sell agreements,
(38:35):
you can have things baked intoit that trigger the business to do
different things.
So you can, like, forinstance, you can put in your will,
give me.
Give my business to my spousewhen I die.
But that business could bestructured in a way that prohibits
it from going to your spouse.
And it triggers outside of thewill and outside of the whole probate
process and everything.
(38:56):
The.
The other issue too, thatwe've seen, and this is just an interesting
thing, and I use this examplea lot, but clients sometimes will.
Will come to the attorney andsay, you know, I want to leave money
to charity.
I want to leave $50,000 toUnited Way or something like that.
And we'll put it in, you know,you can put that in the will, leave
them $50,000, and then they goand they change.
(39:17):
All their beneficiaries go totheir spouse and then to their kids
if their spouse isn't there.
Well, that means none of themoney goes through the estate, so
none of it gets to the will.
So none of it actually can do that.
So if there is something thataccidentally sneaks through, like
a 529 account or something,now all of a sudden that may be subject
to the bequest for thecharity, and now you've blown up
your grandkids college fundbecause you don't understand how
(39:38):
it works.
So training with a broaderdepth of knowledge and how some of
these things work, I think canat least point to it and say, hey,
you at least got to have thatchecked out over there, because those
are where the pitfalls reallycome in.
Somebody thinks they've donereally great planning, and maybe
they had a great piece ofplanning done and had a wonderful
attorney.
You know, Kristen set them up perfectly.
(40:01):
But, you know, they kind ofchecked out at the end about, hey,
you got to check this, thisand this box.
Yeah.
And you know, and then theymiss that part.
So, you know, and that'sespecially the small business part.
And we've worked with some ofyour small business attorneys.
Understanding how those workin the estate plan or outside of
the estate plan, I think isreally, really important.
(40:22):
And what you need for that,like, maybe you need a trust for
that, maybe you don't.
Maybe you just need to, youknow, look at who your shareholders
are or your buy sellagreements internally and how you
structure that.
But it's a big deal to get it right.
So I want to save everythingelse for our next episode.
We're going to do two episodeswith you, Kristen.
Next episode.
We'll get into it much quickerbecause mostly because I won't stumble
(40:45):
over myself with the introsbecause we got it down now.
It's good practice, this one.
But what we want to get intonext episode is.
Or our next.
The episode.
Yeah, this is a podcast.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, is it.
But anyway, really talkingabout leading up to the estate administration
(41:07):
so you're alive and youhaven't passed away yet, that kind
of journey.
Because there's a point whereyou can wait too long and now you
can't do anything about it.
And then also after the fact,okay, death has happened and now
what happens?
And I want to kind of crossover into that and share that with
(41:27):
listeners so that theyunderstand why this is so important.
Sure.
And Kirsten, this has been.
And the reason I asked myquestion as we bring this one to
a close is I think a lot ofour listeners, we did a whole episode
on trust.
You know, I think we're nottalking about the person that your
spider sense goes off, you'resitting in front of and you know
this is heading in the wrong direction.
I think there's a lot ofpeople that are trying to do the
(41:47):
right thing and they have goodthings put in place, but they just
don't know why, what the gradeis that they might be missing out
on.
And it's people have a guy,they have a gal, but you want a professional
because you operate a moneybusiness that's going to look at
what you're doing and say,hey, I know we were going down this
path, but there's somethingbetter we could be doing.
I think that's why people goto podcasts and they watch YouTube
videos, is they want thesecrets that people don't know.
(42:10):
And that comes from experienceand teaming.
So I think this is going to bereally exciting.
Kind of get into this nextepisode, kind of how this all works.
So as always, thanks forstopping by.
Ditch the suits.
Travis and I, it's a lot offun having guests on the show.
Kristen, you rocked episode one.
Friends, family, come on back.
Check her out for episodenumber two.
We're have a lot of fun.
Thanks for checking out Ditchthe Suits.
Be sure to write a review ordrop a comment about this episode.
(42:32):
And if you want more likethis, head over to ditchesuits.com
you can send us a message andget in touch.
Let us know how we can helpand be sure to share any topics you'd
be interested in having uscover on the show.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
Thanks for being our guest andchecking out Ditch the Suits.
Foreign.
Welcome to Ditch the Suitspodcast, where we share insights
nobody in the financialservices industry wants you to know
about.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
So buckle up and welcome toDitch the Suits.
(00:21):
Hey, guys.
Steve Campbell from Ditch theSuits with a special announcement.
We've recently transitionedall of our episodes to Patreon.
We would encourage you tovisit patreon.com you can search
Ditch the Suits and subscribeto our channel.
If you are interested in anyof our previous episode or seasons,
they're now available on Patreon.
Get notifications for newepisodes right in your inbox and
(00:42):
never miss an episode.
Head to patreon.com and joinour Ditch to Suits channel.
And the link is in the show notes.
On this podcast, we regularlyare talking about vetting professionals
and how to know if you have acompetent advisor or advisors on,
you know, a broader team.
Your cpa, your account or yourattorney, your financial advisors,
(01:03):
your investment people, yourinsurance people.
And a lot of people aren'treally interested in financial advisors.
They're thinking, I should dothis myself for a lot of reasons.
Sometimes it's because theyjust don't like having to take advice
from people or they don't wantto pay people.
(01:24):
I think that's a lot of timeswhat it is.
Or they don't think they needthem because, you know, I can Google,
kind of like WebMD.
Yeah.
And Google never leads anybody astray.
There's no way you could findbad information on Google, as we've
talked about before inprevious episodes.
But I.
We want to take thisconversation today and talk about
the legal side of financial planning.
(01:46):
And we did a series a coupleof episodes ago where we were talking
to Jessica Blake, one of ourwealth managers.
She talked a lot about estate planning.
And it was awesome.
And leading up to estateplanning and into estate planning
is a place where normally yourattorney's gonna be involved to a
pretty good degree.
And a lot of times people arekind of skipping that part.
(02:07):
We're maybe getting it wrong.
So the next couple ofepisodes, we're gonna focus on actually
that piece.
Um, I think that that whenyou're thinking about stability with
your family, that's one of the.
You don't really realize itall the time because normally you're
dealing with attorneys whensomething really horrible has happened.
(02:28):
Right.
Whether you're being sued orsuing somebody or somebody's passed
away.
And.
And you can't get at somethingthat you need to get at or something
like that.
And then all Of a suddenyou're like, okay, now who do I get
to help me?
And a lot of times it's goingto be the attorney at that point.
But there's a lot that we cando to make that easier or possibly
not even needed.
And that's what we're going togo over today.
(02:49):
And so we've got our.
Our guest with us today isKristen Luce, who is an attorney,
a partner, and a chair of herfirm's trust and estates practice
group.
And her practice focuses onestate planning, trust and estate
administration, guardianship,adoptions, litigated estate matters,
and real estate.
That's pretty good.
(03:10):
I'm trying, I'm reading fromthe script today.
I didn't want to get any ofthat intro.
This is, this is a big day.
We talked about it rightbefore we came on, but Kristen is
actually our first externalguest in our four years of Ditch
the Suits.
We had just Blake on, but sheworks with us every single day and
she rocked it.
So if you want moreinformation, go listen to those four
episodes.
But Kristen Luce we've knownfor years in the community together
(03:31):
and as we said in 2025, one ofour goals was to bring some outside
voices to have conversationsbecause this is Ditch the Suits podcast
and if you're here as a friendor you know, Kristen, welcome.
I'm Steve Campbell.
I serve as our seniormarketing director at Seed Planning
Group.
Travis, a co host, is our CEO.
Seed is a fee only financialplanning firm and this show is all
(03:52):
about us bringing ourcollective consciousness, working
with people every day to helpyou get the most from your money
in life.
And so this episode, these fewepisodes we're going to do with Kristen,
I think is going to be a lotof fun because Jess did a great job
from a planner's perspectivetalking about the coordination that
has to go into it.
And one of the things thatcame out of that conversation with
Jess I thought was great isestate planning is challenging because
(04:13):
it's like the one thing thathappens when you're no longer here.
And so we had talked about inthat series, like if you make a mistake
with an investment or youclaim something the wrong way, you
might have time to fix it.
But estate planning is reallyhard for people to grasp the severity
of doing it and doing it wellbecause it most likely kicks in for
the most part when you're nolonger here.
(04:33):
And so I think this is goingto be a great conversation we had
just talking about fromplanners perspective by having Kristen,
who's actually in estateplanning and works with A firm and
other attorneys from herperspective as a professional.
So, really excited about thesefew episodes we're going to get into.
Let's take a break to hear aword from our sponsor.
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(04:53):
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Yeah, so we're going to diveright into introducing Kristen.
(05:35):
And before we do, you know, wetalk about having qualified people
and we talk a lot of timeswith our firm when we talk about
estate planning.
I think Jess talked about itin one of the episodes that we did
with her about.
We have a list at the firm ofattorneys that we've worked with
that check the boxes.
As far as we're concerned,Kristen is one of those and she's
(05:55):
been on it for a very long time.
So we're really excited tobring somebody that we've actually
done a lot of work with, notjust, I mean, we get requests all
the time for people who wantto be on the podcast.
And we're like, we don't havea clue who these people are and what,
you know, do they do, whatthey actually say.
But with Kristin, we actuallyknow her work and her firm pretty
well and so we're reallyexcited to have them.
(06:16):
So, Kristen, welcome.
I am so excited to be here today.
And quite honestly, estateplanning is one of my favorite topics
to talk about from a legal perspective.
So this is exciting.
Well, we're going to have alittle bit of fun then.
So talk to us a little bitabout you, though.
Your background, where you'reat right now and, you know, so people
(06:38):
don't have to take my word for it.
Your area of focus.
Yeah, so.
So at the firm here, I do alot of trust in estate work and that
includes like, estate planning.
And I'm sure we're going totalk about all the different aspects
of, you know, what's includedin that.
I also do estate administration.
(06:59):
So after people have passedaway, whether it's winding up their
trust or having to probate anestate, there's just different aspects
of what happens when peoplepass away.
I'm very involved in that.
I also do some guardianship work.
So if we've got a situationwhere we've had an adult who was
competent their life and allof a sudden lose competency for some
(07:25):
reason, there's a whole courtprocess that we have to go through
to get a guardianship in place.
So I do some of that work.
I also have done adoptionsover the years.
That's a really good day incourt when you finalize those.
Those are a lot of fun.
And then I do real estate.
(07:45):
You know, often when you'redealing with an estate or after someone's
passed away, you've got tosell the house.
And so I definitely have awhole real estate component to.
To what I do.
And you have a.
You have another little tinywrinkle to your background, too.
Weren't you a judge for a while?
(08:05):
Yeah, I.
I was appointed and thenelected for a period of time to the
town of Binghamton.
I was the judge out there, so.
Okay, that was really interesting.
Yeah.
But I'm no longer a judge, you know.
Yeah.
So we don't have to call you,your honor.
(08:26):
We can just.
No, you do not.
No, no.
Kristen works.
Yeah.
Currently you're at Coughlinand Geart, which is a, A, A, A law
firm that's based in Binghamton.
Right.
I think is the mail.
We, we.
We would call where you are.
Binghamton.
Right.
New York.
Okay.
Just so everybody knows, wehave listeners from all over the
country.
So Travis and I wereoriginally from upstate New York,
(08:48):
and we knew Kristen from beingin the community in upstate.
So Coughlin and Geart is in Binghamton.
And before we even jumped intothis, because we are going to have
new listeners that followKristen and her journey, but are
just checking out this firstepisode, I think I just want to help
people understand.
Estate planning is one ofthose things that a lot of people
don't know if they're doing it well.
And when we get call ins frompeople all over the country that
are.
(09:08):
Some that have never addressedit and they're ashamed.
There are some that have justthe basics and they think they're
good.
There's some that are justconfused on their options.
So I think as you talk throughyour areas of focus and what you
do, I just want to give maybea little bit of grace to the listener
that tuned in today and mayfeel a little, you know, taken back,
that they're not as preparedas maybe they should be.
(09:28):
You're just like everybody else.
So what we want to do, I thinkin these conversations with you is
help our listeners understandwhat are their options, what can
they do and what questions dothey need to ask.
So.
So keep going with the questions.
Yeah, but we're not doing thatright now.
We're still talking about Chris.
We know we're going to learnmore about Gearhart.
Tell us, you know, give us the50 mile overview of Kaufmann.
(09:48):
Yeah, so you're, you'recorrect in that we're based out of
Binghamton, New York, but wedo have nine locations throughout
upstate New York andnortheastern Pennsylvania.
Okay.
We just opened another.
We have two offices down there.
We just opened one last weekactually down in Honesdale, Pennsylvania.
So we're excited about that.
(10:09):
Yeah, we have 58 attorneysthroughout those locations.
We're a full service law firm.
We do everything fromlitigation, municipal work, labor
and employment, workers comp,and obviously trust in the state.
So in a business and bankinggroup, they'd be upset I left them
(10:31):
out.
You oversee the trust andestate department?
I do, yeah.
I chair that group.
So, yeah, just kind of providesome leadership insofar as marketing
efforts, making sure thatwe're staying up to date on the latest
changes in the laws ortechniques, client relations.
(11:00):
Well, one of the things I'veenjoyed about working when we have
worked with Coughlin Gerhardtis some law firms you go to and the
attorneys are all kind of in competition.
And you'll go to an attorneyand you'll say, okay, I have a small
business owner and they've gota business.
Maybe they even have somenonprofit stuff that they're doing.
Then they've got their estate plan.
(11:22):
Then they maybe, you know,have other things going on in their
life.
And so we go and we say, okay,who's, who's the attorney that specializes
in business and who's theattorney that specializes in litigation
or who's the attorney thatspecializes in elder care or estate
planning and some firms.
One person raises their handand says, I do all of that, you know,
(11:43):
and it's like, no, you don't.
Which, which one?
Who on your team can I talk toabout this business issue?
If you're the estate personand what I like about Coughling Gerhart
and every experience I've everhad at least is when we come to Coughlin
Gerhardt and we say, hey, wehave a client and here's the, the
situation of it, we getconnected with the person with the
specialty that is best suiteddepending on the, you know, the intricacies
(12:04):
of the issue.
Well, I think at our firm, wetry to emphasize with our attorneys,
and it definitely was my experience.
I kind of grew up in the firm,if you will.
I started right out of law school.
You're encouraged to getreally good at one area of law.
Right.
(12:25):
Or a couple areas.
But we don't want to bedabbling in things that we don't
truly understand.
So we definitely collaboratevery well at our firm.
And, you know, it's somethingthat we seek to do.
Especially if you're lookingfor the best interest for your client.
Right.
(12:45):
Me, with my limited knowledgein a certain area of law, really
shouldn't be the personhelping you if there's someone else
here who's got, you know, abetter background, better suited
to fit that client's needs.
So we try to have a definiteclient focus with anything that we
do here.
(13:06):
And.
Well, that's one of the thingsSteve and I talk about all the time
to our listeners is the ideathat when you go and you work with
somebody, you are looking forsomebody who can work as part of
a team, who is not afraid tosay, I've got this other person that
works at my firm or even adifferent company, but they're going
to take care of you betterthan I can take care of you.
That's the sign of an ultimate professional.
(13:28):
Right.
That were a fiduciary.
You know, attorneys arefiduciaries in their own way with
the work that they do.
And, you know, the duty ofloyalty to a client is to say, you
know, I'm not worried.
The duty of care.
I think it kind of.
It can be in either box, butyou have a duty to decline to say,
not my area of expertise, butthis person over here is really good
(13:51):
and they're going to help you.
Yep.
So where does your.
You're in the estate planninglane, mostly.
Where does that passion come from?
How did you get into estate planning?
Was it just okay, there was ajob opening and I'll try it, or did
you know that that's what youwanted to do?
I.
(14:12):
So when I first started, youkind of get a exposure to many different
areas at the firm.
You know, the thing I likeabout estate planning is it's a different
kind of client that you'reworking with.
It's a.
It's a proactive client.
(14:33):
You know, as a lawyer,sometimes you come into a situation
and you're doing the best youcan on a really bad situation, and
you can only get so manyresults that the law will let you
obtain.
Whereas with the estateplanning, the part that I really
love is.
(14:53):
It's like a puzzle.
You know, you get to get inthere, you get to figure it out and
proactively put things inmotion to obtain a better result
for the client.
So I love that proactivenessto it.
And I also like how peoplefocused it is.
(15:15):
So my day is, you know, quitea few appointments with a lot of
different clients.
So you're, you're interactingwith the public and, and having conversations
and, you know, we'll get intothis, I'm, I'm sure.
But if anyone tells you thatestate planning is one size fits
all and it's, you know, acookie cutter process you should
(15:35):
run because it's, you reallyhave to find out what's important
to the client and what theirobjectives are.
So there's a lot of thosetypes of connections that you get
to establish with clients.
I think one of the interestingthings with the state, we don't talk
about it a lot, but you've gotstate laws and every state is different.
(15:57):
So somebody.
We could talk about what wecan do in New York, which is different
than what we can do inPennsylvania, which is different
than what we do in Tennessee,which is different than what we would
do in Florida.
Those are state laws, but youalso have federal laws.
Right.
And so there's, there's somerules at the federal level and then
there's rules at the state level.
And you, you have to kind ofdance between all of that and then
(16:18):
sometimes you have people thatare kind of spread out over states,
multiple states, and you'retrying to deal with that.
But then, like you said,everybody's life is unique.
And one of the things that,when I think about a good estate
planning attorney, I mean,we've seen cookie cutter attorneys
before that kind of have thetemplate and everybody goes in the
(16:40):
template.
And we know that because weget the drafts of the documents and
we look at it and like, theyforgot to cut and paste the right
names and stuff into it.
Right.
So you see a little bit of that.
But like, for an attorney, ifyou're going to be in the estate
area, like you're saying,where you know everybody's situation
is unique, you have to be opento the creativity and the artistry,
let's say, of being anattorney, because you're really helping
(17:02):
people solve problems.
Yeah.
You have people proactivelycoming to you and saying, kristen,
this is what I'm worriedabout, or this is what I'm trying
to achieve.
And then you help them figureout not just the most legal way to
do it.
Obviously, it has to be legal,otherwise it's going to get blown
up eventually.
But also, you know, with that.
Yeah.
(17:23):
A way that works for their situation.
Right.
Like, there's a lot ofdifferent ways to gift assets to
a family member.
And I think also looking forefficient ways to do it for the client
as well.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I think that's whatmakes my job interesting for me.
Every client is unique andtheir situation is unique.
(17:46):
So getting to learn what thosedetails are and then to come up with
creative solutions that it'svery rewarding.
Yeah.
What do you think makes a goodestate planning attorney?
Because I'm thinking of somework that.
That I had done with a clientyears ago with one of your predecessors
(18:09):
at Coffinger.
I don't know if this attorneyis actively working anymore, but.
Or practicing.
But I'm thinking of a messagethat she had sent to the client and
the way that she addressed aparticular issue.
And when I think about anattorney, an estate planning attorney,
really being a good estateplanning attorney is one of the things
(18:31):
that I think about.
What do you think?
Before I get to say my spielis, because I just want to see if
we're on the same page.
What do you think makes areally good estate planning attorney?
Like, if you were a client,knowing what you know, what would
you look for?
I think you want to findsomebody who communicates well.
(18:53):
You know, I think anybody whogoes to see a lawyer, you have those
expectations of competency,and they're going to do it right.
But you want someone who cancommunicate with you and teach you
what you need to know in a waythat you can understand it.
(19:15):
And you also want an attorneywho's listening to what's important
to you.
So I think if you felt rushedor not heard those, those would be,
you know, red flags or warningsigns that it may not be a good fit.
(19:35):
So I had.
Had.
So we intercept this letter.
This.
This client had come, and Iforget how they.
They got to us, but they hadcome to us and they had a letter
that one of your attorneys hadwritten to them about some planning
that had been proposed to themfrom a financial advisor.
And the financial advisor wasessentially trying to use your attorney
(19:59):
to kind of support themselling the client an annuity as
part of their estate plan.
And so the attorney hadresponded and was basically saying,
you know, that's prettyinappropriate, and really advocating
for the client about seeking asecond opinion and trying to help
(20:19):
them understand that that's.
That's not really estate planning.
They're just trying to Sell a product.
And I think that that's.
We've had situations wherewe've had what I think, you know,
attorneys have done poor work.
And then we've had attorneyslike this that just, you know, you
can really trust that they'regoing to advocate for the client.
And I think attorneys, on theother hand, too, they're in the same
(20:40):
situation where they're seeingother professionals and they're going
ill.
Okay, you're making thisreally difficult for the client.
You know, like, we can tellthat this is a.
In our industry.
And, you know, this podcast isactually about our industry.
We, we.
We want to you that it bridgesinto your work.
But in our industry, when youwork for, like, an insurance company,
(21:02):
they actually teach you to goout and find attorneys and get attorneys
to partner with you in estateplanning because it makes selling
the large life insuranceseasier, because the attorney can
be like, oh, of course youneed an eyelet.
And, you know, let's put somelife insurance in that.
And so the attorney writes theeyelet and the insurance agent gets
the sale.
And like, nine times out of10, they didn't really need to do
that.
(21:23):
And.
But it was for the sale.
So one of the things that whenI look for an attorney and I'm looking
for somebody, you know, for aclient, I'm looking for somebody
that we can really trust isnot trying to sell them stuff that
they don't need, but alsosomebody's trying to advocate for
them and say, you know, thatright there.
And not necessarily, well, Iwant to send you to my guy.
(21:44):
Right.
But somebody looking at it,just putting it in writing, and that
was what was great about it.
The attorney actually put itin writing and said, these are the
reasons why I don't think thisis good for you.
And they did it.
Like you just said in plainEnglish, like, it was easy to understand.
Okay, this might be the issue.
And it wasn't derogatory.
It was very polite, very professional.
But it got across.
(22:05):
I just thought it wasfascinating to see that kind of advocacy.
Yeah, well, so we talked alittle bit about attorneys.
There's definitely adifference between different attorneys.
Right.
In different areas of specialty.
And I think that gets intothat whole point about, you know,
trying to make sure that, youknow, we're advocating for the client
(22:26):
and we're getting the rightpeople on the right team in front
of people.
And I was really hopingKristin would Travis teed you up
with the passion for estate planning.
I hope.
We were going to crack openyour middle school yearbook and next
Year picture is going to besomeday, I hope to lead a trust in
estate apart, because I feellike for consumers out there, especially
(22:47):
when it comes to estateplanning, you have so many different
scenarios.
People that are afraid to paysomebody to do it, so they go online
and they create a will.com orwhatever it is.
And so there's a lot ofmisconceptions when it comes to attorneys.
And I think to Travis'squestion, what makes a good attorney?
We've talked with people thathave trusted a professional sitting
(23:08):
in front of them who claimsthey're working in their best interests,
and they leave with thingsthey don't really need, and they
pay for things that they don'tneed to have.
And what that creates is a badexperience, a bad taste in their
mouth where it's very hard.
Trust is one thing that onceyou lose it, it's very hard to get
back.
And unfortunately, whetherit's in your world or our world in
the financial servicesindustry, you're sometimes having
(23:30):
to overcome what otherprofessionals have done along the
way, because you really aretrying to help people today.
Sure.
And so even for those peopleout there that are trying to, wherever
they live, find a good attorney.
Are.
Are there things that, likeyou said, communication would be
helpful, like options, what just.
Just so that people have anidea of if they came to meet with
(23:51):
somebody like you.
Like, what is typically.
Because this is interesting,like, what is a first meeting?
Like?
Is it just more of, likegetting to know?
Is everything done in one meeting?
Is it a series of meetings?
What is your profession?
How have you matured?
How have you grown?
And if somebody came and satwith you just to give them an experience
of what that should look like.
Yeah.
(24:11):
So up front, and I think thisis really important for clients to
kind of clue into is they needto know what the process is up front.
And if you can't gather thatfrom the law firm you're talking
to, you're probably talking tothe wrong law firm.
Because all of us who doestate planning, there typically
(24:34):
is a process.
So I appreciate the question.
Initially, I always send outto my clients a little questionnaire.
I want to know some familybackground, I want to know some asset
information.
Estate planning is very asset focused.
(24:55):
And so I think to do a goodjob as an attorney, you definitely
need to understand what you'reactually planning with and for.
So I send that out to myclients in advance.
And then we have the firstmeeting where we'll talk through,
you know, family dynamics,we'll talk through their assets.
(25:16):
I will Explain what happenswhen people pass away and especially
with the assets that they have.
And, you know, we talk aboutwhether it's going to pass in a probate
way or a non probate way.
We talk about whether goingthrough probate is, is appropriate
in their situation, you know,or, or is it going to be such a process
(25:38):
that, you know, maybe weshould make plans to opt out of probate
with a trust per se, or.
So we talk through those typesof issues.
Usually by the end of thatfirst meeting, I kind of have an
idea of where we're goinginsofar as documents.
And then I tell my clientsthat I'm going to go ahead and put
(25:59):
the documents together.
I think it's kind of hardsometimes to conceptualize some of
these documents.
And it's my belief that thesooner I can get a product, a work
product in front of a clientso they can read through it, probably
the quicker we'll get, youknow, to a resolution, which is what
they want.
You know, they came to belooking to have this kind of tied
(26:22):
up.
And then once the clients getthe drafts, sometimes we have a quick
meeting, whether it's on thephone or in person to review certain
aspects of it.
If anything's confusing or thelegalese is, you know, a little too
much, we can cut through someof that, talk about, you know, some
(26:43):
of the decisions that theyneed to make.
And then usually you've gotyour last meeting would be the signing.
So you're sitting down andyou're formally signing in front
of witnesses, which isn'trequired in New York and in Pennsylvania,
you know, you would formallysign those documents.
And then after they're signed,sometimes there's some additional
(27:05):
signatures we got to get afterthe fact from other key players.
So sometimes there's thatcleanup at the end.
What are you seeing as thebiggest challenges that clients are
facing?
So they're, they're coming inand maybe for their first time they're
going to be meeting with you,you know, regarding the estate plan.
(27:26):
What's the biggest challengesthat they're probably that you see
repetitively?
I, I think probably gettingorganized and getting going.
As I already have said, it'svery asset focused.
So clients getting their handsaround what they actually have and
how it's titled, sometimesthat can be hard for clients to work
(27:51):
through.
So I think that might be oneof the big challenges is just kind
of getting organized to get started.
Yeah, we're actually startingto work on a book about the whole
process of death.
And from a planner'sperspective, Working with people
as somebody's diagnosed orpasses away from the perspective
(28:15):
of both the person who'sdiagnosed and the person who's going
through it with them andtalking about the estate planning
and talking about how peopleare a lot of times afraid or there's
something that's holding themback to procrastinating.
They don't have all the answers.
It's confusing.
Like you said earlier, if youtalk to the wrong attorney who's
not necessarily communicatingin a way, they can understand it.
(28:36):
Yeah, it's overwhelming for people.
Sure.
And one of the things that wewere talking about in one of the
briefs with the book, one ofthe interviews that we were doing
is.
Is how it can for some peoplewho are very private or maybe a little
bit insecure about what theyhave or what's going on.
It can be a little bit likeundressing in front of a room full
(28:58):
of people.
That's kind of what it canfeel like.
It's like I'm very vulnerable now.
I'm exposing myself, and I'mnot really certain what the person
on the other.
What they're going to think orsay or do.
And one of the things torealize with a good attorney, same
thing with a good advisor, isthat we've done it before for a lot
of people, and I promise you,we've seen something crazier than
(29:19):
whatever you think you havegoing on.
It's like going to a really,really good doctor, you know, who
specializes in, you know, let's.
You name it, right?
Whatever they specialize in,let's say that they're a dermatologist.
They've probably seen somekind of skin issue worse than yours.
Right.
Don't be afraid.
You're there for help.
I think people a lot of timeshave that.
And I know we've had clientsthat have come in with millions of
(29:40):
dollars and they said, well,we didn't think we could come to
you earlier because we didn'thave enough money.
And it's like, okay, well,stop thinking about.
Stop judging yourself comparedto other people.
And then procrastination.
We see most often clients whohave gone to an attorney, they get
the drafts.
And I don't want to talk aboutthe process yet because we're going
to talk about that later.
But they get the drafts from you.
So you draft up, you know,here's what.
(30:03):
What we think you said, pleaselook it over, make sure everything's
spelled right, and we kind ofhave it structurally right.
Then they get overwhelmed atthat part because sometimes there
might be A blank.
And like, okay, you have tothink about this contingent beneficiary
or this backup executor or something.
And at that point they put iton the pile of papers on their desk
and they're just kind of like,I don't know what to do, so I'm not
(30:24):
going to do anything.
Yeah.
Yep.
One thing I tell clients a lotis we're going to do the best we
can with what we know right now.
And I think sometimes you getsome of these clients who want to
have an end product that isgoing to be good for the rest of
(30:45):
their life.
And there's so many changesthat occur in life that sometimes
they're taking on a test thatit never really was meant to be.
You got to do the best you canwith what we know now and the assets
that we have now and thepeople that are involved now.
Right.
And not that you can't buildsome contingencies in there, but
(31:07):
I think you could driveyourself crazy, you know, trying
to.
What do they say?
Don't let good be the enemy of great.
Right.
Like you need to get something.
And I, I think a lot of it'spersonality type.
I think that there's some,there's different people that sometimes
just don't want to deal with it.
But normally by the time theyget to the attorney, they've admitted
they need to deal with it.
(31:28):
But then you have the typethat needs to answer every question
before they can do anything.
Like your engineering types.
A lot of times it's like, no,we need to answer most of the questions
and the ones that we can't.
We need to create a fail safefor you and someday we'll figure
out that other piece.
But until we figure out thatother piece, we at least need 90%
of this done.
Yeah.
(31:50):
So how could we maybe address.
If we just go back to theissue that you say is the most common
on your end, which is justgetting organized, are there ways
that you've seen like, okay,so you, you send people your organizer.
Yep.
Is there any other kind oftidbits of, of suggestions or anything
(32:10):
that you have with gettingorganized to come in and see an attorney?
Well, in all honesty, peoplewho work usually with, with financial
advisors like yourselves,they're often organized.
You know, they've had thoseconversations already with their
planners about what they have.
So that's a help.
Also, especially this time ofyear when we're all starting to tackle
(32:34):
our tax organizers.
I think tax time, you're kindof going through the same data anyway.
Maybe for different purposes,obviously, for estate planning, but,
you know, now's a good time tothink about it.
Yeah, yeah.
Pretty good at taxes, but Iget the tax organizer still from
(32:57):
my CPA and I'm looking at andgoing, there's 30 pages of questions
on there, which is verysimilar to what you're.
Because I've seen your list before.
I've seen other.
Yeah, very similar to the factfinder that they're getting from
your firms.
And if you work with a goodfinancial advisor, especially if
this is what they do, there'sa lot of financial advisors say,
I do estate planning.
It's like, yeah, okay, yousell stuff to people you know, or
(33:21):
recommend it to an attorney.
But if the planner really doesestate planning, they're going to
help you draft up the outlineand communicate with the attorney.
Absolutely.
I will say, you know, I'veworked with plenty of your planners
over at Seed, and you guys dohelp organize all that client information.
(33:44):
And, um, in fact, the lasttime I worked with Jessica Blake,
you know, she just sent meeverything I needed.
I didn't even need my organizer.
She had it all.
All put together.
So it was.
It was fantastic.
We're going to get bumperstickers to say, we work with Jess.
Yeah, yeah.
That's what it should.
(34:04):
Yeah, yeah.
You're paying an advisor to doestate planning.
They should be liaisoning withthe estate planner and making sure
that.
Because they're the ones whoactually understand, like, we understand
what you're looking for.
Somebody who's coming to youfor the first time may not actually
know.
And the other big piece ofthat, too, that, for instance, we
do, is we also provide some ofthe projection material.
(34:28):
So a lot of times people go toan estate attorney and they'll say,
this is what I have right now.
But you kind of do need toknow, okay, you have that.
But are you getting a biginheritance down the road?
Are you spending a lot?
Are you saving a lot?
Like, you might have a milliondollars now, but if we did a projection
30 years out, you could be at$5 million.
You kind of need to know thatas might feel like that.
(34:50):
That empowers you as an attorney.
Yep.
And if you're missing thatinformation, you have to somehow
try to draw that out of the client.
Or maybe you're not.
You're not getting the whole picture.
And maybe you would haverecommended some other things as
well.
Definitely.
Absolutely.
Yep.
Well, I'm gonna.
I'm.
I'm not gonna pick on the.
On.
(35:11):
On the industry today.
Can I ask.
Can I Ask you a question here?
Yeah.
Is it going to pick on the industry?
No, no, no.
So you, so you talk aboutJess, our industry.
I think Travis has done areally masterful job over the years
with his own experiencedealing with clients, teaching downstream.
Right.
Leading new planners on ourteam like this is best practices.
Maybe this was an area wherewe could have been more organized.
(35:31):
So for the next round,everyone's going to do it this way.
And so we've become reallyproficient with planners on this
is the expectation from seed's behalf.
Dealing with professionals.
We want to be organized.
You lead a team, right.
You have attorneys of alldifferent maturity levels and ages
and experience.
What we talk about on the showall the time is I don't think people
really understand the optionsthat are available to them when it
(35:53):
comes to their money and theirfinancial planning.
So they just do whatever theprofessional says.
Have you had any experiencesdealing with other attorneys on this
team approach where maybe anattorney met with a couple or an
individual, they thought theyhad a good idea, but then you reviewed
case notes or met with themand said, did you also know they
could do this?
Like there's got to be valueon the attorney side from the strength
(36:16):
of everybody working together.
And so I think one of Travis'squestions, if you go to a professional
that's a solo practitioner,they kind of do a little bit of everything.
They may be unfortunatelylimited in terms of what they know
are available options.
So they'll give you the willhealth care proxy of attorney, but
they may be missing.
Has there been anything neatthat's come from your years of experience
either professionally or withleading others that's just helped
(36:39):
you teach downstream or likenoticing things in case notes or
in the organizer that maybe ayounger attorney may not realize,
but because of years, years ofexperience, you're like, hey, that's
actually a bigger issue.
We should be talking about that.
Yeah, I, I, I.
One big area comes to mindwith that question and that's understanding
(37:02):
the dynamics of like elder lawtype issues, especially like skilled
nursing home care with theMedicaid system.
In a, in an estate planningmeeting, sometimes you select certain
options, if you will, in yourplanning that set you up nicely to
(37:26):
take care of yourself betterlater on.
So I would say that would bean example, you know, where experience
can, even though you're comingin maybe as a 55 year old couple
and you want to talk about,you know, getting a will in place
(37:48):
or trust, but during thatprocess you can have some of that
added value of knowing you'reMaking certain selections that might
help you with asset protectionlater on, for example.
So I think that is a good example.
We've seen that a lot too,especially with business owners.
(38:11):
Businesses are an interestingthing because you can establish a
business in a way that it kindof operates like its own person.
And you can have an estateattorney that can handle all the
estate stuff.
But baked into the business,into the operating agreements or
however it's structured, oreven standalone buy sell agreements,
(38:35):
you can have things baked intoit that trigger the business to do
different things.
So you can, like, forinstance, you can put in your will,
give me.
Give my business to my spousewhen I die.
But that business could bestructured in a way that prohibits
it from going to your spouse.
And it triggers outside of thewill and outside of the whole probate
process and everything.
(38:56):
The.
The other issue too, thatwe've seen, and this is just an interesting
thing, and I use this examplea lot, but clients sometimes will.
Will come to the attorney andsay, you know, I want to leave money
to charity.
I want to leave $50,000 toUnited Way or something like that.
And we'll put it in, you know,you can put that in the will, leave
them $50,000, and then they goand they change.
(39:17):
All their beneficiaries go totheir spouse and then to their kids
if their spouse isn't there.
Well, that means none of themoney goes through the estate, so
none of it gets to the will.
So none of it actually can do that.
So if there is something thataccidentally sneaks through, like
a 529 account or something,now all of a sudden that may be subject
to the bequest for thecharity, and now you've blown up
your grandkids college fundbecause you don't understand how
(39:38):
it works.
So training with a broaderdepth of knowledge and how some of
these things work, I think canat least point to it and say, hey,
you at least got to have thatchecked out over there, because those
are where the pitfalls reallycome in.
Somebody thinks they've donereally great planning, and maybe
they had a great piece ofplanning done and had a wonderful
attorney.
You know, Kristen set them up perfectly.
(40:01):
But, you know, they kind ofchecked out at the end about, hey,
you got to check this, thisand this box.
Yeah.
And you know, and then theymiss that part.
So, you know, and that'sespecially the small business part.
And we've worked with some ofyour small business attorneys.
Understanding how those workin the estate plan or outside of
the estate plan, I think isreally, really important.
(40:22):
And what you need for that,like, maybe you need a trust for
that, maybe you don't.
Maybe you just need to, youknow, look at who your shareholders
are or your buy sellagreements internally and how you
structure that.
But it's a big deal to get it right.
So I want to save everythingelse for our next episode.
We're going to do two episodeswith you, Kristen.
Next episode.
We'll get into it much quickerbecause mostly because I won't stumble
(40:45):
over myself with the introsbecause we got it down now.
It's good practice, this one.
But what we want to get intonext episode is.
Or our next.
The episode.
Yeah, this is a podcast.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
You know, is it.
But anyway, really talkingabout leading up to the estate administration
(41:07):
so you're alive and youhaven't passed away yet, that kind
of journey.
Because there's a point whereyou can wait too long and now you
can't do anything about it.
And then also after the fact,okay, death has happened and now
what happens?
And I want to kind of crossover into that and share that with
(41:27):
listeners so that theyunderstand why this is so important.
Sure.
And Kirsten, this has been.
And the reason I asked myquestion as we bring this one to
a close is I think a lot ofour listeners, we did a whole episode
on trust.
You know, I think we're nottalking about the person that your
spider sense goes off, you'resitting in front of and you know
this is heading in the wrong direction.
I think there's a lot ofpeople that are trying to do the
(41:47):
right thing and they have goodthings put in place, but they just
don't know why, what the gradeis that they might be missing out
on.
And it's people have a guy,they have a gal, but you want a professional
because you operate a moneybusiness that's going to look at
what you're doing and say,hey, I know we were going down this
path, but there's somethingbetter we could be doing.
I think that's why people goto podcasts and they watch YouTube
videos, is they want thesecrets that people don't know.
(42:10):
And that comes from experienceand teaming.
So I think this is going to bereally exciting.
Kind of get into this nextepisode, kind of how this all works.
So as always, thanks forstopping by.
Ditch the suits.
Travis and I, it's a lot offun having guests on the show.
Kristen, you rocked episode one.
Friends, family, come on back.
Check her out for episodenumber two.
We're have a lot of fun.
Thanks for checking out Ditchthe Suits.
Be sure to write a review ordrop a comment about this episode.
(42:32):
And if you want more likethis, head over to ditchesuits.com
you can send us a message andget in touch.
Let us know how we can helpand be sure to share any topics you'd
be interested in having uscover on the show.
We're here to help you get themost from your money in life.
Thanks for being our guest andchecking out Ditch the Suits.
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