July 9, 2025 • 44 mins
Attorney Cara Tuttle Bell shares strategies for setting effective boundaries at work and beyond, revealing how assertiveness can be developed as a skill rather than seen as a personality trait. Women in their forties often discover their strongest boundary-setting abilities as they become more comfortable with themselves and less tolerant of harmful behaviors.
Visit https://caratuttlebell.com for free resources on boundary setting and assertiveness in various contexts.
• Setting boundaries requires different approaches for different contexts
• Assertiveness differs from aggression—it's about showing up and participating without steamrolling others
• Strategic timing matters—don't wait until after probation periods to clarify roles
• Approach boundary conversations with positive framing to maximize persuasion
• When you do your job well, supervisors often don't see it happening—requiring self-advocacy
• Start with small, low-stakes situations to build your assertiveness muscle
• Lead with your specific ask rather than extensive justification or explanation
• Consider the power dynamics in workplace relationships before choosing your approach
• People who appear fearless are often just strategic—assertiveness gets easier with practice
• Choose what pleases you more often—there's room for women to feel more entitled
Visit caratuttlebell.com for free resources on boundary setting and assertiveness in various contexts.
The opinions expressed in this episode reflect those of Cara Tuttle.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva.
Tonight we're talking aboutboundaries and boundaries in the
workplace.
I think it's very important todiscuss.
I haven't discussed it on theshow yet and I found someone
very suitable for thisconversation.
Her name is Kara Tuttletle andshe is an attorney.
(00:26):
She also has written a fewbooks.
One of them is DrowningIntuitivity.
She's a speaker.
She's also an entrepreneur andshe helps others at the college
level setting boundaries andalso with sexual harassment.
You have quite the resume, soI'm not going to go down the
(00:46):
list of all your accolades, butI appreciate you taking the time
to join me here on Zoom to talkabout boundaries and how they
actually affect us, right?
So you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
know.
Thank you.
I'm excited by all the topicsI've seen that you've covered so
far on your podcast, so I'mreally happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thank you so much.
I think this series this Is 40,has made me realize, the more I
talk to women like yourself whoare in prominent roles, that 40
is that stage of your lifewhere you're like so comfortable
in your skin that you don'tgive two rats ass what anyone
(01:25):
thinks.
And what do you think assomeone who is in that round,
Like I mean, I don't knowexactly how old you are, but I
know you're in the window of 40.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So I mean, I agree I'm in the late forties but I
feel like the forties werebetter than the thirties, were
better than twenties.
You know there's pros and consto each decade but you know me
and my women friends, our age wereally like being this age.
We know who we are.
We probably are more assertivethan we've ever been.
Our tolerance, you know, for BS, harassment, harm, annoyances I
(02:12):
mean you name it seems to be atan all-time low but in a way we
feel, really feel really goodabout right because we feel like
this is really authentic andwe're prioritizing our health
and well-being and time andwants, not just needs, more so
than ever at this phase in life.
So I really, I really like thatabout the 40s yeah, I like that
too.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I mean, I'm in my early 40s, so I'm just at the, I
guess, at the tip of the cliff.
I guess the words at the startof the roller coaster Right, so?
And then it's like the journeyhas begun and you know what I
mean.
So I think, as I talk to youabout this, that even for me,
setting boundaries is reallyhard.
(02:40):
I am a people pleaser.
I don't like confrontationreally hard.
I am a people pleaser, I don'tlike confrontation.
I would rather just let theperson say their half and not
respond, knowing that I mightsay something that I didn't mean
to say, because sometimes Iovershare.
Right, and so, based on your,your own personal experience
(03:02):
with this, let's start from thebeginning, on your journey to
where you are now.
What made you decide to go tolaw school and practice?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Sure.
So I mean, I really thoughtthat I was going to be in a big
city working in a law firm andthat's not the path that this,
you know, has taken.
But early on I like I grew upin a very, very small town.
It's like one stoplight, onegrocery store, like know has
taken.
But early on I like I grew upin a very, very small town, it's
like one stoplight, one grocerystore, like nine churches,
though, you know, in SouthernIndiana, so in Indiana, the
United States, and it's it'srural and and the public school
(03:37):
there is like.
I was in the same buildingkindergarten through, like
senior year of high school, mymom worked at the school.
A lot of the men work either ata local coal mine or they
worked for the railroad, youknow.
So it's very different than mylife now and there are many ways
in which that was safe andprotected because it was small
and like regionally isolated.
(03:58):
But I wanted to get out and Ididn't know a whole lot about
the world because I hadn't seena lot, you know, and so my
parents really wanted us, theyreally prioritized education.
Like my sister, my brother andI, we were expected to get good
grades.
We were expected to go tocollege.
I was a little bit feisty then,but I hadn't really found
myself, you know.
So I didn't have the confidenceeither.
So I had, you know, I think,like girl power vibes in the 90s
(04:23):
really, when I was in thatphase and would kind of argue
and so many people were like youshould go to law school.
And I was really into politics.
I was a political science majorin undergrad, you know, and so
the path was like, yes, I'mgoing to go to law school, I'm
going to make enough money formyself, I'm going to be
self-sufficient.
This is going to give me abackbone, you's really going to
(04:44):
strengthen my skill set.
And then I'm going to grow intothe woman that I want to be.
But I was not born assertive.
I was very well behaved.
I had strict parents.
I mean, part of this too isthat a number of the women in my
family were in unhealthy andabusive relationships and I
didn't want to get stuck in that.
(05:04):
So I don't think at the time Iwas putting that together as a
career, which it's now becomelike.
My main job is sexualharassment and assault
prevention and supporting peoplewho've been targeted or harmed
in that way.
But it makes sense now that I'mlooking back on my life.
But so it was just one step ata time and so it was really
individual focused.
You know, I wanted to makemoney and, like be successful.
(05:29):
I was just thinking about me,you know.
And then then life happens andthings take a turn and so I
didn't end up going into the bigfirm route and going I don't go
to court, I don't representclients in that way.
In my job at Vanderbiltuniversity there's a compliance
aspect where I helped theinstitution comply with.
You know, in the US it's liketitle nine and the Cleary Act
and the Violence Against WomenAct, but really I get to be a
(05:51):
feminist at work who'sadvocating for others, and I
grew into this work that I alsodo.
Part of it was my personalexperience.
But then, you know, youngerwomen were coming to me and
saying like, could you help meprep for this job interview?
Or you were really persuasivein that meeting.
How did you learn to do that?
And I mean, I learned it thehard way, you know, and so it
(06:13):
was really during the pandemicwhere work changed so
fundamentally for us that I hadthe time to sit down and write
the book Right, and it's alittle book down and write the
book right and it's a littlebook and it's really to me, a
quick guide for, like all ofthese conversations that I was
having with mostly younger women, but not all about using
assertiveness strategically andsetting boundaries, that really
(06:35):
leads me to you know where weare today in this conversation.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So when I hear you talk about like how
assertiveness can be taken thewrong way depending on the
context, so I work.
If you're assertive, you can beconsidered a bitch, which is
what I mean.
If you're too assertive orpassive, aggressive, Right?
Or you know there's three sidesto it, Right, Passive,
(07:00):
aggressive, aggressive assertive, and then you know so depending
on what the issue is, right.
So I guess I said a lot in thatstatement there, but where I'm
going with this is when did youfinally realize that I'm
comfortable in my own skin nowand I can speak up for myself?
(07:23):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I think it started really in the middle of law
school when I got to law school,right.
So I moved from that tiny ruraltown to Nashville, Tennessee.
I actually went to Vanderbiltfor law school.
I do work at Vanderbilt now.
There were some travel anddifferent jobs in between there,
but I was very intimidated.
I was intimidated by myclassmates.
I was intimidated by thedifference in like social class.
(07:47):
You know, I just did not comefrom.
You know the money and thewealth that some of my
classmates did.
Now some of them did not, right.
So it was a mix of us in termsof race and identity and
international student status andsocial class, and there's a lot
of ways in which I'm veryprivileged and very comfortable
in certain spaces.
(08:08):
But I felt out of place andunprepared really for the first
time and unprepared relative tothe other people in the class,
and so I was really strugglingwith my confidence there and
that was probably a low pointthe first year and a half of it.
But then I was looking fortools, right.
(08:28):
So there were some early booksand I do still recommend them,
although this is now 20, someyears ago.
So some of the examples aregoing to cause you to cringe,
but there's still some good, youknow, ideas in these.
Like nice girls don't get thecorner office.
That was one.
Women don't ask is another one,which is on gender and the
negotiation divide.
So at first I was thinkingabout this in terms of, like
(08:51):
interviewing for my career,negotiating my salary, being
really persuasive when I neededto speak.
Law school helped, but lawschool doesn't exactly teach you
all of that, you know.
I mean, it will teach you tomake an argument and cite your
sources and that's really useful, Right.
So it it helped me figure outhow to prepare and it really
(09:13):
helps me.
The real world, yeah, Right,yes, yeah, and people are
intimidated, just if they.
I mean, I know it's 2025, butpeople still think woman lawyer,
you know, like, oh, she's awoman lawyer, Right?
So they're intimidated before Icome in the room, which helps
me be persuasive once I'm in theroom.
Now I think many times I try tobe pleasant and nice and
(09:34):
friendly and shouldn't be thatintimidated, but I do now
because I've studied it.
But also, you know, practice, ithave the skills to step up and
hold firm, negotiate fairly,assert myself and I will say I
mean aggressive behavior is nothighly recommended, it's very
Western, it's very like Americancapitalist climb.
(09:55):
You know, dog eat dog.
But in that environment youmight want to reserve the right
to engage that behaviorsparingly.
We can talk more about this,but it's not never.
But you want to be assertive inthe.
I'm showing up, I'mparticipating, these are my
needs and wants.
I have this right to this space.
This person has this right totheir needs and wants and you
(10:16):
know we try to get to a fairoutcome.
We're not steamrolling someone,we're not being aggressive, but
because our workplaces can beso unhealthy and sometimes toxic
and unfair, I want you toreserve that right to match bad
behavior with bad behavior whenit's going to get you the
outcome that you want.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Right, I guess I won't say any names, but I guess
I'll give you an example of howI've handled things.
When I wanted to just screambecause communication, like you
said, being in a chaotic workenvironment, working at a head
office at a construction well,the main head office for a
(10:55):
construction company that was myfirst time working in that kind
of environment and this is atotally different round, meaning
that I was hired to be adminand reception.
But when I, when they saw mywork ethic, like certain people
started to take advantage ofthat.
But the where I'm going withthe boundary setting is that
(11:15):
when I had a meeting with mymanager, sometimes I would just
bite my tongue and just be like,ok, I'm going for a break right
now, so I don't say anythingthat I don't want to say because
of the respect factor one.
But I'm new, right, and so Ifind what's challenging is being
assertive in the workplace whenyou just started the job and
(11:39):
you're you just pass yourprobation period and how to do
that, because it's one thingwhen your manager's like, oh,
you could talk to me aboutanything and I'm like but can I
really Cause?
Sometimes when you come intowork you have that look on your
face and the whole office isquiet Cause they know that she's
in a mood today or today's nota good day to talk to her about
(12:01):
anything.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So yeah, so that's really thought I mean.
So your example I mean I'm notcoaching you, but if I were,
there's so many good things,there are so many good things,
right, and just the way youdescribed that example, you are
being thoughtful, you are beingperspective.
You are aware of hierarchywhich, even when I think I was
shaking my head because the niceboss, the friendly boss, the
(12:22):
one who comes in, who's like no,you can talk to me about
anything they're trying todiminish the power differential,
which can be great, right, somepeople like hierarchy just
because they're obnoxious andthey think their title makes
them more than what they are,and that can be a really
unhealthy environment to work in.
There's a whole lot ofmediocrity in that level.
You know where it's like title,but without performance.
(12:43):
I don't wish that on you either, but it is really good to keep
in mind that you are at work andthis person is your supervisor
or your boss, kind of no matterwhat they say, because they can
turn that back on whenever theywant.
And the power differentials areimportant to think about before
you go into those conversationsto help you prepare, because
(13:11):
we're not going to be aggressivestrategically with someone who
outranks you unless you need tobe right, like the aggressive
behavior in the workplace forboundary setting, I think, is a
matter of safety and respect,right and like.
If you're experiencingharassment or discrimination,
you're right, which isdefensible in the law.
Actually, if you'reexperiencing harassment or
discrimination, you're right,which is defensible in the law.
Actually, if we're going thatfar Now most people don't want
it to go that far.
That's not good.
You know that's not helping uson a daily basis, but you know
(13:32):
you have rights in the workplaceand you have the right to
boundaries when people areharassing or discriminating
against you or you know or youfeel unsafe.
But most of the time we're inthis wiggle room where you do
need to be mindful of thoserelationships and you need to
think about the ongoingrelationship.
And when you're a new employee,you're being evaluated.
(13:53):
You don't have as much room toassert yourself as you do when
you're a known quantity.
I have a lot of space.
I've been at the same workplacefor 12 years now.
They know me.
That gives me more grace if I'mhaving a bad day to be like,
ooh, something must really bewrong.
I mean, my work is serious, sothat buys me some room and space
(14:14):
too.
I've got relevant degrees, sothat expertise gives me some
room to push or not.
But these things your identityis always in flux, and so you
need to think about that in themeeting or the conversation with
the person across the table,and that's going to help you
determine when it's a greatstrategy to be passive or a
(14:36):
better or a safer strategy to bepassive aggressive Although we
do have to come back to that,because I really don't recommend
that one that one like that'soften feels like the comfortable
choice but that almost nevergets us to where we want to go.
But I reserve your right tochoose between passivity and
passive aggressive when showingup authentically and assertively
or aggressively is going tobackfire, right?
(14:57):
We don't want you to lose yourjob that you want.
We don't want you to not get apromotion that we want.
We don't want you to have atense, conflict-ridden,
problematic relationship withthe supervisor, right?
So we're going to useassertiveness strategically for
the appropriate boundary setting.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Okay.
So I guess, to help thesituation, for you to coach me
so that you know who.
If you are listening and you'rein a work environment that you
feel like you have to be moreassertive now to express
yourself or get that promotionthat you're looking for, then
this is a different situationaltogether, because I no longer
(15:36):
work for this company.
How things were done?
I came in with an open mind andan eager like whenever you start
a new job, you're eager to do alot of things and because the
way they operate is more oldschool, like loss, it's like
they haven't gone digital yetand so I came in and I helped
(15:58):
organize like the filing andthat kind of you know, the
filing the paperwork and I wasbeing trained by the accounts
payable and not realizing thatthe person who is training me
doesn't have the same authorityas my manager.
So she's acting as if she'shigher up when she's not, but
she's been with the companylonger.
(16:19):
So what happened in the contextof everything is that she saw
my work ethic and how much Icould do and then added to that
and my manager did not know thatall this was happening under
her nose.
And it's like the same behavioris happening again, because I'm
(16:40):
the second person they hired todo this job and somehow it's
happening again.
So it's kind of like theydidn't hire the person that they
needed an uh, an accountingassistant or an assistant to the
accounts payable, but theyhired a receptionist and an
admin.
So it's it's more or less thatissue too, but she was training
(17:01):
me to be her assistant, which isnot what they hired me for,
sure.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
And she would love for you to be her assistant,
right, because you're there andyou're useful and she holds a
type of influence that doesn'talign with you know the hiring
structure or title.
But she does hold influence inthe company, right, so it's good
that you're like aware of that.
But when it becomes too much orthere's a conflict, right, so
it's good that you're, like,aware of that, but when it
becomes too much or there's aconflict, right, you know, my
(17:28):
advice would be that you do needto communicate this to your
actual supervisor, right,because they just need to know
Now they might be fine with it.
Right, it depends on the person.
It depends on the needs of theday, it depends on, like, the
relationship they have with thatperson, because they might be
really frustrated.
They might be like she alwaysdoes this.
This is so frustrating and youdon't want to be in the middle
(17:49):
of that and that's not fair toyou and your role.
But if you're new and you'retrying to prove yourself, you
just take things on, which isadmirable.
But there's a difference betweenproving yourself in the
workplace and taking on too muchinitiative, right, I actually
tell any of my new hires thatI'm like I hired you because you
(18:10):
know you were the strongestcandidate and you're the right
person for the job.
You do not have to prove thatto me in the short term.
I actually don't need a wholelot of initiative from you in
the short term, because I needyou to learn the job the way we
do it.
I need to see consistency fromyou.
I need to see you know aninterest in learning and asking
(18:31):
questions.
I don't need you to take on allof these things and not
communicate that to me, right?
Or I do have, and then otherpeople on the team it's so
similar.
I have some other people on theteam who've been there a few
years, so I tried to guardagainst any new person being
pulled under their wing too much, because they're going to shape
(18:52):
them for their own personal use, which may not be what we hire
them to do, right?
So I mean, a lot of this isexpecting good boundary setting
and relationship building fromour bosses, which we may not get
.
So sometimes we have to manageup right now.
Your boss should haveanticipated this from that
person, and there may not beenough resources in terms of
(19:15):
like people doing the jobs.
But where that's not happening,I do say you should communicate
that which requires you to likehey, do you have a minute?
You know, knock on the door, um, or ask for a meeting.
What people have to reallyreally remember is you want to
do that at a time and a spacethat's good for them, not what's
good for you.
If we're maximizing persuasion,you might just want to get it
(19:37):
over with, right, but morning iswhere people feel like I have
so much to do.
I have to tackle the day thatyou are adding something else to
their list.
So when really think about theother person, when you are
communicating how much you'redoing, what you're worried about
, whatever you're asking for, ifit's a, if it's a raise, if
(19:59):
it's a promotion, if it's timeoff, if it's like you know,
additional responsibility, causeyou want to learn another area,
time it and what's best forthem.
This strategy is actuallycalled empathy mapping and there
are free tools on the internet.
Just it's empathy mapping.
You might find a lot of thingsthat are about selling a product
, but that's okay, right?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So we're not selling this, though, because in a
position that I'm in, we'regoing to get a new manager, so
it's kind of like building therapport again from the beginning
, right?
So I think when you start a newjob, it's always nerve-wracking
.
Diva tonight, glamour for yourears.
This is 40, a female perspectivewhat you said initially is
(20:40):
great, because the conversationhappened a little too late, when
the damage has had already beendone, and so when I had the
meeting, that's when it was likelisting all my job and my roles
and responsibilities from whenI started to six months in
overachiever here, where itdoubled in terms of feeling
(21:04):
defensive, you know, at thattime, and you're feeling
stressed, Right, and so that'swhere passivity feels safe on a
day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I'll just do this, I I'll just do this, I'll make it
work.
I have time.
This could be interesting.
I want to help her too, butwe're not articulating.
You, you haven't guarded yourboundaries, right, about your
role and your time, becauseyou're trying to be all things
to all people, which a lot of usare, you know, and we want to
be helpful people and we want tocontribute at work.
You know, I mean, I don't everhave issues with people who
(21:36):
don't want to do enough.
I have a lot of issues withwomen who are trying to do too
much, right, and so it's aboutwalking that back a bit so that
you can be more effective, youcan be more influential and you
can take care of yourself whileshowing up in these other spaces
, and so that's the importanceof boundary setting.
It's it is.
You can't pour from an emptycup.
(21:57):
You know.
These things are true, some ofthese phrases that have been
around for the older, I get youknow.
I'm like, oh, they're all true,they really are.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
No, they are.
And so I guess, when you'restarting a new position and
you've been there for a fewmonths in terms of like your
once you pass your probationperiod is that when you think
it's good to start laying theboundaries.
Or are we starting from youknow, like what is in your
(22:28):
advice, because you've been inthe industry a while now we're
what is the best time?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I mean, you obviously have to gauge how things are
going, but it's really hard ifyou're a timid person and you
don't always set boundaries itis very hard and you're going to
start small because we're goingto build assertiveness as a
skill and then, like, onceyou've developed assertiveness,
you're going to be good atboundary setting.
You can't do one without theother.
It's the same for any type ofactivism or bystander
(22:55):
intervention.
It's like we can't jump to likesuperhero mode.
You've got to build this andyou've got to maintain it like a
, like a muscle or like a skill.
So you do start small.
You are going to wait, it'sokay.
I don't want you to jump oneverything immediately, it's
(23:21):
okay.
I don't want you to jump oneverything immediately.
And sometimes, with Gen Z andyou know, whatever you call the
younger generation, they feelmore entitled to to talk to you,
you know, and your questionsare valid.
But I need them to prepare moreand not knock on the door and
interrupt.
Right, and it may just, andthey just want to grab me while
they're seeing me and I'm gladthey feel like we have that open
door.
I mean, there are many goodthings about this, but early on,
(23:44):
when you're hired, when you'rethe junior employee, you are not
the top priority of thesupervisor's day.
That's just how work works.
Okay, it's not about you as aperson.
You have all this value as aperson, but you do actually want
to learn that like so.
You want to be new, you want toobserve, you want to want to
figure things out, including theinternal office politics, like
(24:06):
what is the relationship betweenyour supervisor on paper and
then this woman who's you knowknow, teaching you other things,
which honestly, could be agreat opportunity.
You could come in as anadministrative assistant, as an
executive assistant, front door.
You could come in and thenrealize, oh, there's a need over
there or oh, I really work wellwith this person.
We just vibe, you know, like wehave open lines of
(24:29):
communication and when she hasan opening in six months, you
apply for that.
That can be great.
But if it's not what I, that'swhere I would be like I don't
want you sitting on oh, I'mbeing pulled in this direction
and it doesn't feel right andnot talking to the person over
here.
So you would want to maybe notwait until you're off probation
(24:50):
to discuss it, because theprobationary period or the, you
know, the internship period, theapprenticeship period you're
going to have a bit of anevaluation formal or not at the
end of that by the person,because your status changes.
So you would have wanted toclarify or defend yourself
before that meeting.
(25:11):
So a check-in at the end ofmonth one is totally appropriate
.
You know it's like, and I wouldsay, approach that with
positivity and pleasantness.
Not because I need women to bepleasant, I do not but
strategically you're going to bepleasant, strategically right,
because data and being preparedfor a meeting, that's all
important, but the mostpersuasive factor is like
(25:33):
positivity.
I have to talk to my science,engineering and medicine people.
They want to like, bring thewhole like and I want to be like
.
I'm glad you are prepared, butalmost always your supervisor,
the boss, decision maker,doesn't need all that.
If I need it, I'll ask for it.
But if you're like here's why,why, why, why, why, why, why,
(25:53):
why.
I'm like get to the point.
I'd much rather someone leadwith the ask and then have the
rationale if I need it.
It's about, like, really beingefficient, pleasant.
What's the value add you'regiving to that person?
So I would say that person belike hey, you know I love
working here.
Again, thank you for theopportunity.
Um, I feel like I'm learning alot, you know I I do feel like
(26:15):
I'm being pulled in in differentdirections.
I just want to make sure youknow that that's how this job is
supposed to be.
Or, if there's a need overthere, you know that I didn't
think this was the job I hiredto do.
I'm not complaining about that.
I just want to make sure I'mmeeting your expectations and
you may be very concerned aboutthat.
You may be like I do not wantto work for that woman anymore.
But, like, again, let's packageit in a way that is keeping you
(26:39):
seeming really engaged andprofessional, that's maximizing
persuasion, so that you get theoutcome that you want.
It may just be clarity, it mayjust be the check-in, it may be
moving further towards the jobyou applied for and away from
the person who sees you as anopportunity, or it could be.
I mean, I could easily be likeif you are helping her and
(26:59):
that's fun for you.
Thank you, we needed more helpin that area and I just don't
have a position right now right,because other people above me
make those hiring decisionsabout when I can hire or not but
we can shuffle the work aroundin the workplace.
That might be ideal foreveryone, but you're not going
to know till you check in.
So you just don't want to sitin passivity.
You just don't want to sit notsure because also that's
(27:22):
stressful for you the whole timewhere you're like I think it's
this, I hope I'm doing a goodjob.
You know, eventually, just goget those answers.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I think the one thing that Ihave a problem with is like
having that meeting at the onemonth point I think I was
waiting for after three monthsto have the meeting and it I was
like it wasn't happeningbecause always busy, right, like
you said, and you don't want toget them at the wrong time, and
like obviously, eventually wehad the meeting, not because I
(27:50):
asked, but because she wasobserving what was happening in
her department and she was likethis is not happening again.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Well, you don't want her to come to you and make it
like you did something wrong,right, because you're new,
actually Like you're new, andit's really the other person who
was pulling you into the otherwork.
So you look great, you lookprofessional.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, I look like I was.
I was, I was doing a lot ofwork and I didn't realize that
until I was in the meeting,going over the list of my roles
and responsibilities and beinglike no wonder, I'm burnt out,
right.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Right, yeah, yeah.
So we just want to get ahead ofthat.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
It's not every day.
You can't become like theydon't want to tend to you every
day.
No, they don't.
I don't want to learn aboutsomething that I could have
addressed three months agoeither.
Right?
So everything's a balancing act.
You do want to observe andlearn my team.
They have learned me and theyshould learn me right that, like
I like quiet time in themorning, I do a lot of work in
(28:55):
the morning, then I usually havean afternoon lull where I will
come out and get a snack andsometimes and I try to sit in
either our conference room, youknow, our opening lobby area and
be more personable that's agreat time to ask me for
something, cause I'm like primedto say yes, you know, I'm like
sure that'd be great If theywant that.
That's a great time to ask mesomething now, casually and the
(29:17):
small ask you if I'm taking abreak, and it's my first break
of the day.
You don't want to take thatover.
You know.
You really want to read thescene, because sometimes, when
I'm stressed and busy, I come inand to my wonderful
administrative assistant whodoes so much gatekeeping for me,
I say don't let them swarm me,you know, unless the building's
(29:39):
on fire.
I needed to wait a few hours,you know, but I set my own
boundaries.
Now.
I've been practicing this along time.
She helps me gatekeep and Icommunicate that to them, and
also that's better for thembecause they don't know that
right, the people who workupstairs didn't see me come in,
they don't know what kind ofmood I'm in, but it helps them
not get a frustrated answer or astressed answer from me,
(30:02):
because I've just articulatedthat at the get go and then I'll
come out and then I'll be likesorry, I really needed to focus
on that thing.
Does anyone need anything?
Right, that's the moment forthem to, and then they're still
flexible.
It's like sure, if you've got amoment.
But I got to tell you I want tosay yes to the things that are
so efficiently given to me.
Right, lead with the ask, haveyour rationale ready, but don't
(30:25):
spend so much time telling me.
Don't make me do the work offiguring out what you're
actually asking for.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, more likely to get the yes, yeah, yeah, no, I
think it's.
It's important to be able toarticulate yourself and ask,
because I think that's thecommunication barrier too.
When you're not able tocommunicate what you need or
maybe not, it's not coming outthe right way.
You know what I mean whenyou're, when you're in the hot
seat.
Because you feel like you're inthe hot seat, it's just a
meeting with you and yourmanager, right, and there's no
one else there.
It's just like, and then she'sgot her notebook and and so
(31:01):
you're just, you know, like withany she knew she was having the
meeting and she knew she wasgoing to have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
So this is not fair, right?
Yeah, I think I realized this.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I think I knew I was having the meeting too, so, okay
, I lucked out that between thetime that we both, that my
colleague had told me like prior, she's like make sure you write
down every single thing you do,because that's good they don't
forget in the moment.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, and they don't know.
They really don't.
I mean that's such a key pointwhen you do your job well, I
don't have to see it, you knowit.
I mean that's such a key pointwhen you do your job well, I
don't have to see it, you know,it's just getting done.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That's the dream, you know.
Oh yeah, I was the dream.
I was the dream in thebeginning.
Oh, she's like oh my God,you're totally different.
And I take notes and like allthese things Right, and so, yes,
this is common.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah.
So this is really common amongwomen is we think we'll do a
good job and they will recognizeit.
But you got to remember howbusy and self-absorbed most
people are, right, and so it'slike if that problem is not on
my desk, I don't have to see it.
I don't even know necessarilywho did it.
I do at my workplace, come backand be like you know I'll even
(32:10):
be like who cleaned theconference room or who wiped the
table down.
You know it's like it's not oneperson's job, it's all our job
actually, you know.
So I try to ask later and thenrecognize and thank someone, but
most of the time I am notseeing it as it's getting done.
So if you are waiting for yourgold star to be given by someone
, you have to like we're not inschool anymore.
You know it's not their job tograde your paper, it's work
(32:34):
which is different, and so youdo sometimes have to toot your
own horn or and you don't haveto brag about it, but you can be
like at the appropriate time.
You know I was working on this,I was working on this, I was
working on this, and you caneven flip it.
So it sounds like you're askingfor feedback from them when
you're actually making sure thatthey know everything that you
did.
But you can be like did Ihandle that well?
(32:55):
Is there anything that youwould recommend I do differently
?
There'll be plenty of timeswe'll be like I didn't even know
you were handling that, butthank you Right.
So framing all of theseconversations is key.
It involves prep work, which wedon't always have time for is
key.
It involves prep work, which wedon't always have time for, but
(33:16):
when we practice assertivenesswhich I think we've talked about
but not really gotten to howyou start is going to make you
better prepared for theimpromptu conversation.
It's going to make you betterprepared for the formal
scheduled conversation.
What I saw was a lot of womentrying to come to me the day
before they needed to negotiatetheir salary and listen, I'll
help you.
You need a script.
Reach out to me, I'll send yousome language.
(33:37):
But that's never going to be aseffective as we hope, because
we're cramming the night beforeand you might get the right
words out of your mouth, butthen I need you to not undermine
your position or to get off thephone or to get out of the
meeting, and that's what'sreally hard for people because
they're like okay, here's how Imake the ask, here are the words
(34:02):
.
I can say the words, but thereare so many other things going
on.
But I was just thinking like,oh, this is never going to work
if we just do this once everythree to five years or just once
a year even.
You know, we like you to reallybe assertive and engaged and
propelling your career forwardor your relationship forward or
whatever it is we're working on.
You really have to show up andassert yourself on a daily basis
.
That starts with you have tofigure out where you are right.
(34:25):
You have to do some sort ofassessment.
There are some free onlinetools.
There's some worksheets in mybook, you know, but you can
really start today just byfiguring out some simple things.
So, if you are, I'm always on acollege campus, so those are my
examples come from.
So I'm like, if you're walkingacross campus and some of the
sidewalks are narrow, are youalways the person who moves or
(34:48):
not?
Because that's going to tellyou something, and sometimes
that's polite, and sometimes wewant to give the other people
more room because that is theright thing to do, but if, are
you always inconveniencingyourself for others.
If you're on a plane, are you aperson who claims the armrest,
or do you never get an armrestright?
Are you always folding yourselfin to take up less space and
(35:09):
letting the random humans youdon't know have one or both arm
rests?
That's going to tell yousomething about who you are and
how you engage right are.
Now, you know I'm a lawyer.
We're terrible at this.
We interrupt people all of thetime.
It's kind of the nature of theprofession and we should work on
that.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
But are you the person.
Sometimes, when you do that,that is when you get your point
across and that's the money,that's the moneymaker, that's
like that's the moneymaker,that's your Harvey Specter
moments.
You know I'm pretty, I hope youknow.
Well, a lot of people know whoHarvey Specter is, from Suits,
right, and so I think he is asan actor.
(35:49):
He is the epitome of what itmeans to be in a courtroom and
command a room, or even in aconference room.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yes, even in the conference room.
Yeah, you can do that.
You can like enjoy your shows.
And I have other workshops orworksheets.
I get out in a workshop and youknow I can put for your
listeners.
I'm happy to put some of theseup for free on my website.
But one of them is you know, forthe introvert, like this feels
very hard, right?
I love the Enneagram, you know,for different numbers.
(36:21):
There's Myers-Briggs, there'sall these personality tests.
I highly recommend those.
Start with those.
That'll help you learn aboutyourself.
But then you're going to have totake the knowledge or the
assessment out of your head andput it into practice.
You are.
You're going to have to ask forsomething.
You're going to have to speakup in a meeting.
So pick the low stakes thingfirst, so it feels safe.
(36:42):
All right, just try to talkonce every meeting.
That's your practice.
So then, when you're ready, youfeel you do a better job for
the tough thing.
Some people think I'm fearless.
I am not fearless.
I'm not.
It's strategic and I'mexhausted at the end of the day
and sometimes I just like allface down and, you know, in my
(37:02):
dress and heels at the end ofthe day and I'm like, oh, but I
did the best I could.
So I can at least be satisfiedat the end of the day that I
tried Right.
That I tried right it doesn'tmean it's easy.
It does get easier.
Sometimes I need to dial itback now.
I've been doing it too long.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, youdo not need to be this assertive
when you are deciding whatwe're eating for dinner outside
of the workplace.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Dial it back here, you know so whereas I'm staring
at the menu still, and they'relike looking at me oh, ma'am,
miss, have you figured out?
Like I'm just like give me aminute, I still need a minute.
Or just like walk back and belike do I want the Angus or do
that's me?
I would do I want the Angus ordo I want the cheapest meal on
the menu?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
This is a balancing act, but I would, even in the
restaurant I would be like Ithink there's so much space for
women and especially like women,choose what pleases you, get
what pleases you.
If your budget is theoverriding concern, you don't
want to be stressed about thatlater, so choose the cheaper
meal.
But if you don't know, likesometimes, just choose what
pleases you, feed that for awhile and then that's actually
(38:02):
going to make you more assertive.
Right, I want you to feelentitled.
Entitled is a problem when it'spaired with privilege.
Right, and then when we'retrampling people's rights.
But there's so much room forwomen to feel more entitled.
Right, our rights are beingtrampled.
Sometimes we do not feel safe.
Sometimes our work is beingoverlooked in the workplace.
I could handle a whole lot moreof entitlement, so that we are
(38:24):
setting boundaries that outlineour rights.
It is not bad for you to choosethe pleasurable item on the menu
.
Choose what you want.
You know it's not what we need.
There's a lot we don't need,you know.
I mean, like, in certainconstraints we need to focus on
needs.
But if women had more, I meanwe're going in a different
direction here, like into thepleasure conversation.
(38:46):
It lessen work.
But I want you to have a goodtime at work, I want you to feel
fulfilled at work, I want youtreated fairly at work.
But passive behavior andpassive aggressive behavior is
not going to get you there,because other people are focused
on themselves, are showing upfor themselves.
The guy on TV show, that's amodel to watch, like think of
(39:09):
your three people.
You know, and I mean I'm older,so I loved Claire Huxtable on
the Cosby Show.
She was a role model, you know,and I mean I thought I was
never going to grow into that,but I was like, oh man, I would
love to handle a situation, youknow, like Felicia Rashad, like
Claire Huxtable.
You know, and I like I thinkmaybe I'm approaching it now.
You know, at this age and thisstage of my career.
(39:31):
But oh my gosh, I was nothinglike that before you know.
I think I was like quiet kindof angsty person Cause I was.
I didn't feel like people wereincluding me or hearing me and
that I wasn't getting what Iwanted.
You gotta be clear, you know,you gotta find it.
But then I'll tell you so onceyou've tried, once you've put
yourself out there, once you'veshown up in the meeting and you
(39:52):
engage and you say I think weshould do this because and you
get your win, it's so satisfyingand it keeps you going and you
learn that you survived thetough meeting and you survived
the tough conversation we do.
We've survived them all so far.
You know we have.
It might be.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Yes, right, yeah, it takes a while, but for sure
you're stronger than you think.
I think.
I think that, yes, right, yes,yeah, that is a lot, and I think
it's one of those things whereit's like you said, you have to
start small and then recognizingyour wins and like just that
positive self-talk.
(40:29):
I think a lot of us have towork on that too, that we can do
this and then do it so, likewhen you're coaching.
I think it's important to saythat we will have another
conversation about boundaries indifferent contexts.
When it comes to relationshipslike with your partner, someone
you're dating, friends andfamily partner, someone you're
(40:54):
dating yes, friends and familylike there's so many things
where we need to set ourboundaries, because I will
allude to this that I'm learningnow that with one of my
siblings, I have to setboundaries because it's taking a
toll, like in certain situation, it's taking a toll, it does,
yeah, and so it is.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I think it's where we started.
I think we're back to where westarted, but you're stronger
than you think, and that's whywomen in their 40s, we have
learned it.
You know, there's always moreto learn, we can be better, but
we we've learned that we'restronger than we're thinking, so
we are so well poised to setthe best boundaries we ever have
in our life.
Now's the time.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, oh, yes, because I think, like you said,
like now we're in that era wherewe've been through different
scenarios and learn from thoseexperiences, where we're like I
don't want that to happen again.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
So it's so nice to meet you andhave you on the show.
(41:53):
Cara Tuttle Bell, right, do youlike?
Do you like the whole whenpeople say your full name?
Speaker 2 (41:59):
or well, I'm in the process.
I mean, this is women on lifeface.
So I got divorced a few yearsago.
I've dropped the bell.
It's still on all the books andthings, so you know, yeah, yeah
, I'm not offended, but I'm.
I'm going back to Cara Tuttle,which, yes, practice, um, but
you can find me online atcaratuttlebellcom.
Right, so I'm not offended, butI'm going back to Caratotal,
which is in practice, but youcan find me online at
caratotalbellcom.
So I'm really just in the midstof it as we speak, but I will.
(42:20):
There's like a chapter in mybook for each of the things we
talked about Work, you know,romantic and sexual
relationships, family.
There's worksheets in there,but I'll put some free tools on
my website for your listeners,and so you can find me at
caracatabellecom.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
You know, as we were, just discussing and that's
where those will be yes, and sothe book is Drowning in Timidity
.
Yeah, like I write this book.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Women, politeness, I know I was like yeah, I've said
it a million times, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
I mean it takes a scholar like yourself to figure
out the way.
Like I mean the title of yourbook, the title of anything
really like.
Even me with diva tonight, Icould tell you I've had a few
opinions on this title from like.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I thought it was great, I thought it was fun.
I was like this will be a funconversation, I want to be there
.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yes, of course.
No, it has been fun and I feellike you did coach me and I I
think like if I had to do itagain, I would tread lightly
because I think I came in strongand that's love.
Yeah, but we want to bestrategic, yeah, definitely.
So I'm Carlene and this is DivaTonight with Cara
(43:35):
Tuttle-Bellcom.
If you want to go on herwebsite, she's going to include
some great resources for you andme.
We need all the help we can getin this life, especially when
it comes to setting boundaries.
So thank you so much and I knowyou'll be back, is that right?
You'll be back on.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Thank you, I'd be very happy to be back.
I feel like we could talk forhours, so we will Over time, for
sure.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat Diva underscore tonight.
Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva.
Tonight we're talking aboutboundaries and boundaries in the
workplace.
I think it's very important todiscuss.
I haven't discussed it on theshow yet and I found someone
very suitable for thisconversation.
Her name is Kara Tuttletle andshe is an attorney.
(00:26):
She also has written a fewbooks.
One of them is DrowningIntuitivity.
She's a speaker.
She's also an entrepreneur andshe helps others at the college
level setting boundaries andalso with sexual harassment.
You have quite the resume, soI'm not going to go down the
(00:46):
list of all your accolades, butI appreciate you taking the time
to join me here on Zoom to talkabout boundaries and how they
actually affect us, right?
So you?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
know.
Thank you.
I'm excited by all the topicsI've seen that you've covered so
far on your podcast, so I'mreally happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Thank you so much.
I think this series this Is 40,has made me realize, the more I
talk to women like yourself whoare in prominent roles, that 40
is that stage of your lifewhere you're like so comfortable
in your skin that you don'tgive two rats ass what anyone
(01:25):
thinks.
And what do you think assomeone who is in that round,
Like I mean, I don't knowexactly how old you are, but I
know you're in the window of 40.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So I mean, I agree I'm in the late forties but I
feel like the forties werebetter than the thirties, were
better than twenties.
You know there's pros and consto each decade but you know me
and my women friends, our age wereally like being this age.
We know who we are.
We probably are more assertivethan we've ever been.
Our tolerance, you know, for BS, harassment, harm, annoyances I
(02:12):
mean you name it seems to be atan all-time low but in a way we
feel, really feel really goodabout right because we feel like
this is really authentic andwe're prioritizing our health
and well-being and time andwants, not just needs, more so
than ever at this phase in life.
So I really, I really like thatabout the 40s yeah, I like that
too.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I mean, I'm in my early 40s, so I'm just at the, I
guess, at the tip of the cliff.
I guess the words at the startof the roller coaster Right, so?
And then it's like the journeyhas begun and you know what I
mean.
So I think, as I talk to youabout this, that even for me,
setting boundaries is reallyhard.
(02:40):
I am a people pleaser.
I don't like confrontationreally hard.
I am a people pleaser, I don'tlike confrontation.
I would rather just let theperson say their half and not
respond, knowing that I mightsay something that I didn't mean
to say, because sometimes Iovershare.
Right, and so, based on your,your own personal experience
(03:02):
with this, let's start from thebeginning, on your journey to
where you are now.
What made you decide to go tolaw school and practice?
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Sure.
So I mean, I really thoughtthat I was going to be in a big
city working in a law firm andthat's not the path that this,
you know, has taken.
But early on I like I grew upin a very, very small town.
It's like one stoplight, onegrocery store, like know has
taken.
But early on I like I grew upin a very, very small town, it's
like one stoplight, one grocerystore, like nine churches,
though, you know, in SouthernIndiana, so in Indiana, the
United States, and it's it'srural and and the public school
(03:37):
there is like.
I was in the same buildingkindergarten through, like
senior year of high school, mymom worked at the school.
A lot of the men work either ata local coal mine or they
worked for the railroad, youknow.
So it's very different than mylife now and there are many ways
in which that was safe andprotected because it was small
and like regionally isolated.
(03:58):
But I wanted to get out and Ididn't know a whole lot about
the world because I hadn't seena lot, you know, and so my
parents really wanted us, theyreally prioritized education.
Like my sister, my brother andI, we were expected to get good
grades.
We were expected to go tocollege.
I was a little bit feisty then,but I hadn't really found
myself, you know.
So I didn't have the confidenceeither.
So I had, you know, I think,like girl power vibes in the 90s
(04:23):
really, when I was in thatphase and would kind of argue
and so many people were like youshould go to law school.
And I was really into politics.
I was a political science majorin undergrad, you know, and so
the path was like, yes, I'mgoing to go to law school, I'm
going to make enough money formyself, I'm going to be
self-sufficient.
This is going to give me abackbone, you's really going to
(04:44):
strengthen my skill set.
And then I'm going to grow intothe woman that I want to be.
But I was not born assertive.
I was very well behaved.
I had strict parents.
I mean, part of this too isthat a number of the women in my
family were in unhealthy andabusive relationships and I
didn't want to get stuck in that.
(05:04):
So I don't think at the time Iwas putting that together as a
career, which it's now becomelike.
My main job is sexualharassment and assault
prevention and supporting peoplewho've been targeted or harmed
in that way.
But it makes sense now that I'mlooking back on my life.
But so it was just one step ata time and so it was really
individual focused.
You know, I wanted to makemoney and, like be successful.
(05:29):
I was just thinking about me,you know.
And then then life happens andthings take a turn and so I
didn't end up going into the bigfirm route and going I don't go
to court, I don't representclients in that way.
In my job at Vanderbiltuniversity there's a compliance
aspect where I helped theinstitution comply with.
You know, in the US it's liketitle nine and the Cleary Act
and the Violence Against WomenAct, but really I get to be a
(05:51):
feminist at work who'sadvocating for others, and I
grew into this work that I alsodo.
Part of it was my personalexperience.
But then, you know, youngerwomen were coming to me and
saying like, could you help meprep for this job interview?
Or you were really persuasivein that meeting.
How did you learn to do that?
And I mean, I learned it thehard way, you know, and so it
(06:13):
was really during the pandemicwhere work changed so
fundamentally for us that I hadthe time to sit down and write
the book Right, and it's alittle book down and write the
book right and it's a littlebook and it's really to me, a
quick guide for, like all ofthese conversations that I was
having with mostly younger women, but not all about using
assertiveness strategically andsetting boundaries, that really
(06:35):
leads me to you know where weare today in this conversation.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So when I hear you talk about like how
assertiveness can be taken thewrong way depending on the
context, so I work.
If you're assertive, you can beconsidered a bitch, which is
what I mean.
If you're too assertive orpassive, aggressive, Right?
Or you know there's three sidesto it, Right, Passive,
(07:00):
aggressive, aggressive assertive, and then you know so depending
on what the issue is, right.
So I guess I said a lot in thatstatement there, but where I'm
going with this is when did youfinally realize that I'm
comfortable in my own skin nowand I can speak up for myself?
(07:23):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I think it started really in the middle of law
school when I got to law school,right.
So I moved from that tiny ruraltown to Nashville, Tennessee.
I actually went to Vanderbiltfor law school.
I do work at Vanderbilt now.
There were some travel anddifferent jobs in between there,
but I was very intimidated.
I was intimidated by myclassmates.
I was intimidated by thedifference in like social class.
(07:47):
You know, I just did not comefrom.
You know the money and thewealth that some of my
classmates did.
Now some of them did not, right.
So it was a mix of us in termsof race and identity and
international student status andsocial class, and there's a lot
of ways in which I'm veryprivileged and very comfortable
in certain spaces.
(08:08):
But I felt out of place andunprepared really for the first
time and unprepared relative tothe other people in the class,
and so I was really strugglingwith my confidence there and
that was probably a low pointthe first year and a half of it.
But then I was looking fortools, right.
(08:28):
So there were some early booksand I do still recommend them,
although this is now 20, someyears ago.
So some of the examples aregoing to cause you to cringe,
but there's still some good, youknow, ideas in these.
Like nice girls don't get thecorner office.
That was one.
Women don't ask is another one,which is on gender and the
negotiation divide.
So at first I was thinkingabout this in terms of, like
(08:51):
interviewing for my career,negotiating my salary, being
really persuasive when I neededto speak.
Law school helped, but lawschool doesn't exactly teach you
all of that, you know.
I mean, it will teach you tomake an argument and cite your
sources and that's really useful, Right.
So it it helped me figure outhow to prepare and it really
(09:13):
helps me.
The real world, yeah, Right,yes, yeah, and people are
intimidated, just if they.
I mean, I know it's 2025, butpeople still think woman lawyer,
you know, like, oh, she's awoman lawyer, Right?
So they're intimidated before Icome in the room, which helps
me be persuasive once I'm in theroom.
Now I think many times I try tobe pleasant and nice and
(09:34):
friendly and shouldn't be thatintimidated, but I do now
because I've studied it.
But also, you know, practice, ithave the skills to step up and
hold firm, negotiate fairly,assert myself and I will say I
mean aggressive behavior is nothighly recommended, it's very
Western, it's very like Americancapitalist climb.
(09:55):
You know, dog eat dog.
But in that environment youmight want to reserve the right
to engage that behaviorsparingly.
We can talk more about this,but it's not never.
But you want to be assertive inthe.
I'm showing up, I'mparticipating, these are my
needs and wants.
I have this right to this space.
This person has this right totheir needs and wants and you
(10:16):
know we try to get to a fairoutcome.
We're not steamrolling someone,we're not being aggressive, but
because our workplaces can beso unhealthy and sometimes toxic
and unfair, I want you toreserve that right to match bad
behavior with bad behavior whenit's going to get you the
outcome that you want.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Right, I guess I won't say any names, but I guess
I'll give you an example of howI've handled things.
When I wanted to just screambecause communication, like you
said, being in a chaotic workenvironment, working at a head
office at a construction well,the main head office for a
(10:55):
construction company that was myfirst time working in that kind
of environment and this is atotally different round, meaning
that I was hired to be adminand reception.
But when I, when they saw mywork ethic, like certain people
started to take advantage ofthat.
But the where I'm going withthe boundary setting is that
(11:15):
when I had a meeting with mymanager, sometimes I would just
bite my tongue and just be like,ok, I'm going for a break right
now, so I don't say anythingthat I don't want to say because
of the respect factor one.
But I'm new, right, and so Ifind what's challenging is being
assertive in the workplace whenyou just started the job and
(11:39):
you're you just pass yourprobation period and how to do
that, because it's one thingwhen your manager's like, oh,
you could talk to me aboutanything and I'm like but can I
really Cause?
Sometimes when you come intowork you have that look on your
face and the whole office isquiet Cause they know that she's
in a mood today or today's nota good day to talk to her about
(12:01):
anything.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So yeah, so that's really thought I mean.
So your example I mean I'm notcoaching you, but if I were,
there's so many good things,there are so many good things,
right, and just the way youdescribed that example, you are
being thoughtful, you are beingperspective.
You are aware of hierarchywhich, even when I think I was
shaking my head because the niceboss, the friendly boss, the
(12:22):
one who comes in, who's like no,you can talk to me about
anything they're trying todiminish the power differential,
which can be great, right, somepeople like hierarchy just
because they're obnoxious andthey think their title makes
them more than what they are,and that can be a really
unhealthy environment to work in.
There's a whole lot ofmediocrity in that level.
You know where it's like title,but without performance.
(12:43):
I don't wish that on you either, but it is really good to keep
in mind that you are at work andthis person is your supervisor
or your boss, kind of no matterwhat they say, because they can
turn that back on whenever theywant.
And the power differentials areimportant to think about before
you go into those conversationsto help you prepare, because
(13:11):
we're not going to be aggressivestrategically with someone who
outranks you unless you need tobe right, like the aggressive
behavior in the workplace forboundary setting, I think, is a
matter of safety and respect,right and like.
If you're experiencingharassment or discrimination,
you're right, which isdefensible in the law.
Actually, if you'reexperiencing harassment or
discrimination, you're right,which is defensible in the law.
Actually, if we're going thatfar Now most people don't want
it to go that far.
That's not good.
You know that's not helping uson a daily basis, but you know
(13:32):
you have rights in the workplaceand you have the right to
boundaries when people areharassing or discriminating
against you or you know or youfeel unsafe.
But most of the time we're inthis wiggle room where you do
need to be mindful of thoserelationships and you need to
think about the ongoingrelationship.
And when you're a new employee,you're being evaluated.
(13:53):
You don't have as much room toassert yourself as you do when
you're a known quantity.
I have a lot of space.
I've been at the same workplacefor 12 years now.
They know me.
That gives me more grace if I'mhaving a bad day to be like,
ooh, something must really bewrong.
I mean, my work is serious, sothat buys me some room and space
(14:14):
too.
I've got relevant degrees, sothat expertise gives me some
room to push or not.
But these things your identityis always in flux, and so you
need to think about that in themeeting or the conversation with
the person across the table,and that's going to help you
determine when it's a greatstrategy to be passive or a
(14:36):
better or a safer strategy to bepassive aggressive Although we
do have to come back to that,because I really don't recommend
that one that one like that'soften feels like the comfortable
choice but that almost nevergets us to where we want to go.
But I reserve your right tochoose between passivity and
passive aggressive when showingup authentically and assertively
or aggressively is going tobackfire, right?
(14:57):
We don't want you to lose yourjob that you want.
We don't want you to not get apromotion that we want.
We don't want you to have atense, conflict-ridden,
problematic relationship withthe supervisor, right?
So we're going to useassertiveness strategically for
the appropriate boundary setting.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Okay.
So I guess, to help thesituation, for you to coach me
so that you know who.
If you are listening and you'rein a work environment that you
feel like you have to be moreassertive now to express
yourself or get that promotionthat you're looking for, then
this is a different situationaltogether, because I no longer
(15:36):
work for this company.
How things were done?
I came in with an open mind andan eager like whenever you start
a new job, you're eager to do alot of things and because the
way they operate is more oldschool, like loss, it's like
they haven't gone digital yetand so I came in and I helped
(15:58):
organize like the filing andthat kind of you know, the
filing the paperwork and I wasbeing trained by the accounts
payable and not realizing thatthe person who is training me
doesn't have the same authorityas my manager.
So she's acting as if she'shigher up when she's not, but
she's been with the companylonger.
(16:19):
So what happened in the contextof everything is that she saw
my work ethic and how much Icould do and then added to that
and my manager did not know thatall this was happening under
her nose.
And it's like the same behavioris happening again, because I'm
(16:40):
the second person they hired todo this job and somehow it's
happening again.
So it's kind of like theydidn't hire the person that they
needed an uh, an accountingassistant or an assistant to the
accounts payable, but theyhired a receptionist and an
admin.
So it's it's more or less thatissue too, but she was training
(17:01):
me to be her assistant, which isnot what they hired me for,
sure.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
And she would love for you to be her assistant,
right, because you're there andyou're useful and she holds a
type of influence that doesn'talign with you know the hiring
structure or title.
But she does hold influence inthe company, right, so it's good
that you're like aware of that.
But when it becomes too much orthere's a conflict, right, so
it's good that you're, like,aware of that, but when it
becomes too much or there's aconflict, right, you know, my
(17:28):
advice would be that you do needto communicate this to your
actual supervisor, right,because they just need to know
Now they might be fine with it.
Right, it depends on the person.
It depends on the needs of theday, it depends on, like, the
relationship they have with thatperson, because they might be
really frustrated.
They might be like she alwaysdoes this.
This is so frustrating and youdon't want to be in the middle
(17:49):
of that and that's not fair toyou and your role.
But if you're new and you'retrying to prove yourself, you
just take things on, which isadmirable.
But there's a difference betweenproving yourself in the
workplace and taking on too muchinitiative, right, I actually
tell any of my new hires thatI'm like I hired you because you
(18:10):
know you were the strongestcandidate and you're the right
person for the job.
You do not have to prove thatto me in the short term.
I actually don't need a wholelot of initiative from you in
the short term, because I needyou to learn the job the way we
do it.
I need to see consistency fromyou.
I need to see you know aninterest in learning and asking
(18:31):
questions.
I don't need you to take on allof these things and not
communicate that to me, right?
Or I do have, and then otherpeople on the team it's so
similar.
I have some other people on theteam who've been there a few
years, so I tried to guardagainst any new person being
pulled under their wing too much, because they're going to shape
(18:52):
them for their own personal use, which may not be what we hire
them to do, right?
So I mean, a lot of this isexpecting good boundary setting
and relationship building fromour bosses, which we may not get
.
So sometimes we have to manageup right now.
Your boss should haveanticipated this from that
person, and there may not beenough resources in terms of
(19:15):
like people doing the jobs.
But where that's not happening,I do say you should communicate
that which requires you to likehey, do you have a minute?
You know, knock on the door, um, or ask for a meeting.
What people have to reallyreally remember is you want to
do that at a time and a spacethat's good for them, not what's
good for you.
If we're maximizing persuasion,you might just want to get it
(19:37):
over with, right, but morning iswhere people feel like I have
so much to do.
I have to tackle the day thatyou are adding something else to
their list.
So when really think about theother person, when you are
communicating how much you'redoing, what you're worried about
, whatever you're asking for, ifit's a, if it's a raise, if
(19:59):
it's a promotion, if it's timeoff, if it's like you know,
additional responsibility, causeyou want to learn another area,
time it and what's best forthem.
This strategy is actuallycalled empathy mapping and there
are free tools on the internet.
Just it's empathy mapping.
You might find a lot of thingsthat are about selling a product
, but that's okay, right?
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So we're not selling this, though, because in a
position that I'm in, we'regoing to get a new manager, so
it's kind of like building therapport again from the beginning
, right?
So I think when you start a newjob, it's always nerve-wracking
.
Diva tonight, glamour for yourears.
This is 40, a female perspectivewhat you said initially is
(20:40):
great, because the conversationhappened a little too late, when
the damage has had already beendone, and so when I had the
meeting, that's when it was likelisting all my job and my roles
and responsibilities from whenI started to six months in
overachiever here, where itdoubled in terms of feeling
(21:04):
defensive, you know, at thattime, and you're feeling
stressed, Right, and so that'swhere passivity feels safe on a
day-to-day basis.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
I'll just do this, I I'll just do this, I'll make it
work.
I have time.
This could be interesting.
I want to help her too, butwe're not articulating.
You, you haven't guarded yourboundaries, right, about your
role and your time, becauseyou're trying to be all things
to all people, which a lot of usare, you know, and we want to
be helpful people and we want tocontribute at work.
You know, I mean, I don't everhave issues with people who
(21:36):
don't want to do enough.
I have a lot of issues withwomen who are trying to do too
much, right, and so it's aboutwalking that back a bit so that
you can be more effective, youcan be more influential and you
can take care of yourself whileshowing up in these other spaces
, and so that's the importanceof boundary setting.
It's it is.
You can't pour from an emptycup.
(21:57):
You know.
These things are true, some ofthese phrases that have been
around for the older, I get youknow.
I'm like, oh, they're all true,they really are.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
No, they are.
And so I guess, when you'restarting a new position and
you've been there for a fewmonths in terms of like your
once you pass your probationperiod is that when you think
it's good to start laying theboundaries.
Or are we starting from youknow, like what is in your
(22:28):
advice, because you've been inthe industry a while now we're
what is the best time?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I mean, you obviously have to gauge how things are
going, but it's really hard ifyou're a timid person and you
don't always set boundaries itis very hard and you're going to
start small because we're goingto build assertiveness as a
skill and then, like, onceyou've developed assertiveness,
you're going to be good atboundary setting.
You can't do one without theother.
It's the same for any type ofactivism or bystander
(22:55):
intervention.
It's like we can't jump to likesuperhero mode.
You've got to build this andyou've got to maintain it like a
, like a muscle or like a skill.
So you do start small.
You are going to wait, it'sokay.
I don't want you to jump oneverything immediately, it's
(23:21):
okay.
I don't want you to jump oneverything immediately.
And sometimes, with Gen Z andyou know, whatever you call the
younger generation, they feelmore entitled to to talk to you,
you know, and your questionsare valid.
But I need them to prepare moreand not knock on the door and
interrupt.
Right, and it may just, andthey just want to grab me while
they're seeing me and I'm gladthey feel like we have that open
door.
I mean, there are many goodthings about this, but early on,
(23:44):
when you're hired, when you'rethe junior employee, you are not
the top priority of thesupervisor's day.
That's just how work works.
Okay, it's not about you as aperson.
You have all this value as aperson, but you do actually want
to learn that like so.
You want to be new, you want toobserve, you want to want to
figure things out, including theinternal office politics, like
(24:06):
what is the relationship betweenyour supervisor on paper and
then this woman who's you knowknow, teaching you other things,
which honestly, could be agreat opportunity.
You could come in as anadministrative assistant, as an
executive assistant, front door.
You could come in and thenrealize, oh, there's a need over
there or oh, I really work wellwith this person.
We just vibe, you know, like wehave open lines of
(24:29):
communication and when she hasan opening in six months, you
apply for that.
That can be great.
But if it's not what I, that'swhere I would be like I don't
want you sitting on oh, I'mbeing pulled in this direction
and it doesn't feel right andnot talking to the person over
here.
So you would want to maybe notwait until you're off probation
(24:50):
to discuss it, because theprobationary period or the, you
know, the internship period, theapprenticeship period you're
going to have a bit of anevaluation formal or not at the
end of that by the person,because your status changes.
So you would have wanted toclarify or defend yourself
before that meeting.
(25:11):
So a check-in at the end ofmonth one is totally appropriate
.
You know it's like, and I wouldsay, approach that with
positivity and pleasantness.
Not because I need women to bepleasant, I do not but
strategically you're going to bepleasant, strategically right,
because data and being preparedfor a meeting, that's all
important, but the mostpersuasive factor is like
(25:33):
positivity.
I have to talk to my science,engineering and medicine people.
They want to like, bring thewhole like and I want to be like
.
I'm glad you are prepared, butalmost always your supervisor,
the boss, decision maker,doesn't need all that.
If I need it, I'll ask for it.
But if you're like here's why,why, why, why, why, why, why,
(25:53):
why.
I'm like get to the point.
I'd much rather someone leadwith the ask and then have the
rationale if I need it.
It's about, like, really beingefficient, pleasant.
What's the value add you'regiving to that person?
So I would say that person belike hey, you know I love
working here.
Again, thank you for theopportunity.
Um, I feel like I'm learning alot, you know I I do feel like
(26:15):
I'm being pulled in in differentdirections.
I just want to make sure youknow that that's how this job is
supposed to be.
Or, if there's a need overthere, you know that I didn't
think this was the job I hiredto do.
I'm not complaining about that.
I just want to make sure I'mmeeting your expectations and
you may be very concerned aboutthat.
You may be like I do not wantto work for that woman anymore.
But, like, again, let's packageit in a way that is keeping you
(26:39):
seeming really engaged andprofessional, that's maximizing
persuasion, so that you get theoutcome that you want.
It may just be clarity, it mayjust be the check-in, it may be
moving further towards the jobyou applied for and away from
the person who sees you as anopportunity, or it could be.
I mean, I could easily be likeif you are helping her and
(26:59):
that's fun for you.
Thank you, we needed more helpin that area and I just don't
have a position right now right,because other people above me
make those hiring decisionsabout when I can hire or not but
we can shuffle the work aroundin the workplace.
That might be ideal foreveryone, but you're not going
to know till you check in.
So you just don't want to sitin passivity.
You just don't want to sit notsure because also that's
(27:22):
stressful for you the whole timewhere you're like I think it's
this, I hope I'm doing a goodjob.
You know, eventually, just goget those answers.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, yeah.
I think the one thing that Ihave a problem with is like
having that meeting at the onemonth point I think I was
waiting for after three monthsto have the meeting and it I was
like it wasn't happeningbecause always busy, right, like
you said, and you don't want toget them at the wrong time, and
like obviously, eventually wehad the meeting, not because I
(27:50):
asked, but because she wasobserving what was happening in
her department and she was likethis is not happening again.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Well, you don't want her to come to you and make it
like you did something wrong,right, because you're new,
actually Like you're new, andit's really the other person who
was pulling you into the otherwork.
So you look great, you lookprofessional.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Yeah, I look like I was.
I was, I was doing a lot ofwork and I didn't realize that
until I was in the meeting,going over the list of my roles
and responsibilities and beinglike no wonder, I'm burnt out,
right.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Right, yeah, yeah.
So we just want to get ahead ofthat.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
It's not every day.
You can't become like theydon't want to tend to you every
day.
No, they don't.
I don't want to learn aboutsomething that I could have
addressed three months agoeither.
Right?
So everything's a balancing act.
You do want to observe andlearn my team.
They have learned me and theyshould learn me right that, like
I like quiet time in themorning, I do a lot of work in
(28:55):
the morning, then I usually havean afternoon lull where I will
come out and get a snack andsometimes and I try to sit in
either our conference room, youknow, our opening lobby area and
be more personable that's agreat time to ask me for
something, cause I'm like primedto say yes, you know, I'm like
sure that'd be great If theywant that.
That's a great time to ask mesomething now, casually and the
(29:17):
small ask you if I'm taking abreak, and it's my first break
of the day.
You don't want to take thatover.
You know.
You really want to read thescene, because sometimes, when
I'm stressed and busy, I come inand to my wonderful
administrative assistant whodoes so much gatekeeping for me,
I say don't let them swarm me,you know, unless the building's
(29:39):
on fire.
I needed to wait a few hours,you know, but I set my own
boundaries.
Now.
I've been practicing this along time.
She helps me gatekeep and Icommunicate that to them, and
also that's better for thembecause they don't know that
right, the people who workupstairs didn't see me come in,
they don't know what kind ofmood I'm in, but it helps them
not get a frustrated answer or astressed answer from me,
(30:02):
because I've just articulatedthat at the get go and then I'll
come out and then I'll be likesorry, I really needed to focus
on that thing.
Does anyone need anything?
Right, that's the moment forthem to, and then they're still
flexible.
It's like sure, if you've got amoment.
But I got to tell you I want tosay yes to the things that are
so efficiently given to me.
Right, lead with the ask, haveyour rationale ready, but don't
(30:25):
spend so much time telling me.
Don't make me do the work offiguring out what you're
actually asking for.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah, more likely to get the yes, yeah, yeah, no, I
think it's.
It's important to be able toarticulate yourself and ask,
because I think that's thecommunication barrier too.
When you're not able tocommunicate what you need or
maybe not, it's not coming outthe right way.
You know what I mean whenyou're, when you're in the hot
seat.
Because you feel like you're inthe hot seat, it's just a
meeting with you and yourmanager, right, and there's no
one else there.
It's just like, and then she'sgot her notebook and and so
(31:01):
you're just, you know, like withany she knew she was having the
meeting and she knew she wasgoing to have the conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
So this is not fair, right?
Yeah, I think I realized this.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I think I knew I was having the meeting too, so, okay
, I lucked out that between thetime that we both, that my
colleague had told me like prior, she's like make sure you write
down every single thing you do,because that's good they don't
forget in the moment.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, and they don't know.
They really don't.
I mean that's such a key pointwhen you do your job well, I
don't have to see it, you knowit.
I mean that's such a key pointwhen you do your job well, I
don't have to see it, you know,it's just getting done.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
That's the dream, you know.
Oh yeah, I was the dream.
I was the dream in thebeginning.
Oh, she's like oh my God,you're totally different.
And I take notes and like allthese things Right, and so, yes,
this is common.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah.
So this is really common amongwomen is we think we'll do a
good job and they will recognizeit.
But you got to remember howbusy and self-absorbed most
people are, right, and so it'slike if that problem is not on
my desk, I don't have to see it.
I don't even know necessarilywho did it.
I do at my workplace, come backand be like you know I'll even
(32:10):
be like who cleaned theconference room or who wiped the
table down.
You know it's like it's not oneperson's job, it's all our job
actually, you know.
So I try to ask later and thenrecognize and thank someone, but
most of the time I am notseeing it as it's getting done.
So if you are waiting for yourgold star to be given by someone
, you have to like we're not inschool anymore.
You know it's not their job tograde your paper, it's work
(32:34):
which is different, and so youdo sometimes have to toot your
own horn or and you don't haveto brag about it, but you can be
like at the appropriate time.
You know I was working on this,I was working on this, I was
working on this, and you caneven flip it.
So it sounds like you're askingfor feedback from them when
you're actually making sure thatthey know everything that you
did.
But you can be like did Ihandle that well?
(32:55):
Is there anything that youwould recommend I do differently
?
There'll be plenty of timeswe'll be like I didn't even know
you were handling that, butthank you Right.
So framing all of theseconversations is key.
It involves prep work, which wedon't always have time for is
key.
It involves prep work, which wedon't always have time for, but
(33:16):
when we practice assertivenesswhich I think we've talked about
but not really gotten to howyou start is going to make you
better prepared for theimpromptu conversation.
It's going to make you betterprepared for the formal
scheduled conversation.
What I saw was a lot of womentrying to come to me the day
before they needed to negotiatetheir salary and listen, I'll
help you.
You need a script.
Reach out to me, I'll send yousome language.
(33:37):
But that's never going to be aseffective as we hope, because
we're cramming the night beforeand you might get the right
words out of your mouth, butthen I need you to not undermine
your position or to get off thephone or to get out of the
meeting, and that's what'sreally hard for people because
they're like okay, here's how Imake the ask, here are the words
(34:02):
.
I can say the words, but thereare so many other things going
on.
But I was just thinking like,oh, this is never going to work
if we just do this once everythree to five years or just once
a year even.
You know, we like you to reallybe assertive and engaged and
propelling your career forwardor your relationship forward or
whatever it is we're working on.
You really have to show up andassert yourself on a daily basis
.
That starts with you have tofigure out where you are right.
(34:25):
You have to do some sort ofassessment.
There are some free onlinetools.
There's some worksheets in mybook, you know, but you can
really start today just byfiguring out some simple things.
So, if you are, I'm always on acollege campus, so those are my
examples come from.
So I'm like, if you're walkingacross campus and some of the
sidewalks are narrow, are youalways the person who moves or
(34:48):
not?
Because that's going to tellyou something, and sometimes
that's polite, and sometimes wewant to give the other people
more room because that is theright thing to do, but if, are
you always inconveniencingyourself for others.
If you're on a plane, are you aperson who claims the armrest,
or do you never get an armrestright?
Are you always folding yourselfin to take up less space and
(35:09):
letting the random humans youdon't know have one or both arm
rests?
That's going to tell yousomething about who you are and
how you engage right are.
Now, you know I'm a lawyer.
We're terrible at this.
We interrupt people all of thetime.
It's kind of the nature of theprofession and we should work on
that.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
But are you the person.
Sometimes, when you do that,that is when you get your point
across and that's the money,that's the moneymaker, that's
like that's the moneymaker,that's your Harvey Specter
moments.
You know I'm pretty, I hope youknow.
Well, a lot of people know whoHarvey Specter is, from Suits,
right, and so I think he is asan actor.
(35:49):
He is the epitome of what itmeans to be in a courtroom and
command a room, or even in aconference room.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yes, even in the conference room.
Yeah, you can do that.
You can like enjoy your shows.
And I have other workshops orworksheets.
I get out in a workshop and youknow I can put for your
listeners.
I'm happy to put some of theseup for free on my website.
But one of them is you know, forthe introvert, like this feels
very hard, right?
I love the Enneagram, you know,for different numbers.
(36:21):
There's Myers-Briggs, there'sall these personality tests.
I highly recommend those.
Start with those.
That'll help you learn aboutyourself.
But then you're going to have totake the knowledge or the
assessment out of your head andput it into practice.
You are.
You're going to have to ask forsomething.
You're going to have to speakup in a meeting.
So pick the low stakes thingfirst, so it feels safe.
(36:42):
All right, just try to talkonce every meeting.
That's your practice.
So then, when you're ready, youfeel you do a better job for
the tough thing.
Some people think I'm fearless.
I am not fearless.
I'm not.
It's strategic and I'mexhausted at the end of the day
and sometimes I just like allface down and, you know, in my
(37:02):
dress and heels at the end ofthe day and I'm like, oh, but I
did the best I could.
So I can at least be satisfiedat the end of the day that I
tried Right.
That I tried right it doesn'tmean it's easy.
It does get easier.
Sometimes I need to dial itback now.
I've been doing it too long.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, youdo not need to be this assertive
when you are deciding whatwe're eating for dinner outside
of the workplace.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Dial it back here, you know so whereas I'm staring
at the menu still, and they'relike looking at me oh, ma'am,
miss, have you figured out?
Like I'm just like give me aminute, I still need a minute.
Or just like walk back and belike do I want the Angus or do
that's me?
I would do I want the Angus ordo I want the cheapest meal on
the menu?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
This is a balancing act, but I would, even in the
restaurant I would be like Ithink there's so much space for
women and especially like women,choose what pleases you, get
what pleases you.
If your budget is theoverriding concern, you don't
want to be stressed about thatlater, so choose the cheaper
meal.
But if you don't know, likesometimes, just choose what
pleases you, feed that for awhile and then that's actually
(38:02):
going to make you more assertive.
Right, I want you to feelentitled.
Entitled is a problem when it'spaired with privilege.
Right, and then when we'retrampling people's rights.
But there's so much room forwomen to feel more entitled.
Right, our rights are beingtrampled.
Sometimes we do not feel safe.
Sometimes our work is beingoverlooked in the workplace.
I could handle a whole lot moreof entitlement, so that we are
(38:24):
setting boundaries that outlineour rights.
It is not bad for you to choosethe pleasurable item on the menu
.
Choose what you want.
You know it's not what we need.
There's a lot we don't need,you know.
I mean, like, in certainconstraints we need to focus on
needs.
But if women had more, I meanwe're going in a different
direction here, like into thepleasure conversation.
(38:46):
It lessen work.
But I want you to have a goodtime at work, I want you to feel
fulfilled at work, I want youtreated fairly at work.
But passive behavior andpassive aggressive behavior is
not going to get you there,because other people are focused
on themselves, are showing upfor themselves.
The guy on TV show, that's amodel to watch, like think of
(39:09):
your three people.
You know, and I mean I'm older,so I loved Claire Huxtable on
the Cosby Show.
She was a role model, you know,and I mean I thought I was
never going to grow into that,but I was like, oh man, I would
love to handle a situation, youknow, like Felicia Rashad, like
Claire Huxtable.
You know, and I like I thinkmaybe I'm approaching it now.
You know, at this age and thisstage of my career.
(39:31):
But oh my gosh, I was nothinglike that before you know.
I think I was like quiet kindof angsty person Cause I was.
I didn't feel like people wereincluding me or hearing me and
that I wasn't getting what Iwanted.
You gotta be clear, you know,you gotta find it.
But then I'll tell you so onceyou've tried, once you've put
yourself out there, once you'veshown up in the meeting and you
(39:52):
engage and you say I think weshould do this because and you
get your win, it's so satisfyingand it keeps you going and you
learn that you survived thetough meeting and you survived
the tough conversation we do.
We've survived them all so far.
You know we have.
It might be.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Yes, right, yeah, it takes a while, but for sure
you're stronger than you think.
I think.
I think that, yes, right, yes,yeah, that is a lot, and I think
it's one of those things whereit's like you said, you have to
start small and then recognizingyour wins and like just that
positive self-talk.
(40:29):
I think a lot of us have towork on that too, that we can do
this and then do it so, likewhen you're coaching.
I think it's important to saythat we will have another
conversation about boundaries indifferent contexts.
When it comes to relationshipslike with your partner, someone
you're dating, friends andfamily partner, someone you're
(40:54):
dating yes, friends and familylike there's so many things
where we need to set ourboundaries, because I will
allude to this that I'm learningnow that with one of my
siblings, I have to setboundaries because it's taking a
toll, like in certain situation, it's taking a toll, it does,
yeah, and so it is.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I think it's where we started.
I think we're back to where westarted, but you're stronger
than you think, and that's whywomen in their 40s, we have
learned it.
You know, there's always moreto learn, we can be better, but
we we've learned that we'restronger than we're thinking, so
we are so well poised to setthe best boundaries we ever have
in our life.
Now's the time.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, oh, yes, because I think, like you said,
like now we're in that era wherewe've been through different
scenarios and learn from thoseexperiences, where we're like I
don't want that to happen again.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
So it's so nice to meet you andhave you on the show.
(41:53):
Cara Tuttle Bell, right, do youlike?
Do you like the whole whenpeople say your full name?
Speaker 2 (41:59):
or well, I'm in the process.
I mean, this is women on lifeface.
So I got divorced a few yearsago.
I've dropped the bell.
It's still on all the books andthings, so you know, yeah, yeah
, I'm not offended, but I'm.
I'm going back to Cara Tuttle,which, yes, practice, um, but
you can find me online atcaratuttlebellcom.
Right, so I'm not offended, butI'm going back to Caratotal,
which is in practice, but youcan find me online at
caratotalbellcom.
So I'm really just in the midstof it as we speak, but I will.
(42:20):
There's like a chapter in mybook for each of the things we
talked about Work, you know,romantic and sexual
relationships, family.
There's worksheets in there,but I'll put some free tools on
my website for your listeners,and so you can find me at
caracatabellecom.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
You know, as we were, just discussing and that's
where those will be yes, and sothe book is Drowning in Timidity
.
Yeah, like I write this book.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Women, politeness, I know I was like yeah, I've said
it a million times, you know.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
I mean it takes a scholar like yourself to figure
out the way.
Like I mean the title of yourbook, the title of anything
really like.
Even me with diva tonight, Icould tell you I've had a few
opinions on this title from like.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I thought it was great, I thought it was fun.
I was like this will be a funconversation, I want to be there
.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yes, of course.
No, it has been fun and I feellike you did coach me and I I
think like if I had to do itagain, I would tread lightly
because I think I came in strongand that's love.
Yeah, but we want to bestrategic, yeah, definitely.
So I'm Carlene and this is DivaTonight with Cara
(43:35):
Tuttle-Bellcom.
If you want to go on herwebsite, she's going to include
some great resources for you andme.
We need all the help we can getin this life, especially when
it comes to setting boundaries.
So thank you so much and I knowyou'll be back, is that right?
You'll be back on.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Thank you, I'd be very happy to be back.
I feel like we could talk forhours, so we will Over time, for
sure.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back.
Send us a message on Instagramat Diva underscore tonight.
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