October 31, 2025 • 74 mins
What's truly "spooky" this Halloween? The unprecedented demand for drilling professionals! In Episode 3 of The Drillercast, hosts Brock and Dave discuss the industry's workforce "nightmare", from record-breaking apprentice classes to new legislative support.
Fitting the holiday, they analyze the drilling inaccuracies in the blockbuster Armageddon. While the movie's physics are a "nightmare", the hosts agree with its core premise: it's easier to teach a driller to be an astronaut than an astronaut to be a driller.
Why? Because drilling is more than a procedure; it's a "science and an art", requiring microsecond adjustments and a feel that takes years to develop. Listen to the full episode to hear why the skills of a driller are truly out of this world.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
That's right.
This is a new episode, and weare really excited to be back.
You can find us bi weekly.
Head over to the driller.com forthe best content in the drilling
and construction industry.
Now please that awesome music byFar Under.
Let's go.
(00:39):
We've made three.
And the first two of the Brockand Dave podcast, the bad
podcast, trailer cast, are outthere and are doing quite well.
Gotten some good feedback on umhard hats versus helmets.
And the talking pay is is a bigdeal.
(01:01):
And this episode is dropping onHalloween.
And um there's a lot of spookythings going on out there in the
construction industry and in uhin community in general.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
So how are you doing, Dave?
I'm doing well.
I don't know about spookyeverywhere, but we've noticed uh
you know a demand that we hadn'tseen uh for a long time.
We just recently have uh addedseven brand new uh drooling
(01:40):
apprentices this time of year,which almost never happens,
right?
So uh I think for our area therein Chicago, it it brings us over
30 for this year, which you knowthat's brand new people on top
of the on top of the people thatwe have.
And after uh the evaluation,which is two weeks, was done, we
(02:06):
placed all of them and reallyhave already been told by
February they want another one.
I could have probably used morepeople for this one, uh, but we
used the projections that uhthat were provided to us, what
the industry thought that theycould could handle, but I could
easily have put three or morefour other people to work right
(02:30):
away um in new careers indrilling that is gonna uh you
know, not jobs in drilling,careers in drilling.
They they've been they've beenlaid out a uh a course
curriculum and a learningschedule, and and we're gonna
help them with that.
And it's an exciting time.
Uh, you know, I I have neverseen it this busy all over this
(02:58):
at this time, which is a goodthing, right?
It's a good thing.
A little scary though, becauseit's scary because can we
maintain this?
We need we need to continue tomove forward.
I recently had a uh had acontingent of um uh lawmakers at
our facility that we did somestuff for geothermal uh that are
(03:22):
working on a new bill inIllinois to promote geothermal
and to uh hopefully uh you knowmirror what they have in in uh
New York in order to drive thisindustry forward.
So it's an exciting time.
Uh as long as we can maintainit, we can build careers.
(03:43):
We just don't want to we don'twant to put people in a in a
career that then all of a suddenuh dries up some.
Uh but we're gonna have itsconstruction, we're gonna have
those pits and valleys, but uhhopefully we can ride as many
highs as we can by beingproactive.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
It's it is an exciting time.
And you know, the the lastepisode we talked about the
importance of pay, and you knowwhat?
The prevailing wage aspect ofthe geothermal ITCs, along with
many states across the country,including starting with New York
(04:25):
with Governor Hokel, who did theThermal Energy Networks and Jobs
Act.
And uh the way we're looking atthis as a family sustaining wage
is fantastic because we're we'recreating sustainable energy with
people that can continue to doit.
And I um you graduated seven newapprentices.
(04:50):
I talked to 75 fourth gradersthis week, and um it was three
science blocks, and I was givenuh just under an hour, and so
you know, we we teach a lot, anduh had a couple takeaways from
this.
First, I was like, okay, howmany slides do I need for you
(05:14):
know just under an hour withquestions?
And at first I did 30, and thenI was like, you know what, I'm
gonna put some filler in therebecause I'm worried they're just
gonna glaze over.
So I put 45.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Can I guess what you needed?
What I'm gonna say 10.
I'm gonna say 10 because thequestions are going to be uh
substantial at fourth grade.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
I you know what?
So Mrs.
Brooks uh Winchell Elementary,she is teaching in energy
section right now from thebeginning of the year, and
they're talking about afictitious town called Ergstown
having blackouts, and thecurriculum uh that is working is
talking about renewable energy.
(06:02):
And as my daughter has come homeand talking talked about
different sections, um, they'vetalked a lot about wind and
solar, and then they talk alittle about hydro.
And so I went, huh, Brill, arethey talking about geothermal?
And she's like, No, that's whatyou do, that's not renewable
(06:24):
energy.
SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
Well, you know what it that's a microcosm of um the
the outlook of the generalpublic is that they don't
understand that it is arenewable energy because
although it's electricity thatruns it, the efficiencies are so
high that that we're actuallyyou know uh using you know a
(06:53):
kilowatt of energy and maybedelivering the equivalent of
three or four kilowatts ofenergy to the to the area.
So, you know, it is a renewableenergy, but that it tells it
tells you because that teacherdidn't see it that way, that
(07:13):
that the population as a wholehears the the name, but equates
that with maybe hot rock energy,or just they don't know what it
means.
SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
It's it's the curriculum.
And I'll tell you what, I don'tknow who will end up listening
to us on and we I don't know howmany times we preface this part
of the nightmare.
Um I scoured, you know, and I Imeet people at conferences all
the time that go, I'm doing Kthrough 12 curriculum.
I'm talking about geothermal andrenewable energies to K through
(07:50):
12.
And I think we have a lot ofupper middle school through high
school discussions, and you canget into some pretty broad
things.
But I went to the majorassociations looking to see what
they have, and I know ChristineHofer kicks butt at New York Geo
and talks with the Bose studentsand whatnot, but uh J Egg has
(08:13):
the the coloring book and somevery uh great foundational
stuff.
Um, but I needed somethingfourth grade science with a
fictitious town called Erbstownthat's having rolling blackouts.
And um hey, I just built it.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Brock, what's the geology of Erbstown?
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
You know, that was a question asked by a fourth
grader.
Yeah, Brock, but uh you know,the sun shines everywhere and
the wind blows everywhere, anduh, you know, we we get this.
Um how is this geothermal gonnawork?
And what's funny as as I'm alsotalking with because of uh the
(09:01):
big buffoonal bill that shiftedthe um IROA IRA to the new
geothermal, new normal thatwe're seeing as Damby Lyon is
talking about hey, we're comingup with leasing programs for
builders in residential homes.
And I I am involved in a in aprogram for you know geothermal
(09:22):
as a service right now as wellon my my big kid job.
And I said to uh little Billy,and that's not his name, but uh,
we're keeping these individualsuh in their wholesome world.
I said, This works everywhere.
And I I literally had an ahamoment because I literally just
(09:44):
had the same discussion withvery rich financially smart
people that I go with.
You were able to sell 400 acresof solar panels or 90 windmills
where the sun shines sometimesand the wind blows sometimes,
(10:06):
but uh 15 feet below thesurface, it's 52 degrees or 47
degrees, or if we're down inTexas 65 or 70 degrees, and it's
been that way for severalmillion years.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
Well, the the thing the thing people don't
understand is just the batteryconcept, right?
The earth is a solar battery,period, full stop.
The the energy from the sun isabsorbed by the earth and is
stored.
All we're doing is accessing it,right?
And then learning how to turnthat into either heating and
(10:50):
cooling, you know.
As long as I have a temperaturedifference, and then we're
already using what you alreadyhave free on, or um, and by the
way, I didn't hit thetemperature difference bell
right there.
That was my phone.
I'm about to shut the uh thesound off.
(11:14):
This this, by the way, is infact a amateur uh well, I
shouldn't say amateur.
This is a professional podcastrun by two amateurs at
podcasting, professionaldrillers, amateur podcasters,
right?
I know I bet the different.
I think at this point I'm aprofessional podcaster, and uh
(11:34):
nobody believes I'll give youprofessional podcaster, I will
give me amateur co-host.
How's that?
No, just because you know theyalso won't probably uh I'm gonna
have to really work, and I and Ilove doing like stuff with young
kids, but because of spending asmuch time as I have with adults,
(12:00):
um I I really have toconcentrate if I'm with young,
young kids.
I never swore the entire time mykids were young, and if you
swore in front of them, itpissed me off.
Now I'm the one that has to bebiting my tongue because I
almost in it, and so I'verecently found that oh, hey,
(12:25):
you've become a little more likeyou were in the field and a
little less like you were athome.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
You know, I um I didn't have any Freudian slips,
and uh I once in front of themountain states uh water well
drilling conference teaching umrecruitment and 20 and then
hiring 21st century employees,and this this class I taught was
(12:57):
2017-2018.
And I I said the fudge word as auh as talking about a young man
having his hand smashed and whatthat meant to a company, and I I
said it in a comical likemanner, but I had to write a
(13:23):
letter and apologize.
And um funny enough, when Iapologized to the entire
association, everybody's like,we don't remember you saying it,
but one individual did, and theyneeded to know that I I
overstepped my bounds by sayingit.
Um, I think they're also thesame individual that would have
(13:46):
rather been in a uh class onvariable speed pumps and not
listening to some 37-year-oldkid at the time talking about
how we need to hire allindividuals, not just you know,
the same traditional individualswe've been hiring ourselves.
SPEAKER_02 (14:07):
Well, it's it's really hard to find those same
traditional individuals becauseour our economy is driving many
of them uh away from what theytraditionally did, right?
Uh farming is much, much harderto to do now, especially under
(14:29):
our recent uh uh changes in inwhat's going on.
So if there's no if there's nofuture in it, they don't want to
continue in that kind of work.
So they are available, but nowwe have to make this uh
attractive.
(14:50):
And that's the that's the hardthing.
We we really have to make again,and I know this is a broken
record coming from me.
We have to show them the careerand show them what advantages we
have coming to this industry,you know.
Um we uh they are out there, butthere's just as good a candidate
(15:13):
who are just as hungry fromeverywhere else in the country.
There's uh I have a couplefemale uh apprentices that are
cornerstones for their companynow, right?
I've got I've got some gentlemenfrom the uh you know from rough
(15:36):
areas in the inner city thatwork for uh you know traditional
water well companies, you know,all that they have to be able to
do is get to the job, and that'sthat's one of the problems we
have is that uh when we recruitfrom the inner city is that uh
(16:00):
we don't typically you can't getpublic transportation to the
job, so you have to have yourown car, which a lot of times
there's nowhere to put a car inthe city.
Uh, so it doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Well, what does it cost?
Like, let's talk nightmares,it's Halloween.
What is parking cost for aconstruction worker for a day?
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Well, parking cost for a day uh in our area a lot
of times is uh worked into thebudget of the job.
Uh but what I'm talking about issomebody who's got to own their
vehicle but lives in uh an areathat doesn't have the
(16:44):
infrastructure except for on thestreet.
And then when it's on when youhave a vehicle on the street,
uh, you know, you don't know insome of those areas, you know,
how can you afford to have anice car on the street?
You probably can't, and then youhave to rent a garage or
something in order to be able toput it's it becomes a another
(17:04):
hardship for them to be able todo it, so it becomes a difficult
recruiting tool.
And so when you do run intothose people that hey, I can get
do you have good reliabletransportation?
One of our one of the basicquestions that we have to ask in
our initial interview, do youhave reliable transportation?
(17:27):
Right, and it makes sensethough, because what's the one
thing a contractor cannot abide?
Someone who's not there on timeor just doesn't show up because
you know, hey, I had a I had aflat or my my cars broke down,
you know.
So the I don't have I'm not Idon't have an answer for that as
(17:53):
far as how we fix it, but butit's a consideration that we
have to look, okay, when we arerecruiting from these other
areas, that it's hard.
But I've got some guys that camefrom those areas and still live
there that you know have seenthe benefit of you know working
(18:14):
for one of these companies andyou know being able to work
towards being able to move outof that area because it's
extraordinarily expensive tolive in the city.
I know that's a hard thing foryou to understand, but even when
you're living in one of thoseareas that's that's uh run down,
(18:35):
it's extremely expensive.
So getting out of there comparedto you know growing up where
where I grew up or where yougrew up is what way more
expensive than it was when wewere growing up.
But in towards the cities iseven is even worse.
And so to move out now, you needto find a decent job to even get
(18:59):
an apartment now.
Apartments cost more than whatmy initial mortgage, and that's
for a one-room apartment.
My initial mortgage was lessmoney than what than what some
of these people are paying forapartments.
Heck, some of the car paymentsfor a newer vehicle are up
around where uh you know wherewe used to have housing for
(19:21):
that.
So so I was shocked the otherday.
Somebody told me that they'reyou know they they were paying
on a you know basic basic car,like not even a like fancy car,
not sports car, not a big car,small car, and they were, you
know, oh it's my payment is sixhundred dollars a month, plus
(19:41):
insurance, plus and I'm like,how I I don't understand how at
the wages that we are offering,how are we how are we really
gonna work somebody out of that,you know, uh more hours, more
whatever, but it it becomes adifficult choice, especially
(20:07):
when you can choose the fastfood restaurant a mile away for
similar money, and then now I'mnot burning all that fuel.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
It's a yes, yes, and this is the same discussion we
just had.
You know, we we talk family sussustaining wages, and um you're
absolutely right.
Uh a reliable vehicle andinsurance, and then you you're
in the third largest city in thecountry.
(20:37):
Um, when you get into parking ortraffic or fuel, the amount of
road time, like those all haveto be considered, you know, or
you go work for buckies, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Yeah, if there's a buckies buy it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
Yeah.
Um and it's that's the other endof it, you know.
In in the nightmare of we needmore workforce, as you're
talking about I've never heardof you saying we just graduated
seven in October when we surelyknow that we are in late
(21:22):
October, like slush, snow, ice,um, road conditions, like winter
is coming, and that you know,you're gonna get somebody just
started, and then we're gonnahave to slow down.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
Well, I guess from what we're seeing on some of the
companies that are that arehiring these people, right?
Uh they're not seeing aslowdown.
They're seeing where they haveto stop, they'll stop.
Other than that, the theschedules are not gonna let them
stop, and the amount of work isis pretty high.
(22:02):
So, because you know, rememberwe service the entirety of
industrial drilling, you know,so it's geothermal, it's
geotechnical, it's uhconstruction drilling, it's
dewatering, right?
So we've we've seen uh all ofthis stuff.
Will there be a slowdown forsome other institutions?
(22:25):
Sure.
Uh the geotechnical side,though, doesn't believe there's
gonna be a slowdown.
They've actually said if wecould provide it, they'd they'd
add crews, and you know that'sthat's crazy dog.
Plus, there's a lot of travelinggoing on too.
So, you know, some of thesecompanies know they don't want
to they they want to keep theirmachines busy, so they might
(22:50):
look for some work down south orsome some other stuff and to be
able to to keep things rolling.
Because once, you know, likeanyone, once you get somebody
trained that you like, layingthem off is a bad idea because
if I have to lay you off, what'sto say that somebody who has
(23:12):
other work doesn't snatch youup, and then there's no
guarantee you wind up back withme, right?
So the more you know, if if allyou're looking for is a warm
body, that's not a problem.
But if you're looking forsomebody building a career
understanding what you guys doand helping your company
forward, you can't afford to dothat.
(23:34):
So so I think a lot of them arelooking at more long-term
solutions of hey, we're gettingquality candidates through here
through this system, and wewanna we wanna try and keep them
busy as long as we can so thatwe don't put the resources in
(23:55):
training them the way we wantthings done and how this system
works for our company, and thenhave to worry about training
somebody else next year becausewe laid them off and they went
to work for our competitor,right?
Uh, so we see a lot of thiscoming.
They've already told us theyneed more people in February
(24:16):
that we're going to have to run,we're going to have to run
another evaluation in Februaryso that when weather starts to
break in March, they can addcrews.
So, I mean, it's a it's a greatproblem to have that I'm re
retooling all of our schedulingthat would that we've
(24:38):
traditionally done because youknow I have other we do have
other things that theinstructors do.
You know, we do stuff with thewith the heavy equipment
operators for safety classes.
I teach the case on classes, wehave some other stuff to do, but
drilling is my primary thing.
So, you know, we're going towe're gonna have to shift our
(24:59):
schedules all around to figureout okay, this new this new
reality we're in, how do we meetit?
Right?
Because it's it's on us to tomake sure we give quality
candidates to the contractor,right?
And so we're gonna do that comehell or high water.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
It's um it's a good problem to have.
And you know, as we've rolledinto the intro and we've thought
about workforce as a nightmare,I uh I for years have wanted to
have this discussion with you.
And I think we're we're finallyable to on Halloween.
(25:37):
Um not a very scary movie,unless unless you really start
thinking about it.
You know, do you know what movieI'm talking about or I'm
thinking about, don't you?
SPEAKER_02 (25:49):
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.
You're you're not you're notflying me to an asteroid, are
you?
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, and we have that like 3-1A Atlas
asteroid flying by us right now.
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
Yeah, we do, and um I'm not sure if we could catch
it because you know uh let'stalk reality here.
It's moving faster than whatphysics say it should, right?
And that's and and I'm uh let mepreface this.
(26:29):
Dave Bowers is not anastrophysicist.
Dave Bowers can barely drones.
I do fly drones, but they don'tmove that fast.
Dave Bowers has seen things, isall all he's seen.
But if it's moving faster, howare we catching it?
Right?
We're not catching it to put ato put a uh drill rig on it.
I'm I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
No, um and uh I love this conversation because I
forever I would say I'm too.
SPEAKER_02 (26:58):
It's your favorite movie, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
First, everything until they land and pull a drill
out is my favorite movie, andthen and then I just have so
many questions, and um thetheaters I did too.
I started the drive-in movietheater with my girlfriend at
the time, Lena Dussel.
SPEAKER_02 (27:22):
Uh I saw well, I saw it in the theaters, I believe,
with my father, mother, and mywife, if I remember.
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
Because it was summer blockbusters.
SPEAKER_02 (27:37):
We we don't have that anymore.
The only I can only think of twomovies I saw with my parents and
my wife.
The other one is Titanic.
Anyway, so I saw this with myand as soon as the the drilling
stuff started happening, I'mlike, you've got to be kidding
me.
This is the least realisticdrilling that I've ever seen in
(28:02):
my life.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Uh it's it's funny because it's zero atmosphere and
it's moving, and I don't knowwhat the tubing is that's coming
out of the hole as they'redrilling.
Like, are we drilling reverse?
Are we drilling with air?
Like what is it a kick?
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Like, what what is the kick?
This is this is this is was whatwas breaking my brain, is that
we were we were drilling andexhausting uh exhausting
(28:44):
cutting.
So that leads you to believethere's some sort of compressed
air source, compressed nitrogensource, air source.
Look at the size of the machine.
There's nothing else hooked toit, right?
It's not pulling a giant tank,right?
So it it cannot.
(29:06):
There is nothing to compress tomake what's going on go on,
right?
And that was just but there's nofluid, so it had to be some sort
of compress uh of gas media,right?
So to me, I could not come upwith uh and and just like you, I
think at that time at thatmoment, my uh my I could not
(29:32):
suspend my belief long enough tofinish this movie, right?
Because I'm like, they couldhave they should have done
something, right?
Because you can hammer all youwant, nothing's gonna come out
of the nothing's gonna it looklike a top hammer rig, which are
not known for real speed, by theway.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
It's it's great.
And it I love how our drilleregos are.
Like, nope, like the drilling'snot realistic enough on a
planet-killing asteroid.
Yet, we can believe from thebeginning of the movie that it
is easier to train a driller tobecome an astronaut than it is
(30:16):
for an astronaut to become adriller.
SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
They didn't train them to become astronauts.
They really didn't.
They told them they taught themhow to put a suit on, basically,
right?
That the astronauting part wasdone by astronauts, right?
Um, I would love to have theopportunity, uh, however, you
(30:39):
know, that also is somewhatunrealistic.
I believe you have to be inshape a little bit to withstand
the the G-forces of uh takeoff,re-entry, those things.
There's a reason that astronautsaren't you know shaped like me
or you, typically, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:02):
Oh, I I don't know.
It's uh it's hilarious.
And at the same time, when Ithink of recruitment, and I
think of the beginning of thatmovie, and I I actually have the
like Bruce Willis monologue inmy phone of um that what catches
(31:30):
me in the first like 20 minutes,you know.
Um we get past the the comicaloffshore stuff, and we get to
Bruce Willis and Billy BobThornton talking.
And uh Bruce Willis says, youknow, drilling is science, it is
(31:52):
a science, it's an art, youknow, and that's something we
talk about, right?
That that learned response,those microsecond adjustments.
And you as a a drillinginstructor and a drone pilot or
a a pilot with um earplanes andeverything else, like I have
(32:15):
always said that drilling isvery similar to being a pilot,
like a test pilot, not a not adragon rocket that mission
control controls the entire wayup, but you know, back to the
response.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
Here's the similarity, right?
Is that you're constantly ofthis is a similarity between
radio control, not with drones,but with with like radio control
aircraft that that don'tself-fly and uh drilling.
You're constantly having todecide what that next outcome
(33:01):
should be.
What what's going on now?
How do I correct it?
What's the next outcome, right?
Whether it be you're trying tofly, you know, just easy circles
or you're trying to flyaerobatics or whatever it is,
it's the same thing going on,and it's why uh you know, being
a an operator of a drill rig,where I learn I know what the
(33:24):
levers do, and being a drilleris a is a relatively long
process, and it really startsfrom the day you start running a
rig and ends about the timewhere you stop running a rig
because you're gonna constantlylearn there's constantly gonna
be something new, and you haveto interpret on very limited
(33:45):
information.
We don't have a we don't have auh a live camera at the bit,
right?
We've got uh drilling action,sound of the rig, the color of
the cutting, or the color of thefluid coming out if you're using
mud.
We've got what the you know, andwe're making decisions based on
that.
And my uh uh the speed that it'spenetrating, right?
(34:08):
All of those things, and we'remaking decisions on what to do.
Think about that first time youwent out on the on a rig.
Uh, I believe the the story goesthat you kind of buried it a
little bit trying to show howfast you could go, right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:22):
It wasn't my first time, that was just the first
time at the at the controls onthe platform.
SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
No, that's what I mean.
The first time that you were youwere the driller, right?
So I know what I'm doing, lookhow fast I can go.
And you know, we we tell peopleall the time that you know it's
it's really that a lot of timesfor most drilling, it's the
turtle in the hare, right?
If if you're rushing, bad'sgonna happen.
(34:51):
If you find a rhythm that youcan maintain over that entire
day, you're gonna get thingsdone.
And that's and that's the that'sthe real key.
It's the same thing flying,right?
If I'm if I'm trying to go fromone maneuver to the next
maneuver and I'm reacting to theaircraft, chances are we're
(35:17):
gonna have a crash.
Chances are we're gonna stick abit, chances are we're gonna
have a problem.
But if I'm not going over myabilities, so ahead of the
aircraft, right?
I'm not, I'm not uh uh what ishis name?
Jace, I believe.
Jace the ace is like the betright now the best aerobatic 3D
(35:42):
pilot for RC, right?
Uh whatever.
I just know his name, right?
His name is Jace.
I don't remember his last nameis.
Anyway, I'm not him.
If I try to fly like him, we'repicking sticks up, right?
Because I don't have theability.
I have the ability to do thingsthat that I know I can do as
long as I stay inside of myability and I don't let the
(36:07):
aircraft get ahead of me, whereI'm making uh I'm making
reactions to what it's doingrather than planning what it's
doing.
And and it's the same thingplanning a drill job, right?
Maybe that first hole on ageothermal job, even for an
(36:28):
experienced guy in badconditions, it can get ahead of
him, but it won't get ahead ofhim.
Has he studied logs of thatarea?
Has he worked in that areabefore?
Has he right?
That whole experience element,and if he does his homework,
chances are it's not going toget ahead of it.
However, the rest of the jobshould go relatively smooth,
(36:55):
except for something unforeseenthat he can't predict.
But those things become less andless as he does his homework.
Uh it's no different.
You and I did that job uh yearsago at uh Lasma.
I know that Lazma is horribledrilling, right?
(37:17):
And we so when we showed up, wehad all these contingencies.
That why are you bringing allthat?
Because I don't know.
I've been out here before, I'veseen so many different issues
happen here in Lasma.
So I had to plan for everycontingency, and we got the
(37:40):
project done, not as quickly asI would have liked, but the
project was finished, right?
Uh and all the all theparameters were met by the end
of the project.
Client was happy.
That's all that matters, right?
Now, if I have a choice betweena job in Lasma and a job in
(38:03):
Wilmington for the same money,I'm taking the Wilmington job
every single time.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
I it I couldn't agree more.
So you're saying um you wouldn'tgo to an asteroid and drill if
you could drill 30 minutes fromhome.
SPEAKER_02 (38:20):
Yes, if I can drill 30 minutes from home, I'm not
going to an asteroid because uhI don't think I can get logs on
an asteroid.
I can get uh you know, andthey're gonna tell me it's
horrible things too.
They're gonna say, oh yeah, it'siron.
Right?
Well, great.
SPEAKER_01 (38:37):
That's gonna drill fabulous.
Iron pyrite, I think, is what uhwhat we get into.
I uh I want to read this that'sline.
So after he goes, you know,drilling is a science, it's an
art.
I'm a third generation driller,doing it all my life, and I
still haven't gotten it allfigured out.
Goes on.
(38:58):
I sent, I assume you sent me forme because somebody told you I
was the best.
Well, I'm only the best becauseI work with the best.
You don't trust the men you'reworking with, you're as good as
dead.
Now you want to send these boysinto space, fine.
I'm sure they are goodastronauts, but they don't know
(39:20):
jack about drilling.
SPEAKER_02 (39:25):
Well again, but I I agree with one thing, there's
one thing I agree with what hesaid, right?
Anyone who tells you they're thebest, run.
Run.
If someone else tells you thatguy's the best, that's fine.
(39:46):
But if anyone in constructionsays, yep, I'm the best, uh, and
by the way, every jewelerbelieves they're the best.
Uh I can prove it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
I have proof right here.
This is gonna make people wantto go watch the video portion um
from Mrs.
Brooks fourth grade class.
SPEAKER_00 (40:16):
Oh no.
Can you see it?
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
You are a well geothermal drill master.
SPEAKER_02 (40:31):
Okay.
Now I've been validated I I do Ido ab I do like that you got the
Mrs.
Brooks fourth grade class badgeof approval, except that what
they showed in that picture washot rock geothermal.
(40:55):
So did you really explain itproperly?
SPEAKER_01 (40:59):
Oh, now you're now you're challenging me, and I
love this.
So, all right, Dave.
This is the back of the card.
Because we did talk a little hotrock, but not a lot.
And uh boom.
(41:20):
They wrote, I love science.
SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
Okay, now that I can get now, now is that not great?
That's fine.
I just had to question your uhand apparently Alicia and
Rachel, uh, you know, they gotwhat you were laying down
because I see their signaturesthere.
But then all in all, you know,I'm pretty now I'm now I'm happy
(41:47):
with what you did.
But what the other side, man, itwas it, it was, I thought for
sure that maybe you had jumpedfrom our normal cold rock and
have become a a hot rock guru uhsomehow that I was unaware of.
I mean, you may have.
SPEAKER_01 (42:07):
I mean, you're you are you're rangy, but uh I uh I
did get to inadvertently, and Ifind myself in these situations
many times lately, or my time myentire career.
Um last year I got to be part ofProject Inner Spaces Geo
(42:30):
project.
So I got to go to Texas AM andtalk with all the rest of the
geothermal drillingprofessionals, and I was one of
few geoexchange heating andcooling.
You know, they wanted to talkpower generation and high
pressure, high temp.
And I have some background inthat.
So it was fun.
(42:51):
Thank you, Halliburton andBayreuth.
And um I've been sitting on thispanel, you know, let's talk
about oil field drillers anddrilling asteroids and oil field
drillers drilling other things.
You know, I'm sitting on thispanel with um a working group,
not a panel, with the IADC, theInternational Association of
(43:11):
Drilling Contractors, and theythey do some great stuff and
they have a well-controlledschool.
And that team has made job sitessafe and has put a certificate
program together so that peopleunderstand well control.
They they are now doinggeothermal well control, and so
geothermal well control, they'regoing to talk about all the bad
(43:35):
things that can happen in ageothermal well.
And they've classified thesewells and um geoexchange is what
they're going by.
So heating and cooling,geoexchange, geothermal versus
power generation or hydrothermalor hot rock.
Um they're getting lumpedtogether, and that's why we're
(43:57):
busy right now, is because big Gand little G for the the big uh
Buffoon O'Bill, you know,they're they're all one.
And um the discussion came upyou do not have well control
without a diverter and blowoutpreventer.
(44:19):
And it gets better because a oiland gas professional in the
state of Michigan jumped on thecall one day, not knowing
anybody else was from the stateof Michigan on there, and uh
made a statement about how it'sthe wild west, and um we need we
need these risk matrix andcontrol measures in place.
(44:43):
I fully agree.
What I didn't agree with wassuddenly saying that our great
industrial drilling companies,geothermal, water well drillers,
geotechnical drillers, miningprofessionals, everybody you've
been teaching.
How long have you been teachingthem, Dave?
Uh 16 years.
(45:04):
16 years.
How often in 16 years in ourdiscussions, we've talked about
well control, we talk aboutvolatile atmospheres, we talk
about the dangers and looking atthe risk matrix.
And there, every rig ought tohave a four-gas meter, or now
today, you know, it's just aseasy to get a five-gas.
(45:25):
And we should be very cognizant,especially H2S and all the
geotechnical and environmentalstuff we do around refineries
and plants and that.
But to say that geo-exchangegeothermal, that forever we went
300 feet, and then we went 500feet, and suddenly 800, and now
(45:46):
they're talking 1600 feet in thestate of Michigan.
Oh, you better have a flame tobe able to flare off that
methane we're going toencounter.
And you better have all thecontrol measures in place,
because frankly, we have afootprint to do that, right?
Am I going to be able to do thatin a dense urban area in your?
(46:09):
How can you teach this, Dave?
SPEAKER_02 (46:12):
Uh the short answer is you really can't, however,
right?
Um I I'm not a I'm not anengineer.
But I question myself, do weneed to do sixteen hundred foot
(46:37):
geothermal holes?
Does it make sense?
Now the the fact that you candesign it, great.
My concern is the uh the theprecision it takes to be able to
uh uh install loops at thosedepths and those.
(47:00):
I don't think we need blowoutprotectors and all of that.
We do an awful lot of uh youknow 2,000 and 2,500 foot water
well for municipality withoutblowout protectors, right?
You don't need a blowoutprotector uh for that unless
history shows that you shouldhave something like that in the
(47:24):
area, in which case you shouldnot be planning a geothermal job
that deep there, right?
It comes back to planning again,but um there does need to be new
SOPs put together for if I'mgonna go that deep, the
precision it's gonna take tomake sure we don't shut off
(47:45):
those loops, uh, you know, pinchthem or or blow them out on the
bottom because of uh hydrostaticpressure, uh, because you know,
uh in case you you need to go touh a little bit of school, some
of the drillers, you know, wedon't we didn't go to school for
any of this, right?
(48:06):
Uh so you learned on the joblike a lot of guys.
Well, the way to find out thatyou didn't get that right is not
when all of a sudden the systemfails.
Because I got a lot of time inin that.
But think about if we wind upwith a a hole that's relatively
(48:29):
dry, and we put that geothermalloop in at 1500 feet, it what is
the what is the burst pressurefor that material depends on
what they've they spec for thematerial, and then we have to
make sure as we're grouting thatthat we're bringing the fluid
inside and outside the loop upat the same level so that we can
(48:53):
protect it against eitherblowing it out or shutting it
off, because with water, everywhat 2.31 feet is one PSI.
But now when we go grout, whichis so much heavier, it might be
a PSI for every three-quarterfoot, right?
Or every foot and a quarter,depends on what the specific
gravity is.
So now we've got to be able toplay that game as we're grouting
(49:18):
to make sure, but we can't fillthat loop uh up a hundred
percent because if we do, now wecan blow it out at the bottom
before we ever get grout to itbecause the pressures that we're
putting on, you know, thinkabout it, it's just like going
down the at the bottom of apool.
The pressure that changes onyour ear, the same thing is
(49:38):
happening to the loop uh at thebottom of the hole.
So what is the what is thatpressure at 1500 feet?
We're looking at we're lookingat over 600 pounds of pressure,
right?
So now we have to counteractthat with the grout, and it just
is gonna take some a little bitof knowledge and a little bit of
(50:01):
uh of SOPs and retraining thecrews to where you don't do the
same thing every time.
You're gonna have to say, Hey,where's our water level?
Right, so I know what we're whatwe're submerging in.
We you know now it becomes moreprecision drilling, uh, like
(50:23):
anything.
Whenever we increase in depth,we increase in complication,
right?
Uh, and that's on all drillingeverywhere.
When you increase in depth indepth, you're gonna increase the
complication of proper finishingof the well.
SPEAKER_01 (50:41):
It's it's tough.
Um, everything you said, youjust hit the nail on the head,
and it's been a wild ride inyour 16 years of teaching
geothermal 16 years ago.
Um, I was designing, I wasn'tdesigning, I was field testing
(51:04):
thermally enhanced groutes andworking with both states, and we
were putting two loops in onehole, you know, and going to 400
feet.
And um, you know, the thediscussions were well, they want
us 500 feet.
And again, we got into thediscussion of all right, cool.
(51:25):
Does everybody have dual actionpiston grouters now?
Um, mix 111 came out at 72%solids.
You know, we were trying to putMix 111 down a hole, or we were
trying to do one 50-pound bag ofbentonite and 400 pounds of
sand, you know, and like waterquantity and quality and pumping
(51:49):
time and trimmy size.
People freaking out, well, youwant me to go to an intercourt
of trimming?
You know, like uh, and here weare.
Cool.
Can we get to that depth?
Sure.
Are you getting to that depth inan adequate production time?
Because we we have thisdiscussion many times over, and
(52:13):
um I can drill 1500 feet a dayin the many areas of the Great
Lakes State if it's three,500-foot holes.
I'm not drilling one 1500-foothole, even if we want to look at
all of the great um pressreleases out there that say
(52:35):
they're there, they just brokethe drilling record in feet.
Those are 2,500 horsepower rigswith a staff of 35 people, no
different than what Bruce Willissaid in here about um, I'm only
the best because I work with thebest.
(52:58):
And they we trust each other andwe keep ourselves safe.
And so um I want oil-filledtechnology in geothermal.
And I I our advancements, um,including everything that's come
out so far, and coil tubing rigsare a new generation of what
we're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (53:18):
I was gonna say that that that's the game changer for
us is the coil tubing rigs.
But you know, we first off, isthere an there before we can get
widely implemented, there has tobe projects for them that make
sense because the costs are whatthey are, right?
(53:39):
Coal tubing rigs, right?
And so we really need to start,you know, looking at things in a
in a in a light, it a lot oftimes the tail wags a dog in
this in this industry, right?
You're gonna be hard pressed tofind a contractor that wants to
(53:59):
go buy a coil tubing rig on theoff chance that the projects are
gonna be there for them.
The projects kind of gotta comefirst, but they can't really
afford to do the projects unlessthey have someone to drill it.
SPEAKER_01 (54:12):
So right tool, right tool for the right application.
But the the reality is as welook at scaling, and we've
tossed out many differentnumbers with the Geothermal
Drillers Association andwhatnot, going back in
recruitment.
And to hit 2050 goals, we needlike 65,000 drill rigs drilling
(54:35):
600 holes a year for the next 24and a half years, which means if
I have 65,000 new drill rigs outthere, I have 180 or 200,000 new
employees.
Like not to mention, and wetalked about this last week, um,
(54:57):
the drill, the water wellindustry just at 10 and a half
million dollars worth ofrevenue.
So they're busy.
And uh full circle back to addin surface casing and a
sophisticated blowout preventer,and now build them to scale so
that they're reasonably priced,so that they are a safety
(55:19):
mechanism we can implement, orput the risk matrix at hand.
But I drill 3,600-foot wells inSouth Florida into the Lower
Floridian, and we don't havewell control on those.
There are plenty of deep holesout there, and well control
(55:41):
designed appropriately, hasestablished surface casing.
So once we get done cementedestablished surface casing, what
is my cost per foot to drillthat?
But what is my lateral cost perfoot to tie that in?
(56:02):
Because let's think about this,Dave.
I I gotta finish that hole, Igotta remove that surface casing
on surface with my blowoutpreventer, have everything
sealed.
But when my tie-in crew comesin, what did my cost per bore to
get it to six feet below thesurface?
(56:23):
Like, can you imagine?
SPEAKER_02 (56:25):
No, no, it's gonna be it's going to be relatively
high.
And unless there is some sort ofmechanism that's saying that
this is the way you have to go,it's gonna it's gonna do this a
similar thing possibly to someof the cold rock.
Uh residentially, it will not beviable anymore.
(56:49):
But then again, on top of it, uhuh residentially, you know, how
viable is heating oil out east,right?
That doesn't make any senseeither, right?
SPEAKER_01 (57:00):
So um I'm just saying from a standpoint of
cutting a hole, you know, righttrenching, making a trench big
enough that now I can get downthere with a concrete saw,
right?
And then after I get done withthe concrete saw, I have to cut
that surface casing without it.
SPEAKER_02 (57:22):
You can chip the concrete possibly, but yeah, all
in all, yeah, it's you've you'vejust taken your tie and crew and
you've probably increased thenumbers on your tie-in crew,
you've increased the by far thetime that they tie in, right?
Um so really what we what weneed to find.
(57:47):
Well, and even beyond that, letme let me think back on this a
little bit.
We also then have to possibly,and that depends on the area.
Now the design of the of thesystems is going to change
because you're no longer uh downto the rock, you're no longer
(58:08):
tying into the formation becauseyou're tying into the you're
tying into casing.
And uh, so then we need to usethermally enhanced cementatious
grout to be able to put thatthere's a lot of things that
that would have to possiblychange, and it may only be a few
feet that they have to change,but but I think that's it's a
(58:31):
wholesale change in the designsof the project, how long the
projects will take.
Um I think there's gotta be abetter engineering solution to
what we're talking about forwell control for these kind of
(58:54):
things.
Um and it might just be that youhave to look at the area that
you're in and not and not uh notplan to go uh deep enough that
we're gonna need to use thatextensive of well control.
Because we have to be uh we haveto be efficient or or this this
(59:15):
industry can't can't continue.
SPEAKER_01 (59:18):
I I I see it.
We need the risk matrix, youknow, and I remember calling you
in the in the middle of thisdiscussion and being like, hey,
how do we come to a similar riskmatrix as what we have for
trenching?
When do you need an engineeredsystem versus when do you need
just benching versus soilclassification?
(59:41):
You know, all of thosecomponents.
And we have to make it umexecutable and that somebody can
be the competent person on sitebecause we cannot over engineer
these systems.
And I think we'll have somesystems out there that do this,
and they'll be good.
And uh it will be a smallerfootprint because every engineer
(01:00:03):
right now all they see is morevertical feet.
So what if I lose 50 feet tocasing, I have 1550 feet of
vertical.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:12):
But that but that probably means that you you over
drilled it.
Right.
But I I understand it is the thethe temptation as the footprints
we have the working getssmaller, the temptation to put
more vertical depth in theseloops, but it's always like you
(01:00:36):
said, it's always got to beokay.
Does this does this make sense?
Just because it'll heat thebuilding, right?
Doesn't make it uh make sense orsafe.
I can heat your building with amini nuclear reactor out of a
sub, it doesn't make sense forme to do it, right?
(01:00:59):
So are we because you know we'reso in enamored with that we can
do it, we gotta we gotta startthinking, should we do it?
And you know, or it could simplybe the that we have to change,
uh okay, we have this footprintfor a vertical outside, and we
(01:01:24):
can only go 500 feet or 600 feetor a thousand feet there because
deeper than that it's gonna notbe practical.
Okay.
And then we have to startlooking at what are our what are
our options?
Because really, how much is howmuch are we can have a hybrid
(01:01:44):
system, right?
Where the geothermal systemsupplements a a tradition more
traditional system.
Um, there's a lot of ways youcould go with this.
I mean, as a as a driller, man,drill, drill, drill is what I
want to see, but at the sametime, I don't want engineers
(01:02:07):
experimenting killing people forone, but then on top of that,
killing the industry becausethey've over they've
overpromised, right?
And I guess that's maybe justbecause I'm more of a a realist
when it comes to this kind ofthing.
(01:02:29):
Uh, but I just I just don't seewhere that makes sense.
So you there are times when youwhen you told me that that's how
deep they want to go.
I know I'm not gonna let youtalk.
Uh when you told me that's howdeep they wanted to go on that
project where you after you, Ithink we were on the phone, you
hung up, Derek and I stood thereand were like, what and we
(01:02:52):
couldn't come up with why whywhy it made sense, but
obviously, you know, everythingdrilling is is case by case, but
like I said, it's it's it'sgonna change everything about
how you have to approach aproject is based on the geology
(01:03:13):
and the depth you want to go, soit's a scary thing.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:18):
And I want I want to leave this with this as we wrap
up that uh the world's greatestdriller, Harry Stamper, and uh
mad props to uh Bruce Willis inall of his roles, and you know
it's um it is sad to see youknow these these iconic
(01:03:42):
Hollywood action heroes, youknow, um become old, and we see
that they're not bulletproof asJohn McClain or Harry Stamper or
whatnot.
And I think this is the thequote for the industry right
now, and it starts with uh whenHarry's talking to NASA and he's
(01:04:03):
like, What's your contingencyplan?
He goes, I'm sure you got a teamof men sitting around somewhere
right now, just thinking shitup, and somebody backing them
up, and you're telling me youdon't have a backup plan?
You gotta have some sort ofbackup plan, right?
Billy Bob, we don't have abackup plan for this.
And this is the best that youcan do that the government, the
(01:04:27):
US government could come upwith.
I mean, you're NASA for cryingout loud.
You're you put a man on themoon, you're geniuses, you're
the guys thinking this stuff up.
Like we we can we can takescience and physics and I
welcome oil and gas into this, Iwelcome NASA into this, I
(01:04:48):
welcome every bit of what weunderstand as microsecond
reactions and developing thisindustry.
But at the end of the day, asmuch as I want more textbooks
and I want more advancement andvirtual reality and all of this,
(01:05:10):
it is a lot of fun to get thoseyoung individuals on the rig
platform or with the remote intheir hand and watch them get to
create a hole and discover theunknown.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:27):
Yeah, it's it it's rewarding.
Uh it's also it's also a littlehumbling.
I had a gentleman uh yesterdayuh who drew the short stick,
right?
I had that we were we had we hadgroups out grouting, but I
(01:05:50):
needed uh to go back and andpull casing and do some other
stuff uh for a hole and that I'dthat we had set down to rock and
we'd done some coring and so Ihad to remove all the core pipe
and all it wasn't really thatmuch stuff.
Um but you know after taking thethe uh the core adapter and all
(01:06:13):
that stuff off, and and hespinning case, and he's like, I
can't feel my forearms, and Ilaughed.
I go, Well, you only might haveanother 12 hours of this to do
someday, and he's like, I go,you'll you'll get stronger, or
you or you won't, but it's it'skind of fun that you know he
(01:06:36):
goes, is it always like this?
I'm like, well, yeah, there aretimes when I can't feel my
forearms, but it just takes alot longer before that happens.
Um, you know, you're gonnayou're gonna have those hard
days, but seeing people willingto willing to meet that
challenge, because he he wasbeat after that.
(01:06:57):
And I'm like, you okay?
And he's like, Yeah, I'm fine.
I appreciate the opportunity toto do it though, to see it.
And and I thought that was athat was a great response to
that.
I I appreciated the opportunityto do it, right?
And and so hopefully when hegets to the job, and I believe
(01:07:21):
he did wind up out with a uh uhI think he's out with a water
well company, uh starting nextweek.
And you know, he's gonna get achance to run a chain wrench an
awful lot.
Uh he'll get he'll get used toit, you know.
It but it's it's uh it's arewarding thing.
(01:07:44):
But with all with all the stuffgoing on, I'm excited.
And uh I always am interested tosee what what we're gonna do
next, right?
What is this next phase gonnabe?
Uh, you know, if you if you havea uh an idea or something you
(01:08:06):
want to discuss with Brock andI, or you you have have just got
off a project that like the oneswe're talking about, where you
approach something at a depth orin a way that that is not
standard and you want to discussit, you know, uh drop a line
(01:08:27):
because we would love to discussit.
Brock and I don't don't uhpretend that we're the only ones
that know anything about aboutanything.
Uh so you know if you could ifyou want to discuss why you
think that engineering uh deeperand deeper systems, and here's
how it can be handled, I wouldlove to have that discussion.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08:48):
I would too.
And I think uh that is a greatdiscussion.
And as you talk chain wrench andwhere do we go, and one of the
reasons why coil tubing is so umadvantageous right now is the
fact that we're not handlingtooling as much and that
repetitive stress injury, butI'm back to Harry Stamper, and
(01:09:12):
I'm only as good as the peoplethat are around me, and we need
to get to a point whereergonomics and um engineered
systems are removing us fromneeding that that type of
monotonous work.
And let's face it, as the oiland gas industry transitions
(01:09:34):
into um geoexchange geothermal,there's not that many drillers,
as there are a lot of reallygood people at working at
heights and tripping pipe.
And that's because that rig, 75%of its time is putting pipe in
the hole or pulling pipe out ofthe hole.
You know, it's so the the ideathat we're just gonna go into
(01:09:57):
normal Illinois and run holes asfast as we can, you know, it it
goes back to that that testpilot running that SS 135 and
listening to the bit chatter.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10:14):
Yeah, yeah.
You were on an SS 135 on thatproject.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10:19):
Uh, there was the SS 135 on that project.
It was a short wheelbase, it wasa sweet little rig.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10:26):
Nice, nice.
So, yeah, I had an SS 135 uh atRocket Soul.
That was one of our rigs.
So uh anyway, that that's uhdiscussion for a different day.
So uh it's been a pleasure,Brock.
I I'm glad we're back doingthis.
It it was a fun discussion thismorning, and uh no Wilson.
(01:10:51):
He's Wilson, he's here, right?
I just finished my coffee beforewe started talking about.
Which uh, which son is the signfor far under or wants uh that's
on, but and far under far underis uh is no longer, however, uh
(01:11:12):
there's a new band being formedcorrect right now.
Uh some of the members of FarUnder are in the band, but uh
Far Under, I think was has beenlike about a year or so since he
said he didn't have time for itanymore.
And then shortly after that, youknow, he trained a replacement,
(01:11:35):
and then shortly after that, thewhole thing fell apart for him
for those guys.
So some of the people in FarUnder, the drummer and the uh, I
think the the lead guitarist aregonna be part of this new band.
My my son said he's gonna playuh uh guitar on the new band,
not bass.
He's looking for a bass playercapable of playing the stuff
(01:11:56):
that he had put together, uhthat which sounds odd from what
he was telling me.
He goes, it's not normal stuff,it's stuff that you really gotta
get into.
So we'll see what this new thingsounds like.
Uh, I'm sure it will be heavy.
That's all I can tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12:15):
Well, I love it.
Thanks, Dave, for your time, anduh we'll see you all in another
week.
All right, bye, everybody.
Thanks.
Thank you for listening toDrillercast.
Please follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform or
find us on social media.
Next, connect with us at thedriller.com.
(01:12:36):
There's all kinds of greatcontent there, and it's your
best way to continue thisdiscussion or initiate a new
one.
Come on the show, have a debatewith us.
The intro music is provided byDave Bowers Sons band Far Under.
Now, for the legal disclaimer,the views and opinions expressed
on Thrillercast, the Brock andDave Podcast, the bad podcast,
(01:13:01):
are those of Brock Yordy andDave Bowers, along with the
opinions expressed by thesehosts, their guests, other
creators, drillers, helpers, andauthors.
And they do not necessarilyreflect the official policy or
position of our employers orcompanies, groups, and
(01:13:22):
associations we volunteer towork with or BMP media.
Any content provided by ourhosts, guests, bloggers,
authors, drillers, helpers,field technicians, grouters, mud
pan shovelers are of their ownopinion and are not intended to
malign any religion, ethnicgroup, club, organization,
(01:13:44):
company, individual, anyone, oranything, even that pesky sticky
clay.
We have the best intentions hereat DrillerCast, and just like in
drilling, sometimes theunexpected conditions arise,
creating genuine discussions.
Because yet again, nothing onthe driller cast is scripted.
Thanks everybody.
That's right.
This is a new episode, and weare really excited to be back.
You can find us bi weekly.
Head over to the driller.com forthe best content in the drilling
and construction industry.
Now please that awesome music byFar Under.
Let's go.
(00:39):
We've made three.
And the first two of the Brockand Dave podcast, the bad
podcast, trailer cast, are outthere and are doing quite well.
Gotten some good feedback on umhard hats versus helmets.
And the talking pay is is a bigdeal.
(01:01):
And this episode is dropping onHalloween.
And um there's a lot of spookythings going on out there in the
construction industry and in uhin community in general.
SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
So how are you doing, Dave?
I'm doing well.
I don't know about spookyeverywhere, but we've noticed uh
you know a demand that we hadn'tseen uh for a long time.
We just recently have uh addedseven brand new uh drooling
(01:40):
apprentices this time of year,which almost never happens,
right?
So uh I think for our area therein Chicago, it it brings us over
30 for this year, which you knowthat's brand new people on top
of the on top of the people thatwe have.
And after uh the evaluation,which is two weeks, was done, we
(02:06):
placed all of them and reallyhave already been told by
February they want another one.
I could have probably used morepeople for this one, uh, but we
used the projections that uhthat were provided to us, what
the industry thought that theycould could handle, but I could
easily have put three or morefour other people to work right
(02:30):
away um in new careers indrilling that is gonna uh you
know, not jobs in drilling,careers in drilling.
They they've been they've beenlaid out a uh a course
curriculum and a learningschedule, and and we're gonna
help them with that.
And it's an exciting time.
Uh, you know, I I have neverseen it this busy all over this
(02:58):
at this time, which is a goodthing, right?
It's a good thing.
A little scary though, becauseit's scary because can we
maintain this?
We need we need to continue tomove forward.
I recently had a uh had acontingent of um uh lawmakers at
our facility that we did somestuff for geothermal uh that are
(03:22):
working on a new bill inIllinois to promote geothermal
and to uh hopefully uh you knowmirror what they have in in uh
New York in order to drive thisindustry forward.
So it's an exciting time.
Uh as long as we can maintainit, we can build careers.
(03:43):
We just don't want to we don'twant to put people in a in a
career that then all of a suddenuh dries up some.
Uh but we're gonna have itsconstruction, we're gonna have
those pits and valleys, but uhhopefully we can ride as many
highs as we can by beingproactive.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
It's it is an exciting time.
And you know, the the lastepisode we talked about the
importance of pay, and you knowwhat?
The prevailing wage aspect ofthe geothermal ITCs, along with
many states across the country,including starting with New York
(04:25):
with Governor Hokel, who did theThermal Energy Networks and Jobs
Act.
And uh the way we're looking atthis as a family sustaining wage
is fantastic because we're we'recreating sustainable energy with
people that can continue to doit.
And I um you graduated seven newapprentices.
(04:50):
I talked to 75 fourth gradersthis week, and um it was three
science blocks, and I was givenuh just under an hour, and so
you know, we we teach a lot, anduh had a couple takeaways from
this.
First, I was like, okay, howmany slides do I need for you
(05:14):
know just under an hour withquestions?
And at first I did 30, and thenI was like, you know what, I'm
gonna put some filler in therebecause I'm worried they're just
gonna glaze over.
So I put 45.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Can I guess what you needed?
What I'm gonna say 10.
I'm gonna say 10 because thequestions are going to be uh
substantial at fourth grade.
SPEAKER_01 (05:42):
I you know what?
So Mrs.
Brooks uh Winchell Elementary,she is teaching in energy
section right now from thebeginning of the year, and
they're talking about afictitious town called Ergstown
having blackouts, and thecurriculum uh that is working is
talking about renewable energy.
(06:02):
And as my daughter has come homeand talking talked about
different sections, um, they'vetalked a lot about wind and
solar, and then they talk alittle about hydro.
And so I went, huh, Brill, arethey talking about geothermal?
And she's like, No, that's whatyou do, that's not renewable
(06:24):
energy.
SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
Well, you know what it that's a microcosm of um the
the outlook of the generalpublic is that they don't
understand that it is arenewable energy because
although it's electricity thatruns it, the efficiencies are so
high that that we're actuallyyou know uh using you know a
(06:53):
kilowatt of energy and maybedelivering the equivalent of
three or four kilowatts ofenergy to the to the area.
So, you know, it is a renewableenergy, but that it tells it
tells you because that teacherdidn't see it that way, that
(07:13):
that the population as a wholehears the the name, but equates
that with maybe hot rock energy,or just they don't know what it
means.
SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
It's it's the curriculum.
And I'll tell you what, I don'tknow who will end up listening
to us on and we I don't know howmany times we preface this part
of the nightmare.
Um I scoured, you know, and I Imeet people at conferences all
the time that go, I'm doing Kthrough 12 curriculum.
I'm talking about geothermal andrenewable energies to K through
(07:50):
12.
And I think we have a lot ofupper middle school through high
school discussions, and you canget into some pretty broad
things.
But I went to the majorassociations looking to see what
they have, and I know ChristineHofer kicks butt at New York Geo
and talks with the Bose studentsand whatnot, but uh J Egg has
(08:13):
the the coloring book and somevery uh great foundational
stuff.
Um, but I needed somethingfourth grade science with a
fictitious town called Erbstownthat's having rolling blackouts.
And um hey, I just built it.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Brock, what's the geology of Erbstown?
SPEAKER_01 (08:37):
You know, that was a question asked by a fourth
grader.
Yeah, Brock, but uh you know,the sun shines everywhere and
the wind blows everywhere, anduh, you know, we we get this.
Um how is this geothermal gonnawork?
And what's funny as as I'm alsotalking with because of uh the
(09:01):
big buffoonal bill that shiftedthe um IROA IRA to the new
geothermal, new normal thatwe're seeing as Damby Lyon is
talking about hey, we're comingup with leasing programs for
builders in residential homes.
And I I am involved in a in aprogram for you know geothermal
(09:22):
as a service right now as wellon my my big kid job.
And I said to uh little Billy,and that's not his name, but uh,
we're keeping these individualsuh in their wholesome world.
I said, This works everywhere.
And I I literally had an ahamoment because I literally just
(09:44):
had the same discussion withvery rich financially smart
people that I go with.
You were able to sell 400 acresof solar panels or 90 windmills
where the sun shines sometimesand the wind blows sometimes,
(10:06):
but uh 15 feet below thesurface, it's 52 degrees or 47
degrees, or if we're down inTexas 65 or 70 degrees, and it's
been that way for severalmillion years.
SPEAKER_02 (10:26):
Well, the the thing the thing people don't
understand is just the batteryconcept, right?
The earth is a solar battery,period, full stop.
The the energy from the sun isabsorbed by the earth and is
stored.
All we're doing is accessing it,right?
And then learning how to turnthat into either heating and
(10:50):
cooling, you know.
As long as I have a temperaturedifference, and then we're
already using what you alreadyhave free on, or um, and by the
way, I didn't hit thetemperature difference bell
right there.
That was my phone.
I'm about to shut the uh thesound off.
(11:14):
This this, by the way, is infact a amateur uh well, I
shouldn't say amateur.
This is a professional podcastrun by two amateurs at
podcasting, professionaldrillers, amateur podcasters,
right?
I know I bet the different.
I think at this point I'm aprofessional podcaster, and uh
(11:34):
nobody believes I'll give youprofessional podcaster, I will
give me amateur co-host.
How's that?
No, just because you know theyalso won't probably uh I'm gonna
have to really work, and I and Ilove doing like stuff with young
kids, but because of spending asmuch time as I have with adults,
(12:00):
um I I really have toconcentrate if I'm with young,
young kids.
I never swore the entire time mykids were young, and if you
swore in front of them, itpissed me off.
Now I'm the one that has to bebiting my tongue because I
almost in it, and so I'verecently found that oh, hey,
(12:25):
you've become a little more likeyou were in the field and a
little less like you were athome.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
You know, I um I didn't have any Freudian slips,
and uh I once in front of themountain states uh water well
drilling conference teaching umrecruitment and 20 and then
hiring 21st century employees,and this this class I taught was
(12:57):
2017-2018.
And I I said the fudge word as auh as talking about a young man
having his hand smashed and whatthat meant to a company, and I I
said it in a comical likemanner, but I had to write a
(13:23):
letter and apologize.
And um funny enough, when Iapologized to the entire
association, everybody's like,we don't remember you saying it,
but one individual did, and theyneeded to know that I I
overstepped my bounds by sayingit.
Um, I think they're also thesame individual that would have
(13:46):
rather been in a uh class onvariable speed pumps and not
listening to some 37-year-oldkid at the time talking about
how we need to hire allindividuals, not just you know,
the same traditional individualswe've been hiring ourselves.
SPEAKER_02 (14:07):
Well, it's it's really hard to find those same
traditional individuals becauseour our economy is driving many
of them uh away from what theytraditionally did, right?
Uh farming is much, much harderto to do now, especially under
(14:29):
our recent uh uh changes in inwhat's going on.
So if there's no if there's nofuture in it, they don't want to
continue in that kind of work.
So they are available, but nowwe have to make this uh
attractive.
(14:50):
And that's the that's the hardthing.
We we really have to make again,and I know this is a broken
record coming from me.
We have to show them the careerand show them what advantages we
have coming to this industry,you know.
Um we uh they are out there, butthere's just as good a candidate
(15:13):
who are just as hungry fromeverywhere else in the country.
There's uh I have a couplefemale uh apprentices that are
cornerstones for their companynow, right?
I've got I've got some gentlemenfrom the uh you know from rough
(15:36):
areas in the inner city thatwork for uh you know traditional
water well companies, you know,all that they have to be able to
do is get to the job, and that'sthat's one of the problems we
have is that uh when we recruitfrom the inner city is that uh
(16:00):
we don't typically you can't getpublic transportation to the
job, so you have to have yourown car, which a lot of times
there's nowhere to put a car inthe city.
Uh, so it doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Well, what does it cost?
Like, let's talk nightmares,it's Halloween.
What is parking cost for aconstruction worker for a day?
SPEAKER_02 (16:23):
Well, parking cost for a day uh in our area a lot
of times is uh worked into thebudget of the job.
Uh but what I'm talking about issomebody who's got to own their
vehicle but lives in uh an areathat doesn't have the
(16:44):
infrastructure except for on thestreet.
And then when it's on when youhave a vehicle on the street,
uh, you know, you don't know insome of those areas, you know,
how can you afford to have anice car on the street?
You probably can't, and then youhave to rent a garage or
something in order to be able toput it's it becomes a another
(17:04):
hardship for them to be able todo it, so it becomes a difficult
recruiting tool.
And so when you do run intothose people that hey, I can get
do you have good reliabletransportation?
One of our one of the basicquestions that we have to ask in
our initial interview, do youhave reliable transportation?
(17:27):
Right, and it makes sensethough, because what's the one
thing a contractor cannot abide?
Someone who's not there on timeor just doesn't show up because
you know, hey, I had a I had aflat or my my cars broke down,
you know.
So the I don't have I'm not Idon't have an answer for that as
(17:53):
far as how we fix it, but butit's a consideration that we
have to look, okay, when we arerecruiting from these other
areas, that it's hard.
But I've got some guys that camefrom those areas and still live
there that you know have seenthe benefit of you know working
(18:14):
for one of these companies andyou know being able to work
towards being able to move outof that area because it's
extraordinarily expensive tolive in the city.
I know that's a hard thing foryou to understand, but even when
you're living in one of thoseareas that's that's uh run down,
(18:35):
it's extremely expensive.
So getting out of there comparedto you know growing up where
where I grew up or where yougrew up is what way more
expensive than it was when wewere growing up.
But in towards the cities iseven is even worse.
And so to move out now, you needto find a decent job to even get
(18:59):
an apartment now.
Apartments cost more than whatmy initial mortgage, and that's
for a one-room apartment.
My initial mortgage was lessmoney than what than what some
of these people are paying forapartments.
Heck, some of the car paymentsfor a newer vehicle are up
around where uh you know wherewe used to have housing for
(19:21):
that.
So so I was shocked the otherday.
Somebody told me that they'reyou know they they were paying
on a you know basic basic car,like not even a like fancy car,
not sports car, not a big car,small car, and they were, you
know, oh it's my payment is sixhundred dollars a month, plus
(19:41):
insurance, plus and I'm like,how I I don't understand how at
the wages that we are offering,how are we how are we really
gonna work somebody out of that,you know, uh more hours, more
whatever, but it it becomes adifficult choice, especially
(20:07):
when you can choose the fastfood restaurant a mile away for
similar money, and then now I'mnot burning all that fuel.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
It's a yes, yes, and this is the same discussion we
just had.
You know, we we talk family sussustaining wages, and um you're
absolutely right.
Uh a reliable vehicle andinsurance, and then you you're
in the third largest city in thecountry.
(20:37):
Um, when you get into parking ortraffic or fuel, the amount of
road time, like those all haveto be considered, you know, or
you go work for buckies, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Yeah, if there's a buckies buy it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
Yeah.
Um and it's that's the other endof it, you know.
In in the nightmare of we needmore workforce, as you're
talking about I've never heardof you saying we just graduated
seven in October when we surelyknow that we are in late
(21:22):
October, like slush, snow, ice,um, road conditions, like winter
is coming, and that you know,you're gonna get somebody just
started, and then we're gonnahave to slow down.
SPEAKER_02 (21:40):
Well, I guess from what we're seeing on some of the
companies that are that arehiring these people, right?
Uh they're not seeing aslowdown.
They're seeing where they haveto stop, they'll stop.
Other than that, the theschedules are not gonna let them
stop, and the amount of work isis pretty high.
(22:02):
So, because you know, rememberwe service the entirety of
industrial drilling, you know,so it's geothermal, it's
geotechnical, it's uhconstruction drilling, it's
dewatering, right?
So we've we've seen uh all ofthis stuff.
Will there be a slowdown forsome other institutions?
(22:25):
Sure.
Uh the geotechnical side,though, doesn't believe there's
gonna be a slowdown.
They've actually said if wecould provide it, they'd they'd
add crews, and you know that'sthat's crazy dog.
Plus, there's a lot of travelinggoing on too.
So, you know, some of thesecompanies know they don't want
to they they want to keep theirmachines busy, so they might
(22:50):
look for some work down south orsome some other stuff and to be
able to to keep things rolling.
Because once, you know, likeanyone, once you get somebody
trained that you like, layingthem off is a bad idea because
if I have to lay you off, what'sto say that somebody who has
(23:12):
other work doesn't snatch youup, and then there's no
guarantee you wind up back withme, right?
So the more you know, if if allyou're looking for is a warm
body, that's not a problem.
But if you're looking forsomebody building a career
understanding what you guys doand helping your company
forward, you can't afford to dothat.
(23:34):
So so I think a lot of them arelooking at more long-term
solutions of hey, we're gettingquality candidates through here
through this system, and wewanna we wanna try and keep them
busy as long as we can so thatwe don't put the resources in
(23:55):
training them the way we wantthings done and how this system
works for our company, and thenhave to worry about training
somebody else next year becausewe laid them off and they went
to work for our competitor,right?
Uh, so we see a lot of thiscoming.
They've already told us theyneed more people in February
(24:16):
that we're going to have to run,we're going to have to run
another evaluation in Februaryso that when weather starts to
break in March, they can addcrews.
So, I mean, it's a it's a greatproblem to have that I'm re
retooling all of our schedulingthat would that we've
(24:38):
traditionally done because youknow I have other we do have
other things that theinstructors do.
You know, we do stuff with thewith the heavy equipment
operators for safety classes.
I teach the case on classes, wehave some other stuff to do, but
drilling is my primary thing.
So, you know, we're going towe're gonna have to shift our
(24:59):
schedules all around to figureout okay, this new this new
reality we're in, how do we meetit?
Right?
Because it's it's on us to tomake sure we give quality
candidates to the contractor,right?
And so we're gonna do that comehell or high water.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
It's um it's a good problem to have.
And you know, as we've rolledinto the intro and we've thought
about workforce as a nightmare,I uh I for years have wanted to
have this discussion with you.
And I think we're we're finallyable to on Halloween.
(25:37):
Um not a very scary movie,unless unless you really start
thinking about it.
You know, do you know what movieI'm talking about or I'm
thinking about, don't you?
SPEAKER_02 (25:49):
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.
You're you're not you're notflying me to an asteroid, are
you?
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, and we have that like 3-1A Atlas
asteroid flying by us right now.
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
Yeah, we do, and um I'm not sure if we could catch
it because you know uh let'stalk reality here.
It's moving faster than whatphysics say it should, right?
And that's and and I'm uh let mepreface this.
(26:29):
Dave Bowers is not anastrophysicist.
Dave Bowers can barely drones.
I do fly drones, but they don'tmove that fast.
Dave Bowers has seen things, isall all he's seen.
But if it's moving faster, howare we catching it?
Right?
We're not catching it to put ato put a uh drill rig on it.
I'm I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
No, um and uh I love this conversation because I
forever I would say I'm too.
SPEAKER_02 (26:58):
It's your favorite movie, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
First, everything until they land and pull a drill
out is my favorite movie, andthen and then I just have so
many questions, and um thetheaters I did too.
I started the drive-in movietheater with my girlfriend at
the time, Lena Dussel.
SPEAKER_02 (27:22):
Uh I saw well, I saw it in the theaters, I believe,
with my father, mother, and mywife, if I remember.
SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
Because it was summer blockbusters.
SPEAKER_02 (27:37):
We we don't have that anymore.
The only I can only think of twomovies I saw with my parents and
my wife.
The other one is Titanic.
Anyway, so I saw this with myand as soon as the the drilling
stuff started happening, I'mlike, you've got to be kidding
me.
This is the least realisticdrilling that I've ever seen in
(28:02):
my life.
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
Uh it's it's funny because it's zero atmosphere and
it's moving, and I don't knowwhat the tubing is that's coming
out of the hole as they'redrilling.
Like, are we drilling reverse?
Are we drilling with air?
Like what is it a kick?
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
Like, what what is the kick?
This is this is this is was whatwas breaking my brain, is that
we were we were drilling andexhausting uh exhausting
(28:44):
cutting.
So that leads you to believethere's some sort of compressed
air source, compressed nitrogensource, air source.
Look at the size of the machine.
There's nothing else hooked toit, right?
It's not pulling a giant tank,right?
So it it cannot.
(29:06):
There is nothing to compress tomake what's going on go on,
right?
And that was just but there's nofluid, so it had to be some sort
of compress uh of gas media,right?
So to me, I could not come upwith uh and and just like you, I
think at that time at thatmoment, my uh my I could not
(29:32):
suspend my belief long enough tofinish this movie, right?
Because I'm like, they couldhave they should have done
something, right?
Because you can hammer all youwant, nothing's gonna come out
of the nothing's gonna it looklike a top hammer rig, which are
not known for real speed, by theway.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
It's it's great.
And it I love how our drilleregos are.
Like, nope, like the drilling'snot realistic enough on a
planet-killing asteroid.
Yet, we can believe from thebeginning of the movie that it
is easier to train a driller tobecome an astronaut than it is
(30:16):
for an astronaut to become adriller.
SPEAKER_02 (30:18):
They didn't train them to become astronauts.
They really didn't.
They told them they taught themhow to put a suit on, basically,
right?
That the astronauting part wasdone by astronauts, right?
Um, I would love to have theopportunity, uh, however, you
(30:39):
know, that also is somewhatunrealistic.
I believe you have to be inshape a little bit to withstand
the the G-forces of uh takeoff,re-entry, those things.
There's a reason that astronautsaren't you know shaped like me
or you, typically, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:02):
Oh, I I don't know.
It's uh it's hilarious.
And at the same time, when Ithink of recruitment, and I
think of the beginning of thatmovie, and I I actually have the
like Bruce Willis monologue inmy phone of um that what catches
(31:30):
me in the first like 20 minutes,you know.
Um we get past the the comicaloffshore stuff, and we get to
Bruce Willis and Billy BobThornton talking.
And uh Bruce Willis says, youknow, drilling is science, it is
(31:52):
a science, it's an art, youknow, and that's something we
talk about, right?
That that learned response,those microsecond adjustments.
And you as a a drillinginstructor and a drone pilot or
a a pilot with um earplanes andeverything else, like I have
(32:15):
always said that drilling isvery similar to being a pilot,
like a test pilot, not a not adragon rocket that mission
control controls the entire wayup, but you know, back to the
response.
SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
Here's the similarity, right?
Is that you're constantly ofthis is a similarity between
radio control, not with drones,but with with like radio control
aircraft that that don'tself-fly and uh drilling.
You're constantly having todecide what that next outcome
(33:01):
should be.
What what's going on now?
How do I correct it?
What's the next outcome, right?
Whether it be you're trying tofly, you know, just easy circles
or you're trying to flyaerobatics or whatever it is,
it's the same thing going on,and it's why uh you know, being
a an operator of a drill rig,where I learn I know what the
(33:24):
levers do, and being a drilleris a is a relatively long
process, and it really startsfrom the day you start running a
rig and ends about the timewhere you stop running a rig
because you're gonna constantlylearn there's constantly gonna
be something new, and you haveto interpret on very limited
(33:45):
information.
We don't have a we don't have auh a live camera at the bit,
right?
We've got uh drilling action,sound of the rig, the color of
the cutting, or the color of thefluid coming out if you're using
mud.
We've got what the you know, andwe're making decisions based on
that.
And my uh uh the speed that it'spenetrating, right?
(34:08):
All of those things, and we'remaking decisions on what to do.
Think about that first time youwent out on the on a rig.
Uh, I believe the the story goesthat you kind of buried it a
little bit trying to show howfast you could go, right?
SPEAKER_01 (34:22):
It wasn't my first time, that was just the first
time at the at the controls onthe platform.
SPEAKER_02 (34:27):
No, that's what I mean.
The first time that you were youwere the driller, right?
So I know what I'm doing, lookhow fast I can go.
And you know, we we tell peopleall the time that you know it's
it's really that a lot of timesfor most drilling, it's the
turtle in the hare, right?
If if you're rushing, bad'sgonna happen.
(34:51):
If you find a rhythm that youcan maintain over that entire
day, you're gonna get thingsdone.
And that's and that's the that'sthe real key.
It's the same thing flying,right?
If I'm if I'm trying to go fromone maneuver to the next
maneuver and I'm reacting to theaircraft, chances are we're
(35:17):
gonna have a crash.
Chances are we're gonna stick abit, chances are we're gonna
have a problem.
But if I'm not going over myabilities, so ahead of the
aircraft, right?
I'm not, I'm not uh uh what ishis name?
Jace, I believe.
Jace the ace is like the betright now the best aerobatic 3D
(35:42):
pilot for RC, right?
Uh whatever.
I just know his name, right?
His name is Jace.
I don't remember his last nameis.
Anyway, I'm not him.
If I try to fly like him, we'repicking sticks up, right?
Because I don't have theability.
I have the ability to do thingsthat that I know I can do as
long as I stay inside of myability and I don't let the
(36:07):
aircraft get ahead of me, whereI'm making uh I'm making
reactions to what it's doingrather than planning what it's
doing.
And and it's the same thingplanning a drill job, right?
Maybe that first hole on ageothermal job, even for an
(36:28):
experienced guy in badconditions, it can get ahead of
him, but it won't get ahead ofhim.
Has he studied logs of thatarea?
Has he worked in that areabefore?
Has he right?
That whole experience element,and if he does his homework,
chances are it's not going toget ahead of it.
However, the rest of the jobshould go relatively smooth,
(36:55):
except for something unforeseenthat he can't predict.
But those things become less andless as he does his homework.
Uh it's no different.
You and I did that job uh yearsago at uh Lasma.
I know that Lazma is horribledrilling, right?
(37:17):
And we so when we showed up, wehad all these contingencies.
That why are you bringing allthat?
Because I don't know.
I've been out here before, I'veseen so many different issues
happen here in Lasma.
So I had to plan for everycontingency, and we got the
(37:40):
project done, not as quickly asI would have liked, but the
project was finished, right?
Uh and all the all theparameters were met by the end
of the project.
Client was happy.
That's all that matters, right?
Now, if I have a choice betweena job in Lasma and a job in
(38:03):
Wilmington for the same money,I'm taking the Wilmington job
every single time.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
I it I couldn't agree more.
So you're saying um you wouldn'tgo to an asteroid and drill if
you could drill 30 minutes fromhome.
SPEAKER_02 (38:20):
Yes, if I can drill 30 minutes from home, I'm not
going to an asteroid because uhI don't think I can get logs on
an asteroid.
I can get uh you know, andthey're gonna tell me it's
horrible things too.
They're gonna say, oh yeah, it'siron.
Right?
Well, great.
SPEAKER_01 (38:37):
That's gonna drill fabulous.
Iron pyrite, I think, is what uhwhat we get into.
I uh I want to read this that'sline.
So after he goes, you know,drilling is a science, it's an
art.
I'm a third generation driller,doing it all my life, and I
still haven't gotten it allfigured out.
Goes on.
(38:58):
I sent, I assume you sent me forme because somebody told you I
was the best.
Well, I'm only the best becauseI work with the best.
You don't trust the men you'reworking with, you're as good as
dead.
Now you want to send these boysinto space, fine.
I'm sure they are goodastronauts, but they don't know
(39:20):
jack about drilling.
SPEAKER_02 (39:25):
Well again, but I I agree with one thing, there's
one thing I agree with what hesaid, right?
Anyone who tells you they're thebest, run.
Run.
If someone else tells you thatguy's the best, that's fine.
(39:46):
But if anyone in constructionsays, yep, I'm the best, uh, and
by the way, every jewelerbelieves they're the best.
Uh I can prove it.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
I have proof right here.
This is gonna make people wantto go watch the video portion um
from Mrs.
Brooks fourth grade class.
SPEAKER_00 (40:16):
Oh no.
Can you see it?
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
You are a well geothermal drill master.
SPEAKER_02 (40:31):
Okay.
Now I've been validated I I do Ido ab I do like that you got the
Mrs.
Brooks fourth grade class badgeof approval, except that what
they showed in that picture washot rock geothermal.
(40:55):
So did you really explain itproperly?
SPEAKER_01 (40:59):
Oh, now you're now you're challenging me, and I
love this.
So, all right, Dave.
This is the back of the card.
Because we did talk a little hotrock, but not a lot.
And uh boom.
(41:20):
They wrote, I love science.
SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
Okay, now that I can get now, now is that not great?
That's fine.
I just had to question your uhand apparently Alicia and
Rachel, uh, you know, they gotwhat you were laying down
because I see their signaturesthere.
But then all in all, you know,I'm pretty now I'm now I'm happy
(41:47):
with what you did.
But what the other side, man, itwas it, it was, I thought for
sure that maybe you had jumpedfrom our normal cold rock and
have become a a hot rock guru uhsomehow that I was unaware of.
I mean, you may have.
SPEAKER_01 (42:07):
I mean, you're you are you're rangy, but uh I uh I
did get to inadvertently, and Ifind myself in these situations
many times lately, or my time myentire career.
Um last year I got to be part ofProject Inner Spaces Geo
(42:30):
project.
So I got to go to Texas AM andtalk with all the rest of the
geothermal drillingprofessionals, and I was one of
few geoexchange heating andcooling.
You know, they wanted to talkpower generation and high
pressure, high temp.
And I have some background inthat.
So it was fun.
(42:51):
Thank you, Halliburton andBayreuth.
And um I've been sitting on thispanel, you know, let's talk
about oil field drillers anddrilling asteroids and oil field
drillers drilling other things.
You know, I'm sitting on thispanel with um a working group,
not a panel, with the IADC, theInternational Association of
(43:11):
Drilling Contractors, and theythey do some great stuff and
they have a well-controlledschool.
And that team has made job sitessafe and has put a certificate
program together so that peopleunderstand well control.
They they are now doinggeothermal well control, and so
geothermal well control, they'regoing to talk about all the bad
(43:35):
things that can happen in ageothermal well.
And they've classified thesewells and um geoexchange is what
they're going by.
So heating and cooling,geoexchange, geothermal versus
power generation or hydrothermalor hot rock.
Um they're getting lumpedtogether, and that's why we're
(43:57):
busy right now, is because big Gand little G for the the big uh
Buffoon O'Bill, you know,they're they're all one.
And um the discussion came upyou do not have well control
without a diverter and blowoutpreventer.
(44:19):
And it gets better because a oiland gas professional in the
state of Michigan jumped on thecall one day, not knowing
anybody else was from the stateof Michigan on there, and uh
made a statement about how it'sthe wild west, and um we need we
need these risk matrix andcontrol measures in place.
(44:43):
I fully agree.
What I didn't agree with wassuddenly saying that our great
industrial drilling companies,geothermal, water well drillers,
geotechnical drillers, miningprofessionals, everybody you've
been teaching.
How long have you been teachingthem, Dave?
Uh 16 years.
(45:04):
16 years.
How often in 16 years in ourdiscussions, we've talked about
well control, we talk aboutvolatile atmospheres, we talk
about the dangers and looking atthe risk matrix.
And there, every rig ought tohave a four-gas meter, or now
today, you know, it's just aseasy to get a five-gas.
(45:25):
And we should be very cognizant,especially H2S and all the
geotechnical and environmentalstuff we do around refineries
and plants and that.
But to say that geo-exchangegeothermal, that forever we went
300 feet, and then we went 500feet, and suddenly 800, and now
(45:46):
they're talking 1600 feet in thestate of Michigan.
Oh, you better have a flame tobe able to flare off that
methane we're going toencounter.
And you better have all thecontrol measures in place,
because frankly, we have afootprint to do that, right?
Am I going to be able to do thatin a dense urban area in your?
(46:09):
How can you teach this, Dave?
SPEAKER_02 (46:12):
Uh the short answer is you really can't, however,
right?
Um I I'm not a I'm not anengineer.
But I question myself, do weneed to do sixteen hundred foot
(46:37):
geothermal holes?
Does it make sense?
Now the the fact that you candesign it, great.
My concern is the uh the theprecision it takes to be able to
uh uh install loops at thosedepths and those.
(47:00):
I don't think we need blowoutprotectors and all of that.
We do an awful lot of uh youknow 2,000 and 2,500 foot water
well for municipality withoutblowout protectors, right?
You don't need a blowoutprotector uh for that unless
history shows that you shouldhave something like that in the
(47:24):
area, in which case you shouldnot be planning a geothermal job
that deep there, right?
It comes back to planning again,but um there does need to be new
SOPs put together for if I'mgonna go that deep, the
precision it's gonna take tomake sure we don't shut off
(47:45):
those loops, uh, you know, pinchthem or or blow them out on the
bottom because of uh hydrostaticpressure, uh, because you know,
uh in case you you need to go touh a little bit of school, some
of the drillers, you know, wedon't we didn't go to school for
any of this, right?
(48:06):
Uh so you learned on the joblike a lot of guys.
Well, the way to find out thatyou didn't get that right is not
when all of a sudden the systemfails.
Because I got a lot of time inin that.
But think about if we wind upwith a a hole that's relatively
(48:29):
dry, and we put that geothermalloop in at 1500 feet, it what is
the what is the burst pressurefor that material depends on
what they've they spec for thematerial, and then we have to
make sure as we're grouting thatthat we're bringing the fluid
inside and outside the loop upat the same level so that we can
(48:53):
protect it against eitherblowing it out or shutting it
off, because with water, everywhat 2.31 feet is one PSI.
But now when we go grout, whichis so much heavier, it might be
a PSI for every three-quarterfoot, right?
Or every foot and a quarter,depends on what the specific
gravity is.
So now we've got to be able toplay that game as we're grouting
(49:18):
to make sure, but we can't fillthat loop uh up a hundred
percent because if we do, now wecan blow it out at the bottom
before we ever get grout to itbecause the pressures that we're
putting on, you know, thinkabout it, it's just like going
down the at the bottom of apool.
The pressure that changes onyour ear, the same thing is
(49:38):
happening to the loop uh at thebottom of the hole.
So what is the what is thatpressure at 1500 feet?
We're looking at we're lookingat over 600 pounds of pressure,
right?
So now we have to counteractthat with the grout, and it just
is gonna take some a little bitof knowledge and a little bit of
(50:01):
uh of SOPs and retraining thecrews to where you don't do the
same thing every time.
You're gonna have to say, Hey,where's our water level?
Right, so I know what we're whatwe're submerging in.
We you know now it becomes moreprecision drilling, uh, like
(50:23):
anything.
Whenever we increase in depth,we increase in complication,
right?
Uh, and that's on all drillingeverywhere.
When you increase in depth indepth, you're gonna increase the
complication of proper finishingof the well.
SPEAKER_01 (50:41):
It's it's tough.
Um, everything you said, youjust hit the nail on the head,
and it's been a wild ride inyour 16 years of teaching
geothermal 16 years ago.
Um, I was designing, I wasn'tdesigning, I was field testing
(51:04):
thermally enhanced groutes andworking with both states, and we
were putting two loops in onehole, you know, and going to 400
feet.
And um, you know, the thediscussions were well, they want
us 500 feet.
And again, we got into thediscussion of all right, cool.
(51:25):
Does everybody have dual actionpiston grouters now?
Um, mix 111 came out at 72%solids.
You know, we were trying to putMix 111 down a hole, or we were
trying to do one 50-pound bag ofbentonite and 400 pounds of
sand, you know, and like waterquantity and quality and pumping
(51:49):
time and trimmy size.
People freaking out, well, youwant me to go to an intercourt
of trimming?
You know, like uh, and here weare.
Cool.
Can we get to that depth?
Sure.
Are you getting to that depth inan adequate production time?
Because we we have thisdiscussion many times over, and
(52:13):
um I can drill 1500 feet a dayin the many areas of the Great
Lakes State if it's three,500-foot holes.
I'm not drilling one 1500-foothole, even if we want to look at
all of the great um pressreleases out there that say
(52:35):
they're there, they just brokethe drilling record in feet.
Those are 2,500 horsepower rigswith a staff of 35 people, no
different than what Bruce Willissaid in here about um, I'm only
the best because I work with thebest.
(52:58):
And they we trust each other andwe keep ourselves safe.
And so um I want oil-filledtechnology in geothermal.
And I I our advancements, um,including everything that's come
out so far, and coil tubing rigsare a new generation of what
we're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (53:18):
I was gonna say that that that's the game changer for
us is the coil tubing rigs.
But you know, we first off, isthere an there before we can get
widely implemented, there has tobe projects for them that make
sense because the costs are whatthey are, right?
(53:39):
Coal tubing rigs, right?
And so we really need to start,you know, looking at things in a
in a in a light, it a lot oftimes the tail wags a dog in
this in this industry, right?
You're gonna be hard pressed tofind a contractor that wants to
(53:59):
go buy a coil tubing rig on theoff chance that the projects are
gonna be there for them.
The projects kind of gotta comefirst, but they can't really
afford to do the projects unlessthey have someone to drill it.
SPEAKER_01 (54:12):
So right tool, right tool for the right application.
But the the reality is as welook at scaling, and we've
tossed out many differentnumbers with the Geothermal
Drillers Association andwhatnot, going back in
recruitment.
And to hit 2050 goals, we needlike 65,000 drill rigs drilling
(54:35):
600 holes a year for the next 24and a half years, which means if
I have 65,000 new drill rigs outthere, I have 180 or 200,000 new
employees.
Like not to mention, and wetalked about this last week, um,
(54:57):
the drill, the water wellindustry just at 10 and a half
million dollars worth ofrevenue.
So they're busy.
And uh full circle back to addin surface casing and a
sophisticated blowout preventer,and now build them to scale so
that they're reasonably priced,so that they are a safety
(55:19):
mechanism we can implement, orput the risk matrix at hand.
But I drill 3,600-foot wells inSouth Florida into the Lower
Floridian, and we don't havewell control on those.
There are plenty of deep holesout there, and well control
(55:41):
designed appropriately, hasestablished surface casing.
So once we get done cementedestablished surface casing, what
is my cost per foot to drillthat?
But what is my lateral cost perfoot to tie that in?
(56:02):
Because let's think about this,Dave.
I I gotta finish that hole, Igotta remove that surface casing
on surface with my blowoutpreventer, have everything
sealed.
But when my tie-in crew comesin, what did my cost per bore to
get it to six feet below thesurface?
(56:23):
Like, can you imagine?
SPEAKER_02 (56:25):
No, no, it's gonna be it's going to be relatively
high.
And unless there is some sort ofmechanism that's saying that
this is the way you have to go,it's gonna it's gonna do this a
similar thing possibly to someof the cold rock.
Uh residentially, it will not beviable anymore.
(56:49):
But then again, on top of it, uhuh residentially, you know, how
viable is heating oil out east,right?
That doesn't make any senseeither, right?
SPEAKER_01 (57:00):
So um I'm just saying from a standpoint of
cutting a hole, you know, righttrenching, making a trench big
enough that now I can get downthere with a concrete saw,
right?
And then after I get done withthe concrete saw, I have to cut
that surface casing without it.
SPEAKER_02 (57:22):
You can chip the concrete possibly, but yeah, all
in all, yeah, it's you've you'vejust taken your tie and crew and
you've probably increased thenumbers on your tie-in crew,
you've increased the by far thetime that they tie in, right?
Um so really what we what weneed to find.
(57:47):
Well, and even beyond that, letme let me think back on this a
little bit.
We also then have to possibly,and that depends on the area.
Now the design of the of thesystems is going to change
because you're no longer uh downto the rock, you're no longer
(58:08):
tying into the formation becauseyou're tying into the you're
tying into casing.
And uh, so then we need to usethermally enhanced cementatious
grout to be able to put thatthere's a lot of things that
that would have to possiblychange, and it may only be a few
feet that they have to change,but but I think that's it's a
(58:31):
wholesale change in the designsof the project, how long the
projects will take.
Um I think there's gotta be abetter engineering solution to
what we're talking about forwell control for these kind of
(58:54):
things.
Um and it might just be that youhave to look at the area that
you're in and not and not uh notplan to go uh deep enough that
we're gonna need to use thatextensive of well control.
Because we have to be uh we haveto be efficient or or this this
(59:15):
industry can't can't continue.
SPEAKER_01 (59:18):
I I I see it.
We need the risk matrix, youknow, and I remember calling you
in the in the middle of thisdiscussion and being like, hey,
how do we come to a similar riskmatrix as what we have for
trenching?
When do you need an engineeredsystem versus when do you need
just benching versus soilclassification?
(59:41):
You know, all of thosecomponents.
And we have to make it umexecutable and that somebody can
be the competent person on sitebecause we cannot over engineer
these systems.
And I think we'll have somesystems out there that do this,
and they'll be good.
And uh it will be a smallerfootprint because every engineer
(01:00:03):
right now all they see is morevertical feet.
So what if I lose 50 feet tocasing, I have 1550 feet of
vertical.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:12):
But that but that probably means that you you over
drilled it.
Right.
But I I understand it is the thethe temptation as the footprints
we have the working getssmaller, the temptation to put
more vertical depth in theseloops, but it's always like you
(01:00:36):
said, it's always got to beokay.
Does this does this make sense?
Just because it'll heat thebuilding, right?
Doesn't make it uh make sense orsafe.
I can heat your building with amini nuclear reactor out of a
sub, it doesn't make sense forme to do it, right?
(01:00:59):
So are we because you know we'reso in enamored with that we can
do it, we gotta we gotta startthinking, should we do it?
And you know, or it could simplybe the that we have to change,
uh okay, we have this footprintfor a vertical outside, and we
(01:01:24):
can only go 500 feet or 600 feetor a thousand feet there because
deeper than that it's gonna notbe practical.
Okay.
And then we have to startlooking at what are our what are
our options?
Because really, how much is howmuch are we can have a hybrid
(01:01:44):
system, right?
Where the geothermal systemsupplements a a tradition more
traditional system.
Um, there's a lot of ways youcould go with this.
I mean, as a as a driller, man,drill, drill, drill is what I
want to see, but at the sametime, I don't want engineers
(01:02:07):
experimenting killing people forone, but then on top of that,
killing the industry becausethey've over they've
overpromised, right?
And I guess that's maybe justbecause I'm more of a a realist
when it comes to this kind ofthing.
(01:02:29):
Uh, but I just I just don't seewhere that makes sense.
So you there are times when youwhen you told me that that's how
deep they want to go.
I know I'm not gonna let youtalk.
Uh when you told me that's howdeep they wanted to go on that
project where you after you, Ithink we were on the phone, you
hung up, Derek and I stood thereand were like, what and we
(01:02:52):
couldn't come up with why whywhy it made sense, but
obviously, you know, everythingdrilling is is case by case, but
like I said, it's it's it'sgonna change everything about
how you have to approach aproject is based on the geology
(01:03:13):
and the depth you want to go, soit's a scary thing.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:18):
And I want I want to leave this with this as we wrap
up that uh the world's greatestdriller, Harry Stamper, and uh
mad props to uh Bruce Willis inall of his roles, and you know
it's um it is sad to see youknow these these iconic
(01:03:42):
Hollywood action heroes, youknow, um become old, and we see
that they're not bulletproof asJohn McClain or Harry Stamper or
whatnot.
And I think this is the thequote for the industry right
now, and it starts with uh whenHarry's talking to NASA and he's
(01:04:03):
like, What's your contingencyplan?
He goes, I'm sure you got a teamof men sitting around somewhere
right now, just thinking shitup, and somebody backing them
up, and you're telling me youdon't have a backup plan?
You gotta have some sort ofbackup plan, right?
Billy Bob, we don't have abackup plan for this.
And this is the best that youcan do that the government, the
(01:04:27):
US government could come upwith.
I mean, you're NASA for cryingout loud.
You're you put a man on themoon, you're geniuses, you're
the guys thinking this stuff up.
Like we we can we can takescience and physics and I
welcome oil and gas into this, Iwelcome NASA into this, I
(01:04:48):
welcome every bit of what weunderstand as microsecond
reactions and developing thisindustry.
But at the end of the day, asmuch as I want more textbooks
and I want more advancement andvirtual reality and all of this,
(01:05:10):
it is a lot of fun to get thoseyoung individuals on the rig
platform or with the remote intheir hand and watch them get to
create a hole and discover theunknown.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05:27):
Yeah, it's it it's rewarding.
Uh it's also it's also a littlehumbling.
I had a gentleman uh yesterdayuh who drew the short stick,
right?
I had that we were we had we hadgroups out grouting, but I
(01:05:50):
needed uh to go back and andpull casing and do some other
stuff uh for a hole and that I'dthat we had set down to rock and
we'd done some coring and so Ihad to remove all the core pipe
and all it wasn't really thatmuch stuff.
Um but you know after taking thethe uh the core adapter and all
(01:06:13):
that stuff off, and and hespinning case, and he's like, I
can't feel my forearms, and Ilaughed.
I go, Well, you only might haveanother 12 hours of this to do
someday, and he's like, I go,you'll you'll get stronger, or
you or you won't, but it's it'skind of fun that you know he
(01:06:36):
goes, is it always like this?
I'm like, well, yeah, there aretimes when I can't feel my
forearms, but it just takes alot longer before that happens.
Um, you know, you're gonnayou're gonna have those hard
days, but seeing people willingto willing to meet that
challenge, because he he wasbeat after that.
(01:06:57):
And I'm like, you okay?
And he's like, Yeah, I'm fine.
I appreciate the opportunity toto do it though, to see it.
And and I thought that was athat was a great response to
that.
I I appreciated the opportunityto do it, right?
And and so hopefully when hegets to the job, and I believe
(01:07:21):
he did wind up out with a uh uhI think he's out with a water
well company, uh starting nextweek.
And you know, he's gonna get achance to run a chain wrench an
awful lot.
Uh he'll get he'll get used toit, you know.
It but it's it's uh it's arewarding thing.
(01:07:44):
But with all with all the stuffgoing on, I'm excited.
And uh I always am interested tosee what what we're gonna do
next, right?
What is this next phase gonnabe?
Uh, you know, if you if you havea uh an idea or something you
(01:08:06):
want to discuss with Brock andI, or you you have have just got
off a project that like the oneswe're talking about, where you
approach something at a depth orin a way that that is not
standard and you want to discussit, you know, uh drop a line
(01:08:27):
because we would love to discussit.
Brock and I don't don't uhpretend that we're the only ones
that know anything about aboutanything.
Uh so you know if you could ifyou want to discuss why you
think that engineering uh deeperand deeper systems, and here's
how it can be handled, I wouldlove to have that discussion.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08:48):
I would too.
And I think uh that is a greatdiscussion.
And as you talk chain wrench andwhere do we go, and one of the
reasons why coil tubing is so umadvantageous right now is the
fact that we're not handlingtooling as much and that
repetitive stress injury, butI'm back to Harry Stamper, and
(01:09:12):
I'm only as good as the peoplethat are around me, and we need
to get to a point whereergonomics and um engineered
systems are removing us fromneeding that that type of
monotonous work.
And let's face it, as the oiland gas industry transitions
(01:09:34):
into um geoexchange geothermal,there's not that many drillers,
as there are a lot of reallygood people at working at
heights and tripping pipe.
And that's because that rig, 75%of its time is putting pipe in
the hole or pulling pipe out ofthe hole.
You know, it's so the the ideathat we're just gonna go into
(01:09:57):
normal Illinois and run holes asfast as we can, you know, it it
goes back to that that testpilot running that SS 135 and
listening to the bit chatter.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10:14):
Yeah, yeah.
You were on an SS 135 on thatproject.
SPEAKER_01 (01:10:19):
Uh, there was the SS 135 on that project.
It was a short wheelbase, it wasa sweet little rig.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10:26):
Nice, nice.
So, yeah, I had an SS 135 uh atRocket Soul.
That was one of our rigs.
So uh anyway, that that's uhdiscussion for a different day.
So uh it's been a pleasure,Brock.
I I'm glad we're back doingthis.
It it was a fun discussion thismorning, and uh no Wilson.
(01:10:51):
He's Wilson, he's here, right?
I just finished my coffee beforewe started talking about.
Which uh, which son is the signfor far under or wants uh that's
on, but and far under far underis uh is no longer, however, uh
(01:11:12):
there's a new band being formedcorrect right now.
Uh some of the members of FarUnder are in the band, but uh
Far Under, I think was has beenlike about a year or so since he
said he didn't have time for itanymore.
And then shortly after that, youknow, he trained a replacement,
(01:11:35):
and then shortly after that, thewhole thing fell apart for him
for those guys.
So some of the people in FarUnder, the drummer and the uh, I
think the the lead guitarist aregonna be part of this new band.
My my son said he's gonna playuh uh guitar on the new band,
not bass.
He's looking for a bass playercapable of playing the stuff
(01:11:56):
that he had put together, uhthat which sounds odd from what
he was telling me.
He goes, it's not normal stuff,it's stuff that you really gotta
get into.
So we'll see what this new thingsounds like.
Uh, I'm sure it will be heavy.
That's all I can tell you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12:15):
Well, I love it.
Thanks, Dave, for your time, anduh we'll see you all in another
week.
All right, bye, everybody.
Thanks.
Thank you for listening toDrillercast.
Please follow us on yourfavorite podcast platform or
find us on social media.
Next, connect with us at thedriller.com.
(01:12:36):
There's all kinds of greatcontent there, and it's your
best way to continue thisdiscussion or initiate a new
one.
Come on the show, have a debatewith us.
The intro music is provided byDave Bowers Sons band Far Under.
Now, for the legal disclaimer,the views and opinions expressed
on Thrillercast, the Brock andDave Podcast, the bad podcast,
(01:13:01):
are those of Brock Yordy andDave Bowers, along with the
opinions expressed by thesehosts, their guests, other
creators, drillers, helpers, andauthors.
And they do not necessarilyreflect the official policy or
position of our employers orcompanies, groups, and
(01:13:22):
associations we volunteer towork with or BMP media.
Any content provided by ourhosts, guests, bloggers,
authors, drillers, helpers,field technicians, grouters, mud
pan shovelers are of their ownopinion and are not intended to
malign any religion, ethnicgroup, club, organization,
(01:13:44):
company, individual, anyone, oranything, even that pesky sticky
clay.
We have the best intentions hereat DrillerCast, and just like in
drilling, sometimes theunexpected conditions arise,
creating genuine discussions.
Because yet again, nothing onthe driller cast is scripted.
Thanks everybody.
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