April 10, 2026 • 61 mins
At 22 years old, Renae Ninneman flew halfway around the world to teach English in South Korea. It was 2004, cell phones weren't really a thing yet, and she couldn't even confirm with her parents that she'd landed safely until days later. That leap kicked off a lifelong obsession with decoding cultural differences, and today she's the founder of Beyond Tourism, a community radio DJ on KZUM 89.3 FM, and a doctoral student studying how we connect across cultures.
We dig into the reverse culture shock she felt coming home, how concepts like power distance and direct versus indirect communication completely reframed her experience, and why she believes cultural intelligence is a skill anyone can build. Renae breaks down why Americans can come across as "aggressively friendly" to people from other cultures, why you don't look your boss in the eye in South Korea, and how self-reflection is the piece most people skip when trying to connect across differences. Plus, we get into Korean food, sushi conveyor belts, and how music transcends language.
Check out Renae's work at goingbeyondtourism.com, and catch The Language of Music Sunday afternoons on KZUM 89.3 FM.
Want to be a guest on Drink O'Clock? Send us a message on PodMatch here: podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/drinkoclock
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SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
All right.
We are live at a countdown,which is cool.
I mean, uh, new software, newme, I guess.
I I don't, I don't.
It's not really new.
It's they're forcing me to useit.
So here we are with D ScriptRooms.
Thank you, D Script, for ruininga perfectly good thing.
Uh my name's Rob Valenskius.
I am the host of the Trink aClock podcast.
And I have with me ReneeNineman.
(00:58):
Did I say that right again?
You did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good.
Awesome.
All right.
Now, uh, you're the founder ofBeyond Tourism.
You're also a community radioDJ, which I thought was was
pretty cool, right?
Uh in in uh Nebraska.
Yes.
Uh and you're uh currently adoctoral student.
So welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_04 (01:19):
Yes.
Hi, thank you for having me.
And I do have a drink.
SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
So Cheers.
Cheers.
So I like to start every episodeof my podcast with kind of a
background.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
You know, who is Renee?
Um, what got you to a point?
Now, you know, um, I know atsome point you lived in South
Korea, right?
So take me up into that pointand then we'll kind of discuss
that a little bit because Ithink that's part of your origin
story, right?
SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
Yeah.
Uh I grew up in West Michigan.
Um, it was a very uh homogenouscommunity, and travel wasn't
ever really like encouraged oranything like that.
So after college, when I waslike, I want to go to South
Korea, um, that was sort of uhkind of a strange thing, and
(02:14):
nobody really quite knew what todo with that, including my
parents.
Um and so, you know, I was 22.
What do I know?
Um, and this was definitely likeearly days of this was 2004.
So early days of like theinternet, cell phones weren't a
thing.
(02:34):
Um, and so it was a verydifferent way of like finding
the job, but getting interviewedfor the job to teach English to
kids.
Um, and then like I didn't havea cell phone.
I flew halfway around the world.
My parents, I couldn't confirmwith them that I had gotten
there.
So like they found out like twoor three days later when I was
at my job, and I'm like, Ishould probably like email my
(02:56):
parents or something.
Um, so that that was uh it was ajourney in and of itself to like
get myself abroad.
Um, and I don't know if anyone'sfamiliar with the Peace Corps,
but like if I had known aboutthe Peace Corps, I would have
done the Peace Corps, where yougo off to a country for two
years and you work with the thelocals to build something in
(03:18):
their community together.
Um, but I was really just readyto go out and like explore the
world, and that's what I did.
So you you you didn't want tojust hang out in Michigan?
You know, I love Michigan.
I mean, I live in Nebraska now,but where I grew is is
beautiful.
(03:38):
I I like it, I still like it.
So a lot of people, you know,bash their hometown, and I get I
get that too.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Um, but I I really did like living in Michigan, so
where did I drive to inMichigan?
I was uh I had to drive.
So I work in in the insuranceworld and I had to I I had a
meeting in Detroit.
Okay, and then I had to drive.
(04:06):
Was it uh I stayed, I think, inin uh gay, which I I think is uh
like a mining town or something.
It it was like in between whereI needed to go.
I basically went from Detroitand had to just drive in a
rental all the way up tonorthern Michigan.
SPEAKER_04 (04:25):
Oh, okay.
See, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
Yeah, I grew up in the And I stayed kind of in the
center, yeah, you know,somewhere.
SPEAKER_04 (04:31):
I grew up over here on the west coast.
Okay, so but yeah, it's asurprisingly big state with a
lot of people, so and a lot ofwater.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
Yes, very dense.
There's there's just peopleeverywhere.
Yes.
Um and it's kind of like PA.
So I'm from Philly, and uh itPhilly's just a weird spot
because you know it's a Quakerstate.
So you could go you could be inthe city and you could drive uh
only about an hour and a halfand you'd be in Amish country,
(05:05):
which is I feel like that'spretty unique.
I don't know if there's anyother major city like a like
Philadelphia, which is you knowwhat, maybe a top ten city in
terms of like a populationdensity where you could go from
just a city city to like farmsand doing you know, and buggies
and like they don't drive cars,right?
So it's like it's a it's aculture shock there.
(05:27):
Yeah.
Uh when and it and it's not afar distance.
And it's uh it's kind of um, Idon't know if you could do that
in every direction, but it'spretty damn close, you know.
Um interesting.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a it's uh have you been toPennsylvania?
SPEAKER_04 (05:44):
Um a long time ago for a very short amount of time.
So I don't really have memories.
Yeah, it's uh your trip toMichigan.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
It's it's a unique, it's it's definitely a uh unique
state.
Uh because there's just there'sa lot of things that would shock
you or surprise you in incertain spots, you know,
especially even in the city ofPhiladelphia.
Um now let's let's get up tothat point.
So uh what made you well, youknow, what was that determining
(06:16):
factor?
I mean, at 22, you're a kid,which by the way, I grew up, you
know, I'm I'll be 40 this year.
Um it was a it was a pretty cooltime that we lived in.
It was I think it was veryunique because is it was right
before cell phones really startto take off, right?
And you know, it was that timewhen you know you'd have to say
to your parents, hey, they orthey said to you, be home by a
(06:39):
certain time so I know you'realive.
Um if they didn't know where youwere, they're outside the house,
like, you know, Robbie, Renee,like they're yelling for your
name and hoping you're like bythe house.
Um and that was just the worldwe lived in.
And I um and now I think aboutit, and you know, I I I text the
(06:59):
wifey when I'm landing, youknow, in the plane, like, hey,
I'm good, I'm alive, we landedfine, you know.
And uh I can only imagine, youknow, what that was like to um I
mean, I guess I got some of itas a kid, but as an adult, I I
wouldn't even know what that'slike, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (07:18):
Yeah, it was interesting, I think.
It cell phones were like barelya thing.
And South Korea is more advancedtechnologically than the US, and
it was then, and I I think itstill is now.
So everybody had cell phones andthey were pretty advanced, like
people were watching TV on theircell phones um in 2005 in South
(07:38):
Korea.
Um, I don't know that it waslike high quality, but the
phones are really nice.
Um, and so that yeah, I think itwas an interesting time.
There were there was theinternet, so there were a lot of
travel blogs, so I could likelearn about um places that I
traveled like through onlinethings, but not like cell phone,
(07:58):
not you know, I wasn't using myphone to navigate.
I still had to like getdirections on how to go from
place to place, like based onlandmarks or maps or something
like that.
So it was a really differenttime.
And so I I mean, I think it's anadvantage that I've been able to
travel like that.
And then also now, obviously, Itravel with a cell phone with my
(08:20):
Google Maps open and I'mwandering around.
You know, it I've I could do itboth ways, right?
And but it was a reallydifferent time for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Yeah, kids listening to this, uh, you know, you
didn't have GPS on your phones.
Google Maps wasn't a thing.
We had to have a Garmin, youknow, or something like that.
And it was a separate devicethat you had like rigged into
your car somewhere, and the mapswere downloaded.
So you might go to, you know,there was no traffic.
(08:52):
It didn't, you know, update youon what was going on.
It just simply told you how toget there.
Because before those, it was mapquests.
Yeah, and you had to print itoff.
You printed your yourdirections, which I used to do.
And and in most cases, if you'reby yourself, you're screwed
because you gotta read thedirections and hope you don't
mess up.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
And then, you know, if you have somebody with you,
they're reading you thedirections, and then you're
hoping they tell you where toturn when you need to turn.
SPEAKER_03 (09:18):
It worked.
It worked.
Pretty well.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
But I gotta tell you, uh, I am a a huge fan of
Google Maps and ways and allthat, and uh being able to know
that there's, you know, I andlook, I've taken the same way to
work, same ways to work 11years.
I'm a I could probably drivethere with my eyes closed.
I always turn Google Maps on tomake sure there's no accident on
(09:45):
my route.
And if there is, then I know topivot, right?
It's just I and I I'd imaginemost people at this point, if
not, have it just automaticallyloaded when you plug your phone
into your car now.
I mean, uh, if you got a carthat's relatively new, you know,
you have Apple Play and you haveGoogle uh whatever it CarPlay
(10:06):
and it just everything justconnects.
Um, you know, my wifey's car,you don't even need to plug it
in.
It connects Bluetooth andautomatically Google Maps comes
up, and I'm like, yeah, I wish II know I I need that for mine.
But that's fine.
SPEAKER_03 (10:18):
What 20 people do.
SPEAKER_00 (10:21):
I know, right?
Um so what's a what's a decisionlike that at 22?
You're a kid.
Um what was that like for you?
Because, you know, not manypeople are just gonna be like,
all right, I'm just gonna moveto a totally different country.
And it's not like you chosesomething glamorous, right?
Like an Italy, a London, youknow, like something like that.
(10:41):
You, you know, you went to SouthKorea, which is even more of a
culture shock because I do thinkthat, you know, South Korea,
Japan, like their cultures andthe things that they do, they're
well, one, they're they'redefinitely way more advanced in
technology with a lot of things.
And I think that they're justthe things that we do here that
we think are normal are askedbackwards in half half the
(11:03):
world, you know.
So what was that decision likefor you?
SPEAKER_04 (11:07):
Um, I don't really, I just knew I needed to do it.
So I had had a um South Koreansuite mate, my freshman year of
college, and then I met anotherSouth Korean, like I had just
met some South Koreans, and Ididn't know this at the time,
but um, there are places inAsia, South Korea included,
where you can usually get a jobteaching English if you have a
(11:29):
bachelor's degree and you're anative English speaker.
And so that's sort of what thatwas it.
That's the rec of therequirements for the job.
So for me, um it was not thathard.
Like I knew South Koreans, theytold me I could get this job.
The company that I worked with,I checked with my South Korean
friend.
She's like, oh yeah, that's abig company in in Seoul.
(11:51):
So, you know, like it was it, Igot it vetted and everything
like that.
Um, it was pretty good pay.
Um, like I, but like somethingin me just like knew that I had
to do that and that I wanted todo that.
Um and, you know, it I had a Iwhen people ask me about that,
my answer is usually, well, Ihad it was really hard, but it
(12:15):
it was a difficult year, but itwas worth it.
Um, and really in a lot of wayschanged the trajectory of my
life.
Um, and like giving me theopportunity to see the world um
and learn a lot about culture,learn a lot, like to study the
language a little bit.
Um, I also visited China,Vietnam, and India while I was
(12:37):
out there.
So I got to see a lot more ofAsia.
Um, and so it was it was tough,but it was worthwhile.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
So yeah, because guess what?
When when you become an olderadult, you're not able to do
that.
You know, you can't just kind ofpick up and be like, you know,
I'm gonna go to Australia today.
Yeah, you know, or next week.
And and I live there for awhile.
Like it's I I think if you areyounger, it makes it makes the
(13:07):
decision.
It's harder because you know, alot of times you don't have the
money, you don't have the means,you don't have the what you
need.
Um, but if you do, it, you know,there I feel like most people
aren't ever like, you know, madthat they did it, you know, even
if they have bad experiences.
Um I think life is part of that.
SPEAKER_04 (13:25):
It's not that it was easy, like it was it was hard,
but it was absolutely worth it.
Um, so yeah, it was it was a agood learning experience for me
at the right time.
And I, yeah, I took advantage ofthe opportunity.
I sowed my wild oats, is what Iwill usually say.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Now, did you know any um Korean?
Did you learn it on the go?
Was it like, did you plan it?
SPEAKER_04 (13:51):
Um, I didn't, not really.
My this my sweet mate, myfreshman year, um, in in the
dorm, she sat down one night andshe taught me the Korean
alphabet.
Um, and so like it was literallythree years after that that I
went to South Korea.
And again, no cell phones.
I didn't know, like there was nolike Duolingo for me.
(14:13):
Um, but like the alphabet, theKorean alphabet is actually not
that difficult.
It's pretty easy to learn.
Um, and so when I landed, like Icould read like the I could
pronounce it, I could like readthings, but I didn't know what
they meant.
Um, I remember that was the yearthat elf came out because I I
landed in like end of November.
(14:33):
And so eLf was everywhere and ithad like ELF was advertised on
all these buses, but they don'thave the F sound in Korean.
So they do the P sound instead.
So it was um, I could read itand it said el t.
And I thought that was reallyfunny.
Um, so I remember that likeriding the limo bus into Seoul,
(14:56):
like my first night.
I was like, okay, I can readsome things because my suite
mate taught me the alphabetthree years ago and somehow I
retained it.
And now it helps me springboardinto learning a little bit more
of the language, and I don'tremember much of it now.
I can still read, but um I, youknow, it's been so many years
and I don't use it, so it'srusty, it just goes away.
(15:19):
But I can still read the outlike the alphabet is like stuck
in my head.
I can read it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
So now, you know, you're coming from Michigan.
Yeah.
In in in America.
Yes.
You go to South Korea.
Yes.
Gotta be an intense cultureshock, right?
Uh and especially, you know,2004, 2005.
Talk a little bit about um, youknow, what what were some of the
(15:45):
things that they did that kindof shocked you?
Maybe there were some thingsthat you did that kind of
shocked, you know, uh just aSouth Korean.
Like is it what what some ofthose things look like?
Um, and I'm sure it might bedifferent now because that was
also 20 years ago, but what wasthat like there?
SPEAKER_04 (16:03):
Well, I was working in a school.
So that kind of what happens isI I worked in a private English
teaching, English languageschool.
And so kids would come studyEnglish after school.
So it was like an after-schoolactivity for them where they
would come and learn learnEnglish.
Um, so this is like kindergartento middle school aged kids.
(16:26):
And what the structure was, Iwould teach and I'd have a
Korean partner teacher.
And so they'd spend like 45minutes with each of us.
Um, and so the setting where Iworked, there were a lot of
foreigners like me.
Um, and so it was pretty open.
And my, you know, my directcontact with the culture was
through my um South Koreancoworkers who were used to
(16:50):
working with foreigners.
Um so I think that, you know,made a difference, made it a
little bit easier for me becausethey were used to me, were used
to Americans and Canadians andAustralians doing weird things.
(17:10):
Um, and they were also verywelcoming and very generous and
very kind to us.
Um, and so that really helped alot.
And I think also probably theylike adapted some of their
behaviors in in that setting tooto make us feel more
comfortable.
Um, you know, they wereinteracting with us, and you
know, we didn't speak SouthKorean very well, so they would
(17:32):
speak in our language.
So that kind of helped too.
Um so I will often use the termbubble, you know, like I I lived
in South Korea, and there werebut I did spend a lot of time in
sort of my Western bubble withmy fellow teachers, um, like
(17:54):
mostly Canadian teachers andAustralian teachers.
Um but I I did work really hardto try to get out of that
bubble.
Um, I tried my best to learnKorean.
Um, and I also tried my best tomeet other South Korean people,
um, do like language exchangeand stuff like that.
(18:16):
So um, yeah, I certainly madeplenty of mistakes.
And I am sure like because youknow, I was 22 years old.
So it's like being a foreigneron top of being young.
Um it was uh, you know, aninteresting time and learned a
(18:36):
lot.
Um, but I think like it thething that I have come to
understand about culturaldifferences, and this is a big
part of like what I talk aboutnow too, is that they people
don't explain them very often.
Um, so one thing that I wastaught was that, you know, there
was the boss, you know, the guyin charge of the school, and
(18:58):
you're not supposed to look yourboss directly in the eye.
So that's like a cultural rulethat they taught me.
Nobody taught me why I wassupposed to do that.
There was no like surroundinglike background or explanation
as to why I'm not supposed to dothat.
But I was very clear, clearlytold, don't look kid straight in
(19:19):
the eye.
That's disrespectful.
I was like, okay, fine, I canlike not do that, but I didn't
know why.
And I was like, I was alwaysworried that there was something
else that I was doing wrong thatwas disrespectful.
Um, and so I just I just didn'tknow.
Um, and so that these things,these cultural differences, um
(19:44):
they're just not explained,right?
And so I wish that some some ofthis could have been explained
better to me.
Um, and I wish that you couldsay that.
I just wanted to see my son ishanging out.
Um so that that was I I don'tthink I think they protected me
(20:08):
a little bit from like full onculture like full-on Korean
culture contact.
Um which was kind of them.
Um, but then also I didn't get alot of like description um about
what it was I was supposed to doand not supposed to do.
It wasn't very in-depth, it wasvery shallow.
(20:29):
Um, and so I kind of like didn'teven know that I was doing this,
but the pat like since I wentabroad, I've spent a lot of my
life trying to like decodecultural differences and find
ways to explain them.
Um, because I have so manymemories of like, well, just
being confused and notunderstanding what was going on,
(20:50):
and like not being able todescribe, like, I am sure I did
weird, offensive, strangethings, but nobody told me,
right?
Like it just wasn't spoken.
Um so yeah, it was it's hard tosay exactly what what I might
have done wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Um did you ever find out like why it's disrespectful
to look a boss in his eyes?
I feel like for me, and I'm surethis is the American in me, I
feel like it would it it'sdisrespectful to me if they
don't look me in the eyes.
That means they're not payingattention.
SPEAKER_04 (21:27):
That's how I think it's exactly.
So like the concept of notlooking someone in the eye is
really strange, like to showrespect.
So it's like the exact opposite.
And like this is the trick withso many cultural differences, is
that it doesn't make sense toyou like, but I want to show you
respect by looking you straightin the eye, like that is a kind
(21:48):
and respectful thing to do.
Um but it's really it's likemultiple things, but I I d I
have since figured it outunderstand it a little more
deeply.
And just that, um, you know, andand also this also goes to some
of the terms and the learningthat I've done around cultural
(22:09):
differences.
So, you know, hierarchy and umpower distance is uh much
different in South Korea and alot of Asian countries.
And so the concept of like thisperson is high above you or this
person is below you or somethinglike that, hierarchy is really
important.
And then also um how you showrespect to people in the
(22:34):
hierarchy um is also a reallyimportant thing.
And that can change, right?
So if you have, you may havelike this high complicated
hierarchy, which exists in SouthKorea, but other places in the
world they have that as well.
Um, but how you treat thatperson who is high above you is
always different.
So in South Korea, um, you don'twant to look directly at someone
(23:00):
in the eye if they're very highabove you, and it's just a sign
of respect.
So it has to do with like thelike the the power dynamics and
then like the actions thatsupport like how to show
respect.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
That's interesting.
Now, now I have a I have aquestion.
So I interviewed uh excuse me, acouple who moved from America to
Japan.
And uh, you know, they told mesomething that was kind of a I
don't not I don't know if it wasa culture shock, but um they
(23:37):
like the work to life balance isis a lot different.
So it's five o'clock, everybodyin the office like you know, for
us, we we just all disperse, gohome.
But everybody in Japan, it'slike everyone's going out,
you're getting drinks, you'redrinking sake.
In a lot of cases, people arejust getting, you know, fucking
(23:58):
loaded.
Yeah.
And then, you know, taking atrain, you know, home and
they're passing out.
And they said it's um theydidn't, you know, it's it's just
different, you know, incomparison.
How South Korea is it?
Is it similar in that?
I don't know if it's just likein, you know, in some of the
Asian countries that they dothat for maybe it's it's kind of
more specific to Japan.
SPEAKER_04 (24:19):
Um, there was a little bit of that.
It wasn't every single day, butwe did have certain times where
we we would go out as a like asa staff, the mixed, you know,
the South Koreans and theWesterners.
And we would hang out and drinkand do um karaoke rooms,
noribangs.
Um, that was super fun.
(24:39):
Um there's a little bit of that,but LA I didn't experience it to
the extent at which I think ithappens in Japan.
But we had a lot of fun, that'sfor sure.
SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Yeah, you know what they they always tell me we
don't have it here, but it'slike the uh um this like the
sushi belts.
I really want to go to one ofthem and I don't know if there's
one.
And you know, they're talkingabout how the sushi just kind of
goes around.
And they said it's pretty cool.
So in Japan, every plate kind ofhas a like a code to it.
Yes, if you take a plate, it'llautomatically, you know, charge
(25:13):
you based on what you grab,which I thought is is pretty
cool.
SPEAKER_04 (25:16):
It is cool.
I've been to a sushi conveyorbelt restaurant in Japan.
Um, and they I've also been inone in Seattle, so they have
them in the United States.
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Yeah, I heard they're here.
I just wish there.
I you know what?
I bet you if I Google it,there's probably something in
Philadelphia somewhere.
It's possible.
SPEAKER_04 (25:35):
It's not every major city.
Um, it's a pretty niche thing, Ithink, but it's worth looking
because maybe not Philadelphia,but New York City, probably.
But they're just they're prettyfun.
Yeah, like it's just kind of afun place to go.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
I I love me some good sushi.
It's it's you know, it's sogood.
And I'd imagine it's even, youknow, I was and I when I was
having this conversation, I'mlike, I couldn't imagine having
like Japanese sushi.
You know, it's not like sushihere, where like if you're
getting it from Colorado, yeah,you know, they're not doing
their own fishing.
You know, they have to buy thefish, have it shipped in.
(26:11):
It's just it's a totallydifferent experience.
SPEAKER_04 (26:13):
Yeah, you've always gotta experience the food.
And you know, Korean food isstill different than Japanese
food, but like Koreans havetheir own, you know, fresh fish
dishes, you know, which I didn'teat very much when I lived
there.
But, you know, there's whateverthe the the food is, the seafood
(26:34):
is, you gotta you gotta takeadvantage of it in that place
for sure.
And then whatever the food is ingeneral, you just have to try
the local food.
And it's pretty good in Japanfor sure.
And South Korea.
I ate Korean food every singleday.
And 20 years later, I stillcrave Korean food um and love
(26:55):
eating it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
So what's what was you know just some popular
dishes in Korea?
Is it is it um is like morespicy food?
SPEAKER_04 (27:03):
Yeah, Korean food is a lot spicier, especially
compared to Japanese food.
Japanese food is not as spicy,um, but South Korean food is,
although not as like probablythe spiciest food I've ever
eaten is Thai food.
I've never been to Thailand, butlike that's a real that's a
whole nother level that I I havenot been able to achieve.
But I ate everything in SouthKorea, and I really did get like
(27:26):
a high um spicy food tolerance,and still can eat pretty spicy
foods, which I'm pretty proudof.
Um, but this the food is isreally really delicious.
Um, some of my well, likethere's uh you got your street
food, there's uh food calleddakuki, which is like rice cakes
(27:46):
and like spicy sauce.
I love that stuff.
And then kimbab, which is umlike uh a vegetable roll.
It looks like sushi, but it'snot sushi, it's kimbab.
And if you watch K-pop demonhunters, they eat it a lot, they
eat kimbab a lot.
So um it's uh it's pretty fun tosee that.
Um, but yeah, Korean food isabsolutely delicious.
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
I love spicy food.
Um, but I'm one of those peoplewhere I need to be able to enjoy
it, right?
I don't want to eat somethingthat's so spicy that it ruins
the rest of my day.
Like, you know, I don't I don'twant to eat at like the one time
I had flamethrower wings, and Iyeah, I was probably like 20.
I thought it and I was like, ohyeah, I'll eat one of those.
(28:31):
I took one bite, I was crying, Iwas snotting, it milk didn't
help, and it was the worst, andI was I was like that.
I was like, I couldn't breathefor like 30 minutes.
That's scary.
I don't I don't know why peopledo that to themselves.
SPEAKER_04 (28:46):
I don't either.
I will say Korean food is to methe perfect amount of spicy.
So when I first got there, I waseating everything.
I was like, I'm gonna try that,I'm gonna try that, I'm gonna
try that.
And not all Korean food isspicy, but some of it is.
You just have to figure it outwhich one is and which one
isn't.
And I would, you know, orderthings and I'd be eating it, and
my nose would be running and I'dbe sweating, and I'd just be
(29:09):
like, it is so good, I can'tstop eating it.
I just have to keep eating it.
Um, and so that's what theKorean food is is good.
Like it's very delicious andflavorful.
Um I love me some spicy.
And eatable.
So it's edible, it's not toospicy.
Um, so I highly recommend it toanybody.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Now, what was it like coming home after living
from abroad, right?
So talk about reverse cultureshock.
You know, how did that hit you?
And how do you think thatreshaped kind of who you are?
I was wild.
How long did you stay out in inSouth Korea?
SPEAKER_04 (29:48):
One year.
Okay.
Which is not that long.
A lot of people spend a lot moretime in other places, but it was
long enough to to have anexperience.
But when I came back, it was umit was pretty intense um and
confusing.
Um just very confusing for me.
I like looking back at my timein South Korea, I was just like,
(30:12):
what just happened to me?
You know, because I had finishedcollege and I sort of killed
time for the summer, and then Iwent straight to South Korea.
So for me, it was like, well,now I'm back in the United
States.
I uh like, what am I gonna dowith my life?
What was this experience I justhad?
It felt weird.
Like I definitely felt like notnormal.
(30:33):
Like something's happening withme.
I don't understand my identityanymore.
Like, who am I?
Um, so I asked a lot of reallybig questions.
Um, and this is this is the timewhere I actually started
learning about like culturaldifferences, um, cultural
values.
And I read a few books that justlike changed my brain chemistry,
(30:57):
as sometimes we say these days,um, and helped me like put words
to my experience.
So even just the concept of likepower distance um and like a
direct versus indirectcommunication, um, these types
of ideas and concepts, likedescribing cultural differences,
(31:20):
like I mentioned before, like alot of times people don't like
they can't describe culture,they can't describe it very
well.
And so when I came back and Iwas started reading some of
these books and learning moreabout cultural differences, I
was like just shocked tounderstand, to like understand
and to know that you canactually describe these things.
(31:42):
And it felt really empowering tome.
And I still see all the timepeople like avoiding it because
they don't know how to talkabout cultural differences.
So they just don't talk aboutit, or they just sort of leave
it like nebulous andunexplained.
Like, oh, how can we can'texplain American culture?
It's too complicated.
(32:02):
Like, we can't explain why we dothat.
I don't know.
It's just it's just the Americanway, or it's just the Korean
way.
Um and like when I came back andI started reading these books
and learning and exploring, Iwas like, you actually can't
describe this.
And so again, spent like 20years living.
(32:23):
Uh, well, I lived abroad andthen came back.
I worked with refugees, um,worked in a lot of global
settings.
And I was able to learn more,build more experiences,
understand different cultures,and be able to describe them.
Um, and like to be able todescribe what I was experiencing
and um what was happening.
unknown (32:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
So now that you're back, you know, you you've
you're back, right?
Let's talk about your company,um, you know, which is beyond
tourism.
So talk about um its inception.
Um, what made you think of thename?
You know, what does that mean toyou?
Yeah.
And, you know, what type of gapsare you filling, you know, and
addressing that you you think,and I you've probably at this
(33:09):
point explained it, but um, fillus in on that.
SPEAKER_04 (33:13):
So it was almost two years ago when I kind of had the
idea.
And I think as many as happenswith some people, like the
original idea is not kind ofwhat I'm doing now.
So originally my thought was I'mgonna teach these um these like
these cultural intelligenceskills that I have.
Um, I'm gonna teach these skillsto people who are traveling
(33:36):
internationally, either astourists or for as expats.
Um and so that's kind of how Istarted.
And so the the idea was um likewhen you are out in the world,
you're out traveling.
Um if you're a person who wantsto engage with the world, um
(34:03):
beyond the tourism mindset,right?
Beyond being a tourist.
So you want to connect withother humans, um, not just like
wander around their city andtake pictures, right?
You want to get to know people.
Um, and then like thecomplications that come with
getting to know people from adifferent culture, um, there's
(34:26):
there's a lot of those.
It's it's sometimes difficult toconnect cross-culturally.
So, you know, if you're a personwho wants to connect with other
people beyond being a tourist,beyond tourism, then I can help
you do that.
I can help you learn how toconnect better across cultures.
So that was kind of theinception.
And I did that um for a bit andwith mild, mild success, I
(34:53):
guess, not super a lot ofsuccess.
And so I've decided to kind ofshift and then work with
immigrants who are in the UnitedStates.
Um and you know, I could talkabout that, talk about that in
more depth, but it's not quiteas interesting.
But it's more like the skillsare what's important, right?
(35:13):
The ability to connect withother people from different
cultures.
Because honestly, like if youtalk to any traveler, um that
like the best stories come frommeeting people who are different
from you and connecting withthem on a deeper level.
Um, and I have those stories forsure.
(35:34):
And a lot of people who travelhave those stories too.
Um, and I have mixed feelingsabout keeping this name while
I'm thinking about likeswitching and serving a
different audience.
Um, but um it's the concept isstill there.
Like we're connecting with eachwith each other in a way that's
not tourism is not like thetransactional nature of being a
(35:58):
tourist is not in place.
We are gonna connect with eachother as humans.
Um, so that's that's sort ofwhat I and the dream, and that
what's inspired me to start thisbusiness and keeps me going.
Um, I just think it's reallyimportant is the world is
shrinking.
(36:18):
You know what I mean?
Like we can connect with eachother so easily online, and we
have to be able to understandeach other across these cultural
differences, especially if wewant to achieve goals as a
planet um and live in peace andhelp each other and you know,
enjoy the best of humanity.
Like we need these skills andthese abilities to um to work
(36:42):
across differences.
SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
Yeah, and I think um, you know, technology is a
blessing and a curse.
Yeah.
You know, um, I think that umwith all the technology we have,
you would think that we wouldhave bridged that gap a little
more because I could just Googlestuff.
I can just connect through Zoomwith somebody from another
country and I can havediscussions.
You would think you'd have a lotmore people um that have done
(37:08):
that, but they they don't.
Yeah, you know, they justconnect with the people here,
you know.
SPEAKER_04 (37:13):
And well, it's not it's not a matter of like, let
me just learn a thing, right?
And so, and I I'm a super nerdon this topic, which is why I'm
studying it on a much deeperlevel.
But it's not just about like um,let me learn a thing about this
culture, like that I can't looksomebody in the eyes in South
(37:33):
Korea.
That is that is a part of it,right?
There's certainly a part of itwhere you have to learn about
the differences, but thenthere's also the part of it
where like you have to inspectyourself and understand like
your own cultural programming,right?
I am an American, that is how Iwas raised, and I act a certain
(37:53):
way and I believe certain thingsbecause I'm an American.
And if you don't like even likeyou can learn a ton of stuff
about the world, but if younever come to terms with that,
like and understand I am the wayI am because of my cultural
programming, and then you lookat another person and you're
like, well, they are the waythey are because of their
cultural programming.
(38:13):
And it's not so much like I'm abad person for who my cultural
programming, they're a badperson because of their cultural
programming, but you just likeit's just different, right?
And so to if you see that otherperson in their cultural
programming and you're like,well, that's wrong, that's bad,
then they can look back at youand and think the same thing.
(38:36):
And so the skill is really, andand what I teach is that
cultural intelligence, which issimilar to emotional
intelligence and cognitiveintelligence.
This is a skill, okay?
This is a skill you can getbetter at.
And so it takes likeself-reflection, it takes some
learning, but also takes likethe ability to look at yourself
(39:01):
and understand I am this way bejust because of where I was
raised, right?
And so it's a little, it islearning, but it's also like
self-reflective skills too,which is sometimes hard.
Like, but I thought this was apart of me.
Actually, every this everybody'slike that in the United States.
(39:22):
It's it's just a cultural trait,right?
So coming to terms with likeyour cultural traits and who you
are as a person really helpslike the like it's a mindset
shift about like how I'm gonnaact and interact with people who
are different from me and whohave that different cultural
programming.
I don't know if that makessense.
SPEAKER_00 (39:41):
Yeah.
No, it does, it does.
And you know, it's I think thatwhat you're talking about um
also transcends culture, butalso you can look at it from uh
gender dynamics, right?
It's the same concept, right?
You see a little boy playingwith a doll.
Yeah, you know, and maybe inyour head you're like, oh, well,
don't do that.
You're a man, right?
(40:02):
But that's something taught inour culture, in most cultures,
right?
I think it might be a little bitdifferent today, but I still
think, I mean, you look atgender reveals, you know, blue
and pink, right?
You're not seeing, you know,green and purple, and I'm not
seeing purple and going, oh,that's a boy.
You know, so um I think that uhit does transcend that as well.
(40:23):
And and I I like what you'redoing because I do I do think
that, you know, especially we asAmericans, all right.
Yeah, you look at you need tolook me in the eye here on
YouTube.
We need to get better atself-reflection.
unknown (40:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Okay.
Uh, because not everything is iseveryone else's problem.
Maybe it's you.
So think think about I, youknow, uh I'm I'm pretty good
with being uh with coming outand saying I'm wrong.
Um sometimes there's some thingsI'll I'll some hills I'll die on
for no reason, but the in a lotof cases I'll be the first
(40:56):
person to tell you, hey, I'mwrong.
Um or I'll admit, hey, yeah,let's let's let's talk about
that, right?
So um but I think we've we'vemade strides, but then you know,
we've we've kind of taken someback steps and we've made
strides.
It's like this weird pendulumswing of uh of that.
(41:18):
But what's your thoughts onthat?
SPEAKER_04 (41:21):
I mean, it I like what you mentioned about like
the gender stuff because it's asocial construct, right?
Culture is just a socialconstruct, it's just made up,
right?
We just make it up.
And we make things up that aregood and that are bad, right?
Because just like with the eyecontact example, if South Korea
(41:43):
looks someone in the eyes, it'sbad.
In the United States, it's good.
These are social constructs,there's absolutely no inherent
value in eye contact, bad orgood.
It's just socially invented.
And so, like when it comes to, Ithink Americans, yes, like for
(42:03):
an American to like step backand be like, I'm not gonna, I'm
gonna look that person in theeyes because this is America and
I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.
This is the right way.
And like, okay, like that's howagain, this self-reflection,
like you were saying, it's notthat's not what it is.
Okay, this it doesn't matterthat much.
(42:25):
What matters is are you tryingto show respect to somebody?
Okay.
If you're trying to show respectto somebody, then you should and
they're from South Korea, youshouldn't look them directly in
the eyes, no matter what itfeels like for you.
And interactingcross-culturally, like if you're
adapting and changing yourbehavior, which is what you
should be doing, it does feelweird.
And it felt weird to me to notlook somebody in the eyes.
(42:48):
But that's the point.
Like you have to learn how toadapt, right?
You have to adjust and you haveto learn and you have to like be
like, oh yeah, this does feelweird, but it's it's not a bad
thing.
So I do think that likeAmericans, especially the
individualism is a little offthe charts, right?
Like people just are like, Ithink I know what's right, I
(43:12):
know it's best, what's what's inthe United States is the only
thing that matters.
And so there is sort of thislike narrowing, I think.
Narrowing of what we think isgood and right and like the the
right thing.
Like look somebody in the eye,give them a strong handshake,
and that's good.
You know what I mean?
Like that's sociallyconstructed, it's made up.
(43:35):
Somebody just made the way orthe highway.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (43:39):
So that's that thinking doesn't help.
SPEAKER_04 (43:41):
So I think the social construct thing just
sheds a lot of light on, youknow, like it's all just
invented, and then we assignmoral value to it.
You know what I mean?
And so I think like we all couldstand to let some of that stuff
go, um, and then show each otherthe respect.
That uh we need based on ourcultural uh upbringing, which
(44:06):
for some people is eye contactand a strong handshake, and for
other people it's not.
But let's show each other thatrespect.
SPEAKER_00 (44:16):
Yeah, and it's it's it's different here too.
Like uh is your is your son, ishe younger?
Yeah, he's seven.
So yeah, he okay, so uh he so hemight not be in on this, but
it's like if you were to talk toa kid and you're like, oh yeah,
you know, uh it's like six orseven, and they're like, you
know, I don't know if you'veseen that movie.
I don't know else.
(44:37):
Six, seven, right?
And it's like, you know, becauseuh, you know, we'll go to the
the wifey families and you know,I'm I'm kind of the fun uncle.
I get to be the fun unclebecause I get to go home and I
don't we don't have kids, right?
So um, you know, so we get tojoke around and you know,
someone says six, and I'm likeseven, and then the kids start
doing it, it's hilarious, right?
(44:58):
But uh, you know, you got I'msure if you go some somewhere
you totally else and you dothat, they're gonna just look at
you like, what are you doing?
You know, or if you look at anadult and do it, yeah.
I'm sure some adults don't know,but they have kids, I'm sure
they do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (45:12):
So they know, yeah.
That was a weird, that was aweird cultural flash point.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
All from a TikTok.
Yeah.
Um now, you know, you talk aboutinvisible cultural rules, right?
Um, you know, what's a what's anexample of one, you know,
reverse where you know animmigrant is coming into America
that they might not know?
SPEAKER_04 (45:39):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of those.
Um trying to think of one.
I think that for a lot of peoplecoming to the United States, um
and it it it depends wherethey're coming from too.
Like there's big clusters ofdifferent cultures.
So for some people, dependingwhere they're from, it may not
(46:01):
be an issue.
But um like when you first meetsomebody and they're really
friendly and really warm, right?
Americans, especially whenyou're first meeting each other,
you're like out in public,you're saying hello, how are you
today?
Uh Americans like to express umkindness through like this
(46:24):
warmth, which is expressiveness,right?
And so this is one one of themany cultural values that I talk
about, where like neutral, likea neutral face is where you
don't show anything on yourface.
You're just kind of like verystoic and you kind of keep
everything inside.
And Americans are very, likevery warm, very expressive,
(46:48):
especially at first.
Um, and a lot of times arewilling to share a lot of
information early on, like I'mgonna tell you about my family
and my grandpa and my grandmaand stuff like that.
And the small talk, right?
And so the warmth of anexpressive conversation and um
(47:11):
talking about like certainfamily or like personal things,
um that comes across as likesort of aggressively friendly to
some people.
Um and so for some immigrantscoming to the United States, it
can feel really fake.
Like you you're not really thisfriendly, like this is just a
(47:34):
fake like montage, like I don'teven know.
Like this is not real.
Like whatever you're doing isnot real because the you don't
have like you when you firstmeet somebody, you put up
barriers and you're verytight-lipped and you don't
communicate this way.
But Americans do.
And so it may sometimes it mayconfuse people.
(47:55):
Like, why are they being sofriendly?
They must really want to be goodfriends with me.
And that's not it.
It's small talk, right?
And so then they get confusedabout well, why am I not best
friends with this person now?
Like, because then we justtalked about like our families
and our history and stuff likethat.
Um, but then Americans will walkaway from that, you know what I
mean?
Um, and so it's sort of um butyou know, we're friendly, you
(48:21):
know, we want to be friendly, wewant to be warm, we want to be
welcoming, and so that's how weshow that.
And that's not that that's youknow, the effective nature, the
warmth is definitely that existsin some places, but not all
places, and it can be veryconfusing.
SPEAKER_00 (48:39):
Yeah, and it depends on where you're going.
Like so I'm from Philly, yeah.
Um a little different here insome spots.
Uh and even me, like, and I, youknow, um I went to I went to
Alabama um for for a work trip.
And uh, you know, uh I'll neverforget this.
Me and one of my coworkers werewalking down one side of the
(49:00):
street where uh we have our ourbags for the event, and someone
across the street saw us andjust started waving.
We don't know this person.
And I I look at my buddy, I'mlike, why the why the fuck are
they waving at?
So you know, like my my firstinstinct wasn't to wave back, it
was what the hell, what's wrongwith this guy?
You know?
(49:20):
Um, but like everyone from thesouth.
A lot of them are very nice.
And uh it's a lot different inthe Northeast.
Uh we're we're a littleapprehensive about people that
are uh too nice or nice off thebat.
You know, we we have a littlebit more of a hard exterior in
some cases.
So I think it's funny that thatdynamic can kind of play a
little bit here too, dependingon what state you're from.
SPEAKER_04 (49:41):
It's true.
And like I think that'sinteresting because you know,
all countries can be like this.
There can be a variety ofdifferent um uh cultural, like
like the the culture presents indifferent ways in different
parts of the of the of thecountry.
So like culture, like the termculture is not like always
national, right?
(50:02):
It doesn't mean like the way Italked about it is not that's
not the place every every singlestate in the union, right?
And even within a state, itmight vary.
Um, but either way, it's a wayto describe culture.
And like the way you describe itis much less neutral, right?
You're not that's not theeffective um warmth.
(50:22):
It's like the neutral umpresentation.
You're not gonna connect withpeople right away.
You're gonna be a lot moredirect communicators, probably,
very straight to the point, um,all that kind of stuff.
So there's, you know.
Yeah, we're different all overthe country for sure.
There's um a lot of underlyingstuff.
SPEAKER_00 (50:43):
Melting pot.
But yeah.
Big old melting pot.
SPEAKER_04 (50:46):
It is, yeah.
It's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (50:48):
Now, uh let's get on to the the the fun stuff here.
You you so you DJ every Sunday.
The language of music.
Yeah.
How do you feel discoveringmusic from other countries has
deepened the way you connectwith people from those cultures?
Do you think that that's helpedyou?
SPEAKER_04 (51:08):
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Um, yeah, I've been doing thatfor uh 13 years.
Um, I used to be on Fridaymornings, but I recently
switched to Sunday afternoons.
Um, so it's been um a big partof my life for a long time.
And sometimes I forget about itbecause I just do it every week,
(51:29):
but um, it does inform a lot oflike how I think about the
world.
Um, I think that because of myshow, and it this is a volunteer
position for my community radiostation.
So this is like a hobby morethan anything, in case anyone's
curious.
Um, KZUM 89.3 FM.
Um, but I'm pretty good atgeography.
(51:53):
So I'm always like, well, what'sthat place?
And then I have to look it up.
Um, and also like knowing whatlanguages are spoken and which
countries, I'm pretty good atthat.
Um, and then when I meet someonefrom another country, I can very
often ask them or like mentionan artist that I like from their
country, and then they're likeimmediately surprised.
(52:16):
Like, wow, how do you know aboutmy the music from my country?
And um I love doing that.
Honestly, it's so much funbecause I it's like a it's like
a demonstration that like I amaware of the world, right?
I am I see things outside of myborders and I value things
(52:41):
outside of my borders, um, theborder of my country.
And um, it shows that I have arespect for their country and
their culture too.
Um, and so I get a lot ofshocked looks sometimes, but
they're also very impressed.
Um, and so I really like that.
And I would say that, you know,since I came back from South
(53:03):
Korea, listening to music fromother countries has always been
important to me, learning aboutdifferent cult countries, like
what's the capital of thisplace, what's the river in this
place, or what body of water,what's the president, like
what's the historical thing?
You know what I mean?
Like the information that we didwe talked about at the beginning
(53:23):
of the show that you can Googleand you can find it out.
That's that is interesting.
Like music is interesting, it'sit's connect it connects us to
each other um when we canconnect over something as
beautiful as music.
Um but it's uh it's really funto to be able to talk about
that.
And also I've gotten so manygood recommendations.
(53:46):
Um, and it's just it's a part oflike my global mindset, I think.
I just live my life always justthinking about the broader
world, right?
So it's for me, it's um it'sjust kind of always there, I
guess.
I'm always just thinking andlearning more about the world.
SPEAKER_00 (54:06):
Yeah, music is weird, it transcends uh
language.
You know, you can listen toanything and it could invoke a
an emotional response, right?
Absolutely.
It's it's it's a wildphenomenon, just music.
Uh in, you know, I could listento a song and it, you know, I it
could take me back to when I was16, you know, and uh I think it
(54:27):
doesn't really matter if it's inEnglish or not.
You know, there's certain thingsthat that uh it'll it'll invoke
into your brain, and who knowswhere in the brain it pulls that
from, right?
We could guess, but I stillthink that we don't know enough
about it.
SPEAKER_04 (54:41):
Yeah, well, and sometimes it's the dancing.
I mean, that's yeah, likesometimes it's just dancing.
You may not not know what'sgoing on, and that's that's the
case.
I play a lot of music in inother languages, but like I love
music you could dance to, andthat's the the beauty of it.
Like just go and dance, youknow.
Everybody, it is a humanexperience, and that my show
(55:02):
that's called the language ofmusic for that exact purpose,
you know.
Like, music is a language thatwe can share as humans, and it's
a really neat thing.
SPEAKER_00 (55:13):
I love it.
I love it.
Now, let's end with this.
Um, if someone's listening tothe show, maybe they're an
expat, they're an immigrantimmigrant to the US, they're
feeling lost or feelingfrustrated.
Um, what's the first thing thatyou'd want them to know?
SPEAKER_04 (55:28):
I'd want them to know that it is absolutely
normal to be lonely, confused,overwhelmed, um, maybe sometimes
depressed, angry, sad.
Um, the experience ofimmigrating to another country,
(55:49):
no matter where you're from orno matter where you go, is a
very complicated and difficultexperience.
Um, a lot of people use the wordculture shock to describe any
like little thing that'sdifferent.
Um, but culture shock isactually quite a difficult um
experience.
Um, and I could do a wholenother show talking about
(56:11):
culture shock.
Um, but it's very painful.
It's a very painful experience.
Um, and anyone who's spent anyamount of time in another like a
lengthy amount of time inanother country knows how bad it
is.
And so if anyone's listening,like that's the first thing I
would say is like whateverwhatever bad feelings you have,
(56:31):
this is normal.
Um, it's hard changing cultures.
It's really, really hard.
So go easier.
Especially if you're doing italone, right?
Oh, 100%.
Even like as a with other peoplearound you, it can be hard
because it's it's just reallyhard.
SPEAKER_00 (56:49):
But it can be a very enjoyable experience, right?
If you if you get through thatinitial uh, you know, crap.
SPEAKER_04 (56:57):
Yeah, well, because it does bring a lot of skills,
right?
It brings the ability to adapt,it brings the ability and the
reward of getting to know otherpeople who are different than
you, but somehow like you'reable to connect through your
differences, which I meanthere's so many really wonderful
examples of that.
(57:18):
And it's a really powerfulthing.
Um, and so I think that thatthat in and of itself is the
reward is getting to know peoplewho are different than you and
connecting with them.
Like, okay, well, you grew up inlike Rwanda and I grew up in the
United States, but here we aretalking about something where we
(57:38):
have in common, and that just isreally powerful, you know?
Like to be able to connect onthe human experience with
someone, even if they'redifferent than you.
So um, the reward of pushingthrough, I think, and and
working through the differencesand being kind and loving and
respectful to different topeople who are different than us
(57:59):
is always worth it.
SPEAKER_00 (58:02):
I couldn't agree more.
And I mean, at the end of theday, that's what makes us human.
Yes.
Right.
Absolutely.
Is being able to just uh bond onnot just uh, you know, language,
uh almost like a molecularlevel.
Yeah.
Right?
We're all we're all humans, youknow.
It's just we're we grew up indifferent areas.
So it's it's it just changes whoyou are to to a certain degree.
(58:23):
But um, look, this was this wasan awesome conversation.
Um, I hope uh someone listens tothis and you may, you know, if
you're an immigrant or an expat,it helps your day a little bit,
right?
Um can you plug away, Renee?
Tell us uh about your companywhere we could find it, if
there's anything that you wantmy listeners to jump to.
SPEAKER_04 (58:41):
Yeah, uh just the website, going beyond
tourism.com.
Um, I have some social mediathat I'm not using too much
these days, but beyond tourismor going beyond tourism, um,
you're gonna be able to find meprobably there talking about
culture um and sort of trying toeducate about culture and get us
(59:04):
to think a little bit more aboutour culture.
So um, and then so I have someservices where I can support,
especially like immigrants whocome to the United States.
I have one particular culturalcommunication skills package
that I offer.
And then I can also supportexpats um and teach them a lot
(59:27):
about cultural um differencesand how to um like tips on how
to how to how to think whenyou're in um and how to approach
culture in a in a new place.
SPEAKER_00 (59:43):
Awesome.
Love it.
Love what you're doing.
Um my podcast is drink a clockpod on all socials, drink a
clock podcast, wherever youlisten to podcasts.
Um, and uh let's do this againsoon.
It was a pleasure.
SPEAKER_04 (59:56):
Indeed.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (59:59):
Absolutely.
You have a great night.
All right.
We are live at a countdown,which is cool.
I mean, uh, new software, newme, I guess.
I I don't, I don't.
It's not really new.
It's they're forcing me to useit.
So here we are with D ScriptRooms.
Thank you, D Script, for ruininga perfectly good thing.
Uh my name's Rob Valenskius.
I am the host of the Trink aClock podcast.
And I have with me ReneeNineman.
(00:58):
Did I say that right again?
You did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good.
Awesome.
All right.
Now, uh, you're the founder ofBeyond Tourism.
You're also a community radioDJ, which I thought was was
pretty cool, right?
Uh in in uh Nebraska.
Yes.
Uh and you're uh currently adoctoral student.
So welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_04 (01:19):
Yes.
Hi, thank you for having me.
And I do have a drink.
SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
So Cheers.
Cheers.
So I like to start every episodeof my podcast with kind of a
background.
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
You know, who is Renee?
Um, what got you to a point?
Now, you know, um, I know atsome point you lived in South
Korea, right?
So take me up into that pointand then we'll kind of discuss
that a little bit because Ithink that's part of your origin
story, right?
SPEAKER_04 (01:53):
Yeah.
Uh I grew up in West Michigan.
Um, it was a very uh homogenouscommunity, and travel wasn't
ever really like encouraged oranything like that.
So after college, when I waslike, I want to go to South
Korea, um, that was sort of uhkind of a strange thing, and
(02:14):
nobody really quite knew what todo with that, including my
parents.
Um and so, you know, I was 22.
What do I know?
Um, and this was definitely likeearly days of this was 2004.
So early days of like theinternet, cell phones weren't a
thing.
(02:34):
Um, and so it was a verydifferent way of like finding
the job, but getting interviewedfor the job to teach English to
kids.
Um, and then like I didn't havea cell phone.
I flew halfway around the world.
My parents, I couldn't confirmwith them that I had gotten
there.
So like they found out like twoor three days later when I was
at my job, and I'm like, Ishould probably like email my
(02:56):
parents or something.
Um, so that that was uh it was ajourney in and of itself to like
get myself abroad.
Um, and I don't know if anyone'sfamiliar with the Peace Corps,
but like if I had known aboutthe Peace Corps, I would have
done the Peace Corps, where yougo off to a country for two
years and you work with the thelocals to build something in
(03:18):
their community together.
Um, but I was really just readyto go out and like explore the
world, and that's what I did.
So you you you didn't want tojust hang out in Michigan?
You know, I love Michigan.
I mean, I live in Nebraska now,but where I grew is is
beautiful.
(03:38):
I I like it, I still like it.
So a lot of people, you know,bash their hometown, and I get I
get that too.
SPEAKER_00 (03:46):
Um, but I I really did like living in Michigan, so
where did I drive to inMichigan?
I was uh I had to drive.
So I work in in the insuranceworld and I had to I I had a
meeting in Detroit.
Okay, and then I had to drive.
(04:06):
Was it uh I stayed, I think, inin uh gay, which I I think is uh
like a mining town or something.
It it was like in between whereI needed to go.
I basically went from Detroitand had to just drive in a
rental all the way up tonorthern Michigan.
SPEAKER_04 (04:25):
Oh, okay.
See, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
Yeah, I grew up in the And I stayed kind of in the
center, yeah, you know,somewhere.
SPEAKER_04 (04:31):
I grew up over here on the west coast.
Okay, so but yeah, it's asurprisingly big state with a
lot of people, so and a lot ofwater.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
Yes, very dense.
There's there's just peopleeverywhere.
Yes.
Um and it's kind of like PA.
So I'm from Philly, and uh itPhilly's just a weird spot
because you know it's a Quakerstate.
So you could go you could be inthe city and you could drive uh
only about an hour and a halfand you'd be in Amish country,
(05:05):
which is I feel like that'spretty unique.
I don't know if there's anyother major city like a like
Philadelphia, which is you knowwhat, maybe a top ten city in
terms of like a populationdensity where you could go from
just a city city to like farmsand doing you know, and buggies
and like they don't drive cars,right?
So it's like it's a it's aculture shock there.
(05:27):
Yeah.
Uh when and it and it's not afar distance.
And it's uh it's kind of um, Idon't know if you could do that
in every direction, but it'spretty damn close, you know.
Um interesting.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a it's uh have you been toPennsylvania?
SPEAKER_04 (05:44):
Um a long time ago for a very short amount of time.
So I don't really have memories.
Yeah, it's uh your trip toMichigan.
SPEAKER_00 (05:53):
It's it's a unique, it's it's definitely a uh unique
state.
Uh because there's just there'sa lot of things that would shock
you or surprise you in incertain spots, you know,
especially even in the city ofPhiladelphia.
Um now let's let's get up tothat point.
So uh what made you well, youknow, what was that determining
(06:16):
factor?
I mean, at 22, you're a kid,which by the way, I grew up, you
know, I'm I'll be 40 this year.
Um it was a it was a pretty cooltime that we lived in.
It was I think it was veryunique because is it was right
before cell phones really startto take off, right?
And you know, it was that timewhen you know you'd have to say
to your parents, hey, they orthey said to you, be home by a
(06:39):
certain time so I know you'realive.
Um if they didn't know where youwere, they're outside the house,
like, you know, Robbie, Renee,like they're yelling for your
name and hoping you're like bythe house.
Um and that was just the worldwe lived in.
And I um and now I think aboutit, and you know, I I I text the
(06:59):
wifey when I'm landing, youknow, in the plane, like, hey,
I'm good, I'm alive, we landedfine, you know.
And uh I can only imagine, youknow, what that was like to um I
mean, I guess I got some of itas a kid, but as an adult, I I
wouldn't even know what that'slike, you know.
SPEAKER_04 (07:18):
Yeah, it was interesting, I think.
It cell phones were like barelya thing.
And South Korea is more advancedtechnologically than the US, and
it was then, and I I think itstill is now.
So everybody had cell phones andthey were pretty advanced, like
people were watching TV on theircell phones um in 2005 in South
(07:38):
Korea.
Um, I don't know that it waslike high quality, but the
phones are really nice.
Um, and so that yeah, I think itwas an interesting time.
There were there was theinternet, so there were a lot of
travel blogs, so I could likelearn about um places that I
traveled like through onlinethings, but not like cell phone,
(07:58):
not you know, I wasn't using myphone to navigate.
I still had to like getdirections on how to go from
place to place, like based onlandmarks or maps or something
like that.
So it was a really differenttime.
And so I I mean, I think it's anadvantage that I've been able to
travel like that.
And then also now, obviously, Itravel with a cell phone with my
(08:20):
Google Maps open and I'mwandering around.
You know, it I've I could do itboth ways, right?
And but it was a reallydifferent time for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Yeah, kids listening to this, uh, you know, you
didn't have GPS on your phones.
Google Maps wasn't a thing.
We had to have a Garmin, youknow, or something like that.
And it was a separate devicethat you had like rigged into
your car somewhere, and the mapswere downloaded.
So you might go to, you know,there was no traffic.
(08:52):
It didn't, you know, update youon what was going on.
It just simply told you how toget there.
Because before those, it was mapquests.
Yeah, and you had to print itoff.
You printed your yourdirections, which I used to do.
And and in most cases, if you'reby yourself, you're screwed
because you gotta read thedirections and hope you don't
mess up.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:11):
And then, you know, if you have somebody with you,
they're reading you thedirections, and then you're
hoping they tell you where toturn when you need to turn.
SPEAKER_03 (09:18):
It worked.
It worked.
Pretty well.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
But I gotta tell you, uh, I am a a huge fan of
Google Maps and ways and allthat, and uh being able to know
that there's, you know, I andlook, I've taken the same way to
work, same ways to work 11years.
I'm a I could probably drivethere with my eyes closed.
I always turn Google Maps on tomake sure there's no accident on
(09:45):
my route.
And if there is, then I know topivot, right?
It's just I and I I'd imaginemost people at this point, if
not, have it just automaticallyloaded when you plug your phone
into your car now.
I mean, uh, if you got a carthat's relatively new, you know,
you have Apple Play and you haveGoogle uh whatever it CarPlay
(10:06):
and it just everything justconnects.
Um, you know, my wifey's car,you don't even need to plug it
in.
It connects Bluetooth andautomatically Google Maps comes
up, and I'm like, yeah, I wish II know I I need that for mine.
But that's fine.
SPEAKER_03 (10:18):
What 20 people do.
SPEAKER_00 (10:21):
I know, right?
Um so what's a what's a decisionlike that at 22?
You're a kid.
Um what was that like for you?
Because, you know, not manypeople are just gonna be like,
all right, I'm just gonna moveto a totally different country.
And it's not like you chosesomething glamorous, right?
Like an Italy, a London, youknow, like something like that.
(10:41):
You, you know, you went to SouthKorea, which is even more of a
culture shock because I do thinkthat, you know, South Korea,
Japan, like their cultures andthe things that they do, they're
well, one, they're they'redefinitely way more advanced in
technology with a lot of things.
And I think that they're justthe things that we do here that
we think are normal are askedbackwards in half half the
(11:03):
world, you know.
So what was that decision likefor you?
SPEAKER_04 (11:07):
Um, I don't really, I just knew I needed to do it.
So I had had a um South Koreansuite mate, my freshman year of
college, and then I met anotherSouth Korean, like I had just
met some South Koreans, and Ididn't know this at the time,
but um, there are places inAsia, South Korea included,
where you can usually get a jobteaching English if you have a
(11:29):
bachelor's degree and you're anative English speaker.
And so that's sort of what thatwas it.
That's the rec of therequirements for the job.
So for me, um it was not thathard.
Like I knew South Koreans, theytold me I could get this job.
The company that I worked with,I checked with my South Korean
friend.
She's like, oh yeah, that's abig company in in Seoul.
(11:51):
So, you know, like it was it, Igot it vetted and everything
like that.
Um, it was pretty good pay.
Um, like I, but like somethingin me just like knew that I had
to do that and that I wanted todo that.
Um and, you know, it I had a Iwhen people ask me about that,
my answer is usually, well, Ihad it was really hard, but it
(12:15):
it was a difficult year, but itwas worth it.
Um, and really in a lot of wayschanged the trajectory of my
life.
Um, and like giving me theopportunity to see the world um
and learn a lot about culture,learn a lot, like to study the
language a little bit.
Um, I also visited China,Vietnam, and India while I was
(12:37):
out there.
So I got to see a lot more ofAsia.
Um, and so it was it was tough,but it was worthwhile.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
So yeah, because guess what?
When when you become an olderadult, you're not able to do
that.
You know, you can't just kind ofpick up and be like, you know,
I'm gonna go to Australia today.
Yeah, you know, or next week.
And and I live there for awhile.
Like it's I I think if you areyounger, it makes it makes the
(13:07):
decision.
It's harder because you know, alot of times you don't have the
money, you don't have the means,you don't have the what you
need.
Um, but if you do, it, you know,there I feel like most people
aren't ever like, you know, madthat they did it, you know, even
if they have bad experiences.
Um I think life is part of that.
SPEAKER_04 (13:25):
It's not that it was easy, like it was it was hard,
but it was absolutely worth it.
Um, so yeah, it was it was a agood learning experience for me
at the right time.
And I, yeah, I took advantage ofthe opportunity.
I sowed my wild oats, is what Iwill usually say.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Now, did you know any um Korean?
Did you learn it on the go?
Was it like, did you plan it?
SPEAKER_04 (13:51):
Um, I didn't, not really.
My this my sweet mate, myfreshman year, um, in in the
dorm, she sat down one night andshe taught me the Korean
alphabet.
Um, and so like it was literallythree years after that that I
went to South Korea.
And again, no cell phones.
I didn't know, like there was nolike Duolingo for me.
(14:13):
Um, but like the alphabet, theKorean alphabet is actually not
that difficult.
It's pretty easy to learn.
Um, and so when I landed, like Icould read like the I could
pronounce it, I could like readthings, but I didn't know what
they meant.
Um, I remember that was the yearthat elf came out because I I
landed in like end of November.
(14:33):
And so eLf was everywhere and ithad like ELF was advertised on
all these buses, but they don'thave the F sound in Korean.
So they do the P sound instead.
So it was um, I could read itand it said el t.
And I thought that was reallyfunny.
Um, so I remember that likeriding the limo bus into Seoul,
(14:56):
like my first night.
I was like, okay, I can readsome things because my suite
mate taught me the alphabetthree years ago and somehow I
retained it.
And now it helps me springboardinto learning a little bit more
of the language, and I don'tremember much of it now.
I can still read, but um I, youknow, it's been so many years
and I don't use it, so it'srusty, it just goes away.
(15:19):
But I can still read the outlike the alphabet is like stuck
in my head.
I can read it.
SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
So now, you know, you're coming from Michigan.
Yeah.
In in in America.
Yes.
You go to South Korea.
Yes.
Gotta be an intense cultureshock, right?
Uh and especially, you know,2004, 2005.
Talk a little bit about um, youknow, what what were some of the
(15:45):
things that they did that kindof shocked you?
Maybe there were some thingsthat you did that kind of
shocked, you know, uh just aSouth Korean.
Like is it what what some ofthose things look like?
Um, and I'm sure it might bedifferent now because that was
also 20 years ago, but what wasthat like there?
SPEAKER_04 (16:03):
Well, I was working in a school.
So that kind of what happens isI I worked in a private English
teaching, English languageschool.
And so kids would come studyEnglish after school.
So it was like an after-schoolactivity for them where they
would come and learn learnEnglish.
Um, so this is like kindergartento middle school aged kids.
(16:26):
And what the structure was, Iwould teach and I'd have a
Korean partner teacher.
And so they'd spend like 45minutes with each of us.
Um, and so the setting where Iworked, there were a lot of
foreigners like me.
Um, and so it was pretty open.
And my, you know, my directcontact with the culture was
through my um South Koreancoworkers who were used to
(16:50):
working with foreigners.
Um so I think that, you know,made a difference, made it a
little bit easier for me becausethey were used to me, were used
to Americans and Canadians andAustralians doing weird things.
(17:10):
Um, and they were also verywelcoming and very generous and
very kind to us.
Um, and so that really helped alot.
And I think also probably theylike adapted some of their
behaviors in in that setting tooto make us feel more
comfortable.
Um, you know, they wereinteracting with us, and you
know, we didn't speak SouthKorean very well, so they would
(17:32):
speak in our language.
So that kind of helped too.
Um so I will often use the termbubble, you know, like I I lived
in South Korea, and there werebut I did spend a lot of time in
sort of my Western bubble withmy fellow teachers, um, like
(17:54):
mostly Canadian teachers andAustralian teachers.
Um but I I did work really hardto try to get out of that
bubble.
Um, I tried my best to learnKorean.
Um, and I also tried my best tomeet other South Korean people,
um, do like language exchangeand stuff like that.
(18:16):
So um, yeah, I certainly madeplenty of mistakes.
And I am sure like because youknow, I was 22 years old.
So it's like being a foreigneron top of being young.
Um it was uh, you know, aninteresting time and learned a
(18:36):
lot.
Um, but I think like it thething that I have come to
understand about culturaldifferences, and this is a big
part of like what I talk aboutnow too, is that they people
don't explain them very often.
Um, so one thing that I wastaught was that, you know, there
was the boss, you know, the guyin charge of the school, and
(18:58):
you're not supposed to look yourboss directly in the eye.
So that's like a cultural rulethat they taught me.
Nobody taught me why I wassupposed to do that.
There was no like surroundinglike background or explanation
as to why I'm not supposed to dothat.
But I was very clear, clearlytold, don't look kid straight in
(19:19):
the eye.
That's disrespectful.
I was like, okay, fine, I canlike not do that, but I didn't
know why.
And I was like, I was alwaysworried that there was something
else that I was doing wrong thatwas disrespectful.
Um, and so I just I just didn'tknow.
Um, and so that these things,these cultural differences, um
(19:44):
they're just not explained,right?
And so I wish that some some ofthis could have been explained
better to me.
Um, and I wish that you couldsay that.
I just wanted to see my son ishanging out.
Um so that that was I I don'tthink I think they protected me
(20:08):
a little bit from like full onculture like full-on Korean
culture contact.
Um which was kind of them.
Um, but then also I didn't get alot of like description um about
what it was I was supposed to doand not supposed to do.
It wasn't very in-depth, it wasvery shallow.
(20:29):
Um, and so I kind of like didn'teven know that I was doing this,
but the pat like since I wentabroad, I've spent a lot of my
life trying to like decodecultural differences and find
ways to explain them.
Um, because I have so manymemories of like, well, just
being confused and notunderstanding what was going on,
(20:50):
and like not being able todescribe, like, I am sure I did
weird, offensive, strangethings, but nobody told me,
right?
Like it just wasn't spoken.
Um so yeah, it was it's hard tosay exactly what what I might
have done wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (21:10):
Um did you ever find out like why it's disrespectful
to look a boss in his eyes?
I feel like for me, and I'm surethis is the American in me, I
feel like it would it it'sdisrespectful to me if they
don't look me in the eyes.
That means they're not payingattention.
SPEAKER_04 (21:27):
That's how I think it's exactly.
So like the concept of notlooking someone in the eye is
really strange, like to showrespect.
So it's like the exact opposite.
And like this is the trick withso many cultural differences, is
that it doesn't make sense toyou like, but I want to show you
respect by looking you straightin the eye, like that is a kind
(21:48):
and respectful thing to do.
Um but it's really it's likemultiple things, but I I d I
have since figured it outunderstand it a little more
deeply.
And just that, um, you know, andand also this also goes to some
of the terms and the learningthat I've done around cultural
(22:09):
differences.
So, you know, hierarchy and umpower distance is uh much
different in South Korea and alot of Asian countries.
And so the concept of like thisperson is high above you or this
person is below you or somethinglike that, hierarchy is really
important.
And then also um how you showrespect to people in the
(22:34):
hierarchy um is also a reallyimportant thing.
And that can change, right?
So if you have, you may havelike this high complicated
hierarchy, which exists in SouthKorea, but other places in the
world they have that as well.
Um, but how you treat thatperson who is high above you is
always different.
So in South Korea, um, you don'twant to look directly at someone
(23:00):
in the eye if they're very highabove you, and it's just a sign
of respect.
So it has to do with like thelike the the power dynamics and
then like the actions thatsupport like how to show
respect.
SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
That's interesting.
Now, now I have a I have aquestion.
So I interviewed uh excuse me, acouple who moved from America to
Japan.
And uh, you know, they told mesomething that was kind of a I
don't not I don't know if it wasa culture shock, but um they
(23:37):
like the work to life balance isis a lot different.
So it's five o'clock, everybodyin the office like you know, for
us, we we just all disperse, gohome.
But everybody in Japan, it'slike everyone's going out,
you're getting drinks, you'redrinking sake.
In a lot of cases, people arejust getting, you know, fucking
(23:58):
loaded.
Yeah.
And then, you know, taking atrain, you know, home and
they're passing out.
And they said it's um theydidn't, you know, it's it's just
different, you know, incomparison.
How South Korea is it?
Is it similar in that?
I don't know if it's just likein, you know, in some of the
Asian countries that they dothat for maybe it's it's kind of
more specific to Japan.
SPEAKER_04 (24:19):
Um, there was a little bit of that.
It wasn't every single day, butwe did have certain times where
we we would go out as a like asa staff, the mixed, you know,
the South Koreans and theWesterners.
And we would hang out and drinkand do um karaoke rooms,
noribangs.
Um, that was super fun.
(24:39):
Um there's a little bit of that,but LA I didn't experience it to
the extent at which I think ithappens in Japan.
But we had a lot of fun, that'sfor sure.
SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Yeah, you know what they they always tell me we
don't have it here, but it'slike the uh um this like the
sushi belts.
I really want to go to one ofthem and I don't know if there's
one.
And you know, they're talkingabout how the sushi just kind of
goes around.
And they said it's pretty cool.
So in Japan, every plate kind ofhas a like a code to it.
Yes, if you take a plate, it'llautomatically, you know, charge
(25:13):
you based on what you grab,which I thought is is pretty
cool.
SPEAKER_04 (25:16):
It is cool.
I've been to a sushi conveyorbelt restaurant in Japan.
Um, and they I've also been inone in Seattle, so they have
them in the United States.
SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Yeah, I heard they're here.
I just wish there.
I you know what?
I bet you if I Google it,there's probably something in
Philadelphia somewhere.
It's possible.
SPEAKER_04 (25:35):
It's not every major city.
Um, it's a pretty niche thing, Ithink, but it's worth looking
because maybe not Philadelphia,but New York City, probably.
But they're just they're prettyfun.
Yeah, like it's just kind of afun place to go.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:50):
I I love me some good sushi.
It's it's you know, it's sogood.
And I'd imagine it's even, youknow, I was and I when I was
having this conversation, I'mlike, I couldn't imagine having
like Japanese sushi.
You know, it's not like sushihere, where like if you're
getting it from Colorado, yeah,you know, they're not doing
their own fishing.
You know, they have to buy thefish, have it shipped in.
(26:11):
It's just it's a totallydifferent experience.
SPEAKER_04 (26:13):
Yeah, you've always gotta experience the food.
And you know, Korean food isstill different than Japanese
food, but like Koreans havetheir own, you know, fresh fish
dishes, you know, which I didn'teat very much when I lived
there.
But, you know, there's whateverthe the the food is, the seafood
(26:34):
is, you gotta you gotta takeadvantage of it in that place
for sure.
And then whatever the food is ingeneral, you just have to try
the local food.
And it's pretty good in Japanfor sure.
And South Korea.
I ate Korean food every singleday.
And 20 years later, I stillcrave Korean food um and love
(26:55):
eating it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:56):
So what's what was you know just some popular
dishes in Korea?
Is it is it um is like morespicy food?
SPEAKER_04 (27:03):
Yeah, Korean food is a lot spicier, especially
compared to Japanese food.
Japanese food is not as spicy,um, but South Korean food is,
although not as like probablythe spiciest food I've ever
eaten is Thai food.
I've never been to Thailand, butlike that's a real that's a
whole nother level that I I havenot been able to achieve.
But I ate everything in SouthKorea, and I really did get like
(27:26):
a high um spicy food tolerance,and still can eat pretty spicy
foods, which I'm pretty proudof.
Um, but this the food is isreally really delicious.
Um, some of my well, likethere's uh you got your street
food, there's uh food calleddakuki, which is like rice cakes
(27:46):
and like spicy sauce.
I love that stuff.
And then kimbab, which is umlike uh a vegetable roll.
It looks like sushi, but it'snot sushi, it's kimbab.
And if you watch K-pop demonhunters, they eat it a lot, they
eat kimbab a lot.
So um it's uh it's pretty fun tosee that.
Um, but yeah, Korean food isabsolutely delicious.
SPEAKER_00 (28:10):
I love spicy food.
Um, but I'm one of those peoplewhere I need to be able to enjoy
it, right?
I don't want to eat somethingthat's so spicy that it ruins
the rest of my day.
Like, you know, I don't I don'twant to eat at like the one time
I had flamethrower wings, and Iyeah, I was probably like 20.
I thought it and I was like, ohyeah, I'll eat one of those.
(28:31):
I took one bite, I was crying, Iwas snotting, it milk didn't
help, and it was the worst, andI was I was like that.
I was like, I couldn't breathefor like 30 minutes.
That's scary.
I don't I don't know why peopledo that to themselves.
SPEAKER_04 (28:46):
I don't either.
I will say Korean food is to methe perfect amount of spicy.
So when I first got there, I waseating everything.
I was like, I'm gonna try that,I'm gonna try that, I'm gonna
try that.
And not all Korean food isspicy, but some of it is.
You just have to figure it outwhich one is and which one
isn't.
And I would, you know, orderthings and I'd be eating it, and
my nose would be running and I'dbe sweating, and I'd just be
(29:09):
like, it is so good, I can'tstop eating it.
I just have to keep eating it.
Um, and so that's what theKorean food is is good.
Like it's very delicious andflavorful.
Um I love me some spicy.
And eatable.
So it's edible, it's not toospicy.
Um, so I highly recommend it toanybody.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Now, what was it like coming home after living
from abroad, right?
So talk about reverse cultureshock.
You know, how did that hit you?
And how do you think thatreshaped kind of who you are?
I was wild.
How long did you stay out in inSouth Korea?
SPEAKER_04 (29:48):
One year.
Okay.
Which is not that long.
A lot of people spend a lot moretime in other places, but it was
long enough to to have anexperience.
But when I came back, it was umit was pretty intense um and
confusing.
Um just very confusing for me.
I like looking back at my timein South Korea, I was just like,
(30:12):
what just happened to me?
You know, because I had finishedcollege and I sort of killed
time for the summer, and then Iwent straight to South Korea.
So for me, it was like, well,now I'm back in the United
States.
I uh like, what am I gonna dowith my life?
What was this experience I justhad?
It felt weird.
Like I definitely felt like notnormal.
(30:33):
Like something's happening withme.
I don't understand my identityanymore.
Like, who am I?
Um, so I asked a lot of reallybig questions.
Um, and this is this is the timewhere I actually started
learning about like culturaldifferences, um, cultural
values.
And I read a few books that justlike changed my brain chemistry,
(30:57):
as sometimes we say these days,um, and helped me like put words
to my experience.
So even just the concept of likepower distance um and like a
direct versus indirectcommunication, um, these types
of ideas and concepts, likedescribing cultural differences,
(31:20):
like I mentioned before, like alot of times people don't like
they can't describe culture,they can't describe it very
well.
And so when I came back and Iwas started reading some of
these books and learning moreabout cultural differences, I
was like just shocked tounderstand, to like understand
and to know that you canactually describe these things.
(31:42):
And it felt really empowering tome.
And I still see all the timepeople like avoiding it because
they don't know how to talkabout cultural differences.
So they just don't talk aboutit, or they just sort of leave
it like nebulous andunexplained.
Like, oh, how can we can'texplain American culture?
It's too complicated.
(32:02):
Like, we can't explain why we dothat.
I don't know.
It's just it's just the Americanway, or it's just the Korean
way.
Um and like when I came back andI started reading these books
and learning and exploring, Iwas like, you actually can't
describe this.
And so again, spent like 20years living.
(32:23):
Uh, well, I lived abroad andthen came back.
I worked with refugees, um,worked in a lot of global
settings.
And I was able to learn more,build more experiences,
understand different cultures,and be able to describe them.
Um, and like to be able todescribe what I was experiencing
and um what was happening.
unknown (32:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
So now that you're back, you know, you you've
you're back, right?
Let's talk about your company,um, you know, which is beyond
tourism.
So talk about um its inception.
Um, what made you think of thename?
You know, what does that mean toyou?
Yeah.
And, you know, what type of gapsare you filling, you know, and
addressing that you you think,and I you've probably at this
(33:09):
point explained it, but um, fillus in on that.
SPEAKER_04 (33:13):
So it was almost two years ago when I kind of had the
idea.
And I think as many as happenswith some people, like the
original idea is not kind ofwhat I'm doing now.
So originally my thought was I'mgonna teach these um these like
these cultural intelligenceskills that I have.
Um, I'm gonna teach these skillsto people who are traveling
(33:36):
internationally, either astourists or for as expats.
Um and so that's kind of how Istarted.
And so the the idea was um likewhen you are out in the world,
you're out traveling.
Um if you're a person who wantsto engage with the world, um
(34:03):
beyond the tourism mindset,right?
Beyond being a tourist.
So you want to connect withother humans, um, not just like
wander around their city andtake pictures, right?
You want to get to know people.
Um, and then like thecomplications that come with
getting to know people from adifferent culture, um, there's
(34:26):
there's a lot of those.
It's it's sometimes difficult toconnect cross-culturally.
So, you know, if you're a personwho wants to connect with other
people beyond being a tourist,beyond tourism, then I can help
you do that.
I can help you learn how toconnect better across cultures.
So that was kind of theinception.
And I did that um for a bit andwith mild, mild success, I
(34:53):
guess, not super a lot ofsuccess.
And so I've decided to kind ofshift and then work with
immigrants who are in the UnitedStates.
Um and you know, I could talkabout that, talk about that in
more depth, but it's not quiteas interesting.
But it's more like the skillsare what's important, right?
(35:13):
The ability to connect withother people from different
cultures.
Because honestly, like if youtalk to any traveler, um that
like the best stories come frommeeting people who are different
from you and connecting withthem on a deeper level.
Um, and I have those stories forsure.
(35:34):
And a lot of people who travelhave those stories too.
Um, and I have mixed feelingsabout keeping this name while
I'm thinking about likeswitching and serving a
different audience.
Um, but um it's the concept isstill there.
Like we're connecting with eachwith each other in a way that's
not tourism is not like thetransactional nature of being a
(35:58):
tourist is not in place.
We are gonna connect with eachother as humans.
Um, so that's that's sort ofwhat I and the dream, and that
what's inspired me to start thisbusiness and keeps me going.
Um, I just think it's reallyimportant is the world is
shrinking.
(36:18):
You know what I mean?
Like we can connect with eachother so easily online, and we
have to be able to understandeach other across these cultural
differences, especially if wewant to achieve goals as a
planet um and live in peace andhelp each other and you know,
enjoy the best of humanity.
Like we need these skills andthese abilities to um to work
(36:42):
across differences.
SPEAKER_00 (36:44):
Yeah, and I think um, you know, technology is a
blessing and a curse.
Yeah.
You know, um, I think that umwith all the technology we have,
you would think that we wouldhave bridged that gap a little
more because I could just Googlestuff.
I can just connect through Zoomwith somebody from another
country and I can havediscussions.
You would think you'd have a lotmore people um that have done
(37:08):
that, but they they don't.
Yeah, you know, they justconnect with the people here,
you know.
SPEAKER_04 (37:13):
And well, it's not it's not a matter of like, let
me just learn a thing, right?
And so, and I I'm a super nerdon this topic, which is why I'm
studying it on a much deeperlevel.
But it's not just about like um,let me learn a thing about this
culture, like that I can't looksomebody in the eyes in South
(37:33):
Korea.
That is that is a part of it,right?
There's certainly a part of itwhere you have to learn about
the differences, but thenthere's also the part of it
where like you have to inspectyourself and understand like
your own cultural programming,right?
I am an American, that is how Iwas raised, and I act a certain
(37:53):
way and I believe certain thingsbecause I'm an American.
And if you don't like even likeyou can learn a ton of stuff
about the world, but if younever come to terms with that,
like and understand I am the wayI am because of my cultural
programming, and then you lookat another person and you're
like, well, they are the waythey are because of their
cultural programming.
(38:13):
And it's not so much like I'm abad person for who my cultural
programming, they're a badperson because of their cultural
programming, but you just likeit's just different, right?
And so to if you see that otherperson in their cultural
programming and you're like,well, that's wrong, that's bad,
then they can look back at youand and think the same thing.
(38:36):
And so the skill is really, andand what I teach is that
cultural intelligence, which issimilar to emotional
intelligence and cognitiveintelligence.
This is a skill, okay?
This is a skill you can getbetter at.
And so it takes likeself-reflection, it takes some
learning, but also takes likethe ability to look at yourself
(39:01):
and understand I am this way bejust because of where I was
raised, right?
And so it's a little, it islearning, but it's also like
self-reflective skills too,which is sometimes hard.
Like, but I thought this was apart of me.
Actually, every this everybody'slike that in the United States.
(39:22):
It's it's just a cultural trait,right?
So coming to terms with likeyour cultural traits and who you
are as a person really helpslike the like it's a mindset
shift about like how I'm gonnaact and interact with people who
are different from me and whohave that different cultural
programming.
I don't know if that makessense.
SPEAKER_00 (39:41):
Yeah.
No, it does, it does.
And you know, it's I think thatwhat you're talking about um
also transcends culture, butalso you can look at it from uh
gender dynamics, right?
It's the same concept, right?
You see a little boy playingwith a doll.
Yeah, you know, and maybe inyour head you're like, oh, well,
don't do that.
You're a man, right?
(40:02):
But that's something taught inour culture, in most cultures,
right?
I think it might be a little bitdifferent today, but I still
think, I mean, you look atgender reveals, you know, blue
and pink, right?
You're not seeing, you know,green and purple, and I'm not
seeing purple and going, oh,that's a boy.
You know, so um I think that uhit does transcend that as well.
(40:23):
And and I I like what you'redoing because I do I do think
that, you know, especially we asAmericans, all right.
Yeah, you look at you need tolook me in the eye here on
YouTube.
We need to get better atself-reflection.
unknown (40:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Okay.
Uh, because not everything is iseveryone else's problem.
Maybe it's you.
So think think about I, youknow, uh I'm I'm pretty good
with being uh with coming outand saying I'm wrong.
Um sometimes there's some thingsI'll I'll some hills I'll die on
for no reason, but the in a lotof cases I'll be the first
(40:56):
person to tell you, hey, I'mwrong.
Um or I'll admit, hey, yeah,let's let's let's talk about
that, right?
So um but I think we've we'vemade strides, but then you know,
we've we've kind of taken someback steps and we've made
strides.
It's like this weird pendulumswing of uh of that.
(41:18):
But what's your thoughts onthat?
SPEAKER_04 (41:21):
I mean, it I like what you mentioned about like
the gender stuff because it's asocial construct, right?
Culture is just a socialconstruct, it's just made up,
right?
We just make it up.
And we make things up that aregood and that are bad, right?
Because just like with the eyecontact example, if South Korea
(41:43):
looks someone in the eyes, it'sbad.
In the United States, it's good.
These are social constructs,there's absolutely no inherent
value in eye contact, bad orgood.
It's just socially invented.
And so, like when it comes to, Ithink Americans, yes, like for
(42:03):
an American to like step backand be like, I'm not gonna, I'm
gonna look that person in theeyes because this is America and
I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.
This is the right way.
And like, okay, like that's howagain, this self-reflection,
like you were saying, it's notthat's not what it is.
Okay, this it doesn't matterthat much.
(42:25):
What matters is are you tryingto show respect to somebody?
Okay.
If you're trying to show respectto somebody, then you should and
they're from South Korea, youshouldn't look them directly in
the eyes, no matter what itfeels like for you.
And interactingcross-culturally, like if you're
adapting and changing yourbehavior, which is what you
should be doing, it does feelweird.
And it felt weird to me to notlook somebody in the eyes.
(42:48):
But that's the point.
Like you have to learn how toadapt, right?
You have to adjust and you haveto learn and you have to like be
like, oh yeah, this does feelweird, but it's it's not a bad
thing.
So I do think that likeAmericans, especially the
individualism is a little offthe charts, right?
Like people just are like, Ithink I know what's right, I
(43:12):
know it's best, what's what's inthe United States is the only
thing that matters.
And so there is sort of thislike narrowing, I think.
Narrowing of what we think isgood and right and like the the
right thing.
Like look somebody in the eye,give them a strong handshake,
and that's good.
You know what I mean?
Like that's sociallyconstructed, it's made up.
(43:35):
Somebody just made the way orthe highway.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (43:39):
So that's that thinking doesn't help.
SPEAKER_04 (43:41):
So I think the social construct thing just
sheds a lot of light on, youknow, like it's all just
invented, and then we assignmoral value to it.
You know what I mean?
And so I think like we all couldstand to let some of that stuff
go, um, and then show each otherthe respect.
That uh we need based on ourcultural uh upbringing, which
(44:06):
for some people is eye contactand a strong handshake, and for
other people it's not.
But let's show each other thatrespect.
SPEAKER_00 (44:16):
Yeah, and it's it's it's different here too.
Like uh is your is your son, ishe younger?
Yeah, he's seven.
So yeah, he okay, so uh he so hemight not be in on this, but
it's like if you were to talk toa kid and you're like, oh yeah,
you know, uh it's like six orseven, and they're like, you
know, I don't know if you'veseen that movie.
I don't know else.
(44:37):
Six, seven, right?
And it's like, you know, becauseuh, you know, we'll go to the
the wifey families and you know,I'm I'm kind of the fun uncle.
I get to be the fun unclebecause I get to go home and I
don't we don't have kids, right?
So um, you know, so we get tojoke around and you know,
someone says six, and I'm likeseven, and then the kids start
doing it, it's hilarious, right?
(44:58):
But uh, you know, you got I'msure if you go some somewhere
you totally else and you dothat, they're gonna just look at
you like, what are you doing?
You know, or if you look at anadult and do it, yeah.
I'm sure some adults don't know,but they have kids, I'm sure
they do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (45:12):
So they know, yeah.
That was a weird, that was aweird cultural flash point.
SPEAKER_00 (45:19):
All from a TikTok.
Yeah.
Um now, you know, you talk aboutinvisible cultural rules, right?
Um, you know, what's a what's anexample of one, you know,
reverse where you know animmigrant is coming into America
that they might not know?
SPEAKER_04 (45:39):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of those.
Um trying to think of one.
I think that for a lot of peoplecoming to the United States, um
and it it it depends wherethey're coming from too.
Like there's big clusters ofdifferent cultures.
So for some people, dependingwhere they're from, it may not
(46:01):
be an issue.
But um like when you first meetsomebody and they're really
friendly and really warm, right?
Americans, especially whenyou're first meeting each other,
you're like out in public,you're saying hello, how are you
today?
Uh Americans like to express umkindness through like this
(46:24):
warmth, which is expressiveness,right?
And so this is one one of themany cultural values that I talk
about, where like neutral, likea neutral face is where you
don't show anything on yourface.
You're just kind of like verystoic and you kind of keep
everything inside.
And Americans are very, likevery warm, very expressive,
(46:48):
especially at first.
Um, and a lot of times arewilling to share a lot of
information early on, like I'mgonna tell you about my family
and my grandpa and my grandmaand stuff like that.
And the small talk, right?
And so the warmth of anexpressive conversation and um
(47:11):
talking about like certainfamily or like personal things,
um that comes across as likesort of aggressively friendly to
some people.
Um and so for some immigrantscoming to the United States, it
can feel really fake.
Like you you're not really thisfriendly, like this is just a
(47:34):
fake like montage, like I don'teven know.
Like this is not real.
Like whatever you're doing isnot real because the you don't
have like you when you firstmeet somebody, you put up
barriers and you're verytight-lipped and you don't
communicate this way.
But Americans do.
And so it may sometimes it mayconfuse people.
(47:55):
Like, why are they being sofriendly?
They must really want to be goodfriends with me.
And that's not it.
It's small talk, right?
And so then they get confusedabout well, why am I not best
friends with this person now?
Like, because then we justtalked about like our families
and our history and stuff likethat.
Um, but then Americans will walkaway from that, you know what I
mean?
Um, and so it's sort of um butyou know, we're friendly, you
(48:21):
know, we want to be friendly, wewant to be warm, we want to be
welcoming, and so that's how weshow that.
And that's not that that's youknow, the effective nature, the
warmth is definitely that existsin some places, but not all
places, and it can be veryconfusing.
SPEAKER_00 (48:39):
Yeah, and it depends on where you're going.
Like so I'm from Philly, yeah.
Um a little different here insome spots.
Uh and even me, like, and I, youknow, um I went to I went to
Alabama um for for a work trip.
And uh, you know, uh I'll neverforget this.
Me and one of my coworkers werewalking down one side of the
(49:00):
street where uh we have our ourbags for the event, and someone
across the street saw us andjust started waving.
We don't know this person.
And I I look at my buddy, I'mlike, why the why the fuck are
they waving at?
So you know, like my my firstinstinct wasn't to wave back, it
was what the hell, what's wrongwith this guy?
You know?
(49:20):
Um, but like everyone from thesouth.
A lot of them are very nice.
And uh it's a lot different inthe Northeast.
Uh we're we're a littleapprehensive about people that
are uh too nice or nice off thebat.
You know, we we have a littlebit more of a hard exterior in
some cases.
So I think it's funny that thatdynamic can kind of play a
little bit here too, dependingon what state you're from.
SPEAKER_04 (49:41):
It's true.
And like I think that'sinteresting because you know,
all countries can be like this.
There can be a variety ofdifferent um uh cultural, like
like the the culture presents indifferent ways in different
parts of the of the of thecountry.
So like culture, like the termculture is not like always
national, right?
(50:02):
It doesn't mean like the way Italked about it is not that's
not the place every every singlestate in the union, right?
And even within a state, itmight vary.
Um, but either way, it's a wayto describe culture.
And like the way you describe itis much less neutral, right?
You're not that's not theeffective um warmth.
(50:22):
It's like the neutral umpresentation.
You're not gonna connect withpeople right away.
You're gonna be a lot moredirect communicators, probably,
very straight to the point, um,all that kind of stuff.
So there's, you know.
Yeah, we're different all overthe country for sure.
There's um a lot of underlyingstuff.
SPEAKER_00 (50:43):
Melting pot.
But yeah.
Big old melting pot.
SPEAKER_04 (50:46):
It is, yeah.
It's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (50:48):
Now, uh let's get on to the the the fun stuff here.
You you so you DJ every Sunday.
The language of music.
Yeah.
How do you feel discoveringmusic from other countries has
deepened the way you connectwith people from those cultures?
Do you think that that's helpedyou?
SPEAKER_04 (51:08):
Yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
Um, yeah, I've been doing thatfor uh 13 years.
Um, I used to be on Fridaymornings, but I recently
switched to Sunday afternoons.
Um, so it's been um a big partof my life for a long time.
And sometimes I forget about itbecause I just do it every week,
(51:29):
but um, it does inform a lot oflike how I think about the
world.
Um, I think that because of myshow, and it this is a volunteer
position for my community radiostation.
So this is like a hobby morethan anything, in case anyone's
curious.
Um, KZUM 89.3 FM.
Um, but I'm pretty good atgeography.
(51:53):
So I'm always like, well, what'sthat place?
And then I have to look it up.
Um, and also like knowing whatlanguages are spoken and which
countries, I'm pretty good atthat.
Um, and then when I meet someonefrom another country, I can very
often ask them or like mentionan artist that I like from their
country, and then they're likeimmediately surprised.
(52:16):
Like, wow, how do you know aboutmy the music from my country?
And um I love doing that.
Honestly, it's so much funbecause I it's like a it's like
a demonstration that like I amaware of the world, right?
I am I see things outside of myborders and I value things
(52:41):
outside of my borders, um, theborder of my country.
And um, it shows that I have arespect for their country and
their culture too.
Um, and so I get a lot ofshocked looks sometimes, but
they're also very impressed.
Um, and so I really like that.
And I would say that, you know,since I came back from South
(53:03):
Korea, listening to music fromother countries has always been
important to me, learning aboutdifferent cult countries, like
what's the capital of thisplace, what's the river in this
place, or what body of water,what's the president, like
what's the historical thing?
You know what I mean?
Like the information that we didwe talked about at the beginning
(53:23):
of the show that you can Googleand you can find it out.
That's that is interesting.
Like music is interesting, it'sit's connect it connects us to
each other um when we canconnect over something as
beautiful as music.
Um but it's uh it's really funto to be able to talk about
that.
And also I've gotten so manygood recommendations.
(53:46):
Um, and it's just it's a part oflike my global mindset, I think.
I just live my life always justthinking about the broader
world, right?
So it's for me, it's um it'sjust kind of always there, I
guess.
I'm always just thinking andlearning more about the world.
SPEAKER_00 (54:06):
Yeah, music is weird, it transcends uh
language.
You know, you can listen toanything and it could invoke a
an emotional response, right?
Absolutely.
It's it's it's a wildphenomenon, just music.
Uh in, you know, I could listento a song and it, you know, I it
could take me back to when I was16, you know, and uh I think it
(54:27):
doesn't really matter if it's inEnglish or not.
You know, there's certain thingsthat that uh it'll it'll invoke
into your brain, and who knowswhere in the brain it pulls that
from, right?
We could guess, but I stillthink that we don't know enough
about it.
SPEAKER_04 (54:41):
Yeah, well, and sometimes it's the dancing.
I mean, that's yeah, likesometimes it's just dancing.
You may not not know what'sgoing on, and that's that's the
case.
I play a lot of music in inother languages, but like I love
music you could dance to, andthat's the the beauty of it.
Like just go and dance, youknow.
Everybody, it is a humanexperience, and that my show
(55:02):
that's called the language ofmusic for that exact purpose,
you know.
Like, music is a language thatwe can share as humans, and it's
a really neat thing.
SPEAKER_00 (55:13):
I love it.
I love it.
Now, let's end with this.
Um, if someone's listening tothe show, maybe they're an
expat, they're an immigrantimmigrant to the US, they're
feeling lost or feelingfrustrated.
Um, what's the first thing thatyou'd want them to know?
SPEAKER_04 (55:28):
I'd want them to know that it is absolutely
normal to be lonely, confused,overwhelmed, um, maybe sometimes
depressed, angry, sad.
Um, the experience ofimmigrating to another country,
(55:49):
no matter where you're from orno matter where you go, is a
very complicated and difficultexperience.
Um, a lot of people use the wordculture shock to describe any
like little thing that'sdifferent.
Um, but culture shock isactually quite a difficult um
experience.
Um, and I could do a wholenother show talking about
(56:11):
culture shock.
Um, but it's very painful.
It's a very painful experience.
Um, and anyone who's spent anyamount of time in another like a
lengthy amount of time inanother country knows how bad it
is.
And so if anyone's listening,like that's the first thing I
would say is like whateverwhatever bad feelings you have,
(56:31):
this is normal.
Um, it's hard changing cultures.
It's really, really hard.
So go easier.
Especially if you're doing italone, right?
Oh, 100%.
Even like as a with other peoplearound you, it can be hard
because it's it's just reallyhard.
SPEAKER_00 (56:49):
But it can be a very enjoyable experience, right?
If you if you get through thatinitial uh, you know, crap.
SPEAKER_04 (56:57):
Yeah, well, because it does bring a lot of skills,
right?
It brings the ability to adapt,it brings the ability and the
reward of getting to know otherpeople who are different than
you, but somehow like you'reable to connect through your
differences, which I meanthere's so many really wonderful
examples of that.
(57:18):
And it's a really powerfulthing.
Um, and so I think that thatthat in and of itself is the
reward is getting to know peoplewho are different than you and
connecting with them.
Like, okay, well, you grew up inlike Rwanda and I grew up in the
United States, but here we aretalking about something where we
(57:38):
have in common, and that just isreally powerful, you know?
Like to be able to connect onthe human experience with
someone, even if they'redifferent than you.
So um, the reward of pushingthrough, I think, and and
working through the differencesand being kind and loving and
respectful to different topeople who are different than us
(57:59):
is always worth it.
SPEAKER_00 (58:02):
I couldn't agree more.
And I mean, at the end of theday, that's what makes us human.
Yes.
Right.
Absolutely.
Is being able to just uh bond onnot just uh, you know, language,
uh almost like a molecularlevel.
Yeah.
Right?
We're all we're all humans, youknow.
It's just we're we grew up indifferent areas.
So it's it's it just changes whoyou are to to a certain degree.
(58:23):
But um, look, this was this wasan awesome conversation.
Um, I hope uh someone listens tothis and you may, you know, if
you're an immigrant or an expat,it helps your day a little bit,
right?
Um can you plug away, Renee?
Tell us uh about your companywhere we could find it, if
there's anything that you wantmy listeners to jump to.
SPEAKER_04 (58:41):
Yeah, uh just the website, going beyond
tourism.com.
Um, I have some social mediathat I'm not using too much
these days, but beyond tourismor going beyond tourism, um,
you're gonna be able to find meprobably there talking about
culture um and sort of trying toeducate about culture and get us
(59:04):
to think a little bit more aboutour culture.
So um, and then so I have someservices where I can support,
especially like immigrants whocome to the United States.
I have one particular culturalcommunication skills package
that I offer.
And then I can also supportexpats um and teach them a lot
(59:27):
about cultural um differencesand how to um like tips on how
to how to how to think whenyou're in um and how to approach
culture in a in a new place.
SPEAKER_00 (59:43):
Awesome.
Love it.
Love what you're doing.
Um my podcast is drink a clockpod on all socials, drink a
clock podcast, wherever youlisten to podcasts.
Um, and uh let's do this againsoon.
It was a pleasure.
SPEAKER_04 (59:56):
Indeed.
Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (59:59):
Absolutely.
You have a great night.
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