The FLAMING HOT Topic of HELL! All Your FIREY Questions Answered!!!

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 3 (01:06):
Another amazing guest show on Eternal Affairs Truth Radio.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
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Speaker 3 (01:16):
Sit back and relax and enjoy the show. Please subscribe
and keep coming back.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
You're going to know God did it.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Hello, folks, and welcome back to Eternal Affairs Media. This
is brought to you by EternalAffairsMedia.com. on EA Truth Radio.
I'm not for sure why my camera is just jumping around,
but we're just going to roll with it because the
audio is working just fine, isn't it, Steve? It sounds
good to me.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
I can hear you.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
So yeah, just keep your eyes closed, I guess, when
you're watching me. Just watch Steve. But yeah, we'll roll
with it. As we know, we're dealing with a lot
of spiritual warfare, and so we'll just, like I said,
we'll just roll with it. I do want to remind
you guys to go to eternal affairs, media.com. Do go,

(02:12):
go over there and check out and see everything. Eternal affairs, media. Also,
if you would please, cause I have my own network
called revolver broadcasting. If you would check out revolver broadcasting.com,
we're on all the same platforms as, as eternal affairs.
Of course, just like rumble, YouTube, Facebook, all the things.
So go and check all that stuff out. I think

(02:32):
you guys will enjoy. a lot of the content that
we have going on there. But the reason we're here
is Mr. Steve Wolber. Now, just a little introduction here.
You know, we all live in wild times right now.
A lot of crazy breaking news around the world, and

(02:54):
it can be a frightening or an exciting time to
be alive, depending upon what side you're on. This is
not a political battle, but a very deep spiritual one,
And today we're going to dive deep into that discussion.
We can't fight over politics all day, but if we
don't have our eternal affairs in order, none of it matters.

(03:16):
Where do we go after we cross over to when
we leave this world behind? I'm Joshua Cummins, and I'm
a host over here at Eternal Affairs Radio, and today
once again, this is brought to you by eternal affairs, media.com, uh,

(03:36):
faithfully publishing the truth powered by the truth for 16
years since 2010. Um, our guest today, Steve here, he's,
he's been, uh, uh, fighting, uh, um, this enemy or
for a lot. And, uh, and, uh, this is, um, I, I,

(03:57):
I pray we don't have any, any technical issues outside
of what I'm dealing with right now. But Steve Wilberg
is a television producer, radio host, and international speaker who
directs White Horse Media and has authored over 40 books
on various Bible topics, including Be Wise With Your Money
in These End Times, End Times Health War, and The

(04:20):
Hot Topic of Hell, which is exactly the topic of
our show today. The Hot Topic of Hell, Where Do
We Go After We Die? Does hell last eternally? And
so much more. Welcome to the show again, Brother Steve.
So glad to have you here. But also, just before

(04:40):
we get into this conversation, as we discussed pre-show, I
would really love to get into a prayer over our session.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Sure. Yes, Joshua, that's always... The best thing to do
is to pray. I appreciate your having me. And you
mentioned some technical difficulties.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Curtis and I, who you know is also part of
your network, he and I have tried many times to
discuss this topic during a live show. And for some
strange reason, every time we try, something technical just stops
that from happening. And so if we... today we can

(05:23):
do it by God's grace. It'll be an answer to prayer.
And as you said, we are in spiritual warfare and
I certainly believe that. And God wants his word to
be heard and we need to, you know, defeat the
devil by his grace. That's his plan. So let's pray together.
We'll just pray for everybody that watches this and that

(05:44):
God will be glorified and that we'll have a good, friendly,
enlightening discussion. Heavenly father, In the name of Jesus, we
come to you in prayer. Thank you that I can
spend this time with Josh. We just met. We don't
really know each other, but we both believe in Jesus,
and we are privileged to be part of your work.

(06:07):
And we pray for the Holy Spirit to guide us.
We pray for the holy angels to hold back Satan's forces,
that nothing will prevent us from having this discussion. And
that people will be blessed and enlightened and led to
study more deeply the word. And we pray these things

(06:28):
in Jesus name.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Amen. Amen. And amen. All right. Well, Steve, first, first
of all, I know that we're going to dive into
this topic, but I kind of want to, because we,
like you said, we don't know each other all that well.
So I kind of, I kind of want to know
a little bit about, you know, I know that I
listed off there in the introduction. some of the things

(06:50):
that you do, but could you expound on some of
the things that you, in fact, have your hands in,
including Whitehorse Media? Sure.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
And I'm just curious, by the way, when you see
my screen, does Whitehorse Media look backwards or forward to you?

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Perfect.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Looks perfect. Great.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
So, yeah, a little bit about myself. I'll give you
the short version. I was born in 1959. in Los Angeles.
I grew up in a Jewish home. We were not
a religious home. We were cultural Jews entirely. We didn't
go to the synagogue. We didn't go to church. We

(07:32):
didn't do really hardly anything that is really is connected
to Judaism. I grew up in Southern California in the
Hollywood Hills with my mom, my dad, my brother, my sister,
and my aunt. And we were a a good family.
You know, we didn't do anything major that was wrong.
But we, like I said, we weren't believers. And so

(07:55):
I didn't know anything about the Bible. When I say
didn't do anything major wrong, when I got into my
teen years, all that changed. So in my teenage years,
I just got pulled in and seduced into the Hollywood,
North Hollywood lifestyle, started smoking marijuana when I was 14.

(08:17):
Started snorting cocaine, taking LSD a little bit later. Got
involved with the nightclubs and going down into Hollywood on
Sunset Boulevard and just doing a lot of things that
were definitely not good. And I had never read the Bible.
So in my late teens, I started running into Christians

(08:38):
in strange places. And they started telling me about Jesus.
And eventually, when I was 20 years old, I picked
up a Bible for the first time in my life.
I'd never read it. I started reading. Eventually, I learned
about Jesus and his suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Somebody gave me a book on the life of Christ,

(09:00):
and I read that book. And when I got to Gethsemane,
that's what really, the Holy Spirit just reached me, reached
into my heart and showed me that Jesus was my Messiah.
He was my Savior. He loved me. He was suffering
in the garden for my sins and the sins of

(09:20):
the world. And then after that, I read about his
trials and his being beaten and whipped by the Romans
and standing before Herod and Pontius Pilate and the Jewish
Sanhedrin prior to that and being crucified on a cruel
cross outside Jerusalem. And now he died. He said, it

(09:44):
is finished. He cried out, it is finished. It's done.
And as I was learning and reading, the Holy Spirit
just revealed to me that what Jesus had finished was
he had paid the price for my sins and for
the sins of the world. world. And then he died.
He was buried. And then on the third day, he

(10:05):
rose from the dead. And then he went to heaven.
And I learned as I kept reading that someday he's
going to come back again. And so I got on
my knees in a dormitory room in 1979. And I
accepted Christ as my savior. And that was 47 years ago.
And it's been a long journey. I'd never planned on

(10:27):
being a minister or being in the ministry or being
the director of White Horse Media or writing books or
giving seminars, doing podcasts. All of this has been the
Lord's leading. And he's led me. He's blessed me. I
have a family. My wife's name is Kristen. We've been
married for 26 years. Our son, Seth, is 21. Our daughter, Abby,

(10:48):
is 18, and I am a blessed man. We now
live in Tennessee. White Horse Media is a growing ministry.
God has led me to write a lot of books
on a lot of topics. Some of these are controversial topics,
but I am a strong believer in this book, in
Jesus Christ and salvation by his grace through faith and
in the power of the Holy Spirit to help us

(11:10):
to do God's will in these challenging end times. So
I also like to garden. I like to exercise. I
like to read. And so that's a little bit about me.
Why don't you just give me a nutshell version about you?

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Oh, well, I wasn't expecting that, but certainly I can
do that. Sure. Well, as you can see, my name
is Joshua Cummins. I was born in Indianapolis, Indiana. I
was born in the 80s, so I can tell you
my perspective comes from an elder millennial. perspective. A lot

(11:47):
of times I get separated from my generation though, because
I tend to lean a little more Gen X with
my brashness, I guess is what I should say. But
came up pretty well, pretty well, humble beginnings. We didn't
have a whole lot of money growing up, but we

(12:08):
always had food on the table. Mom and dad always
made sure there was food on the table and that
there was a roof over our heads. Um, we did
have to move a couple of times, but we spent
most of my growing up, uh, days, uh, any in, uh,
you know, inner city, Indianapolis, uh, little area called twin air. Um, and, uh, yeah,
it was, uh, it wasn't, it wasn't an easy upcoming, uh,

(12:33):
especially my teen years. I, um, my, my parents, uh,
saw me as, uh, quite an innocent, uh, kid and,
and And that's good that they saw me that way.
But when I was in my teen years, I was
quite a violent young man. Even though, you know, church
was not a choice growing up, you know, mom and

(12:55):
dad always made sure that we were in church or
both grandmas made sure that we were in church and
had this, you know, Baptist influence and Pentecostal influence. With
mom and dad, it was more of a Baptist influence.
Both grandmas took us to church. It was more Pentecostal.
So you could.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, probably Baptist Pentecostal.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, it's either sit down and be quiet or get
as loud as possible, right? And so, yeah, it's quite
a dichotomy of understanding and belief. But it was seven
years old. I remember an evangelist. Her name was Pepper.
She'd come in to one of my grandmother's churches, and
she was explaining Jesus to me and his sacrifice. And

(13:35):
it was like it clicked that day. And I knew
what I had to do. I won't say that I
didn't backslide. As I told you, my teen years, I
was a violent young man, and I'll leave it there.
But I did understand I needed Jesus and that I
needed to confess whatever I had done up to that point.

(13:57):
And that conviction did carry with me even during those
teen years. As a matter of fact, no matter how
crazy things got out of hand, I would still carry
the words of the Bible with me. Um, and I
remember several arguments with teachers, uh, over being able to, um,

(14:18):
talk about the Bible in church. I mean, in, in,
in school in, uh, but after, after school and everything, uh,
you know, uh, a lot of different, a lot of
different jobs, but, uh, the, the short of it is, uh,
eventually I got to where my real calling was because
I wanted to be a musician for many years and
that didn't work out. Um, but, I ended up doing

(14:43):
this podcast company called revolver broadcasting, and it's been the
biggest blessing in my life. And, um, it's where God
has been pointing me. And then now I'm working over
here at eternal affairs and, uh, uh, as well. And, and, uh,
I think that that's, uh, what God wants. He wants, uh,
he wants me to, um, continue down this road of, uh,

(15:04):
talking with folks and, uh, doing Bible study as we do, uh,
Monday through Saturday over there on my channel, revolver broadcasting,
we do, um, all kinds of things. And, and I
want to perpetuate that culture, that culture, uh, that the
66 books of truth we know as the Holy Bible, uh,

(15:24):
gives us, uh, and, and put into, into all aspects
of life. So when we're looking at, um, everything within
this world, I want to look at it through a
God's God's lens, right? Whether it be our faith, our family,
our politics, all the things. And, um, so that's, that's, uh,
Kind of me in a nutshell.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Got it.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Married for 22 years to a wonderful woman.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Do you have children?

Speaker 3 (15:50):
No, we just got two really good dogs.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, my wife and I, before we had our children,
we had a little dog. He was like our kid.
So I can totally relate. And once you have kids,
you'll really... You'll still love your animals, but you'll love
your kids more. So hopefully that'll be something that you

(16:17):
experience in the days ahead. So anyway, the topic of hell,
growing up with a Baptist background and Pentecostal, I don't
know if you have struggled with that topic or, you know,
a lot of people don't talk about it. There's, you know,
we focus on God's love and John 3, 16, but
a lot of people don't. want to get into the

(16:39):
hell topic. I do a lot of podcast interviews, and
just recently somebody booked me on their show, and in
the show notes they said, I don't want to talk
about hell. That's really not my thing. So they wanted
to talk about something else. But I have studied this
topic quite extensively. As you know, I have a little

(16:59):
book called The Hot Topic of Hell. I've just done
a deep dive, Old Testament, New Testament, teachings of Jesus,
I've concluded that a lot of what is commonly understood
really isn't completely biblical. You can ask me whatever questions

(17:19):
you've got. I've got a whole stack here of notes
and Bible verses in my head and in my heart
and wherever you want to go with this. or at
least how you want to start out. But I will
let you know, and I think I mentioned this before
we went live, that my views are somewhat different from

(17:40):
what is mainstream in many areas. But I'm happy to
explore this and to try to show that what I
believe is biblical, that it makes sense. that it is
encouraging and enlightening. And just to let everybody know that's
watching this. I definitely believe I'm not a liberal by
any means. I believe in the Bible, in the word

(18:02):
of God. I believe in Jesus Christ. He's the only
way to heaven. I believe that sin is very real
and it's terrible.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
It's awful.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
And that I believe God is merciful and just, and
that he will punish sin and he will do it justly.
He will do it fairly and, And that includes the
devil and his angels and every human who doesn't repent
and come to Jesus and receive his forgiveness. And so

(18:34):
I think, you know, I'm sure we have those things
in common that we believe. And I do believe in hell.
I believe there is a real hell. I'm not one
of those who thinks that hell is just, you know,
allegory or I don't spiritualize it in a way. I
believe the statements of Jesus about hell. I believe what
the book of Revelation says about it. I also know

(18:57):
that there's different words for hell in the New Testament,
and those words don't mean the same thing. And I
think a lot of people, when they think about hell,
they don't really, you know, maybe there's a few Bible
verses that they believe, that they've read, they've heard, they've
heard preached, and they accept that. the idea that there

(19:19):
is a hell, but they haven't really thought a lot
of that through as far as, you know, really unpacking
the issue. What does the, what do, what do the
different words mean? And the question of when does hell
take place? How long does it go on for? Who
is there? You know, I think all of these are important,

(19:40):
important issues to, to look at. And I just, just
to kind of, you know, maybe get the wheels turning, Uh,
a lot of people have this, what we could call
the traditional view of hell is that as soon as
a lost person dies, they immediately go under the ground

(20:01):
right away to a place of burning where they're burning. Uh,
and I found it very interesting that, A lot of
aha moments as I studied this topic, and this may
shock you or some others that are watching this, but
when you look at the writings of Paul, and I
don't just believe in Paul, I believe in James and

(20:23):
Peter and Jude and Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as well,
all the Bible. But to me, it's very significant that
when you look at the writings of Paul, he wrote
13 of the New Testament books. The traditional view that
when a person dies and breathes their last breath, an
unsaved person that they immediately go down somewhere under the ground,

(20:47):
you know, somewhere down there. We don't know how far
or people don't know how far, but they go into
a place of burning and they're, you know, they're burning
alive right now. I found that it's very significant that
Paul never taught that. When you look at all of
his writings, whether it's Romans, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians,
2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, there's nowhere in any

(21:12):
of his writings where he taught that when an unsaved
person dies, he immediately goes under the ground to a
place of torment. That is just foreign knowledge. to his, uh,
his theology. Now he certainly did talk about fire, like in, uh,

(21:33):
second Thessalonians, he talked about Jesus coming with flaming fire
to execute judgment on those who don't know God. And
there's numerous places where Paul did talk about, about fire
and judgment and punishment, but he didn't, he didn't say
that when a person dies, they just go down under
the ground and they're being tormented. That's, um, Not something

(21:57):
that's in any of the Pauline letters.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
It's interesting to me, as I've been reading what I've seen,
it seems like judgment would come first. They're standing in
the presence of God first. There's some folks that I've

(22:23):
heard that they believe that everybody is still and won't
actually go up or down until after Judgment Day, which
seems foreign to me. But yeah, there's a lot to
be uncovered with this topic. That's right.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
There's a lot of clarification. A lot of clarification. And
people have a lot of questions. And I know that
people have questions about You know, the teaching that if
you're not saved, you're going to go somewhere and you're
going to endlessly, eternally, consciously be suffering. And there's a

(23:10):
lot of people that really wrestle with that idea, especially
people who, especially Christians who have unsaved relatives. So my mother,
she's dead now. But she was not a Christian. She
didn't believe in Jesus. Now, it's possible that right in
her mind as she was laying on her deathbed and

(23:31):
I was right there with her and she couldn't talk.
She was in sort of a coma, but I think
she could hear me. She could hear me. I know
she could because she was responding a little bit. And
I told her, you know, John 3, 16, God so
loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,
that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life. and I whispered in her ear and I

(23:52):
told her, mom, I hope to see you in heaven.
You know, I hope you'll believe in Jesus and that
I'll see you in God's kingdom. And she whispered back
to me, I told her, I loved, I love you.
And she whispered back and said, I love you too.
I could hear her say, I love you too. Even
though she was, you know, largely brain dead, she could
still hear me enough to say that. And so, um,

(24:17):
to be honest with you, I have a very hard
time with the idea that my mom, who was not
really a bad person, she didn't do a lot of
bad things. You know, she wasn't a, you know, she
didn't use drugs and she didn't hurt people and she didn't,
you know, just by average standards, she was a decent person.

(24:40):
You know, she had her struggles, of course, but I
just have a real hard time thinking that a loving
God who made my mom and who sent his son
to die on the cross for all of her sins
and who is going to judge her fairly and justly
based on her life, that during the 70 or so

(25:01):
years of her life, because she was Jewish and she
didn't find her way to accept Jesus as her Savior,
that she's going to endlessly continue to suffer somewhere in
some place. I have a real hard time with that.

(25:21):
And I think a lot of people do. And I
know there's a lot of people that have given up
their faith in God entirely. They don't believe in God.
They don't believe in the Bible because they've been, that's
what they've been taught. And so, you know, I think
that there's a lot more that we need to look
at to try to unravel this topic that makes a

(25:43):
lot of sense. And it's very biblical and also defends
the justice of God, but that God's justice is fair
and it is just. And as you've probably heard the expression,
the punishment needs to fit the crime. And I believe
that God's punishment will fit the crime. He's not soft
on sin by any means, but neither is he going

(26:07):
to be excessively cruel to people that don't deserve that.
So maybe I can just share with you, since I've
brought that up, let me just share with you a
few Bible verses. And first, let's just talk about the
idea of fire. So as I mentioned, there's a couple
different words for hell. There's actually three words. There's two

(26:28):
that are used a lot in the New Testament. One
word is Hades, which when you read the context, actually
literally means the grave, that people, when they die, they
go to the grave. And then the other word is Gehenna,
which has to do with fire, a place of burning.
And I certainly do believe in a real fire. And

(26:48):
maybe I'll just show you a couple texts. I don't
know if you've got your Bible there.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, I got my digital Bible. While you're searching, though,
real quick, I am going to try to reset my camera.
Because as I'm looking at it, I realize that my
video is like 10 seconds behind you. And it's, it's, it's, uh, yeah,
it's kind of driving me up the wall. You'll still

(27:14):
be able to hear me just fine. Uh, but I
reset my camera here just a minute.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
But, uh, yeah. Um, I can still hear you and everything. So, uh,
you said, uh, what was the. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Matthew 13, Matthew 13.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
You're going to reset it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah. I'm still here just to, That's okay.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well, at least we've had much bigger technical problems in
the past when we tried to cover this topic. We've
never been able to pull it off. So we've made
a lot of improvement.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah, I'll get the camera working here shortly.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Okay, well, while you're doing that, I'll just keep on
going about Matthew 13. So in Matthew 13, Jesus tells
different parables. And there's one parable where he talks about
a farmer who sows seeds in his field. And then
there's the wheat, the wheat seeds that grow up and
the weeds that grow up.

Speaker 3 (28:13):
Remember that story?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
Yes, I do.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, the wheat and the weeds. And so then there's
finally the world of servants say, Master, should we pull
up the weeds? And he says, no, let them both
grow together until the harvest. And so then at the
end of the parable, He starts explaining what this means,
that Jesus is the farmer. And he talks about the

(28:41):
good seed represent the children of the kingdom. The weeds
represent the people of the devil, basically. And he said
in verse 39, he said, the enemy who sowed them
is the devil. And then he said, the harvest is
the end of the world. And the reapers are the angels.
And then Jesus said, as therefore the weeds are gathered

(29:03):
and burned in the fire, so shall it be at
the end of this world. So, according to this parable,
the fire that burns up the weeds, which represent the
children of the devil, this happens at the end of
the world. And I believe that.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Now, there's another verse. It's stated again, I know, with
the separation of the chaff and the wheat.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, he says, we could
just read the next verse, actually, verse 41. He says,
the son of man shall send forth his angels and
they will gather out of his kingdom all things that
offend and them which do iniquity and will cast them
into a furnace of fire. And there will be wailing

(29:48):
and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth
as the son in the kingdom of their father. He
who has ears to hear, let him hear. So Jesus
definitely taught there's a real fire. There's a separation between
God's people and the devil's people. And he says in
this verse that the fire is coming at the end
of the world. Now, another verse that goes along with

(30:10):
that is in 2 Peter. 2 Peter 3 talks about
the day of the Lord. We look at verse 10.
2 Peter 3, verse 10. Peter said, but the day

(30:32):
of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
And this is obviously ahead of us. This day hasn't
come yet.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
In which the heavens will pass away with a great
noise and the elements will melt with fervent heat and
the earth also and the works that are therein shall
be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall
be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be
in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hastening

(31:02):
to the coming of the day of God, wherein the
heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements
shall melt with fervent heat. And then verse 13 says, nevertheless, we,
according to his promise, we look for new heavens and
a new earth wherein dwells righteousness. So just like Jesus said,
the fire is at the end of the world. So

(31:22):
Peter said that the day of the Lord comes and
the fire will occur. And this fire is, it's global.
This fire burns up the heavens, which is not where
the throne of God is, but it's the atmospheres, the pollution,
the smog. And it also, it says the elements will

(31:42):
melt with fervent heat and the earth also, and the
works there that are therein shall be burned up. So
the whole, this whole planet, And the atmosphere is going
to become one gigantic, you know, conflagration of fire. And
then when the fire is over, it says in verse

(32:06):
13 that God is going to remake the heavens and
the earth. We're going to have a new heaven and
a new earth wherein righteousness will dwell. So again, we
have fire occurring at the end of the world. prior
to God remaking this planet, uh, so that it was,
it'll become like it was in the beginning.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Now, if you go to Rebbe, just real quickly. Uh, no. Um,
so we're looking at the, the recreation of earth. Um,
I'm a big, like science geek too. So, um, science
just proves God.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Right.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
But when you talk about, uh, the, the burning up of,
of the heavens and the earth now, um, A great
cataclysm could certainly do this, much like they described an
asteroid hitting the Earth and it completely... Well, that would
cause a cataclysm of fire around the entirety of the Earth.
And it would take a time necessarily for that to

(33:05):
come back around, but all the elements of life are
still here. Now, it says it would be consumer fire,
but it doesn't say it would be completely dismantled and
done away with, so My assumption is, and this is
just based on what we believe that we know about

(33:27):
asteroids and their effects on planets and things like that,
is that if something were big enough, just like they
say happened with the dinosaurs, which I don't know whether
it did or not, but if it did, if in
fact it did and did the way that they say
it did, over time, because of all the elements of
life still being here, a new earth would be created.

(33:51):
And I'm sure that that could be, that timetable could
be moved up or slowed down because God is, you know,
time is irrelevant to him, of course. That idea lines
up with what we know about science, right? That a
fire can completely cleanse a planet and then if all

(34:12):
the elements of life are still there, there's a whole
new atmosphere that can be created over time. given the
right patterns of gases, bacteria, and other things. So that
stands to reason. That actually absolutely stands to reason. So
even those who would deny that happening would have to

(34:36):
acknowledge that if it did, it would happen in such
a way that life could team again, once again, on
a new version of Earth.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Well, would sin continue to exist if that were to happen?

Speaker 3 (34:57):
I don't see how if it's burned out completely.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, yeah. And I don't, as I see God's ultimate
plan is to get rid of sin. He wants to
get rid of the devil. He wants to get rid
of his angels. He wants to get rid of those
who continue to hold on to sin. And if you
look at, I mean, if we accept, I mean, I
believe that God does work through the elements and he

(35:23):
often does work through nature. But there are certainly times
when he does things directly. And so, like, if we
look at Genesis, when it says God made the earth
in six days and rested on the seventh day, on
the first day, he made the light. The second day
he made, I think it was the atmosphere. And the

(35:43):
third day he made the earth. The fourth day, the sun,
the moon, the stars. The fifth day, the birds and
the fish. The sixth day was the animals and then man.
And then he rested on the seventh day. And it
says very clearly that God saw all that he had
made and it was very good. So I certainly believe
in the power of God to create. And he did that.

(36:07):
And if we go to the book of Revelation, if
you want to look at chapter 20, we have a
very interesting sequence. That also talks about fire, and also
when we get to chapter 21, talks about the new
heaven and the new earth. So if we look at
Revelation 20, verse 11, and you mentioned a little while

(36:31):
ago that it makes sense that there would be a
judgment before people are punished. And we were talking about
the Apostle Paul, and Paul does say that. In the
wants to die. And after this comes the judgment. So

(36:51):
it doesn't make sense that God would judge people and then,
you know, burn them or put them in, or it
doesn't make sense that he would give people the verdict
and burn people. Like when they die immediately, they go
into the ground and they're burning. And as I mentioned,
Paul never taught that. It doesn't make sense that he

(37:12):
would punish people is as soon as they die without
judging them first, he has to judge them first and
then they get whatever they deserve. And that would fit
with the book of Hebrews. I believe it's chapter nine,
verse 29, or I'm just going by memory where Paul
says it is appointed to man once to die. And

(37:33):
after this, the judgment. So first there's death. And after
that is the judgment. And then it would make sense
that after the judgment, then people would get their desserts.
They would get their, you know, either their rewards for
good or for evil, depending upon the lives that they've lived.
And we find this in Revelation chapter 20. So if

(37:57):
you look at, you got it on your little digital Bible. Okay.
So verse 11, Revelation 20 verse 11 says, I saw
a great white throne, And him that sat on it
from whose face the earth and the heaven had fled away.

(38:17):
And there was found no place for them. And then
he says, I saw the dead. So these are people
that have died, small and great, and they're standing before God.
So now they're basically resurrected. And the idea of resurrection
is taught in many places. Jesus talked about in John 5,
if I can quote it right, 28 and 29. He said,

(38:42):
don't marvel at this for all the time is coming
when all that are in the graves will hear his
voice and they will come forth. Those who have done
good to the resurrection of life and those who have
done evil to the resurrection of condemnation. And Paul taught
that in Acts chapter 24, verse 15, he said there
will be a resurrection of the dead, both the just

(39:04):
and the unjust. And so here in Revelation 20, verse
11 says, Or verse 12, this is a resurrection. I
saw the dead, small and great, and now they're standing
before God. So this is the day of judgment. Like
Paul said, it appointed a man once to die, and
then after this comes the judgment. And here it is.

(39:25):
I saw the dead, small and great, and they stood
before God. And books were opened, and another book was
open which is the book of life and the dead
were judged out of those things which were written in
the books according to their works so this is judgment
day and they're standing before the great white throne and
god is sitting on the throne and they're being judged

(39:47):
according to what they've actually done And then verse 13
describes people who've died in the ocean, like people who
have been eaten by sharks or who have gone down
in shipwrecks. Verse 13 says, the sea gave up the
dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered
up the dead which were in them, and they were

(40:10):
judged every man according to their works. Now, I don't
know what translation you're reading, but I My Bible says
in verse 13 that death and hell delivered up the
dead which were in them. What does your version say
for the word hell?

Speaker 3 (40:27):
I'm an ESV, so it says death and Hades.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Okay, Hades, right. So Hades, as I mentioned, there's two
words for hell. There's Hades, which really is the place
of the dead. It's the grave. And then the other
word Gehenna has to do with the fire. And so
in this verse, you've got.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
Like the word Sheol in Hebrew.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
That's right. That's right. So in this verse, when it
says death and hell, some Bibles say death and the grave.
Some Bibles say death and Hades. Some Bibles say death
and hell, depending on the translation. But the idea is
that this hell in this verse is not a place
of punishment. It's not a place where people are consciously burning.

(41:10):
Like when they die, they go down and they're burning
and then they come back. because it wouldn't make any
sense for people to go down into the ground and
be burning and then come out of Hades to then
be judged. I mean, you're not going to get judged,
you know, after you've been burning for a while, that
wouldn't make sense. So Hades in this text simply means

(41:30):
the grave and they come out of the grave or
out of the sea where they died or out of
the earth where they've died. And then they come up
and then they're judged. And at the end of verse 12,
talking about those who, have been resurrected. And verse 13,
those who have been resurrected from the ocean, both at
the end of 12 and 13, both verses say they

(41:53):
were judged every man according to their works. So the
point is, this is going to be a just judgment,
a fair judgment. And if people have done like people
like Hitler, you know, if Hitler's resurrected and then he
stands before God and he's judged according to his works,
his punishment is going to be a lot worse than somebody,

(42:16):
you know, I hate to even think of it, but
let's say my mom didn't accept Jesus and she's resurrected
at this period and she stands before God. She's going
to be judged justly and fairly for what she's done.
And it's, it's the same with everybody who's, who's not saved.
And so the people that are really bad are going
to suffer more of a consequence. And the people that

(42:38):
are not as bad, they're, they're not going to suffer
as much, whatever, Whatever it is, their punishment is going
to fit the crime. That's the point. So then in
verse 14, after their judgment, it says death and hell
or Hades were cast into the lake of fire. So

(42:59):
there's the fire. So, you know, if you look at,
at least in my Bible, death and hell, hell was
cast into the lake of fire. So hell and the
lake of fire are two different things. Hell, in this verse,
would be the grave, and then so death and the
grave eventually ends up in the lake of fire. And

(43:19):
I think I can build my case that that lake
of fire parallels what Peter said, where he said, the
day of the Lord will come like a thief in
the night, and the heavens... will vanish with a great
noise the elements will melt with fervent heat the earth
and the works will all be burned up that's kind
of like a a big lake of fire the whole

(43:41):
planet uh you know whatever whether god uses natural means
you know scientific means or whether he does it directly
uh however you interpret that it's still going to be
a real a real fire and so this verse says
um Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
And then it says, this is the second death. So

(44:04):
the second death is after the first death. So when
people die today in this world, that's their first death.
And then, so the people that are not saved, when
they are resurrected and then judged, and then they go
into the lake of fire, this verse calls that the
second death. So first death is when everybody dies. Second death,

(44:28):
It's the final death in the lake of fire. And
it says, whoever was not found written in the book
of life, because the names in the book of life
are those who have accepted Jesus and completely been committed
to him. Whoever was not found written in the book
of life was cast into the lake of fire. So

(44:50):
there's this final lake of fire where everybody that is
resurrected and then judged, if their names aren't in the
book of life, then they go into the lake of fire.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
That makes sense. Absolutely. Okay.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
So now when you look at the next verse in
chapter 21, chapter 21 says, and I saw a new
heaven and a new earth or the first heaven and
the first earth. And that's where the lake of fire
was were passed away. And there was no more sea.
So this is similar to what Peter said that the

(45:28):
heavens and the earth are going to burn up. And
then he said, then according to God's promise, there'll be
a new heaven and a new earth. So just like
in second Peter, there's the fire and then there's the
new earth. So we have the same thing in revelation
20 and 21. There's the resurrection. There's the judgment there.
and then their people are punished according to their works,

(45:49):
and then they go into the fire, and then there's
a new heaven and a new earth. Now, when you
go down to verse 4 and 5, and this will
help you to understand more my perspective on this, it
says in verse 4 that God shall wipe away all
tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death,

(46:10):
neither sorrow— sorrow is going to be gone— nor crying— crying will be
gone— Neither shall there be any more pain. Pain is
going to be gone from God's universe for the former
things have all passed away. And the former things were,
you know, the people that were lost, they were resurrected,
they were judged, they go into the lake of fire.

(46:31):
And then it says all this passes away. And then
verse five says, he who sat upon the throne said, behold,
I make all things new. So everything is going to
be made new, just like it was in the garden
of Eden. And then he said to me, right, for
these words are true and faithful. So, Joshua, as I

(46:52):
look at this sequence, we have people dying, and then
they're resurrected, and then they stand before God, and then
they are judged fairly according to their works, what they've done.
And then they and death and hell all go into

(47:12):
this fire, this lake of fire. And then after the
fire is done, then God says, I'll make a new
heaven and a new earth. And in the new heaven
and the new earth, there is no more pain. There
is no more suffering. There is no crying. It's all
gone forever. And then God says, I make all things new,

(47:33):
just like it was in the Garden of Eden. And
so that's the new heavens and the new earth where
God's people will live forever. Like Jesus said in his
parable about the wheat and the weeds, The weeds go
into the fire and then the righteous will shine in
the kingdom of God forever and ever and ever. So
that's kind of the basic outline of what I believe.

(47:55):
I believe it's biblical. It's right there. And so then
the next question we'd have to kind of wrestle with
as well. In the lake of fire, how long does
the lake of fire go on? Does it go on forever?
So people that are lost forever? are burning forever? Like
I mentioned, what would happen to my mom if that
was true? Or does the lake of fire burn them

(48:16):
up so they're gone and then God has a clean
universe like he did in the beginning in the Garden
of Eden? It was a clean heavens and earth. So
that's another question that we have to wrestle with. And
I've got Bible verses to support my beliefs on that.
And but so far, are you, are you tracking with me?

Speaker 3 (48:37):
Tracking with you. And I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about all
the things that I've read in, in, in recent history. And, um, we, we've, well,
we've traveled through, uh, in our Bible study, uh, in recent, uh, months,
we've went through the gospels of course. Um, and, uh,
just finished up acts today. So real familiar with a

(48:59):
lot of things that Paul said, um, In prison, out
of prison, all that stuff too.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, he lived an amazing life. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I'm about to revisit Romans again because I feel led
to keep going back into that book. But I think
you said it really well earlier when, when, when you
talk about, uh, churches and pastors and, and, and things
like they tend to skirt away from the topic of

(49:28):
hell because it's like, oh no, no, no. Cause I
don't want to answer all the questions that congregation might
have or, oh no, no, no. This will scare new
believers away. Now I didn't, I didn't grow up with that,
with my parents' church. I had a great pastor. His
name was pastor Don Smith. And, uh, he was at
the lighthouse community church, uh, in Indianapolis and, um, God

(49:51):
rest his soul. He passed away, um, uh, from COVID, but, uh, um,
he never shied away. He never shied away from the
topic of hell. Um, some people would, would describe him
as a fire and brimstone type of preacher. Um, But
when I would visit other churches and other places, I

(50:13):
would always go, how come they don't ever talk about
what Brother Don talks about? He visits this subject regularly
at least once a quarter. And he understands that this
is a destination that we're all meant for. Romans 3.23
says very clearly, for all have sinned and fallen short

(50:33):
of the glory of God. Well, then that means our
destination is Without Jesus, as you said, is hell. That
is our destination.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
That's right. It's the lake of fire. And so, and
I certainly believe that. I also believe that, so, you know,
I'm not soft on sin. That's for sure. I believe
sin is a horrible thing. Sin is what brought Jesus
down from heaven. Sin is what crucified him on the cross.

(51:05):
All the suffering he went through is because of sin.
And I believe, Joshua, that God's plan is not to
perpetuate sin forever, but it's to get rid of it.
It's to remove it from his universe. So years ago
when I was first becoming a Christian, I remember hearing

(51:27):
what one preacher believed about hell. He told me that
those who are lost are going to go into this
place of outer darkness and they're going to burn forever
and ever and ever and ever and ever out there.
And when I was just, you know, 20 years old
and I'd never heard that before and I was just
starting to become a Christian, I mean, that terrified me.
I remember going home, driving through Los Angeles after I'd

(51:48):
been to a church where I was taught that, one
of the first Christian churches I'd ever been to. And
I was driving on the freeway through L.A., heading over
to the San Fernando Valley and looking at all these
people on the freeway and thinking to myself, wow, are
all these people going to that, you know, dark place
where they're going to burn forever and ever? And I
got back and I remember going up to my dad's,

(52:10):
in my dad's house where I was living downstairs in
the basement. And I went up to the top floor
of the house and it was, it was later on,
I guess it was evening and he was probably asleep.
And I, I just laid down in front of his
door of his bedroom and I was crying and my
dad opened the door and he, he looked at me,

(52:32):
on the floor crying. And he said, what's, what's happening?
Why are you crying? And I said, dad, I've learned
that if you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to
burn in hell forever and ever and ever. And, um,
you know, I was terrified and he just was shocked
and he didn't, didn't really understand any of that. And
so anyway, uh, as I was wrestling through this, I

(52:53):
met another man at a health food store in, uh,
in Northridge, uh, And we struck up a conversation. I
knew that he was a Christian. And so I asked him,
I said, what do you believe about hell? Because I
was trying to figure this out. And so this is
what he did. He took his finger and he drew
a circle in the air. And he said, imagine this
is the universe. And he said, the universe that God

(53:16):
made used to be a very happy place. God made angels.
He made all these beautiful beings. And it was just
perfect and full of love. And then he said, but
there was one angel named Lucifer, and he became the
first rebel and the first one who brought sin into
God's universe. And sin, he said, is like a black

(53:38):
dot in God's universe. And he just put his finger
there in the air, black dot. And he said, when
it's all over, when the whole battle between good and
evil is over, God is going to erase that black dot.
And so his universe is going to be pure and
clean and happy and full of love once again. And

(53:58):
when he told me that, something inside my head just
went click. You know, that makes sense. It made more
sense than what the former minister or the earlier minister,
when he told me they're going to go into some
dark place and they're never going to stop being tormented.
It just made more sense to my uneducated mind, but

(54:20):
my conscience, it just It just appealed to me that,
you know, the universe used to be pure and then
sin came and God's going to get rid of that sin.
So the universe is going to be pure and happy
once again. That made sense. And of course you can't
build a belief based on, you know, just something feels

(54:42):
good or something clicks. It's got to be based on scripture, obviously.
And so let me, let me share with you a
few more verses that, that, fit this scenario turn to
look at malachi malachi which.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
Is i would say for for viewers and listeners out
there right now if if you're wondering why he's wanting
to go back into scripture this is called testing the
spirits uh scripture is repeated a few times to see
the test of spirits whenever you're whenever you're wondering uh
whether something is is true or not we need to
go back to scripture to test the spirits right that's

(55:17):
right um So that's what Steve is doing here. That's
why he's going back and pulling from Scripture, because he
wants to show you where the truth comes from. It's
coming from this place of truth, the 66 books of truth.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
That's right. And I do it in my book, The
Hot Topic of Hell. What I do is I build
my case. So I know that my view is different
than a lot of people out there who may see
it differently. And so what I simply ask for is,
you know, hear me out and let me build my case.

(55:55):
And then once I do, then consider it. You know,
don't take my word for anything. Just consider it, ponder it,
weigh it out. And then, like you said, test the spirits.
And I'm not afraid of that. I'm not afraid of
people testing what I say. And comparing what I say
with scripture, I mean, I think so far I've built
a pretty good case from Matthew 13. Jesus said, the

(56:18):
fire comes at the end of the world. And we
see Revelation or 2 Peter, he says that the day
of the Lord will come and the heavens and the
earth will burn up on that day. I think that's
pretty clear. And then we look at Revelation 20 and
we see there's a judgment. There's a great white throne.
There's a resurrection of all these people. And then they're

(56:40):
judged according to their works, which would imply that they're
going to be punished fairly according to what their works are.
And then they go into the lake of fire, which
is the second death. And then there's a new heaven
and a new earth. And there's no more pain, no
more suffering, no more sorrow, no more death. And God says,
I'm going to make all things new. To me, that
makes a lot of sense. And it appeals to my heart.

(57:04):
And if you think about it, you know, if people
burn forever, then that would mean that somewhere in God's universe,
there will always be sorrow. There will always be pain.
There will always be crying because they're going to be somewhere.
And if you think about it, you know, is that

(57:25):
something that God is going to enjoy? Is he going
to enjoy that? knowing in his heart that somewhere in
his universe, whether it's down there or over there or
up there or wherever it is, that there's going to
be people that he created, that he loved, that he
sent his son to die for and rise from the dead, who,
because they rejected Jesus during a short period of life

(57:48):
that they have in this world, that they're never going
to stop suffering. I mean, how is God going to
enjoy eternity knowing that. And what about us? If I
know that my mom is burning somewhere through all eternity,
how much pleasure am I going to have knowing that
she's suffering somewhere? And some people say, well, the Lord's
going to kind of erase that from your mind, so

(58:10):
you don't know she's suffering somewhere. But I don't believe
God works that way. I think he'd rather satisfy our
our minds and our thoughts and our thinkings with his
justice and his goodness and his fairness, so that when
it's all over, we say, just and true are your ways,
King of saints. So let me build my case with

(58:31):
a few more verses.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Certainly, I just want to say that's why I'm so
willing to sit back and listen is because if reading
the Bible taught me anything is to stay malleable and
to always be able to listen to someone's point of view.
I'm just talking about burden of knowledge here for the
folks that are listening out there, maybe you're viewing, and

(58:54):
this is the first time that you're even hearing about
this topic. You just clicked on it because you saw
the title of the interview, and that's fantastic to have
you here, but I just I just want you to
know that, um, if you're reading the Bible, you know,
this is a tough topic to, to, to dive into.
First of all, if you're just, if you're starting off
with the topic of the Bible, if you're starting off
with the Bible and you're starting off with this topic,

(59:15):
I'm just going to tell you, you're, you're starting off
with a tough topic right out of the gate. So,
you know, school of hard knocks, that's your choice. Um,
but remember to stay malleable and to, um, always be
able to sit and listen to someone's point of view,
you may learn something. Or you'll learn something more about

(59:37):
what you already believed.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Right? I appreciate that. I appreciate that, Joshua. And as
Paul said in 1 Thessalonians, I believe it's chapter 5,
verse 23, he said, test all things and hold fast
to what is good. So I encourage people, I give
seminars on these topics and I write books on these topics,

(59:59):
many topics, and I tell people, you know, test it,
test it by the word, read the word. And by
the way, here's another point that I think is very important.
Just for those that are, you know, watching this, I
am very aware of the fact that there are verses
in the Bible that seem to say that people that

(01:00:22):
are lost are are going to be tormented and they're
going to suffer forever. There are verses that seem to
teach that when you read them. But I'm also aware
that there are actually many, many, many, many, many more verses,
on the other hand, that are pretty clear that people

(01:00:45):
that die, like for instance, John 3.16, I mean, the
most well-known verse in the Bible says, God so loved
the world, Jesus said, And these are the words of Jesus.
God so loved the world, he loved the whole world,
that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So
if you take John 3.16 at face value, it seems

(01:01:09):
to say that those who don't have everlasting life will perish.
So the question is, you know, if you do have
some verses on the one side and you have other
verses on the other side, what we have to do
is we have to weigh them out. And I think
a legitimate question is, are there more verses on this
side or on this side? I think that's a significant,

(01:01:32):
you know, let's say we have 10 verses over here,
but we have 50 verses over here. Then what we
need to do is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
You can also ask the question of what does it
mean when all those verses are together?

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yes, that's right. And we need to harmonize them. So
I don't believe the Bible contradicts itself, but I do
believe that we need to compare Scripture with Scripture and
put the pieces together. So here's another one of the verses,
Malachi chapter 4, that I think is pretty clear on
the side if we could call it annihilation. So to
make it simple, we have the one side, annihilation, and

(01:02:05):
we have on the other side, eternal suffering. So which
one of these is right? So Malachi chapter 4, if
you look at verse 1, Malachi wrote, So here's a
whole day. It's not under the ground. It's the entire day,

(01:02:28):
which would fit Jesus' parable that the fire comes at
the end. It fits 2 Peter where he says the
day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.
The heavens vanish with a great noise. The elements melt
with fervent heat. This sounds like that day. Which Revelation
says is the day where there's the lake of fire.

(01:02:49):
So they're all the same day. So Malachi 4 verse 1. Behold,
the day is coming that shall burn as an oven.
And all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly
shall be stubble. And that day that comes shall burn
them up, not says Steve Wahlberg, but says the Lord

(01:03:10):
of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
So this verse compares the wicked and the proud to
like a plant. And the day that's going to come
is going to burn them up so there's no root
left and there's no branch left. Now, I like planting
fruit trees. I've got some fruit trees in my backyard.

(01:03:31):
Since I moved to Tennessee recently, I planted a fig tree.
I love that fig tree, a little fig tree. It's
already got about 20 figs on it. And I know
that if I were to burn up that fig tree
so that there's no root left and there's no branches
left and there's no figs left, there's nothing left. So
the language here is complete. There's just nothing left. It

(01:03:55):
should leave them neither root nor branch.

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
Sounds like ceasing to exist.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Yeah, that's right. Ceasing to exist. And then verse two
describes the righteous. But to you who fear my name
shall the son of righteousness rise with healing in his
wings and you shall go forth and grow up as
calves of the stall and you shall tread down the
wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of
your feet in the day that I shall do this

(01:04:22):
says the Lord of hosts. So God says they'll burn up.
There's no root left. There's no branch left. And all
that's left of them is ashes. And I would put
this verse on the side of annihilation. Like I said,
I know there's other verses. You know, we'd have to
look at those verses carefully, not avoid them, not wiggle
around them, but look at them. But we also need

(01:04:44):
to look at these verses. And then we need to
see which one is in the majority. Where is the
weight of evidence? Is the weight of evidence on the
side of eternal torment? Or is the weight of evidence
on the side of annihilation? And we need to just
keep looking at the verses. Now, here's a very interesting
verse about annihilation in Ezekiel chapter 28. And this verse

(01:05:07):
shocks a lot of people. But it's right there in
the Bible. And it is talking about the devil himself.
And what is going to happen to the devil? Ezekiel
28 says, Verse 14 is clearly talking about Lucifer. You

(01:05:28):
got it? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Verse 14. God said, you are the anointed cherub that covers.
He was a very high exalted angel, a cherubim. I
have set you so you were upon the holy mountain
of God. You walked up and down in the midst
of the stones of fire. You were perfect in your
ways from the day that you were created. So this
has got to apply to Lucifer. because no one in

(01:05:53):
this world was perfect from the day that he was created. Now,
except Adam and Eve, you know, Adam and Eve were
perfect on the day they were created, but then they
fell into sin. And so all humanity from that point
is in sin. But here, God is going back to
the cherub who was perfect in his ways from the

(01:06:15):
day was created until iniquity was found in, in you.
That was where sin was found in Satan. And then
he says, by the multitude of your merchandise, you have
filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore,
I will cast you as profane out of the mountain
of God, which is what he did in Revelation. Lucifer
and his angels got kicked out in Revelation 12. I

(01:06:36):
will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God,
and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the
midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted
up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your... Your
wisdom by reason of your brightness, I will cast you
to the ground. I will lay you before kings that

(01:06:57):
they may behold you. Verse 18 says, you have defiled
your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the
iniquity of your traffic. Therefore, now here's the key part. Therefore,
I will bring forth a fire. So there's a fire.
I will bring it forth from the midst of you.
It shall devour you. And I will bring you to
ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them

(01:07:19):
that behold you. All they that know you among the
people shall be astonished at you. You shall be a
terror and never shall you be any more. So these
verses are talking about the anointed cherub, Lucifer, who was perfect,
who became proud. And then God said, I kicked you

(01:07:40):
out of heaven. And eventually he, God says, I'm going
to destroy you and I'm going to bring you into ashes.
I'm going to make you into ashes. So there's nothing
left of you. And then he said, you will never
be any more. You'll be gone. And I mean, doesn't
that sound good? I remember, Joshua, I was actually having

(01:08:03):
a friendly debate with a Christian pastor about this whole topic.
We did four programs. They're now on our White Horse
Media YouTube channel with me and Pastor Jason. He's a
Christian pastor from Los Angeles. And he believed in eternal torment.
I believe in annihilation. So we had quite a Bible

(01:08:23):
study together. And we recorded these programs. They're on our
YouTube channel. And he told me at one point, He said,
you know, what you're saying, I want to believe it.
He said, it sounds really good.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
You know, the.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
Idea that the devil is going to be gone and
that sin is going to be gone and evil is
going to be gone and wickedness is going to be gone.
And then God's going to have a brand new, you know,
or at least a clean universe. Once again, that appeals
to my conscience. And like I said, we can't create
our own Bible teachings just because they feel good to us. us.

(01:09:00):
But truth also does make sense. It makes sense. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
And that makes perfect sense to me. It's just like, well,
if we may touch back on the flood, right? The
intentions of the flood was to wipe it, all out
to make it cease to exist.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Yep. Um, get rid of evil.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
Yeah. No, unfortunately, uh, man still being man, Noah, uh,
no matter how righteous he was, he wasn't, um, 100%
pure and good like, uh, Jesus Christ. So, Um, it
was still, it would still eventually come back, but not

(01:09:49):
as prevalent as it was in those, in those days. And, uh,
I know that we, we keep talking about, uh, even
nowadays where they say, well, you know, the days of Noah,
it would be as the day as Noah, uh, again.
And I think, I think we may be on the
precipice of that, but, uh, that's a topic for, I
think for a whole other day, but it just, um,

(01:10:10):
I just think of the, the cleansing that it, that
was needed then.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
And the flood didn't get rid of everything, so it
has to be fire.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
That's right. And God got rid of, or at least
he brought judgment on the old world by sending water.
And Peter brings this out in 2 Peter 3, but
he's going to finally get rid of sin completely by
bringing fire. So Noah's day was water. 2 Peter 3,

(01:10:39):
it's fire. And then second Peter three says there'll be
a new heaven and a new earth. And the question is,
you know, are, are those who are not saved going
to continue to suffer somewhere forever or are they going
to be gone? And is God going to have a
new heaven and a new earth? Now let me, I know,
I mean, we could, you and I could go on
for hours, but I don't want, I'm sure you probably,

(01:11:00):
I don't know if you may want to do that
or not, but I, I would like to, you know,
not go on all night, but let me share another
couple texts with you to show people that I do
believe in what the Bible says about eternal fire. And
let me just, we'll just explore a couple of these verses.
So look at Jude, which is in the book right

(01:11:22):
before Revelation. Jude verse seven. And notice this verse. This
is one of the verses on the other side where
the Bible seems to say, you know, that people are
going to suffer forever. But let's take a look at

(01:11:45):
this text. And I know the other verses too. I
know there's verses in Revelation. There's verses in Luke 16.
You know, I know the verses that people use on
the other side. I'm very familiar with these verses as well.
And I don't ignore them, but we just want to
understand them. So Jude 7 says, even as Sodom and

(01:12:08):
Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, they
are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance or
the punishment of eternal fire. Does your translation pretty much
say that?

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
Yeah, punishment of eternal fire.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Yeah, punishment of eternal fire. So let's just look at
the context here. We're talking about Sodom and Gomorrah. And
you remember what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis
chapter 19? It says, fire came down from the Lord
out of heaven and it burned up those cities. So
this is talking about cities that were at one point

(01:12:52):
on the earth, somewhere around the Dead Sea. Archaeologists have
uncovered what they believe to be the ruins of those
ancient cities. So they were there, Sodom and Gomorrah. And
the reason why they were, what was that?

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
As a matter of fact, those areas that they believed
that Sodom and Gomorrah were in still have an amount
of radioactiveness to them.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
And sulfur balls, they found sulfur balls over there. In fact,
a friend of mine was there and he brought back
these sulfur balls. And I saw them and I smelled
them and they were strong, strong smell. And so these
are cities that used to be there upon the earth.
And it says that they are set forth for an example.

(01:13:35):
So what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is an example
of what's going to happen to the lost at the end.
And it says they are an example suffering the vengeance
of eternal fire. So it's eternal fire, yes, but it's
an example. And the example, we see it in Sodom
and Gomorrah. Now, okay, so let's look at another verse

(01:13:57):
right along with this. 2 Peter, just go back a
couple of books. Same chapter that talks about the fire
on the day of the Lord. 2 Peter 2, verse 6,

(01:14:19):
says that God turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah,
there they are, into ashes. and he condemned them with
an overthrow, making them an example to those that afterwards
should live ungodly. So same thing in Jude, same thing
in second Peter, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire.

(01:14:41):
This is an example of what's going to happen to
the lost on the day of judgment. But this verse
adds another little detail in verse six. It says that he,
he turned them into ashes. So again, In Jude, it
says it was eternal fire. But in Peter, it says

(01:15:01):
the eternal fire turned those cities into ashes. So eternal
fire doesn't mean that the cities burn forever or that
the people in those cities burn forever. It means that
eternal fire is God's fire. And you can't put it

(01:15:22):
out until it does its job. It's from an eternal God,
an eternal fire. But it turns the cities of Sodom
and Gomorrah and the people into ashes. And that's an
example of what's going to happen at the end. And
to me, that's very significant. Now, here's one more text
about the same thing, which gives another little piece of information.

(01:15:45):
That's in Lamentations, right after Jeremiah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
Yeah, it even does that to Lot's wife as well
because she looks back and she is, it says as
a pillar of salt, but if we know anything about
radioactive blasts and heat of that magnitude, if you stay
close enough, you will too be ash. So you would
appear as a pillar of salt to anybody from the
outside looking in, right?

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
Yeah, and she's not alive right now burning somewhere. I mean,
whatever's left of her is still over there somewhere near
the Dead Sea. And if she's a lost woman, which
we would assume she is, then what's going to happen
at the end of Revelation 20, which really describes the
millennium and the end of the millennium when the final

(01:16:32):
judgment takes place, then Lot's wife is going to come
back together. Death and hell, you know, will deliver up
the dead and she'll be judged for her works. And
if she's lost, which we would assume she is, then
she's going to end up in the lake of fire.
And then, you know, that'll be it. She'll be judged

(01:16:54):
and punished fairly. And then there'll be a new heaven
and a new earth.

Speaker 3 (01:16:58):
So that fits an imagery that's in my head too.
When I'm thinking about this, like this immediate turn to
ash look like, like in the movie terminator too. I
don't know if you're familiar with that or not, but the,
There's a scene where a nuclear warhead goes off because
this computers have, have gone crazy and they call it Stein. Anyway,
a nuclear warhead hits and this lady's holding onto a

(01:17:19):
fence and her, and her body turns to ash immediately.
And then there's another, there's a movie called it's, it's Avengers.
It's a Marvel. And there's a guy named Thanos. He
snaps his fingers and all these his intentions are to,
to get rid of 50% of everybody. And when he
does that, These people start turning to ash. So if

(01:17:39):
you're familiar with that movie out there, then you know
what I'm talking about. It's just like everything just starts
to kind of turn to ash and go away. I
imagine that it was very similar to this when this
magnitude of heat is hitting Sodom and Gomorrah, that this
is kind of an immediate like finger snap turn to ash.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
That's right. And when you say finger snap, if you
look at Lamentations 4, verse 6, I think there's the
finger snap right here. So verse 6, 4-6 says, for
the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people,
which was Israel, is greater than the punishment of the

(01:18:18):
sin of Sodom, which was overthrown as in a moment,
and no hand stayed on her or were able to
help her. So in Jude, it says Sodom and Gomorrah
were destroyed with eternal fire. In Peter, it says that
eternal fire turned them into ashes. And this verse says

(01:18:43):
that they were overthrown in a moment. So, put the
verses together, you've got eternal fire. results in turning cities
into ashes and it happens in a moment and that's
what all three of those verses when you put them
together say so i do believe in eternal fire everlasting
fire and i believe that if that eternal fire will

(01:19:06):
burn people to ashes in a moment And so we
put these verses together. And there's a lot of other
verses that we could look at. There's just a whole bunch.
And so bottom line is, I do believe in the Bible.
I do believe in hell. I believe in the fire.
I believe it comes at the end. I believe that

(01:19:26):
people will be resurrected and judged fairly. And then those
who are lost will go into that fire, that everlasting fire,
that lake of fire, and it will turn them into ashes.
And then they will experience what's called the second death.
And then Lucifer will be included in that. He'll become ashes,

(01:19:46):
root and branch. And then there'll be a new heaven
and a new earth. And all the saved forever and
ever will know that God is just and he's true.
And they will be so grateful forever that Jesus paid
the price for them on the cross. And if you
think about it, here's another thought. If the wages of sin,

(01:20:07):
which Paul says is death, If the wages of sin
is really eternal torment, and if Jesus paid that price,
if he legitimately took our place and experienced our punishment
and our justice in order for him to justly, you know,

(01:20:28):
experience the full consequences of sin, he would have to
burn forever. But that's not what happened. It's not what happened.
He experienced the wages of sin, which is death. And
the heart of the gospel is that he died. Paul said,
Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures. And

(01:20:52):
he was buried. And then he rose from the dead
the third day, according to the scriptures. So bottom line
for me is I believe in death, burial, and resurrection.
I believe that Jesus paid the full price. And that
those who reject his salvation, they will reap the consequence
of their own sin. And they will die the second

(01:21:13):
death after they're judged at the end of the thousand years.
And then they'll be gone. They'll be ashes. They'll be
burned up. No root, no branch. And there won't be
anything left of sin at all. And God's going to
have a new heaven and a new earth where there's
no more pain, suffering, sorrow, or death. For all that's gone.

(01:21:34):
And we and the redeemed are going to go into
eternity in the kingdom of God, knowing that Jesus suffered
for us and paid the price and that the justice
that fell on Christ is going to fall on the
lost justly and fairly because of their sin. And then
they'll be gone. And that the God that we serve,

(01:21:54):
the God that we will live with for all eternity
is a God of mercy and of justice rooted in love.
And we're going to say, just and true are your ways,
king of saints, and worthy is the lamb that was slain.
And there will be no more doubts about the justice
of God. We'll be very clear on that for all eternity.

(01:22:16):
And I believe that is a beautiful and it is
a biblical picture of the character of God. And it
makes sense. And the books that I've written, The Hot
Topic of Hell, I have another book called Satan's First Lie.
which really goes all the way back to the garden
where the first lie that Satan never told, uh, was,
was what he told to Eve when he said, if

(01:22:37):
you eat the fruit, you will not die, but you
will be like God knowing good and evil. And the
idea that people don't die, uh, in other words, that
they go on and on and on and on and
on forever and ever and ever. That idea really came from, uh,
the tree, from the tree of knowledge of good and evil,

(01:22:58):
from the very first lie Satan ever told when he said,
you won't die. And I believe that people do die.
And then there's a resurrection, and then there's the second death,
and then sin is gone. And my books deal with
the other verses. They look at all the verses. They
look at them, look at the context like we did
with Jude and everlasting fire that fell upon Sodom and Gomorrah.

(01:23:19):
And I think that there are There's some verses on
the one side. There's a whole lot more verses on
the other side. And when we look at the whole
picture and look at the verses that seem to suggest
eternal torment, and we look at them carefully, that they
don't contradict the rest.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
Of the Bible. Yeah, because it does not contradict itself.
That's for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:23:46):
And bringing up Jesus Christ now, that's why that gate
is narrow. Because... Because we have to have him in
order to be considered in the book of life, as
you said. So when we don't, then there are consequences. Consequences,
just like in life, you do something wrong, there are consequences.

(01:24:09):
But God gave us grace enough that we should be
without excuse, honestly, that he sent his son.

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (01:24:19):
And that's the important part here. Regardless of where someone
may land on their theological understanding, and I'm certainly going
to have to take more of a look at this,
but I think that as neat of a topic as
this is, I don't believe that it's something for me

(01:24:43):
to press so hard that I'm going to try to
say one way or the other until I've read it, one.
and have a better understanding, but, uh, two, it's, it ultimately,
my goal is to, to point people towards Jesus Christ.
That the, the other thing is, um, taking a look

(01:25:03):
at this from, from the perspective that you've, that you've
laid out the case that you've laid out. Um, one
might argue that what, what is, what seems like a
worse outcome to continue to exist in a fire burning
forever and ever and ever. or to have never existed
at all. To just be completely erased from existence. To

(01:25:32):
go into nothing. Now the atheists, they'll be like, oh,
this is what we thought was going to happen the
whole time, of course. But to go into nothing, to
never have existed, just a separation from God alone, that
should be horrifying enough for most believers, but if that's

(01:25:53):
not far enough, the idea of hell, even if for
thousands of years or whatever, a thousand years or however
long that that fire lasts, and then into nothing, if
that doesn't change your heart and your mind, if that
doesn't stir your soul to go through the narrow gate today,

(01:26:18):
To believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior,
to repent of the sins that you've committed, I don't
honestly know what will compel you. So I honestly, I'd
have to say, I love your presentation, Steve. It's given
me a lot to think about. I don't think that

(01:26:44):
I can refute what you've given me here thus far.
And I don't intend to.

Speaker 2 (01:26:49):
Well, good for you, Joshua. You have an open mind. And,
you know, I think about the book of Acts, chapter 17,
where Paul went to the little town of Berea. And
it says that those in Berea, they were noble-minded. And
they searched the scriptures to see whether what Paul said

(01:27:13):
was right. And so, searching the scriptures... is the sign
of a noble mind. And we all need to have
noble minds. We all need to be willing to, to
look at the Bible and test the scriptures. And I've
heard some people say, Josh, that, that if hell doesn't
burn forever, then, you know, why serve the Lord? You know,
it's the, they say that, you know, you got to

(01:27:35):
hold that before sinners in order to motivate them to
give their lives to Christ. And if you take that away,
you know, and just, show them annihilation, that's not enough
for their hearts to be motivated to serve God. But
I think to myself, isn't the cross enough? Isn't Jesus

(01:27:56):
suffering for you and for me enough? Do we have
to be motivated entirely by fear of eternal torment to
give our hearts to God? Jesus said, if I am
lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men
to me. And to me, you know, Ceasing to exist,
especially after standing before God and being judged and realizing

(01:28:20):
what I've lost, that I've lost eternity, and then to
suffer punishment for my sins in the lake of fire.
You know, to me, that's scary enough. You know, I
don't want to do that. But above all, I want
to be with Jesus. You know, I want to be
with the Lord that died for me. So that's the

(01:28:42):
bottom line. And so I encourage people to, you know,
check out these books like you'd like to do. The
Hot Topic of Hell is a little book. It's about
a dollar. And then we have Satan's First Lie. It's
a couple bucks. And these go into all the verses
or most of the verses on this side, on this side.
And people can decide where they want to land. Give

(01:29:03):
it a fair hearing. Check it out from the Bible.
These are available from White Horse Media. That's the name
of our ministry. Whitehorsemedia.com is our website. People can go online.
They can order it there or they can call the office.
And for a couple bucks, they can get these books
and they can check them out and then make their
own decisions.

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
I believe Curtis also put your links into the description.
take care of that for us. But ultimately, I kind
of want to discuss this just before we, and it
seems like we're kind of wrapping things up, but now
that we're talking about the topic of Jesus specifically, we
know that some people just won't hear. This is what

(01:29:42):
will lead them to that, the topic that we've been discussing, right?
Is if they don't hear. Paul, you know, I was
reading it today, Acts chapter 28, as I told you pre-show,
I finished up the book of Acts today. And these
are things that he pulls up. He says in Acts

(01:30:06):
chapter 28, we're going to go start at verse 25 here.
They were disagreeing among themselves whether what Paul was saying
was true or not, right? because he was telling them
over several days about Jesus and where he was coming

(01:30:32):
from and inciting their very own belief system. But in
verse 25 of Acts chapter 28, it says, in disagreeing
among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement.
He says, the Holy Spirit was right in saying to

(01:30:52):
your fathers through Isaiah the prophet. So he's pointing out
to their own prophet. Go to this people and say,
you will indeed hear but never understand, and you will
indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has
grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear,

(01:31:13):
and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see
with their eyes. and hear with their ears and understand
with their heart and turn and I would heal them.

(01:31:34):
Now we see those two types of people today still.
And of course he goes on to talk about the
Gentiles being brought into the fold and things of that sort. But,
if we just take a look at that and put
it into modern context, right? If we just, if we
just read that and put it in a modern context,
who's listening, he's called us all near, right? He's drew

(01:32:01):
us all. He draws us all near. That's why people
have the God shaped hole. That's why they, uh, they
try to fill it with everything, but right. They, they,
the riches, the, um, uh, the television programs, they're, uh,
the things, you know, they, they have collectibles, uh, I
used to be, I used to be a very big
collectible guy, had all those different, you know, superhero things

(01:32:22):
and stuff, you know, but people try to fill it
with stuff or, or, or, or sexual desires or whatever.
Insert this thing here. Cause that there's a hole in them.
And once they, if they just realize if those of
you listening and viewing right now, just realize that that
God shaped hole has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ and

(01:32:48):
Repent of your sins today. And I don't mean, Oh Lord,
take this away from me and hold out a closed hand.
I mean, God, I did this. Start listing off the
things that you've done. Be honest with him about what
you have done. Don't do the God I have sinned
and Jesus, I accept you now and not mean it

(01:33:08):
because that's, guess what that leads to?

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
Nowhere.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
Right? Absolutely nowhere. In order to go through that narrow gate,
You have to tell him what you've done. Now, maybe
you say, okay, Lord, I've exhausted all the things that
I know about, but for the things that I don't remember,
I would ask that you forgive me for those as well.
Be honest with him. Really break it down. Give it
to him open-handed and then say, God, will you forgive me?

(01:33:39):
I call upon your son, Jesus Christ, as my Lord
and Savior. Truly mean it. That's where you'll not only
find salvation, but you'll begin to hear You'll see things
that you didn't see before. I noticed that for folks
that go through and they read their Bible right now,
if they don't believe, they don't understand, it's going to

(01:34:04):
be very difficult for them. Right? It's just like you
talked about, Steve, where you had that pastor that told
you about hell right off the bat, and you're like, oof,
that's a bit much, right? I don't have any understanding
of that. Well, of course you wouldn't. Of course you wouldn't.

(01:34:25):
And it's going to be hard for you to hear
anything of that sort because we haven't had our eyes
opened yet. Pre-belief. So I think people need to understand
that once you believe, and then you go back and
read his word, that's the turn. that's being discussed here,

(01:34:49):
giving yourself to God, I would heal them. And I
don't mean heal as like, oh, well, you know, all
of a sudden that leg that's been, you know, severed
is going to all of a sudden grow a new
one and you're going to walk again. That may or
may not happen. I don't know. Miracles do happen all
the time. But what I will tell you is that

(01:35:11):
that healing will be salvation and you'll be baptized by
the Holy Spirit and you'll be moved by it. And
you may end up creating an entire media company like
the gentleman next to me. You may end up creating
a podcast company and working for another one because you
just want to tell people about Jesus. You may just

(01:35:38):
want to be an usher on a Sunday morning and
lead people to their seats in church. The body of
Christ is you're the, you're the hands and feet folks.
You're the hands and feet. So once you've, once you've
repented and you've, and you've believed in Jesus Christ as
your Lord and savior, you'll see, he'll give you purpose.

(01:35:59):
He'll move you forward in it. I felt compelled. I
know that it wasn't necessarily, this was more of a,
it was supposed to be more of an interview, but
it just, you know, when the spirit moves, it moves,
doesn't it, Steve?

Speaker 2 (01:36:12):
Yeah. Hey, I don't have a problem at all with,
appealing to people to give their lives to Jesus. You know,
now is the day of, today's the day of salvation,
Paul said. And that's where my heart is too. You know,
I want people to believe in Christ. I want people
to be drawn to him. And I believe that when
we understand the topic of hell and God's justice and
the lake of fire and the lost becoming ashes, and

(01:36:36):
then there being a new heaven and a new earth,
that it makes Jesus look good. that he's good, he's just,
he's fair, and those who don't want him ultimately will
be gone. And I want him. This is enough for me.
I don't need, you know, the threat of eternal torment

(01:36:59):
over me in order to believe in Christ. Now, I understand,
you know, that people have been taught this and they
believe this and I'm not condemning them for that, but
I'm just saying, have an open mind and listen. And
like you read that verse in Acts chapter 28, there
are some people that just don't want to hear like
the people did. And may God, you know, Jesus often said,

(01:37:23):
he that has an ear, let him hear. So I
appreciate this opportunity, Joshua, very much.

Speaker 3 (01:37:31):
I appreciate you being here. And just like Paul, we
have to take that final step. If you remember, you know, Paul,
he was made blind because he was a murderer. He was.
As Saul, he was a murderer. He was made blind
and led to Damascus. Once he gets to Ananias, they're
in Damascus. He's given his sight back, but Ananias tells him,

(01:37:55):
he's like, you have to make the final steps. He's
led you here. You have to make the final steps, right?
That's right. That's all of us out here today. He's
drawn us near. Stop trying to fill it with all
the world. It's never going to fulfill you. He's all

(01:38:16):
you need. And when you do, when you take those steps,
it's all you're going to need. I'm telling you. And
they say, well, what do I do once I've called
on Christ? Stay in your word. Stay prayed up. If

(01:38:36):
you're going to view things, view things that you know
that brings him glory. If you're going to listen to things,
listen to things that you know is going to bring
him glory. If you're going to engage in things, engage
in things that you know is going to bring him glory.
Allow him to truly change you from the inside out.
Remove that ego. Call it edging God out, as my

(01:38:58):
good friend AC over there on Rumble says. And I
hope that's true for all of you. Steve, if you
don't mind, I guess we'll call this closing words here,
but are there any final words that you'd like to
give to the folks out there before we leave here?

Speaker 2 (01:39:21):
I guess my final word would be to study the Bible,
you know, study the word of God, look at the
whole picture, not just one verse or two verses, but
look at the weight of evidence, compare scripture with scripture
and let the Holy spirit lead your mind. And, um,
you know, if you, if you learn something in the

(01:39:42):
word of God, that might be different from what you've
always been taught, you know, consider yourself, uh, blessed that
you're learning new things. And we all need to learn
new things, me included. You know, none of us have arrived.
We don't know everything. We need to have a humble
spirit that we're willing to be taught new things from

(01:40:05):
the Bible by the Lord. And so let's just stay
on the path and keep looking to Jesus. And man
shall not live by bread alone, but by every word
that comes from the mouth of God.

Speaker 3 (01:40:17):
Amen to that. Well, I want to tell folks as
I normally do, but just before I do, I want
to remind folks that if you are to check out
Revolver Broadcasting on Rumble, Facebook, YouTube, you'll see a program
called Morning Word. And that's where my friend Sterling and I,

(01:40:39):
we do a Bible study, 9 a.m. Eastern, Monday through Saturday.
So if you're wondering where to go next, maybe you
can join us. You know, if you're looking for a
Bible study to get into and just kind of you know,
we're just two dudes doing Bible study. We're not here
to tell you how to do it. We're just two
dudes doing Bible study. We're going through verse by verse,
chapter by chapter, and we have a lot of fun

(01:41:01):
doing it. We bring a lot of humor as well,
and it's because it's a Bible study at the end
of the day, and we know that we're human. And
so we're very aware of ourselves and sensibilities out there.
So if you would, I would love, love, love to
have each and every one of you 9 a.m. Eastern
Monday through Saturday, any one of those days you pick, Um,

(01:41:21):
and we have, we have a lot of fun and
we do Bible study. That being said, I want to
tell everybody to stay in trouble. That sounds like strange
advice coming from somebody who's just told you to follow
Jesus Christ. Right. But I want to tell you this.
The reason I say that is because if you have
Christ in your hearts, you will in fact be in

(01:41:44):
trouble with the world.

Speaker 2 (01:41:45):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:41:48):
Amen. The world doesn't want you living under his grace.
That's your salvation first and foremost, and I pray that
each and every one of you has that. The world
doesn't want you reading his word, praying to him, having
a relationship with him, and it definitely doesn't want you
going out and doing something so dangerous as telling others
about him. But I want to encourage you all to

(01:42:11):
do all that anyway. Be modern-day Paul. Get out there boldly.
Stay in trouble. Follow Jesus. Remember to go to eternalaffairsmedia.com,
to revolverbroadcasting.com. And thank you so much, Steve, once again
for joining me.

Speaker 2 (01:42:30):
You're welcome.

Speaker 3 (01:42:31):
If you would give us a closing prayer and we'll
close this thing down.

Speaker 2 (01:42:35):
Okay, sure. Heavenly Father, thank you for being a wonderful, glorious,
good God who is just and merciful. And your heart
is full of love for all the beings that you
have made. And we just pray that everybody that has

(01:42:55):
watched this will be motivated to go deeper into the scriptures,
to learn more about your character and your plan to
save those who believe in Jesus and follow you, and
also to punish fairly those who reject you. because you

(01:43:20):
are fair and a just and a good God. Bless
us all, we pray, and may we all be in
the kingdom together. In Jesus' name, amen.

Speaker 3 (01:43:28):
Amen. Thank you once again, you all, for joining us.
We'll see you next time. Thank you, Josh. Thank you.
All right, the stream has.

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