Debra Cartwright: The Shaman/Astronomers of Gobekli Tepe

Deborah Cartwright obtained a BA Honours degree in Modern Continental Philosophy and
Phenomenology and studied esoteric psychology through the Theosophical Society. Becoming a
published author on self-development and esoteric psychology in 1999, with her non-fiction book
The Inward Revolution, published by Warner, Little Brown and co-authored with popular novelist
Storm Constantine. The book stands as a unique perspective of alternative psychology, self-help and modern existentialism.

She is best known in the UK for her research with authors Andrew Collins, Graham Phillips and Paul Weston, and her work has directly contributed to many of their books on the genre of earth
mysteries, forbidden archaeology and historical investigation. A key figure in the alternative
archaeology community since the 1990’s, Debbie provided inspiration and foundational ideas for
Andrew’s books The Circlemakers, The Second Coming and From the Ashes of Angels. This
collaborative research into the prehistoric origins of civilisation continued with her involvement in
his books, Denisovan Origins in 2019, and Origins of the Gods in 2022, co-authored with Dr Greg
Little.

Debbie is also known for her extensive work on the Rosslyn Chapel Project between 1992 to 2003 on the subject of the mystical beliefs and practices of the Knights Templar and the Sinclair family for key figures of the project. They included Niven Sinclair, author Stephen Prior, historian Robert Brydon and the then curator of the chapel, Judith Fiskin.

As an exponent of the ‘Questing’ movement since 1990, Debbie defines it as the unique practice of
interacting with ancient sites and the natural landscape to retrieve lost historical knowledge, solve
mysteries, or effect change in the landscape and within the self. Using esoteric techniques such as
meditation and mental visualisation, ‘questing’ is a physical pursuit encompassing many different
spiritual, esoteric and occult disciplines to obtain knowledge of the past.
Debbie’s current work focuses on research into animism and the philosophy behind prehistoric
shamanism, offering a unique perspective on the question of ‘what the ancients were up to’.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/earth-ancients--2790919/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:19):
We're right at the end of the month here in October,
and that means that we're just about ready to start
with the megal Lithomania Origins Conference, which is November one,
and we have one of their guest speakers today. It
is DeBras or Deborah Cartwright, who is a very well
known research investigator who has co written books with Andrew Collins,

(00:44):
Hugh Newman, and some others. And she's quite good at
what she presents, and she is an expert on this
whole Quebec, the Teppe Carahan Teppee culture. And this is
what we're going to focus on today is the people.
We don't really know anything about the people because we
don't have any skeleton remains, we have few, if any

(01:08):
burial goods. I don't think we have any burial goods.
And the name that's been given by the academics to
the people are the test Teblar culture. These are the
people that occupied Qebecley Teppee, Krahan Teppee and these other

(01:28):
hill temples. Now, remember when we had Hugh on a
few weeks ago, he reminded us that there's over forty
of these locations in this region of Turkey, and it's
taking them a long time because it takes time to
slowly excavate and clear away the debris to reveal the

(01:52):
actual temple itself. But what we're gonna hear about today
is the latest information on who they believe were the
people who occupied these parts of Turkey over twelve thousand,
five hundred years ago nine thousand, five hundred BC. And

(02:13):
these are post catastrophe people into the Last I Sation
or as a plasticcene. And you know, it's funny because
what Andrew presents are the bits and pieces that we
know about in forms of sculptural release and sculptures that
are standing. But we're going to hear today from Debra

(02:34):
and this is all interesting to focus on, but we
don't get enough about the actual people. Hey, this is
clip your host of Earth Ancients. And today my guess
is Deborah Cartwright, who is really really drilling into what
we can expect to find when the time comes based
on what we know of the archaeological remains of Quebec,

(02:58):
the Teppe, Karahan Teppe and the other tepees that are
slowly being excavated. And what she's going to present today
is her interpretation of these people as shaman cosmology or
shaman astronomers. And why do we say that. First of all,

(03:22):
the shamanistic aspect of it is what we get from
the sculpture reliefs on these T shaped columns that are
a primary support for these dwellings. They were carved out
of the bedrock that surrounds these temples. And these are
not temples and the regular sense of archways and walls,

(03:49):
seating and a platform to speak on. No, they're much
much different than that. And if you want to go
to Earth Ancients and find the Facebook page, you can
see some photographs of the interior of some of these
strange Go Beckley Teppe and Krahan Teppe temples. They're not

(04:11):
really temples in the same sense that we are used to.
You have to get a sense, and I think the
archaeologists are using temples so more people understand that these
are sacred teaching locations where the T pillars have carvings
of animals, have carvings of what looks like planets. One

(04:32):
interpretation at Go Beckley Teppy and I can't remember what
the T what location of the ta is. I think
it's b or ct temple column there looks to be
an interpretation of a catastrophe of some kind of a
asteroid here, but that's a that's almost a wild interpretation,

(04:54):
and we don't really know for sure because we have
no writing from these people, We have no evidence of
they're able to put pen to paper or carve wordings
or letters or anything. So we have to interpret this,
and this is what we're gonna continue to deal with
as we are uncovering the details of these unusual temples.

(05:19):
So the program today will focus on what the shamanistic
aspect is, but also who these people were. Astronomical and
perhaps are astrological aspects of these people were. Did they
use astrology? Now we know that the Dynastic Egyptians were

(05:40):
very much dialed in to astrology in a way that
we cannot appreciate today because we think it's a joke.
Scientists today do not recognize astrology as anything more than
just game playing. They don't think it's an actual science.
But the Egyptians were very much into it. So we're

(06:02):
the Hindus, so were the Maya and others, but the
Egyptians were so dedicated to it that it's all over
their temples. In fact, there's a whole ceiling that was
removed by one of Napoleon's architects and brought back to France.
You can see that the Louver Museum. It's terrible what

(06:23):
they did, but it's a gorgeous, gorgeous ceiling with the
astrological science. So what we learned today is an up
to date rendition of what the interpretations are for the people. Again,
they are considered very advanced by many standards, and they're

(06:44):
known as the test Taplers, the test Tapler culture of Turkey.
So today's program is the Shaman Astronomers of Goe Beckley
Tepi and my guest is Deborah Cartwright or Dacious is

(07:40):
a sponsor of Origins. This is a conference within the
megal Lithomania program and we had Huge Newman on the
program a few weeks ago. It's going to be held
in England November one from ten am to seven pm
and for more information go to or Origins Conference dot

(08:02):
co dot uk. And as always, you guys that live
in the United States who are not in England can
hear it and see it on a streaming program. I
think Houst only charging fifty dollars for the full day
which is unheard of.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, it's cheap, it's.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Very very reasonable. And I want to mention we have
one of the speakers on the program. Her name is
Debbie Cartwright, and she'll be speaking on a topic known
as it's called cosmology of chaos, life, death and the
creation of tests tepter or a tipping tur which are

(08:43):
the people. And this is why this is a really
great person to have on the program. We've had a
number of people speaking about the Go Beckley tepping site
as well as Carahan Teppee. Hugh spent a great deal
of time on this location in r say, these locations
in Turkey. But Debbie is unique because she has co

(09:05):
written books with Andrew Collins and really has her hand
on the pulse of what these people are all about.
And this is what we're going to be talking about today.
So Debbie, welcome to earth Ansient's great to have you
on the program.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's great to be here. Thanks.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Bringvit niklif talk a little bit about your work with Colin.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah. Well, first, I think I've been working with Andrew
Collins for thirty five years on and off. Wow, I
know long time, so that gives away my age. But
I think when Andrew started working in touch Teplar his
first hash Chaplar book, that was about twenty eleven, and

(09:48):
from that point on he kind of drew me into
that research. And so I guess it's because I'd been
on a philosopher. I studied academic philosophy and pnominology and
they ended up applying that to the kind of mindset
of shamans and ancient shamanism. So that was my area

(10:09):
of research, and I guess Andrew wanted a perspective on
that when he was looking at the Tashteplar sites and
it was all new. I mean, he'd been going over
there since you know, Klaus Schmidt was head of the
archeology there, and I guess, you know, it's great to

(10:31):
have another perspective on shames. So I came into it
about twenty eleven twenty twelve, and since then we've been
Andrew and I have been unraveling the mysteries of what
was going on in around that whole area on all
the tash Teplar sites, Becky, thepy Caahan, Thepi and others,

(10:51):
and Shan Lufa, and also from from my perspective, I
don't know who were these people people except that they
were shame means people except that there was shamanism going
on in Quebec Tepeyat and Karahan Teppee, but not many
people know a lot about it. I have a lot
of preconceived ideas maybe about what shamanism is and what

(11:13):
it's about. So I've been working to try and clear
up those misnomers. And my previous talk origins was about that.
So this one just goes a little bit deeper into
those shamans and what their philosophy of life and death
and creation myths might have been. So that's that's where
we are this year and what I'll be talking about.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
So tell us about the test tabler because I I mean,
I thought that it was still kind of a rough
idea who the people were that built quebeclee Teppy because
it's so unique. We don't really today. I don't think
we have a four skeleton yet. Maybe we do.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
We don't as far as I'm aware. If I'm wrong,
I'm happy to be correct because that would be amazing. Yeah,
if we had a full skeleton, there wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Be we would be very telling. If we had a burial,
say where we had artifacts, Yeah, we had grave goods, yeah,
which seems to be appropriate for the time period of
twelve five hundred years ago, which is just a mind
blowing number.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
That is a mind blowing number. It's pushed the whole
debate about the foundations of settled civilization and the transition
from hunter gathering to settled communities is pushed that debate
back by several millennia. But we know that obviously it's
sort of it's Neolithic like mesolithically Neolithic period, and it

(12:46):
wasn't uncommon that there wasn't burials or grave goods and
all of these things that was a kind of later
early Bronze Age shouldn't chocolatestic practice. And it's possible it's
been proposed that they would have had ex carnation going
on with gebecy Teppe and places like that, where bodies

(13:10):
were left out for carrying and predators to feed upon,
and this was usually done on terms of platforms, and
ex carnation platforms wouldn't platforms that are elevated for things
like vultures or eagles or birds of prey to come
and feed on the on the bones, so those bones
wouldn't have been buried reverently they would have given back

(13:33):
to nature and they're given back to Yeah, so it's
not it's not therefore unusual that there weren't any burials
with grave goods at Quebecy Teppe.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, to talk a minute about test templar who came up?
Was that Schmidt's concept?

Speaker 2 (13:50):
I think it was. I'm going to say I think
it was, and I think it's one that's become more popular. Obviously.
I know that Leslie Carroll and Lee Claire and all
of the other leading the heads of archaeology in Turkeys
certainly refer to that term as it's a term for
the collective term for like what seems to be a

(14:11):
civilization or population that existed around the harm Plane in
southeast Turkey, or what was Anatolia. It's turning out that
this is not just one or two sites, but maybe
a vast civilization of several sites, civil cities. So a
word for the culture itself needed to be, you know,

(14:34):
agreed on. And I think tash Scheppler is is it?
I mean tepla Tepe is the word for hill, so
it just means mound or hill, and the harm plane
is quite really flat. It's it's great agricultural and obviously
it's the cradle of agriculture. But on the horizon you
see all these mounds and these so called tepis, and

(14:56):
that's where these sites have been found within these mounds
or these hills and the tepe is so hence called
touch tepula.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
And can we go back and get a sense of
where these people came from? I mean, Andrew's kind of
on the fence about potential Lantidians or dinner dinner snovens
and you know what we're listenants, Yeah, dignificence excuse me?

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, yes, Well, I think where we are is still
really in a hypothesis stage. It can't be known for
certain because what is known is there's a lot of
cross cultural migration and migration in the at the end
of the Younger Driest period, you know, just before the

(15:42):
sort of late the Early Neolithic period started when things
were a lot warmer and there was a lot of migration.
So you know, there's lots of posals that well, it
would have been indigenous cultures to the Anatolian plane. Maybe
possibly other more advanced cultures would have been involved, like

(16:03):
the Czarzians of in you know, just over the border
in Iran Persia, and then other populations coming in from
the north through migration routes with the down through the
Black Sea and through the Stars of Kazakhs, dan as Bekistan,
from the Eurasian Steps from the region like the all

(16:24):
Thai and regions around Mongolia and China. That whole Eurasian
Steps area. A kind of hunter gatherer known as the
Swaderian population who were quite prevalent in that area, and
migrations with deer herds would have come into the Anatolian

(16:45):
region from there, So there would have been migrations from
the north of how many populations migration from the south.
So it seems that the sort of main popular hypothesis
is that the tashed Teplical too were formed from a
kind of I don't know, multicultural hot potch of ideas

(17:07):
and advanced ideas about stone tool technology and you know,
philosophy and cosmology and chomannic beliefs, and it's this whole
melting pot that may have created this unique culture.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
That it could have been multi racial, yeah, Asia African, really,
it could have been.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
It could have been. It's very possible. We don't know
that we can't know that you.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Found a pillar with some various faces on there that
are reministion.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Would be good, that would be very very good, But
it's it's more likely that the Sabian population. There's been
a lot of speculation about what they would have looked like,
that they could have been, you know, human hybrids Neanderthal
and denicib and human hybrids may have had height from

(18:03):
the progenitor species homohydroprogensis. They might have been seven seven
foot tall, six and a half seven foot tall seven
a half football, which was really tall for prehistoric Homonids and
Neanderthals was shorter up five foot and you know that
there's all kinds of speculations. They would not necessarily have
had Asian features. That might have had features that aren't

(18:25):
really common today. They would have had some evidence of
maybe archaic features, which would have been on an extended brow,
the more prominent cheekbones, the larger nose cavities, in the
larger eye cavities. Perhaps maybe even a Native American kind
of look, because there is evidence that DNA taken from

(18:49):
Native American skulls in certain parts of America as found
to have Siberian DNA, so they know that there was
a big migration out of that Eurasian area Eurasian Northern
Eurasian State as around the Younger Dryest period, both into
the Americas and south into the into the Middle East.
So it's possible that they didn't look like anything that

(19:10):
we can actually pinpoint today. But before we.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Start, I want you to address what we talked about
this before we began, which was the skull that was
found to go Weckley Deby and what what did they discern?
Was there any kind of uh racial type that that
skull belonged to, was it you call it a hybrid? Possible?

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Well, they can't really tell. The skull fragments the skulls
found at Gobec Debi are not whole skulls. They were
just fragments, they know, fragments of bone, quite a lot
of fragments of bone. But in those fragments of bone,
there were only seven cranial or skull fragments found, so

(19:57):
they know that they're cranial bones. They do know that,
and they know there's about seven pieces of cranial bone
and probably from around three individuals. And it was analyzing
these cranial fragments and these very specific and precise incized

(20:18):
groups on these cranial fragments and even drilled holes into
them that when they reconstructed what the skull may have
looked like with a drawing to illustrate these marks and
the whole, it looks like the whole had been for
a cord to go through, and the incised grooves, you know,
carved into the side of the cranium would have been

(20:40):
to stop the cord wrapped around slipping down. And we
can see that practice in modern what in current would
say modern current tribes in Filipino and Borneo, so called
headhunter tribes who do the exact same thing to skulls
with stone tools and they use them to carry this

(21:04):
goals around and they use them in rituals, ancestor rituals,
death rituals, things like that. So it's pretty clear that
the archaeologists, I think who did the work on these
goals and Julia Goreski in twenty seventeen and she proposes

(21:24):
that it is evidence of some kind of death goal
or skull cult at least at Gebechley Tepi for now.
So but you know, current there's more archaology going on
at gobet Cippi. It is going to be happening, so
maybe they will find a whole goal. We can only hope.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah, let's let's go ahead and begin. You you had
a quote from a in the very beginning of your
slight presentation over the archaeologist. I didn't really Oh, yeah,
this is I wanted to see what that's kind of
an opening too.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, it's it's not been to my talk, and it's
from an anthropologist, because as I said, this is an overview.
My talk will be an overview about the people of
Tashtepler from an anthropological point of view. Who are those people?
So in anthropology it's quite a you know, a common
method to look at other cultures and comparative cultures and

(22:23):
make imperative parallels between the way that's one particular society
is and their beliefs and their practices and customs and
traditions and another, so that you that you don't necessarily
have a lot of information about in order to help
understand the other culture better, so you can make these comparatives.
That's a that's a very common method in anthropology. So

(22:45):
I just this is a quote here to buy addopologies.
Water Evan events, and it says to reduce parallels when
studying a religion or mythology is worth doing in order
to show the fundamental bond which unites also systems of
belief in things called spiritual But it is more important
to try and understand why they should these parallels should

(23:07):
exist and why they're a unifying principle behind them. And
that's what my talks about, what's really behind all these comparatives.
Lots of people have compared the culture of kobecy Tepe
with ancient Mesopotamian ideas, ancient Egyptian ideas, and the Collins
is one of them. In his book The Sigma's Key,

(23:29):
he's compared it with the proto ancient Egyptian Hugh Newman and.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
J. J.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
The excellent work of J. J. Ainsworth that they've done
is looking at the Vedict tradition. And I'm more interested
in what the unifying principle is behind all of those,
not just looking at different cultures and saying, well, that's
a bit like that, or quebecy Tepe symbol here looks
a bit like that. What's the unifying principle? So I
think this is why this quote here is important in

(23:59):
one I'm trying to in my hypothesis.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Really, Okay, you brought shaman. What is it about the
these temples Gobecy Teppe and what we know about Karrahan,
Teppee and the other I think it wasn't at forty
that they've discovered, but they haven't necessarily evacuated.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, yeah, excavated, Yeah, evacuated.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah. Shamans are unique people. Shamans are the visionaries. Shamans
are the guiding force behind. But talk about shaman and
if you can define shama shaman in this context of
Quebec Lee Tepee or the Teppees, Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Shamanism is defined by modern anthropologists and even archaeologists as
a kind of form of primitive nature worship existed originated
in prehistoric humankind. It pre exists more systematic religions of

(25:05):
gods and goddesses, and it's more or less described as
a kind of nature worship. It is of course more
complicated than that. That's a guy a simplified term for it.
But a shaman is a human who has access to
nature and the forces of nature, both visible and invisible,

(25:30):
in a way that a normal human or non shamanic
person would not have. So they have a mindset or
a type of consciousness that they believe can connect with
the spirits of animals, can connect with the spirits of plants,
can communicate with plants, animals, even inanimate things.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
Like rocks, things like that.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
They believe. Sharmans believe that they can do this because
everything is connected and because everything has consciousness, everything rocks, trees, plants, water, birds, animals,
So that fundamental belief allows a shaman with his consciousness
to connect to the consciouness of another thing that's external

(26:18):
to him with that's a spirit of water, the spirit
of a tree, spirit of a bird. And they use
this ability, which they claim to have to heal people,
to bring back knowledge for their community, to understand what's
happening in nature, the changing of the seasons, migrational paths,

(26:39):
where to find water. They communicate with animals that will
tell them where water holes are. They will project their
consciousness into that of a bird, so they can trap
migration paths for their tribe or their community to follow.
So it's a very practical set of tools, and it's
a kind of methodology, I suppose, rather than a mythology.

(27:03):
So shamanism is a way for a tribal person. Normally
they're tribal people to basically guide, look after hill and
ensure that their type survives.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
our sponsors to identify themselves, and we'll return shortly with
my guest today, Deborah Cartwright discussing the shaman astronomers of
Gobecley Teppe. Will be right back.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Then it's the space in the campaign. Yeah, I'm but
tries to be jumping human.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
That's well, plas to my guess today is Deborah cart Right.
She has written and co written a number of books
with other authors who specialize in Quebecley Teppee Karrahan Teppe
in this region of Turkey that has these unusual underground

(28:36):
or subsurface temples. Yeah. And also I think you right
that the uh figurines and the design of the te
pillars has not only animals, but birds and other natures.

(28:57):
I guess the shaman are yeah talk.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
About that, Yeah, well they I think it's it's there
are so many animal carvings at the attached juggla Sis
more predominantly at Quebecit Tepe, but also at Karahan Teppie
that Obviously, when you're looking at this new saying is
it just decoration or is it evidence of some kind

(29:24):
of spiritual or mystical idea. The archaeologists themselves have come
to conclusion and accepted, yes, it is evidence of shamanism.
Shamanism is predominantly, as I've said, animal focused. They express
their understanding of the world, the universe, the cosmos existence

(29:46):
through animals. So animals are symbols of different types of emotion,
different types of forces, different types of powers, and different
types of expressions in the world around them. They use
animals as symbols for that, I suppose you because it's
a highly complex, more form of astrology. But it's not
just star signs. It's everything. Don't everything through their relationship

(30:11):
with animals. So when you see all these animals at Teppi,
you see kind of vultures and scorpions and snakes and
birds and cranes and pumas and wolves and turtles. I
mean it's never acting animals. You know, dozens of different
types of animals, snakes, particularly serpents, which they see is

(30:32):
a sign of the of the earth, power of the
earth itself. So you see all of these it's very
difficult to deny that tash Tepla were indeed shamanic in
their approach, and these shrines and the enclosures themselves as
structures themselves were built from possibly a shamanic purpose. It's

(30:53):
it's becoming increasingly difficult even for anthropologists and psychologists to
ignore that.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah, you right, that test Teplars may have viewed physical
life as an illusion. Talk about that that's very shamanic,
especially if they're using psychedelics to go on in a vision. Question,
yeah and leave the body.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
But yes, yeah, Well, psychedelics, as Terence need as lot
as many kind of like anthropologies, sort of more alternative
anthropologists has suggested that, you know, shamans and shamanism does
use psychedelics. It doesn't rely on them, but they do
use psychedelics for certain rituals and things like soul journeys

(31:39):
and death journeys. Quest journeys to leave the middle world
and go into the sky world or the underworld require hallucinogenics.
So they don't use them all the time. They're not
total druggies. They use them as a tool whose jets,
as a tool if they have to go on along
soul journey. Usually you know way in to the to

(32:04):
the sky world, to the stars, or beneath to the underworld.
Because the shamans and shamanic tribes worldwide all have the
same perspective. Now, this is what makes it really interesting.
You know, shaman shamanic tribes who have never had any
contact with each other in the Amazon to Africa, to
Siberia to Australia, all have the same common belief in
a three world idea. Really that yeah, that the world

(32:29):
is divided, the existence is divided into the middle world,
or the physical earth, that we're upon, the sky world
of the stars, and the universe and beyond which they
saw as this vast cosmic ocean, and the underworld, which
is a place where all the spirits of the animals
that reside on the earth come from the underworld, and

(32:52):
it's a place of great power that they can draw
the spirit of the underworld into them. So these are
three separate realms, and they shamanic tribes more or less
or have this worldview or what they call this cosmology,
I suppose. So hallucinogenics are used when a shaman wants
to travel to the style world, the sky world, or

(33:14):
the underworld to get to retrieve knowledge or to maybe
locate a spirit that the tribe needs or it needs
to perform a particular ritual or healing or a divination
of some kind of a prophecy, or to get some
kind of knowledge or power. And the idea of like
I suppose, reality being an illusion is is mixed up

(33:37):
in that idea of this three world hypothesis because they believed,
or shamanic cultures, especially you know, prehistoric and ancient shamanic cultures,
believe that life originated in the sky world, Their origins
are in the sky world, that they came from a
vast cosmic ocean of chaos when there was no matter

(34:00):
and no physical life, and that the Middle world rose
out of this cosmic ocean as physical matter. And then
when that happened, this sort of cosmic ocean split into
dualism and into order, and chaos was destroyed. And so
the shaman believes that the reality that we see, like

(34:24):
all the physical things in the world. The idea that
you and I, Cliff are separated, the idea that we're
separate beings, and the idea that you know, there's opposites
up down, left, right, good, bad, dark nights, You know, day, night, male, female,
all of those things. Those dualities of physical dualities are
an illusion. They're not what's real. What's real is where

(34:48):
they came from. And so that's this vast cosmic ocean oneness,
and they believe through consciousness everything is one. The separation
is an illusion. So and that's how they can work
their magic because they can communicate with things because they
aren't they totally positively accept that they are connected to everything.

(35:10):
And of Westerners, you know, as modern Westerners, we very
much have this juristic idea we're very separate from the world.
So one thing, you know, Yeah, to say that reality
is an illusion is not wrong when we're looking at
shamanic beliefs. And I don't thinkush Templar were any different.
There's no evidence that they were any different. There's more
evidence that they did think this interesting.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
Do you think that during their vision quest that the
shaman were able to see into the future and this
is why they decided to cover up these underground temples
because someone in the future us would see them and
be able to decode who they are, even though we
haven't really decoded very much.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Not much yet, No, not much yet. Us we're all
just scratching the surface at the moment, aren't we But
I mean, that's an interesting idea. Who knows. That's something
that I don't think could ever be known for sure
unless somebody builds a time machine and goes back, But
which which could happen. I think that it's obviously prophecy,

(36:19):
and for telling the future is something that shamanic cultures
do claim to be able to do, and worldwide again,
and both current shamanic surviving shamanic cultures in the world
and previous prehistoric or ancient shumanic cultures all claimed that
their shamans can foretell the future. So that's not unusual.

(36:41):
So we can speculate that tach Tepler was the progenitor
shamanic culture of human civilization. Wow, then you know, then
it's like that they could have done that. But the
interesting thing is, you know, why would they've covered up
these enclosures like you just said, Why would they deliberately
fill them and bury them? And this is something that's

(37:03):
got the old philosophical nugging working. And I know I'm
not talking about this in my talk this year. It's
something I am going to include in the book when
it's done. And that is the idea that in shamanic
cultures you find that if particular ritual tools or ritual
enclosures or shamanic spaces become what they consider contaminated or

(37:31):
defunct or they fail to work, they're not functioning anymore
as a shamanic machine. They are either they are abandoned
or if it or if it's a space they're filled in.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
So yeah, and there's lots of kind of parallels with this.
If you really look into the custom, traditions and practices
of the surviving shamanic cultures that still, by the skin
of their still exists today, then you can find these parallels.
It's not it's they're not buried, it's not hidden. And

(38:07):
I think the problem with research into tash Scheppler mech
Tepee Antipe is a people have been looking at it
very much with a kind of modern Western mind almost
a colonial kind of mindset, and they don't think to maybe,
why don't we go and get tribal perspectives on this,
Why don't we go and get an anthropologist who is

(38:29):
or even just a Western anthropologist who studied tribal perspectives,
that those are never included, not even by the archaeological teams.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
Why do you think that is doing that? Why wouldn't
they look into the indigenous cultures?

Speaker 2 (38:43):
And I think because well, in Turkey of the indigenous
cultures are gone, they don't exist anymore, so that's very
difficult to do it. In terms of local indigenous tribes.
The closest thing to that would have been, I suppose
the sort of tribes that would have existed in southeast

(39:03):
Turkey at the time, you know, in maybe the Bronze Age,
which would have been Yazidis, the Yarasan, the Alevi, those
types of Kurdish tribes. And you can look at those
perhapices and ideas of those traditions. But I suppose because
there isn't that indigenous thing that there is if you're
studying some remains in South America or you're studying some

(39:25):
monuments or prehistoric remains in Africa, you've got those tribes
that still exist. So they're that easy parallels to make
trying to polish as archaeologists. But that isn't the case
with Quebeca Tepy and its ages against it. You know,
it's so old, it's the oldest. Yeah, it's ancient, say
it's the oldest, possibly the oldest kind of settled similar

(39:49):
evidence or remains of an settled civilization that exists. So
it's it's very difficult to do that. So I guess
they don't do that for that reason. And also I
think it's a mindset, you know, this whole colonial mindset
of you know, this analytical Western mind it's very difficult

(40:10):
to understand the mindset of somebody who isn't like that,
whose mindset's completely alien too, sort of orthodox Western modern minds.
It's you know, they and it's something that is a philosophy.
It's philosophy. It's something they don't go into phenomenology, it's philosophy.
They don't consider it. But my position is, I think

(40:31):
you have to. If we're going to understand who these
people were, we have to think about shamanism. We have
to think about hi historic mindsets, and we have to
think about how these ancient world views in tribal cultures
and shamanic cultures as well as the high civilizations of
Egypt and Suma and Mesopotamia, as well as those high cultures,

(40:52):
we have to look at shamanic perspectives. And I've been
doing that and it is revealing answers.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
It really is fantastic. I want to include a few
of the sculptures that they've found at Go Beckley Tepping.
You feature earth Man who Saw and by the way,
for those of you listening, if you ever get a
chance to go to Turkey to Seego Beckley Teppy, find
the museum there. Oh yes, yes, very very well done,

(41:19):
very high regards. You know, no expense faltered. I mean
it was just amazing. But talk about earth Man and
it's important that some of the things that you've just conected.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, well Man is probably the most important artifact that
has been uncovered from the taesh Teplar Artifacts monument structures.
Sometimes it's the most important one that's been uncovered today
because I believe that that one statue holds the answer

(41:55):
to every question everyone wants to know about touch Tepler
statue if you look at it in a different way.
And so I think it was March twenty twenty four.
It was the first time I saw it in person.
I've seen pictures. So I went to the Shandler for
Museum with Andy Collins on a research trip and it's

(42:20):
the most beautiful museum. It's the best museum I've ever
been to in.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
It's so well doe.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
I just yeah, absolutely blown away. Honestly, the British Museum
and the Egyptian Museum, Nope, go to Shaneer for museum
and all the answers to all the questions you ever
want to know are in that museum. So the raiders,
Andy Collins and I we you know, we went through
there and you have to go through all the kind
of like Bronze Age and the child Glificate and you

(42:47):
go through all the late classical stuff, and I's zipping
through all the other ageas because, as Andrew Collins says,
I don't get out of bed for Bronze Age. So
we're just running running age. I'm like to have a look. No, no, no,
you have to going to see this now. So we
go into the Neolithic. Let's go straight down the tunnel
into the Anithic area of the museum, and the first

(43:09):
thing that confronts you is this thing is the earth
for statue. There's nothing else in the room with it.
It's on its own. It's just about that. And you
look at it and you're like, oh my, it's about
six and half tool. I don't it's big. It's big,
so it's human. It's life size, it's human size. It's

(43:29):
tatanic though, because it doesn't seem to have the bottom
half of it part of its legs. And the first
thing you notice is it's gaze. You cannot take your
eyes off its eyes, and it's it's not it's more
than just the picture of the eyes following you around
the room. It's like holding your gaze. It's like mesmeric,
like a snake, you know, like you want to look
away because you're terrified, but you can't. This snake's gaze.

(43:53):
That's what it's like. It's penetrating, challenging gaze. And immediately felt, now,
I don't get comfortable with eye contact a tour. I'll
never be uncomfortable, like you eye contact in my life,
I'm not. That's not one of my my things that
I have. So I but I was uncomfortable. I wanted

(44:14):
to look away but couldn't. And then I noticed it
that doesn't have a mouth.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yes, very has no mouth.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, it has no mouth, And I thought that is
the first thing. It's not human. It's not a human statue.
Because some of the other tah temperate statues they have mouths,
you know, and all this sort of thing, and they look,
you know, they have all of the features of a human.
So I thinking, this thing doesn't have a mouth, and

(44:42):
doesn't I mean, And the first thing I'd think of was,
like I said, Andy, this is exactly like the eye
idols of the Bronze Age where the emphasis is on
the eyes and there's no mouth.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
Oh right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
So I sort of if there they are. Look these
eye idols from intel Brac from this slightly late period
of Chocolithic period, which is a bridge between the Neolithic
of the taesh Tipla and the Bronze Age. So that's
the bridging period, the Chocolithic period. And these these eye
idols are found only four hundred kilometers away from Shandlerva

(45:19):
in a psych called tell Brac. And I looked into
the archeology with papers about this, and to cut a
long story short, it seems to be that they believe
that the eye idols were created as some kind of
prehistoric shamanic voice technology. They don't believe there were gods

(45:39):
or goddesses. They believed that they were created as a
form of the shamanic focus and that they were placed
these these images or icons. They're much smaller than earth man,
so they can only be about that big, maybe a
feat at the most, sometimes smaller. And they were placed

(46:00):
around elements. They know they've found them where there would
have been springs or open fires, and it's believed that
the noise of the crackling flames or the rushing of
water begins to become the voice of the icon. And
this shamanic belief that the elements, through the statue was

(46:20):
enabled them to hear the voices of the dead. So
they don't have a mouth of flesh and tongue and
teeth because they don't speak the language of the living.
The dead do not have a mouth to speak, so
they speak only through the forces of the elements, the
raw nature, through the water, through the whispering water, through

(46:41):
the crackling planes. So the eye idols then are kind
of telephone to the other side, if that makes sense,
a kind of prehistoric voice technology. And so when I
was looking at Earth and then I was like, this
is possibly the oldest eye idol for a start, that's
just the start.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
What is the sure the square eyes in there, it's
very strange.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, they are, they're basically like blocks of obsidian.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Obsidian, okay, obsidian? Yeah, but why why square in that
route is so.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Funny exactly, it's very that's very unique. And I think
it's because obsidian is actually quite difficult to I mean,
Andy will know all about this more than me, you know. Yeah,
it's the tool technology. Obsidian being the volcanic glass, is
very difficult to make something round or you know, so

(47:38):
it would just be a flint thing where they would
cut it and it would have straight edges. So I'm
guessing it's to do with the way that obsidian is
carved or broken up, and is why they're square. But
it's still why they're black is interesting and not just
hollow or whatever. And I come onto that in my

(47:59):
tour later in great detail about how about how these
obsidian eyes may have reflected the cosmication, the deepest, darkest
point in the universe from which all life originates. So
and they are reflection of the night sky and the
night waters. So that's all comes into my talk. But

(48:20):
for nour sort of standing there thinking, oh my god,
you know, this isn't an eye, idol, it doesn't have
a mouth, because it speaks the language of the dead,
so that this is why it's not human.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
our sponsors to identify themselves and we all return shortly
with my guest today, Deborah Cartwright discussing the shaman astronomers
of Goldbeckley Tepee will be right back. Warning mens.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
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That's just thirty.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Get that little flame.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Cantfer me kill it with their little little sound. Just
worthy feeling breaking down here.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
My guest today is Deborah cart Right. She is presenting
at the at the upcoming Origins Conference November first in England.
You can see it live by going to Origins Conference
dot co dot uk and registering for the streaming media
presentation and the entire conference. And I wanted you to

(49:56):
talk a little bit about and you're right about this,
the her aphid. Well this is a huge, huge deal, huge.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Deal because we're standing there and you know, a part
of them not being able to look away from the
face and talk about the eyeyedol and then you look
down and I just thought hold on a minute. The
penis has been what's that other long bit and the
long bit that's adjacent to the penis? And I thought,

(50:27):
hold on a minute. In tribal cultures, they use ties
to tie the general the male genital aside or the
male member aside. So I'm thinking, if it's tying it aside,
why what's that underneath it? And I'm thinking, I said, Andy,
that's a cavity there with this red staining. I said,
to me, that looks like China. I said, I'm pretty

(50:48):
certain that this is depicting an intersex being, an intersex thing.
It's not a human, So we can't sign intersect person
and intersex being of kind.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
What is intersex defined as though?

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Intersex defined as the old word, the old word for it,
the old fashioned word for its hermaphrodites. Genital Yeah, it
means that you're born with both male and female genitalia,
and intersex humans intersex individuals. Today you have to go
for this horrendous process of you know, choosing whether to

(51:27):
live as a male or female all this, and it's
it's very traumatic. But noticing this, I thought, okay, okay,
why is this statue that isn't human, which is the
kind of really old eye idol that may have been
used to channel the voices of the dead or those
beyond in the cosmic ocean. Why would it be intersex?

(51:50):
And then when we look behind, you can see that
it's got this curved body shape, like a kind of
feminine hips and buttets like it's it's got a feminine
body shame. I think that's even more evidence that it's intersex.
And I think, to my knowledge, when we got over
the shock of this, we've spent the last it was

(52:12):
March twenty twenty four and I said to Andy, this
is intersex. I'm sure of it. And I think from
that point almost March twenty four to now I have
spent a year and Andy certainly has us helping me
as well to work out what the bloody hell that
thing is. If it's intersex, it has no mouth, and
it had you know, all these things. And so my

(52:33):
talk will be a lot about that, about why it
is intersex, and in just to sort of give a
kind of idea, it's in many, many ancient cultures, not
just shamanistic beliefs, but ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia. In
ancient Persian and vestern and in the original v dit
or Indo European Northern Indian tradition, there is this idea

(52:57):
that life started in a cosmic ocean, and first of all,
there were just minds. There was no bodies. There were
just minds, and these minds weren't male and they weren't female,
and they lived in a homogeneous state of unification of
being one until there was fractured into physical life and
intiduality into male and females. So in these ancient cultures,

(53:20):
intersex is seen as a representation of an original god
or mind or being or consciousness from the primeval cosmic ocean,
before the creation of physical life, so the Big Bang.
If you're like so, they're seen as something quite the
revered as something quite sacred. They're revered not as a god,

(53:42):
but as a kind of representative of the source, I suppose,
or the original state that we all existed in before
physical life split us into so, and that idea is
seen in all of the big supercultures, the prehistoric world
as well, and tribes. So there is definitely something in this.

(54:03):
And I think that Earth Earth, for they, it's not
many to be great. So someday, I just say, look
the Earth for statue, the Earth for being, because that's
what it is. The Earth for being is is pretty
much the biggest key that we have to understanding the

(54:27):
cosmogony and the cosmology and the philosophy and the practices
of what tached Tekla Shaman's work too. So that's what
the talk is primarily talking about. So don't miss it.
On the first November.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Let me ask you real quickly. I have been to
Carahan Tippy and they have found I think I was
there a couple of years ago. They had found a
freestanding male figure holding his penis.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Was very unique, but it wasn't broken up like this
poor guy is This guy looks he was purposely broken
in to yeah, to be able to be buried. And
it's like why why did they do that?

Speaker 2 (55:08):
But I guess, yeah, it's something we can't know. But
there are some researchers that are looking into the idea
that shan Lerfer may have been the inspiration behind the
biblical earth of the birthplace of Abraham where the statue
was found. Was is that a place of natural springs

(55:33):
will converge in these pools that's near where to the
Earth's statue was found, and they called the pools of Abraham,
And it's certainly a belief that Abraham.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Was was was.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Was born there. And in the story of Abraham, we
have a lot of idea that he rejected the culture
of Earth as idolatrous, even though I think Abraham's father
may created eye idols or created idols in that period,

(56:05):
so I think Abraham's rejection of it. You know, the
fact that the statue is smashed up, and Abraham said
to have smashed his father's idols and smashed all the
idols of Earth before leaving as idolatrous, and the fact
that this idol is smashed up is really interesting. You know,
this is pure speculation, but it's very interesting. So we

(56:28):
can't know why, but that's an interesting story or an
interesting connection to the Bible, I suppose.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
I mean, unless you know of other examples, I don't
think anything like Quebecley Teppy and these other teppees have
been reproduced in other parts of the world where they
completely destroy, not destroy, but they collapsey. Yeah, they collapse
these pillars and the sculpture and completely bury it.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
They just buried it, they filled it and buried it.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Where do we see other examples of Gobley?

Speaker 2 (57:02):
We don't. That's the that's the mystery. We don't.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
We have the single minded ideas by these people. We
just don't see another location.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah, I mean my speculation is that there may have
been disease because obviously there's a lot of excarnation platforms,
there was a lot of you know, corpses about should
we say, around the enclosures, and there may have been
disease and that is a signal for any humanic culture

(57:31):
that it's contaminated. The spirits are gone, it won't function.
So you've fill it in, you bury it. So that's
that's going to be my hypothesis as part of the
book that I'm working on. Other people have other ideas
about why it may have been filled in, and I
think they just have to be ideas at this stage
and just propositions that we can all debate about and

(57:54):
talk about as possibilities. Really had a little bit of
well that could, that could that I'm not ruling that out.
I mean, I'm not ruling out that primitive forms of
writing might be found even more like a proto cuneiform
almost you know, it can't be ruled out. There's archaeology

(58:17):
Karahan Heeppe. For instance, that when we were there, we
were told we were walking around on the hill nearby
and they said, see these stones coming out the top
and I said, well, they're just stones on the grass,
and I know they're the tops of tea pillars. You're
walking around on another enclosure. I said, you look look
down there at the horizon. So we said that that

(58:38):
is all you know, Karahan he eppy underneath he said,
there was one hundred years of archaeology here, isn't it
a hundred years.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Time excavating the excavation?

Speaker 2 (58:50):
So I'm not ruling anything out.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
Was that deb was recently March twenty four oh last year.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Yeah, yeah, was the last time I was able to visit,
or I haven't been able to visit this year, so
but yeah, so it's I'm not ruling anything out in
terms of what could be found it. Whole skeletons are
unlikely because the conditions aren't great to preserve bone fossils,

(59:18):
unlike Siberia where you get whole schools and teeth and
things coming out with preserved DNA. And so I think, yeah,
proto writing why not, it's it's possible, or sure break
the blow everywhere? Yeah it would, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
You know, I don't. We have a few minutes left.
Can you address the cosmology aspect here, because we're still
in the dark. We're still guessing that they're looking at
star alignments and perhaps using it for agricultural purposes. We
just don't know. But what's the latest? What do you
what are your feelings?

Speaker 2 (59:57):
I think my personal feeling and what I'm going to
talk about the origins this year if you can what
come or you want to stream it, is that it's
all of the things that people have said about what
the rectepe was used for. I'm not going to argue
with I think, yeah, I think that's true. I think they
were there were star alignments. I think the death journey

(01:00:20):
that Greg Littl and Andrew Collins talk about in their
books in their co authored books The Death Journey of
the Sham and Going Back to the Stars were turning
to the source. I'm not going to argue with any
of that. I'm just proposing that we look about why,
and I'm proposing we look about maybe the whole reason

(01:00:40):
why they were built is not just for all these
different purposes, but for one unifying principle, and maybe that
was two. I kind of thought they call a form
of dialectical monism, and that's the idea that monism is
the idea that everything is one or one conscious and

(01:01:00):
separation is an illusion. And the Vedic tradition and the
Sadus in Hinduism and Shivism believe this. But dialectical modism
is a deliberate action against that. It's like an activity
or a mindset against dualism, against opposition, so against you know,

(01:01:22):
the building of the twin pillars, the building of everything twins.
This twins that. It's all kind of like a representation
of existence on the middle world, in the physical world,
and maybe they were trying to leave that and leave
a kind of illusion, leave the illusion maybe they thought
of as death and physically die and return to what

(01:01:43):
they understood as life, which is.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
They're looking at the star systems, the constellations more esoterically
than perhaps astronomically. Both.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I think it's both. Yeah, there's a unifying ex principle,
a unifying cosmogony underneath. Why they look at the astrology,
why they look at the stars, why they've built the monuments,
why they've got all the animals and why they've got
this Everything is unified by one particular principle and that
origin story or cosmogony. I think that is a form

(01:02:20):
of dialectical monism and opposition to dualism, and a project
to maybe reunify the sky world with the middle world,
reunify that fracture that happened maybe because of the comet impact.
In their mind, that's when the sky world and the
middle world and the underworld became fractured and separated, that homogeneous,

(01:02:41):
that state of chaos or unification in this cosmication was fractured,
and maybe all of these sites are a project, a
reunification project to go back to being one. It is
an idea that I'm going to be talking about, and
I think it's got some lengths because we see it
in many other traditions that have been inspired by Quebeci Teppe,

(01:03:05):
like the Vedic traditions. So yeah, so nobody's wrong, but
I think that there's an underlying cosmogony that should be
thought about.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
So is it your belief that these are kickstarting humanity sites,
reintegrations of thoughts and also agricultural.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Okay, yes, Yeah, I think it's a major project that
hunter gatherers from miles or miles around, maybe even hundreds
of miles around, would have come to take part in events,
to take part in rituals, to take part in warrior gains,
all kinds of things, and so there would have had
to have been some kind of subsistence to sustain that.

(01:03:48):
So I think it does rest necessarily present the very
beginnings of agriculture and settle subsistence, purely because the project itself,
why it was there and why people went to visit
it and take part in the things going on there,
would have necessitated some kind of settled subsistence. So again

(01:04:08):
that's all wrapped up into it. You know, this project,
when that's going on in the in the Harand plane,
this tash tech for civilization. If we can find out
what the underlying cosmogeny is, if we can pinpoint that,
everything else, the astrology, because you know, the cosmology, the science,
the shame is, everything else falls into place. If that

(01:04:29):
makes sense. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Fantastic, Hey, Dev Cartwright, fantastic. I'm really looking forward to
hearing your talk. You're going to be speaking at Origins.
It's November first from ten am to seven pm.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Yeah, I'm on first.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
If you can't get to England, you can see her
live by going to Origins Conference dot co dot uk
and dooing the streaming program. Hugh I did a great
job last year. He told me he has the same
company that will be stream mean it for fifty bucks.
That's so cheap.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
But come on, find out about what the first mindset
of you know, where we come from is, what was it?
I mean, come on to this exciting stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Hey, in your research, have you found another kickstart? Go
Beckley Teppy and anyplace else in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Not yet, not yet, well other than Maltabacl There's are
the multibacle culture of Siberia a lake lake, Lake Bagel
that that is a very interesting culture. I mean that
day's twenty five thousand BC and that twenty five thousand BC,

(01:05:46):
twenty one thousand BC, something like that. And they produced
some very sophisticated artifacts and objects. They weren't a settled
side those structures. They were had to gather a nomadic
but they produce these amazing you know artifacts and things
that are animal based, like things made of swans and

(01:06:08):
swan bones and birds and all very much, signifying that
they had a kind of shamanic idea of a soul
journey to the afterlife by a bird, just like Addie
Collins says in his books about Jetler and about quebec Teppe.
So that's in Siberia. And as I said earlier, the
migration routes between the Swaderian culture from Siberia to Anatolia.

(01:06:31):
More and more people are coming to the idea that
that is a possibility. So the multibeker culture is very
interesting as a progenitor culture, as is the Dinsiban culture.
I mean, come on, the Doniciban Cave in Siberia. They
have found artifacts there that just make your hair curl,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
But there's no settled physical structures, not yet. No, not yet.
We have to keep saying not yet, because you know,
things just things are just getting pushed back and back,
don't they.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
So yeah, things just keep getting older. Do I have
to wonder if the asteroid hit was so devastating to
those in the Atlantic area, Atlantic Ocean and the nearby
continents that it was terminating just wiped everything out. And

(01:07:25):
this is why gobec Tepe is so unique. That it
was a regenerated.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Reaction, a reaction to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So
I'm just looking at what exactly that reaction was, so
that that's what I'm doing. So but yeah, I think
a fracture, a belief in a fracture of the sky
world and the middle world and the underworld, and a
reunification project. Maybe that's what it was all about.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
What will you be looking for the next visit to Turkey.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Well, in the next visit to Turkey, we are hoping
to be looking at going further east Andy and I
into Armenia and looking at some of the later tribal
traditions and sites that have come up around there and
how they may be more directly connected to tash Schepter stuff.

(01:08:20):
So that's what and and I'll be looking at Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Do you know about a course. I don't know if
you know about this or not, but they basically had
halted excavation of go Beckley Tabby for I think it's
a couple of years.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Or more something like that. Yeah, it was to do.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Jim Corsetti was on the Due Rogan program and basically
said he accused the organization of stopping inappropriately and I
don't know if it was his outcry or others. But
they're back digging it up again. And if knocked over
a lot of those olive trees which were straight buried

(01:08:58):
on top of the excavations.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, So I don't know controversy, conflict, struggles, politics, decisions, strategy,
basically I've kept out. We do know that excavations now
will continue, so you know, and we know that that
is going to go ahead, and so you know, we
just I'm just one of those people that are on
beta breath all the time, you know, about what's being

(01:09:23):
uncovered and stuff. So and this is as as as
we've been told hundreds of years of work. It's not
going to end with any ideas I've got here, and
it's not going to end with anything that any of
us can write in a book. It's going to keep
going on and on.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
So long long after we are turned it down. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hey, damn,
real pleasure having you on the program. Looking forward to
hearing more about your work. And uh, when your book
comes out, let's have you back, Let's have you back.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Yeah. Well, I've got to I've got to write it.
It's just a synopsis at the moment I'm looking.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
For a publish I have that same problem. I'm trying
to get books out. So I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Heyal pleasure, it's lovely, Thanks for having me, and then
I will see you on the other side.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Don't forget that conference is November one. It's a Saturday
from ten am to seven pm, depending where you're located.
You can have it streamed live. And by the way,
it's automatically recorded and saved, so if you pay for it,
you can't make the entire presentation, you can at least
catch part of it and then watch the other parts

(01:10:37):
that you have missed at another time. For more information
and to register for the streaming service, go to Originsconference
dot CU dot uk and you can download the whole
form and it is one two three. I highly recommend
that you consider this presentation is full of really good people.

(01:11:00):
One of my favorite people of all time is Robert Temple,
who will be talking on Egypt. I think he's speaking
on this think so we'll have to see So good
to have Deborah on the program. I want to remind
you we have our Grand Egyptian Tour seven coming up
April twenty eighth through May tenth. This is a megalithic tour.

(01:11:25):
It's a very rare tour and it is not to
be missed. We only take about twenty people with us,
So if you're interested, go to Earthacients dot com forward
slash tours and look at the itinerary. If you have
any questions whatsoever, send me an email. Send it to
Earth Ancients the number four the letter you at Gmail

(01:11:45):
and go hey, Cliff, I need more data. Tell me
about this tour. It's rare, it's completely unique, and we
will see some of the largest statuary, if not the
largest statuary in the world. And our host is Muhammed
Ibrahim and also Armando May will be speaking one night

(01:12:09):
on the Mega an update on the stars, technology and
what's going on with the Pyramids and so and the
other thing I want to remind you is that most
of these tours are ten or twelve thousand. Our tours
are half that much, half that much, and you get
twelve days of intense enjoyment exploration. And we'd make a

(01:12:33):
special trip to the Grant Egyptian Museum in Cairo. By
November fifteenth, the whole museum will be available, which is
fantastic and it's amazing. For more information, go to earthasients
dot com, forward slash Tours register and then you will

(01:12:54):
enjoy an amazing tour. Okay, that's it for this program.
I want to think my guest today Deborah Cartwright, coming
to us from England. As always, the team of Guiltur,
Mark Foster and Faya from Pakistan. You guys rock all right,

(01:13:16):
take care of every well and we will talk to
you next time at co Op in the barn on

(01:14:05):
the cot, in the bad out in the road out
int