Exhaustion: The War at Work

The first installment of our 3-episode arc, covering the topic of exhaustion in education and the professional life. Dr. Jordan Lauer and Dr. Ryan Jackson bring the fight to the issue of exhaustion in education and professionalism so educators are no longer victims to the issue, paving the way for us all to become mavericks in our field.

In our three segments we unpack the state of modern education (exhausting); discussing the demands of the job, politics, grooming (yikes!), and the modern classroom. The current student and the experience teaching them: behavior issues, classroom management, cellphones, the teenage brain (yikes again!) and the unseen items students may be carrying causing many of their most perplexing behaviors. And finally, we discuss what educators may be doing to themselves to raise their level of exhaustion.

Come join the fight!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Educational Warfare Podcast.

(00:15):
Here on this show, we're going to take the fight to the issues in education instead of
falling prey to them.
We know that education is a hard profession.
And let me tell you, it is a profession, with a proper understanding and steps, we can all
become mavericks in our field and not just martyrs to its difficulties.
This is a podcast designed explicitly to cut through the rhetoric, to get past the platitudes,

(00:46):
to really help educators, I believe, through this cognitive dissonance, which is everything
we hear on podcasts, we're reading in books, we go to seminars, we go to workshops.
I mean, it's just overtly positive.
It's a little rose colored glasses too much.
So this podcast is designed to cut through that noise and really connect with educators

(01:09):
on a human level about what they're experiencing and going through, providing strategic solutions,
practical pieces to help educators in this long standing fight to improve the lives of
children.
So get ready, Educational Warfare.
Here we go, baby.
Let's rock.

(01:30):
I'm Dr. Jordan Lauer, husband, father of three, I've been a classroom teacher for 15 years.
I've done so many things within education, as we all have.
RTI2B coordinator, PLC coach, author of Superintendents as De facto Politicians for School

Administrator Magazine and I'm the author of the upcoming book, The 2 Backpacks (01:46):
Understanding
Teens and What They Carry, and I'm your friend. And my partner is . . . Dr. Ryan Jackson, founder
of Fit Leaders.
I've also been in education for approximately 20 years.
My career began back in Metro Nashville Public Schools as a substitute teacher beginning
in 2004.

(02:08):
I extended that journey all the way as a top 10 finalist for principal of the year in the
state of Tennessee in 2022.
I'm currently the executive director for Kids on Stage of Murray County.
We are a nonprofit dedicated to closing the industry education gap and empowering young
people through personalized feedback and mentor connections with industry professionals.

(02:33):
It's my honor to be here with you today.
You know, I also live with my wife, just celebrated our 11th year anniversary and she has a 19
year teaching veteran.
So big shout out to my wife, Dr. Leticia Skade Jackson.
So I live with an educator.
I am an educator myself.
Dr. Laura, as I know you are too, man, you certainly have that full education vibe going

(02:56):
on in your house, but honored to be here with you guys today.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, you know, me as well.
So when we're talking to you here today, we're talking about the field of education, as Dr.
Jackson said, we both, you know, my wife is an educator of 18 years, you know, teach middle
school, seventh and eighth grade history.
So shout out to my wife, Ashley Lauer.

(03:18):
So we are a family here together of educators and we're talking about these issues we're
going to talk about.
We know what we're talking about.
We live this, we breathe this.
This is our life.
So Ryan, I'm super excited to be doing this with you.
You know, we are going to be talking about this.
So let's kind of explain what we're going to be doing here.
So this first, what we're going to do is we're setting up this educational warfare here.

(03:43):
And by the way, you can find us if you have any questions or want to just comment, you
can find us at educationalwarfare.pod at gmail.com.
And what we're doing here is we're going to set up a topic of exhaustion and we're going
to do a three episode arc over exhaustion.
And the episode you listen to right now is called the wart work.
So we're talking about today how, why we're exhausted, how, how education causes us to

(04:08):
be exhausted and the things that do that.
So I'm excited to be here, Ryan.
I'm excited to talk to you about it.
So yeah, let's get to it.
Absolutely.
Let's get this done.
We're talking about first is the state of modern education.
And I'm going to tell you right now, it's just exhausting.
It's that easy.

(04:29):
The state of modern education is exhausting.
So as teachers and frankly, as professionals, anything, one thing that drives that exhaustion
are the demands of the job.
So Ryan, is there anything comes top of mind for you that's like a really exhausting first
demand of teaching and just being a professional?

(04:50):
And I think, and let's go there, but before we do, let's just qualify that exhaustion
real quick for people.
And I think when we're talking about exhaustion here through the lens of an educator's life,
and I use that word intentionally life, not just workload, but their life, man, exhaustion
is just so prevalent.

(05:10):
It seeps into your physical, your emotional, I mean, your overall wellbeing, it really
just chips away at you over time.
So for some of us, we may be feeling more of that on the physical side.
For some of us, we may be feeling that more on the emotional wellbeing side and kind of

(05:30):
how that's impacting our soul.
But just wanted to qualify that exhaustion.
We're talking about how that encompasses an educator's entire wellbeing.
But just to dive right into your specific question, I think we got to jump onto workload.
If you're just talking about your typical teacher in the United States dropped into

(05:53):
any school, any state, any county, I think it's fair to say that workload is going to
be intense from day one.
And we could start specifically with number of students in class.
A lot of people just don't know legal maximums, all that kind of jazz, and then how teachers

(06:14):
have to balance that and leveling loads.
But I think starting there, just the sheer volume of students that teachers have to work
with.
Yeah, I think a lot of people outside the profession don't understand that when you
have whatever the amount of students in your room, that is that number of unique personalities
that you're dealing with.

(06:34):
And we have, as you said, legal maximums, but there's so many times those get pushed
back and within modern public education, those maximums are not seen as like, oh, this is
how many you... this is as many as you can have, but we'll go under that.
Most schools push you to that maximum.

(06:55):
My wife at her school, she has a science teacher, they lost a teacher, so they moved her to
a giant room and she currently had 37 seventh graders.
I couldn't even imagine.
And that is, you know, dealing with those personalities, like you said, those type of
things really drive that exhaustion that you have to bounce back and forth.
And let's not forget, often you're doing that seven times a day.

(07:19):
Right now, so let's play that out just for a second.
So there's the volume level.
I mean, just the literal piece of dealing with that many students.
And let's take teachers and let's do ourselves a favor here.
Let's pick on our wives for a second.
Let's take these teachers that we know, they're passionate, and they care, they have both

(07:39):
feet in on this.
And you're really trying to build the kind of relationships, I mean, these imperative
bonds with kids that are going to help unlock efficacy, help them reach their full potential.
And you're doing that with 37 students in a class times seven sometimes.

(08:01):
I mean, it just makes the job and this is how we're really going to peel this onion,
I think, as we go forward.
It makes the job almost untenable, man.
Like how can I really have that kind of impact with that many students in this short amount
of time?
Like how can I be a factor?
And obviously, probably get into, you know, and then I should say a part of that, you

(08:21):
know, you're trying to make that in a perfect world, you're doing that you are you're literally
wanting to make a difference.
And in a perfect world, you would you would attempt that and get as far as you can.
And then just try.
We also have to add into classroom management on top of that, like behavioral management.
It's not just, oh, I have all these people here who may raise their hand quietly.

(08:42):
It is you're dealing with the natural things of teenagers that they have.
I feel an exhausting part of that is you're attempting to do that and then you are sidetracked
by so many little natural parts of that.
And so it's like every time you're like, oh, I think that really went well.
Boom, something happens.
You're taking a step back now instead of really reaching them.

(09:02):
You're dealing with a couple issues here and there.
And I think, like you said, demands of the job, those class sizes, just having that many
students in there really, frankly, is exhausting.
And it I think a big part of it, how it starts to make us feel that we're not doing a good
job.
Mm hmm.
Which is which is a great bit there.
I mean, you said it starts to make us feel like and, you know, those small and perceptible

(09:27):
changes over time.
I mean, that stuff, once that crack happens and that chasm starts to open a little bit
and those thoughts continue to seep in, maybe I'm not as effective as I thought I could
be as I wanted to be.
And you continue to stare at those demands at this seemingly ever growing number of students

(09:50):
that get added to your class.
And you think this is hyperbole.
It's really not.
I mean, speak to any teacher worth their salt.
And they're going to tell you, look, the numbers keep growing.
You know, I saw just a piece out of Metro Nashville here and this is real time, like
ripped from the headlines.
You know, their numbers are growing at certain schools.
I mean, over capacity now.

(10:10):
And those numbers are just continuing to rise by the day.
So you ask any teacher about that impact on them, you know, not just physically the workload
of passing things out of the management piece, but just the sheer number of kids and how
that seeps into their subconscious, their consciousness and asks, am I doing this?

(10:32):
Can I do this?
Dangerous question.
Absolutely.
And I think, you know, sticking on the demands of the job here, now we're talking about class
size and all those different personalities.
Now add certain things in here like state or county pacing guides.
So you have this, you know, if you are not an educator and you're thinking like, alright,

(10:53):
so they're talking about they have a lot of kids in the class, I could see how that could
be stressful.
So I'm going to add another layer, like we're peeling back another layer to that onion and
demands of the job here for exhaustion.
Now add in you're trying to manage those behaviors.
You have that many students in your classroom.
Oh, and by the way, you have to teach this complex subject in five days or six classes

(11:14):
or seven, maybe to stay on the pacing guide so you can be prepared for the end of the
year test.
I mean, we're we're juggling with chainsaws here, man.
Like we're, you know, we're we're just literally and that's another thing.
It's exhausting.
It's like that alone.
What we've just talked about is exhausting.
And so we're going to go ahead and add that on.
Oh, by the way, you have to teach for in my example, you have to teach the roaring 20s

(11:36):
in seven days.
It's it's hard not to laugh, man, only because, you know, you're talking about pacing.
We're talking about essentially, you know, an example here in a Boston Marathon sized
group of people that we have to lead in this short amount of time to hit this pacing.

(11:56):
And I can't help but recall no child left behind and just the irony there, the sheer
number of students based on the pacing we have to keep up with teachers have to keep
up with that are falling behind because we can't meet their needs and match, you know,
their specific wants, needs, 504s, IEPs with this particular pacing guide.

(12:22):
Absolutely exhausting.
It is.
I'm going to kind of pull another thing here that's now we've talked to just a few of some
of the demands of the job and we're kind of transition to a little bit of an outside pressure
that can exhaust you because we're talking about all this and we could dive into all
the demands of job and I'm sure we will in upcoming episodes.

(12:43):
We'll have each one.
But politics, right outside of politics, coming into our classrooms, it's exhausting.
I feel like the idea I almost hate saying this word because you speak power to it by
saying it, but since it is in our vernacular now, grooming as it exhausts me that I have
to hear about that.

(13:03):
I know everybody listening is probably like, I'm so tired of like hearing about that.
But here's an example of this.
So Peter Green, an author for Forbes, had an article said, what are history teachers
really teaching students?
Not alone that as a history teacher exhaust me because the answer is history.
That's it.

(13:24):
Period.
Done.
But they really he went in to dive in because it has been talking of history and what we're
doing and are we teaching X and this and that?
Is it truthful?
That's been a lot in the public mind recently.
So he kind of dove into that and he actually there's a study from the American Historical
Association, which is the oldest professional association for historians in the U.S. from

(13:48):
found in 1894.
And the person leading that was Nicholas Krysika.
Nick, sorry if I butchered your name there.
And basically he found through that through the University of Chicago on that research,
he found that the criticisms are overblown and even unwarranted.
In this report, he said, first and foremost, we've learned that secondary school U.S. history

(14:11):
teachers are professionals who are concerned mostly with helping their students learn central
elements of our nation's history.
I just I read that I was sitting at home and I literally went, duh, like this is why I'm
exhausted, right?
And I think this is why a lot of teachers are exhausted because my wife looked over
said, what is going on?

(14:31):
I was like, just read this.
Right.
And I mean, so first of all, I have a couple more point of a couple more items that article.
What do you think about that just in terms of all teachers?
I mean, it's focused on history, but the first thing that comes to mind is just the sheer
lunacy of it.
And let's stick on.
Let's stick on this path of number of students per class, you know, and then spread that

(14:54):
out by the day.
If you have seven classes with thirty five kids per class.
OK, so let's just stay on that number for those numbers for a second and then let's
apply it to this.
You mean to tell me as tough as the job already is, we've referenced pacing, we've referenced
number of students, the various types of levels and learners that we have in all those classes.

(15:17):
So all of that that I'm dealing with multiple times a day, five days a week, four weeks
a month on top of all of that.
I'm going to groom each and every one of these students and the psychological just focus
time prep that would go into something of that magnitude.

(15:42):
I mean, it's beyond ridiculous, man.
It's where it does hit that exhaustion level of a I can't believe anyone would believe
this, but most people could fall victim to that because they just don't have the insights
of what's going on in a typical school building each and every day.
But, you know, be on top of that.
It's so laughable and frustrating.

(16:05):
I mean, I think educators at times just want to put their hands up because they just can't
believe that someone would even think that's possible.
Absolutely.
I mean, I love to think that I'm an intelligent person.
You know, I try to we both worked very hard to get the our doctorates and everything.

(16:25):
And it is ridiculous.
But I'm also somewhat flattered that many of these people think that I am a Dr. Doom
type nefarious character to where I'm just coming up with this plan that I'm also like,
you know, not only I'm doing my job to make sure that when my admin observe me, like I'm
running my class, but I'm also slowly slipping in these hypnotic messages that would make

(16:49):
this possible.
So the amount of the sheer amount of time to do that, I mean, I can't groom a student
when I have to tell the same student four times a week to bring a pencil to class.
You know, I can't even I can't even get him to remember to bring a pencil, let alone,
hey, by the way, here's this ploy, this plan.
So it's just it is exhausting.

(17:11):
And it just it kind of drives me nuts.
And as we talked about, we know this, our educational warfare here, we're not going
to sugarcoat this a lot of time.
Teachers want to play nice, right?
Like we don't want to bring the every our job is exhausting enough.
We're talking about that right now.
So we don't want to bring that onto us and get engaged in these like heavy conversations.
That's what we're doing here for you.
That's why we're we're not afraid to talk about this stuff.

(17:32):
I'm not afraid.
We're not afraid to call it out.
We're not afraid to say things like that.
We simply don't have time to indoctrinate.
The author of the article, Peter Green, in his next quote, said American high school
history classes, it turns out, are not run by Marxist radicals intent on indoctrination,
but by professionals who are serious about both teaching and to pass on that understanding

(17:58):
to their students.
If any of you are kind of wondering, want to kind of dive in deeper to this, you can
read the full report at historians.org.
That's just a little thing about that.
You know where I might push you on that a little bit, man, just just just for conversation
to get us thinking here is, you know, we talked about pacing guides and the intense nature

(18:21):
of that keeping up with that pace, the volume of students.
And I would say by and large, man, that's going to be true in most of your classes.
You know, these classes are in their design this way.
They are, you know, a mile long and an inch thick.
OK.
So what about something like an AP course, you know, Dr. Lauer, I mean, where you've

(18:42):
got a little bit more time to dig deep because the sections are a little more robust.
Right.
And I still think it's it's it's pure lunacy to even talk about grooming.
But there you would at least have some more times to really dig into ideas and where those

(19:03):
ideas could go and spiral out.
Just kind of kind of speak to that.
I mean, as if someone was arguing against you.
No, I'm not talking about, you know, history 101.
I'm not talking about U.S. history, general education.
I'm talking to the guy who teaches APX and takes it here inside.
Yeah, well, I mean, I currently teach AP European history right now.

(19:26):
Right. So one of just a little quick segue or a little quick sidebar here.
When you talk about a little more time, one thing I am exhausted and some AP teachers
out there may be like nodding their heads along with us, hopefully.
When we were some schools are in block.
For those who may not know, it's 90 minutes.
You have four classes a day.
When that was the case with AP, you had basically yearlong 90 minute classes.

(19:51):
A lot of schools are now transitioning to give students more opportunities, more classes
to the seven period, 45 or 48 minute plan.
AP is still a year long.
So they literally said, hey, you get a year, but less half the time you had before, which
is difficult.
So but to go kind of go back to what you're saying that in history, especially in an AP,

(20:16):
that's what we're doing in advanced placement.
AP classes is we're attempt.
We want them to dig deeper.
We want them to think.
And that's what gets me about the grooming pieces.
If you're arguing like, hey, yeah, you would have more time to do that.
That's what history is.
That's what that's what I mean.
That's where any learning is.
I want them to think analytically and deep and argue these things.

(20:38):
History is so nuanced in any classes.
I mean, it is.
It's not black and white.
So you're looking at these deeper things.
And a lot of the exhausting thing to me is that when these outside sources say that there's
grooming or indoctrination, honestly, what they're really attacking is that we're training
our kids to not hear something, accept it and move on.

(21:02):
And I think that's some of the fear of it is that we're training like my students.
I give them an argument.
I give them a prompt.
I give them an idea.
And I say, argue this side of it.
I literally was teaching my class how to do a document based question the other day.
And in there, it's an essay.
And in that one of their paragraphs, I make them do a counter argument paragraph, just

(21:23):
like you did to me there.
Hey, I want you to think what the other side would say and then show why your evidence
actually fights against that.
We're trying to teach them to think of both sides, to think deeper, think analytically.
And so when students start questioning things, when they're like, hey, why did we do this,
you know, talking about slavery, let's say, or talking about, you know, the concept that

(21:46):
slaves were here from the beginning and they actually helped build up our nation.
There are some people very angry about that, right?
There are some people out there thinking George Washington was just building buildings and
doing stuff.
It wasn't I asked them to literally say, hey, think about this.
And when they start talking and think about that, people are like, what are you learning?
That's what we want.
We want them to go that deep because that's how you make analytical, intelligent people.

(22:10):
And that's how we progress as a country.
We are not going to progress.
Let me push you again.
And this this this dovetails now into the exhaustion piece.
OK, so how do teachers then because I think this is a general fear.
Now I'm speaking as a guy who's been outside of a school building for almost two and a
half years in the role that I've been in.
So a little bit more objective here as I'm looking at also deal with a lot of industry

(22:34):
partners now.
So working with industry and how they perceive education, specifically public education.
But here's where I'm going to go with that.
How do you.
That your own bias.
So as a teacher, and I think this is what people are just really concerned about, worried
about, you know, your bias man is seeping into.

(22:57):
OK, so how do you because I mean, we're human beings, man.
So we've got it.
Let's let's just be upfront.
Let's address it that radical candor.
We're human beings.
We're going to have bias, which can be exhausting because now I'm a teacher and I have to mitigate
my own bias in order to not let that seep in.
You know, talk to me about that.

(23:18):
And that is exhausting and kind of framing it that way.
But just again, candid.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'll you know, I'll go as candid as possible.
I'll go from a real situation that just happened a few couple of weeks ago.
Right.
And history is great for talking about this for anybody who's not a history teacher.
You do this as well.
That's just we're talking about because it is the easiest to connect to this.

(23:39):
So yeah, we do.
I mean, we do have bias.
We have biases about things.
And it is really a lot most of the time, I think that goes to a part of us that a lot
of the world does not want to accept, acknowledge or understand.
Part one, we're professionals and the same as a surgeon, you know, the same as any doctor,

(24:03):
any lawyer, you know, you may have somebody in those situations come in front of you where
you may not feel super comfortable with that.
You know, if you're a lawyer and you're talking to a guy who you know is like, all right,
this guy is this guy is guilty, you know, like you just know, just wait.
But you do your job because that is the professional poll.
Right.

(24:23):
So you do have to hard stop them a lot of times, but they do kind of creep in and a
lot.
And I start my stuff with especially when I'm talking about U.S. history because I teach
you U.S. history honors as well on top of AP European history.
I tell my kids, I'm like, look, we're going to be talking about political stuff here because
that's U.S. history.
Right.
Half the stuff is laws, tariffs, they go amendments, different presidents, what they did.

(24:46):
I said, I'm going to I'm never going to attack a specific party for doing anything.
We're talking about something I tell them.
I was like, I'm going to call something out that's kind of dumb either way from either
side because that's the only way that you kind of know.
I'm like, this doesn't really make sense.
Here's why.
And you stay in a professional level.
But a real story just happened.
So I was talking about Harding did some terrorists and I was talking about

(25:08):
Warren G Harding.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I had to give myself a cool point for that.
So we're talking about that.
But then I went back to how William Howard Taft put in a bunch of tariffs, too.
And then Wilson Woodrow Wilson, everyone kind of slash those tariffs to like help the consumer.

(25:30):
And so I'm talking to my class and I'm like, hey, guys, you know, because half the time
as a history teacher, I'm trying to prove to them why what I'm saying actually matters.
So I'm like, hey, guys, this is I always tell them.
I'm like, look, history doesn't repeat itself.
It rhymes.
Yeah.
So the things that happen before the things that went with this rhyme, they come across.
So I'm saying, hey, we're talking about 1916 here and we're in 2024.

(25:55):
And guess what we're talking about right now?
Tariffs.
Yeah.
And so I'm like, this is why it's important.
So I'm talking about terrorists.
I'm kind of explaining them.
I'm like, I want you to understand them that way you can make your own decisions for things.
And I'm explaining to us very kind of flat line like that they do that.
And I get one of my next day, one of my principles, principles walks up to me with a folded printed

(26:18):
out email.
And it's from a student.
Basically that student interpreted what I was saying as an attack on former President
Trump because he wanted to do terrorists.
I never, I never went in that and never said this was dumb.
I was just explaining it because I wanted them to understand our current political situation.
So sometimes what's exhausting is like, I do have to stop my biases.

(26:42):
They do creep in.
But as long as you don't let them get to where I think there's a very big difference between
having a bias towards something, explaining it and just straight up bad mouthing a person,
you know, just straight up saying, I don't like this person.
You know, I never let my political affiliations get in the class.
Like I literally tell the students, I was like, sometimes you may think I'm X, you know,

(27:06):
I'm this party.
Sometimes you might think I'm this party.
You might think you have me pegged as, oh, he's a Democrat or he's a Republican.
And then all of a sudden I'll say something like, oh no, maybe he's the opposite.
You know, and then that's what I try to do.
And it's more letting them flush out their stuff.
But sometimes, which is exhausting, you could have the best intentions.
I'm literally trying to do my job in that point.
I'm trying to take something from the early 1900s and bring it to right now.

(27:30):
Bring that relevancy that we always ask for, like, why is this relevant?
And do that and explain it.
It was right before the presidential debate.
And so like I knew that would come up.
So I was like, hey, we're studying this now.
If you watch the debate, which you should as the students I'm teaching are juniors,
they're very soon going to be shoved into our world.
And I was like, you need to be a part of it now.
Yeah.

(27:50):
So watch it.
And then so like the best intentions, just trying to teach them.
I didn't get in trouble or anything, but the parent was or the principal was like, hey,
just to let you know this is kind of going on, so you may want to be careful.
You know, that's exhausting.
That like the rest of the day, I was relatively crestfallen.
Another example, another like kind of attacking education from the outside world is, oh, you

(28:12):
guys like don't teach anything useful.
You know, like you're talking this and that's exactly what I was trying to do.
I was bringing history alive and I still had to be, you know, I still had an outside force
kind of whack me in the head.
So there's and that's a great point and great story.
I appreciate your vulnerability there, you know, and sharing that and tying that into
exhaustion.

(28:33):
Here's more I wonder from me, you know, when we open ourselves up to that, I and I like
what you said and I'm going to pause before I finish that sentence there.
You know, here's another reality of education.
Either you're dealing with and you've been there, buddy, I know it.
Most teachers will resonate with this.
Either you're in a class where students aren't saying anything.

(28:56):
I mean, they are just in there absolutely quiet.
They're docile and I know a media thing and that sounds great.
It's not when you're trying to create an engaging lesson.
OK, or the opposite is true.
Men, this classroom is off the chain and it's classroom management 101 before anything can
happen in here.
So those are the two polar extremes.

(29:18):
You're looking for that Goldilocks zone in the middle so that you can add a little bit
of the human factor in there.
That engagement, you know, turn this into living history.
I love how you put that.
You know, that's where a teacher is trying to find themselves in that kind of sweet spot.
But the effort that it goes into creating that where kids are engaged to the point that

(29:44):
they're writing that kind of letter, man.
I mean, to me, I think that's sure.
That may be a gift and a curse sort of.
But to me, that's the ultimate kind of engagement where you've moved someone to the point of
argument.
Right.
And as teachers, I mean, as educators and again, my friend, it's exhausting.

(30:05):
We're just going to stand on that.
But that's the kind of work that does get students thinking and moves the needle in
terms of that kind of processing that we really want out of kids.
It's tough to get there.
And you just shared a great poignant story of how it can make you feel when it happens.

(30:27):
But man, that's where growth comes through that kind of rub, I believe.
Yeah, absolutely.
The argument is, you know, there's a reason.
Let's go back.
Read an interesting thing that the human brain actually understands things better when it's
in dialog form.
So think about it this way.

(30:49):
So we can only focus our brain can focus on a singular issue when it's on our use of terms
like flat, right?
Like fact.
Here it is.
Boom.
We can only focus on that for about 27 seconds before our brain starts to bond because our
brain says this is not dynamic.
This is a fact.
I'm either remembered or not.
That is the reason Aristotle and Plato wrote their works in dialog form.

(31:11):
And if you think about this, we all do this.
Yeah, I'll be one more.
How many of us in our heads when we're thinking of an idea or kind of a hard topic that we
want to discuss with somebody, how many of us have that internal argument, right?
Where you're like, oh, this person this.
So I would say this and then they're going to say this.
I'm going to do that.
You literally argue in your head in dialog format.

(31:33):
That's your brain staying active to flesh out those ideas.
So our brains without any teacher in the room naturally do that.
So getting to that argumentation stage, which argumentation is, we are going to say that
people automatically think it's a negative.
It's not right.
We're not talking about like standing up and screaming at each other.
We're talking about think about debate team point, counterpoint, rebuttal.

(31:55):
When you get to that stage, your brain is as active as it's ever going to be.
And so we're learning and that's exactly we want to get kids.
But to do that, you cannot have an argument or analyze if you're not looking at all sides,
digging deeper, go in that extra level.
And that somehow has been transitioned into grooming.
Like, oh, you looked at this side.

(32:18):
Don't talk about that.
It's like, OK, well, then what do you want them to learn?
Yeah, like what's what's the goal here?
And that's that's the issue there.
It's also again, you talked about the sweet spot of a classroom.
That's where you getting the kids to interact like that.
You have to kind of get some things that awaken emotions, you know.

(32:41):
And so when there's the things in the media about like, oh, they're you're teaching this
about like slavery, for example.
You know, you shouldn't talk about how bad it was, like just kind of give the facts.
It's like if I don't talk about how bad it was, then they're not going to engage with
it because you have to have that emotional twinge to feel something.
Right.
I mean, we all love TVs and movies.

(33:01):
Some of the best episodes right now.
You can probably remember TV had you almost choking up or feeling so like excited by what's
going on.
That's why we engage.
So when you take that out, you're taking that other level and it's not it's not feasible
to then have them reach that deeper understanding.
And also, I always tell students we have to kind of feel something, especially in history.

(33:24):
All right.
And I'm sure any ELA teachers, English teachers out there, when you study a work like a book,
right?
You want them to feel the emotion that's in that work because and going back to history,
if we don't feel something now, then why would we be afraid to repeat it?
If you don't feel that emotional level and it's maybe a bad, it's a bad thing like slavery,

(33:48):
the Holocaust, any type of awful thing that's happening in history.
If you don't feel that emotional twinge, then you will not grow up and understand that is
a bad thing.
And then if you see something happening like that out in the world, you won't understand
that red flag, red flag alarm, alarm, alarm, you know, that this is something bad happening
and I need to be aware of that.
And that's just what we're trying to do.
We're trying, you know, I'm not trying.

(34:09):
I want my kids to pass any exam or that they have, but I also want them to be humans on
the me thinking, analyzing deep, emotional understanding humans.
I love that it's that it's sort of slipped into this side of things because in the era
that the sort of the pre dawn era here of AI and our, I mean, let's call it what it is,

(34:37):
man, our initial willingness to lead way too far into AI and where that could potentially
head us.
And here you are talking about not only creating human connections, but as a species, you know,
we're a storytelling species.
That's how we learn.
I'm some of the best keynote, you know, I knew I'd do a little bit of public speaking,

(34:57):
but some of the best keynoters that I see are able to tell their story in a certain
format, right?
That we're very familiar with, whether that's the hero's journey, you know, the three acts
structure, that's how we learn best.
That's how we connect.
But I'm going to tie this back to exhaustion.

(35:19):
If and when you're able to do that for one class and the emotions that come out of that
energy that goes into that, I mean, the back and forth, I mean, even when it's challenging,
it's great.
And then you extrapolate that out times seven times five days a week.
I mean, what are we talking about in this episode?
You know, exhaustion.

(35:39):
And that's even when it goes well, you know, when these things come off the rails and it
just goes crash and burn and how that leaves a teacher feeling, that's a whole nother story.
But even when it's going well, when you're trying to create the kind of engagement, when
you're trying to keep up with a certain pace, you're dealing with a certain number of students,

(36:02):
I mean, the culmination of that is an exhausted teacher who at any moment could say, you know
what, I'm giving the keys to somebody else, man, it's your turn to drive.
And we're trying to keep people in that seat behind the steering wheel.
So we're giving them just this truth, speaking truth to power, as you said earlier, but also

(36:24):
just calling things for what they are.
It's not an easy job.
It leaves us very, very exhausted.
You talked about that internal dialogue, you know, that we're constantly having back and
forth with ourselves, you know, as an educator, but as a human being, man, my internal dialogue
runs constantly, buddy.
So I believe all of that.

(36:45):
That's how we connect.
That we should be teaching how we should be engaging.
But the reality is, man, it's very, very exhausting to do it that way.
It is.
You have these things we've just been talking about these pressures in the outside saying,
oh, you're not doing this or you shouldn't be doing this.
And it's very easy, like you said, give the keys somebody else or for a good teacher.

(37:05):
It's very easy for them to go, you know what worksheet city, baby, I'm doing any of these
deep thinkings.
Here's this worksheet.
And that's one that was the first thing that teachers were attacked on a bit ago.
I was like, oh, they're just giving a worksheet.
So then we're like, OK, we're do project based learning that we do projects.
We dig deep and now they're like, oh, you're grooming them.
It's like, OK, so you want a worksheet or you want me to dig deep?

(37:26):
Why don't you come in and do it?
You know, like and then exhaust, like you said, and then if you get it going well, I
mean, my drive home sometimes I am just about like a prior 40 minute drive home.
I know you leave like the last thing a day.
I'm sitting there, stay at school, usually about like, you know, 45 minutes to an hour
afterwards just getting prepared for the next day.

(37:49):
And I get in the car now, I kind of feel good.
And about 10 minutes in that drive, I feel like cartoon characters been run over by the
steamroller.
They pick them up, they're all flat and like wobbly.
That's me.
I just all my energy goes out and I get home and I'm like, I should do this and this and
this.
And sometimes I can just sit down and stare, you know, and that's drives that exhaustion

(38:09):
that it makes it.
And you're just like, I can't even do anything at home because I'm so tired.
And that's then you start compounding that.
And I think a part of that, so we've kind of talked about the, you know, the demands
and some of the issues here.
So let's take a quick look at our current students.

(38:30):
So the first thing I want to look at here, Ryan, is, you know, I'm going to talk about
it because we've been we've been transitioning and talking about the demands that we talk
about trying to engage our students.
You talked a little bit about AI, so this can kind of fall into that.
But a lot of people outside the educational field may not understand this cell phones,
cell phones in the classroom, right?

(38:52):
Cell phones are a huge part of our life.
We are, you know, we all use them.
I use them.
I always tell my students like, look, I'm just as addicted or just as reliant as you
are.
So I want you to think I'm some Luddite here disconnected from technology.
Like I understand what I'm asking you to do, but we have to do it.
But you know, cell phones in the classroom are kind of a huge distraction.
And it's it's it takes away from all these like it's another level of exhaustion.

(39:14):
OK, another article from Yale magazine from ASCD and it was called The Classroom Without
Cell Phones by Matthew R.K.
And basically they in this they took a they took a freshman class and they just said,
hey, we are completely banning cell phones.
There's freshman class.
What are you saying?
Before they did that was that we talked about classroom management and how that's exhausting.

(39:37):
You know, twenty five, twenty seven, thirty unique personalities in a room, different
levels of maturity, different things they're dealing with.
Right.
And then you add on the distraction of cell phones.
And what was happening, what we're finding in teachers is cell phones are exhausting
a certain level of our classroom management capital that we built up.

(40:01):
Like I come in the classroom knowing like no teacher walks in their classroom saying,
hey, it's going to be a perfect day.
All my kids are going to sit there and smile at me and answer questions.
We all know like, OK, we're going to try to deal with this.
But then we add in that other level of dealing with that distraction as well.
It takes away from that capital and it leaves us on empty very quickly.

(40:23):
What do you think about that?
And that's that's a great point.
It reminds me of I'm currently reading this book called The Anxious Generation, which
is essentially just dealing with the impact of home based childhood on young people.
And but in it, he's got this short story by Kurt Vonnegut.
It's Harrison Bergeron.

(40:44):
If you've ever heard Bergeron, if you've ever read the stories from 1961, it's really
dealing with diversity and equity.
But it's got this really cool piece in it where they're trying to make everyone equal.
So one of the ways they can make intelligent people equal to everyone else is they give

(41:05):
them this earpiece.
And ever so often, you just get hit with the most jarring blaring sounds, car crashes,
whistles, and it's designed to just disrupt your thinking.
So you can't have a critical thought for that long because boom, then in comes the sound.
That's 1961.
The whole idea is attention fragmentation.

(41:27):
So if you take that into 2024 in the classroom, you know, it's the reason why we really can't
get anywhere in terms of critical thinking, problem solving, deep discussions, because
our attention is so fragmented.
So here you are talking about a teacher on one hand from the management standpoint.

(41:48):
Hey, put the phones up.
I'm just trying to deal with that.
Look, I need your attention.
Put the phones away.
Say you get them away.
I mean, there's still the argument that just the presence of the phone, whether that's
the buzzing, the notifications, even if it's in proximity, you know, I've got it in the
cubby there on the wall, but I know it's there.
I can't take my eyes off of it.

(42:10):
I mean, we're dealing with that, which alone is exhausting on top of, you know, the actual
just true impact that these devices are having on our attention fragmentation.
I mean, I think that we're talking about today's current student is probably the biggest crisis
for young people right now.

(42:30):
I really love your point there that I think a lot of the outside world, especially like
parents, you know, and everything when you're talking about cell phones, like behavior that
we are trying to like say, oh, your kid's being bad.
Like your kid is they're doing something wrong.
And that's not what we mean.
A lot of times it's that they're not trying to be bad.

(42:52):
It is that it is that draw like you said, our listeners, you probably get a lot of this
for those who are into it.
Cool.
For those who aren't, I'm sorry.
I'm a huge Lord of the Rings fan.
I'm a giant nerd, right?
It's like the one ring.
It's just drawing them like they see it and they're like, oh, I could touch it if I could
just get it.
And they are, they just it's that distraction, even when a kid's trying to keep it away.

(43:13):
Like you said, if it's in a cubby or pocket on the wall or if it's just the rule, like,
hey, don't have your cell phone out or have to write you up.
You have to make sure that then they're they're sitting there and they're trying to listen
and in their pocket, it's oh, am I getting a call?
Am I getting a text?
What's going on?
Am I missing something?
You know, in my book, The Two Backpacks, Understand Teens What They Carry, I talk about that, that

(43:38):
it's they're not their brains not ready enough to deal with that.
And it's this idea of FOMO, right?
You're missing out.
Like what could I be missing?
And that just it almost drives them crazy.
I actually had my students do and I have a pocket pockets where all the kids have to
put their phones and I had a student stand up next to him, right?

(44:01):
Stand next to my pockets.
And I was like, hey, every time you hear a buzz while I'm talking here, I want you to
put a tick mark on the board.
All right.
So that student was sitting there listening to me and I was explaining something and they
were just standing on the board and the dry erase markers tick, tick, tick.
Eleven minutes, 57 tick marks.

(44:22):
That's the draw.
That's the issue we're dealing with there with cell phones.
And one thing from that article from Matthew Kay, interesting thing is they took those
phones from students, right?
They said you can't have them.
One after the students initially kind of grumbled like I am my phone.
And the biggest problem and I found this in the classroom is it's this idea that parents

(44:44):
get mad when you do that because they I paid a lot for the phone.
We know phones are expensive, but it's also this idea that parents want that instant and
uninterrupted connectivity with their kid.
And it just kind of it's crazy to me.
I talk about this in the book when we're trying to get teens to do this and we're trying not
to add stuff to their invisible second backpack that's weighing them down is that we came

(45:06):
from a time period where we didn't have that connectivity.
If my mom or dad needed me, they had to call the office, the office and had to come get
me and I survived.
Right.
You know, like nothing bad happened to me.
Like I was in class and if they needed me, they called me office and kind of are like
this generation of parents with teenagers now they're sitting there like, well, if I
can't text my kid that I'm not going to be able to pick them up, then how are they going

(45:26):
to know?
It's like the same way you knew.
Like you don't have to text him in class or I have so many I've sat and I've talked with
students, you know, just kind of trying to be that connective human and when I see they're
having a hard time, like, hey, what's going on?
I bet kids be like, you know, I was just here and I forgot to take out trash this morning
and my parent just kind of text and laid into me and like we're adding that, like we all

(45:51):
the stuff we've talked about this demand, this exhaustion, I'm trying to get them to
understand this concept and they're in their own head because at 11 a.m. they got a text
like, why didn't you take out the trash?
You know, those are the type of connective things or cell phones when the issues is,
you know, bullying or just that natural kind of back and forth teens tend to have with

(46:13):
each other.
When I was a kid, it happened in those common areas, right?
Like hallway, locker room, lunch room.
That's when you can have that.
Now you can be I mean, if somebody's picking on you, they can do it 24 hours a day, seven
days a week.
You could be sitting in class, phone buzzes, you kind of try to slyly pull out your phone
and check it while teachers talking and it could be a message, a comment on one of your

(46:38):
Instagram photos where that kid who's picking on you says you look like a giant pig.
You know, so now you're getting like you're sitting in class, you're in history class,
you're in a safe spot.
We're only talking about history.
Nobody else is talking and you just got bullied, you know, and that's that kind of thing.
And now we're trying to deal with that.
And then this article, it's kind of a super interesting thing.
I think this is one of the issues with cell phones and adding to that exhaustion is a

(47:00):
quote from it said the kids knew that when a problem arose with their work, when things
actually got hard, it was easier to infinitely scroll than it was to productively struggle.
And that to me is just kind of the whole thing is that they are just they're an escape.
I mean, I use it to escape when I just need to chill.

(47:23):
I get on TikTok or I get on Twitter X, whatever you want to call it.
And I just kind of look at things and take that in.
And we're losing that idea that like struggle is productive.
You know, it's almost like productive conflict, like sometimes having a conflict with somebody
is not a bad thing, right?
And also struggling is not a bad thing.
It's okay to have a struggle where you got to sit there and you got to be like, I don't

(47:45):
know this answer.
I have to work to find it.
I have to ask for ask for help.
Well, with cell phones in the classroom, you're managing those things.
Your teacher, you're walking around, you're working on this, you're helping this kid,
you're helping this kid.
They're easy to there a behavioral issue that is not outside.

(48:06):
That is not something that's observable, right?
Like the kid can sit there and be quiet.
If I'm looking around the room, kid can be sneaking, kind of having their cell phone
down there, look like they're working like staring down at the computer.
I can even do the whole fake pencil hold thing and have it like right under their desk.
I'm actually doing it right now as we're talking, you know, like looking at it like that.
And they can be struggling and you don't even know they're struggling.

(48:29):
You have no idea there's a problem.
That is a major issue with this problem, like that you don't know they're having a problem
and they're not able to ask for help because they're just like, if I ask for help, then
I got to keep struggling.
I'll just get on Instagram and then maybe later I'll ask a friend how to do it.
That's a great point, man, about self-advocacy that I think we have noticed.

(48:53):
For those that don't know me personally, I have a 10-year-old son who has dyslexia.
He has inattentive ADHD.
So one of our big pillars for him is self-advocacy.
He struggles with reading, man.
I mean, just literally putting letters together consistently and getting him to advocate,
hey, I could use help with this piece right here.

(49:16):
That's one of his big pillars.
But I think we're seeing this by and large with children, with young people and their
inability, either their inability or their unwillingness.
But I really think it's their inability to do that.
My inability to self-advocate, A, I don't even know what to ask for, B, I really don't
want to be vulnerable out here and just put myself on blast.

(49:39):
I mean, I think that self-advocacy piece is huge.
I did want to push you a little bit.
And I think this is going to be kind of the nature between the two of us here.
But as we're talking about cell phones, we're talking about Gen Z, we're talking about Gen
Alpha, my son's generation.
But then we're also talking about educators like us, where we're either millennials or

(50:02):
Generation X, like my old self, and things we're used to, accustomed to, how we grew
up, what we see as normal, what we see as strange.
I really think we have to, at times, take a step back and just remember the generation
that we're dealing with, what they were born into, what they're accustomed to, what is

(50:26):
their normal, that's our now new normal, and really appreciating that, man.
And I say this to advocate, not just for young people, but maybe just the generational cohort
in general.
We have to stop blaming students that were born into this matrix.

(50:48):
Okay?
Because, man, it doesn't take, it's not hard for me to remember a time as recent as 2013
when BYOT was the big thing.
Bring your own technology.
We're encouraging students to bring this into the classroom.
Okay, that's 2013.
Well, bro, let's take it back to like the 1960s, 1950s, when doctors are smoking in

(51:08):
labor rooms.
I mean, and I loved your point earlier about history.
It doesn't repeat itself.
It rhymes.
We're seeing that kind of thing play out here.
So we stand at this very interesting juncture, man, as educators in terms of these generational
cohorts that are all converging at the same time.

(51:30):
And you've got these generations that did not have any of this prior to their 30s.
Now, dealing with a young generation that was born and instilled with not only these
devices in their hand, but this kind of thinking and processing hardwired in their brain.

(51:50):
And you know the word that comes to mind, bro, exhaustion.
So I'm now an educator trying to deal with all of that.
And now you got this guy on the podcast telling you, hey, man, well, don't blame the kid.
I mean, you've essentially got to blame the system, the matrix that they were born into.
And that's half the battle, too.
So we want to extend that olive branch to the kid while at the same time challenging

(52:13):
them, pushing them, empowering them through this stuff that we know is significant.
Absolutely.
And that's, you know, that's what the two backpacks the book is about.
Like I literally wrote that I did all the research on all the topics and wrote that
because I, you know, 15 years in education, I was hearing the same things in teachers,

(52:36):
teachers lounges that was said about me.
Oh, these kids, all they care about is their friends.
They're lazy.
They don't work.
They don't have a work ethic.
This was the same stuff that was being said about me when I was in high school and oh,
one, oh, two, oh, three, oh, four.
And then probably the same stuff in the 80s and 70s.
We've just changed the thing.
Now it's phones before it was the rock music, the comic books.
Yeah.

(52:56):
Oh my gosh, they're watching MTV.
That's all they care about.
I got TV and you're like, OK, so we're super educated, intelligent people and we're using
the same formula, just input X as the new thing.
So I wrote that and that's what the second backpack is.
It's like what you want is their brain development.
The frontal lobe is not developed yet.
So they have this issue with, you know, that's why they're more impulsive.

(53:19):
That's why they do things.
There's an invincibility idea to where, you know, especially teenage boys, they're like,
oh, like, yeah, human legs break, but my leg won't break.
There's actually a fascinating study done that I talk about one of the chapters where
they gave out these scenarios.
They were like, if this person drove 80 mile, 89 miles an hour weaving in and out of traffic

(53:41):
while it was raining, what do you think would happen?
And the teenagers were like, oh, they might wreck.
They might hurt somebody.
Yes.
Good answer.
And then they said, what do you do that?
And they're like, yeah, but I want to wreck.
That's their thought process.
It's like, I'm invincible.
Right.
And, you know, in the second backpack, kind of transition here to some of the other, the
modern student, you know, you have social issues, emotions, peers, you know, like the

(54:06):
importance of peers, you know, parents feel that their kids are pulling away from them
to become they're more interested in their friends.
Why is that?
That's a biological and evolutionary factor because the human species would not keep going
if we didn't try to leave our tribe, our family.
Right.

(54:27):
We're supposed to frustrate our parents to the point of get out of the nest.
Like, I can no longer do it.
Yeah, we're supposed to push them.
So, you know, we challenge our ideas.
That's how you develop your own ideas, your own values and things, you know, and some
of these other, you know, those are the things that are in their second backpack.
Social, like I said, social issues that are there, you know, there's now, you know, social

(54:48):
media and phones have made this idea of how you're supposed to look if you're a female,
you know, what's manly, what's not the emotions they're dealing with, like those struggles
that they're feeling and those, you know, there's that rage and that anger sometimes
comes up in there.
And it just it's a way of testing those boundaries.
And they're all doing that.

(55:08):
And like you said, we're now kind of creating this culture for them that, like, like you
said, we invited phones in.
You know, we literally said, like you said, 2013, come on in, bring in a device that'll
help education.
And then social media kind of took off and we were like, oh, no, like instead of just
using their phone for research, now they can be on Snapchat, taking a picture of their

(55:31):
ceiling and their forehead to keep their streak going, you know, instead of paying attention.
It really was kind of a bait and switch, man.
Like we they had the devices and they've got these right, these powerful supercomputers
in their pockets.
We use them now and then almost overnight, you know, certainly with Facebook, man, when
Instagram got big, you know, I was still a still an ELA teacher in Metro Nashville at
that time.

(55:51):
I mean, it just exploded.
And yeah, it was a true bait and switch on us where it was one thing and almost overnight
became another thing that we just could not stop a true juggernaut.
Yeah.
And I think it's a kind of a it was a way to try to modernize and be like, look, education
is trying to do this.
And actually what happened was it was more of a hey, by the way, they're they're going

(56:15):
to we didn't have the foresight to see like how could this go?
We looked at phones as they were in the moment.
And like you said, supercomputer, great for research.
You know, that way a kid can actually look at stuff so we don't have to have old antiquated
encyclopedias.
And we didn't have the foresight to go, where's this going?
And where it was going was literally nine thousand different types of distractions.

(56:37):
I can't tell you how many kids like right now we're both on laptops doing this.
And so if you imagine, you know, our listeners kind of pitch yourself in front of the classroom,
you know, you got the kids have their computers open, you're expecting them to be typing in
some type of, you know, an assignment you've made.
And so you're looking at the front of their computers and kids have their cell phones

(56:57):
leaned gently, you know, nicely right above their keyboard up against their screen and
on it is Netflix.
Right.
And so they're staring at you.
They're looking at you and you think, man, I got good engagement.
They're glanced down every little while.
They got subtitles up and they're just watching their favorite episode of binge.
Man, they're getting through like two episodes of class and you're like, oh, we didn't expect

(57:20):
that.
You know, and I think that's one of the things that like dealing with those modern students
is now we're not dealing with two separate entities.
I think in the past, before you had a lot of these new modern things that our kids are
dealing with that again, sometimes we've invited in, we're not dealing with home.

(57:43):
And then school and then after school, that was like the three segments we had.
And so as teachers, right, we had that one segment was ours.
We had to deal with the little behaviors in school.
You know, maybe kids getting picked on bully, you nip that in the bud.
But then your kind of teacher class, all of those have now merged.
Like I said, the parents texted them, you know, they're they might be getting bullied

(58:04):
or, you know, let's go like, you know, bullying is hot topic.
It's scary.
It's sad.
You know, it's got a positive part for the teen.
Maybe not getting bullied.
Maybe that girl or that guy you've been like in send you a text or an Instagram message
or Snapchat message that is like super positive.
Right.
Like you're like, oh my gosh, I got him.
I got her.
Like we're doing that.

(58:25):
I'll tell you, like to a young teenager who's trying to go out there and expand themselves,
having the attention of the opposite sex or someone they're interested in, that will outweigh
anything we're doing in class because the way their brains build.
Like, you know, we're talking about and talk about emotions and teenagers and their development.

(58:48):
We're we act like right now we kind of again don't have that foresight or that pulling
back looking at it.
We act like what we're doing now is the way things are supposed to be.
And we're ignoring millions years of evolution for a teenager.
The attraction of the opposite sex or whoever you're interested in is exactly what your

(59:12):
brain's seeking because it's trying to go out there and like get that relationship to
get that moving on.
And so we just kind of ignore them and say, hey, you should be paying attention.
I'm talking about the great Gatsby.
Yeah.
And like to them, it's like their brains like, I mean, I'm trying to like, you know, learn
how to talk to somebody I'm interested in and maybe get, you know, a girlfriend, a boyfriend.

(59:34):
And so like we're fighting against that.
And all these new modern things have just exacerbated that more.
You know, I mean, you think about when when early and no freshman year high school, pass
notes, passing notes was would get you in trouble.
Now you don't have to worry about getting caught passing notes.
You just pull your phone and send a quick text, you know, and it's kind of over.
Like that's the end.

(59:54):
There's no way to catch that.
So I think those issues are one of the things that we're we're trying to we have to change
a little bit because it is exhausting because we're professionals and we're trying to do
a job.
And then but we are fighting this tidal wave of development, emotions that has now been
turned into a tsunami because of the connectivity of social media and phones in the classroom.

(01:00:21):
And it's a losing battle.
But, you know, it complicating this whole scenario.
And I'm going to take it back to something you said not too long ago earlier in this
episode where, you know, when you're addressing your students and it was almost a throwaway
line, man, but you said it and I didn't ping it at the time and I'm going to bring it up
now.
I appreciate your vulnerability because it's so true.

(01:00:41):
I mean, where you're literally telling the kids like I'm addicted to.
And we're talking about the technology, the phone.
So I think the missing piece here that we haven't just fully addressed yet is everything
you just said.
Absolutely true.
Any teacher that's in a classroom today is going to stand on that and say yes to all

(01:01:02):
that.
You know, my push would be the flip side of that coin is the adults are not immune to
this magnetic pull.
So on top of it, everything you just explained for a young person, man, I believe by and
large this has encompassed all people.
Now it's honest.
I mean, it's a symbiotic relationship that we have with these kind of devices.

(01:01:26):
So the adults are bringing this baggage into the building too.
Now our frontal lobes are much more developed.
We've got better executive functioning.
We're professionals.
We're getting paid.
We have policies and procedures.
We do better at it, but we're still in the grip of that pull.

(01:01:46):
So back to the word what for this episode, exhaustion.
I mean, we're dealing with that overlay of tech and its magnetic pull on us as well at
the same time trying to manage young people who are innately pulled by it.
You know, we have the secondary exposure to it, but it's still on us in us and we're dealing

(01:02:09):
with that too.
So I mean, the plight of a current educator that has their own just systematic oppression
by social media and tech and doom scrolling, all of that man is impacting the adults as
much as it is the kids.
Yet the adults are charged with keeping themselves together, remaining professional, limiting

(01:02:33):
that absolutely as much as possible.
You know, I use my wife as an example.
I mean, she comes home some days after work and not only is she just exhausted, you know,
just flat out tired, but really all she wants to do is just kind of binge and look at stuff
because she hasn't had access to that stuff, you know, all day.
So it's this pull to it.

(01:02:54):
What have I missed out on kind of thing?
And some of it can just be, man, I need this to laugh.
I just need to offload all of this exhaustion.
But some of this is also like, man, I got to catch up on things.
You know, what's currently been happening that everybody else is doom scrolling through,
but I haven't had the ability to do that.
So just teachers having to go through that same kind of mental torment and pull that

(01:03:16):
our students are dealing with.
Man, I just wanted to stand on that because we do share that with young people.
And again, I go back to this convergence of our generations right now and how one Gen
X millennials now reading Gen Z, Gen Alpha through this threshold of what do we do about

(01:03:39):
this technology situation?
And at the end of the day, it just leaves you absolutely exhausted.
It really does.
And you know, I'll be vulnerable again with that, you know, just kind of put that in perspective.
I know everybody listening has probably heard that, but I just want to, you know, kind of
hammer it home.
My wife and I have, you know, an argument, right?
You know, it's just something day to day.

(01:04:01):
You can input anything and married folk out there, you know what I'm talking about.
Have an argument.
It's kind of one of those arguments.
It's like it takes up a little chunk your evening.
It's kind of you're trying to do your evening stuff, clean up dinner, get lunches ready
for your kids, do all this.
And you're kind of ping ponging back and forth this argument.
And then you kind of have that weird we're going to bed, but not our normal like happy,

(01:04:24):
you know, like let's go to bed.
It's kind of more like not talking screaming or anything, or just kind of that weird tension.
So, you know, you go to work and you're like, all right, I'm going to do my job.
And you're sitting there and you're walking by your desk and you see your phone lights
up and you, you know, kids are working.
So you pick it up and then it's kind of the continuation of the argument.
Maybe it's like I wish you would have X, right?

(01:04:47):
How hard is it for me as a grown man who's a professional to read that, to feel those
emotions?
And then as I'm processing that, like for me, I always get like my face gets like really
hot feeling like I'm like, you know, like, oh yeah, it's like, oh gosh, like I don't
like this.
Yeah.
Like alarms are going off, anxiety is kicking in.
And then a student goes, Dr. Lauer, could I, you know, they asked me a question and I

(01:05:12):
have to like shove that down to do my job.
Like I got to turn on like actor mode face.
Like, yeah, let me help you.
But in the back of my head, it is just there's a screaming voice.
And like you said, I'm a grown man, a bunch of education, I've trained, I know how to
do this and I have to do that.
And it's a struggle to kind of lock in on that suited and be like myself.

(01:05:33):
We're asking 14, 15, 16 year olds to do that who don't have that.
And I think a way to kind of limit that and this to a way to limit some of these problems,
limit our exhaustion is have, like you said, a little bit of empathy for them, a little
bit of understanding for our teens is like really recognize that when how we feel that

(01:05:56):
and apply it to them like, OK, I don't know if Johnny picked up his phone, but maybe that's
the reason he's sitting there quietly when he's usually really, really talkative.
Maybe something happened.
And instead of getting upset or thinking he's lazy, let's look at through the lens of what's
he dealing with.
And that's what I talk about in the in the two backpacks of book is that we should be

(01:06:18):
looking at through that.
I'm not talking about giving them.
There's no it's not free passes.
Right.
There's still work to be done.
But instead of just saying, oh, he's lazy.
Yeah.
Making those assumptions.
Right.
He's done care.
It's let's start filtering it through those other things that they may be feeling or dealing
with.
And then we can really reach them and kill it like nip that in the bud instead of just

(01:06:41):
kind of the ongoing problem.
And I think this is a really good transition into our next area of how are educators adding
more to our own exhaustion, adding more to our own second backpack or since we're professionals,
we'll call it our second briefcase.
Right.
That invisible thing weighing us down and making work maybe even harder for that for

(01:07:07):
us.
Yeah.
And you know, I know we've got plans to do an episode on the war at home.
So I want to be sure to kind of separate church and state here a little bit because immediately
my mind wants to jump to some things I know we're going to address in that in that episode.

(01:07:30):
And it's hard for me not to get away from what we just talked about to the impact of
this kind of tech addiction on anyone, but specifically here adults and how that when
we carry it into the classroom impacts our level of performance, our general mood and
attitude, you know, all of those things.

(01:07:51):
But I'll step away from that for a second.
I mean, we've just really hammered that nail on cell phones and technology and really think
more about that teacher who I don't care if you're in year 19, like my wife who still
is passionate as she's ever been or you're that first or second year teacher that's just
fired up about this new career path, inspiring young people, no matter which version you

(01:08:16):
are of teacher on that spectrum.
You know, you're in here trying to do good work.
You're trying to impact kids to make a difference, to create belonging, field capabilities.
And when you wear that, when you carry that and that's your, man, that's your modus operandi.
You've internalized it now.

(01:08:37):
That's who you are.
And then you're in the classroom and whether it's day one, day eight, day 80, and you just
get smacked with this overwhelming sense of, I just don't know if I can do it.
I mean, not only sustain it, but just literally do it.
That to me, I mean, I think fills that second backpack pretty quickly because it's more

(01:09:02):
than just the job now.
You've internalized it, right?
It's become your purpose.
I mean, you wear it proudly.
I think the best teachers even do that.
But man, when you put all that on you and now it's on you in terms of who you are as
a human being, I mean, I think when we add that weight to the backpack, it's untenable,

(01:09:25):
man.
And it leaves a lot of teachers just feeling absolutely exhausted.
It does.
And they are exhausted.
And kind of with that talking about like, what are we adding?
I think one thing we should look at here is I have some another article from EL Magazine,
Lisa Westman and ASCD just came out September 1st.

(01:09:45):
It says reframing new teachers' common misperceptions, right?
And I think she's talking about new teachers, but I think for veterans, it would be really
good to kind of think about this and focusing through this idea of exhaustion, right?
Like we're exhausted.
Some of these things might help us if we change our idea of what we're supposed to do.

(01:10:05):
It might take that because a lot of times we've been talking a lot about like the actual
physical, exhausted moments like, oh, dealing with behaviors, dealing with cell phones,
dealing with like the perception of that we're grooming and everything in our classroom.
Sometimes our own ideas can exhaust us, these non-tangible things.

(01:10:25):
So one thing she said, you know, first, if anybody listen out there, not a teacher, and
you're kind of like, are you really that exhausted?
My job's hard too.
I don't doubt your job's hard, but some things we're talking about new teacher attrition
rates, right?
For new teachers, one to two years experience, 28 to 35% leave, right?
25 to 29 for 37 years experience.

(01:10:48):
So those are still pretty high for people leaving.
That's what we're trying to stop.
So some of these issues here, I'm gonna go through them just real quick and kind of then
we can just talk about each one or like anyone you want to pick on.
So you know, first one, like my principal expects me to be perfect, right?
The principals being evaluators of us, it really makes them hard to talk about our struggles.

(01:11:09):
You know, you're literally, you got to go in and sit down with this person and say,
I am struggling with classroom management and then know at some point they're going
to be sitting in your room evaluating you over classroom management.
That's a difficult bridge to cross.
You know, like that's being open with somebody.
You know, that's like, you know, telling your doctor, you know, and they ask you or your
dentist like when's the last time you flossed?

(01:11:30):
You did it.
You know, like you have to literally be very vulnerable and say, I don't floss, man.
So you're gonna find some cavities.
I'm sorry.
Like it's like that same thing.
Classroom management depends on the class is another misconception, she says.
Oh, this is a bad class.
So my management will be worse and more.
It's like, no, if you have a consistent style, she says in our article, it is a it's an art

(01:11:50):
form and you got to practice it.
And if you kind of give up because you think you have a hard class, you're going to make
yourself more exhausted or feel like a failure.
And you know, in this article, she basically said that you can't give up just because it's
difficult class.
It's emotionally exhausted to take student.
You can't take their behavior personally like, oh, this class doesn't like me.

(01:12:11):
That's exhausting.
I think it's just you know, that's that causes so much exhaustion.
Another misconception.
Parents are my partners.
And I'll probably come back to this one because I think that's an important thing to talk
about.
Not saying they're they're not partners, but coming into it thinking that like we're going
to tag team this.

(01:12:31):
We're going to we're we're doing this together.
I think we have to understand there's a little another element for parents there and many
veteran teachers may know this, but I'm hoping, you know, hopefully that there are some new
teachers listening to this, of course.
And hopefully this will guide you and kind of stomp out that anybody listening.
If you know a new teacher, let them know about the podcast, Education Warfare, because this

(01:12:53):
part would be really helpful.
Them.
I hope.
And number four that she talks about, you must grade everything you assign.
I see that all the time.
I see that exhaust be like some teachers like, oh, I just got great this and I got great
this and got to great this.
And that'll be an interesting one to kind of look at.
So are there any of those that you really want to kind of hit on first, Ryan?

(01:13:13):
Man, certainly all of them.
But I'll start at the top.
You know, my my principal expects me to be perfect.
So former executive lead principal where I was charged with leading a K through 12 campus,
but I'm specifically based out of the high school.
So that's my bread and butter system principal at the high school level, principal at the
high school level.
And yeah, I just think that's absolutely true.

(01:13:35):
You're going to ask a teacher to be vulnerable and share with you what they're lacking while
also expecting them to accept that you will be their judge and you'll spend that time
in their classroom being hopefully objective and rating them as you see where they are,

(01:14:00):
but where you think they can be.
And I think that just scares people.
It just does.
I mean, I want to be open with you, but at the same time, no, you're going to be the
one evaluating me and giving me these level of effectiveness scores that are going to
impact.
You know, teachers are so concerned about that L.O.E.
Man, that level of effectiveness score.

(01:14:20):
You know, just quick anecdote.
When I was training to be a assistant principal, I wasn't yet an assistant principal as a dean
of students.
This is Maplewood High School, Metro Nashville, probably 2013.
And I was not an AP yet, so I'm not evaluating teachers that were in my in Metro Nashville.

(01:14:43):
We had they were called academies.
So I was in charge of my own academy that had its own set of students, its own teachers
that taught those students.
But I'm still a dean of students, so I'm not evaluating those teachers yet.
We had actually pulled in a person retired on a hundred and twenty day contract.
They were doing all of those evaluations.

(01:15:04):
Man, that year was one of the most impactful years for me as an administrator because I
was essentially serving as the de facto AP.
I'm just not the one doing the evaluations, but it allowed me to be their ally.
Man, I'm in here to help you build capacity for student discipline.

(01:15:26):
I'm here to help you think about big, broad PBLs, hooks, industry partners, all of that
kind of stuff.
And I took that pain point of you're also my evaluator out of it.
Man, I think we made so many strides that year.
The relationships I built, the capacity for all of us that grew out of that was truly

(01:15:48):
magical, man.
And you can't always get to that.
You can't get to do that.
So I don't think that we can fault teachers for feeling like it's hard for me to be vulnerable
when you're also going to be evaluating me.
Man, that's just a pain point that I can understand how teachers feel.
And as a principal, I tried to do my best empathizing with those teachers.

(01:16:14):
And any time that we went through an evaluation process and then we're in the post conference,
it was always leaving them with something tangible that they could hang their hat on
that they did well.
So getting that sense of empowerment from their administrator on, hey, I saw this, acknowledged
it rockstar status on this side of the coin.

(01:16:38):
I see it's lacking here.
However, we're going to put this little mini plan in place for you to start tackling those
issues and then working together as a team to do that.
That's best case scenario where that teacher walks out feeling not only supported, but
also that they have a partner, thought partner, physical partner in terms of practice in there

(01:17:01):
helping you depending on what kind of principle you have and their hands on involvement.
That's best case scenario.
A teacher walks out of that office feeling that way, like they have a true champion in
their corner trying to help them.
I wish that was the case.
But when there is this true disconnect, if you're dealing with the elder part of Gen

(01:17:22):
X who's now working with a 22 year old teacher, I mean, the realities of that kind of friction
are what they are.
So it's a poignant point that I think teachers make and there's a lot of truth in it.
Absolutely.
And you know, I think having that, I think a good part of it is, you know, I think as
teachers to lessen that exhaustion, I think we all need to know if you could have that

(01:17:46):
person like you were able to play that role, that's awesome.
But also if you don't have that, it's just you have administrators.
As she says in the article, being vulnerable is always acceptable.
It indicates that you are reflective, determined and willing to seek solutions.
And that's what leads to growth.
So I think that if I think it's a two sided, two sides of coin there, I think if teachers

(01:18:08):
understand that, if they feel that like it's OK to be vulnerable, it is me coming to them
saying I want to be better.
Right.
So I may need your help right now.
And also, if principals understand that, that this is outside of that observational moment,
you know, like this is this is leading to get a better observation, to get that better
classroom and sort of that open.
But I feel like principals, especially any principals listening, you know, say that,

(01:18:35):
you know, your first meeting of the year and many, many, many, many principals do a great
job of this.
Right.
But that first meeting of the year, so hey, come to me and know that if you're struggling
something in the classroom, that is in that moment.
And I will help you because I know that you want to be as amazing as your job as possible.
And it almost seems like silly, like, well, yeah, but sometimes things like that have

(01:18:57):
to be said because we all carry those fears with us.
I'll challenge you there.
All right.
Because I think the bulk, the lion's share of this conversation has been even if it's
been unsaid, has been about the exhaustion of teachers.
All right.
Let's let's put that spotlight on administrators, on principals for a minute and go back to
what you just said.
You know, principal makes that opening statement.

(01:19:20):
Bring your vulnerabilities to me.
Bring these challenges to me.
And immediately, I mean, my mind goes to scale.
Does that scale?
All right.
I'm going to go to like a school the size of my wife's school.
Right.
She was a very large school, man.
Almost three thousand kids.
Now you've got the executive principal who's got then APs under her and these APs should

(01:19:41):
be bona fide leaders in their own right.
I mean, they should be striving towards being a principal.
I was always that kind of thinker.
You know, if you're an AP, you really should be striving at some point to take that next
step.
I get it.
There are lifelong assistant principals.
But the idea here for me is if I make that statement as a principal and what if every

(01:20:02):
teacher took me at my word and brought those to me?
I mean, there's a breakdown in your system immediately.
It's going to be almost impossible, man.
For me.
So I just think we have to be careful in terms of the sentiments that we have.
But then how we because, you know, that's a slippery slope.
And once I put that statement out there and people start to act on it, but I can't in

(01:20:28):
turn do what I said I was.
I mean, man, we've lost them pretty quickly.
So I think it is systems thinking because you're still right, man.
Like that is the sentiment that should be the feeling.
But what's the system we put in place so that because we're going beyond exhaustion here,
bro, it's back to untenable.
I mean, as an administrator, and I was certainly guilty of being maybe too hands on.

(01:20:52):
I wanted to be in the classroom.
I wanted to be your partner in this kind of relationship with kids.
I want to help as much as I can.
But I also had the beauty of working at a small school.
I mean, I was the principal of a school with 400 kids in it.
Imagine being that principal with 3000 students in there.
And all I'm really trying to do at this point is delegate because it's going to be hard

(01:21:13):
for me to connect with 125 teachers that are bringing me all of these kind of issues that,
my friend, is beyond exhausting.
I think a big part of that, too, is no teachers.
No, you don't have to be perfect.
Being perfect is exhausting.
Be you.
You're good at what you do.
That's why you're here.
You know, stop worrying about how you'll be looked at or if you'll be perfect, because

(01:21:38):
we all care, you know, we all want to be perfect.
We all work hard at that.
So working hard at being perfect is the as close as we can get, you know, and doing that.
So I think that's an important thing to understand, too.
And again, yeah, you don't want to be untenable for principals because you'll lose people.
You want to be untenable for teachers.
Kind of shifting real quick to the classroom management one.

(01:22:00):
You know, I talked a little bit about teachers taking it personally.
You know, it is exhausting if you take it personally.
I feel like, oh, it's me.
That's the reason this class is bad.
Or that's the reason this class has some issues where, you know, again, going back to understanding
the modern student, it's not like it's probably something in their second backpack.

(01:22:20):
It's probably something else in the outside world.
It's probably something that they're brought with them.
So if we can, again, we were talking about earlier, if we can try to figure that out,
not take it personally, because taking things personally is exhausting.
So understand it's it's really not you.
If they're taking it out on you possibly and staying calm and working with that, I think

(01:22:43):
that really helps limit the exhaustion.
Know that you're good at what you do for your classroom management consistency.
Make sure that you do the same things.
The class is more difficult.
You hunker down on those same things.
And if a student is difficult, take that time to kind of say, what are they dealing with?
Why could this be happening?
And that takes so much exhaustion off of you that it's what can I do better?

(01:23:06):
What am I doing wrong?
It's not you.
Right.
You're if you're consistent, you're doing the right things.
If it worked in first period and it's struggling in second period, then it really isn't you.
Right.
It's a specific thing those students are dealing with.
Now, also an exhausting thing that they were talking about in this is that understanding

(01:23:27):
for new teachers.
But I think it's good for a veteran teachers here also.
Parents are my partners.
And when I say that, I'm not saying let's not work with parents or have like a skeptic
view on parents.
It's that you have to understand parents lack of objectivity about their kids.
Right.
Some may think their kids perfect.
Right.
Or they can do no wrong.

(01:23:47):
Or when you say they're doing something wrong, they will then turn it back on you.
And that's again, going back to that consistency.
Like no, this works.
So a couple ways to deal with that is understand where they're coming from first.
Again, if you think it's an attack on you when they're kind of just advocate for their
kid, I mean, that's their baby.
If you've got a kid, you know how you feel about your kid.
Right.
And listen, most parents just want to be heard.

(01:24:11):
You know, they may say something crazy like, oh, well, you know, are you assigning Jimmy
hasn't turned in any homework because you're assigning too much homework?
No.
In your core, you don't say anything right there.
Know in your core that if it's working for other kids, then you're not assigning too
much.
You know that that it's not you.
It's it's something specific here.
So listen to them.

(01:24:31):
Be defensive of that, because that now brings another level that you have to deal with,
which again, raises your exhaustion.
If you're if you're dealing with all the things we've talked about already and now you're
kind of sparring with a parent, how can you not be exhausted?
So let listen to them.
And then once you've kind of listened to them, find a common solution once.

(01:24:51):
I mean, if you say I hear you and I want your child to be super successful in this class,
that's why this whole conversation is happening, then you will literally feel and hear their
entire tone, mood change.
And then you can come to a common solution.
You know, in classroom management, I said, be consistent, be almost you hate to use the

(01:25:14):
word because teaching is all about flexibility.
But with classroom management, be rigid.
Here's not a time to be rigid.
Right.
Here's a time to say, OK, how can I get through this with this particular case?
And once you get that, you know, and I understand this, I'm going to say this to you because
I've heard a lot of this.

(01:25:35):
Have some.
I know we all respect ourselves, but have some understanding that you know you're doing
a good job.
So if a parent does get a little ugly, I mean, it is OK.
And I'm saying this right now.
It is OK to say, you know what?
I'm going to end this conversation because it's going in a bad way.
And I would love to keep it up with you, but I I'm not going to be talked like this when

(01:25:59):
I'm trying to work.
You know, and then, of course, immediately go to an administrator and let them kind of
know that situation because you don't ever want them to be blindsided because now you're
dealing with the parent and an administrator who got blindsided.
Just let them know what happened.
And then you can kind of then the administrator will have your back on that.
And then you can work through that.
And you can even send an email later and say, hey, I want to work with your kid.

(01:26:21):
I want to work with you.
But don't don't let yourself get beat up on that.
Also, of course, you know, a thing that was mentioned in the article that just will raise
it.
Don't you know, and veteran teachers know this.
I'm just saying it for any new teachers or some veteran teacher me to hear that conversation
should never go to the students.
Don't ever let the student know that anything like that happened because that's just multiplying

(01:26:45):
your problem.
And we can work through that.
So understand that parents are there to work with you, but they are going to have a little
bit of a lack of objectivity.
So when you talk to them, just kind of expect that.
But also, I think it's super important if you are having an issue with the kid instead
of dealing with the exhaustion of dealing with that every day.
I think sometimes a good parent contact that can nip it in the bud.

(01:27:05):
Yeah.
And I was I was going to interject there too, man.
My counsel as an administrator was always two words when dealing with parents early
and often getting on that conversation early.
Absolutely.
And if it needs to be, then do it often until you're recalibrated.

(01:27:27):
But think about this from the parent perspective, because you're right, man.
They're not going to be objective.
This is their child, their baby.
So teachers have to put forth that empathy when dealing with a parent.
But if you contact them early enough, now you're framing the conversation.

(01:27:49):
So you are essentially taking control of that situation.
You're getting the first word in.
You have the ability to put your best foot forward.
Instead of playing defense, you're on your heels trying to respond or react to whatever
situation they're that they're putting in front of you that may or may not be the truth.

(01:28:10):
So because, again, those of us that have dealt with young people for long enough know that
kids don't always tell the truth.
So when we're dealing with a parent, may contact them early and often.
But I cannot speak out of both sides of my mouth.
That too is exhausting.
I mean, you're asking teachers to be proactive, to get in front of things and to do that with

(01:28:32):
absolutely as many students and their parents as it takes.
It's a process.
It's effective.
It's also exhausting.
That's just part of it, which I love where we're going with this particular trajectory
here.
We're going to get into the war at home, the war within and giving you those practical

(01:28:53):
pieces, those strategic and tactical components to help yourself through this kind of exhaustion.
Because communicating with parents when you're going to do it, my friend, do it early, do
it often.
It's the best way to build that bond with the parent and improve a situation in the
classroom.
Absolutely.
I completely agree there.

(01:29:13):
Ryan, this was awesome.
I really enjoyed it.
I really hope everybody out there, I hope it helped.
I just hope it took a little these things you may have been feeling inside and again,
not knowing to talk about the issues with or who to go to.
Or am I just feeling this?
Am I just feeling exhausted?
I hope that that kind of opened up and let you know it's okay.

(01:29:34):
We are feeling that.
And I'm so thankful you all have been here.
The war at work with exhaustion is going to rage on.
Nothing we could say is going to fix that exactly.
But we can all start to talk about it and open up about it.
We can cut down on it and start to take steps to make our lives less stressful.

(01:29:55):
So we would love to hear from all of our listeners out there.
Hear your thoughts, your strategies, any comments you may have about this topic or episode.
You can reach us at educationalwarfare.pod at gmail.com.
We also are on all the socials.
We're on X, Instagram, Facebook.
The page is there so you can reach out.
But email us on that.

(01:30:15):
So to hear from you, we want to involve you guys.
We want you, our listeners, educators out there, professionals out there, leaders out
there.
We want you to be a part of this.
So what we're going to do is next Tuesday when this drops, or next Tuesday, we're going
to have a Mailbag episode.
So we have this one, the war at work, and then email us.

(01:30:38):
Let us know what your thoughts and strategies were.
Take all that and we're just going to talk about you guys, your experiences for next
Tuesday.
And then after that, we'll have our next episode covering this topic of exhaustion.
It'll be the war at home.
And we can keep going and take this to like where, how is exhaustion now going into our
home?

(01:30:59):
What are the things that this is causing at home?
What are some things at home that are causing that?
So Ryan, thank you so much for everything too.
I can't wait to talk to you again about the war at home.
And I appreciate it.
I appreciate all of you listeners and everything as well.
Doc, you did a great job facilitating the conversation today.
You know, my final thought here for educators, this particular platform with this episode

(01:31:23):
is really to normalize how tough this profession is so that you walk away feeling like, man,
not only is the job hard like it has been for me, but it is for so many people.
And we are normalizing that.
These are good people doing great work.
It's a tough job.
And at the end of the day, it is incredibly exhausting.

(01:31:45):
It's been my honor, man, to be with you on this particular episode and this podcast.
Look forward to bringing all of our educational friends, practical tips, useful strategies
to help you combat this exhaustion and just put you on the path to just leading, loving
the profession, connecting with students and changing lives.

(01:32:07):
Look forward to doing it again, man.
Absolutely.
So thank you all again.
Thank you for listening.
Subscribe, like, share, download Educational Warfare here.
And we will talk to you next Tuesday, the mailbag episode.
And thank you for listening.
I'm Dr. Jordan Lauer.
That was Dr. Ryan Jackson.
And we will talk to you soon.