The Curriculum Wars - Who Decides? - Educational Warfare

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to Educational Warfare. I'm Dr. Jordan Lauer alongside my co-host, the one

(00:17):
and only Dr. Ryan Jackson. As always, a huge shout out to our great team, our generals
of video, audio, and direction magic, Tommy Ruth and Matt Paff. What's up, gentlemen?
How y'all doing today? I really hope this episode doesn't get banned just because of
what we're talking about today. What do you think, Ryan?
A nice little pun there. Yeah, I'm excited about this one because I think it's something

(00:41):
that speaks to, man, something that's going on. Every educator in this country is feeling
this particular crunch right now, dude. We are talking about banning books. We're talking
about banning curriculum or adapting curriculum to potentially meet certain agendas. It's
going to get interesting today, man. Deep dive, if I understand correctly.

(01:02):
We're going to deep dive of all this, where it came from, what's happening now, and how
it could affect us in the future. So a huge deep dive. But first, before we get into it,
let's make sure to follow us on all of our socials. We're at edwarfarex, where I'm a
blues guy at Dr. Jordan Lauer. And don't forget, you can now watch us full videos, episodes

(01:24):
on Spotify and YouTube. Our YouTube channel is Educational Warfare. Come check it out.
We're posting videos. We're posting shorts of the videos. We might do some mini pods
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button so you can catch everything we do. And don't forget, please email the show if

(01:46):
you have any questions, comments, strategies. If you just want to vent a little bit about
this, please do at educationalwarfare.pod at gmail.com. And like Dr. Jackson said, the
episode's topic is a heavy one. We're focusing on the curriculum wars, book banding, and
who decides what students learn. So, you know, what's up, right? I mean, what do you think

(02:08):
about this before we really jump into your initial thoughts?
Yeah, man, this is a good one. And I think I'm really going to try to stand in here as
maybe the voice of reason. I've certainly been on the side of the administrator who
is trying to work with a teacher who may begin feeling those pressures of, can I teach this?

(02:31):
Is this still okay? But then I also feel like I lean more sometimes on the side of, you
know, just how outright oppressive is this? I mean, is it really being trickled down to
the point of, no, you can't do that. And if you do, I'm coming for you. So I'm hoping

(02:52):
we can unpack that today, man. We're looking for some truth in here. What's actually going
on? I know I think you've even got some notes on Project 2025, which I think people will
find very interesting. But then also some of the anecdotal pieces that we know there
are literal books being banned in certain counties, certain states. I mean, these things
are happening. So let's dig into it, man. Yeah. So we're going to go into first, you

(03:15):
know, the rise of book bans and curriculum restrictions. How did this come about? You
know, like always, we're going to bring this to you with that radical candor, with that
truth. It's a spicy topic, right? So you may have certain feelings about this. Love
to hear them. Again, at educationalwarfare.pod at gmail.com. Let us know. So by book bans,

(03:36):
right? By book bans and these curriculum wars we're talking about, we're referring to the
removal of restriction or restriction of certain books from school libraries, classrooms or
the curriculum due to its content. Right. So this is why we're banning. What's inside
the book? You're defining that for us right now. So what is happening? They're banning

(03:57):
books. What does that mean? Right. You know, and why are they being banned? Well, you know,
often these books have the alleged inappropriate books and curriculum often have some type
of topic covering either race, gender, identity, sexuality, or we're even talking at some points
debates about historical accuracy. Like what do we want to know about history? What should

(04:18):
we know about history and those type of things? So, you know, for who's decided what students
learn, you know, we have to talk about this first and like items like CRT. Remember that?
That was a big deal. Man, CRT was hot for a minute. Critical race theory. Right. Yeah.
And you talk about that was an acronym, right? It was a historical discussions of systematic
inequality or injustices. And one thing that's in there, we're getting to this area where

(04:42):
a lot of these bands focus specifically or starting to target the LGBTQ plus community
and like their involvement schools and like, how do we work with that segment of people
and what do we, how do we make them feel seen, but then also make sure other students aren't
thinking about it. So that's a big hot topic. So, you know, but education, you know, censorship

(05:05):
in education is not really a new thing in the U.S. It's really, and I always tell my
students this when we're talking about history and things, it's really easy to kind of think
that what we're dealing with now is the only time that's happened. Like, oh, it's a new
thing. Oh, this is awful. This must be the first time, but there's been book bands and
things forever. I mean, going back here in Tennessee, you know, like Lincoln something

(05:25):
happened, the Scopes Monkey Trial of 1925. That's a huge thing we teach in, in, man,
you just went from 2025 to 19. Was that intentional, man? Like you literally went back 100 years
ago. It's a hundred year anniversary. Yeah. And I love your point on that. And you always
say, or you've said a few times, you know, that history rhymes. So of course we've went

(05:48):
through this at some point and now you're taking us back to 1925. And what was that
trial called? The Scopes Monkey Trial. So in this trial, let's give a little background
of like a big trial at the time of what do we teach? So this is fighting over teaching
evolution in the state of Tennessee. So there was a thing called the Butler Act, which actually
made teaching evolution illegal. Okay. So his high school teacher taught evolution and

(06:13):
he was obviously charged against the Butler Act and the ACLU came up to help him and the
the, the prosecuting attorney was the former presidential candidate, very famous for everything
he did. William Jennings Bryan. You remember that name? Is that a name for the past? He
gave a very famous speech in 1896 called the cross a gold speech. It's a great speech,

(06:35):
but he's the lawyer. So this is a high profile guy who ran for president several times being
the prosecuting attorney and the ACLU basically knew that they would lose, but they wanted
it publicized. Well, they wanted, they wanted to lose. So they hired him as their prosecuting
attorney. The ACLU was defending scopes. So ACLU are the, the, the prosecutors had William
Jennings Bryan, but the ACLU knew ACLU knew they would lose, but this, the whole point

(06:59):
of that trial was actually to get this out there sensational into the public. Yeah. Right.
Let people know this is happening. Right. This is being banned. So it starts there.
Then let's jump forward about 25 years to the fifties and we have McCarthy era. Oh man,
of course. Blacklist. Right. At that time, some books were deemed un-American. Oh wow.
Yeah. I'm actually teaching this in class right now. We've talked about the house, the

(07:20):
HUAC, the house un-American activities committee. Kind of crazy to think we actually had like
an un-American committee, like, Oh, that's right. Hey, but McCarthy story is sad, bro.
The way that ends. It really is like he was, he was on top of the world and then everybody
quickly was like, the way it ends, you know, anybody do your due diligence on that dude,
McCarthy, man, the way his story ends versus where he is at the height of this power, man,

(07:44):
where he's literally, I mean, just, just pulverizing people, you know, casting them out. I think
of that guy, he ended up making a movie called Rafifi, which is this great heist film. But
anyway, he's a blacklisted writer has to end up going overseas to Europe, you know, to
make movies. He ends up making some of his best stuff over there. Julian Sands maybe
is the guy's name, but man, it's just that McCarthy era fifties, you know, Hollywood

(08:08):
was just crushed under that weight. Yeah. Big thing to try to get them. And that's where
you start sending, you know, so there we're looking at why I mentioned that. So that's
not exactly in classrooms, but this is this idea that we're looking at Hollywood, we're
starting to censor art, we're starting to censor what people are taking in. And obviously
that filters down to what are people most protective of their children. Yeah. So it's

(08:29):
going to filter down. So we have that the fifties where we're looking at that. Then
we go to the civil rights era, right? 1960s to present, you know, we have books like to
kill a mockingbird, you know, has always been one of those books that's listed because
it talks about the social injustice and race issues. Then you have the bluest eye by Tony
Morrison was challenged and being for addressing again, social justice and racism. And now,

(08:51):
all right, so let's look at right now. Yeah, we have a book that's being banned right now.
You know, Margaret, Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale and the graphic, the graphic
novel mouse, which is about this is a powerful one, right? The Holocaust about the Holocaust.
Yeah. So and you might say, why are some people, you know, banning that? Why are they banning
The Handmaid's Tale? You know, and we'll get into that. You know, is it fear of what they

(09:15):
could learn or is there actually something, you know, scary in there that they don't want
kids to know? And we're banning books that cover LGBTQ issues. They're challenged and
banned because you have some, you know, the big issue with that is for the LGBTQ plus books
and whatnot is it's the age, right? It's you have this, you have this debate of representation,

(09:36):
right? Is it important that there may be a child who falls into that, you know, that
they want to see something that makes them feel like, oh, that's me. That's the whole
point. We see this in Hollywood, right? Representation, representation of like, oh, like superheroes,
you know, like we're starting to like, I want a superhero that looks like me. Yeah. You
know, and there hasn't been for years for a lot of these groups and same thing here.

(09:57):
But those issues there at what age, you know, like that's where we're getting, like our
some parents are uncomfortable with it. I'd be like, possibly a kid could read that at
a certain age. And it's so tough because it's such a emotional thing. You know, I mean,
it's anything with, with parents and kids. Cause you get it, you know, you dip your toe
into the awareness argument to, or exposure. So it's one thing representation. Sure. I

(10:20):
want to see myself reflected. I want to be represented in these stories. And then I think
you're also going to get this other argument, right? But you're exposing people, young people
to something way earlier potentially than they normally would at a very impressionable
time. So I guess, especially as you start to get into, you know, things that just aren't

(10:43):
as visible. So LGBTQ orientation status versus people of color. Right. Okay. And are you
planting seeds versus holding up a mirror, you know? And I just think that's, that's,
that's where that chasm starts. That crack starts. Yeah. And it's, and that is the whole

(11:04):
point is, you know, holding up a mirror, letting us see or planting seeds, as you said, it
was just a great way of saying it, you know, then you're getting into the intention of
the author, you know, and that that's murky waters. Art is art. You know, and I, you know,
again, I always tell my students, but I, AP European history, a big part of that class
is art. And a lot of kids are like, why are we looking at art? Like, why are we talking

(11:25):
about pictures and stuff? You know, paintings. Well, you know, art, obviously at the time
there wasn't news. So that's how people showed how they felt. And art reflects what you're
going through, you know, in times of peace, it's romantic type art and beautiful. Like
here's our city, here's our town. Here's a couple that's pushing each other on the swing
times of war, dark, you know, so you can legit see what's happening in a time period by the

(11:47):
art they produce. And in modern times, we have many more ways to share that, but it's
still the same thing with books and everything. This author, did they feel this? Do they want
kids to know that they're seen or is, are there nefarious?
I love you. I love that you brought up the word art specifically. Um, you know, I had
a great quote by Ben Affleck of all people recently, of all people, man, where he was

(12:12):
talking about AI and entertainment, you know, movies specifically writing, and he gets into
craftsmanship versus artistry, you know, craftsmanship, you know, how to do something, you know how
to do it well. Artistry, you know, when to stop. I just love that man. It was really
profound, right? So it made me think of him and his quote, but you know, back to your

(12:36):
thing about art, if this is art and the artist, the writer, okay, then education, specifically
teachers, uh, you know, committees that choose what art will be implemented into the class,
you know, so my question to you had been, you know, what is education then in this relationship?

(12:58):
So if there's the artists, educators are what the curators? I mean, that's a great question.
And I'm asking for a reason because you're talking about, well, you got to start, uh,
you know, ascertaining what their meaning is or, you know, what is the full message
behind this? If it's clear and then does that become the curators role to do that work?

(13:23):
The artist role say, Hey man, this is just up for interpretation. Yeah. But you as a
curator, you figure it out what it means and how it can impact. And I think where you get
there, I think we're teachers, you know, educators get really upset with this or feel odd is
that it kind of naturally goes to this negative route that, you know, they'll just not do

(13:43):
any of that curating or vetting. You know, like when you think of a museum, let's break
down the word curator, what's their job to look at the pieces of art, to put them together
in a way that makes sense, that makes your museum or your show kind of flow. And that's
exactly what teachers do. And there's just this feeling that we'd be out here being like,
oh, here's this, here's this, oh, you're like, okay. And I want to double down on that too.

(14:05):
Um, and this goes back to, you know, my experiences as, as an administrator, as a principal and
also as a teacher though. So we are as employees of a school system that fall under the umbrella
of the state. I mean, we are agents of the state. Yes. We work in the system. We're vetted

(14:27):
through the system. We maintain our certifications through the system. Right. So I find it just
interesting sometimes hypocritical, sometimes just outright like confusing the state or
big brother, if you want to call it, is concerned about its own people, its own agents going

(14:54):
rogue in the field and just pushing out whatever curriculum books that they want, almost seemingly
forgetting that. I mean, we're agents of the state. Like we, we work in this system for
you and that I think gets to this deeper rooted, whatever that is of, we just don't trust our

(15:16):
own agents. Yeah. We don't trust our own people. That's where teachers get upset because it's
like, why are you looking at me? You don't. And I think they have a valid argument. Right.
It's like, you don't, you don't, you don't trust me. If you don't trust me, why am I
being put through all of these certification hoops annually? And I mean, you know, principals
go through it too. I mean, we, we take these things to get vetted so we can, you know,

(15:39):
evaluate teachers and stuff like that. But teachers go through all this, that, and more,
you know, what, what are your points called? You've got to add up, I know certain points.
Oh yeah. I mean, we have all the, we have the observation, we have the professional
development, PDP points. I mean, you've got to do all these things. I'm giving you painstaking
details in the life of an educator because they have to jump through these hoops to be

(16:00):
vetted and certified by the state, the same people who are then turning around and saying,
we may not trust what you're bringing into the classroom on your own free will. Is that
how you're kind of feeling as an educator? Yeah. And that's, I think that's an awesome
point there is that, you know, non-educators, they may feel that, oh, it's kind of like

(16:21):
another job. Like you get your degree or your, whatever you need to go into that field. And
then all of a sudden you got the job. And for a lot of jobs, like you can better, you
know, you can go through some training and whatnot, but for most jobs, let's, let's say
you're sitting at a cubicle, right? You get the job. You may have something, if something
changes in the company, you might go to training, but you kind of have that job until you move

(16:42):
or you don't. Where like, and maybe they think that's for teachers, like, oh, they went to
college, they got hired by some principal. I don't know who that principal is. So I don't
even know if I trust the principal. And then they're just there. It's like, no, we, we
constantly have to keep updating and proving and improving and being vetted. Stay sharp.
Yeah. My wife just went through the one on AI and she's like, it was intense, pretty

(17:04):
good depth to it and gave us even some history that she, she wasn't aware of at that time.
So right. Constantly keeping you sharp, sharpening that saw we're going through these processes.
Yeah. You don't just get hired off the street as a teacher and then that's it. Keep proving
it. I think some people think that when these type of things go up, like, oh, what, what
are these people showing our kids? Who are they? It's like, we're people who up until
this point, the state has said, you're here. Great job. Yeah. So when we're talking about

(17:27):
this, before we get into it, see, some people might ask, okay, there's book banning, there's
curriculum things. How like, how does that happen in the land of the free, you know,
where we live in the land of the free with the first amendment of our bill of rights
being free, the freedom of speech and expression, how is banning anything legal? And it all

(17:48):
starts with like the thing where this all gets drawn from is a Supreme Court case in
1982. Okay. So the Supreme Court basically issued in the case Island Trees Union Free
School District, that's a mouthful, verse Pico 1982, they did a noncommittal ruling.
So it basically didn't say yes or no. They just said, you know, Supreme Court tries to

(18:09):
set up precedent, obviously. And they basically said, we're not committal or we're not committed
to this. We're being noncommittal to where we'll look at this almost case by case or
depending. And what they said was, local school boards have broad discretion in the management
of school affairs. Okay. And that discretion must be quoting them must be exercised in

(18:32):
a manner that comports with the transcendent imperatives of the first amendment. So a couple
of things there, if you're looking at that, where this gets in the weeds, why we're in
this issue is the Supreme Court did not want to make a blanket, hey, we're setting curricular
ideas for the whole nation. That's why they're noncommittal. But where it gets kind of funky

(18:54):
here is the school boards, the local school boards have that discretion. That's where
you get to it. Because our country is so big that, you know, a school board in Connecticut,
most likely has super different views on something than a school board in southwestern Texas.
Safe to say. Yes, you know, so that's where we get into this. So it's that it's that Supreme

(19:15):
Court case that really kind of sets this and then so it sets it in terms of empowering
local school boards to say yes or no on we're teaching this more. We're teaching that. And
and just for I think to kind of wrangle it in a little bit. I mean, somebody has to manage
it ultimately. I'm not saying local school boards having is a bad thing. Yeah, it can't

(19:38):
just be willy nilly. But the Supreme Court is saying we're not going to be the one that
imposes that we're instead going to empower hyper local agencies, i.e. school boards,
to make those kind of decisions on what's best for their communities. Right. And so
but when you open that up and again, local school boards, they have the pull their finger

(19:58):
on the pulse of their area. That's why they exist, which I think is a good thing. Because
when you start getting large state school boards running just right, these local school
boards are voted on by their constituents within zip codes. So you think we're picking
the people that best represent us on a hyper local level. The problem with that is when
you have those those groups best intentions laying in their heart. Now you can have various

(20:23):
outside groups lobbying and influencing. Okay, so you'll start to see this scatter shot of
that. That's why all over the country, certain things are banned here, but they're not banned
here. And that's where it starts to get a little, you know, a little bit shaky. So some
recent trends, let's go into like, okay, so we're talking about book banning, you might
be sitting there going, okay, how big of an issue is this? Yeah, they banned mouse. Okay,

(20:45):
the band, they've been talking about banning the all the books that deal with race and
social issues to kill a mockingbird. So let's get some actual things. So from 2023 to 2024,
over 10,046 books have been banned covering 21 states and 66 school districts. That seems

(21:05):
significant. Yeah, according to statistic.com. So that's I mean, that's 10,046 books banned.
And you're you know, and the one of the issues here too, is when you have all of these, like
the various books, is it worth fighting? And that's where this becomes an issue. Because
if somebody says we should ban this book for a reason x, okay, now they're looking into

(21:26):
it. Now, okay, should we but then somebody else says we should ban this book, it becomes
they just get a barrage of this. So do you just if so many people are angry about it,
you just cave? Or do you put up the fight for that book? And the next book? And let
me let me ask this question. And I think is valid. And I don't I don't mean it to be silly.

(21:47):
I don't talk to me about from current teacher lens in the classroom. And I know you deal
primarily with high school students. But I think that's I think that's the appropriate
age group for this particular question. Right. You know, talk to me about man, kind of the
the lunacy of in this era where kids aren't excited about reading period, reading books,

(22:17):
and I'm talking long form novels, nonfiction in depth, you know, Truman Capote style, you
know, just, they're not doing that, no, man, but by and large, they're not doing that.
So man, it's just hard for me from this outside perspective looking in, we're going to double

(22:38):
down on this book banning deal when kids aren't really that excited about so it brings up
this question for me like, is this just the death knell for books? Like, all right, they're
already not reading them that much. They're on shaky legs. Man, let's just okay, KO punch,
just Mike Tyson, NES, you know, punch out round one, just one uppercut, and it's over

(23:02):
for books. Or is it something else, man, because I'm just not seeing why we would put this
much energy and effort into something when it feels like books as a medium are already
on shaky ground for young people. Help me understand that, man.

(23:22):
It's crazy to me because, you know, the same people, right, the same, like when you look
at these groups, one of their first things they talk about is students aren't achieving
enough, right? They're not getting the same scores, they're not getting good enough scores,
they're not doing what we should be doing. And then they say, well, it's because we're
not looking into enough content, they're trying to change curriculum. So those same people

(23:44):
are saying we aren't scoring enough. Why is it always that the same people are banning
books are also the same ones complaining that kids don't read enough, like you just said.
Maybe stop taking all the books away, especially the ones that make kids feel something. And
that's what you're saying.
Especially in this critical time in their life where you go from, you know, what is
it third to fourth to fifth, where you go from learning to read or learning how to read

(24:10):
to then learning to read for content. I mean, that's a pretty, those couple years, they're
significant. I'm just learning how to read. And then for, I would almost say, man, this
growing number of kids that struggle to read and not motivation, I mean, literally struggle.
So then we have to do this extra work of, man, I know this is a struggle. So I want

(24:36):
to keep you motivated on this struggle. And that's when we start offering graphic novels,
heck comic books. You know, when I was a teacher, man, it was kind of like get them interested
in anything, whatever it is, get them interested in reading because it was so challenging.
And I don't want to be stuck in 2008, dude. I mean, so, you know, pull me all the way

(24:58):
up to current times. Is that still a struggle to get kids to read a book?
Yeah, I think it is because of the availability of other things. And again, because even in,
for example, my wife, who's a teacher, was talking about a teacher she's worked with
in the past, who they had, they have like the English in that area have kind of a set

(25:22):
curriculum. You know, it's not like scripted or anything, but it's like, hey, teach this
and this and this. And they'd been getting bad scores for a while. So this teacher was
like, hey, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to teach this novel. Okay. That
way I can, the things we need to work on, it's not just like, what's the main point?
What's the context? Those revolving English, you know, standards and whatnot. So she was

(25:44):
like, I'm going to teach this novel to do it. Well, she got a slap on the wrist because
the novel isn't in the curriculum. And I get why that happens in the state level. I said,
take that out because you did have some teachers who just love this book and they just sit
on it for two months to really take apart. And they weren't covering a lot of the other
standards. So I don't care about that, but they, she got in trouble for having them read,
break apart, discuss a novel because it wasn't in the standards. And I think that's what

(26:09):
we're getting is that there's, we don't have this. And then it's also to what the other
alternative is. Are you as a 11, 12 year old going to read a 250 page book, even if it's
great or are you going to consume hundreds of 30 seconds shorts? Yeah. That's, that's
the thing. It's back to my, I wonder. All right. And this is, I get it a bit nefarious

(26:33):
and it's purely speculative. This is just, I wonder. So if we know that kids are no longer
reading like they used to whenever that was, but we know they're no longer reading as much
for pleasure outside of school, we'll say that. All right. Then it's safe to reason.
The only time they probably do read is when they're captivated here, compulsory attendance

(26:58):
law says you gotta be in school and guess what we're doing at school. We're reading.
So anybody who would be against that kind of learning, that kind of representation,
that kind of seed planting, wherever you fall on that spectrum, that stance of for or against,
that's going to happen in schools. Yeah. So that's why, so that's why you get some of

(27:23):
these players in here where we'll go over some of like, who are these organizations
are kind of driving this. Okay. That's exactly the point you're making is if you are fearful
of what they're learning for whatever your motivations. And I'm not, you know, I'm not
going to pull any punches here. There are some groups out there who just simply don't,

(27:43):
because they want to control the narrative about certain things in history. They don't
want kids learning about something because it's, and just like you said, if you have,
if they're doing that on their own, then that is a small amount. If you have a state of
classes all learning about this, now you're going to have to change the mind of thousands

(28:05):
of people who've been, who've looked at this. So a way of banning this again, to not seem
nefarious or conspiratorial here is the best way to make sure that a message doesn't grow
or get embedded. That's against what you want is to make sure that in mass people can't
study it. So you ban it, right? If you don't want a discussion of social justice, like

(28:27):
you kind of want to keep pushing like, well, then don't have that allowed in classes because
then if two kids, three kids, a hundred kids read that on their own, that's okay. But the
whole state having that kind of in their head. So when you do something and they're later
like, hold on, like I remember talking about this when I was younger, like this seems opposite
of what we talked about that, that, you know, we talked about this was bad and you have
to care about what people are feeling. And now we're saying we don't. But it still seems,

(28:50):
I mean, it's still interesting that they would go for that approach, meaning, right, we're
going to ban it during this time when kids are concentrated and they have to be there.
And probably the only time they're going to read anything because they're forced to do
it. All right. But yet they can still, the kid vet everything through social media, the

(29:15):
internet, AI. I mean, it just still seems kind of risky. It's like, all right, we're
going to double down on the banning, the curriculum in something that most kids just don't care
about at mostly, right? You see where I'm going with this? And they can always pivot
over here to see, is this true? Or what do my peers think about this? And they're going

(29:36):
to get some completely different far off narrative. But the idea still is catch them in mass.
And this is our stance on this particular historical situation and the hopes that they
internalize that, take that as fact moving forward.
Yeah. I got a question. Go ahead, Tommy. Can you guys maybe define a little bit more specifically

(30:03):
what exactly it means to ban a book in education? Yeah, absolutely. So when you ban a book,
right? You're taking it from, you're basically saying this book, there's a couple of different
levels. There's curricular banning, like, hey, you're not allowed to talk about this.
Okay. So that is where, or you're not, we're not going to use this book. So it makes it

(30:25):
more difficult. So you take, for example, let's just go with To Kill a Mockingbird because
it's been banned, it's been unbanned, it's been banned. You basically say you cannot,
if it's banned, you cannot make lessons out of this. It cannot be an active part of the
school curriculum. So that just takes its content out of it. But we're also dealing
with it. Which means as soon as you do, you're going to be held accountable for that. There's

(30:48):
going to be punitive punishment. Yeah. You're getting pulled in the principal's office,
like, hey, this is on the banned book list. And you can be kind of like a revolutionary,
but it's a great content. I don't agree with it being banned. And then your principal.
It doesn't matter, man. The speed limit says 65. Yeah, right. There's a law. I can't not
do anything. It is what it is. Right. But we're also dealing with, that's a great question,
man. Like we're also dealing with a secondary type ban too of where we were just talking

(31:13):
in mass, them learning it. But now we're getting, which is upsetting a little people a little
bit more is simply having it in the school library. Not even being taught. Yeah. It exists.
Accessible. Yes. It's accessibility. Okay. And that's where a lot of people get upset
because again, like nobody wants in America, nobody wants a library with six books in it

(31:38):
because it's like, Oh, you can't read that and that and that. And then you get that question
of accessibility. What, you know, we have debates over what level is it? Is this for
too young? You know, and then again, you get into what are the librarians doing, which
we'll go into that a little bit, but basically banning it means the school can't use it or
it can't be used in the library or in the library for kids to check out. Uh, sometimes

(32:01):
you get that it has to be put in a special section, like an older kid section. If you
have like a multi-grade school. Uh, so it's just basically attempting to take it out of
the hands of the kids while at school. Okay. The other side says, well, that's the parents
job. Okay. But also, you know, my reaction to that is I don't know. And if you're out
there, God bless you, but I don't know many parents that are taking their kids to book

(32:24):
stores. So most kids chance to see a book, mostly rest in peace bookstores. Right. I
know it's super sad. I love bookstores going there. The smell. Yeah. Sit there and just
look at books for hours. But you know, most of these times, like this is the only time
the kid might see that book, you know, cause like again, they're not going to be like,
oh, we're going to books, a million, but hasn't this extended to like public libraries? Yes.

(32:46):
In some cases extending to that because there are kids section in public libraries. So it's
just this whole thing of trying to pull these things. So banning it is either curricular
or it's just accessibility. Right. We do not want this in my child library period for him
or her to stumble upon it, you know, fall into it and internalize the ideas within it.

(33:10):
I'm going to change them. Yeah. So, you know, some of the groups that are kind of behind
this, let's talk about these groups. Cause like that one of the groups is, you know,
in the news a lot, you know, hot topic is project 2025. Okay. And they're basically
their objective. It's a conservative organization and project 2025 proposes, you know, a bunch
of changes to public education. Uh, they want to reduce federal education, uh, funding recently.

(33:36):
They're talking about completely getting rid of the department of education. We talked
about that in our, uh, educational smackdown episode about Linda McMahon. Will we have
it? She could be secretary of education if we have a department of education. Yeah. That's
one of their big things is that they're worried about. Um, they want to, so they want to reduce
funding, uh, promoting classroom censorship, like what kids are learning. Cause their fear

(33:57):
is that they're, you know, we're all indoctrinating them that, you know, uh, where you get this
idea of the, you know, the white guilt that all white people are bad and they subjugate
and they're like afraid of that by teaching history and slavery is somehow the hidden
message there. Um, or, you know, and again, expanding book bands and the way they've done
this, you know, they're at the initiative wants to, like I said, get rid of the department

(34:20):
of education, uh, which also gets rid of some civil right protection for students and that
could have, you know, marginalized some communities, um, especially marginalized people already.
So they say we shouldn't indoctrinate kids. Okay. That's like their whole thing, project
25, but banning books is literally forcing one perspective on people. And that's, that's

(34:44):
the definition of indoctrination, right? So that's one of the interesting things about
that group. They're super controversial and they're now gaining power. A bunch of the
members are being put up within the new administration this year for a pretty powerful roles that
were all affiliated with this group. Um, another one is the great hearts Academy. Okay. So

(35:04):
this is a network of publicly funded charter schools that are mostly located in Arizona,
Texas, Louisiana, and they offer a classical education. That's often like the key phrase
can be used here. Um, Greek philosophy, Western literature, they do promote critical thinking,
but their curriculum is facing criticism because there's social exclusion and some ideological

(35:26):
biases. Um, so those, that's a more of a group that's trying to say, Hey, we have this curriculum,
but when you really kind of tear it down, you're like, some things are missing here.
Is that, you know, purposeful or what? Um, and then you also have just, so those are
some groups, but then you just have state level legislatures. Um, you know, they propose

(35:48):
or enacted legislation to restrict discussions on topics like critical race theory, uh, and
LGBTQ plus issues in the classrooms. Um, and so for example, it's like, what do we
mean by that? You know, there are laws in Florida, Tennessee, our library law that we
can break into, uh, and Texas have been implemented to limit education, addressing these like

(36:09):
systematic racism, gender issues. You know, how much you, here, and you go through kind
of this extensive list here, you know, how much do you think some of this is just keeping
the peace at school? Um, and just again, and I wonder, right where, man, just given the
state of things, um, and let's, let's go there, you know, violence in schools, active shooters,

(36:35):
all of that, given the state of things, are we really just trying to ensure down to concepts,
the safest, most sterile, you know, most non combative classroom possible. Right. Yeah.

(36:57):
Just, just look, just the facts, man. We don't need any of the sensationalism. We don't need
any speculation. We don't want any controversy. We don't want any hurt feelings because it's
already tough enough out here. We just want smooth sailing. Yeah. And you could totally

(37:21):
get that. Like there is, but again, that goes to the whole teacher kind of advocacy for
ourselves, right? Like the teacher advocacy, teacher efficacy, you could say to that we
all know our classrooms, like no teachers are walking and be like, I'm going to blow
up my classroom. It's going to be chaotic. Some chairs might get thrown today. Nobody
wants that. Man. I hear you on that. Again, I'm going to leverage the time in the administrator

(37:48):
seat. There are educators who think like that, but that's not the reality. Totally. And they
go in and they can't manage it. They don't have control over the topic, over the outcomes.
Right. So we find ourselves, I mean, I've been there anecdotally. You find yourselves
now having to play firefighter and putting out certain things, unwanted outcomes from

(38:15):
these conversations, from these topics. And you look back in hindsight like, man, wow,
that could have been avoided. And I think that's where I'm going with some of that.
Is it like, you know, we just don't have the capacity in certain areas. And mind you, I
understand I'm saying this in the same conversation where we said, right, but teachers are vetted.
They get put through certifications. They get through all of that. Both things can still

(38:39):
be true. You have to go through those processes. And I've still seen it play out in a way that
is just, man. Super negatively. Yeah. You know, it doesn't end well. And it makes you
wonder, all right, so are we in here fighting for freedoms or are we just trying to get
through the school day, man? Like, yeah. And I think that's the, you know, that is an important

(39:03):
topic because yes, we have to do that. We have to, you know, number one goal for administrators,
teachers, safety of students, safety, happiness of students, number one goal every single
day. So how do you balance that? The problem is when you get into some of this, that either
we do go, and I use this term, you know, you hear it in the news a lot, either we kind

(39:25):
of go this nice, easy, whitewashed version of things. Okay. Or we go in and tackle it.
And some issues are prickly. Like history is not pretty. Yeah. I mean, most things in
history are negative. Yeah. There are very few things in the history book I'm like, and
everybody hugged, smiled, and loved each other. Like, I don't know. I've said that. Yeah.

(39:48):
History is messy, man. Yeah. History is messy. So if you're talking just history class, okay,
but you're talking about social issues, again, messy. Like how do you teach, how do you teach
the civil rights movement without getting a little, you know, your hands a little dirty?
Yeah. How do you teach, teach the issues of civil war, slavery, all of these things. Like
there are some issues that have to be a little dirty. And I totally get that you want to

(40:12):
protect it. But by protecting and making kind of a nice, smooth sailing, are you doing long
term harm? You know, the whole point of a free public education, which America has,
and which I think has helped contribute to the greatness of our society is that we've
educated everybody and we give them this information is that we don't want people figuring out

(40:37):
stuff when they're 22. You know, I don't want a kid to have to Google something at 19 because
I was like, I don't want to talk about that. That could be bad. And they just don't know
because everything should be built up in their head as a Rolodex of things that's happened
before so you can assess what's happening right now. And so I always tell my students,
I was like, the reason I study this is so something happens now. I want to hold you

(40:58):
to kind of the same arena that we've been, we've been kind of squaring off in and that's
thinking of the teacher. But I'm gonna go back to something you said earlier in the
episode. You know, the way people view things, feel or act in Connecticut or Vermont versus
South Texas versus Mississippi versus Georgia, in some regards, gonna be vastly different.

(41:22):
And I'm just talking teachers here. I'm not even talking legislators, just talking people,
just people, human beings. So their biases, their perspective, you know, their history
is gonna be thought of and taught differently geographically. Right? Right. I mean, we can
almost assume that's true. So then you're not your argument, but the argument for something

(41:48):
like the Department of Education, right, comes in as this baseline, this mood stabilizer,
yeah, right, umbrella covering everything that we're all going to be here. Because your
point earlier is we're not here. Yes. So we need something to get us here. And that too

(42:10):
is a rub. Yeah, it's because we really want to just be doing what we want to be doing
and what we think is right. Right. But when there's this other governing body that says,
right, but that's not the case. So then we all have to meet in the middle of this thing.
And historically, it's like, well, whoever is in control at that time controls that piece.

(42:33):
Right. And that's where you get these outside, you know, these outside parties, like, again,
the Project 2025, you know, Moms for Liberty, right? Like that group. It's wonderful. Like
if you were to break down how to make a group with a very specific agenda, get into things

(42:54):
and seem like they don't have it like they seem like they're doing the right thing. Put
the word mom in front of it. Moms for Liberty. So everybody all of a sudden is like, oh,
well, moms, really, they have kids. Well, if you look at what they're doing, a lot of
it is we want our kids, which are a certain type of child to not hear about other certain
types of children. It can be nefarious, but they have they sneak in, they come to school

(43:16):
board meetings, they kind of get in these areas, they run for school board, and they
have this agenda of I don't want people to know about X because it goes against what
I'm thinking. That's that's the thing that scares me about the Department of Education
going away. I don't know exactly what effect it'll have, but I do know that if there's
not that overarching umbrella watching over things, then we could have my fear is that

(43:40):
kids in Mississippi, kids in Idaho versus kids in South Carolina, Connecticut, Illinois
are learning different things. That is not good for a country. Like, how do you hire
those people when they have almost a completely different view of things? And I know that
happens regionally with stuff. And I'm not talking like a kind of a biases or this is

(44:00):
how I was raised. But literally, they didn't hear something that happened. Yeah. You know,
and that's scary. Like that's scary, you know, because then we just get this weird,
I feel that it starts, which you'll start to get is almost like a, you know, tribalism,
factionalism. I hear you on that. I do. And I think of groups like, you know, Daughters
of the Confederacy and stuff like that. I hear you on that. My I wonder, you know, goes

(44:25):
back to young people. And we're man, it just seems like a pretty big leap. It's like, OK,
so we're just assuming that kids are showing up every day excited to learn can't wait for
you to pour into me. And they just retain everything that they got in there that day.
When the reality is, it's like a fraction of that. I mean, in my class, that's how it

(44:50):
goes. But other teachers, I'm sure it's the fraction, right? You know, I know we're all
going to double down. No, we're learning. We're bell to bell. And here, just the idea
of kids walking in and being excited about it. You know, I'm using your example, man,
the kid that walks into Connecticut that may be getting a more progressive education versus
the kid that walks in, you know, in Mississippi or South Texas that's getting maybe a hyper

(45:13):
localized view of things. They're both equally unexcited about what they're going in to learn
about that day because they're thinking about, you know, playing Marvel rivals and, you know,
doing this, that or the third. So I just I guess again, it feels like this big double
down on something that kids are just like, meh. Well, and yeah, that's it's literally

(45:37):
I'm trying to think of there's a movie or something. I can't remember the name right
now, but I can picture it. It starts as a kid's party or something. And the kids are
doing something and one kid, one kid pushes a kid or gets something. The other kids didn't.
And one of the parents steps like, hey, that's not fair. Let's do that. And eventually it

(45:57):
turns into the parents having this screaming match and the kids who it happened to end
up sneaking off in the corner and hanging out and playing. And it's the parents fighting.
And that's always what this is. Yeah, like it is a lot of times all of this. The kids
are over there like, all right, well, we'll chill until you're all done arguing about
this. You know, you're exactly right. They're not exactly. And but, you know, to almost

(46:17):
counter argue my this my own question here is right. Since by and large young people
do feel like that someone then has to in their best interest. And this is where it gets interesting
because now we're talking influence. What is leadership? It's the art of influence.
So because I'm indifferent or because I don't care, right, because I'm apathetic, you know,

(46:41):
pick your adjective for a kid. We then have to have some other governing body come in
and say, right, so we're going to care for you. And here's what that's going to look
like. Because, you know, most kids run in the mill, you know, Ryan Jackson at 10, 11,
12 years old, you're banning books. That means I don't have to read any. Sweet. Right. Yeah.
No homework tonight. Right. Because all the books got banned. You know, it's just getting

(47:06):
there in my mind. But now I can kind of see it. So even if you look at it through, well,
kids, this aren't that excited about it anyway, then I'm going to be this governing body that
comes in and says, right, we'll be the ones that are excited to make these decisions for
you. Yeah. Well, I think that's a great segue. Let's look at how this affects students. Let's
kind of break that down. So, you know, according to Columbia University's teacher college,

(47:29):
teacher college of educational leadership, their professor, Sonia Douglas, she says,
book bans diminish the quality of education students have access to and restrict their
exposure to important perspectives that form the fabric of a culturally pluralistic society
like the United States. She goes on to say, it's a battle over the soul of the country

(47:50):
in many ways. It's about what we teach young people about our country, what we determine
to be the truth and what we believe should be included in the curriculum they're receiving.
There's a lot at stake here. Okay. So that makes me think of, you know, one of the first
things I think of when I read that is the opening scene of Braveheart, where Robert

(48:12):
the Bruce says, remember, history is written by the victors. And that's kind of what's
going is like what I mean, she even says that what is what we determine to be the truth,
you know, and that that that bit right there makes me think, okay, then if the banning
thing continues, or if we just begin this hyper critical piece on anything that may

(48:34):
make us feel uncomfortable, fine, then we need some kind of curriculum piece on how
do we know what's true, right? How do we implement critical thinking into what we're reading
from AI generated responses to social media videos that we see, you know, ubiquitously
every day. I do like that bit in there about, you know, how do we ascertain now, especially

(49:02):
now what is true? Exactly. Yeah. And we don't want to like, and that's fear is like changing
stuff. Kind of a crazy fact that, you know, obviously throughout the years thinking this,
I've found this fact, it only takes two generations to wipe a fact from kind of memory and history.

(49:23):
If you take away all if you take away the content that covers that, it takes your father,
son, by the time grandson of the father is of learning age, if you haven't talked about
if you're taking away the materials, that fact can go away. Yeah. And then there's a
the additional stat on that is it takes three years, three generations to recover it. Yeah.

(49:43):
So in this in this limited, you know, attention economy that we have once it's gone. Yeah.
I mean, it's gone. There's enough people who have just a slight grasp of it. So if you
take it out, the people who kind of know a lot about it, they'll shout into the wind.
Those other people like, I always thought the same thing. Like until like when I was

(50:03):
younger, one of the things that bugged me is like in Star Wars, I was like, it hasn't
been that long. And people all by the time Luke's there, they're like, what are the Jedi?
Like Luke thinks they're a myth. And I was like, it wasn't even that long. Your dad was
one was like, you're exactly right. I know. I know he didn't know his dad, but like just
the idea that it's everybody's talk. Right. When it's when it's taken out of the public
consciousness. Yeah. And then when it's also you take it out and then you also throw in,

(50:28):
well, it didn't really happen like that. It wasn't that way. So you take it away. You
take the actual information away and then you pose it as they were, you know, and there's
to anchor this in real life. There's a there's a in New Zealand, a native language. Today,
Omari is the language or the people that speak the language. But the government saw that

(50:51):
language is less than, you know, just saw it think kind of blue collar, white collar,
United States, right? Right. College bound versus, you know, this vocational track. You
know, they just saw that as less than and systematically began eliminating that from
curriculum from schools. So the language itself was on its last leg of literally people who

(51:16):
could speak it. It was a dying language and it was through these grassroots hyper local
efforts to begin teaching the kids to bring that language back. And it's now like regaining
steam, but it's taken, you know, and they again had to go to legislation to get them
to stop fighting against that. But it was this group of people, an entire language about

(51:42):
to be extinct, you know, wiped from the planet. Yeah, it's crazy. And it came back down to
this kind of governmental view of what's good for the people of New Zealand and what's not.
And I think of that kind of through these lenses sometimes of, yeah, how we're eliminating
certain things because this particular group thinks it's not in our best interest. Yeah.

(52:03):
So exactly. So like when you have groups doing that, again, it's affecting students. What
are they learning? And we talked about earlier, do they really care? Students just sitting
there like, oh yeah. But we talked about this when we did our exhaustion episodes, right?
You know, go on, you know, Apple, Spotify, wherever your podcasts, the audio is also
on YouTube of our first arc over exhaustion. We talked about indoctrination. We talked

(52:27):
about a few of that exhausting teachers. We'll get that in a second. But for kids to care,
they have to feel something like that's where you really get it. Like you I've seen over
the years you talk about something, you kind of as a teacher, like, all right, I'm going
to cover this, you know, civil rights. I have to cover lynching. All right. That's a hard
topic to cover. So I'm sitting like, okay, I'm going to cover this. And I have kids that

(52:50):
are almost like just barely there every day. They're like, all right, I'll be nice. I'll
pay attention to you. But I'm not, I'm putting in the effort just to like get me through
the day who all of us, they start asking questions. They're just staring at you because they feel
something. They feel that. And that's a lot of this content being taken away is to make
them feel that because when you put empathy in something, it almost makes it impossible

(53:13):
to erase. But if you keep that feeling out, then it's opinion. Like I can change. If you
don't feel something for that, if I talk to you enough, I can change your opinion, make
you not feel it. But if you feel something like actually in your heart, like that is
just, that makes you feel weird. And I don't like it because I feel like it was wrong.
No matter what I say, your brains are ago. No, no, no. We felt that like through that
perspective we look through. Yeah. And I think you've, I think you've just almost nailed

(53:36):
it though, man, because the rub is in what you just said, you know, that I can make someone
feel a certain way. Give me enough time to talk to them. Right. That's influence. What
is leadership? It's the art of influence. But if I don't want you influencing my people
in that certain way, or I'm concerned of what that influence is, or, or let's give them

(53:57):
just 100% benefit of the doubt is what you're saying accurate. You know, are you representing
all the facts correctly? Right. I mean, I think that's, that's at a, at a just purely
benefit of the doubt level. Right. Hey, we want to make sure that that's really what's
happening and what's being said is on brand is accurate is research based. And man, a

(54:22):
lot of times if it's just left to the devices of the teacher, I think that scares a lot
of people. It does. Yeah. And it's, you get this to where you don't know. And you know,
kids come home and said, my teacher said this, the parents are like, what? And it's like
out of context, which is always super bro. That happens with how math is taught. Oh gosh.
But I wasn't taught that way. And I mean, yeah, no, no. And this is like real life,
bro. Timely. Yeah. You know, just the varying strategies on how we learned how to do, you

(54:48):
know, adding fractions versus how it's taught now. Now you compound that with social issues.
Yeah, bro. The word you used was lynching. I mean, that's going to really put people
on edge. Like I know that there are certain like as I and I always, you know, and you
know, we could shifting into how does this affect educators, right? You have fear of

(55:11):
losing your job. Like when I talk about that issue, you know, I have to take how I personally,
you have to basically be like a moderator, right? I'm going to give you this factor,
this question. I want to hear what you say. I'm not guide it. And you can't really, obviously
there's, you know, there is sides and lynching. Lynching is bad. That's the side I'm always
going to take. I'm on right now. That's controversial. Sorry. Very, very bad. But you can't, you

(55:35):
can't put your own personal emotion in there. You can't put like, oh, it's because these
people, you know, it's just that you want them to feel that emotional tug for what happened
when you start putting any personal biases or tying it to something in an incorrect way.
That's where you get in trouble. And again, like anything, there are, and I think that's
probably not probably that that's, I'm sure a great concern is there's the want to, you

(56:00):
know, I want to address these things because they're historical and they're important,
but then there's the can I, so can you, can you manage it? Can you successfully facilitate
that kind of conversation, that kind of lesson that doesn't spiral out of control that doesn't

(56:21):
bro? I've seen these things turn into arguments in class that that turns physical. I mean,
you've got to be able to manage that kind of environment. Not everyone brings that skill
set to the table. There's the science and the art of teaching. I've always thought that
the science scope and sequence curriculum, here's what I do protocols, the art, and I'll

(56:42):
go back to that Ben Affleck quote, knowing what to leave out, knowing when to stop, right?
Hey, the lesson stops here or the extrapolation of this concept across generations stops here.
I mean, knowing when to do that, man, not everybody has that capacity, man. Certainly

(57:02):
it is an art. And I think that is something that I think that type of training, you know,
that type of training is good. The problem is when you're banning this stuff, then you
don't like when you're banning it and saying, Hey, you just don't talk about it or like
talk, just cover it briefly. You also don't then get the chance to provide that, like
that training.
Man, I love that because what you're speaking to there makes me think of, and this is not

(57:25):
a knock on colleges or education institutions, but you'll hear people do by and large say,
man, they didn't train me for this. They didn't prep me for that. And I think a lot of that
is true. And you said that's going to require more training. Now to compound issues, we're
in this new era of we're going to reduce funding, certainly in states like Tennessee, where

(57:49):
the voucher bill has just going to impact us nearly a billion dollars. That's going
to have to be siphoned from somewhere. Most likely public education, dude, the training
for that. You're not going to be able to pay for that. This nuanced artistry approach to
teaching heavy concepts through an unbiased lens objectively so that people can develop

(58:12):
empathy on their own. I mean, man, it's, it's hairy, bro. It is, it is, and it's, it's,
it is scary because, you know, before I ever do a controversial topic, we cover how to
have conversations. Like I teach that life skill. I'm like, look, you did it when somebody
says something, if you disagree, your response can't be that is stupid. Yeah. Because what

(58:35):
you've just done is you've triggered them. Like they're kind of like listening or like
ready to argue. You're already starting that way. It's like, we don't do that. But not
every class dude is going to have the capacity of a Socratic Seminole. Oh, totally. Let's
just rip the bandaid off, man. I've been into my main summer class. I've been in. That's
right. And I know there's, there's going to be people listening that are going to say,
I can teach this in any school and any class. And there are those teachers that are that

(58:58):
great, but not every person has that capacity. And there's going to be some environments
that are not ready for teachers who don't have that capacity to teach something like
this in that way. And again, I just go back to the, I wonder on some of these things.
I think that then opens up the argument for people. Well, since we know we can't control

(59:21):
it across the board, then actually the opposite is better. We're just going to make sure that
because you really don't have the capacity to do that, man. You think you do, or you
might think you do, or some are like, I don't want to. Right. So instead we just take the
knee jerk reaction and we just pull that out altogether. You don't even have to worry about
that. That kind of stuff should be happening at home. Boom. Yeah. And, and you know, I

(59:46):
mean, it's, and that, that is a fear. Like we'd rather be, I think the better route is
to take that time to train. And I totally get like, you need to know your class. You
need to know what you can and can't talk about ways to do it. Cause there's very different
ways you could do a, we're going to have a conversation. You could do it on our like
show something and then have you like, you know, individually write about it, you know,

(01:00:07):
like just like, what's your, what's your thoughts on this? That way it's not really shared to
where you do that type things. And these are just strategies for teachers that you can
do. But the fear is right. Like just like working out, right? Like if you want to, you
know, make your body better, you're going to go through a little pain, right? Right.
Education's pain. Like if we want to be better as a society, we're going to have to go through

(01:00:30):
a little pain and that is part of it. And that's what you get is this. We're getting
a lot of, because of the exposure of this, I'm going to stay on the, I'm going to stay
on the exercise argument. I'm glad you went there. Okay. I'm going to stay there specifically
weightlifting and you're right in order to grow, you've got to tear muscle fibers, right?
So the physiology tells us that there's muscle stimulation and then you've got to tear those

(01:00:52):
fibers. You go to bed, you recover. Okay. But like weightlifting, if you're not careful
when doing the exercise, I'll use something as compounded like dead lifts. If you've ever
heard of that, we're going to take a massive amount of weight and lift it up off the floor
primarily with your back, lower back, hamstring action, glutes, but back heavily engaged.

(01:01:18):
If you're not doing that right, man, you have a chance to derail yourself for a very long
time and I'm now going to extend that analogy to the classroom. If you're not doing that
right and you're right, man, pain is growth, right? But if you're not doing it right, teaching

(01:01:39):
it right, man, the opportunity, the chances for derailment, woo, for catastrophe, exponentially
increase. And some of it, man, you're not walking back from quickly. I mean, I think
it is almost that comparable, man, when we get down to the practitioner and what it is

(01:01:59):
they're trying to move. I agree. And I think you can, and I think that's, again, we need
training and you need to be able to talk about it and understand what you can and can't do
with your people, ignore your classes. My fear is you rush yourself, that happens. You
weren't prepared and you kind of hurt yourself. I don't think that means you should never

(01:02:24):
ever go back to the gym again. That's the fear is that we just get these topics. I don't
ever want, you know, oh, well, you know, we had slaves in America, 13th Amendment, let
them go.
My thing is less living in fear and we do have to be pragmatic. I mean, you do have
to be, it's got to be about prevention. I mean, prevention is the best medicine. So

(01:02:50):
in this case, all right, I'm teaching this very heavy topic. I've met with my administrator
about it. And I know this sounds like doing the most. It sounds like big brother, but
again, we're talking about prevention as the best medicine being pragmatic in 2025. Here's
the heavy lesson. I've met with my administrator. This is what we'll be covering. This is as

(01:03:11):
deep as I'm going. These are the questions that I'm going to be asking. Here's how I
plan on facilitating it. Now, administrator 100% on board. I know what's going on so that
when those calls come in, because they're coming in, the calls are coming in, the emails,

(01:03:31):
someone's feathers are getting ruffled and you can't control what comment came out of
dude's mouth. Now you can when it's over, there won't be any more of that. You're out
of here, but it's already out of the bag at that point. So now the call's coming in, but
I've informed my administrator on the front end. They have signed off on this topic, this

(01:03:53):
conversation. They're not being blindsided now and they've got their stock answer ready
to go. That to me is just being pragmatic in 2025, but still doing the hard work like
you're talking about. I just think it can't be, and I don't mean to dismiss any teacher,
it just can't be willy nilly. It can't be something that we're going to try to wing.
Man, these things have to be thought through. They have to be explained and proactively

(01:04:20):
your team is on board with the concepts that are going to be taught that day. Man, that's
how serious you have to take it. I think you're completely right there and that's why we're
doing this episode because there's some teachers out there may not, they hear about it, but
a lot of times it's just like, I don't want to be part of all that news. Sometimes it's
just so harrowing to just do it. So they just kind of retreat and I'm going to do my job,

(01:04:40):
but we can't, like you're saying, we can't teach these things without being aware of
this is happening. Like you said, you should go to your principal and say, Hey, I am teaching
this today. This is how I'm doing it. Because in case of point is if you're uncomfortable
doing that, it's kind of like, man, if there's any doubt, there is no doubt. I try to live
by that kind of creep. Man, if there's any doubt, there is no doubt. If you think this

(01:05:02):
might go south and you haven't brought it to an administrator to vet, to get them on
your side, to be proactive, there's a good chance it will. So go ahead and have that
hard conversation. Cause if that one's too hard to have, man, imagine what this one's
going to be like when that parent is in your inbox. Right. When you get that, your phone

(01:05:23):
rings and it is the administrator and they're like, Hey, I've gotten four calls in under
an hour. Can you be down in my office? I'm teaching. It doesn't matter. I'm going to
send you somebody up. Yeah. So it's, you know, yeah, absolutely. And this is kind of just
to kind of before we get to, Hey, something teachers could do, something teachers could,
our students could do. Let's get to, I was kind of thinking about this like exactly,
you know, how many we talked about 10,046, the number of band books, but like which States

(01:05:48):
done. So we're going to do our, you know, kind of look into our pop catalog pop quiz.
Oh, no. You know what this made me think of? I was sitting here, I was sitting there, I
was sitting there thinking about this and it made me think of Indiana Jones. I'm going
to do my best Sean Connery voice where his dad goes, well, maybe you should have been
reading books instead of boarding them. You're like that, you know, a little Sean Connery,
but and I was thinking, I was looking around and I saw this amazing at pop catalogs, amazing

(01:06:13):
a temple of doom poster that they have beautiful. That's a great, that's one of the coolest
indie pictures. So, you know, pop catalog.com, you have original movie posters, systems,
collectibles. You get that almost anything there. Go over to our friends at pop catalog.com
and elevate your collection. You know, Spielberg said, man, the best thing to come out of that

(01:06:35):
movie was that he met his wife. That's awesome. And he liked the sounds that one man. He doesn't
know. That's crazy. He doesn't like that. I mean, it's I rewatch it lately. It's wild.
It's it's wild, but better than I thought. She'll monkey brain. Yeah, that movie's wild,
man. Yeah, it was a guy pulls a beating heart out of a dude's chest. He really did. Kids
were in the theater, man. And like 1984, what you call him? Dr. Jones. I love short round.

(01:06:58):
He's a great character. And now being in everything, everywhere. Great. Great actors in there. So
our pop catalog pop quiz of the day. All right. So here's a question. All right. Which state
has the most book bands from 2023 to 2024? Is it a Tennessee? Is it B Florida? Is it

(01:07:19):
C Iowa or D Ohio? Most book bands. I'm going low hanging fruit here, man. I'm going low
hanging fruit. I'm not going to overthink this one. Florida, you are correct. Yes. Three
for three. I'm on fire. Wow. It is Florida. So Florida from 2023 to 2024, they banned
4561 books with Iowa coming in second. All right. Back from our pop catalog pop quiz.

(01:07:50):
So Florida winning. Great job. You're on fire with the most book books band. So now let's
talk about, OK, so we've talked about all of the things that are going on. What are
book bands? Some of the players in there and curriculum changes. Why we do it. What can
affect students and teachers? So let's do a little call to action. Let's move forward
here. So how can we empower educators? We did a little bit of this already. So first

(01:08:11):
way I think, especially like you said, is one, be aware of this. Just be aware of the
controversial topics. Keep an eye on it. You know, stay abreast of the information. Don't
hide from it. I know it stinks just hearing all this negative stuff about education, but
stay on top of it. That way you can understand and communicate with your administrators.

(01:08:32):
You know, even if you really want to, I know sometimes it's scary because it's like, oh,
I really need to teach this, but I don't want a bunch of flack on the front end. But you
can even send home a, hey, we're covering, especially for younger groups. I think in
high school it's a little different. But if you're covering something in like sixth,
seventh grade that could be a little, you know, a little scary, send a letter home.
Back to prevention. Yeah. Prevention. Yeah. Send a little letter home and say, hey, we're

(01:08:55):
covering this. Get it on the front end.
And because I think a big part of this too is how publicized it is. You're starting to
get more and more, you get the personal opinions of some people are very passionate about the
way they feel, especially about certain things. We're talking about LBG, LBGT. I've just
screwed that up. Yeah. LBGTQ plus areas. And some people have very hot opinions there.

(01:09:23):
And if you do have to talk about something like that, you know, now with it being so
publicized individual people feel like, oh, I can just, I don't want my kid hearing that.
And I don't think anybody else should. And I feel that's more that they're, they're more
willing to be out there and say stuff, to call principals and whatnot, or to talk about
their kids, why you shouldn't be learning that. And the kid comes in and feels something.

(01:09:45):
So just prevention. Like do that. Also, you know, when there's banned books and topics,
there's, you know, you could have a little bit of a thing called protest pedagogy, where
you literally, if it's banned, you're not using it in class, but encourage your, your
students do outside research, you know, to look things up, to say, Hey, these are some
of the issues, look into them, you know, talk about it. If you have a question, I'll, I'll

(01:10:08):
guide you through it. Ask your parents about it. I think a lot of times if we, some teachers
fear parental involvement in the fact that if they know what I'm doing, it can turn negative.
But if you say, Hey, ask your parents about it, like talk to them about it, then you're,
they're feeling included in the learning. Yeah. And there's two things I wanted to speak
to on what you said. And both are as the role of teacher, you know, teachers are constantly

(01:10:34):
and rightly so fighting to be perceived as professionals. Right? So I think, cause I
do believe teachers are professionals. Um, I think as part of your professional responsibility,
you have to stay current on things. Yes. Which is what you were talking about earlier. I
mean, that is part of your professional responsibility. Being at the very least, being the no, I know

(01:10:59):
what's going on. I know about this particular bill, which is impacting my job. And here's
some of the nuances. I mean, I, I understand, I'm aware, I'm up to speed on it. I think
that's part of your professional responsibility. The other piece is teachers perceived as experts.
Yeah. Right. So, and I think, man, if you're asking most teachers want to be perceived

(01:11:20):
as experts, but then when you get into this kind of teaching and learning, this kind of
nuance, historical perspective and impacts, it's like, am I, am I the expert? So, you
know, it does become this kind of double edged sword, if you will, and almost don't want

(01:11:41):
to own the expert label at that point. Hey, I'm just, don't shoot the messenger. Right.
They said teach this. I taught it. That's right. So we do have to find this kind of
balance, man. And I think it goes back to those prevention strategies of getting everybody
on board, your administrative team, alerting parents of this very sensitive hot button
topic that's going to be covered, touched upon whatever depth you're going into. And

(01:12:04):
here's how I'm going to be facilitating it. But I'm not in this case, the expert imposing
my own subjective beliefs and views on what's happening. I am just the vessel here to communicate
this bit of teaching and learning. I'm just trying to, they need to learn this. That's
so easier said than done, dude. It is. Because it's still art and science and teaching. This

(01:12:25):
whole thing's murky because you just never know. And all it takes, we all know this,
all it takes is one person from the community, one parent to kind of, everybody else might
be cool with it. But if they're the vocal minority, they're screaming. And they bark
the loudest. Yeah, they do. And so that's the thing. So I think another thing you do
with your students, another thing we can do is important of fostering critical thinking

(01:12:46):
and open dialogue in the classroom. Let the students know, hey, we're talking about this
subject. It's a little tough. Nobody's trying to change your thinking. I'm very open. It's
like, look, I'm not trying to make you think anything differently. I'm giving you all the
facts you can think. So you can make that opinion. And I think that's really important
because if the students feel, again, kids have a amazing authenticity detector, right?

(01:13:12):
It's just in their brain. It's helped protect them. It's neurological that they have that.
And if they know like, he's not, nobody's trying to like make me think he's just there
and giving me this information. They will quickly start to quell any problems. Like
parents says something, no, no, it's not like that. Or principals says, which is back to
my point, man, if you don't have the capacity to run this kind of lesson and what you say

(01:13:37):
is true, that students have this amazing authenticity detector, bro, it's over before it starts.
Want a good thing for teachers? This is where lean on your teaching communities, right?
Go to the other teachers and be like, Hey, what do you do here? Great point. Right. Get
together. Don't be over in a corner, nervous and scared about teaching this. And then you

(01:14:01):
go do it and it goes bad. And you're like, ah, and then you have to do it all alone.
Go to it, make a plan, straight, a group strength of this or strength of PLCs comes in, you
know, your professional learning community. My wife at her school, she has a great PLC
team, good bonds, great sharing strategies, but then also, you know, your, your network,
right? Your social media network, your blue sky folks, your ex folks. Yeah. I mean, lean

(01:14:23):
on those people for ideas and proactive, you know, tactics to get in front of these things.
Yeah. Use the tools that are out there and talk that way. If all of you in your school
building, let's say, yo, you're an English department, your history department, everybody
knows what you're doing. Everybody kind of has the same little plan there. It's harder
to come after all of you. Yeah. It's for teachers in this strength and numbers. We, as the group

(01:14:45):
of teachers decided this is what we're doing. And as an administrator, a parent's angry.
You go, well, our entire English department decided to do it this way. They have over
a hundred years of teaching experience. Yeah. And that's just being smart, being lockstep
with your team, especially you're like a grade level band. So you're teaching it one way,
but teacher X is teaching it a totally different way, but same grade level man. Then you've

(01:15:08):
got man, that's room for grounds for argument, you know, but it's not being done like that
over here. In fact, it's a totally different perspective. Exactly. Man, then you're going
to run into trouble and you might find when you're in that group, you might find a perspective
different years that you're now engaging with prior to, and that in theory should sharpen

(01:15:29):
the lesson. Yeah. Right. So now you're like, Oh, so you push and pull this. And that allows
you to like even have that perspective, maybe change yours a little bit. Yeah. Let's make
sure it's less biased because of what I'm hearing right here. Yeah. So those, those
kind of, those kinds of conversations, critical conversations are key for these kinds of lessons.
Yeah. Last couple, it's kind of my pie pie in the sky idea. I think it's an awesome idea

(01:15:50):
to have like banned book parent clubs, like, you know, to the community engagement, like
schools do this. I know you probably get like, you know, you wouldn't probably get all the
segments of parents and community people you'd want to actually come here. This, but you
know, outside of school hours, no students involved. Hey, this is a book that's controversial.
Let's go through some parts and see how I talk about it and see what you feel and then

(01:16:13):
get that kind of feedback of what they're feeling. I think that really kind of grows
it closer because it makes it less scary. It's like this boogeyman. Um, and finally
stay informed, right? Like again, we talked about this a little bit, know some of these
groups that are keeping up on this. It's a lot to go through. I get it. The last thing
we want is like pour through, like what's happening with all this. You're searching
the internet, but there are certain groups like pen America, uh, as a group of authors

(01:16:35):
who are against this, the, uh, unite against book bands as a group, the ACLU, all these
things you can look and they inform educators and people of some of these censorship changes.
Uh, and just knowing is good because now you can be aware of what's happening. Uh, and
you know, we also have to fight for our, uh, we have to fight for our profession and fight
for what we do and staying informed is a big part of that. So I think that's a really interesting,

(01:16:59):
uh, and good thing as you're like, we're kind of going forward, stay informed. Don't be,
don't be surprised by any of this. Know that way you can react and again, prevention, French
is the whole thing. Prevention is the best medicine. So, uh, I think what an episode.
I mean, that's just, it's a lot. It's so much, we could talk about this for hours upon hours.
It's heavy, but it's important. Um, it's an issue that's not going away, you know, anytime

(01:17:21):
soon. So the more practical strategies, the better understanding, you know, that we all
have, I mean, all stakeholders on what's really happening. And I mean, really like what's
the truth behind a lot of these accusations that are just being spewed from both sides.
What's really going on in the classroom? How are kids really being affected by this? How

(01:17:43):
are they really embracing or not embracing any and all of this I think is very relevant
all in all, man. And I'm going to go back to your kind of historical perspective. This
is nothing new, right? It's a, you know, interesting, albeit chaotic time, but you know, I still
love that Chinese philosophy, man, on danger, you know, dangerous chaos meets opportunity.

(01:18:08):
So there's opportunity in here, man. There just is, and we have to keep having these
kinds of conversations, keep sifting through that rubble at times, you know, looking for
these pieces of opportunity, man, they're going to change things. Yeah, absolutely.
I do love that quote and a danger is my middle name, you know, a little, uh, time to go out
there, but I'm tired from thinking about it because it is so much like it just kind of

(01:18:32):
bleh, where's that, but I'm also invigorated by this because think about the force for
good that educators, administrators and parents can be when they unite to benefit frankly,
our most precious resource, which is students, you know, and that's the thing here is like
all of us together getting, uh, you know, getting together and making sure that we're,

(01:18:54):
you know, doing this the right way. So, you know, thank you everybody for joining us here
on educational warfare, banning books and limiting curriculum, uh, has been a battle.
Like we talked about, it's been waged for many years, uh, and one that we're going to
keep fighting against, uh, and here in educational warfare, we will continue to discuss, debate
and bring that radical candor we talk about, uh, and the truth to the issue. So, you know,

(01:19:17):
send us your stories of students, uh, strategies to deal with this experiences with this. And
again, if you just want to vent about it and, and tell us how you feel, uh, email us at
educational warfare.pod at gmail.com. And again, follow us on exit edu warfare, blue
sky, dr laura.beast guy social and subscribe to our YouTube channel, educational warfare

(01:19:39):
to catch all of our videos, shorts and anything else we may do. So thank you to our team,
Tom roof and Matt path. And for dr Ryan Jackson, I'm dr Jordan lower saying thank you for watching
and listening and thank you for being a part of the fight.

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The Curriculum Wars - Who Decides?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Curriculum Wars - Who Decides?