February 19, 2026 • 43 mins
During this insightful episode of EDVIEW360, literacy expert Dr. Antonio Fierro joins us to unpack the critical role of Multi-Tiered System of Supports (MTSS) frameworks in ensuring explicit, Structured Literacy instruction reaches every learner. Dr. Fierro provides a clear, operational definition of language and explains the importance of embedding oracy across all language systems and across all tiers of instruction. His perspective highlights why collaboration between language and literacy is not optional—it is foundational to building equitable systems that serve all students.
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of how Structured Literacy can be implemented with fidelity across Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 instruction, and why oracy, when intentionally embedded, is foundational to reading proficiency. With a special emphasis on English learners, Dr. Fierro challenges educators to rethink how language and literacy intersect, and how intentional, evidence-based practices can transform outcomes for diverse classrooms.
What You’ll Learn
- How a clear, operational definition of language strengthens MTSS by promoting coherence and consistency across Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 instruction
- Why oracy must be intentionally embedded across language systems and instructional tiers, rather than treated as a standalone or developmental component
- How Structured Literacy instruction, when aligned with oracy, better supports reading proficiency—particularly for English learners
- Practical ways educators can foster meaningful collaboration between language and literacy to improve outcomes for all students
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Narrator (00:00):
Welcome to Edview 360.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (00:05):
What happens, if what I've been
after, and if you go back andthink about my journey through
this career, it has been aboutprofessional development.
It has been about teaching.
I am in my element when Iteach.
So, as I worked with Luisa andall my colleagues, it wasn't
about presenting information astoday.
(00:26):
It's not about presentinginformation, it's about
teaching, right?
It's about teaching.
And I will always state theimportance of a knowledge base
that we possess as educators.
That is the silver bullet.
That is the magic formula.
We keep on saying there is nosilver bullet.
There's no magic.
Yes, there is.
(00:47):
It is the teacher.
It is the teacher.
Narrator (00:52):
You just heard from renowned literacy expert Dr.
Antonio Fierro.
Dr.
Fierro is our podcast guesttoday on Edview360.
Pam Austin (01:05):
Hello, this is Pam Austin.
Welcome back to the Edview360podcast series.
We are thrilled to have youwith us today for another
engaging literacy conversation.
I'm conducting today's podcastfrom my native New Orleans,
Louisiana.
Today's episode, MTSSMulti-Tiered System of Supports,
(01:26):
Ensuring Structured LiteracyAcross All Tiers and the
Importance of Oral Language,features a distinguished guest
whose work has shaped literacyinstruction across the country.
We are honored to welcome Dr.
Antonio Fierro, a nationalrecognized literacy expert,
author, and educator whose workhas significantly shaped
(01:47):
literacy practices and policiesacross the country.
Dr.
Fierro is the author of El Murode Sonigos Idelatio, co-author
of Kids Lips, and a visitingsenior fellow at the Science of
Reading Center in Suni, NewPalas.
For nearly two decades, he waspart of the National Letters
Cohorts led by Dr.
(02:08):
Luisa Motes, supportingeducators and implementing
evidence-based literacyinstruction.
His expertise spans classroompractice, educator preparation,
and national policy with aspecial focus on improving
outcomes for English learners.
Beyond his professionalaccomplishments, Dr.
(02:28):
Fiat brings a deeply personalcommitment to his work as both
an English learner himself andthe father of a child with
dyslexia.
His voice is one of clarity,compassion, and urgency in
advancing structured literacyfor all students.
Let's get started.
Welcome, Dr.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (02:46):
Fiero.
Oh, Pam, thank you so much.
It's great to see you, and it'sgreat to be with all of you
this uh today.
I'm not sure whether it's goingto be this afternoon or this
morning, right?
Pam Austin (02:57):
Today is the day, Antonio.
Could you start by sharing yourjourney as both an educator and
as an English learner and howthat shaped your passion for
literacy?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (03:11):
Sure, absolutely.
Yeah, first and foremost, oncean English learner, always an
English learner.
And it was because of having toadd English to my linguistic
repertoire that I fell in lovewith language, period, and all
the nuances of my own heritagelanguage of Spanish.
(03:31):
And then how does English work?
And I think it all really beganvery early on when I did have
some wonderful teachers inelementary, in my elementary
grades that brought language tolife.
And I think that's been mymantra.
And I keep on saying this overand over again that we live in
the language laboratory.
We are surrounded by oralexpression.
(03:53):
We are surrounded by writtenexpression as well.
I mean, language is alive andwell.
And you know what?
So our viewers were with us alittle while ago, but you
yourself invented a new word aswe were getting ready.
So it's just magnificent how wehave this wonderful gift of
(04:14):
language.
And it's uniquely human.
And here, I mean, it's aperfect example.
You kind of invented a new wordjust a few minutes ago.
And we have that, right?
We're always creating andexploring and discovering
language.
But let me tell you, what ledme to education was really
interesting.
(04:35):
I was with the Department ofJustice, and it was through an
assignment that I had with themback with, well, without getting
into specifics, but just anassignment then had with the
Department of Justice that I gotto see and partake in the
learning experience of inmateswho were probably reading at
(04:56):
about a second or third gradelevel.
And this was as an officer.
I won't go into details.
But I got to see theconsequences of not being able
to read and write, beingilliterate.
And I will never say that alife of crime is the way out,
but when all the doors closebecause you can't read or write,
(05:18):
then that's the reality issometimes.
I mean, that you might not haveany other choice.
And that's not the way itshould be.
It's not the way it no, itcan't be that way.
And at that point in time, Iknew that I have tremendous
respect for my brothers andsisters in law enforcement.
And I knew that I had to be atthe other end.
(05:39):
And rather than be at thereactive stage of what had
happened with individuals whomay be illiterate, I had to be
proactive.
And that's when I got intoeducation and went back to
school.
So I I went from carryingweapons to carrying, and I'm
really aging myself, right?
Carrying weapons to carryingchalk and erasers and knowing
(06:01):
all that.
Pam Austin (06:02):
But before they fall, right?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (06:06):
And wouldn't you know that then many years
later, I have a son who's born,and we noticed that early on
there was some language delays.
And yeah, so one thing led toanother, and we know that
dyslexia is a language-baseddisability.
And so those were the first redflags.
And Antonio Jr.
doesn't, and we call him AJ, hedoesn't mind me talking about
(06:28):
that because he has become hisown advocate, his own best
advocate.
And now he's in his finalsemester at Texas Tech
University in Lubbock, Texas.
And I'll tell you, I will singthe praises of that university
for so many reasons.
And primarily the biggestreason is that they have a
program that is designedspecifically for students with
(06:51):
dyslexia.
And they provide the scaffolds,the supports, the
interventions, the tutoring.
And I'll tell you, Texas Tech,I'm so, so indebted to what you
have done for my son and formany other students who struggle
with literacy.
So yeah, so it was meant to be.
It was meant to be.
Pam Austin (07:09):
All of these experiences within the world,
within the language lab, right?
Exactly.
Really shapes us and puts us ina certain direction.
We've heard you mention thatyou shared a moment with a
campus leader, right?
In a literacy coach.
It became a turning point foryou.
So you kind of gave us yourjourney.
(07:30):
But when is this turning point?
What did that moment reveal toyou about what do we still need
in the field?
What's missing in the field?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (07:38):
Exactly.
It was just one of many turningpoints, Pam, that I I was so
incredibly uh blessed to havehad over two decades worth of
learning and mentoring by theone and only Louisa Motz, right?
And my wonderful colleagues aswell.
(07:59):
And we still collaborate onsome projects to this day.
But anyway, so you know, I'vebeen involved in the psychology
of reading, really, which iswhat we learned and prior to
calling in the science ofreading, that really did include
all the other systems as well,or all the other fields of
neuroscience, for example, andpsychology and so forth.
(08:20):
So we're in this our in our ownlittle world, right, of
literacy, and you thinkeverybody knows this.
And if I say this one moretime, people are gonna say, oh,
Antonio, please move on.
But uh, and this was just a fewmonths ago.
I was having, and I write aboutit in my uh blog, I was having
(08:42):
a conversation with a colleagueof mine who I've known for many
years as well, who has just beenappointed as a principal at a
charter school.
And though he has lots ofexperience in administration, it
was more of a support role.
So his background is waslimited when it came to the
science or the psychology ofreading.
But anyway, I met with him andhis campus reading coach because
(09:06):
the literacy skills, thereading scores were incredibly
low.
And when I started talkingabout questioning and talking
about, well, how are theseelements of language taught
throughout the day?
And what are the principles inwhich you the principles
P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E, right?
That these elements of languageare being taught.
(09:29):
What tell me about that?
So I was referring tostructured literacy, right?
This approach of how we'regoing to be teaching the
science, right?
The how and then the what, ofcourse.
And then got into the elementsof language.
What about phonology?
What about morphology and or anorthography?
Anyway, I had this blank starefrom both of them.
And then I realized thatsomehow or the other they were
(09:54):
still at the beginning of theirjourney to try to understand
what literacy was all about,which is was I'm not judging.
I was surprised because we hadspoken about it.
Oh, I had, so many of us have,right?
And somehow or the other, westill have we have members of
our field.
We have colleagues in the fieldwho still do not understand the
(10:16):
elements of language, right?
The elements that make up thislanguage laboratory we live in,
and then let alone how theprinciples of delivering the
instruction that embeds theseelements of language.
There was no understanding ofthat yet, and or limited
(10:36):
understanding.
And the other thing thatworried me tremendously was the
fact that this charter schoolhad like 80%, 90% EL population
was very large.
And all kids, right?
All students throughout thegrade levels need these
principles of structuredliteracy.
You know, we need to understandthis as educators.
(10:59):
The how, the explicitness ofthe instruction, the data-driven
essence of the instruction, thescaffolding, the multimodal
levels of the instruction.
But that's the how.
But we were still missing theother areas too, the elements of
language.
And that's where I was like,well, do let's talk about what
we mean by language altogether,and then let's talk about the
(11:21):
principles of delivering thatinstruction.
And so this is the foundation,Pam.
This is where it all begins,right?
So that was one of that, andthat's just kind of like, oh my
gosh, I need to define what do Imean by language?
And that was, can I mention onemore thing?
Sure.
So yeah, bring out the coffee.
I was at a session also thatwas a group of educators working
(11:47):
with entirely an Englishlearner population.
And I was talking aboutlanguage, and that's when I also
realized this was not not eventhat long ago either, that my
audience did not understand whatI meant by language.
And it was just orisy.
And yes, ORIC is incrediblyimportant.
It is the foundation, it is athread.
(12:08):
But when I'm and not but andwhen I'm talking about language,
I'm also talking about how doesthis or see, how does this
language then support theteaching of phonology?
How does this or see, how doesthis oral language support the
teaching of orthography?
How does this oral languagesupport the teaching of
morphology?
And this, Pam, it just excitesme.
(12:31):
And I hope that I know many ofmy colleagues of our colleagues
are also excited.
It it what it does is that themore that we know about how our
language works, the more we'reable to share about our
language, and the more that wehear, right, the production
being done by our students andexplaining their discovery and
(12:53):
their learning, it just instillsa level of curiosity and
wonderment about this languagelaboratory we live in.
All right, so awesome.
Pam Austin (13:06):
No, that's very exciting.
Well, my takeaway from justyour conversation here is all of
us are in a different place.
And even though there's so muchlanguage in regards to
structured literacy, and as yousaid, the psychology of reading,
we are all in a differentplace.
Even though it is surroundingus, we might not have had all
(13:27):
the opportunities to ingest.
And even though we've come along way in education, what I'm
hearing you say is we've got along way to go and we can't
assume anything, right?
At this point.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (13:40):
Exactly.
And although I spent many yearson teaching the basics of
literacy, you know, working withmy colleagues, Danielle
Thompson, Carol Tolman, MaryDogren, Louisa, right?
Judy Dotson.
We were teaching everythingthat we needed to know about
(14:00):
reading.
But there's more, I mean,that's it gets the ball rolling,
right?
But we need to go back andrevisit.
And you're right, Pam.
I mean, that's beautiful thatwe're all at a different state,
at a different area ofunderstanding, right?
Of delivering.
And we can't assume, Pam, thatwas so beautiful.
We can't assume that we're allat the same place.
(14:22):
And we have to have thatpatience and that understanding
that we are sometimes our thementors and the teachers to our
fellow colleagues.
And sometimes we need to beable to, not sometimes, many
times, but we have to explainwhat this essence is all about.
And it's not about learningthese and these all these areas
(14:43):
in silos.
It is about understanding howthey work in this language
laboratory of ours.
Pam Austin (14:49):
So the integration and the excitement that sounds
from your voice, too, right?
So knowing how language works,moving from a hearing it to
being able to make thoseconnections with structured
literacy.
You did a great job ofintegrating all that and kind of
introducing the idea and layingthe foundation for us.
You've also emphasizedsomething.
(15:09):
You emphasize the importance ofhaving clear operational
definitions, right?
For language to understand whythis is so critical for MTSS
while multi-tiered systems ofsupports.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (15:24):
Absolutely.
And especially, again, I alwayscome around and build in on
students who may have limitedvocabulary, our English
learners, are multilinguallearners, dialectal variations.
The bottom line, language,language, language, language.
What happened in this sessionwhen I was talking about
language, and that was just abig a hat for me when I was
(15:47):
talking to educators of ourEnglish learners and
multilingual learners at thisone district, was that when I
said language, it wasautomatically assumed that, or
they went straight to Orsi,right?
And yes, absolutely.
And you know what?
Let me just say one thing,though.
Let me just say one thing aboutOrsi.
Or see, Orcy, Orsi, becausethis is what we're gonna be
talking about and continuetalking about.
(16:07):
Or see is about learning totalk and then learning through
talk.
All right, so so I want to makesure that we start there
because it all begins with that,right?
That learning to talk, learningto speak, and then through
instruction, through experience,through involvement with
(16:31):
others, that this learning totalk then extends to learning
through talk.
So what I learned from thissession with these educators
working with ELs andmultilingual learners was that
they did not understand or Ifailed to explain what I meant
(16:56):
by language.
All right.
So so I'm going back to mybackground in linguistics and
talk about language function andlanguage form.
All right, language functionand language form.
So when we are talking aboutlanguage function, all right,
(17:17):
you know, what do students dowith language in order to
demonstrate their understandingof the content?
That's where I'm going withfunction, all right?
So it can be describing,summarizing, it can be
explaining, comparing, oh mygosh, analyzing, arguing.
I mean, there's got, you know,why are you communicating?
Why are we communicating?
That is the function.
(17:38):
And this is where ORC reallytakes off.
And this is where we have tohave that opportunity for
students to explain why they aremoving in this direction or
summarize what they justlistened to, because oral
language is about speaking andlistening, right?
So what is that function?
But that function, right,consists of oral and written
(18:00):
language, right?
I mean, you can either talkabout it or you can write about
it.
Now, the difference, obviously,is that written language
requires very explicitinstruction, right, on what is
that mapping between that soundor that phoneme and that
grapheme.
So language, I'm talking abouteither it can be either oral or
(18:20):
written, but the difference, ofcourse, is that written requires
that very expliciteness of howdo we map that phoneme, that
sound to a letter, to agrapheme, right?
And then written language isgonna be still embedded within
this oral language.
Still, oral language still isthe umbrella that's gonna cover
(18:42):
everything, all right?
And oral language also, ofcourse, I gotta describe it.
What's a function?
Describing, summarizing,explaining, right?
The difference, of course, isthat oral is gonna be that oral
discourse, the written languageis gonna be the writing, but
that's the function.
So I can have either I candescribe it, I can analyze it,
either orally or written.
Now, so that is fine.
(19:02):
I get it.
But language also has form.
And in this case, what I'mreferring to is so form would be
like the what of structuredliteracy.
So form would be would includethe phonology, for example, all
right?
So the morphology, thesemantics, the syntax, the
(19:25):
pragmatics, and then of course,in written language, the
orthography.
So it's in letter stands forlanguage essentials, right?
Well, those are the formlanguage form is made up of
these language essentials.
All right.
And so if I think aboutstructured literacy, all right,
and if I look at the one of thebest infographics that's out
(19:46):
there is the one that'spublished by IDA, that right has
structured literacy and it'skind of in the middle of this
infographic, and on one side ithas the what, on the other side
it has the how.
Well, the what is that languageform, right?
The phonology, the morphology,the syllable and stress
patterns, all the elements, theorthography, that is the what
(20:09):
language form, right?
But in that essence of the whatof structured literacy, you're
also talking about readingcomprehension and written
expression, right?
So it's all these elements,language form, all these
elements that make up the what.
And if I think about structuredliteracy and I think about the
infographic that IDA has, thehow is going to be really those
principles of how theinstruction is going to be
(20:32):
delivered.
So, and that that includes theexplicitness of it, right?
That excludes as I mentionedearlier, yeah, the delivery bit
based on data, data-driveninstruction.
So those all those areas, if Itake a look, the scaffolding
that's going to be required, ithas to be cumulative,
sequential.
So, so all that, the how reallyis how are you going to deliver
(20:54):
that.
And then the what is consistsof the language, the language
forms.
And when I'm talking about itbeing highly interactive, then
we're talking about the ORC andhow is ORIC built within.
And that has to be throughout.
It has to be throughout.
It has to be throughout.
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Pam Austin (21:41):
The interaction we're talking about from teacher
to student, from student tostudent, from student to
teacher.
And that helps to build all ofthat orisy that we're looking at
when we're thinking aboutfunction, how it's used.
Yeah, exactly.
And then in that form, all therules.
When I think about phonology,when I think about orthography,
(22:04):
so thinking about all the rulesand language, because they're
there.
Right.
We just have to teach themdirectly.
Yeah, yeah.
So you're right.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (22:09):
That is awesome.
The functional language isgoing to be done through the
oracle, primarily, right?
And then of course it's goingto be written expression.
I don't want, I don't want toforget about written expression,
but that could also be, but asyou're going through written
expression, I mean, some of thescaffolding that's going to be
provided is going to be whatoral discussion.
You know, how am I going tothink about that?
How am I going to put all theseideas onto paper?
(22:30):
And it's having that discussionwith my teacher, having
discussion with my peers.
What is the function?
All right.
And the ORC is the really thestarting area, right?
To be able to deliver that.
Yeah.
Pam Austin (22:42):
I say that oral language is setting them up for
success because then we can getto where we need them to be.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (22:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Going back to what you said, achatty classroom, right?
Is a learning classroom, right?
I remember that from years ago,right?
I but it's not just let me alsomention one thing, and I'm sure
you mean you've got this too.
I mean, it's not just about thequantity, right?
But it's the quality, right?
(23:10):
That productive sense.
What are you, how are youproducing these this discourse,
whether it's oral or written, itis the quality of it to begin
with, of oral, of oracy.
Absolutely.
It's not about quantity.
We do want quantity, but it'squality is what we're after.
Pam Austin (23:27):
Quality is what we're after.
Would you say that the idea ofthe quantity, I've got lots and
lots of language, is amisconception for oral
development?
Would that be somemisconceptions when we think
about literacy instruction?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (23:42):
Well, we definitely want that quantity,
right?
But it's not just, is thatgoing to be senseless?
Is that going to bemeaningless?
Yes, I want that opportunity.
But it's also, don't we have tobe able to teach what the
quality looks like?
And that would includepragmatics.
And that would include itincludes listening.
I mean, so it, yeah, so there'sa whole lot more.
(24:03):
We want that quantity, butthere's got to be quality
involved in there as well.
And that does include, though,that does include very explicit
instruction of I say something,you're going to listen, you're
going to process what I justsaid, and then you're going to
go ahead and either add to it oryou're going to perhaps go down
another area, but then stillprovide the support, or why are
(24:25):
you arguing my point?
Or why are you saying no, thisis different?
But you have that thatinteraction.
Pam Austin (24:31):
You know, you've talked about the language
laboratory.
You described that during thatintroduction.
In particular, for Englishlanguage learners, how important
is this?
How does that impact languageand literacy for them?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (24:45):
Well, you know what?
Let me go back.
I've always said that it is theteacher's knowledge base that's
going to make all thedifference in the world, right?
Because it is the teacher whois going to, you know, suddenly
present this wonderment aboutthis word or this wonderment
(25:06):
about this phrase or this idiom,this metaphor, whatever the
case may be.
So I so it is that level ofexpertise that the teacher
possesses.
And you know, well, we neverstop, right?
Because English, and especiallyEnglish, it's so vast.
There's so much, but it'sreally darn interesting.
And when you start looking atthe principles of how even
(25:26):
orthography works in English,the last thing I want is for any
of our colleagues to say, oh,you know what?
English is such a crazylanguage, so let's not even talk
about the spelling.
No, it's not.
It's pretty, it's prettyconsistent once we know this
principles of spelling, forexample.
And so getting back to youroriginal question, so we as
educators, we need to instillthat level of excitement, that
(25:51):
level of love for our language.
And oh, yes, I can explain whythis word sounds this way or why
it's spelled this way.
And if I don't know now, youknow, I mean, I can look it up,
I can ask my teacher, whateverthe case may be.
But language shouldn't be amystery.
Language is about wonder.
So it is very important.
But for all across the board,though, Pam, especially for
(26:13):
English learners who aremultilingual learners, because
they, you know what, we'remaking connections to our own
home language.
And sometimes there is noconnection, all right?
Sorry, all right.
Something is complete opposite.
But like, whoa, okay, allright.
But so I am building a newpathway, a new neuronal pathway,
(26:34):
right?
Because now I know what thatmeans, or I know what that's
like in my home language, butnow I need to have another lane
in my super reading highway thatI possess, right?
Add another lane of that, oh,well, you know what?
In my language, that phoneme isnever in the final position of
words.
But in English, it is.
(26:55):
So, oh, okay.
So now I have to add that laneof, okay, well, now I have to
know how to say that sound,especially in the final position
and so forth.
And then going back to youranother question that you had,
or what we were talking aboutbefore.
So it is about beingintentional about the oral
language, about the oracle.
And like, especially if we'reestablishing a wonderment.
(27:16):
Tell me why this is interestingto you.
What is this?
How does this compare to yourhome language?
How is this?
Tell me about it.
Let's talk about it, right?
So, a dear friend, Sonia Cabelland her colleague Trisha
Zucker, I believe, is that howyou pronounce her last name.
She they publish a book titledThe Strive for Five, and they
talk about that.
They talk about having theseconversations, and that's what
(27:39):
it's all about.
My dear colleague Judy Dotsonpublished years ago 50 Nifty
activities, and she actuallythen had another publication for
just specifically for orallanguage and how intentional we
must be.
So, am I explaining thewonderments of the language?
There's an opportunity forstudents to compare it to their
language, for example, and howis this different or the same?
(28:01):
How does it compare?
So we have these wonderfuldiscussions about this language
laboratory of ours.
Pam Austin (28:06):
I just love it.
The wonderment, the excitement.
I can see you're excited aboutwords, Antonio.
I am the discovery, thediscovery of word, building a
word sense, really understandingwords and being able to take it
apart and make comparisons.
I think it's wonderful.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (28:21):
What I say is that every word has a story
to tell.
All right.
Every word has a story to tell.
And what's really the nextlevel, though, is then having
students talk about that wordand that story and then compare
it to a home language if it's ifthey're an English learner, or
how does that extend?
Where do I see that prefix orthat suffix, for example, in
(28:44):
other words, or where do I seethe root in other words, and
then just keep on building onthat and working on that?
And finally, attention is beingplaced on the adolescent
struggling reader, right?
And adolescent literacy.
And yes, there's so much morethat needs to be taught because
now we're really talking aboutmore complex text, for example.
The bottom line, though, is Igo back to my days with the
(29:08):
Department of Justice, and herewere some grown men, right, who
were at the time we had a policythat if if the inmate had
entered the system without ahigh school diploma, they had to
leave with a GED.
Now, this was our medium tohigh, medium to low, high
(29:29):
security risks.
But the bottom line is that howcan they go after a GED if they
can't read?
And that's when NIVA was firstintroduced to the Wilson Reading
program, because that was whyit was developed.
It was developed for the olderstudents who were struggling.
But I got to witness thatteaching of how this system
(29:53):
works, and along with some goodphonemic awareness activities,
that back then I had no ideawhat that was all about.
But the bottom line though isyes, it was adolescent literacy.
It's a whole different, it'skind of a whole different
ballgame, but it's not, becausewe have to still ensure that
those foundational skills are inplace.
The challenge is that you can'tbe using the same type of
(30:16):
lesson, right, as you do a youngchild.
And then, of course, then it'salways how do you make the
connection or the gem to connectto text?
Because now I have to practicethat.
So bottom line is we still needto understand how our language
works.
Pam Austin (30:30):
Definitely.
Because age and size doesn'tmatter.
The need is still there.
Maybe the sophistication ofyour delivery might change a
little bit.
It does.
Because when we think about oldlanguage, right?
It's not just restricted to ourEnglish learners, it's not just
restricted to our strugglingreaders.
When we think about kids intier one, okay, then we have our
tier two, our tier three kids.
(30:51):
How do we incorporate for alllevels across the board?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (30:56):
A colleague of mine has always stated that
the one doing the talking isdoing the learning.
And that goes back to what Isaid earlier about ORC is about
learning to talk, but then itextends to ORC is about
learning, right?
Learning through talk.
So the principles still remainthe same, that it's not about
(31:18):
quantity, it's about quality.
And it is also about anunderstanding of what was I just
taught.
And through ORC, through thatoral discussion, it will help
concretize that principle orwhatever it was it that I was
taught.
So the principles of ORC andoral language is still
consistent.
And I think now we really dohave a challenge, a tremendous
(31:39):
challenge, that our students arenot, our kids are not talking.
Our kids have more limitedcommunication because of the
devices that they have in in infront of them.
And even my son will say that.
If I get on the bus to go toschool and it's full of
(32:00):
primarily students, no one istalking.
Everyone is in front of theirin in with their device.
There's no communication.
It is so hard to talk.
And so I need to understandthese levels of syntactic
awareness.
I need to know how words cometogether to make sense.
I need to be able tocommunicate.
(32:20):
I need to be able to ask.
I need to be able to explain.
So the principles of orallanguage are still intact.
It's still intact.
I am going to, as a teacher, Iam going to explain.
I have to explain thewonderments of the language.
But at the same time, though, Ineed to be able to allow
students to have the opportunityto now tell me about this
(32:40):
learning and tell me why this isimportant to you and tell me
where did you, where else do wesee this?
And tell me about how am Igoing to connect that to
whatever else else I'm reading.
And then, of course, then basedon whatever else I'm reading,
how does this gonna help me withreading comprehension?
So it's that talk, it's thattalk, it's that talk, but it's
gonna be guided.
It's not just turn to yourneighbor and turn to your
(33:01):
neighbor and tell him, or turnto your neighbor and explain why
you take the stabs, or turn toyour neighbor and explain and
tell your neighbor why this wasso so important to you, or why
this was like, oh, what a hamoment for you.
What did you learn about this,or why did you think that this
doesn't really help any?
But yeah, I think right now asa society, we are definitely
moving away from that oraldiscourse.
(33:22):
And I think a lot of it has todo because of what's what's in
front of us.
I was invited to do a keynotein Portland, Oregon.
And some other colleagues ofmine were there as well.
But at lunchtime, we ate in thestudent union, right?
So it was full, it was packed.
It was all kids.
They were all kids, right?
(33:43):
I was floored.
I felt like going up andhugging every one of them.
I stand there.
I like to stand when there's alarge gathering of folks and
seeing is there's any talking orare they communicating?
But I looked around, and youknow what, Pam?
I did not see a table with adevice.
They were laughing, they weretalking, it was loud as all get
(34:08):
out.
It was so loud, and I was sohappy.
I was so happy because it wasso loud.
And the only ones who were withtheir devices, they were
sitting alone or doing whateverthey were doing, but they were
now with the company.
But I was just so thrilled thathere we had young people who
were actually, they had, I mean,they weren't doing purposely,
(34:29):
but I don't think theyunderstand what they were doing,
but they were having thesewonderful conversations and you
know, having this is natural.
Pam Austin (34:36):
What you're talking about, what you're saying with
great oresy, I must admit, isthat we need to provide
intentional opportunities forlanguage instruction.
Those examples that you weregiving just a little while ago,
it always had a why to explain.
So by answering why, you'reexpounding upon what you've
(34:58):
learned and what you've known.
It's just not turn and talk,but turn and talk and explain
why a certain concept.
So that's a great way ofactually incorporating that,
right?
Very intentional.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (35:10):
I just love those ideas that you're and I've
had some colleagues also when Ivisit campuses and visit
classrooms who told me, you knowwhat, I have to model, Antonio,
how to have this conversation.
Because even if I say turn andtalk, they're like, okay.
Yes.
Talk about what?
You just learned about.
So let me model for you.
(35:31):
And so it goes back to early onin our conversation panel,
we're talking about, or youmentioned we can't assume, and
it's the same thing now withoral language.
But do you remember those dayswhen we used to dialogic talk,
reading, dialogic reading,Socratic questioning?
I mean, we kind of got awayfrom that.
And I've seen some publicationsthat have said that we got away
(35:54):
from all that talk because westarted concentrating on
foundational skills.
Okay, well, I don't know, butwhy can't we concentrate on
foundational skills and talkabout them and explain and have
this discussion?
I mean, that's what it's allabout.
And of course, with explicitinstruction of how that
conversation is gonna go withthe levels of I speak, as I
(36:15):
mentioned earlier, you're gonnalisten, and then you're gonna go
ahead and add to it.
There's gonna be a level ofrespect, or and even say, hey,
you know what?
I'll I hear what you're saying,but I disagree because of blah,
blah, blah, blah, because ofthis, and being able to honor
each other's level of commitmentand understanding of on a
certain topic and be respectfulof it.
Now you're talking about socialand emotional aspects.
Exactly.
Pam Austin (36:35):
It leads, but it's all connected, isn't it?
It's the idea of modeling it sothat students understand what
the expectations are.
What do we mean by thisconversation?
Wouldn't that be a good way tomotivate and to engage
collaboration?
They have to see it, they haveto understand it, and we can
model that with great oresy.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (36:56):
Yeah, there's some frameworks and
models that are all across theworld.
The UK, and the only reason Ispeak about the UK is because my
brother actually lives inEurope, he lives in London and
is a school administrator.
And he talks about in the UK,they've been after ORISE for
quite some time now and theimportance of it.
And we were talking about thiscertain topic, and he's like,
(37:18):
there's certain aspects.
There's this physical aspect,the linguistic aspect, the
cognitive, and then the socialand emotional.
The social and emotional.
And that's what we were justaddressing right now, right?
Being able to speak withconfidence and also realize that
you're going to be listened towith respect.
And so, what about the socialand emotional aspect of it's
(37:41):
great to talk about oracy,right?
And oral language and itsimpact on literacy, period.
Who can argue about that?
We need to also realize thatthis, as my brother said, the
social and emotional aspect ofwhat language can build for us,
this collaboration with others,being able to listen or having
folks listen and respond, butrespectfully, right?
(38:03):
And be able to speak with easeand confidence that you're not
going to be diminished, that youare going to be listened to.
And, you know, there's anawareness of what's going on.
Pam Austin (38:13):
All right.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
I do want to ask you something,get a little personal here.
So, as a both a researcher anda parent of a child with
dyslexia, you mentioned a littlebit about AJ.
How has your personalexperience influenced your
professional perception?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (38:29):
What happens, if what I've been
after, and if you go back andthink about my journey through
this career, it has been aboutprofessional development.
It has been about teaching.
I am in my element when Iteach.
So as I worked with Luisa andall my colleagues, it wasn't
(38:49):
about presenting information astoday.
It's not about presentinginformation, it's about
teaching, right?
It's about teaching.
And I will always state theimportance of a knowledge base
that we possess as educators.
That is the silver bullet.
That is the magic formula.
We keep on saying there is nosilver bullet.
(39:11):
There's no yes, there is.
It is the teacher.
It is the teacher.
I have a niece who juststarted.
I need to, yeah.
My niece just startedyesterday, it was her first day
as a SED teacher.
Her very first day.
And so we called her in themorning.
(39:31):
Hey, have a great day.
And then we checked with herlast night, and she was so
tired, so drained.
And I said, you know what?
Here's to the start of awonderful career.
And don't forget that you'realways a learner.
Just like you're always ateacher, you're always a
learner.
And so what I found was throughmy career that, especially with
(39:52):
the area of dyslexia, there'sjust so much awareness that
needs to be established.
There's so much learning thatare uh that we all must do.
We all have to, we all have to.
So as my career has grown andthrough the years, it's always
about learning.
And how do I better meet theneeds of my son?
And how do I help his teachersmeet his needs?
(40:16):
And then it was eventually, AJ,you have to become your own
advocate.
And he has become his ownadvocate.
But it is about how do I helpprepare the field?
Pam Austin (40:27):
Knowledge is the key.
I agree with you.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (40:30):
Yeah, it is.
It is.
And so as I was telling Aubrey,my niece, like, you know what?
You may be the last hope forsome of these kids, right?
And so you, especially you withthe special population that
you're gonna be working with,you have to know what is going
on.
So it's nonstop learning, anddon't ever forget that.
Pam Austin (40:52):
I was gonna ask you this question, and that might be
the answer, but I'm gonna askit anyway to see if you want to
add a little bit more to thatanswer.
Okay.
If you could lean educatorswith one key takeaway about
structured literacy and orallanguage, what would it be?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (41:07):
Ah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it is it is about reallyunderstanding the principles of
structured literacy, right?
The principles of structuredliteracy, the elements of
language.
Do remember that language isabout form, all these elements
that make language, but it'salso about function.
And what are you going to uselanguage for?
And just realize that, yes, Iknow.
(41:28):
I mean, yes, it's thechallenges that educators have
now is the challenges areamazing.
But just always be open tolearning and to moving forward.
So yeah, that adding to theknowledge base is key.
Pam Austin (41:43):
Dr.
Fierra, I want to thank you forsharing your expertise, your
personal insights, and yourunwavering commitment to
ensuring that every student hasaccess to high-quality literacy
instruction.
But your work reminds us thatlanguage and literacy are
inseparable.
That's definitely a truth.
Yeah.
And dating oracle across alltiers is so essential.
(42:03):
Yep.
And it's needed for a success.
So, to our listeners, we hopetoday's FU360 conversation
inspires you to reflect on yourown practices and to take
actionable steps toward buildingclassrooms where all students
can thrive as readers andlearners.
I wanted to remind ourlisteners to subscribe to our
(42:23):
FU360 Thought Leadership Programat VoidYourSopers.com slash
EU360.
Subscribers receive advancednotice of our webinars,
podcasts, and blogs.
Each one will introduce you tothe most respected thought
leaders in education, and eachprogram will enrich your
instruction.
Subscribe today.
(42:45):
Well, that's it for anothergreat EVU360 podcast.
Please join us again next monthand visit VoyagerSopras.com
slash Edview to learn about ourwebinars, blogs, and other
podcasts.
This has been Pam Austin, andwe hope to see you again soon.
Narrator (43:04):
This has been an Edview 360 podcast.
For additionalthought-provoking discussions,
sign up for our blog, webinar,and podcast series at Voyager
Sopras.com/slash Edview360.
If you enjoyed the show, we'dlove a five star review wherever
you listen to podcasts and tohelp other people like you find
(43:27):
our show.
Thank you.
Welcome to Edview 360.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (00:05):
What happens, if what I've been
after, and if you go back andthink about my journey through
this career, it has been aboutprofessional development.
It has been about teaching.
I am in my element when Iteach.
So, as I worked with Luisa andall my colleagues, it wasn't
about presenting information astoday.
(00:26):
It's not about presentinginformation, it's about
teaching, right?
It's about teaching.
And I will always state theimportance of a knowledge base
that we possess as educators.
That is the silver bullet.
That is the magic formula.
We keep on saying there is nosilver bullet.
There's no magic.
Yes, there is.
(00:47):
It is the teacher.
It is the teacher.
Narrator (00:52):
You just heard from renowned literacy expert Dr.
Antonio Fierro.
Dr.
Fierro is our podcast guesttoday on Edview360.
Pam Austin (01:05):
Hello, this is Pam Austin.
Welcome back to the Edview360podcast series.
We are thrilled to have youwith us today for another
engaging literacy conversation.
I'm conducting today's podcastfrom my native New Orleans,
Louisiana.
Today's episode, MTSSMulti-Tiered System of Supports,
(01:26):
Ensuring Structured LiteracyAcross All Tiers and the
Importance of Oral Language,features a distinguished guest
whose work has shaped literacyinstruction across the country.
We are honored to welcome Dr.
Antonio Fierro, a nationalrecognized literacy expert,
author, and educator whose workhas significantly shaped
(01:47):
literacy practices and policiesacross the country.
Dr.
Fierro is the author of El Murode Sonigos Idelatio, co-author
of Kids Lips, and a visitingsenior fellow at the Science of
Reading Center in Suni, NewPalas.
For nearly two decades, he waspart of the National Letters
Cohorts led by Dr.
(02:08):
Luisa Motes, supportingeducators and implementing
evidence-based literacyinstruction.
His expertise spans classroompractice, educator preparation,
and national policy with aspecial focus on improving
outcomes for English learners.
Beyond his professionalaccomplishments, Dr.
(02:28):
Fiat brings a deeply personalcommitment to his work as both
an English learner himself andthe father of a child with
dyslexia.
His voice is one of clarity,compassion, and urgency in
advancing structured literacyfor all students.
Let's get started.
Welcome, Dr.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (02:46):
Fiero.
Oh, Pam, thank you so much.
It's great to see you, and it'sgreat to be with all of you
this uh today.
I'm not sure whether it's goingto be this afternoon or this
morning, right?
Pam Austin (02:57):
Today is the day, Antonio.
Could you start by sharing yourjourney as both an educator and
as an English learner and howthat shaped your passion for
literacy?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (03:11):
Sure, absolutely.
Yeah, first and foremost, oncean English learner, always an
English learner.
And it was because of having toadd English to my linguistic
repertoire that I fell in lovewith language, period, and all
the nuances of my own heritagelanguage of Spanish.
(03:31):
And then how does English work?
And I think it all really beganvery early on when I did have
some wonderful teachers inelementary, in my elementary
grades that brought language tolife.
And I think that's been mymantra.
And I keep on saying this overand over again that we live in
the language laboratory.
We are surrounded by oralexpression.
(03:53):
We are surrounded by writtenexpression as well.
I mean, language is alive andwell.
And you know what?
So our viewers were with us alittle while ago, but you
yourself invented a new word aswe were getting ready.
So it's just magnificent how wehave this wonderful gift of
(04:14):
language.
And it's uniquely human.
And here, I mean, it's aperfect example.
You kind of invented a new wordjust a few minutes ago.
And we have that, right?
We're always creating andexploring and discovering
language.
But let me tell you, what ledme to education was really
interesting.
(04:35):
I was with the Department ofJustice, and it was through an
assignment that I had with themback with, well, without getting
into specifics, but just anassignment then had with the
Department of Justice that I gotto see and partake in the
learning experience of inmateswho were probably reading at
(04:56):
about a second or third gradelevel.
And this was as an officer.
I won't go into details.
But I got to see theconsequences of not being able
to read and write, beingilliterate.
And I will never say that alife of crime is the way out,
but when all the doors closebecause you can't read or write,
(05:18):
then that's the reality issometimes.
I mean, that you might not haveany other choice.
And that's not the way itshould be.
It's not the way it no, itcan't be that way.
And at that point in time, Iknew that I have tremendous
respect for my brothers andsisters in law enforcement.
And I knew that I had to be atthe other end.
(05:39):
And rather than be at thereactive stage of what had
happened with individuals whomay be illiterate, I had to be
proactive.
And that's when I got intoeducation and went back to
school.
So I I went from carryingweapons to carrying, and I'm
really aging myself, right?
Carrying weapons to carryingchalk and erasers and knowing
(06:01):
all that.
Pam Austin (06:02):
But before they fall, right?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (06:06):
And wouldn't you know that then many years
later, I have a son who's born,and we noticed that early on
there was some language delays.
And yeah, so one thing led toanother, and we know that
dyslexia is a language-baseddisability.
And so those were the first redflags.
And Antonio Jr.
doesn't, and we call him AJ, hedoesn't mind me talking about
(06:28):
that because he has become hisown advocate, his own best
advocate.
And now he's in his finalsemester at Texas Tech
University in Lubbock, Texas.
And I'll tell you, I will singthe praises of that university
for so many reasons.
And primarily the biggestreason is that they have a
program that is designedspecifically for students with
(06:51):
dyslexia.
And they provide the scaffolds,the supports, the
interventions, the tutoring.
And I'll tell you, Texas Tech,I'm so, so indebted to what you
have done for my son and formany other students who struggle
with literacy.
So yeah, so it was meant to be.
It was meant to be.
Pam Austin (07:09):
All of these experiences within the world,
within the language lab, right?
Exactly.
Really shapes us and puts us ina certain direction.
We've heard you mention thatyou shared a moment with a
campus leader, right?
In a literacy coach.
It became a turning point foryou.
So you kind of gave us yourjourney.
(07:30):
But when is this turning point?
What did that moment reveal toyou about what do we still need
in the field?
What's missing in the field?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (07:38):
Exactly.
It was just one of many turningpoints, Pam, that I I was so
incredibly uh blessed to havehad over two decades worth of
learning and mentoring by theone and only Louisa Motz, right?
And my wonderful colleagues aswell.
(07:59):
And we still collaborate onsome projects to this day.
But anyway, so you know, I'vebeen involved in the psychology
of reading, really, which iswhat we learned and prior to
calling in the science ofreading, that really did include
all the other systems as well,or all the other fields of
neuroscience, for example, andpsychology and so forth.
(08:20):
So we're in this our in our ownlittle world, right, of
literacy, and you thinkeverybody knows this.
And if I say this one moretime, people are gonna say, oh,
Antonio, please move on.
But uh, and this was just a fewmonths ago.
I was having, and I write aboutit in my uh blog, I was having
(08:42):
a conversation with a colleagueof mine who I've known for many
years as well, who has just beenappointed as a principal at a
charter school.
And though he has lots ofexperience in administration, it
was more of a support role.
So his background is waslimited when it came to the
science or the psychology ofreading.
But anyway, I met with him andhis campus reading coach because
(09:06):
the literacy skills, thereading scores were incredibly
low.
And when I started talkingabout questioning and talking
about, well, how are theseelements of language taught
throughout the day?
And what are the principles inwhich you the principles
P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E, right?
That these elements of languageare being taught.
(09:29):
What tell me about that?
So I was referring tostructured literacy, right?
This approach of how we'regoing to be teaching the
science, right?
The how and then the what, ofcourse.
And then got into the elementsof language.
What about phonology?
What about morphology and or anorthography?
Anyway, I had this blank starefrom both of them.
And then I realized thatsomehow or the other they were
(09:54):
still at the beginning of theirjourney to try to understand
what literacy was all about,which is was I'm not judging.
I was surprised because we hadspoken about it.
Oh, I had, so many of us have,right?
And somehow or the other, westill have we have members of
our field.
We have colleagues in the fieldwho still do not understand the
(10:16):
elements of language, right?
The elements that make up thislanguage laboratory we live in,
and then let alone how theprinciples of delivering the
instruction that embeds theseelements of language.
There was no understanding ofthat yet, and or limited
(10:36):
understanding.
And the other thing thatworried me tremendously was the
fact that this charter schoolhad like 80%, 90% EL population
was very large.
And all kids, right?
All students throughout thegrade levels need these
principles of structuredliteracy.
You know, we need to understandthis as educators.
(10:59):
The how, the explicitness ofthe instruction, the data-driven
essence of the instruction, thescaffolding, the multimodal
levels of the instruction.
But that's the how.
But we were still missing theother areas too, the elements of
language.
And that's where I was like,well, do let's talk about what
we mean by language altogether,and then let's talk about the
(11:21):
principles of delivering thatinstruction.
And so this is the foundation,Pam.
This is where it all begins,right?
So that was one of that, andthat's just kind of like, oh my
gosh, I need to define what do Imean by language?
And that was, can I mention onemore thing?
Sure.
So yeah, bring out the coffee.
I was at a session also thatwas a group of educators working
(11:47):
with entirely an Englishlearner population.
And I was talking aboutlanguage, and that's when I also
realized this was not not eventhat long ago either, that my
audience did not understand whatI meant by language.
And it was just orisy.
And yes, ORIC is incrediblyimportant.
It is the foundation, it is athread.
(12:08):
But when I'm and not but andwhen I'm talking about language,
I'm also talking about how doesthis or see, how does this
language then support theteaching of phonology?
How does this or see, how doesthis oral language support the
teaching of orthography?
How does this oral languagesupport the teaching of
morphology?
And this, Pam, it just excitesme.
(12:31):
And I hope that I know many ofmy colleagues of our colleagues
are also excited.
It it what it does is that themore that we know about how our
language works, the more we'reable to share about our
language, and the more that wehear, right, the production
being done by our students andexplaining their discovery and
(12:53):
their learning, it just instillsa level of curiosity and
wonderment about this languagelaboratory we live in.
All right, so awesome.
Pam Austin (13:06):
No, that's very exciting.
Well, my takeaway from justyour conversation here is all of
us are in a different place.
And even though there's so muchlanguage in regards to
structured literacy, and as yousaid, the psychology of reading,
we are all in a differentplace.
Even though it is surroundingus, we might not have had all
(13:27):
the opportunities to ingest.
And even though we've come along way in education, what I'm
hearing you say is we've got along way to go and we can't
assume anything, right?
At this point.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (13:40):
Exactly.
And although I spent many yearson teaching the basics of
literacy, you know, working withmy colleagues, Danielle
Thompson, Carol Tolman, MaryDogren, Louisa, right?
Judy Dotson.
We were teaching everythingthat we needed to know about
(14:00):
reading.
But there's more, I mean,that's it gets the ball rolling,
right?
But we need to go back andrevisit.
And you're right, Pam.
I mean, that's beautiful thatwe're all at a different state,
at a different area ofunderstanding, right?
Of delivering.
And we can't assume, Pam, thatwas so beautiful.
We can't assume that we're allat the same place.
(14:22):
And we have to have thatpatience and that understanding
that we are sometimes our thementors and the teachers to our
fellow colleagues.
And sometimes we need to beable to, not sometimes, many
times, but we have to explainwhat this essence is all about.
And it's not about learningthese and these all these areas
(14:43):
in silos.
It is about understanding howthey work in this language
laboratory of ours.
Pam Austin (14:49):
So the integration and the excitement that sounds
from your voice, too, right?
So knowing how language works,moving from a hearing it to
being able to make thoseconnections with structured
literacy.
You did a great job ofintegrating all that and kind of
introducing the idea and layingthe foundation for us.
You've also emphasizedsomething.
(15:09):
You emphasize the importance ofhaving clear operational
definitions, right?
For language to understand whythis is so critical for MTSS
while multi-tiered systems ofsupports.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (15:24):
Absolutely.
And especially, again, I alwayscome around and build in on
students who may have limitedvocabulary, our English
learners, are multilinguallearners, dialectal variations.
The bottom line, language,language, language, language.
What happened in this sessionwhen I was talking about
language, and that was just abig a hat for me when I was
(15:47):
talking to educators of ourEnglish learners and
multilingual learners at thisone district, was that when I
said language, it wasautomatically assumed that, or
they went straight to Orsi,right?
And yes, absolutely.
And you know what?
Let me just say one thing,though.
Let me just say one thing aboutOrsi.
Or see, Orcy, Orsi, becausethis is what we're gonna be
talking about and continuetalking about.
(16:07):
Or see is about learning totalk and then learning through
talk.
All right, so so I want to makesure that we start there
because it all begins with that,right?
That learning to talk, learningto speak, and then through
instruction, through experience,through involvement with
(16:31):
others, that this learning totalk then extends to learning
through talk.
So what I learned from thissession with these educators
working with ELs andmultilingual learners was that
they did not understand or Ifailed to explain what I meant
(16:56):
by language.
All right.
So so I'm going back to mybackground in linguistics and
talk about language function andlanguage form.
All right, language functionand language form.
So when we are talking aboutlanguage function, all right,
(17:17):
you know, what do students dowith language in order to
demonstrate their understandingof the content?
That's where I'm going withfunction, all right?
So it can be describing,summarizing, it can be
explaining, comparing, oh mygosh, analyzing, arguing.
I mean, there's got, you know,why are you communicating?
Why are we communicating?
That is the function.
(17:38):
And this is where ORC reallytakes off.
And this is where we have tohave that opportunity for
students to explain why they aremoving in this direction or
summarize what they justlistened to, because oral
language is about speaking andlistening, right?
So what is that function?
But that function, right,consists of oral and written
(18:00):
language, right?
I mean, you can either talkabout it or you can write about
it.
Now, the difference, obviously,is that written language
requires very explicitinstruction, right, on what is
that mapping between that soundor that phoneme and that
grapheme.
So language, I'm talking abouteither it can be either oral or
(18:20):
written, but the difference, ofcourse, is that written requires
that very expliciteness of howdo we map that phoneme, that
sound to a letter, to agrapheme, right?
And then written language isgonna be still embedded within
this oral language.
Still, oral language still isthe umbrella that's gonna cover
(18:42):
everything, all right?
And oral language also, ofcourse, I gotta describe it.
What's a function?
Describing, summarizing,explaining, right?
The difference, of course, isthat oral is gonna be that oral
discourse, the written languageis gonna be the writing, but
that's the function.
So I can have either I candescribe it, I can analyze it,
either orally or written.
Now, so that is fine.
(19:02):
I get it.
But language also has form.
And in this case, what I'mreferring to is so form would be
like the what of structuredliteracy.
So form would be would includethe phonology, for example, all
right?
So the morphology, thesemantics, the syntax, the
(19:25):
pragmatics, and then of course,in written language, the
orthography.
So it's in letter stands forlanguage essentials, right?
Well, those are the formlanguage form is made up of
these language essentials.
All right.
And so if I think aboutstructured literacy, all right,
and if I look at the one of thebest infographics that's out
(19:46):
there is the one that'spublished by IDA, that right has
structured literacy and it'skind of in the middle of this
infographic, and on one side ithas the what, on the other side
it has the how.
Well, the what is that languageform, right?
The phonology, the morphology,the syllable and stress
patterns, all the elements, theorthography, that is the what
(20:09):
language form, right?
But in that essence of the whatof structured literacy, you're
also talking about readingcomprehension and written
expression, right?
So it's all these elements,language form, all these
elements that make up the what.
And if I think about structuredliteracy and I think about the
infographic that IDA has, thehow is going to be really those
principles of how theinstruction is going to be
(20:32):
delivered.
So, and that that includes theexplicitness of it, right?
That excludes as I mentionedearlier, yeah, the delivery bit
based on data, data-driveninstruction.
So those all those areas, if Itake a look, the scaffolding
that's going to be required, ithas to be cumulative,
sequential.
So, so all that, the how reallyis how are you going to deliver
(20:54):
that.
And then the what is consistsof the language, the language
forms.
And when I'm talking about itbeing highly interactive, then
we're talking about the ORC andhow is ORIC built within.
And that has to be throughout.
It has to be throughout.
It has to be throughout.
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Pam Austin (21:41):
The interaction we're talking about from teacher
to student, from student tostudent, from student to
teacher.
And that helps to build all ofthat orisy that we're looking at
when we're thinking aboutfunction, how it's used.
Yeah, exactly.
And then in that form, all therules.
When I think about phonology,when I think about orthography,
(22:04):
so thinking about all the rulesand language, because they're
there.
Right.
We just have to teach themdirectly.
Yeah, yeah.
So you're right.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (22:09):
That is awesome.
The functional language isgoing to be done through the
oracle, primarily, right?
And then of course it's goingto be written expression.
I don't want, I don't want toforget about written expression,
but that could also be, but asyou're going through written
expression, I mean, some of thescaffolding that's going to be
provided is going to be whatoral discussion.
You know, how am I going tothink about that?
How am I going to put all theseideas onto paper?
(22:30):
And it's having that discussionwith my teacher, having
discussion with my peers.
What is the function?
All right.
And the ORC is the really thestarting area, right?
To be able to deliver that.
Yeah.
Pam Austin (22:42):
I say that oral language is setting them up for
success because then we can getto where we need them to be.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (22:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Going back to what you said, achatty classroom, right?
Is a learning classroom, right?
I remember that from years ago,right?
I but it's not just let me alsomention one thing, and I'm sure
you mean you've got this too.
I mean, it's not just about thequantity, right?
But it's the quality, right?
(23:10):
That productive sense.
What are you, how are youproducing these this discourse,
whether it's oral or written, itis the quality of it to begin
with, of oral, of oracy.
Absolutely.
It's not about quantity.
We do want quantity, but it'squality is what we're after.
Pam Austin (23:27):
Quality is what we're after.
Would you say that the idea ofthe quantity, I've got lots and
lots of language, is amisconception for oral
development?
Would that be somemisconceptions when we think
about literacy instruction?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (23:42):
Well, we definitely want that quantity,
right?
But it's not just, is thatgoing to be senseless?
Is that going to bemeaningless?
Yes, I want that opportunity.
But it's also, don't we have tobe able to teach what the
quality looks like?
And that would includepragmatics.
And that would include itincludes listening.
I mean, so it, yeah, so there'sa whole lot more.
(24:03):
We want that quantity, butthere's got to be quality
involved in there as well.
And that does include, though,that does include very explicit
instruction of I say something,you're going to listen, you're
going to process what I justsaid, and then you're going to
go ahead and either add to it oryou're going to perhaps go down
another area, but then stillprovide the support, or why are
(24:25):
you arguing my point?
Or why are you saying no, thisis different?
But you have that thatinteraction.
Pam Austin (24:31):
You know, you've talked about the language
laboratory.
You described that during thatintroduction.
In particular, for Englishlanguage learners, how important
is this?
How does that impact languageand literacy for them?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (24:45):
Well, you know what?
Let me go back.
I've always said that it is theteacher's knowledge base that's
going to make all thedifference in the world, right?
Because it is the teacher whois going to, you know, suddenly
present this wonderment aboutthis word or this wonderment
(25:06):
about this phrase or this idiom,this metaphor, whatever the
case may be.
So I so it is that level ofexpertise that the teacher
possesses.
And you know, well, we neverstop, right?
Because English, and especiallyEnglish, it's so vast.
There's so much, but it'sreally darn interesting.
And when you start looking atthe principles of how even
(25:26):
orthography works in English,the last thing I want is for any
of our colleagues to say, oh,you know what?
English is such a crazylanguage, so let's not even talk
about the spelling.
No, it's not.
It's pretty, it's prettyconsistent once we know this
principles of spelling, forexample.
And so getting back to youroriginal question, so we as
educators, we need to instillthat level of excitement, that
(25:51):
level of love for our language.
And oh, yes, I can explain whythis word sounds this way or why
it's spelled this way.
And if I don't know now, youknow, I mean, I can look it up,
I can ask my teacher, whateverthe case may be.
But language shouldn't be amystery.
Language is about wonder.
So it is very important.
But for all across the board,though, Pam, especially for
(26:13):
English learners who aremultilingual learners, because
they, you know what, we'remaking connections to our own
home language.
And sometimes there is noconnection, all right?
Sorry, all right.
Something is complete opposite.
But like, whoa, okay, allright.
But so I am building a newpathway, a new neuronal pathway,
(26:34):
right?
Because now I know what thatmeans, or I know what that's
like in my home language, butnow I need to have another lane
in my super reading highway thatI possess, right?
Add another lane of that, oh,well, you know what?
In my language, that phoneme isnever in the final position of
words.
But in English, it is.
(26:55):
So, oh, okay.
So now I have to add that laneof, okay, well, now I have to
know how to say that sound,especially in the final position
and so forth.
And then going back to youranother question that you had,
or what we were talking aboutbefore.
So it is about beingintentional about the oral
language, about the oracle.
And like, especially if we'reestablishing a wonderment.
(27:16):
Tell me why this is interestingto you.
What is this?
How does this compare to yourhome language?
How is this?
Tell me about it.
Let's talk about it, right?
So, a dear friend, Sonia Cabelland her colleague Trisha
Zucker, I believe, is that howyou pronounce her last name.
She they publish a book titledThe Strive for Five, and they
talk about that.
They talk about having theseconversations, and that's what
(27:39):
it's all about.
My dear colleague Judy Dotsonpublished years ago 50 Nifty
activities, and she actuallythen had another publication for
just specifically for orallanguage and how intentional we
must be.
So, am I explaining thewonderments of the language?
There's an opportunity forstudents to compare it to their
language, for example, and howis this different or the same?
(28:01):
How does it compare?
So we have these wonderfuldiscussions about this language
laboratory of ours.
Pam Austin (28:06):
I just love it.
The wonderment, the excitement.
I can see you're excited aboutwords, Antonio.
I am the discovery, thediscovery of word, building a
word sense, really understandingwords and being able to take it
apart and make comparisons.
I think it's wonderful.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (28:21):
What I say is that every word has a story
to tell.
All right.
Every word has a story to tell.
And what's really the nextlevel, though, is then having
students talk about that wordand that story and then compare
it to a home language if it's ifthey're an English learner, or
how does that extend?
Where do I see that prefix orthat suffix, for example, in
(28:44):
other words, or where do I seethe root in other words, and
then just keep on building onthat and working on that?
And finally, attention is beingplaced on the adolescent
struggling reader, right?
And adolescent literacy.
And yes, there's so much morethat needs to be taught because
now we're really talking aboutmore complex text, for example.
The bottom line, though, is Igo back to my days with the
(29:08):
Department of Justice, and herewere some grown men, right, who
were at the time we had a policythat if if the inmate had
entered the system without ahigh school diploma, they had to
leave with a GED.
Now, this was our medium tohigh, medium to low, high
(29:29):
security risks.
But the bottom line is that howcan they go after a GED if they
can't read?
And that's when NIVA was firstintroduced to the Wilson Reading
program, because that was whyit was developed.
It was developed for the olderstudents who were struggling.
But I got to witness thatteaching of how this system
(29:53):
works, and along with some goodphonemic awareness activities,
that back then I had no ideawhat that was all about.
But the bottom line though isyes, it was adolescent literacy.
It's a whole different, it'skind of a whole different
ballgame, but it's not, becausewe have to still ensure that
those foundational skills are inplace.
The challenge is that you can'tbe using the same type of
(30:16):
lesson, right, as you do a youngchild.
And then, of course, then it'salways how do you make the
connection or the gem to connectto text?
Because now I have to practicethat.
So bottom line is we still needto understand how our language
works.
Pam Austin (30:30):
Definitely.
Because age and size doesn'tmatter.
The need is still there.
Maybe the sophistication ofyour delivery might change a
little bit.
It does.
Because when we think about oldlanguage, right?
It's not just restricted to ourEnglish learners, it's not just
restricted to our strugglingreaders.
When we think about kids intier one, okay, then we have our
tier two, our tier three kids.
(30:51):
How do we incorporate for alllevels across the board?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (30:56):
A colleague of mine has always stated that
the one doing the talking isdoing the learning.
And that goes back to what Isaid earlier about ORC is about
learning to talk, but then itextends to ORC is about
learning, right?
Learning through talk.
So the principles still remainthe same, that it's not about
(31:18):
quantity, it's about quality.
And it is also about anunderstanding of what was I just
taught.
And through ORC, through thatoral discussion, it will help
concretize that principle orwhatever it was it that I was
taught.
So the principles of ORC andoral language is still
consistent.
And I think now we really dohave a challenge, a tremendous
(31:39):
challenge, that our students arenot, our kids are not talking.
Our kids have more limitedcommunication because of the
devices that they have in in infront of them.
And even my son will say that.
If I get on the bus to go toschool and it's full of
(32:00):
primarily students, no one istalking.
Everyone is in front of theirin in with their device.
There's no communication.
It is so hard to talk.
And so I need to understandthese levels of syntactic
awareness.
I need to know how words cometogether to make sense.
I need to be able tocommunicate.
(32:20):
I need to be able to ask.
I need to be able to explain.
So the principles of orallanguage are still intact.
It's still intact.
I am going to, as a teacher, Iam going to explain.
I have to explain thewonderments of the language.
But at the same time, though, Ineed to be able to allow
students to have the opportunityto now tell me about this
(32:40):
learning and tell me why this isimportant to you and tell me
where did you, where else do wesee this?
And tell me about how am Igoing to connect that to
whatever else else I'm reading.
And then, of course, then basedon whatever else I'm reading,
how does this gonna help me withreading comprehension?
So it's that talk, it's thattalk, it's that talk, but it's
gonna be guided.
It's not just turn to yourneighbor and turn to your
(33:01):
neighbor and tell him, or turnto your neighbor and explain why
you take the stabs, or turn toyour neighbor and explain and
tell your neighbor why this wasso so important to you, or why
this was like, oh, what a hamoment for you.
What did you learn about this,or why did you think that this
doesn't really help any?
But yeah, I think right now asa society, we are definitely
moving away from that oraldiscourse.
(33:22):
And I think a lot of it has todo because of what's what's in
front of us.
I was invited to do a keynotein Portland, Oregon.
And some other colleagues ofmine were there as well.
But at lunchtime, we ate in thestudent union, right?
So it was full, it was packed.
It was all kids.
They were all kids, right?
(33:43):
I was floored.
I felt like going up andhugging every one of them.
I stand there.
I like to stand when there's alarge gathering of folks and
seeing is there's any talking orare they communicating?
But I looked around, and youknow what, Pam?
I did not see a table with adevice.
They were laughing, they weretalking, it was loud as all get
(34:08):
out.
It was so loud, and I was sohappy.
I was so happy because it wasso loud.
And the only ones who were withtheir devices, they were
sitting alone or doing whateverthey were doing, but they were
now with the company.
But I was just so thrilled thathere we had young people who
were actually, they had, I mean,they weren't doing purposely,
(34:29):
but I don't think theyunderstand what they were doing,
but they were having thesewonderful conversations and you
know, having this is natural.
Pam Austin (34:36):
What you're talking about, what you're saying with
great oresy, I must admit, isthat we need to provide
intentional opportunities forlanguage instruction.
Those examples that you weregiving just a little while ago,
it always had a why to explain.
So by answering why, you'reexpounding upon what you've
(34:58):
learned and what you've known.
It's just not turn and talk,but turn and talk and explain
why a certain concept.
So that's a great way ofactually incorporating that,
right?
Very intentional.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (35:10):
I just love those ideas that you're and I've
had some colleagues also when Ivisit campuses and visit
classrooms who told me, you knowwhat, I have to model, Antonio,
how to have this conversation.
Because even if I say turn andtalk, they're like, okay.
Yes.
Talk about what?
You just learned about.
So let me model for you.
(35:31):
And so it goes back to early onin our conversation panel,
we're talking about, or youmentioned we can't assume, and
it's the same thing now withoral language.
But do you remember those dayswhen we used to dialogic talk,
reading, dialogic reading,Socratic questioning?
I mean, we kind of got awayfrom that.
And I've seen some publicationsthat have said that we got away
(35:54):
from all that talk because westarted concentrating on
foundational skills.
Okay, well, I don't know, butwhy can't we concentrate on
foundational skills and talkabout them and explain and have
this discussion?
I mean, that's what it's allabout.
And of course, with explicitinstruction of how that
conversation is gonna go withthe levels of I speak, as I
(36:15):
mentioned earlier, you're gonnalisten, and then you're gonna go
ahead and add to it.
There's gonna be a level ofrespect, or and even say, hey,
you know what?
I'll I hear what you're saying,but I disagree because of blah,
blah, blah, blah, because ofthis, and being able to honor
each other's level of commitmentand understanding of on a
certain topic and be respectfulof it.
Now you're talking about socialand emotional aspects.
Exactly.
Pam Austin (36:35):
It leads, but it's all connected, isn't it?
It's the idea of modeling it sothat students understand what
the expectations are.
What do we mean by thisconversation?
Wouldn't that be a good way tomotivate and to engage
collaboration?
They have to see it, they haveto understand it, and we can
model that with great oresy.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (36:56):
Yeah, there's some frameworks and
models that are all across theworld.
The UK, and the only reason Ispeak about the UK is because my
brother actually lives inEurope, he lives in London and
is a school administrator.
And he talks about in the UK,they've been after ORISE for
quite some time now and theimportance of it.
And we were talking about thiscertain topic, and he's like,
(37:18):
there's certain aspects.
There's this physical aspect,the linguistic aspect, the
cognitive, and then the socialand emotional.
The social and emotional.
And that's what we were justaddressing right now, right?
Being able to speak withconfidence and also realize that
you're going to be listened towith respect.
And so, what about the socialand emotional aspect of it's
(37:41):
great to talk about oracy,right?
And oral language and itsimpact on literacy, period.
Who can argue about that?
We need to also realize thatthis, as my brother said, the
social and emotional aspect ofwhat language can build for us,
this collaboration with others,being able to listen or having
folks listen and respond, butrespectfully, right?
(38:03):
And be able to speak with easeand confidence that you're not
going to be diminished, that youare going to be listened to.
And, you know, there's anawareness of what's going on.
Pam Austin (38:13):
All right.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
I do want to ask you something,get a little personal here.
So, as a both a researcher anda parent of a child with
dyslexia, you mentioned a littlebit about AJ.
How has your personalexperience influenced your
professional perception?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (38:29):
What happens, if what I've been
after, and if you go back andthink about my journey through
this career, it has been aboutprofessional development.
It has been about teaching.
I am in my element when Iteach.
So as I worked with Luisa andall my colleagues, it wasn't
(38:49):
about presenting information astoday.
It's not about presentinginformation, it's about
teaching, right?
It's about teaching.
And I will always state theimportance of a knowledge base
that we possess as educators.
That is the silver bullet.
That is the magic formula.
We keep on saying there is nosilver bullet.
(39:11):
There's no yes, there is.
It is the teacher.
It is the teacher.
I have a niece who juststarted.
I need to, yeah.
My niece just startedyesterday, it was her first day
as a SED teacher.
Her very first day.
And so we called her in themorning.
(39:31):
Hey, have a great day.
And then we checked with herlast night, and she was so
tired, so drained.
And I said, you know what?
Here's to the start of awonderful career.
And don't forget that you'realways a learner.
Just like you're always ateacher, you're always a
learner.
And so what I found was throughmy career that, especially with
(39:52):
the area of dyslexia, there'sjust so much awareness that
needs to be established.
There's so much learning thatare uh that we all must do.
We all have to, we all have to.
So as my career has grown andthrough the years, it's always
about learning.
And how do I better meet theneeds of my son?
And how do I help his teachersmeet his needs?
(40:16):
And then it was eventually, AJ,you have to become your own
advocate.
And he has become his ownadvocate.
But it is about how do I helpprepare the field?
Pam Austin (40:27):
Knowledge is the key.
I agree with you.
Dr. Antonio Fierro (40:30):
Yeah, it is.
It is.
And so as I was telling Aubrey,my niece, like, you know what?
You may be the last hope forsome of these kids, right?
And so you, especially you withthe special population that
you're gonna be working with,you have to know what is going
on.
So it's nonstop learning, anddon't ever forget that.
Pam Austin (40:52):
I was gonna ask you this question, and that might be
the answer, but I'm gonna askit anyway to see if you want to
add a little bit more to thatanswer.
Okay.
If you could lean educatorswith one key takeaway about
structured literacy and orallanguage, what would it be?
Dr. Antonio Fierro (41:07):
Ah, yeah, yeah.
Well, it is it is about reallyunderstanding the principles of
structured literacy, right?
The principles of structuredliteracy, the elements of
language.
Do remember that language isabout form, all these elements
that make language, but it'salso about function.
And what are you going to uselanguage for?
And just realize that, yes, Iknow.
(41:28):
I mean, yes, it's thechallenges that educators have
now is the challenges areamazing.
But just always be open tolearning and to moving forward.
So yeah, that adding to theknowledge base is key.
Pam Austin (41:43):
Dr.
Fierra, I want to thank you forsharing your expertise, your
personal insights, and yourunwavering commitment to
ensuring that every student hasaccess to high-quality literacy
instruction.
But your work reminds us thatlanguage and literacy are
inseparable.
That's definitely a truth.
Yeah.
And dating oracle across alltiers is so essential.
(42:03):
Yep.
And it's needed for a success.
So, to our listeners, we hopetoday's FU360 conversation
inspires you to reflect on yourown practices and to take
actionable steps toward buildingclassrooms where all students
can thrive as readers andlearners.
I wanted to remind ourlisteners to subscribe to our
(42:23):
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(42:45):
Well, that's it for anothergreat EVU360 podcast.
Please join us again next monthand visit VoyagerSopras.com
slash Edview to learn about ourwebinars, blogs, and other
podcasts.
This has been Pam Austin, andwe hope to see you again soon.
Narrator (43:04):
This has been an Edview 360 podcast.
For additionalthought-provoking discussions,
sign up for our blog, webinar,and podcast series at Voyager
Sopras.com/slash Edview360.
If you enjoyed the show, we'dlove a five star review wherever
you listen to podcasts and tohelp other people like you find
(43:27):
our show.
Thank you.
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