April 24, 2025 • 42 mins
Join us as we talk with Lindsay Kemeny, a parent, elementary school teacher, and author of, 7 Mighty Moves. In this inspiring and eye-opening discussion, Kemeny shares her journey into science-based reading after her son was diagnosed with dyslexia and depression. Kemeny will discuss the key changes she made in her classroom after taking a deep dive into effective literacy instruction.
As this conversation explores the intricacies of effective reading instruction supported by comprehensive research, Kemeny shares evidence-based “moves” that will give you a road map to elevate your teaching practices. Through real-world examples and interactive discussions, this conversation will help you build confidence in your reading instruction.
We’ll explore:
- Research-backed methodologies for effective reading instruction
- Practical, evidence-based teaching moves
- Ways to develop confidence in reading instruction
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Episode Transcript
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Narrator (00:00):
Welcome to EdView 360.
Lindsay Kemeny (00:05):
I want to say don't be hard on yourself.
Have grace both with yourselfand grace for others.
We're all at different pointsof our learning journey, Like we
all have to start somewhere,right.
So start, begin your journey.
Focus on one thing at a time,because I know it can feel
(00:29):
overwhelming to be like, oh mygosh, I got to overhaul all my
literacy instruction.
But choose one thing, Startwith the one thing and then,
when you're ready, add somethingelse.
And I would say focus onprogress, not perfection, both
in your teaching and in yourstudents' learning.
Narrator (00:50):
You just heard from author and educator Lindsay
Kimeny.
Lindsay is our guest this monthon the EdView 360 podcast.
Pam Austin (01:01):
Hello, this is Pam Austin.
Welcome back to the EdVue 360podcast series.
We are so excited to have youwith us today for our April
Literacy Conversation.
I'm conducting today's podcastfrom my native New Orleans,
louisiana.
Today we are excited to welcomeauthor, educator and science of
(01:22):
reading advocate, lindsayKemeney.
Welcome author, educator andscience of reading advocate,
lindsay Kemeny.
Lindsay is a seasonedelementary school teacher who is
currently teaching first grade.
After her son was diagnosedwith dyslexia and depression,
she began her deep dive intoeffective literacy instruction.
She is a CERI certifiedstructured literacy classroom
teacher and holds a master'sdegree in curriculum and
(01:45):
instruction.
Lindsay is the author of booksSeven Mighty Moves, seven Mighty
Moves Reading Resources and herlatest Rock your Literacy block
.
Her articles have appeared inthe Reading League Journal and
IDA Perspectives.
Welcome, lindsay, let's talkabout your journey to
(02:06):
science-based readinginstruction.
Here we go.
Lindsay Kemeny (02:10):
Yes, thank you.
I'm so honored to be here, sothank you for having me.
Pam Austin (02:14):
All right, let's get right to it.
Let's start in the mostimportant place, the beginning
of your journey.
Tell our listeners about yourexperience with your son and
learning to read, and how thattransformed who you are as a
reading teacher.
Lindsay Kemeny (02:30):
Yeah well, this is my third son and the first
two learned to read rathereasily.
So I was pretty confused andalarmed when I was doing all of
the same things I did with myfirst two with my third and it
didn't seem to be working.
He was struggling to learn howto read.
(02:50):
I was doing all the things Ihad been taught in college in my
early years of teaching.
I had been reading to him fromthe time he was a baby and I was
really rather embarrassedbecause I'm like I'm a teacher
and I can't help my own sonlearn to read.
So it was when he was towardsthe end of his second grade year
(03:14):
when we finally did someoutside testing and that's when
we found out that he hasdyslexia, dysgraphia,
dyscalculia.
So it's a reading disability,writing disability, math
disability.
And this just started me on myjourney, because I had to find
(03:36):
out what do students withdyslexia need to learn to read?
Well, that led to what doeseveryone need when you learn to
read?
What happens in the brain whenyou learn to read?
And it was just like I feltlike the starved animal.
I couldn't get enough.
I was watching webinars,listening to lectures, reading
anything I could get my hands on.
(03:57):
It just really lit a fire underme.
But then what really lit a fireunder me was the fact that my
son was diagnosed withdepression at this time as well,
and his depression all centeredaround his struggles learning
to read.
And it actually he wasdiagnosed, but I didn't really
(04:21):
understand the depths of hispain until months later.
And it was so difficult becausehe said things and he did
things that no parent shouldhave to hear and no child should
have to feel.
I will never forget.
(04:41):
I'm never quite sure how muchto share, because I don't want
to trigger anybody, but I willnever forget the moment.
He never quite sure how much toshare, because I don't want to
trigger anybody, but I willnever forget the moment he
looked at me and he said I wishI was one of those babies that
got left in a hot car.
It took my breath away.
I felt like someone punched mein the stomach and I just
couldn't imagine his pain,couldn't imagine his pain and I
(05:10):
just really saw firsthand howtightly connected self-esteem
and the ability to read are.
Because my son is not alone.
There's so many others outthere who I just I have so much
admiration for them becausethey're there in our schools
every day hoping someone willhelp them.
But they're filled with thesefeelings of inadequacy and it's
not their fault and I just wantto help them, and so this is
(05:31):
like a long answer to yourquestion.
But we did all these things tohelp my son and, of course, when
things got so bad and he wasmaking these suicidal comments
and these actions, we took himto a professional to get therapy
.
But I found out, of everythingthat we did, what helped the
most was the ability to read,Because as his reading improved,
(05:52):
his self-esteem improved and itwas beautiful to see, it was
amazing to witness that growth,and that is why I'm so
passionate about what I do,because I want that for all kids
.
Pam Austin (06:09):
That is a transformation.
I'm just listening to all thevarying emotions, from
frustration because you weredoing what you were told to do,
right To feelings of inadequacyand the joy when you find the
information, but still it wastough work to help your son
because of the depression.
And the reality is you find theinformation, but still it was
tough work to help your sonbecause of the depression.
And the reality is school isthe first place where we really
feel successful, isn't it?
(06:30):
And how that was the key.
Oh, that's wonderful.
Thank you for sharing.
Lindsay, you talk about thetransformation in the learning
for your son.
When we think about thattransition of the science of
reading instruction moving intoyour classroom, was that a tough
one.
What challenges did you have toovercome?
(06:52):
Personally, you shared some,but professionally, in your
classroom, when you were workingwith your students.
Lindsay Kemeny (06:59):
Yeah, so when my son was first diagnosed, I was
teaching kindergarten and so Ifirst started this learning and
making changes in mykindergarten classroom.
Then I got moved to secondgrade and I was applying the
changes in second grade and thenI got moved to first grade and
so I got to apply the things infirst grade and it was
challenging, but I had this verydeep sense of purpose.
(07:24):
But I had this very deep senseof purpose.
So it was like I was reallymotivated and some of my
challenges were just my ownemotions, because I felt so many
things that you just kind oftouched on where I felt really
guilty.
I felt really bad that I didn'tknow some of the things that I
know now and I felt like if Ihad been better prepared, there
(07:47):
were so many other students Icould have helped more than I
did.
And I felt anger.
I was angry at myself, I wasangry at others, and I've really
learned to let go of a lot ofthat now and just focus on
improvement and getting betterand just looking forward instead
of looking back.
And I needed help.
It was challenging not havingsome resources and I would do
(08:09):
things like write grants.
I'm so grateful for myprincipal.
Because my principal had toreally trust me when I would
come to her and say, hey, Idon't want to use this in my
classroom, this is why, and hey,can I get to use this in my
classroom, this is why, and hey,can I get this?
Or how about this?
This is why I need these things.
And I feel like she had to goout on a limb a little bit at
(08:32):
first, until she saw the resultsthat I, the results with my
class, and then she reallytrusted me and I really
appreciate that, because havinga supportive admin is huge.
Pam Austin (08:45):
Oh, definitely true.
When I think professionallyabout how we feel when we've
learned, when we know better, wedo better right and going
through those emotions ourselves.
I think there are manyeducators that's been there I'm
one of them as well and it'sjust so heartwarming to hear
that you had that administrativesupport and can move on and
(09:08):
learn more and dive more deeply.
You know now that you arecurrently all in with
science-based reading.
Let's talk about your approachto phonemic awareness and
phonics instruction.
What does that look like?
What can other teachers ofreading learn from your previous
approach compared to whatyou're doing now?
Lindsay Kemeny (09:29):
Okay, well, with phonemic awareness.
It's kind of funny because thefirst thing I had to do was just
learn that it was a thing.
I didn't even know whatphonemic awareness was, that
that was a thing I shouldconsider when I had students who
struggle.
So that was my first move wasjust okay, I've got to teach
phonemic awareness intentionally.
But then, as I learned more, Irefined my knowledge and I
(09:53):
learned that, hey, our sessionsfocused on phonemic awareness.
Those can be brief.
We're talking a few minutes aday and I can really focus on
getting to the phoneme.
We don't need to get stuck withthe larger chunks, but we need
students to be able to get rightto the phoneme level blending
those phonemes to read, pullingapart, segmenting those phonemes
(10:16):
to spell, and I can connect thephonemic awareness with letters
.
So that was an interestingunderstanding too.
That I had to learn was likeyes, we can do a brief, oral
only phonemic awareness warmup,but then I really need to show
them how like that warmup, likethat is exactly what we're doing
(10:37):
when we're reading and writing,and I need to show them how it
connects with letters.
And then with phonicsinstruction.
I like, okay, I would have beenoffended years ago if you were
like, do you teach phonics?
I'd be like, yes, of course.
But when I think back, I wasfacilitating phonics activities.
(11:00):
I wasn't explicitly teachingphonics.
I didn't have any scope andsequence to follow.
I never even considered that Iwasn't explicitly teaching
phonics.
I didn't have any scope andsequence to follow.
I never even considered that.
I would just like what word didthey miss in the book we read
yesterday?
I guess I'll teach that and soand like now, phonics is one of
my favorite things to teach.
It's my strength and it used tobe a huge weakness.
But phonics explicit phonicsinstruction is clear.
(11:25):
It's very interactive.
I'm channeling Dr Anita Archerhere when I say I do something,
they do something.
I say something, they saysomething, I read something,
they read something, I writesomething, they write something.
Right, and I love teachingphonics.
It's just night and day fromwhat it was before.
Pam Austin (11:42):
That openness is what I'm hearing from you to
change and to shift.
I love the word to useintentional, so you
intentionally began teaching,incorporating that phonemic
awareness.
There's another word I alsolove refine.
Quite often teachers, we tendto think because I'm guilty of
it too, the first time I'm doingit it's going to be perfect and
(12:03):
it's got to be good.
And if the kids don't get it, Ididn't do it right.
You know.
Intentional refinement and thatshift, lindsay, from that
incidental phonics to systematicphonics, it's just music to my
ears and it's something that ourlisteners appreciate hearing,
so that we can look at thatconsistency of what the
expectations are.
Lindsay Kemeny (12:22):
Yeah, and I love that word refine too, because I
feel like that's what we'reconstantly doing.
I mean, every year I feel likeI get a little bit better
because I'm refining some areaof my instruction right, and
it's just like there's alwaysmore to learn and more to do and
more ways we can grow.
Pam Austin (12:40):
Definitely, and it never ends.
Refinement never ends.
Let's talk about some decodingstrategies and the importance
when we're decoding to avoid thequeuing system that can be
popular in some places.
Why is decoding instruction socritical for all our young
readers, especially for thosewho struggle, like you mentioned
(13:02):
the struggling parentssituation you have with your son
.
Lindsay Kemeny (13:06):
Yeah, well, okay , in order to store words in
long-term memory for effortless,instant retrieval, what do the
students need to do?
They need to connect the soundsthey hear with the letters they
see on the page, with themeaning of the word.
Those three things have tohappen.
(13:27):
But you think about some ofthose three cueing strategies
that I did for years, wherewe're like look at the picture.
Does it give you a clue whathappens with their eyes?
Their eyes go off the word sofast.
Or read the rest of thesentence.
What would make sense there,where they're figuring it out
from context?
Where do their eyes go?
Are their eyes staying on thewords?
(13:49):
No, I need them to be familiarwith the details of the word and
in order for them to do that,their eyes need to stay on the
word, decode it left from right.
I love that.
Dr Seidenberg said the best cueto a word is the word itself.
I don't need all these otherthings.
I need to direct students tothat word and to decode it.
Pam Austin (14:12):
All right, you have to sit out.
Quote one more time, Lindsay.
We need to hear it again.
Lindsay Kemeny (14:16):
Dr Seidenberg's best cue to a word is the word
itself.
Pam Austin (14:22):
That's music to my ears as well.
Oh, thank you so much forsharing that.
What about?
Sight words, though In yourprevious understanding of them
as well.
Oh, thank you so much forsharing that.
What about sight words, though,right, and your previous
understanding of them?
What do you know about sightwords now, and how do you know
now the impacts of yourinstruction and how is it a
better approach?
Yeah, okay, this is what you'vedone before.
Lindsay Kemeny (14:44):
So what I thought before was that a sight
word is a word that can't besounded out.
That's what I thought.
But you go look at, like thefry frequency or dolch list and
look how many words arecompletely decodable if you just
know your basic alphabet, Imean you're going to have it,
you're going to have in, you'regoing to have, and there's no
(15:06):
reason to teach those wordsseparately and then others will
be decodable.
Once they're taught thatphonics skill, like once they
know TH, then they can read thisand that.
Once they learn that EA spellsE, right, and CH, diagraph
spells CH, then they can readthe word each and then the other
(15:29):
ones.
They will have some irregularity.
But there's also a lot of thesounds or the letters in the
word that are completely regular.
It's like one or two parts thatare hard.
So we don't need to teach themas these visual units, which is
what I did before, where we'rejust memorizing them as a whole.
(15:49):
The problem with that is it'sstored in your memory
differently and there's a limitto how many words you can
memorize as a whole, and so thekindergarten teacher might not
realize there's a problem.
The first grade teacher mightnot realize there's a problem.
It's going to be like thesecond or the third or the
(16:10):
fourth grade teacher when thatstudent can't memorize those
words as a unit anymore, they'vereached their cap.
And then those teachers arelike oh my goodness, the student
phonemic awareness, and so thatis like they can bypass
(16:36):
phonemic awareness by justmemorizing the whole word,
because they don't want to dothat work of breaking down how
the sounds connect with theletters.
So I have a good friend, anadult, who has dyslexia, and
this is how he describedlearning to read when he was
younger.
He's like I memorized words.
That's what I did.
I memorized words and didn'teven realize that those letters
(17:03):
represent the sounds in ourlanguage.
So now when I teachhigh-frequency words, I'm
thinking about that.
Guess what?
Even though it's a highfrequency word, we can segment
those sounds, we can think abouthow they attach with the
spellings, even when they'reirregular, and we can bring in
some etymology and morphology ofthe word, if the student is
(17:23):
ready for it, and show them howthat connects right.
So yeah, just much different.
Pam Austin (17:30):
Right, and that adds an extra layer when you bring
in etymology and morphology forstudents to make a connection
for them.
Awesome, wonderful insight here.
Well, thinking about accuracy,influence, you know, we hear the
word automaticity all the time.
What's the difference betweenaccuracy and fluency and
(17:51):
automaticity?
Isn't that the same thing?
Lindsay Kemeny (17:54):
Okay, All right.
So think of fluency.
Fluency is a combination ofthree things Accuracy, rate and
prosody.
Accuracy is first foremost andforever the foundation of
fluency, as Dr Jan Hasbrook says.
So accuracy is what we'relooking at first.
(18:14):
If that student is reallyinaccurate in the reading, we're
not going to be like readfaster, we're not going to focus
on the rate, we're going to befocusing on the accuracy.
And then you mentionedautomaticity.
So automaticity is acombination of accuracy and rate
, and I heard Dr Hasbrook saidthat automaticity is the heart
(18:35):
and soul of fluency and I reallylike that.
And sometimes, because I'mteaching first grade right now,
sometimes we think in the lowergrades we're not working on
fluency, but we are because weare building that automaticity.
They need automaticity, whichis, remember that accuracy and
(18:56):
the rate.
They need that with the lettersounds.
So the kindergarten teachersworking on letter sounds hey,
that's where our fluency begins,getting those automatic.
Then you can think of fluencyat the word level and then at
the sentence and text level.
So there's so many things thatgo into play.
Pam Austin (19:14):
So multiple layers here, but getting that base
skill of being able to decodeaccurately will lead to that
fluency.
Yeah, all right, I love it.
Thank you so much.
So what are some strategiesreading teachers can implement
to improve accuracy influence?
(19:35):
You mentioned a few things justnow.
Working on those phonics skills.
Is there anything in particularyou would recommend?
Lindsay Kemeny (19:42):
Yeah.
So, yes, like with accuracy,you see they have low accuracy.
That is telling you, hey, we'vegot to strengthen their phonics
.
And well, it could be acombination of phonics and
phonemic awareness, right.
So you're looking at that, payattention to the words they're
missing, because you might seesome patterns like you might see
, oh, they're missing thoseinflectional endings, right, or
(20:04):
those suffixes at the end, likeE-D-I-N-G.
You're thinking, okay, maybe Ineed to practice that with them.
Or you might notice, oh gosh,they keep missing vowel teams.
I've noticed that they don'tknow those vowel teams.
Well then, that's an area where, hey, you can pull out, you can
say, okay, they're missing E-A.
I'm going to do a little lessonwith them.
(20:24):
We're going to practice writingwords with EA.
We're going to spell words withEA.
You can make a little word listto have them practice to
improve that accuracy andfluency.
There's a lot of differentthings I like to do for fluency.
One thing that I love doing,which is something I learned
(20:53):
from Nora Chabazi, which Ichanged the title.
I call it Read, model, readAgain.
So the student reads a portionof the text.
It might be like a paragraph.
If I'm a kindergarten teacher,it might just be a sentence.
The student reads it first.
Then I go back and I read thesame part, so that same page.
And I have them track theirfinger while I read and say, now
listen to me while I read that,and I read it and I'm going to
(21:13):
model appropriate pacing andphrasing expression.
And then they go back and readit again, so they read that same
part again.
I love this because they'regetting another exposure to
those words and they alsothey're better the second time
(21:34):
so they can work.
They're a little more accurate,they're working on their
fluency more the second time andthey'll work on expression.
It's really fun because I'llhear them mimic my expression
when they read it and so I lovethat and it just builds their
confidence because they're like,hey, that was so good my second
they read it and so I love thatand it just builds their
confidence because they're likehey, that was so good my second
time reading it.
And another thing I like to dofor students who they're already
(21:56):
pretty accurate but they coulduse some help improving their
rate.
I never want to say read faster.
I don't want it to be aboutthat, but I love to do something
.
It's got a fancy name, it'scalled the neurological impress
method, but it's just a fancyway of saying read at the same
(22:18):
time as a student.
But you want to read just alittle bit quicker than how they
normally read.
So I will put my finger overthe top of the words and they're
going to track underneath andI'm going to say let's read this
page together, try to keep yourvoice with mine, and then I'm
going to be reading while theyread with me, and so I love to
(22:39):
do that.
And the last thing I'll sharefor fluency I want to share one
more thing.
I love a class-wide fluencyintervention called partner
reading, paragraph shrinking,and I learned this from Dr Burns
, an evidence-based activity forgrades two through eighth grade
(23:02):
.
And wow, my like the results ofthis.
I started it in second gradeand now I am trying to think I'm
not going to remember mynumbers now but our class median
of words, correct per minutelike, went up like maybe 20
words in like two weeks.
(23:22):
It's crazy.
I'd have to go back and lookbecause I'm forgetting the
numbers.
And I do it now in first grade,this activity, but I wait until
January or February and thenusually I'll start them in
decodables before I transferthem in, so, anyway, I could
spend a whole hour just talkingabout partner reading, paragraph
shrinking, but I love doingthat to help fluency as well.
Pam Austin (23:41):
All right, wonderful ideas.
I know our participants areappreciating hearing these
variations.
We're looking at beingdiagnostic and prescriptive and
we're focusing on where studentsare maybe making errors in the
area of decoding and also verytargeted on those fluency
practice opportunities.
I love the variations that youshare.
(24:02):
Thank you so much, lindsay.
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Lindsay Kemeny (24:30):
Yeah, and can I just chime in Because you were
talking about that practiceExactly, and Dr Pam Kastner said
that if it's been taught butnot mastered, there is probably
a practice gap.
And I love that and I'm alwaysthinking like, as I'm teaching
throughout the day how muchpractice are my students getting
(24:53):
?
Are they getting enough?
If they don't have it, how canI increase the opportunities for
them to practice, with theopportunity for feedback, not
just on their own right, becausethey need that feedback.
Pam Austin (25:04):
Right, the practice gap.
Oh, I love it.
Thank you so much for addingthat.
Yeah, let's shift a little bitfrom.
I'm thinking about practicing.
Quite often there are decodablebooks out there.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe codable readers, those
books that we use for maybe ourbeginning and struggling
students?
How do they fit?
Lindsay Kemeny (25:22):
Yeah, sure, okay .
So the year my son wasdiagnosed is also the first year
I was teaching kindergarten,and I remember being so excited
because you spend all this timeteaching letter names and sounds
and I was so excited to bringmy little kindergartners to my
small group table and say nowyou can read words, I'm going to
(25:43):
show you how you can read books, words, I'm going to show you
how you can read books.
But the books that I had werethose predictable repetitive
books, and so it was like wecleaned up the kitchen, we
cleaned up the garage, wecleaned up the bedroom, and you
think about those books.
They're filled with these soundspelling correspondences that
students have not been taught.
(26:03):
So the only way for them toread those books is to memorize
the pattern and then use thepicture to guess from the
pictures.
And so I remember stopping mystudents and saying oh wait, oh,
you can't sound this one out.
Look at the picture.
Does it give you a clue?
And I was like, oh, like.
(26:24):
I said that all the time when Itaught second grade and I
didn't think anything of it.
And then it was when I wasteaching kindergarten, these
brand new fragile readers, thatI was like I am giving them the
wrong idea of what reading is.
And we just spent all this timepracticing our letter sounds,
and now I want them to practicelike we were teaching them.
(26:45):
And now I want them to practicethe letter sounds.
And I'm asking them to practiceLike we were teaching them.
And now I want them to practicethe letter sounds and I'm
asking them to do somethingcompletely different.
And so I started getting uneasywith what I had been taught, and
one of the first changes I madein my classroom was to get
decodable books.
So now a decodable book has thesound symbol correspondences
(27:07):
that you have taught them.
And let me tell you that, as aformer kindergarten teacher,
even as a first grade teacher,it's a lot easier to listen to a
child read those predictable,repetitive texts because they
sound fluent already, they soundlike they're reading and it
takes a lot more patience tolisten to them slowly sound out
(27:31):
Sat sat.
On the next page it's like thesame word.
They do it again Sat sat.
But that is a critical step.
We cannot skip that step andthey need to go through that
productive struggle to reallysolidify those phonics concepts,
(27:53):
solidify being able to blendthe sounds, and they will take
off in the future.
So it's going to sound a littleslower at the beginning than
the ones who are just memorizing, but the ones who are really
solidifying those concepts.
They're going to become greatreaders because they've got the
foundational skills right.
So I love decodables becausewe're just talking about
(28:14):
practice.
This allows them to practicewhat you're teaching.
Pam Austin (28:18):
That's wonderful, that productive struggle,
slowing down in order toaccelerate later on.
You know, what was runningthrough my mind just now was
application, and sometimes it'snot easy right?
Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Kemeny (28:30):
But oh, I do want to share.
I remember that kindergartenyear when I got the decodables
Okay, and I had changed rightBecause I had been using
predictable, repetitive text.
I changed to decodables and oneof my little students who he
would later actually bediagnosed with dyslexia, he said
he was reading the Decodableand he yelled and he goes Mrs
(28:51):
Kemeny, I am actually readingthe words and like his joy was
just whoa overflowing and it wasthe best.
But it's also like he knew thedifference.
He knew the difference of whathe was doing before and now.
(29:12):
Oh my gosh, I'm actuallyreading the words.
Pam Austin (29:15):
Wow, true success.
That is beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
Oh, that is awesome.
So we've been talking a lotabout decoding.
Using those decodable books,students applying the skills
that they're learning.
How can we build vocabulary andbackground knowledge?
What should educators do tobuild these skills in every
(29:37):
lesson and every subject,because they're going to be
learning something new for allof their school-wide career,
right yeah?
Lindsay Kemeny (29:44):
Yeah, okay, this is so important.
We need to be doing this fromthe time they enter our schools
and we don't want to likeover-focus on one side of
Scarborough's reading rope thanthe other.
Right, and so vocabulary andbackground knowledge are part of
those upper strands ofScarborough's reading rope.
Those are critical.
Oral language is the foundationof everything and this is part
(30:07):
of that.
So students can learnvocabulary words implicitly and
explicitly right.
So we should be teachingexplicitly teaching vocabulary
words from the time they enterthe schools.
In addition, we can elevate thelanguage that we're using with
(30:28):
our students because we can usethat advanced vocabulary and
they will start to use it.
I remember when I said to mystudents it's like the beginning
of the year and I said, pleaseget out your anthologies.
And they all looked around whatthe heck is she talking about?
And I'm like an anthology is abig book that has a collection
(30:49):
of many other stories in it.
Can you get out your anthology?
And then it was so fun becausethey started using the word.
Right, so we can definitelyelevate the language and they
will rise to that and it's soimportant because you don't know
if they're being exposed tothat language.
Read-alouds, read-alouds are soimportant because, again,
(31:12):
they're going to be exposed tolanguage that they might not
regularly.
That language in our text ismore advanced than the ones we
use in conversation and this isalso where you're going to be
building that backgroundknowledge just by reading all
kinds of texts about all sortsof different things, both
fascinating nonfiction and richfiction and literature.
(31:36):
So, yeah, we need to beattending to both of those
things, and then I will say itdoesn't mean that we don't teach
strategies or comprehensionstrategies, because we still do
and the strategies are inservice of building that
knowledge, right?
So I'm teaching my students howcan we come up with what the
(31:58):
main gist of this paragraph was,or what was that story about?
I'm going to help them that.
We're going to model monitoring, we're going to summarize,
we're going to do a lot ofdifferent things to deepen our
knowledge.
Pam Austin (32:11):
Right and a lot of oral conversation with that
right.
I love the idea ofincorporating those read-alouds
because I don't think it stopsin the primary grades.
It can move up and up in theuse of that oral language.
Thank you for sharing that aswell.
Lindsay Kemeny (32:25):
Yeah, and just the wide reading too, as
students are ready.
We're not only exposing ouryounger students to decodables
because we're reading aloud tothem and then, as they're ready,
they're transitioning out ofdecodables into regular texts.
For example, my first gradersit's March right now we read
Frog and Toad last week, we'rereading Click Clack Moo this
(32:46):
week.
So we're getting them intoregular text and as they go up
the grades, you're helping themaccess that complex text.
So you're doing a variety ofthings modeling it, choral
reading, partner reading, lotsof things, because they're going
to learn background knowledgeand vocabulary as they're
reading.
Pam Austin (33:04):
Right.
I love, explicitly andimplicitly, two ways that they
gain those skills there.
All right, now we don't want toforget about writing
instruction and comprehension.
I want you to give ourlisteners some ideas of how you
incorporate writing, instructionand comprehension.
How important is that?
Lindsay Kemeny (33:26):
Okay, I could spend an hour talking about
writing instruction with you.
I feel like I've been doing somany more moves around writing
and it's so exciting.
But I love connecting whatwe're writing about to what
we're reading about.
I mean it's reciprocal becauseit's going to deepen their
(33:47):
comprehension of what we'rereading.
Plus, it's going to improvetheir writing and their writing
skills too.
I mean, if you think about whenyou have to write about
something, you really have tounderstand it.
And so when we are reading atext and I might say we're going
to be writing, our writingprompt this week is going to be
about this.
So let's listen, you know, orkind of guide them a little bit.
(34:09):
They're going to be listeningor reading, paying a little more
attention as they read, becausemy students love writing and so
they really they know that it'sgoing to strengthen their
writing if they know a lot aboutthe topic.
So, for example, in our coreprogram we have been learning
and reading.
In our ELA program I shouldspecify we've been learning and
(34:32):
reading about animal habitats,and so last week our prompt I
chose just one of the habitatsthat we were learning about and
our prompt was like explain howArctic animals adapted to their
habitat, and so that was ourprompt and so we were working on
(34:54):
that.
And I want to be clear when Isay that's their prompt, I'm not
just assigning a prompt.
That's what I used to do,that's what I thought, that's
what I thought writing was.
But I'm guiding them andhelping them through that whole
writing process.
We're going to plan our ideas,we're going to organize our
outline and then we're going towrite.
So I helped them with theoutline.
(35:15):
Now they're writing on theirown.
I walk around and circle andhelp and it's amazing to see
it's so neat to write about whatwe're reading.
And then this week it changedthings up.
So last week we were writinginformational, this week we're
writing opinion, and so Imentioned we're reading Click
(35:37):
Clack Moo.
And so my prompt was likeshould Farmer Brown get the
ducks a diving board or not?
And oh, the discussions.
If you came to my first gradeclass, it's so fun because we're
having lots of discussions.
Remember that oral languagetalking I've got different sides
.
Some are like yes, and this iswhy, and some are no, and this
(35:59):
is why.
And so it's so fun because nowwhen we go back and we partner
read that click-clack-moo FarmerBrown, they are really engaged
in that text because they knowthey're also writing about it.
So I just it's kind of neat,it's going to support the
comprehension and the writingand I feel like I keep rambling.
Pam Austin (36:19):
I'm sorry, no, no, no.
This is so exciting to hearreally practical ways you are
applying these strategies andthe idea that you begin with the
oral.
You start with the instruction,that direct guided instruction,
so students truly know andunderstand what they're supposed
to do, and writing from textthat they've read.
Oh, my goodness, I've just readabout this and I get to write
(36:42):
about what I've read.
And one thing that was verytelling you started at the
beginning my students lovewriting, your students love
writing because you arescaffolding and giving them a
direct, explicit instruction andguiding them toward being
successful with writing.
It's a process.
It doesn't happen overnight.
(37:02):
So no I appreciate thelong-winded stories because they
give us some insight on what'sbeen working with you, based on
what you've learned and whatyou've applied in your classroom
, so I think that's verypractical.
Lindsay Kemeny (37:16):
Well, and can I just give a shout out?
I got to give a shout out to DrLeslie Ludd from Think SRSD
because she has really helped me.
She's helped my writing reallycome alive and so I'm so
grateful and my students willcheer when it's time for writing
and that is just like really sospecial.
Pam Austin (37:35):
Oh, yes, that is exciting.
What are some of the mostcritical, maybe the best
evidence-based, most effectiveI'm trying to come up with all
my adjectives here.
What are some moves that youuse that maybe some of our
participants, maybe someone inmy audience, will look I'd like
(37:58):
to try some of these moves thatshe's talking about.
Could you give me maybe two orthree that it would be a good
idea to start with?
If you're doing a shift, you'rechanging your instruction and
you want to have that positiveimpact on students, what would
you suggest?
Lindsay Kemeny (38:16):
So this is really hard for me to answer
because this is going to reallydepend on your students, what
grade you are teaching, yourstrengths as a teacher, what
you're already doing well andwhat you know what's not as
strong.
So for me, because I was firstmaking these moves as a
(38:38):
kindergarten teacher, probablythe most important move for me
was those using decodingstrategies and decodable text
for my kindergartners.
But that move might not be theright move for an upper grade
teacher or someone else, so it'sso hard to answer that I do
(38:59):
understand it.
Pam Austin (38:59):
So even for us, when we think about the instruction
we need to provide, we want tohave some prescriptions, we want
to be diagnostic right For adoctor.
You wouldn't give you someantibiotic for a cold.
It's not the right prescription.
All right, so as we wrap up, Ijust wanted to discuss how
(39:23):
teachers can develop confidencein reading instruction if they
are transitioning toscience-based strategies.
How can they build themselvesup after learning and teaching a
different way in the past?
Lindsay Kemeny (39:32):
Okay, I want to say don't be hard on yourself.
Have grace both with yourselfand grace for others.
We're all at different pointsof our learning journey, like we
all have to start somewhere,right?
So start, begin your journey.
Focus on one thing at a timebecause I know it can feel
(39:56):
overwhelming to be like, oh mygosh, I got to overhaul all my
literacy instruction but chooseone thing, start with the one
thing and then, when you'reready, add something else.
And I would say focus onprogress, not perfection, both
in your teaching and in yourstudents' learning.
Pam Austin (40:17):
Focus on progress, not perfection.
Very good advice, Lindsay.
Well, this has been a wonderfulconversation about the
intricacies and effectivereading instruction supported by
comprehensive research.
You named a lot of researchersand a lot of our gurus of
literacy out there.
(40:37):
You've learned quite a bit fromthem If you heard some of those
names, dive into learning more,as well as your own fascinating
journey.
Lindsay, we want to thank youfor sharing your knowledge and
experience with our audiencetoday.
How can our listeners learnmore about you?
Lindsay Kemeny (40:55):
Well, I'm on social media.
Facebook is Teaching withLindsay Kemeny, so it's a
Facebook page, instagram, and XI'm just, and LinkedIn I'm at
Lindsay Kemeny, I have a website.
And X I'm just.
And LinkedIn I'm at LindsayKemeny.
I have a website,lindsaykemenycom.
And, of course, my book SevenMighty Moves.
I have two of those, and mythird book is Rocky Laracy Block
(41:16):
comes out this summer, so oh,wonderful, thank you for sharing
.
Pam Austin (41:20):
Well, that's it for another great Edview 360 podcast
.
Please join us again and visitvoyageshoprislearningcom slash
edview to learn more about ourwebinars, blogs and other
podcasts.
This has been Pam Austen and wehope to see you all again soon.
Narrator (41:38):
This has been an Edview 360 podcast.
For additionalthought-provoking discussions,
sign up for our blog, webinarand podcast series at
voyagersopriscom.
Slash edview360.
If you enjoyed the show, we'dlove a five-star review wherever
you listen to podcasts and tohelp other people like you find
(42:00):
our show.
Thank you.
Voyager Sopris Learning (42:14):
Voyager Sopris Learning is the reading,
writing and math interventionspecialist With four decades of
results.
We provide evidence-basedinterventions and assessments
that help educators ensureacademic success for all
students.
Learn more at voyagersopriscom.
Welcome to EdView 360.
Lindsay Kemeny (00:05):
I want to say don't be hard on yourself.
Have grace both with yourselfand grace for others.
We're all at different pointsof our learning journey, Like we
all have to start somewhere,right.
So start, begin your journey.
Focus on one thing at a time,because I know it can feel
(00:29):
overwhelming to be like, oh mygosh, I got to overhaul all my
literacy instruction.
But choose one thing, Startwith the one thing and then,
when you're ready, add somethingelse.
And I would say focus onprogress, not perfection, both
in your teaching and in yourstudents' learning.
Narrator (00:50):
You just heard from author and educator Lindsay
Kimeny.
Lindsay is our guest this monthon the EdView 360 podcast.
Pam Austin (01:01):
Hello, this is Pam Austin.
Welcome back to the EdVue 360podcast series.
We are so excited to have youwith us today for our April
Literacy Conversation.
I'm conducting today's podcastfrom my native New Orleans,
louisiana.
Today we are excited to welcomeauthor, educator and science of
(01:22):
reading advocate, lindsayKemeney.
Welcome author, educator andscience of reading advocate,
lindsay Kemeny.
Lindsay is a seasonedelementary school teacher who is
currently teaching first grade.
After her son was diagnosedwith dyslexia and depression,
she began her deep dive intoeffective literacy instruction.
She is a CERI certifiedstructured literacy classroom
teacher and holds a master'sdegree in curriculum and
(01:45):
instruction.
Lindsay is the author of booksSeven Mighty Moves, seven Mighty
Moves Reading Resources and herlatest Rock your Literacy block
.
Her articles have appeared inthe Reading League Journal and
IDA Perspectives.
Welcome, lindsay, let's talkabout your journey to
(02:06):
science-based readinginstruction.
Here we go.
Lindsay Kemeny (02:10):
Yes, thank you.
I'm so honored to be here, sothank you for having me.
Pam Austin (02:14):
All right, let's get right to it.
Let's start in the mostimportant place, the beginning
of your journey.
Tell our listeners about yourexperience with your son and
learning to read, and how thattransformed who you are as a
reading teacher.
Lindsay Kemeny (02:30):
Yeah well, this is my third son and the first
two learned to read rathereasily.
So I was pretty confused andalarmed when I was doing all of
the same things I did with myfirst two with my third and it
didn't seem to be working.
He was struggling to learn howto read.
(02:50):
I was doing all the things Ihad been taught in college in my
early years of teaching.
I had been reading to him fromthe time he was a baby and I was
really rather embarrassedbecause I'm like I'm a teacher
and I can't help my own sonlearn to read.
So it was when he was towardsthe end of his second grade year
(03:14):
when we finally did someoutside testing and that's when
we found out that he hasdyslexia, dysgraphia,
dyscalculia.
So it's a reading disability,writing disability, math
disability.
And this just started me on myjourney, because I had to find
(03:36):
out what do students withdyslexia need to learn to read?
Well, that led to what doeseveryone need when you learn to
read?
What happens in the brain whenyou learn to read?
And it was just like I feltlike the starved animal.
I couldn't get enough.
I was watching webinars,listening to lectures, reading
anything I could get my hands on.
(03:57):
It just really lit a fire underme.
But then what really lit a fireunder me was the fact that my
son was diagnosed withdepression at this time as well,
and his depression all centeredaround his struggles learning
to read.
And it actually he wasdiagnosed, but I didn't really
(04:21):
understand the depths of hispain until months later.
And it was so difficult becausehe said things and he did
things that no parent shouldhave to hear and no child should
have to feel.
I will never forget.
(04:41):
I'm never quite sure how muchto share, because I don't want
to trigger anybody, but I willnever forget the moment.
He never quite sure how much toshare, because I don't want to
trigger anybody, but I willnever forget the moment he
looked at me and he said I wishI was one of those babies that
got left in a hot car.
It took my breath away.
I felt like someone punched mein the stomach and I just
couldn't imagine his pain,couldn't imagine his pain and I
(05:10):
just really saw firsthand howtightly connected self-esteem
and the ability to read are.
Because my son is not alone.
There's so many others outthere who I just I have so much
admiration for them becausethey're there in our schools
every day hoping someone willhelp them.
But they're filled with thesefeelings of inadequacy and it's
not their fault and I just wantto help them, and so this is
(05:31):
like a long answer to yourquestion.
But we did all these things tohelp my son and, of course, when
things got so bad and he wasmaking these suicidal comments
and these actions, we took himto a professional to get therapy
.
But I found out, of everythingthat we did, what helped the
most was the ability to read,Because as his reading improved,
(05:52):
his self-esteem improved and itwas beautiful to see, it was
amazing to witness that growth,and that is why I'm so
passionate about what I do,because I want that for all kids
.
Pam Austin (06:09):
That is a transformation.
I'm just listening to all thevarying emotions, from
frustration because you weredoing what you were told to do,
right To feelings of inadequacyand the joy when you find the
information, but still it wastough work to help your son
because of the depression.
And the reality is you find theinformation, but still it was
tough work to help your sonbecause of the depression.
And the reality is school isthe first place where we really
feel successful, isn't it?
(06:30):
And how that was the key.
Oh, that's wonderful.
Thank you for sharing.
Lindsay, you talk about thetransformation in the learning
for your son.
When we think about thattransition of the science of
reading instruction moving intoyour classroom, was that a tough
one.
What challenges did you have toovercome?
(06:52):
Personally, you shared some,but professionally, in your
classroom, when you were workingwith your students.
Lindsay Kemeny (06:59):
Yeah, so when my son was first diagnosed, I was
teaching kindergarten and so Ifirst started this learning and
making changes in mykindergarten classroom.
Then I got moved to secondgrade and I was applying the
changes in second grade and thenI got moved to first grade and
so I got to apply the things infirst grade and it was
challenging, but I had this verydeep sense of purpose.
(07:24):
But I had this very deep senseof purpose.
So it was like I was reallymotivated and some of my
challenges were just my ownemotions, because I felt so many
things that you just kind oftouched on where I felt really
guilty.
I felt really bad that I didn'tknow some of the things that I
know now and I felt like if Ihad been better prepared, there
(07:47):
were so many other students Icould have helped more than I
did.
And I felt anger.
I was angry at myself, I wasangry at others, and I've really
learned to let go of a lot ofthat now and just focus on
improvement and getting betterand just looking forward instead
of looking back.
And I needed help.
It was challenging not havingsome resources and I would do
(08:09):
things like write grants.
I'm so grateful for myprincipal.
Because my principal had toreally trust me when I would
come to her and say, hey, Idon't want to use this in my
classroom, this is why, and hey,can I get to use this in my
classroom, this is why, and hey,can I get this?
Or how about this?
This is why I need these things.
And I feel like she had to goout on a limb a little bit at
(08:32):
first, until she saw the resultsthat I, the results with my
class, and then she reallytrusted me and I really
appreciate that, because havinga supportive admin is huge.
Pam Austin (08:45):
Oh, definitely true.
When I think professionallyabout how we feel when we've
learned, when we know better, wedo better right and going
through those emotions ourselves.
I think there are manyeducators that's been there I'm
one of them as well and it'sjust so heartwarming to hear
that you had that administrativesupport and can move on and
(09:08):
learn more and dive more deeply.
You know now that you arecurrently all in with
science-based reading.
Let's talk about your approachto phonemic awareness and
phonics instruction.
What does that look like?
What can other teachers ofreading learn from your previous
approach compared to whatyou're doing now?
Lindsay Kemeny (09:29):
Okay, well, with phonemic awareness.
It's kind of funny because thefirst thing I had to do was just
learn that it was a thing.
I didn't even know whatphonemic awareness was, that
that was a thing I shouldconsider when I had students who
struggle.
So that was my first move wasjust okay, I've got to teach
phonemic awareness intentionally.
But then, as I learned more, Irefined my knowledge and I
(09:53):
learned that, hey, our sessionsfocused on phonemic awareness.
Those can be brief.
We're talking a few minutes aday and I can really focus on
getting to the phoneme.
We don't need to get stuck withthe larger chunks, but we need
students to be able to get rightto the phoneme level blending
those phonemes to read, pullingapart, segmenting those phonemes
(10:16):
to spell, and I can connect thephonemic awareness with letters
.
So that was an interestingunderstanding too.
That I had to learn was likeyes, we can do a brief, oral
only phonemic awareness warmup,but then I really need to show
them how like that warmup, likethat is exactly what we're doing
(10:37):
when we're reading and writing,and I need to show them how it
connects with letters.
And then with phonicsinstruction.
I like, okay, I would have beenoffended years ago if you were
like, do you teach phonics?
I'd be like, yes, of course.
But when I think back, I wasfacilitating phonics activities.
(11:00):
I wasn't explicitly teachingphonics.
I didn't have any scope andsequence to follow.
I never even considered that Iwasn't explicitly teaching
phonics.
I didn't have any scope andsequence to follow.
I never even considered that.
I would just like what word didthey miss in the book we read
yesterday?
I guess I'll teach that and soand like now, phonics is one of
my favorite things to teach.
It's my strength and it used tobe a huge weakness.
But phonics explicit phonicsinstruction is clear.
(11:25):
It's very interactive.
I'm channeling Dr Anita Archerhere when I say I do something,
they do something.
I say something, they saysomething, I read something,
they read something, I writesomething, they write something.
Right, and I love teachingphonics.
It's just night and day fromwhat it was before.
Pam Austin (11:42):
That openness is what I'm hearing from you to
change and to shift.
I love the word to useintentional, so you
intentionally began teaching,incorporating that phonemic
awareness.
There's another word I alsolove refine.
Quite often teachers, we tendto think because I'm guilty of
it too, the first time I'm doingit it's going to be perfect and
(12:03):
it's got to be good.
And if the kids don't get it, Ididn't do it right.
You know.
Intentional refinement and thatshift, lindsay, from that
incidental phonics to systematicphonics, it's just music to my
ears and it's something that ourlisteners appreciate hearing,
so that we can look at thatconsistency of what the
expectations are.
Lindsay Kemeny (12:22):
Yeah, and I love that word refine too, because I
feel like that's what we'reconstantly doing.
I mean, every year I feel likeI get a little bit better
because I'm refining some areaof my instruction right, and
it's just like there's alwaysmore to learn and more to do and
more ways we can grow.
Pam Austin (12:40):
Definitely, and it never ends.
Refinement never ends.
Let's talk about some decodingstrategies and the importance
when we're decoding to avoid thequeuing system that can be
popular in some places.
Why is decoding instruction socritical for all our young
readers, especially for thosewho struggle, like you mentioned
(13:02):
the struggling parentssituation you have with your son
.
Lindsay Kemeny (13:06):
Yeah, well, okay , in order to store words in
long-term memory for effortless,instant retrieval, what do the
students need to do?
They need to connect the soundsthey hear with the letters they
see on the page, with themeaning of the word.
Those three things have tohappen.
(13:27):
But you think about some ofthose three cueing strategies
that I did for years, wherewe're like look at the picture.
Does it give you a clue whathappens with their eyes?
Their eyes go off the word sofast.
Or read the rest of thesentence.
What would make sense there,where they're figuring it out
from context?
Where do their eyes go?
Are their eyes staying on thewords?
(13:49):
No, I need them to be familiarwith the details of the word and
in order for them to do that,their eyes need to stay on the
word, decode it left from right.
I love that.
Dr Seidenberg said the best cueto a word is the word itself.
I don't need all these otherthings.
I need to direct students tothat word and to decode it.
Pam Austin (14:12):
All right, you have to sit out.
Quote one more time, Lindsay.
We need to hear it again.
Lindsay Kemeny (14:16):
Dr Seidenberg's best cue to a word is the word
itself.
Pam Austin (14:22):
That's music to my ears as well.
Oh, thank you so much forsharing that.
What about?
Sight words, though In yourprevious understanding of them
as well.
Oh, thank you so much forsharing that.
What about sight words, though,right, and your previous
understanding of them?
What do you know about sightwords now, and how do you know
now the impacts of yourinstruction and how is it a
better approach?
Yeah, okay, this is what you'vedone before.
Lindsay Kemeny (14:44):
So what I thought before was that a sight
word is a word that can't besounded out.
That's what I thought.
But you go look at, like thefry frequency or dolch list and
look how many words arecompletely decodable if you just
know your basic alphabet, Imean you're going to have it,
you're going to have in, you'regoing to have, and there's no
(15:06):
reason to teach those wordsseparately and then others will
be decodable.
Once they're taught thatphonics skill, like once they
know TH, then they can read thisand that.
Once they learn that EA spellsE, right, and CH, diagraph
spells CH, then they can readthe word each and then the other
(15:29):
ones.
They will have some irregularity.
But there's also a lot of thesounds or the letters in the
word that are completely regular.
It's like one or two parts thatare hard.
So we don't need to teach themas these visual units, which is
what I did before, where we'rejust memorizing them as a whole.
(15:49):
The problem with that is it'sstored in your memory
differently and there's a limitto how many words you can
memorize as a whole, and so thekindergarten teacher might not
realize there's a problem.
The first grade teacher mightnot realize there's a problem.
It's going to be like thesecond or the third or the
(16:10):
fourth grade teacher when thatstudent can't memorize those
words as a unit anymore, they'vereached their cap.
And then those teachers arelike oh my goodness, the student
phonemic awareness, and so thatis like they can bypass
(16:36):
phonemic awareness by justmemorizing the whole word,
because they don't want to dothat work of breaking down how
the sounds connect with theletters.
So I have a good friend, anadult, who has dyslexia, and
this is how he describedlearning to read when he was
younger.
He's like I memorized words.
That's what I did.
I memorized words and didn'teven realize that those letters
(17:03):
represent the sounds in ourlanguage.
So now when I teachhigh-frequency words, I'm
thinking about that.
Guess what?
Even though it's a highfrequency word, we can segment
those sounds, we can think abouthow they attach with the
spellings, even when they'reirregular, and we can bring in
some etymology and morphology ofthe word, if the student is
(17:23):
ready for it, and show them howthat connects right.
So yeah, just much different.
Pam Austin (17:30):
Right, and that adds an extra layer when you bring
in etymology and morphology forstudents to make a connection
for them.
Awesome, wonderful insight here.
Well, thinking about accuracy,influence, you know, we hear the
word automaticity all the time.
What's the difference betweenaccuracy and fluency and
(17:51):
automaticity?
Isn't that the same thing?
Lindsay Kemeny (17:54):
Okay, All right.
So think of fluency.
Fluency is a combination ofthree things Accuracy, rate and
prosody.
Accuracy is first foremost andforever the foundation of
fluency, as Dr Jan Hasbrook says.
So accuracy is what we'relooking at first.
(18:14):
If that student is reallyinaccurate in the reading, we're
not going to be like readfaster, we're not going to focus
on the rate, we're going to befocusing on the accuracy.
And then you mentionedautomaticity.
So automaticity is acombination of accuracy and rate
, and I heard Dr Hasbrook saidthat automaticity is the heart
(18:35):
and soul of fluency and I reallylike that.
And sometimes, because I'mteaching first grade right now,
sometimes we think in the lowergrades we're not working on
fluency, but we are because weare building that automaticity.
They need automaticity, whichis, remember that accuracy and
(18:56):
the rate.
They need that with the lettersounds.
So the kindergarten teachersworking on letter sounds hey,
that's where our fluency begins,getting those automatic.
Then you can think of fluencyat the word level and then at
the sentence and text level.
So there's so many things thatgo into play.
Pam Austin (19:14):
So multiple layers here, but getting that base
skill of being able to decodeaccurately will lead to that
fluency.
Yeah, all right, I love it.
Thank you so much.
So what are some strategiesreading teachers can implement
to improve accuracy influence?
(19:35):
You mentioned a few things justnow.
Working on those phonics skills.
Is there anything in particularyou would recommend?
Lindsay Kemeny (19:42):
Yeah.
So, yes, like with accuracy,you see they have low accuracy.
That is telling you, hey, we'vegot to strengthen their phonics
.
And well, it could be acombination of phonics and
phonemic awareness, right.
So you're looking at that, payattention to the words they're
missing, because you might seesome patterns like you might see
, oh, they're missing thoseinflectional endings, right, or
(20:04):
those suffixes at the end, likeE-D-I-N-G.
You're thinking, okay, maybe Ineed to practice that with them.
Or you might notice, oh gosh,they keep missing vowel teams.
I've noticed that they don'tknow those vowel teams.
Well then, that's an area where, hey, you can pull out, you can
say, okay, they're missing E-A.
I'm going to do a little lessonwith them.
(20:24):
We're going to practice writingwords with EA.
We're going to spell words withEA.
You can make a little word listto have them practice to
improve that accuracy andfluency.
There's a lot of differentthings I like to do for fluency.
One thing that I love doing,which is something I learned
(20:53):
from Nora Chabazi, which Ichanged the title.
I call it Read, model, readAgain.
So the student reads a portionof the text.
It might be like a paragraph.
If I'm a kindergarten teacher,it might just be a sentence.
The student reads it first.
Then I go back and I read thesame part, so that same page.
And I have them track theirfinger while I read and say, now
listen to me while I read that,and I read it and I'm going to
(21:13):
model appropriate pacing andphrasing expression.
And then they go back and readit again, so they read that same
part again.
I love this because they'regetting another exposure to
those words and they alsothey're better the second time
(21:34):
so they can work.
They're a little more accurate,they're working on their
fluency more the second time andthey'll work on expression.
It's really fun because I'llhear them mimic my expression
when they read it and so I lovethat and it just builds their
confidence because they're like,hey, that was so good my second
they read it and so I love thatand it just builds their
confidence because they're likehey, that was so good my second
time reading it.
And another thing I like to dofor students who they're already
(21:56):
pretty accurate but they coulduse some help improving their
rate.
I never want to say read faster.
I don't want it to be aboutthat, but I love to do something
.
It's got a fancy name, it'scalled the neurological impress
method, but it's just a fancyway of saying read at the same
(22:18):
time as a student.
But you want to read just alittle bit quicker than how they
normally read.
So I will put my finger overthe top of the words and they're
going to track underneath andI'm going to say let's read this
page together, try to keep yourvoice with mine, and then I'm
going to be reading while theyread with me, and so I love to
(22:39):
do that.
And the last thing I'll sharefor fluency I want to share one
more thing.
I love a class-wide fluencyintervention called partner
reading, paragraph shrinking,and I learned this from Dr Burns
, an evidence-based activity forgrades two through eighth grade
(23:02):
.
And wow, my like the results ofthis.
I started it in second gradeand now I am trying to think I'm
not going to remember mynumbers now but our class median
of words, correct per minutelike, went up like maybe 20
words in like two weeks.
(23:22):
It's crazy.
I'd have to go back and lookbecause I'm forgetting the
numbers.
And I do it now in first grade,this activity, but I wait until
January or February and thenusually I'll start them in
decodables before I transferthem in, so, anyway, I could
spend a whole hour just talkingabout partner reading, paragraph
shrinking, but I love doingthat to help fluency as well.
Pam Austin (23:41):
All right, wonderful ideas.
I know our participants areappreciating hearing these
variations.
We're looking at beingdiagnostic and prescriptive and
we're focusing on where studentsare maybe making errors in the
area of decoding and also verytargeted on those fluency
practice opportunities.
I love the variations that youshare.
(24:02):
Thank you so much, lindsay.
Voyager Sopris Learning (24:06):
Voyager Sopris Learning is the reading,
writing and math interventionspecialist With four decades of
results.
We provide evidence-basedinterventions and assessments
that help educators ensureacademic success for all
students.
Learn more at voyagersopriscom.
Lindsay Kemeny (24:30):
Yeah, and can I just chime in Because you were
talking about that practiceExactly, and Dr Pam Kastner said
that if it's been taught butnot mastered, there is probably
a practice gap.
And I love that and I'm alwaysthinking like, as I'm teaching
throughout the day how muchpractice are my students getting
(24:53):
?
Are they getting enough?
If they don't have it, how canI increase the opportunities for
them to practice, with theopportunity for feedback, not
just on their own right, becausethey need that feedback.
Pam Austin (25:04):
Right, the practice gap.
Oh, I love it.
Thank you so much for addingthat.
Yeah, let's shift a little bitfrom.
I'm thinking about practicing.
Quite often there are decodablebooks out there.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe codable readers, those
books that we use for maybe ourbeginning and struggling
students?
How do they fit?
Lindsay Kemeny (25:22):
Yeah, sure, okay .
So the year my son wasdiagnosed is also the first year
I was teaching kindergarten,and I remember being so excited
because you spend all this timeteaching letter names and sounds
and I was so excited to bringmy little kindergartners to my
small group table and say nowyou can read words, I'm going to
(25:43):
show you how you can read books, words, I'm going to show you
how you can read books.
But the books that I had werethose predictable repetitive
books, and so it was like wecleaned up the kitchen, we
cleaned up the garage, wecleaned up the bedroom, and you
think about those books.
They're filled with these soundspelling correspondences that
students have not been taught.
(26:03):
So the only way for them toread those books is to memorize
the pattern and then use thepicture to guess from the
pictures.
And so I remember stopping mystudents and saying oh wait, oh,
you can't sound this one out.
Look at the picture.
Does it give you a clue?
And I was like, oh, like.
(26:24):
I said that all the time when Itaught second grade and I
didn't think anything of it.
And then it was when I wasteaching kindergarten, these
brand new fragile readers, thatI was like I am giving them the
wrong idea of what reading is.
And we just spent all this timepracticing our letter sounds,
and now I want them to practicelike we were teaching them.
(26:45):
And now I want them to practicethe letter sounds.
And I'm asking them to practiceLike we were teaching them.
And now I want them to practicethe letter sounds and I'm
asking them to do somethingcompletely different.
And so I started getting uneasywith what I had been taught, and
one of the first changes I madein my classroom was to get
decodable books.
So now a decodable book has thesound symbol correspondences
(27:07):
that you have taught them.
And let me tell you that, as aformer kindergarten teacher,
even as a first grade teacher,it's a lot easier to listen to a
child read those predictable,repetitive texts because they
sound fluent already, they soundlike they're reading and it
takes a lot more patience tolisten to them slowly sound out
(27:31):
Sat sat.
On the next page it's like thesame word.
They do it again Sat sat.
But that is a critical step.
We cannot skip that step andthey need to go through that
productive struggle to reallysolidify those phonics concepts,
(27:53):
solidify being able to blendthe sounds, and they will take
off in the future.
So it's going to sound a littleslower at the beginning than
the ones who are just memorizing, but the ones who are really
solidifying those concepts.
They're going to become greatreaders because they've got the
foundational skills right.
So I love decodables becausewe're just talking about
(28:14):
practice.
This allows them to practicewhat you're teaching.
Pam Austin (28:18):
That's wonderful, that productive struggle,
slowing down in order toaccelerate later on.
You know, what was runningthrough my mind just now was
application, and sometimes it'snot easy right?
Yeah, yeah.
Lindsay Kemeny (28:30):
But oh, I do want to share.
I remember that kindergartenyear when I got the decodables
Okay, and I had changed rightBecause I had been using
predictable, repetitive text.
I changed to decodables and oneof my little students who he
would later actually bediagnosed with dyslexia, he said
he was reading the Decodableand he yelled and he goes Mrs
(28:51):
Kemeny, I am actually readingthe words and like his joy was
just whoa overflowing and it wasthe best.
But it's also like he knew thedifference.
He knew the difference of whathe was doing before and now.
(29:12):
Oh my gosh, I'm actuallyreading the words.
Pam Austin (29:15):
Wow, true success.
That is beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.
Oh, that is awesome.
So we've been talking a lotabout decoding.
Using those decodable books,students applying the skills
that they're learning.
How can we build vocabulary andbackground knowledge?
What should educators do tobuild these skills in every
(29:37):
lesson and every subject,because they're going to be
learning something new for allof their school-wide career,
right yeah?
Lindsay Kemeny (29:44):
Yeah, okay, this is so important.
We need to be doing this fromthe time they enter our schools
and we don't want to likeover-focus on one side of
Scarborough's reading rope thanthe other.
Right, and so vocabulary andbackground knowledge are part of
those upper strands ofScarborough's reading rope.
Those are critical.
Oral language is the foundationof everything and this is part
(30:07):
of that.
So students can learnvocabulary words implicitly and
explicitly right.
So we should be teachingexplicitly teaching vocabulary
words from the time they enterthe schools.
In addition, we can elevate thelanguage that we're using with
(30:28):
our students because we can usethat advanced vocabulary and
they will start to use it.
I remember when I said to mystudents it's like the beginning
of the year and I said, pleaseget out your anthologies.
And they all looked around whatthe heck is she talking about?
And I'm like an anthology is abig book that has a collection
(30:49):
of many other stories in it.
Can you get out your anthology?
And then it was so fun becausethey started using the word.
Right, so we can definitelyelevate the language and they
will rise to that and it's soimportant because you don't know
if they're being exposed tothat language.
Read-alouds, read-alouds are soimportant because, again,
(31:12):
they're going to be exposed tolanguage that they might not
regularly.
That language in our text ismore advanced than the ones we
use in conversation and this isalso where you're going to be
building that backgroundknowledge just by reading all
kinds of texts about all sortsof different things, both
fascinating nonfiction and richfiction and literature.
(31:36):
So, yeah, we need to beattending to both of those
things, and then I will say itdoesn't mean that we don't teach
strategies or comprehensionstrategies, because we still do
and the strategies are inservice of building that
knowledge, right?
So I'm teaching my students howcan we come up with what the
(31:58):
main gist of this paragraph was,or what was that story about?
I'm going to help them that.
We're going to model monitoring, we're going to summarize,
we're going to do a lot ofdifferent things to deepen our
knowledge.
Pam Austin (32:11):
Right and a lot of oral conversation with that
right.
I love the idea ofincorporating those read-alouds
because I don't think it stopsin the primary grades.
It can move up and up in theuse of that oral language.
Thank you for sharing that aswell.
Lindsay Kemeny (32:25):
Yeah, and just the wide reading too, as
students are ready.
We're not only exposing ouryounger students to decodables
because we're reading aloud tothem and then, as they're ready,
they're transitioning out ofdecodables into regular texts.
For example, my first gradersit's March right now we read
Frog and Toad last week, we'rereading Click Clack Moo this
(32:46):
week.
So we're getting them intoregular text and as they go up
the grades, you're helping themaccess that complex text.
So you're doing a variety ofthings modeling it, choral
reading, partner reading, lotsof things, because they're going
to learn background knowledgeand vocabulary as they're
reading.
Pam Austin (33:04):
Right.
I love, explicitly andimplicitly, two ways that they
gain those skills there.
All right, now we don't want toforget about writing
instruction and comprehension.
I want you to give ourlisteners some ideas of how you
incorporate writing, instructionand comprehension.
How important is that?
Lindsay Kemeny (33:26):
Okay, I could spend an hour talking about
writing instruction with you.
I feel like I've been doing somany more moves around writing
and it's so exciting.
But I love connecting whatwe're writing about to what
we're reading about.
I mean it's reciprocal becauseit's going to deepen their
(33:47):
comprehension of what we'rereading.
Plus, it's going to improvetheir writing and their writing
skills too.
I mean, if you think about whenyou have to write about
something, you really have tounderstand it.
And so when we are reading atext and I might say we're going
to be writing, our writingprompt this week is going to be
about this.
So let's listen, you know, orkind of guide them a little bit.
(34:09):
They're going to be listeningor reading, paying a little more
attention as they read, becausemy students love writing and so
they really they know that it'sgoing to strengthen their
writing if they know a lot aboutthe topic.
So, for example, in our coreprogram we have been learning
and reading.
In our ELA program I shouldspecify we've been learning and
(34:32):
reading about animal habitats,and so last week our prompt I
chose just one of the habitatsthat we were learning about and
our prompt was like explain howArctic animals adapted to their
habitat, and so that was ourprompt and so we were working on
(34:54):
that.
And I want to be clear when Isay that's their prompt, I'm not
just assigning a prompt.
That's what I used to do,that's what I thought, that's
what I thought writing was.
But I'm guiding them andhelping them through that whole
writing process.
We're going to plan our ideas,we're going to organize our
outline and then we're going towrite.
So I helped them with theoutline.
(35:15):
Now they're writing on theirown.
I walk around and circle andhelp and it's amazing to see
it's so neat to write about whatwe're reading.
And then this week it changedthings up.
So last week we were writinginformational, this week we're
writing opinion, and so Imentioned we're reading Click
(35:37):
Clack Moo.
And so my prompt was likeshould Farmer Brown get the
ducks a diving board or not?
And oh, the discussions.
If you came to my first gradeclass, it's so fun because we're
having lots of discussions.
Remember that oral languagetalking I've got different sides
.
Some are like yes, and this iswhy, and some are no, and this
(35:59):
is why.
And so it's so fun because nowwhen we go back and we partner
read that click-clack-moo FarmerBrown, they are really engaged
in that text because they knowthey're also writing about it.
So I just it's kind of neat,it's going to support the
comprehension and the writingand I feel like I keep rambling.
Pam Austin (36:19):
I'm sorry, no, no, no.
This is so exciting to hearreally practical ways you are
applying these strategies andthe idea that you begin with the
oral.
You start with the instruction,that direct guided instruction,
so students truly know andunderstand what they're supposed
to do, and writing from textthat they've read.
Oh, my goodness, I've just readabout this and I get to write
(36:42):
about what I've read.
And one thing that was verytelling you started at the
beginning my students lovewriting, your students love
writing because you arescaffolding and giving them a
direct, explicit instruction andguiding them toward being
successful with writing.
It's a process.
It doesn't happen overnight.
(37:02):
So no I appreciate thelong-winded stories because they
give us some insight on what'sbeen working with you, based on
what you've learned and whatyou've applied in your classroom
, so I think that's verypractical.
Lindsay Kemeny (37:16):
Well, and can I just give a shout out?
I got to give a shout out to DrLeslie Ludd from Think SRSD
because she has really helped me.
She's helped my writing reallycome alive and so I'm so
grateful and my students willcheer when it's time for writing
and that is just like really sospecial.
Pam Austin (37:35):
Oh, yes, that is exciting.
What are some of the mostcritical, maybe the best
evidence-based, most effectiveI'm trying to come up with all
my adjectives here.
What are some moves that youuse that maybe some of our
participants, maybe someone inmy audience, will look I'd like
(37:58):
to try some of these moves thatshe's talking about.
Could you give me maybe two orthree that it would be a good
idea to start with?
If you're doing a shift, you'rechanging your instruction and
you want to have that positiveimpact on students, what would
you suggest?
Lindsay Kemeny (38:16):
So this is really hard for me to answer
because this is going to reallydepend on your students, what
grade you are teaching, yourstrengths as a teacher, what
you're already doing well andwhat you know what's not as
strong.
So for me, because I was firstmaking these moves as a
(38:38):
kindergarten teacher, probablythe most important move for me
was those using decodingstrategies and decodable text
for my kindergartners.
But that move might not be theright move for an upper grade
teacher or someone else, so it'sso hard to answer that I do
(38:59):
understand it.
Pam Austin (38:59):
So even for us, when we think about the instruction
we need to provide, we want tohave some prescriptions, we want
to be diagnostic right For adoctor.
You wouldn't give you someantibiotic for a cold.
It's not the right prescription.
All right, so as we wrap up, Ijust wanted to discuss how
(39:23):
teachers can develop confidencein reading instruction if they
are transitioning toscience-based strategies.
How can they build themselvesup after learning and teaching a
different way in the past?
Lindsay Kemeny (39:32):
Okay, I want to say don't be hard on yourself.
Have grace both with yourselfand grace for others.
We're all at different pointsof our learning journey, like we
all have to start somewhere,right?
So start, begin your journey.
Focus on one thing at a timebecause I know it can feel
(39:56):
overwhelming to be like, oh mygosh, I got to overhaul all my
literacy instruction but chooseone thing, start with the one
thing and then, when you'reready, add something else.
And I would say focus onprogress, not perfection, both
in your teaching and in yourstudents' learning.
Pam Austin (40:17):
Focus on progress, not perfection.
Very good advice, Lindsay.
Well, this has been a wonderfulconversation about the
intricacies and effectivereading instruction supported by
comprehensive research.
You named a lot of researchersand a lot of our gurus of
literacy out there.
(40:37):
You've learned quite a bit fromthem If you heard some of those
names, dive into learning more,as well as your own fascinating
journey.
Lindsay, we want to thank youfor sharing your knowledge and
experience with our audiencetoday.
How can our listeners learnmore about you?
Lindsay Kemeny (40:55):
Well, I'm on social media.
Facebook is Teaching withLindsay Kemeny, so it's a
Facebook page, instagram, and XI'm just, and LinkedIn I'm at
Lindsay Kemeny, I have a website.
And X I'm just.
And LinkedIn I'm at LindsayKemeny.
I have a website,lindsaykemenycom.
And, of course, my book SevenMighty Moves.
I have two of those, and mythird book is Rocky Laracy Block
(41:16):
comes out this summer, so oh,wonderful, thank you for sharing
.
Pam Austin (41:20):
Well, that's it for another great Edview 360 podcast
.
Please join us again and visitvoyageshoprislearningcom slash
edview to learn more about ourwebinars, blogs and other
podcasts.
This has been Pam Austen and wehope to see you all again soon.
Narrator (41:38):
This has been an Edview 360 podcast.
For additionalthought-provoking discussions,
sign up for our blog, webinarand podcast series at
voyagersopriscom.
Slash edview360.
If you enjoyed the show, we'dlove a five-star review wherever
you listen to podcasts and tohelp other people like you find
(42:00):
our show.
Thank you.
Voyager Sopris Learning (42:14):
Voyager Sopris Learning is the reading,
writing and math interventionspecialist With four decades of
results.
We provide evidence-basedinterventions and assessments
that help educators ensureacademic success for all
students.
Learn more at voyagersopriscom.
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