November 13, 2025 • 35 mins
Join us for this insightful and inspiring discussion with a true literacy hero Margaret Goldberg, co-founder of The Right to Read Project. During this podcast, we’ll talk with Goldberg about the next step in the science of reading movement: Educators moving from research consumers to active research participants. While there’s been progress bringing research awareness to classrooms, we now face a moment where the future of reading science depends on practitioner involvement.
This episode examines how educators have moved from implementing prescribed practices to actively seeking evidence-based approaches, and why this momentum can’t stagnate. With uncertain federal support for education research, we must bridge the “last mile” between research and practice—the phase that matters most to students and teachers.
Drawing from personal experiences, this episode reveals what it means to move from research consumer to research contributor, including the moments that change how educators view and engage with scientific evidence. We’ll discuss research-to-practice partnerships and how thinking like a scientist can change classroom implementation.
Listeners will learn:
- Where the science of reading movement stands today
- Why this isn’t another pendulum swing in education
- The importance of bridging the “last mile” between research and practice
- What it feels like to move from research consumer to active participant
- Practical steps for joining research-to-practice partnerships
- How to approach classroom implementation with a scientific mindset
- Why practitioner involvement is essential for sustaining progress
- Strategies for participating in science
Essential listening for educators, administrators, and literacy advocates ready to help shape the future of reading instruction and ensure research continues to benefit students in classrooms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to EdView360.
I want to make sure thatteachers are advocates, that we
are part of the planning processwhen it comes to district
initiatives and stateinitiatives, so that we can
ensure that the planning is donereally well and it will actually
be feasible in our classrooms tomake the kind of changes that
(00:20):
are being discussed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
You just heard from Margaret Goldberg, respected
educator, literacy expert, andco-founder of the Right to Read
Project.
Margaret is our guest on theEdVue360 Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Hello, this is Pam Austin.
Welcome back to the EVU360Podcast Series.
We are so excited to have youwith us today for our latest
literacy conversation.
I'm conducting today's podcastfrom my native New Orleans,
Louisiana.
Before we dive intoconversation, let's take a
moment to introduce our guests,a true force in the literacy
(01:01):
landscape.
Margaret Goldberg is a literacycoach at Niesdrom Elementary
School in California, where sheworks shoulder to shoulder with
educators to align instructionwith the science of reading.
Her career spans classroomteaching, reading intervention,
district leadership, andstatewide coaching initiatives,
including her role as a networkfacilitator for California's
(01:24):
early literacy block grant.
But Margaret's influence reachesfar beyond her school walls.
As co-founder of the Right toRead Project, she's helped
galvanize a national movement ofteachers, researchers, and
advocates committing to equitythrough literacy.
Her work has shaped howeducators think about reading
research, implementation, and amoral imperative of literacy for
(01:48):
all.
Margaret brings not only deepexpertise, but also a rare
ability to translate researchinto practice with clarity,
compassion, and conviction.
Today we'll explore howeducators can move from being
consumers of research to activecontributors and why that shift
(02:10):
is essential for sustainingprogress in the science of
reading movement.
Because that's where we are,right, Margaret?
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Sounds good.
That was probably the nicestintroduction I have ever heard.
I need to swim away, but herethank you.
SPEAKER_03 (02:25):
It just reflects you and who you are.
Margaret, you've been called aliteracy hero.
Can you share what first drewyou to the science of reading
and what keeps you committedtoday?
SPEAKER_02 (02:38):
Well, I'm first and foremost, I'm a teacher.
I was teaching for about 10years or so.
And around 2015, I started torealize there was something off
about the instruction that I wasdoing.
I was using a balance literacyprogram.
And I started to realize thatsomething wasn't quite working
for the students that I wassupporting and the teachers I
(03:00):
was trying to help at my school.
And once I started askingquestions, I kind of couldn't
stop.
I began to learn about this vastbody of research and about how
reading skill is acquired andabout how reading is best
taught.
And I found myself gettingreally upset that the
information I was learninghadn't been given to me in
teacher preparation or in thePDs that I was receiving from
(03:23):
teachers college and otherproviders from my district, from
curriculum publishers.
So I really wanted to try tofigure out like how do I get
this information that I'mlearning out there to other
teachers.
And that journey that I was onwas captured in Emily Hanford's
podcast at a loss for words.
And from there, I just felt moreconnected to more and more
(03:43):
teachers and educators who arereaching out to me.
So I'm still learning.
I'm learning about how to teachcomprehension and about how to
teach writing.
I'm certain that I'm gonna staycommitted for as long as I'm
learning because I feel thisneed to try to disseminate the
information to ensure that allof our kids learn how to read.
SPEAKER_03 (04:01):
And it starts with asking questions, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:04):
It does.
And once you start, you kind ofcan stop.
SPEAKER_03 (04:07):
Right.
No, I do understand.
Well, the Right to Read projecthas become this powerful voice
in literacy advocacy.
What inspired this founding?
And how is its mission evolvedover time?
SPEAKER_02 (04:24):
So I was actually working in this balanced
literacy school district, and Iwas learning about all these
things that just weren't quiteright with the initiative.
My job was to be a literacycoach and to be an
interventionist, and theneventually to do district level
work running a pilot of schools.
And what I realized was thatwhat I was learning was engiving
(04:48):
with the balanced literacyinitiative of the district.
And at one point in time,district leadership gave me the
set of talking points, and theywere like, you need to stay on
message.
And the talking points includedthings like, we will not engage
in judgment of the three queuingmethod, even if we've learned
differently.
And we will not actively tellstaff to stop using guided
(05:11):
reading.
And I was like, I can't do this.
Like, I can't honor thesetalking points.
So basically the Read to Readproject was born out of
necessity because I needed tofigure out a way to obviously
distinguish when I was workingas a district employee and was
responsible for staying ondistrict messaging, and when I
was actually free to share whatI was learning about the science
(05:34):
of reading.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Free to share.
What a term.
That disconnect that tookcourage as well, wouldn't you
say, Margaret?
SPEAKER_02 (05:41):
Uh well, at first I wasn't all that courageous
because it was anonymous.
It started as like an anonymousblog where I was writing about
what I was learning and justtrying to like share
information.
And then that anonymity wastaken away from me because
Reading Rockets reached out andwe were like, we'd like to run
your blog.
So can we do that?
(06:01):
You need to have a name and apicture attached to it.
And that's, I think, where Istarted to realize, oh, I have
to be a little braver than theway I feel inside.
So yeah, so I did.
And then from there, once it wasclear that I was a teacher and
the mission of the organizationis to bring teachers like me
with the advocates that I wasmeeting, because I was starting
(06:22):
to meet people who arepassionate from decoding
dyslexia, from the NAACP, likebringing those people together.
And then also the researcherswho are super eager to connect
their work with classroompractice.
So it was like this way oftrying to bring everybody
together in service of one goalto ensure that all of our kids
get their civil right to read.
(06:44):
And I think you asked, like, howhas it changed over time?
And that's interesting becauseI, when I look back, I feel like
in the early days, it was aboutlike just building this basic
level of awareness.
Like there is this vast body ofresearch that teachers don't
know about.
Here are some of the basics ofit.
But now that's been prettycracked open.
(07:06):
Like even the general public hasheard about the term, the
science of reading.
So it's allowed our organizationto shift our focus a little bit
more.
Instead of just raisingawareness, now it's about like
more deeply understanding theresearch and more deeply
understanding how it can impactclassroom instruction.
SPEAKER_03 (07:23):
All right.
That is wonderful to hear.
As I'm listening to you, I wasthinking how powerful.
And it's the power of truth,right?
And what works.
You can't put that back in thebox as soon as it grows.
And take a look at the peoplethat you've been connected to to
help that growth and pull youalong to do the work that you're
doing, an awareness, and thenmoving on to that deep level of
(07:46):
impact.
That is just so great to hearyou just detailed in that way.
As you said, it's out the boxnow.
And there are so many who arefamiliar with the science of
reading, that body of readingresearch.
But then here we're looking atfewer people themselves see
themselves as maybe contributingto that.
(08:08):
How does it shift into practice?
How do they use, take thatawareness and transfer it to
that impact on their studentsand an impact on their teaching?
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
Yeah, so there's kind of this idea of teachers
being consumers of readingresearch, like we are supposed
to absorb the knowledge that hasbeen generated by scientists,
cognitive scientists,neuroscientists, speech and
language pathologists who aredoing research, all that stuff.
And like we're supposed tosomehow make sense of it on our
own.
But I really want to try toshift that and start thinking
(08:41):
about how teachers canparticipate in the research
process so that we can make surethat we get our questions
answered and that we know how tomake sense of the findings.
And I feel like that starts withthe issue of our training.
So teachers are typicallytrained to do things like
inquiry projects or like casestudies that are focused on
(09:03):
observational data.
And that's important, likeabsolutely.
And I've come to learn thatthere's this value to larger
scale studies that focus onobjective data points.
And that was a new area oflearning for me.
So I need to learn aboutconcepts that hadn't been taught
in my teacher preparationprogram, like about statistical
(09:25):
significance, which tells uswhether or not results are just
due to chance.
Cause a lot of times you'llnotice something happening in
the classroom and you can'tactually put your finger on like
why that's happening.
So when studies are analyzingthe data to determine
statistical significance,they're able to say, like,
concretely, we are very surethat this is a cause and an
effect.
(09:46):
The other one that I've gottenreally focused on is educational
significance, because justbecause sometimes there's a sign
of growth there, that doesn'tmean it's actually a worthwhile
thing for us to pursue asclassroom teachers.
Educational significance, itconsiders factors like cost and
the resources and the time.
(10:07):
And it lets us determine whetheror not like the actual impact on
student learning is worth oureffort.
So as I've been learning aboutthese things that I had not been
taught in teacher preparation,I've begun to have like a lot
more empathy for researchers andto understand how much work it
takes to develop good studies,to run and analyze the studies.
(10:30):
It helps me better understandthe hoops that they have to go
through.
It's also helped me to consumeresearch in a different way
because I'm able to see likewhat are the things that are
settled science when it comes toreading instruction, and then
what are the areas that actuallyrequire more research.
SPEAKER_03 (10:48):
Right.
So really looking at what'shappening behind the scenes
itself in the research, but atthe same time getting teachers
involved more actively.
So right now we can say thatmaybe we're passive participants
when a research is being done,but becoming more active
participants in a variety ofways.
(11:08):
But you're so right, it willtake knowing and understanding
and getting more professionallearning in that area.
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Yeah, it's like we need teachers to be able to ask
teacher-y questions and get goodresearch answers back.
And then we also need to be ableto understand when research is
delivering answers, how do wemake sense of that?
SPEAKER_03 (11:30):
What is worth our effort and pursuing?
That is just wonderful.
Thank you so much.
That is a different avenue tolook at things now that we
understand what the research is,how do we digest it?
How do we consume it and use itin a meaningful way on a regular
basis?
Thinking about educators as awhole.
We might have somemisconceptions here and there,
just like we had somemisconceptions about how we
(11:54):
teach reading.
Thinking about how they mightparticipate maybe in this
research.
You mentioned some things thatyou are understanding now.
What were some of the barriersmaybe from before that you
didn't understand that made youingest it differently now?
How do we demystify the process?
SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
Yeah, so part of it is this need for a common
language.
There's a lot of terms that areused in research that are not
familiar to teachers.
And then there are also termsthat teachers use that are not
familiar to research.
So sometimes we are like missingeach other in our conversations.
So there's this need for acommon language.
There's also a need forunderstanding what research has
(12:39):
been done already and why.
So, for example, one of the bigmisconceptions I hear about the
science of reading is a lot ofpeople think that it is limited
to phonics.
And so, like if you know aboutteaching explicit systematic
phonics, you've got the scienceof reading down, you're good to
go.
And that is such amisconception.
I didn't realize the amount ofresearch that had actually been
(13:01):
done on language development andon comprehension.
So when I first started gettinginto being more active in the
science of reading, it wasbecause my now research partner,
Tiffany Hogan, who's a speechand language pathologist, she
was telling me about this hugegovernmental initiative that I
knew nothing about.
It was the Reading forUnderstanding research
(13:23):
initiative.
And it was enormous governmentalinvestment in trying to
understand how do we improvestudents' reading comprehension.
So it was like over a hundredmillion dollars that went into
it and like hundreds ofpublications that were produced
by the Reading for UnderstandingInitiative.
And most teachers don't knowanything about it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:45):
Because it stayed in the realm of research and has it
been disseminated for us.
SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
Exactly.
And so one of the reasons why Ilove my research partner so much
is that Tiffany is willing to beable to think critically about
like where have we misstepped asresearchers?
What are some things that weneed to do to improve the
transmission of information?
And so we were talking about howone of the outputs of the
Reading for Understandinginitiative was curriculum.
(14:11):
It was researcher-designedlanguage comprehension
curriculum.
And so they developed thesegreat lessons.
They found out that theyactually really work.
They were seeing studentsincrease in their language
abilities on objective measures.
And so they're like, this isgreat.
We've done our job.
We're going to post it openaccess on the internet, and
teachers are going to be able tofind it.
(14:33):
And what actually happened isthat without a big marketing
budget, there is nobody who isdisseminating the lesson plans.
And as a result, teachers didn'tknow anything about them.
And so they kind of sat on awebsite there.
And so I think one of the thingsthat we need to think more
critically about is we can'tassume that just because
(14:55):
researchers are researching andthey're putting their findings
out in peer-reviewed journals oron websites for teachers to
access, that teachers know tolook for it and then know how to
use those things.
So we need to get better at thedissemination part for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Yes.
Is this what you would call yourlast mile between research and
practice?
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Yeah, I suppose it is.
Like, I think one of the thingsthat comes to mind when I think
about the last mile is thatwe've done a whole lot of
research to try to figure outlike the efficacy of instruction
and of interventions.
That means that we know whatworks out in ideal
(15:37):
circumstances.
So when the circumstances areright, when the conditions are
great, the dosage of theinstruction is high, the
implementation matches thedesign that was planned for the
intervention.
Like we know quite a lot aboutefficacy.
But we have so much less when itcomes to effectiveness trials,
which are actually the kind ofresearch that happens in the
(16:00):
wild.
So we still have so much tolearn about what we need to do
to ensure that school systems,like school districts, are going
to be able to reliably produceskilled readers.
So we don't know enough aboutwhat's needed in order to make
effective practices the norm.
We don't know enough about howto ensure that teachers pick up
(16:22):
those practices and sustainusing them.
What curriculum and training isneeded to make sure that average
teachers get really goodresults?
When I think about the lastmile, it's the like, what do we
need to do to ensure that kidsbecome readers in our school
system, not just hypotheticallyor in specific trials?
SPEAKER_03 (16:43):
Right.
So those effective trials willbe the types of strategies or
frameworks that have been shownto work in various types of
environments.
Is that what you're saying?
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SPEAKER_02 (17:33):
Yeah, and I think that one of the things that I'm
really excited about when itcomes to research to practice
partnerships is that whatteachers have is a deep
understanding of our setting.
We know what our classrooms arelike.
We know what it's like to try tomanage classroom management at
the same time that you're tryingto implement effective
strategies.
We know how much planning timewe've got.
(17:55):
So we know like we need to teachmath and science and reading and
writing and all of these things.
So we know the parameters thatare in place.
And if we can help researchersunderstand those parameters,
then they're better able tocreate studies that are of use
to us, which makes it easier forus to then apply those findings
(18:15):
to our instruction.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
Right, very good.
Speaking of parameters andthinking about teachers want
practical.
Show me what it is that hasworked, show me how to do it,
how can I tweak it so it worksin my situation?
What are some practical wayswhen I think just overall the
educators can bridge that gapfrom the research to the schools
(18:39):
to the classrooms in districtsacross the country?
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
Yeah, and I love that you use that word gap to
try to describe it because Ifeel like we've got at least two
gaps.
We've got thisresearch-to-practice gap, which
has gotten a lot of attention,where there's this vast body of
research and it wasn't filteringinto the curriculum and the
instruction that teachers wereusing.
But we also have thispractice-to-research gap where
(19:06):
researchers may not know enoughabout what is happening in
schools to be able to do thekind of research that will then
become widely applicable toclassrooms everywhere.
So I think the responsibilitylies on both sides of things.
It's important for researchersto try to get involved into
their local school systems to beable to conduct research in
(19:29):
environments that they canincreasingly learn about.
I also think when teachers havethe capacity, we should be
reaching out to researchers aswell.
So, I mean, for me personally, Iwas listening to a podcast and
someone had sent it to me andwas like, Tiffany Hogan was
talking about a blog that youwrote.
Just wanted to let you listen toit.
(19:50):
And I listened to it and I waslike, she's talking about this
thing, like, bring a scientistto school day.
This is fascinating.
I'm gonna call her bluff.
Like, let's see.
Like, does she actually reallywant to come to school?
So I sent her an email and I waslike, I was listening to this.
It sounds like you're reallyinterested in understanding what
(20:10):
teachers are doing and workingwith us.
Are you interested in talking?
And what I learned was she wasnot bluffing.
She did actually want to engagein our research to practice
partnership.
So that kind of reaching out andsaying, I was listening to you,
I'm curious about it.
Would you be willing to talkwith me more?
Talk with the teachers at myschool, teachers in my district.
(20:33):
Sometimes you don't get aresponse at all.
Not everybody is a Tiffany.
Sometimes their inboxes are fulland they don't have the capacity
to take on that work.
But a lot of times you doactually get a response, and
people will actually be excitedabout the idea of explaining
their research directly toteachers.
From there, sometimes you canask about their upcoming
(20:54):
projects and see if there's someoverlap between the needs that
your students have and theresearch that's being conducted
and see if there's actually soclose of a match that you can be
part of their upcoming study.
SPEAKER_03 (21:08):
Oh, that's wonderful.
So, this whole idea of gettingthe researchers to think like
teachers and then having theteachers think like researchers,
right?
We want our teachers to thinklike scientists so that they're
both fine-tuning.
They're fine, the researchersare fine-tuning the research,
and the teachers are fine-tuningtheir practice of teaching their
(21:30):
students to get the biggest bangfor your buck, right?
How do we get our teachers tothink like a scientist?
Can you share any examples ofhow that mindset shapes
instruction?
SPEAKER_02 (21:45):
Or yeah, so I was actually just talking with a
newer career teacher the otherday about how when you first
start teaching, it's likethere's just so much to manage,
and you're trying to think like,what do I do next?
What do I say next in thismoment?
It feels like everything isgoing very fast, and sometimes
it feels a little bit out ofcontrol.
But when you get to be a moreexperienced teacher and
(22:08):
classroom management is feelingstronger, things seem to slow
down.
It's like the whole game slowsdown and you're able to see the
variables that are in place.
And so one of the next stepsthat we can take is shifting our
focus from like looking atindividual students and being
like, what about the student doI need to know?
(22:29):
And instead start thinking aboutlike, I know my students, I know
what I'm trying to do.
So, what about the interactionbetween the curriculum and the
instruction and my students andthe learning environment?
What about those things can Ialter so that students will
learn?
And so you start thinking aboutthem, those factors as variables
(22:51):
where you can turn up the volumeon things like opportunities for
practice, or you can turn up thevolume on trying to make sure
that you are providing the mostexplicit instruction possible so
that there's no room for doubtfor kids to understand exactly
what you're asking them to do.
I feel like the shift thathappens for teachers, if we're
(23:12):
going to start thinking like ascientist in the classroom, is
looking at the variables thatare within our control and
starting to tweak thosevariables so that we get the
outcomes that we want.
It starts to seem more like anexperiment than an art in some
way.
It's not that the art is gone,but it's a different way of
thinking about it and adifferent way of thinking about
(23:32):
your role in this interactionwith curriculum and with
students.
SPEAKER_03 (23:37):
Does that make sense?
Yes, it does because the endresult is student success,
right?
Yeah.
I love that you focus on theinteraction.
What is it that you can do toget the best results for your
students, that explicitinstruction?
What's what is it that I can doto get that end result that I'm
(23:58):
seeking?
And all teachers want theirstudents to learn.
Absolutely.
That's beautiful.
I love the way you said that,Margaret.
Are there any particularstrategies that you've seen work
to keep the momentum and theexcitement about, oh, now I know
what it is that I need to do.
I understand the research.
I'm going to put this intopractice.
(24:21):
How do we keep that momentumalive, especially right now when
resources and constraints orcompeting priorities are in
place?
And we know that happenseverywhere in every school
across our country.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
Yeah, I think part of the problem that we're
experiencing in a lot ofdifferent places is that
teachers are kind of all on ourown trying to figure things out.
So we're trying to read Facebookposts that are about the science
of reading and find journalarticles that will start to
answer some of our questions.
And we're listening to podcastsand we're watching webinars and
(24:56):
we're doing all of this.
And what can actually happen iseach teacher in a school
building starts approachinginstruction in his or her own
way.
And the result for kids is apiecemeal of instruction, so
that there becomes a lack ofthrough line from kindergarten
to first grade to second gradeto third grade.
(25:17):
And if what we're trying to dois actually ensure that every
kid becomes a skilled reader, weneed alignment across the grade
levels in a school.
Because it takes longer than 180days, which is how long we have
in one school year in mydistrict.
It takes longer than 180 days toensure a skilled reader.
So what it ends up coming downto is good leadership at the
(25:39):
school level, at the districtlevel, and hopefully we'll get
there at the state level.
But it means having a visionthat we're all aligned with.
It means that we all have thiswillingness to prioritize, to
make sure that reading is alwaysa focus of every school day and
of our time that we havetogether for collaboration, for
(25:59):
planning, for staff meetings, etcetera.
And then it takes goodleadership to protect that time
that is for literacyinstruction, to protect our
focus from competing priorities.
One of the things that has beenreally powerful at my school is
just norming on the fact thatevery kid will get taught to
read every single day at school.
(26:21):
There is nothing that is goingto interrupt our dedicated
literacy block.
And I don't think that we'regoing to be able to get such
great results unless we've gotreally great leadership that is
bringing all of our energytogether, harnessing it, and
then making sure that we'rerunning in step together.
SPEAKER_03 (26:40):
Harnessing it.
I love that phrase.
Just the idea of workingtogether is so important.
You talk about equity, andequity, this is just a
paraphrasing, Dr.
Anita Archer, is that quality ofinstruction for all in every
class, every day, is what we'relooking at.
And I know Wright's Reprojectemphasizes equity through
(27:03):
literacy.
How does implementation scienceintersect with that equity in
the work that you do?
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
I feel like this is an issue where it's like if
we're relying on teachersseeking out training, relying on
teachers paying for their ownprofessional development,
effective instruction is nevergoing to reach our most
vulnerable students.
Schools that have high teacherturnover, that have fewer
resources, that have greaterimplementation challenge are
(27:33):
always going to have to defy allthe odds in order to get good
results.
So I focus more now onimplementation science, which is
about systematic change.
It's about ensuring thateffective implementation happens
in a school building, happens inhopefully at the district level,
because leaders create theseenabling conditions that allow
(27:55):
effective instruction to happenin every classroom, regardless
of the level of experience ofthe teacher, regardless of the
teacher's capacity to seek outlearning on his or her own.
I think that what it's going totake to ensure that all students
become good readers is thinkingabout the kids who are most
dependent on school to becomeskilled readers.
(28:17):
How do we make sure that theyget their needs met, despite the
conditions that we know are inplace in typically higher
poverty schools, where there's alot more turnover of teachers,
of staff, where you need to tryto figure out how do we ensure
really solid foundation baselinelevel of teaching in order to
make sure that every kid is ableto make at least a year's worth
(28:40):
of progress every year thatthey're in school.
SPEAKER_03 (28:43):
All right.
So much to think about.
You said defy the odds.
So much needs to be in place todefy the odds, right?
When we're looking at knowledgefrom the teacher, uh being able
to implement what they'velearned, having a structure
there and that support, thosepartnerships are so important.
When we think about all thethings you've discussed, what is
(29:05):
that one thing, that one stepthat educators can take tomorrow
to become more engaged in thescience of reading movement?
SPEAKER_02 (29:14):
I think it's the step that I keep taking over and
over again, which is talking toother teachers about what you're
learning.
The more that we're able to talkwith our colleagues and our
school building about what we'relearning and what we're trying,
the more we can try to rope inour principal or district
leadership and talking aboutwhat we're learning, the more we
can create this collaborativeenvironment where it becomes
(29:37):
safe to try new things, wherethere's some accountability to
make sure that those things workbecause we're helping each other
fine-tune our practice,opportunities to look at data
together to be able to see howthose choices that we're making
are paying off our students.
The thing that I come back toover and over again is the step
that we need to do is bringother people along.
(30:00):
With us and our learning so thatour impact is able to spread.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
All right, wonderful.
Discuss, share, refine, repeat,and pull in more people and do
it again.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
We need everybody in this big job.
SPEAKER_03 (30:14):
Yes, it is a very big job.
I agree with you there, but itcan be done.
We will defy the odds.
Well, what gives you hope rightnow about the future of literacy
instruction?
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
I feel pretty cautiously optimistic, both
optimistic, because I feel liketeachers are seeking out
information more than everbefore.
We're trying to learn abouteffective literacy instruction.
And this is happening at a timewhen districts and states are
actually putting in place earlyliteracy legislation.
(30:47):
So for example, I'm inCalifornia and this is the first
year ever that there has been arequirement for universal
screening so that all primarygrade teachers will administer
an assessment to find outreading risk amongst their
students.
That's a huge step forward.
So I feel optimistic becausethere's this chance that
(31:07):
teachers and our curiosity willactually be met by leadership at
district and state levels.
So that together there's achance of us being able to
implement well.
When I feel cautious, it'sbecause I worry about sometimes
there's a lack of communicationin that planning process.
So I want to make sure thatteachers are advocates, that we
(31:30):
are part of the planning processwhen it comes to district
initiatives and stateinitiatives, so that we can
ensure that the planning is donereally well and it will actually
be feasible in our classrooms tomake the kind of changes that
are being discussed.
SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
Wonderful.
Hope in conjunction with whatyou do over and over again, talk
to teachers, keep thatcommunication going.
Lastly, how can our listenerslearn more about your work with
the Right to Read project?
SPEAKER_02 (31:59):
Oh, thanks for asking.
Well, you can always read aboutwhat we're thinking.
So we have a blog that has tonsof posts on it.
So you can always read aboutwhat's brewing in our minds now.
You can also look on our websiteto see the resources that we've
developed.
So, for example, there's thesevideos that are there that we
designed for kids to be able tolearn about the science of
(32:22):
reading.
So, like at my school, we showthese brain builder videos to
kids at the start of each schoolyear so that they understand
more about what's going on intheir brains as they're learning
to read, as they're developingfluency with their reading,
understanding what rolevocabulary plays in their
reading or phonics plays intheir reading.
So there's resources there thatare for kids, for teachers, for
(32:44):
advocates.
Another thing that I mightsuggest is that everybody is
totally welcome to email and askto be a part of the lunch and
let.
It's a space that is intendedfor educators and researchers.
So if you fall into one of thosetwo categories.
On Fridays, we have pretty muchweekly meetings where people
(33:05):
will present research thatthey're conducting and get
feedback from practitionersabout how that is landing with
them.
Or the reverse can be true,where we have practitioners who
are posing problems of practiceto get answered by researchers.
So that's called the lunch andlunch.
And there's information on ourwebsite about how to request to
join those pretty much weeklymeetings to be able to bring
(33:28):
together research and practicein one safe space to ask
questions.
SPEAKER_03 (33:35):
All right.
This sounds like you've got itactively going already.
That partnership betweenresearchers and teachers, very
inspiring.
Thank you so much, Margaret, forsharing.
I'm sure that you've inspiredteachers to reach out and learn
a little bit more and dive intobeing an advocate themselves of
being that, to think like, to bean advocate themselves, to think
(33:58):
like a scientist, is where I wasgoing with that one.
Thank you, Margaret.
This has been such a wonderfullyinformative and insightful
conversation.
We thank you for sharing yourknowledge and experience with
our audience today.
That's it for another greatEdu360 podcast.
Please join us again next monthand visit VoyagerSopris.com
(34:20):
slash Edview to learn about ourwebinars, blogs, and other
podcasts.
This is Pam Austin, and we hopeto see you all again very soon.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
This has been an Edview 360 podcast.
For additional thought-provokingdiscussions, sign up for our
blog, webinar, and podcastseries at Voyager Sopras.com
slash Edview360.
If you enjoyed the show, we'dlove a five-star review wherever
you listen to podcasts and tohelp other people like you find
(34:54):
our show.
Thank you.
Welcome to EdView360.
I want to make sure thatteachers are advocates, that we
are part of the planning processwhen it comes to district
initiatives and stateinitiatives, so that we can
ensure that the planning is donereally well and it will actually
be feasible in our classrooms tomake the kind of changes that
(00:20):
are being discussed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
You just heard from Margaret Goldberg, respected
educator, literacy expert, andco-founder of the Right to Read
Project.
Margaret is our guest on theEdVue360 Podcast.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Hello, this is Pam Austin.
Welcome back to the EVU360Podcast Series.
We are so excited to have youwith us today for our latest
literacy conversation.
I'm conducting today's podcastfrom my native New Orleans,
Louisiana.
Before we dive intoconversation, let's take a
moment to introduce our guests,a true force in the literacy
(01:01):
landscape.
Margaret Goldberg is a literacycoach at Niesdrom Elementary
School in California, where sheworks shoulder to shoulder with
educators to align instructionwith the science of reading.
Her career spans classroomteaching, reading intervention,
district leadership, andstatewide coaching initiatives,
including her role as a networkfacilitator for California's
(01:24):
early literacy block grant.
But Margaret's influence reachesfar beyond her school walls.
As co-founder of the Right toRead Project, she's helped
galvanize a national movement ofteachers, researchers, and
advocates committing to equitythrough literacy.
Her work has shaped howeducators think about reading
research, implementation, and amoral imperative of literacy for
(01:48):
all.
Margaret brings not only deepexpertise, but also a rare
ability to translate researchinto practice with clarity,
compassion, and conviction.
Today we'll explore howeducators can move from being
consumers of research to activecontributors and why that shift
(02:10):
is essential for sustainingprogress in the science of
reading movement.
Because that's where we are,right, Margaret?
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Sounds good.
That was probably the nicestintroduction I have ever heard.
I need to swim away, but herethank you.
SPEAKER_03 (02:25):
It just reflects you and who you are.
Margaret, you've been called aliteracy hero.
Can you share what first drewyou to the science of reading
and what keeps you committedtoday?
SPEAKER_02 (02:38):
Well, I'm first and foremost, I'm a teacher.
I was teaching for about 10years or so.
And around 2015, I started torealize there was something off
about the instruction that I wasdoing.
I was using a balance literacyprogram.
And I started to realize thatsomething wasn't quite working
for the students that I wassupporting and the teachers I
(03:00):
was trying to help at my school.
And once I started askingquestions, I kind of couldn't
stop.
I began to learn about this vastbody of research and about how
reading skill is acquired andabout how reading is best
taught.
And I found myself gettingreally upset that the
information I was learninghadn't been given to me in
teacher preparation or in thePDs that I was receiving from
(03:23):
teachers college and otherproviders from my district, from
curriculum publishers.
So I really wanted to try tofigure out like how do I get
this information that I'mlearning out there to other
teachers.
And that journey that I was onwas captured in Emily Hanford's
podcast at a loss for words.
And from there, I just felt moreconnected to more and more
(03:43):
teachers and educators who arereaching out to me.
So I'm still learning.
I'm learning about how to teachcomprehension and about how to
teach writing.
I'm certain that I'm gonna staycommitted for as long as I'm
learning because I feel thisneed to try to disseminate the
information to ensure that allof our kids learn how to read.
SPEAKER_03 (04:01):
And it starts with asking questions, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:04):
It does.
And once you start, you kind ofcan stop.
SPEAKER_03 (04:07):
Right.
No, I do understand.
Well, the Right to Read projecthas become this powerful voice
in literacy advocacy.
What inspired this founding?
And how is its mission evolvedover time?
SPEAKER_02 (04:24):
So I was actually working in this balanced
literacy school district, and Iwas learning about all these
things that just weren't quiteright with the initiative.
My job was to be a literacycoach and to be an
interventionist, and theneventually to do district level
work running a pilot of schools.
And what I realized was thatwhat I was learning was engiving
(04:48):
with the balanced literacyinitiative of the district.
And at one point in time,district leadership gave me the
set of talking points, and theywere like, you need to stay on
message.
And the talking points includedthings like, we will not engage
in judgment of the three queuingmethod, even if we've learned
differently.
And we will not actively tellstaff to stop using guided
(05:11):
reading.
And I was like, I can't do this.
Like, I can't honor thesetalking points.
So basically the Read to Readproject was born out of
necessity because I needed tofigure out a way to obviously
distinguish when I was workingas a district employee and was
responsible for staying ondistrict messaging, and when I
was actually free to share whatI was learning about the science
(05:34):
of reading.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Free to share.
What a term.
That disconnect that tookcourage as well, wouldn't you
say, Margaret?
SPEAKER_02 (05:41):
Uh well, at first I wasn't all that courageous
because it was anonymous.
It started as like an anonymousblog where I was writing about
what I was learning and justtrying to like share
information.
And then that anonymity wastaken away from me because
Reading Rockets reached out andwe were like, we'd like to run
your blog.
So can we do that?
(06:01):
You need to have a name and apicture attached to it.
And that's, I think, where Istarted to realize, oh, I have
to be a little braver than theway I feel inside.
So yeah, so I did.
And then from there, once it wasclear that I was a teacher and
the mission of the organizationis to bring teachers like me
with the advocates that I wasmeeting, because I was starting
(06:22):
to meet people who arepassionate from decoding
dyslexia, from the NAACP, likebringing those people together.
And then also the researcherswho are super eager to connect
their work with classroompractice.
So it was like this way oftrying to bring everybody
together in service of one goalto ensure that all of our kids
get their civil right to read.
(06:44):
And I think you asked, like, howhas it changed over time?
And that's interesting becauseI, when I look back, I feel like
in the early days, it was aboutlike just building this basic
level of awareness.
Like there is this vast body ofresearch that teachers don't
know about.
Here are some of the basics ofit.
But now that's been prettycracked open.
(07:06):
Like even the general public hasheard about the term, the
science of reading.
So it's allowed our organizationto shift our focus a little bit
more.
Instead of just raisingawareness, now it's about like
more deeply understanding theresearch and more deeply
understanding how it can impactclassroom instruction.
SPEAKER_03 (07:23):
All right.
That is wonderful to hear.
As I'm listening to you, I wasthinking how powerful.
And it's the power of truth,right?
And what works.
You can't put that back in thebox as soon as it grows.
And take a look at the peoplethat you've been connected to to
help that growth and pull youalong to do the work that you're
doing, an awareness, and thenmoving on to that deep level of
(07:46):
impact.
That is just so great to hearyou just detailed in that way.
As you said, it's out the boxnow.
And there are so many who arefamiliar with the science of
reading, that body of readingresearch.
But then here we're looking atfewer people themselves see
themselves as maybe contributingto that.
(08:08):
How does it shift into practice?
How do they use, take thatawareness and transfer it to
that impact on their studentsand an impact on their teaching?
SPEAKER_02 (08:19):
Yeah, so there's kind of this idea of teachers
being consumers of readingresearch, like we are supposed
to absorb the knowledge that hasbeen generated by scientists,
cognitive scientists,neuroscientists, speech and
language pathologists who aredoing research, all that stuff.
And like we're supposed tosomehow make sense of it on our
own.
But I really want to try toshift that and start thinking
(08:41):
about how teachers canparticipate in the research
process so that we can make surethat we get our questions
answered and that we know how tomake sense of the findings.
And I feel like that starts withthe issue of our training.
So teachers are typicallytrained to do things like
inquiry projects or like casestudies that are focused on
(09:03):
observational data.
And that's important, likeabsolutely.
And I've come to learn thatthere's this value to larger
scale studies that focus onobjective data points.
And that was a new area oflearning for me.
So I need to learn aboutconcepts that hadn't been taught
in my teacher preparationprogram, like about statistical
(09:25):
significance, which tells uswhether or not results are just
due to chance.
Cause a lot of times you'llnotice something happening in
the classroom and you can'tactually put your finger on like
why that's happening.
So when studies are analyzingthe data to determine
statistical significance,they're able to say, like,
concretely, we are very surethat this is a cause and an
effect.
(09:46):
The other one that I've gottenreally focused on is educational
significance, because justbecause sometimes there's a sign
of growth there, that doesn'tmean it's actually a worthwhile
thing for us to pursue asclassroom teachers.
Educational significance, itconsiders factors like cost and
the resources and the time.
(10:07):
And it lets us determine whetheror not like the actual impact on
student learning is worth oureffort.
So as I've been learning aboutthese things that I had not been
taught in teacher preparation,I've begun to have like a lot
more empathy for researchers andto understand how much work it
takes to develop good studies,to run and analyze the studies.
(10:30):
It helps me better understandthe hoops that they have to go
through.
It's also helped me to consumeresearch in a different way
because I'm able to see likewhat are the things that are
settled science when it comes toreading instruction, and then
what are the areas that actuallyrequire more research.
SPEAKER_03 (10:48):
Right.
So really looking at what'shappening behind the scenes
itself in the research, but atthe same time getting teachers
involved more actively.
So right now we can say thatmaybe we're passive participants
when a research is being done,but becoming more active
participants in a variety ofways.
(11:08):
But you're so right, it willtake knowing and understanding
and getting more professionallearning in that area.
SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Yeah, it's like we need teachers to be able to ask
teacher-y questions and get goodresearch answers back.
And then we also need to be ableto understand when research is
delivering answers, how do wemake sense of that?
SPEAKER_03 (11:30):
What is worth our effort and pursuing?
That is just wonderful.
Thank you so much.
That is a different avenue tolook at things now that we
understand what the research is,how do we digest it?
How do we consume it and use itin a meaningful way on a regular
basis?
Thinking about educators as awhole.
We might have somemisconceptions here and there,
just like we had somemisconceptions about how we
(11:54):
teach reading.
Thinking about how they mightparticipate maybe in this
research.
You mentioned some things thatyou are understanding now.
What were some of the barriersmaybe from before that you
didn't understand that made youingest it differently now?
How do we demystify the process?
SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
Yeah, so part of it is this need for a common
language.
There's a lot of terms that areused in research that are not
familiar to teachers.
And then there are also termsthat teachers use that are not
familiar to research.
So sometimes we are like missingeach other in our conversations.
So there's this need for acommon language.
There's also a need forunderstanding what research has
(12:39):
been done already and why.
So, for example, one of the bigmisconceptions I hear about the
science of reading is a lot ofpeople think that it is limited
to phonics.
And so, like if you know aboutteaching explicit systematic
phonics, you've got the scienceof reading down, you're good to
go.
And that is such amisconception.
I didn't realize the amount ofresearch that had actually been
(13:01):
done on language development andon comprehension.
So when I first started gettinginto being more active in the
science of reading, it wasbecause my now research partner,
Tiffany Hogan, who's a speechand language pathologist, she
was telling me about this hugegovernmental initiative that I
knew nothing about.
It was the Reading forUnderstanding research
(13:23):
initiative.
And it was enormous governmentalinvestment in trying to
understand how do we improvestudents' reading comprehension.
So it was like over a hundredmillion dollars that went into
it and like hundreds ofpublications that were produced
by the Reading for UnderstandingInitiative.
And most teachers don't knowanything about it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:45):
Because it stayed in the realm of research and has it
been disseminated for us.
SPEAKER_02 (13:49):
Exactly.
And so one of the reasons why Ilove my research partner so much
is that Tiffany is willing to beable to think critically about
like where have we misstepped asresearchers?
What are some things that weneed to do to improve the
transmission of information?
And so we were talking about howone of the outputs of the
Reading for Understandinginitiative was curriculum.
(14:11):
It was researcher-designedlanguage comprehension
curriculum.
And so they developed thesegreat lessons.
They found out that theyactually really work.
They were seeing studentsincrease in their language
abilities on objective measures.
And so they're like, this isgreat.
We've done our job.
We're going to post it openaccess on the internet, and
teachers are going to be able tofind it.
(14:33):
And what actually happened isthat without a big marketing
budget, there is nobody who isdisseminating the lesson plans.
And as a result, teachers didn'tknow anything about them.
And so they kind of sat on awebsite there.
And so I think one of the thingsthat we need to think more
critically about is we can'tassume that just because
(14:55):
researchers are researching andthey're putting their findings
out in peer-reviewed journals oron websites for teachers to
access, that teachers know tolook for it and then know how to
use those things.
So we need to get better at thedissemination part for sure.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Yes.
Is this what you would call yourlast mile between research and
practice?
SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Yeah, I suppose it is.
Like, I think one of the thingsthat comes to mind when I think
about the last mile is thatwe've done a whole lot of
research to try to figure outlike the efficacy of instruction
and of interventions.
That means that we know whatworks out in ideal
(15:37):
circumstances.
So when the circumstances areright, when the conditions are
great, the dosage of theinstruction is high, the
implementation matches thedesign that was planned for the
intervention.
Like we know quite a lot aboutefficacy.
But we have so much less when itcomes to effectiveness trials,
which are actually the kind ofresearch that happens in the
(16:00):
wild.
So we still have so much tolearn about what we need to do
to ensure that school systems,like school districts, are going
to be able to reliably produceskilled readers.
So we don't know enough aboutwhat's needed in order to make
effective practices the norm.
We don't know enough about howto ensure that teachers pick up
(16:22):
those practices and sustainusing them.
What curriculum and training isneeded to make sure that average
teachers get really goodresults?
When I think about the lastmile, it's the like, what do we
need to do to ensure that kidsbecome readers in our school
system, not just hypotheticallyor in specific trials?
SPEAKER_03 (16:43):
Right.
So those effective trials willbe the types of strategies or
frameworks that have been shownto work in various types of
environments.
Is that what you're saying?
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SPEAKER_02 (17:33):
Yeah, and I think that one of the things that I'm
really excited about when itcomes to research to practice
partnerships is that whatteachers have is a deep
understanding of our setting.
We know what our classrooms arelike.
We know what it's like to try tomanage classroom management at
the same time that you're tryingto implement effective
strategies.
We know how much planning timewe've got.
(17:55):
So we know like we need to teachmath and science and reading and
writing and all of these things.
So we know the parameters thatare in place.
And if we can help researchersunderstand those parameters,
then they're better able tocreate studies that are of use
to us, which makes it easier forus to then apply those findings
(18:15):
to our instruction.
SPEAKER_03 (18:17):
Right, very good.
Speaking of parameters andthinking about teachers want
practical.
Show me what it is that hasworked, show me how to do it,
how can I tweak it so it worksin my situation?
What are some practical wayswhen I think just overall the
educators can bridge that gapfrom the research to the schools
(18:39):
to the classrooms in districtsacross the country?
SPEAKER_02 (18:43):
Yeah, and I love that you use that word gap to
try to describe it because Ifeel like we've got at least two
gaps.
We've got thisresearch-to-practice gap, which
has gotten a lot of attention,where there's this vast body of
research and it wasn't filteringinto the curriculum and the
instruction that teachers wereusing.
But we also have thispractice-to-research gap where
(19:06):
researchers may not know enoughabout what is happening in
schools to be able to do thekind of research that will then
become widely applicable toclassrooms everywhere.
So I think the responsibilitylies on both sides of things.
It's important for researchersto try to get involved into
their local school systems to beable to conduct research in
(19:29):
environments that they canincreasingly learn about.
I also think when teachers havethe capacity, we should be
reaching out to researchers aswell.
So, I mean, for me personally, Iwas listening to a podcast and
someone had sent it to me andwas like, Tiffany Hogan was
talking about a blog that youwrote.
Just wanted to let you listen toit.
(19:50):
And I listened to it and I waslike, she's talking about this
thing, like, bring a scientistto school day.
This is fascinating.
I'm gonna call her bluff.
Like, let's see.
Like, does she actually reallywant to come to school?
So I sent her an email and I waslike, I was listening to this.
It sounds like you're reallyinterested in understanding what
(20:10):
teachers are doing and workingwith us.
Are you interested in talking?
And what I learned was she wasnot bluffing.
She did actually want to engagein our research to practice
partnership.
So that kind of reaching out andsaying, I was listening to you,
I'm curious about it.
Would you be willing to talkwith me more?
Talk with the teachers at myschool, teachers in my district.
(20:33):
Sometimes you don't get aresponse at all.
Not everybody is a Tiffany.
Sometimes their inboxes are fulland they don't have the capacity
to take on that work.
But a lot of times you doactually get a response, and
people will actually be excitedabout the idea of explaining
their research directly toteachers.
From there, sometimes you canask about their upcoming
(20:54):
projects and see if there's someoverlap between the needs that
your students have and theresearch that's being conducted
and see if there's actually soclose of a match that you can be
part of their upcoming study.
SPEAKER_03 (21:08):
Oh, that's wonderful.
So, this whole idea of gettingthe researchers to think like
teachers and then having theteachers think like researchers,
right?
We want our teachers to thinklike scientists so that they're
both fine-tuning.
They're fine, the researchersare fine-tuning the research,
and the teachers are fine-tuningtheir practice of teaching their
(21:30):
students to get the biggest bangfor your buck, right?
How do we get our teachers tothink like a scientist?
Can you share any examples ofhow that mindset shapes
instruction?
SPEAKER_02 (21:45):
Or yeah, so I was actually just talking with a
newer career teacher the otherday about how when you first
start teaching, it's likethere's just so much to manage,
and you're trying to think like,what do I do next?
What do I say next in thismoment?
It feels like everything isgoing very fast, and sometimes
it feels a little bit out ofcontrol.
But when you get to be a moreexperienced teacher and
(22:08):
classroom management is feelingstronger, things seem to slow
down.
It's like the whole game slowsdown and you're able to see the
variables that are in place.
And so one of the next stepsthat we can take is shifting our
focus from like looking atindividual students and being
like, what about the student doI need to know?
(22:29):
And instead start thinking aboutlike, I know my students, I know
what I'm trying to do.
So, what about the interactionbetween the curriculum and the
instruction and my students andthe learning environment?
What about those things can Ialter so that students will
learn?
And so you start thinking aboutthem, those factors as variables
(22:51):
where you can turn up the volumeon things like opportunities for
practice, or you can turn up thevolume on trying to make sure
that you are providing the mostexplicit instruction possible so
that there's no room for doubtfor kids to understand exactly
what you're asking them to do.
I feel like the shift thathappens for teachers, if we're
(23:12):
going to start thinking like ascientist in the classroom, is
looking at the variables thatare within our control and
starting to tweak thosevariables so that we get the
outcomes that we want.
It starts to seem more like anexperiment than an art in some
way.
It's not that the art is gone,but it's a different way of
thinking about it and adifferent way of thinking about
(23:32):
your role in this interactionwith curriculum and with
students.
SPEAKER_03 (23:37):
Does that make sense?
Yes, it does because the endresult is student success,
right?
Yeah.
I love that you focus on theinteraction.
What is it that you can do toget the best results for your
students, that explicitinstruction?
What's what is it that I can doto get that end result that I'm
(23:58):
seeking?
And all teachers want theirstudents to learn.
Absolutely.
That's beautiful.
I love the way you said that,Margaret.
Are there any particularstrategies that you've seen work
to keep the momentum and theexcitement about, oh, now I know
what it is that I need to do.
I understand the research.
I'm going to put this intopractice.
(24:21):
How do we keep that momentumalive, especially right now when
resources and constraints orcompeting priorities are in
place?
And we know that happenseverywhere in every school
across our country.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
Yeah, I think part of the problem that we're
experiencing in a lot ofdifferent places is that
teachers are kind of all on ourown trying to figure things out.
So we're trying to read Facebookposts that are about the science
of reading and find journalarticles that will start to
answer some of our questions.
And we're listening to podcastsand we're watching webinars and
(24:56):
we're doing all of this.
And what can actually happen iseach teacher in a school
building starts approachinginstruction in his or her own
way.
And the result for kids is apiecemeal of instruction, so
that there becomes a lack ofthrough line from kindergarten
to first grade to second gradeto third grade.
(25:17):
And if what we're trying to dois actually ensure that every
kid becomes a skilled reader, weneed alignment across the grade
levels in a school.
Because it takes longer than 180days, which is how long we have
in one school year in mydistrict.
It takes longer than 180 days toensure a skilled reader.
So what it ends up coming downto is good leadership at the
(25:39):
school level, at the districtlevel, and hopefully we'll get
there at the state level.
But it means having a visionthat we're all aligned with.
It means that we all have thiswillingness to prioritize, to
make sure that reading is alwaysa focus of every school day and
of our time that we havetogether for collaboration, for
(25:59):
planning, for staff meetings, etcetera.
And then it takes goodleadership to protect that time
that is for literacyinstruction, to protect our
focus from competing priorities.
One of the things that has beenreally powerful at my school is
just norming on the fact thatevery kid will get taught to
read every single day at school.
(26:21):
There is nothing that is goingto interrupt our dedicated
literacy block.
And I don't think that we'regoing to be able to get such
great results unless we've gotreally great leadership that is
bringing all of our energytogether, harnessing it, and
then making sure that we'rerunning in step together.
SPEAKER_03 (26:40):
Harnessing it.
I love that phrase.
Just the idea of workingtogether is so important.
You talk about equity, andequity, this is just a
paraphrasing, Dr.
Anita Archer, is that quality ofinstruction for all in every
class, every day, is what we'relooking at.
And I know Wright's Reprojectemphasizes equity through
(27:03):
literacy.
How does implementation scienceintersect with that equity in
the work that you do?
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
I feel like this is an issue where it's like if
we're relying on teachersseeking out training, relying on
teachers paying for their ownprofessional development,
effective instruction is nevergoing to reach our most
vulnerable students.
Schools that have high teacherturnover, that have fewer
resources, that have greaterimplementation challenge are
(27:33):
always going to have to defy allthe odds in order to get good
results.
So I focus more now onimplementation science, which is
about systematic change.
It's about ensuring thateffective implementation happens
in a school building, happens inhopefully at the district level,
because leaders create theseenabling conditions that allow
(27:55):
effective instruction to happenin every classroom, regardless
of the level of experience ofthe teacher, regardless of the
teacher's capacity to seek outlearning on his or her own.
I think that what it's going totake to ensure that all students
become good readers is thinkingabout the kids who are most
dependent on school to becomeskilled readers.
(28:17):
How do we make sure that theyget their needs met, despite the
conditions that we know are inplace in typically higher
poverty schools, where there's alot more turnover of teachers,
of staff, where you need to tryto figure out how do we ensure
really solid foundation baselinelevel of teaching in order to
make sure that every kid is ableto make at least a year's worth
(28:40):
of progress every year thatthey're in school.
SPEAKER_03 (28:43):
All right.
So much to think about.
You said defy the odds.
So much needs to be in place todefy the odds, right?
When we're looking at knowledgefrom the teacher, uh being able
to implement what they'velearned, having a structure
there and that support, thosepartnerships are so important.
When we think about all thethings you've discussed, what is
(29:05):
that one thing, that one stepthat educators can take tomorrow
to become more engaged in thescience of reading movement?
SPEAKER_02 (29:14):
I think it's the step that I keep taking over and
over again, which is talking toother teachers about what you're
learning.
The more that we're able to talkwith our colleagues and our
school building about what we'relearning and what we're trying,
the more we can try to rope inour principal or district
leadership and talking aboutwhat we're learning, the more we
can create this collaborativeenvironment where it becomes
(29:37):
safe to try new things, wherethere's some accountability to
make sure that those things workbecause we're helping each other
fine-tune our practice,opportunities to look at data
together to be able to see howthose choices that we're making
are paying off our students.
The thing that I come back toover and over again is the step
that we need to do is bringother people along.
(30:00):
With us and our learning so thatour impact is able to spread.
SPEAKER_03 (30:05):
All right, wonderful.
Discuss, share, refine, repeat,and pull in more people and do
it again.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
We need everybody in this big job.
SPEAKER_03 (30:14):
Yes, it is a very big job.
I agree with you there, but itcan be done.
We will defy the odds.
Well, what gives you hope rightnow about the future of literacy
instruction?
SPEAKER_02 (30:26):
I feel pretty cautiously optimistic, both
optimistic, because I feel liketeachers are seeking out
information more than everbefore.
We're trying to learn abouteffective literacy instruction.
And this is happening at a timewhen districts and states are
actually putting in place earlyliteracy legislation.
(30:47):
So for example, I'm inCalifornia and this is the first
year ever that there has been arequirement for universal
screening so that all primarygrade teachers will administer
an assessment to find outreading risk amongst their
students.
That's a huge step forward.
So I feel optimistic becausethere's this chance that
(31:07):
teachers and our curiosity willactually be met by leadership at
district and state levels.
So that together there's achance of us being able to
implement well.
When I feel cautious, it'sbecause I worry about sometimes
there's a lack of communicationin that planning process.
So I want to make sure thatteachers are advocates, that we
(31:30):
are part of the planning processwhen it comes to district
initiatives and stateinitiatives, so that we can
ensure that the planning is donereally well and it will actually
be feasible in our classrooms tomake the kind of changes that
are being discussed.
SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
Wonderful.
Hope in conjunction with whatyou do over and over again, talk
to teachers, keep thatcommunication going.
Lastly, how can our listenerslearn more about your work with
the Right to Read project?
SPEAKER_02 (31:59):
Oh, thanks for asking.
Well, you can always read aboutwhat we're thinking.
So we have a blog that has tonsof posts on it.
So you can always read aboutwhat's brewing in our minds now.
You can also look on our websiteto see the resources that we've
developed.
So, for example, there's thesevideos that are there that we
designed for kids to be able tolearn about the science of
(32:22):
reading.
So, like at my school, we showthese brain builder videos to
kids at the start of each schoolyear so that they understand
more about what's going on intheir brains as they're learning
to read, as they're developingfluency with their reading,
understanding what rolevocabulary plays in their
reading or phonics plays intheir reading.
So there's resources there thatare for kids, for teachers, for
(32:44):
advocates.
Another thing that I mightsuggest is that everybody is
totally welcome to email and askto be a part of the lunch and
let.
It's a space that is intendedfor educators and researchers.
So if you fall into one of thosetwo categories.
On Fridays, we have pretty muchweekly meetings where people
(33:05):
will present research thatthey're conducting and get
feedback from practitionersabout how that is landing with
them.
Or the reverse can be true,where we have practitioners who
are posing problems of practiceto get answered by researchers.
So that's called the lunch andlunch.
And there's information on ourwebsite about how to request to
join those pretty much weeklymeetings to be able to bring
(33:28):
together research and practicein one safe space to ask
questions.
SPEAKER_03 (33:35):
All right.
This sounds like you've got itactively going already.
That partnership betweenresearchers and teachers, very
inspiring.
Thank you so much, Margaret, forsharing.
I'm sure that you've inspiredteachers to reach out and learn
a little bit more and dive intobeing an advocate themselves of
being that, to think like, to bean advocate themselves, to think
(33:58):
like a scientist, is where I wasgoing with that one.
Thank you, Margaret.
This has been such a wonderfullyinformative and insightful
conversation.
We thank you for sharing yourknowledge and experience with
our audience today.
That's it for another greatEdu360 podcast.
Please join us again next monthand visit VoyagerSopris.com
(34:20):
slash Edview to learn about ourwebinars, blogs, and other
podcasts.
This is Pam Austin, and we hopeto see you all again very soon.
SPEAKER_00 (34:32):
This has been an Edview 360 podcast.
For additional thought-provokingdiscussions, sign up for our
blog, webinar, and podcastseries at Voyager Sopras.com
slash Edview360.
If you enjoyed the show, we'dlove a five-star review wherever
you listen to podcasts and tohelp other people like you find
(34:54):
our show.
Thank you.
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