March 25, 2026 • 22 mins
Is it possible to use insights from CBT to enhance your practice of EMDR Therapy? In this episode, Curt and Michelle talk about how EMDR Therapy and CBT can complement one another with guest Christopher Schamber, LCSW, who will be teaching an advanced course about EMDR Therapy and CBT.
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SPEAKER_02 (00:13):
Welcome to EMDR Chat with Kurt and Michelle.
I'm Dr.
Curtis Roundsen.
And I'm Dr.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Michelle Gottlieb.
Hey Kurt, guess what?
What?
We have a guest today.
You never told me this.
I know, it's a secret.
I didn't want to tell you.
Okay.
But it was a surprise.
I wanted to surprise you.
Surprise!
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
I know we have a guest.
Go ahead, introduce this Jimmy.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
So our guest is Christopher Schamber.
And Chris is someone that I'veworked with on his journey of
becoming certified.
His passion for EMDR therapyknows no bounds.
But he has another passion aswell, CBT.
And you know, we often talkabout EMDR therapy not being
CBT, but did you know there'sactually ways that that it can
(00:59):
they can complement each other?
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
Absolutely.
A lot of it can be complemented.
I'm really interested in hearingit.
Because, you know, all of us oldfolks tended to come from a CBT
orientation before EMDR camealong.
So that's really good.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
So, Chris, would you first just tell a little bit
about your background and youknow how how do these things
complement each other?
Yeah, who are you?
Who am I?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
That's a great question.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
It's a philosophical question, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I looked in the mirror and askedthat earlier.
So um, yeah, my name is ChrisChamber.
I'm an LCSW uh practicing herein California.
Um I have worked in a fewdifferent types of settings, um,
close to seven and a half yearsworking with LA County
Department of Mental Health,worked with drug court, DUI
(01:50):
Court, um, alternative highschools.
Um, so there's a lot ofdifferent areas in which I
practiced.
And I guess, you know, myjourney with these modalities
was kind of interesting.
Uh, like, like a lot of people,I was exposed to CBT in grad
school.
You know, I think that's one ofthose things where they they
want to give you very concreteskills to sort of put you out
(02:13):
into the world and start doingsome some good work.
Uh so initially, you know, thatthat yeah, that was that was
kind of my exposure in in someways with CBT was was like
worksheets.
And I found it like incrediblykind of frustrating and
confining after a short time.
So I was like, ah, you know, Idon't know if this is this is
for me.
Um, but I kept hearing aboutEMDR.
I had a professor um who wastrained in EMDR and swore up and
(02:37):
down about it.
So I was like, okay, you know,that's something I'll I'll get
to.
Um and then I've I I moved oninto the workforce.
Um and uh through LA County, Ihad the opportunity to connect
with an organization called theAcademy of CDT.
Um they are a pretty pronouncedum organization in terms of
(02:59):
training people on cognitivebehavioral therapy.
So I uh that that was that was apath that, you know, as I went
further and further down, I waslike, wow, this is this is
really exciting.
It's not just worksheets, youknow.
It's it's there's a lot more toit.
There is room to be creative,there is room to kind of bring
in all these different kinds ofinterventions as opposed to
(03:20):
something super duperprescribed.
Um, so I went down that road,became certified.
Um, and then as time went on, I,you know, I working in the uh
Department of Mental Health, um,you know, trauma was this thing
I was constantly experiencing.
Um and while I found, you know,CBT certainly has effective ways
(03:44):
of getting to that, likeexposure response prevention and
all of that, which I did findhelpful, I always was finding
like I mean, I'm missingsomething.
You know, I I couldn't quitetouch some of the underlying
wounds and and beliefs as aseasily or as well as I wanted
(04:05):
to.
Um, so then you know, it wasaround that time I started
reconsidering, okay, yeah, Iremember this EMDR thing.
You know, let me let me lookinto that.
Um, I trained with you all, andit was a uh, you know, this is
an extreme word, but aborderline religious experience,
you know, just sort of like likekind of just being able to hear
(04:27):
things from this otherperspective that I I hadn't been
exposed to, but it made so muchsense.
And it made so much sense in thework that I was doing every
single day.
So that really encouraged me,you know, kind of going down
this path of becoming EMDRcertified.
I'm I'm a consultant in trainingnow, hoping to get through that
path as well soon.
(04:48):
Um, and and similarly though,you know, I I was also still
very much in the CBT world andkind of continued that, became a
uh CBT trainer consultant, um,leading trainings, consultation
groups on that on that.
And I I I love that too.
So it's it's been kind of afunny position, kind of being a
a little bit split between twoworlds.
(05:09):
Um, so I'm I'm finding that I Ido a lot of translation in my
head and also in some of myconsult groups of like trying to
use like language or ideas inone area and and help move it to
the other.
SPEAKER_02 (05:22):
Which is uh a great thing that we have to do when we
have two have differentparadigms.
So I'm curious, as you I how doyou translate that?
How have you used CBT and EMDRto complement one another?
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Yeah, I think uh for for sure, it all starts with a
solid understanding of bothmodels.
Like you really need to knowwhat is the theory behind these
things, because if you're notcareful, it can become really
dangerous in a lot of ways ifthings become too muddled.
So for me, I uh initially, likeone of the things I'm always
(05:58):
asking myself is you know, firstof all, I do a case
conceptualization, like what iswhat is going on?
You know, how is thiscontributing to maladaptive
behavior, thoughts, feelings,whatever.
And then, you know, from there Itry to understand like, you
know, what are my options here?
How can I best understand theproblem?
And how can I uh use thesedifferent paradigms to make
(06:22):
sense of it?
And so I think from mystandpoint, you know, there are
areas of overlap, certainly.
Um, you know, in the cognitivemodel, uh the AIP model, there
are different ways in which wecan kind of see them bounce off
of one another.
So I try to, both when I'm I'mdoing my my uh direct services
(06:44):
uh clinical work, as well aswhen I'm consulting with people,
I I try to I try to keep thatpart in mind.
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Right.
And this is kind of my questionis, you know, we talk about, I
mean, both CBT and EMDR therapyare research evidence-based
modalities.
I mean, there's probably thethese two are probably the most
evidence, you know, mostresearch.
Um, and what we know from theEMDR world, and I'm gonna guess
the same for CBT world, is thatum fidelity to the model keeps
(07:13):
it the most effective.
So how do you keep fidelity toeach model um and still make
them complimentary, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Yeah, um that is a uh personal frustration that I
run into a lot, is there's a lotof people out there that are um
surely well-meaning, um, butthey uh don't necessarily stick
to the model.
I mean, you know, certainly inin EMDR world, right?
We we sort of encounter clientsout there that say, oh yeah, I I
(07:46):
I did EMDR for a little while.
It was terrible.
I just got I, you know, I feltworse and worse and worse.
And um I had a colleague thatwas describing this to me.
She was she had an experiencewhere she went in to work on um,
you know, a dog attacked her atone point.
And so I I asked her more abouther experience with EMDR, and
like, man, it it sounded nothinglike the standard protocol.
(08:09):
I it was really something like,you know, do you know, kind of
do like one set of bilateralsand talk about it for a while,
and then and and so very quicklyit it became obvious, like,
okay, you know, this is this ispart of the challenge of of this
sort of work, I think, is youwant to proliferate these great
(08:30):
models, these great treatments,but there also needs to be some
sort of standard of care, right?
Because that that is what isresearched, that's what we know
is is effective.
So certainly, you know, withwith um CBT as well, CBT has um
different ways in which weevaluate it uh at the Academy of
CBT.
(08:50):
Um there are there's this uhcognitive therapy rating scale.
It was developed by uh Dr.
Beck back in 1980, um, still isis used today, uh, which is an
amazing thing.
Um But I, you know, that thathas like very specific, concrete
ways in which, like, if I'mwatching video of a therapist
(09:10):
doing CBT, I'm kind of gradingthem in each of these domains.
How how adherent, not not likehow good the therapy is, but
like how adherent they are.
And I think some of thoseprinciples apply to EMDR too.
You know, just like, you know,good therapy, that that is
sometimes a subjective idea, butcertainly we can we can measure
how adherent they are to theprotocol.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Yeah, uh EMDR has uh uh uh uh f uh fidelity scales
that's used in research alsolike that, so they you know, an
outside observer can look andand say, see whether or not
someone's actually utilizing theprotocol as it was developed.
Uh I'm curious, you know,because you know in EMDR
therapy, part of one of theparts of uh phase three, the
(09:54):
assessment or uh activationphase, is that you know we break
down the components of thememory into it's the images,
cognitions, emotions,sensations, and you know, the C
part of that is cognitions.
I'm curious, how does uh doesthe CBD, the background that you
have, uh play a part in yourhelping uh elicit those
irrational negative beliefs thatare imparted at the time of the
(10:16):
trauma?
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think for me, you know, by thetime we get to phase three, of
course, we're wanting to movethrough that quite quickly, you
know, in a handful of minutes.
We want to kind of light up thattarget so that it is really
tangible and working through thenervous system.
So that sort of work I I try todo even in phase one.
(10:39):
Part of my my idea aroundhistory taking, especially with
some of my CBT background, isI'm trying to understand like
what are the underlying beliefs?
What is the core belief to use aCBT uh term?
What is the core belief that hasemerged from the exposure to
these traumatic experiences?
Because if I if I know that, um,first of all, that helps guide
(11:01):
my treatment planning.
Like, oh, I kind of thought thatthis one memory was connected to
this, but like the core beliefis totally different than
everything else.
So that that kind of adds alittle bit of organization in my
brain as far as like what whatis on a treatment plan versus
another treatment plan.
But also once once that isestablished, and certainly there
(11:22):
are different ways in CBT,there's there's things called
like guided discovery orSocratic questioning that can
kind of help dig underneath andand find those core beliefs.
Um, once I find those, I kind ofwrite them down on the top of my
treatment plan.
And that always is going to bepart of my phase three.
I'm I'm kind of asking, I'llgive the the client an
(11:43):
opportunity to be able toarticulate and look for the NC.
But if it if it's too tooslogged down, if it's something
that we're just not gettingthere for whatever reason, I'll
I'll throw that out there.
I'll ask, like, does that doesthat feel like that resonates?
And and you know, 95 times outof a hundred it usually is good.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
You know, um, and Kurt, you're gonna be able to
tell me all this in just asecond.
Shapiro wrote a book years andyears ago, obviously, at this
point, um, talking about howintegrative EMDR therapy is.
Um, and so I'm hearing you, andit's not just CBT, it's all
kinds of different therapiesthat can be integrated into EMDR
therapy.
(12:23):
But I hear phase one and phasethree can really integrate well
with EMDR with CBT um in waysthat again keep fidelity the
model.
Are there other ways that it'scomplementary?
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Absolutely.
You know, phase two, I wouldargue, is an enormous part.
If you're if you are thinking ofutilizing CBT uh concepts with
with your EMDR practice, uhphase two is enormous.
Um you can even argue if you ifyou had a client that you'd been
doing CBT with.
Sometimes we we do this, right?
Where we we're working in onemodel and then um the clinical
(13:04):
picture changes or or whatnot,and then we we make a shift,
right?
That if if you were doing CBTwith that person, that was phase
two.
You were that was part of thepreparation for the the
reprocessing that you're doing.
So um that in a sense, in asense, CBT is is is a phase two
in and of itself.
And also there are a lot ofskills.
(13:24):
There are a lot of skills thatCBT has.
Um, it is it is a funny model inthe sense that it's it's a huge
umbrella.
There are so many differentthings that are connected to
CBT, like DBT, of course, is isone that I I am trained in DBT.
I I use some of those skills,certainly.
Um they are great for distresstolerance, emotional regulation,
(13:45):
you know, those sorts of thingscan be really helpful if a
person has to stop during thereprocessing phase.
You know, those are things thatwe could have taught and
practiced and and hopefully turnto.
Um, certainly when we're talkingabout um phase seven closure,
you know, that's another waythat we can kind of bring in.
Um, you know, this these arethings to kind of not as
(14:06):
homework, EMDR doesn't givehomework, but these are things
to sort of practice if you needto, you know, over the next next
week, like in terms ofregulating yourself.
So CBT has a lot of optionsaround that.
Um and I, you know, I I thinkthat phase phase four, some of
the cognitive interweaves aswell, you know, there's there's
a lot that if you can one of thehardest skills in CBT, I think
(14:29):
is the guided discovery part,the Socratic questioning.
It's it becomes very um, youknow, can become very uh
intellectualized, which is notalways a great thing in EMDR,
but it it is something that Ifind can really help with
cognitive interweeds.
If we've hit a stuck point, ifwe're looping for some reason,
um I try to fit in one onequestion, you know, I don't want
(14:53):
to derail the process, onequestion that can really help
move the client, jostle thestuckness.
And I I find that that's that'sa CBT skill that translates
pretty well.
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Yes, I can see that 100%.
You know, and particularly uhcognitive interweaves, I find
that we you know we teach that,of course, but your own
experience and your ownbackground often is very helpful
in developing uh usefulcognitive interweaves.
So I can see that very uhpowerfully affecting that.
(15:27):
Good.
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
So I have another question then.
How do you know how do you makethe decision, Chris, with the
the the background, thewonderful, amazing, thorough
background you have with both ofthese modalities of with a
client, when do you do CBT, whendo you do amateur therapy?
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think for me, and I I'd loveto hear, I I you know, if other
people kind of practice thissort of like dual, dual approach
at different points, I'd love tohear other people's perspectives
as well.
For me personally, I I find thatagain, it all starts with like
(16:07):
clinical uh formulation.
What is the what is what is itthat's happening, right?
Um, what is the window oftolerance?
Um I think that certainly in mymind, anytime there is any sort
of somatic stuff going on, I'mlike almost immediately thinking
EMDR.
Um that that is something thatCBT has different ways over over
(16:30):
the long run.
It can affect that.
But EMDR is such a clean way toreally address that piece.
So that that's that's one thingthat I take into consideration.
Um, there are a lot of peopleout there, though, that um and
and you know, working in thecommunity mental health field as
long as I I I did, I saw a lotof people that just could not
(16:52):
resonate with positivecognitions.
Um it was it was like, you know,I I could I could give one to
them, but that would be likegive it like telling them a
story that they didn't believe,right?
So I I found that um with CBT,one of the things that I found
helpful in terms of thecognitive restructuring and kind
(17:13):
of using that sort of that sortof paradigm, I was able to kind
of help people at least at leastgrasp or connect with the idea
of a PC.
Maybe not, maybe it's notsomething that's totally uh
bought into.
That's okay.
I don't need them to be 100%bought into it.
But I found that that thathelped that that has helped me
(17:34):
with the EMDR process on thoseparticular cases, because if I
can get them to sort of buy intothat, like, okay, there is a
chance of of the PC um havingvalidity, then there then I'm
able to oftentimes move throughphase four and especially phase
five more more successfully.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
Yeah, good.
SPEAKER_01 (17:56):
Um and you know um you and I talked about and
thought about that oftentimespeople who are trying to make
that transition from fully CBTto EMDR therapy can make it uh
can be difficult for people todo that.
Can you speak I I'm gonna I'mgonna mention your training in
(18:17):
just a minute, but um can youjust speak a little bit about um
you know that bridge?
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
Yeah, it's it's a challenge, I think.
You know, it's a challenge for afew different reasons.
Uh for one, there's there's thevery human element, right?
Of it's hard to be in thelearner's position sometimes.
It's a very vulnerable place.
Um, I'll like speak for my ownexperience.
Like I always have this urge, Iwant to, I want to know
(18:47):
everything, I want to be good atit, it's important to me, you
know.
So to try something new is it'sjust inherently difficult, you
know, like there there is thereis some some challenges around
that.
And there's also the fact thatsometimes people, when they talk
about switching from one modelto another, um, there's there
(19:08):
there are some concerns that aperson might have.
And I just want to validatethat.
Like it's good to have that ifthat's your your response of a
little bit of worry when you'relearning something new.
I think to to a degree, that's agood thing, you know, because
there is a lot of responsibilityin that.
Um I I think again, if youalways know what you're doing
(19:28):
and why, that that really helps.
I, you know, I really I'm one ofthose people that I I just find
that everything we know,everything we learn somehow
connects to itself.
Um I I you know I grew up morein like the arts area.
That was kind of like anoriginal uh passion of mine.
(19:50):
And um, you know, when I startedgoing into mental health, part
of me initially was like, oh,you know, this is totally
different.
And then the more I did it, it'slike, wow, it's it's all an
extension, right?
It's all an extension of itself.
And I I think that when we talkabout when we tell clinicians to
bring your authentic self, Ithink that's part of what what
we're saying is like you havelike innately human, unique
(20:14):
perspective.
And there is something that isextremely therapeutic about it.
Um and and what you say, likebring bringing the science on
top of the human side is issomething that is really
helpful.
So I I think, again, if you interms of these different
different models, I mean, if youknow what you're doing and why,
like trying to pick really buildunderstanding of theory, um, of
(20:37):
the practice, the differentnuances of these different
things, um, that's a reallysolid place to be.
It's a little uh some this is ametaphor I use sometimes.
It's a little bit like jazz.
You know, you really have tohave a solid understanding of
music theory to successfullyperform jazz.
Jazz breaks all the theorysometimes.
Not it, but it does it becauseyou know exactly why you're
(20:57):
doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Oh, it's a beautiful analogy.
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
I use the same analogy, Chris, because uh
that's where creativity and thiswhole thing.
What I also love is that you'retalking about two very research,
as Michelle said earlier as aswe began, two very empirically
validated approaches andbringing them in and integrating
them together, uh not only theeffectiveness of what that
brings, but the fact that peoplethat are doing that know that
(21:22):
they're doing empiricallyvalidated treatment.
And that's what I really uhreally approve of.
That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
So we are about out of time, um, as I alluded to.
Um Chris is doing an advancedtraining for us on April 17th.
No, seriously, did you not knowthat?
Oh, my God.
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
I can't imagine us having someone on our our
podcast that's going to be doinga workshop for us, Michelle.
So it's almost like a marketingthing almost.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
So April 17th, um it's called The Cognitive Bridge
strengthening your EMJ productpractice through CBT Incidents.
And again.
I think for those people who aretrying to make that transition,
trying to figure it out, I thinkit's going to be really helpful
for you.
It will become an on-demand aswell.
As always, if you're a listener,scroll, you're going to find a
10% coupon so you can go uhlisten to Chris some more.
(22:14):
Uh, but Chris, thank you so muchfor all that you do and and all
that you're continuing to do.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
And this is a wonderful.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's a wonderful introductionfor what we're going to get in
that workshop.
So thank you very much, Chris.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
All right.
Thank you.
Until next time.
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Stay well, everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
Go with that.
Welcome to EMDR Chat with Kurt and Michelle.
I'm Dr.
Curtis Roundsen.
And I'm Dr.
SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Michelle Gottlieb.
Hey Kurt, guess what?
What?
We have a guest today.
You never told me this.
I know, it's a secret.
I didn't want to tell you.
Okay.
But it was a surprise.
I wanted to surprise you.
Surprise!
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
I know we have a guest.
Go ahead, introduce this Jimmy.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
So our guest is Christopher Schamber.
And Chris is someone that I'veworked with on his journey of
becoming certified.
His passion for EMDR therapyknows no bounds.
But he has another passion aswell, CBT.
And you know, we often talkabout EMDR therapy not being
CBT, but did you know there'sactually ways that that it can
(00:59):
they can complement each other?
SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
Absolutely.
A lot of it can be complemented.
I'm really interested in hearingit.
Because, you know, all of us oldfolks tended to come from a CBT
orientation before EMDR camealong.
So that's really good.
SPEAKER_01 (01:15):
So, Chris, would you first just tell a little bit
about your background and youknow how how do these things
complement each other?
Yeah, who are you?
Who am I?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
That's a great question.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
It's a philosophical question, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (01:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I looked in the mirror and askedthat earlier.
So um, yeah, my name is ChrisChamber.
I'm an LCSW uh practicing herein California.
Um I have worked in a fewdifferent types of settings, um,
close to seven and a half yearsworking with LA County
Department of Mental Health,worked with drug court, DUI
(01:50):
Court, um, alternative highschools.
Um, so there's a lot ofdifferent areas in which I
practiced.
And I guess, you know, myjourney with these modalities
was kind of interesting.
Uh, like, like a lot of people,I was exposed to CBT in grad
school.
You know, I think that's one ofthose things where they they
want to give you very concreteskills to sort of put you out
(02:13):
into the world and start doingsome some good work.
Uh so initially, you know, thatthat yeah, that was that was
kind of my exposure in in someways with CBT was was like
worksheets.
And I found it like incrediblykind of frustrating and
confining after a short time.
So I was like, ah, you know, Idon't know if this is this is
for me.
Um, but I kept hearing aboutEMDR.
I had a professor um who wastrained in EMDR and swore up and
(02:37):
down about it.
So I was like, okay, you know,that's something I'll I'll get
to.
Um and then I've I I moved oninto the workforce.
Um and uh through LA County, Ihad the opportunity to connect
with an organization called theAcademy of CDT.
Um they are a pretty pronouncedum organization in terms of
(02:59):
training people on cognitivebehavioral therapy.
So I uh that that was that was apath that, you know, as I went
further and further down, I waslike, wow, this is this is
really exciting.
It's not just worksheets, youknow.
It's it's there's a lot more toit.
There is room to be creative,there is room to kind of bring
in all these different kinds ofinterventions as opposed to
(03:20):
something super duperprescribed.
Um, so I went down that road,became certified.
Um, and then as time went on, I,you know, I working in the uh
Department of Mental Health, um,you know, trauma was this thing
I was constantly experiencing.
Um and while I found, you know,CBT certainly has effective ways
(03:44):
of getting to that, likeexposure response prevention and
all of that, which I did findhelpful, I always was finding
like I mean, I'm missingsomething.
You know, I I couldn't quitetouch some of the underlying
wounds and and beliefs as aseasily or as well as I wanted
(04:05):
to.
Um, so then you know, it wasaround that time I started
reconsidering, okay, yeah, Iremember this EMDR thing.
You know, let me let me lookinto that.
Um, I trained with you all, andit was a uh, you know, this is
an extreme word, but aborderline religious experience,
you know, just sort of like likekind of just being able to hear
(04:27):
things from this otherperspective that I I hadn't been
exposed to, but it made so muchsense.
And it made so much sense in thework that I was doing every
single day.
So that really encouraged me,you know, kind of going down
this path of becoming EMDRcertified.
I'm I'm a consultant in trainingnow, hoping to get through that
path as well soon.
(04:48):
Um, and and similarly though,you know, I I was also still
very much in the CBT world andkind of continued that, became a
uh CBT trainer consultant, um,leading trainings, consultation
groups on that on that.
And I I I love that too.
So it's it's been kind of afunny position, kind of being a
a little bit split between twoworlds.
(05:09):
Um, so I'm I'm finding that I Ido a lot of translation in my
head and also in some of myconsult groups of like trying to
use like language or ideas inone area and and help move it to
the other.
SPEAKER_02 (05:22):
Which is uh a great thing that we have to do when we
have two have differentparadigms.
So I'm curious, as you I how doyou translate that?
How have you used CBT and EMDRto complement one another?
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Yeah, I think uh for for sure, it all starts with a
solid understanding of bothmodels.
Like you really need to knowwhat is the theory behind these
things, because if you're notcareful, it can become really
dangerous in a lot of ways ifthings become too muddled.
So for me, I uh initially, likeone of the things I'm always
(05:58):
asking myself is you know, firstof all, I do a case
conceptualization, like what iswhat is going on?
You know, how is thiscontributing to maladaptive
behavior, thoughts, feelings,whatever.
And then, you know, from there Itry to understand like, you
know, what are my options here?
How can I best understand theproblem?
And how can I uh use thesedifferent paradigms to make
(06:22):
sense of it?
And so I think from mystandpoint, you know, there are
areas of overlap, certainly.
Um, you know, in the cognitivemodel, uh the AIP model, there
are different ways in which wecan kind of see them bounce off
of one another.
So I try to, both when I'm I'mdoing my my uh direct services
(06:44):
uh clinical work, as well aswhen I'm consulting with people,
I I try to I try to keep thatpart in mind.
SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
Right.
And this is kind of my questionis, you know, we talk about, I
mean, both CBT and EMDR therapyare research evidence-based
modalities.
I mean, there's probably thethese two are probably the most
evidence, you know, mostresearch.
Um, and what we know from theEMDR world, and I'm gonna guess
the same for CBT world, is thatum fidelity to the model keeps
(07:13):
it the most effective.
So how do you keep fidelity toeach model um and still make
them complimentary, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:22):
Yeah, um that is a uh personal frustration that I
run into a lot, is there's a lotof people out there that are um
surely well-meaning, um, butthey uh don't necessarily stick
to the model.
I mean, you know, certainly inin EMDR world, right?
We we sort of encounter clientsout there that say, oh yeah, I I
(07:46):
I did EMDR for a little while.
It was terrible.
I just got I, you know, I feltworse and worse and worse.
And um I had a colleague thatwas describing this to me.
She was she had an experiencewhere she went in to work on um,
you know, a dog attacked her atone point.
And so I I asked her more abouther experience with EMDR, and
like, man, it it sounded nothinglike the standard protocol.
(08:09):
I it was really something like,you know, do you know, kind of
do like one set of bilateralsand talk about it for a while,
and then and and so very quicklyit it became obvious, like,
okay, you know, this is this ispart of the challenge of of this
sort of work, I think, is youwant to proliferate these great
(08:30):
models, these great treatments,but there also needs to be some
sort of standard of care, right?
Because that that is what isresearched, that's what we know
is is effective.
So certainly, you know, withwith um CBT as well, CBT has um
different ways in which weevaluate it uh at the Academy of
CBT.
(08:50):
Um there are there's this uhcognitive therapy rating scale.
It was developed by uh Dr.
Beck back in 1980, um, still isis used today, uh, which is an
amazing thing.
Um But I, you know, that thathas like very specific, concrete
ways in which, like, if I'mwatching video of a therapist
(09:10):
doing CBT, I'm kind of gradingthem in each of these domains.
How how adherent, not not likehow good the therapy is, but
like how adherent they are.
And I think some of thoseprinciples apply to EMDR too.
You know, just like, you know,good therapy, that that is
sometimes a subjective idea, butcertainly we can we can measure
how adherent they are to theprotocol.
SPEAKER_02 (09:32):
Yeah, uh EMDR has uh uh uh uh f uh fidelity scales
that's used in research alsolike that, so they you know, an
outside observer can look andand say, see whether or not
someone's actually utilizing theprotocol as it was developed.
Uh I'm curious, you know,because you know in EMDR
therapy, part of one of theparts of uh phase three, the
(09:54):
assessment or uh activationphase, is that you know we break
down the components of thememory into it's the images,
cognitions, emotions,sensations, and you know, the C
part of that is cognitions.
I'm curious, how does uh doesthe CBD, the background that you
have, uh play a part in yourhelping uh elicit those
irrational negative beliefs thatare imparted at the time of the
(10:16):
trauma?
SPEAKER_00 (10:18):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think for me, you know, by thetime we get to phase three, of
course, we're wanting to movethrough that quite quickly, you
know, in a handful of minutes.
We want to kind of light up thattarget so that it is really
tangible and working through thenervous system.
So that sort of work I I try todo even in phase one.
(10:39):
Part of my my idea aroundhistory taking, especially with
some of my CBT background, isI'm trying to understand like
what are the underlying beliefs?
What is the core belief to use aCBT uh term?
What is the core belief that hasemerged from the exposure to
these traumatic experiences?
Because if I if I know that, um,first of all, that helps guide
(11:01):
my treatment planning.
Like, oh, I kind of thought thatthis one memory was connected to
this, but like the core beliefis totally different than
everything else.
So that that kind of adds alittle bit of organization in my
brain as far as like what whatis on a treatment plan versus
another treatment plan.
But also once once that isestablished, and certainly there
(11:22):
are different ways in CBT,there's there's things called
like guided discovery orSocratic questioning that can
kind of help dig underneath andand find those core beliefs.
Um, once I find those, I kind ofwrite them down on the top of my
treatment plan.
And that always is going to bepart of my phase three.
I'm I'm kind of asking, I'llgive the the client an
(11:43):
opportunity to be able toarticulate and look for the NC.
But if it if it's too tooslogged down, if it's something
that we're just not gettingthere for whatever reason, I'll
I'll throw that out there.
I'll ask, like, does that doesthat feel like that resonates?
And and you know, 95 times outof a hundred it usually is good.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
You know, um, and Kurt, you're gonna be able to
tell me all this in just asecond.
Shapiro wrote a book years andyears ago, obviously, at this
point, um, talking about howintegrative EMDR therapy is.
Um, and so I'm hearing you, andit's not just CBT, it's all
kinds of different therapiesthat can be integrated into EMDR
therapy.
(12:23):
But I hear phase one and phasethree can really integrate well
with EMDR with CBT um in waysthat again keep fidelity the
model.
Are there other ways that it'scomplementary?
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Absolutely.
You know, phase two, I wouldargue, is an enormous part.
If you're if you are thinking ofutilizing CBT uh concepts with
with your EMDR practice, uhphase two is enormous.
Um you can even argue if you ifyou had a client that you'd been
doing CBT with.
Sometimes we we do this, right?
Where we we're working in onemodel and then um the clinical
(13:04):
picture changes or or whatnot,and then we we make a shift,
right?
That if if you were doing CBTwith that person, that was phase
two.
You were that was part of thepreparation for the the
reprocessing that you're doing.
So um that in a sense, in asense, CBT is is is a phase two
in and of itself.
And also there are a lot ofskills.
(13:24):
There are a lot of skills thatCBT has.
Um, it is it is a funny model inthe sense that it's it's a huge
umbrella.
There are so many differentthings that are connected to
CBT, like DBT, of course, is isone that I I am trained in DBT.
I I use some of those skills,certainly.
Um they are great for distresstolerance, emotional regulation,
(13:45):
you know, those sorts of thingscan be really helpful if a
person has to stop during thereprocessing phase.
You know, those are things thatwe could have taught and
practiced and and hopefully turnto.
Um, certainly when we're talkingabout um phase seven closure,
you know, that's another waythat we can kind of bring in.
Um, you know, this these arethings to kind of not as
(14:06):
homework, EMDR doesn't givehomework, but these are things
to sort of practice if you needto, you know, over the next next
week, like in terms ofregulating yourself.
So CBT has a lot of optionsaround that.
Um and I, you know, I I thinkthat phase phase four, some of
the cognitive interweaves aswell, you know, there's there's
a lot that if you can one of thehardest skills in CBT, I think
(14:29):
is the guided discovery part,the Socratic questioning.
It's it becomes very um, youknow, can become very uh
intellectualized, which is notalways a great thing in EMDR,
but it it is something that Ifind can really help with
cognitive interweeds.
If we've hit a stuck point, ifwe're looping for some reason,
um I try to fit in one onequestion, you know, I don't want
(14:53):
to derail the process, onequestion that can really help
move the client, jostle thestuckness.
And I I find that that's that'sa CBT skill that translates
pretty well.
SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Yes, I can see that 100%.
You know, and particularly uhcognitive interweaves, I find
that we you know we teach that,of course, but your own
experience and your ownbackground often is very helpful
in developing uh usefulcognitive interweaves.
So I can see that very uhpowerfully affecting that.
(15:27):
Good.
SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
So I have another question then.
How do you know how do you makethe decision, Chris, with the
the the background, thewonderful, amazing, thorough
background you have with both ofthese modalities of with a
client, when do you do CBT, whendo you do amateur therapy?
SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think for me, and I I'd loveto hear, I I you know, if other
people kind of practice thissort of like dual, dual approach
at different points, I'd love tohear other people's perspectives
as well.
For me personally, I I find thatagain, it all starts with like
(16:07):
clinical uh formulation.
What is the what is what is itthat's happening, right?
Um, what is the window oftolerance?
Um I think that certainly in mymind, anytime there is any sort
of somatic stuff going on, I'mlike almost immediately thinking
EMDR.
Um that that is something thatCBT has different ways over over
(16:30):
the long run.
It can affect that.
But EMDR is such a clean way toreally address that piece.
So that that's that's one thingthat I take into consideration.
Um, there are a lot of peopleout there, though, that um and
and you know, working in thecommunity mental health field as
long as I I I did, I saw a lotof people that just could not
(16:52):
resonate with positivecognitions.
Um it was it was like, you know,I I could I could give one to
them, but that would be likegive it like telling them a
story that they didn't believe,right?
So I I found that um with CBT,one of the things that I found
helpful in terms of thecognitive restructuring and kind
(17:13):
of using that sort of that sortof paradigm, I was able to kind
of help people at least at leastgrasp or connect with the idea
of a PC.
Maybe not, maybe it's notsomething that's totally uh
bought into.
That's okay.
I don't need them to be 100%bought into it.
But I found that that thathelped that that has helped me
(17:34):
with the EMDR process on thoseparticular cases, because if I
can get them to sort of buy intothat, like, okay, there is a
chance of of the PC um havingvalidity, then there then I'm
able to oftentimes move throughphase four and especially phase
five more more successfully.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
Yeah, good.
SPEAKER_01 (17:56):
Um and you know um you and I talked about and
thought about that oftentimespeople who are trying to make
that transition from fully CBTto EMDR therapy can make it uh
can be difficult for people todo that.
Can you speak I I'm gonna I'mgonna mention your training in
(18:17):
just a minute, but um can youjust speak a little bit about um
you know that bridge?
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
Yeah, it's it's a challenge, I think.
You know, it's a challenge for afew different reasons.
Uh for one, there's there's thevery human element, right?
Of it's hard to be in thelearner's position sometimes.
It's a very vulnerable place.
Um, I'll like speak for my ownexperience.
Like I always have this urge, Iwant to, I want to know
(18:47):
everything, I want to be good atit, it's important to me, you
know.
So to try something new is it'sjust inherently difficult, you
know, like there there is thereis some some challenges around
that.
And there's also the fact thatsometimes people, when they talk
about switching from one modelto another, um, there's there
(19:08):
there are some concerns that aperson might have.
And I just want to validatethat.
Like it's good to have that ifthat's your your response of a
little bit of worry when you'relearning something new.
I think to to a degree, that's agood thing, you know, because
there is a lot of responsibilityin that.
Um I I think again, if youalways know what you're doing
(19:28):
and why, that that really helps.
I, you know, I really I'm one ofthose people that I I just find
that everything we know,everything we learn somehow
connects to itself.
Um I I you know I grew up morein like the arts area.
That was kind of like anoriginal uh passion of mine.
(19:50):
And um, you know, when I startedgoing into mental health, part
of me initially was like, oh,you know, this is totally
different.
And then the more I did it, it'slike, wow, it's it's all an
extension, right?
It's all an extension of itself.
And I I think that when we talkabout when we tell clinicians to
bring your authentic self, Ithink that's part of what what
we're saying is like you havelike innately human, unique
(20:14):
perspective.
And there is something that isextremely therapeutic about it.
Um and and what you say, likebring bringing the science on
top of the human side is issomething that is really
helpful.
So I I think, again, if you interms of these different
different models, I mean, if youknow what you're doing and why,
like trying to pick really buildunderstanding of theory, um, of
(20:37):
the practice, the differentnuances of these different
things, um, that's a reallysolid place to be.
It's a little uh some this is ametaphor I use sometimes.
It's a little bit like jazz.
You know, you really have tohave a solid understanding of
music theory to successfullyperform jazz.
Jazz breaks all the theorysometimes.
Not it, but it does it becauseyou know exactly why you're
(20:57):
doing it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Oh, it's a beautiful analogy.
SPEAKER_02 (21:00):
I use the same analogy, Chris, because uh
that's where creativity and thiswhole thing.
What I also love is that you'retalking about two very research,
as Michelle said earlier as aswe began, two very empirically
validated approaches andbringing them in and integrating
them together, uh not only theeffectiveness of what that
brings, but the fact that peoplethat are doing that know that
(21:22):
they're doing empiricallyvalidated treatment.
And that's what I really uhreally approve of.
That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
So we are about out of time, um, as I alluded to.
Um Chris is doing an advancedtraining for us on April 17th.
No, seriously, did you not knowthat?
Oh, my God.
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
I can't imagine us having someone on our our
podcast that's going to be doinga workshop for us, Michelle.
So it's almost like a marketingthing almost.
SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
So April 17th, um it's called The Cognitive Bridge
strengthening your EMJ productpractice through CBT Incidents.
And again.
I think for those people who aretrying to make that transition,
trying to figure it out, I thinkit's going to be really helpful
for you.
It will become an on-demand aswell.
As always, if you're a listener,scroll, you're going to find a
10% coupon so you can go uhlisten to Chris some more.
(22:14):
Uh, but Chris, thank you so muchfor all that you do and and all
that you're continuing to do.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (22:20):
And this is a wonderful.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's a wonderful introductionfor what we're going to get in
that workshop.
So thank you very much, Chris.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
All right.
Thank you.
Until next time.
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Stay well, everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (22:32):
Go with that.
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