October 21, 2025 • 26 mins
Hiring is one of the hardest parts of running a logistics company, and Jake Brown has built his career solving that problem.
As Managing Partner at Brown & Pierce Consulting, Jake brings his experience from the Marine Corps and manufacturing recruitment to the world of freight, helping logistics companies find and retain the people who drive their business forward.
Recorded live at the Florida Supply Chain Summit, this conversation covers what is really going on in the freight job market, what makes a great hire, and how recruiters are navigating the balance between authenticity and AI.
Key takeaways:
- Why authentic human connection still wins in a world full of AI-generated job posts.
- The roles in logistics that are hardest to fill and where the pay is rising fastest.
- How federal rate cuts could signal the next hiring boom in transportation.
- What makes a “safe hire” versus a transformational one.
- Why soft skills matter as much as technical ability in leadership roles.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Blythe Milligan (00:37):
How are you liking the summit so far?
Jake Brown (00:44):
Really enjoying it, actually? Yeah. I think these
kind of events are supervaluable for especially for
recruiters like me, andhonestly, just learning from
people about what they havegoing on, it gives you an
insight that you just can't getfrom, like researching a company
through their website and what'savailable online. So talking to
people, I think, is just soimportant. And I'm, I am in the
(01:05):
people business, after all. SoSo I love events like this.
Unknown (01:08):
Well I think that that is I'm actually going to keep
that in the show, because Ihaven't. I'm going to do a quick
intro, but that was a great wayto sort of kick off the
conversation, right? So welcomein, everybody to another episode
of everything is logistics, apodcast for the thinkers and
freight we are proudly presentedby SPI logistics, and I'm your
host, Blythe Milligan, we arelive on site at the Florida
supply chain summit in myhometown of Jacksonville,
(01:29):
Florida, and also your hometownof Jacksonville, Florida. We
were speaking to Jake Brown,managing partner at Brown and
Pierce, a recruiting agency forthe logistics industry. And you
have, we were talking last nightat the welcome reception, and
you have quite an interestingbackground, because you're a
veteran, a former Marine, youalso have manufacturing
experience, and then that ledyou to opening up your own
company. Do I have thathistorical, career history
(01:50):
timeline down that's pretty accurate?
Yeah, really, I was, I wasraised out in the southwest, in
New Mexico, and then decidedthat the military was going to
be the path for me, and I joinedthe Marines. I was lucky enough
to go to the Naval Academy, andthen did my five years there as
a manpower officer. So actually,even from my time in the
military, my whole career hasbeen focused on people, manpower
(02:12):
problems, staffing solutions andthings like that, and that's
just what I'm passionate about,too. So when I got out of the
Marines, I fell right into aveteran owned recruiting agency
in the manufacturing sector,actually, and I did everything
from recruiting technicians upto the executive executive
level, and I learned a lot aboutkind of why companies are
focused on hiring and why It'sso important to get hiring done
(02:35):
right, because it's such a sortof a concept that a lot of
people don't really, they don'treally understand sometimes, on
what all goes into it and whyit's so critical. So got some
good exposure there. And thenafter about three years of doing
that, my business partner and I,who was also a Marine veteran,
decided we were going to spinoff on our own and and one year
(02:55):
ago, actually, we started Brownand pierce consulting, and we
just had our one yearanniversary. And since then,
we've grown so much. We've goneto we're at over, over two dozen
clients now across 13 states,and that's starting from from
absolutely nothing. We just havecreated a very large footprint
already, and if anything else,it just shows that there is a
need for for good hiringservices. So just quickly, 4000
(03:18):
clients. No, no. Sorry. Twodozen clients.
Okay, two dozen. I was like,whoa.
We're not that big yet, but overtwo dozen clients in one year,
and we spread to 13 differentstates up and down the East
Coast, a little bit out towardsthe Midwest as well. So, so
let's, I want
Blythe Milligan (03:32):
to stick with manufacturing for a minute,
because there, obviously,there's a big push here,
nationally, especially withinthe government, to push more US
based manufacturing. I'mcurious, with your time spent in
that segment of you know, thesort of supply chain process,
what were some of the biggestgaps that you saw missing from
the employee base? I guess that,or the employee needs of some of
(03:53):
these big manufacturers?
Unknown (03:54):
Yeah, pretty much everyone is going to need. The
skilled trades, the technicians,those guys who know how to fix
specific kinds of equipment. Ifyou're in the plastics industry,
for example, there's veryspecific kind of extrusion
equipment that is going to needa technician that knows how to
fix it. Or, just as anotherexample, like CNC equipment,
when they're cutting metal,those are like very specialized
machines, and they can be reallylarge too. So the technicians,
(04:18):
those kind of careers are alwaysgoing to be very high demand in
terms of employment. We also didback this was at my previous
company, but we focus prettyheavily on kind of middle
management as well. And I thinkfor hiring, specifically, when
you're looking at those, thosetechnical skill sets, if someone
can do the job, they'regenerally a safe hire. For
management, it's a lot moreabout soft skills. It's a lot
(04:39):
more about that the impact ofthat person is going to have can
be so amazing or alsodetrimental. So it's really,
really important to getmanagement positions right. And
that was another area that wasthat was pretty common when we
were doing manufacturing so
Blythe Milligan (04:50):
and so, as you moved into starting your own
company, why do you still focusor maybe have a sector of
manufacturing, or what does itwhat does the kind of playbook
look like?
Unknown (05:00):
Yeah, right, right now.
We're, we're pretty exclusivelyfocused on transportation and
logistics right now. So we sawthe supply chain sector as one
that was really that had a tonof great potential. We really
liked the future of the supplychain sector in America and
Florida specifically, but we sawthat was underserved from a
recruitment perspective. Somanufacturing, there's a ton of
recruiters in this space, not somuch with supply chain. And so
(05:22):
we sort of saw that as, from afrom a business perspective, a
bit of a blue ocean. We talkedabout the concept of not having
too much competition. And so wesaw that we knew some of the big
names we talked about, thenyesterday as well, but we just
felt that this was absolutelythe right sector. We. A little
bit of exposure to it comingfrom manufacturing, because
they're so integrated with thelargest supply chain picture.
But, but ultimately, we just,kind of, we just dove right into
(05:43):
transportation logistics, andthat's where we got all of our
focus right now. So, so
Blythe Milligan (05:48):
when we're talking about transportation
logistics, I think, you know, asa as a country as a whole,
there's a lot of sort ofreporting around the challenges
of of hiring, the challenges ofretention. I'm imagining that a
lot of those same issues areexisting in transportation
Unknown (06:04):
logistics. Yeah, certainly. I think in
transportation logistics inparticular, there's added
volatility, mostly due to thetariffs. And so, you know, you
can take a look at the overallhiring market, you can look at
the numbers from the BLS, forexample, and see that a lot of
companies are sort of in thiswait and see approach. They're
not. We sort of over hired in2022 we hired a lot, and it
(06:25):
hasn't been nearly that samelevel for the last three years.
And so now we finally got afederal rate cut that should
allow for a little bit moreoptimism, I think, in the
market, and for employers totake a little bit more of an
aggressive look what they'rehiring. But when you have
volatility, when you have changeand a lot of other factors in
addition to weak consumer demandin the transportation logistics
(06:47):
sector, those companies aregoing to be a little bit more
reluctant to to increase theirhiring, especially at a time
like this. So that said, I do, Iknow we're going to maybe come
back around to this, but I amoptimistic on the future, in
particular, because what we haveseen is that as soon as any of
these things stabilize, as wereach these trade deals with
with partner nations, or evenjust sector by sector, as these
(07:09):
things eventually stabilize andand hiring managers see a little
bit more of that predictabilityin their costs. They realize
that there's so much good talentout there right now, and they
hire them. Now, and they hirethem really quick. So we've
already seen, I think, a bit ofa turnaround just with time, and
I think it's going to get
Blythe Milligan (07:25):
better from here on out. So what are the is
the big issues right now? Is itjust people pausing on hiring?
But what about the folks whomaybe want or maybe the
companies that want to keeptheir top performers during an
uncertain economy? Where are youseeing more shifts happening? Is
it the new hiring, or is itretention?
Unknown (07:42):
That's a good question.
I think when it comes tospecific roles in this kind of
market, we've seen an increasein hiring for sales specifically
because a lot of companies arefocused on anyone that can
improve their top line. Whenthey're seeing weak consumer
demand, for example, they'restill interested in hiring those
guys, especially if they can,for example, with logistics
brokerage, bring some immediatebusiness. Those really, really
(08:02):
popular those guys are gettinginterviews left and right, and
companies are taking extra stepsto keep them around. And we've
seen counter offers go out thatare significantly higher than
what that person was gettingpaid before, before we talked to
them. So that's one thing, Ithink, in a lot of ways as well.
When it comes to otherpositions, companies are kind of
struggling to find the right wayto keep talent, but I think that
(08:25):
they also know that there's nota whole lot of other
opportunities right now, and sosometimes they're sort of just
gambling on, you know, on folksnot seeing a lot out there. And
(09:28):
they sort of, as an average jobseeker, you're gonna hear a lot
of horror stories, especially ifyou spend any time on LinkedIn
about what the job market islike. And so I think sometimes
they are sort of sort of bankingon that fact that there's not a
whole lot of opportunities outthere for most positions that
we're seeing. SoI do want to touch on that for a
minute, because there's a lot Iyou know, I follow LinkedIn
subreddits, and they're talkingabout, oh, all these fake
(09:51):
applications, or, you know, fakejob postings. It's a lot of AI
generated slop that exists onLinkedIn. What is sort of, how
does a recruiter manageLinkedIn?
Yeah, for us, I think when youlook at LinkedIn as a platform,
it's, it's pretty much, I thinkof LinkedIn as a sales platform.
(10:11):
And so when I'm when I'mmanaging all of that stuff
that's on there, one of thethings that's most frustrating
too, is seeing those kind ofscams and the stuff that's not
really genuine out there. Forexample, a lot of people are
getting these indeed textmessages now that people
claiming to be from indeed, orpeople messaging them on
LinkedIn about a job, and it'snot real. The only way that we
found to get through that noiseis to be authentic, is to
(10:34):
connect with someone on apersonal level and have an
actual like discoveryconversation with them, rather
than just going straight for thepitch and saying, out of
nowhere, I don't know, you willhave a job for you. You great
for it. No one believes that,like you don't even know you
know what I mean. So connectingwith them as a human and saying,
Hey, how are you are you happywith where you're at in your
career. What is your future?
What are you interested in thefuture? And is there a way that
(10:54):
our services as a recruitingagency can meet your career
desires and goals? And ifthere's alignment there, then
great, let's talk. And if not ano harm, no foul. So I think
that's the only way. Is really,really just leaning in on the
authenticity, especially when itcomes to a platform that is is
highly sort of modified. Peoplepresent themselves in a certain
way on social media, andLinkedIn is in a corporate
(11:17):
setting, it can get a lot worse.
So, yeah, you just have to beyou have to be yourself. And
that's, that's the only, I thinkthere's also
the spray and pray that LinkedInalmost encourages and tries to
make it easy, especially forsales folks who. Trying to reach
out to as many people aspossible. I've even seen the
other day that this hack wentviral, where this guy took this
(11:38):
almost instructions for like anLLM, put it in his bio, and so
he can easily now tell which ofthe, I guess the AI slop or the
AI slop for sales is reachingout to him, because they'll send
him recipes. And that was theprompt in his bio, which I
thought was fantastic. I do wantto go back to what you're
currently looking at now. As faras the market is concerned, are
(12:01):
there certain roles that are inneed right now that you're
you're trying to find roles foror fits for?
Yeah, a lot of our clients arein heavy need of drivers. In
particular, there is just such aneed for those guys. And they
really are just the backbone ofthese trucking companies. It's
the guys who are over the road,drivers, CDL guys, other kinds
(12:22):
of vehicles, that they needdrivers for. So that's going to
be a consistent and ongoingdemand, and it's in more need
now than ever as well. Imentioned the sales roles too
are pretty high demand rightnow, those two positions, and
then also, any company that hasa fleet of trucks is going to
need mechanics to fix thosetrucks when they go down. So
we've seen actually a prettyincredible increase, even in
(12:42):
compensation levels, actually,for truck mechanics, guys who
can fix diesel engines and thenrefrigerated units, in
particular, on those on thosetrucks when they're moving
refrigerated freight, those guysmake they do pretty well. They
have very competitive pay. Sothose, I'd say, drivers,
mechanics and sales roles are inhigh demand right
Blythe Milligan (12:59):
now.
Interesting is it, what aboutfrom a company perspective?
Because I've heard you talk alot about the individual level,
but do companies hire you to,say, fill certain
Unknown (13:07):
roles? Yeah, for us as Headhunters, we're a little bit
more specialized on kind of thekey hire, rather than the
volume. So when a company isworking with us, it's usually a
good match. If they're lookingfor, you know, two to three
strategic hires or a couplemore, sometimes, depending on
the level, right, they need afew mechanics. We get them a few
mechanics. That's usually wherewe are a best match when it
(13:29):
comes to more high volume stuff,if they need someone to staff an
entire warehouse, for example.
For example, that's more alignedwith like a staffing company,
and a little bit outside of ourscope, but, but by and large,
we're sort of traditional headhunters, just focused on on
supply chain specifically.
Blythe Milligan (13:43):
So. So you mentioned earlier about how you
know certain roles are, I don'twant to say easier to fill. But
then there's more challenging,sort of managerial aspect, where
you got to be more of a peopleperson, and you got to have, you
know, people managing skills.
What, what kind of skill set areyou looking for, for that
demographic? Yeah,
Unknown (14:00):
it's, it's a great question, because it's so
interesting to think about whereI've come from in my career in
recruitment, and the kinds ofquestions I asked back then to
qualify someone for a role,versus the questions that I
asked. Yeah, well, first off, Ialways tell if I asked, if you
say, tell, if I ask, if you say,Tell me your story, what brought
you to where you are today. Iwant to know about you, what's
important to you, and that givesme kind of some insight on who
they are, how they communicate,their professional background.
(14:22):
Generally, they're pretty goodwith it. Some people overshare
which is, which is fine. I don'tpass all the bad information on.
But for management roles inparticular, I hate to go kind of
back to the cliche questions,but asking about things that how
they've overcome challenges inthe past, how they deal with
workplace conflict, becausethose things will happen. I
mean, it's life. These are thepeople that you're working with,
(14:43):
and so getting a sense of howthose people solve problems, how
they communicate with otherpeople. And can I, I always ask
myself, would I hire this personif I was in the hiring manager
shoes? And I think that'senabled us to be there at the
right level of selective withcandidates and and make sure
that we're only sending forwardthe best to to our clients. So
(15:03):
questions like that, stuff thatyou know at the same time
getting beyond kind of just thedistrict. Does this resume match
the job description, but is thisperson going to be value added
and be able to deliver businessvalue to that client company? So
Blythe Milligan (15:18):
yeah, it's interesting, because I just
thought about anotherconversation that I had with
another gentleman that wasfocused on hiring, but when he
was focused on hiring differentbrokers, he would actually go to
restaurants and fast food, andhe would find the people that
were really good at that job,because you're really good with
dealing with a variety ofdifferent people, and that's
(15:39):
what he would look for as far aslike a good dispatcher or good
broker. So it's interesting thatyou kind of have a similar
approach of what I hire thisperson, and if you wouldn't hire
them, then that's probably notgoing to be a good fit for
placement, for sure. And so whenyou're thinking about these
different hiring opportunities,or these different, I guess,
collaborative opportunities withthese different companies, what
(16:01):
does sort of the onboardingprocess look like, if I was just
a regular employee and I wantedto get a new better job, would I
be able to reach out to you,very similar to on the company
angle, if they have a need for acertain position, they can reach
out to you. And what do thoseonboarding processes look
Unknown (16:16):
like? Yeah, certainly, it's pretty easy. So my
alternate job title, in additionto managing partner, is head of
candidate success, and that'sreally what we're focused on. So
for professionals in the supplychain, if they're looking at new
roles, we have a website with aton of job postings on it. You.
And what's cool about workingwith a recruiter is that the
client companies are workingwith us. They're paying a fee,
so you know that they're seriousabout that role. There's a lot
(16:37):
of noise out there, a lot of jobpostings that are kind of just
always posted, but never reallygetting all the attention. And
so for us, it's as easy as justsending us a message on
LinkedIn, or emailing us, orcalling us, or whatever, and
getting in touch with withmyself, specifically talking
through, you know, what yourcareer goals are, and if we have
anything that's activelyaligned, or if we need to, just
need to take a look at, youknow, what companies are within
(16:58):
our network that we couldconnect that person with. And
then, fundamentally, I thinkthat, you know, recruiters are
advocates for the candidatesthroughout the process, or at
least they should be. And so wedo things like interview
preparation, we do resumecoaching, we fix we clean up
resumes before we submit them.
So we're not just, you know, wewant to make sure that our
candidates are as prepared forsuccess as possible. So we have
additional services that weoffer in addition to
Blythe Milligan (17:21):
that as well.
What does a good resume looklike nowadays?
Unknown (17:24):
Yeah, great question.
Pretty, pretty simply. I couldsay that a good resume is is
professional and metric driven,so the format itself doesn't
need to be too fancy. I think alot of people are are sort of
overthinking that, or adding alot of fancy colors and icons
and stuff that doesn't be onthere. They're putting pictures
and stuff on there that doesn'tneed to be there. So keep it
simple and kind of aprofessional format, and then
metrics make the mostdifference. So qualifying any
(17:44):
successes with percentageincreases or dollar values on
it, head count, numbers,anything like that will help
your resume stand out from kindof the general fluff out there
right now, which is mostly justa lot of, like, good language
that doesn't have any sort ofmeasurable achievement tied to
it. So that if people arelooking for resources, the
Harvard, Harvard Business Schoolhas, like, a resume guide that
(18:05):
they can look up. It's free. Andhonestly, when I was job
searching, like five years ago,that was the resume guide that I
use, and it worked pretty well.
And that is the format that whenwe are cleaning up our
candidates resumes as well, wefollow that. So a very cover
letter, still a thing. Mostly,not, thankfully. Yeah, most of
the time we don't see a need forit. I think there's, there's one
off situations where it mightbe, it might be required, but
(18:29):
generally, I think most peopleare not interested in that. Saw
somebody
Blythe Milligan (18:32):
make a comment the other make a comment the
other day, if you can't, youknow, take two minutes to make a
cover letter, then I don't wantto hire you for this role. And I
was like, wow, that's a
Unknown (18:40):
weird take. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of
interesting takes where peoplewill have very specific I saw
one that said, if someone showsup to an interview one minute
late, I'm not hiring thatperson. It's like, Hey, man,
life happens. I don't know ifyou've ever been late to an
interview. I have, but yeah, youknow, there's certain
particularities that companieswill have where it's like, okay,
if, if a cover letter isrequired, then yeah, you know,
you can type one up. But again,I think people will have this
(19:02):
tendency to, like, use AI to doit. And that's a mistake. That's
something that that is thatcover letter is a perfect place
to communicate yourauthenticity, your genuine
story, and tell those people whyyou are actually a good fit. And
so that's, that's kind of like,yeah, one of the things that I
would say, for cover letterspecific,
Blythe Milligan (19:20):
what about the software that automatically
analyzes your resume that you'resending in? How much of, how
much is that being used to justsort of whittle through, you
know, several differentapplications.
Unknown (19:31):
It certainly is a concern, I would say, for the
companies that we work with,because they sort of outsource
their recruitment process to us.
We put their resumes directly onthe hiring manager's desk, well,
virtually, but so there's nocrazy AI or ATS that's screening
people out or anything likethat. We have a candidate
snapshot that we submit as well.
(19:52):
So in addition to just theresume, we really align the
exact job description and whattheir key needs are with that
person and why we're sendingthem forward. So it's extremely
clear to the hiring manager andHR why this person is a good
match for kind of some of thejust the job seekers out there,
or the applicants that are notusing a recruiter. I always,
always advocate trying to make asome kind of personal connection
(20:15):
with the company, either callingin, which is something you can
do, and it's, it's not againstthe rules to call into a
company, talk to HR, say, Hey, Isubmit an application. You know,
just curious if you guys everhad a chance to review it, or
something like that. Becauseanything you can do to stand out
in this market is going to becritical. So
Blythe Milligan (20:31):
that's interesting, because there was a
one job I had where we weren'thiring, but the guy came in
every single day for like, twomonths, and ultimately we hired
him. Yeah, he was justpersistent, and it got the job
done. So if you are dedicatedenough and you don't send over a
15 page resume with a bunch oftypos and maybe chat GPT words
(20:51):
like Delve, then maybe you'llcut through the clutter Exactly,
exactly. Yeah, so let's talk alittle bit about what are
companies? Is there a particularskill set that companies are
hiring for right now? Is itadaptability? Is it willingness
to learn? Is it leadership?
Unknown (21:10):
That's a really good question. When I think about the
opportunities that have fallenthrough for the candidates that
we've placed, it's almost alwaysbeen because of a lack of
digital fluency, so they're notgreat with some of the basic
like emailing and Outlook. Toolsare not very communicative. You
(21:32):
can't reach them over text oranything like that. I think
people are sort of overestimating the importance of AI
knowledge right now. I thinkit's a lot less important to
really know how to use thatstuff. AI is great. We use it
for various things, but reallyjust kind of the brilliance and
(21:53):
the basics with your softwareplatforms, if it's a tech heavy
role in particular, but thattechnical competency has been
the thing that has sunk a coupleof opportunities for candidates
in the past, where they willsay, Hey, I'm great with Excel.
They'll say, Hey, I'm great withpresenting business concepts on
PowerPoint, but when the rubbermeets the road, they don't
(22:14):
actually really have that naileddown, you know. And for certain
roles, it's pretty key. Sothat's, that's what I would say,
is really hammering down onthose technical skills. Now,
where do you,
Blythe Milligan (22:24):
I mean, I know it's tough to predict what this
market is going to look like,but where are you? This is, you
know, we're recording this. It'sSeptember 30. October is
typically budgeting season for amajority of companies. Where do
you see, sort of the hiringtrends going in the new year?
Unknown (22:40):
Yeah, we're really optimistic for 2026 for a couple
of reasons. I talked about thestability that is coming back to
the supply chain as we reachthese trade deals, also the
federal rate cuts, I think aregoing to enable the folks
controlling the hiring processand the people management
executives to be a little bitmore comfortable with hiring in
(23:02):
2026 2025 has been really theyear of tariffs, the year of
instability for the supplychain, and so I think it's just
a matter of time until thingsreally start to take off again,
and we see another hiring boom.
Like I said, I think even asearly as the last couple of
weeks, when we heard about thefirst rate cut, we actually saw
an immediate response incompanies that were more
interested in working withrecruiters, looking at hiring
(23:25):
people. And one of the best sortof hidden indicators of a hiring
boom is when you see jobpostings for recruiters coming
up. And I've seen a lot ofrecruiters postings come up
recently. I'm like, Okay, thatis a great sign, because as I
sort of bring those people on,and you know, a week, few weeks,
months after that, they're goingto start hiring like crazy. So
So I think that's a great sign,and we're really optimistic for
(23:46):
that starting to happen in thenext few
months. So and that to kind ofpeek behind the curtain a little
bit that we started recordingearly because you said that you
were getting so many callstoday, and so it maybe ties in
with that recent rate cut. Andso hopefully, hopefully, you
know, we're starting to see alight at the end of the tunnel
of all of this instability. Andhopefully, you know, we're
getting into a world where it'sa little bit more stable and
(24:08):
people can make thoseinvestments into candidates that
make the most sense.
Yeah, and change is hard. Nomatter what, situation in the
market is never going to beperfect, the job market in
particular, so having a partnerrecruiting agency like us at
Brown and pierce has worked outreally well for a lot of our
clients. I think they're happy.
And so we're going to continueto try to provide as much value
as we can to anyone who's who'sinterested in figuring out how
to navigate this market today,in this this particular sector,
(24:31):
so that's what we're here for,and that's what we love doing.
That's a
Blythe Milligan (24:36):
perfect place, I think, to end this
conversation. So Jake, where canfolks follow you? Get in touch
with you if they're interestedin making the switch, or even
companies that are looking tostart making those hiring
decisions, where can they reachout? You can find
Unknown (24:46):
us at Brown and pierce.com or look me up on
LinkedIn, Jake brown on there,and we'll connect with you.
Awesome. Thank you so much. Allright, hey, thanks. Great
interview. Appreciate it.
Blythe Brumleve (24:57):
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of
everything is logistics, wherewe talk all things supply chain,
for the thinkers in freight, ifyou like this episode, there's
plenty more where that camefrom. Be sure to follow or
subscribe on your favoritepodcast app so you never miss a
conversation. The show is alsoavailable in video format over
on YouTube, just by searchingeverything as logistics. And if
(25:18):
you're working in freightlogistics or supply chain
marketing, check out my company,digital dispatch. We help you
build smarter websites andmarketing systems that actually
drive results, not just vanitymetrics. Additionally, if you're
trying to find the right freighttech tools or partners without
getting buried in buzz words,head on over to cargorex.io
where we're building the largestdatabase of logistics services
(25:41):
and solutions. All the links youneed are in the show notes. I'll
catch you in the Next episodeand go jags. You.
Unknown (26:10):
You.
How are you liking the summit so far?
Jake Brown (00:44):
Really enjoying it, actually? Yeah. I think these
kind of events are supervaluable for especially for
recruiters like me, andhonestly, just learning from
people about what they havegoing on, it gives you an
insight that you just can't getfrom, like researching a company
through their website and what'savailable online. So talking to
people, I think, is just soimportant. And I'm, I am in the
(01:05):
people business, after all. SoSo I love events like this.
Unknown (01:08):
Well I think that that is I'm actually going to keep
that in the show, because Ihaven't. I'm going to do a quick
intro, but that was a great wayto sort of kick off the
conversation, right? So welcomein, everybody to another episode
of everything is logistics, apodcast for the thinkers and
freight we are proudly presentedby SPI logistics, and I'm your
host, Blythe Milligan, we arelive on site at the Florida
supply chain summit in myhometown of Jacksonville,
(01:29):
Florida, and also your hometownof Jacksonville, Florida. We
were speaking to Jake Brown,managing partner at Brown and
Pierce, a recruiting agency forthe logistics industry. And you
have, we were talking last nightat the welcome reception, and
you have quite an interestingbackground, because you're a
veteran, a former Marine, youalso have manufacturing
experience, and then that ledyou to opening up your own
company. Do I have thathistorical, career history
(01:50):
timeline down that's pretty accurate?
Yeah, really, I was, I wasraised out in the southwest, in
New Mexico, and then decidedthat the military was going to
be the path for me, and I joinedthe Marines. I was lucky enough
to go to the Naval Academy, andthen did my five years there as
a manpower officer. So actually,even from my time in the
military, my whole career hasbeen focused on people, manpower
(02:12):
problems, staffing solutions andthings like that, and that's
just what I'm passionate about,too. So when I got out of the
Marines, I fell right into aveteran owned recruiting agency
in the manufacturing sector,actually, and I did everything
from recruiting technicians upto the executive executive
level, and I learned a lot aboutkind of why companies are
focused on hiring and why It'sso important to get hiring done
(02:35):
right, because it's such a sortof a concept that a lot of
people don't really, they don'treally understand sometimes, on
what all goes into it and whyit's so critical. So got some
good exposure there. And thenafter about three years of doing
that, my business partner and I,who was also a Marine veteran,
decided we were going to spinoff on our own and and one year
(02:55):
ago, actually, we started Brownand pierce consulting, and we
just had our one yearanniversary. And since then,
we've grown so much. We've goneto we're at over, over two dozen
clients now across 13 states,and that's starting from from
absolutely nothing. We just havecreated a very large footprint
already, and if anything else,it just shows that there is a
need for for good hiringservices. So just quickly, 4000
(03:18):
clients. No, no. Sorry. Twodozen clients.
Okay, two dozen. I was like,whoa.
We're not that big yet, but overtwo dozen clients in one year,
and we spread to 13 differentstates up and down the East
Coast, a little bit out towardsthe Midwest as well. So, so
let's, I want
Blythe Milligan (03:32):
to stick with manufacturing for a minute,
because there, obviously,there's a big push here,
nationally, especially withinthe government, to push more US
based manufacturing. I'mcurious, with your time spent in
that segment of you know, thesort of supply chain process,
what were some of the biggestgaps that you saw missing from
the employee base? I guess that,or the employee needs of some of
(03:53):
these big manufacturers?
Unknown (03:54):
Yeah, pretty much everyone is going to need. The
skilled trades, the technicians,those guys who know how to fix
specific kinds of equipment. Ifyou're in the plastics industry,
for example, there's veryspecific kind of extrusion
equipment that is going to needa technician that knows how to
fix it. Or, just as anotherexample, like CNC equipment,
when they're cutting metal,those are like very specialized
machines, and they can be reallylarge too. So the technicians,
(04:18):
those kind of careers are alwaysgoing to be very high demand in
terms of employment. We also didback this was at my previous
company, but we focus prettyheavily on kind of middle
management as well. And I thinkfor hiring, specifically, when
you're looking at those, thosetechnical skill sets, if someone
can do the job, they'regenerally a safe hire. For
management, it's a lot moreabout soft skills. It's a lot
(04:39):
more about that the impact ofthat person is going to have can
be so amazing or alsodetrimental. So it's really,
really important to getmanagement positions right. And
that was another area that wasthat was pretty common when we
were doing manufacturing so
Blythe Milligan (04:50):
and so, as you moved into starting your own
company, why do you still focusor maybe have a sector of
manufacturing, or what does itwhat does the kind of playbook
look like?
Unknown (05:00):
Yeah, right, right now.
We're, we're pretty exclusivelyfocused on transportation and
logistics right now. So we sawthe supply chain sector as one
that was really that had a tonof great potential. We really
liked the future of the supplychain sector in America and
Florida specifically, but we sawthat was underserved from a
recruitment perspective. Somanufacturing, there's a ton of
recruiters in this space, not somuch with supply chain. And so
(05:22):
we sort of saw that as, from afrom a business perspective, a
bit of a blue ocean. We talkedabout the concept of not having
too much competition. And so wesaw that we knew some of the big
names we talked about, thenyesterday as well, but we just
felt that this was absolutelythe right sector. We. A little
bit of exposure to it comingfrom manufacturing, because
they're so integrated with thelargest supply chain picture.
But, but ultimately, we just,kind of, we just dove right into
(05:43):
transportation logistics, andthat's where we got all of our
focus right now. So, so
Blythe Milligan (05:48):
when we're talking about transportation
logistics, I think, you know, asa as a country as a whole,
there's a lot of sort ofreporting around the challenges
of of hiring, the challenges ofretention. I'm imagining that a
lot of those same issues areexisting in transportation
Unknown (06:04):
logistics. Yeah, certainly. I think in
transportation logistics inparticular, there's added
volatility, mostly due to thetariffs. And so, you know, you
can take a look at the overallhiring market, you can look at
the numbers from the BLS, forexample, and see that a lot of
companies are sort of in thiswait and see approach. They're
not. We sort of over hired in2022 we hired a lot, and it
(06:25):
hasn't been nearly that samelevel for the last three years.
And so now we finally got afederal rate cut that should
allow for a little bit moreoptimism, I think, in the
market, and for employers totake a little bit more of an
aggressive look what they'rehiring. But when you have
volatility, when you have changeand a lot of other factors in
addition to weak consumer demandin the transportation logistics
(06:47):
sector, those companies aregoing to be a little bit more
reluctant to to increase theirhiring, especially at a time
like this. So that said, I do, Iknow we're going to maybe come
back around to this, but I amoptimistic on the future, in
particular, because what we haveseen is that as soon as any of
these things stabilize, as wereach these trade deals with
with partner nations, or evenjust sector by sector, as these
(07:09):
things eventually stabilize andand hiring managers see a little
bit more of that predictabilityin their costs. They realize
that there's so much good talentout there right now, and they
hire them. Now, and they hirethem really quick. So we've
already seen, I think, a bit ofa turnaround just with time, and
I think it's going to get
Blythe Milligan (07:25):
better from here on out. So what are the is
the big issues right now? Is itjust people pausing on hiring?
But what about the folks whomaybe want or maybe the
companies that want to keeptheir top performers during an
uncertain economy? Where are youseeing more shifts happening? Is
it the new hiring, or is itretention?
Unknown (07:42):
That's a good question.
I think when it comes tospecific roles in this kind of
market, we've seen an increasein hiring for sales specifically
because a lot of companies arefocused on anyone that can
improve their top line. Whenthey're seeing weak consumer
demand, for example, they'restill interested in hiring those
guys, especially if they can,for example, with logistics
brokerage, bring some immediatebusiness. Those really, really
(08:02):
popular those guys are gettinginterviews left and right, and
companies are taking extra stepsto keep them around. And we've
seen counter offers go out thatare significantly higher than
what that person was gettingpaid before, before we talked to
them. So that's one thing, Ithink, in a lot of ways as well.
When it comes to otherpositions, companies are kind of
struggling to find the right wayto keep talent, but I think that
(08:25):
they also know that there's nota whole lot of other
opportunities right now, and sosometimes they're sort of just
gambling on, you know, on folksnot seeing a lot out there. And
(09:28):
they sort of, as an average jobseeker, you're gonna hear a lot
of horror stories, especially ifyou spend any time on LinkedIn
about what the job market islike. And so I think sometimes
they are sort of sort of bankingon that fact that there's not a
whole lot of opportunities outthere for most positions that
we're seeing. SoI do want to touch on that for a
minute, because there's a lot Iyou know, I follow LinkedIn
subreddits, and they're talkingabout, oh, all these fake
(09:51):
applications, or, you know, fakejob postings. It's a lot of AI
generated slop that exists onLinkedIn. What is sort of, how
does a recruiter manageLinkedIn?
Yeah, for us, I think when youlook at LinkedIn as a platform,
it's, it's pretty much, I thinkof LinkedIn as a sales platform.
(10:11):
And so when I'm when I'mmanaging all of that stuff
that's on there, one of thethings that's most frustrating
too, is seeing those kind ofscams and the stuff that's not
really genuine out there. Forexample, a lot of people are
getting these indeed textmessages now that people
claiming to be from indeed, orpeople messaging them on
LinkedIn about a job, and it'snot real. The only way that we
found to get through that noiseis to be authentic, is to
(10:34):
connect with someone on apersonal level and have an
actual like discoveryconversation with them, rather
than just going straight for thepitch and saying, out of
nowhere, I don't know, you willhave a job for you. You great
for it. No one believes that,like you don't even know you
know what I mean. So connectingwith them as a human and saying,
Hey, how are you are you happywith where you're at in your
career. What is your future?
What are you interested in thefuture? And is there a way that
(10:54):
our services as a recruitingagency can meet your career
desires and goals? And ifthere's alignment there, then
great, let's talk. And if not ano harm, no foul. So I think
that's the only way. Is really,really just leaning in on the
authenticity, especially when itcomes to a platform that is is
highly sort of modified. Peoplepresent themselves in a certain
way on social media, andLinkedIn is in a corporate
(11:17):
setting, it can get a lot worse.
So, yeah, you just have to beyou have to be yourself. And
that's, that's the only, I thinkthere's also
the spray and pray that LinkedInalmost encourages and tries to
make it easy, especially forsales folks who. Trying to reach
out to as many people aspossible. I've even seen the
other day that this hack wentviral, where this guy took this
(11:38):
almost instructions for like anLLM, put it in his bio, and so
he can easily now tell which ofthe, I guess the AI slop or the
AI slop for sales is reachingout to him, because they'll send
him recipes. And that was theprompt in his bio, which I
thought was fantastic. I do wantto go back to what you're
currently looking at now. As faras the market is concerned, are
(12:01):
there certain roles that are inneed right now that you're
you're trying to find roles foror fits for?
Yeah, a lot of our clients arein heavy need of drivers. In
particular, there is just such aneed for those guys. And they
really are just the backbone ofthese trucking companies. It's
the guys who are over the road,drivers, CDL guys, other kinds
(12:22):
of vehicles, that they needdrivers for. So that's going to
be a consistent and ongoingdemand, and it's in more need
now than ever as well. Imentioned the sales roles too
are pretty high demand rightnow, those two positions, and
then also, any company that hasa fleet of trucks is going to
need mechanics to fix thosetrucks when they go down. So
we've seen actually a prettyincredible increase, even in
(12:42):
compensation levels, actually,for truck mechanics, guys who
can fix diesel engines and thenrefrigerated units, in
particular, on those on thosetrucks when they're moving
refrigerated freight, those guysmake they do pretty well. They
have very competitive pay. Sothose, I'd say, drivers,
mechanics and sales roles are inhigh demand right
Blythe Milligan (12:59):
now.
Interesting is it, what aboutfrom a company perspective?
Because I've heard you talk alot about the individual level,
but do companies hire you to,say, fill certain
Unknown (13:07):
roles? Yeah, for us as Headhunters, we're a little bit
more specialized on kind of thekey hire, rather than the
volume. So when a company isworking with us, it's usually a
good match. If they're lookingfor, you know, two to three
strategic hires or a couplemore, sometimes, depending on
the level, right, they need afew mechanics. We get them a few
mechanics. That's usually wherewe are a best match when it
(13:29):
comes to more high volume stuff,if they need someone to staff an
entire warehouse, for example.
For example, that's more alignedwith like a staffing company,
and a little bit outside of ourscope, but, but by and large,
we're sort of traditional headhunters, just focused on on
supply chain specifically.
Blythe Milligan (13:43):
So. So you mentioned earlier about how you
know certain roles are, I don'twant to say easier to fill. But
then there's more challenging,sort of managerial aspect, where
you got to be more of a peopleperson, and you got to have, you
know, people managing skills.
What, what kind of skill set areyou looking for, for that
demographic? Yeah,
Unknown (14:00):
it's, it's a great question, because it's so
interesting to think about whereI've come from in my career in
recruitment, and the kinds ofquestions I asked back then to
qualify someone for a role,versus the questions that I
asked. Yeah, well, first off, Ialways tell if I asked, if you
say, tell, if I ask, if you say,Tell me your story, what brought
you to where you are today. Iwant to know about you, what's
important to you, and that givesme kind of some insight on who
they are, how they communicate,their professional background.
(14:22):
Generally, they're pretty goodwith it. Some people overshare
which is, which is fine. I don'tpass all the bad information on.
But for management roles inparticular, I hate to go kind of
back to the cliche questions,but asking about things that how
they've overcome challenges inthe past, how they deal with
workplace conflict, becausethose things will happen. I
mean, it's life. These are thepeople that you're working with,
(14:43):
and so getting a sense of howthose people solve problems, how
they communicate with otherpeople. And can I, I always ask
myself, would I hire this personif I was in the hiring manager
shoes? And I think that'senabled us to be there at the
right level of selective withcandidates and and make sure
that we're only sending forwardthe best to to our clients. So
(15:03):
questions like that, stuff thatyou know at the same time
getting beyond kind of just thedistrict. Does this resume match
the job description, but is thisperson going to be value added
and be able to deliver businessvalue to that client company? So
Blythe Milligan (15:18):
yeah, it's interesting, because I just
thought about anotherconversation that I had with
another gentleman that wasfocused on hiring, but when he
was focused on hiring differentbrokers, he would actually go to
restaurants and fast food, andhe would find the people that
were really good at that job,because you're really good with
dealing with a variety ofdifferent people, and that's
(15:39):
what he would look for as far aslike a good dispatcher or good
broker. So it's interesting thatyou kind of have a similar
approach of what I hire thisperson, and if you wouldn't hire
them, then that's probably notgoing to be a good fit for
placement, for sure. And so whenyou're thinking about these
different hiring opportunities,or these different, I guess,
collaborative opportunities withthese different companies, what
(16:01):
does sort of the onboardingprocess look like, if I was just
a regular employee and I wantedto get a new better job, would I
be able to reach out to you,very similar to on the company
angle, if they have a need for acertain position, they can reach
out to you. And what do thoseonboarding processes look
Unknown (16:16):
like? Yeah, certainly, it's pretty easy. So my
alternate job title, in additionto managing partner, is head of
candidate success, and that'sreally what we're focused on. So
for professionals in the supplychain, if they're looking at new
roles, we have a website with aton of job postings on it. You.
And what's cool about workingwith a recruiter is that the
client companies are workingwith us. They're paying a fee,
so you know that they're seriousabout that role. There's a lot
(16:37):
of noise out there, a lot of jobpostings that are kind of just
always posted, but never reallygetting all the attention. And
so for us, it's as easy as justsending us a message on
LinkedIn, or emailing us, orcalling us, or whatever, and
getting in touch with withmyself, specifically talking
through, you know, what yourcareer goals are, and if we have
anything that's activelyaligned, or if we need to, just
need to take a look at, youknow, what companies are within
(16:58):
our network that we couldconnect that person with. And
then, fundamentally, I thinkthat, you know, recruiters are
advocates for the candidatesthroughout the process, or at
least they should be. And so wedo things like interview
preparation, we do resumecoaching, we fix we clean up
resumes before we submit them.
So we're not just, you know, wewant to make sure that our
candidates are as prepared forsuccess as possible. So we have
additional services that weoffer in addition to
Blythe Milligan (17:21):
that as well.
What does a good resume looklike nowadays?
Unknown (17:24):
Yeah, great question.
Pretty, pretty simply. I couldsay that a good resume is is
professional and metric driven,so the format itself doesn't
need to be too fancy. I think alot of people are are sort of
overthinking that, or adding alot of fancy colors and icons
and stuff that doesn't be onthere. They're putting pictures
and stuff on there that doesn'tneed to be there. So keep it
simple and kind of aprofessional format, and then
metrics make the mostdifference. So qualifying any
(17:44):
successes with percentageincreases or dollar values on
it, head count, numbers,anything like that will help
your resume stand out from kindof the general fluff out there
right now, which is mostly justa lot of, like, good language
that doesn't have any sort ofmeasurable achievement tied to
it. So that if people arelooking for resources, the
Harvard, Harvard Business Schoolhas, like, a resume guide that
(18:05):
they can look up. It's free. Andhonestly, when I was job
searching, like five years ago,that was the resume guide that I
use, and it worked pretty well.
And that is the format that whenwe are cleaning up our
candidates resumes as well, wefollow that. So a very cover
letter, still a thing. Mostly,not, thankfully. Yeah, most of
the time we don't see a need forit. I think there's, there's one
off situations where it mightbe, it might be required, but
(18:29):
generally, I think most peopleare not interested in that. Saw
somebody
Blythe Milligan (18:32):
make a comment the other make a comment the
other day, if you can't, youknow, take two minutes to make a
cover letter, then I don't wantto hire you for this role. And I
was like, wow, that's a
Unknown (18:40):
weird take. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of
interesting takes where peoplewill have very specific I saw
one that said, if someone showsup to an interview one minute
late, I'm not hiring thatperson. It's like, Hey, man,
life happens. I don't know ifyou've ever been late to an
interview. I have, but yeah, youknow, there's certain
particularities that companieswill have where it's like, okay,
if, if a cover letter isrequired, then yeah, you know,
you can type one up. But again,I think people will have this
(19:02):
tendency to, like, use AI to doit. And that's a mistake. That's
something that that is thatcover letter is a perfect place
to communicate yourauthenticity, your genuine
story, and tell those people whyyou are actually a good fit. And
so that's, that's kind of like,yeah, one of the things that I
would say, for cover letterspecific,
Blythe Milligan (19:20):
what about the software that automatically
analyzes your resume that you'resending in? How much of, how
much is that being used to justsort of whittle through, you
know, several differentapplications.
Unknown (19:31):
It certainly is a concern, I would say, for the
companies that we work with,because they sort of outsource
their recruitment process to us.
We put their resumes directly onthe hiring manager's desk, well,
virtually, but so there's nocrazy AI or ATS that's screening
people out or anything likethat. We have a candidate
snapshot that we submit as well.
(19:52):
So in addition to just theresume, we really align the
exact job description and whattheir key needs are with that
person and why we're sendingthem forward. So it's extremely
clear to the hiring manager andHR why this person is a good
match for kind of some of thejust the job seekers out there,
or the applicants that are notusing a recruiter. I always,
always advocate trying to make asome kind of personal connection
(20:15):
with the company, either callingin, which is something you can
do, and it's, it's not againstthe rules to call into a
company, talk to HR, say, Hey, Isubmit an application. You know,
just curious if you guys everhad a chance to review it, or
something like that. Becauseanything you can do to stand out
in this market is going to becritical. So
Blythe Milligan (20:31):
that's interesting, because there was a
one job I had where we weren'thiring, but the guy came in
every single day for like, twomonths, and ultimately we hired
him. Yeah, he was justpersistent, and it got the job
done. So if you are dedicatedenough and you don't send over a
15 page resume with a bunch oftypos and maybe chat GPT words
(20:51):
like Delve, then maybe you'llcut through the clutter Exactly,
exactly. Yeah, so let's talk alittle bit about what are
companies? Is there a particularskill set that companies are
hiring for right now? Is itadaptability? Is it willingness
to learn? Is it leadership?
Unknown (21:10):
That's a really good question. When I think about the
opportunities that have fallenthrough for the candidates that
we've placed, it's almost alwaysbeen because of a lack of
digital fluency, so they're notgreat with some of the basic
like emailing and Outlook. Toolsare not very communicative. You
(21:32):
can't reach them over text oranything like that. I think
people are sort of overestimating the importance of AI
knowledge right now. I thinkit's a lot less important to
really know how to use thatstuff. AI is great. We use it
for various things, but reallyjust kind of the brilliance and
(21:53):
the basics with your softwareplatforms, if it's a tech heavy
role in particular, but thattechnical competency has been
the thing that has sunk a coupleof opportunities for candidates
in the past, where they willsay, Hey, I'm great with Excel.
They'll say, Hey, I'm great withpresenting business concepts on
PowerPoint, but when the rubbermeets the road, they don't
(22:14):
actually really have that naileddown, you know. And for certain
roles, it's pretty key. Sothat's, that's what I would say,
is really hammering down onthose technical skills. Now,
where do you,
Blythe Milligan (22:24):
I mean, I know it's tough to predict what this
market is going to look like,but where are you? This is, you
know, we're recording this. It'sSeptember 30. October is
typically budgeting season for amajority of companies. Where do
you see, sort of the hiringtrends going in the new year?
Unknown (22:40):
Yeah, we're really optimistic for 2026 for a couple
of reasons. I talked about thestability that is coming back to
the supply chain as we reachthese trade deals, also the
federal rate cuts, I think aregoing to enable the folks
controlling the hiring processand the people management
executives to be a little bitmore comfortable with hiring in
(23:02):
2026 2025 has been really theyear of tariffs, the year of
instability for the supplychain, and so I think it's just
a matter of time until thingsreally start to take off again,
and we see another hiring boom.
Like I said, I think even asearly as the last couple of
weeks, when we heard about thefirst rate cut, we actually saw
an immediate response incompanies that were more
interested in working withrecruiters, looking at hiring
(23:25):
people. And one of the best sortof hidden indicators of a hiring
boom is when you see jobpostings for recruiters coming
up. And I've seen a lot ofrecruiters postings come up
recently. I'm like, Okay, thatis a great sign, because as I
sort of bring those people on,and you know, a week, few weeks,
months after that, they're goingto start hiring like crazy. So
So I think that's a great sign,and we're really optimistic for
(23:46):
that starting to happen in thenext few
months. So and that to kind ofpeek behind the curtain a little
bit that we started recordingearly because you said that you
were getting so many callstoday, and so it maybe ties in
with that recent rate cut. Andso hopefully, hopefully, you
know, we're starting to see alight at the end of the tunnel
of all of this instability. Andhopefully, you know, we're
getting into a world where it'sa little bit more stable and
(24:08):
people can make thoseinvestments into candidates that
make the most sense.
Yeah, and change is hard. Nomatter what, situation in the
market is never going to beperfect, the job market in
particular, so having a partnerrecruiting agency like us at
Brown and pierce has worked outreally well for a lot of our
clients. I think they're happy.
And so we're going to continueto try to provide as much value
as we can to anyone who's who'sinterested in figuring out how
to navigate this market today,in this this particular sector,
(24:31):
so that's what we're here for,and that's what we love doing.
That's a
Blythe Milligan (24:36):
perfect place, I think, to end this
conversation. So Jake, where canfolks follow you? Get in touch
with you if they're interestedin making the switch, or even
companies that are looking tostart making those hiring
decisions, where can they reachout? You can find
Unknown (24:46):
us at Brown and pierce.com or look me up on
LinkedIn, Jake brown on there,and we'll connect with you.
Awesome. Thank you so much. Allright, hey, thanks. Great
interview. Appreciate it.
Blythe Brumleve (24:57):
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of
everything is logistics, wherewe talk all things supply chain,
for the thinkers in freight, ifyou like this episode, there's
plenty more where that camefrom. Be sure to follow or
subscribe on your favoritepodcast app so you never miss a
conversation. The show is alsoavailable in video format over
on YouTube, just by searchingeverything as logistics. And if
(25:18):
you're working in freightlogistics or supply chain
marketing, check out my company,digital dispatch. We help you
build smarter websites andmarketing systems that actually
drive results, not just vanitymetrics. Additionally, if you're
trying to find the right freighttech tools or partners without
getting buried in buzz words,head on over to cargorex.io
where we're building the largestdatabase of logistics services
(25:41):
and solutions. All the links youneed are in the show notes. I'll
catch you in the Next episodeand go jags. You.
Unknown (26:10):
You.
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