Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to
Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You're in a very good
accent, reed.
He has a great accent forsaying my last name.
Hi and welcome to episode 177of Finding your Way Through
Therapy.
Happy you're here.
If you haven't listened toepisode 176, go back and listen.
Stephanie Simpson I don't know.
I've always enjoyed talking toher.
We talked about coaching, wetalked about education, we
talked about our own limits andour own self-limiting thoughts.
(00:58):
So it was a great interview.
So please go back and listen.
But episode 177 will be withsomeone who also was I contact
me via email and is is someonewho was unfortunately in the
troubled teen industry, or TTIsometimes, as it's known.
Her name is Meg Applegate.
She has a great book out.
I think I got about halfwaythrough, just being truthful,
(01:18):
right, but her book is reallygood.
Surviving and fighting thetroubled teen industry Becoming
unsilenced is the title of thebook, so go listen to.
I'm going to list it in theshow notes.
But Meg is a co-founder ofunsilenced, a nonprofit
dedicated to ending theinstitutional child abuse of
troubled teen industry.
She's a survivor of twoprograms and she details her
harrowing experience and theurgent need to reform.
(01:39):
With a background in psychologyand extensive nonprofit
management, meg is committed toending abuse in the troubled
teen industry and I know she'sgoing to talk about that and
securing justice for survivors.
So very interesting stuff, kindof new stuff for my podcast.
So I hope you enjoyed theinterview here.
It is GetFreeai.
(02:05):
Yes, you've heard me talk aboutit previously in other episodes
, but I'm going to talk about itagain because GetFreeai is just
a great service.
Imagine being able to payattention to your clients all
the time, instead of writingnotes and making sure that the
note's going to sound good, andhow are you going to write that
note and things like that.
Notes and making sure that thenote's going to sound good, and
how are you going to write thatnote and things like that.
(02:26):
Getfreeai liberates you frommaking sure that you're writing
what the client is saying,because it is keeping track of
what you're saying and willcreate, after the end of every
session, a progress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
suggestions for goals, givesyou even a mental status if
(02:46):
you've asked questions aroundthat, as well as being able to
write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
speeds up the progress noteprocess so well, and for $99 a
month.
I know that that's nothing.
(03:08):
That's worth my time, that'sworth my money.
You know.
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(03:33):
off for the first month and,like I said, get a full year,
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So get free.
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Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 177.
I get contacted regularly forguests to come on to my podcast
and I always take about a day ortwo to respond, and sometimes
(04:17):
it's not a good fit.
Sometimes it is.
I think.
I read the one sheet, as theycall it, for Meg, and I think I
responded within five minutesbecause I want to hear Meg
Applegate's story myself.
Meg Applegate is a CEO ofwhat's the name of the company
(04:39):
Unsilenced Unsilenced when youwrite terribly, you can't read
your own writing.
So that's great.
But, meg, welcome to Findingyour Way Through Therapy.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Thank you, I'm glad
to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Well, you know,
sometimes people think it's all.
You say these things justbecause you say them, because
you do a podcast or whateverTruly took me five minutes, meg.
I'm like, please, please, Iwant to meet Meg.
Oh, that's so sweet.
So I was really excited and Iget to read.
As my audience knows, and asyou probably, I told you before
the interview, I read about halfthe book.
I'm then finished a book.
(05:11):
I never lied to anyone.
I try to be as honest as Ipossibly can in life, and I
highly recommend it for therecord.
I want everyone to read itbecause we need to address this
issue of the troubled teenindustry and how it's treated.
But it's not my story to tellat all and I would love for you,
meg, to kind of introduceyourself to my audience.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, well, thank you
.
My name is Meg Applegate, I'mthe CEO of Unsilenced and I'm
also a survivor of institutionalabuse, and I spent about three
and a half years in the troubledteen industry, spread out
through two different programs.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
And I remembered a
Chrysalis program as one of them
.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
So first
Intermountain Hospital in Boise,
Idaho, and then I went toChrysalis, which was in northern
Montana, right next to theCanadian border.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Those Canadians be
careful with that.
But you know, I know it's goingto sound silly and again, I
highly recommend people will gocheck it out and go read the
book.
It's going to seem like a sillyquestion but the constant
question in my podcast all thetime is the same one is have you
ever been in counseling or intherapy?
And of course I kind of aroundage 10, where I wasn't in some
type of therapy or guise oftherapy.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I should also say as
since the triple team industry
was really a guise in my opinion, but yes, I have been not only
in therapy and counseling, butpretty much every type of
(06:40):
counseling and therapy that likeexists today, so I've tried a
lot of different things.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Yeah, and you know
when you said that, you know.
One of the questions that cometo mind is everyone has their
favorite modality?
I'm trained in cognitivebehavioral therapy.
I do eye movement,desensitization and reprocessing
.
That doesn't mean they're myfavorite all the time.
Different people that needdifferent things.
That's just how I work.
In your experience, what wasthe best modality for treatment
for you?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
I think it differs
really when you think about what
you're trying to treat, right.
I think that if I think aboutmy panic disorder and what I've
dealt with in my life anddissociation, I would say
biofeedback has been reallyhelpful.
If I think about my triggersand my CPTSD, then EMDR has been
really helpful.
If I think about my autism andhow I'm relating to the world
(07:31):
and processing in that regard,then ACT therapy has been super
helpful.
So it's kind of ACT stands foracceptance commitment therapy,
and so it's great for peoplelike me who are really rigid in
morals and values, because it'sreally based about doing the
right thing, based on yourvalues and moral system and then
(07:52):
also just fully accepting whoyou are because and those
thoughts that come along withbeing who you are.
So I think one of the ways thatI struggled in CBT as an
autistic individual was thatit's about rewriting your
thoughts and kind of retrainingyour brain to think in a
positive way.
But the reality is is that weall have negative thoughts and
(08:12):
that's okay and we need toaccept them without judgment,
and I think that was a big partof why I love that type of
therapy.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And I think that
you're absolutely right.
I you know I I don't treat CBT,everyone with CBT.
I don't treat everyone with CBT.
I don't treat everyone with.
Emdr obviously the reason why Italked about.
Sorry for being a pain aboutACT, but we all know the
acronyms, but I always assumethat my audience needs to know
what they mean.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
And working with
personality disorders, I thought
dialectical behavioral therapywas amazing, if you do it right.
Of course, I'm talking aboutthe real model by Marsha Linehan
and I'm actually trained andapproved by Linehan's people and
I think that that's what isimportant.
I always like that question toask my guests because I'll tell
you the other answer I loveBecause it comes a little bit of
(09:00):
what I've learned in my career.
It's not about the modality,it's about the connection to
your therapist 100%.
And to me like I could be doingwhatever type of therapy, but I
don't feel a connection.
It's going to suck.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And if you're doing
it in the wrong way and you're
not respectful of your client,it's going to suck.
I think a Bormathe I caughtthis actually this morning.
He was talking about a studythat when two people are sitting
in a room therapists, friends,whatever when they start
connecting with their brainwaves and their heart waves,
healing tends to take place Notall the time, but it tends to
(09:40):
take place.
And that's why I tell people,like a modality, whenever
someone comes in and says oh, Iknow you do this or whatever
they choose, and I go let'sconnect first and then we'll go
from there, right, and I thinkyou bring up two really
interesting things just even inthis short amount of time so far
.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
One is you brought up
that not every modality can
treat all different individuals.
There is no one size fits allfor therapy.
And then the second thing thatyou brought up which I thought
was interesting was that shoot,what did the?
What you just said, my brainthe connection with the brain
right.
Having that, having a connectionwith your therapist, is
(10:17):
paramount.
Connection is key, right?
And if you look at the troubledteen industry, there is no
connection because you areoftentimes kidnapped in the
middle of the night to go be apart of therapy for months or
years.
So there really is a mistrustin that relationship with your
therapist.
And then the second part it isa one size fits all.
They say, hand me your teenagerand I'll quote fix them right.
(10:39):
And so it is.
It's, it's trying to fix allthese different things,
everything from learningdisorders all the way to eating
disorders, and with one sizefits all.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Right, and you know
we.
You just mentioned the troubledteen industry and the ones you
know, the one size fits all.
And we're going to fix you.
Boy, do I have things to sayabout that too?
And we're gonna fix you.
Uh, boy, do I have things tosay about that too?
Uh, because I, when people askme about like can you fix me?
And I'm like I've seen over 10000 people in my career.
I have fixed zero.
I am still screwed up and Ican't even fix myself.
(11:13):
But I gave a lot of tricks tomyself and other people for them
to get better and feel better,but I've never fixed a person.
Um, how about we define alittle bit of what that means
about the troubled teen industry?
Because if I don't know whatthat is, I knew what it was, but
if someone is listening for thefirst time, how would we define
the troubled teen industry?
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Yeah, so really, in
my mind, the troubled teen
industry is a network ofpowerful and punitive congregate
care facilities or residentialfacilities that claim to All in
quotation.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Go to my YouTube.
It's all quotations here.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yes, exactly that
claim to fix youth, but in
reality it's all non-evidencebased and they're claiming to
fix things like homosexuality orfix things like, you know,
learning disorders or autism,you name it.
So anything from behavioralissues, mental health issues,
(12:08):
eating disorders, things likethat.
They claim to be a one sizefits all for this.
Unfortunately, the kids who aregoing into these facilities
oftentimes leave callingthemselves survivors, which
obviously no therapy shouldcause someone to become a
survivor.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
So if, if you, any of
my clients, ever say to me they
survived my therapy, I would belike I'm very sorry.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Whatever?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I did.
Sue me, please.
I wouldn't want anyone to saythat about me.
You know I think I go back tomy generation and you know I'm a
little older and you know, whenI was a kid there was like TV
shows about scared straight,which is oh yeah, for sure, that
was, that was treatment.
Again, quotation marks.
Yes, exactly, I know you.
You know if you read the book.
(12:52):
I don't want you to sell thewhole book, but you know it was
a powerful statement.
I think it was in the firstchapter when you talked about
how you were brought to thefacility.
Can you describe what the teen,the troubled teen industry does
to bring you to a facility?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, so oftentimes
they convince caregivers that it
is imperative that the child bebrought to the facility through
measures that are called escortservices.
If you're a survivor, we callit gooning, and it is when they
recommend that they wake up thekid in the middle of the night.
I was woken up at like 1 or 2am or something like that, and I
(13:29):
was told that I was coming withthem and that we can do this
the easy way or the hard way.
They then proceeded to have mein dress in front of them, they
watched me go to the bathroom,and then they threw me into the
back of an SUV and brought me tothe airport, where I wasn't
allowed to know where I wasgoing.
And it was.
They made sure I knew that if Imisbehaved I would be put in
handcuffs.
And the sad, the really reallysad part beyond, you know the
(13:52):
obvious signs of being kidnappedis that these parents are
thinking they're doing the rightthing and they're thinking
they're listening to againquotations, professionals, right
, and the sad reality is thatit's a lot of deceptive
marketing and fear mongeringgoing on.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
It truly is and you
know again, it's going to
believe me.
I'm just reading half the bookalready and I'm going to finish
that book, I promise I want youwhoever is listening right now
and wants to know how terribleit is read the first few
chapters and how it goes from.
You know the troubled teen thatmeg was and I know you had some
issues.
I'm not saying that it was noteasy, it was easy.
(14:28):
But from those to apparentparents who are desperate, who
want that help and want to savetheir child and they're sold on
this bs, if you ask me.
It's just scary to think whatyou know, what you went through
during that time and we talked alittle bit about our responses
to trauma, because it's atraumatic event.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Right.
Well, I think that another thingthat my book highlights is and
this is a sad reality for manysurvivors that I've talked to is
the gap in understanding ofwhat a child or a teen could be
going through in their own lifeand what the parents see.
A lot of times, parents just seewhat they consider again,
quotes, misbehaviors, or actingup or pushing back against
(15:08):
authority when in reality, ifyou read my book, you'll
understand that a lot of timesthese kids are going through
trauma, like absolute trauma,their parents just don't know,
and these behaviors that theirparents are deeming as
unacceptable and needing to befixed are oftentimes just a
result of that unaddressedtrauma.
And so it provides insight intowhat could possibly be going on
(15:30):
in your kid's life when thereare misbehaviors, because I
would venture to guess and thisis true for myself and you'll
read in the book that a verylarge portion of survivors,
before being sent away, had somekind of sexual or physical
assaults going on.
And so it's really important,when you see these behaviors in
teens, to instead of put abandaid over it and be like
(15:52):
let's fix the behavior, the endresult, and figure out what's
actually going on within thatteen and how you can support
them.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Right, and you know
again.
I encourage people to read thebook because you know when
something may have occurred likethat to you.
You were punished because youweren't in school and it
occurred Exactly, exactly, whichis the truly fucked up part.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I know it really is.
It really is.
And the part that's even morecrazy is for those that haven't
read the book yet I was sexuallyassaulted, but before that
sexual assault I chose to leaveschool and ditch school and
drink alcohol, and the guy thatbought us alcohol is the one who
sexually assaulted us.
And so the school ended upkicking me out because I
(16:40):
consumed alcohol during schoolhours not on campus, but during
school hours and because of thatthey expelled me.
And then the FBI, who wasactually involved told my
parents because I had lied abouthow I got off campus because I
was scared to get in troublethat they didn't believe I was
sexually assaulted.
And the crazy thing is thatonly two summers ago no, no, no,
(17:01):
one summer ago my parents foundout that I actually was.
They didn't know, I had nevertold them.
I figured they believed me whenI told them, but the FBI told
them I wasn't, because I hadlied about one thing, so I had
to have been lying abouteverything.
So that highlights anotherimportant aspect of being a
victim and just the aspect ofnot being believed and victim
blamed like that.
It's another important aspectof being a victim and you know,
just the aspect of not beingbelieved and victim blamed like
(17:23):
that.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Victim blaming
happens still to this day,
particularly to women, andthat's another story for a
different day, I think, becauseI can talk about that for hours.
And you know, if I hear onemore time what were you wearing
and what did you say, If I hearthat one more time, I'm going to
scream.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Oh my gosh, I know it
happens, I mean even in my book
.
When that cop that walked byand saw what was going on in the
park, even just a little bit,there was a weird thing with the
30-something-year-old guysitting there and two young
15-year-olds.
He chose to inquire about whywe're not in school versus
(18:04):
following the guy that had twogirls in a park and so like.
That shows just how off thesystem is if they're focusing on
that.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
The system is off on
so many levels and you know I
work with a lot of firstresponders and for the most part
I think first responders wantto do the right thing.
Some of them turn a blind eyeand I'm not going to go into too
many of those stories either,but that's the minority, not the
majority.
For those of you who know allthis, and if you don't stop
lumping all cops in the samerealm, Exactly.
(18:33):
Do something screwed up,exactly Sorry, and that's my
little soapbox.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
No, I mean, I think
really it comes down to us as a
society not providing theeducation needed within these
jobs.
I mean, that's what it comesdown to.
It's not a personal attack,it's more like, hey, what are we
going to do within theseagencies to help make sure that
all who work for them understandthe nuances that come with
different situations?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Right situations
Right, and I mean you know
you're literally when you talkabout where you were in your the
troubled team in the industryand where they put you in a
facility.
You had no outside contact.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
Correct, that wasn't
monitored.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yes, yeah, and it was
monitored and you know how does
it feel after you leave for one, two, three years in these
programs.
How the hell do you go back tothe you know in relation to
therapy, in relation to theworld, because you can't really
like and trust therapy at thatpoint because of what happened.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
But that would be my
two cents, but again I want to
hear it from you.
Well, so I actually considermyself lucky because I was so
incredibly brainwashed.
You know, when we talk aboutthings like Stockholm syndrome,
I, I a hundred percent had thatvery protective of my abusers
and so I actually went leftChrysalis, graduated it and went
straight to college.
(19:47):
So there was no freedom toabsolute freedom and I I'm
thankful that I was brainwashed,because I think I would have
gone downhill a lot faster if Iknew I had been abused at that
point but that protected me tobe able to actually get a degree
, you know, and go into mycareer.
But the end result of that wasthat a slow breaking down of my
(20:09):
mental health and my body, untilI was finally realizing why
that was happening, which isbecause I was holding back
trauma and not addressing itRight.
But I think that you know, mytwo abusers were my therapists
and so what that does is it?
It taints that entirerelationship or future
relationship that you think isgoing to happen, right?
(20:30):
So in the future, after leavingChrysalis, if I'm struggling, I
think about going to atherapist and I'm like, oh, you
get that kind of feeling likewhat if they?
What if they confront me, likeyou know my therapist did?
What if they trigger that part?
And that's on top of the factthat for a survivor of
institutional abuse to find atherapist that understands what
(20:51):
that is and knows what thetroubled teen industry is and
can understand that the nuancesinvolved with that, like how
we're going to be sensitive tocertain things, how we're going
to be triggered by certainthings, is extremely difficult.
So I heard one survivor oncetell me that every new therapist
she has she comes with aPowerPoint presentation because
there's so much to tell thistherapist in such a short amount
(21:13):
of time and you end up spendingthree or four sessions just
explaining why you are the wayyou are and explaining what
happened to you, just explainingwhy you are the way you are and
explaining what happened to you.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Right and for the
record, being a therapist who
I'm, I've never been unethicalthat I know of or no one has
ever accused me of that.
That wasn't therapy, that wasabuse.
Right, what you went through?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, because as much
as sometimes the shaved head
and the goatee can intimidatesome people.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
I've never
intimidated one of my clients
and it's terrible when you havetherapy that because that's what
you carry with you, that's whatyou think it is.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Yep, exactly.
But I think it's also importantfor survivors out there that
are potentially listening, thatwere abused by therapists in or
out of the troubled teenindustry, that that they
understand that there is anotherside to that right.
There is the ethical therapistand it does exist, and once
you're able to find someone youconnect with it's, it's
(22:12):
transformational and it reallyis worth it Trying to go out and
therapist shop.
There's nothing wrong with thatto have a session, be like not
a fit, go to the next one,because when you find someone
that can help you, your body andyour mind will thank you in the
long run, I promise.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
The, the therapist
shopping is something I
encourage for people because Itell everyone I'm not everyone's
cup of tea and there's nothingwrong with that.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
There's nothing wrong
with that at all.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
I'm not personalizing
any of that, but I know a lot
of therapists.
You know I've had clients whohave been with terrible
experiences with male therapists.
They try me out and I stilldon't feel it All right, I'll
give you an understandable.
Or if they like, I want to trythis and oh, this really works
out, okay, great, but ultimatelyit's it's like a little bit of
(23:00):
like a second, like we don'thave a problem in the medical
world to say I want a secondopinion, but in mental health,
oh, this is a therapist I got.
I'm like I don't know, I'm kindof an abrasive therapist.
I like I put up with a lot ofstuff in my therapy sessions,
but I, you know, like my clientsknow that I'll call them on
their shit and sometimes somepeople don't like that and
(23:21):
that's okay, there's nothingwrong with that and they're not
a fit for you, right.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
You know and you
mentioned the Stockholm syndrome
earlier.
I just want to quickly explainto everyone the Stockholm
syndrome has to do with.
When you are a hostage, youstart really connecting to the
people keeping you hostage.
That's Stockholm syndrome.
Just want to mention that too.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah, it's you know
you develop compassion towards
your abusers and almost a needto protect them, which is, you
know, kind of the version offawn, right it's.
You know, fight, flight, freezeor fawn are really the, you
know, the trauma responses andit's kind of a constant state of
really freeze and fawnresponses and it's kind of a
(24:04):
constant state of really freezeand fawn.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Honestly, when I was
in my programs.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
So Well, you couldn't
flight.
Nope, it wasn't an option, youcouldn't fight.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Because there was
consequences, you were put in
the I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
We used to call it
the quiet room for yes, the QR,
yeah, there was a QR, but thatwasn't in Chrysalis, that was in
the hospital.
But yeah, I mean, and if youmade a mistake or if you tried
to run a chrysalis, oh I mean,that's like the scarlet letter,
like if you try to leavechrysalis, you were your entire
family as you've built thisfamily.
They tell you their family willbe gone.
You will be excommunicatedwhich is why I draw those
(24:33):
comparisons in my book to, in myopinion, chrysalis being more
akin to a cult and you will beexcommunicated if you make
certain mistakes to a cult andyou will be excommunicated if
you make certain mistakes.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And that's why I
think the FON response you know
it's still not quite likerecognized in the trauma field,
but to me FON is something thatpeople do to protect themselves
and I was doing a training nottoo long ago with a bunch of
police officers and when Iexplained the fawn response a
lot of them looked like oh, yeah.
(25:06):
Like they.
It almost kind of like I couldsee the light bulb go off Like
oh, that, like I've seen thatyeah.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I'm sure they see it
a lot.
One way I put it in my book iscause it's hard to kind of
explain the fawn response, andone thing I have found really
connects with people isexplaining it this way If there
is a poisonous snake that bitesyou, the normal response would
be okay, I got to go get somemedical attention, I got to make
sure to get some anti-venom andyou're going to take care of
(25:32):
yourself, right, and you'regoing to protect yourself from
that snake.
The fawn response, or thetrauma bond, if you will, would
be more so trying to find thatsnake to convince it that you
didn't deserve that bite, andyou're going to argue with it
because you think you're betterthan that bite and you know,
like trying to explain thatyou're actually a good person
and you don't deserve a bite,right?
(25:53):
So instead of self-care, you'rein protection of yourself.
You're going to go try to makeit up to them, make sure that
your relationship is still okay.
That's fun right, that's the wayI like to think of it and
literally, the poison is stillgoing through your veins.
Correct, you are dying becauseof the poison, but you're more.
It's the people pleaser, right?
It's kind of that same thing.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
People.
Pleasing happens a lot inpeople, intimidation situations,
and all that because that's howyou survive, those types of
things, people intimidationsituations and all that, because
that's how you survive thosetype of things.
Yep, I know we were talkingright before pre-interview about
, you know, domestic violence,and it really is akin to
domestic violence in many ways.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Oh, it's extremely so
.
The trauma bond I mean, thatsnake scenario is, is on repeat
within a domestic violencesituation and which I have been
a part of twice before.
I found my current husband andit's incredibly common.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
And getting out of it
is extremely difficult, because
very difficult.
I've had this conversation withone of my one of my clients I'm
not going to share the wholestory and they say well, you do
fond to survive for so long.
You think that that's how yousurvive in life, correct?
And it's hard to convince youotherwise because it's true, it
(27:06):
kept you alive.
So you know, when somethingworks for human beings, they
repeat it.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
Correct, and in the
case of domestic violence, if
they fawn, fawn, fawn, fawn andfreeze, freeze, freeze and
nothing happens, sometimes theyfight, and during that fight,
the abuser then Darvo's it rightback to them and they become
the abuser, and then they'reheld accountable for the
reactive abuse Right, and soit's a lose-lose situation for
(27:32):
everyone Right and you know, Iknow it's a very common theme
now in social media, but it'sliterally gaslighting too.
Oh yeah, I mean it's intense.
It's intense how a abuse victim, within that kind of scenario,
actually thinks that they're theproblem and the amount of
gaslighting.
And a lot of abusers are very,very good at that making the
(27:53):
victim think that they areactually the issue.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So I mean that's why
going back to FON is a survival
skill for a lot of people In thetroubled teen industry.
You need the fawn in order tosurvive, because what else are
you going to do to survive there?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yep.
And you know that if you don't,you're going to end up in the
worst program.
And they tell you that, Like Ihave like 10 journals that I'll
read through and it'll be likeoh, so-and-so went to Provo
Canyon School because theyweren't following the rules at
Chrysalis.
Like they would tell us all thetime like you're going to go to
wilderness program if you don't, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So it's a lot of kind ofcomparing and contrast and
(28:29):
making it seem like Chrysalisoffered you such freedom and
you're in a good place and don'tmess up or you'll, or else
you'll end up in the bad places.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah, again cult-like
.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yes, correct.
In my opinion, that's what itwas.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
That's what the cults
like to make you feel right,
and I think that what a lot ofpeople struggle with.
And I have a friend of minewho's had a teenager, who's had
struggles in her life.
But then you know about thetroubled teen industry.
We talked about it here.
If you don't know about it,we'll talk a lot more and you
can go look it up if you want to.
But what are the treatmentoptions?
(29:05):
When you do have a teen, becauseyou think you're doing the
right thing?
They call you.
You call them up.
They're telling you we're goingto help you, we're going to fix
your child, we're going to makesure she's safe or he's safe,
or and we're going to do that bykidnapping them.
They don't use the word kidnap,it's just transportation,
(29:25):
escort, escort, sorry, yes, yes,but you know, what advice do
you have for parents who are inthese situations where they
might have a troubled teen, butthey don't, you know, they don't
want to be going into thetroubled teen industry where
they want to get some goodtreatment?
Do you have any advice for them?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, I mean.
I think that that advice, as itshould be is very tailored to
what that child is going through, unlike what the troubled teen
industry can offer you, and whatthey'll tell you is that they
can help regardless of what itis, and it really depends on
what the teen is going through.
But pretty much across theboard, the first thing I
recommend to parents is to lookat yourself and to get yourself
some support.
(29:58):
Your child is not going to getthrough anything unless you are
strong and have a support system, and the way that that looks is
sometimes getting a therapistand being able to talk about the
issues within the parentingstructure that's going on.
And what I really suggest, andwhat personally has worked for
me, is getting a parent coach,and the amazing thing about a
(30:19):
parent coach is that your childdoesn't have to know that you're
getting this in the background,right?
So all of a sudden, yourparenting techniques are going
to be starting to change andyou'll start noticing your kid's
behavior starting to change andthey're not having the stigma
as labeled as going to therapy.
So first I would say, as longas it's not a health crisis and
there's no immediate needs forsafety and security, that you
(30:42):
try a parent coach and then,when it comes to the kid, and
let's say that that's not ableto be efficient.
There are so many differenttypes of community based
programs and therapies that areso highly effective and, for
instance, you know we have a lotof therapies within the justice
system that haven't reallysprouted out a ton into
(31:04):
community-based, but they are sohighly researched and effective
and, like family systemstherapy, it's extremely
effective and it's researchbacked and it's underutilized.
And then also, a lot of kidsare lacking peer support, like,
let's say, they're bullied orthey don't fit in, or perhaps
(31:24):
they're in foster care and don'thave a parent or someone to
look up to, an adult that theycan model after, right, and
those kinds of cases.
Going to nonprofitorganizations like Big Brothers,
big Sisters, who we'repartnered with, being able to
offer them peer support and havethat one adult growing up that
is helping them through the hardstuff, right, that can make the
(31:45):
world of a difference.
So looking into community-basedorganizations Also, just like I
said, instead of putting aBand-Aid over what the behaviors
that are happening, that arereally happening because of
something that's underlying, Iwould say really figuring out
what is going on with the childand a lot of times that's just
sitting down in a nonjudgmentalway and saying how can I help
(32:06):
you, how can I support you?
This is going to becontroversial that I say this,
but I truly believe it thatbecause we have kids, you know
they start off as toddlers andour entire world is making sure
that they don't die and theydon't make bad decisions and
they don't go up the stairsbecause they can fall, and we
protect, protect, protect.
And at a certain point in time,right around that adolescent
(32:28):
stage, we have to shift ourparenting techniques to being
more of a guide instead of aprotector and we have to let
them experience life, and so oneof the things that I think is
really important is making surenot to parent these kids too
much that are struggling and bemore of a support system and a
guide, to be there.
For myself, it's more importantthat my kids know they can tell
(32:51):
me anything without beingpunished than to be the one
trying to control theirbehaviors.
Right and having naturalconsequences are fine, but not
imposing outrageous consequences.
So, for instance, if your kid isdeciding oh, I'm going to drop
out of school, I'm not going tokick them out of the house
because they're not making thedecision to stay and get their
(33:12):
diploma, but a naturalconsequences is that they won't
get a diploma and naturallywon't get maybe as good of a job
, right, but have those naturalconsequences and have you be
there for when they realize ohno, mom, I made a mistake, and
that's the most important part,because many parents that that
send their kids I would say amajority of relationships of the
(33:34):
parents that send their kids tothese programs no longer have
relationships with their kidsbecause of the abuse that the
kids went through and thedistrust that was created in
that relationship with theirparents.
So the most important thing ifyou want to continue the
relationship with your kids isto make sure you listen to them,
you support them and that it'smore of a guide and they're to
(33:55):
support and find differentmethods of supporting with
whatever they want, instead offorcing them into things.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
There's two things.
I'm going to ask you a questionafter I point out that what?
I can't remember who had saidthis, but I think that once they
hit the 12, 13, 14 age aroundthere and I don't have an exact
age, sorry everyone I tellpeople you become a consultant
to your child.
You're a very importantconsultant, but nonetheless
you're a consultant and youusing the same punishment or
(34:24):
trying to helicopter them orprotect them too much, you're
actually not teaching themanything.
You're teaching them thatthey're helpless, correct?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Go ahead, yeah, go
ahead.
No, I want to hear you.
I think that what you'rehighlighting also is the
pathologization that hashappened with adolescents in
general within our society.
If you look at Erickson'spsychosocial stages of
development, when you get intoage 12 to 18, you're going to be
going through the stages thatwhat highlight a normal
(34:55):
development to be is pushingback against parents.
They are finding their purposein the world where they stand,
and how you figure out yourplacement in society is by
pushing back on the mechanismsthat we've been groomed to just
accept as how they are, andthat's going to build a strong
adult is by having a child thatknows that they can push back
(35:16):
and they'll still be loved, andthat's how they find out who
they are.
So if we pathologize things likeskipping out on classes super
normal, I have to say very, verynormal or you know, all of a
sudden grades dropping supernormal, you know.
Playing around with substancesand smoking weed, or starting to
have sex, or trying to figureout their sexual identity or
gender identity super, supernormal.
(35:38):
And it actually highlights yourkid is going through what
they're supposed to be goingthrough, and so we need to be
able to help support them in asafe way so that they can do
that in a safe manner as theygrow older.
Obviously, if they're addictedto certain substances, that's a
whole different story, right.
But understanding our ownperception, maybe on the way
that we were parented on our ownkids, and making a conscious
(35:59):
decision to understand is thisbehavior bad because I don't
like it and I wouldn't make it,or is it, you know, trying to
figure out why you have thatperception of that kid being
quote, troubled?
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Right, and I think
that that's exactly right.
I you know my kids.
They're both teenagers andsometimes they'll like ask me
well, what's cocaine?
What does it do?
Yeah, exactly, I give them a, astraight answer and a lot of
people like you can't say thatto your kids.
I'm like they're going to readfalse information on the
internet or I give them theright answer.
I'd rather give them the rightanswer and I have those
(36:33):
conversation with my kids.
You know, if you drink smoke,do whatever you're feeling.
Like you're lacking judgment,call me, I'll go and get you
questions that night.
I'm not saying the next day Imight not have a few questions,
but that night when picking youup we're going home and, if
anything, my kids are notcurious about any of these
things because I keep the wide,open conversation.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
Yeah, and here's the
thing is they're teenagers and
our goal is to make sure thatwhen they're adults, they know
how to handle things.
And I would at least for me, Iwould much rather my teenagers
go through these really harddecisions, whether it's through
relationships, red flags thathappen, or it's substance abuse
and being exposed to be able tounderstand what certain things
and how they affect your body.
(37:17):
I'd rather go on while they'restill in the house and I'm still
their parent, right, and beable to educate them so when
they're on their own, theyalready know all this stuff and
they don't have to go through itwithout the support system.
And I, you're exactly right.
I would answer that questionhonestly too and just be like
this is what it does, this isthe effect and this is the
possible outcome.
If you start to make thosedecisions, you know and it needs
(37:37):
to be their own decision, notout out a fear-based don't do
that or you'll die.
Right, the the dare.
Don't do drugs.
Things just doesn't.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
It doesn't work right
and I, and I think we've come
and again, I'm in thatgeneration too, so I'm not
blaming other people, I'mincluding myself.
I, I mean, I've taken the let'sopen and talk about everything
approach yeah but a lot ofparents are like why are you
asking me this question?
Why?
Why are you asking aboutcocaine?
Because they want to ask aboutcocaine, Let them ask.
(38:06):
I'm sorry I'm picking oncocaine right now, but it could
be a bunch of different things.
Speaker 3 (38:11):
No, it could be
anything no-transcript.
(38:31):
She is as supportive as I am,and she is really good and that
helps too, but you know, we worktogether.
Parent yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
So you know, I think
the other part too is the
vilification.
When you talk about the parentswho get divorced and they start
vilifying the other parent hey,it didn't work out between me
and her, but we still need to begood parents together and she's
really.
She's really good at that andI'd like to think I've done a
pretty good job as a co-parentmyself.
That's great, but ultimately, Ithink that that's what you're
(39:00):
right.
You know, these parents arefeeling like they need an answer
and, unfortunately, when I havehad my clients ask me about
their kids who are troubled andall that, I always remind them
like you can get the easysolution, but you're going to
pay the price in the long term.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
No, it's exactly
right, because I was just about
to say that if you're looking atyour child and you're thinking,
oh my gosh, what's going onjust seems so complex and their
quote issues seem so complex,you have to stop and think that
if something seems complex, thenthe answer is obviously going
to be complex as well, and thereis no easy solution to a
complex answer.
(39:35):
It's going to take, you know,finding one thing, trying it on,
and if it doesn't fit, you trythe next thing and you see what
works for that child, becausethere is not, there is no one
size fits all when it comes toparenting or any kind of issues
that adolescents have.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I mean, I know you
have kids too, so you know when?
When my wife gave birth?
At the time I looked for themanual attached to placenta, but
there wasn't any.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
So talk about that in
my book, like the fact they let
me go home without a manual.
It's like whoa.
What were they thinking?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I literally about
that in my book, like the fact
they let me go home without amanual.
It's like whoa, what were theythinking?
I literally that's what was myfirst thought when I got in the
car and I was going home with mywife and my first child.
I'm like they let me go, arethey dumb?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, what the hell's
wrong with them?
Speaker 3 (40:16):
I know exactly.
Parenting is figuring it out asyou go and trying harder the
next day and just repeat.
You know, and my mom told mesomething once.
She said parenting is justtrying something and if it
doesn't work you try somethingelse and you never stop trying.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
And the other thing
that I want to mention, because
some of these facilities fortroubled teens can cost a lot of
money.
If you think throwing money atthe problem is going to solve
your problem, you're the problem.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Correct and these
places are.
You know we're talking aboutfive to $40,000 a month, so very
expensive.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
So that's why the
other part I want to mention.
I think some people are likethat's worth it.
I'm going to get a loan becausethey're going to be doing a
great thing.
Throwing money at it will notsolve your problems.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
No, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
It doesn't.
As we wrap up here, you know wetalked about your book.
I'd like to know again wherecan we find the book, the title
and everything else that goeswith that?
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Yeah, so it's called
Becoming Unsilenced, surviving
and Fighting the Troubled TeenIndustry, and you can find it on
Amazon.
It's available pretty soon onaudiobook.
I just recorded that.
So it's going to come out inthe next couple, probably in the
next couple of weeks, maybe twoa month.
We also have it on Kindle andyou can find it on
barnesandnoblecom as well, butAmazon is really the easiest
(41:38):
place to be able to get it.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And again I've read
like and what I've read so far
is amazing.
I and I don't say those thingsjust to be nice, it's the truth.
So you may not listen to mypodcast every week, but one
thing I pride myself on is neverlying.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
So that's
appreciative.
I I absolutely applaudauthenticity.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
And then the other
thing too, is you know, when
these kids come out andsometimes they got a lot of like
like they they may need anattorney because there was a lot
of bad things that happened.
There Is there.
Do you have any resources forthem?
Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
We've actually uh, withinunsilenced, we have just
launched an attorney directorywhich is online.
It's a attorneysonsilencedorg,and it allows survivors to go
there and be able to find anattorney that can potentially
litigate their case, and allthose statutes of limitations
are very, very short and a lotof these states where these
(42:31):
programs are located.
You know, if you're a survivorthat came out within the last
couple of years and you want tofind justice, this is a really
good option for you, and ifyou're an attorney personal
injury attorney out there thatis specializing in any kind of
abuse cases sexual, physical orinstitutional abuse you can sign
up for our directory as well,to be featured on that, to be
(42:53):
connected to other survivors.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Any fees.
Speaker 3 (42:56):
So we offer there is
a free membership for attorneys.
That is a kind of a smallermembership.
And then we also offersponsorship opportunities, as we
are a nonprofit and rely on ourgenerous donors.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Well, don't be afraid
to ask for those sponsorships.
That's why I threw that outAbsolutely.
So I'm going to link that allin the show notes so they can go
and check it out.
Awesome and Meg, I can't tellyou this was as painful as it
was to hear your story.
I like to see the other side.
You know, you look amazing, yousound amazing and the work
(43:31):
you're doing is exactly whatpeople need.
So I truly, truly appreciateyou and everything you can do.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Thank you, I
appreciate that recognition.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So I hope we meet
again at some point Me too,
because I'd love to hear somefollow-up on this.
But I hope you again at somepoint because I'd love to hear
some follow-up on this.
But I hope you stay in touch.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Well, this concludes
episode 177.
Meg Applegate was an amazingguest.
Thank you so much.
Go check her website, go checkher book.
There's so many things that wecan talk about.
My next episode 178, I actuallyhaven haven't figured out what.
What thing I want to talk about.
And, to be truthful and being alittle very transparent, I'm
recording this a little inadvance, before that show, so I
(44:11):
have plenty of time to change mymind, and I know it's going to
be November.
We can talk about the holidays,we can talk about a bunch of
different things, but I'll seewhat I feel like when I get
closer to that date.
So I hope you come in then.
My guess is it's going to beabout the Surviving, the.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Holidays.
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(44:51):
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