January 23, 2026 • 43 mins
Margaret Hoover sits down with Mayor Brandon Johnson in Chicago to talk about his clash with the Trump administration over immigration enforcement and the political and fiscal challenges that cities are facing today.
Johnson discusses the role of mayors in challenging the president’s policies and the limitations of a local government taking on the federal government.
He offers advice for fellow progressive New York Mayor Zohran Mamdani and reflects on some of the setbacks he has faced advancing his own agenda in Chicago after voters and the City Council rejected two major tax proposals.
Johnson, a former public school teacher, also addresses Chicago’s rising public pension costs, his alignment with the teachers union, and whether ICE should be abolished.
Support for Firing Line with Margaret Hoover is provided by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Pritzker Military Foundation, Cliff and Laurel Asness, Katharine J. Rayner, Charles R. Schwab, Lindsay and George Billingsley, The Meadowlark Foundation, Jared Stone, and Al and Kathy Hubbard.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
This president is determined to provoke chaos.
You know, when we think about the last contribution of
Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior community or chaos,
even in the midst of chaos, if we can focus our energy around
the needs of everyday people, I believe that it has a better
chance of preventing the type ofchaos that this president is
determined to unleash. Chicago's Mayor Brandon Johnson
(00:27):
discussing the challenges big city mayors are facing in Donald
Trump's second term. I'm Margaret Hoover.
This is the FIRING Line podcast.When progressive Brandon Johnson
took office in 2023, the former social studies teacher faced a
wide range of challenges. The people of this city elected
(00:49):
me to build a safe and an affordable city, and we're doing
that. Including a school system
plagued by debt, absenteeism andunder enrollment.
I'm the first mayor in the history of this city to actually
send my children to the public schools.
I believe in them that much thatI'm willing to send my kids
there. Pension payments that eat up
nearly 1/4 of the city's budget.Look, it's a both and approach.
(01:09):
We have to invest in our future while also ensuring that past
mistakes are addressed. And a City Council with its own
agenda. There are members of the City
Council more interested in protecting corporate interests
than protecting the interests ofeveryday people.
And all of that was before President Trump unleashed ICE.
We have a mayor there who's totally incompetent.
He's an incompetent man. But despite a string of
(01:31):
political setbacks, Johnson remains defiant.
The fact of the matter is, whether it was civil rights or
women's rights or any other right that we were able to
secure, you may not be able to do that in the first round.
That doesn't give you an excuse to just stand idly by and just
twiddle your thumbs. Mayor Brandon Johnson, welcome
(01:51):
to Firing LINE. Hey, thanks for having me and
happy New Year. Happy New Year, Thank you for
welcoming me to your city here here in Chicago.
This week marks the 40th federalobservation of Martin Luther
King Junior Day. President Trump has claimed
recently that the civil rights movement has led to white people
(02:13):
being, quote, very badly treatedas Chicago's fourth black mayor.
How do you think about King's legacy in this country one year
into Donald Trump's second term as president?
Yeah, well, look, first of all, you know, Reverend Doctor Martin
(02:33):
Luther King Junior, arguably thebest, you know, human being to
walk the planet and, you know, he has a special place.
More than Jesus, I know you havethe son of son of pastors.
Yes, I am, you know, well, I said human being, you know, he
didn't take on the form of God, but he certainly embodied, you
know, the spirit, right. And Doctor King has a real
(02:54):
special place for us here in Chicago.
You know, he came to the city ofChicago fighting for fair
housing and public accommodations as a whole as
that Southern strategy to bring equity and justice to the
Southern states. He understood that we needed to
capture the North as well as a refuge for for all of humanity.
(03:16):
And you know, he said that if wecan do it right in Chicago, and
I'm paraphrasing, we can do it anywhere in the world.
And, you know, as I think about his legacy and as we ensure that
the city of Chicago becomes the safest, most affordable big city
in America, I am living out, youknow, the, the testimony and the
hopes and aspirations of of Doctor King as we build more
(03:39):
affordable homes, as we invest in young people, invest in our
public education system. It's quite upsetting, of course,
as you can imagine, for the for the president of the United
States of America to make such an assertion.
So, first of all, he's wrong. And I believe that our country
is better because we have civil rights.
And as long as we continue to fight for the civil rights of
(04:00):
every single individual, we can finally, you know, live out the
true aspirations of these UnitedStates.
Have white people been very badly treated because of the
civil rights movement? Not at all.
Not in the least bit, right? To suggest that somehow the
liberation of a particular groupis somehow going to be
detrimental to another. That's just not the case here.
(04:21):
And, you know, again, for the president to make that type of
claim, it shows you how disconnected he is from reality.
But we're familiar, you know, with his abnormality and his
behavior. But we're going to remain
focused to continue to bend thatarc of justice towards the hopes
and aspirations of, of of this nation, whether you're black,
brown, white, Asian, young or old, that you get to live out
(04:45):
the full creed of what this country has been moving towards
as we fight for civil rights foreveryone.
In the wake of the recent ICE shootings and killings in this
city and in Minneapolis, last week, the city of Chicago and
the state of Illinois filed A lawsuit against the federal
government alleging that the Trump administration's
(05:09):
immigration crackdown has violated the United States
Constitution. The lawsuit alleges that ICE
agents have acted as occupiers rather than officers.
It charges Border Patrol and ICEagents with arresting people
without warrants, using chemicalweapons against law abiding
citizens, and rampaging through Chicago lawlessly stopping and
(05:31):
arresting residents. How effective can a mayor be
when standing up against the federal government?
Well, the first I, I can tell you, it's not something that I,
you know, could have imagined when I took on this
responsibility that we would have to as mayors, that we would
have to fend off the federal government from constitutional
(05:56):
overreach. You know, when the president was
attempting to send federal troops, the National Guard, from
other states to the city of Chicago, we effectively filed a
lawsuit and the United States Supreme Court agreed with our
claim. Rules in your favor.
Exactly. And so I believe what has what's
(06:17):
increasingly clear is that as executives, as mayors, and
particularly as I lead this cityusing executive authority,
including litigation as well as legislation, every single tool
that's available to me is critical in defending our
democracy and protecting workingpeople.
And so when you ask the questionof how effective we can be,
(06:39):
every single lawsuit that this president has waged against my
administration, we've defeated. And every lawsuit that we have
put forward, we have prevailed. This is not the way in which, of
course I would prefer to spend my time as mayor, having to
defend our city to protect our democracy and the humanity for
(06:59):
people across this country. But the people of the city, they
entrusted me to do both, to dealwith the structural damage that
I inherited and many challenges that cities face across this
country, whether it's education,safety and transportation
infrastructure, all at the same time defending our values and
standing up to the tyranny that's coming from the federal
(07:21):
government. You and other mayors have signed
an order prohibiting the use of city properties for federal
immigration efforts. What practically does that mean
if ICE ignores that order? Yeah.
You know, look, I put forth an executive order surrounded
surrounding this idea of ensuring that we can protect all
(07:44):
of Chicago. And so we've characterized them
as ice free zones, essentially. And so the federal government
cannot set up shop in public space to carry out their terror,
essentially. And as to your point, other
cities have embraced that as well.
You know, in terms of its effectiveness.
This is why the courts are so critical in this moment.
Look, my job, as you know, the chief executive is to enforce
(08:08):
the law. The Constitution is designed to
help us interpret the law. And so that's why this lawsuit
was so critical because we need to protect the people of this
city and really residents acrossthis country against federal
overreach. And so whether that's, you know,
protecting sensitive zones, whether it's, you know, schools
or hospitals or churches. But also the lawsuit also
(08:30):
highlights the fact that, you know, the the federal
government, ICE agents and Border Patrol, they have
indiscriminately released tear gas on people, right?
We have to have some measures ofaccountability.
They have targeted individuals that have accents, right?
They've arrested United States citizens, right?
So, so this lawsuit is so critical in this moment because
(08:52):
the federal overreach that we are experiencing right now is
really detrimental to to workingpeople.
If ICE sets up on city property,would police stop them?
How far are you willing to go? We have to use every tool that's
available to us that's necessaryin order to protect, you know,
(09:13):
people. And so if they are in violation,
you know, we will use the courtsas a means to hold people
accountable. That's very slow though.
It could be, but what we have seen, at least in this iteration
of our government, faster turn around on rulings that have
tremendous consequences on the future of our democracy.
Look, these are some really unprecedented times, right?
(09:37):
I remember a time as a former social studies teacher teaching
middle school right here in our public schools in Chicago, where
you had presidents that declaredwar on poverty.
You know, Doctor King made it a part of a national movement,
right? And now you have a president who
has declared war on poor people and working people.
That's why standing up in this moment is so critical.
(09:58):
Now, look, it's going to take more than just executive
authority, though. I'm using that as a means to
protect Chicago and to use it asan example for the rest of the
country. But people have to rise up in
this moment. We have to provide real check
and balance, especially as it relates to our Congress that has
essentially stood still and watched this president trample
all over the rights of, of our of our, of our people.
(10:21):
And so, yes, of course, you know, I'm going to use every
tool available to me. And yes, you know, time is of
the essence, but it doesn't deter me from using every single
tool that I have access to to protect the people of this city.
Is one of those tools the policeif base sets up on city property
which you have forbade them fromdoing?
Well, look, our local law enforcement has a critical role
(10:43):
in protecting our our our residents as far as what their
powers look like as relates to the federal government.
I will tell you this that it's not just me here in Chicago.
There are municipalities around this country that are exploring
and looking into what else can we do to ensure that we protect
working people, but that we alsohold the federal government
(11:05):
accountable and particularly this administration.
Talked to the chief of the Chicago Police Department about
the role the police would play in terms of protecting Chicago
citizens, Chicago residents fromICE.
Yeah. Well, the first thing that they
do is as a welcoming city, our local law enforcement does not
participate in civil immigrationenforcement, right?
We know from evidence that that actually makes us less safe.
(11:27):
But then what happens if ICE comes and sets up on city
property? What are you going to do to
defend that? Well, again, the first thing is
we have this executive order, wehave this lawsuit.
That's what we have to use. We have to use the means that
are in front of us. And again as far as you know,
but when the. Rubber hits the road.
What's what? What gives?
Well, I think what gives in this?
Way for the wheels of justice that grind slowly to defend
(11:50):
Chicago citizens? Or, or do the police step in at
that point? Well, look, as I said before,
our local law enforcement has responsibility to make sure that
they are enforcing the welcomingcity ordinance.
That's the first line of defense.
If the federal government extends or attempts to extend
its authority beyond the measures that we have put in
(12:11):
place here, we're going to use every single tool that's
available to us. Here's the part that I want
people to know that's most important.
We have a federal government that is working outside the
bounds of the Constitution. We have to use all of the means
that are available to us. That's and it's necessary to use
all the means that are availableto us to hold this president
accountable, because right now you don't see that.
(12:33):
And that's why I put forth multiple executive orders to
protect protests, to protect, you know, our welcoming city
ordinance to protect families who are losing their SNAP
benefits. You know, it's it's a time in
which I believe mayors across this country have to take a
deeper look into executive authority to protect residents.
There's a role for law enforcement, right?
(12:54):
There's a role for executives like myself as mayors.
There's a role for the courts. All of us have to work in tandem
to hold this administration accountable because it's
paramount as we think about the interests of working people and
how every single day this president continues to fail us.
People are going without food, they're hungry.
People are losing their health benefits, right?
People are losing access to to high quality education.
(13:17):
And that's why it's incumbent upon all of us to do everything
in our power to not just protectour democracy, but protect
humanity. Have you spoken to the police
chief about how you'll use the police to protect Chicago
citizens from ICE? Well, here's one way in which
we've already demonstrated how we've protected.
No, but I'm just curious if you have spoken to the.
Police chief. I talk to my Superintendent
every single day. And it's not just about, you
(13:38):
know, protecting residents against ICE.
It's about driving violence downin the city of Chicago.
That's why this welcoming city ordinance is so important.
Where we have seen federal agents show up, we've actually
seen less decline in violence because of their presence.
We've had more violence because of the presence of ICE.
And so when we talk about, you know, local law enforcement, I
(13:59):
want to make sure that I'm absolutely clear about this
because of the welcoming city ordinance that's means for
protection against the federal government, essentially, right?
Because we're not having our lawenforcement engage in civil
immigration enforcement because that makes people uneasy.
People are less willing to participate to help drive
(14:20):
violence down. We just had the fewest amount of
homicides in 60 years in our city.
We're driving violence down. And so the way in which we are
holding this administration accountable is using every
single tool that's available to me.
And that's not just through executive orders, but that is a
way in which we've done it. But it's also through
litigation. The way our local law
(14:41):
enforcement shows up for the people of the city every single
day by adhering to the welcomingcity ordinance, that is a form
of protection. You don't have the safest summer
in 60 years without law enforcement playing its part.
Now, it's not the only role. And I don't want people to get
too distracted. We have to use every single tool
that's available to us to ensurethat we keep people safe and
(15:02):
that we protect the people of this city against.
As the country is watching the chaos unfold just a few 100
miles northwest of your city of Chicago in Minneapolis and Saint
Paul, ICE shootings, federal raids, protests, talk of the
Insurrection Act being deployed against the city.
What is your concrete plan to prevent Chicago from becoming
(15:25):
the next Flashpoint? Yeah, well, first of all, I, I
spoke with Mayor Frey and, you know, reached out to the
attorney general as well, got a message to the governor to
express our solidarity with the people of the entire state of
Minnesota and really, you know, residents across this country.
I'm in regular conversations with mayors.
(15:46):
At the end of this month, I'll be in DC for the US Conference
of Mayors, where these issues will continue to come up.
You know, the way we, you know, protect Chicago and the way I
believe we protect this country,country again, is by using every
single tool that's available to us.
When I talk about this executiveorder to make sure that
protesters are protected that that the reason why we did it
(16:09):
because we know that this president is looking to
provocate, you know, active participants of our government,
which they have the fundamental right to be able to protest this
government when it gets out of control by having clear measures
and parameters around how protesters and their First
Amendment is protected. That's one way in which we
(16:30):
secure peacefully assembly to again to petition the
government. The second thing is, is to make
sure that people know their rights.
You know, this time last year, of course, the country was
preparing for for for another Trump administration.
And I believe that it was predictable that this type of
(16:52):
chaos would ensue. And one of the things that I
think is important that we have to continue to do this is to
make sure, again, that residentsknow their rights when the
president begin to move on his agenda.
Around this time last year, it was Tom Holman that said that he
had to leave Chicago because theresidents were too educated.
(17:15):
Now, I don't know about you, butI don't believe anyone can ever
be too educated around their rights, especially as it relates
to ensuring that our democracy is intact.
And so knowing their rights is paramount to ensuring that we do
not have ruckus. I think the third and the final
thing is what's our central point here?
(17:36):
Our central point is to make sure that working people are
protected. And as long as we are centering
our work around everyday people in Chicago and around the
country, that's another way in which we can ensure that our
cities remain peaceful. Now, look, this president is
determined to provoke chaos. You know, when we think about
(17:58):
the last contribution of Reverend Doctor Martin Luther
King Junior community or chaos, now we're focusing on community.
And that's why I'm saying that that central point is so
valuable. Even in the midst of chaos, if
we can focus our energy around the needs of everyday people,
that becomes our focus. That remains our focus.
(18:19):
And I believe that it has a better chance of preventing the
type of chaos that this president is determined to
unleash. You just said, Mr. Mayor, that
we were preparing a year ago forTrump's second administration
and that we could anticipate what was going to happen.
So I've noticed that some of thecritics on your left have said
that the city was inadequately prepared for the chaos of the
(18:39):
Trump administration has reached.
Older woman Jeanette Taylor saidthat in anticipation of
President Trump, Quote, we should have had a plan for what
was going to happen on every level of government so that in
schools and park districts, ICE is not able to come in and do
some of the as they are doing. Is she right?
(19:00):
Well, look, the president's, youknow, overreach of the
Constitution is something that Ido believe that people were
conscious about. And you know, as far as.
Prepared. Well, I mean, I think it's
evident and clear that our fightback has demonstrated that we
(19:21):
have been effective. You've been effective in the
courts. We have been our executive
orders. I mean, look, it's no secret
that this president wanted to send troops into our city.
He wasn't able to do that right now.
Could we prepare for everything that is coming from this
administration? I don't think anybody cans in
(19:41):
fact, his own administration can't prepare for the things
that he is, you know, trying to implement.
So this this assertion or assumption that you can over
prepare for evil, I think that that's a a bit unreasonable.
What I'm simply saying is, though we knew that this
president was clear about his agenda, that he was going to
(20:02):
focus his interests around the ultra wealthy, the big
corporations, and then ensue chaos.
And we've done. I believe a strong job at
bringing people together and defending the values of this
city. You and President Trump have a
contentious relationship to, to put it lightly.
Put it lightly. He said that you and Governor
Pritzker should, quote, be in jail for failing to protect ICE
(20:25):
officers. President Trump threatened to
cut off federal funding for schools and sanctuary cities
like Chicago, which you called terrorism.
So Donnie, the new mayor in New York City, as you know, had
similarly harsh language for President Trump and vice versa.
And yet they met in the office, hugged it out, so to speak.
(20:47):
You know, do you and the president just need to hash it
out together? You know, look, the president
has done more harm to the peopleof this country than he has done
anything to me personally, right?
As far as a conversation with the president, I'm always open
and available to talk to anyone who's committed to ensuring that
(21:07):
the city of Chicago continues its direction.
Would you like the safest, most affordable big city in America?
Would you like to go to the white?
House and talk. I believe he should come to
Chicago. I think you'll have a better
time. So even though Ramanani had to
go to the white. House, I mean, look, I'm to go
to the to the White House. I mean, look, I know it's under
construction. I don't know if phones even work
there in his office, but I'm happy if you know if he wants to
(21:29):
get a message to me to to sit down and have a conversation.
What would you talk to him about?
Building the safest, most affordable big city in America.
I mean, he needs to be able to see the success of of Chicago,
but what he really needs to pay attention to, he needs to pay
attention to what mayors are dealing with all over this
country. That's the part that he's he's,
he's missing Like mayors is where the rubber meets the road,
(21:52):
right? People are concerned about their
schools, they're concerned aboutthe the infrastructure, right?
They're concerned about public transportation, they're
concerned about affordability and housing.
That's why I'm on pace to build 10,000 affordable homes by the
end of my first term. Again, we had the fewest amount
of homicides in 60 years. That's what I would talk to him
(22:12):
about, investing in people. That's how you build safe and
affordable communities. This agenda that he's on is so
far removed from what everyday people want in this country that
my message to him would be the message that any mayor would
deliver to him. Focus on the needs of people and
not on the needs of these big corporations in the ultra
(22:34):
wealthy. And if he can refocus his
attention to the needs of everyday people, I believe it
could set this country up for for just a stronger
representation of the values that I believe that really
define who we are as a nation. The progressive left in this
country has been animated by therise of Zoram Amdani and his
(22:55):
ascension to the mayoralty in New York and and the last sort
of great candidacy that they were excited about and
galvanized by was yours. What can Mayor Mom Donnie learn
from your experience in Chicago?Well, first of all, you know, I,
I extend my congratulations to, to, to Mayor Mom Don.
(23:17):
Have you spoken to him since he's become mayor?
We have not had a chance to talk.
I understand what those first few weeks and couple of months
look like. And so he's got enough to deal
with right now, but I'm hoping that we'll be able to connect,
of course, in the very near future.
You know, I believe that he's already off to a, to a good
start. I mean, one of the things that's
so critical in this moment is tomake sure that he remains
(23:39):
connected to the people. And you know, I believe that he
instituted an office around community engagement that's so
critical because it's the community that's that that's
ultimately going to help drive the agenda that he ran on.
And the more engagement that he can do with everyday people, it
sets his administration up to befar more effective because what
(24:02):
opposition likes to do is isolate individuals right where
they make it about a single person.
And that that's that's. What happened here?
Oh, absolutely, right. I mean, well, well, just because
as mayor of Chicago, you, you take on the full responsibility
for everything, whether it's your responsibility or not.
(24:22):
People look to the mayor's office to be able to handle and
deal with every single circumstance.
It's not an unreasonable expectation.
The challenge is it requires engagement in a way that ensures
that City Council is supportive in a way that it that ensures
that the General Assembly, the state legislature is, is is
(24:43):
accountable to to the work as well.
So for instance, you know, I believe that we have to have
real progressive revenue in order to protect working people.
There are revenue ideas that require the state legislature to
put to put forth an effort to see to it that it gets
accomplished. The same thing is going to apply
to not just Mayor Mamdani, but mayors across this country.
(25:06):
We have limited levers that we can pull as local executives to
generate revenue. A lot of it requires the state
legislature to engage. And so it's that type of
activity that I believe that he stays, if he stays that course
that that agenda that he ran on,he could see to it that the
people ensure that it becomes a reality.
(25:29):
Let's talk about the budget herein Chicago since you sort of
alluded to it, right? You sort of alluded to it.
I mean, look, last month, you know, it has been widely
reported the City Council for the first time in action to
budget without the mayor support.
You called the document morally bankrupt.
And look, the you ran on a platform of addressing the
(25:52):
city's structural deficits. You suggested when you ran that
you would run on this platform of of $800 million in new taxes.
There have been a couple of efforts you have made to
increase revenue that have fallen short both at the City
Council and by the voters. In September, you declared
(26:14):
quote, we don't have a spending problem, we have a revenue
problem. Do you still believe that and
what is your plan? Yeah, well, we, I still believe
it. We have a revenue challenge.
And it's not just the city of Chicago, right?
These are budgets across America, right?
The state of Illinois had a $3 billion budget deficit that they
(26:35):
had to close. I won't name any other states.
I'll just focus on my city and in the state that I that I'm in.
But this is a challenge across America, right?
And This is why the Trump administration is is so damning
and so threatening to working people.
And so This is why, you know, I put forth a a couple of efforts,
right to to generate a more progressive revenue.
(26:57):
Look, just because those two measures, and I'm happy to dig
into those two measures were didnot end up the way I wanted it
to end up, it doesn't mean that the fight for progressive
revenue is 1 wrong or two over right.
I mean. If you can't get it through the
City Council, you couldn't get it through the the voters, what
is your next option? To continue to to take the case
(27:20):
to the people of this city, to take the case to the people of
the state of Illinois, and of course, to continue to take it
to City Council. Look again, you don't give up on
something because it didn't workout for us.
The fact of the matter is, whether it was civil rights or
women's rights or any other right that we were able to
secure, you may not be able to do that in the first round.
That doesn't give you an excuse to just stand idly by and just
(27:40):
total your thumb. And so, so, so this is what
we've done. We've called on the state of
Illinois to put forth a millionaire's tax.
We've heard from the speaker of the House that he's very much
interested in a millionaire's tax, right?
So we're getting some movement there.
But we also instituted what is called the smart tax, the social
media amusement responsibility tax.
It's a tax on big corporations, these big tech companies who
(28:03):
have more than 100,000 users. And that tax and that revenue is
going to go right to building and supporting our mental and
behavioral health operation here, of which we've expanded
since I've been mayor. So there are examples of our
ability to be able to move on progressive revenue, but we did,
of course, get some, some pushback from one particular
(28:24):
corporate corporate tax that I believe was the right direction.
Because this budget that ultimately passed the, the the
City Council decided instead of instead of challenging big
corporations to put more skin inthe game, they decided to sell
off debt to debt collectors to go after working people and poor
people. That is immoral.
(28:45):
There was a better pathway to dothat.
And, and furthermore, the budgetthat they ultimately went with,
there's some significant over projections of their revenue, of
which their revenue projections,which I'm already bracing the
city of Chicago for potential cuts and layoffs because of the
irresponsibility of these members of City Council.
And so look, there's no secret here that the corporate interest
(29:09):
put a lot of money into pushing back against essentially what
was 1.6% of the overall budget. 98% plus of what's in that
budget is what I proposed. The big difference was you could
balance it off the backs of working people or poor people,
or you can challenge big corporations to pay their fair
share in taxes. In this instance, there are
(29:30):
members of the City Council thatwas more interested in
protecting corporate interests than protecting the interests of
every one of. These measures went down 50 to
0. I mean, every single member of
the City Council voted against one of the measures to raise
revenue. And So what I guess my question
is, Mayor, is this. There's just no Ave. for
adjusting spending in any way. And I know that last year you
(29:50):
commissioned a task force to identify savings and
efficiencies in the city budget.They produced an interim report
that laid out nearly 100 recommendations that could save
a billion dollars a year, but according to the Civic
Federation of your proposed budget, adopted only a handful
of those recommendations. Yeah, that's a.
That's a misrepresentation of what they're saying.
We actually implemented over half just.
(30:10):
Maybe then forget that, like maybe just take the question of
spent of, of spending. Like, are you saying there's
it's this, this fiscal crisis that the city faces can only be
addressed with revenue and that there isn't work to do on the
spending front? Well, revenue is important, but
if you look at that same report that I actually implemented, I
(30:32):
put forth this report to do exactly what we did, which we
saved the taxpayers over $200 million, $600 million in the
long run based upon the implementation of those
recommendations that I put forward, right?
So we are doing both. And but if, if we're going to
continue to build more affordable homes because that's
(30:52):
what people want, if we're goingto continue to drive violence
down in the city of Chicago because that's what people want,
we have to invest in people. So it's both and it is
progressive revenue, but it's also finding ways in which we
can streamline, streamline government so that we are being
far more effective in our delivery of of services.
But people don't want cuts to services, right?
(31:13):
People want more into our education system, which is fair.
And so yes, we have implemented over half of the recommendations
from this particular report thatI commissioned where we are
saving just in the immediate, you know, over, you know, $200
million and $600 million in the long run.
You mentioned affordable housing.
In 2023, Chicago spent $747,000 per unit to build affordable
(31:36):
housing. The next largest city in the
country? Houston spends less than half of
that per unit. So you talk about affordable
housing, but the high cost is partly due to, you know, a long
list of requirements that the city has, like energy
efficiency, diversity, cabinet space.
What can you do to make it cheaper?
Well, one of the things that I've done, we put forth this
(31:58):
effort, it's called the Cut the Tape initiative, right?
And this is you know an initiative that I put forth to
actually drive cost to do development in the city of
Chicago down. And so we are moving in that
direction and as a result of that so.
Do you mean red tape? Yeah, kind of like the abundance
agenda idea. No.
Well, yeah, absolutely. Because of the bureaucracy that
that the city of Chicago has long held, it's made it very
(32:21):
difficult, darn near impossible to do business with the city of
Chicago. The city of Chicago is open for
business. We're just no longer for sale,
but this initiative does allow for that process to be
streamlined so that we can actually cut the cost to build
more affordable homes. Chicago's pension debt has
grown. We were talking about the budget
deficit, but like a lot of the reason for the budget deficit,
(32:41):
by the way, it's not not nothingyou made all by yourself.
It certainly predates you, but you are you are the mayor now.
And so you know the pension debthas grown beyond $37.2 billion.
It is the The pension debt is larger in Chicago than it is in
44 states. As you all know, last fall, you
(33:02):
even had to dip into the city's cash reserves to cover FIRE
pension payments. Pension payments now consume
over 23% of the city's budget. It's more than triple their
share a decade ago. The Wall Street Journal said
Chicago doesn't need higher taxes to drive away more
taxpayers. It needs a mayor who isn't a
(33:23):
wholly owned public union subsidiary.
Your response? Well, what's what's ironic about
that assertion is that the individuals that were in this
position before me were owned bycorporations.
That drove us into the problem in the 1st place, right?
So, you know, this idea that a working class man cannot, you
(33:45):
know, see through this moment and find responsible ways to
address an issue that corporations actually failed is
disingenuous at at at the very least.
So what we have done, of course,we continue to pay even into our
advance. It's why progressive revenue is
so critical so that it frees up resources to address all the
(34:06):
structural damage that I inherited.
Look, it's a both and approach. We have to invest in our future
while also ensuring that past mistakes are addressed.
That's why our fight with the federal government as well as
dealing with the structural challenges that we have in the
city of Chicago has, you know, demonstrated that it it that it
has its challenges. But clearly I'm up for it,
(34:27):
right? Because we've addressed many of
the structural challenges and wecontinue to address it, also
defending our city and our values against the federal
government. You mentioned you're you were a
social studies teacher. Chicago's public school system
is also nearly $10 billion in debt.
But enrollment is really far down from pre COVID levels.
(34:48):
There is. Last year, two and five Chicago
teachers were chronically absent, according to one report
by the Illinois Policy Institute.
After taking office, even the New York Times described you as
quote, almost unequivocally adopting the teachers union
agenda. Is higher pay and more staff
(35:10):
what's needed in the Chicago Public Schools right now?
Investment, that's what's neededin our public schools and that's
what's needed in our public schools across America.
You know, look. But is only investing in
teachers union in teachers salaries the way to do that?
That's part of it. But you know what we've done
here in Chicago, We've invested in special education.
We've invested in reducing classsizes.
(35:31):
We've invested in what I believeis the model for the rest of
this country, Sustainable Community Schools, which
provides real local autonomy forindividual schools within
communities that have unique challenges.
And so we've expanded the sustainable Community Schools
model where a school is adopted by a local community
organization and then there are additional resources to address
(35:53):
the unique challenges. 70% of the people of this state say
that we need more funding for our public schools.
In fact, when you look at that across this country, people
overwhelmingly know that we haveto invest more in our public
schools. Let me just say this last part.
There is an agenda, particularlycoming from One Direction in
(36:14):
this country that wants to undermine public accommodations
by going after public unions, right?
This is the antithesis, of course, to what Doctor King and
other civil rights leaders fought for, where they, you
know, made it very clear the labor rights movement and the
civil rights movement were one and the same.
And if they were to ever collidewith enormous potential, it
would have. Those were the words of Doctor
(36:35):
King at an ASME convention in 1967.
And so these individuals who believe that not paying
educators, not investing in a special education, not lowering
class sizes, I can tell you something.
They've never stepped foot in a classroom.
I have. I'm the first mayor in the
history of this city to actuallysend my children to the public
schools. I believe in them that much that
(36:56):
I'm willing to send my kids there.
I'm the beneficiary of public education.
I've taught in our public schools.
And so I'm not going to accept this frame that's coming from
extremism in this country that somehow paying educators, who by
the way, are overwhelmingly women, paying them a fair wage,
is somehow a problem. It's not investing in our
educators, investing in our families, that's the best thing
(37:18):
that we can do to protect and secure our democracy.
The math just isn't mapping, right?
What do you say about the numbers?
I mean, if it's $10 billion in debt, the math isn't, you know,
the math doesn't math. Well, here's the problem.
We've had previous administrations that have kicked
the can down the road, right where either they weren't paying
(37:38):
into the pension system, 80% of our property taxes are going
towards pensions. That's because you had mayors
who took the. Teachers who used to teach who
taught you? You're still thinking.
Teachers who taught you? That's exactly you're.
Not paying teachers that are teaching today.
Well, that's where that's where the rubber meets the road, where
I deal with the structural challenges that I inherited
(37:59):
while also moving us forward. Have we found ways to make
government permit more streamline?
Absolutely. Do we continue to invest in our
children's future? Absolutely.
They both can exist. Previous administrations didn't
do that. They chose corporations and
privatization overwhelmingly at the expense of everyday people.
We're doing it differently here in Chicago.
(38:21):
Last point, we released a half abillion dollars into our public
schools, the largest investment in the history of Chicago, to
ensure class sizes can be managed, to make sure that there
are social workers and counselors, psychiatrists in our
school buildings. Our children need investment.
That's the best way to secure safe and affordable communities
by investing in them. I'm going to play you a clip,
(38:42):
Mr. Mayor, of the original Firing Line, where one of the
guests on William F Buckley Junior's program talked to him
about things that were happeningin your city several decades
ago. Take a look.
You're clubbed, you're maced, you're gassed, you're freaked,
zapped, pushed over. If you're a peaceful, long
haired, loving protester, you'resmashed and knocked down.
If you're a cameraman, you're bricked and your camera's
(39:04):
destroyed and your your blood issplattered all over you.
I mean, it's, it's a nefarious scene as, as you probably
guessed, that's 1968 Chicago. And it was a young activist who
was talking about violence unleashed in Chicago by then
Mayor Daley during the Democratic National Convention.
Today, violence is being unleashed again against
(39:26):
protesters in American cities, most recently Minneapolis.
But we've discussed Los Angeles,Portland, Chicago.
Are there lessons from Chicago in 1968 that are useful in those
situations today? Well, we're certainly a much
different city than we were in 1968.
The complexion of leadership in this city is much different.
(39:48):
The experience of leadership is much different.
You know, what I can tell you isthat I'm confident that when we
get to the other side of this moment, we'll be a better and a
stronger city. We'll be a better and a stronger
people. But it's really going to take
all of us to continue to. Understand shoulder to shoulder.
(40:08):
I mean, the city of Chicago, we are known as the city with big
broad shoulders. It's the city where, you know,
electricity came to life. It's the city where the skyscape
scrapers became a part of the makeup of of infrastructure.
But it's also the city that thatbirth the first black president
of the United States. It's history.
(40:29):
It's the city city of the labor movement, right?
And so I'm confident that that history, as ugly as that year
was that there's so much more tocenter our guiding principles
around then the tyranny that's coming.
So we're going to stand on the hopes and dreams of our
ancestors, whether you are an immigrant from around the world
(40:51):
or you came up during the Great Migration like my family did
from the South, that the city ofChicago is the global capital of
the world. And the people of this world
will come to know that we are truly the greatest city in the
world. Your term ends next spring.
You haven't said yet whether you're going to run again.
Some of the most recent polls have your approval rating around
30%. And since 1976, most Chicago
(41:12):
mayors besides Daily have only served one term.
Why is this job a hard one to keep?
Well, look, you know, Chicago is, first of all, it's a
beautiful city. It's a tough city, right?
And people have Great Expectations from their leaders.
The people of this city elected me to build a safe and an
(41:32):
affordable city. And we're doing that.
Violent crime is down. We're building more affordable
homes. Our airports and particularly
O'Hare has set and broken records. 6 cranes in the air, 18
already confirmed the 19 O1 project on the West side of
Chicago, the side quantum on thesoutheast side of Chicago in a
neighborhood that have not had investment in over 30 years.
(41:55):
And so we are made it very clearthat we're going to focus on the
communities, we're going to build safe and affordable
communities. And that's what my focus is
going to remain. And, you know, we'll let the
politics continue to, to, to work itself out.
Every year, Chicago's Departmentof Sanitation holds a contest to
name its new snow plows. This year, you have backed the
(42:15):
name Abolish Ice. Can we infer from that that you
agree with some of the Democratswho actually have called for
abolishing ICE? Well, it's evident that there
are people across this country that are finally catching up to
where we've always been as a city.
Look, the ICE agents and the federal government in this
moment have acted irresponsibly.In fact, the ICE budget is only
(42:39):
second and third to the United States military and China's
military. Are you for abolishing all ICE?
And I'm saying that that the name of that particular piece of
fleet certainly reflect, I believe, the values of this
city. And so do you stand by
abolishing I. Fully endorse the name of this
particular fleet. Fleet calling for the abolishing
(43:01):
of ICE. So no, no final answer on
whether we should get rid of theimmigrations and.
Customs support, I mean, the useof of ICE has been quite abusive
and it's demonstrated how terrorizing that it could be.
And any form of government that harms people, we should question
whether or not it should exist. Mayor Brandon Johnson, thank you
(43:23):
for joining me on Firing LINE. You're welcome.
Thanks for having. Me.
This president is determined to provoke chaos.
You know, when we think about the last contribution of
Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior community or chaos,
even in the midst of chaos, if we can focus our energy around
the needs of everyday people, I believe that it has a better
chance of preventing the type ofchaos that this president is
determined to unleash. Chicago's Mayor Brandon Johnson
(00:27):
discussing the challenges big city mayors are facing in Donald
Trump's second term. I'm Margaret Hoover.
This is the FIRING Line podcast.When progressive Brandon Johnson
took office in 2023, the former social studies teacher faced a
wide range of challenges. The people of this city elected
(00:49):
me to build a safe and an affordable city, and we're doing
that. Including a school system
plagued by debt, absenteeism andunder enrollment.
I'm the first mayor in the history of this city to actually
send my children to the public schools.
I believe in them that much thatI'm willing to send my kids
there. Pension payments that eat up
nearly 1/4 of the city's budget.Look, it's a both and approach.
(01:09):
We have to invest in our future while also ensuring that past
mistakes are addressed. And a City Council with its own
agenda. There are members of the City
Council more interested in protecting corporate interests
than protecting the interests ofeveryday people.
And all of that was before President Trump unleashed ICE.
We have a mayor there who's totally incompetent.
He's an incompetent man. But despite a string of
(01:31):
political setbacks, Johnson remains defiant.
The fact of the matter is, whether it was civil rights or
women's rights or any other right that we were able to
secure, you may not be able to do that in the first round.
That doesn't give you an excuse to just stand idly by and just
twiddle your thumbs. Mayor Brandon Johnson, welcome
(01:51):
to Firing LINE. Hey, thanks for having me and
happy New Year. Happy New Year, Thank you for
welcoming me to your city here here in Chicago.
This week marks the 40th federalobservation of Martin Luther
King Junior Day. President Trump has claimed
recently that the civil rights movement has led to white people
(02:13):
being, quote, very badly treatedas Chicago's fourth black mayor.
How do you think about King's legacy in this country one year
into Donald Trump's second term as president?
Yeah, well, look, first of all, you know, Reverend Doctor Martin
(02:33):
Luther King Junior, arguably thebest, you know, human being to
walk the planet and, you know, he has a special place.
More than Jesus, I know you havethe son of son of pastors.
Yes, I am, you know, well, I said human being, you know, he
didn't take on the form of God, but he certainly embodied, you
know, the spirit, right. And Doctor King has a real
(02:54):
special place for us here in Chicago.
You know, he came to the city ofChicago fighting for fair
housing and public accommodations as a whole as
that Southern strategy to bring equity and justice to the
Southern states. He understood that we needed to
capture the North as well as a refuge for for all of humanity.
(03:16):
And you know, he said that if wecan do it right in Chicago, and
I'm paraphrasing, we can do it anywhere in the world.
And, you know, as I think about his legacy and as we ensure that
the city of Chicago becomes the safest, most affordable big city
in America, I am living out, youknow, the, the testimony and the
hopes and aspirations of of Doctor King as we build more
(03:39):
affordable homes, as we invest in young people, invest in our
public education system. It's quite upsetting, of course,
as you can imagine, for the for the president of the United
States of America to make such an assertion.
So, first of all, he's wrong. And I believe that our country
is better because we have civil rights.
And as long as we continue to fight for the civil rights of
(04:00):
every single individual, we can finally, you know, live out the
true aspirations of these UnitedStates.
Have white people been very badly treated because of the
civil rights movement? Not at all.
Not in the least bit, right? To suggest that somehow the
liberation of a particular groupis somehow going to be
detrimental to another. That's just not the case here.
(04:21):
And, you know, again, for the president to make that type of
claim, it shows you how disconnected he is from reality.
But we're familiar, you know, with his abnormality and his
behavior. But we're going to remain
focused to continue to bend thatarc of justice towards the hopes
and aspirations of, of of this nation, whether you're black,
brown, white, Asian, young or old, that you get to live out
(04:45):
the full creed of what this country has been moving towards
as we fight for civil rights foreveryone.
In the wake of the recent ICE shootings and killings in this
city and in Minneapolis, last week, the city of Chicago and
the state of Illinois filed A lawsuit against the federal
government alleging that the Trump administration's
(05:09):
immigration crackdown has violated the United States
Constitution. The lawsuit alleges that ICE
agents have acted as occupiers rather than officers.
It charges Border Patrol and ICEagents with arresting people
without warrants, using chemicalweapons against law abiding
citizens, and rampaging through Chicago lawlessly stopping and
(05:31):
arresting residents. How effective can a mayor be
when standing up against the federal government?
Well, the first I, I can tell you, it's not something that I,
you know, could have imagined when I took on this
responsibility that we would have to as mayors, that we would
have to fend off the federal government from constitutional
(05:56):
overreach. You know, when the president was
attempting to send federal troops, the National Guard, from
other states to the city of Chicago, we effectively filed a
lawsuit and the United States Supreme Court agreed with our
claim. Rules in your favor.
Exactly. And so I believe what has what's
(06:17):
increasingly clear is that as executives, as mayors, and
particularly as I lead this cityusing executive authority,
including litigation as well as legislation, every single tool
that's available to me is critical in defending our
democracy and protecting workingpeople.
And so when you ask the questionof how effective we can be,
(06:39):
every single lawsuit that this president has waged against my
administration, we've defeated. And every lawsuit that we have
put forward, we have prevailed. This is not the way in which, of
course I would prefer to spend my time as mayor, having to
defend our city to protect our democracy and the humanity for
(06:59):
people across this country. But the people of the city, they
entrusted me to do both, to dealwith the structural damage that
I inherited and many challenges that cities face across this
country, whether it's education,safety and transportation
infrastructure, all at the same time defending our values and
standing up to the tyranny that's coming from the federal
(07:21):
government. You and other mayors have signed
an order prohibiting the use of city properties for federal
immigration efforts. What practically does that mean
if ICE ignores that order? Yeah.
You know, look, I put forth an executive order surrounded
surrounding this idea of ensuring that we can protect all
(07:44):
of Chicago. And so we've characterized them
as ice free zones, essentially. And so the federal government
cannot set up shop in public space to carry out their terror,
essentially. And as to your point, other
cities have embraced that as well.
You know, in terms of its effectiveness.
This is why the courts are so critical in this moment.
Look, my job, as you know, the chief executive is to enforce
(08:08):
the law. The Constitution is designed to
help us interpret the law. And so that's why this lawsuit
was so critical because we need to protect the people of this
city and really residents acrossthis country against federal
overreach. And so whether that's, you know,
protecting sensitive zones, whether it's, you know, schools
or hospitals or churches. But also the lawsuit also
(08:30):
highlights the fact that, you know, the the federal
government, ICE agents and Border Patrol, they have
indiscriminately released tear gas on people, right?
We have to have some measures ofaccountability.
They have targeted individuals that have accents, right?
They've arrested United States citizens, right?
So, so this lawsuit is so critical in this moment because
(08:52):
the federal overreach that we are experiencing right now is
really detrimental to to workingpeople.
If ICE sets up on city property,would police stop them?
How far are you willing to go? We have to use every tool that's
available to us that's necessaryin order to protect, you know,
(09:13):
people. And so if they are in violation,
you know, we will use the courtsas a means to hold people
accountable. That's very slow though.
It could be, but what we have seen, at least in this iteration
of our government, faster turn around on rulings that have
tremendous consequences on the future of our democracy.
Look, these are some really unprecedented times, right?
(09:37):
I remember a time as a former social studies teacher teaching
middle school right here in our public schools in Chicago, where
you had presidents that declaredwar on poverty.
You know, Doctor King made it a part of a national movement,
right? And now you have a president who
has declared war on poor people and working people.
That's why standing up in this moment is so critical.
(09:58):
Now, look, it's going to take more than just executive
authority, though. I'm using that as a means to
protect Chicago and to use it asan example for the rest of the
country. But people have to rise up in
this moment. We have to provide real check
and balance, especially as it relates to our Congress that has
essentially stood still and watched this president trample
all over the rights of, of our of our, of our people.
(10:21):
And so, yes, of course, you know, I'm going to use every
tool available to me. And yes, you know, time is of
the essence, but it doesn't deter me from using every single
tool that I have access to to protect the people of this city.
Is one of those tools the policeif base sets up on city property
which you have forbade them fromdoing?
Well, look, our local law enforcement has a critical role
(10:43):
in protecting our our our residents as far as what their
powers look like as relates to the federal government.
I will tell you this that it's not just me here in Chicago.
There are municipalities around this country that are exploring
and looking into what else can we do to ensure that we protect
working people, but that we alsohold the federal government
(11:05):
accountable and particularly this administration.
Talked to the chief of the Chicago Police Department about
the role the police would play in terms of protecting Chicago
citizens, Chicago residents fromICE.
Yeah. Well, the first thing that they
do is as a welcoming city, our local law enforcement does not
participate in civil immigrationenforcement, right?
We know from evidence that that actually makes us less safe.
(11:27):
But then what happens if ICE comes and sets up on city
property? What are you going to do to
defend that? Well, again, the first thing is
we have this executive order, wehave this lawsuit.
That's what we have to use. We have to use the means that
are in front of us. And again as far as you know,
but when the. Rubber hits the road.
What's what? What gives?
Well, I think what gives in this?
Way for the wheels of justice that grind slowly to defend
(11:50):
Chicago citizens? Or, or do the police step in at
that point? Well, look, as I said before,
our local law enforcement has responsibility to make sure that
they are enforcing the welcomingcity ordinance.
That's the first line of defense.
If the federal government extends or attempts to extend
its authority beyond the measures that we have put in
(12:11):
place here, we're going to use every single tool that's
available to us. Here's the part that I want
people to know that's most important.
We have a federal government that is working outside the
bounds of the Constitution. We have to use all of the means
that are available to us. That's and it's necessary to use
all the means that are availableto us to hold this president
accountable, because right now you don't see that.
(12:33):
And that's why I put forth multiple executive orders to
protect protests, to protect, you know, our welcoming city
ordinance to protect families who are losing their SNAP
benefits. You know, it's it's a time in
which I believe mayors across this country have to take a
deeper look into executive authority to protect residents.
There's a role for law enforcement, right?
(12:54):
There's a role for executives like myself as mayors.
There's a role for the courts. All of us have to work in tandem
to hold this administration accountable because it's
paramount as we think about the interests of working people and
how every single day this president continues to fail us.
People are going without food, they're hungry.
People are losing their health benefits, right?
People are losing access to to high quality education.
(13:17):
And that's why it's incumbent upon all of us to do everything
in our power to not just protectour democracy, but protect
humanity. Have you spoken to the police
chief about how you'll use the police to protect Chicago
citizens from ICE? Well, here's one way in which
we've already demonstrated how we've protected.
No, but I'm just curious if you have spoken to the.
Police chief. I talk to my Superintendent
every single day. And it's not just about, you
(13:38):
know, protecting residents against ICE.
It's about driving violence downin the city of Chicago.
That's why this welcoming city ordinance is so important.
Where we have seen federal agents show up, we've actually
seen less decline in violence because of their presence.
We've had more violence because of the presence of ICE.
And so when we talk about, you know, local law enforcement, I
(13:59):
want to make sure that I'm absolutely clear about this
because of the welcoming city ordinance that's means for
protection against the federal government, essentially, right?
Because we're not having our lawenforcement engage in civil
immigration enforcement because that makes people uneasy.
People are less willing to participate to help drive
(14:20):
violence down. We just had the fewest amount of
homicides in 60 years in our city.
We're driving violence down. And so the way in which we are
holding this administration accountable is using every
single tool that's available to me.
And that's not just through executive orders, but that is a
way in which we've done it. But it's also through
litigation. The way our local law
(14:41):
enforcement shows up for the people of the city every single
day by adhering to the welcomingcity ordinance, that is a form
of protection. You don't have the safest summer
in 60 years without law enforcement playing its part.
Now, it's not the only role. And I don't want people to get
too distracted. We have to use every single tool
that's available to us to ensurethat we keep people safe and
(15:02):
that we protect the people of this city against.
As the country is watching the chaos unfold just a few 100
miles northwest of your city of Chicago in Minneapolis and Saint
Paul, ICE shootings, federal raids, protests, talk of the
Insurrection Act being deployed against the city.
What is your concrete plan to prevent Chicago from becoming
(15:25):
the next Flashpoint? Yeah, well, first of all, I, I
spoke with Mayor Frey and, you know, reached out to the
attorney general as well, got a message to the governor to
express our solidarity with the people of the entire state of
Minnesota and really, you know, residents across this country.
I'm in regular conversations with mayors.
(15:46):
At the end of this month, I'll be in DC for the US Conference
of Mayors, where these issues will continue to come up.
You know, the way we, you know, protect Chicago and the way I
believe we protect this country,country again, is by using every
single tool that's available to us.
When I talk about this executiveorder to make sure that
protesters are protected that that the reason why we did it
(16:09):
because we know that this president is looking to
provocate, you know, active participants of our government,
which they have the fundamental right to be able to protest this
government when it gets out of control by having clear measures
and parameters around how protesters and their First
Amendment is protected. That's one way in which we
(16:30):
secure peacefully assembly to again to petition the
government. The second thing is, is to make
sure that people know their rights.
You know, this time last year, of course, the country was
preparing for for for another Trump administration.
And I believe that it was predictable that this type of
(16:52):
chaos would ensue. And one of the things that I
think is important that we have to continue to do this is to
make sure, again, that residentsknow their rights when the
president begin to move on his agenda.
Around this time last year, it was Tom Holman that said that he
had to leave Chicago because theresidents were too educated.
(17:15):
Now, I don't know about you, butI don't believe anyone can ever
be too educated around their rights, especially as it relates
to ensuring that our democracy is intact.
And so knowing their rights is paramount to ensuring that we do
not have ruckus. I think the third and the final
thing is what's our central point here?
(17:36):
Our central point is to make sure that working people are
protected. And as long as we are centering
our work around everyday people in Chicago and around the
country, that's another way in which we can ensure that our
cities remain peaceful. Now, look, this president is
determined to provoke chaos. You know, when we think about
(17:58):
the last contribution of Reverend Doctor Martin Luther
King Junior community or chaos, now we're focusing on community.
And that's why I'm saying that that central point is so
valuable. Even in the midst of chaos, if
we can focus our energy around the needs of everyday people,
that becomes our focus. That remains our focus.
(18:19):
And I believe that it has a better chance of preventing the
type of chaos that this president is determined to
unleash. You just said, Mr. Mayor, that
we were preparing a year ago forTrump's second administration
and that we could anticipate what was going to happen.
So I've noticed that some of thecritics on your left have said
that the city was inadequately prepared for the chaos of the
(18:39):
Trump administration has reached.
Older woman Jeanette Taylor saidthat in anticipation of
President Trump, Quote, we should have had a plan for what
was going to happen on every level of government so that in
schools and park districts, ICE is not able to come in and do
some of the as they are doing. Is she right?
(19:00):
Well, look, the president's, youknow, overreach of the
Constitution is something that Ido believe that people were
conscious about. And you know, as far as.
Prepared. Well, I mean, I think it's
evident and clear that our fightback has demonstrated that we
(19:21):
have been effective. You've been effective in the
courts. We have been our executive
orders. I mean, look, it's no secret
that this president wanted to send troops into our city.
He wasn't able to do that right now.
Could we prepare for everything that is coming from this
administration? I don't think anybody cans in
(19:41):
fact, his own administration can't prepare for the things
that he is, you know, trying to implement.
So this this assertion or assumption that you can over
prepare for evil, I think that that's a a bit unreasonable.
What I'm simply saying is, though we knew that this
president was clear about his agenda, that he was going to
(20:02):
focus his interests around the ultra wealthy, the big
corporations, and then ensue chaos.
And we've done. I believe a strong job at
bringing people together and defending the values of this
city. You and President Trump have a
contentious relationship to, to put it lightly.
Put it lightly. He said that you and Governor
Pritzker should, quote, be in jail for failing to protect ICE
(20:25):
officers. President Trump threatened to
cut off federal funding for schools and sanctuary cities
like Chicago, which you called terrorism.
So Donnie, the new mayor in New York City, as you know, had
similarly harsh language for President Trump and vice versa.
And yet they met in the office, hugged it out, so to speak.
(20:47):
You know, do you and the president just need to hash it
out together? You know, look, the president
has done more harm to the peopleof this country than he has done
anything to me personally, right?
As far as a conversation with the president, I'm always open
and available to talk to anyone who's committed to ensuring that
(21:07):
the city of Chicago continues its direction.
Would you like the safest, most affordable big city in America?
Would you like to go to the white?
House and talk. I believe he should come to
Chicago. I think you'll have a better
time. So even though Ramanani had to
go to the white. House, I mean, look, I'm to go
to the to the White House. I mean, look, I know it's under
construction. I don't know if phones even work
there in his office, but I'm happy if you know if he wants to
(21:29):
get a message to me to to sit down and have a conversation.
What would you talk to him about?
Building the safest, most affordable big city in America.
I mean, he needs to be able to see the success of of Chicago,
but what he really needs to pay attention to, he needs to pay
attention to what mayors are dealing with all over this
country. That's the part that he's he's,
he's missing Like mayors is where the rubber meets the road,
(21:52):
right? People are concerned about their
schools, they're concerned aboutthe the infrastructure, right?
They're concerned about public transportation, they're
concerned about affordability and housing.
That's why I'm on pace to build 10,000 affordable homes by the
end of my first term. Again, we had the fewest amount
of homicides in 60 years. That's what I would talk to him
(22:12):
about, investing in people. That's how you build safe and
affordable communities. This agenda that he's on is so
far removed from what everyday people want in this country that
my message to him would be the message that any mayor would
deliver to him. Focus on the needs of people and
not on the needs of these big corporations in the ultra
(22:34):
wealthy. And if he can refocus his
attention to the needs of everyday people, I believe it
could set this country up for for just a stronger
representation of the values that I believe that really
define who we are as a nation. The progressive left in this
country has been animated by therise of Zoram Amdani and his
(22:55):
ascension to the mayoralty in New York and and the last sort
of great candidacy that they were excited about and
galvanized by was yours. What can Mayor Mom Donnie learn
from your experience in Chicago?Well, first of all, you know, I,
I extend my congratulations to, to, to Mayor Mom Don.
(23:17):
Have you spoken to him since he's become mayor?
We have not had a chance to talk.
I understand what those first few weeks and couple of months
look like. And so he's got enough to deal
with right now, but I'm hoping that we'll be able to connect,
of course, in the very near future.
You know, I believe that he's already off to a, to a good
start. I mean, one of the things that's
so critical in this moment is tomake sure that he remains
(23:39):
connected to the people. And you know, I believe that he
instituted an office around community engagement that's so
critical because it's the community that's that that's
ultimately going to help drive the agenda that he ran on.
And the more engagement that he can do with everyday people, it
sets his administration up to befar more effective because what
(24:02):
opposition likes to do is isolate individuals right where
they make it about a single person.
And that that's that's. What happened here?
Oh, absolutely, right. I mean, well, well, just because
as mayor of Chicago, you, you take on the full responsibility
for everything, whether it's your responsibility or not.
(24:22):
People look to the mayor's office to be able to handle and
deal with every single circumstance.
It's not an unreasonable expectation.
The challenge is it requires engagement in a way that ensures
that City Council is supportive in a way that it that ensures
that the General Assembly, the state legislature is, is is
(24:43):
accountable to to the work as well.
So for instance, you know, I believe that we have to have
real progressive revenue in order to protect working people.
There are revenue ideas that require the state legislature to
put to put forth an effort to see to it that it gets
accomplished. The same thing is going to apply
to not just Mayor Mamdani, but mayors across this country.
(25:06):
We have limited levers that we can pull as local executives to
generate revenue. A lot of it requires the state
legislature to engage. And so it's that type of
activity that I believe that he stays, if he stays that course
that that agenda that he ran on,he could see to it that the
people ensure that it becomes a reality.
(25:29):
Let's talk about the budget herein Chicago since you sort of
alluded to it, right? You sort of alluded to it.
I mean, look, last month, you know, it has been widely
reported the City Council for the first time in action to
budget without the mayor support.
You called the document morally bankrupt.
And look, the you ran on a platform of addressing the
(25:52):
city's structural deficits. You suggested when you ran that
you would run on this platform of of $800 million in new taxes.
There have been a couple of efforts you have made to
increase revenue that have fallen short both at the City
Council and by the voters. In September, you declared
(26:14):
quote, we don't have a spending problem, we have a revenue
problem. Do you still believe that and
what is your plan? Yeah, well, we, I still believe
it. We have a revenue challenge.
And it's not just the city of Chicago, right?
These are budgets across America, right?
The state of Illinois had a $3 billion budget deficit that they
(26:35):
had to close. I won't name any other states.
I'll just focus on my city and in the state that I that I'm in.
But this is a challenge across America, right?
And This is why the Trump administration is is so damning
and so threatening to working people.
And so This is why, you know, I put forth a a couple of efforts,
right to to generate a more progressive revenue.
(26:57):
Look, just because those two measures, and I'm happy to dig
into those two measures were didnot end up the way I wanted it
to end up, it doesn't mean that the fight for progressive
revenue is 1 wrong or two over right.
I mean. If you can't get it through the
City Council, you couldn't get it through the the voters, what
is your next option? To continue to to take the case
(27:20):
to the people of this city, to take the case to the people of
the state of Illinois, and of course, to continue to take it
to City Council. Look again, you don't give up on
something because it didn't workout for us.
The fact of the matter is, whether it was civil rights or
women's rights or any other right that we were able to
secure, you may not be able to do that in the first round.
That doesn't give you an excuse to just stand idly by and just
(27:40):
total your thumb. And so, so, so this is what
we've done. We've called on the state of
Illinois to put forth a millionaire's tax.
We've heard from the speaker of the House that he's very much
interested in a millionaire's tax, right?
So we're getting some movement there.
But we also instituted what is called the smart tax, the social
media amusement responsibility tax.
It's a tax on big corporations, these big tech companies who
(28:03):
have more than 100,000 users. And that tax and that revenue is
going to go right to building and supporting our mental and
behavioral health operation here, of which we've expanded
since I've been mayor. So there are examples of our
ability to be able to move on progressive revenue, but we did,
of course, get some, some pushback from one particular
(28:24):
corporate corporate tax that I believe was the right direction.
Because this budget that ultimately passed the, the the
City Council decided instead of instead of challenging big
corporations to put more skin inthe game, they decided to sell
off debt to debt collectors to go after working people and poor
people. That is immoral.
(28:45):
There was a better pathway to dothat.
And, and furthermore, the budgetthat they ultimately went with,
there's some significant over projections of their revenue, of
which their revenue projections,which I'm already bracing the
city of Chicago for potential cuts and layoffs because of the
irresponsibility of these members of City Council.
And so look, there's no secret here that the corporate interest
(29:09):
put a lot of money into pushing back against essentially what
was 1.6% of the overall budget. 98% plus of what's in that
budget is what I proposed. The big difference was you could
balance it off the backs of working people or poor people,
or you can challenge big corporations to pay their fair
share in taxes. In this instance, there are
(29:30):
members of the City Council thatwas more interested in
protecting corporate interests than protecting the interests of
every one of. These measures went down 50 to
0. I mean, every single member of
the City Council voted against one of the measures to raise
revenue. And So what I guess my question
is, Mayor, is this. There's just no Ave. for
adjusting spending in any way. And I know that last year you
(29:50):
commissioned a task force to identify savings and
efficiencies in the city budget.They produced an interim report
that laid out nearly 100 recommendations that could save
a billion dollars a year, but according to the Civic
Federation of your proposed budget, adopted only a handful
of those recommendations. Yeah, that's a.
That's a misrepresentation of what they're saying.
We actually implemented over half just.
(30:10):
Maybe then forget that, like maybe just take the question of
spent of, of spending. Like, are you saying there's
it's this, this fiscal crisis that the city faces can only be
addressed with revenue and that there isn't work to do on the
spending front? Well, revenue is important, but
if you look at that same report that I actually implemented, I
(30:32):
put forth this report to do exactly what we did, which we
saved the taxpayers over $200 million, $600 million in the
long run based upon the implementation of those
recommendations that I put forward, right?
So we are doing both. And but if, if we're going to
continue to build more affordable homes because that's
(30:52):
what people want, if we're goingto continue to drive violence
down in the city of Chicago because that's what people want,
we have to invest in people. So it's both and it is
progressive revenue, but it's also finding ways in which we
can streamline, streamline government so that we are being
far more effective in our delivery of of services.
But people don't want cuts to services, right?
(31:13):
People want more into our education system, which is fair.
And so yes, we have implemented over half of the recommendations
from this particular report thatI commissioned where we are
saving just in the immediate, you know, over, you know, $200
million and $600 million in the long run.
You mentioned affordable housing.
In 2023, Chicago spent $747,000 per unit to build affordable
(31:36):
housing. The next largest city in the
country? Houston spends less than half of
that per unit. So you talk about affordable
housing, but the high cost is partly due to, you know, a long
list of requirements that the city has, like energy
efficiency, diversity, cabinet space.
What can you do to make it cheaper?
Well, one of the things that I've done, we put forth this
(31:58):
effort, it's called the Cut the Tape initiative, right?
And this is you know an initiative that I put forth to
actually drive cost to do development in the city of
Chicago down. And so we are moving in that
direction and as a result of that so.
Do you mean red tape? Yeah, kind of like the abundance
agenda idea. No.
Well, yeah, absolutely. Because of the bureaucracy that
that the city of Chicago has long held, it's made it very
(32:21):
difficult, darn near impossible to do business with the city of
Chicago. The city of Chicago is open for
business. We're just no longer for sale,
but this initiative does allow for that process to be
streamlined so that we can actually cut the cost to build
more affordable homes. Chicago's pension debt has
grown. We were talking about the budget
deficit, but like a lot of the reason for the budget deficit,
(32:41):
by the way, it's not not nothingyou made all by yourself.
It certainly predates you, but you are you are the mayor now.
And so you know the pension debthas grown beyond $37.2 billion.
It is the The pension debt is larger in Chicago than it is in
44 states. As you all know, last fall, you
(33:02):
even had to dip into the city's cash reserves to cover FIRE
pension payments. Pension payments now consume
over 23% of the city's budget. It's more than triple their
share a decade ago. The Wall Street Journal said
Chicago doesn't need higher taxes to drive away more
taxpayers. It needs a mayor who isn't a
(33:23):
wholly owned public union subsidiary.
Your response? Well, what's what's ironic about
that assertion is that the individuals that were in this
position before me were owned bycorporations.
That drove us into the problem in the 1st place, right?
So, you know, this idea that a working class man cannot, you
(33:45):
know, see through this moment and find responsible ways to
address an issue that corporations actually failed is
disingenuous at at at the very least.
So what we have done, of course,we continue to pay even into our
advance. It's why progressive revenue is
so critical so that it frees up resources to address all the
(34:06):
structural damage that I inherited.
Look, it's a both and approach. We have to invest in our future
while also ensuring that past mistakes are addressed.
That's why our fight with the federal government as well as
dealing with the structural challenges that we have in the
city of Chicago has, you know, demonstrated that it it that it
has its challenges. But clearly I'm up for it,
(34:27):
right? Because we've addressed many of
the structural challenges and wecontinue to address it, also
defending our city and our values against the federal
government. You mentioned you're you were a
social studies teacher. Chicago's public school system
is also nearly $10 billion in debt.
But enrollment is really far down from pre COVID levels.
(34:48):
There is. Last year, two and five Chicago
teachers were chronically absent, according to one report
by the Illinois Policy Institute.
After taking office, even the New York Times described you as
quote, almost unequivocally adopting the teachers union
agenda. Is higher pay and more staff
(35:10):
what's needed in the Chicago Public Schools right now?
Investment, that's what's neededin our public schools and that's
what's needed in our public schools across America.
You know, look. But is only investing in
teachers union in teachers salaries the way to do that?
That's part of it. But you know what we've done
here in Chicago, We've invested in special education.
We've invested in reducing classsizes.
(35:31):
We've invested in what I believeis the model for the rest of
this country, Sustainable Community Schools, which
provides real local autonomy forindividual schools within
communities that have unique challenges.
And so we've expanded the sustainable Community Schools
model where a school is adopted by a local community
organization and then there are additional resources to address
(35:53):
the unique challenges. 70% of the people of this state say
that we need more funding for our public schools.
In fact, when you look at that across this country, people
overwhelmingly know that we haveto invest more in our public
schools. Let me just say this last part.
There is an agenda, particularlycoming from One Direction in
(36:14):
this country that wants to undermine public accommodations
by going after public unions, right?
This is the antithesis, of course, to what Doctor King and
other civil rights leaders fought for, where they, you
know, made it very clear the labor rights movement and the
civil rights movement were one and the same.
And if they were to ever collidewith enormous potential, it
would have. Those were the words of Doctor
(36:35):
King at an ASME convention in 1967.
And so these individuals who believe that not paying
educators, not investing in a special education, not lowering
class sizes, I can tell you something.
They've never stepped foot in a classroom.
I have. I'm the first mayor in the
history of this city to actuallysend my children to the public
schools. I believe in them that much that
(36:56):
I'm willing to send my kids there.
I'm the beneficiary of public education.
I've taught in our public schools.
And so I'm not going to accept this frame that's coming from
extremism in this country that somehow paying educators, who by
the way, are overwhelmingly women, paying them a fair wage,
is somehow a problem. It's not investing in our
educators, investing in our families, that's the best thing
(37:18):
that we can do to protect and secure our democracy.
The math just isn't mapping, right?
What do you say about the numbers?
I mean, if it's $10 billion in debt, the math isn't, you know,
the math doesn't math. Well, here's the problem.
We've had previous administrations that have kicked
the can down the road, right where either they weren't paying
(37:38):
into the pension system, 80% of our property taxes are going
towards pensions. That's because you had mayors
who took the. Teachers who used to teach who
taught you? You're still thinking.
Teachers who taught you? That's exactly you're.
Not paying teachers that are teaching today.
Well, that's where that's where the rubber meets the road, where
I deal with the structural challenges that I inherited
(37:59):
while also moving us forward. Have we found ways to make
government permit more streamline?
Absolutely. Do we continue to invest in our
children's future? Absolutely.
They both can exist. Previous administrations didn't
do that. They chose corporations and
privatization overwhelmingly at the expense of everyday people.
We're doing it differently here in Chicago.
(38:21):
Last point, we released a half abillion dollars into our public
schools, the largest investment in the history of Chicago, to
ensure class sizes can be managed, to make sure that there
are social workers and counselors, psychiatrists in our
school buildings. Our children need investment.
That's the best way to secure safe and affordable communities
by investing in them. I'm going to play you a clip,
(38:42):
Mr. Mayor, of the original Firing Line, where one of the
guests on William F Buckley Junior's program talked to him
about things that were happeningin your city several decades
ago. Take a look.
You're clubbed, you're maced, you're gassed, you're freaked,
zapped, pushed over. If you're a peaceful, long
haired, loving protester, you'resmashed and knocked down.
If you're a cameraman, you're bricked and your camera's
(39:04):
destroyed and your your blood issplattered all over you.
I mean, it's, it's a nefarious scene as, as you probably
guessed, that's 1968 Chicago. And it was a young activist who
was talking about violence unleashed in Chicago by then
Mayor Daley during the Democratic National Convention.
Today, violence is being unleashed again against
(39:26):
protesters in American cities, most recently Minneapolis.
But we've discussed Los Angeles,Portland, Chicago.
Are there lessons from Chicago in 1968 that are useful in those
situations today? Well, we're certainly a much
different city than we were in 1968.
The complexion of leadership in this city is much different.
(39:48):
The experience of leadership is much different.
You know, what I can tell you isthat I'm confident that when we
get to the other side of this moment, we'll be a better and a
stronger city. We'll be a better and a stronger
people. But it's really going to take
all of us to continue to. Understand shoulder to shoulder.
(40:08):
I mean, the city of Chicago, we are known as the city with big
broad shoulders. It's the city where, you know,
electricity came to life. It's the city where the skyscape
scrapers became a part of the makeup of of infrastructure.
But it's also the city that thatbirth the first black president
of the United States. It's history.
(40:29):
It's the city city of the labor movement, right?
And so I'm confident that that history, as ugly as that year
was that there's so much more tocenter our guiding principles
around then the tyranny that's coming.
So we're going to stand on the hopes and dreams of our
ancestors, whether you are an immigrant from around the world
(40:51):
or you came up during the Great Migration like my family did
from the South, that the city ofChicago is the global capital of
the world. And the people of this world
will come to know that we are truly the greatest city in the
world. Your term ends next spring.
You haven't said yet whether you're going to run again.
Some of the most recent polls have your approval rating around
30%. And since 1976, most Chicago
(41:12):
mayors besides Daily have only served one term.
Why is this job a hard one to keep?
Well, look, you know, Chicago is, first of all, it's a
beautiful city. It's a tough city, right?
And people have Great Expectations from their leaders.
The people of this city elected me to build a safe and an
(41:32):
affordable city. And we're doing that.
Violent crime is down. We're building more affordable
homes. Our airports and particularly
O'Hare has set and broken records. 6 cranes in the air, 18
already confirmed the 19 O1 project on the West side of
Chicago, the side quantum on thesoutheast side of Chicago in a
neighborhood that have not had investment in over 30 years.
(41:55):
And so we are made it very clearthat we're going to focus on the
communities, we're going to build safe and affordable
communities. And that's what my focus is
going to remain. And, you know, we'll let the
politics continue to, to, to work itself out.
Every year, Chicago's Departmentof Sanitation holds a contest to
name its new snow plows. This year, you have backed the
(42:15):
name Abolish Ice. Can we infer from that that you
agree with some of the Democratswho actually have called for
abolishing ICE? Well, it's evident that there
are people across this country that are finally catching up to
where we've always been as a city.
Look, the ICE agents and the federal government in this
moment have acted irresponsibly.In fact, the ICE budget is only
(42:39):
second and third to the United States military and China's
military. Are you for abolishing all ICE?
And I'm saying that that the name of that particular piece of
fleet certainly reflect, I believe, the values of this
city. And so do you stand by
abolishing I. Fully endorse the name of this
particular fleet. Fleet calling for the abolishing
(43:01):
of ICE. So no, no final answer on
whether we should get rid of theimmigrations and.
Customs support, I mean, the useof of ICE has been quite abusive
and it's demonstrated how terrorizing that it could be.
And any form of government that harms people, we should question
whether or not it should exist. Mayor Brandon Johnson, thank you
(43:23):
for joining me on Firing LINE. You're welcome.
Thanks for having. Me.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.