February 6, 2026 • 39 mins
Minneapolis Police Chief Brian O’Hara returns to “Firing Line” to talk about the impact of the federal immigration enforcement surge in his city and the protests against it.
He addresses the Trump administration’s announcement that 700 federal officers will be leaving Minnesota and responds to comments President Trump made this week about the surge and about crime in Minneapolis.
O’Hara, who reformed the Minneapolis Police Department after George Floyd’s murder, explains why the actions of ICE are putting the progress he has made at risk and how his understaffed department is responding to the crisis.
He discusses the relationship between local and federal law enforcement, the importance of accountability, and his assessment of the tactics used by protesters. He also comments on Trump’s threats to invoke the Insurrection Act.
Support for Firing Line with Margaret Hoover is provided by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Pritzker Military Foundation, Cliff and Laurel Asness, Katharine J. Rayner, Charles R. Schwab, Lindsay and George Billingsley, The Meadowlark Foundation, Jared Stone, and Al and Kathy Hubbard.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
I'm exhausted, our cops are exhausted, and other community
is tired of all of this. I am just hopeful that we are in
a better place now than what we were in last week and that
things will remain peaceful in the city and that ultimately
this drawdown will conclude. And I'm hopeful that the
community and the Police Department here can be stronger
(00:23):
from having survived all of thispressure that we've been under
the last several weeks. That's Minneapolis Police Chief
Brian O'Hara responding to the announcement that hundreds of
federal officers are being pulled out of Minnesota.
I'm Margaret Hoover. This is THE FIRING Line podcast.
(00:46):
After Brian O'Hara LED policing reform efforts in Newark, NJ, he
came to Minneapolis to do the same.
Policing in this country dependson the consent of the community.
We require the trust of the Community in order to be
effective. But the progress he's made
restoring trust in the wake of George Floyd murder is now at
(01:06):
risk. I've been worried about that
every single day as this has been happening.
The problem is, all of that progress is incredibly fragile.
As a surge of federal immigration officers has pushed
the city and the Police Department to the brink.
The fact remains ICE is established by law, they have
lawful authority as a federal law enforcement agency, and they
(01:29):
are able to enforce federal law.Amid widespread protests and the
killing of two US citizens, Renee Goode and Alex Preddy,
Chief O'Hara has criticized the training and tactics of the
federal officers in his city. We've gotten plenty of reports
of people who have been stopped and asked for proof of
(01:52):
citizenship, seemingly for no reason other than their
appearance. But have the protests gone too
far? The reason is because these are
insurrectionists that are. Doing this work.
By and large, the overwhelming majority of people who have been
exercising their First Amendmentrights have been doing it
lawfully and peacefully. Chief Brian O'Hara, welcome back
(02:18):
to FIRING LINE. Thank you, Margaret.
President Trump's border czar Tom Homan announced this week
that he is pulling 700 immigration officers out of
Minneapolis, that body cameras will be used, and that the goal
of ICE and CPB moving forward will be to end the surge and
(02:38):
ultimately return to the 150 ICEofficers that existed before the
surge in December. And that that should happen as
soon as possible. Do you believe him?
Well, yes, I certainly have no reason not to believe Mr.
Holman. I think he's been very
consistent in his messaging as far as having targeted
(03:01):
enforcement and looking to get into prisons and jails to
conduct a majority of that enforcement.
And I think the experience that I've had with Mr. Holman
personally while he's been here and in speaking with him, I
think he's been consistent and Ithink he believes in having
professional law enforcement, which is largely unlike a lot of
(03:24):
the things that were happening here before.
That comes as a relief to you. Absolutely.
Why? I think a lot of the things that
we had been seeing in this city were very, very clearly
questionable methods, very, veryunsafe and unsound tactics, and
just a a lot of confusion and chaos in the streets.
(03:46):
I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to expect
the federal government to be able to enforce federal law in
ways that do not cause chaos andwidespread fear or question
civil rights and constitutional rights.
Even with that reduction of federal presence, 2000 or so
(04:08):
federal officers on the ground will still outnumber your
approximately 620 officers. That's more than three to 1.
And, and you have said this situation is unsustainable.
Yes. Why is it unsustainable?
What are you concerned will happen if it continues well
this? Has been going on since the end
of last year. And while this surge has been
(04:30):
happening, we've had a dramatic increase in calls for service
related to it, to the Police Department.
This is a Police Department thatwas typically staffed with about
900 officers going into 2020. And after 2020, we've lost 500
of those members. And today we've built up to
about 600 sworn members. And so it's a department that is
(04:53):
still remains very, very overstretched, understaffed and
we struggle to provide the services that we need to provide
for conventional policing of thecity.
The dramatic increase in calls for service and and confusion
and chaos around a lot of these St. operations have caused us to
(05:16):
cancel days off several times for all of our police officers,
do emergency recalls several times, have to extend tours for
all of our officers. It's a significant, significant
impact on the health and well-being of our officers and
it's just not sustainable. I mean, what you're describing
is this very precarious situation where they are calling
(05:40):
you for help because of the danger they feel from federal
officers. Well, we've gotten a number of
calls, all sorts of things happening as well as these very
large scale protests and at times unlawful activity
associated with the protests that also place a very strong
(06:01):
demand on our workforce. And at the same time, we still
have to respond to all of the things that police in cities
have to handle. Borders are home and claims that
the end of the mission, He said in a press conference this week.
The end of the mission will be dependent not on the completion
(06:24):
of the mission to identify and remove undocumented criminals
and individuals. But he said it would be
dependent on the end of illegal and threatening activity against
federal officers. Shouldn't the end of the surge
be about the mission, the supposed mission deporting
(06:45):
undocumented criminals and individuals?
Well, the the mission has been dictated by the federal
government. We have had no input as local
law enforcement or state law enforcement into what that
mission is or what the, the goals or, or projected outcome
would be. I, I, I do know quite obviously
(07:08):
as long as ICE has been in existence and before that the
Immigration and Naturalization Service, there has been
immigration enforcement consistently in Minnesota.
The the chaos and the problems that we're seeing have been
created by the manner in which this enforcement has been taking
place. Tell me more about that.
(07:29):
There's been a, you know, plentyof videos online that have shown
a lot of confusion on scenes, a lot of just really unsafe
tactics and a lot of questionable methods.
We've gotten plenty of reports of people who have been stopped
and asked for proof of citizenship seemingly for no
(07:50):
reason other than their appearance.
And I know Mr. Holman knows that's not what targeted law
enforcement looks like. And so I'm hopeful that those
types of things are a thing of the past now.
Borders are Holman claimed this week that the surge has been
successful because it has swept up, quote, a lot of bad people,
(08:14):
including fourteen people with homicide convictions, 139 people
with assault convictions, 87 people with sexual offenses,
2928 gang members. Now it's been reported that they
are not sharing these numbers with you.
Are those numbers consistent with what you have observed as
the police chief of Minneapolis?We have no official data
(08:37):
regarding any of this federal activity in the city.
None at all. So there's you have no way of
knowing with if what he said this morning is accurate or not.
No, but I, I mean, I have no reason to think it's not
accurate. I would caution though, that I
do believe state officials have said that a number of those
(08:59):
folks were actually people in prisons who were turned over
from the state custody to the feds.
When you were on this program in2023, you explained that body
cameras were, in and of themselves, not a panacea in
this circumstance. Could they be helpful?
Well, certainly I think body cameras are helpful and video in
(09:22):
general has been helpful. That's obviously why there's
been so much protest activity around a lot of enforcement.
You know, when people are present around police and they
are peace of peacefully observing, they are present in a
place where they're lawfully able to be and they're recording
(09:45):
police activity. Those are things that are
constitutionally protected. And obviously having so many
videos available has been able to shed light on what has
actually been happening in the city.
I do think obviously at times lines are crossed.
Just because people have a FirstAmendment right to observe and
(10:06):
record police doesn't mean that you have a right to physically
obstruct law enforcement or to be in a place where members of
the public otherwise are not allowed to be.
And I think at times we have seen activity that has turned
unlawful very clearly. We've had property damage at
times and other threats that have been made.
(10:29):
But for the most part, by and large, all of the protest
activity in the city, the 1st Amendment activity, has been
peaceful. Zara Holman said that he spoke
to you about protesters setting up illegal roadblocks in
Minneapolis. Is this Is this something that
would help bring down the temperature in your view?
(10:49):
There are no illegal roadblocks in the city at this time.
We have had reports of that and they've been removed by the
police. OK.
Can you comment about the character of the protests
overall? I mean, you just referenced that
overwhelmingly these are people who are peacefully asserting
their First Amendment rights, but they have been criticized by
some on the right for lacking, wait for it, the restraint,
(11:13):
grace and dignity of nonviolent protests that is often
associated with the American Civil rights movement.
Could you please comment about whether the the posture of the
protesters could be adhering more closely to those principles
of non violence or is are they being mischaracterized for
(11:36):
political purposes? Well, I think a lot of people,
whether they're in Washington oraround the country, are not
getting the full set of facts about what's actually been
happening in the city. And certainly on social media
and different media outlets willpoint people towards one side or
the other. Having actually been on the
(11:59):
ground here throughout all of this, I can tell you we've had
several times where 10s of thousands of people have been
marching in the street. And minus an incident here and
an incident there, they have largely and overwhelmingly have
been peaceful. There's been many different
types of protests though, duringthis time.
(12:21):
So at times we do have protests that are not as well organized,
that are not necessarily out to achieve the same goals, and
they've become unlawful. We've had to make dozens of
arrests outside of hotels when hotel protests, there's noise
protests turn unlawful and seek to damage property or gain
(12:42):
access to hotels. Those are all things that are
clearly illegal. There's been other times, you
know, when when protests and, and people are gathering and
there's a lot of anger and frustration, particularly after
the shootings have happened and we've had unlawful activity that
has needed to be dispersed. But by and large, the
(13:05):
overwhelming majority of people who have been exercising their
First Amendment rights have beendoing it lawfully and
peacefully. And that's just the reality of
of the facts of what have happened here.
Since federal agents killed AlexPreti and Renee Goode, Democrats
in Congress have forced a partial government shutdown at
the federal level, demanding further guardrails for ICE and
(13:26):
holding up the funding for ICE. They're among those guardrails.
They want agents to be unmasked.They want to end the sweeps.
They want to require warrants for arrest.
Are these measures that would help you in your job?
Do you support these measures? Well, I don't know the legality
around what restrictions can be placed on federal law
(13:48):
enforcement. I can tell you that our officers
do not wear masks in the performance of our duties.
Our officers wear badges with numbers on them.
They wear their family name on their uniform, and our police
cars are marked and they have numbers on them so that they're
readily identifiable. I think there's just a much
higher level of accountability around state and local police,
(14:12):
particularly in this city. And it's it's much easier for
members of the public who feel like they've been wronged in
some way to reach out and make complaints against our officers.
So I think there's just kind of two different standards, if you
will, around how easily it is tohold local law enforcement
(14:35):
accountable versus some of the federal agencies.
I mean, ICE, as you know, defends the practice of wearing
masks, saying that it prevents doxing, which can take which
place officers and their families at risk.
I mean, does that risk outweigh accountability?
Well, I do know that that is a real thing.
We had a a federal raid here on in June that was not related to
(14:56):
immigration enforcement. And a friend of mine who is a a
federal agent here in a different agency was not masked
and he had this happen to him. So I think it's a difficult,
difficult decision for people tobe placed in.
But clearly the reaction that people have had in response to
(15:17):
the manner in which law enforcement, federal law
enforcement activity has been taking place is they just don't
view these actions as legitimate.
And, and that's kind of the rootof the problem.
Policing in this country dependson the consent of the community.
Like we, we require the trust ofthe community in order to be
(15:40):
effective. If people don't trust law
enforcement, they're less likelyto call us when something
happens. They're less likely to give us
information about who's doing what in their, like in their
neighborhood. They're less likely to, you
know, participate in an investigation and cooperate as a
witness in a prosecution. So I mean, I think that's kind
of the root of what the issue isfrom a local policing
(16:03):
perspective is we need the community to be able to support
us and trust us enough so that we can be effective in our job.
You know, you were first on thisprogram three years ago almost
exactly. And you had arrived in
Minneapolis from Newark at the end of a storied career where
you had interacted with the federal government, you had
(16:24):
helped reform the Newark Police Department, and you had said
that, quote. I knew in my gut that this was
the job for me. Now I will just say you, you
came to Minneapolis after the death of George Floyd, the
murder of George Floyd. And since you've arrived,
homicides are down 20%. The department has begun to
replenish its ranks after hundreds of officers left in the
(16:47):
wake of George Floyd protests and his murder.
And you've spent time restructuring the department.
You've worked with the communityorganizations.
You you focused on restoring trust.
How does the chaos that has descended on your city undermine
the progress that you have made in the last three years?
(17:10):
I've been worried about that every single day as this has
been happening. It is true that there has been
progress. There's been progress at
reducing serious St. crime. There's been progress at
restoring trust with the community, and there's been some
progress on rebuilding the ranksof the department and restoring
(17:31):
pride in this agency. The problem is all of that
progress is incredibly fragile. And I realized that we've been
in a situation where tensions have been building for weeks,
and I had been worried that we would have tragedy occur, which
unfortunately has happened twice, people losing their
(17:52):
lives. But I've been worried that we'd
have a moment where we would simply just lose control again
and have significant civil unrest and looting and structure
fires and all those things that happened here in 2020.
And I was worried that that would restart the same cycle
that happened in 2020, which wasa mass exodus of officers, a
(18:15):
dramatic increase in crime and really an increase in loss of
life in the community. And my fear has been that if we
set off that cycle again now, while we really don't have much
of A buffer with staffing, that it could potentially just be
something we wouldn't be able tocome back from.
(18:36):
Why hasn't it? I think there's a number of
factors that have played into it.
I think clearly a majority of people in our community, our
residents, we do not want this city to burn again.
But there's been times clearly where there's been a whole lot
of anger and frustration. And I've been nervous that it's
(18:57):
been close. I mean, we've called in all
sworn personnel, we've asked formutual aid from the state and
every department there is. We've deployed the National
Guard in the city again to assist us.
And so, you know, we've, we've been close for sure, but I think
both the efforts that we've madeover the last several years to
(19:21):
restore trust, to engage with the community, to de escalate
tense situations, all of those things have helped us to be in a
better position today than the department was five years ago.
You know, President Trump has said in an interview this week
that, quote, crime now in Minneapolis is down.
Crime in all cities is down. Do you know why it's down?
(19:44):
It's down because of us. Is crime down in Minneapolis
because of President Trump? Crime has been going down on a
trajectory over the last few years and that's across all
categories of serious St. crime.And a lot of the violent crime
that is down is down, I would argue, as a result of the
partnerships that we've had withlaw enforcement agencies, and
(20:05):
that includes federal law enforcement.
The US Attorney's office, the FBI, the ATF, the DEA, they've
all been a part of helping us goafter the people who actually
are the worst of the worst gang members that were committing
murders and shooters and and carjackings.
All of those things and that enforcement combined with the
(20:26):
work that we've done with community based organizations I
believe has has enabled the cityto change course.
And that's something that was happening, you know, a few years
ago. It's not something that happened
or started happening a couple ofweeks ago.
President Trump has also said this week, quote, I learned that
maybe we can use a little more of a softer touch, but you still
(20:50):
have to be tough. We're dealing with react really
hard criminals. That is what President Trump has
said, that he has learned about this experience.
What have you learned about thisexperience?
Well, let me at least say this. You can be firm as a law
(21:12):
enforcement officer, but it doesn't mean that you don't have
compassion, that you're not fair, that you're not abiding by
the Constitution and the rule oflaw.
You know, it has been a lot to go through the last several
weeks. I'm exhausted, our cops are
exhausted, and other community is tired of all of this.
(21:34):
I am just hopeful that we are ina better place now than what we
were in last week and that things will remain peaceful in
the city and that ultimately this drawdown will conclude.
We'll go back to what was normalprior to it, and I'm hopeful
that the community and the Police Department here can be
stronger from having survived all of this pressure that we've
(21:58):
been under the last several weeks.
There was an expose this week byPro Publica, a news organization
that identified the two federal immigration agents who opened
fire in Minneapolis on the protester, Alex Pretty Jesus
Ochoa and Raymundo Gutierrez. And it noted that Ochoa had been
(22:18):
with CPB since 2018 and Gutierrez since 2014.
Now, Pro Publica published a note from the editors explaining
that quote. Such secrecy from referring to
the federal government, secrecy about identifying these
individuals, quote, deprives thepublic of the most fundamental
tool for accountability. I know that you have been
(22:42):
critical of the tactics federal officers have used in the
street, but what does this accountability and the lack of
accountability at the federal level due for due to the
community? Well, I don't know for sure that
there necessarily would be a lack of accountability because I
don't have any, any information at all about what investigations
(23:03):
are going on and how they're proceeding, how they're being
handled. Is that unusual?
Would they normally keep you informed of any processes or
developments? What is typical in Minnesota is
we work with all of these federal agencies and the US
attorney's office every single day.
We have relationships with a lotof these folks and we work
(23:27):
together on all kinds of cases. The Bureau of Criminal
Apprehension is the state law enforcement agency that
investigates police use of force.
They also work with the FBI routinely every day.
And so I think regardless of thequality of any investigation at
this point, the larger issue is all of this public spectacle
(23:51):
that's been created by this overwhether you're going to involve
the state or keep the state out.The lack of transparency, the
lack of communicating factual and accurate information has
just created a sense that you can't trust any of it in a large
portion of the community. And, and that's the part that's
(24:12):
really unfortunate because I do know a lot of the members of
federal law enforcement, the FBIand others who are here in the
state of Minnesota are incredibly dedicated public,
public officials. So I think that's the that's the
real loss here is no matter whathappens, so many people in the
(24:33):
public have lost faith really inall of us that would what would
happen would be accurate and truthful.
Is there any benefit by comparison to your operation
versus federal law enforcement officers?
And again, I'm not I, I'm not trying to gloat over the the
(24:53):
lack of trust that these federalofficers have incurred with your
city, but has by basis of comparison, the efforts that
you've made to improve the department stood out by contrast
in a positive way. Well, I think it has in some in
some ways, and I think that's not necessarily because of what
(25:13):
has happened during the surge. It's because of all of the
effort that we put in prior to the surge.
It's because of the renewed training that we have, the
emphasis on de escalation, the outreach to people in the
community to be a part of our new policies, our new training,
our reform process to engage with community stakeholders.
(25:34):
I think we had earned some trustbefore this, but I'm not naive
enough to think that there aren't plenty of people that
still perceive us in a differentway.
The the biggest challenge that we've had throughout all of this
is we can't please everybody. You know, when, when things
happen in the street and the police get called in because
(25:55):
there's a melee involving federal law enforcement and some
protesters, some things that mayhave become unsafe, We, our job
is to step into the middle of that, try and slow things down,
deescalate, keep the peace and keep everyone safe.
And there's been plenty of timesour cops show up and then they
(26:16):
become the object of people's frustration or people perceive
them as endorsing what ICE is doing or quote UN quote,
protecting ICE. If we show up at a hotel and we
try and deescalate things, we try and prevent people from
damaging the hotel or causing anunlawful assembly.
Some folks in that group will say, well, you're just
protecting the ICE agents that are inside.
(26:39):
No, we're literally trying to protect everyone, including the
people that are a part of the assembly from getting hurt
themselves or or from having anyunlawful activity happen.
So it's a really challenging situation.
I think the communities that aremost impacted by this, the
immigrant communities, I would argue that today there's
(27:01):
probably a greater sense of trust in those communities than
there had ever been before. You spent your professional life
dedicated to upholding the law. And when you were unanimously
confirmed as Minneapolis police chief in 2022 after the George
Floyd riots, your mandate was toimprove trust between local
communities and the police. And so I, I suspect you didn't
(27:23):
envision that the principal problem one day would be dealing
with federal, the federal government.
And yet, federal action in Minneapolis raises an issue that
has come up again and again in our nation's history since its
founding, which is the power of the states versus the power of
the federal government. I'd like to show you a clip from
1966, when William F Buckley Junior tackled this subject
(27:46):
specifically. Take a look.
Now, just as you say history proves that states rights have
been abused, doesn't history also prove that the power of
central government is the historic oppressor?
In fact, Woodrow Wilson at one point said that the history of
liberalism is the history of man's efforts to restrain the
(28:07):
growth of government. Now, insofar as your argument
about the abuses of federal government, it hasn't worked
this way in our country. What abuses of human liberty,
civil liberties have come from our states?
Chief O'Hara, of course they're they're referring to the civil
rights era when the federal government sent troops in to
(28:30):
protect Americans, particularly black citizens in the South who
were denied their rights by state governments.
You know it. It seems to me that what we're
observing today is a role reversal.
Well, at least in terms of law enforcement.
Over the last several decades, it has been the federal
government getting involved to ensure that local government,
(28:53):
local police, are honoring the constitutional rights of all
Americans. In New Oregon and Minneapolis,
you have been responsible for implementing reforms, reforms
ordered by the federal government to protect citizens
from abuses by local police. So what?
What do those experiences teach you about the relationship
between federal and state governments when it comes to law
(29:15):
enforcement? Well, law enforcement in this
country is largely a function oflocal government, and I think it
works best, especially when we're talking about St. crime,
violence, that type of thing. It works best when we work
together, federal law enforcement, state and local.
And it also works best when the local law enforcement entities
(29:37):
that know their city the best, they know the people in their
city, they know who's committingcrime in their city when they
have a say in the strategy to address crime.
And so I think from a law enforcement perspective, we're
most effective when we work together, when we are
coordinated, when it's informed by local priorities, and when
our operations are targeted against specific people who are
(30:01):
causing the most harm in our community.
That's what we did here over thelast few years, and that's what
gives the public the greatest public safety benefit.
In terms of police reform, that's largely been things that
have been ordered by the federalgovernment to fix issues that
were problematic in policing around use of force, stop search
(30:22):
and arrest practices and accountability issues.
And I know in Minneapolis especially, we've had reforms
that were ordered by the state as well as reforms that have
been implemented as directed by the Department of Justice.
So there's been a whole lot of work that's happened around
these issues. A lot of it is simply meant to
(30:45):
improve the organization. You know, policing will never be
perfect. We're always going to be made-up
of people and like any other organization, any other
business, we need to be a learning organization.
We need to be set up to constantly improve so that we
can treat, we can treat our community the best we can and we
can treat our employees the bestwe can so that they can be
(31:06):
successful. And so, you know, I, I, I think,
you know, a lot of the work thatwe've done around reform has
made a difference in the situation that we've been in, in
the street. And I think a lot of people in
the city have seen that. And Senator Rand Paul of
Kentucky, as the chair of the Homeland Security and Government
(31:26):
Affairs Committee, he'll be holding hearings in Washington
on February 12th to try to get to the bottom of what actually
happened in the shooting deaths of Renee Goode and Alex Petty.
He says he wants a full and transparent investigation.
What do you hope will come from the hearings?
Well, I don't know much about the hearings.
(31:47):
I certainly hope that there are full, thorough and complete
investigations into all three ofthe the use of force, use of
deadly force that occurred in Minneapolis.
There was a 1/3 incident in in between the two fatal shootings
where a person was was struck and survived.
(32:07):
And, you know, anytime law enforcement use deadly force in
the city, it's a serious concernthat people do expect there to
be an investigation. They expect some public
accounting of what that investigation found.
Chief, there are more than 80,000 Somalis in Minnesota,
(32:28):
many of whom are American citizens, and about eighty of
whom were charged in a series ofsocial services fraud schemes
that cost this taxpayers reportedly more than a billion
dollars. Now President Trump has called
the entire Somali community in Minnesota garbage.
(32:48):
What has your experience been with the Somali community in
Minneapolis? Well, the Somali community in
Minneapolis has been no different than any of the other
communities in the city. They've been extremely welcoming
to me and and supportive throughout my time here.
I I've tried to reach out to allof the different sectors,
(33:13):
different communities in the city, to establish those
relationships, to try and help us rebuild the department, to
help gain support from all across the city for the good
work that the men and women of the Police Department are doing.
And certainly the Somali community has been no different
and they certainly have been welcoming and supportive of me
(33:34):
personally. This week, when borders are home
and announced the reduction of federal officers.
He also in this in Minneapolis. He also implored critics to
quote, tone down the rhetoric and quote, stop violating the
law and interfering with us. Do you have concerns moving
(33:56):
forward that you're on a path for de escalation and and
improving the circumstances in your community?
I am hopeful that we are going to continue down this path of de
escalation and we will eventually get back to what had
been normal prior to all of this.
And I would agree with Mr. Homan, we don't need people
(34:17):
violating the law, whether it's around this issue or something
else. We need people to be safe.
And we do need everyone to kind of turn down the temperature and
just ensure that we we are doingeverything that we can to keep
all people in this in this city safe.
It's no surprise that the rhetoric from the president
continues to be incendiary, which must be difficult if
(34:41):
you're trying to tone down the rhetoric and the volume in your
city. When the president refers to
protesters as insurrectionists, there are some who are concerned
that his intention and his hope ultimately is to invoke the
Insurrection Act, which would allow the military to engage in
domestic law enforcement. You know what would happen, what
(35:03):
would it look like to your department if the president were
to go through and send in the military to Minneapolis?
Well, there isn't an insurrection happening here.
There isn't even civil unrest happening here.
Like I stated earlier, the overwhelming majority of the 10s
of thousands of people who have been marching repeatedly over
(35:26):
several days during this overwhelmingly has been
peaceful. And in cases where things have
become unlawful, local and statelaw enforcement, even with the
assistance of the Minnesota National Guard, have been able
to maintain the peace. And so there's just there's just
literally no need for federal resources, federal troops in any
(35:50):
way in Minnesota at this time. If the Secretary of State in
Minnesota and and other states are preparing for the
possibility that immigration agents could harass and
intimidate voters during the upcoming November midterm
elections, if that were to occurin your city, what can the
police operation do? What can you, what can you as a
(36:12):
police chief do to protect voters in Minneapolis?
Well, I don't have any specific information about threats to
upcoming voting. There's a long history and law
that's established around the role of local police and polling
sites and it generally requires law enforcement to not be even
(36:34):
at the entrance of to a polling site unless we're called in for
some public safety reason. That that's something with legal
president, not just here, but incities and states around the
country. It's generally a hands off
situation where we don't want to, you know, intimidate or
(36:55):
unduly influence, you know, the voting process.
Chief O'Hara, I, I can see your I can see that you're tired.
I can see that you are are you guys have been pushed to the
brink. And I, I, I suspect that what,
what I observe in you is only representative of your entire
department. What do you want American
(37:15):
citizens to know and understand that would help us better
understand and, and frankly, be able to to be better citizens in
this moment based on what you'reexperiencing now in Minneapolis
and what you're observing? Well, I think things are
changing in Minneapolis. It's certainly not as chaotic as
(37:39):
it had been in the past and and that's a good thing.
We've been in a very difficult situation this entire time.
Even though people may not view immigration laws as just, or
they may not view ICE as legitimate because of how they
perceive things, the fact remains is ICE is established by
(38:04):
law. They have lawful authority as a
federal law enforcement agency, and they are able to enforce
federal law. The manner in which that
enforcement has been carried outin Minnesota over the last
several weeks has created a lot of tension, a lot of confusion,
and raised a lot of very seriousquestions that need to be
(38:26):
answered. But I think going forward, I
would hope that people understand that the men and
women of the Minneapolis Police Department, though seriously
understaffed and overstretched, have performed incredibly well.
They have worked to de escalate incredibly tense situations over
(38:46):
and over and over again. They've worked without days off,
having had extended tours, having missed, you know, family
events, their child's birthdays,other types of things.
And I couldn't be prouder of howwell they've performed under
such extremely challenging conditions.
But again, this is just not sustainable.
(39:08):
And so I'm thankful that things are beginning to deescalate, and
I'm hopeful that soon everyone in the community can get back to
a normal sense of how life was here prior to all of this.
Well, from your lips to God's ears, we hope so too.
Thank you, Chief O'Hara, for returning to firing mine.
(39:29):
Thank you, Margaret.
I'm exhausted, our cops are exhausted, and other community
is tired of all of this. I am just hopeful that we are in
a better place now than what we were in last week and that
things will remain peaceful in the city and that ultimately
this drawdown will conclude. And I'm hopeful that the
community and the Police Department here can be stronger
(00:23):
from having survived all of thispressure that we've been under
the last several weeks. That's Minneapolis Police Chief
Brian O'Hara responding to the announcement that hundreds of
federal officers are being pulled out of Minnesota.
I'm Margaret Hoover. This is THE FIRING Line podcast.
(00:46):
After Brian O'Hara LED policing reform efforts in Newark, NJ, he
came to Minneapolis to do the same.
Policing in this country dependson the consent of the community.
We require the trust of the Community in order to be
effective. But the progress he's made
restoring trust in the wake of George Floyd murder is now at
(01:06):
risk. I've been worried about that
every single day as this has been happening.
The problem is, all of that progress is incredibly fragile.
As a surge of federal immigration officers has pushed
the city and the Police Department to the brink.
The fact remains ICE is established by law, they have
lawful authority as a federal law enforcement agency, and they
(01:29):
are able to enforce federal law.Amid widespread protests and the
killing of two US citizens, Renee Goode and Alex Preddy,
Chief O'Hara has criticized the training and tactics of the
federal officers in his city. We've gotten plenty of reports
of people who have been stopped and asked for proof of
(01:52):
citizenship, seemingly for no reason other than their
appearance. But have the protests gone too
far? The reason is because these are
insurrectionists that are. Doing this work.
By and large, the overwhelming majority of people who have been
exercising their First Amendmentrights have been doing it
lawfully and peacefully. Chief Brian O'Hara, welcome back
(02:18):
to FIRING LINE. Thank you, Margaret.
President Trump's border czar Tom Homan announced this week
that he is pulling 700 immigration officers out of
Minneapolis, that body cameras will be used, and that the goal
of ICE and CPB moving forward will be to end the surge and
(02:38):
ultimately return to the 150 ICEofficers that existed before the
surge in December. And that that should happen as
soon as possible. Do you believe him?
Well, yes, I certainly have no reason not to believe Mr.
Holman. I think he's been very
consistent in his messaging as far as having targeted
(03:01):
enforcement and looking to get into prisons and jails to
conduct a majority of that enforcement.
And I think the experience that I've had with Mr. Holman
personally while he's been here and in speaking with him, I
think he's been consistent and Ithink he believes in having
professional law enforcement, which is largely unlike a lot of
(03:24):
the things that were happening here before.
That comes as a relief to you. Absolutely.
Why? I think a lot of the things that
we had been seeing in this city were very, very clearly
questionable methods, very, veryunsafe and unsound tactics, and
just a a lot of confusion and chaos in the streets.
(03:46):
I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to expect
the federal government to be able to enforce federal law in
ways that do not cause chaos andwidespread fear or question
civil rights and constitutional rights.
Even with that reduction of federal presence, 2000 or so
(04:08):
federal officers on the ground will still outnumber your
approximately 620 officers. That's more than three to 1.
And, and you have said this situation is unsustainable.
Yes. Why is it unsustainable?
What are you concerned will happen if it continues well
this? Has been going on since the end
of last year. And while this surge has been
(04:30):
happening, we've had a dramatic increase in calls for service
related to it, to the Police Department.
This is a Police Department thatwas typically staffed with about
900 officers going into 2020. And after 2020, we've lost 500
of those members. And today we've built up to
about 600 sworn members. And so it's a department that is
(04:53):
still remains very, very overstretched, understaffed and
we struggle to provide the services that we need to provide
for conventional policing of thecity.
The dramatic increase in calls for service and and confusion
and chaos around a lot of these St. operations have caused us to
(05:16):
cancel days off several times for all of our police officers,
do emergency recalls several times, have to extend tours for
all of our officers. It's a significant, significant
impact on the health and well-being of our officers and
it's just not sustainable. I mean, what you're describing
is this very precarious situation where they are calling
(05:40):
you for help because of the danger they feel from federal
officers. Well, we've gotten a number of
calls, all sorts of things happening as well as these very
large scale protests and at times unlawful activity
associated with the protests that also place a very strong
(06:01):
demand on our workforce. And at the same time, we still
have to respond to all of the things that police in cities
have to handle. Borders are home and claims that
the end of the mission, He said in a press conference this week.
The end of the mission will be dependent not on the completion
(06:24):
of the mission to identify and remove undocumented criminals
and individuals. But he said it would be
dependent on the end of illegal and threatening activity against
federal officers. Shouldn't the end of the surge
be about the mission, the supposed mission deporting
(06:45):
undocumented criminals and individuals?
Well, the the mission has been dictated by the federal
government. We have had no input as local
law enforcement or state law enforcement into what that
mission is or what the, the goals or, or projected outcome
would be. I, I, I do know quite obviously
(07:08):
as long as ICE has been in existence and before that the
Immigration and Naturalization Service, there has been
immigration enforcement consistently in Minnesota.
The the chaos and the problems that we're seeing have been
created by the manner in which this enforcement has been taking
place. Tell me more about that.
(07:29):
There's been a, you know, plentyof videos online that have shown
a lot of confusion on scenes, a lot of just really unsafe
tactics and a lot of questionable methods.
We've gotten plenty of reports of people who have been stopped
and asked for proof of citizenship seemingly for no
(07:50):
reason other than their appearance.
And I know Mr. Holman knows that's not what targeted law
enforcement looks like. And so I'm hopeful that those
types of things are a thing of the past now.
Borders are Holman claimed this week that the surge has been
successful because it has swept up, quote, a lot of bad people,
(08:14):
including fourteen people with homicide convictions, 139 people
with assault convictions, 87 people with sexual offenses,
2928 gang members. Now it's been reported that they
are not sharing these numbers with you.
Are those numbers consistent with what you have observed as
the police chief of Minneapolis?We have no official data
(08:37):
regarding any of this federal activity in the city.
None at all. So there's you have no way of
knowing with if what he said this morning is accurate or not.
No, but I, I mean, I have no reason to think it's not
accurate. I would caution though, that I
do believe state officials have said that a number of those
(08:59):
folks were actually people in prisons who were turned over
from the state custody to the feds.
When you were on this program in2023, you explained that body
cameras were, in and of themselves, not a panacea in
this circumstance. Could they be helpful?
Well, certainly I think body cameras are helpful and video in
(09:22):
general has been helpful. That's obviously why there's
been so much protest activity around a lot of enforcement.
You know, when people are present around police and they
are peace of peacefully observing, they are present in a
place where they're lawfully able to be and they're recording
(09:45):
police activity. Those are things that are
constitutionally protected. And obviously having so many
videos available has been able to shed light on what has
actually been happening in the city.
I do think obviously at times lines are crossed.
Just because people have a FirstAmendment right to observe and
(10:06):
record police doesn't mean that you have a right to physically
obstruct law enforcement or to be in a place where members of
the public otherwise are not allowed to be.
And I think at times we have seen activity that has turned
unlawful very clearly. We've had property damage at
times and other threats that have been made.
(10:29):
But for the most part, by and large, all of the protest
activity in the city, the 1st Amendment activity, has been
peaceful. Zara Holman said that he spoke
to you about protesters setting up illegal roadblocks in
Minneapolis. Is this Is this something that
would help bring down the temperature in your view?
(10:49):
There are no illegal roadblocks in the city at this time.
We have had reports of that and they've been removed by the
police. OK.
Can you comment about the character of the protests
overall? I mean, you just referenced that
overwhelmingly these are people who are peacefully asserting
their First Amendment rights, but they have been criticized by
some on the right for lacking, wait for it, the restraint,
(11:13):
grace and dignity of nonviolent protests that is often
associated with the American Civil rights movement.
Could you please comment about whether the the posture of the
protesters could be adhering more closely to those principles
of non violence or is are they being mischaracterized for
(11:36):
political purposes? Well, I think a lot of people,
whether they're in Washington oraround the country, are not
getting the full set of facts about what's actually been
happening in the city. And certainly on social media
and different media outlets willpoint people towards one side or
the other. Having actually been on the
(11:59):
ground here throughout all of this, I can tell you we've had
several times where 10s of thousands of people have been
marching in the street. And minus an incident here and
an incident there, they have largely and overwhelmingly have
been peaceful. There's been many different
types of protests though, duringthis time.
(12:21):
So at times we do have protests that are not as well organized,
that are not necessarily out to achieve the same goals, and
they've become unlawful. We've had to make dozens of
arrests outside of hotels when hotel protests, there's noise
protests turn unlawful and seek to damage property or gain
(12:42):
access to hotels. Those are all things that are
clearly illegal. There's been other times, you
know, when when protests and, and people are gathering and
there's a lot of anger and frustration, particularly after
the shootings have happened and we've had unlawful activity that
has needed to be dispersed. But by and large, the
(13:05):
overwhelming majority of people who have been exercising their
First Amendment rights have beendoing it lawfully and
peacefully. And that's just the reality of
of the facts of what have happened here.
Since federal agents killed AlexPreti and Renee Goode, Democrats
in Congress have forced a partial government shutdown at
the federal level, demanding further guardrails for ICE and
(13:26):
holding up the funding for ICE. They're among those guardrails.
They want agents to be unmasked.They want to end the sweeps.
They want to require warrants for arrest.
Are these measures that would help you in your job?
Do you support these measures? Well, I don't know the legality
around what restrictions can be placed on federal law
(13:48):
enforcement. I can tell you that our officers
do not wear masks in the performance of our duties.
Our officers wear badges with numbers on them.
They wear their family name on their uniform, and our police
cars are marked and they have numbers on them so that they're
readily identifiable. I think there's just a much
higher level of accountability around state and local police,
(14:12):
particularly in this city. And it's it's much easier for
members of the public who feel like they've been wronged in
some way to reach out and make complaints against our officers.
So I think there's just kind of two different standards, if you
will, around how easily it is tohold local law enforcement
(14:35):
accountable versus some of the federal agencies.
I mean, ICE, as you know, defends the practice of wearing
masks, saying that it prevents doxing, which can take which
place officers and their families at risk.
I mean, does that risk outweigh accountability?
Well, I do know that that is a real thing.
We had a a federal raid here on in June that was not related to
(14:56):
immigration enforcement. And a friend of mine who is a a
federal agent here in a different agency was not masked
and he had this happen to him. So I think it's a difficult,
difficult decision for people tobe placed in.
But clearly the reaction that people have had in response to
(15:17):
the manner in which law enforcement, federal law
enforcement activity has been taking place is they just don't
view these actions as legitimate.
And, and that's kind of the rootof the problem.
Policing in this country dependson the consent of the community.
Like we, we require the trust ofthe community in order to be
(15:40):
effective. If people don't trust law
enforcement, they're less likelyto call us when something
happens. They're less likely to give us
information about who's doing what in their, like in their
neighborhood. They're less likely to, you
know, participate in an investigation and cooperate as a
witness in a prosecution. So I mean, I think that's kind
of the root of what the issue isfrom a local policing
(16:03):
perspective is we need the community to be able to support
us and trust us enough so that we can be effective in our job.
You know, you were first on thisprogram three years ago almost
exactly. And you had arrived in
Minneapolis from Newark at the end of a storied career where
you had interacted with the federal government, you had
(16:24):
helped reform the Newark Police Department, and you had said
that, quote. I knew in my gut that this was
the job for me. Now I will just say you, you
came to Minneapolis after the death of George Floyd, the
murder of George Floyd. And since you've arrived,
homicides are down 20%. The department has begun to
replenish its ranks after hundreds of officers left in the
(16:47):
wake of George Floyd protests and his murder.
And you've spent time restructuring the department.
You've worked with the communityorganizations.
You you focused on restoring trust.
How does the chaos that has descended on your city undermine
the progress that you have made in the last three years?
(17:10):
I've been worried about that every single day as this has
been happening. It is true that there has been
progress. There's been progress at
reducing serious St. crime. There's been progress at
restoring trust with the community, and there's been some
progress on rebuilding the ranksof the department and restoring
(17:31):
pride in this agency. The problem is all of that
progress is incredibly fragile. And I realized that we've been
in a situation where tensions have been building for weeks,
and I had been worried that we would have tragedy occur, which
unfortunately has happened twice, people losing their
(17:52):
lives. But I've been worried that we'd
have a moment where we would simply just lose control again
and have significant civil unrest and looting and structure
fires and all those things that happened here in 2020.
And I was worried that that would restart the same cycle
that happened in 2020, which wasa mass exodus of officers, a
(18:15):
dramatic increase in crime and really an increase in loss of
life in the community. And my fear has been that if we
set off that cycle again now, while we really don't have much
of A buffer with staffing, that it could potentially just be
something we wouldn't be able tocome back from.
(18:36):
Why hasn't it? I think there's a number of
factors that have played into it.
I think clearly a majority of people in our community, our
residents, we do not want this city to burn again.
But there's been times clearly where there's been a whole lot
of anger and frustration. And I've been nervous that it's
(18:57):
been close. I mean, we've called in all
sworn personnel, we've asked formutual aid from the state and
every department there is. We've deployed the National
Guard in the city again to assist us.
And so, you know, we've, we've been close for sure, but I think
both the efforts that we've madeover the last several years to
(19:21):
restore trust, to engage with the community, to de escalate
tense situations, all of those things have helped us to be in a
better position today than the department was five years ago.
You know, President Trump has said in an interview this week
that, quote, crime now in Minneapolis is down.
Crime in all cities is down. Do you know why it's down?
(19:44):
It's down because of us. Is crime down in Minneapolis
because of President Trump? Crime has been going down on a
trajectory over the last few years and that's across all
categories of serious St. crime.And a lot of the violent crime
that is down is down, I would argue, as a result of the
partnerships that we've had withlaw enforcement agencies, and
(20:05):
that includes federal law enforcement.
The US Attorney's office, the FBI, the ATF, the DEA, they've
all been a part of helping us goafter the people who actually
are the worst of the worst gang members that were committing
murders and shooters and and carjackings.
All of those things and that enforcement combined with the
(20:26):
work that we've done with community based organizations I
believe has has enabled the cityto change course.
And that's something that was happening, you know, a few years
ago. It's not something that happened
or started happening a couple ofweeks ago.
President Trump has also said this week, quote, I learned that
maybe we can use a little more of a softer touch, but you still
(20:50):
have to be tough. We're dealing with react really
hard criminals. That is what President Trump has
said, that he has learned about this experience.
What have you learned about thisexperience?
Well, let me at least say this. You can be firm as a law
(21:12):
enforcement officer, but it doesn't mean that you don't have
compassion, that you're not fair, that you're not abiding by
the Constitution and the rule oflaw.
You know, it has been a lot to go through the last several
weeks. I'm exhausted, our cops are
exhausted, and other community is tired of all of this.
(21:34):
I am just hopeful that we are ina better place now than what we
were in last week and that things will remain peaceful in
the city and that ultimately this drawdown will conclude.
We'll go back to what was normalprior to it, and I'm hopeful
that the community and the Police Department here can be
stronger from having survived all of this pressure that we've
(21:58):
been under the last several weeks.
There was an expose this week byPro Publica, a news organization
that identified the two federal immigration agents who opened
fire in Minneapolis on the protester, Alex Pretty Jesus
Ochoa and Raymundo Gutierrez. And it noted that Ochoa had been
(22:18):
with CPB since 2018 and Gutierrez since 2014.
Now, Pro Publica published a note from the editors explaining
that quote. Such secrecy from referring to
the federal government, secrecy about identifying these
individuals, quote, deprives thepublic of the most fundamental
tool for accountability. I know that you have been
(22:42):
critical of the tactics federal officers have used in the
street, but what does this accountability and the lack of
accountability at the federal level due for due to the
community? Well, I don't know for sure that
there necessarily would be a lack of accountability because I
don't have any, any information at all about what investigations
(23:03):
are going on and how they're proceeding, how they're being
handled. Is that unusual?
Would they normally keep you informed of any processes or
developments? What is typical in Minnesota is
we work with all of these federal agencies and the US
attorney's office every single day.
We have relationships with a lotof these folks and we work
(23:27):
together on all kinds of cases. The Bureau of Criminal
Apprehension is the state law enforcement agency that
investigates police use of force.
They also work with the FBI routinely every day.
And so I think regardless of thequality of any investigation at
this point, the larger issue is all of this public spectacle
(23:51):
that's been created by this overwhether you're going to involve
the state or keep the state out.The lack of transparency, the
lack of communicating factual and accurate information has
just created a sense that you can't trust any of it in a large
portion of the community. And, and that's the part that's
(24:12):
really unfortunate because I do know a lot of the members of
federal law enforcement, the FBIand others who are here in the
state of Minnesota are incredibly dedicated public,
public officials. So I think that's the that's the
real loss here is no matter whathappens, so many people in the
(24:33):
public have lost faith really inall of us that would what would
happen would be accurate and truthful.
Is there any benefit by comparison to your operation
versus federal law enforcement officers?
And again, I'm not I, I'm not trying to gloat over the the
(24:53):
lack of trust that these federalofficers have incurred with your
city, but has by basis of comparison, the efforts that
you've made to improve the department stood out by contrast
in a positive way. Well, I think it has in some in
some ways, and I think that's not necessarily because of what
(25:13):
has happened during the surge. It's because of all of the
effort that we put in prior to the surge.
It's because of the renewed training that we have, the
emphasis on de escalation, the outreach to people in the
community to be a part of our new policies, our new training,
our reform process to engage with community stakeholders.
(25:34):
I think we had earned some trustbefore this, but I'm not naive
enough to think that there aren't plenty of people that
still perceive us in a differentway.
The the biggest challenge that we've had throughout all of this
is we can't please everybody. You know, when, when things
happen in the street and the police get called in because
(25:55):
there's a melee involving federal law enforcement and some
protesters, some things that mayhave become unsafe, We, our job
is to step into the middle of that, try and slow things down,
deescalate, keep the peace and keep everyone safe.
And there's been plenty of timesour cops show up and then they
(26:16):
become the object of people's frustration or people perceive
them as endorsing what ICE is doing or quote UN quote,
protecting ICE. If we show up at a hotel and we
try and deescalate things, we try and prevent people from
damaging the hotel or causing anunlawful assembly.
Some folks in that group will say, well, you're just
protecting the ICE agents that are inside.
(26:39):
No, we're literally trying to protect everyone, including the
people that are a part of the assembly from getting hurt
themselves or or from having anyunlawful activity happen.
So it's a really challenging situation.
I think the communities that aremost impacted by this, the
immigrant communities, I would argue that today there's
(27:01):
probably a greater sense of trust in those communities than
there had ever been before. You spent your professional life
dedicated to upholding the law. And when you were unanimously
confirmed as Minneapolis police chief in 2022 after the George
Floyd riots, your mandate was toimprove trust between local
communities and the police. And so I, I suspect you didn't
(27:23):
envision that the principal problem one day would be dealing
with federal, the federal government.
And yet, federal action in Minneapolis raises an issue that
has come up again and again in our nation's history since its
founding, which is the power of the states versus the power of
the federal government. I'd like to show you a clip from
1966, when William F Buckley Junior tackled this subject
(27:46):
specifically. Take a look.
Now, just as you say history proves that states rights have
been abused, doesn't history also prove that the power of
central government is the historic oppressor?
In fact, Woodrow Wilson at one point said that the history of
liberalism is the history of man's efforts to restrain the
(28:07):
growth of government. Now, insofar as your argument
about the abuses of federal government, it hasn't worked
this way in our country. What abuses of human liberty,
civil liberties have come from our states?
Chief O'Hara, of course they're they're referring to the civil
rights era when the federal government sent troops in to
(28:30):
protect Americans, particularly black citizens in the South who
were denied their rights by state governments.
You know it. It seems to me that what we're
observing today is a role reversal.
Well, at least in terms of law enforcement.
Over the last several decades, it has been the federal
government getting involved to ensure that local government,
(28:53):
local police, are honoring the constitutional rights of all
Americans. In New Oregon and Minneapolis,
you have been responsible for implementing reforms, reforms
ordered by the federal government to protect citizens
from abuses by local police. So what?
What do those experiences teach you about the relationship
between federal and state governments when it comes to law
(29:15):
enforcement? Well, law enforcement in this
country is largely a function oflocal government, and I think it
works best, especially when we're talking about St. crime,
violence, that type of thing. It works best when we work
together, federal law enforcement, state and local.
And it also works best when the local law enforcement entities
(29:37):
that know their city the best, they know the people in their
city, they know who's committingcrime in their city when they
have a say in the strategy to address crime.
And so I think from a law enforcement perspective, we're
most effective when we work together, when we are
coordinated, when it's informed by local priorities, and when
our operations are targeted against specific people who are
(30:01):
causing the most harm in our community.
That's what we did here over thelast few years, and that's what
gives the public the greatest public safety benefit.
In terms of police reform, that's largely been things that
have been ordered by the federalgovernment to fix issues that
were problematic in policing around use of force, stop search
(30:22):
and arrest practices and accountability issues.
And I know in Minneapolis especially, we've had reforms
that were ordered by the state as well as reforms that have
been implemented as directed by the Department of Justice.
So there's been a whole lot of work that's happened around
these issues. A lot of it is simply meant to
(30:45):
improve the organization. You know, policing will never be
perfect. We're always going to be made-up
of people and like any other organization, any other
business, we need to be a learning organization.
We need to be set up to constantly improve so that we
can treat, we can treat our community the best we can and we
can treat our employees the bestwe can so that they can be
(31:06):
successful. And so, you know, I, I, I think,
you know, a lot of the work thatwe've done around reform has
made a difference in the situation that we've been in, in
the street. And I think a lot of people in
the city have seen that. And Senator Rand Paul of
Kentucky, as the chair of the Homeland Security and Government
(31:26):
Affairs Committee, he'll be holding hearings in Washington
on February 12th to try to get to the bottom of what actually
happened in the shooting deaths of Renee Goode and Alex Petty.
He says he wants a full and transparent investigation.
What do you hope will come from the hearings?
Well, I don't know much about the hearings.
(31:47):
I certainly hope that there are full, thorough and complete
investigations into all three ofthe the use of force, use of
deadly force that occurred in Minneapolis.
There was a 1/3 incident in in between the two fatal shootings
where a person was was struck and survived.
(32:07):
And, you know, anytime law enforcement use deadly force in
the city, it's a serious concernthat people do expect there to
be an investigation. They expect some public
accounting of what that investigation found.
Chief, there are more than 80,000 Somalis in Minnesota,
(32:28):
many of whom are American citizens, and about eighty of
whom were charged in a series ofsocial services fraud schemes
that cost this taxpayers reportedly more than a billion
dollars. Now President Trump has called
the entire Somali community in Minnesota garbage.
(32:48):
What has your experience been with the Somali community in
Minneapolis? Well, the Somali community in
Minneapolis has been no different than any of the other
communities in the city. They've been extremely welcoming
to me and and supportive throughout my time here.
I I've tried to reach out to allof the different sectors,
(33:13):
different communities in the city, to establish those
relationships, to try and help us rebuild the department, to
help gain support from all across the city for the good
work that the men and women of the Police Department are doing.
And certainly the Somali community has been no different
and they certainly have been welcoming and supportive of me
(33:34):
personally. This week, when borders are home
and announced the reduction of federal officers.
He also in this in Minneapolis. He also implored critics to
quote, tone down the rhetoric and quote, stop violating the
law and interfering with us. Do you have concerns moving
(33:56):
forward that you're on a path for de escalation and and
improving the circumstances in your community?
I am hopeful that we are going to continue down this path of de
escalation and we will eventually get back to what had
been normal prior to all of this.
And I would agree with Mr. Homan, we don't need people
(34:17):
violating the law, whether it's around this issue or something
else. We need people to be safe.
And we do need everyone to kind of turn down the temperature and
just ensure that we we are doingeverything that we can to keep
all people in this in this city safe.
It's no surprise that the rhetoric from the president
continues to be incendiary, which must be difficult if
(34:41):
you're trying to tone down the rhetoric and the volume in your
city. When the president refers to
protesters as insurrectionists, there are some who are concerned
that his intention and his hope ultimately is to invoke the
Insurrection Act, which would allow the military to engage in
domestic law enforcement. You know what would happen, what
(35:03):
would it look like to your department if the president were
to go through and send in the military to Minneapolis?
Well, there isn't an insurrection happening here.
There isn't even civil unrest happening here.
Like I stated earlier, the overwhelming majority of the 10s
of thousands of people who have been marching repeatedly over
(35:26):
several days during this overwhelmingly has been
peaceful. And in cases where things have
become unlawful, local and statelaw enforcement, even with the
assistance of the Minnesota National Guard, have been able
to maintain the peace. And so there's just there's just
literally no need for federal resources, federal troops in any
(35:50):
way in Minnesota at this time. If the Secretary of State in
Minnesota and and other states are preparing for the
possibility that immigration agents could harass and
intimidate voters during the upcoming November midterm
elections, if that were to occurin your city, what can the
police operation do? What can you, what can you as a
(36:12):
police chief do to protect voters in Minneapolis?
Well, I don't have any specific information about threats to
upcoming voting. There's a long history and law
that's established around the role of local police and polling
sites and it generally requires law enforcement to not be even
(36:34):
at the entrance of to a polling site unless we're called in for
some public safety reason. That that's something with legal
president, not just here, but incities and states around the
country. It's generally a hands off
situation where we don't want to, you know, intimidate or
(36:55):
unduly influence, you know, the voting process.
Chief O'Hara, I, I can see your I can see that you're tired.
I can see that you are are you guys have been pushed to the
brink. And I, I, I suspect that what,
what I observe in you is only representative of your entire
department. What do you want American
(37:15):
citizens to know and understand that would help us better
understand and, and frankly, be able to to be better citizens in
this moment based on what you'reexperiencing now in Minneapolis
and what you're observing? Well, I think things are
changing in Minneapolis. It's certainly not as chaotic as
(37:39):
it had been in the past and and that's a good thing.
We've been in a very difficult situation this entire time.
Even though people may not view immigration laws as just, or
they may not view ICE as legitimate because of how they
perceive things, the fact remains is ICE is established by
(38:04):
law. They have lawful authority as a
federal law enforcement agency, and they are able to enforce
federal law. The manner in which that
enforcement has been carried outin Minnesota over the last
several weeks has created a lot of tension, a lot of confusion,
and raised a lot of very seriousquestions that need to be
(38:26):
answered. But I think going forward, I
would hope that people understand that the men and
women of the Minneapolis Police Department, though seriously
understaffed and overstretched, have performed incredibly well.
They have worked to de escalate incredibly tense situations over
(38:46):
and over and over again. They've worked without days off,
having had extended tours, having missed, you know, family
events, their child's birthdays,other types of things.
And I couldn't be prouder of howwell they've performed under
such extremely challenging conditions.
But again, this is just not sustainable.
(39:08):
And so I'm thankful that things are beginning to deescalate, and
I'm hopeful that soon everyone in the community can get back to
a normal sense of how life was here prior to all of this.
Well, from your lips to God's ears, we hope so too.
Thank you, Chief O'Hara, for returning to firing mine.
(39:29):
Thank you, Margaret.
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