January 16, 2026 • 38 mins
Rep. James Clyburn joins Margaret Hoover to talk about “The First Eight,” his recent book about the eight Black South Carolinians who served in Congress before him and why their stories still matter.
During reconstruction after the Civil War, South Carolina sent eight Black men to Congress. After the last of them left office in 1897, it would be 95 years before the ninth–Clyburn–was elected in 1992. Clyburn explains why there was such a long gap and why he believes the segregationist past presents a cautionary tale for America today.
He criticizes President Trump and the MAGA movement, and he warns that the Supreme Court could disenfranchise Black voters if it further weakens the Voting Rights Act.
Clyburn, who is 85 and in his 17th term in Congress, reflects on his legacy, offers a message for the next generation of Democrats, and expresses hope for the nation’s future.
Support for Firing Line with Margaret Hoover is provided by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Pritzker Military Foundation, Cliff and Laurel Asness, Katharine J. Rayner, Lindsay and George Billingsley, The Meadowlark Foundation, and Jared Stone.
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(00:01):
The facts are the facts. Slavery is shameful.
Jim Crow is shameful. Lynching is shameful.
All of that was made legal in this country.
That's shameful. So he is correct that history is
shameful. But what?
He's attempting to eliminate theside of that history of the
(00:23):
victims rather than the perpetrators.
That's South Carolina Congressman Jim Clyburn
responding to President Trump's complaints that teaching about
America's failings fosters shame.
I'm Margaret Hoover. This is the Firing Line podcast.
When Jim Clyburn was elected to Congress in 1992, it had been 95
(00:47):
years since South Carolina had last sent a black American to
Congress. I got elected to Congress at 52.
Think about the focus on Are youtoo old to be here?
Well, I kind of think I was too old to be a freshman
congressman. In his recent book The 1st 8,
the influential Democrat, who isnow in his 17th term, explores
the lives of the 8 black S Carolinians who went to
(01:10):
Washington before him. Robert Smalls was one of your
first eight. He was born and slaved.
He became a Civil War hero. He was asked to go to
Washington, sit down with Abraham Lincoln and get
permission for blacks to serve. So I believe that that war
changed direction because of Robert Smalls.
(01:32):
And he reflects on why it took so long to elect the 9th.
Instance after instance, they made the decision, we're going
to take our society back as close to slavery as we can get
it without violating the Constitution.
It is a story, he says, that hastroubling echoes in America
today. If you want to know what all
this is about, you can get a nice concise understanding from
(01:54):
this book that whoever put January 6th together used a road
map that came right out of this era.
Congressman Jim Clyburn, welcomeback to Firing LINE.
Thank you so much for having me back.
You have said that the inspiration for your new book,
(02:16):
The First Eight, came from conversations with people who
mistook you too often as the first black congressman from
South Carolina. That's correct.
And on one occasion, a group of people in my conference room
(02:36):
looked up on the wall and asked me who were those eight people?
And when I explained to them, one of them said, I thought you
were the first. And I commenced to tell them
about these people. Why do so many people make that
mistake though? Well, I think that whitewashing
of history has always been a part of this country, especially
(03:05):
since the Civil War. The people who came out of the
Civil War having lost the war decided that was just a battle
that they would continue the fight to redeem the South to his
pre civil war days and in my book I refer to them as
(03:31):
redeemers. The Redeemer Democrats were the.
Southern Democrats. They wanted to redeem the South.
They wanted to redeem the South to pre civil war days and
constitutionally they couldn't get it done.
But you will see in instance after instance they made the
decision we going to take our society back as close to slavery
(03:58):
as we can get it without violating the Constitution.
So now the 13th Amendment was there, which meant that they
formerly enslaved, we're now free.
The 14th Amendment gave them equal protections of the laws
and of course, the 15th Amendment the right to vote.
(04:20):
But the implementation of constitutional amendments rely
on legislative action. And that's where they made their
attacks, went straight to the legislature, and then they got
the Supreme Court to interpret these things the way they wanted
them interpreted. And that's how we got Jim Crow.
(04:41):
The first black South Carolina member of Congress, Joseph Hayne
Rainey. You say when you got to Congress
in 1993, there was practically 0evidence that he had ever been
in the same hall as you were walking.
That's correct. And I set out to change that
(05:03):
when I was in state government back in the 1970s.
I did that in the State House inColumbia.
I was working for Governor W Governor W asked me one day not
long after I got there. How is everything going as well,
Governor? Everything's going just fine,
(05:24):
except that I feel a little lonely when I walk through these
at home. And he said, what are you
talking about? People are riding all the time.
I said when I look up on these walls, all these people I see, I
see no indication that the African Americans had anything
to do with this place. I said, I would love to see a
(05:47):
portrait of some African American here.
So he said, OK, we'll see what we can do about that.
This was when you were in the South Carolina State House.
But when you were in the Capitol, you were able to hang
his portrait in the Capitol, have a meeting room designated
in his honour. Why was that so important to
(06:08):
you? Well, I believe history is very
important. History should not just be
informative, but it should instruct.
And because I believe that so strongly, I think that the
extent to which we are left out of that history takes away from
(06:30):
the foundation that our childrenand grandchildren can build
upon. I have grandchildren.
I've got a little great granddaughter.
I think it's important for her to know who she is and from when
she came. Robert Smalls was one of your
first eight. He was born enslaved.
(06:53):
He became a Civil War hero. You call him, quote, the most
consequential S Carolinian, whoever lived.
Yes. Why?
Because he was. What'd he do?
Well, Robert Smalls was born enslaved.
His mother never told who his father was, but he knew that his
(07:16):
father was not African American.Robert Smalls, when he got to be
around 12 years old, was doing things that his mother thought
would get him in real trouble. So she talked to their honor
John McGee and got him to send Robert Smalls to Charleston and
(07:42):
he would work. All his earnings would come back
to McGee. Well, while in Charleston,
people detected that there was something special about him, and
he finally got a job on the waterfront and he became a
leader among his fellow enslaved.
(08:05):
And one day, playfully on on this ship, he grabbed the
captain's cap, placed it on his head and pranced around the
ship, imitating the captain, oneof his fellow enslaver said.
You know, when you put that cap on, you look remarkably just
(08:30):
like the captain and that planetof seed in his head.
And he put together a scheme to escape from slavery.
He was already married, had one child, had friends.
He couldn't do this alone, so heconfided in his wife and his
(08:55):
friends what he wanted to do andthey all decided to be a part of
this deal. And ultimately his escape.
His escape scheme ended up delivering a major steamship to
the Union Army. The planet, in fact, the most
preferred steamship in the Confederate Navy.
(09:16):
He met with Abraham Lincoln. Yep, He escaped in May.
In August he was sitting down with Abraham Lincoln because
Saxton, the general, had come tothe conclusion that the the
Union army was not going to win that war.
They did not have enough manpower.
In order for them to win that war, they needed to have the
(09:38):
formerly enslaved it as part of the army.
And by law, they couldn't be. He got Smalls because Smalls had
become a celebrity all over the country.
Having escaped slavery the way he did, having been rewarded
(10:00):
with his freedom and with significant amounts of money, he
was asked to go to Washington, sit down with Abraham Lincoln
and get permission for blacks toserve.
And he left Washington, having convinced Lincoln to do that.
(10:23):
And Lincoln authorized him to goback to South Carolina and
recruit 5000 soldiers that turned into 40,000.
And Abraham Lincoln said himself, and it's in the book,
were it not for these soldiers, they would not have won the war.
(10:43):
So I believe bet that war changedirections because Robert
Smalls, it's pretty clear the facts are there.
There's one of the first eight whose story you say, quote,
gives me the greatest pause. That's Robert Delarge.
So how is he different? I mean, you write about him
(11:05):
because he's he's historically important.
He's one of the first eight, butbut he stands apart from the
others in your mind and in your estimation.
Why? He was different.
He was born a free block. He was from family, from Haiti.
His father was a tailor, mother a dressmaker.
(11:28):
They owned slaves. And he was not African American.
And he let everybody know that he was not African American.
He had gone to Charleston from Aiken, SC because he was of
mixed race. He was able to get an education
(11:52):
and he really joined the Confederate Army and he set
himself apart in Charleston. At this time, they had something
called the Brown Fellowship Society, made-up of people who
were not pure African American, of mixed race, and they called
themselves Browns. He joined the Brown Fellowship
(12:15):
Society. He was a big apologist for the
enslavers, and he looked down upon those who were enslaved
until the war was over and the unions had won the war.
(12:38):
And he flipped sides. He used his color to get an
education, and he used his collar to suppress those he
considered beneath him until he needed them to vote for him.
He only served one term and I think that was because people
(13:01):
soon saw through him. The the history of these men,
especially the heroes, the ones you most admire it.
It strikes me that in an era where there was a move to tear
down Confederate statues and to contextualize them and put them
in museums and take them out of public spaces, that there's a
real opportunity to build statues to these men and to
(13:25):
remind this next generation of our history.
Yeah, these things evolve. There's a bust of Robert Small's
place in the yard of his church.Tabernacle Baptist Church is not
in different. You'll see various approaches to
Robert Smalls in places, none really official I have not seen.
(13:52):
I've talked with the legislator that was working on putting his
likeness in the capital. He represents BFOOT that happens
to be a Republican. And his thing to me was, you
know, Robert Smalls was the a Republican with all eight of
these people. We're Republicans.
Well, but that this is because. Mother and father, we're
(14:12):
Republicans so but this Republican Party today.
It's a little different. It's.
A little bit different. It's a little bit different.
You say that, you know, as a result of the tumultuous and
challenging times in which we live now, this book has become
much more than an introduction to heroic figures.
Absolutely heroic figures have been lost to history.
(14:33):
It is now a cautionary tale, right?
And and you say that it became more urgent to you to tell this
tale after January 6th, right? You say that the the Redeemer
Democrats are echoing the tactics of Mogger Republicans.
Absolutely. Tell me more about that.
(14:53):
Well, just look to all the stuffthat they did.
A guy named with a spoon Gary, ageneral in the Confederate Army.
Completely unrepentant. Believed that Robert E Lee
should not have surrendered. Absolutely.
And he did everything he could. He latched on to Wade Hampton,
and Wade Hampton became his ticket.
(15:14):
He ran that campaign. Even when Wade Hampton attempted
to be conciliatory. He like a particular figure in
the White House today, he overtook the entire mechanism.
He wrote an edict, given instructions as to how they
(15:38):
should conduct themselves and one of the things he instructed
them to do always wear a red shirt.
The red shirts today, Red Caps, he instructed them.
Rifle clubs, Ku Klux Klan, use violence, Proud Boys.
(16:07):
Today you can look at what's happening today.
If you want to know what all this is about, you can get a
nice concise, concise understanding from this book.
So are you saying these tactics echo the past?
Absolutely. In fact, I am convinced that
(16:29):
whoever put January 6th togetherused a road map, that they came
right out of this era. How far do you think the current
MAGA Republican Party? Because you say Proud Boys,
which are different from run-of-the-mill MAGA.
Absolutely. How far do you think MAGA
(16:51):
Republicans? And you even referenced Donald
Trump as the leader of the MAGA Republicans.
I mean, when you reference the echoes of history, how far do
you think or are you warning that they're willing to go?
All the way. What do you mean by that?
What do you mean by all the way?Because you you write at run
(17:11):
point in the book, the MOG Republicans and their supporters
who want to make America great again want to be remaking it in
the image of the antebellum era.I just want to be clear.
Are you saying you think they want to reinstate slavery?
No, they wish to get us back as close to slavery as they can
possibly get us to without violating because the
(17:34):
Constitution. They can't do it.
Jim Crow, Yes, so. You think they would reinstitute
Jim Crow? Absolutely.
And I think the Supreme Court iswell on the way to doing that.
Remember, all of this started with a Supreme Court decision
called Dred Scott. That's what define and laid the
(17:56):
foundation for all of this stuff.
And then we got another case called Pleasure versus Ferguson
that's established, separate andequal.
Well, and of course, the SupremeCourt during Reconstruction
overturned the Civil Rights Act,Yes, so, so.
Supreme Court did Civil Rights Act was overturned by the United
(18:17):
States Supreme Court. And what has just happened with
the 1965 Voting Rights Act? The first they're doing it a
little more sophisticated, but they're doing that.
This Supreme Court is overturning the Voting Rights
Act. They are now saying it is legal
to use political results to redistrict and that is leading
(18:45):
to us eliminating more and more African Americans from from the
political process. To be really clear, your view is
the MAGA Republicans are explicitly racist and want to
turn the country back towards a time that approaches Jim Crow,
if not achieving it. I don't know that I would call
all MAGA Republicans that. I'm very circumspect about using
(19:10):
the term they they are racist. I don't put that label on any
one person, but I know what the word means.
It's sitting there in the dictionary for anybody to
understand it. They are white supremacists, and
there are people who are supporters of this president who
(19:31):
admit to me that they are white supremacists.
I've had people who support thispresident tell me that this
thought that slavery was a good thing.
And really, for us to deny that this is yes, I don't know why we
would do that. You've had people tell you who
(19:51):
support this president that theythought slavery was a good
thing. Absolutely right to my teeth.
Constituents. The last absolutely in my
Congressional District. What's that like?
Sometimes I keep things to myself.
(20:12):
In the period that you cover in your book, nearly all black
Americans were proud Republicans.
As you mentioned, your mother and father were Republicans.
All of the first state were Republicans.
The Redeemer Democrats did not want black Americans in their
party. This was the party of Lincoln.
It was the party of emancipation.
In 1992, you participated in a debate on the original Firing
(20:34):
Line with William F Buckley Junior, and the question of the
debate was, should black Americans come back to the
Republican Party? In explaining why they should
not, you invoked the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
Here's what you said then. Take a look.
And so it seems to me that it's a Democratic Party that has come
(20:54):
forward with those group remedies, such as the Voting
Rights Act. The Voting Rights Act is not
individually applied. It's applied to the group
because it was a group that was denied the right to vote.
Do you remember that debate? Yes, I do what?
Do you remember about it? You know, I, I develop a very
interesting relationship with William F Buckley.
(21:19):
He gave me a gift one time. You're not going to believe
this. It might have been right after
this show. He said I have something for
you. But he had a strange sense of
humor. And it was an axe handle.
Now, that means I mean the same to you and to a lot of your
views. It wouldn't.
But there was a governor of Georgia named Lester Maddox.
(21:42):
Lester Maddox had a restaurant that he did not want any black
people to attend. Lester Maddox is the former
governor of. Georgia former governor of
Georgia and he stood in front ofhis restaurant with an axe
handle to beat off any black person that attempted to come in
(22:02):
this restaurant and William F. Buckley Junior gave you Lester
Maddox's axe handle. Which I still have and he signed
it. Unbelievable.
William the WMF Buckley. We had this reason, so I was on
the show several times. Can I can I ask you about the
Voting Rights Act though? Because the the
(22:23):
constitutionality of whether race can be dissidered when
drawing congressional lines is coming before the Supreme Court
this term. You write that you would not
have been elected if it hadn't been for the Voting Rights Act.
Absolutely. What is at?
Stake 60 years later if it is not upheld.
(22:44):
It'd be over retrogress. I mean, that's what happened in
the 1870s. South Carolina was allocated 5
Congress people, four of them were black.
And so and in 19-O20 black. And that was for 69 years.
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I mean, for 95 years in Congress, in, in the
legislature, it was 69 years. So look, a majority of the house
in South Carolina during this period of time were black.
These were black people. Well, 40% of South Carolina are
(23:27):
Democrats. Many are black.
If we had represented if, if South Carolina had a
representation that represented directly its population, you
would have two Democrats in the House of.
Representatives, that's exactly right.
Maybe two members of color. You would have two members of
color. You could.
Earlier this year, President Trump signed an executive order
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entitled Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History.
He declared that there was, quote, a widespread effort to
rewrite our nation's history, replacing objective facts with
distorted narrative driven by ideology rather than truth.
You're a former history teacher?Yep.
And the author of a new book on black history.
What do you make of this? Hogwash.
(24:12):
Hogwash. The facts or the facts?
For some strange reason, this administration and a lot of
people in this country have decided that we can have
alternate facts. President Trump feels that that
history intends to cause shame. What do you say to that claim?
(24:38):
That this does cause shame, but it's not the way he thinks.
Slavery is shameful. Jim Crow is shameful.
Lynching is shameful. All of that was made legal in
this country. That's shameful.
So he is correct that history isshameful.
(25:01):
But what he's attempting to eliminate the side of that
history of the victims rather than the perpetrators.
You've been in Congress for morethan 30 years.
There's a move amongst a new generation of Democrats to see a
fresh batch of Democrats, younger Democrats, come into
(25:23):
play. You have announced that you will
be making an announcement about your future in Congress in the
coming months. What is your perspective now
from where you sit about a new generation of Democrats?
Oh, I believe they're very strongly, and people tend to
(25:44):
forget. When I became a member of
Congress, I hired a staff. My chief of staff was 29 years
old, the youngest on Capitol Hill.
So I asked the question a lot. Yeah, he's still with me.
He's been with me for the entire32 years.
(26:06):
So I'm supposed to fire him? You're not too old.
I got to get another 29 year old.
I mean, come on. I got elected the Congress at
52. I wish the attention of the
public was placed on why is it that Jim Clyburn gets elected
the Congress at the time when white politicians would be
(26:29):
retired? Why was it I did not get the
Congress too? I was 52.
Why was it there 95 years between #8 and #9 Nobody focuses
on that. Anybody focus on are you too old
to be here? Well, I kind of think I was too
old to be a freshman congressman.
(26:51):
But that's what the law dictated.
And so I will tell people when they start talking about what
the law this and the law that, just remember, the law is what
the majority of the voters make it.
Slavery was legal. You say that this is a
cautionary tale. This book is as much a history
(27:13):
as it is a cautionary tale. What is your precautionary
warning? The one in the.
Last generation. The woman I gave the same
warning I gave my students when I used to teach and students
would tell me how boring historywas to them.
I made sure that my history class was never born because I
(27:34):
never taught from the books. I taught from the Evening News
and the morning newspapers is the way I wrote lesson plans and
the way I taught and kids loved.I mean, kids would cut every
class except mine because they enjoyed the way that I taught.
And that's the way I tried to write this book.
(27:55):
That's so we can be informed, get some instructions and really
enjoy it. But my cautionary tale is this.
It's really term Anything that'shappened before can happen
again. That's the whole deal.
Just remember, all it takes is arogue Supreme Court, and I'm not
(28:21):
too sure that we have not gottenthere.
As you reflect on your own life and your work and your legacy,
what message do you have for those who follow you?
Who are the next 8? I make this a standard.
(28:43):
Politics is not complicated. It is very, very simple.
It's called building relationships.
When you offer for office, builda relationship with the
constituency of seeking to serve.
(29:03):
Get to know who they are, get toknow their families, get to know
their communities. Deal with their dreams and their
aspirations, not yours, but theirs.
They are the ones that hold yourfuture, not you.
They hold it. You said you've asked your
(29:24):
daughters to engrave on your headstone quote.
He did his best to make the greatness of America accessible
and affordable for all. You say that this is a motto
that represents who you are, andit summarizes the principles
that were instilled in you by the hopes and dreams of the 1st
8 and hopefully incentivizes those to take up the torch.
(29:51):
Yeah, he did his best to make the greatness of America
accessible and affordable for all, Right.
And the interesting thing about that, I I heard the president
say the other day that affordability is a hoax.
But let me tell you something that's been on my billboards
forever. My late wife insisted that in
(30:12):
every campaign I need to do billboards.
And so I came up with a standardbillboard, and that's it.
Because I do believe that this is a great country and no,
neither being made right, our big challenge, which is a
problem to figure out how to make this country's readiness
(30:39):
accessible and affordable for all.
If it's healthcare, which is thebig issue today, how do we make
it accessible and affordable broadband?
We pass. If you look at the new broadband
build, it was called accessible,Affordable broadband for All.
(31:00):
That's sort of tip you off as towhose build that was because I
just believe, I don't care what it is.
We come up with all these things.
This is a broadband and let me tell you why that is.
So people don't think about this.
What got me going on this is when my daughter, I was serving
on the Federal Communications Commission, and I'm talking to
(31:23):
her about this. And it's just with that, you got
to look at the way this is done.I said, how is this done?
She said, well, if there's one home in a census tract that's
connected to the Internet, the FCC declares that entire sense
(31:47):
of that, the sensor tract that'sbeing connected.
Think about living in the South.Think about the plantation life
of old, the Big House and all the other houses around it.
So the Big House gets connected to the Internet.
(32:08):
That area is now considered covered.
None of the houses around the Big House got the Internet, and
you can see that in community after community.
That's what got me going on thisInternet thing.
That's what my late wife was diabetic for 30 years.
She fought diabetes. She ended up dying from
(32:30):
diabetes. And I learned after sitting down
with a Doctor Who was one of herdoctors, he never told me he was
one of her doctors when he called me to his office to show
me by the only way we were goingto get healthcare in rural
communities is via the Internet.Telemedicine had to be a part of
(32:51):
the equation. And that's what got me going on
this. So I, I, I just feel that we got
a great healthcare system. It's not accessible to everybody
and not affordable by everybody.Housing.
We had two big gubernatorial races here recently over in New
(33:13):
Jersey. What was the big thing with that
campaign? Affordability of energy down in
Virginia. What was the big thing down in
Virginia with that gubernatorialcampaign?
The affordability of child care,the affordability of education
here in New York City. What was the big thing about
(33:35):
that camp camp this campaign? Affordability of housing?
Yeah. Affordability of groceries.
That's always been there. There's nothing new about
affordability. Are you optimistic about the
chances for Democrats in the next cycle?
After the most recent election? Yes, Before the most recent
(33:59):
election. You weren't so sure.
Was not sure at all. Because of the leadership.
No, because of the results of election after election they
kind of lafacet I. Mean.
View the the action that people took on the elections.
(34:19):
And Donald Trump had increased his share of black male voters
by double by 50. Six simply because people are
easily brainwashed. You think that black male voters
doubled their support for Trump because they were brainwashed?
They believe that's foolishness.When I first started in
politics, I used to say that there's no substitute for
(34:46):
substance. I used to say that a lot.
Do you still believe that? No.
Why? Because style Trump's substance,
and that is an intended. Fun.
So what does that mean for the future?
That means we got to get beyond this town.
We got to get back to substance.We got to say, I don't care how
(35:13):
pretty the language, I don't care how forceful the language.
What is the substance when you have insulin costing 6 and
$700.00 a month for a person andyou get that insulin reduced to
(35:39):
$35 a month, What's the most important to that person?
The substance of that decision or the style within which you
make it? And you got a person with a lot
of style now that's removing that that cap and we'll let
insulin go back up to $600 a month.
(36:01):
That's why I say we have reacheda point in this country this
style seems to trump substance. How do we get back and what
gives you hope? We had to start electing people
to office who believe in constitution, who believe in
representative democracy. And I say that because that's
(36:22):
what a Republic is, a representative democracy.
And when Desmond Franklin first in tone that we've given you a
Republic if you can keep it, he himself expressed a doubt as
well not this country would be able to keep this Republic do.
(36:43):
You think we can? I think we can, but the question
is, will we? Foley.
I have no idea. That remains to be seen.
I'd love to end on how you were going to reflect on your legacy.
Well, each individual got to take slows in the fact that they
(37:05):
have something to say about this.
You got to understand they win this election.
Did I dwell on in this camp in this book?
When that election was decided, it was decided by one vote.
Hayes, who started Jim Crow, wonthe presidency by a vote of 185
(37:30):
to 184. The committee they decided to
give those votes to Hayes that they needed was a 15 member
committee, and the vote in that committee was eight to seven.
Reconstruction came to an end byone vote.
Jim Crow became the law of the land by one vote.
(37:50):
So I asked everybody, which willbe your one vote?
Representative Jim Clyburn, thank you for turning to Firing
Line. Thank you.
The facts are the facts. Slavery is shameful.
Jim Crow is shameful. Lynching is shameful.
All of that was made legal in this country.
That's shameful. So he is correct that history is
shameful. But what?
He's attempting to eliminate theside of that history of the
(00:23):
victims rather than the perpetrators.
That's South Carolina Congressman Jim Clyburn
responding to President Trump's complaints that teaching about
America's failings fosters shame.
I'm Margaret Hoover. This is the Firing Line podcast.
When Jim Clyburn was elected to Congress in 1992, it had been 95
(00:47):
years since South Carolina had last sent a black American to
Congress. I got elected to Congress at 52.
Think about the focus on Are youtoo old to be here?
Well, I kind of think I was too old to be a freshman
congressman. In his recent book The 1st 8,
the influential Democrat, who isnow in his 17th term, explores
the lives of the 8 black S Carolinians who went to
(01:10):
Washington before him. Robert Smalls was one of your
first eight. He was born and slaved.
He became a Civil War hero. He was asked to go to
Washington, sit down with Abraham Lincoln and get
permission for blacks to serve. So I believe that that war
changed direction because of Robert Smalls.
(01:32):
And he reflects on why it took so long to elect the 9th.
Instance after instance, they made the decision, we're going
to take our society back as close to slavery as we can get
it without violating the Constitution.
It is a story, he says, that hastroubling echoes in America
today. If you want to know what all
this is about, you can get a nice concise understanding from
(01:54):
this book that whoever put January 6th together used a road
map that came right out of this era.
Congressman Jim Clyburn, welcomeback to Firing LINE.
Thank you so much for having me back.
You have said that the inspiration for your new book,
(02:16):
The First Eight, came from conversations with people who
mistook you too often as the first black congressman from
South Carolina. That's correct.
And on one occasion, a group of people in my conference room
(02:36):
looked up on the wall and asked me who were those eight people?
And when I explained to them, one of them said, I thought you
were the first. And I commenced to tell them
about these people. Why do so many people make that
mistake though? Well, I think that whitewashing
of history has always been a part of this country, especially
(03:05):
since the Civil War. The people who came out of the
Civil War having lost the war decided that was just a battle
that they would continue the fight to redeem the South to his
pre civil war days and in my book I refer to them as
(03:31):
redeemers. The Redeemer Democrats were the.
Southern Democrats. They wanted to redeem the South.
They wanted to redeem the South to pre civil war days and
constitutionally they couldn't get it done.
But you will see in instance after instance they made the
decision we going to take our society back as close to slavery
(03:58):
as we can get it without violating the Constitution.
So now the 13th Amendment was there, which meant that they
formerly enslaved, we're now free.
The 14th Amendment gave them equal protections of the laws
and of course, the 15th Amendment the right to vote.
(04:20):
But the implementation of constitutional amendments rely
on legislative action. And that's where they made their
attacks, went straight to the legislature, and then they got
the Supreme Court to interpret these things the way they wanted
them interpreted. And that's how we got Jim Crow.
(04:41):
The first black South Carolina member of Congress, Joseph Hayne
Rainey. You say when you got to Congress
in 1993, there was practically 0evidence that he had ever been
in the same hall as you were walking.
That's correct. And I set out to change that
(05:03):
when I was in state government back in the 1970s.
I did that in the State House inColumbia.
I was working for Governor W Governor W asked me one day not
long after I got there. How is everything going as well,
Governor? Everything's going just fine,
(05:24):
except that I feel a little lonely when I walk through these
at home. And he said, what are you
talking about? People are riding all the time.
I said when I look up on these walls, all these people I see, I
see no indication that the African Americans had anything
to do with this place. I said, I would love to see a
(05:47):
portrait of some African American here.
So he said, OK, we'll see what we can do about that.
This was when you were in the South Carolina State House.
But when you were in the Capitol, you were able to hang
his portrait in the Capitol, have a meeting room designated
in his honour. Why was that so important to
(06:08):
you? Well, I believe history is very
important. History should not just be
informative, but it should instruct.
And because I believe that so strongly, I think that the
extent to which we are left out of that history takes away from
(06:30):
the foundation that our childrenand grandchildren can build
upon. I have grandchildren.
I've got a little great granddaughter.
I think it's important for her to know who she is and from when
she came. Robert Smalls was one of your
first eight. He was born enslaved.
(06:53):
He became a Civil War hero. You call him, quote, the most
consequential S Carolinian, whoever lived.
Yes. Why?
Because he was. What'd he do?
Well, Robert Smalls was born enslaved.
His mother never told who his father was, but he knew that his
(07:16):
father was not African American.Robert Smalls, when he got to be
around 12 years old, was doing things that his mother thought
would get him in real trouble. So she talked to their honor
John McGee and got him to send Robert Smalls to Charleston and
(07:42):
he would work. All his earnings would come back
to McGee. Well, while in Charleston,
people detected that there was something special about him, and
he finally got a job on the waterfront and he became a
leader among his fellow enslaved.
(08:05):
And one day, playfully on on this ship, he grabbed the
captain's cap, placed it on his head and pranced around the
ship, imitating the captain, oneof his fellow enslaver said.
You know, when you put that cap on, you look remarkably just
(08:30):
like the captain and that planetof seed in his head.
And he put together a scheme to escape from slavery.
He was already married, had one child, had friends.
He couldn't do this alone, so heconfided in his wife and his
(08:55):
friends what he wanted to do andthey all decided to be a part of
this deal. And ultimately his escape.
His escape scheme ended up delivering a major steamship to
the Union Army. The planet, in fact, the most
preferred steamship in the Confederate Navy.
(09:16):
He met with Abraham Lincoln. Yep, He escaped in May.
In August he was sitting down with Abraham Lincoln because
Saxton, the general, had come tothe conclusion that the the
Union army was not going to win that war.
They did not have enough manpower.
In order for them to win that war, they needed to have the
(09:38):
formerly enslaved it as part of the army.
And by law, they couldn't be. He got Smalls because Smalls had
become a celebrity all over the country.
Having escaped slavery the way he did, having been rewarded
(10:00):
with his freedom and with significant amounts of money, he
was asked to go to Washington, sit down with Abraham Lincoln
and get permission for blacks toserve.
And he left Washington, having convinced Lincoln to do that.
(10:23):
And Lincoln authorized him to goback to South Carolina and
recruit 5000 soldiers that turned into 40,000.
And Abraham Lincoln said himself, and it's in the book,
were it not for these soldiers, they would not have won the war.
(10:43):
So I believe bet that war changedirections because Robert
Smalls, it's pretty clear the facts are there.
There's one of the first eight whose story you say, quote,
gives me the greatest pause. That's Robert Delarge.
So how is he different? I mean, you write about him
(11:05):
because he's he's historically important.
He's one of the first eight, butbut he stands apart from the
others in your mind and in your estimation.
Why? He was different.
He was born a free block. He was from family, from Haiti.
His father was a tailor, mother a dressmaker.
(11:28):
They owned slaves. And he was not African American.
And he let everybody know that he was not African American.
He had gone to Charleston from Aiken, SC because he was of
mixed race. He was able to get an education
(11:52):
and he really joined the Confederate Army and he set
himself apart in Charleston. At this time, they had something
called the Brown Fellowship Society, made-up of people who
were not pure African American, of mixed race, and they called
themselves Browns. He joined the Brown Fellowship
(12:15):
Society. He was a big apologist for the
enslavers, and he looked down upon those who were enslaved
until the war was over and the unions had won the war.
(12:38):
And he flipped sides. He used his color to get an
education, and he used his collar to suppress those he
considered beneath him until he needed them to vote for him.
He only served one term and I think that was because people
(13:01):
soon saw through him. The the history of these men,
especially the heroes, the ones you most admire it.
It strikes me that in an era where there was a move to tear
down Confederate statues and to contextualize them and put them
in museums and take them out of public spaces, that there's a
real opportunity to build statues to these men and to
(13:25):
remind this next generation of our history.
Yeah, these things evolve. There's a bust of Robert Small's
place in the yard of his church.Tabernacle Baptist Church is not
in different. You'll see various approaches to
Robert Smalls in places, none really official I have not seen.
(13:52):
I've talked with the legislator that was working on putting his
likeness in the capital. He represents BFOOT that happens
to be a Republican. And his thing to me was, you
know, Robert Smalls was the a Republican with all eight of
these people. We're Republicans.
Well, but that this is because. Mother and father, we're
(14:12):
Republicans so but this Republican Party today.
It's a little different. It's.
A little bit different. It's a little bit different.
You say that, you know, as a result of the tumultuous and
challenging times in which we live now, this book has become
much more than an introduction to heroic figures.
Absolutely heroic figures have been lost to history.
(14:33):
It is now a cautionary tale, right?
And and you say that it became more urgent to you to tell this
tale after January 6th, right? You say that the the Redeemer
Democrats are echoing the tactics of Mogger Republicans.
Absolutely. Tell me more about that.
(14:53):
Well, just look to all the stuffthat they did.
A guy named with a spoon Gary, ageneral in the Confederate Army.
Completely unrepentant. Believed that Robert E Lee
should not have surrendered. Absolutely.
And he did everything he could. He latched on to Wade Hampton,
and Wade Hampton became his ticket.
(15:14):
He ran that campaign. Even when Wade Hampton attempted
to be conciliatory. He like a particular figure in
the White House today, he overtook the entire mechanism.
He wrote an edict, given instructions as to how they
(15:38):
should conduct themselves and one of the things he instructed
them to do always wear a red shirt.
The red shirts today, Red Caps, he instructed them.
Rifle clubs, Ku Klux Klan, use violence, Proud Boys.
(16:07):
Today you can look at what's happening today.
If you want to know what all this is about, you can get a
nice concise, concise understanding from this book.
So are you saying these tactics echo the past?
Absolutely. In fact, I am convinced that
(16:29):
whoever put January 6th togetherused a road map, that they came
right out of this era. How far do you think the current
MAGA Republican Party? Because you say Proud Boys,
which are different from run-of-the-mill MAGA.
Absolutely. How far do you think MAGA
(16:51):
Republicans? And you even referenced Donald
Trump as the leader of the MAGA Republicans.
I mean, when you reference the echoes of history, how far do
you think or are you warning that they're willing to go?
All the way. What do you mean by that?
What do you mean by all the way?Because you you write at run
(17:11):
point in the book, the MOG Republicans and their supporters
who want to make America great again want to be remaking it in
the image of the antebellum era.I just want to be clear.
Are you saying you think they want to reinstate slavery?
No, they wish to get us back as close to slavery as they can
possibly get us to without violating because the
(17:34):
Constitution. They can't do it.
Jim Crow, Yes, so. You think they would reinstitute
Jim Crow? Absolutely.
And I think the Supreme Court iswell on the way to doing that.
Remember, all of this started with a Supreme Court decision
called Dred Scott. That's what define and laid the
(17:56):
foundation for all of this stuff.
And then we got another case called Pleasure versus Ferguson
that's established, separate andequal.
Well, and of course, the SupremeCourt during Reconstruction
overturned the Civil Rights Act,Yes, so, so.
Supreme Court did Civil Rights Act was overturned by the United
(18:17):
States Supreme Court. And what has just happened with
the 1965 Voting Rights Act? The first they're doing it a
little more sophisticated, but they're doing that.
This Supreme Court is overturning the Voting Rights
Act. They are now saying it is legal
to use political results to redistrict and that is leading
(18:45):
to us eliminating more and more African Americans from from the
political process. To be really clear, your view is
the MAGA Republicans are explicitly racist and want to
turn the country back towards a time that approaches Jim Crow,
if not achieving it. I don't know that I would call
all MAGA Republicans that. I'm very circumspect about using
(19:10):
the term they they are racist. I don't put that label on any
one person, but I know what the word means.
It's sitting there in the dictionary for anybody to
understand it. They are white supremacists, and
there are people who are supporters of this president who
(19:31):
admit to me that they are white supremacists.
I've had people who support thispresident tell me that this
thought that slavery was a good thing.
And really, for us to deny that this is yes, I don't know why we
would do that. You've had people tell you who
(19:51):
support this president that theythought slavery was a good
thing. Absolutely right to my teeth.
Constituents. The last absolutely in my
Congressional District. What's that like?
Sometimes I keep things to myself.
(20:12):
In the period that you cover in your book, nearly all black
Americans were proud Republicans.
As you mentioned, your mother and father were Republicans.
All of the first state were Republicans.
The Redeemer Democrats did not want black Americans in their
party. This was the party of Lincoln.
It was the party of emancipation.
In 1992, you participated in a debate on the original Firing
(20:34):
Line with William F Buckley Junior, and the question of the
debate was, should black Americans come back to the
Republican Party? In explaining why they should
not, you invoked the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
Here's what you said then. Take a look.
And so it seems to me that it's a Democratic Party that has come
(20:54):
forward with those group remedies, such as the Voting
Rights Act. The Voting Rights Act is not
individually applied. It's applied to the group
because it was a group that was denied the right to vote.
Do you remember that debate? Yes, I do what?
Do you remember about it? You know, I, I develop a very
interesting relationship with William F Buckley.
(21:19):
He gave me a gift one time. You're not going to believe
this. It might have been right after
this show. He said I have something for
you. But he had a strange sense of
humor. And it was an axe handle.
Now, that means I mean the same to you and to a lot of your
views. It wouldn't.
But there was a governor of Georgia named Lester Maddox.
(21:42):
Lester Maddox had a restaurant that he did not want any black
people to attend. Lester Maddox is the former
governor of. Georgia former governor of
Georgia and he stood in front ofhis restaurant with an axe
handle to beat off any black person that attempted to come in
(22:02):
this restaurant and William F. Buckley Junior gave you Lester
Maddox's axe handle. Which I still have and he signed
it. Unbelievable.
William the WMF Buckley. We had this reason, so I was on
the show several times. Can I can I ask you about the
Voting Rights Act though? Because the the
(22:23):
constitutionality of whether race can be dissidered when
drawing congressional lines is coming before the Supreme Court
this term. You write that you would not
have been elected if it hadn't been for the Voting Rights Act.
Absolutely. What is at?
Stake 60 years later if it is not upheld.
(22:44):
It'd be over retrogress. I mean, that's what happened in
the 1870s. South Carolina was allocated 5
Congress people, four of them were black.
And so and in 19-O20 black. And that was for 69 years.
(23:06):
I mean, for 95 years in Congress, in, in the
legislature, it was 69 years. So look, a majority of the house
in South Carolina during this period of time were black.
These were black people. Well, 40% of South Carolina are
(23:27):
Democrats. Many are black.
If we had represented if, if South Carolina had a
representation that represented directly its population, you
would have two Democrats in the House of.
Representatives, that's exactly right.
Maybe two members of color. You would have two members of
color. You could.
Earlier this year, President Trump signed an executive order
(23:50):
entitled Restoring Truth and Sanity to American History.
He declared that there was, quote, a widespread effort to
rewrite our nation's history, replacing objective facts with
distorted narrative driven by ideology rather than truth.
You're a former history teacher?Yep.
And the author of a new book on black history.
What do you make of this? Hogwash.
(24:12):
Hogwash. The facts or the facts?
For some strange reason, this administration and a lot of
people in this country have decided that we can have
alternate facts. President Trump feels that that
history intends to cause shame. What do you say to that claim?
(24:38):
That this does cause shame, but it's not the way he thinks.
Slavery is shameful. Jim Crow is shameful.
Lynching is shameful. All of that was made legal in
this country. That's shameful.
So he is correct that history isshameful.
(25:01):
But what he's attempting to eliminate the side of that
history of the victims rather than the perpetrators.
You've been in Congress for morethan 30 years.
There's a move amongst a new generation of Democrats to see a
fresh batch of Democrats, younger Democrats, come into
(25:23):
play. You have announced that you will
be making an announcement about your future in Congress in the
coming months. What is your perspective now
from where you sit about a new generation of Democrats?
Oh, I believe they're very strongly, and people tend to
(25:44):
forget. When I became a member of
Congress, I hired a staff. My chief of staff was 29 years
old, the youngest on Capitol Hill.
So I asked the question a lot. Yeah, he's still with me.
He's been with me for the entire32 years.
(26:06):
So I'm supposed to fire him? You're not too old.
I got to get another 29 year old.
I mean, come on. I got elected the Congress at
52. I wish the attention of the
public was placed on why is it that Jim Clyburn gets elected
the Congress at the time when white politicians would be
(26:29):
retired? Why was it I did not get the
Congress too? I was 52.
Why was it there 95 years between #8 and #9 Nobody focuses
on that. Anybody focus on are you too old
to be here? Well, I kind of think I was too
old to be a freshman congressman.
(26:51):
But that's what the law dictated.
And so I will tell people when they start talking about what
the law this and the law that, just remember, the law is what
the majority of the voters make it.
Slavery was legal. You say that this is a
cautionary tale. This book is as much a history
(27:13):
as it is a cautionary tale. What is your precautionary
warning? The one in the.
Last generation. The woman I gave the same
warning I gave my students when I used to teach and students
would tell me how boring historywas to them.
I made sure that my history class was never born because I
(27:34):
never taught from the books. I taught from the Evening News
and the morning newspapers is the way I wrote lesson plans and
the way I taught and kids loved.I mean, kids would cut every
class except mine because they enjoyed the way that I taught.
And that's the way I tried to write this book.
(27:55):
That's so we can be informed, get some instructions and really
enjoy it. But my cautionary tale is this.
It's really term Anything that'shappened before can happen
again. That's the whole deal.
Just remember, all it takes is arogue Supreme Court, and I'm not
(28:21):
too sure that we have not gottenthere.
As you reflect on your own life and your work and your legacy,
what message do you have for those who follow you?
Who are the next 8? I make this a standard.
(28:43):
Politics is not complicated. It is very, very simple.
It's called building relationships.
When you offer for office, builda relationship with the
constituency of seeking to serve.
(29:03):
Get to know who they are, get toknow their families, get to know
their communities. Deal with their dreams and their
aspirations, not yours, but theirs.
They are the ones that hold yourfuture, not you.
They hold it. You said you've asked your
(29:24):
daughters to engrave on your headstone quote.
He did his best to make the greatness of America accessible
and affordable for all. You say that this is a motto
that represents who you are, andit summarizes the principles
that were instilled in you by the hopes and dreams of the 1st
8 and hopefully incentivizes those to take up the torch.
(29:51):
Yeah, he did his best to make the greatness of America
accessible and affordable for all, Right.
And the interesting thing about that, I I heard the president
say the other day that affordability is a hoax.
But let me tell you something that's been on my billboards
forever. My late wife insisted that in
(30:12):
every campaign I need to do billboards.
And so I came up with a standardbillboard, and that's it.
Because I do believe that this is a great country and no,
neither being made right, our big challenge, which is a
problem to figure out how to make this country's readiness
(30:39):
accessible and affordable for all.
If it's healthcare, which is thebig issue today, how do we make
it accessible and affordable broadband?
We pass. If you look at the new broadband
build, it was called accessible,Affordable broadband for All.
(31:00):
That's sort of tip you off as towhose build that was because I
just believe, I don't care what it is.
We come up with all these things.
This is a broadband and let me tell you why that is.
So people don't think about this.
What got me going on this is when my daughter, I was serving
on the Federal Communications Commission, and I'm talking to
(31:23):
her about this. And it's just with that, you got
to look at the way this is done.I said, how is this done?
She said, well, if there's one home in a census tract that's
connected to the Internet, the FCC declares that entire sense
(31:47):
of that, the sensor tract that'sbeing connected.
Think about living in the South.Think about the plantation life
of old, the Big House and all the other houses around it.
So the Big House gets connected to the Internet.
(32:08):
That area is now considered covered.
None of the houses around the Big House got the Internet, and
you can see that in community after community.
That's what got me going on thisInternet thing.
That's what my late wife was diabetic for 30 years.
She fought diabetes. She ended up dying from
(32:30):
diabetes. And I learned after sitting down
with a Doctor Who was one of herdoctors, he never told me he was
one of her doctors when he called me to his office to show
me by the only way we were goingto get healthcare in rural
communities is via the Internet.Telemedicine had to be a part of
(32:51):
the equation. And that's what got me going on
this. So I, I, I just feel that we got
a great healthcare system. It's not accessible to everybody
and not affordable by everybody.Housing.
We had two big gubernatorial races here recently over in New
(33:13):
Jersey. What was the big thing with that
campaign? Affordability of energy down in
Virginia. What was the big thing down in
Virginia with that gubernatorialcampaign?
The affordability of child care,the affordability of education
here in New York City. What was the big thing about
(33:35):
that camp camp this campaign? Affordability of housing?
Yeah. Affordability of groceries.
That's always been there. There's nothing new about
affordability. Are you optimistic about the
chances for Democrats in the next cycle?
After the most recent election? Yes, Before the most recent
(33:59):
election. You weren't so sure.
Was not sure at all. Because of the leadership.
No, because of the results of election after election they
kind of lafacet I. Mean.
View the the action that people took on the elections.
(34:19):
And Donald Trump had increased his share of black male voters
by double by 50. Six simply because people are
easily brainwashed. You think that black male voters
doubled their support for Trump because they were brainwashed?
They believe that's foolishness.When I first started in
politics, I used to say that there's no substitute for
(34:46):
substance. I used to say that a lot.
Do you still believe that? No.
Why? Because style Trump's substance,
and that is an intended. Fun.
So what does that mean for the future?
That means we got to get beyond this town.
We got to get back to substance.We got to say, I don't care how
(35:13):
pretty the language, I don't care how forceful the language.
What is the substance when you have insulin costing 6 and
$700.00 a month for a person andyou get that insulin reduced to
(35:39):
$35 a month, What's the most important to that person?
The substance of that decision or the style within which you
make it? And you got a person with a lot
of style now that's removing that that cap and we'll let
insulin go back up to $600 a month.
(36:01):
That's why I say we have reacheda point in this country this
style seems to trump substance. How do we get back and what
gives you hope? We had to start electing people
to office who believe in constitution, who believe in
representative democracy. And I say that because that's
(36:22):
what a Republic is, a representative democracy.
And when Desmond Franklin first in tone that we've given you a
Republic if you can keep it, he himself expressed a doubt as
well not this country would be able to keep this Republic do.
(36:43):
You think we can? I think we can, but the question
is, will we? Foley.
I have no idea. That remains to be seen.
I'd love to end on how you were going to reflect on your legacy.
Well, each individual got to take slows in the fact that they
(37:05):
have something to say about this.
You got to understand they win this election.
Did I dwell on in this camp in this book?
When that election was decided, it was decided by one vote.
Hayes, who started Jim Crow, wonthe presidency by a vote of 185
(37:30):
to 184. The committee they decided to
give those votes to Hayes that they needed was a 15 member
committee, and the vote in that committee was eight to seven.
Reconstruction came to an end byone vote.
Jim Crow became the law of the land by one vote.
(37:50):
So I asked everybody, which willbe your one vote?
Representative Jim Clyburn, thank you for turning to Firing
Line. Thank you.
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