December 19, 2025 • 25 mins
Rob Reiner talked to Margaret Hoover in 2019 about politics, activism, and his concerns for America’s future. Following the death of Reiner and his wife Michelle–and the arrest of their son for their murders–we look back at that interview, including material that did not previously air.
The legendary filmmaker discussed working with conservatives to advance the cause of marriage equality and forging friendships with Republicans who opposed Donald Trump in his first term. He also explained why he viewed Trump as a threat to democracy and why he was supporting Joe Biden heading into 2020.
Reiner, who played Mike "Meathead" Stivic on “All in the Family,” reflected on the show’s political impact. He also commented on how his progressive advocacy and frequent criticism of Trump might affect audience reactions to his films, and he assessed Hollywood’s treatment of conservative filmmakers and actors.
Support for Firing Line with Margaret Hoover is provided by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Pritzker Military Foundation, Cliff and Laurel Asness, Katharine J. Rayner, Lindsay and George Billingsley, The Meadowlark Foundation, and Jared Stone.
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(00:01):
There's no guarantee that democracy survives forever.
There's no guarantee. We're just people and laws.
I mean, when you look at the sweet spot of any great
civilization, it's usually 250 to 300 years.
That's legendary film maker Rob Reiner voicing his fears for the
future of American democracy. I'm Margaret Hoover.
(00:25):
This is THE FIRING LINE podcast.After Rob Reiner and his wife
Michelle were found dead in their home last weekend, their
son Nick was arrested and charged with their murders.
In the wake of this tragedy, I'mrevisiting my 2019 interview
with Rob Reiner, who I first metwhen we worked together in
support of marriage equality in 2010.
(00:47):
The two most important issues that I care about is 1 the
environment, because that affects the whole planet, and
two, the survival of democracy. Here we discuss his career, his
political activism, and much more.
I don't want to see the country destroyed and the good
Republicans that I talk to all the time are like their hairs on
(01:08):
fire. At a certain point you got to
say I care more about this country than I do about my
getting re elected. Rob Reiner, welcome to firing.
Line thanks for having me. It's such a delight to be with
you. You are an iconic film director
of really classic American filmslike Stand By Me and The
(01:30):
Princess Bride, and this is Final Tap.
And almost more germane to this conversation is the role you
played as the son-in-law of Archie Bunker.
Yes. But you have have gone on from
your acting career and your directing to become a political
activist. I met you first on a 'cause that
(01:51):
maybe started as a liberal causebut then became a bipartisan
cause where you worked very closely with conservative legal
icon Ted Olson and Liberal Lion David Boies to challenge the
constitutionality of Proposition8IN California, which outlawed
same sex marriage. And and that led to essentially
(02:15):
making it the law of the land toallow for same sex marriage.
And I remember, you know, when we had the first trial in San
Francisco in the District Court,you were there.
I. Sat next to you in federal
District Court. Yeah, that's where we met.
And it was an interesting, you know, dichotomy between, as you
say, David Boies and and Ted Olson.
Because the way Ted Olson talkedto me about it the first time I
(02:38):
I met him, and I even said to him when, when we first met, I
said, you, you realize you put me in bed for two days in the
Bush V Gore argument because he was on the side of, of, of
George Bush. And as it turned out, David
Boies was on the side of, of, ofAl Gore.
And the fact that they teamed upbasically took the politics out
(02:59):
of the issue. And what he said to me is that
he viewed marriage as a very conservative idea.
That is the bedrock of conservative principles that a
married couple should should be allowed to, you know, to be able
to be together and to have a family.
So that was, to me an eye openerit.
(03:20):
Was an eye opener hearing a conservative make a case for a
value and ideal that you believed in, right?
And since then, have there been any opportunities to forge that
kind of a bipartisan consensus on the political issues you've
been involved? In well, I mean, obviously the
country is so divided now. It has been divided for a long,
(03:40):
long time. I mean, there was a huge divide
that started over the Vietnam War and that divide has never
closed. It has kept getting wider and
wider and I do believe that thislast election in 2016, that
divide was exploited. The Russians saw an opportunity
where there was a huge divide and the addition of social media
(04:04):
which which blew it up all out of proportion and we have been
in that place ever since. Now, can there be consensus?
Of course there can. And what I've discovered, and
it's kind of a weird thing that and Trump has done more, I
think, to even divide us furtherin that I've made a lot of
(04:25):
Republican friends over this, people that I would not have
normally talked to, like David from.
Republicans who are never Trumpers?
Well. They didn't start out as Never
Trumper. Some of them did.
Some of them then went like, what's going on here?
I mean, David Frum and Steve Schmidt and Max Boot and Nicole
(04:45):
Wallace and I mean, you go down the list and all of a sudden
these are not people that I would necessarily agree
wholeheartedly on on issues, butcertainly they argue their point
with a basis in fact. Daniel, you know, Patrick
Moynihan said, you know, you're entitled to your own opinions,
(05:06):
not your own facts. At least there's a common basis
of fact that you can discuss things with with them.
And, and I find that that, you know, I've had, you know, I've
had dialogues with a number of Republicans and I've always said
you cannot have a healthy democracy unless you have a
healthy Republican Party and a healthy Democratic Party so that
(05:27):
we can actually debate the ideasof where we are.
I mean, we are a country of cap.We are a capitalist nation, but
we also have a lot of socialist programs inside the capitalist
nation. And we have to find a way to
balance those things. And the only way to do that is
to have two parties arguing witha with a common set of facts.
(05:50):
So when you first played Meathead, as you were
endearingly called by your father-in-law, all the family,
you were the liberal son-in-law.He was the conservative
father-in-law. And the the divisions and the
conflicts and the disagreements you had on the show in many ways
(06:11):
parallel the same disagreements that we're having today.
Let's look at a clip from All inthe Family from the first moment
you met Archie Bunker. Let me tell you something, Mr.
Bunker. No, let me tell you something,
Mr. Stivic, You are a meathead and meathead dead from the neck.
Up meat. So you wrote that episode?
(06:33):
I did. That is where they first met.
That's it. That's that was a flashback to
the first time Archie and and and Mike first meet.
And then they go on, and throughout the entire course of
the run of the show, it's markedby these fractures in their
world view, which we're going toshow a clip of heroes.
Send me your poor, you're deadbeats, you're filthy.
(06:56):
And all the nations set them in here.
They come swollen in like hands,The Spanish piage from the
powerful in there, your jacks, your Chinaman, your Crouch in
your heaves, and you live in. Come in here.
And they're all free to live in their own separate sections.
(07:16):
That's what makes America great,buddy.
How germane is that to the current?
Well, that's. Exactly.
The argument we're having now, Imean, this is an argument that's
that's as old as older than we are.
I mean, you saw that happen in Nazi Germany in this in the 30s.
We saw it happen in Brexit whereone side demonizes the other and
(07:42):
then blames the other for their lot in life and tries to
criminalize it. And that's what we're seeing
right now. You join Twitter, it's been
reported to troll President Trump.
I was so technologically inept. I mean, I didn't I didn't
e-mail, I didn't do Twitter. I didn't do anything.
My father was on Twitter long before I was on.
And he's 9797. I just turned 97.
(08:05):
Yeah. And he tweets every day.
But my wife said, you know, thisis we've got to have a way to
push back against the Trump. And so I joined Twitter and I
started that, you know, in 90s ninety, 2016.
What was it about him then and that caused you to take him
seriously? Well, I mean, it's the, it's the
cult of celebrity. I mean, you know, the
(08:27):
Republicans are the ones who do wind up.
Right. I mean the celebrity presence we
have. Ronald Reagan was Republican
celebrity, you know. Donald Reagan.
Donald Trump. And Donald Trump, I mean, and
we've seen that happen. You know, Arnold Schwarzenegger
was a celebrity in California. People are enamored with
celebrity. You know, I personally, I didn't
think he was going to win. I really didn't.
(08:48):
My wife thought he was going to win, but I, I didn't think he
was going to win. But I thought I knew this guy.
I mean, you know, I knew. I knew him because you knew him.
Or do you feel like you knew hisvoters because of the role you
played and the time you spent with those ideas in All in the
Family? You know, it's funny, I knew
there was the the, the disenfranchised white working
(09:12):
class and many cases racist mindset in this country.
I knew there was an undercurrentof racism, but I didn't know it
was going to bubble to the surface like this can.
I just ask you about that. I mean do you ever de link those
two that that white working class non college educated
voters have real economic grievances that are some
cultural grievances that aren't racism or bigotry?
(09:32):
No, no, you're exactly right. It's it's not all, I mean, you
can't say all, you know, Trump supporters are racist.
That's not true. But there's a big chunk that are
that are comfortable with him saying there are good people on
both sides. That are not are not
uncomfortable enough. Yeah, I mean, there were a
number of Bernie Sanders supporters that wound up voting
(09:54):
for Trump, so it's not clear cutin that way.
But there are, you know, a lot of factory workers who lost
their jobs be and not because ofany particular thing except for
the fact that you had technologyreplacing them.
Not so much even the globalization, which is a part
of it, sure, but not everything.And Trump, you know, said I'm
(10:17):
going to bring those factory jobs back and we're going to.
And I we knew that wasn't true. Everybody knew that wasn't true,
and he's a huckster. And he was.
He's a great huckster. He's like the best snake oil
salesman ever. I mean, he's a guy who can get
up, lie his ass off and people just believe it because maybe
because of celebrity, they likedhim on Celebrity Apprentice or
(10:39):
they don't care that he's lying.I, I, I don't know what it is.
All I know is it's poisonous forthis country because there's one
thing to say 4 years of somebody, you can start
derailing democracy in four years, but you can get eight
years and there's a real chance.There's no guarantee that
democracy survives forever. There's no guarantee.
(11:01):
It's, it's just, we're just people and laws.
So if you, if you destroy the structure and you destroy the
laws, you can wind up with an autocracy.
And that's where we're headed right now.
Well, let's let's talk about that because obviously the thing
that distinguishes this country in our 242 years of history is
that we are governed by laws andthe rule of law.
(11:23):
And, and there does seem to be an alarmism, particularly from
people who disagree with Trump, that our entire infrastructure
of rule of law will unravel at the seat of one president.
I don't think it's necessarily the case, but I would put it to
(11:46):
you this way. Is that what you just said
though? I mean, that's what you're
saying is that we, we could loseeverything.
Yes. And this is This is why I'm
saying it. And I don't think it's going to
happen. I do think that hopefully the
institutions will hold, but right now what you have is a
president who is thumbing his nose at the rule of law by not
(12:09):
allowing, whether it's his tax returns or people to, you know,
testify in front of Congress. Now there are mechanisms to deal
with that. And are they working in your?
View not yet. We'll have to see because we are
just a nation of laws and who made the laws?
People. And if people can disrupt that
legal system, then we where are we?
(12:33):
And we're seeing that happen now.
Yeah. I mean, I look, I understand the
concern and the worry and the constant need to be vigilant.
But are you optimistic that thatthat we will be able to retain
those checks and balances or areyou concerned?
I mean, it sounds like you're you're quite concerned.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm nervous aboutit, Benjamin Franklin said.
We're a Republic. If you can keep it, if you can
(12:55):
keep it. And right now we're being
tested. We as a country are being tested
whether or not we can keep it. But there's no guarantee.
I mean, when you look at the, the, the, the sweet spot of any
great civilization, it's usually250 to 300 years.
We're up coming up against that.So what we've seen in the recent
(13:18):
four years is a sledgehammer to the institutions.
And I talked to a lot of constitutional law experts and
many of them who said, you know,they respected William Barr, he
was an institutionalist and thathe was going to be, you know,
very, very down the middle with the rule of law.
He hasn't done that. He hasn't done that yet.
(13:40):
So my fear is that if we start destroying the Justice
Department, who ultimately wouldhold the president accountable?
And we don't have that. Then we start really a
dismantling. Thing and there are varying
views about whether the Justice Department should be a check on
the executive branch, of course.Well, it's really the Congress.
It's not a check on the executive branch.
(14:01):
The Congress is the check on theexecutive branch.
But if the Congress shows criminality and it's referred to
the Justice Department and they say no, right, then you have a
situation. Where the people, the check is
the people. Check becomes the people and
that becomes 2020. So where is Rob Reiner going to
focus his energy? Well, my energy is going to be
(14:21):
focused on making sure that Trump doesn't serve another
term. We we cannot have that.
And I'm not just as a Democrat, I'm as an American.
I don't want to see American institution for good
Republicans. I don't want to see the country
destroyed. And the good Republicans that I
(14:41):
talk to all the time are like their hair's on fire.
They don't understand why those people in Congress are in this
cult where they're worried abouttheir election.
At a certain point, you got to say I care more about this
country than I do about my getting reelected.
How can you be a constructive force in the 2020 field?
(15:04):
I mean, do you, how do you see your role as?
What I try to do and and it's going to be almost impossible
because, you know, Joe Biden just got into the race.
And what has to happen is Democrats have to coalesce.
Do you think that the Democraticprimary process will yield the
candidate who is best to beat Donald Trump?
(15:26):
I hope so, boy. I mean, I like Joe Biden.
I like Joe Biden. I like Joe Biden for that
reason, because to one of the things you you do get in in many
of the polls is what's the number one issue?
I mean, we're talking about healthcare, the environment.
Those are are big issues and economic issues, but beating
Donald Trump is way at the top. You know who has the ability to
(15:50):
beat Donald Trump? And Joe Biden polls very high on
that, on that, on that measure. But at some point the field has
to narrow and it is clear that the energy on the left, on the
Democratic side and the Democratic Party is on the
progressive left. That is really where.
Always is. And same thing with Republican
primaries. If you look at Republican, they
go hard, hard to the right and then have to swing to the middle
(16:13):
for the general well. That didn't happen on the
Republican side in 2016. Instead you got the the hard
right candidate who was the complete outsider, but in the
field of conservatives. But he wasn't the hard right
candidate. Well, he.
Wasn't the hard right candidate because the hard right candidate
believes in international trade?He disrupted what the mainstream
(16:34):
conservative movement heralded for, frankly, 5 decades.
I mean, since William F Buckley Junior began this program in
1966, I want to play a clip for you from a early version of
Firing Line where William F Buckley Junior was sitting here
on the set talking about like this.
Archie. Yes, you're going to see him.
Incidentally, Archie, the program that I used to watch
(16:56):
when it was on Saturday, is Archie Bunker.
Very good show. Yeah it's a it's a hilarious but
Archibank is the greatest anti conservative RIP off in the
history of modern offensives. I agree.
I mean you don't need Karl Marx.All you need is Archibank.
What make you? Despicable, but he he's kind of
endearing in a way. Well, this is the don't you go
(17:17):
but that. Don't you go giving yourself
assets. All conservatives are not
endearing. No, no, no, I say the remark,
the remarkable thing about it isthat in a hideous kind of a way,
there's something endearing about there's.
Something horrible about. He's a horrible man.
There's something endearing about him, but his points of
view are always held up to be. And.
(17:38):
Not only that means. A coward, a bully, a seat.
He didn't like Archie. He didn't like Archie because he
didn't like that he characterized.
He made a stereotype of conservatives that he didn't
like. That's my question for you is
now that you've been a politicalactivist and a director and an
actor, where do you think you have the most impact in terms of
(18:00):
really affecting hearts and minds about particular issues?
Well, I I think. Is it is it directing and is it
in Hollywood? No.
With the culture, No. Or is it actually in the nuts
and bolts of politics? There you go.
Really, there you go. Because because, you know, films
are an artistic expression. But changing the needle, I mean,
(18:24):
All in the Family was on for eight years.
We were seen by 40 to 45 millionpeople every week.
We brought these issues up everyweek.
And we were certainly part of the dialogue.
You know, people talked about it.
I mean, you didn't have TiVo andyou didn't have DVR, so you have
to watch the show. So everybody had that shared
experience and they were talkingabout it the next day.
(18:45):
But it didn't change the way, you know, America went.
It just. You don't think it laid the
foundation for certain legislation to get passed or to
change attitudes, cultural attitude?
Not really. It just was part of the
dialogue. The only thing that yes, you
have to keep stocking the conversation and that hopefully
(19:06):
leads to something, but in orderto get anything done, you really
have to get under the hood in the nuts and bolts of public
policy in order to get it passed.
What really reared its head in 2016 was the economic malaise
that had affected so much of thecountry.
That that isn't the part of the country that that necessarily
(19:26):
you or I or, or many people are from the, the, the people have
accused you of being a coastal Oly.
You're from New York and you live in Los Angeles.
Garbage and I actually had a government job for seven years
I, you know, in California. So I mean, anyway, the the point
is, the point is the 2 most important issues that I care
about is 1 the environment, because that's affect the whole
(19:49):
planet and to the survival of democracy.
Those are the two things I care about.
Well, look, the people who elected Donald Trump elected him
right on this. I mean the issue was a hollowed
out. Rust Belt, a hollowed out
manufacturing based an economy whose wages hadn't grown and had
(20:10):
been stagnant for a decade. Who?
An entire generation of men who were, you know, white working
class, non college educated men who didn't feel that Washington
was working for. Right.
And now with new technology thatwe have, whether it's making
broadband available for the whole country, whether it's
factories that create solar panels, whether it's creating
(20:33):
more wind farms, whatever it is,there's a new technology that
will drive manufacturing, not coal plants and and old
technology that has been taken up with with machines.
So there's an opportunity for those people that have been left
behind to re engage in a in a different kind of economy and in
(20:55):
a different kind of manufacturing.
So in those states that the Democrats need to win in 2020
isn't particularly popular necessarily.
I mean, you know, you know, I don't know if Rob Reiner is the
most successful messenger. No, no, I'm not.
I'm not. I'm not.
I understand that and I understand, listen, I can't tell
(21:16):
you how many times I get Lib tard, you know, on my Twitter
feed. I mean, I'm the Lib tard of the
world, you know, I, I get all that and I understand that, you
know, I'm toxic in those ways for those people.
But if anybody wants to spend any time actually talking and
talking about how policy can be affected, how it can be put
(21:37):
together, I can sit and talk with them.
As you became more political andmore of a political activist,
from being an actor to being a director to then spending a lot
of your own hard earned resources on the political
issues you cared about, yeah. How did that impact your
reputation in Hollywood? Well, I think it didn't.
It didn't make it any worse for me in Hollywood.
(22:00):
The only way it hurts me in Hollywood is when I put out
certain kinds of films, like Shock and Awe or films that I've
done recently. People hate me.
You know half the country hates me.
For you mean the red states? Yeah, they Hollywood, they don't
hate you. Hollywood, they don't hate me,
but they hate the fact that theydon't make as much money.
You know, Hollywood is also, youknow, driven by fans.
(22:23):
Do your movies suffer in red states because you made them?
Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. But the only thing that that's
good for me is I like making themovies.
And, you know, I'm now 72 years old, so I mean, I just want to
do the things I want to do. I enjoy doing it.
And some people will like them, others won't.
And you know I can't worry about.
(22:45):
That so the inverse is conservatives in Hollywood,
right? So liberals maybe have a hard
time in red states. And you know, if there were an
inverse of you, right A and a hugely successful actor and
director who then became a political activist, but on the
conservative side of issues in Hollywood, how would their
relationship with the industry have been different than yours?
(23:08):
Well, I, I think if they, you know, the bottom line is the
bottom line for, for Hollywood, which is financial.
So if that person can make a lotof money for those Hollywood
types, they'll feel they'd be fine with.
It Do you really think it's all they?
May not be liked in the community.
Right, that's what. I mean, I have, you know, I
have, you know, Jim, Jimmy Woodsis somebody.
(23:29):
I've worked with James Woods, and we're on completely opposite
sides of the political spectrum.But, you know, you'd have to ask
him if it hurts him in terms of getting hired.
But I think somebody who's making the films, the director,
producer, whatever, if they're making a lot of money, Hollywood
doesn't care. Do you think Hollywood is fair
to conservatives? Well, for the actor, maybe not,
(23:52):
maybe not because that's just, you know, you're just hiring
some, You can hire another actor.
But for the people who are in power to actually make the
films, I I don't think it matters.
Don't think it matters. As you look to 2020, what gives
you hope? Two things I think need to
happen. 1 is Donald Trump. He has to be defeated, but he
(24:14):
has to be defeated by a large margin.
And then we have to see him heldaccountable in some way other
than the ballot box. If it is determined that he that
he committed crimes, I'd like tosee him convicted because if
that doesn't happen, it it, it basically paves the way for
anybody to take stuff from foreign governments, hostile
(24:38):
foreign governments, to blind your pockets to do whatever it
is you want. And we don't want that in the
president. What you're saying is nobody
should be above the lines. That's.
That's right, that's right. You can't even.
This is way beyond Watergate. Do you ever get accused of Trump
Derangement Syndrome? What being deranged?
Or just being I mean you have tweeted more than 1000 times a
(25:00):
lot of. A lot all.
About Donald Trump, do you thinkyou've changed anybody's mind?
Who knows? I don't.
I don't believe I have changed many people's minds, but I
believe there's two aspects to this.
One is maybe you change a few people's minds around the
margin. Probably not.
What you do is you keep the people who are going to be
(25:23):
engaged, engaged to get out there and vote.
Rob Reiner, thank you for being here.
Thank you for being on fire. Thanks for having me.
There's no guarantee that democracy survives forever.
There's no guarantee. We're just people and laws.
I mean, when you look at the sweet spot of any great
civilization, it's usually 250 to 300 years.
That's legendary film maker Rob Reiner voicing his fears for the
future of American democracy. I'm Margaret Hoover.
(00:25):
This is THE FIRING LINE podcast.After Rob Reiner and his wife
Michelle were found dead in their home last weekend, their
son Nick was arrested and charged with their murders.
In the wake of this tragedy, I'mrevisiting my 2019 interview
with Rob Reiner, who I first metwhen we worked together in
support of marriage equality in 2010.
(00:47):
The two most important issues that I care about is 1 the
environment, because that affects the whole planet, and
two, the survival of democracy. Here we discuss his career, his
political activism, and much more.
I don't want to see the country destroyed and the good
Republicans that I talk to all the time are like their hairs on
(01:08):
fire. At a certain point you got to
say I care more about this country than I do about my
getting re elected. Rob Reiner, welcome to firing.
Line thanks for having me. It's such a delight to be with
you. You are an iconic film director
of really classic American filmslike Stand By Me and The
(01:30):
Princess Bride, and this is Final Tap.
And almost more germane to this conversation is the role you
played as the son-in-law of Archie Bunker.
Yes. But you have have gone on from
your acting career and your directing to become a political
activist. I met you first on a 'cause that
(01:51):
maybe started as a liberal causebut then became a bipartisan
cause where you worked very closely with conservative legal
icon Ted Olson and Liberal Lion David Boies to challenge the
constitutionality of Proposition8IN California, which outlawed
same sex marriage. And and that led to essentially
(02:15):
making it the law of the land toallow for same sex marriage.
And I remember, you know, when we had the first trial in San
Francisco in the District Court,you were there.
I. Sat next to you in federal
District Court. Yeah, that's where we met.
And it was an interesting, you know, dichotomy between, as you
say, David Boies and and Ted Olson.
Because the way Ted Olson talkedto me about it the first time I
(02:38):
I met him, and I even said to him when, when we first met, I
said, you, you realize you put me in bed for two days in the
Bush V Gore argument because he was on the side of, of, of
George Bush. And as it turned out, David
Boies was on the side of, of, ofAl Gore.
And the fact that they teamed upbasically took the politics out
(02:59):
of the issue. And what he said to me is that
he viewed marriage as a very conservative idea.
That is the bedrock of conservative principles that a
married couple should should be allowed to, you know, to be able
to be together and to have a family.
So that was, to me an eye openerit.
(03:20):
Was an eye opener hearing a conservative make a case for a
value and ideal that you believed in, right?
And since then, have there been any opportunities to forge that
kind of a bipartisan consensus on the political issues you've
been involved? In well, I mean, obviously the
country is so divided now. It has been divided for a long,
(03:40):
long time. I mean, there was a huge divide
that started over the Vietnam War and that divide has never
closed. It has kept getting wider and
wider and I do believe that thislast election in 2016, that
divide was exploited. The Russians saw an opportunity
where there was a huge divide and the addition of social media
(04:04):
which which blew it up all out of proportion and we have been
in that place ever since. Now, can there be consensus?
Of course there can. And what I've discovered, and
it's kind of a weird thing that and Trump has done more, I
think, to even divide us furtherin that I've made a lot of
(04:25):
Republican friends over this, people that I would not have
normally talked to, like David from.
Republicans who are never Trumpers?
Well. They didn't start out as Never
Trumper. Some of them did.
Some of them then went like, what's going on here?
I mean, David Frum and Steve Schmidt and Max Boot and Nicole
(04:45):
Wallace and I mean, you go down the list and all of a sudden
these are not people that I would necessarily agree
wholeheartedly on on issues, butcertainly they argue their point
with a basis in fact. Daniel, you know, Patrick
Moynihan said, you know, you're entitled to your own opinions,
(05:06):
not your own facts. At least there's a common basis
of fact that you can discuss things with with them.
And, and I find that that, you know, I've had, you know, I've
had dialogues with a number of Republicans and I've always said
you cannot have a healthy democracy unless you have a
healthy Republican Party and a healthy Democratic Party so that
(05:27):
we can actually debate the ideasof where we are.
I mean, we are a country of cap.We are a capitalist nation, but
we also have a lot of socialist programs inside the capitalist
nation. And we have to find a way to
balance those things. And the only way to do that is
to have two parties arguing witha with a common set of facts.
(05:50):
So when you first played Meathead, as you were
endearingly called by your father-in-law, all the family,
you were the liberal son-in-law.He was the conservative
father-in-law. And the the divisions and the
conflicts and the disagreements you had on the show in many ways
(06:11):
parallel the same disagreements that we're having today.
Let's look at a clip from All inthe Family from the first moment
you met Archie Bunker. Let me tell you something, Mr.
Bunker. No, let me tell you something,
Mr. Stivic, You are a meathead and meathead dead from the neck.
Up meat. So you wrote that episode?
(06:33):
I did. That is where they first met.
That's it. That's that was a flashback to
the first time Archie and and and Mike first meet.
And then they go on, and throughout the entire course of
the run of the show, it's markedby these fractures in their
world view, which we're going toshow a clip of heroes.
Send me your poor, you're deadbeats, you're filthy.
(06:56):
And all the nations set them in here.
They come swollen in like hands,The Spanish piage from the
powerful in there, your jacks, your Chinaman, your Crouch in
your heaves, and you live in. Come in here.
And they're all free to live in their own separate sections.
(07:16):
That's what makes America great,buddy.
How germane is that to the current?
Well, that's. Exactly.
The argument we're having now, Imean, this is an argument that's
that's as old as older than we are.
I mean, you saw that happen in Nazi Germany in this in the 30s.
We saw it happen in Brexit whereone side demonizes the other and
(07:42):
then blames the other for their lot in life and tries to
criminalize it. And that's what we're seeing
right now. You join Twitter, it's been
reported to troll President Trump.
I was so technologically inept. I mean, I didn't I didn't
e-mail, I didn't do Twitter. I didn't do anything.
My father was on Twitter long before I was on.
And he's 9797. I just turned 97.
(08:05):
Yeah. And he tweets every day.
But my wife said, you know, thisis we've got to have a way to
push back against the Trump. And so I joined Twitter and I
started that, you know, in 90s ninety, 2016.
What was it about him then and that caused you to take him
seriously? Well, I mean, it's the, it's the
cult of celebrity. I mean, you know, the
(08:27):
Republicans are the ones who do wind up.
Right. I mean the celebrity presence we
have. Ronald Reagan was Republican
celebrity, you know. Donald Reagan.
Donald Trump. And Donald Trump, I mean, and
we've seen that happen. You know, Arnold Schwarzenegger
was a celebrity in California. People are enamored with
celebrity. You know, I personally, I didn't
think he was going to win. I really didn't.
(08:48):
My wife thought he was going to win, but I, I didn't think he
was going to win. But I thought I knew this guy.
I mean, you know, I knew. I knew him because you knew him.
Or do you feel like you knew hisvoters because of the role you
played and the time you spent with those ideas in All in the
Family? You know, it's funny, I knew
there was the the, the disenfranchised white working
(09:12):
class and many cases racist mindset in this country.
I knew there was an undercurrentof racism, but I didn't know it
was going to bubble to the surface like this can.
I just ask you about that. I mean do you ever de link those
two that that white working class non college educated
voters have real economic grievances that are some
cultural grievances that aren't racism or bigotry?
(09:32):
No, no, you're exactly right. It's it's not all, I mean, you
can't say all, you know, Trump supporters are racist.
That's not true. But there's a big chunk that are
that are comfortable with him saying there are good people on
both sides. That are not are not
uncomfortable enough. Yeah, I mean, there were a
number of Bernie Sanders supporters that wound up voting
(09:54):
for Trump, so it's not clear cutin that way.
But there are, you know, a lot of factory workers who lost
their jobs be and not because ofany particular thing except for
the fact that you had technologyreplacing them.
Not so much even the globalization, which is a part
of it, sure, but not everything.And Trump, you know, said I'm
(10:17):
going to bring those factory jobs back and we're going to.
And I we knew that wasn't true. Everybody knew that wasn't true,
and he's a huckster. And he was.
He's a great huckster. He's like the best snake oil
salesman ever. I mean, he's a guy who can get
up, lie his ass off and people just believe it because maybe
because of celebrity, they likedhim on Celebrity Apprentice or
(10:39):
they don't care that he's lying.I, I, I don't know what it is.
All I know is it's poisonous forthis country because there's one
thing to say 4 years of somebody, you can start
derailing democracy in four years, but you can get eight
years and there's a real chance.There's no guarantee that
democracy survives forever. There's no guarantee.
(11:01):
It's, it's just, we're just people and laws.
So if you, if you destroy the structure and you destroy the
laws, you can wind up with an autocracy.
And that's where we're headed right now.
Well, let's let's talk about that because obviously the thing
that distinguishes this country in our 242 years of history is
that we are governed by laws andthe rule of law.
(11:23):
And, and there does seem to be an alarmism, particularly from
people who disagree with Trump, that our entire infrastructure
of rule of law will unravel at the seat of one president.
I don't think it's necessarily the case, but I would put it to
(11:46):
you this way. Is that what you just said
though? I mean, that's what you're
saying is that we, we could loseeverything.
Yes. And this is This is why I'm
saying it. And I don't think it's going to
happen. I do think that hopefully the
institutions will hold, but right now what you have is a
president who is thumbing his nose at the rule of law by not
(12:09):
allowing, whether it's his tax returns or people to, you know,
testify in front of Congress. Now there are mechanisms to deal
with that. And are they working in your?
View not yet. We'll have to see because we are
just a nation of laws and who made the laws?
People. And if people can disrupt that
legal system, then we where are we?
(12:33):
And we're seeing that happen now.
Yeah. I mean, I look, I understand the
concern and the worry and the constant need to be vigilant.
But are you optimistic that thatthat we will be able to retain
those checks and balances or areyou concerned?
I mean, it sounds like you're you're quite concerned.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm nervous aboutit, Benjamin Franklin said.
We're a Republic. If you can keep it, if you can
(12:55):
keep it. And right now we're being
tested. We as a country are being tested
whether or not we can keep it. But there's no guarantee.
I mean, when you look at the, the, the, the sweet spot of any
great civilization, it's usually250 to 300 years.
We're up coming up against that.So what we've seen in the recent
(13:18):
four years is a sledgehammer to the institutions.
And I talked to a lot of constitutional law experts and
many of them who said, you know,they respected William Barr, he
was an institutionalist and thathe was going to be, you know,
very, very down the middle with the rule of law.
He hasn't done that. He hasn't done that yet.
(13:40):
So my fear is that if we start destroying the Justice
Department, who ultimately wouldhold the president accountable?
And we don't have that. Then we start really a
dismantling. Thing and there are varying
views about whether the Justice Department should be a check on
the executive branch, of course.Well, it's really the Congress.
It's not a check on the executive branch.
(14:01):
The Congress is the check on theexecutive branch.
But if the Congress shows criminality and it's referred to
the Justice Department and they say no, right, then you have a
situation. Where the people, the check is
the people. Check becomes the people and
that becomes 2020. So where is Rob Reiner going to
focus his energy? Well, my energy is going to be
(14:21):
focused on making sure that Trump doesn't serve another
term. We we cannot have that.
And I'm not just as a Democrat, I'm as an American.
I don't want to see American institution for good
Republicans. I don't want to see the country
destroyed. And the good Republicans that I
(14:41):
talk to all the time are like their hair's on fire.
They don't understand why those people in Congress are in this
cult where they're worried abouttheir election.
At a certain point, you got to say I care more about this
country than I do about my getting reelected.
How can you be a constructive force in the 2020 field?
(15:04):
I mean, do you, how do you see your role as?
What I try to do and and it's going to be almost impossible
because, you know, Joe Biden just got into the race.
And what has to happen is Democrats have to coalesce.
Do you think that the Democraticprimary process will yield the
candidate who is best to beat Donald Trump?
(15:26):
I hope so, boy. I mean, I like Joe Biden.
I like Joe Biden. I like Joe Biden for that
reason, because to one of the things you you do get in in many
of the polls is what's the number one issue?
I mean, we're talking about healthcare, the environment.
Those are are big issues and economic issues, but beating
Donald Trump is way at the top. You know who has the ability to
(15:50):
beat Donald Trump? And Joe Biden polls very high on
that, on that, on that measure. But at some point the field has
to narrow and it is clear that the energy on the left, on the
Democratic side and the Democratic Party is on the
progressive left. That is really where.
Always is. And same thing with Republican
primaries. If you look at Republican, they
go hard, hard to the right and then have to swing to the middle
(16:13):
for the general well. That didn't happen on the
Republican side in 2016. Instead you got the the hard
right candidate who was the complete outsider, but in the
field of conservatives. But he wasn't the hard right
candidate. Well, he.
Wasn't the hard right candidate because the hard right candidate
believes in international trade?He disrupted what the mainstream
(16:34):
conservative movement heralded for, frankly, 5 decades.
I mean, since William F Buckley Junior began this program in
1966, I want to play a clip for you from a early version of
Firing Line where William F Buckley Junior was sitting here
on the set talking about like this.
Archie. Yes, you're going to see him.
Incidentally, Archie, the program that I used to watch
(16:56):
when it was on Saturday, is Archie Bunker.
Very good show. Yeah it's a it's a hilarious but
Archibank is the greatest anti conservative RIP off in the
history of modern offensives. I agree.
I mean you don't need Karl Marx.All you need is Archibank.
What make you? Despicable, but he he's kind of
endearing in a way. Well, this is the don't you go
(17:17):
but that. Don't you go giving yourself
assets. All conservatives are not
endearing. No, no, no, I say the remark,
the remarkable thing about it isthat in a hideous kind of a way,
there's something endearing about there's.
Something horrible about. He's a horrible man.
There's something endearing about him, but his points of
view are always held up to be. And.
(17:38):
Not only that means. A coward, a bully, a seat.
He didn't like Archie. He didn't like Archie because he
didn't like that he characterized.
He made a stereotype of conservatives that he didn't
like. That's my question for you is
now that you've been a politicalactivist and a director and an
actor, where do you think you have the most impact in terms of
(18:00):
really affecting hearts and minds about particular issues?
Well, I I think. Is it is it directing and is it
in Hollywood? No.
With the culture, No. Or is it actually in the nuts
and bolts of politics? There you go.
Really, there you go. Because because, you know, films
are an artistic expression. But changing the needle, I mean,
(18:24):
All in the Family was on for eight years.
We were seen by 40 to 45 millionpeople every week.
We brought these issues up everyweek.
And we were certainly part of the dialogue.
You know, people talked about it.
I mean, you didn't have TiVo andyou didn't have DVR, so you have
to watch the show. So everybody had that shared
experience and they were talkingabout it the next day.
(18:45):
But it didn't change the way, you know, America went.
It just. You don't think it laid the
foundation for certain legislation to get passed or to
change attitudes, cultural attitude?
Not really. It just was part of the
dialogue. The only thing that yes, you
have to keep stocking the conversation and that hopefully
(19:06):
leads to something, but in orderto get anything done, you really
have to get under the hood in the nuts and bolts of public
policy in order to get it passed.
What really reared its head in 2016 was the economic malaise
that had affected so much of thecountry.
That that isn't the part of the country that that necessarily
(19:26):
you or I or, or many people are from the, the, the people have
accused you of being a coastal Oly.
You're from New York and you live in Los Angeles.
Garbage and I actually had a government job for seven years
I, you know, in California. So I mean, anyway, the the point
is, the point is the 2 most important issues that I care
about is 1 the environment, because that's affect the whole
(19:49):
planet and to the survival of democracy.
Those are the two things I care about.
Well, look, the people who elected Donald Trump elected him
right on this. I mean the issue was a hollowed
out. Rust Belt, a hollowed out
manufacturing based an economy whose wages hadn't grown and had
(20:10):
been stagnant for a decade. Who?
An entire generation of men who were, you know, white working
class, non college educated men who didn't feel that Washington
was working for. Right.
And now with new technology thatwe have, whether it's making
broadband available for the whole country, whether it's
factories that create solar panels, whether it's creating
(20:33):
more wind farms, whatever it is,there's a new technology that
will drive manufacturing, not coal plants and and old
technology that has been taken up with with machines.
So there's an opportunity for those people that have been left
behind to re engage in a in a different kind of economy and in
(20:55):
a different kind of manufacturing.
So in those states that the Democrats need to win in 2020
isn't particularly popular necessarily.
I mean, you know, you know, I don't know if Rob Reiner is the
most successful messenger. No, no, I'm not.
I'm not. I'm not.
I understand that and I understand, listen, I can't tell
(21:16):
you how many times I get Lib tard, you know, on my Twitter
feed. I mean, I'm the Lib tard of the
world, you know, I, I get all that and I understand that, you
know, I'm toxic in those ways for those people.
But if anybody wants to spend any time actually talking and
talking about how policy can be affected, how it can be put
(21:37):
together, I can sit and talk with them.
As you became more political andmore of a political activist,
from being an actor to being a director to then spending a lot
of your own hard earned resources on the political
issues you cared about, yeah. How did that impact your
reputation in Hollywood? Well, I think it didn't.
It didn't make it any worse for me in Hollywood.
(22:00):
The only way it hurts me in Hollywood is when I put out
certain kinds of films, like Shock and Awe or films that I've
done recently. People hate me.
You know half the country hates me.
For you mean the red states? Yeah, they Hollywood, they don't
hate you. Hollywood, they don't hate me,
but they hate the fact that theydon't make as much money.
You know, Hollywood is also, youknow, driven by fans.
(22:23):
Do your movies suffer in red states because you made them?
Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. But the only thing that that's
good for me is I like making themovies.
And, you know, I'm now 72 years old, so I mean, I just want to
do the things I want to do. I enjoy doing it.
And some people will like them, others won't.
And you know I can't worry about.
(22:45):
That so the inverse is conservatives in Hollywood,
right? So liberals maybe have a hard
time in red states. And you know, if there were an
inverse of you, right A and a hugely successful actor and
director who then became a political activist, but on the
conservative side of issues in Hollywood, how would their
relationship with the industry have been different than yours?
(23:08):
Well, I, I think if they, you know, the bottom line is the
bottom line for, for Hollywood, which is financial.
So if that person can make a lotof money for those Hollywood
types, they'll feel they'd be fine with.
It Do you really think it's all they?
May not be liked in the community.
Right, that's what. I mean, I have, you know, I
have, you know, Jim, Jimmy Woodsis somebody.
(23:29):
I've worked with James Woods, and we're on completely opposite
sides of the political spectrum.But, you know, you'd have to ask
him if it hurts him in terms of getting hired.
But I think somebody who's making the films, the director,
producer, whatever, if they're making a lot of money, Hollywood
doesn't care. Do you think Hollywood is fair
to conservatives? Well, for the actor, maybe not,
(23:52):
maybe not because that's just, you know, you're just hiring
some, You can hire another actor.
But for the people who are in power to actually make the
films, I I don't think it matters.
Don't think it matters. As you look to 2020, what gives
you hope? Two things I think need to
happen. 1 is Donald Trump. He has to be defeated, but he
(24:14):
has to be defeated by a large margin.
And then we have to see him heldaccountable in some way other
than the ballot box. If it is determined that he that
he committed crimes, I'd like tosee him convicted because if
that doesn't happen, it it, it basically paves the way for
anybody to take stuff from foreign governments, hostile
(24:38):
foreign governments, to blind your pockets to do whatever it
is you want. And we don't want that in the
president. What you're saying is nobody
should be above the lines. That's.
That's right, that's right. You can't even.
This is way beyond Watergate. Do you ever get accused of Trump
Derangement Syndrome? What being deranged?
Or just being I mean you have tweeted more than 1000 times a
(25:00):
lot of. A lot all.
About Donald Trump, do you thinkyou've changed anybody's mind?
Who knows? I don't.
I don't believe I have changed many people's minds, but I
believe there's two aspects to this.
One is maybe you change a few people's minds around the
margin. Probably not.
What you do is you keep the people who are going to be
(25:23):
engaged, engaged to get out there and vote.
Rob Reiner, thank you for being here.
Thank you for being on fire. Thanks for having me.
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