Following the Fire

Following the Fire

Like many others, we (Steve & Nathan) are on a spiritual journey of deconstruction and reconstruction to find what God truly wants of us. Just like Israel followed the pillar of fire in the desert, we want to follow God wherever we are led. And just like Israel, we get lost a lot, we get it wrong a lot, but we're trying our best to follow and have a relationship with the Father. Join us on the journey! Join our Patreon ( - we would love your support! Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat! * Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp ( * Follow his Instagram ( * And listen on Spotify (


November 23, 2022 68 min

Steve talks to Josh Kaiser, former pastor turned deconstruction coach, about the different places people tend to end up at the end of their deconstruction / faith journeys (if there even is an end). Josh has a lot of wisdom and insight to this whole crazy process, so be sure to give this one your time.

  • Josh Kaiser’s TikTok: @theLocalHeretic
  • Origen
  • Jerome
  • Justin Matyr
  • Augustine
  • Mark Driscoll
  • Vivant Life Coaching
  • Brewery Vivant
  • Christi...
  • Mark as Played

    We read “The Watchman Decree” (and even hear a disturbing recitation of it) and discuss the implications of Christian Nationalism in America. What do we do about it? Can we do anything? Is maybe just a little bit okay? (Spoiler: No. No, it’s not)

  • Following the Fire Facebook Group
  • Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ
  • Free Dad Hugs shirt
  • Free Mom Hugs (official)
  • Christian Nationalism
  • Theocracy
  • Sharia Law
  • Book: “The Founding Myt...
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    The things we lift up and admire say a lot about us. Why, then, do so many evangelical Christians in America lift up the worst of us like Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and others. Has Christianity always been like this? Is there any way to redeem it?

  • Halloween was weirdly warm
  • Nathan can only handle “evangelical scary”
  • Steve has numbed himself to everything “scary”
  • Series: “Midnight Mass”
  • Film Genre: Elevated Horror
  • Film: “Midsommar”
  • Direct...
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    Embracing the F-Word: What is Feminism and how it can help us all be fully human

    Special guest Alison Buxton joins us again to discuss that OTHER dirty f-word: Feminism. She tells us what it is, what it isn’t, and why it matters. The 2 dudes on this podcast learned a LOT from Alison, including how feminism is connected to everything in ways we didn’t expect.

  • Friends don't have to use shortened names
  • Ms.
  • Book Club Episode: “Th...
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    Nathan and Steve discuss the age-old conundrum of why Christians don’t show more of the Fruit of the Spirit than non-Christians. Spoiler-Alert! They remain frustrated.

  • It’s dark outside, thus Nathan is tired
  • Steve has been sleeping!
  • Everyone should go to therapy (if possible)
  • Steve talks about his neurological diseases in episode 28
  • Nathan needs more "crunch"
  • Sleep makes everything better

  • LGBTQ+ Listener update

  • Conversion The...

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    Nathan and Steve go through the survey "The State of Theology" which was published recently and find that, not only are they both wildly heretical, but that the Ligonier group writes REALLY bad questions.

  • Steve and Nathan are both exhausted because they’re privileged
  • Nathan is overly concerned with the Trump Mar-a-Lago case
  • Pep Band is fun
  • Church is weird
  • “Do I Stay Christian” by Brian McLaren

  • The State of Theology Survey

  • Ligon...

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    The USA Supreme Court keeps throwing us curveballs, the folks in Trumpland are still doing the same-ol', everything's burning and most people just want to watch. How are we supposed to handle this kind of crazy and still, somehow, follow God?

  • It’s been a rough few weeks in the news
  • Nathan is nervous about his opinions
  • Nathan, however, has a lot of opinions about opinions
  • Somehow Steve & Nathan have become pro-choice
  • Both-s...
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    Love matters more… than what? How about EVERYTHING? Even being right? Yup. We had the privilege of speaking with Jared Byas (the author of “Love Matters More” and co-host of “The Bible for Normal People”) about his fantastic book. We discuss how to move from a faith focused on knowledge to one focused on love.

  • Book: “Love Matters More” by Jared Byas
  • Podcast: “The Bible For Normal People”
  • Book: “Genesis For Normal People” by Jared B...
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    What is Truth? : Turns out that facts aren't important as the truth

    Pilate asked Jesus a question that never got answered: "What is truth?" In this episode, Steve & Nathan discuss the kinds of truth, if it's relative, if it's meaningful, and how all of this fits in to our faith. Don't worry -- ALL of your questions will most definitely be answered in this episode. WARNING: This one is pretty heavy on ph...

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    This episode is an introduction to an ongoing series on the Lord's Prayer. This episode will take a very high-level view of the prayer and invites experience over information!

  • Scripture: Matthew 6:9-13
  • Jazz Standards and Improvisation over a simple tune: "Salt Peanuts" and "Blue Train"
  • Video: The universe is amazing
  • This mini-series is a chance for listeners to connect and contribute! Please submit your thoughts ...
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    Cursed?: What to do with the curses in Genesis 3

    When Adam and Eve ate the fruit in the Garden of Eden, God laid down several curses. For the serpent, the woman, and the man. But what do we DO with these curses? Are we supposed to perpetuate the ideas behind them, or move away from them? What’s this story teaching us, anyway? We also discuss the sad state of gun violence in the USA. We wish we had the answers.

    Gun Violence in Am...

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    We had a fantastic time hanging out with Brian McLaren to talk about his new book, "Do I Stay Christian?" – the follow-up to his book "Faith After Doubt". The book first answers with "No" then "Yes" and then discusses "How" we should live, regardless of the way we answer that question. It's a brave, humbling, and important book. READ IT!

  • Book: “Do I Stay Christian?” by Brian McLaren
  • Websi...
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    Generation Z may just be the people who save us all (but only if they want to). Steve & Nathan talk to Steve's kids, Hannah and Noah, to discuss their views of faith and how their parents' deconstruction has changed things for them. Includes a bonus Gen Z slang lesson you won't want to miss!

  • What's in the show is in the show
  • England doesn't exist
  • Nobody lives in New Mexico
  • TikTok: @chrispaulrainbows
  • Ladybir...
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    During the last five years of his life, best-selling spiritual writer Henri Nouwen became close to a traveling circus trapeze troupe, The Flying Rodleighs. He passed away before he could write the book about the spiritual lessons of his time with them, so his friend, Carolyn Whitney-Brown, picked up the pieces and completed “Flying, Falling, Catching”. In this episode we got to spend time with Carolyn talking about Henri, the book,...

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    Confusing informational trust with relational trust can lead to all kinds of trouble. Steve and Nathan talk about how seeing the cracks and seams in the bible can deal a blow to our faith, or how it can change it for the better. Is there more to the Bible than Biblical Scholarship and data? Is there more to the stars than atoms and molecules?

  • Rocks have been tumbled, results were underwhelming.
  • Steve is TikTok Famous
  • Nathan would ...
  • Mark as Played

    Blogger, speaker, and podcaster Kate Boyd joins us to discuss the process of deconstruction, how to approach it, and the importance of not doing it alone.

  • Find all of Kate's info here:
  • Wesleyan Quadrilateral
  • Film: "Shadowlands"
  • Our theme music is by Daniel Wheat!

  • Find more music and merch at his Bandcamp
  • Follow his Instagram
  • And listen on Spotify
  • Special Guest: Kate Boyd.

    Support Following the Fire

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    This is a rebroadcast for Transgender Day of Visibility. We got to talk with Natalie Drew – a devout Christian, pacifist, and kind of a theology nerd who also happens to be a trans woman. She shares her story with us of struggling with life before beginning her transition after having a wife and 2 kids, how her marriage weathered the storm, and she gives some great advice to other LGBTQ people in the church, as well as for the rest...

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    Episode 50 will be "Flying, Falling, Catching: An Unlikely Story of Finding Freedom" by Henri Nouwen & Carolyn Whitney-Brown - (buy it here)

    Support Following the Fire

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    Bible nerds unite! Nathan & Steve got to have a wonderful conversation with TikTok-famous Bible scholar Dan McClellan. Topics include the cognitive science of religion, the problem with univocality, the development of inerrancy, and… does God look like a cow?

  • Dan’s TikTok account
  • Dan’s dissertation: “The Cognitive Science of Religion and the Conceptualization of Deity in the Hebrew Bible”
  • Identity Politics
  • Data > Dogma Merch
  • ...
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    Daniel Wheat has been the official Following the Fire troubadour since day one. He's working on a new album and talks to Nathan and Steve about how the progression of his music and the development of his faith are so closely bound together.

  • Kickstarter for Daniel’s album
  • Daniel Wheat on Spotify
  • Update: The album has been launched and is available HERE
  • Special Guest: Daniel Wheat.

    Support Following the Fire

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