January 27, 2026 • 32 mins
What does it take to stay connected to your customers when scale and complexity threaten to pull you away?
In this episode, Jimmy Allen sits down with David Haines, Group CEO of Flora Food Group, to explore how leaders can keep their focus vertical - anchored in the customer and the frontline, while running global organizations. From his early days at Mars and Vodafone to leading GROHE and Flora, David shares stories of how listening, curiosity, and relevance shaped his approach to leadership. He shows why great strategy starts on the shop floor, how moments of truth can differentiate a brand, and why humility and honesty are the CEO’s most underrated tools.
We’re also joined by Iona Gaskell, Head of Artist Voice at Abubilla Music, who brings a creative perspective on building authenticity and resonance. Together, they unpack how purpose, simplicity, and connection fuel lasting growth, and share the secret tools for staying truly vertical: humanity, transparency, and care.
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Learn More:
Micro-battles and the Journey to Scale Insurgency - Article (https://www.bain.com/insights/micro-battles-and-the-journey-to-scale-insurgency/)
An Introduction to Micro-battles - Video (https://www.bain.com/insights/james-allen-an-introduction-to-micro-battles-video/)
On Building Communities - LinkedIn Post (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jamesallen-_as-part-of-the-%F0%9D%90%85%F0%9D%90%A8%F0%9D%90%AE%F0%9D%90%A7%F0%9D%90%9D%F0%9D%90%9E%F0%9D%90%AB%F0%9D%90%AC-%F0%9D%90%8C%F0%9D%90%9E%F0%9D%90%A7%F0%9D%90%AD-activity-7346480364657270785-SI3r/)
Flora Food Group Manifesto: Financial and ESG Summary 2023; Page 12-13) (https://www.florafoodgroup.com/-/media/project/upfield/corporate/upfield-corporate/supplier-centre/esg-centre-pdfs/esg-reports/current-years/financial-and-esg-summary-2023.pdf?rev=95bbb9295c0f4c1bb89fd58bc2b73b4e)
Flora Food Group Manifesto: Financial and ESG Summary 2022; Page 22-23 (https://www.florafoodgroup.com/-/media/project/upfield/corporate/upfield%20corporate/supplier%20centre/pdfs/upfield_annualsummary_esg_2022-1.pdf)
Bain & Company LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/bain-and-company/)
Bain & Company X (https://x.com/BainandCompany)
Jimmy Allen LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-allen-3442b/)
David Haines LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-j-haines)
Iona Gaskell LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/iona-gaskell/)
About Founders Mentality
Founder’s Mentality: The CEO Sessions is a leadership podcast hosted by executive advisor and bestselling author Jimmy Allen.
Each episode features candid conversations with top CEOs, from Audible to Walmart to AWS, as well as artists, comedians, and other unconventional thinkers. Together, they share the lessons that shaped their growth, the “aha” moments that redefined their work, and the surprising ways reinvention happens at every level.
Whether you’re a CEO, an aspiring leader, or simply curious about leadership, influence, and business at scale, this podcast will challenge and inspire you, one story at a time.
About the Host:
Jimmy Allen is an Advisory Partner at Bain & Company with over 35 years’ experience advising leading organizations. He’s the author of multiple best-selling books on growth and leadership and the host and founder of Bain’s Global CEO Community Forum. Jimmy is a regular speaker at global business events, including the World Economic Forum, and serves on the Botswana Economic Advisory Council. Outside of consulting, Jimmy started his own record label (Abubilla Music) in 2008 and supports Singing Wells, a project dedicated to preserving Kenyan village mu
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
- You've gotta run all the processes
and deal with all the shareholder issues,
the various stakeholder issue.
Of course, you know,that's part of the day job.
But I think it's reallydangerous for a CEO
when he loses sight
of what actually thecompany's trying to do.
- All too often, sizebecomes a disadvantage.
Outside, insurgents startto run circles around us.
Inside, the endless meetingsand PowerPoint slides,
(00:23):
well, they start to destroy our souls.
What about those pesky customers?
Well, they feel more like a distraction
from our urgent meetings orchange management seminars.
And of course, horizontalactivities matter,
because that is where thebenefits of scale come from,
but they're not enough.
We must also remain maniacally vertical.
We've got to keep our connectiondirectly with our customers
(00:46):
and the frontline that serves them.
How?
Well, perhaps the answer lies,
I don't know, in courtingplumbers, patching lightning,
or maybe even putting a man on the Moon.
(cheerful music)
I'm Jimmy Allen,
and this is the "Founder'sMentality: The CEO Sessions."
And today, we're speakingwith David Haines.
He's CEO of the Flora Food Group.
(01:07):
His career spanned acrossfounder-led companies like Mars,
fast tech startups likeVodafone in the early days,
and large companies like Koch.
He then moved into privateequity-backed companies,
first serving as CEO ofGrohe for almost a decade
before taking the helm at Flora.
Across industries and continents,
David has built brandsby staying vertical,
(01:29):
connected to customers in the front line.
And that mindset is somethingthat he's been working on,
well, since his teenagecareer as a cheesemaker.
- So I started my frontlinebelief, I suppose, pretty early.
When I was a young teenagerliving in Somerset,
I started working in supermarkets.
I worked on the shop floor of a factory
(01:50):
when I was a studentmaking cheese in Ilminster.
And of course, in myearly days in my career,
I was in sales and learned thepower of talking to customers
and what I would call real people.
But I think the definingmoments really came later,
you know, when I was in my mid-20s,
when I joined Mars, Incorporated
on the pet food side in Germany.
And I had the very, very good fortune
of being in a situation whichwas quite unique, right?
(02:11):
I joined in 1989,
and it was just as theBerlin Wall was coming down.
And so, suddenly, we had17 million new consumers
that we had to marketand sell our products to,
get distribution with.
Shops in East Germany were nota great big, large Walmart.
They were a little50-square-meter, if you were lucky,
mom-and-pop by and large.
So they couldn't take the whole range.
And so there was nopoint in us doing stuff
(02:32):
that worked in the West Germany.
We had to do stuff thatworked in East Germany.
And the only way you coulddo that was going over there
and talking to people, andall that to be organized,
we know which products we were gonna sell,
how are we gonna advertise?
I mean, people have beenseen advertising for years,
I suppose, but how are wegonna focus our distribution,
get our sales forcesthere, get it all built?
So it was like very pioneering
to have suddenly this country.
You know, it had the same name,
(02:53):
I was about to say same language,
but it wasn't evenexactly the same language,
and it's certainly adifferent cultural history.
So it was just, you know,through all of that.
And the other thing, right,was I was very fortunate
in those early days to meetthe owners of Mars, Inc,
John Mars and Forrest Mars.
I remember presenting toJohn as a 29-year-old.
Candidly, I was very nervous.I mean, he was the owner
of one of the largestcompanies in the world.
(03:13):
Given that we turned the salesaround of what we were doing,
my brand, which was calledChappi back in the day,
dog food, it went fine.
A few months later, Johncame back for another visit
and somehow asked him to go
for a walk through the car park with me.
And when I came back, my boss asked me,
"So what job did he offer you?"
And I don't know, we just got on.
And I think he also liked the, you know,
the enthusiastic frontline focus
(03:33):
of what we were tryingto do with his friends.
- What's interesting about those stories
is we often sit in boardrooms
and talk about how ourconsumers experience our brands.
And then there's thereality of in the frontline,
the actual experience is very often driven
not by what the brand owner wants,
but what the stores wants,
the recommender in between, et cetera.
(03:55):
You must have taken thatexperience to Vodafone.
- Well, when I got hired byJulian Horn-Smith and Christian,
you know, that my taskwas, global brand director,
and my task was to create aglobal brand within three years.
And we went about it andwe defined the positioning
and we worked out a visionof where we wanted to get to,
but we all had to dowith intangible assets.
So suddenly we had tomigrate these 250 brands
(04:17):
under the one Vodafone brand, right,
across basically all parts of the world.
And we had partner markets
and we had direct marketslike here in Germany.
So we created a vision for the brand,
what we wanted the brand to stand for.
We thought about the tools, but of course,
you know, you had to changethe name in the screen,
you had to change the service,
but you had to change the stores.
There were thousands of stores
branded other things across Europe,
(04:38):
and we had to think about things
like with the new phonesthat were coming out,
we had to put people in the stores
to get them to put five namesof your friends in the phone
'cause it seems inconceivable today.
But back then, justgetting your friends names
into the phone so you couldtalk with them spontaneously
wasn't available.
And Chris and Julian wereinspired, I believe, in many ways
(04:58):
to bring in someone withconsumer goods experience
to try and do this, to create this brand.
And we achieved what we wanted,
but we had some great tools, right?
We had a great simple idea.
Often the best marketing ideas,
or first of all, these global jobs,
you can only win with great ideas.
You don't win with great PowerPoint.
You have to have great ideas
based on a strong strategy and insight.
(05:19):
Ours was ask a simple human question.
How are you? How are you doing?
Because how you're doing
is the beginning of every conversation.
And that simple insight thatwe tried to then bring to life
through various, youknow, advertising tools,
the Dandy Warhols, we did the music,
went on to do a number one,
we sponsored FormulaOne, sponsored Ferrari.
We tried to make our brand
the most relevant brand of the day.
(05:40):
And I think people wouldsay back then it was,
we achieved our objective.
- I love this idea of relevanceand the pride you took,
and I totally agreethat at for its moment,
you know, at the beginningof the mobile industry,
Vodafone is probablythe most relevant brand.
And so I just even love togo back to that one idea.
(06:02):
How did you get a retailer
to help a consumer put infive names in a mobile phone?
- The retailers all werethose days interested
in selling handsets.
Their whole raison d'etrewas to sell more handsets.
And so the idea of havingmore modern handsets,
and I don't know if youremember when we came up
with this concept called Vodafone live!
(06:22):
It was the first flip phone with a Sharp.
And we pointed out tothese retailers, right,
the way you sell a new handsetis to offer new services,
services that then did not exist.
And it may seem crazy today in 2025
that the service was to put in five names
so you could talk a bit more,
but everything has tostart somewhere, right?
And it did start with that simple service.
(06:45):
So, you know, it was really exciting,
completely irrelevant in 2025.
So relevance to the consumeris all about the here and now.
As we say in the world of private equity,
we have to play the ball as it lies,
not how we'd like it to lie.
- If you're not the mostrelevant brand in the room,
(07:05):
you're invisible.
Incumbents lose to insurgentsbecause PowerPoint slides
become more important than customers.
They lose their obsession withthe full customer experience.
That's every retailer, everygatekeeper, every single hand
between you and the end customer.
What David did wassimple. He brought data.
(07:26):
He showed the retailers
that if they wanted to sellmore high margin handsets,
they needed to help consumers
use all the features on the phone.
One initiative, walk out talking.
Get the consumer to put the numbers
of friends and family intheir phone, and guess what?
They call friends andfamily from their phone.
He wasn't just shifting boxes,he was creating experiences.
(07:48):
And guess what? David didit again with Vodafone live!
And again, you have toremember how long ago this was.
Where combining Vodafone's network
with a shiny new Sharp handset
and a suite of servicestransformed the mobile industry.
The result, one and ahalf million customers
in seven months, and Vodafone went
(08:08):
from just another mobile operator
to the most relevant brand in mobile.
And that's vertical focus.
It isn't just thinkingabout how your product
or ad leaves your office.
It is caring deeply abouthow it hits the customer.
Now in 2004, David enteredthe private equity arena,
this time as CEO of Grohe, andarmed with a vertical mindset
(08:31):
and a frontline focus,he had a single goal,
revive that brand.
- Grohe was a great trademarkavailable mainly in Europe,
but it was not a great brand.
It didn't have a brand essencereally other than quality,
a little boring but reliable.
So that was a good platformoff which we could build,
(08:51):
so my predecessors had done a good job.
And we created what we used tocall real relevant innovation
that we thought consumerswould pay a premium for
'cause our big danger was theChinese and cheap imports,
which would copy PR designs very quickly.
As you are selling these products
primarily through what wewould call today an influencer,
(09:12):
an influencer could bea plumber, you know.
You floors, it's broke,you're having a new bathroom,
the plumber will come aroundand recommend something,
or an architect if you're doing it
with an architect or an interior designer,
all three influencers.
We tried to come up with this concept
called Moments Of Truth.
What was the point thatmade us different, special,
(09:33):
and better than the alternative
expressed in a consumer friendly way?
So, for example, the corebenefit as it turns out of Grohe
was the what they called the cartridge
in the middle of the tap,
which made it move verysoftly and very gently,
and by the way, also,when it's 30 years old.
(09:53):
This concept of SilkMove was born.
Another one that wehad in our thermostats,
we had cold water run around the outside
so that you didn't scold yourself
on the hot water on the inside.
The moment of truth was called CoolTouch.
And there was a conceptthat suddenly, very simply
gave the plumber, thearchitect, the designer a reason
(10:15):
to recommend our products to the consumer.
And hey, yes, Grohe may bea little bit more expensive,
but in the end you're getting
a true relevant consumer benefit.
- The story of Grohe is amazing.
I wanna pause for a momentto give people context.
There was a massiveinflux of Chinese goods
selling often at, you know,60, 40, 20% of the price
that a good Grohe product would sell.
(10:37):
And a lot of people from theoutside were advising you,
you know, "Buddy, you're atthe wrong end of this market."
It's about to commoditize,and the CEO has a choice.
I accept that or I fight it
and recommit to thedifferentiation, that's our product.
And I think Moments OfTruth is this great idea
(10:57):
that you introduce that said,
"Let's assert our right to be premium
and help the consumer understand why."
And I think it's so easyfor CEOs at that moment
to give up on their category.
- I went there with the mission.
The private equities industrywas renowned at the time
for the ability to cut costs.
But growth, I think it's fair
to say without offending anybody,
(11:18):
was not one of their strengths.
We wrote the manifestoto grow and cut costs,
and the only way we couldgrow was to reframe the brand,
give the consumer benefits
and reasons to pay thepremium, Moments Of Truth,
and do that over time with great design.
And that's kind of what we did.
And by the way, the plumber inthe end was easy to convince
because the plumber certainly in this
(11:39):
wasn't really interested inselling cheap Chinese stuff
because he or she knew six,nine, 12, 18 months later,
the consumer would be calling them back,
asking to break open theirwalls 'cause guess what?
Wasn't working or leaking.
And so actually in the end,there was a consumer insecurity
that we could, of course,reassure with a quality brand.
(12:01):
As I said, our predecessors did a good job
building a reputation for quality.
We brought design and Moments Of Truth
and reasons to believe into that.
And so we were able to build on that
and create this lifestylebrand which went truly global.
- What I love about David isthat he's a straight shooter.
Real growth doesn'tcome from cutting costs,
it comes from findingthose moments of truth
(12:22):
with the customer.
And someone else whoknew this incredibly well
was Adrian Gore, Founderand Group CEO of Discovery.
In the early '90s when Discovery mostly
was focused on health insurance,
South Africa faced acrisis, a lack of doctors,
high levels of disease,and strict regulation.
Gore's mission was clear,
make people healthier andsafeguard their lives.
(12:43):
But his master stroke wasto flip the insurance model.
Rather than just coveringillness, he set out to prevent it.
He launched Vitality,
a program that promotes healthier choices.
Its promise, if you get healthier
and make it cheaper for us to cover you,
we'll share the benefits.
Eat well, work out, get rewards.
(13:04):
This shared value model,
healthier customers,equal stronger profits,
became Discovery's growthengine, and it worked.
Discovery expanded beyond South Africa
and is now in more than40 markets worldwide.
That's vertical orientation.
Study what your customers are doing
and find out new ways to help.
(13:25):
By the way, my producer'sgonna kill me on this,
but I've gotta tell you guys a fun fact.
So about a decade ago, Iwas doing a founder's forum
in South Africa, and AdrianGore from Discovery was there,
but so too is Robbie Brozin,
the legendary founder of Nando's.
And it turns out both of them
had gone to the same primaryschool at the same time
and took the same bus, bus number four.
(13:48):
And in my calculation,
that bus driver has created more founders
than any other bus driver on earth.
Come on, prove me wrong.
You know, the stories of Vodafone grow
and Discovery are about the same thing.
Understand your customer needs
and make somethinginsanely relevant to them.
And that's not just alesson for telecom or TAPs.
Our next guest, Iona Gaskell
(14:09):
who develops artistidentities at Abubilla Music,
puts it even more starkly.
Before you can connect with fans,
you need to know exactly who you are.
It's a conversation.
At Vodafone, David beganwith a simple slogan,
how are you?
For Iona, the startingpoint's deeper, who are you?
- My role is head of artistvoice as well as outreach.
(14:32):
So that is both working with artists
when we first sign them to help them
and us figure out who thehell they are as an artist.
And the first step ofwhat we're trying to do
is build their, like, artist manifesto.
So we try and create akind of keystone document
that articulates a missionstatement and their values
(14:54):
and, you know, the characteristics
that feel most core to them,
that they want tocommunicate with the world,
and also the interestingfrictions within that personality
that are actually what makes them unique.
- You're talking aboutwhat are conflicts inherent
with them, or what did you mean by that?
(15:16):
- In that initial discovery phase,
there is often a pattern emerges
that there are a few conflicts
and tensions within their character.
If as a label we came along and said,
well, you can't be both a sort of,
like, really thoughtful,intellectual activist artist
and also a goofy, playful nerd.
(15:39):
And we might say you haveto pick one or the other,
smooth out those contradictions,
but in doing so, you flatten the surface
and you create somethingtoo smooth and impenetrable
that doesn't have theeccentricities and quirks
that actually make interestingpeople and interesting art.
- You know, in business we'd say,
where does the customer come
(16:01):
into all this brand development.
In your artist voice work, you know,
kind of where do the fans come in?
- Well, fans are obviouslyso important to artists,
but you can't make art via focus group.
What I think is really important
is starting with them figuringout so strongly who they are
(16:24):
and then what is the world
that they're trying tobuild around their art.
And it's into that world thatwe wanna invite people in
and find the people whoare going to love it there.
It probably means
that there are gonna beother people who hate it.
You don't want to build an artist world
that everybody thinks is kind of fine
(16:44):
because that way you are not going
to really find your peoplethat you really want
to be in dialogue with throughthe music that you're making.
- What has been your learning
once that artist actuallystarts creating music
and releasing it into that world?
- We have found that it tends to be
(17:04):
that you then need to start adjusting.
An example I can give is, anartist that I've worked with,
they had an idea ofeverything they put out
being incredibly highlycurated and intentional
and kinda high productionvalue, very glossy.
And so for the first set of releases,
(17:26):
that's what we went with.
We sort of planned those kindsof pieces of storytelling,
and they did okay,
but the thing that landedwas a three minute video
that they just recorded on their phone
when they were kind ofmad about something,
like they'd seen somethingthat pissed them off
and they just recorded a reaction it
(17:49):
that through which theirreal character came through.
It was speaking to these topics
that they really feltwere underrepresented,
but there was an immediacy in it
that is what really resonated with people.
So much work has to go intolaying that groundwork.
Then it's kind of like catching lightning.
You cannot predict the moment
that the lightning boltis going to strike.
(18:11):
You just have to be really prepared
so that when it happens you can respond
with your full authentic self.
And that is what will make that moment
be the catching lightningor the moment of truth.
That's what will make it be real.
- You know, it's that phraseagain, moments of truth.
For Iona, it's when an artist's music
(18:31):
not only reaches the audience
but truly resonates with that audience.
And for David it's when a productproves why it's different,
why it's special, why it'sbetter, and does so in a way
that the customer really understands.
Different worlds but same concept,
it's kind of the moment people get it.
But, you know, once you spark that moment,
the hardest act of leadershipis keeping it alive
(18:54):
because your success means you grow,
and that grow means the pole of horizontal
starts taking you outside the window
where you're looking at customers
and back into those internal meetings,
back into the endless seminars.
So the question for David was,
how do you stay vertical,connected to the customer
(19:14):
when the pole of complexity
keeps dragging leadership sideways?
- I've always worked since I'vebeen in leadership positions
with these manifestos,
and you've seen over theyears manifestos that grow.
You've seen them for FloraFood Group, various versions.
What is a manifesto?
A manifesto tries to say,what is our true vision?
(19:38):
What is our purpose? What is our mission?
What are our annual targets?What are our values?
What are we good at?What are we not good at?
And what are our key imperativesbroken down into actions?
I try and always ask the question,
what's the equivalent of theKennedy put a man on the Moon
and bring him back safelyby the end of the decade
when he went to NASA in 1963?
(19:58):
And so I've always tried to do that,
create a very clear purposefor our organizations,
and at the end, the consumeris always in the middle,
because what's business about?
It's about selling more stuffto more people more often
at the end of the day.
And so as a CEO, I thinkit's very important
that you stay on this vertical focus,
(20:19):
have the voice of your customer
in discussions that you're talking about.
And yes, of course, you'vegotta run all the processes
and deal with all the shareholder issues,
the various stakeholder issues.
Of course, that's part of the day job.
But I think it's reallydangerous for a CEO
when he loses sight
of what actually thecompanies are trying to do.
I pilgrimage over regularlyto Bentonville in Arkansas
to talk to the guys at Walmart
(20:40):
or talk to the German retailers.
I was down in Colognerecently talking to Ava.
Yes, of course, I still do that
because I learn so much, right?
And we invite our customers
to our customer experience center
where we show them our culinary products
and we try and point outhow relevant they are
and how this is not justa simple then tap company,
now margarine company.
What we're offering issolutions to problems
(21:01):
with Moments Of Truth,with relevant brands,
with relevant products,with relevant ideas.
And so there is a red threadthrough these manifestos
of relevance, purpose, vision, mission.
I'm a big believer in values.
And again, at Flora Food Group,
you know, we have three values,
performance, passion, and care.
Clearly we're aperformance-driven organization,
(21:23):
but we're also a caring organization.
You know, we saw thathow important that was
through COVID and the like.
And I think as you get older,
you learn a bit, right, hopefully.
When you hang around good people,
if you're not stupid, youdo pick up the odd thing.
- What do you want thenew 25-year-old David
to get from the manifesto?
- If I think back to the mid-1980s,
(21:43):
I was inspired by John Forrest Mars,
and in fact many of the other Mars leaders
with whom I'm still friends.
And why was I inspired?
I believed in what thecompany was trying to do,
I believed in their values,
I believed in the bigger picture.
And if my manifestos, ourFlora Food Group manifestos
can deliver the same inspiration
with where the company's trying to go,
with what we're trying to do,
(22:05):
if I can inspire young men and women
to sign up and comewith us on that journey
and they can find their homein that environment, right,
which is a performance-driven one.
And let's be clear about it.
A performance-driven organizationis not for everybody.
And by the way, I'm alsovery clear about that.
It's not a judgment of someone
if they don't want to go for it,
but, you know, frankly, we like people
(22:26):
who wanna play the topof the champions league,
and if you don't want to, that's fine,
but please go and playsomewhere else, that's okay.
- How do you connect withthose young men and women
that you're trying to inspire?
What's the process bywhich you talk to them?
- Well, still I try andwalk the talk, right?
(22:46):
I mean, I still visit shops
and I still do what iscalled a red is good call
where the people down in the organization
are invited with myselfand our HR director.
Once every quarter,there's groups of eight
to tell us what they think
about the company that's not working.
We're not interested inthe stuff that is working.
That's easy. But what would they improve?
(23:08):
What's their advice? Andit's quite hard, right?
'Cause a lot of peopledon't wanna open up,
they don't wanna bring bad news.
But I mean, I'm very fortunate
to work with an outstandingchief financial officer
at Flora, Florence Naviner.
And she's always on thecase and requesting,
"Hey, you know, badnews does not age well.
(23:28):
Let's get it out on the table.
We got a chance of fixing it."
And so we have all the formal stuff,
but I think the informal stuff
where you just talk to peopleis even more important.
By the way, having two kids, you know,
are in their early 30s andin their business world
doesn't do any harm either
and get their pretty honest feedback,
which they both loveto give me frequently.
- I bet. Yeah.
- So stay connected,right, and stay humble.
There's one thing over the years I suppose
(23:52):
is to stay down to earth.
Stay humble, stay on theground, talk to people,
stay normal, and create an environment
where people are okayto tell you the truth.
- So David, this vertical orientation,
this time that you'recommitting these red is good,
most CEOs will also say,"God, if I only had the time
and energy to do that stuff."
(24:13):
So what gets in the way ofyour vertical orientation?
What do you have to fight?
- You have to fight the calendar,
you know, where everyone'strying to get in the calendar
of all the various stakeholdersthat I'm involved with.
I mean, as you mentioned,
I've been CEO now in privateequity finance organizations.
The shareholder managementis a big part of it in PE,
(24:36):
setting expectations, reporting,
discussing issues, getting advice.
I'm also very fortunate I'vegot an outstanding chairman
and a gentleman called Sir Roger Carr,
a veteran of British industry.
There's the shareholder management,
there's the other stakeholders,
the organizational processes,this permanent reviews,
but they are all part of the day job.
But what I do is try and spend time,
(24:58):
I think you would call itdeep work in Bain-speak,
thinking about how we stay true north
of what we're trying to do,
this vertical thing, consumer orientation.
And for that I often get accused
of being the optimist in the room, right?
But I think you have to in the CEO role,
where are we trying togo? What's our vision?
What are we gonna do in thenext three months, six months?
But what are we gonna do in three years?
(25:19):
Because, you know, if I don'tdo that, then it won't happen
'cause everyone else is getting consumed
by delivering this week's, this month's,
next quarter's numbers,which is right by the way.
I mean, that's our job.
And we had a world globalcall only yesterday
with our top 100 leaders.
And there I was preaching, of course,
deliver our FCO 6 for 2025,
'cause now's the time, you haveto remind everybody of that,
(25:40):
now is not the timefor fancy vision stuff.
You know, there's also, let's be honest,
there's a time and a place for everything.
So in the end, what are the crown jewels
of an organization that I work in?
I always think there are two.
There's of course the brands
which you inherit inwhatever state they are
and you try and leave whenever you leave
in a better state when you pass the baton.
(26:01):
But the older I get, the more you realize
it's actually all aboutthe other crown jewel
as well the people.
And I know this is an oldcliche, so forgive me for it.
Surround yourself with outstanding people.
And I have an optimisticdisposition, thank God.
I didn't choose it. It kind of happened.
And I do think in these roles,
'cause they are, the otherthing I would say, right,
these CEO roles, and I tryand point it out at home,
(26:24):
they are seriously lonelier.
- Why is it lonely?
- You know, you're making tough decisions
that affect thousands ofpeoples lives at times.
In Grohe the restructuring
that we had to do when we walked in.
We had to let a lot of people go.
It was front page news in the German press
for the whole locust debate, you know.
It's pretty lonely when you death threats,
(26:44):
when you have a book written about you,
which is still published,
by the way, in Germany to have you killed.
That's pretty lonely.
When you're dealing withvery deep personal issues
of your colleagues
that you know about intheir personal lives.
Over the years together we'veseen many tough situations,
whether it's health issues,personal issues, career issues,
and to stay focused andoptimistic in the organization
(27:06):
when everyone's lookingat you all the time
and looking not at you,but, you know, what you do,
what you say, how you act, how you behave.
You know, you're always on.
That's where you need to besurrounded by also at home
and in your personal life
hobbies, activities, and an infrastructure
that has nothing to dowith your business card.
(27:29):
- I think this is the most underrated
yet vital trait of great leaders.
It's the courage to beauthentic, to be vulnerable,
to talk about the things thatno one else dares mention.
David said it. The CEO job can be lonely.
I mean, you know a lot ofthings you can't share.
There are a couple decisionsthat only you can make.
And everybody wants your energy,
(27:49):
but very few feel it's importantto give you their energy.
You know, I love thatDavid walks the talk.
It's his openness and honesty
that then can sparkreal adult conversations
in those red is good meetings
and it's what turns a manifesto,
which could so easilyjust be words on a wall,
into something people can live by.
(28:09):
And if you want more stories
of CEOs really telling it like it is,
check the link in our show notes.
And now back to David withsome rapid fire questions.
What brings you energy?
- I love to build brands.
Take a brand, whateverstate it's in, sort it out,
move it forward, and get it healthy.
I love it. It's a real kick.
- So what drains you of energy?
(28:30):
- Yeah, shareholders
who have what I call masterof the universe-itis.
- I know what you're talking about.
Do you have energy vampires in your work?
- You always have some energy vampires,
and it's often difficult to find them,
but you gotta find them.
And I use a simple methodology,
what I call a Skill Will Matrix.
HR gang hate it 'cause theythink it's far too simple,
(28:53):
but it's, you know, skill onthe X-axis, will on the Y-axis,
and just plot where everybody is.
And clearly bottom lefthand corner, frankly,
no point in having a long conversation,
deal with high skill, butlow will serious conversation
and actually the most dangerous.
So you either need toget them on board or out.
Low skill, high will, train.
High skill, high will, let 'em loose.
(29:14):
- What's the best adviceyou've ever received?
- It's a simple one,given to me by a French,
very successful businessmanwhen I was 28 years old
and was having my first child.
Take your family outfor lunch every Sunday.
Your kids can't run off to the bedroom
when you try and have a conversation.
Your wife doesn't haveto spend the morning
or you have to have done,have to spend the morning
in the kitchen cooking and youactually get some good food.
(29:36):
- Okay, let's recap someof our key takeaways
from today's episode.
- You don't win with great PowerPoint.
You have to have great ideas
based on a strong strategy and insight.
Ours was ask a simple humanquestion. How are you?
That simple insight that wetried to then bring to life
through various, youknow, advertising tools,
(29:56):
we tried to make our brand
the most relevant brand of the day.
- No matter how big the organization,
great leadership stillcomes down to one thing,
never losing sight of the customer.
I mean, do you measure your day in slides
or conversations with customers
and the people that serve them?
- The moment of truthwas called CoolTouch.
(30:17):
And it was a concept that suddenly,
very simply gave the plumber,the architect, the designer
a reason to recommend ourproducts to the consumer.
- You know, you've gotta winacross the whole ecosystem.
Guess what?
Doesn't actually matter howideas leave your office.
What matters is how they hit the customer.
(30:39):
- I've always tried to do that,
create a very clear purposefor our organizations.
And at the end, the consumeris always in the middle,
because what's business about?
It's about selling more stuffto more people more often
at the end of the day.
- To stay vertical, Davidkeeps returning to the mission,
to the manifesto, to therelentless customer focus.
(31:00):
It's connection with the frontline,
but it's also how you act every day.
Are you humble? Are you normal?
And do you create an environment
where people are empoweredto tell the truth?
You know, it's easy at the beginning.
Every new customer is a huge victory.
Every sale is a reason to celebrate.
But as our businesses scale,
these events aggregate into numbers.
(31:22):
The millions of conversations
that lead to millions of dollars in sales,
well, they happily live in spreadsheets
and stop echoing in our hallways.
You know, your success is theresult of you being relevant,
of being edgy, ofmattering to the customer
more than any other offer.
But it's that very successwhich creates complacency
(31:44):
and a slow drift towards irrelevancy.
So how does a company keep its edge?
And how do you find theenergy to stay relevant
year after year after year?
Well, in our next episode,we're gonna talk to Pedro Arnt.
He's CEO of dLocal andformer CFO of Mercado Libre.
And he's gonna be talkingto us about what it means
(32:05):
to stay relevant througha period of hypergrowth.
So we'll see you in the next episode,
and until then, stay curious.
(upbeat music)
- You've gotta run all the processes
and deal with all the shareholder issues,
the various stakeholder issue.
Of course, you know,that's part of the day job.
But I think it's reallydangerous for a CEO
when he loses sight
of what actually thecompany's trying to do.
- All too often, sizebecomes a disadvantage.
Outside, insurgents startto run circles around us.
Inside, the endless meetingsand PowerPoint slides,
(00:23):
well, they start to destroy our souls.
What about those pesky customers?
Well, they feel more like a distraction
from our urgent meetings orchange management seminars.
And of course, horizontalactivities matter,
because that is where thebenefits of scale come from,
but they're not enough.
We must also remain maniacally vertical.
We've got to keep our connectiondirectly with our customers
(00:46):
and the frontline that serves them.
How?
Well, perhaps the answer lies,
I don't know, in courtingplumbers, patching lightning,
or maybe even putting a man on the Moon.
(cheerful music)
I'm Jimmy Allen,
and this is the "Founder'sMentality: The CEO Sessions."
And today, we're speakingwith David Haines.
He's CEO of the Flora Food Group.
(01:07):
His career spanned acrossfounder-led companies like Mars,
fast tech startups likeVodafone in the early days,
and large companies like Koch.
He then moved into privateequity-backed companies,
first serving as CEO ofGrohe for almost a decade
before taking the helm at Flora.
Across industries and continents,
David has built brandsby staying vertical,
(01:29):
connected to customers in the front line.
And that mindset is somethingthat he's been working on,
well, since his teenagecareer as a cheesemaker.
- So I started my frontlinebelief, I suppose, pretty early.
When I was a young teenagerliving in Somerset,
I started working in supermarkets.
I worked on the shop floor of a factory
(01:50):
when I was a studentmaking cheese in Ilminster.
And of course, in myearly days in my career,
I was in sales and learned thepower of talking to customers
and what I would call real people.
But I think the definingmoments really came later,
you know, when I was in my mid-20s,
when I joined Mars, Incorporated
on the pet food side in Germany.
And I had the very, very good fortune
of being in a situation whichwas quite unique, right?
(02:11):
I joined in 1989,
and it was just as theBerlin Wall was coming down.
And so, suddenly, we had17 million new consumers
that we had to marketand sell our products to,
get distribution with.
Shops in East Germany were nota great big, large Walmart.
They were a little50-square-meter, if you were lucky,
mom-and-pop by and large.
So they couldn't take the whole range.
And so there was nopoint in us doing stuff
(02:32):
that worked in the West Germany.
We had to do stuff thatworked in East Germany.
And the only way you coulddo that was going over there
and talking to people, andall that to be organized,
we know which products we were gonna sell,
how are we gonna advertise?
I mean, people have beenseen advertising for years,
I suppose, but how are wegonna focus our distribution,
get our sales forcesthere, get it all built?
So it was like very pioneering
to have suddenly this country.
You know, it had the same name,
(02:53):
I was about to say same language,
but it wasn't evenexactly the same language,
and it's certainly adifferent cultural history.
So it was just, you know,through all of that.
And the other thing, right,was I was very fortunate
in those early days to meetthe owners of Mars, Inc,
John Mars and Forrest Mars.
I remember presenting toJohn as a 29-year-old.
Candidly, I was very nervous.I mean, he was the owner
of one of the largestcompanies in the world.
(03:13):
Given that we turned the salesaround of what we were doing,
my brand, which was calledChappi back in the day,
dog food, it went fine.
A few months later, Johncame back for another visit
and somehow asked him to go
for a walk through the car park with me.
And when I came back, my boss asked me,
"So what job did he offer you?"
And I don't know, we just got on.
And I think he also liked the, you know,
the enthusiastic frontline focus
(03:33):
of what we were tryingto do with his friends.
- What's interesting about those stories
is we often sit in boardrooms
and talk about how ourconsumers experience our brands.
And then there's thereality of in the frontline,
the actual experience is very often driven
not by what the brand owner wants,
but what the stores wants,
the recommender in between, et cetera.
(03:55):
You must have taken thatexperience to Vodafone.
- Well, when I got hired byJulian Horn-Smith and Christian,
you know, that my taskwas, global brand director,
and my task was to create aglobal brand within three years.
And we went about it andwe defined the positioning
and we worked out a visionof where we wanted to get to,
but we all had to dowith intangible assets.
So suddenly we had tomigrate these 250 brands
(04:17):
under the one Vodafone brand, right,
across basically all parts of the world.
And we had partner markets
and we had direct marketslike here in Germany.
So we created a vision for the brand,
what we wanted the brand to stand for.
We thought about the tools, but of course,
you know, you had to changethe name in the screen,
you had to change the service,
but you had to change the stores.
There were thousands of stores
branded other things across Europe,
(04:38):
and we had to think about things
like with the new phonesthat were coming out,
we had to put people in the stores
to get them to put five namesof your friends in the phone
'cause it seems inconceivable today.
But back then, justgetting your friends names
into the phone so you couldtalk with them spontaneously
wasn't available.
And Chris and Julian wereinspired, I believe, in many ways
(04:58):
to bring in someone withconsumer goods experience
to try and do this, to create this brand.
And we achieved what we wanted,
but we had some great tools, right?
We had a great simple idea.
Often the best marketing ideas,
or first of all, these global jobs,
you can only win with great ideas.
You don't win with great PowerPoint.
You have to have great ideas
based on a strong strategy and insight.
(05:19):
Ours was ask a simple human question.
How are you? How are you doing?
Because how you're doing
is the beginning of every conversation.
And that simple insight thatwe tried to then bring to life
through various, youknow, advertising tools,
the Dandy Warhols, we did the music,
went on to do a number one,
we sponsored FormulaOne, sponsored Ferrari.
We tried to make our brand
the most relevant brand of the day.
(05:40):
And I think people wouldsay back then it was,
we achieved our objective.
- I love this idea of relevanceand the pride you took,
and I totally agreethat at for its moment,
you know, at the beginningof the mobile industry,
Vodafone is probablythe most relevant brand.
And so I just even love togo back to that one idea.
(06:02):
How did you get a retailer
to help a consumer put infive names in a mobile phone?
- The retailers all werethose days interested
in selling handsets.
Their whole raison d'etrewas to sell more handsets.
And so the idea of havingmore modern handsets,
and I don't know if youremember when we came up
with this concept called Vodafone live!
(06:22):
It was the first flip phone with a Sharp.
And we pointed out tothese retailers, right,
the way you sell a new handsetis to offer new services,
services that then did not exist.
And it may seem crazy today in 2025
that the service was to put in five names
so you could talk a bit more,
but everything has tostart somewhere, right?
And it did start with that simple service.
(06:45):
So, you know, it was really exciting,
completely irrelevant in 2025.
So relevance to the consumeris all about the here and now.
As we say in the world of private equity,
we have to play the ball as it lies,
not how we'd like it to lie.
- If you're not the mostrelevant brand in the room,
(07:05):
you're invisible.
Incumbents lose to insurgentsbecause PowerPoint slides
become more important than customers.
They lose their obsession withthe full customer experience.
That's every retailer, everygatekeeper, every single hand
between you and the end customer.
What David did wassimple. He brought data.
(07:26):
He showed the retailers
that if they wanted to sellmore high margin handsets,
they needed to help consumers
use all the features on the phone.
One initiative, walk out talking.
Get the consumer to put the numbers
of friends and family intheir phone, and guess what?
They call friends andfamily from their phone.
He wasn't just shifting boxes,he was creating experiences.
(07:48):
And guess what? David didit again with Vodafone live!
And again, you have toremember how long ago this was.
Where combining Vodafone's network
with a shiny new Sharp handset
and a suite of servicestransformed the mobile industry.
The result, one and ahalf million customers
in seven months, and Vodafone went
(08:08):
from just another mobile operator
to the most relevant brand in mobile.
And that's vertical focus.
It isn't just thinkingabout how your product
or ad leaves your office.
It is caring deeply abouthow it hits the customer.
Now in 2004, David enteredthe private equity arena,
this time as CEO of Grohe, andarmed with a vertical mindset
(08:31):
and a frontline focus,he had a single goal,
revive that brand.
- Grohe was a great trademarkavailable mainly in Europe,
but it was not a great brand.
It didn't have a brand essencereally other than quality,
a little boring but reliable.
So that was a good platformoff which we could build,
(08:51):
so my predecessors had done a good job.
And we created what we used tocall real relevant innovation
that we thought consumerswould pay a premium for
'cause our big danger was theChinese and cheap imports,
which would copy PR designs very quickly.
As you are selling these products
primarily through what wewould call today an influencer,
(09:12):
an influencer could bea plumber, you know.
You floors, it's broke,you're having a new bathroom,
the plumber will come aroundand recommend something,
or an architect if you're doing it
with an architect or an interior designer,
all three influencers.
We tried to come up with this concept
called Moments Of Truth.
What was the point thatmade us different, special,
(09:33):
and better than the alternative
expressed in a consumer friendly way?
So, for example, the corebenefit as it turns out of Grohe
was the what they called the cartridge
in the middle of the tap,
which made it move verysoftly and very gently,
and by the way, also,when it's 30 years old.
(09:53):
This concept of SilkMove was born.
Another one that wehad in our thermostats,
we had cold water run around the outside
so that you didn't scold yourself
on the hot water on the inside.
The moment of truth was called CoolTouch.
And there was a conceptthat suddenly, very simply
gave the plumber, thearchitect, the designer a reason
(10:15):
to recommend our products to the consumer.
And hey, yes, Grohe may bea little bit more expensive,
but in the end you're getting
a true relevant consumer benefit.
- The story of Grohe is amazing.
I wanna pause for a momentto give people context.
There was a massiveinflux of Chinese goods
selling often at, you know,60, 40, 20% of the price
that a good Grohe product would sell.
(10:37):
And a lot of people from theoutside were advising you,
you know, "Buddy, you're atthe wrong end of this market."
It's about to commoditize,and the CEO has a choice.
I accept that or I fight it
and recommit to thedifferentiation, that's our product.
And I think Moments OfTruth is this great idea
(10:57):
that you introduce that said,
"Let's assert our right to be premium
and help the consumer understand why."
And I think it's so easyfor CEOs at that moment
to give up on their category.
- I went there with the mission.
The private equities industrywas renowned at the time
for the ability to cut costs.
But growth, I think it's fair
to say without offending anybody,
(11:18):
was not one of their strengths.
We wrote the manifestoto grow and cut costs,
and the only way we couldgrow was to reframe the brand,
give the consumer benefits
and reasons to pay thepremium, Moments Of Truth,
and do that over time with great design.
And that's kind of what we did.
And by the way, the plumber inthe end was easy to convince
because the plumber certainly in this
(11:39):
wasn't really interested inselling cheap Chinese stuff
because he or she knew six,nine, 12, 18 months later,
the consumer would be calling them back,
asking to break open theirwalls 'cause guess what?
Wasn't working or leaking.
And so actually in the end,there was a consumer insecurity
that we could, of course,reassure with a quality brand.
(12:01):
As I said, our predecessors did a good job
building a reputation for quality.
We brought design and Moments Of Truth
and reasons to believe into that.
And so we were able to build on that
and create this lifestylebrand which went truly global.
- What I love about David isthat he's a straight shooter.
Real growth doesn'tcome from cutting costs,
it comes from findingthose moments of truth
(12:22):
with the customer.
And someone else whoknew this incredibly well
was Adrian Gore, Founderand Group CEO of Discovery.
In the early '90s when Discovery mostly
was focused on health insurance,
South Africa faced acrisis, a lack of doctors,
high levels of disease,and strict regulation.
Gore's mission was clear,
make people healthier andsafeguard their lives.
(12:43):
But his master stroke wasto flip the insurance model.
Rather than just coveringillness, he set out to prevent it.
He launched Vitality,
a program that promotes healthier choices.
Its promise, if you get healthier
and make it cheaper for us to cover you,
we'll share the benefits.
Eat well, work out, get rewards.
(13:04):
This shared value model,
healthier customers,equal stronger profits,
became Discovery's growthengine, and it worked.
Discovery expanded beyond South Africa
and is now in more than40 markets worldwide.
That's vertical orientation.
Study what your customers are doing
and find out new ways to help.
(13:25):
By the way, my producer'sgonna kill me on this,
but I've gotta tell you guys a fun fact.
So about a decade ago, Iwas doing a founder's forum
in South Africa, and AdrianGore from Discovery was there,
but so too is Robbie Brozin,
the legendary founder of Nando's.
And it turns out both of them
had gone to the same primaryschool at the same time
and took the same bus, bus number four.
(13:48):
And in my calculation,
that bus driver has created more founders
than any other bus driver on earth.
Come on, prove me wrong.
You know, the stories of Vodafone grow
and Discovery are about the same thing.
Understand your customer needs
and make somethinginsanely relevant to them.
And that's not just alesson for telecom or TAPs.
Our next guest, Iona Gaskell
(14:09):
who develops artistidentities at Abubilla Music,
puts it even more starkly.
Before you can connect with fans,
you need to know exactly who you are.
It's a conversation.
At Vodafone, David beganwith a simple slogan,
how are you?
For Iona, the startingpoint's deeper, who are you?
- My role is head of artistvoice as well as outreach.
(14:32):
So that is both working with artists
when we first sign them to help them
and us figure out who thehell they are as an artist.
And the first step ofwhat we're trying to do
is build their, like, artist manifesto.
So we try and create akind of keystone document
that articulates a missionstatement and their values
(14:54):
and, you know, the characteristics
that feel most core to them,
that they want tocommunicate with the world,
and also the interestingfrictions within that personality
that are actually what makes them unique.
- You're talking aboutwhat are conflicts inherent
with them, or what did you mean by that?
(15:16):
- In that initial discovery phase,
there is often a pattern emerges
that there are a few conflicts
and tensions within their character.
If as a label we came along and said,
well, you can't be both a sort of,
like, really thoughtful,intellectual activist artist
and also a goofy, playful nerd.
(15:39):
And we might say you haveto pick one or the other,
smooth out those contradictions,
but in doing so, you flatten the surface
and you create somethingtoo smooth and impenetrable
that doesn't have theeccentricities and quirks
that actually make interestingpeople and interesting art.
- You know, in business we'd say,
where does the customer come
(16:01):
into all this brand development.
In your artist voice work, you know,
kind of where do the fans come in?
- Well, fans are obviouslyso important to artists,
but you can't make art via focus group.
What I think is really important
is starting with them figuringout so strongly who they are
(16:24):
and then what is the world
that they're trying tobuild around their art.
And it's into that world thatwe wanna invite people in
and find the people whoare going to love it there.
It probably means
that there are gonna beother people who hate it.
You don't want to build an artist world
that everybody thinks is kind of fine
(16:44):
because that way you are not going
to really find your peoplethat you really want
to be in dialogue with throughthe music that you're making.
- What has been your learning
once that artist actuallystarts creating music
and releasing it into that world?
- We have found that it tends to be
(17:04):
that you then need to start adjusting.
An example I can give is, anartist that I've worked with,
they had an idea ofeverything they put out
being incredibly highlycurated and intentional
and kinda high productionvalue, very glossy.
And so for the first set of releases,
(17:26):
that's what we went with.
We sort of planned those kindsof pieces of storytelling,
and they did okay,
but the thing that landedwas a three minute video
that they just recorded on their phone
when they were kind ofmad about something,
like they'd seen somethingthat pissed them off
and they just recorded a reaction it
(17:49):
that through which theirreal character came through.
It was speaking to these topics
that they really feltwere underrepresented,
but there was an immediacy in it
that is what really resonated with people.
So much work has to go intolaying that groundwork.
Then it's kind of like catching lightning.
You cannot predict the moment
that the lightning boltis going to strike.
(18:11):
You just have to be really prepared
so that when it happens you can respond
with your full authentic self.
And that is what will make that moment
be the catching lightningor the moment of truth.
That's what will make it be real.
- You know, it's that phraseagain, moments of truth.
For Iona, it's when an artist's music
(18:31):
not only reaches the audience
but truly resonates with that audience.
And for David it's when a productproves why it's different,
why it's special, why it'sbetter, and does so in a way
that the customer really understands.
Different worlds but same concept,
it's kind of the moment people get it.
But, you know, once you spark that moment,
the hardest act of leadershipis keeping it alive
(18:54):
because your success means you grow,
and that grow means the pole of horizontal
starts taking you outside the window
where you're looking at customers
and back into those internal meetings,
back into the endless seminars.
So the question for David was,
how do you stay vertical,connected to the customer
(19:14):
when the pole of complexity
keeps dragging leadership sideways?
- I've always worked since I'vebeen in leadership positions
with these manifestos,
and you've seen over theyears manifestos that grow.
You've seen them for FloraFood Group, various versions.
What is a manifesto?
A manifesto tries to say,what is our true vision?
(19:38):
What is our purpose? What is our mission?
What are our annual targets?What are our values?
What are we good at?What are we not good at?
And what are our key imperativesbroken down into actions?
I try and always ask the question,
what's the equivalent of theKennedy put a man on the Moon
and bring him back safelyby the end of the decade
when he went to NASA in 1963?
(19:58):
And so I've always tried to do that,
create a very clear purposefor our organizations,
and at the end, the consumeris always in the middle,
because what's business about?
It's about selling more stuffto more people more often
at the end of the day.
And so as a CEO, I thinkit's very important
that you stay on this vertical focus,
(20:19):
have the voice of your customer
in discussions that you're talking about.
And yes, of course, you'vegotta run all the processes
and deal with all the shareholder issues,
the various stakeholder issues.
Of course, that's part of the day job.
But I think it's reallydangerous for a CEO
when he loses sight
of what actually thecompanies are trying to do.
I pilgrimage over regularlyto Bentonville in Arkansas
to talk to the guys at Walmart
(20:40):
or talk to the German retailers.
I was down in Colognerecently talking to Ava.
Yes, of course, I still do that
because I learn so much, right?
And we invite our customers
to our customer experience center
where we show them our culinary products
and we try and point outhow relevant they are
and how this is not justa simple then tap company,
now margarine company.
What we're offering issolutions to problems
(21:01):
with Moments Of Truth,with relevant brands,
with relevant products,with relevant ideas.
And so there is a red threadthrough these manifestos
of relevance, purpose, vision, mission.
I'm a big believer in values.
And again, at Flora Food Group,
you know, we have three values,
performance, passion, and care.
Clearly we're aperformance-driven organization,
(21:23):
but we're also a caring organization.
You know, we saw thathow important that was
through COVID and the like.
And I think as you get older,
you learn a bit, right, hopefully.
When you hang around good people,
if you're not stupid, youdo pick up the odd thing.
- What do you want thenew 25-year-old David
to get from the manifesto?
- If I think back to the mid-1980s,
(21:43):
I was inspired by John Forrest Mars,
and in fact many of the other Mars leaders
with whom I'm still friends.
And why was I inspired?
I believed in what thecompany was trying to do,
I believed in their values,
I believed in the bigger picture.
And if my manifestos, ourFlora Food Group manifestos
can deliver the same inspiration
with where the company's trying to go,
with what we're trying to do,
(22:05):
if I can inspire young men and women
to sign up and comewith us on that journey
and they can find their homein that environment, right,
which is a performance-driven one.
And let's be clear about it.
A performance-driven organizationis not for everybody.
And by the way, I'm alsovery clear about that.
It's not a judgment of someone
if they don't want to go for it,
but, you know, frankly, we like people
(22:26):
who wanna play the topof the champions league,
and if you don't want to, that's fine,
but please go and playsomewhere else, that's okay.
- How do you connect withthose young men and women
that you're trying to inspire?
What's the process bywhich you talk to them?
- Well, still I try andwalk the talk, right?
(22:46):
I mean, I still visit shops
and I still do what iscalled a red is good call
where the people down in the organization
are invited with myselfand our HR director.
Once every quarter,there's groups of eight
to tell us what they think
about the company that's not working.
We're not interested inthe stuff that is working.
That's easy. But what would they improve?
(23:08):
What's their advice? Andit's quite hard, right?
'Cause a lot of peopledon't wanna open up,
they don't wanna bring bad news.
But I mean, I'm very fortunate
to work with an outstandingchief financial officer
at Flora, Florence Naviner.
And she's always on thecase and requesting,
"Hey, you know, badnews does not age well.
(23:28):
Let's get it out on the table.
We got a chance of fixing it."
And so we have all the formal stuff,
but I think the informal stuff
where you just talk to peopleis even more important.
By the way, having two kids, you know,
are in their early 30s andin their business world
doesn't do any harm either
and get their pretty honest feedback,
which they both loveto give me frequently.
- I bet. Yeah.
- So stay connected,right, and stay humble.
There's one thing over the years I suppose
(23:52):
is to stay down to earth.
Stay humble, stay on theground, talk to people,
stay normal, and create an environment
where people are okayto tell you the truth.
- So David, this vertical orientation,
this time that you'recommitting these red is good,
most CEOs will also say,"God, if I only had the time
and energy to do that stuff."
(24:13):
So what gets in the way ofyour vertical orientation?
What do you have to fight?
- You have to fight the calendar,
you know, where everyone'strying to get in the calendar
of all the various stakeholdersthat I'm involved with.
I mean, as you mentioned,
I've been CEO now in privateequity finance organizations.
The shareholder managementis a big part of it in PE,
(24:36):
setting expectations, reporting,
discussing issues, getting advice.
I'm also very fortunate I'vegot an outstanding chairman
and a gentleman called Sir Roger Carr,
a veteran of British industry.
There's the shareholder management,
there's the other stakeholders,
the organizational processes,this permanent reviews,
but they are all part of the day job.
But what I do is try and spend time,
(24:58):
I think you would call itdeep work in Bain-speak,
thinking about how we stay true north
of what we're trying to do,
this vertical thing, consumer orientation.
And for that I often get accused
of being the optimist in the room, right?
But I think you have to in the CEO role,
where are we trying togo? What's our vision?
What are we gonna do in thenext three months, six months?
But what are we gonna do in three years?
(25:19):
Because, you know, if I don'tdo that, then it won't happen
'cause everyone else is getting consumed
by delivering this week's, this month's,
next quarter's numbers,which is right by the way.
I mean, that's our job.
And we had a world globalcall only yesterday
with our top 100 leaders.
And there I was preaching, of course,
deliver our FCO 6 for 2025,
'cause now's the time, you haveto remind everybody of that,
(25:40):
now is not the timefor fancy vision stuff.
You know, there's also, let's be honest,
there's a time and a place for everything.
So in the end, what are the crown jewels
of an organization that I work in?
I always think there are two.
There's of course the brands
which you inherit inwhatever state they are
and you try and leave whenever you leave
in a better state when you pass the baton.
(26:01):
But the older I get, the more you realize
it's actually all aboutthe other crown jewel
as well the people.
And I know this is an oldcliche, so forgive me for it.
Surround yourself with outstanding people.
And I have an optimisticdisposition, thank God.
I didn't choose it. It kind of happened.
And I do think in these roles,
'cause they are, the otherthing I would say, right,
these CEO roles, and I tryand point it out at home,
(26:24):
they are seriously lonelier.
- Why is it lonely?
- You know, you're making tough decisions
that affect thousands ofpeoples lives at times.
In Grohe the restructuring
that we had to do when we walked in.
We had to let a lot of people go.
It was front page news in the German press
for the whole locust debate, you know.
It's pretty lonely when you death threats,
(26:44):
when you have a book written about you,
which is still published,
by the way, in Germany to have you killed.
That's pretty lonely.
When you're dealing withvery deep personal issues
of your colleagues
that you know about intheir personal lives.
Over the years together we'veseen many tough situations,
whether it's health issues,personal issues, career issues,
and to stay focused andoptimistic in the organization
(27:06):
when everyone's lookingat you all the time
and looking not at you,but, you know, what you do,
what you say, how you act, how you behave.
You know, you're always on.
That's where you need to besurrounded by also at home
and in your personal life
hobbies, activities, and an infrastructure
that has nothing to dowith your business card.
(27:29):
- I think this is the most underrated
yet vital trait of great leaders.
It's the courage to beauthentic, to be vulnerable,
to talk about the things thatno one else dares mention.
David said it. The CEO job can be lonely.
I mean, you know a lot ofthings you can't share.
There are a couple decisionsthat only you can make.
And everybody wants your energy,
(27:49):
but very few feel it's importantto give you their energy.
You know, I love thatDavid walks the talk.
It's his openness and honesty
that then can sparkreal adult conversations
in those red is good meetings
and it's what turns a manifesto,
which could so easilyjust be words on a wall,
into something people can live by.
(28:09):
And if you want more stories
of CEOs really telling it like it is,
check the link in our show notes.
And now back to David withsome rapid fire questions.
What brings you energy?
- I love to build brands.
Take a brand, whateverstate it's in, sort it out,
move it forward, and get it healthy.
I love it. It's a real kick.
- So what drains you of energy?
(28:30):
- Yeah, shareholders
who have what I call masterof the universe-itis.
- I know what you're talking about.
Do you have energy vampires in your work?
- You always have some energy vampires,
and it's often difficult to find them,
but you gotta find them.
And I use a simple methodology,
what I call a Skill Will Matrix.
HR gang hate it 'cause theythink it's far too simple,
(28:53):
but it's, you know, skill onthe X-axis, will on the Y-axis,
and just plot where everybody is.
And clearly bottom lefthand corner, frankly,
no point in having a long conversation,
deal with high skill, butlow will serious conversation
and actually the most dangerous.
So you either need toget them on board or out.
Low skill, high will, train.
High skill, high will, let 'em loose.
(29:14):
- What's the best adviceyou've ever received?
- It's a simple one,given to me by a French,
very successful businessmanwhen I was 28 years old
and was having my first child.
Take your family outfor lunch every Sunday.
Your kids can't run off to the bedroom
when you try and have a conversation.
Your wife doesn't haveto spend the morning
or you have to have done,have to spend the morning
in the kitchen cooking and youactually get some good food.
(29:36):
- Okay, let's recap someof our key takeaways
from today's episode.
- You don't win with great PowerPoint.
You have to have great ideas
based on a strong strategy and insight.
Ours was ask a simple humanquestion. How are you?
That simple insight that wetried to then bring to life
through various, youknow, advertising tools,
(29:56):
we tried to make our brand
the most relevant brand of the day.
- No matter how big the organization,
great leadership stillcomes down to one thing,
never losing sight of the customer.
I mean, do you measure your day in slides
or conversations with customers
and the people that serve them?
- The moment of truthwas called CoolTouch.
(30:17):
And it was a concept that suddenly,
very simply gave the plumber,the architect, the designer
a reason to recommend ourproducts to the consumer.
- You know, you've gotta winacross the whole ecosystem.
Guess what?
Doesn't actually matter howideas leave your office.
What matters is how they hit the customer.
(30:39):
- I've always tried to do that,
create a very clear purposefor our organizations.
And at the end, the consumeris always in the middle,
because what's business about?
It's about selling more stuffto more people more often
at the end of the day.
- To stay vertical, Davidkeeps returning to the mission,
to the manifesto, to therelentless customer focus.
(31:00):
It's connection with the frontline,
but it's also how you act every day.
Are you humble? Are you normal?
And do you create an environment
where people are empoweredto tell the truth?
You know, it's easy at the beginning.
Every new customer is a huge victory.
Every sale is a reason to celebrate.
But as our businesses scale,
these events aggregate into numbers.
(31:22):
The millions of conversations
that lead to millions of dollars in sales,
well, they happily live in spreadsheets
and stop echoing in our hallways.
You know, your success is theresult of you being relevant,
of being edgy, ofmattering to the customer
more than any other offer.
But it's that very successwhich creates complacency
(31:44):
and a slow drift towards irrelevancy.
So how does a company keep its edge?
And how do you find theenergy to stay relevant
year after year after year?
Well, in our next episode,we're gonna talk to Pedro Arnt.
He's CEO of dLocal andformer CFO of Mercado Libre.
And he's gonna be talkingto us about what it means
(32:05):
to stay relevant througha period of hypergrowth.
So we'll see you in the next episode,
and until then, stay curious.
(upbeat music)
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