Vanesa Cotlar shares insights on remote work, building relationships with CEOs, and leveraging AI for business innovation. Discover practical strategies for career growth, team building, and staying ahead in AI technology.
00:00 – Introduction to Vanesa Cotlar
04:36 – Remote Work vs. In-Person Collaboration
08:59 – Work Style, Meetings & Productivity Habits
11:09 – Performance Reviews, Team Building & RTO Takes
12:18 – The CEO ↔ People Leader Relationship
17:34 – Career Growth & Becoming a Strategic Partner
22:33 – AI Challenges in Modern Workplaces
24:59 – AI Learning, Upskilling & Internal Innovation
28:06 – AI Tools That Changed Workflow Efficiency
31:11 – Staying Ahead of the AI Curve
34:43 – Overcoming Fear & Resistance to AI Adoption
36:28 – Closing Thoughts & Final Reflections
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:32):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of From a People Perspective.
I'm your host, Martin Hawk.
And today we've got Vanessa Kotler with us.
Thanks for joining.
Thank you for having me, Martin.
All right, so we're going to dive in here.
uh I think I always prefer when folks do their own intro, but I've also known you've donea ton of podcasts in the past and I don't want to like, I want to cover some, some new
(02:00):
stuff.
So for, for context and for everyone listening, there's a ton of amazing podcasts thatyou've been on in the past that kind of like cover the
The whole story, right?
You started in strategy consulting at Deloitte.
You left to do like a remote year.
You co-founded an HR tech startup company.
We'll jump into a couple of questions there for sure.
(02:21):
And then you moved, you came back to Canada and currently you're the VP of people andculture at policy me a digital insurance company out of Toronto.
They're sort of like, and from, from the looks of it, in my understanding, it's sort oflike the wealth, simple of insurance.
Is that a fair, is that a fair crack?
Yeah, I mean, we started in the life and health space and we're building essentially thewhole suite of insurance products.
(02:43):
So yes, that's where we're going.
Cool, um cool.
So to start things off just to get to break the ice.
Let's just assume you're like stranded on a desert island.
And you don't have anything but one music album or artists to listen to for the rest oftime.
(03:03):
What what artists are you picking?
god, what a good question.
You know, I'm gonna answer this probably in a weird way, but I'm the type of person thatdoesn't really have like a favorite artist or album, but I get stuck on songs.
So I feel like I'm the type of person that I get stuck on a song and then I will listen tothat song on repeat till I'm done with the song.
(03:25):
um Which is really, really funny because for anyone that knows me, like if you are with methrough a period, you'll just know like anytime you're, you know, if you're a friend and
you come over, you'll just know one song will play.
m
But I will say it's funny.
I feel like one of my pump ups is glad you came.
It's just like a good one to get things.
Yeah, yeah.
(03:47):
And that one like stays in my mind.
It just lives there.
know, when you're like, okay, the weekend's coming or those sorts of things, it's in mymind.
Would I listen to it if I'm on a desert island the whole time?
I don't know.
Maybe I'd look for something deeper to keep me company.
Yeah, I'd worry that like being alone on an island.
uh Yeah, you're just sitting there.
(04:08):
But but that was no like the point is really just
welcomes me, Martin.
The island is glad I came.
Yeah, there we go.
uh perspective shift.
uh Midnight snacks or snacking in general.
What's what's your go to
Okay, this I'm much better at because I have a lot of snacks.
uh I would say I'm definitely a popcorn person, both sweet and salty.
(04:30):
And I love acai bowls.
But is that what I'm having at midnight?
Probably not because I would need to go find it.
that's fair.
uh Okay, so popcorn wise, like, are you you go to the movies?
Do you have like a routine to get butter on the popcorn?
Is there a system in place?
Or are you more of like a bagged popcorn person or make your own popcorn?
(04:50):
definitely begged popcorn person but like the fun flavors we actually did a popcorntasting social at policy me last year which was so fun because we're remote first we
actually sent all our employees these boxes to their homes of like gourmet popcorn andlike the whole social was like try your flavors pick your favorite and then you were like
in groups with people that had the same favorite as you it was just like a quick fun thingto do um but i'm talking like the ones that are like champagne strawberry popping popcorn
(05:20):
alright.
we're talking like cool, different popcorn flavors.
So are you like ride or die Chicago mix or what's your go to flavor flavor?
I feel like I like the sweet and salty more than Chicago mix.
I find Chicago mix honestly, it's really on your hands a lot.
Popcorn in general, like the hard snap when you're like, can't shake so much.
(05:40):
Yeah, it's a messy ordeal at times.
Yeah, that's fair.
Okay, so cool.
We've gotten we've gotten to know you a bit here.
Now I want to get a sense of like your approach to things people and culture wise, let'skind of like dig into like, how how you see things from that perspective.
So let's dig into that stuff.
So uh what is your most controversial work from home take?
(06:08):
Most controversial?
I mean, hmm.
I don't know that this is controversial per se.
I know you know I've been a, you know, remote work, work.
from where you do your best work proponent for a long time.
I think that something that's interesting is, you I've been at policy me for almost fiveyears.
I have worked remotely and in person in the past as well, depending on the company.
(06:30):
And when it comes to remote work, I think I am someone that for a long time valued likethe ultimate flexibility, like never being in office at all.
I fully choose all the time, but.
I moved back to Toronto in August of last year and we do have an office in downtownToronto for policy me and we have optional Thursdays in the office.
(06:51):
And what I mean by optional is like you definitely don't have to go a lot of employeescan't go in because we have employees across the whole country.
But if you're here, it's like, okay, come hang out on Thursdays, come in person.
And I've been going every Thursday for almost a year now, which was a big change for mebecause the prior, you know, five, six years of my life, I was fully, fully remote.
uh
And I guess maybe my controversial like hot take on it is as much as I love remote work, Ido think some in-person component is really, really valuable.
(07:22):
Even when I was remote, we would get together as a company a few times a year and I'd comein.
But now that I go in, you know, with this once a week, I do see value in seeing peoplefrom time to time as well.
I think it's just this unique balance of if people show up because they want to show up inperson, it's so much more
intentional and meaningful and it's a better time than if people feel forced or mandatedto come in.
(07:46):
So my controversial take on remote work is maybe that it works best if you also are opento a little bit of seeing other
Okay, that's fair.
That's fair.
I know anytime I have to go somewhere and I don't want to be there, but I know I have tobe there.
Like, I bring a completely different energy and like, how would that be?
How would that be any different for working if not more like amplified?
(08:12):
For sure.
All right.
um What emoji best describes your work style?
Oh, good question.
um Maybe like the mind exploding emoji.
You know, which one I'm talking about.
Because I think I'm like, doing so much all the time.
(08:33):
um You know, we talked about this in my team too, I think like, I really am everywhere.
And people often say to me like, I don't know how you do your job.
And I'm like, I just do you know, I just am where I am all of the time.
But I'm very like connected throughout the business, I would say.
um definitely a people team that uh is embedded in how the company runs.
(08:56):
Nice, nice.
So my I like that that was that one's very new.
We've gotten a couple like similar ones.
But that one that one's new.
dig that.
Okay.
Is there do you have like a secret weapon for surviving back to back meetings?
When sounds like today is one of those days as well.
(09:16):
So what's what's your secret weapon there?
Yeah, I would say a lot of my days are either lots of back to backs or chunks of back tobacks.
I do have secret weapon.
Any meeting that I don't need to screen share, I take as a call.
People know this at policy me and it's a great opportunity to get up from my desk.
It means I'm not like tied to zoom all day and I try to go for a walk as much as I can oreven move from my desk.
(09:38):
And I've been doing this for years.
And I think the nice thing about it too is people know that when they're meeting with me,if there's no need to screen share, I'll probably suggest a call.
And in fact, people now ask me, they're like, hey, like, are we okay to do a call and notzoom today?
And I'm like, yeah, of course.
And I think it makes a huge difference because I think if you're sitting nonstop for likeseven, eight hours, that's pretty miserable.
(09:59):
But if in between meetings, you're like going for a walk while you're talking to someone,it really, not only I find breaks up the day, but I find it really helps you focus.
I think in a world of lots of distractions, Slack messages, notifications, when you are ona phone call, you're not looking at a screen.
you don't have those things pop up.
So you can really be more present too.
(10:19):
take that.
do that.
Okay, one word answers a couple more of these and then we'll start diving into things.
So uh performance reviews are
Um, just one word.
I'm going to be so bad at this.
Can I say a sentence of, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, performance reviews areneeded, but have to be redesigned.
(10:47):
needed but I have to be okay I like that I like that ah team building exercises are
when they don't feel too forced.
Return to office mandates are.
I just, I just shake my head.
(11:10):
Every CHRO or CPOs secret fear is
that your CEO doesn't actually believe in the HR space or listen to them.
Okay, interesting.
um And the workplace trend that we all need to
(11:32):
Hold on, I should clarify before we put that anywhere.
I don't mean it necessarily for myself.
It's just something.
I have a great relationship with my CEO that I know.
Yes, I don't know how we get these things.
You can definitely put that I'm saying this in there, but I think it's definitelysomething that uh I've talked a lot with peers about, you know, in one and one or at, you
(11:53):
know, I was recently at the troop HR retreat and it's something that comes up in terms ofjust like the CEO, uh CPO relationship.
No, that's it's I've heard that a number of times, right?
You really want to make sure you're aligned and and that they care, right?
Yeah, and not to on too much of a tangent, and I'm happy to dig into this more if you'dlike, but I think one of the themes and trends I definitely see is that chief people
(12:18):
officers, VP people that stay in their roles for a long time, almost always it's becausethe relationship with a CEO is good.
uh There's no person in my role that I know that has been able to stay a long time if theyhave a bad relationship with a CEO or if the CEO doesn't really believe.
(12:38):
in kind of like the function because it's really really hard right and honestly like whenpeople say how have you been at policy for almost five years the first thing I always say
is my relationship with the founders makes a huge difference in why I choose to stay.
100 % retention is that simple, right?
Almost to a certain extent, like if you're thinking of like executive team retention orlike things founders should know uh about it is like if you don't actually value the the
(13:11):
role and the function of people in the organization, which would be a head scratcher forsure, then then
Why even build out that department?
Why build out that team?
Why have people working towards improving it, right?
Yeah, 100%.
And I think that part of it too is definitely those relationships are built over time, butum it really needs to have that thought of like, want this person to be my partner.
(13:38):
If let's let's double click on on this actually, because it's a kind of an interestingtopic.
I know a lot of members in the community.
And I've had a lot of conversations over the last couple of weeks, just being in a bunchof different um areas of the country.
um There is this there is this uncertainty in like, not on the CPO VP level, but like whenpeople are moving their way up, it's like, they're not necessarily quite sure of how to
(14:06):
start building that relationship like
talking about somebody that's like maybe a director um or a head of or something likethat.
And they're on the track, they're on track to get into like, the executive team andwhatnot.
But they're just not quite sure how to like build that that relationship.
What what have you seen in your career?
(14:27):
What have you experienced in your career that you would recommend to those folks?
Yeah, that's such a good question, Martin.
I think a lot of people struggle with that.
I think I would have honestly first if I was talking to someone about this one on one,like a few clarifying questions, like for example, is there someone in that role today,
right?
Like are you reporting into a chief people officer or VP people that's on the executive oris there just no one in this space?
(14:49):
And maybe you're reporting into which I hear lots to like the CFO or the COO.
You don't talk to the CEO very much.
There's no people person on the executive team.
Like those setups I also have heard of a few times.
And I think when it comes to building the relationship with a CEO, I would basically kindof based on that beginning, you know what I mean?
Like what is the potential setup and structure that you have?
(15:12):
Because not every setup is the same.
And therefore my recommendation would be a little bit different.
But assuming kind of like a scenario where maybe there is no one else there on thepeople's side, right?
Like the most senior person is
you know, senior manager, director level or head of, they're not on the executive team.
No one on the people side is on the executive team.
And you're like, how do I get that C?
(15:32):
I think so much of it is trying to figure out what matters to your CEO.
And I know that seems simple, but it's saying to your CEO, hey, like, I want to make sureI'm providing the most value that I can for you and for the business.
Can I grab 30 minutes with you and pick your brain about the things that are top of mindfor you?
And
I think that sometimes it can feel intimidating to have those conversations or to saythose things.
(15:56):
But honestly, asking your CEO what they need or what they need to see more of from you,maybe what they need to see less of from you can be such a meaningful way to start to
understand how to shape that relationship.
And then you have to deliver, right?
So if they say, okay, these are like my main areas that I'm worried or concerned aboutthat I would love some support in, then I think showing that you can be that strategic
(16:20):
partner.
and help them figure out how to resolve those challenges that they're facing go such along way.
And I'm thinking, okay, actually, maybe I should have brought this person in sooner or nowgoing forward when this comes up, I know that I can count on them because look at this
amazing thing that they delivered.
Yeah.
And do you think it stems really just from putting your hand up and, or, or asking thosekind of more high level strategic long-term thinking type questions?
(16:47):
And I mean, obviously he has to come back from like results as well.
They're not necessarily going to invest time if they don't see the value in it or haven'tseen like a person doing well in the first place to a certain extent.
um, does it, is it strictly that, or is there other aspects to it?
Yeah, I mean, obviously, if you know, the CEO has a reason as to why they don't want therole on the executive team, or they don't believe in it, that may just be like a hard
(17:10):
uphill battle that may be impossible to climb.
So I think that's kind of why we say at the beginning, the situation matters so much,right?
Is it that is it actually your CEO?
Or are you reporting into someone that's like not advocating for you and not giving youthat space?
So I'm very much taking it from the perspective of like the one scenario where there isthat opportunity for you.
(17:30):
but maybe you just haven't built that relationship with your CEO.
So when I say like, um really figuring out what they need, I think that's just thestarting point, right?
Then it's, they tell you what they need, you figure out how to deliver, you go back tothem, you start building this relationship of essentially collaborating on things.
They start seeing the impact, you share lots of data, you quantify the things that you'redoing, and as they see results, you then put your hand up again, hey, we were able to work
(17:57):
on this together.
Now, has that moved the needle enough for you?
How else can we be working together more effectively?
Or what else would you need to see that would really help you in your day to day or helpour company move to the next level?
And I think really getting into the understanding of what is keeping a CEO up at night andhow you can support from the people side of things can be super valuable.
(18:23):
small, small pivot here, but it kind of relates to it in the sense that having been afounder yourself and starting a starting a company and going through that journey, to a
degree that gives you a massive edge when it comes to like, understanding what they'regoing through as well and being able to relate.
(18:47):
uh You think
that's like a critical individual experience for someone to go through in order to like,build that relationship?
Or can you do it without that?
I definitely don't think you need to be a founder to understand your founders.
I think what it did for me, to be honest, is I think being a founder and especially beinga CEO is so different than what most people think.
(19:10):
Like, especially early on, a lot of your time is spent talking to potential investors andpitching your business.
You are more outward facing.
I would say your job is closer to sales than anything else.
You're like sharing ideas, getting people to believe in you and you're doing a lot lessbuilding or you're trying to build.
whenever you possibly find free time and as things get bigger, that's where like the rolereally starts to shift and change.
(19:33):
But the CEO is always like, how are we gonna keep this business alive?
Right, they're always looking at the financials, they're always looking at runway, they'realways looking at growth, like they're really thinking at a macro level, how are we gonna
make sure that this organization not only like survives but thrives?
um And with that, think um when I think about my own journey, was it helpful to understandthat mindset?
(19:54):
Sure, like it never hurts.
But I definitely don't think it's necessary to say, start your own thing before you try toreally understand your CEO or your founders.
Right?
What in in, that moment, what should a person sort of be thinking, like, if they don'thave that, or if that's never on the like, hey, I don't have the entrepreneurial bug,
that's more for me, I want to work my way up through through the organization, I want towork in organizations, I don't want to start my own thing.
(20:21):
What are like the key things you think a person should be working on that might not beobvious.
Yeah, I mean, I think when it comes to progressing in your career, one of the biggestthings that I always say is just like, do what you say you're gonna do, being someone
that's reliable.
I know it's, again, I think a lot of these things, like they seem simple, but they're notthings that everyone showcases.
(20:45):
And if you're the person that's there when someone needs you and you're there time andtime again, and you're responsive and you don't mind that...
You know, I know there's a lot of different perspectives in terms of like after hourswork, but at the end of the day, like your CEO is likely working all the time, right?
So if you want them to see you as a partner, if they need something at like 7 PM on aTuesday and you get back to them at 7, 10 PM on the Tuesday, it's going to be much more
(21:11):
valuable for them than if they hear from you the next day, if they were working that nightthrough something that needed your input.
So I think so much of it is trade-offs too, right?
There's different moments where people choose to focus more on their
careers, where they're willing to invest in certain ways to kind of progress quickly.
And there's times where people are focusing more on other areas of their life, right?
So I always say just like, keep in mind what are your own priorities in that moment andunderstand that like, sometimes especially if you want to grow quickly in tech or the
(21:40):
startup world, and in other industries too, right?
I think that like, reliable nature and that commitment to actually showing up when someoneneeds you can go such a long
kind pivoting back to where you're at right now and a similar question like, okay, sobuilding relationship with the founders or the CEOs and the exec team relies on really
(22:06):
knowing what sort of keeping them up at night, in terms of like, yourself and your role inpolicy, meaning now, and just like the world of people and culture, what sort of what's
the big challenge on your plate right now from from your perspective?
Yeah, I think that, em and you know, I'm happy to talk a lot about this because we'vetalked about it little bit before, but I think AI is moving so quickly.
(22:31):
And I would say I'm someone that has been in it from pretty early stages.
Like I was building GPTs before Chad GPT had the ability to build GPTs with differenttools.
And I would say I my journey in like 2023.
towards the end of 2023 and then into 24 really started to supercharge more.
(22:51):
We're in 2026, but like the tools I was using originally are totally different than thetools that I'm using now.
Like I'm in cloud code, building apps for myself, for my team, helping us like deployfaster things that we need or things that were manual.
Like how can we build tools around them that are specific for us?
But I think one of the things that I see is like this, the speed that it's moving at andthe time available that we all have to learn.
(23:17):
are not aligned because I would say like as an executive, I have so much that I need toget through in a day and a week and a month.
And at the same time now I've added this layer of I want to be the most AI literateversion of myself that I can be.
And as an executive team, uh we made our own OKR for Q2 that everyone would ship somethingwith cloud code, like a functioning app.
(23:42):
like I've done a few already.
But again, it takes time because the things that you build when you're a non-technicalperson, learning to vibe code, learning to launch things for the first time, like they're
not perfect.
And I would say things that keep me up at night is not only how do I upscale, but how do Iupscale my whole team?
How do I make sure we have access to the right tools?
What about data privacy?
(24:03):
What about all of our employees information?
You we are in an insurance company, so we're super intentional in how we move and how wegive people access to things.
So it's this like constant balance of
wanting to move fast, wanting to innovate, but also understanding that like, can't, thereis such a thing as moving too quickly with tools and technologies that we don't
understand.
Yeah.
(24:24):
Is it?
Is it too simple to just think like, oh, so like the old school, I'm not old school makesprobably not the right way to put it.
But like, Google was like, they had the 8020 rule or not the 8020.
But like, four days a week, you're working on Google.
And the fifth day out of the week, Google's letting you build or create your own thing andkind of just be creative.
(24:45):
And it was like,
specific to the business, but like give you that freedom in space.
And I don't know how much they honored it or not.
But it's like, is it as simple as like, all right, AI is here, it's moving crazy fast.
You have half a day every week, where the expectation is to like learn it from from yourperspective.
Is that a good strategy?
(25:06):
Is that a right strategy?
Have you employed it?
Yeah, I think it can totally depend on the organization.
You know, I think also there's there's a difference between learning and just like whatyou're doing to learn and understand the tools and how to build versus like actually
building things that add value to the business.
And I would say a lot of our last year, so a lot of 2025 at policy and you was just spenton let's get people in there.
(25:31):
Let's get people learning.
Let's get people trying tools.
Let's get people to
really be AI literate.
And we wrapped up the year last year in November with a Hack AI-thon where we had teamssit with their home team and build something by the end of the day with like engineering
managers going around for the day and supporting as needed.
(25:51):
But it was such a good thing to work towards because in advance we had everyone do someprep work and like make sure that they were able to use the tools that they needed for the
day.
So I think that part of it is, uh
balancing the learning with like, what do you actually need to build that adds businessvalue, realizing that you can't do this if people don't learn.
(26:11):
So I don't know, I don't know that Martin that there's like a perfect balance of how tooffer it.
And I also think it depends by team, right?
Like I would say our engineering team is spending a lot more time with AI than other partsof the business, but it makes sense, right?
Because when you think about it from a development standpoint, they're the ones that canbuild the
(26:32):
version of our agentic workforce that is easiest to understand and deploy fastest.
So what I mean by that is, you can now build basically an agentic software developer,right?
Like you can build an AI software developer that is building or that is doing essentiallylike debugging when there is a bug, they can check for the bug and understand what's
(26:53):
happening and give you solutions and recommendations and even deploy those, right?
But it's because it's code-based, it's more like, em
The way I think of it is like, it's math, right?
Like you can be like, yes, they figured out the answer, but it's so much more different tosay we're gonna build like an AI based people and culture specialist that's gonna answer
(27:14):
all of your questions when I'm not sure what it's gonna say in which scenario, even if youtrain it because it's nuanced, right?
So I think that we're there for some things and not for other things and it's gonna keepchanging.
What's one of the things that yourself or your team has built that your has just had likethe biggest return for either your team's work day to day or like, you know, the impact to
(27:41):
the company overall, like that kind of surprised you.
Like you, you were building it or the team was building it and you're like, this is goingto be useful and helpful.
And the end result was like, my God, like how, did we not build this sooner?
Why didn't we think of this sooner?
Is there anything like
I think that to be honest, we're getting there.
Like I think most businesses are still in the process of like the biggest returns on theinvestment from AI because I think we're still in this learning bucket.
(28:09):
There's a number of things that we've built and launched.
But again, we don't have like, I would say an agentic people and culture team member thatis like really a part of the team yet.
I'm sure in the future there will be some version of this.
But I can share a couple things.
I mean, we've had some for years now.
So one of the first things we built um with, like basically it was a GPT at the time, butagain, the first version I built was pre-GPTs was a job description generator, which um
(28:36):
honestly over the years now has saved us so much time.
Like when you think about simple things like building one for your team, if you don't haveone, it literally at this point in time takes you about five minutes to build with Chad
GPT.
Like you can build your own GPT.
You give it a few examples of your JD.
You give it the format, you give it the output you want.
you like so easy to build these at the time it was more novel.
(28:57):
But over the years, like this is how we start all of our job descriptions.
We don't do drafts anymore.
And I would say people like how did we do them in the past?
You used to go to LinkedIn, see what other jobs were live that were similar to what youwanted to do and post.
And you would take some of that information, you do some brainstorming, but it used totake time to create these drafts.
And now it takes like 30 seconds or less because you're putting it out there and thenediting.
(29:20):
So that I would say is like such a simple one.
that we built a few years ago now that definitely, when you think about like investment oftime to build versus like time saved, definitely one that kind of looks like that.
That's nice.
No, the, yeah.
Like when you think about it, like, I mean, I remember like having been a recruiter for 15years, like the, the amount of times like you're stalled on progress just because you
(29:47):
haven't had the time to get a JD out the door.
And you're like, that keeps coming up.
And meanwhile you're doing screening calls and doing intake intakes and everything likethat.
That's all just been like consolidated down.
that's
That's a great one.
um
have a ton of other examples.
Like we built a performance review assistant a few years ago now.
So basically, so that when you're writing feedback, helps with tone structure.
(30:11):
I think a lot of managers struggle to like get written feedback, right?
So we taught the GPT, our feedback models, how to give good feedback.
And then it really helps managers through the process.
So that was another one.
So there's been like tons of like apps and tools that we've built just to
make people's experiences better, I would say.
(30:33):
um In terms of the so like, what's really interesting is you were, you mentioned a coupletimes now, but like, building GPT's before GPT's were like codified is there's an element
to that that suggests and from the sounds of it, like, you're well ahead of the curb interms of like, you're not waiting for
(31:00):
things to like fall into your lap in order to be like, okay, I understand this and I wantto do this.
And there's one thing understanding it.
And then there's another thing of like implementing it.
What what are you keeping an eye on right now?
Just even just for yourself with all the AI stuff, like what are are there specific toolsthat you're really excited about concepts or frameworks?
Like, what are the things that like you're reading up on right now?
(31:23):
Yeah, great question.
I mean, I would say the most life of all the things I've done in the last few years, themost life changing, um, and no one's going to say this is definitely Claude code, but I
want to explain why.
So I, I do think in this moment in time still to go in terminal, which is like whatdevelopers use, there is like a small barrier to entry, which like I say small, but maybe
(31:47):
it's not that small for non-technical people because it's things we don't know how to do.
Right.
Like I had never like.
Martin, I don't know if you've done it.
Have you gone into terminal on your computer?
have.
Okay.
Yeah.
But you know what I mean, right?
Like it's one of those things that it's like, yeah, exactly.
Like it's a whole new operate.
It's a new whole new way of operating.
You're, going in there and like it, you know, you're starting to code with cloud code andto build apps and to learn how to like integrate API's, how to add different keys for
(32:17):
things, how to like,
understand JSON files and like what's good and what's bad and why did this break and tolike troubleshoot for yourself and to be like, okay, how can I actually deploy this?
Like how do I make this live?
What are the different ways you can host things?
What's safe?
What's not safe?
I just think it, um it really has changed my perspective on a lot of things that I justdidn't really understand before because I didn't have the opportunity to understand
(32:43):
before.
because I don't have a background in software development.
like we joke internally that I'm like our most junior software developer now at Polysumyas well.
Just because like I feel like to your point, like I've been like a little bit ahead of thecurve the whole time.
So the first time I, our CTO and I co-lead our AI strategy in our company, we decided thisat the end of 2024, launched it in 2025.
(33:04):
So that also really helped just because him and I have been very tied at the hip in termsof what are we doing?
How are we going about it?
How are we making sure?
employees are really a part of the journey.
um But I, and another engineering manager, when we chat about certain things, they'relike, wow, you're really like starting to ask like the questions that our junior engineers
(33:26):
ask, you know, around like, why is this this way?
Or like, why isn't this working?
uh And I think it's just very interesting.
And when you say like, what am I keeping an eye on?
Or like, where do I look for things?
I am very fortunate that we have
An AI guild internally, meet every six weeks now.
We used to meet every three weeks last year when we were really building.
Now every six weeks, we demo what we've all built.
(33:48):
I'm surrounded by humans that are incredibly insightful and really driving AI forwardwithin their roles.
And we all get to learn from each other.
So that's been just a fantastic way internally to stay ahead of the curve and alsounderstand what's important for us as business.
So if I'm listening to this and I have been on the fence or like waiting outside the doorthinking like, there's this whole crazy party, but it's intimidating.
(34:16):
I don't want to go in there.
I don't know how to dance kind of deal.
I don't know anyone in this room, kind of like the, analogy of just being intimidated byAI and like, um, what, what could you leave with those people still throw like listening
like, man, it sounds so cool what Vanessa is doing, but like,
I'm still just so intimidated.
Like, where should they start?
What should they do?
(34:37):
Yeah, I know this is a funny suggestion, but pick whichever you're most excited to try, beit Chadgy, BT, if you haven't, but most people have, Claude.
would say just like go into Claude AI and say, hi, I'm new to this.
I don't know how to get started.
This is what my role is.
These are what my fears are.
I'm looking to learn.
Like, how do I start?
(34:58):
And I think what's cool about all of these new tools is like they'll walk you througheverything, right?
When I think about how have I been able to learn so much or try.
so much.
It's because when you get stuck you say that, like, how do I move forward?
Right?
Like, help me find a way forward.
Or like, I don't know how to do this.
Can you help me figure it out?
And it does.
And like, I would say, you know, AI is very helpful in helping humans understand how touse AI.
(35:24):
If, you know, you're approaching it in the right way and asking it like thoughtfulquestions.
Also, if you ask it basic questions too.
I'm not saying listen to everything AI says, but when it comes to the...
that initial barrier to entry, like how do I get started if I haven't yet, I would say allof your questions that you maybe are like, I shouldn't be asking these anymore, I should
know the answer, just go ask Claude, go ask Chachi BT, em because it feels like a safe wayto kind of enter the space.
(35:49):
sounds very fair.
Awesome.
Well, honestly, it feels like in three or six months, you'll have a bunch of differentanswers or a bunch of different updates, given the way the speed of things are going that
that really relates.
I just want to say thanks for making time for this conversation today.
I really appreciate it.
Excited to continue.
(36:10):
Yeah, of course.
Happy to share back anytime, give you updates, Martin.
It's always lovely to chat.
Likewise.
Awesome.
Take care.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of From a People Perspective.
I'm your host, Martin Hawk.
And today we've got Vanessa Kotler with us.
Thanks for joining.
Thank you for having me, Martin.
All right, so we're going to dive in here.
uh I think I always prefer when folks do their own intro, but I've also known you've donea ton of podcasts in the past and I don't want to like, I want to cover some, some new
(02:00):
stuff.
So for, for context and for everyone listening, there's a ton of amazing podcasts thatyou've been on in the past that kind of like cover the
The whole story, right?
You started in strategy consulting at Deloitte.
You left to do like a remote year.
You co-founded an HR tech startup company.
We'll jump into a couple of questions there for sure.
(02:21):
And then you moved, you came back to Canada and currently you're the VP of people andculture at policy me a digital insurance company out of Toronto.
They're sort of like, and from, from the looks of it, in my understanding, it's sort oflike the wealth, simple of insurance.
Is that a fair, is that a fair crack?
Yeah, I mean, we started in the life and health space and we're building essentially thewhole suite of insurance products.
(02:43):
So yes, that's where we're going.
Cool, um cool.
So to start things off just to get to break the ice.
Let's just assume you're like stranded on a desert island.
And you don't have anything but one music album or artists to listen to for the rest oftime.
(03:03):
What what artists are you picking?
god, what a good question.
You know, I'm gonna answer this probably in a weird way, but I'm the type of person thatdoesn't really have like a favorite artist or album, but I get stuck on songs.
So I feel like I'm the type of person that I get stuck on a song and then I will listen tothat song on repeat till I'm done with the song.
(03:25):
um Which is really, really funny because for anyone that knows me, like if you are with methrough a period, you'll just know like anytime you're, you know, if you're a friend and
you come over, you'll just know one song will play.
m
But I will say it's funny.
I feel like one of my pump ups is glad you came.
It's just like a good one to get things.
Yeah, yeah.
(03:47):
And that one like stays in my mind.
It just lives there.
know, when you're like, okay, the weekend's coming or those sorts of things, it's in mymind.
Would I listen to it if I'm on a desert island the whole time?
I don't know.
Maybe I'd look for something deeper to keep me company.
Yeah, I'd worry that like being alone on an island.
uh Yeah, you're just sitting there.
(04:08):
But but that was no like the point is really just
welcomes me, Martin.
The island is glad I came.
Yeah, there we go.
uh perspective shift.
uh Midnight snacks or snacking in general.
What's what's your go to
Okay, this I'm much better at because I have a lot of snacks.
uh I would say I'm definitely a popcorn person, both sweet and salty.
(04:30):
And I love acai bowls.
But is that what I'm having at midnight?
Probably not because I would need to go find it.
that's fair.
uh Okay, so popcorn wise, like, are you you go to the movies?
Do you have like a routine to get butter on the popcorn?
Is there a system in place?
Or are you more of like a bagged popcorn person or make your own popcorn?
(04:50):
definitely begged popcorn person but like the fun flavors we actually did a popcorntasting social at policy me last year which was so fun because we're remote first we
actually sent all our employees these boxes to their homes of like gourmet popcorn andlike the whole social was like try your flavors pick your favorite and then you were like
in groups with people that had the same favorite as you it was just like a quick fun thingto do um but i'm talking like the ones that are like champagne strawberry popping popcorn
(05:20):
alright.
we're talking like cool, different popcorn flavors.
So are you like ride or die Chicago mix or what's your go to flavor flavor?
I feel like I like the sweet and salty more than Chicago mix.
I find Chicago mix honestly, it's really on your hands a lot.
Popcorn in general, like the hard snap when you're like, can't shake so much.
(05:40):
Yeah, it's a messy ordeal at times.
Yeah, that's fair.
Okay, so cool.
We've gotten we've gotten to know you a bit here.
Now I want to get a sense of like your approach to things people and culture wise, let'skind of like dig into like, how how you see things from that perspective.
So let's dig into that stuff.
So uh what is your most controversial work from home take?
(06:08):
Most controversial?
I mean, hmm.
I don't know that this is controversial per se.
I know you know I've been a, you know, remote work, work.
from where you do your best work proponent for a long time.
I think that something that's interesting is, you I've been at policy me for almost fiveyears.
I have worked remotely and in person in the past as well, depending on the company.
(06:30):
And when it comes to remote work, I think I am someone that for a long time valued likethe ultimate flexibility, like never being in office at all.
I fully choose all the time, but.
I moved back to Toronto in August of last year and we do have an office in downtownToronto for policy me and we have optional Thursdays in the office.
(06:51):
And what I mean by optional is like you definitely don't have to go a lot of employeescan't go in because we have employees across the whole country.
But if you're here, it's like, okay, come hang out on Thursdays, come in person.
And I've been going every Thursday for almost a year now, which was a big change for mebecause the prior, you know, five, six years of my life, I was fully, fully remote.
uh
And I guess maybe my controversial like hot take on it is as much as I love remote work, Ido think some in-person component is really, really valuable.
(07:22):
Even when I was remote, we would get together as a company a few times a year and I'd comein.
But now that I go in, you know, with this once a week, I do see value in seeing peoplefrom time to time as well.
I think it's just this unique balance of if people show up because they want to show up inperson, it's so much more
intentional and meaningful and it's a better time than if people feel forced or mandatedto come in.
(07:46):
So my controversial take on remote work is maybe that it works best if you also are opento a little bit of seeing other
Okay, that's fair.
That's fair.
I know anytime I have to go somewhere and I don't want to be there, but I know I have tobe there.
Like, I bring a completely different energy and like, how would that be?
How would that be any different for working if not more like amplified?
(08:12):
For sure.
All right.
um What emoji best describes your work style?
Oh, good question.
um Maybe like the mind exploding emoji.
You know, which one I'm talking about.
Because I think I'm like, doing so much all the time.
(08:33):
um You know, we talked about this in my team too, I think like, I really am everywhere.
And people often say to me like, I don't know how you do your job.
And I'm like, I just do you know, I just am where I am all of the time.
But I'm very like connected throughout the business, I would say.
um definitely a people team that uh is embedded in how the company runs.
(08:56):
Nice, nice.
So my I like that that was that one's very new.
We've gotten a couple like similar ones.
But that one that one's new.
dig that.
Okay.
Is there do you have like a secret weapon for surviving back to back meetings?
When sounds like today is one of those days as well.
(09:16):
So what's what's your secret weapon there?
Yeah, I would say a lot of my days are either lots of back to backs or chunks of back tobacks.
I do have secret weapon.
Any meeting that I don't need to screen share, I take as a call.
People know this at policy me and it's a great opportunity to get up from my desk.
It means I'm not like tied to zoom all day and I try to go for a walk as much as I can oreven move from my desk.
(09:38):
And I've been doing this for years.
And I think the nice thing about it too is people know that when they're meeting with me,if there's no need to screen share, I'll probably suggest a call.
And in fact, people now ask me, they're like, hey, like, are we okay to do a call and notzoom today?
And I'm like, yeah, of course.
And I think it makes a huge difference because I think if you're sitting nonstop for likeseven, eight hours, that's pretty miserable.
(09:59):
But if in between meetings, you're like going for a walk while you're talking to someone,it really, not only I find breaks up the day, but I find it really helps you focus.
I think in a world of lots of distractions, Slack messages, notifications, when you are ona phone call, you're not looking at a screen.
you don't have those things pop up.
So you can really be more present too.
(10:19):
take that.
do that.
Okay, one word answers a couple more of these and then we'll start diving into things.
So uh performance reviews are
Um, just one word.
I'm going to be so bad at this.
Can I say a sentence of, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, performance reviews areneeded, but have to be redesigned.
(10:47):
needed but I have to be okay I like that I like that ah team building exercises are
when they don't feel too forced.
Return to office mandates are.
I just, I just shake my head.
(11:10):
Every CHRO or CPOs secret fear is
that your CEO doesn't actually believe in the HR space or listen to them.
Okay, interesting.
um And the workplace trend that we all need to
(11:32):
Hold on, I should clarify before we put that anywhere.
I don't mean it necessarily for myself.
It's just something.
I have a great relationship with my CEO that I know.
Yes, I don't know how we get these things.
You can definitely put that I'm saying this in there, but I think it's definitelysomething that uh I've talked a lot with peers about, you know, in one and one or at, you
(11:53):
know, I was recently at the troop HR retreat and it's something that comes up in terms ofjust like the CEO, uh CPO relationship.
No, that's it's I've heard that a number of times, right?
You really want to make sure you're aligned and and that they care, right?
Yeah, and not to on too much of a tangent, and I'm happy to dig into this more if you'dlike, but I think one of the themes and trends I definitely see is that chief people
(12:18):
officers, VP people that stay in their roles for a long time, almost always it's becausethe relationship with a CEO is good.
uh There's no person in my role that I know that has been able to stay a long time if theyhave a bad relationship with a CEO or if the CEO doesn't really believe.
(12:38):
in kind of like the function because it's really really hard right and honestly like whenpeople say how have you been at policy for almost five years the first thing I always say
is my relationship with the founders makes a huge difference in why I choose to stay.
100 % retention is that simple, right?
Almost to a certain extent, like if you're thinking of like executive team retention orlike things founders should know uh about it is like if you don't actually value the the
(13:11):
role and the function of people in the organization, which would be a head scratcher forsure, then then
Why even build out that department?
Why build out that team?
Why have people working towards improving it, right?
Yeah, 100%.
And I think that part of it too is definitely those relationships are built over time, butum it really needs to have that thought of like, want this person to be my partner.
(13:38):
If let's let's double click on on this actually, because it's a kind of an interestingtopic.
I know a lot of members in the community.
And I've had a lot of conversations over the last couple of weeks, just being in a bunchof different um areas of the country.
um There is this there is this uncertainty in like, not on the CPO VP level, but like whenpeople are moving their way up, it's like, they're not necessarily quite sure of how to
(14:06):
start building that relationship like
talking about somebody that's like maybe a director um or a head of or something likethat.
And they're on the track, they're on track to get into like, the executive team andwhatnot.
But they're just not quite sure how to like build that that relationship.
What what have you seen in your career?
(14:27):
What have you experienced in your career that you would recommend to those folks?
Yeah, that's such a good question, Martin.
I think a lot of people struggle with that.
I think I would have honestly first if I was talking to someone about this one on one,like a few clarifying questions, like for example, is there someone in that role today,
right?
Like are you reporting into a chief people officer or VP people that's on the executive oris there just no one in this space?
(14:49):
And maybe you're reporting into which I hear lots to like the CFO or the COO.
You don't talk to the CEO very much.
There's no people person on the executive team.
Like those setups I also have heard of a few times.
And I think when it comes to building the relationship with a CEO, I would basically kindof based on that beginning, you know what I mean?
Like what is the potential setup and structure that you have?
(15:12):
Because not every setup is the same.
And therefore my recommendation would be a little bit different.
But assuming kind of like a scenario where maybe there is no one else there on thepeople's side, right?
Like the most senior person is
you know, senior manager, director level or head of, they're not on the executive team.
No one on the people side is on the executive team.
And you're like, how do I get that C?
(15:32):
I think so much of it is trying to figure out what matters to your CEO.
And I know that seems simple, but it's saying to your CEO, hey, like, I want to make sureI'm providing the most value that I can for you and for the business.
Can I grab 30 minutes with you and pick your brain about the things that are top of mindfor you?
And
I think that sometimes it can feel intimidating to have those conversations or to saythose things.
(15:56):
But honestly, asking your CEO what they need or what they need to see more of from you,maybe what they need to see less of from you can be such a meaningful way to start to
understand how to shape that relationship.
And then you have to deliver, right?
So if they say, okay, these are like my main areas that I'm worried or concerned aboutthat I would love some support in, then I think showing that you can be that strategic
(16:20):
partner.
and help them figure out how to resolve those challenges that they're facing go such along way.
And I'm thinking, okay, actually, maybe I should have brought this person in sooner or nowgoing forward when this comes up, I know that I can count on them because look at this
amazing thing that they delivered.
Yeah.
And do you think it stems really just from putting your hand up and, or, or asking thosekind of more high level strategic long-term thinking type questions?
(16:47):
And I mean, obviously he has to come back from like results as well.
They're not necessarily going to invest time if they don't see the value in it or haven'tseen like a person doing well in the first place to a certain extent.
um, does it, is it strictly that, or is there other aspects to it?
Yeah, I mean, obviously, if you know, the CEO has a reason as to why they don't want therole on the executive team, or they don't believe in it, that may just be like a hard
(17:10):
uphill battle that may be impossible to climb.
So I think that's kind of why we say at the beginning, the situation matters so much,right?
Is it that is it actually your CEO?
Or are you reporting into someone that's like not advocating for you and not giving youthat space?
So I'm very much taking it from the perspective of like the one scenario where there isthat opportunity for you.
(17:30):
but maybe you just haven't built that relationship with your CEO.
So when I say like, um really figuring out what they need, I think that's just thestarting point, right?
Then it's, they tell you what they need, you figure out how to deliver, you go back tothem, you start building this relationship of essentially collaborating on things.
They start seeing the impact, you share lots of data, you quantify the things that you'redoing, and as they see results, you then put your hand up again, hey, we were able to work
(17:57):
on this together.
Now, has that moved the needle enough for you?
How else can we be working together more effectively?
Or what else would you need to see that would really help you in your day to day or helpour company move to the next level?
And I think really getting into the understanding of what is keeping a CEO up at night andhow you can support from the people side of things can be super valuable.
(18:23):
small, small pivot here, but it kind of relates to it in the sense that having been afounder yourself and starting a starting a company and going through that journey, to a
degree that gives you a massive edge when it comes to like, understanding what they'regoing through as well and being able to relate.
(18:47):
uh You think
that's like a critical individual experience for someone to go through in order to like,build that relationship?
Or can you do it without that?
I definitely don't think you need to be a founder to understand your founders.
I think what it did for me, to be honest, is I think being a founder and especially beinga CEO is so different than what most people think.
(19:10):
Like, especially early on, a lot of your time is spent talking to potential investors andpitching your business.
You are more outward facing.
I would say your job is closer to sales than anything else.
You're like sharing ideas, getting people to believe in you and you're doing a lot lessbuilding or you're trying to build.
whenever you possibly find free time and as things get bigger, that's where like the rolereally starts to shift and change.
(19:33):
But the CEO is always like, how are we gonna keep this business alive?
Right, they're always looking at the financials, they're always looking at runway, they'realways looking at growth, like they're really thinking at a macro level, how are we gonna
make sure that this organization not only like survives but thrives?
um And with that, think um when I think about my own journey, was it helpful to understandthat mindset?
(19:54):
Sure, like it never hurts.
But I definitely don't think it's necessary to say, start your own thing before you try toreally understand your CEO or your founders.
Right?
What in in, that moment, what should a person sort of be thinking, like, if they don'thave that, or if that's never on the like, hey, I don't have the entrepreneurial bug,
that's more for me, I want to work my way up through through the organization, I want towork in organizations, I don't want to start my own thing.
(20:21):
What are like the key things you think a person should be working on that might not beobvious.
Yeah, I mean, I think when it comes to progressing in your career, one of the biggestthings that I always say is just like, do what you say you're gonna do, being someone
that's reliable.
I know it's, again, I think a lot of these things, like they seem simple, but they're notthings that everyone showcases.
(20:45):
And if you're the person that's there when someone needs you and you're there time andtime again, and you're responsive and you don't mind that...
You know, I know there's a lot of different perspectives in terms of like after hourswork, but at the end of the day, like your CEO is likely working all the time, right?
So if you want them to see you as a partner, if they need something at like 7 PM on aTuesday and you get back to them at 7, 10 PM on the Tuesday, it's going to be much more
(21:11):
valuable for them than if they hear from you the next day, if they were working that nightthrough something that needed your input.
So I think so much of it is trade-offs too, right?
There's different moments where people choose to focus more on their
careers, where they're willing to invest in certain ways to kind of progress quickly.
And there's times where people are focusing more on other areas of their life, right?
So I always say just like, keep in mind what are your own priorities in that moment andunderstand that like, sometimes especially if you want to grow quickly in tech or the
(21:40):
startup world, and in other industries too, right?
I think that like, reliable nature and that commitment to actually showing up when someoneneeds you can go such a long
kind pivoting back to where you're at right now and a similar question like, okay, sobuilding relationship with the founders or the CEOs and the exec team relies on really
(22:06):
knowing what sort of keeping them up at night, in terms of like, yourself and your role inpolicy, meaning now, and just like the world of people and culture, what sort of what's
the big challenge on your plate right now from from your perspective?
Yeah, I think that, em and you know, I'm happy to talk a lot about this because we'vetalked about it little bit before, but I think AI is moving so quickly.
(22:31):
And I would say I'm someone that has been in it from pretty early stages.
Like I was building GPTs before Chad GPT had the ability to build GPTs with differenttools.
And I would say I my journey in like 2023.
towards the end of 2023 and then into 24 really started to supercharge more.
(22:51):
We're in 2026, but like the tools I was using originally are totally different than thetools that I'm using now.
Like I'm in cloud code, building apps for myself, for my team, helping us like deployfaster things that we need or things that were manual.
Like how can we build tools around them that are specific for us?
But I think one of the things that I see is like this, the speed that it's moving at andthe time available that we all have to learn.
(23:17):
are not aligned because I would say like as an executive, I have so much that I need toget through in a day and a week and a month.
And at the same time now I've added this layer of I want to be the most AI literateversion of myself that I can be.
And as an executive team, uh we made our own OKR for Q2 that everyone would ship somethingwith cloud code, like a functioning app.
(23:42):
like I've done a few already.
But again, it takes time because the things that you build when you're a non-technicalperson, learning to vibe code, learning to launch things for the first time, like they're
not perfect.
And I would say things that keep me up at night is not only how do I upscale, but how do Iupscale my whole team?
How do I make sure we have access to the right tools?
What about data privacy?
(24:03):
What about all of our employees information?
You we are in an insurance company, so we're super intentional in how we move and how wegive people access to things.
So it's this like constant balance of
wanting to move fast, wanting to innovate, but also understanding that like, can't, thereis such a thing as moving too quickly with tools and technologies that we don't
understand.
Yeah.
(24:24):
Is it?
Is it too simple to just think like, oh, so like the old school, I'm not old school makesprobably not the right way to put it.
But like, Google was like, they had the 8020 rule or not the 8020.
But like, four days a week, you're working on Google.
And the fifth day out of the week, Google's letting you build or create your own thing andkind of just be creative.
(24:45):
And it was like,
specific to the business, but like give you that freedom in space.
And I don't know how much they honored it or not.
But it's like, is it as simple as like, all right, AI is here, it's moving crazy fast.
You have half a day every week, where the expectation is to like learn it from from yourperspective.
Is that a good strategy?
(25:06):
Is that a right strategy?
Have you employed it?
Yeah, I think it can totally depend on the organization.
You know, I think also there's there's a difference between learning and just like whatyou're doing to learn and understand the tools and how to build versus like actually
building things that add value to the business.
And I would say a lot of our last year, so a lot of 2025 at policy and you was just spenton let's get people in there.
(25:31):
Let's get people learning.
Let's get people trying tools.
Let's get people to
really be AI literate.
And we wrapped up the year last year in November with a Hack AI-thon where we had teamssit with their home team and build something by the end of the day with like engineering
managers going around for the day and supporting as needed.
(25:51):
But it was such a good thing to work towards because in advance we had everyone do someprep work and like make sure that they were able to use the tools that they needed for the
day.
So I think that part of it is, uh
balancing the learning with like, what do you actually need to build that adds businessvalue, realizing that you can't do this if people don't learn.
(26:11):
So I don't know, I don't know that Martin that there's like a perfect balance of how tooffer it.
And I also think it depends by team, right?
Like I would say our engineering team is spending a lot more time with AI than other partsof the business, but it makes sense, right?
Because when you think about it from a development standpoint, they're the ones that canbuild the
(26:32):
version of our agentic workforce that is easiest to understand and deploy fastest.
So what I mean by that is, you can now build basically an agentic software developer,right?
Like you can build an AI software developer that is building or that is doing essentiallylike debugging when there is a bug, they can check for the bug and understand what's
(26:53):
happening and give you solutions and recommendations and even deploy those, right?
But it's because it's code-based, it's more like, em
The way I think of it is like, it's math, right?
Like you can be like, yes, they figured out the answer, but it's so much more different tosay we're gonna build like an AI based people and culture specialist that's gonna answer
(27:14):
all of your questions when I'm not sure what it's gonna say in which scenario, even if youtrain it because it's nuanced, right?
So I think that we're there for some things and not for other things and it's gonna keepchanging.
What's one of the things that yourself or your team has built that your has just had likethe biggest return for either your team's work day to day or like, you know, the impact to
(27:41):
the company overall, like that kind of surprised you.
Like you, you were building it or the team was building it and you're like, this is goingto be useful and helpful.
And the end result was like, my God, like how, did we not build this sooner?
Why didn't we think of this sooner?
Is there anything like
I think that to be honest, we're getting there.
Like I think most businesses are still in the process of like the biggest returns on theinvestment from AI because I think we're still in this learning bucket.
(28:09):
There's a number of things that we've built and launched.
But again, we don't have like, I would say an agentic people and culture team member thatis like really a part of the team yet.
I'm sure in the future there will be some version of this.
But I can share a couple things.
I mean, we've had some for years now.
So one of the first things we built um with, like basically it was a GPT at the time, butagain, the first version I built was pre-GPTs was a job description generator, which um
(28:36):
honestly over the years now has saved us so much time.
Like when you think about simple things like building one for your team, if you don't haveone, it literally at this point in time takes you about five minutes to build with Chad
GPT.
Like you can build your own GPT.
You give it a few examples of your JD.
You give it the format, you give it the output you want.
you like so easy to build these at the time it was more novel.
(28:57):
But over the years, like this is how we start all of our job descriptions.
We don't do drafts anymore.
And I would say people like how did we do them in the past?
You used to go to LinkedIn, see what other jobs were live that were similar to what youwanted to do and post.
And you would take some of that information, you do some brainstorming, but it used totake time to create these drafts.
And now it takes like 30 seconds or less because you're putting it out there and thenediting.
(29:20):
So that I would say is like such a simple one.
that we built a few years ago now that definitely, when you think about like investment oftime to build versus like time saved, definitely one that kind of looks like that.
That's nice.
No, the, yeah.
Like when you think about it, like, I mean, I remember like having been a recruiter for 15years, like the, the amount of times like you're stalled on progress just because you
(29:47):
haven't had the time to get a JD out the door.
And you're like, that keeps coming up.
And meanwhile you're doing screening calls and doing intake intakes and everything likethat.
That's all just been like consolidated down.
that's
That's a great one.
um
have a ton of other examples.
Like we built a performance review assistant a few years ago now.
So basically, so that when you're writing feedback, helps with tone structure.
(30:11):
I think a lot of managers struggle to like get written feedback, right?
So we taught the GPT, our feedback models, how to give good feedback.
And then it really helps managers through the process.
So that was another one.
So there's been like tons of like apps and tools that we've built just to
make people's experiences better, I would say.
(30:33):
um In terms of the so like, what's really interesting is you were, you mentioned a coupletimes now, but like, building GPT's before GPT's were like codified is there's an element
to that that suggests and from the sounds of it, like, you're well ahead of the curb interms of like, you're not waiting for
(31:00):
things to like fall into your lap in order to be like, okay, I understand this and I wantto do this.
And there's one thing understanding it.
And then there's another thing of like implementing it.
What what are you keeping an eye on right now?
Just even just for yourself with all the AI stuff, like what are are there specific toolsthat you're really excited about concepts or frameworks?
Like, what are the things that like you're reading up on right now?
(31:23):
Yeah, great question.
I mean, I would say the most life of all the things I've done in the last few years, themost life changing, um, and no one's going to say this is definitely Claude code, but I
want to explain why.
So I, I do think in this moment in time still to go in terminal, which is like whatdevelopers use, there is like a small barrier to entry, which like I say small, but maybe
(31:47):
it's not that small for non-technical people because it's things we don't know how to do.
Right.
Like I had never like.
Martin, I don't know if you've done it.
Have you gone into terminal on your computer?
have.
Okay.
Yeah.
But you know what I mean, right?
Like it's one of those things that it's like, yeah, exactly.
Like it's a whole new operate.
It's a new whole new way of operating.
You're, going in there and like it, you know, you're starting to code with cloud code andto build apps and to learn how to like integrate API's, how to add different keys for
(32:17):
things, how to like,
understand JSON files and like what's good and what's bad and why did this break and tolike troubleshoot for yourself and to be like, okay, how can I actually deploy this?
Like how do I make this live?
What are the different ways you can host things?
What's safe?
What's not safe?
I just think it, um it really has changed my perspective on a lot of things that I justdidn't really understand before because I didn't have the opportunity to understand
(32:43):
before.
because I don't have a background in software development.
like we joke internally that I'm like our most junior software developer now at Polysumyas well.
Just because like I feel like to your point, like I've been like a little bit ahead of thecurve the whole time.
So the first time I, our CTO and I co-lead our AI strategy in our company, we decided thisat the end of 2024, launched it in 2025.
(33:04):
So that also really helped just because him and I have been very tied at the hip in termsof what are we doing?
How are we going about it?
How are we making sure?
employees are really a part of the journey.
um But I, and another engineering manager, when we chat about certain things, they'relike, wow, you're really like starting to ask like the questions that our junior engineers
(33:26):
ask, you know, around like, why is this this way?
Or like, why isn't this working?
uh And I think it's just very interesting.
And when you say like, what am I keeping an eye on?
Or like, where do I look for things?
I am very fortunate that we have
An AI guild internally, meet every six weeks now.
We used to meet every three weeks last year when we were really building.
Now every six weeks, we demo what we've all built.
(33:48):
I'm surrounded by humans that are incredibly insightful and really driving AI forwardwithin their roles.
And we all get to learn from each other.
So that's been just a fantastic way internally to stay ahead of the curve and alsounderstand what's important for us as business.
So if I'm listening to this and I have been on the fence or like waiting outside the doorthinking like, there's this whole crazy party, but it's intimidating.
(34:16):
I don't want to go in there.
I don't know how to dance kind of deal.
I don't know anyone in this room, kind of like the, analogy of just being intimidated byAI and like, um, what, what could you leave with those people still throw like listening
like, man, it sounds so cool what Vanessa is doing, but like,
I'm still just so intimidated.
Like, where should they start?
What should they do?
(34:37):
Yeah, I know this is a funny suggestion, but pick whichever you're most excited to try, beit Chadgy, BT, if you haven't, but most people have, Claude.
would say just like go into Claude AI and say, hi, I'm new to this.
I don't know how to get started.
This is what my role is.
These are what my fears are.
I'm looking to learn.
Like, how do I start?
(34:58):
And I think what's cool about all of these new tools is like they'll walk you througheverything, right?
When I think about how have I been able to learn so much or try.
so much.
It's because when you get stuck you say that, like, how do I move forward?
Right?
Like, help me find a way forward.
Or like, I don't know how to do this.
Can you help me figure it out?
And it does.
And like, I would say, you know, AI is very helpful in helping humans understand how touse AI.
(35:24):
If, you know, you're approaching it in the right way and asking it like thoughtfulquestions.
Also, if you ask it basic questions too.
I'm not saying listen to everything AI says, but when it comes to the...
that initial barrier to entry, like how do I get started if I haven't yet, I would say allof your questions that you maybe are like, I shouldn't be asking these anymore, I should
know the answer, just go ask Claude, go ask Chachi BT, em because it feels like a safe wayto kind of enter the space.
(35:49):
sounds very fair.
Awesome.
Well, honestly, it feels like in three or six months, you'll have a bunch of differentanswers or a bunch of different updates, given the way the speed of things are going that
that really relates.
I just want to say thanks for making time for this conversation today.
I really appreciate it.
Excited to continue.
(36:10):
Yeah, of course.
Happy to share back anytime, give you updates, Martin.
It's always lovely to chat.
Likewise.
Awesome.
Take care.
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