Allison King (The Phoenix Pencil Company) feat. Jeff Hiller, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason b Litman,and on today's episode I have
Allison King talking to me abouther book, the Phoenix Pencil
Company, which is this month'sReese's Book Club Pick.

(00:46):
And today's guest, gay reader isthe delightful Jeff Hiller, who
you know from HBO's somebodysomewhere or Max or whatever,
and.
Jeff also has a new memoir outcalled Actress of a Certain Age,
so you can check that out aswell.

(01:08):
Both books are out now and bothof their bios are in the show
notes.
I was out protesting this pastweekend, what an insane and
important experience that was.
I had some feelings about it,and so I wrote a little essay
that I put up on the gay'sreading Substack, and you could
check that out basically abouthow.
Reading is radical and can be aform of protest.

(01:30):
And I don't know, I was having alittle bit of feelings about the
people who say they're allies orthe people who say they're
supportive but don't actuallyshow it in their actions and
how, you know, people don'tnecessarily always know how to
show these things, uh, butthey're really performing acts
of activism behind the scenesthat we don't necessarily see.
So anyway, just some, somenoodling thoughts about that.

(01:53):
And in case you missed it, theGaze Reading book Love is
officially here.
I am partnering with Altoa.
I am so excited.
Every month I'm going to choosea new book written by an lgbtqia
plus author.
Uh, your first book you can getfor$1, and then every month
after that.

(02:13):
A book curated by yours trulywill end up on your front porch
or wherever your packages getdelivered in the very first
month.
We're kicking off in July withDisappoint Me by Nicola Dine.
It's so great and I cannot waitto chat with you.
You'll become a part of a chatgroup and lots of fun ways to

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participate, and, and meetfellow book lovers in this
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So the TLDR support lgbtqia plusauthors first book is the
Dollar.

(02:54):
There's a whole community ofreaders and donate a kid's book.
Awesome.
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(03:40):
So thank you to those who havedone so.
Uh, and finally, since this is abook about pencils, I have to
shout out the fantastic longhandpencils and Casey Baldwin who
owns her own little pencilcompany.
I love her pencil so much.
This is not an ad.
I mentioned in the episode thatit was her pencils that really

(04:00):
got me on a pencil kick, so Ijust wanted to shout her out.
I highly recommend checking themout.
Long hand pencils.
Dot com and also longhandpencils on Instagram.
There are such great quotes frombooks.
Um, I have the set from, you'vegot Mail.
I have a set from Hocus Pocus.

(04:21):
I am obsessed with these pencilsand I can't wait for you to
check them out too.
Alright, without further ado,please enjoy my conversations
with Allison King and JeffHiller.

Jason Blitman (04:32):
welcome to Gay's Reading.

Allison King (04:34):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.

I'm so happy to have you to talk about the
Phoenix Pencil Company.
Gorgeous book cover.

Thank you.
Yeah.
That cover is audio.
Did such a good job.

and I just saw you posted the UK cover, which
is also beautiful.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the one that I have nextto me right now.
So we can show that one too.

Oh, how fun.

look at that.

Every once in a while, a UK cover is maybe
better than the American cover,but I have to say these are both
equally great.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I think they both went differentways in good ways, but they both
definitely focused on thepencil, which is cool.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Let's kick it off with an elevator pitch for the
book.
Do you have one?

I do.
Yeah.
So the book is, it focuses on a.
Young woman.
she's an engineer and she's homefrom college for the semester to
take care of her aginggrandparents.
And while she is home, shediscovers this long forgotten
magic behind the pencil companythat her grandmother once ran in

(05:35):
1940s Shanghai.
So half of the book is writtenfrom this young.
Engineer's point of view inmodern day Cambridge,
Massachusetts.
And the other half of the bookis written from her
grandmother's point of view.
Set in 1940s, 1950s Shanghai,Taiwan, and a little bit of the
United States.

And I that is very succinct and doesn't give
anything away.

I'm glad.

So a lot of, I, I don't want to give too much away
from the book.
Obviously we are spoiler free ongaze reading, so I'm gonna as I
was prepping for this, a lot ofmy questions are related to
things in the book withoutgiving things away.

Ooh, okay.

I'll leave it at that.
To start, I have to know, do youread the terms and conditions?

I do not know.
No,

Thank you for being honest.

It's too much.
And I briefly worked at anon-profit startup that did its
best to humanize the terms andconditions, but even that's too
much.
It's too hard.

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad
thing.
The book, asks a lot ofquestions of technology.
Um, And changing technology.
And I think, the age of AI rightnow, you see a lot of parallels
in the story.
But you gave me this sort oflight bulb moment.
At some point in the middle ofthe book, I was like, oh, I
could just put terms andconditions into chat GPT and

(06:59):
have it synthesize it for me.
And I was like, that's maybegenius slash really problematic,
but I just wanted you to knowthat inspired it.

Wow.
Yeah.
No I had never thought to dothat either.

So You're welcome.

Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'll probably still be toolazy to even copy and paste
there

I know but I have to also say that the book made
me realize just how important itis to read the terms and
conditions.
Which I think you always know,like it's a thing, but

trust any of these.

When did you fall in love with technology?

Oh, um,

any of them.

yeah.
I think I actually had a prettysimilar experience to Monica
where my dad also worked inChina, starting when I was
pretty young and we kept intouch through email.
So Monica has this.
Moment of, I think hers is alittle more dramatic, but at
this moment of being able to, ofbeing able to email her father

(07:52):
from all the way across theworld.
And she's younger than I am, butI guess when I was doing it,
like email was a pretty.
New thing, at least to themasses.
And so it was cool to be able tosign onto the shared computer,
the whole family owned, andemail my dad.
So yeah, I think that's probablywhen it started.

The origin story of your love technology.
I know the shared familycomputer thing.

It's wild to think about now.
Yeah.

up trauma.
Yeah, and then dial up all ofthat.
Early on in the book there's amention of homemade gifts and I
Why do you think we all madethose coupon books for our loved
ones?
Like I assume you did.

probably, I don't remember if I have made it the
more recently for my partnerbut.
I don't know if I ever did forlike my parents or my
grandparents.
I don't remember, but I guess italways seemed to me like a good
idea, and especially because Itry not to get gifts that will
let somebody accumulate a lot ofstuff that they may or may not

(08:59):
want.

Yeah.
No, that's fair.
Coupon books were big in myfamily too, but I don't think we
ever used them.

oh, yeah.

recall a

the same with me.
Yeah.

your partner has not turned has, they've not
turned one in.

Nope.
Not yet.
Yeah, it's just sits there as alittle momentum.
'cause I like drew cartoons ofme doing stuff, and I think
that's more of the appeal thanthe actual coupon.

That's amazing slash I.
Yeah.
Anyway, I just that came up inthe book and it made me think
about.
How often we probably do thingslike that.
And then I'm curious to knowwhat the turn in ratio is or of
the, of everyone's coupon books.

I guess it's the embodiment of like the thought
is what counts so.

that's true.
I know.
And then could you imagine didyou put anything in there that
you wouldn't want to do or thatyou thought oh, they're never
gonna ask me to do this,

they were all things I didn't wanna do.
They were all exercise oriented.
'cause my partner is big intoexercise.
I'm not.
So it was things like, we'llplay tennis together or we'll
play basketball again.

So it's a good thing

Yeah.
It is a good thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.

I obviously fell down a major pencil, rabbit
hole,

Hmm.

Because first of all, I.
Learning about how they're madein the book.
And then I found a bunch ofYouTube videos that like showed
you how they're made.
And so that was super cool.
There are lots of great YouTubevideos.
FYII also feel like I'm in apencil era right now.

Oh, really?
Tell me more.
So there's this great companycalled Longhand Pencils, and
they, there are these quotesfrom books and movies, and this
woman, Casey, she makes allthese little sets of pencils I.
Okay.

she has this really great company and I've
purchased'em from her and I'mlike, I don't know.
I'm just always using pencils.
Are you a pencil person?

Um, Not as much as you might think.

No.
That's okay.
Just because you wrote aboutthem doesn't mean that

yeah.

love them.
I just, I

I do,

a pencil era.

I do love them and and, but I think that I don't
use them as much as I didgrowing up and in school
especially.
I use them a lot in college,especially on all my.
Anything math related.
But after I stopped doing math,I didn't have to use pencils.

It's funny that you say that because I really
like.
Pencils felt like a thing of thepast to me, I don't know what it
was that made me, I think,'causethese had like really cute
quotes on them that made me wantto use them and then I just like
really enjoyed writing with themanyway, I have no idea.
But that was

no, that's great.
Yeah.
Oh, I'm so happy for you.

thank you watching some of these YouTube
videos though.
It was so interesting to seeabout.
To learn about thesustainability of the wood, and
just like all of the things thatgo into making pencils that you
don't even realize

Yeah.

factory was in your family too.

it was, yeah, and I don't know that much.
About the actual manufacturingprocess of that company.
But I do remember my grandmotherwould tell me stories and for
some reason the one that stickswith me is like when they
actually pressed the wood ontothe graphite and like in case
it, and she was very, I dunno,she was very specific about that
part for some reason.

Yeah.

But yeah, they had a pencil company in China first
and then, following World War IIis when they moved it to Taiwan.
So it's actually a littledifferent from in the book.
It does, the same thing happensin the book, but my grandparents
actually went quite a bitearlier thinking that it was
more of a opportunity to expandthe pencil company as opposed to

(12:34):
fleeing the war.
So,

Interesting.
Because of the nature of thestory, which we'll get into in a
minute, I, I don't know what itwas.
And I realized I think thismorning that I had a piece of
graphite in my hand from when Iwas a kid, because I feel like
that was all of us at some pointas young people.
I don't know if that everhappened to you, but I like got
stabbed with a pencil in my handand had a piece of graphite in

(12:57):
my hand for

It's still there.

It's like very.
Very light, but up until a fewyears ago, I could like still
see it,

Yeah.
Yeah.

was sort of astonishing to me.

yeah, I didn't really know that was I think I
saw a video about that recentlythat kind of just stays with
you.
And I, I didn't realize thatwhen I wrote the book, but it
works with what happens in the

Totally.
I don't wanna give too muchaway, but can you describe a
little bit about.
The Reforging and how that ideacame to you.
'cause I find it so unique interms of a storytelling device.

Thanks.
Yeah, so when I first startedwriting the book, it was more I
had, I was interested in thetime period and I wanted to
write about a a family of pencilmakers in that time period.
And, and then at the time I hadbeen writing a lot more fantasy
or speculative fiction, and so Iwanted to give it some

(13:55):
speculative element.
And that was what naturallycame, where I guess when you're
trying to think of a speculativeelement, it boils down to what
about this pencil or otherobject is like the coolest thing
that could happen to it?
And I think the, like thecoolest thing about a pencil to
me is that it writes stories orit has this relationship with

(14:17):
the writer that only it has andor like other writing utensils
will have as well.
But that's what I wanted toexplore a bit, and so I thought.
Okay.
What if other people couldaccess the stories that a pencil
once wrote, and how does thatchange things?
And then that kind of justmerged with all the other things

(14:39):
of the book.

Sure.
What I find so interesting aboutit is that it's not, I use the
word storytelling device, whichI guess is true, but it's not.
It's just this, part of theworld.

Mm.
Mm-hmm.

World of the book and it isn't explained or
described, and there's not likea lore behind it.
It's just you tell us that thishappens and we believe it as the
reader because that's it.
And I think that's a super coolway of including it as a part of
the story.

Oh, thank you.
Yeah, I wanted it to be likethis kind of neutral power that
was just hanging out that ran inthe family, but.
It was up to the family, whetheror not they would tell like
their descendants about thepower.
And but I want it to be neutralbecause I think like it doesn't
necessarily give them greatskills or or it does give them

(15:30):
like a cool thing that they cando, but it's up to them, like
how they use it.
And it can be used for likereally cool things or really bad
things.

Was there ever anything like that in your
family where it was up to.
Your elders to pass on somethingto you that, or share with you
that you may or may not havelearned otherwise.
That was a piece of you.

Probably, learning Chinese for instance, that's
probably one of them where Ithink it was something that.
My parents very much wanted meand my brother to, to pick up on
and learn, but a lot of it, it'sstill up to like me and how much
I wanted to devote to doingsomething that's pretty
difficult.
I think about it with recipestoo, because my grandmother was

(16:16):
a great cook and she like cookedeverything, but then once she
had Alzheimer's, a lot of thoserecipes were just lost because
none of the kids learned

Yeah, I'm sure recipes and food is a big is a
big piece of it for a lot ofpeople.

Yeah.

I know that a lot of my aunts and uncles are.
Upset that they didn't learn howto make a very specific thing
that my great-grandmother made.
And it's lost to history now.

yeah, Yeah.
That's how my mom and hersiblings feel too, I think.

you know, You were talking about pencils and
how they write stories.
The book is an inherently aboutstories and storytelling and I
think similar to technology.
When did you fall in love withstories?

Oh.
Very early on, I think where itwas like my grandmother would
read me stories to.
To sleep.
So I have like very clearmemories of me being maybe like
four or five and in bed.
And my grandmother, they had alittle futon.
She would lie on next to me andthen she would be reading a
Chinese story and I would justfall asleep to that.

(17:20):
So yeah, that's probably how itstarted.

Are there any stories that you recall
impacting you as a kid?

Yeah.
I was very into Red Wall.
So

I

I was like super into, oh, red Wall, the Brian
Jacques with the mice and I,there's like a whole series of
'em.
But they're

I'm a late in life reader, so anything like,
anything that came out before,basically eight years ago, I
have not picked up.

yeah, it is on the older side, but there are a lot
of them.
So maybe some of them came out.
No, they probably didn't comeout within the last eight years,
but they were coming out at apretty steady clip and I would
ask for them for Christmas andread them.
But yeah, they're like littlemice and woodland creature
warriors.
It's very fun.

Something said in the book is that stories are
priceless and.
It had me thinking a lot aboutstories that we tell and stories
that we share and what storiesare preserved and how we adapt
our own stories or how we hearand interpret other people's
stories but also how preservingstories is not.

(18:27):
It's not always a good thing.
And so it made me think aboutthe difference between
preserving stories versusreleasing memories and what's
important to keep versus thingsthat are happening to you in
your life that are worthpurging.
Does any of that mean anythingto you?

Yeah, I think a lot about it in terms of I think
there are stories that I wouldlike to share, but with
different, at like differentlevels of, sharing.
So there are some that I wouldonly like to share with like my
family or that I would only liketo share with my friends.

(19:06):
And and then maybe that circlegets really wide and some of it
is stuff that I'm happy to sharepublicly.
But I think, yeah, I think a lotof the, what I was exploring
here was that with the internetthe, almost the default is very
public.
And if I wanted to sendsomething to just my friends, I
have to find all their emailsbasically and put it all

(19:30):
together.
Or if I have curated my closefriends list on Instagram or
something, which I have notdone.
But I think there's there's notthat many levels of openness on
the internet.
It's like.
Everyone gets it, or like a verysmall number of people get it.
And I think that's I think inthe book I wanted to explore oh,

(19:50):
this is something that I thinkthis grandmother would want,
like her granddaughter to know,but not necessarily anyone other
than that.

Yeah.
It puts an interesting pressureis maybe the word the
granddaughter to be the one tokeep that story alive, right?
So there is like that element ofpreserving the story, but also
if the audience is limited, thenit also in turn limits the
number of people who cancontinue to tell it.

(20:17):
So there's that interestingbalance too,

Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's a good

a story sacred Keeping it alive

Yeah.
Yeah.
And I wonder if once, thegrandmother passes away and it's
not a story that can hurt heranymore.
Do you recalculate it then andthink okay, maybe it is okay to
share it more, or if it'ssomething that you keep forever?
I don't know.
It's just something to thinkabout.

'cause then you're doing that, the calculus
of, Why was it so sacred in thefirst place?
There's a quote that in thebook, it's about sharing enough
of ourselves to form true realconnections.
And I was so intrigued by theenough of ourselves, and I'm
curious, what is enough to you?
Like, how do you, what's thelevel of learning about someone

(21:05):
that means that you can have areal connection with them?

Oh no.
I don't know.
I think it's, I think it'sdifferent for everyone.

you wrote that Allison.
You got me thinking about it.

Yeah, sorry about that.
I think it depends I thinkthere's people you want in your
lives for different reasons.
Like they fill in differentneeds for you.
And I think it's like youshouldn't need to know
everything about somebody tomake it feel like you, you're
like friends with them or,'causeI feel like I'm friends with

(21:37):
some people that I don'tactually know all that well, but
when we hang out, it's like funand I have a good time.

Yeah

I think that's perfectly fine too.

No, I understand that The best thing to do when
you're sad is to learn somethingor to teach something.

I stole that from a different book

You did.

I did.
Yes.
Or the inspiration first fromthe Once and Future King by TH
White.
I don't know if you've readthat.
It wasn't published in the lasteight years, so maybe not.

it's actually so funny because, no, I haven't
read that, but Lev Grossman wason gay's reading to talk about
the bright

Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I'm a big Love Grossman fan aswell.
And I love the bright sword.
But

It's actually funny.
That was gonna be one of myguesses for one of the books
behind you'cause of the

oh, it's actually not, I read it on my e-readers

Okay, Whatever book is at the bottom, whatever
that blue book is at the bottomhas the same color

Oh, it does.
It's actually it's actually JayLegacy.
It's actually two copies of Jay

Oh, how funny.

Yeah.

So you stole that from the Once in Future King,
but I'm curious what.
Is there something that yourecall learning in a time when
you quote unquote needed towhether you were sad or, was
there something that learn wherelearning helped you in that way?
I.

Yeah, I think so.
There was a moment where, justlike last year or, yeah, I think
it was last year where I wasbetween jobs and I was doing my
edits for this book, but itwasn't like taking up my whole
day and I was struggling withother writing and I just had too
much time, really.
Which feels weird to say now,but

Do you not have enough time now?

I.
No I have, I don't know, I'mvery happy with how things are
now, but but I guess it soundslike an ungrateful thing to say
that I had too much time at thatpoint and I was just aimless and
not really sure what I wasdoing.
And so I, I do I code I'm asoftware engineer and I was
between jobs at the time, onpurpose to focus more on the
book for a few months.

(23:34):
And then, but then I.
I found that I couldn't feel mywhole day writing.
It was too tiring and or evenreading.
And so I started coding againand coding like just for fun and
learning about, I don't know,the latest in like CSS.
And I feel like that reallymotivated me some more and made

(23:55):
me feel happy again.

You and my husband the same.

really?

He'll be like doing something.
I'm like, what are you doing?
He's I'm learning for

Yeah, it's fun.

I'm coding for fun.
I'm working on a project forfun.
I'm like, okay.
What was that journey like foryou from, you're still a
software engineer, but goturning from incorporating
writing into your life as well.

Yeah.
So I feel like I've always beenwriting since I was pretty
young.
And.
It was when I was in collegethat really engineering took
over.
And so I didn't get to do thatmuch writing while I was
studying.
But then once I was out ofcollege, I had a lot more time
and started writing again.
Mostly at nights and onweekends.

(24:39):
So yeah, I just doing that.
I think I've been pretty luckywith my.
Software jobs that they've had,like pretty good work life
balance.
So I was able to pull that off.
But yeah,

Do you find that if diving headfirst into coding
helps when you're maybe sad orneed to have escape, does
writing.
Balance that too.
If coding is not the rightmoment for you

I don't know.
I

the face says no.
The, your face is Nope, thewriting is stressful.
Let me go back to coding.

Yeah.
'Cause, because writing it's,you are like so in your head
about it for a very long timeand no one is telling you
whether you are doing well ornot until you like share it with
people.
But sometimes I feel like Ican't share it yet'cause it's
not good enough yet.

Sorry.

And so I'm just in my own.
Cycle of self-doubt.
And whereas with coding like youget pretty immediate feedback on
if your code works or not, andit feels good when your code
does work.
And if you're a coding for likeas part of a company that makes
a product then you have likeusers who tell you how you're

(25:48):
doing and you have yourteammates who tell you if
you're.
Code is like off to par or not.
And I feel like that's, I thinkthat was something that I was
missing when I was between jobswhere I didn't feel like I was
making like noticeable progresson a lot of things.
And I think that was what kindof had me a little dismayed.

Sure.
No, that makes sense.
It's hard working in a sort ofsolo operation as.
A person who hosts a podcast byhimself can tell you.
Is there, do you seestorytelling in coding?

Yeah in some senses.
I think it depends what it is.
Like a lot of the time you'rejust I don't know.
You're building a component to adesigner specifications and
that's pretty straightforwardand you're.
Doing that, but there's alwayslike the user story of like how
the component will be used.
And you can always think aboutlike different users using it

(26:46):
and what, like how they mightland on the page and how they
might interact with the whateveryou're building in different
ways.
I think more often for me,because I don't I'm not really
in a user facing role.
It's more about how do I explainthe code that I've just written
to my teammates who are.
Deepen their own work silos and,but then they have to come and

(27:07):
review my code.
So it's a matter of presentinglike why my thing matters and
why it should be merged into thecode base.

Yeah, that makes sense.
My husband is not in a userfacing position either.
It's a lot about like business

Oh, interesting.

Yeah.
Anyway, so a lot of like behindthe scenes stuff,

Mm-hmm.

the book is talks about, I'll say in quotes,
memory work.

Mm.
Mm-hmm.

Work mean to you?

Yeah, so I think memory work has a real
definition.

Oh, tell me what is memory Work?

I would have to look it up to get the exact
definition, but it's somethingwithin digital archiving and, or
not necessarily digitalarchiving, but archiving in
general.
And if I remember correctly,which I am not an archivist.
That makes sense.
So this is some research that Idid on my own, but it's about

(28:03):
kind of recording things butkeeping in mind that you are
leaving out perspectives andtrying to keep in mind what
those perspectives might mean,might be, and how.
If you did have them, like howthings would change within that
within what you are recording.

The very reliable resource Wikipedia.
Memory work is a process ofengaging with the past, which
has both an ethical andhistorical dimension.
During memory work, the processof producing an image or what we
refer to as the production ofthe imagery is central.
Therefore, the key in theanalysis of remembering history
are contradictions.
The calls for an expandingarchive that include the oral

(28:41):
and popular tradition, as wellas written traditions normally
associated with the archives.
It's like far

Yeah,

than I was expecting.

that sounds right.

It just had me thinking so much about our
memory and like the idea of amind without memory comes up in
the book and I, and it just Iwas like, what does that even
seem feel like?
Or what is that?
What is that?
Is our, does our mind existwithout memory?

Yeah.
I don't know.
It's, yeah, I think that'ssomething that a lot of people
who are smarter than I am havewondered and like at what point
are you still yourself?
And I think there's also somediscussions of I think a lot of
literature representsAlzheimer's as.
Oh, that person is still there.

(29:28):
They come back every so oftenand they are still who they are,
even if their personality haschanged a lot.
And'cause Alzheimer's can changetheir personality like really
quite a bit.
As opposed to viewing it as likea transformation of oh, this is
what this person, how thisperson is now and this is who
they are now.
And accepting that versus likestill trying to clinging onto

(29:50):
who they used to be.

Yeah.
And it, that's such aninteresting concept because our.
Are we who we are because of ourmemories, because of the pieces
that have made us who we are.
What does that mean?
Like my niece is two and a half,but she has like a full blown
personality, so she doesn't havethat many memories, but she's

(30:12):
still like a very much a person.
And I can imagine that sort ofwill be the.
The sort of heart of who she isforever Just'cause that's what I
could see.
So it just really had methinking a lot about that.
Like we don't, I'm just youdon't need to have a real answer
in terms of a philosophy book,but what does Allison think?
What do you feel like you aremade up of your memories?

(30:35):
Does that make you who you are?

I think so, but in a way, I think it's a societal
thing.
I guess a social pressure for mewhere like I might wake up one
day and say, I wanna be like areally good weightlifter.
And then I'll start like hittingthe gym and like lifting a bunch
of weights.
But at the same time, I think Imight think, oh, but that's not

(30:58):
who I am.
That's not the story that I havecome to think of myself.
Like I am, I'm a softwareengineer.
I sit at my computer and I code.
Like it would be weird if I juststarted lifting weights and but

Would it

I think once.
No, I think it, it actually Iactually do with weights but I
think it did take me a while tocome to terms with that and be
like, this is healthy for me andI should do it.

I, this is like a humble brag, but Anne Patchett
was on gay's reading and I likesaid something like that to her
and she said, you are the story,you tell yourself and I that I
have that in my mind everysingle day because I.
What is the story I'm tellingmyself?
I had an interestingconversation with a handful of
people about earrings, and I waslike, for some reason inspired

(31:43):
to get earrings, but I was like,I don't think I'm a person.
I'm not the guy who getsearrings.
And then I had this crisis ofwhy am I not the guy that gets
earrings?
And what does that mean?
Long story short, I've sincepierced my ears.

Hey, nice.
I can't see your ears, but I'msure they look great.

But Right.
Along the lines of what you'retalking about, there is that
weird societal pressure slashexpectation and is the past
Jason and the memories andquotes of Jason, does that make
up who I am?
And does that mean I'm notallowed to get earrings?
I don't know.

Yeah.
I think it's for the same reasonthat sometimes you're more
comfortable sharing like detailsabout your life with total
strangers compared to familymembers where.
Like you have this thought ofhow your family thinks of you
and that colors the way that youthink that you can share things

(32:35):
that might upend thatexpectation.
Yeah.

I have this compulsion to say, is there
anything you wanna share thatyour family doesn't know?
But this is, this podcast iseventually gonna go somewhere
and they might

Maybe not in this medium.
Yeah.

so funny.
There's also something aboutmemories that comes up about
someone says, if only I couldpick and choose the memories
that I keep.
What would you choose to keep?

I think my brain does a pretty good job of
throwing out the memories Idon't want.

Yeah.
Oh, I'm

so I think it's doing a good job.

Really?
Are you telling me you don'thave any trauma?

No, I definitely do, but I think it does a good
job of I don't know, focusing onother stuff and and I think
that, yeah, I think something Iwas exploring in the book is
like how much forgetting is goodversus bad.
Where I think a lot of I thinkin tech, certainly like
everything, the more you can,like the more data you have, the

(33:33):
better for tech purposes, for,the big tech corporations.
Whereas that's not true of thehuman mind.
There's stuff that youdefinitely do want to forget.
I remember, I think this was KenLu said that it'd be cool if
Twitter just deleted your posts.
That were like more than fiveyears old.
That's not really, that mightnot be who you are anymore.

Yeah.

And if you were to go back and look at your Twitter
posts from five years ago, youmight be surprised too.

Absolutely.
Slash is it, do we want to getrid of those pieces of us?
And that sort of like cyclesback to our memories making us
who we are.
And then of course there's thequestion of like you said, your
brain is good at forgetting thethings that aren't worth
remembering, but do you actuallyforget?
Are they like,

Oh yeah.
No, I'm, they're all there.

You know what I mean?
It's all there.
So what does that even reallymean?
Are we having an existentialcrisis?

Yeah, no, no crisis right now, but, um, but

having anti existential crisis?

it's okay.
It's okay.
I think it is all about like aslong I think what I mean by it,
when I say that my brain's goodat forgetting is that I think
I'm good at telling the storyabout myself and then.
And then anything that doesn'talign with that story, I'm like,
that didn't happen.
Or, not that it didn't happen,but I just don't think about
that anymore.
And then if I am confronted withit, then I'm like horrified.

(34:53):
But but I think it is all aboutlike the story you've created
for yourself.

Yeah.
My mother-in-law grew up inBrooklyn, lived for 30 years on
Staten Island and now lives inWestchester.
And when she talks about herlife she'll say, I grew up in
Brooklyn and now I live inWestchester, and she

It's 30 years

Throws away the 30 years in Staten Island.

That's

like, listen, if that's the story you wanna be
telling about yourself I guess Iget it, and you can rewrite that
version of who you are and howyou want to be perceived.
And, Yeah it's interesting justto think about who we want
people to.
I guess how we wanna beperceived is the way to, is the
way to say it, because what youwere saying about societal
pressure and like weightliftingand what is that?

(35:40):
How suddenly are peopleperceiving you?
There's just a lot of

Yeah.

anyway.
Maybe I am having an existentialcrisis.
That's what your book did to me.
That's okay.
Monica was sent to study Chinesewhile her grandparents played
Mahjong and always came backwith a different snack.
What would your snack be?

Oh, this would imply that I'm in Taiwan.
So probably there's like a saltand pepper, chicken nugget kind
of thing that is just sold installs.
You basically, you they have itall out and then you like point
out what you want and thenthey'll re fry it for you and
put it in a little paper bag andgive you like skewers to eat it
with, and you just walk down thestreet eating your fried

(36:23):
chicken.
It's delightful.

Wait, re fry it so it's like a double fried

I think so, or somehow they like heat it up
again and it's all crunchy andhot again.
'Cause normally they just lay itout and then you just choose And
they have like french fries andother fried things as well, so
you can get like a bag of friedfood.

Okay.
I guess it's like in this dayit's like a pizza slice.
They have the pizza slices Themand stick them in the oven to

yeah.
Yeah.
Pretty much.

Okay.
I always talk about food oncake's reading, so it was
really, it was important to meto think about what snacks you
were coming home with.

Yeah.
What snack would you be getting?

I don't know.
I'm not a I don't wanna say I'mnot a big snacker'cause that's
not a hundred percent true, butI don't know.
I'm not, I don't like dopopcorn.
I'm not a big chips person, so Idon't really, I'm not a hundred
percent sure I

Yeah.
Something to think about.

I'm very much like a cheese and crackers or
like carrots and hummus sort of

Uhhuh.
That works.
Yeah.

that I will say the book made me want to
desperately learn how to playMahjong.

Oh, it's a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

is what's your favorite thing about Mahjong?

So I played, I learned growing up because you
need four people to playMahjong.
You like

Which I also learned about in the book.

you, cannot play without four people.
And so I have a great uncle wholives in Taiwan who plays a lot
of Mahjong and and so everySunday it's like a whole day
affair where he will come to myaunt's place and they will play
Mahjong from morning till dinnertime and and, but my aunts have

(38:01):
to do this every week and sowhenever I went back to Taiwan
they'd be like, Hey, you canplay now.
And so I would be roped intoplaying and I always had so much
fun playing and I.
Although I always got likescolded for being a slow player
because I wasn't a regularplayer and my great-uncle just
wanted to like, go and throw outhis dials.
But yeah, so for me, I thinkit's always like that family

(38:22):
feeling of being like, you'relike literally surrounded by
like people who you're playingthis day long game with.
And it doesn't have to take aday.
You do not have to spend thatlong playing it.
But yeah.
Yeah, and it's like enough luckbased that, like my Greatuncle
is not the one who's alwayswinning, even though he does win
most of the time so, so it'skind of fun to, to win

(38:43):
occasionally.

That's really fun.
When I was telling my husbandabout the four players thing, he
said, he asked me if I saw athing going around the internet
about a woman who has like aself shuffling mahjong table.
And I was like, no, I have notseen that.
And then he sent it to me andit's so fun.
It, they like, the table opensup and you push the things
inside and it like self shufflesand then repopulates.

(39:06):
Have you seen it?

I have.
I've seen the videos.
Yeah.
I've never seen a real one, butit does look like

I had never saw the video till yesterday.
I was like, that's so cool.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Great innovations in the Mahjongworld.

And isn't there something like the rules change
quarterly or something, or theylike add a

Oh, I don't know about that?
My, my great uncle has playedwith the same rules for probably
decades.

Oh, that's funny.
I know my mom plays with a groupof friends and I think there's
something about every so oftensomething changes.
I

Oh, interesting.
Yeah, I do know that likedifferent, there are different
ways of playing it and a lot ofpeople have different roles,

interesting.
Are you a big game person ingeneral, or

I don't know.
I do have on the bottom shelf ofthis bookshelf is some board
games, but I haven't played in abit.
I play some video games every sooften.

Oh, that's fair.
And in your line of work.
That makes sense too.
We, with some friends play thegame wingspan.

Oh yeah.
Yeah.
That's a good one.

It's a great game.
It is so complicated.
And so when my husband was like,Mahjong is so complicated.
I was like, wingspan is socomplicated.
If we could learn wingspan, wecould learn Mahjong.
So anyway, on a crusade, I'llkeep you posted.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Let me know if you need a fourthperson to play Masha.

Are you bad at doing nothing?

Probably, yeah.
Could you tell?

I can tell there's a que that comes up in
the book about being bad atdoing nothing, and I was like
having a sense of you.
And now having talked to you for40 minutes, like I think Allison
is one of those people who can'tdo nothing.

I think that's probably true.
I did try to read the book.
Is it called How to Do Nothing,

Oh yes, actually

Yeah, I didn't make it past the first chapter,
but

are like, I can't sit here and do this.
I have to go be productive.

Yeah.
Although, reading that should bepredictive, but I don't know.
I just didn't get that into itright away, so

that's fair.
What is, what does relaxing looklike to you?

Mostly like crawling up on the couch and
reading.
I have a dog and a cat, so Ihang out with them a lot and
they hang out with me on thecouch and, yeah.
Reading, hanging out withfriends, cooking.
I do some cooking, but yeah.

that all sounds relaxing.
Okay.
I know.
I wish there was like an, forme, I think my best doing
nothing.
This is gonna sound so terribleand I, and very sacrilegious,
but I think listening to audiobooks or podcasts is the, is
such a great way to feelproductive while not expelling

(41:34):
too much energy, if that makessense.
'Cause reading you, your eyes,your, there's To something I
could like just chill and closemy eyes and my brain can

I, that's nice.
I, yeah, I like that.
Yeah, I definitely been doinglike audio books and podcasts on
J and that definitely helps alot just to keep my mind like
awake but still engaged.
Yeah.

yeah.
No, I feel that in the book,pencils they are used as a means
of communication in manydifferent forms.
a keeping of memories,communicating, sharing stories,
those are all major themes inthe book.
Is it a fair assessment to saythis book was that for you?

(42:15):
I.

Oh, interesting.
Yeah, I think so.
I think so.
It is based, it's like veryloosely based on my family who
it at the pencil company and butthere aren't any like actual
real details about my family inthere.
But I think.
Before this book, I did not knowthat much about the various time

(42:38):
periods that I was writingabout.
It was because I had read thisbook called The Last Boat Out of
Shanghai.
It's a nonfiction book thatfollows I think four families
who leave Shanghai during thattime or who flee Shanghai during
that time.
And I think that was what reallymade me interested in that.
Time period.
And that ended up helping me doa lot of research into the

(43:02):
various parts that thesecharacters would've lived
through.
So I think in that way it waslike a way of learning more
about what my family had livedthrough.
And honestly a lot of Monica,what Monica goes through is
pretty similar to what I've gonethrough as well.
So I've mentioned the dad whowas working in China and also

(43:22):
the the grandmother withAlzheimer's.
I think a lot of that was alsolike me thinking through some of
those experiences.

I, and I think some of what I mean even by
communicating and sharingstories, some of it can just be.
Metaphor or topics or,encouraging other people to
think about their own familyhistories or their own memory or
their own relationship withtheir grandparents.
I didn't necessarily mean,Allison keeping a record of her

(43:51):
life in

I see.

But but yeah, a way of communicating to the
readers, the value of memoriesand stories

Yeah.
Yeah.
I hope

takeaway that this was a version of your
journal entry diary,

Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I like the way you put that.

and it was like a journal entry a story that
you're creating keeping a memoryall rolled into one thing.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I never thought about it thatway, but I'm glad that's what
you came away with.

Congratulations.
This is coming out on Papier, sowe're not giving anything away,

Okay.

I'm very excited for you.
How are

Oh, thank you.
Good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's.
It's, I feel like it's gonna bea pretty wild ride and I'm like
bracing myself for that.
I talked to Emily Everett, whowas the pick for April I think,
or no March all that life canafford, and she said it was
being like shot outta the cannonin five days.

(44:49):
So I'm getting ready to go intothe cannon,

I'm so excited for you.
Everyone.
Go get your copy of the PhoenixPencil Company by Allison King.
It is out now, wherever you getyour books.
And congratulations.

No, thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme and for all the fun
questions.

My pleasure.
Thank you for being here.
Wait, I'm hitting record, so Ican acknowledge your funny girl
t-shirt whilst recording.

Jeff Hiller (45:19):
You know it's her birthday.

the memo.

It's her birthday.

It today is her birthday.

I just saw that on Zoom, but I was already wearing
the shirt.

Well, and this really, it's June.
Happy Pride

Thank you.

and, and, and Barbara Streisand's birthday at
the same time.
Oh my God.
Meanwhile, I was just looking ata Reductress headline on
Instagram that said How to Smellan Auntie Ann's pretzel without
remembering Who you Once were.
And I was like, I'm a littlebummed.
It's Reductress.
'cause I would read thatarticle.

That is so good.
That is, they always have thebest headlines.
I've been doing standup showsand like now people are like,
she writes, uh, headlines for reand that's like her credit and
they call'em up and I'm like,work respect.

What's hilarious though?
It's like, it's what we actuallywant.
Like there's, it's like not evenbeing funny, it's just like
giving the people what theywant.

That's also how I read the New York Times.

Truly Right.
I take it a hundred percent.
Seriously.

Exactly.
And it's just the headline,maybe the paragraph

Right.
What's the little byline likeunder the byline?
Yeah.

That little like intro paragraph.

right?
Exactly.
Um, hi Jeff.
I'm Jason.

Hi

It's so nice to properly meet you.
thank you for being my guest gayreader today.

Well, thank you.
It's, I'm excited.

Fantastic.
You don't even know what you'rein for.
Jeff, since you are my guest gayreader, what are you reading?

Um, well, okay.
I'm reading several things.

tell me everything.
Hopefully not the commentsection.

Uh, one really has to work hard not to, um, I'll
read the headlines

I write, just the headlines, not the comments.

Um, I, I just finished rereading two books.
One of them is called Becoming aMan by Paul Monet.

Oh

Um, have you heard of it?

no.
Is he related to the painter?

No.
Different spelling.

is he related to the exchange?

Also a different exing,

Oh, okay.
Look at

although.

of spelling Monet.
I didn't even know.

Although I, it's M-O-N-E-T-T-E, uh, is this Paul
Monet, but, um, Monet ExchangeHoney, love her.
She's my favorite queen of themoment, I have to say.

Yeah, me too.

Have you been watching Untucked this season?
'cause or not untucked, uh, pitStop.
She is such a great host.

dedicate so much time to the actual program, that
additional content, it's liketoo much for me.
Which is so funny that you justsaid you've re you're now
rereading two books.
'cause like rereading, it's,that's the, that's the version
of watching Pit Stop.

Well, what else am I supposed to do?
Sit with my feelings.
I don't have children.

the rest of us, Jeff.
Oh my God.
Be disheveled and upset.
That's what we do

Well, I'm still bad.
I just, you know, read so I candisassociate.

Okay.
Wait, tell me about this book bya Monet that I've never heard of
before.

Paul Monet.
He is a poet.
Okay.
This is the fact that I justfound out about him.
That is like, um, I think you'llappreciate,

on the edge of my scene.

maybe most people won't.
He's, he was, he's dead.
He died in the nineties of aids.
Um, he was really good friendswith Judith Light.

No way.

Yeah.
Um, anyway, he wrote.
Two books.
Uh, well he wrote many books.
He was a poet primarily, but hewrote, um, a book called Borrow
on Borrowed Time, which was a, amemoir about his, um, being HIV
positive and then having aidsand he lost two lovers to it as
well.
And, that one I'm never gonnareread, although I did read it

(49:28):
once, but I read that a long,long time ago.
But, um,

to dust up.

exactly, but.
Becoming a Man is a book that I,I have, have not read since I
first started coming out.
And I'm, I'm going on a lot ofpodcasts and you're not the only
book podcast I've been on, but Ilove this one.

that's okay.

And she was like, can you tell me a book that was
fundamental in your life?
And I was like, yeah.
Becoming a Man by Paul Monet.
And,

now it's a good reminder.

so then I reread it.
To talk about it with her'causeshe read it too.
And it was sort of like a bookclub.
But, um,

I don't make you do that much work.

which by the way, bless.
Thank you so much.
Uh, but

to write a book to get on the show, but.

Yeah, you're right.

but after that I'm not requiring much more.
So

That's very sweet of you.
Um,

I'm here for you.
I'm

but also just like acknowledging the difficulty of
writing a book that I appreciatethat, uh,

Was it hard?
No.
We'll

it

talk about that in minute.

It was a little hard.
Um, it, it, I mean, actually itwas kind of easier than I
thought it would be, but it wasstill hard.
It was still

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wait, did you say you, wait, youreread two books?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, and the other one I justrecently reread, which is like,
this is self-help book,

Um,

but it's called The Velvet Rage.
Do you know it?

I, it's on my shelf.
I

But never read it.

I've not read it.
I love, especially withnonfiction, uh, reading the
book, reading the physical bookwhile listening to the audio.
And I keep deferring the libraryaudio hold

Uh,

because I just don't have time.
Um, but it's, it's

poor Libby.
She's doing so much clericalwork for you.

know that Libby bless, I wish she would do more
for me, but it's a lot of, uh,it's pushing.
She's doing a lot of pushingand, and if she could, you know,
track my emails or calendar or,you know,

that would be a lot.
Yeah,

Um,

But then the book that I, both of those books I've
actually already finished, butthe book I'm currently reading
is, um, this new book by JeffreySelf called

yes.
Self-sabotage.

Exactly.
Um.

Self, former guest, gay reader on gay's
reading.

Oh, really?
Uh, I'm so worried about him.
Did you read the book?

Not the whole thing.
I read some of it.

you are so honest about this.
All,

listen, with this guest gay reader segment, the
whole point of me starting itwas because I have too many
books and I'm like, I want totalk to people and, and without
the pressure of like going deepinto their books, but then
everyone's books are so good andinteresting and I'm like, God,
I'm, I'm like reading more thanI prom told myself I'm reading
more than I told my therapist Iwould.

Wait, your therapist tells you not to read.

Well, my therapist is like, Jason, you
have to start reading for fun.

Oh,

be reading for the podcast or only be reading
and it feeling like work.
I'm like, I know, but it all, itall becomes fun.

Well, what do you read for fun?
Like are you more of a fictionperson, a nonfiction person?
What

depends on the day, all sorts of things.

Oh,

I know.
Yeah.

see, I have very specific genres and I have to
force myself to read fiction.

I can tell.
The three books.
Well, the three books you justrattled off are all nonfiction.

Oh, yeah, you're right.
I did what, what's the

I'm paying attention.

I read All fours by Miranda July recently, and I, I
love Secret Nunez.
I read, I read a lot of SecretNunez books.
I just read the Vulnerables

Who knew You were such a big reader.

Well, yeah.
Aren't you?

The other fun thing about this is I talk to
people who people don'tnecessarily equate with reading.

Oh,

No, but like no one's like, oh, Jeff Hiller is
probably a big reader, right?
Like that because, do you knowwhat I mean?
That's not how they quoteunquote know you

right, because I just seem like a, a character
actor with a

a cartoon character.
Right, right, right.
Well, like Jonathan Adler, thedesigner, huge reader.
He was a guest gay reader, andlike he's not, you don't like
think about him and talkingabout books.
You know what I mean?

I guess that's, yeah, right.
Yeah.
'cause it's like, when does hehave time?
Is he's always potting.

He's always potting on that pot man.
Um, I am shocked that our pathshave not crossed in real life.

Well, haven't, why haven't they,

it's insane to me when I first moved to New York
City,

Mm-hmm.

well, let me back up.
Your book is called

Yeah.

you Actress of a certain age, which I all
morning.
I've been like, where's theemphasis?
Is it actress of a certain age?
Actress of a certain age,actress of a certain age, right?
I was like, what Actress of acertain exact, yes.
That one's so creative.

(54:34):
I had no, I didn't even think ofthat one.
That's what it is, isn't it?
Actress of a certain

Yeah, exactly.
I'm trying to think what word itis.
Actress of a certain age,actress of a certain age.
I think it's, I think it's onactress and then, and then the
of a certain age is, is you

Is into the microphone.
Got it, got it, got it.

Actress of a certain age.

oh, thank.
Yes.
So it's a little bit like mumbleside mouth

Exactly.
It's a side

So it's really actress and then of a certain
age is the, is the little lineunderneath the headline.

that's exactly.

Right.
I'm glad this is all makingsense.
It's all coalescing.
Um.
When I, I, I ask you about thebook title because my
understanding is part of why youwrote it is because you've like,
had this whole long career andall of a sudden people know who
you are

Yeah,

because of the fabulous, uh, somebody somewhere
on HBO or Max or whatever we'recalling it today.
this comes out in June, so whoknows what it's gonna be called
then?
Um, we love a rebrand, uh, butwhen I first moved to New York.
I, I sold merchandise at TheLion King on Broadway.

Oh wow.
When was that?
What year?

Well, hold on.

Okay.

You'll, you'll know, you'll know exactly when
it was in a second.
Uh, I was an intern at thepublic theater

Oh,

and I ran the in person lottery for Bloody,
bloody Andrew Jackson onBroadway.

wow.
Why did we not meet?

I know

So you moved in 2010.

I did.

Okay.
You ran the in-person lottery.

in-person lottery.
Yes.
I drew the names and everything.

That was like the only place where people actually
bought tickets

Right.
'cause they were$20.
Well, and so I was interning atthe public and that turned into
a full-time job and I was MandyHackett's assistant for years.

how did we not

How do we not meet?
I was working there duringLove's Labor's lost.

Yeah.

I.
Michael Friedman would sit at mydesk all the time.

This is crazy.

I know.
Bonkers to me.
Well, so then Jeff, I was atyour opening night of bright
colors, bold patterns.

Ah.
Oh, well that was a, I nowonder, I don't remember you
from that.
I, the only thing I rememberabout that night was, oh God,
let it end.
Because for people who don'tknow, it was a solo show.
I was replacing Drew Drogie andthere were.
Like 200 people in a very tinyroom, and every single person,

(57:12):
like I was the only person totalk to because, because the
writer wasn't there.
He had left already.
The director was Michael Yuri.
He wasn't there.
So the only person was me andeveryone was talking to me, and
I was very overwhelmed.

Did, I didn't even say hello that night.
That was so, that was just, youknow, overwhelming.
Um.
One of, she didn't teach me incollege, but a co, a professor
at my theater program was JaneBrody.

Oh, you're kidding.

No, of course.
You just did a show at Enco andmy dear, dear high school bestie
is Amy Engel, the AssociateGeneral Manager there,

I'm just, I was just emailing with her.

and.
My husband and I used to live on42nd and 12th, and you would
like sit in the little parkoutside of our building, like
eating a sandwich every once ina while.

Oh, that was when the UCB theater was over there.

So literally your book is, is about why people
don't know you yet or why ittook people so long and I'm
like, Jesus Christ, Jeff Hilleris everywhere.

This ubiquitous bitch.

I know

That's what I should have called it.

yes, this ubiquitous bitch or this
ubiquitous bitch,

That is, so I, I have like a persona of
humiliation that, you know,because I did hang out in that
park all the time because I, itwas pre pandemic and so the UC
me theater was on 42nd and 10thas well, and I would go to that
weird.
Whatever that deli

Uh huh.

starts with an S and get like really nasty stuff.
Like from the hot food

Uhhuh.
I know RIP Hot food bars.
Those are a thing of the past

I mean, it's probably for the best

a hundred percent.
But like at the time, I loved ahot food bar

do I did too.
It was always like

because you could get two pieces of sesame
chicken,

Exactly.
Exactly.

That's a little taste.

But I would get a little taste of so many things
that it would still be like$25.

I know.

I'd be like, I got two pounds of food,

I know, right?
You're both like horrified andoppressed.

and I would go there and I would read books.
And I would, um, kill time andit was, it was always when like
the signature theater hadsomething happening in their
lobby and I couldn't be in theirlobby or it was like, it's a
nice day, I'll sit

Yes, that was our building River

That's so embarrassing.

I know, but I never thought to like, stop and,
and, and say Once upon a time Idid the lottery at Bloody,
bloody Andrew Jackson and I sawthe show more than probably
anybody else

Jeff Hiller (01:00:02):
That is wild.
So you got to see the show too,

Jason Blitman (01:00:05):
a, a bunch.
I mean, I.

Wow.

Yes, I would like, I would like get free
tickets all the time.
So I'd like bring friends and Ijust like everyone come see the
show.
No one else is coming.

For those, for, for those unfamiliar with what we're
talking about.
That was a, the one Broadwayshow I was in and it was a sort
of a notorious, uh, doozy of abomb that.
Then it had like a huge articlein the New York Times about like
why it almost killed the publictheater.

I know, I know there was like a whole shakedown
after it was such a weird timeto be at the public.
That was like within my firstfew months there.
And I left, uh, when Fun Homewas playing at the New Men.

Oh,

was, it was, it was post bloody downtown during
the renovation of the downtownspace.
Revitalization, but also beforeI left, before Hamilton.

Right, right, right.
Oh, you left right before the,the money came rolling in,

Right.

but then the pandemic was hard and for all
theaters, but I saw Fun homebecause we had just done Bloody
buddy.
They, I got free tickets to gosee it in previews.
And I was like, I, I had, I wasfamiliar with the graphic novel,
but I don't read graphic novels.
I did of course, read that afterI saw the show and, um, and, and

(01:01:32):
I went, and when Ring of Keysstarted happening, I looked at
my husband.
I was weeping so hard, I couldnot control myself.
It was shocking.
And I just had another momentlike that in the theater.
Uh, it is, it's not a showthat's anything like Fun Home,
but I just saw this show calledOperation Mince Meet, which is

(01:01:52):
normally like a wild, funny,wacky comedy, musical comedy.
But there's this one song thatis so beautiful and I was going,
I went to see it with MichaelCyril Creighton.
Do you know him?
He's a character actor.
He's, um, only murders in thebuilding.
Anyway,

Yes, of

it, it's helpful to know that we are like these
middle aged gay character actorsand.
This song started happening andit ended and we looked at each
other and we both burst intotears.
Anyway, I am emotional and Iread books.
Surprise,

oh my.
The things I am learning aboutyou, Jeff Hiller and the things
that everyone will learn aboutyou when they read your book,
actress of a Certain Age.

but you haven't read it, you haven't gotten it
yet.

they didn't send me a copy of.

Oh, I'll send you a copy.
I have one.

they'll send me one.
It's fine.

Okay.

It's fine.
Honestly, I like have too manythings to talk to you about
anyway, so it's

Well, and also you, I don't wanna get you in trouble
with your therapist.

no, honestly, I wanna listen to the audio book.

I recorded it.

Of course you did.

It's done.
It's good.
I mean,

know.
I can't wait to listen to it.

do you want, can I, it's not even a subtle brag,
it's like a full blatant brag.

Brag.
This is the time.

they scheduled me from 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM and at
two she goes, we're already pastour.
We're already past our deadline,so just come.
Let's just cut it and come backtomorrow.
And I did it in two days andthey had scheduled me for five.
I'm a reader baby.

Did they pay you for five?

Well, they were just paying me a lump sum.

Oh, okay.
Perfect.
Even better.
Even

my daily rate.

yes.
You were like, this is myoff-Broadway training.
I am

It was improv.
It was improv.

Seriously, of course.
You were ready to go.

am, I was ready to go.
I know how to read aloud.
I could be a drag queen, story,time reader, whatever,

Yes.
Have you ever thought aboutdoing that

being a drag queen.
Well, you know, I had thisautoimmune disorder where all my
body hair fell out and I waslike, I think God wants me to be
a drag queen, including myeyebrows.

sign.
Oh my.
You don't have to shave.

I know.

Is this your way of saying This is the beginning?

Yes, I

the beginning.

Season 18 here, I.

Spoiler alert,

I, whenever I watch it, I'm always like, I could do
this challenge so easily.
And then, then like when it getsto the like makeup, I'm like,
oh, I'd be bad at that.

I room.

Which is like

I go through

only thing

Right.
I know.
I'm literally like, I don't knowthat I'd wanna shave and I don't
know.
I don't like have the patienceto sit in the makeup mirror for
three hours, like, no,

know.
And when you see how much likeunder, under makeup is un under
the,

I'm like the purple and the brown.
I'm

when they put the green on or whatever, the

I'm like the, that doesn't even show through
like the layers.
I'm like, my poor skin.

I know.
Poor

I was on years of Accutane.
That would out, it would redoall of the things.

It's so true.

Okay.
All right.
Well, I would, I would see the,the bad drag version I,

I have done a lot of bad drag during the pandemic
with Drew Jogi and Justin Sayer.
We did all of these like Zoomreadings of plays that Justin
Sayer would write and I would, Iwould do, you know, I would
always be playing a woman and Iwould do like my I home drag and
it was not good.
I just looked like my

Does she have a name

well, I do have a drag name.
Yeah.
I want it to be, uh, I wanna beVanessa.
I'm not gonna explain it anyfurther.

I am not asking?
I'm not asking.
It explains itself.
It explains itself.
I, I read the, the second linethat after the headline, I fully
get it.
Vanessa, I love, you know, Icould see like another drag name
being, uh, an amalgamation oflike all of the best eighties

(01:06:07):
baby names, right?
Like,

Oh

like Vanessa reminds me of that.

Yeah.
Vanessa Ney, like Tiffany needsto be in there.
Brittany.
Yeah.
I'm into it.

Yes.

I'm gonna work on it.
When I, I was on Kimmy Schmidtand I played, I played a, a
character who's named.
To.

Yes.

like it when you make two, two names.
Fuck.

Jeff, before we go, because I'm sure you have a
million other book podcasts toget to,

You're the only one today.

you did tell you, you made it very clear that this
is not the only book

Well, it's, first of all, it's just two.
But she made me read a book andalso she is a friend of mine
from a long time ago, who is alibrarian in Las Vegas.
So I I, she didn't even gothrough my publicist

what I'm competing with.

Yeah, exactly.
My, I'm just trying to tell

Librarians are very important to us these days.

oh, she is on the front lines too.

Oh, of course she is.
Um, well, the very importantquestion that I'm asking
everyone, uh, it is a moment toamplify people that we love.
If you were to die tomorrow.
Who?
Fingers crossed, who would youenlist to delete the search

(01:07:35):
history on your computer?

Oh, that is deep.
Um, I mean, in reality it wouldjust be my husband, but that,

No.
You're not allowed to pick your

Yeah, exactly.
Um, it would be really hard forher to get here.
But I have a friend who is my,my best, best friend and she
never judges anything.
It's like, she's like, like,like sometimes, like one time I
made us fly to Chicago toaudition for Second City and I

(01:08:09):
got the time of the auditionwrong and she didn't get mad at
me.
That's such a good friend.
Do you know what I mean?
She is the best, best, best.
Her name is Katie.
She lives in Denver, Colorado.

Shout out, Katie.

she Shout out Katie.
Katie, Brandon, we love you.
She's a a a a, me a, what do youcall it?
A midwife and nurse at DenverHealth and Hospitals.

what an eclectic range of friends you have.

Is it?

You have your

when, when you read the book, you'll see that I used
to work.
That's true actually.
I do, I do have, oh yeah.
The Vegas librarian was justsomeone who used to do improv
and moved back to Vegas.
The, the, I used to be a socialworker in Denver, Colorado.
That's why I have that friend.
See, it's weird.
You'll see it, you'll read the

I, yeah, no, I'm gonna listen to it.
I can't wait.

yeah.
You'll, you'll listen to it.
It's good.

Um.
I, I love asking people thisquestion because it's, it's been
so joyful seeing people like,reflect on how special some of
these people are in their lives.
Um,

she is very special.

though hilariously, Jeff Hiller, I
trust of a certain age oractress of a certain age or
actress of a certain age is outnow.
Happy pride.

Yes, happy Pride.
June 10th, it came out.

came out on June 10th.
Go buy it or listen to it.
Jeff recorded the audiobook intwo days.

I, I just really wanted to pat myself on the

Yes, that is a big deal.
Reading is hard, but fun

and fundamental.

and fundamental.
Yes.
And thank you for being my,being my guest gay reader.
You're such a big reader.

I kind of am.
I didn't really think take it inuntil just now.
Thank you for reminding

yes.
Um, and go watch somebodysomewhere on HBO and find you on
all the places and all thethings, and consume all your
content and go hang out, youknow, in all the parks.
And maybe you'll see Jeff theretoo.
Who knows what park will pop up

Do you wanna hear a little story really quickly
about, about.
Um, how people seeing me onetime?
Yeah.
Well, um, you know, I'm notfamous, famous, so like I can
walk down the street just fine.
It's not like a Lady Gagasituation, do you know what I
mean?
But like, I've been on a lot ofTV shows here and there, so

(01:10:33):
people kind of recognize me,kind of know who I am.
And um, one time I was on thetrain and I got on the train and
this is after somebodysomewhere, and I saw this guy
notice me and I was like.
Oh, he noticed me.
He like took me in.
He clocked me, whatever.
That's cool.
I sort of flattered by that.
He went onto his phone and thenthe train opened the door again

(01:10:57):
and it pushed me over to be backbehind him.
And I looked down at his phoneand he was Googling actor with a
weird looking face.
It's in the book, read it.

Oh God, that is incredible.
You know, but it's so funny'cause like you, maybe you're
not Lady Gaga, but you arerecognizable.

Right.
But, but I'm, I'm not famous,you know, so, so people are

Not enough to know your name.
Right.
But they know.
They know you.
And that's enough.
That's enough.

Yeah, and apparently my face is unique.

my God, it's so funny.
Um, well on that note, so niceto meet you.

Great to meet you too.
alison, Jeff, thank you both somuch for being here.
Everyone, I appreciate you asalways, and have a wonderful
rest of your day.
I'll see you next week.
Bye.

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