Jonathan Van Ness & Julie Murphy (Let Them Stare) feat. Alison Bechdel, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what andwhy.
Anyone can listen Comes we arespoiler free.
Reading from stars to book clubpicks we're the curious minds
can get their picks.
Say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay there somethingeveryone.
Hello and welcome to GA'sReading.
I'm your host Jason Blitman, andin the almost two years that
I've been hosting GA's reading,this is the very first time I'm
recording an introduction withmy husband in the room, and I'm

(00:46):
feeling very self-consciousright now, but that's okay.
We're all in this together.
Each guest on today's episode isa, doesn't need an introduction
sort of guest, and I am elatedthat they are all here with me
today.
First up, I have Jonathan VanNess and Julie Murphy talking
about their book, let ThemStare.
And my guest, gay reader todayis Queer Icon, Allison Bechtel,

(01:10):
uh, who shares what she's beenreading, but also talks about
her new.
Graphic novel spent.
All of their bios are in theshow notes.
It's fun to share that on thegaze reading Substack.
I just dropped a pride guide fora non exhaustive list of my top
picks for pride.

(01:31):
Top picks for pride.
It's a lot of plosives into themicrophone.
Sorry about that.
The guide is free online, and ifyou subscribe to the Substack,
you could download a PDF of theguide.
So the link to that is in theshow notes and also in the Link
tree on Instagram.
So you could follow us onInstagram.
We are at Gaze Reading.
We're on Blue Sky, we are onYouTube.

(01:53):
You could watch this episodeover on YouTube.
And as always, if you like whatyou're hearing.
Please share us with yourfriends.
Follow us on social media, uh,and like, and subscribe to Gay's
Reading wherever you get yourpodcast.
So you will be the first to knowwhen a new episode drops, just
like this one right now.
And so all of that said, pleaseenjoy Jonathan Ness, Julie

(02:16):
Murphy and Allison Bechdel.

Julie Murphy (02:19):
a very small gay world,

Jason Blitman (02:21):
It's a very small gay world.
Speaking of gay world, who I'm,I'm in Idlewild at an Airbnb
right now.

JVN (02:27):
what a sentence.

There has never been a gay person who has stayed
in this room because thelighting would not be this.

So bad

I am so mad about it.
Anyway, I'm gonna talk to youboth like this.

Okay, perfect.

welcome to Gay's Reading.
I'm so happy to have you

JVN (02:46):
Thanks for having us.

Yay.

to talk about your delightful, delicious
novel.
Let Them Stare by Julie Murphyand Jonathan Ness, um, your
debut together.

Yeah.

JVN (03:01):
that's what I mean.

Yes, I know.
'cause you both are esteemed,

JVN (03:05):
and authors.

Yeah.

JVN (03:07):
have we skated before independently?
Yes.
But it's like our debut as ateam,

Exactly.

JVN (03:13):
a

tense.

along the lines of like, like two, like divorce a
coming together and having likethat first child in like a new
marriage.
You know what I mean?

JVN (03:24):
You know what's more coming up for me, for some reason I
think it's'cause it's the end ofour,

To her.

JVN (03:29):
end of our book tour.

Uh.

JVN (03:31):
I think what's coming up for me is like blades of glory,
but us and we're figure skatersand writers

Yes.

JVN (03:38):
we are like novelists and Paris figure skaters, and we are
just like skating the house downand

Yes, exactly.

You said recent divorcees and my mind
immediately went to First WivesClub and the finale where you're
both in your white dancing downthe street.

JVN (04:00):
That's

Oh my God.

JVN (04:01):
about your knee from this.
Like before we started recordingyou guys, we learned that Julie
took a mbo and that's why I wasworried about the needs.
It's like, what about our figureskating?
What

figure skating, the finale.
I know.

JVN (04:12):
We got this.

You know what?
Here's the thing.
My airport pickup was at 4:30 AMthis morning brutal, and I
almost fell like six times atthe airport, so I knew it was
coming for

Mm.

and at least I fell in the privacy of my own
hotel room.

JVN (04:28):
Four 30 is find that anytime I have to do a car
before 5:00 AM is when I feel.
Like much.
Ouch.
Like even if

Uh,

JVN (04:40):
five, it's like fine.
Like I got this like after fiveit's like fine.
But it's like when it's like,when it's like those three 40
fives, like four 30, it's like,ow.

This is a safe space.
We can be tired on gay'sreading.
It's fine.

Yay.

JVN (04:55):
didn't have that really call today.
I was,

well, Julie did, she could be tired on the.

JVN (05:00):
I had a I o'clock flight, so I.

Yes.

Yeah.
Yeah.

is, is on the verge of falling normal for you,
Julie?

No,

Oh.

I was just like stumbling around, like I had a,
like an O'Hare layover today,also.
Awful.

JVN (05:21):
What a.

Yeah.
I had a connection today I waslike just stumbling around, like
reading a book on my phone justlike,

Okay.
Well,

I know, well this is also maybe the problem, but I
like could not function.
I could, I didn't know how tohave four limbs today.
I just didn't.

all right, but you have a beautiful wallpaper
behind you

JVN (05:46):
the windbreaker is

and the win.

JVN (05:49):
I dunno if we're using this video, but this windbreaker is
like gorgeous.

are folks, head on over to YouTube if you're
listening.
And you could see Julie'sfabulous.
Yes.
What does it say?
What is, what are, what are thewords on the shirt underneath?

oh, well,

Oh,

mean to brand place, but this is my, this is
my company.
Bittersweet.

JVN (06:09):
Who actually did this book?

it's true.
It's

bittersweet.com.
I assume?
No.

Something like

I was giving you a plug.
Google Julie Murphy.
Bittersweet everyone.
Um, I'm upset.
So, Jonathan, we're both Ariesand I did a, I'm, I've been on
this like.
Astrology kick recently.
I don't know why.
So Julie, I saw that you're aScorpio and I was so curious to
look at the professionalrelationship just because you
guys did this fantasticPublisher's Weekly article about

(06:39):
working together.
So I'm gonna stick that in theshow notes of this so everyone
can go read about what theworking relationship was like.
But it says, Aries and Scorpioprofessionals are generally well
suited to work together.
Due to their complimentarystrengths.
S energetic and enthusiasticleadership along with Scorpio's
strategic and analyticalapproach can create a powerful
team.
And I was

JVN (07:01):
Oh.

gagged'cause that's what you basically said
in the article.

JVN (07:04):
Oh my God.

I.

JVN (07:07):
astrological like convert, like I used to like look like.
I like because.
My ultra religious upbringing.
I used to think that astrologywas like a doorway for the
enemy.
Like to come and, you know, justlike take your soul like

Oh

JVN (07:22):
But now I'm like, I had this like amazing astrologist on
the podcast a few weeks ago andshe like.
I had one before and like, Ireally like, I mean, I like I, I
like, I like, I was like, I waslike into it,

sure.

JVN (07:36):
like Elisa, I was like, and also Chanie, Chanie, Nichols and
Elisa, both of them together.
Just like, but it's like Elisawas a cute, and Chanie was like
working me on Instagram forlike, not personally, but just
like,'cause I follow, you

Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

JVN (07:51):
I wait, I don't wanna like commandeer, but.
And you can tell me to shut up,but this is like, but do you
know about the whole, like thedifference between like your
sun, your moon, and your rising?

So I only recently did my, like, full
chart, like literally two weeksago.
I had a guest who was like, youhave to do it right now.
So I did, and she sort of likedid a little reading for me and
I don't really fully understandall of it, but we need to, like,
there's, I'm, I'm excited to doa deep dive.

JVN (08:17):
my neurodivergence really wants me to tell you.

Yeah.

JVN (08:20):
okay, I'll just tell you guys really quick because I'm
like obsessed.
I just

Tell me, tell us.

JVN (08:24):
so you're rising.
Or excuse me.
So your sun is like the thingthat everybody talks about.
So, but that's like how theworld sees you.

Mm mm

JVN (08:33):
Then your moon is like, your moon side is like how you
feel on the inside, like.
And then your rising is like howyou interpret or like relate to
the world.
So it's kind of like how youlike

Oh.

JVN (08:51):
'cause it's like different than how you feel on the inside.
It's like how you relate

Like the compatibility of you and the
world.
I.
Right.

JVN (08:58):
you relate to like the way I understood.
It's like how you relate to yoursun and your moon as well.

Oh, this is very helpful.
Thank you, Jian.

Jonathan.

Yes,

JVN (09:08):
I was like, I'm like an Aries Sun something, something.
I

right.
I, yeah, yeah, I know.
Me too.
I have it like downloadedsomewhere and I'll, I know,
Julie, you need to like, youneed your, you need what time
you were born.
It's like a whole thing.

No, I've got it.
I've done this so many times.
So many of my friends are likewoo woo bitches.
So I've done many times.

JV n it's funny you say once you had someone on
the podcast is when you sort offully converted.
For me it was the same withtarot.
I was sort of like, oh, cute.

JVN (09:44):
I am kind of scared of that.

Well, I, I know I had a very positive experience,
so maybe that's, that's why.
But then I had Michelle t on thepodcast and she read my, she
read my vibe check and it like,sort of changed my life.
So

JVN (09:58):
What

it you, part of it was like, you have a lot of
ideas, but that's okay.
Run with, run with them.
That was like one of the things,there was, there were other
things that were so succinct andtrue to that moment.

JVN (10:14):
Wait, what's your birthday again?

April 6th.

JVN (10:16):
Oh my God.
So yeah, we really are justlike, we're so Aries.
Ugh.

I know.
I'm like very Aries.

JVN (10:22):
So

I like super Scorpio, like,

Julie's looking.
JVN, why don't you give theelevator pitch for Let them
Stare?

yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Sorry, sorry, sorry.

We could talk.
I we're gonna take this on somany journeys, but I also want
people to know about the book.

Yeah.

JVN (10:36):
was, when I was doing a live the other day, I was like,
wow, Julie, this is soembarrassing.
that cute thing called on theinside of the flap of the book
again?

The jacket

The jacket copy.

JVN (10:48):
like the thing that we write on it.

or the copy.

JVN (10:51):
Oh yeah, the jacket copy.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally.
Uh, um, yeah, I was like, I waslike, oh, I'm just gonna read
the jacket copies, elevatorpitch.
'cause this is like way betterthan what happens to like my
neurodivergence, where Iaccidentally like say the whole
like first six chapters.
But basically this

Mm-hmm.

JVN (11:04):
it's Sully is this like fierce, non-binary, gender
non-con confirming, uh, kidfrom.
Hers, Pennsylvania, and they'relike kind of giving like a more
self-actualized 18-year-oldversion of me, like now.
But like, I wasn't that cool.
Um, but like I wish I would'vebeen.
And so, uh, solely wants to getoutta their hometown.
At their graduation party thenight before they're getting

(11:25):
ready to leave, they, they dealwith their last indiscretion
from their family and they kindof tell everybody to kick rocks
'cause they're leaving this dumbold town and they never have to
see any of you people ever againwe do.
But then the next day, theirinternship that they had, like
put all the eggs in that basketfor gets pulled out from under
them.
They're stuck in their hometownwith no backup plans and no
money.
Uh, then the little money thatthey do have, they go back to

(11:49):
their old job at the store totry to like get their jo their
job back.
But they find this pricelessbag, which could be worth like a
quarter of a, like, so muchmoney.
No even knows to be honest.
it's a lot.
Uh, and uh, and, but, but, uh,they can't tell if it's like
real or not.
And, uh, so it's like my brainis not working right now, but
anyway.

Ghost.
Ghost,

JVN (12:10):
Take it back

They have the purse.
Have the bag,

JVN (12:13):
today, and it's haunted by a drag queen from the fifties.
So that's the elevator

dot, dot dot.
Chaos ensues.

JVN (12:19):
It's major.
We love

Yes.

an elevator pitch.
Like I only got to like floorsix.
That's how fast your elevatorpitch was.
Yeah, it was good.

JVN (12:28):
good.
It was so fast

Like a slow

JVN (12:29):
couldn't

elevator, but

Yes.

floor seconds, floor.

Right, right, right.
It was a, it was crank

Yeah,

JVN (12:35):
Oh my God.
It's interesting that you saythat because we were just
talking about like drugs on thepodcast that we like hadn't
heard of for a long time and Iwas like, crank.
Do you remember like

where did go?

JVN (12:46):
everyone was so scared of it.
And I

Yes.

JVN (12:48):
like 10, 12.
Yeah.
Just being like, oh, what isthis stuff?
But I feel like one ever talksabout that anymore.

Yeah.
Yeah.

JVN (12:56):
Thank God.
Maybe it's been eradicated.

Maybe do, did you get the crank vaccine?

JVN (13:01):
I got the,

Yeah.
Woo.
Thankfully.
Uh, okay.
Uh, the, the note at thebeginning, I don't know if this
is in the finished copy of thebook, but it's in the, the
advanced copy, the note from thetwo of you.

in the back of the book for the finished copy,

Oh, great.
Okay.
It exists, right?
Um, you say that grow where youplanted was sort of your mantra
for the beginning, for like yourwhole journey.
Where did that come from?

JVN (13:28):
I mean.
I think we both have likerelationships to that phrasing
from like growing up in salt ofthe Earth places where we grew
up.
But in my family, that wassomething that my stepdad used
to say to me a lot, and it justwas this, this idea of like, you
go, there you are.
And you can, just because youleave a place doesn't mean it's
necessarily gonna be better.

Mm.

JVN (13:51):
I, I think that was something that was so important
for me to.
That I wanted to tell in thisstory is like, create an
interesting story where like,you do have a life that's even
better than you thought it couldbe in your hometown.

Yeah.

JVN (14:04):
thought that like remaining in my hometown would've been
like the worst thing that couldhappen and my, you know, actual
story, like I, I did like haveto move home a few times and
with each time I did it, wasnot.
fun of an experience.
And when I look back on it fromthis vantage point in my life, I
missed out on some like reallygood moments with like

(14:27):
grandparents and family membersbecause I was so like, yuck out
by me being there.
And so I just was like, how dowe make it cool to like, maybe
not wanna leave where you'refrom, or at least that's not
like the end of the world.
And I was like, I'm gotta writea, a fiction novel about it,

Yeah.
Julia, is it the same for you?

yeah.
I think that, uh, you know,like.
Places for sure, but also liketrying to get to this point
where like, I thought that mylife would start if I looked
like this, or I thought my lifewould start if I was in this
kind of relationship, or if Ihad like these kind of
belongings if I dressed acertain way.

(15:06):
uh, I don't know, just somepoint in my mid twenties I just
woke up and realized like, holyshit, this is it.
This is what I've got.
I've, you know, I'm like a.
away through my life if all goeswell, and, uh, this is, this is
what I have and I, this could bethe last day that I have any
single day.

(15:27):
so.
Um, you know, my senior year ofhigh school, I, my family lost
our home and like my life wasessentially uprooted and all of
my friends went off to collegeand did bigger things and went
to like or New York and allthese places, and I was just
stuck in Texas.
And, uh, I just kept waiting forthat moment.

Mm-hmm.

it never came because the moment never comes.
The moment is fake.
It's not real.

Yeah.
We're also all from places.
I grew up in Florida and sowe're all from places that like
you might not want to go back to

Yeah.
Yeah.

for all sorts of reasons.
I feel this very deeply.
Um, it's funny, not funny, butinteresting that you bring up.
This is who you are and youknow, why do you, you're never
going to become somethingdifferent.
Um, some BTS, this is, this is amakeup recording we were
supposed to record a few weeksago, and I.

(16:26):
Uh, what came out of, of thatnot happening at the last minute
was me having a reallyinteresting conversation about
prepping for that conversation.
I felt this crazy, weird need tolike shower and shave and put on
face cream'cause like, I'm gonnabe in front of JVNI was.
I had this thing in my mind todo that, and then I was like
brushing my teeth, being like, Ishould be wanting to do this for

(16:47):
myself.
I should be, I should think thatI'm gonna talk to JB N every
day, but, but Right, Julie, it'ssort of a version of what you're
talking about, of just like,this is, for me, I only have
the, I only have this skin Ishould be putting on sunscreen
every day for me.
So it was a really interestinglike mantra moment and I talked
to lots of people about thatafterwards and how we do so many

(17:10):
things for other people.

It's so true.
I, uh, just have to say thatJonathan and I worked on this
book for three years and we hadlike weekly, sometimes biweekly
zooms, and Jonathan has seen meas a real grease ball.

Yes, that's okay.

I do put on my, uh, my face for Jonathan and I
do make my, make sure my hair islike a shampoo commercial.
But then also Jonathan has seenthe worst of it too.

JVN (17:38):
I mean, I feel it's.
I like, I love that we're likegoing here because I was like
also thinking about this likerandom thing this morning about
this very thing which like asQueer Eye has evolved and it's
like been so long.
I was thinking about like when Ifirst got the show and how I
really wanted to like not dosuch dramatic makeovers and I've
always tried to like see beautyin people, make sure that people

(18:01):
already knew that they like werebeautiful, like, and they didn't
need a makeover to be celebratedand they like were already
stunning and I really wanted tolike.
the whole of beauty in like adifferent way, in like a way
that I hadn't seen.
And even though I did that andstill do that for nine seasons,
I still every day got many.
Were like, oh my God, I was sonervous to meet you'cause, and I

(18:22):
was like, do I seem like ajudgmental bitch on the show?
I do try to seem really likenonjudgmental.
'cause I always want so.

Honestly, I,

JVN (18:33):
I get from people like the, they feel this pressure when
they're like gonna meet me and Ijust wanna go on the record and
say, I always think people areso cute,

it's actually funny'cause iry

JVN (18:41):
unless you're a Republican.
And then you have like,

and then you're not cute.
Yeah, yeah, right.

JVN (18:45):
but even then sometimes I'm like.

Well, but,

don't lie.
Sometimes you

but, but there, their soul is.

JVN (18:54):
but that's a different story.

That's a what?

JVN (18:56):
true.
But like, I, I more mean like,just like the kind of frumpy
ones.
Like, I'm like, oh, like you'vejust been exposed to
misinformation.

Sure.

JVN (19:05):
you know, so even, because like sometimes I gotta work with
them

Yeah.

JVN (19:09):
oh,

yeah.

JVN (19:11):
poor thing.
Like you

No, I have to, I have to say it is, it is less
about feeling judged and moreabout like proving that I was
listening.

Yes.
Like I.

Yes.
I listened to you when you saidto, you know, trim the mustache
every day.
It's about like,

JVN (19:29):
that you wanted to wear sunscreen.
That part's really good.
So I

yes.
Right.
Exactly.
That's my point.
It's like, you know, I waslistening.
I took what you were saying and,and almost like a teacher, I
wanted to prove myself.

JVN (19:40):
and you're so cute.
So you're doing so

Stop it.
No, it's not about, it wasn'tabout judgment.
It was about proving that I wasa good student.

JVN (19:47):
about when people say that.
I'm like, do they think that I'mgonna like, I think they're so
cute.

No.

JVN (19:52):
like coming in with like full Kelly Y.
Conway,

Right.

JVN (19:55):
interesting.
Where's she been?
Much quieter thisadministration.

Yeah.
Yeah.

JVN (20:01):
God.
But now we have like CarolineLevitt, which is like, that's
like, oh you guys,

What?

JVN (20:09):
it's like the substance is Caroline.
Love it.
Conway on the substance.

Oh my God.

JVN (20:18):
we ever seen any of them in the same room at the same

I don't know that we have

Yeah.

You're onto something.

Yeah.

JVN (20:26):
that down.
I think that's.

Wait, this is a hilarious segue because you, I
was gonna say you're likeSherlock Holmes, but really what
you are is like Harry the Spy.
Bye.
Everyone needs to watch this onYouTube because the face that
the both of you just made.
Um, okay.
So I read that Harriet, the spyin your note that Harriet, the

(20:48):
Spy was one of the things thatYouTube bonded over.
The amount of people that I'vehad on the show who have talked
about Harriet, the spy as aformative experience, especially
as a young, queer person and howqueer coded it is, blew my
brain.
Was that true for you?

Jonathan was the one that like brought we, a lot
of the things we talked aboutwere like Harriet, the Spy Now,
and then Casper.
Those were like some of like theearly inspirations for this for
sure.

Yeah,

JVN (21:14):
I think because like that for me with Harry, the spy is
like gully.
Like Gully was like just, Imean, I always like had a soft
spot for a babysitter.
Like I always like loved a, agood babysitter and gully just
like, oh my God.
And rip our little young

I know.

JVN (21:30):
leaves and like we'll even come back

Hi.

JVN (21:33):
to move under her next family.

I know I just had Rosie O'Donnell on the show and
I was like, Goey.

JVN (21:41):
Wait, can I not to just, this is kind of like the
meetings when me and Julie wouldjust have been like, duking it
out, like

Yeah.

JVN (21:47):
just like the Neurodivergence is just on 20,
but

JVN.
Do not apologize for yourself.

JVN (21:52):
such a good story.
Julie Murphy, I think youremember the day that this
happened.
Are you ready for this story?

I'm ready.

JVN (21:58):
I wonder if you will know what it is before I tell you.
Unless I never told you this, inwhich case you will know.

Okay.

JVN (22:04):
Okay, so it's like of 2024.
I'm in Malibu.
I was there like, I was like intown.
'cause like I have to like,whatever.
I'm in LA for like work.
I go to Nobu because I never goto Nobu.
Who goes to Nobu.
But this one day I'm like withmy husband and like me and my
best, my other best friend.
Were like, let's go to Nobu.

(22:24):
So we go to Nobu.

I love.

JVN (22:28):
I, we never go to Nobu.
Like, I'm like, who do I think Iam?
Kendall Jenner.
I don't go to Nobu.

They're not sponsoring this episode.

JVN (22:33):
So I look up and Ricky Lake and Rosie O'Donnell walk in
right past me, and they go tosit down at like three tables
away.
And like, I don't really loveit.
Like I, I just it's fine if youwanna come up to me when I'm
eating whatever.
Like, I, but like, it's likekind of a, you know, it's like
when you're eating with likefriends, it's like whatever.
But I'm like, fuck, it's RosieO'Donnell.
Like, I'm gonna have to go sayhi.

(22:54):
I'm like, not gonna ask for apicture, but I'm definitely
gonna have to

Yeah.

JVN (22:57):
play the like, oh yeah, I'm like that girl from

Do you know what would've happened if you did ask
her for a picture?

JVN (23:02):
I was just too scared to

No.
Do you know what would'vehappened?
She would've said No, boo.

JVN (23:07):
Oh, thank God.
So, thank God I didn't ask.
I go

You get it.

JVN (23:12):
oh my God.
I don't get it.
I don't get it.
I didn't get it.
I, didn't,

Thank you, Julie.
Thank you.

JVN (23:20):
I was like, so, I was like, so I was like.
I was like, hi, nice to meetyou, whatever.
So they were really nice.
So then I'm walking back and Ilook up and I see all these like
secret service agents around ourtable and I'm like, that's like,
what are all these like peopletalking in their wrists for?
And then I turn to my right andwho's standing there?
Hunter Biden Honey Hunter Bidenand his like 2-year-old.

(23:45):
And nice woman whose nameescapes me.
Whose name I wish I knew off thetop of my

Mrs.
Hunter Biden,

JVN (23:53):
Yes.

right?

JVN (23:55):
so, yeah, so it's me, hunter Biden and Rosie
O'Donnell, all and Ricky Lake,all at Nobu on the same day in
July.
It was like so crazy.

Oh my God.

JVN (24:04):
I was like, I'm never gonna be the same.
Like, that was the craziestlunch of all time.
Like Hunter Biden, RosieO'Donnell, Ricky Lake, at Noble
at the same time.
Isn't that wild?

That is wild.
And Ricky Lake, honestly is theone that I would be like Love,
but, uh, Ricky Lake would've hadme

What, what was it about Ricky Lake that does it
for you?

Oh, hairspray.

Yeah, yeah.
I didn't wanna assume, but youknow, we do love,

I'm a fat girl who loves queer shit.

right?
Yeah, yeah.
And mean, I just, were they, didthey both have their microphones
at the table?
Is that how they and theirlittle cue cards?
That's so cute.
Oh, I love that.

JVN (24:49):
You really never know who you're gonna see.

And here I am.
My mouth is watering.
Being like, okay, what did youorder?
That's what I want to know.
I don't Who cares about the restof it?

JVN (24:57):
like having like a really nice tea.
Like there

Oh,

JVN (25:00):
delicious like tea.
And then after like two ofthose, I was like, who am I
kidding?
And then I did get a cocktail.
I can't

oh yeah.
Good for you.

like this crazy crispy tuna appetizer

Ooh.

and die for.

Is it like on Crispy Rice with Yes.
Mm,

I think it's a crispy tuna.
I dunno.
It's really good.
You just

okay.

to Nobu so I can make sure that we order it.
That's all.

Oh,

So that's how you find out what it.

that's right.
Uh, food.
It comes up a lot in this book.
I'm obsessed.
What?
There's a chili bar at Sully'sGraduation party.
I have never been to a chili barbefore.
I've never had a chili barbefore.
What is, what do you serve?
Tell me everything.
Please educate me.

JVN (25:44):
It's like a build your own chili bar.
Like obviously the chili islike, like the chili is like the
chili, but you have like yourbowl of like cheese, your raw
onions.
You have like an assortment ofcheeses.
You have like some gorgeouscrackers.
You could have like some dicedjalapenos.

Um.

JVN (25:58):
also think.
Like, I love like a baked, Ilove like a, yeah.
Sour cream, of course.
I also love like chili, a top ofa baked potato, like there's
probably like a bowl of likebaked potatoes that you could
like put in the bottom of thebowl, you know, to

But

JVN (26:13):
on top of,

this is why I was asking if there's like, is there
like a special secret thing?
What is your family like?
Cornbread.
I don't

just,

JVN (26:21):
shoot, cornbread.

corn Road.

Come on.
I'm not messing around.

I just moved from Texas to Kansas last year and I
didn't expect for there to be somany like cultural differences,
but the way that these people inthe Midwest live and die by a
crockpot.
Like, just, I didn't, I don'trealize how many, how many meals
I was missing out on that Justsimmer on your countertop.

get one?

Well, yeah.
We have one now because

Have you used it?

yeah, I

Okay.

haven't used it 'cause I don't cook, but the
people in my house have used itmy behalf.

JVN (26:58):
your favorite Crock Pot meal?

Okay.
So one of my friends makes likea Ruben dip,

What?

Yeah, and you can use the dip, just like put the
dip on like a sandwich too andjust make it like a little rubin
dip sandwich thing.
It's so delicious.

Wait, can you describe it?
What is the, what is in theRuben Dip?

Well, everything has cream cheese in it'cause
it's the Midwest so there's acream cheese base.
I think.
we make a lot of queso'cause allof the restaurants in the
Midwest are Mexican restaurant.

JVN (27:32):
cheese case, like white queso and Midwestern Tex
restaurants.
It's

I know

JVN (27:35):
favorite food.

Hmm.

all the, all the like restaurants in Kansas that
have Mexican food don't havequeso, they call it espan dip.
it's like this weird spinachartichoke situation, which is
good.
But I also miss just likeregular queso.
So we've

Hmm.

a lot of regular que o too.

Okay.
I had a crockpot under my deskat work for about a year, and
then I brought it home and Iowned it for like 10 years and I
think I used it three times, sothat's why I ask about using it.
I like had aspirations.

had to repurchase one when we moved to Kansas
because we were like, we'remissing out on so much.

wait.
What happened to the first one?

I mean, we, we lived in Texas.
We donated it like we

no.

ate hot food under duress.

But did, oh, so you rarely used it.
I, I wanted to make sure that Iwas not alone in my rare
crockpot using,

No, no.

JVN (28:32):
been able to assimilate one into like our regular, but we
wanted to, but it just

Yeah,

no, it doesn't happen.
I don't know why.
It seems so easy in theory.
You're just so popular.

No, I thought I turned on do not disturb and
it's disturbing.

was not listening.

No.
Oh my God.
I

so another food item that comes up in the book
that I had to know more about isa cheeseburger egg roll.

JVN (28:56):
Oh yeah,

Uh, where does that come from?

at a cheesecake.

JVN (29:01):
it's like, it's like

Oh my God,

JVN (29:03):
It's like a southwestern egg roll, a cheeseburger egg
roll.

I've had a Ruben egg roll before actually in New
York.

JVN (29:10):
I've never had that.

That was very good.
But a cheeseburger egg roll.
I have been to a CheesecakeFactory.
Have I had it before?
I don't know.

JVN (29:19):
really makes me wanna have a lava cake.
Now that we brought up chilies.
I really love their lava cake.

There was a Chili's in the O'Hare airport
this morning people were eatingit at like eight 30 in the
morning, and I was like, I couldfuck it up.

What would you order?

that.
What would, I've awarded atChili's, this is hard, but I
feel like in my heart of hearts,it would've gone for a Triple
Dipper.
You know, so boneless wings,little mini burgers and
southwest egg rolls.

This way you didn't have to commit.

Exactly.

Yeah.

if I could make every meal tapas I would, but
yeah, I love chilies.
I

Interesting.

Like I saw a TikTok the other day of someone
who had gone all the way to likeand was like near the pyramids,
like right on the Nile, and theyfound like a Chili's that you
could eat at on the Nile River.
And I was like, take me there.
go there.

JVN (30:15):
Wow.
I wonder if they have like aunique Egyptian menu.

I doubt it.
That might make.

JVN (30:20):
I feel like they do like yelling.
McDonald's like has likeslightly different like local
things, like

Yeah.

JVN (30:26):
I wonder like what the chilies, like, I feel like they
must have like a something

What if they call the lava cake?
A lava pyramid?

Oh my God.
I just, I'm gonna look it upright now.
Chili's in Egypt.
Let's see what comes up.
Um,

Yeah.

oh, wow.
They have an Instagram.
It's Chili's, Egypt Official.
FYI.

Amazing.

Oh my God.
Okay.
I'll, we'll do some exploringlater, but.
It looks very similar.

this podcast.

I talk about food on every episode.
Don't worry.
I also talk about RosieO'Donnell on every episode.
So we're like on par with everyother gays reading episode.
We're fine.
Um, speaking of food, thishappens in the book.
The, we're all roughly the sameage, and this is maybe me being,
um.

(31:23):
An asshole to a youngergeneration, and I feel like I
don't want to get stones thrownat me.
The chef's kiss that everyonedoes right now and the heart
hands I'm like allergic to, andI don't know if it's because of
when I grew up this, am Italking to the wrong people?
Are you both like, no, this,this is, you need to assimilate.

JVN (31:42):
to do this.

Yeah, do like a chef's kiss and a heart hand.
But this is like, this is themillennial heart hand.

JVN (31:50):
Yeah, so I

another heart hand.
Well, that, and then there'slike a, there's another, there
you go.
That's the, that's the youngin'sheart hand.
I'm not allergic to thosethings, but there are things
that I am allergic to,

Like what

so I get it.
Oh man.
Like,

we, if you don't wanna get, if that might cancel
you, that's okay.
This I'm, I might get cancel.
This might be it for me.

JVN (32:11):
Okay.
How pretty was this when I didthis?

It is like cute.
The mask of it all is very cute.
Jam N but like I, I can, it'slike cilantro to me.
I can, I mean, I like cilantro,but it's like cilantro to other
people.
I just get,

cilantro either.

know why this is cilantro to me.

but I hate when people say, like you were
talking about the other day,

JVN (32:33):
Yeah.

Jonathan, I

What is chuge?

JVN (32:35):
it.

what people call it when like millennials are
cringey.

Oh,

JVN (32:40):
I just thought of men generally cringey.
I didn't realize you had to bemillennial.

Yeah, yeah,

okay.

JVN (32:46):
like, I can't believe that I'm gonna be 40.
That's

I know.

JVN (32:54):
crazy.

I know.

It's so cringe

JVN (32:58):
so fast.

social media manager this weekend was having
like a little bit of like aspiral and she kept calling it a
crash out and she's super Cuban,and I was like, maybe this is
like a, like a language barrierthing.
And then I keep seeing iteverywhere on the internet that
like the youngins are calling ita crash out when you have like a
mental health dilemma orsomething like that.

Interesting.

JVN (33:22):
I just can't even believe that.
Wow.
I just can't believe I'm notlike 23 anymore.

I know, I know.
It's depressing.

Do you

I.

40 this year, Jonathan?

JVN (33:31):
No.

That's a 2026 problem,

JVN (33:38):
I know.
I'm so sorry.
No, that like, but that'samazing and I love that.
Um, yeah.
No, but I, I'll turn 40 the yearafter next.

Okay.

JVN (33:45):
just for clarity's sake,

Yeah.

JVN (33:47):
anyone cared, but you'll be fine.

and, and I'm the youngest on the call.
I just have to say it out loud.

JVN (33:52):
No,

Yeah,

JVN (33:53):
good.
That's really good.
That's really

yeah, yeah.

JVN (33:55):
That's really good.

Just by a little bit.
It's fine.
Um, what were your car's namesgrowing up?

JVN (34:05):
Betsy.

Betsy.

Actually,

JVN (34:08):
Yes.

I asked because Olivia Newton John is the car is
the star car of the book.

JVN (34:14):
Yes, yes, but that was just because we like her.

Sure.

Mine was to be the Toyota.

What the Toyota.

I drove a 1983 Toyota Camry.
That was my first car.
This was in like 2004.
This car was old and, uh, no,not 2004.
Probably like 2002.
And um, it was a navy blueToyota, like Toyota Camry,
Toyota Corolla, whatever it is.
And um, it had like the seatbelts, like the automatic seat
belts that like buckle you in.

(34:45):
And someone had painted a racingstripe along the side that was
yellow with house paint.
She was, she was great.
Uh, she lasted me, um, a goodlong while until I realized that
you have to get the oil changedin your car

Oh,

JVN (35:02):
Hmm.

RIP.
Um, I had a grand marqueeLincoln Mercury, and her name
was Ethel Merman.

JVN (35:10):
Oh,

was like a little old lady.
She was green and at some pointher AC stopped working and I
grew up in Florida and so I waslike, she's gotta go.

Yeah.
Swamp pass.

Yeah, and my dad sold it to one of my cousins who
like a second cousin, and the,the windows also stopped rolling
down, so the cousin like droveit around in the Florida heat
without the window.
It was

JVN (35:33):
nightmare.

Anyway, Olivia Newton John made me think about
Ethel Merman, and I was veryexcited.

Yeah.

I know.
All right, Peter, her too.
Um, speaking of Olivia NewtonJohn, there is fabulous queer
history throughout the wholebook.
I feel like you need like a,like a coloring book follow up
that has all of the key peoplefrom the book.

Love it.

I told you my tarot card told me I'm full of
ideas.

Yeah, I love it.

Um.
What was, what was that, uh,what was the importance of that
for you?
Of sort of educating thechildren?

pitched.
Okay.
So Jonathan had this originalidea for the book

Yeah.

was like, and then I want it to be full of queer
history.
And I was like, baby, that'syou.
Um, because I am familiar withMusical six, and that's about as
far as my history goes.

What.

Um, I just never dialed in on history, and I know
that Jonathan like.
You like.
That's what I mean.
Okay.
So now your podcast is calledGetting Better, but it was
called Getting Curious and likeso much of your podcast, like
starting out was just thingsthat you were excited and
curious about and a lot of thatwas history.
So Jonathan had like, likeinterviewed so many queer

(36:49):
historians.

JVN (36:50):
I mean, I've literally interviewed like I think dozens
of them over the years, but Ithink overall it was like I
didn't know that there was somuch splendid queer history
until I was like in my earlythirties,

Mm.

JVN (37:02):
like I really didn't know.
And I was shocked to find outthat there was so much like just
right in our backyard.
Like it just was like coded andlike called different things.
And think that was one of thebiggest challenges is for me
with.
Well for us with Rufuss is, butit was really me.
'cause Julie was having to likefigure out how to like harness,
uh, the Neurodivergence.

(37:23):
But Rufuss really could havebeen from so many places in so
many different times and theywere like, rufuss changed forms
so many times as we were writingthis book.
'cause Rufus could have beentrans mask from like the early,
like, from like the UnitedKingdom.
Rufuss could have been transfemme

Ru Rufuss, the, the ghost who comes out of the
bag.
Just for context.
Yeah, yeah.

JVN (37:45):
the the purse, um, the haunted handbag.

Yeah.

JVN (37:48):
that was really fun, was like kind of just figuring out
like, when did we want Rufuss tocome from and

Hmm

JVN (37:54):
to be and who do we want rufuss to represent?
But Rufuss, a story is based offof like a few different stories
that really different thatreally happened from, um, drag
performers.
Drag performers from like thenortheast in the nine, in the 19
hundreds.

Hmm.
Was there anything in partthat's the third accent we've
gotten today so far.
I.

JVN (38:14):
Ugh.
That must mean that I really amout of it.

Is that not normal?
What

JVN (38:20):
Well, no, I do love a little accent, but I think our

is has one right?

JVN (38:26):
actually, you guys, I will tell you this, when we got
married it, we got married inlike June of 2020, and then it
was like August of 2021 where Iwas like.
Wait a minute.
Have I been speaking in aBritish accent with you
exclusively at the house for thelast year and a half?
And Mark was like, yes.
And like, when is it gonna beover?
And I was like, oh my God.
I can't believe I've beentalking like this nonstop and

(38:49):
every, yeah.
And like I, I really had to likeforce and relearn my like, like
stop talking in a Britishaccent.
And every time we play Fortnitewith our British friends, I slip
into it.
Like I just, and it's not goodand

Yeah.

JVN (39:04):
And the worst thing a British person can do, like a
new British person can do islike, tell me that it's good
because

Then you keep doing it.

JVN (39:11):
Yes.

I'm so like self-conscious of my British
accent.

JVN (39:17):
Oh, can we hear?
I don't think you've ever heardit.

No, that's why you're never gonna hear

Mm.

because I dunno, like my husband's family is all
in like Scotland and some, orlike in

Oh,

JVN (39:27):
They're not gonna listen to this podcast.
Just fucking whip it out.
Just try it.

you know what I, I do.
Listen, I pretend I am Dick VanDyke in Mary Poppins, and so I
just that'cause that's howterrible my British accent is.
So I'm like, hello?
Mary Poppins?

JVN (39:42):
sounds

hello Mary Poppins.

JVN (39:46):
that's.

Yes.

nice.

JVN (39:50):
You should say, say like, say, um.
Can I have a portion of beans,please?

Could I have portions of, could I have a
portion of beans, please?

JVN (40:00):
That's nice.

Yeah.

JVN (40:02):
I've never seen you blush before.

right now.

JVN (40:06):
feel like Julie's literally blush.
I've never seen you fall blush.
You're

Listen, fun things happen on gays reading.

Yeah.

We do British accents.
Oh my God.
Mark is so cute too.
Yes, yes.
Um, okay.
Julie, you, you said six wasthe, your, your most queer
history ness that you knew.
Um, we love six Great good carsinging.
Is there something in particularthat you remember learning

(40:35):
through the process that wasinteresting to you?
I.

Oh yeah.
I mean, so originally when wetalked about, um, this book, we
had talked about the cons oflike working in, uh, the concept
of female husbands.
And I had no idea what femalehusbands were, and I think that
most people don't.
So I think that Jonathan shouldtell everyone what female
husbands are.
Um, but before we do that, Ishould just.
Like clarify that like I went tolike a really super crazy

(41:01):
Christian religious schoolgrowing up, so like my history
was like the Bible and thenwhenever I could piece together,
once I started going to school,like I remember I took a geology
class in college and I was like,what are you telling me?
We've had dinosaurs for so long.
What's going on?

JVN (41:18):
10,000 years old.

Yeah.

JVN (41:20):
crazy.

Listen, we're never, it's never too late.

Exactly.
Exactly.
Okay.
Jonathan, female husbands.

JVN (41:30):
Um.
Female husbands were like theselike, well, but Julie, what was
it?
What?
What is something that I waslike spewed off to you about
queer history that you thought,but you thought that the whole
female husband story wasinteresting.

I did think the whole female husband story was
interesting, but what's crazyabout female husbands is it's
just like such like a nichething that like really did exist
in a really specific window oftime.
So.

JVN (41:52):
like, basically was like from, it was like the long 19th
century.
Like you would find like thesearticles about like female
husbands.
And it happened in the UnitedKingdom in the US and it would
be like a straight couple wherethe man was found out to really
be a woman.
Um, and so it was like theselike men.
Or these like women who werelike transgender.

(42:13):
They like the historians who Italked to about that were like,
we don't really assign them liketrans.
'cause like they didn't callthemselves that then so, but
they will say that they werelike transgender.
Um.
that was from an episode that wedid on getting Curious with Jen
Manion, who's an incrediblehistorian and writer who I think
is an like, amazing.
Um, but then I, but then therewas like episodes that I did on

(42:35):
like World War II era queers,like gay navy men from like the
18 hundreds.
Like there was like a, thenthere was like, uh.
There's just been like literallyqueers from all like from
different centuries, differentdecades, like in American and
European culture that I've hadon the PO or from that I've
learned about on the pod where Iwas like, ah, Rufus could be

(42:56):
from so many places, but femalehusbands really intrigued me.
But then really hard for me.
I.
To write from like theperspective of a trans mask
person and like understand it aswell.
And it was like hard for me toconnect with his character like
that.

Hmm.

JVN (43:10):
And so then I was like, let me do a queen from the fifties.
'cause McCarthyism and thelavender scare is like rich and

Yeah.

JVN (43:18):
and there was like so much there.
Um, so that's kind of why wedecided to go rufuss and make,
um, them be from the 1950s andbe a female impersonator.

Yeah.

thing I really loved that you talk about
sometimes is when you had ahistorian on you told the
historian that you thought youwere like the only gay person
that had come out of likeQuincy, Illinois,

Hmm.

that historian brought like, like some sort of
like magazine or something likethat to their interview with you
and there was like a littlewanted ad sort of in this
magazine that was like, yeah,

JVN (43:53):
from the

yeah.

JVN (43:55):
and

Well,

JVN (43:55):
my hometown,

Yeah,

JVN (43:57):
like a date basically.

that's, it's so interesting because a, I went to
school in Chicago and, um, anadministrator, the one of the.
Deans, uh, was never in arelationship and then retired,
comes out of the closet, meetsthis guy and they move to
Quincy, Illinois and they'relike retired little old gays in

(44:23):
Quincy, Illinois, which is sointeresting.
Yeah.
So not only is their history,but there's also future.
Yeah.
Love.
Okay.
In our last little bit together.
Let them stare the title of thebook.
it's the opposite of beingafraid to be seen for who you
are.

(44:43):
And I can imagine the three ofus on this call at some point in
our lives, were afraid to beseen for who we were and, let
them stare.
Is this like declaration?
And I'm just curious to hearwhat it means for each of you.

Yeah.
Oh, I can jump in Jonathan,

JVN (45:03):
No,

if you, um, so for me, let them stare.
Uh.
It is sort of like people aregonna look anyways, so why not
let them stare?
Because the more that we letpeople look, and the more that
we normalize like differenttypes of people, the more
normal, just in general, itbecomes to people.
Um, so really that's what letthem stare means to me.

(45:25):
Like the more we let peoplestare, the more like, the more
they'll find that there'snothing really to stare at.

Right.
I was gonna say, you, you said,I, I think the idea of it's not
about more normal, it's aboutthat we're all just individual.
Yeah.

I think, like I always think back about how like
when I go places and do liketalks about body positivity and
fat positivity, I'm constantlytelling people to diversify
their social media feeds.
'cause

Mm.

just the, the more types of people you see, the
less unusual it feels to you tosee different types of people.

Yeah, that's a great piece of advice.
BRB Gonna go follow a gajillion,different looking people.

Yeah.

Yeah.
I love that.
Jonathan, what about you?

JVN (46:13):
I think, I mean, I think it's Julie said and how she
spoke to litter I think is sogood.
I think one thing that reallyrings out for me in in Sully's
story who's like, I meancharacter of the book is their
relationship with their mom,Eleanor, and I think that part
of what.
Is so special and was so specialto write in.
This story is like theirrelationship.
And I think so much of howsolely was able to kind of know

(46:35):
who they were is because theyhave such a supportive mom or
like such a

Mm-hmm.

JVN (46:38):
parent.
You know, it doesn't matter ifit's like a mom, just a parent.
and so I think that's reallywhat I would like.
I.
That just like stands up for mewith like, or stands out to me
about let them stare is likepart of while why Silly could
withstand the intense scrutinyof their hometown is because
they had a good support systemand just how important that is.
And many queers don't have thatat home.

(47:00):
And I think I.
The more that we can besupportive of each other.
'cause we never know like whatother queers are going through.
Like let's be each other'sfamily in a time when just have
like less allies.
And so I think it's even moreimportant for queers to like
stick together and show up foreach other.
'cause it is like icky out thereright now.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think sort of to piggybackon that, a huge, uh, the heart
of the book is this concept of,of do something about it, right?
So it's let them stare, but alsoif, if, if you want to change
something in the world.
Don't just sit around and waitfor it.

JVN (47:36):
Yes.
You better crack that case.

Yes.
Crack that case.
Write in your speckled notebookand figure it out.
Oh my God.
Did.

JVN (47:44):
I mean, and also it's like, it really, I feel like we didn't
talk about the book that much.
Whoops.
But this is so fun.
But it really is like, if youwant like a fun little
mysterious, like queer history,like fun, easy read, like this
is like a fun, like mygirlfriend Dylan is obsessed
with it a lot.
Like my, a little inner circlethat Reddit before it came out
was like obsess.
So it is ya.

(48:05):
But like, I think if you're amillennial queer, you'll enjoy
this book too.

Mm-hmm.

there.
Also for me as a youngmillennial queer, the book was
How I Paid For College by Markato.
Um, it has a lot of musicaltheater references.
It came out like in the twothousands.
That was my.
Let them stare.
Um, and yes, it is sodelightful.
Every episode has a guest, gayreader as a second segment, and
Dylan was a guest gay reader ongay's reading and shouted out,

(48:31):
let them stare.
So that's, this has been in thegay's reading world for a long
time.
We love Dylan Lavay.
Um, and today's guest, gayreader is Alison Bechtel.
So.

Shut up.
Oh my God.
Sorry.
Like the

The Allison Bechtel?
Yes.

Well,

Coming up after this, after this session.
I've already talked.
I've already talked to her.
Otherwise I would ask if you hadanything you wanted to ask.

I mean, I might have to like, I,

JVN (49:03):
obsessed.

oh my God.

Yeah.
No, she's amazing.
Um, do you know her musical funhome?

yeah.

Okay.
You don't only know six.

Okay.

Okay.
Okay.
This has been so fun everyone.

JVN (49:19):
other day.
We love you and we're so gladthat had us

That's okay.
I had so much fun talking to youtoo, and honestly, like truly
the false alarm was a reallygreat conversation starter and
so needed, so truly everyone goget Let Them Stare by Jonathan
VanNess and Julie Murphy.
It is so delightful.
You're going to love it.
And now stay tuned for AlisonBechtel.

Harper! (49:44):
Guest Gay Reader time!

I don't

Alison Bechdel (49:47):
But Jason, this is like a new incarnation for
you.
Last I, I've met you, you, youused to work for Mandy Hackett,
right?

You did your research.
Look at you.

I was like, that's a familiar name.
And I looked in my email andthere was all these emails with
you about showing up for certainthings at the public theater.

That is so funny.
So I gave you, and I assumeHolly, a tour of the building
after the very first workshop ofFun Home.

Yeah, that was a very intense day.
I'm amazed I remember anythingfrom that man.

That's so funny.
I know.
I like very distinctly rememberthat.
And I was like, n to now see youin this context is very odd to
me because at the time I wasn'treally a reader.
I'm excited that our paths arecrossing again.

Yeah, me too.
I just listened to a coupleepisodes to see what you're
doing.
It's a great show.

Thank you.
I'm glad you liked it.
well.
Allison Bechtel, you are here asmy guest gay reader.
I am.
It is an honor.
It is a pleasure.
It is hilarious to me because ofthe the way that fun home has
come in and out of my life insuch important ways, how you
have weirdly come in and out ofmy life at different times as
well.
Allison, I have to know.

(51:04):
What are you reading?

Well, I've been thinking about this and the sad
truth is I, my reading life hasbeen very curtailed lately.

Yeah,

I started teaching fall.
And who knew how hard that was?

what are you teaching?

smokes.
I'm teaching comics, Teaching,two classes of how to draw
comics,

it would've been really awkward if you
accidentally were teachingstandup comics.

yes,

You were like, wait a minute.
Wrong person.

very much the wrong person, but it was a
crazy.
Experience.
I started teaching for the firsttime ever, like in my sixties
last fall at the same time thatI was finishing this, my new
book, Which I suppose

Which we'll talk about in a second.

and it was the most.
Intense pressure I have everexperienced in my life.
Like learning this New thingabout how to teach, how to every
day have to invent a new classand all these, like I have to
have a website for each classand I have to keep track of the
students and their assignmentsand keep thinking of more
assignments.
It was insane and every spareminute that I wasn't teaching, I

(52:21):
was working on this book, I wasrushing back to my little
Garrett.
That's where I am now.
Like a monk on my little slantboard, and week into September I
had to stop reading anything atall except necessary stuff.
I was in the middle of thisgreat biography of William James

(52:41):
that came out

Oh

years ago.

yeah.

think of the author's name.
It's a great biography, but Ihad gotten to this point.
I was about three quarters ofthe way through, and Henry,
James William's brother.
Had a nervous breakdown in thebook.
His New York edition of all hisworks had just been published,
like Beautifully bound volumes,and they weren't selling, and

(53:07):
Henry just felt like a failfailure and he had a breakdown,
and I myself, felt so close to abreakdown in that moment that I
had to set the book aside and Ihave not read anything purely
for fun since then, seven monthsago.

How do we rectify that?
That's okay.

There read a lot I don't wanna say it's
compulsory reading, but I readfor my classes, I read for my
work, and I also do a lot ofreading for.
Writing blurbs, this issomething

Uhhuh.

hear writers talk about, but a lot of the
stuff I read is stuff thathasn't even come out yet.
So I have read a couple reallygreat books that I Want me to
talk about those?

Sure.
I also, you can talk aboutthose.
It's good for people to addthings to their TBR list or I
also am fascinated by thingsthat people are reading that are
not books, right?
If you also wanted to.
What are you what are youscrolling through that brings
you joy or, because we're allreading on a daily basis,
whether it's our emails or, butno, tell me what is something

(54:14):
that you've read that we shouldlook forward to?

The cartoonist, Mimi Pond has written an amazing
biography of the Mitford Sistersthat will be

Oh,

in the fall.

Uhhuh.

Do you know about the Mitford sisters?
Oh my God, I didn't either, butwhoa, there are these six
sisters born

see.

around the time of World War I.
By the time World War II rolledaround, they were all adults and
they were nuts.
They were just crazy.
They were socialites.
And one of them became a fascistand one of them became a, not a
socialite, but a socialist, acommunist in fact, and went off
to fight with the Republicans inSpain.

(54:59):
And

Oh, how fascinating.

were amazing and.
Between the six of them, theylike interacted with every major
figure of the 20th century fromHitler.
One of them hung out with Hitler

Oh my God.

JFK, to Martin Luther King.
It was incredible.
Anyhow Mimi Pond has abeautiful, drawn, a beautiful
graphic biography of this crazyfamily.

Fascinating.
Amazing.

In a way, I think maybe that as a comic
book, like as a visual narrativeis the only way to wrangle so
many characters and Time spans.
But that

Do you, you talked about the imminent mental
breakdown being the thing thatmade you put a book down seven
months ago.
Has reading for blurbing.
Brought any sort of joy ordistracted you in a positive
way, or does that also feel likework?
Because I know lots of authorswho read for Blurbing and

(55:57):
they're like, oh my God, I justhave so many blurb books to get
through.

Yeah, I certainly did take pleasure in
this book, but it's differentwhen you have to do it.
You're not reading it at yourown pace.
That

Yeah.
Yeah.

it somehow.
So I'm trying to figure out howto make time for free range
reading of stuff.
I just.
I do on my own.
And I, that's just been a bigstruggle for a

When you are reading for fun, regardless of
when that's happening, what doyou like to read?

for pure fun.
I guess I like detectivestories.

Oh, this was not where I thought this was going.
Tell me more.

What did you think I was gonna say?

You brought up the biography and that feels
very well.
No, sure.
That doesn't surprise me, butlike for you to, like you very
specifically said detectivestories is what you go to for
pure fun, which is funny thatyou say pure fun versus like
fun.
What was, what's the differencewith me saying fun and pure fun?

I, it, life is so difficult these days.
It's a

I know.

time and

Yes.

Hard to find ways to completely like
decompress, just

Yeah.

brain, crossword puzzles only take you so far.

Drugs.

yeah, I'm trying to stay away from the drugs.
I'm reading this sort of guiltypleasure right now for my
bedtime reading'cause I can'tread anything at bedtime that is
at all substantive or God knowsI would never sleep.
and this is a book, it's a wholeseries that I only, it's been
happening for 30 years.
It's by Lori King.
She writes about this woman whobecomes the apprentice of

(57:40):
Sherlock Holmes.

Okay.

And solves all these cases with him and they're
just, it's just fun and crazyand I love Sherlock Holmes homes
as a kid, so it's a fun,

I love Sherlock Holmes stories too.
That's so fun.
I love a good detective story.
Okay, so you are readingsomething, you're bedtime
reading.

Yeah, that's my bedtime reading.

Are you like a read three pages and pass out
immediately kind of person?
I.

Here's the thing.
I.
I have been, but our troubledtimes, it's taking me a lot
longer to zone out.
But I discovered this new thingat the school where I'm
teaching.
They give us this app calledCalm,

Oh,

it's much cheaper than having to provide
therapy for all the employees.
Have you ever explored this?
It's one of those like mental

like the, I think I've done the seven day free
trial.

Okay.

Yes.

pretty pricey, but I get it for free.
And they tell you these bedtimestories, these sleep stories as
they call them, and I havediscovered that they really
knock me out.

Perfect.

I'm not trying to read, I don't have my eyes
open looking at a,

Yeah.

read on a Kindle at night.
I used to read on books, butthose are quite cumbersome in
bed, so onto the Kindle and nowI don't even need the Kindle.
I just have my phone next to myhead

Yes.
Oh, you don't even putheadphones in.
You just have it playing next toyou.

alone, if I'm with my partner, I have to put
on

Yeah.

up in them.

Yeah.

I have a separate apartment at this place
where I'm teaching, so I canjust take the whole bed up.
Anyhow, do we really need to gointo all that?
Sorry,

I'm obsessed.
This is the joy of the podcastis we can go fall down whatever
rabbit holes we want to.
I love imagining you likestarfish on a bed by yourself in
your apartment, with your phonenext to your head, listening to
a calm sleep story, zonking out.

yeah.
Someone figured something outwith these stories and I, and
the beauty is I can listen tothe same one over and over and
over.
one of my favorite sleep storiesis about a train journey from
Trondheim, Norway.
Up the coast and back and I justkeep listening to it.

Because you don't know what happens at the end
'cause you keep falling asleep.

can make it through to the

So it's a mystery every time.

but it's a funny kind of, it's, is it reading?
I don't know if it counts asreading, but.
It's a, you can't write anythinginteresting or compelling in Or
it will keep people awake.

Jason Blitman (01:00:09):
Yeah.
That's interesting.

Alison Bechdel (01:00:10):
to be dull.
And I it's a very curious form.

That is a such a specific niche market and like I
feel like I could do that.

Oh, you could you have a soothing voice.

Oh, thank you.

yeah.

I just mean like I could tell racket write
stories that are boring.
It.
The stakes are low.
As the story writer.

You could write them and read them, and then
you'd get double

Yes.
Ah, genius.
You'll now you have to get 10%.

That's 15,

Oh, she drives a hard bargain.
Allison, I'm like holding thisin my hand is very special.
I'm obsessed.
And also I have this, the littlecompanion piece that, that shows
you what the color is gonna be.
'cause the color is spectacularin the book.
So you, your new book spent acomic novel.

(01:01:04):
I want to hear your elevatorpitch and then I will complain
to you.
What's your,

Okay.
a sort of auto fictionalproject.
It's about

I.

named Alison Bechtel.
runs a pygmy goat sanctuary inVermont.
So in some ways it's true.
And about my real life, I am acartoonist named Alison Beto,
who lives in Vermont, but I donot run a pygmy goat sanctuary.
I don't own one pygmy goat.
So it's this very fun experimentin about myself, but in a
disguised way that's just purelyfun and silly.

Yeah.

I don't know, like Curb Your Enthusiasm is a
riff on.
Larry David, but moreexaggerated,

Yeah.
And so it's this sort of likeepisodic journey through this
time of this cartoonist.

Yeah.
It's about,

Yeah.

it's about the recent present.
Uh,

Mm-hmm.

Place over the past couple years.
And the really fun part of thebook for me is that it
incorporates.
The characters from my old comicstrip that I used to do in my
youth.
I, for many years wrote thiscomic strip called Thanks to
watch out for this community offriends.
And in this book, those peoplereappeared and they're all in

(01:02:25):
their sixties now, like me, andthey're my friends who live down
the hill in Burlington, Vermont.
It's this funny of my comicstrip career and my memoir
career, so It's part true andpart up in a really fun way,

And that is so funny to read as a reader who is
very familiar with fun home.
Because

right?

I'm wait, I know this isn't true, but I know this
is true, but I know this isn'ttrue.
But does Allison have a sisterin real life?
I don't think she does.
But what's hap the dialoguethat's being said in the book
would totally happen if she didhave a sister, her.

I know.
I feel like I've, I havesuffered this late in life
realization that, oh my God,I've just told the world like my
most intimate.
Secrets.
It's all out there.
It's in these books.
It's in this musical.

Right.

on some level I'm trying to cover my tracks a
bit.
I think trying to call intoquestion what exactly is true
and what isn't.

That's a hundred percent what the experience of
reading it was like I was secondguessing everything I already
knew about you.
In fact, I like literallyflipped to the cover multiple
times to like, make sure it saidnovel.

That's funny.

But it is fun and it is stressful because it, as
you said, takes place roughlynow-ish in the last couple of
years, and the world is fallingapart and burning.

Yeah, and I finished it.
I finished the it's hard to saywhen I finished the writing
versus the drawing, but Icompleted Book like in November,
like just before the election.

Oh, cool.
Cool, cool.
Cool.
Cool.
Cool.

Had to leave open the possibility for what
actually did happen which ismaking me excited for the
sequel.

Is there gonna be a sequel?

I hope so.
'cause it, I, it's the onlything that's gonna keep me sane
in, in this current landscape.

I fully agree and appreciate that.
What is your process like?
You said finish drawing versusfinish writing.
What's, how do you work?
I.

It's funny'cause I work in different ways
depending on what I'm doing.
When I was writing.
Memoirs fun home.
And then I wrote a couple morememoirs

Mm-hmm.

It's this very, it's a very much a process of
discovery and you don't knowwhat's gonna happen.
I can't like schedule it, it'sjust doing the work and hoping
it comes together.
But this book spent is much morelike my comic strip I was just
building a narrative like afiction writer would.

(01:05:06):
Just telling a story and makingsure it fit together, which was
in some ways much easier.
And kind of schedule it like,okay, I'm gonna write this
chapter this month, I'm justgonna do it.
But that's the writing and adI'm writing, I'm also
envisioning the.
Images I write in a drawingprogram, so I'm like playing
around with the page and whatgoes where on the And then comes

(01:05:27):
the fun part at the end where Iactually do the drawing and
bring it all to life.

So the drawing always happens after you've
written words.

Yeah.
I wouldn't know what to draw ifI hadn't plotted it out,

yeah.
I think with with some writersin theater, they'll pull
together a group of actors andgive them a scenario and just
have them act things out and youfigure it out in three
dimensions and then you put pento paper.
So I didn't know, if you were toever doodle something and see
what your pen did that theninspired something.

people do that.
I was

Yeah.

on a panel with Peter Cooper who just wrote an
amazing graphic memoir aboutinsects and

Cool.

He was talking about how he sometimes didn't
know what was even gonna happenon the next page.
He would Drawing it.
so some people do that.
I can't work like that.

Was it fun?

It was fun, which is really a change of pace
for me.
Normally, my work is quiteexcruciating.

Say more.
Why?

I don't know because I don't know what's
where it's going.
I think that that's a excitingprocess, trying to learn
something about myself or learnsomething about the other
writers and thinkers I'mbringing into my memoir work.
It's it's all unknown and that'sstressful.

(01:06:47):
I.
never found a way to just beeasy with that.
And this, to a certain extentthat was true of this book too.
You never know what's gonnahappen if you're gonna be able
to figure out how to landanything.
But it was and funny.
It was basically just like acomic strip, like a, an

Yeah.

comic strip.
And I really enjoyed it.

I'm so glad to hear that.
Did it, do you, are you inspiredto raise goats?

They're very cute.
They're very appealing.
But my partner Holly, actuallycan't abide goats.
She part of the inspiration forthe goats was my grandfather was
a goat herd and Holly, mypartner, was a goat herd in her
youth.
So it was just this funny kinda,

What

a slight autobiographical.
Connection,

I.

Holly learned from that experience that she
really cannot abide goats.

I can't believe this is happening.
Live on a recording.
Hi.
On a hill was a lonely goatherd.
In my mind it was a herd ofgoats.
But you are saying a goat herdis the person who is herding the
goats.

Yeah, but actually I saw the sound of
music with my grandfather I wasfour and he was 70 and he sobbed
at that scene high on a hill wasa lonely goat herd.

Because he was the lonely goat herd.

he grew up in the owls herding goats.
And he hadn't been back since.
He was a, he'd never gone back.

Oh my God.
In my mind, like a herd of Nn.
Hill was a lonely goat herd is agroup of goats, but I never
thought about it as being aperson.
Your grandfather is the lonelygoat herd.

Yes.
Yes.
Did you have any idea this wasgonna come around to the sound
of music?

I didn't, and funnily enough, my episode that
released today, also, the soundof music comes up.

I was recently watching the Sound of Music one
night, not so long ago,desperately trying to find
something that was gonna calm medown, and it is terrifying.
You

Terrifying.
No, the Nazis come at the end.
Allison.

come

No.

it.
Yeah,

Or you know what?
Maybe it's important to watch itso that we know what to do

yeah.
Maybe it is.

right?
We're gonna just sing our wayoutta town.
Oh God.
A new question that I've beenasking everybody because this to
me is important and is a time toamplify people that we love, who
are important to us.
If you were to die tomorrow, whois deleting?

(01:09:36):
Your search history on yourcomputer,

Wait.

it can, it can't be.
Holly, who are you entrusting Todelete your search history?
In this moment?
Who is so special to us that wetrust with our lives and our
secrets?

How about Fran Liebowitz?
I would

Do you,

Her.

you know f or are you just gonna ask her?

I don't know her, but I.
I just saw her per perform and Iwas so impressed.
She is like sharp as a whip.

I am obsessed with her.

and I would totally trust she could have the
whole keys to everything I.

I hear you.
You're not wrong.
My issue with her, it is a veryreal high stakes logistical
problem.
She doesn't own a computer and Idon't know that she would know
how to do it

my God.
You're right.
She would have no idea how to dothat.

right.

She'd probably it off to the Doge people.

But the instinct is good.
I appreciate it.
We could amplify Fran Lebowitz.
She's doing important work inother ways though.
I

helper.

Yes, a hundred percent.
That's a great, right.
Fran Lebowitz is intern, is whowe're asking.

Yes.

It's probably like Steven or something, or
like Lin Linda.
Yeah, I could see her intro namebeing Linda.
Anyway Allison, I'm so excitedfor you.
I'm so excited for everyone tocheck out.
Spent the new Allison Bechtelcomic novel, not memoir.

comic get it comic in both senses.

Yes.
Don't be confused.
She does not have a sister inreal life.
I did have moments I like, IGoogled it twice.

That's great.

I was like, I am a hundred percent sure, but I
need to be 110% sure.
Because there is this moment inthe book where you're like, this
is why I didn't put you in mymemoir.
And I was like, oh my God.
Does she actually have a sisterthat no one knows about?
You sent me on a journey,Allison.

I'm so glad Jason.

Congratulations.
I'm so happy that you're here.
Thank you for being my guest gayreader today.

I think it was a delight, and I'm gonna keep
listening.
Jonathan, Julie Allison, thankyou all so much for being here
today.
Thanks for listening, everyone.
Have a wonderful weekend.
Go check out the Pride Guide onthe Gays Reading Substack, and I
will see you next week.
Bye.

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