Nicci Cloke (Her Many Faces) feat. Tess Sharpe, Guest Gay Reader

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Gaze reading where the greatsdrop by trendy authors.
Tell us all the who, what, andwhy.
Anyone can listen.
Comes we are spoiler free.
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The curious minds can get theirpicks.
So you say you're not gay.

(00:24):
Well that's okay.
There's something for everyone.
Gays rating.
Hello and welcome to Gay'sReading.
I'm your host, Jason Blitman,and on today's episode I have
Nikki Cloke talking to me abouther new book, her Many Faces,
and my guest, gay reader isauthor Tess Sharpe, who shares

(00:46):
what she's been reading and alsotalks about her new book, No
Body No Crime, which I am sostoked to announce is the August
Gays Reading Book Club Pickthrough Allstora.
Both authors bios are in theshow notes, and if you have not
heard about the Altoa Book Club,you can learn more about it in

(01:07):
the show notes and in the linktree on the Instagram, but.
Uh, this current month's book isDisappoint Me by Nicola Dine,
and again, next month is nobody,no Crime by Test Sharp when you
sign up, you also get amembership to Stora, which means
you can get books at wholesaleprices about 30% off.
You can join the group chatsonline that are all a part of

(01:29):
the club, and we talk about thebooks.
And Stora donates a kid's bookto an LGBTQIA plus youth.
All really fantastic things andnot to mention, of course, you
get a book delivered to yourdoor once a month and even that
is at a great discount.
So super awesome and I hope yougo ahead and check that out.

(01:49):
Link in the show notes and inthe Instagram bio.
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It is certainly greatlyappreciated.
So thank you in advance for allof that.
I am grateful that you are hereand now.

(02:11):
Please enjoy my conversationswith Nikki and Tess.

Jason Blitman (02:16):
I am so happy to have you.
I'm so happy to see you.
Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Nicci Cloke (02:22):
Thank you.
Thanks for inviting me.

Are you kidding?
Of course.
Um, Here, of course, to talkabout your book, her Many Faces
this is your US debut,

Yes.

but your eighth book,

My eighth book overall.
Yeah.
But I don't, but the count firsttwo, I don't really count.
They were like flukes.
I think,

what does that mean?

I feel like I was published in the UK when I was
about 23, the first book.
So it feels very separate to me.
Like I'm, I feel proud of it inthe way you'd feel proud of
something like a younger cousindid.
It feels very like not somethingthat I did.
And they're so different, thosefirst ones that I feel in some

(03:05):
ways I wish that I hadn't beenpublished there and I think I
was still learning a lot andworking out what I wanted to
write.
And yeah, I might have beennicer to debut with something
later on.
Obviously I'm grateful for theexperience, but yeah, it's,

So it's almost, do you feel like it's a good
thing that the, obviously you'vepublished a lot of books but
that this is what's rolling outyour US world universe.
I'm so fascinated by this wholething you'd be proud of a
younger cousin doing, is itbecause of how young you were?

(03:40):
You you were saying you wishyou'd been more experienced.

Yeah, I think so.
And I think, I was trying toexplain this the other day to my
friend because I've, we've justreverted the rights to the first
book because it's been out ofprint for a while.
And so I've t so I own themagain.
The publisher who got them,doesn't own them.
But I was trying to explain to afriend and I said, imagine if
all your Facebook statuses fromlike 2003 were public now.
Like you would just, it'sembarra not embarrassing, but

(04:04):
just, yeah, sometimes you moveon, don't you, from things that
you thought

That's interesting.
That's an interesting comparisonthough.
The thing about a Facebookstatus is that it was personal,

yeah.
Yeah.

Versus a novel.
I think someone could say, oh,they were a little under baked.
As a creative person I'm sureit's still great though now that
you have the

You'll never know.
Yeah, you'll never know.
So

Now that you have the rights again, you wouldn't
wanna retool it with theexperience you have now.
No.
You're like no.
This is dead.
Bury it.
Let it be gone forever andforever.
Okay.

Yeah,

So then this would be your seventh book if
we're not counting the first

The second one wasn't great either, but Yeah.

Oh my God, you're so funny.
How are things different though,do you think, between, maybe not
those first books because youtalked about being so young, but
perhaps ones that you were moreproud of versus now that you're
coming out in the States.

Yeah.
So books three, four, and fivewere young adult books.
Which was so fun to write.
I had a great time in thatperiod of my career, like doing
a lot of events with teenagersand they were ya thrillers I
think the first one was like metrying to write like a Ya Gong
girl.
Like it was that kind of likedomestic thriller, but for
teens.
Yeah.
So that was, they were reallyfun books.
And then a couple before thiswere written under a pseudonym,

(05:31):
so I had a pseudonym for a whilewhere I wrote also kind of crime
novels, but the first one hadlike a sort of supernatural
edge.
So like you weren't sure if itwas supernatural or not, so it
was based on man and the murdersthat happened around the Slender
Man legend, but like a, inventedurban legend in the uk and

cool.
How, where did the crime novelgenre start for you?

I think that's what I've always liked to read.

Oh.

remember when I was, I don't know, probably
about 11, reading a book calledThe Tulip Touch by Anne Fine,
which is way ahead of its time.
I think it was published in thenineties, but it's a really
great kind of domestic suspenseabout this girl who moved to a
hotel with her parents.
'cause they're like hotelmanagers.

(06:24):
And she meets this other girlwho is this strange, sinister,
very misunderstood young girlwho plays these really dark
games, like with animals or withcustomers in the hotel.
And you find out it's actually,it's a really powerful piece of
writing about kind of natureversus nurture and the effects

(06:45):
of childhood trauma.
But it's also a really greatthriller and like a page turner.
And I think I've always, eversince that wanted that in a
book.
Like something that will make menot wanna put it down, stay up
late reading.
And that is what the feelingthat I want to have when I'm
writing as well.
I want to, I want to bedesperate to find out what's
gonna happen to these charactersthat I'm fully in control of.

(07:07):
So crime is the perfect thingindulge that,

I'll make them, I'll make them commit crimes.

Yeah.
Or be on trial what's gonnahappen in this trial, is the
perfect engine for me to

yeah.

and tension and suspense.

I don't think I realized how much I liked a
trial story.
And then, which is funny becauseI think back to my youth and
loved To Kill a Mockingbird,which I think is cliche,
certainly as an American, butit's at at its core is this like
trial story.

Yeah.
Like a really amazing legalthriller as well as everything
else.
Yeah.

Do you dip into other genres personally in terms
of what you read?

Yes.
Yeah.
I love anything contemporary.
I was saying to you before Ilove Claire Lombardo.
Like I just read that on aflight and so that kind of
modern family saga, like I havea soft spot for that kind of
thing.

You were the first person to tell me about
the names.

oh yeah.
Have you read it?

No, it's sitting on my shelf.

Read it.
It's so great.
Yeah, anything actually that thenames as well as being like
really great contemporary, Ilove anything with an
interesting structure.
So they're kinda sliding doorsof the names, like how you
follow three different timelinesreally does it for me.
Yeah.
Anything like that is.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Speaking of interestingstructure, her many faces has a
very interesting structure.

Thank you.

Not only that, but it also is such a page
turner that I found myselfgetting towards the end of the
book, and I was like, I have nottaken nearly as many notes as I
normally do because I just.
Haven't stopped reading,

that's so great.

which is like a blessing and a curse.
'cause I was like, uhoh, that'snot good, but not good for me.
Great for you.
Because that means that it wasso compelling that I couldn't
put it down.
For the listeners, what is yourelevator pitch for her many
faces?

Okay.
How many faces is the story ofKatie who is a waitress on trial
for poisoning?
For very powerful, influentialcustomers at the private members
club in London where she works.
But it's told from theperspectives of the five men who
think they know her best.
So her dad, her childhood bestfriend her lover, or her ex

(09:25):
actually her lawyer and ajournalist who's investigating
the case.
And they all have a verydifferent idea about who she is
and whether or not she couldhave committed the crime.

We segued by you talking about interesting
structures.
How did you land on thatstructure for this book?

I think I, for ages, have wanted to write a
book around names, not like thenames, but I like started
thinking a while ago aboutnicknames that I've had in my
life.
So like my dad calls me tricky,which is, it's ironic because
I'm the people pleaser of thefamily.
Like even as a child, like thebiggest people pleaser,

Where did that come from?

I think he just finds it quite funny and it
rhymes with Nikki and

Nikki?
Yeah.
Yeah.

Just came from that so tricky.
Like all my, I've got loads ofgood guy mates and they would
all call me Cloy in this kind oflike British lad kind of
culture.
I had an ex-boyfriend who usedto call me flower because I wore
floral dresses,

hmm.

But he was the biggest misogynist, like
terrible person.
And that looking back, I can seethat he wanted me to be a
flower,

Yeah.

So I started thinking about that and thinking
about nicknames that you have inyour life and what they say
about the people who give younicknames and whether anyone can
really know us wholly, whetheryou know that you're playing
roles all the time in life, inwork, this is the first time

(10:54):
actually that, i'm using my ownname again.
So I had two books under mypseudonym, and so that feels
like a different self in a way,like professionally.
So I knew I wanted to do athriller based on that kind of,
yeah different senses of selfand the people in our lives.
And then it just very quicklybecame a crime novel, yeah,

Do crime novel.
It just very quickly became acrime novel in that was not what
you originally set out to do, orthe idea was like, oh, this is a
concept is so interesting.
What would I do with that?
And

I think, yeah, I was open to it at first, like
open to, with all of my books,there tends to be like two or
three things coming togetherthat suddenly that's oh, that's
the novel.
So there'll be like one thingthat's like a structure or.
Reading a news story orsomething and it will have to
sit in the background for awhile until I find the other

(11:49):
ingredient that's gonna make anactual story.
And I think with how many facesit was slightly to do with
conspiracy theories I guess.
'cause there is that,

Slightly, what do you

There's that element of the novel, but I
think, so this thing happened tome just after lockdown, like
during lockdown.
I got a treadmill like manypeople in the UK did when we
were all stuck in our houses.

everywhere

Yeah.
And I used it a lot because Iloved to run.
So by the end of lockdown it wasnot working anymore.
So my dad recommended this likeengineer person who would come
and fix it.
And this guy turned up reallyfriendly.
Nice.
We went out to my garage where Iwas keeping the treadmill and

(12:33):
just chatting about, I dunno,like life and.
Exercise machines and like

as you do.

as you do, especially when you haven't seen
strangers for a

I know.
Seriously.
You're like, how do I do thisagain?

And halfway through him fixing it and with all his
like, I dunno, like a spanner orwrench in his hand, he just
segued what we were talkingabout the expense of fixing it
versus buying a differenttreadmill.
And he just segued immediatelyinto, oh there's these three
companies that control theworld.

(13:09):
And I was a bit like wrongfooted.
And he said, oh,'cause they fakenine 11 and that's how it
started.
And they're like, they're fakingthe war in Ukraine right now.
And I was So just, is thisactually happening?

Yeah.

And then it just oh, it got even worse.
And he was talking about COVIDbeing fake, and then he asked me
if I was vaccinated, which I am,or was, and that, yeah, he
didn't like that.
And I was just suddenly veryaware of being in this quite
small space with somebody whowas very angry.

At what?
How far into the repair was he?

not far enough.

Oh, no.

So I just thinking like, how am I gonna get out of
this?
And it was fine.
Like he actually couldn't fixit.
So he left and I paid him.
And then as he left, he wastelling me just all these tips
for like, how to live off thegrid.
Like how, if I ever havechildren, I shouldn't I
shouldn't register their birthbecause then the state can't

(14:09):
take them away from me.
And if I ever get arrested, Ishouldn't give my name.
I can't.
There was some logic behindthat.
It was just this very.
Intense parallel world that I'dsuddenly been like shoved into
and off he went.
And like he turned out the wholetime he'd been there, he had
this friend sitting in the caroutside because he refused to
drive because he didn't want tohave any driving license or

(14:32):
anything that gave the statepower over him or access to him.
So he, he off, he went in thischauffeur that he had hired to
drive him around is so bizarre.
But this, it was interesting tome after I'd calmed down a bit
from the, like scared feelingbecause I'd noticed it was

(14:53):
happening more and morefrequently.
There was like a friend of myfamily who had told me like
fairly close to that time thatJoe Biden was someone wearing a
mask and this was a normal,rational person.
That, and the

So you

Yeah.
Had at one time been a rationalperson and then like friends on
Facebook, not friends, butschool mates on Facebook, just
posting more and more of thiskind of alternative news
conspiracy theories and things.
And I just, it was interestingto me how deeply someone can be

(15:27):
sucked under by that and howangry this man, it's actually,
it wasn't even anger when Ithink about it.
It was fear.
He was very afraid.
This man although he was quiteaggressive to me, he was trying
to warn me about this thing thathe thought.
And I thought if he had murderedsomebody, how would that pan

(15:49):
out?
Like how would that work in atrial?
And are we equipped to deal withthat kind of radicalization?
And I guess in the novel it's,I.
It's a sub ploy, isn't it?
It doesn't it's one of the manythings that could have been the
reason that Katie has committedor not committed this crime,

It's so funny in a book like this, I don't wanna
say there isn't a subplotbecause obviously there are, but
there because of how the storyis told, it's almost like a
story told of subplots.
It's a story of subplots.
Yeah,

Yeah.
It's five different versions ofher story.
'cause they're also Sure.
And like this, the conspiracyangle is mostly the journalist
because he's so adamant thathe's figured out why she
would've done this.
Who

And the ex-boyfriend or the friend.
Yeah.

The friend.
Yeah.
Who's also but the others, likeher ex has a completely
different reason why he thinksshe would've done it.
And he's got no idea.
He's never heard her speak ofconspiracy theories.
He doesn't believe that'sanything to do with her
personality.

right.

So yeah, it was one aspect of many that kind of came
together and,

What was that?
Like a research experience, likefor you, I imagine you fell down
some rabbit holes,

Some huge rabbit holes constantly.

right?
Once a creature larger than arabbit, you fell down that hole.

like a badger hole.
Yeah.
Do you know the, actually thehardest thing was the court
stuff, the trial stuff.
It's, I think I, as many peoplewatch lots of legal shows,
documentaries or thrillers.
So I thought I knew a lot aboutthe UK legal system, but
actually it's reallycomplicated.
Really complicated.

(17:30):
So I ended up there's a reallygreat barrister, so a lawyer a
barrister, specifically a lawyerwho stands up in court and does
that part of the trial who also.
Advisors, like TV companies andauthors,

Oh, funny.

on how to get their plots right.
So she was so helpful, but sheread quite a late draft and the
way I had the trial ending, shewas that wouldn't happen.
You'll need to do this or thisto work for the judge to come to
that conclusion.

Uhhuh.

So super helpful, but very stressful.

Oh, interesting.
No, but back, going back for asecond, what are some of these
conspiracy theory rabbit holesthat you fell down?
Because I, Ima you had to havedone research on those.

Load.
So I watched a lot about Q anon,which is so frightening.
I love watching horror and thiswas way scarier than any horror
film.

Was there anything that you were like,
I've never heard this theorybefore, or was there anything
where you were like, oh, I seewhere these people are coming
from?
That's what would scare me.

Yeah.
The problem is they're all soconvinced that anything, you be
like, oh yeah, I can see that.
No.

I guess when someone tells you something with
such conviction, you can't helpbut think, huh?
Maybe there is a tiny glimmer oftruth,

yeah.
There's always that,

because

there's that tiny voice in your head that's what
if we are the idiots?

I know.

these falls?
Watching the news and trustingthe news.
Yeah, I came across some reallyinteresting ones.
I read this really great book,which I now can't remember the
name of, so that's really bad.
But it's a book about conspiracytheories that came out in the UK
a couple of years ago, and it'sthe history of them.
And so they gonna go throughsome really interesting ones,
including one where there was avery prevalent one that said

(19:18):
John that Paul McCartney haddied in the 1960s and that the
Beatles had replaced him withsomebody else.
And I think there are stillpeople today who think that is
true.

Uhhuh.

Fascinating.
But,

you familiar with the American comedian, Andy
Kaufman?

no.

He was on the TV show Taxi and he was very
popular in, I guess theeighties.
And he, his style of comedy wasso specific and macab and he I

(19:57):
took a class on comedy incollege the philosophy of
comedy, which was fascinating,

that does sound fascinating.

and there would be things like, he would get a
whole group of people, bringthem on a, put them on a bus.
Drive two blocks and then takethem off the bus to go into the
other side of the building.
And like there it was thingslike that, that were just such
extreme versions of life thatwere hilarious because you're

(20:27):
like, is this really happening?
Or he was the kind of comedianthat would like literally stand
up on a stage and not say asingle word for an hour.
And just interesting to hearpeople laugh and not laugh and
then laugh and boo, right?
Like it's that human experience.
And at some point very early onin, the current president's I

(20:48):
think initial run for officewhere someone was like, this has
to just be an Andy Kaufman backfrom the grave in a suit because
this is, it's the kind of comedythat Andy Kaufman would.
Try to pull over and every oncein a while I'm like, this is
just Andy Kaufman.
I'm waiting for him to come outand say, just kidding everyone.

(21:11):
And take a bow.
Look at what I pulled off andwhat I pulled over on everybody
because that is his style.
Anyway, that's sort of,

rational explanation as

That,

everything.

right?
I'm like, that's the only waythat it makes sense to me.
This like conspiracy that AndyKaufman is still alive and that
is him.
Anyway, that's, I felt, justfell down my own rabbit hole.
But that is that's what it makesme think of.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That was such a good one.

Going backwards to format.
I'm curious to hear thedifferent versions of you that
would be in the book if you werethe protagonist.

Oh, yeah.
I guess the, yeah, so the peoplepleaser thing I said earlier
about when I was a kid, that,that yeah.
Has shaped a lot of my life, Ithink, and that is something
that Katie in the bookdefinitely doesn't have.
None of her, the versions of herare particularly people pleasing
or considerate in that way.
I dunno, I don't know if youfeel this, but I just feel like

(22:19):
I've got to the stage now whereI'm much calmer and much more
certain of myself and I thinkthere, there was a version of me
when I was a teenager.
I wanted to be a lawyer so that,that could have been and that,
that version of me was veryserious, very yeah, very
academic.

That and the crime novel thing makes total
sense.

Yeah.
Yeah it does.
Then kind of a party girl in mytwenties, I guess.
which I imagine like Katie, wedon't really get to see her.
She's 23 when the novel ends,but I imagine she probably goes
on to a, become a bit of a

Have some fun.

Bit wild.
She probably deserves it aftereverything that happens in the
book.

Yeah.

Yeah.
I don't know.
How about you?

I wonder if it's an impossible question to answer
and that's why the book isstructured the way that it's,

Yeah.
'cause you need someone else totell

Like I, I bet if I thought, okay, what would my
mom think?
What would my husband think?
What would my best friend think?
What would a coworker think?
And I, if I were to think aboutme through their eyes, I could
maybe answer that,

Yeah.
Yeah, that's really trueactually.
Yeah.

But I like, don't, my initial instinct is
that I see myself moreholistically.

Yes.
Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

And I think the fun thing about writing the book is
I first started out by thinkingwhat they all thought of her
because that was the origin ofthe idea.
And in a lot of ways it'ssomething they project onto her
more than what, they're verybiased in the way that we all
are unconsciously biased in thatthey ex, her dad expects her to
be this innocent, like charming,lovely.

(24:09):
Well raised person becausethat's what he wants her to be.
And it's very important to him.
They've had a very difficulttime as a family, and he's
invested all of this feelinginto her and into making sure
she's okay.
So he projects a lot or I guesshe chooses to see certain sides
of her and ignores other sides.

(24:30):
So as I was writing, havingalready set that in my head what
they would all think of abouther, I actually started to learn
more about them.
And that was the really fun partof writing it, is that they're
just, they're showing youthemselves really, and they're
presenting these versions ofher, but what they're really
presenting is who they are andhow they feel about what
happened and the need they allhave to atone for or justify

(24:56):
things that they did in therunup to the murders and the
trial and how they've behavedsince.
And so that was a like.
A process of discovery for me,and that's one of the best
things when you're writing anovel and you are still
discovering all of thisinformation and yeah, it just
evolved.

And similarly for me, it made me think about how,
like what pieces of ourselves weshare with different people and
how no one sort of has that fullview of who we are.
And in turn it's like easy tomake assumptions about a person

(25:37):
because you're only, you onlyhave that one perspective.

yeah.

And that is terrifying

yeah.

Because through the lens of each of these men,
they're for all intents andpurposes, right.

yeah.
Yeah.
None of them.
None.
None of them event the thingsthey've seen or heard, but they
interpret them like to fit whatthey've already, or, yeah.

Because they don't see the rest of it, so
they can only interpret itwithin the information that they
have.

Yeah,

And that was an interesting, I think, thought
exercise for me of just what amI putting into the world and how
can I make sure to informdifferent sides of myself?

yeah.
Yeah.

Who would your let's five men be?

Oh, who to talk about me?
I think my brother maybe becausewe weren't always close growing
up.
We used to argue a lot'causewe're quite close in age.
There's two years between us.
But we are very close now.
We're like, I would say he'sprobably one of my best friends
and we lived together for awhile.
Like in our early thirties weshared a flat.
So I think he's seen me at lotsof different periods in my life.

(26:51):
And I guess that kind of dualrelationship of like older
sister, but then like closefriend, we've had a differing
relationship as we've become toadults.
So yeah.
Him, hopefully I wouldn't need alawyer.
So in this story,

No, but if there was a story of Nikki Cloaks
life, who would the five peoplehave perspectives on you be?
And so it doesn't have to be amurder trial.

No.
Yeah.
So yeah, I think probably, Idunno if you can have your
brother and your dad, because Idunno if that's too, but then
it's quite

No.
There are different

on Yeah.
On like family life and growingup.
So probably my dad as well,because we are close, we're
really close.
But I think he would be likeJohn, like I think he would only
see the good in everything I do.
So I think he'd, it'd be quite abiased.

That's fair.

yeah.
Who else?
Who else?
It's interesting'causeprofessionally I've only worked
with women in publishing.
It's so heavily female.
And I think want an insight intothat side.
'Cause you're such, such adifferent person at work to who
you are in your personal life

Sure.

that I would, I wish that I could say like an
editor or an agent, but they'veall been women,

That's very cool though.

yeah.
Yeah.
That has been cool actually.
I've had, I've worked with somereally amazing people.
Yeah if I could turn one of theminto a man for the purpose of

That's fair.
Yeah, that's fair.
That answer.

yeah, I would definitely, my current partner
Chris, I think because like Iwas saying earlier, I just feel
like I've reached like adifferent stage in my life now.
I feel really comfortableprofessionally and like
personally.
And I think he's been a big partof that, but also is the only
person that has that fullinsight into that.
So him.

(28:39):
I need a fifth one, don't I?
I would like to say I had areally great English teacher
when I was at school, in seniorschool, so from 11 to 16.
And he was the nicest man whoreally nurtured me wanting to
write stories and.
A friend and I like wrote thislike lame horror script when we

(29:02):
were at 14.
And he took us and loads ofother people to go and film it
because he really wanted toencourage that kind of talent.
And not that it was talent, buthe wanted to encourage that
enthusiasm.

right?

The enthusiasm, which is the important part.
Like he wanted to give us that.
And yeah, that was a really likeformative part of my life.
I think those teenage years,like that's why I'm so
interested in this book and someof my previous ones in starting
with a character in their kindof mid to late teens because I
just think it's whatever happensto you.
It's such a strange and yeah,formative time.

(29:36):
So I would, I think maybe him,

that's a great answer.
I didn't even think about,people from my youth, but of
course I have teachers and otherprofessors and people

Yeah.
And actually that teacher, I,he, after I was published, he
invited me back to speak to hiscurrent students.

I

So I did know him as an adult as well, so I think
yeah, he would be a

That's very sweet.
Yeah, that's a really, it's ahard thing to, to answer and to
think about.
One of the first things wetalked about in our whole
conversation was about yournicknames and how that sort of
led into, this as an idea, andnicknames have come up so much

(30:16):
recently.
In so many conversations thatI've had, particularly there's
one, this episode comes out, orthe episode that I'm gonna refer
to comes out this comingThursday with the, with crime
writer essay Cosby.

Oh, wow.
Cool.

And I've never really been a crime person.
So between that and this, I've,it's like really filling my cup.
It's been, I'm like, oh, maybe Iam a

Yeah.

reader.
But of course he goes by hisinitials.
And then we also talked abouthow, in his youth, your
nicknames would come from sortof behaviors or things that
someone would do and then itwould like stick.
And so he talked about how hisfriends would call him books
because he always had books inhis bag.

That's so cute.

isn't that cute?
But so I was just thinking alot, I've been thinking so much
about where nicknames come fromand how that informs you, but
also someone's perception ofyou.

Yeah.
And would he have gone on to dothe amazing things he had if he
hadn't then been given theidentity?
Like it's so interesting.

And with, in my interview that is out today, I
have a whole conversation aboutFranklin because Franklin is
never anything other thanFranklin.

Really.

Yeah.
I'll call him Fray, but that'snot, that's because he won't let
me call him anything else.
Can't call him Frank.
He doesn't like Frankie.
He doesn't like Frankie, hedoesn't like he is Franklin.
That is, the full name.
So it, the way that names shapeand inform not only identity,
but perspective that someone hasof you.

(31:56):
Like a good friend of mine who Iwent to college with, to me,
she's Jill and to everyone elseprofessionally.
Now she's Jillian.

Okay.
Yeah,

And so that, there's just a, there's a
friendliness, there's ayouthfulness to Jill.

Yeah.
My parents would actually nevercall me Nikki, so my real name
is Nicola.

oh,

yeah.
Yeah.

I don't know why.
I assume Nicole have veryAmerican of me.

yeah I like Nicole.
Maybe that

Nicola is great though,

Nicola's very eighties in the uk.
That's probably I dunno, a threeor four in my class at school is
a very of the moment name that'snow out of fashion.
But they would, if they werecalling me, something
affectionate other than tricky,they would call me Nick.
They would ne Nicki just doesn'tcome naturally to them at all.
So it's interesting that I tookthat on and now use it
professionally as well.
But yeah,

that is very, why do you think that is?

I liked it when I was young, like when I was, I
think I was about 11 when Idecided to that I wanted that to
be my nickname.
And I guess it's quite hardwhen, a child or something else
to suddenly start calling themthis, yeah.
That, yeah, it just stuck.
So I I that it's, yeah.
A name that I've chosen formyself,

yeah.
I love that.
I a lot of people call me Jaybut if I were to choose a
shortened version of my name, Iprefer Jace.

Okay.

And there are only very few people that call
me Jace.
Lots of people call me Jay.
Few people call me jb.
So it is interesting and I knowwho calls me all of those things
interesting in and of itself.

yeah.
And I guess because you have arelationship with each of those
people, name takes on meaning ina way.
'Cause it's, it like symbolizesto you that friendship or that,
that relationship they becomethe same thing.
It's, yeah.

Yeah.
Very yeah, anytime I hear Jason,it's like almost jarring.

Yeah.

Not a lot of people call me my full name.
Okay.
Earlier on I said that I didn'ttake a lot of notes as I was
reading, which is a bad thingfor me, but a good thing for you
because that meant that Icouldn't put the book down.
So what I, but what I did do asI like looked back is I
underlined so many questionsthat get asked in the context of
the book, so I'm gonna throwsome of them at you.

Okay.

If you were a type of cereal, what would you
be?

Oh God, probably granola, which sounds really
boring, but granola's notboring.
It's not boring.

know what?
It's better than the answer inthe book.

Yeah.
I feel sorry for him for theanswer he gives, it's hard.
He's wanna impress her.

So funny.
Okay.
Tell me why.

like it's good, it's wholesome, but there's all
kinds of surprises in there.
Like you can make whatever youwant into, not whatever you
want, but yeah.

There's all sorts of say more.
What do you mean?
There's also sorts of surprisesin there.

You can mix up the fruit or the nuts that go in
there.

Okay.

I'm sticking

Different flavor profiles.
Like a vanilla or a berry or,okay.
Okay.
Okay.

yeah.
Which, what would you be,

Oh man.
It's interesting because whatwould I be versus what is my
choice of cereal, I think aretwo different things.

Okay.

I'm a very boring cereal eater.

Okay.
Okay.

I'm like, give me the fiber.

Yeah.

cardboard in cereal is my, that's my go-to.
What would I be, oh,interesting.
I don't know.
Something like a little sweetand a little surprising, but
also hearty.

Yeah.
Okay.

I don't like a cereal that, like what the
things we ate as children.
Cinnamon toast Crunch.
What were my parents thinking?
That is,

yeah.

I,

that turn the milk to chocolate milk

No, no, No.
I wanna be something likesubstantive.

What you're describing is granola.
I'm just gonna put that

Or oatmeal with granola

Oh, yeah.
Oat oatmeal is really warmingand,

Yes.
And not dissimilar from oatmeal,or not dissimilar from granola.
You can make it your own.
Okay.
I'll be oatmeal and you could begranola.
We're a good team.
Okay.
Would you rather be able tocontrol time or fly?

The reason this is in there, this is a secret is
that Chris and I have had thisargument before.
So he thinks that the bestsuperpower to have would be time
stop where like you can stoptime and everyone stops and you
can do whatever you need to doand then start the world again.
Whereas I always said I wantedto teleport and he thinks
teleport in this day and age ofZoom and thinks it's redundant.

(36:49):
You don't need to teleport.
He was like, why would you needto teleport?
Give me an example.
And I was like, I don't know ifI need to get to New York for a
meeting or something.
And he's you use Zoom.
You don't need to teleport forthat.
Time stop is useful.
But I stick by, I mean it's notflying, I guess

I do.

fun.

Flying would be fun, right?
Flying is wait, you still didn'tactually answer the question?

Yeah.
Yeah.

Are you worried about committing?
'cause then Crystal will giveyou a hard time.

No, because I teleportation, I would
definitely say.

Yeah.
No, but the question that youask in the book is Control time
or fly.

and I don't, the problem with flying is, although
it's probably quite convenientfor getting places, people will
see you It will get you a lot ofattention.
That might not be fun.
So maybe in that, this instance,I would say control time.

Or is flying.
Like an alternative toteleporting.
Like you could fly from home toNew York for a meeting.

Yeah.
If I'm like supersonic speed,then

That's, there was no, you didn't say slowly,

Yeah.
Just flying like a bird.
Like

right?

yeah,

That would take you a while.
Okay.
Fly like Superman.

yeah, I'm gonna go there.
I think that is more useful.

Interesting.
Okay.

do you think?

I would be curious to hear Chris's version
of, or like what timecontrolling means to him

So he would say that say he needs to get to a
meeting, not in New Yorknecessarily, but he would say
that he'd stop time, steal a carand drive.
But you still have to do thedrive

Or stop time.
Do procrastinate.
Then go so he doesn't, if he'srunning late, whatever.
Okay,

He's think how many books you, you could just press
stop and then read a whole book.
Write a whole book, and thenstart the world again.
But it's very lonely if you'redoing that.

that's true.
But I do see the value in thatbecause like I have an interview
later this week and I'm not donewith the book.
I could use another day or two,or at least a couple hours.
People do say there aren'tenough hours in the day, or I
wish I had a little bit moretime.

(39:14):
So I see the argument.

Okay.
It is fine.
You can be team time.
I

Wait, if you could control time, does that
mean you could go backwards oris it just a matter of stopping

I think,

you didn't know you were gonna talk about for 10
minutes today?

really specific boundaries on this, but yeah, I
would say control time, you cango back in time.

Okay, in that case, I think I would maybe want
to do the time

Yeah.
But if you start going back intime and messing things up, then
there's a whole like

Yeah, the butterfly effect.
No.
But maybe go back in time tomaybe to like re-experience
something or to double checksomething to fact check.

Yeah.
Yeah, just be like an observerbut not get involved in

like Scrooge.

Yeah.
Okay.

Yeah.

The Steve, I can't remember what it's called now,
the Stephen King novel where hegoes back in time,

I've never read any Stephen King.

if you ever do, I would recommend this.
'cause it's, this isn't a scaryone.
It's this guy discovers a kindof portal that goes back to, I
wanna say it's 1960 or 61, andhe tries to think what he could
do in that time.
So he ends up waiting for acouple of years to try and stop

(40:36):
JFK being shot because hedecides that is a really
significant time in history andit's really great.
It's a really great book.
It was made into a good TVseries with, I wanna say James
Franco was the lead, but Yeah.

this does sound familiar,

yeah.
It's a really good Stephen Kingone'cause it's not a scary one

but you don't remember what it's

a thriller.

You don't remember what it's called?

I think it might be called 11 22 63.

Oh, hold on.
Yeah, let's, yes, that is whatit's called.

Yeah.
Okay,

Good job.

thanks.

What, how do I want to, what is the order in
what I wanna ask you thesequestions.
What is your worst fear

Um,

question in the book.

yeah, my, I guess my kind of big answer would be
losing people that I love.
I like have a lot of anxietyabout that.
Certainly when I was younger Ihad a lot of kind of intrusive
thoughts about that kind ofthing.
But like an easier answer.
I'm really claustrophobic.
Very g claustrophobic.
So anything that's like smallspaces.

(41:45):
I saw a video on Instagram theother day that was a diver stuck
under like an ice shelf notbeing able to get out.
And so things like that, orpeople exploring caves, there's
like slot canyons or yeah,anything like that really makes
me feel like very stressed.
So yeah.

I didn't really know how.
Badly.
I felt about that until I wentto Notre Dame,

Okay.

and this was before the fire, so you could
still go up to the top.
And we were walking up thesespiral staircases and you're, I
don't know if you've ever doneit or if you've ever been,
they're so compact and you havea person directly in front of
you and a person directly behindyou, just like filing up the
stairs.

(42:34):
And I had no idea how long thiswas.
I was like just walking andwalking to nowhere and it was, I
was having a panic attack.
However, I got to the top and itwas absolutely incredible and
stunning.
And I'm so glad I did it.
And I think had I known, oh,this is gonna be, it's gonna be
a 10 minute journey, but it'sgonna be fine.

(42:55):
There will be stops and starts.
But you got this.
I think I might have been okay.
But in the moment I didn't knowthose things and it was
terrible.

Yeah, that sounds so, it is just that once you
start to realize if you want toget out,

Yeah.
Yep.
No, there was zero.
There was no like, oh, excuseme.
I need to get past you.
There was nowhere to go.

Oh God.

So that was terrible.
But beautiful.
Highly recommend it, but knowthat going in, take a Xanax
before you do.
My last question that gets askedin the book that I will ask you
is, what's the best thing thatever happened to you?

Oh my God, there's it's hard, isn't it, because
there are loads of differentsmall, great things, but how do
you decide the defining thingthat ever happened?
The best thing that's ever

You did this to your character,

I know.

though.
It's in, it is interesting.
Back to the conversation aboutperspective, like the different
people that are having theirdifferent perspectives.
Who asks the question mightchange your answer.

Yeah.
I don't know.
I want to say I could say beingpublished was like one of the
like best things that everhappened to me, but it seems so
small in compared to so manyother lovely things that have
happened and.

It is also interesting that that's
professional.

Yeah, but it, I think with writing, it always
feels like more, it feels likeit's my identity.

Do you feel like that means work is your identity
or no?

no, I think the writing itself is the best
thing.
Like the, my favorite thing ishaving an idea and sitting with
that idea and not having yetcommitted it to the page.
And the joy of creating andimagining is, it reminds me of
being little and making upstories.

(44:52):
And I think I feel very luckythat my work takes me back to
that state because I've done a,a million other jobs before and
during being published,including being like a Christmas
elf, a waitress, like Katie's inthe book.
All kinds of like strange andwonderful I looked to as a child
minder for a while.
And so those were all greatjobs.

(45:13):
Actually being a Christmas selfis not a great job if anybody is
ever considering it,

Where were you with Christmas

have care.
I was a Christmas self at thelocal garden center where I grew
up.
I don't, do you have gardencenters in the us?
Do you call'em something else?

Garden center, like where you buy plants and
things.
So we have we have hardwarestores that have a garden center
department and it's, it will becalled the Garden Center.
So yes.
But you were at Christmas Healthat a garden center.

Yeah.
So in this context, like in asmall village it is just a
garden center, but it has, ittend to, if we have these, they
tend to have like home sectionswhere you get like beautiful
cushions and patio furniture andthere's usually a cafe because
British people love to eat cakewherever they go and have tea.
And so there's a cafe, and thisis a really big one.

(46:06):
And so at Christmas in itscarpark, it has a ice rink for
skating.
And they also put in a Santasgrotto because that will make
loads of money from all thesurrounding like towns coming to
see Santa.
And this was, I think after mysecond book had come out, but I

(46:29):
had left, I'd moved back fromLondon because I was like,
between jobs at the books.
I was getting paid a pittancefor them.
They weren't like selling loadsof copies or anything.
So I moved home for a while tothink about my next move, which
I think felt quite scary, likegoing backwards, having set off

(46:50):
and set up the city life, andthen coming back home, I guess
with my tail between my legs abit, like sheepish about this
false start and needing to startagain.
But anyway, my mom had seen anadvert in the paper for they
need staff for the grotto.
What a lovely, jolly way tocheer you up in this difficult
time in your life.

(47:10):
So I went and interviewed and Idid get a job, which would, was
good because I think myself-esteem could not have taken
it at that point had I not gotthe job at the grotto.
But it was not jolly.
It was very long hours.
The system they'd introducedthat year was that you had to
book a time to come and seeSanta.
You couldn't just turn up, whichwas a difference to previous

(47:32):
years, which meant that I asthe, actually, so part I was the
QL for a while and I moved to bethe toy shop elf, which was a
nice job'cause you could hide inthe toy shop, but the QL had to
spend their day turning away

People who didn't make

who wanted to see Santa being the actual
antithesis of Christmas, likesending crying children on their
way because Santa was fullybooked for the, like next

Oh my God.

yeah, someone also got vomited on the, yeah, one of
the other Elfs.
Not me, thankfully.
But yeah.

Yeah.
So that

So

okay.

that was not the best thing that ever happened to
me, that

no.
But I, I unpacking, gettingpublished as the best thing that
ever happened to you, I thinkmakes sense.

Yeah, I don't think that is my true answer.
That is definitely one of thelike key events of my life, and
I feel very lucky about it.

I, there is something to be said about, if
we change the phrasing of it andsay you got you.
Your passion was validated

yeah.
It put me on this path and I,and although it has been like a
winding path at times, beforethis book, I actually had five
years where I didn't write Iit's been five five years
between the two books beingpublished, and during that time
I had this massive crisis ofconfidence where I'd just.
Started and abandoned 12separate novels.

(49:09):
So I had this really long darkstretch where I just thought, I
might never do this again.
I think I've lost My confidenceso much that I'm not gonna be
able to write another book.
But luckily how many

we are.

it did eventually come.
So yeah, it hasn't been like astraightforward path, but it is
one that keeps me great joy andsatisfaction and I don't know,
contentment, I guess when it'sgoing which isn't all the time,
but,

sure.
And it, and to some degree, thecreative element is something
you can control right?
Whether or not it gets publishedis not in your control, but the
idea that these ideas come toyou, that you have something in
you that makes you put them onthe page,

yeah.
Yeah.
And you get to connect.
I've met some really greatfriends through this career.
That's how I met Chris.
And so it has shaped my lifehugely and connected with some
really wonderful readers andpeople who are like, just so
kind.
And it's a real privilege to dothat as a job.
And yeah, so I definitely, thatis the one of the most

(50:18):
significant things that's everhappened to me.

Yeah.
I love that.
That's a great answer.

Do you know yours?

answer.
Oh geez.
It's hard I think to think aboutone thing.

Yeah.

However, the first thing that comes to mind
is when I was three years old,my mom took me to see Peter Pan,

Oh

and I think it was, and that really set.
Me on a path and made me who Iam today.
And I

So lovely.

it was so in turn, I think I would have to
say something like that was thebest thing that ever happened to
me.

That's so beautiful.

yeah, I think, but it also sounds lame.

No, it doesn't sound late.
That's a really nice one.
Yeah.

I appreciate that.

Yeah.

Nikki Cloak, I am so happy to have you.
Thank you so

so fun.

being here.

Thank you for having me.

Her many Faces by Nikki Cloak is out now.
Wherever you get your books, sogo get it, experience it, and
enjoy it and not be able to putit down just like me.

Thank you.

wait, where did, here we go.
I wanted to make sure I had yourbook next to me.

Tess Sharpe (51:48):
you're so sweet.
I love that cover so much.

This cover is out of control, the amount of books
that you're gonna sell becauseof this cover alone.

Oh, you're so sweet.
I was, I had a vision.
I, like, I either have no visionwhatsoever for the cover or I
have a really specific vision Isent in lesbian Pope novels from
the 1950s as examples, and thenalso a bunch of foreign, um,
romancing the stone covers andlike the Indiana Jones movie

(52:18):
posters from the 1980s because Ireally wanted that kind of luck.

Yes.
Okay.

I got

get into that.
Yeah.
Uh, it's, it is so good.
Even my husband was like, Iwanna read that book just
because of the

That's so sweet.
I, yeah, I am.
I am so delighted with it,

W We will talk about it in a second, but Tess
Sharp, welcome to Gay's Reading.
Thank you for being my guest gayreader today.

and thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to talk aboutwhat I'm reading.

Tell me, what are you reading now?
I have to know,

I am doing a reread summer, partly because I have
like six projects that I'mworking on in various,
Categories right now.
Like I'm drafting something, I'moutlining something.
I have a ghost write that I'mdoing in like six weeks.
Um, I am rewriting two novels.
Um, and so I was like, I'm gonnafocus on books that I love, that

(53:13):
I really want to revisit.
and it's been so nice because Iam not drafting ya right now.
And I really try to stay awayfrom reading ya while I'm
drafting it because I find thatthe voice bleed is the biggest
there.
And so I finally have like digotten to dive back into some of
my YA favorites.
I'm reading rereading, um, itgoes like this by Meel Morland,

(53:37):
which is a book about a, it's aya book about a queer band that
broke up.
And the two girls involved inthe band also broke up, and it's
about the aftermath of it.
It's a book that really remindsme of how far we've come in
Queer.

(53:57):
Ya.
You know, it's the kind of bookthat I would've loved to read as
a teenager when really all wehad were like coming out
narratives and it's one of thosebooks that when I was a teenager
it wouldn't be published and nowit's just part of this beautiful
pantheon of queer ya that isjust so delightful.

(54:19):
I'm 38, so when I was a teenagerwe were just starting with Queer
Ya.
And it was really, um, a lot ofcoming out narratives, and so it
really just, in the span of mycareer, I've been publishing
since 2000.
My first book, my first career,ya came out in 2014.

(54:39):
I sold it in 2012.
So I was 24.
And that was really thebeginning, just in that tra just
in that 12 year time period, youknow, it's just exploded in such
a beautiful way.
Partly because, um, 2015 I thinkis when, um, Simon vs the homo

(55:00):
sapiens agenda came out.
Becky Albert Albert's book.
And that really was the one Iwould say that taught the
industry that queer ya could becommercial and a good investor.
Um, and so we've really takenoff since then.
But like I remember when I, mydebut was 2014, the year before

(55:21):
Simon, and it was the, it wasthe first queer book that my
publisher, which was Hyperion atthe time, had published in like
seven years.

Wow.

It was one of the only SIC books.
Of that year and now it's soamazing to be like one of many,

Uh.

you know, it's It's so beautiful to see, especially,
you know, with ya, yourreadership cycles in and out
about every eight years.
It's the challenge of it, youknow, you have to keep up with
them.
Um, and they will tell you thatthey hate something to your
face.
That's what I love about them.
Teenagers are bullshitdetectors.

(56:07):
And so it's really beenbeautiful to see the subcategory
basically evolve with the kids.
It's been really beneficial.
It's been really wonderful.
And then I'm also reading GayThe Pray Away by Natalie Nadi.
I had the, um, lovelyopportunity to read it when it
was released as an indie book,and then it got snatched up by

(56:29):
trade.
But I love this book because itdoesn't, Natalie is drawn, it's
a really personal book forNatalie.
You can tell Natalie is also anamazing narrator.
If you, if we, if the listenersdo not know though, I'm sure
that you probably do.
If you've read, you've, you're,uh, you're in the know of any
Sapp books.
She is queen of, um, the SICromance audio space.

(56:53):
But it's just so well done.
It's so touching.
It's so much about the power offiction, the power of love, and
breaking free from thesecult-like dynamics that are so
harmful.
And I really identify with iteven though I did not grow up
inside religion.
I grew up alongside it.

(57:13):
Um, and so it really, I think isone of those really important
books.
And one of those books that in away is going to act as a key to
breaking free of a cage.
That is what is so what happensin the book for our main
character.
And so I feel like that.

(57:34):
Double message is so beautifuland its double purpose is so
beautiful because it's going tosave lives in the way that books
saved the character's life andbroke her free and so powerful.

you.
Earlier we're talking about whenyou started publishing and or
when you were a teen, a lot ofthe stories were coming out
stories, and that was sort of,that was, those were the, the
queer stories that we weregetting and we're around the
same age.
And I feel, I hear this, I feelthis very deeply and something
that I'm obsessed with aboutnobody, no crime is, it is not,

(58:10):
the queerness is not the,essence of the story.
It's just a part of the story.

Yes, and it's so interesting because I toiled in
the Query minds for seven yearsbecause of that.
All of my books are like that.
I grew up in a really unusualsituation for someone my age.
Our age, you know, when our age,often when we were growing up,
we didn't know any queer people.
We didn't have any queerportrayals.

(58:37):
You know, that's kind of ourgeneration.
I did not grow up like that.
I grew up in a space where themost successful relationships
that I was surrounded by werequeer ones.
My mom.
My mom is, you know, friendswith so many artists.
And so I had my gun uncle whoare like her gay artist friends,

(58:59):
and I lived with them in SanFrancisco as a teenager.
I was, um, you know, my, mycousin Ryan, who is a writer as
well, Ryan O'Connell wonderfulwriter, wonderful novelist.
You have a short storycollection coming out

Ryan O'Connell is your cousin.

Yes.
But Ryan

how funny.

from a very gay family, and it's kind of true,
you know.

my God.

I know he's the best.
Both of my grandmother'syoungest grandchildren became
novelists and screenwriters.
It's so funny.
Uh, she would've loved it.
She would've loved to see bothof us on the shelves.
Um, she unfortunately passedaway before she could do that.
So I like to think that she issomewhat as an atheist.
I don't really think that she'sanywhere, you know, but I like
to think that she knew somehow,uh, but no,

right,

I love him so much.
And just, I'm so excited for hisshort story collection.
'cause I love him in short formjust as much as I love him in
novel form.
But he's so funny, like he gotall of my grandmother's dark
humor.
He's just so wonderful.
But he said, he says, you know,jokingly that we come from a
very gay family.
And it's kind of true.
You know, like the straightpeople are a little bit outlier.

(01:00:10):
And so I grew up in thisatmosphere where queerness was
really, really normalized.

Jason Blitman (01:00:18):
That's amazing.

Tess Sharpe (01:00:19):
that like queerness equals successful relationships
in a lot of ways, because all ofthe really long term
relationships that I wassurrounded by were queer ones,
you know, my uncles have beentogether for, but both sets of
uncles have been together forlike.
20 plus years, you know?

I think putting that contextually for
normalizing queerness is a greatplace to now hear about no, no
crime.
What is your elevator pitch forno body, no crime.

So nobody, no crime is about a rural PI who finds
herself on the trail of the onewho got away with her heart and
with murder.
So it's about two women who meeteach other.
While killing a boy at a sweet16 party because he is not a

(01:01:07):
very nice person.
And during the process ofmurdering him and burying him in
the woods at 16, they fall inlove.
And then one of them disappearsat 18 with no word, and the book
takes place six years later intheir mid twenties when the one
who has been left behind, who isnow a rural pi, is tasked by the

(01:01:31):
love interest Chloe's family totrack her down.
And she finds out that thesecrets and that the boy they
buried, they didn't bury themdeep enough.
It's my owe to,

Yeah.

Cohen brothers, the early Cohen brothers, raising
Arizona Fargo and also, youknow, the action romantic action
thrillers of the eighties,specifically romancing the
stone.
Very influenced by that as well.
And I heard someone say thatit's Tess Sharp at her most
indulgent, and I was like,that's very true.

But what's part of why I loved it so much is
because the stakes are real.
And yet I know that Tess iswinking at us the whole time.
I.

It is, it was a book that really came out of the
necessity of the Mother is thenecessity of invention.
I was supposed to write anotherbook during the time but I was
writing a TV pitch for my first.
Adult novel barbed wire heart atthe, at that during that summer.
And I was worried about voicebleed with the other novel I was
supposed to write'cause it wasmore in tune with barbed wire

(01:02:47):
heart.
And so I asked myself, what canI write during this period of
time?
'cause I have to write a bookproposal that.
Is not gonna give me voice bleedthat I'm not gonna, you know,
have any crossover with.
And the answer ended up beingwhat if I poke fun at everything
that I normally take reallyseriously?
And I'm someone who's likereally insecure about my ability

(01:03:11):
to be.
Funny.
Partly because it's like I'mrelated to Ryan, like I'm
related to a genuinely funnyperson, like genuinely funny.
I have really, really funnypeople in my family and I'm
really aware of the limits of myhumor, you know?
And so I was like, can I go thisdarkly funny?
Is the audience going to likeit?
It's such an outlier in mycatalog, you know, and I don't

(01:03:33):
think I'm ever going to, youknow, write another one like it.
But it was really like, of themoment, it was just like one of
those things where everythingcame together.
I had the time to do it.
I genuinely didn't think it wasgonna sell.
I thought it was a little tooout there.
And so I was really surprisedwhen it sounded like I gave it
to my agent.
And he is like, I don'tunderstand the peacocks because

(01:03:55):
he's a city guy.
And the peacocks didn't exist inthe proposal.
They only existed in the pitch.
So he is like, are you trying tobe camp?
You know, and I had to likeexplain to him that like in
rural areas, feral birds getloose.
Well, regular, well domesticatedbirds get loose, they turn
feral, they breed, and then theylike attack neighborhoods.

(01:04:16):
And it's so funny becausewhenever I talk about the
peacocks, somebody from a ruralarea has a bird story for me.
And then a city person is like,what are you talking about?
And so like I was like, I gaveit to Jim, my agent, and I was
like, look, it's weird.
I don't think it's gonna sell.
But I really liked writing it.
Let's just take it out if youlike it and we'll see.

(01:04:38):
And it didn't, it was out forlike five months and I was like,
I totally wrote it off.
Because that's just for my peaceof mind, you know?
I'm just like, okay, it's notgonna sell.
My silly book is not gonna sell.
And then it did, and then I waslike, oh my gosh, I have to
finish it.

Well, and not only did it, but like
M-C-D-F-S-G is

it's such a lovely

It seems funny for their catalog too in such a
fun

yeah, it really, it does, it fits into the kind of
weirdness of the, of the, of theboutique imprint.
And it's been reallyinteresting.
I've always been really part ofa big machine.
You know, I've been part oflarger imprints, you know, lots
of people.
And this is really, you know,Sean, McDonald's baby, and he's
such an interesting guy.
Such an interesting guy.
Editor so enthusiastic reallywonderful.

(01:05:26):
The team is just lovely.
I got to work with the wonderfulBrianna Fairman before she moved
over to Putnam.
So she edited this with me andhighly recommend her to any, um,
query writers on sub.
She, I think she's acquiring nowover at Putnam, and I had so
much fun with her.
She has such a beautiful hold onstructure, which is the thing I

(01:05:46):
am pickiest about.
All of my editors will tell youthis.
And she just, I just had so muchfun working with her and so much
fun, really pairing it down andmaking as propulsive as
possible.

when you were talking about the cover, talked
about all of the differentreferences that you sent,
including Indiana Jones, whichI'm embarrassed to admit.
I just saw Raiders of the LostArc for the very first time,

Oh my gosh.

in movie theaters.
And it was, and I had the besttime I.

Yes.
I really wanted the cover toreally evoke that.
Eighties action, thriller sense.
You know, I try, I like, I wentto my artist friends and I was
like, I sent them a bunch ofmovie posters and I was like,
what is this art style?
Because I was like, I don'tknow, I'm ignorant.
And, um, I think that it was myfriend Margaret Owen, who was

(01:06:40):
like, this is like, kind of whatI would call romantic realism,
you know, and that kind ofglossiness, that kind of burnt,
um, orange kind of color.
And just, I had such a wonderfulexperience with Zoe who did the
cover for me and just.

(01:07:01):
Dream cover.
When I saw it, I just gaspedlike it was everything that I
wanted and I really like.

Well, and what's so fun about it is that it,
having just seen Indiana Jones,what was incredible about that
movie is it is also in, on itsown.
Not joke, but it also doesn'ttake itself overly seriously.
The stakes are real.
The stakes are high, and yetit's playful and can, and you

(01:07:27):
can laugh at some of the thingsthat are happening.
And so immediately for me, thatset the tone for this book, I
was like, I know that I havepermission to laugh.
And so I was just sucked in fromjump and I'm obsessed.

It is.
I love to lean into thesilliness and campiness of gold
rush country and rural crimebecause truly sometimes it can
be so absurd sometimes.
Like, I think that we're reallyused to, and I, and I'm guilty
of this too, of really smart,competent criminals.
And so, and that's not alwaysthe case, and so to write about

(01:08:03):
like incompetent criminals wasreally, really fun.
You know, I love the bag ofdicks.
I love them so much.
They're so crazy, and they'rejust absolutely wild.
But they're also, you know,they're based on either
archetypes or actual politiciansfrom NorCal.
That's all I will say withoutgetting into too.

Yes.
This is gonna get me canceled.
Maybe you're gonna hang up thecall as soon as I say this, but
I had not heard the Taylor Swiftsong until five minutes before
getting on this call.

It is actually.
Okay.
This is hilarious though,because the person who named the
book also for did not know itwas a, um.
Taylor Swift title.
So I originally called it I hada really generic working title.
It was just called In The Pines,and I was just like, this is so
generic.
I like covers, I get titlesright, like every eight books.

(01:08:57):
Um, like I, I nail it like everyeight books.
And the rest of the time I go tomy writer's friend, writer,
friends, and I'm like, here'sthe pitch.
Throw some titles at me.

Yeah.

My friend Cindy, who is a wonderful thriller
writer, um, perfect littleMonsters, is her debut.
We were all throwing out na, youknow, throwing out things and
Cindy suggested No Body, noCrime, and everyone was like, oh
my God, Taylor Swift.
That's so funny.
And Cindy was like, wait, that'sa Taylor Swift song.
So, and I kind of love that andI was like, I mean, we could

(01:09:30):
forgive her because like Taytayhas so many songs at this point.
Her catalog is enormous.
We can't keep track, you know,she's so prolific.
But I thought it was so funnybecause I love Taylor's
specifically Taylor'sstorytelling songs of which
nobody, no Crime is a reallyclassic one.
I love the country genre of.
Songs that are about womenkilling men.

(01:09:52):
It is such a subcategory, a subgenre in the country music
scene, and so it was delightfulto kind of do a little ode to
that.

Like a such a what a great, happy accident.
And I was like in the fantasymusical version, it's like
Chapel Rone is doing the scorein my imagination.

That would be amazing.
It is actually just it.
My film agent just took it out,so we'll see what happens.

Fingers crossed.

Fingers crossed, always.

This has been so fun.
Thank you for being my guest gayreader today.

you.
This was so much fun.
I had so much fun.
I apologize for the horribleinternet as usual.
It's a clear ass day, but younever know out here.

No, that's okay.
I'm obsessed.
I wanna like come hang out inthe mountains.
That's amazing.

I, I have a lovely guest room,

Congratulations on the book.
I

Thank.

I loved it so much and I think the people
really need a end of summerblockbuster book to read.
'cause that's exactly what thisis.
It's fun, it's cheeky, it'sself-aware and it's that like
little action thriller that youneed to end your summer.

Oh, you're so sweet.
That's exactly what I aimed for,so I'm happy to hear that I
accomplished my goal.

Yes.
Goal accomplished.
Done and done.
Tess, so nice to meet you and Ilook forward to chatting soon.

Likewise.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you Nikki and Tess.
Her many Faces is out now.
Wherever you get your books, asis nobody, no crime.
But make sure to join us for theAugust Book Club through Stora.
I will see you next week.
Have a great rest of your day.
Bye.

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