137 - Dr. Kim Buck, PhD - No Man Should Suffer in Silence

Men rarely talk about what’s going on under the surface. Maybe it’s because society told us to “man up.” Maybe it’s because we never had the tools to put words to how we feel. Either way, most of us have learned to hide our struggles until they become impossible to ignore.

In this episode, I sit down with a Dr. Kim Buck, seasoned mental health professional who has spent 25 years helping others face these unspoken battles — anxiety, depression, isolation, and burnout — and she shares why connection is often the antidote. We explore how to recognize when you’re pushing too hard, the dangers of going it alone, and practical ways to rebuild emotional balance, one honest conversation at a time.

If you’ve ever wondered why it feels so hard to speak up — or you want to help someone who’s quietly going through it — this conversation is a powerful reminder that asking for help is one of the bravest moves you can make.

Key Takeaways

• Why most men struggle to identify and express their emotions
• The surprising signals your body gives when your mental health is off
• How isolation quietly fuels depression, anxiety, and addiction
• Why “toughing it out” usually backfires — and what to do instead
• Practical strategies for creating balance, connection, and resilience

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Learn more on her site. 

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I hope today’s episode sparked something within you to pursue your dreams and unlock your true potential. If you found value in it, consider sharing it with someone who might need that same push.

Getting After It is for those who. want to silence their self-doubt. Refuse to be owned by comfort. Understand their limits are man-made and breakable. We live in a time of constant comparison. Social media drowns us in highlight reels and overnight success stories. But what most people don’t see is the grit behind it all. The reps. The quiet mornings. The sacrifices. The failures.

You are just getting started. 

Keep Getting After It. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, perfect, Kim.
Thank you so much for jumpingonto the podcast.
I'm really excited to chatabout what we're going into
today.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Awesome, glad to be here.
Thanks for the invite.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
I have to ask is this your first podcast?

Speaker 2 (00:14):
No, really.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
So, you've been on one before.
I did a live webinar, a liveQ&A, for a few years.
It's a little bitnerve-wracking, but I've done
that.
I've done probably not many,I've done maybe a handful, four
or five Awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Yeah, if you don't mind, just letting everyone know
your background and maybe it'llopen up why we're talking today
, and then I'll hit you with myfirst question.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Absolutely Well, I am a mental health provider, so I
have been practicing and workingwith clients in the mental
health field, mostly adults, forabout 25 years and I love it.
I love what I do.
I have some pretty highspecialties.
Um, over the years you kind ofdevelop that.

(01:10):
Uh, hopefully, you kind ofdevelop your your lane, that
you're best at.
So I work only with adults.
I work a lot with sexualdysfunctions and couples and
anything from addictions andcompulsions to betrayal and that
kind of thing.
But I also do general mentalhealth for men and women

(01:32):
depression, anxiety, lifetransition, that kind of thing.
So passionate about it, love it, happy to answer any questions
or have an interestingdiscussion, maybe today.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, well, again, I really appreciate you jumping on
and it's definitely somethingthat I've gotten more passionate
about and interested in myselfbecause I've gone through my own
mental health journey, I wouldcall it where you know, I've
been down in the dumps quite abit and I think, a lot of it.

(02:03):
I'm not sure if you know thisabout me, but I I was sick, uh,
starting in 2021 around there,um which you know.
We didn't really know what wasgoing on with me.
Eventually we found out I havea, a tumor, tumor in my
pituitary gland.
Um, that's kind of damaged thehormone production in there.
Um, so my hormones were offbalance for quite some time and

(02:26):
during that time it was reallydifficult to one focus, to
manage my mood, because at thetime, my testosterone was really
really low.
I think when, when I was firstdiagnosed and they first did my
blood work, it was at 53.
Which is, yeah, I think it'stoddlers having more
testosterone than that.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
But yeah.
So I mean, it was definitely ajourney and things happened
where I was depressed and I feltlike I was broken and didn't
really know how to talk about itwith anyone.
And it was a weird time becauseI felt like I was stuck but also
, uh, a little bit intimidatedby asking for help because I um,

(03:11):
you know, I follow all theseNavy seals and I I read all
these books that people in themilitary right and I love that
kind of stuff, and you knowthey're always like.
You know, you just got to pushthrough, you got to dig deep and
fight those feelings.
But every time I would try anddo that it would never really
work.
And yeah, I think the firsttime I asked for help I felt

(03:34):
kind of shamed to do it in asense, because I looked at
myself as this tough guy whocould handle anything.
But at the end of the day thatwas not the case and I just at
the time didn't have the toolsthat I now know to help me with
some of those things.
But long way to ask my firstquestion.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
No, I appreciate you sharing that yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think it might just give some context
.
Yeah, but why do you think menoften struggle to talk openly
about their emotions and eventheir mental health?

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Well, I think that men are not typically trained to
do that from birth.
I don't think most times whenand I'm generalizing
stereotyping, of course, but ingeneral I think men are not
given emotional language, theyjust aren't.
I think they're not given waysto say how they feel, or they're

(04:33):
really just taught to deal withit and or to ignore it.
And there are times andoccasions when you do have to do
that.
We all have to Right.
We're not going to, you know,sit in our feelings all day,
every day.
It just isn't possible.
We have to do that, we all haveto right.
We're not going to, you know,sit in our feelings all day,
every day.
It just isn't possible.
We have to function.
So there's a balance we have tostrike there.
But I do think the pendulumswings pretty hard to the side

(04:54):
of not having language and notfeeling able to say what's going
on, and sometimes not evenknowing what is going on, just
knowing that I don't feel right.
And no matter what I do, Ican't make it better.
No matter what I read, nomatter how much I run or go to
the gym or hang out with buddies, anything, no matter what I do,

(05:16):
I come back to the same feeling.
Um, and you know, mental andemotional health are very
complex issues, just like thebody, Um, like you have
something are very complexissues, just like the body, Like
you have something, and they'reintricately intertwined.
So you had emotions going on afew years back that were pretty

(05:41):
intense, but there was also somephysiology that was
exacerbating.
You know the emotions.
But I think men try and pushthrough, as do women.
Um, I think men try and pushthrough, um, as do women.
So I don't want to say thatit's just men, but I think, I
think men have more of apropensity to push through and,
just like you know, buck up,just pull themselves up by the
bootstraps.
Just, you know, a lot of timesit's social that way you go to a
dad or an uncle or, and they'relike dude, I don't know, just

(06:01):
deal with it, you know theydon't have any answers, because
that's the answer they weregiven.
So that's, I mean, that's a biggeneral overview, but I think, I
just think it's socially.
It's socially unacceptable on alarge scale, because men
perceive themselves as weak,maybe if they have feelings that
they can't control or theydon't know how to feel better.

(06:22):
Um, you know, which would makesense why they would maybe avoid
reaching out for help.
They wouldn't, they wouldn'thesitate if they had a, you know
, sore muscle or go to thechiropractor.
They but like if they have afeeling they can't overcome.
So I'm not going to shrink, I'mnot going to do that.
That's for whatever.

(06:42):
You know that put me in thatcategory.
Yeah.
I do think we're improving.
Each generation is improving,because my generation always
call us the Oprah generation.
That's when Oprah startedtalking about feelings on TV and
so we were all like, oh, wehave feelings.
We're not necessarily good atthem, but I think, uh, the

(07:03):
millennial generation and thezoomers and some of the
generations coming behind us aremuch more, much more apt to ask
for help and to recognize thosethings, and the shame I feel
like is starting to reducearound mental health a little.
So that's, that's positive.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
I hope so.
Yeah, I mean, it is June andthat's one of the reasons I
wanted to reach out is I waslike I was talking to Allie and
I was like this is the firsttime I remember it being men's
mental health month, so I'mhoping that you know that that
stigma is going away.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
But you were talking a little bit about emotional
language and I'm curious if youcan give an example of that um,
when I talk about emotionallanguage, it's just being able
to speak, emotion, being able tospeak, feeling like I feel sad,
I feel mad, I feel lonely, Ifeel I feel shame, I feel um,
discouraged, whatever, I feeloverwhelmed, those, those are

(07:58):
all.
For some men, those are verysynonymous with weak.
Like somehow I should be able toto just magically figure those
out at 21 and 22 and 17 and 43and all the things Um and and a
lot of times we do, you know, wedo figure them out.
Over time they, they dissipate.
But there are, when it's whenit's tied to other issues, like

(08:21):
something physiological or, um,even something going on in our
life, like some sort of loss orsome sort of, you know, out of
control losses that you knowthat we can't manage on our own,
or maybe even something that'smight be, you know, like, like
clinical levels of depression oranxiety, or something we don't

(08:42):
manage.
That any more than I wouldmanage my blood pressure if I
was hypertensive, not the typeof hypertensive because maybe
I'm overweight, but the kind ofhypertensive I'm born with.
I don't just raise and lower myblood pressure at will, and so
why we expect that people cansometimes do that with feelings,
with emotions, I don't know whywe've done that, but that's

(09:06):
what we've done, and I guessthat's why I have a job.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
So yeah, I mean, it is something that's a need.
Like I am.
Yeah, my own experience taughtme that.
You know that's I, like yousaid, wasn't necessarily given
the tools growing up, um, inschool, and, um, like my parents
did a great job at like helpingme through emotions, but never,

(09:29):
you know, no shame to them butlike helping me understand, like
, oh, when you're feeling sad.
Here's what you should be doing, here's the thoughts you should
be telling yourself.
Because my issue and I'm surethis is kind of similar in some
men but is, I would have like adepressive thought and then I
would say, man, why is thishappening to me?
Like, am I actually broken?
And then it was like thisvicious cycle where I would just

(09:51):
continue to always just beatmyself down.
And that's one thing Allie andI actually she helped me a lot
with when we first be like gotmarried was my own mental voice,
like the voice that I wouldhave that would talk to me like
in in any way, if, if, thatmakes sense.
But like my internal dialoguewas just pretty rough.

(10:11):
I would always beat myself upand it wasn't good.
And she's helped me rewire thatand realize that those are just
incorrect thoughts.
They're not necessarily real.
Um and uh, do you know who DrAmen is?
Yes, so I actually waslistening to a podcast from him
today and he was saying that, um, when you feel like you are in

(10:37):
that sense of like you'redepressed, or you have these
anxious thoughts or these otherfeelings, um, your brain thinks
that your body's hurt or orsomething like that, and because
of that, you're like yourbrain's trying to figure out
okay, well, how can I get rid ofthis?
How can I fix this problem?
Um and yeah, I think it justbecomes a vicious cycle where

(10:59):
you can't get out of and youhave to ask for help at some
point can't get out of and youhave to ask for help at some
point, right, because that thatcycle is just fueled by.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
So if we weren't to go the shame route and just say
my brain's trying to heal itself, it's trying to figure things
out?
but, sometimes in that process,um, the messaging, the
messaging's no bueno, themessaging's not useful, not
helpful, um, because sometimeswe try and motivate ourselves by
the messages that maybe we'veinadvertently received, even
well-meaning there's a lot ofwell-meaning and well-intended

(11:32):
messages out there about justdeal with it, I bet so-and-so,
we start comparing ourselves toothers and that cycle, like you
said, it takes on a life of itsown.
And now we don't know, am Ibody sick?
Am I head sick?
Am I heart sick?
Am I spiritual sick?
Like you know, it all kind ofbecomes this, um, it just, it

(11:54):
kind of grows, kind of likesnowballs, you know, down to
going down, but I, I think youknow what Allie's done for you.
you know what you guys arefiguring out is amazing, cause
to me the inner voice.
So there's the being able tospeak into emotion and know what
emotion is, and then there'sbeing able to recognize my own
inner dialogue and what's trueand what's false and false.

(12:17):
Inner dialogue is powerful.
I it's.
It's powerful because we're inour head a lot.
We're driving, we're looking,we're on social media.
we're alone, we're at work, andthat dialogue matters because we
follow, we tend to follow it.
Now, if I've got a chemicalimbalance of some sort or some

(12:38):
other, maybe diagnose,diagnosable issue, that's where
we come into play.
That's where we can say no, thisis not in your control.
And let me tell you why.
And the more you try and fix itwith all of the well-intended
advice given by well-intendedpeople, the more, the more
crappy you'll feel, because youcan't, because it seems to work

(13:01):
for everyone else, why isn't itworking for me?
And now I've got something elseto you know, put in my what's
wrong with me bucket, um, which,if you're familiar with Dr
Brene Brown, she's like famousin the world.
She's a researcher, um, and herstuff is so good I would highly
recommend men or women, men,she's a woman, so it's kind of

(13:24):
written, I think in her language, but it is so applicable for
both learning how to challengeshame-based belief systems that
are well-established even by ourteenage years, and we don't
even need a parent or anyoneelse to tell you.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
We tell ourselves even your peers are like you
suck, you suck, you suck.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
You know, we, we, we get it in our head and then so
changing that takes effort andyou have to be really, really
intentional about it.
You have to recognize thatfirst of all, you have to be
willing to see what's going onand admit to it, and then you
have, and, and until we can'tchange anything we don't
acknowledge once we acknowledgethat we can make the change.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
How do you recognize those feelings or those thoughts
?

Speaker 2 (14:07):
I say this is just me .
I don't know if this is.
I don't know.
This is not based on research,this is just me, but I tend to
think that the body never liesso and I'm not a super body
aware person.
I'm old and I've had tocontinue to learn how to listen
to my body signals when I'mfeeling shame when do I feel
shame?
And I've had to continue tolearn how to listen to my body

(14:27):
signals when I'm feeling shamewhere?
do I feel shame, I tend to feelit in my head.
I just start tingling from thehead down.
When I'm embarrassed, when Ifeel upset, mad at myself I've
done something wrong, I tend tofeel it in my head.
When I feel anxiety, I tend tofeel it in my stomach.
I'd get a hit in my stomach.
It's like I, you know, it'slike an ache, it's like a burn.

(14:49):
Um, I don't think our body lies.
We just spend a lot of time notlistening to our body, you know
, and trying to ignore it.
So I will often tell peoplelisten to your body signals
first.
They will tell you and you needto learn what, where these
things live in your body.
And so if I say, where are youfeeling that Like, where are you
feeling that shame, or whereare you feeling that like

(15:10):
embarrassment, and you know somepeople will be like, oh my gosh
, behind my eyes, or you know myears are hurting, or so that's
a good place to start is to justjust to take a moment I mean we
call this mindfulness in the,you know, in the world of mental
health sometimes but just takea moment to be present and just
kind of body scan head to toe.

(15:30):
What am I feeling and, oh,that's, that's sadness.
I usually feel that straight inmy chest.
That's what I can't hardlyswallow when I can't hardly
breathe, that's when I'm sad.
My anger is my shoulders.
I just wear my shoulders likeearrings, just you know, like I
can hold it, so it's just beingaware, and then I can address
the emotion.

(15:51):
Then I can be like, okay, whatdo I need to do?
Do I need to talk to somebody?
Do I need to confront something?
Do I need to take a nap?
Like, what do I need to do todeal with?

Speaker 1 (15:59):
it?
Yeah, that's interesting.
Um, now that you got methinking about that, I recognize
like I've always been a warrior, ever since I was a little kid
I would.
We lived in Arizona growing upand like I was deathly terrified
of tornadoes.
And they don't happen inArizona, but like as a kid I was
like it's going to happen.
Every time there's a dust stormI was like this is it, and I

(16:19):
just feel like this pit in mystomach, like you were talking
about.
But then when I'm like anxiousfor something, like if I have a
presentation at work, it's in mychest.
Um, so it's kind of interesting.
Now you're saying that it'slike that makes a lot of sense
to me and I think men and women.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
but men, men, tend to be pretty in tune with their
body and I, I think sometimes, I, I hopefully, I mean they're
very often times they'rephysical, they, they're all with
their body, they're trying tofigure things out.
Sometimes they just need to addthe emotional piece to it.
It's not just that yourshoulders ache.
There might be, you might beholding emotion there.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, yeah, I'm curious.
What are some of the mostcommon things that men struggle
with in terms of feelings orjust mental health struggles in
general?

Speaker 2 (17:08):
I think I don't think this is maybe necessarily
unique to men, but I think menstruggle a lot with just
feelings of self-worth, feelinglike they're good enough.
You know, something that is soprevalent is the comparison Like
this.
That's something that we didn'treally have to deal with
growing up.
I mean, we compare ourselves tolike kids at school when we saw

(17:30):
them, or our neighbor he boughta nice car.
We'd be like man he got a nicecar.
I wish I had that.
That's about as much comparisonas you got, or maybe a couple
of things on TV or magazine, butthe comparison game is no joke.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
And I magazine.
But the comparison game is nojoke and I think, yeah, it's
amplified now, like social mediamakes that much more difficult
to manage.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
I feel like and we can see what people are driving,
the vacations are taking wherethey live, what they're doing,
their kids, theiraccomplishments, their degrees,
their, you know, whatever.
And you know, men have a deepneed to feel accomplished and, I
think, respected and um a deepneed to feel desired, and I
think, I think those are the.

(18:13):
Those are the areas that um,sometimes, sometimes men can
beset anyone.
You know, if I get into badhabits or you know if that's
another vicious cycle, I startdoing something that's against
my value system or betraying myvalue system, and then I start,

(18:37):
then the self-worth, you know,starts getting affected and I
can count on depression andanxiety, but but it's, it's most
likely situational.
If I can resolve my, if I canget back in line, get my, get
myself online and in line withmy value system, usually,
usually that stuff will willcorrect itself, unless it was

(18:57):
there before.
That's why I started doing thethings that I did.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
Hmm, that is really interesting.
Um, if you don't mind, maybeI'll put you through a real life
practice here.
Um, so I I'll be a little bitvulnerable here, but that is one
thing that I struggle with, uh,pretty consistently is the fact
of, uh, I'll achieve somethingor I'll work towards something,

(19:22):
and I'll be like man, likewhat's next, Like I got to do
something else, Like I don'tfeel, like that was enough.
Good example is like when Ifirst I love running and I ran
my first 50K, which is around 31miles, in Arizona last July,
and after I was done, like itwas a huge accomplishment it's
the furthest I've ever ran butafter that I was like man, like

(19:45):
it wasn't enough.
And it could be because I Iwatch all these ultra marathon
runners on social media who do250 plus miles like all the time
, Um, and I don't know if itcould be that.
But, um, like I'll achievesomething, I'll get to a certain
point and be like man I didn't,I didn't get to where I want to
go.
I need to keep going, Like thatkind of thing.
What do you think that is?

Speaker 2 (20:08):
I think.
I don't know exactly, but Ihave an idea that I mean, I
think it's that whole thing oflearning how to be okay with and
celebrate.
You know, celebrate ourcelebrate, take time to
celebrate our accomplishmentsbefore moving on to the next.
You know, some of us are justhighly driven.

(20:29):
You may be a highly drivenperson in certain areas of your
life, but but sometimes we candrive so hard we can drive
ourself crazy and we can drivepeople out of our life if we you
know or drive people we lovecrazy, crazy too.
So, moderation's the game,always in mental and emotional
health and figuring out when'smy like.

(20:49):
Is this just an interest, or isthis perfectionism?
Or is this?
Me comparing myself to what.
What's the standard?
That.
I'm putting myself to and why.
So I think it's worth aanalysis, probably to sit down
and think, okay, why am Iunsatisfied?
with an accomplishment that Ihave?
And why do I struggle tocelebrate me and not wait for

(21:13):
the next big thing to happen?
So that could be easilyremedied by hitting the brakes
and saying I'm going tocelebrate every hard one victory
.
I've done a lot of school, forinstance, and I've had a lot of
success and a lot of failure.
I've had to retake classes.
I've failed major exams.
It would have been very easy toquit, you know, just like a

(21:38):
marathon, if I tripped and fell,or ice cream, you know what I
mean.
Or my time wasn't what Ithought, but I'm really grateful
that I didn't, because I wouldnot have enjoyed all the
learning along the way.
So I think there's a maturityfactor to that.
Sometimes there's just a, youknow, learning how to stop the

(21:58):
smell of roses and all thethings that we do.
Um, I don't know that that'salways mental anything, but I
think it's.
It's emotional maturity.
And remember, we're in thatprocess.
We're technically adolescentuntil we're 27, which is kind of
crazy.
Our brain is still forming andfiguring out who we are.
We consider adolescents clearinto the mid to late 20s.

(22:20):
So, yeah, that's not a badthing, it's a good thing.
But it's really important toknow that I'm not always full
pre my prefrontal the part of mybrain that's reasons, you know
that says oh, that's enough andI'm a good person.
And I should probably not saythat.
I should say I'm sorry, that'sstill forming up until that age.

(22:41):
So I can be pretty limbic,which the part of the brain
that's just go, go, go, fight,flight, heavy emotion.
And sometimes we want to holdourself, you know, to a standard
that maybe our brain's notthere yet.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
That's another thing to thinkabout.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Maybe I need to sit down and do that.
I love to journal, and so thatmight be a good way for me to
just think about that, becauseI'm working on it.
I've definitely gotten betterLike it used to be you can ask
Ali, it was way worse, but now,like, we have done some of those
things like celebrate the smallvictories and, you know, try
and make the most of things.
And what's interesting is whenwe like, if we do have failures

(23:23):
and the things that we're doing,uh, we try and celebrate those
too, because we say, hey, atleast we tried and we did our
best.
Um, but failure is aninteresting one.
Uh, I feel like men deal withthat and women, I'm sure, do as
well, but I feel like men dealwith that quite a bit.
Um, that feeling of failure,either with the if they're
starting a business and thatfails, or if they start a

(23:47):
fitness journey and somethinggoes wrong and they don't lose
the 20 pounds they said theywere going to.
Whatever the scenario is, Ifeel like failure is something
that looms in men's minds.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
I think so too, and I think you just can't make
failure the destination.
Yeah.
Failure's just part of the.
It's part of the deal.
And I hate it.
Nobody loves it Like I've neverbeen, like, yeah, I'm so glad I
failed.
However, if I I'd always say,if I can ride out the storm, I
can always look back and think,you know, I learned something.

(24:20):
Here's something I learned fromthat that mistake, that failure
, that, whatever you want tocall it, there's a writer that
his name is Viktor Frankl.
I love him, yeah, and we alwaystalk about.
You know, we can handle any, anysuffering, as long as we can
attach meaning to it.
So sometimes we have to hold onfor the hindsight, we have to

(24:41):
hold on for the meaning, becauseI can look back at really
profound what someone wouldconsider failures in my life and
if I make a meaning out of them, they are manageable, I can put
them someplace and go.
Okay, that wasn't fun, but thisis.
This is something that Ilearned from it and I think, um,
for men there is some there's alot of pressure, there's a

(25:07):
pressure to succeed, there'spressure to, even the basics,
take care of their family, theirkids, their wife, you know,
whatever their situation is.
Um, even if they're single Iwork with single adults a lot
and they feel an immense amountof, you know, pressure to make a
certain amount of money, tohave a certain amount of you
know and I, and that that's hard, you know, and women face their
own, some of those and others.

(25:28):
but but but I think I think oneof the things that a lot of men
struggle with them and the, Ithink what we call it, it's like
the etiology, like thebackground to why some men
struggle so much with differentthings often has to do with
their inability to connect withother men healthily.

(25:48):
We live in a world that doesnot it?
our connections are so, um,unreal, like they're they're
very superficial superficialthat's the word I'm looking for
and uh, but most mental illness,a lot of even bad patterns,
addictions, things like that areall rooted in, um, unstable

(26:10):
attachments, not having secureattachments, um, because the
minute I'm imperfect or I messup, I stop connecting, I shut in
, I shut down.
And the one thing we need to behealthy individuals in this
world, based on research, ishealthy attachment.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Interesting.
Cannot not get healthy alone.
Have to have good attachment.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Can I not get healthy alone?
Have to have good attachment.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
That makes total sense.
Like, even when I'm super downon the dumps and we go and hang
out with some friends usually weget together with couples, it
one, it just it takes my mindoff of it immediately because
you know you have to be presentin that moment, you have to
connect with others.
And then, too, it's like, yeah,you know they're probably
dealing with something similarand I might say something that

(26:58):
they can chime in and be like,hey, well, you know that might
be tough, but here's what I'vedone, something similar, and
here's what I've done.
Um, just sharing thatexperience with other people.
I think is is crucial.
Uh, it helped me a ton duringmy own journey.
Um, you know, I didn't reallyhave friends during the time,
but like close friends, I wouldsay.
But um reached out a lot to mybrother, uh, to my dad, to Allie

(27:22):
, uh, like all the, all thesepeople who I knew loved me and
cared about me and wouldn't mindif I just talked to him for a
little bit.
But, yeah, connection is huge.
It's um.
It makes me sad, though,because I know not a lot of
people have that support systemout there and they're looking
for it.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
And they're they just but.
But we're all out here, we canfind it.
We just have to get um open andawkward and ask and find your,
find your village, find your,find everybody has to have a
village.
Um your partner's awesome, butif you're not happy with your
partner then you have to havehealthy people.

(28:00):
Pass that Um, for men needother men, women need other
women and and family members andthings like that.
So the opposite.
Of you know, emotional struggleis connection for most people
but, they don't feel like itwhen they're in the middle of
the struggle.
In the middle of the struggle,all they want to do is isolate.
And then you take somethinglike you know, we've got the

(28:23):
whole consequence of COVID andwhat happened with the pandemic,
and we took the one thing awayfrom people that we need to be
healthy.
I mean, let's forget all the,even push aside all the medical
problems.
What we took away was theability to connect meaningfully,
and that that is where we'rekind of reaping the consequences

(28:46):
of some of that right now.
And so so the way we counteractthat and men, the way they
counteract negativity in theirlife and struggle with whatever
that struggle is, is to createwhat we call find a space where
you find common humanity.
That's what happened.
So if you see a buddy andyou're like man, I'm really
struggling, I can't get thisbusiness off the ground and I

(29:08):
feel like a piece of crap.
And you're like dude, I'vetotally been there.
I feel that way too.
It's like it just takes it'slike it's like an inoculation of
for shame, because you're notalone, you've come out of hiding
and you're loved anyway.
Like that's magic it's justmagic, it really is.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Like you get someone who understands you and what
you've been through and it's alittle bit easier to to get
through it just with someone whowho's done it before.
And you see them where they'reat and you're like, okay, maybe
I can, maybe I can push throughand and maybe I can learn
something during this time thatwill help me get better.
But it's that connection piecethat's interesting.
I like that.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
I'm curious what you saw during COVID actually, um,
cause you did bring, bring it upand now I just, yeah, I want to
know what was that like?
What?

Speaker 2 (29:58):
was uh, what did COVID do to all of us?
It was, it was sad.
Um, even for therapists, youknow, I feel like a lot of my
clients that I were I wasworking with with different
things just slipped right backinto old patterns, because again
they come out of hiding.
They've come out of isolationto get help and we could no

(30:21):
longer connect in the same ways.
They could no longer connect.
So, um, I don't think we evenknow the ramifications yet.
I think we're just starting tocrawl out and see, kind of come
up for air, literally andfiguratively, like you know what

(30:42):
happened when you shut theworld down and you tell people
not to go hold the hand of theirgrandparent as they pass away
or something like what I think.
I think we'll probably seeconsequences.
I think connections the biggestone.
Hopefully we'll use it as ateaching like, oh, I never, ever
want to find myself in thatsituation and people are
important.
You know I work a lot withaddiction and people who have

(31:04):
compulsive or addictive or youknow behaviors are just
sublimating.
They're trying to cope withlife in an unhealthy way, but
those are off the chart becausethey have nowhere to go, nobody
talked to.
So the one thing that feelsaddiction is isolation man.
So, my addict struggled the mostUm and most people just don't

(31:25):
know like you can get out of anynegative pattern with good
connection.
A therapist is a good start.
Obviously, family is awesome ifyou have that, but if you don't
, we're a family of humanity.
Find somebody, find people.
People are looking for the samething.
Somebody's got to make thefirst move right.

(31:46):
Someone's got to say, ah, Ineed help.
Let me take you to dinner,let's go get a drink or
something.
Or let's go, do you runsomething?
And or let's go, do you run?
Do you play ball?
Do you golf?
Do you pickleball?
Like?
What do you do like?

Speaker 1 (32:01):
let's go, you know, let's strike up a friendship
yeah, no, that's, that's superinteresting and I I mean, I I
saw that myself with with someof my friends during that time.
Um, you know, unfortunatelythey're they're no longer
friends just because they'vetaken different paths.
But a lot of it stemmed fromfrom covid, like just being
isolated, and, like you weresaying, I feel like a lot of

(32:23):
people just didn't know how tomanage their minds during that
time.
Um, it was a very uncertaintime, a lot of fear, I think,
and because of that, you know,like you said, people tried to
cope with it in different waysthat were unhealthy and, yeah,
hopefully, hopefully, you know,we don't see something like that
in the future.
But yeah, I do see the dangerin isolation for sure.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Hopefully we learned from it, so if heaven forbid
something like that happened.
We know we cannot isolate, wecannot be alone.
We'll have to figure out a wayI don't know what, but I mean
worst case.
You know we could get onlineand zoom or whatever.
But that's a very low level ofconnection frankly Like there's
something people will ask me alot Do you do zoom?

(33:07):
Like you know?
Will you do zoom?
I'm like, yes, I will do videocounseling, but I try, and for
me maybe it could be my age, butI try and make it the exception
, not the rule, because Ithere's something about being in
a room and um, being present tosomebody else in their, in
their struggle.
That is connecting and I cansee their body language better.

(33:28):
I can see, I can read thingsbetter and we just connect
better.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
So I'm always grateful and I have a lot of
people are like never zoom, I'llnever do it, I'll cancel, I
feel like I'm the same way, likeI um, yeah, I mean I can see
the benefit for for zoom, youknow, therapy or or connection
in that way, if you know someonemight be scared to go try it
for the first time and they justwant to get into it that way.

(33:54):
But, um, definitely I thinkit's, it's beneficial, at least
for me.
This is me speaking here.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Well, for some people it works just great.
I I'm not.
I just think that there's it'sdifferent, right.
Like I think that's that'ssomething new.
That sort of really emerged outof COVID was all of the online
connecting around this stuff and, like I said, my age kind of,
I'm sure, like come to my office, come to my office.
I want to see you.

(34:20):
I want to see you interact witheach other.
It's hard for me to see what'sgoing on yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Um, that's funny.
Do you know who chriswilliamson is, by chance?

Speaker 2 (34:31):
no, I don't think so he's he's another podcaster.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
He's actually the guy I listened to Dr Amen on, oh
okay, but he talks about thisthing called lower forms of
communication and at the top,obviously the best way to
communicate is in person, soface-to-face, like you were
saying.
Second to that would probablybe a Zoom call, Second to that
would be a phone call and thenit's like email text and it just
keeps going down that way.

(34:55):
But the lower that you go downthe list, the less connection
you have or the further you godown and because of that, like
you know, you're not.
If someone sends a text to youand it says, OK, that could be
read, OK or OK.
Ok, yeah.
It's like you just don't know.
You can't read emotions throughthrough texting, unfortunately,

(35:16):
and you know it's easy, it'sconvenient, but at the end of
the day, the best way that we'regoing to communicate is, you
know, if we are sitting togetheror however that looks.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
As often as we can.
Yeah, yeah.
Not always possible but it isthe highest form of being in the
same place.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah, I mean absolutely Like my wife, and I
see that right now she's basedin Mesa and so for about three
days of the week she's downthere flying, and it's
completely different when we'reFaceTiming versus when we're
together.
It's nice to be able to do thatbecause otherwise, you know, I
wouldn't be able to see her faceevery day.
But it's so much different andit's, I mean, it's not that hard

(35:57):
to explain because I feel likeyou know you, when you're there,
you're present, you're notdistracted, and yeah, I think
it's it's something I wish wewould.
We would do.
More is, like you know, hangout and do whatever.
So it's interesting you bringthat up.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, and I know too, like, like I know my, my own
husband, like there are timeswhen you know I can be that
person, Like I can be that I canbe that listening board, I can
be that like you know person,that we can talk about things
and I can help him throughsomething, or vice versa.
But there are times when I'mnot it, Like I just I want to.

(36:36):
Well, that's a lie, Sometimes Iwant to and sometimes I don't,
but like I'm so grateful that hehas enough, like he's, he's
created a village of his own ofmen that I know love, not just
him, they love me as well.
So they're never going to talktrash about me, but they'll talk
to him, I'm sure, about me.
I don't know if that's what heneeds to talk about Um, but I

(36:56):
trust that they're that kind offriend that would actually um
hold space for whatever and hecomes home sometimes from his
golf trip or his pickleball inthe morning or whatever, just
better, better able to connectwith me, because he's got good
connection outside of me fromgood people that love him and

(37:18):
that he loves and I'm just like,yeah, yeah, and I try and do
the same, right, so we don't putthat kind of pressure on the
relationship that you're my oneand only ever on yours.
If you can't be there for me,then I'm not going to be.
You know that to me that's,that's putting your neck on that
partner in a way that sometimesisn't helpful.
Isn't helpful.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Yeah, what are the dangers in that that you've seen
?

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Well, I just think it puts a lot of pressure on the
partner to fix the other person,like they don't know what to do
.
They, they love the person, butthey love their partner.
But if all my joy and my peaceis all found in just one person,
that's just an awful lot ofpressure on one person.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, I guess that's fair.
I can see, like you know, ifyou do have all your you know
stability in one person, we cancall it or connection in one
person and that person doesn'thave the answer.
You feel like you might justhit a brick wall and you're like
, well, there's nowhere to gonow.
It's like I'm stuck again.
And then they like, oh no andthen you wall and you're like
well, there's nowhere to go.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
Now it's like I'm stuck again.
And then they like, oh no, andthen you've, then you're stuck
in the wherever place you're in.
I tell couples all the timelike you want to be really
careful that you.
So if you take a partnershipand one and the other and you
put them together, um, you canput them together like this, or
you can put them together likethis, or you can put them

(38:35):
together like this, they're bothjust as close.
Yeah.
But this one.
Sometimes it can get a littletangled and messy.
Like if one person's sad, I'msad.
If they're happy, I'm happy.
If they're not, I'm not, yeah.
But in this regard we can leanon each other for support.
But if one person is in the pit, then at least there's somebody

(38:59):
up here to like throw the rope,you know like.
So this is just as close.
It's just, we were there tosupport each other, but but we
can't put everything on oneperson because it puts too much
pressure on the relationship.
And that's the same withfriendships.
Like I can't just have one,buddy, I gotta have like I gotta
have a few.

(39:20):
Cause there's a guy that helpsme, you know, at the gym and he
gets it, he gets my health goals.
And then there's a guy who getsmy relationship because he's
married too and, you know, has ayoung family or whatever.
And then there's like this,this, or whatever.
And then there's that, this,this, the buddy from work that
gets my goals for work.
Like, sometimes we need a grouplike, we need a, like, we need
a network of people in our liveswho are there to support us.

(39:42):
Some people are lucky enoughand a lot of those people can be
family, but a lot of timesthat's not the case for, I would
say, the majority of people.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Um, I'm sure you you've dealt with people who
don't have that support systembuilt.
Um, do you suggest any, anyways to start on that path of
like finding those people whoyou can rely on, or anything
like that?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, I, when I work with people, I, I, we just start
small.
Like I said, we start withfriends we go to the gym with,
we go to church with, we go toschool with work with.
You know everybody could lookaround and go.
Oh yeah, that guy's always beenreally nice, like he always
buys me a drink, you know take,you know, I always go to dinner
with him or something, and he'salways he's pretty open with me.

(40:27):
I just don't really say much tohim or her or whatever.
So you know.
So I think if you look around,you can build and nurture
relationships.
You just have to.
Sometimes you have to test thewater.
You know I tell people, don'tjump in the deep end, Don't be
like, hey, I just want to tellyou about my divorce, Like you
know, I just want to tell youabout my this problem or that
problem, but give one littlebenign, you know, like, yeah,

(40:51):
just a little, put your toe inthe water with them and see if
they're a safe person.
Do they hold confidence?
Do they give you good feedback?
Are they reciprocal in thevulnerability?
Do they share things in returnor are they just taking it in?
So kind of, test the water andsee if they're a safe person for

(41:11):
you and start small.
Find people with common hobbies.
That's usually for for guys,that's kind of it.
Yeah.
Girls we can be like let's goget her nails done.
Talk about life, you know.
And guys they have guys tend tohave to find guys who share
interest, like they're runners,like you said.
They find their running crowd,they find their, their bikers,

(41:33):
they go to the gym there wherethey have some kind of unique
hobby.
You know they they like dragracer, drag racing or I don't
know.
They find the thing that andthen they're.
They're usually confinedfriends in in those areas.
But but we will not be healthywithout good connections, men or
women, we just won't.
People with low connectionsspend a lot of time in my office

(41:56):
.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Oh man.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Scratching their head saying I can't figure out why I
feel how I feel I'm like.
So have you talked to anybodyabout that?
I remember we were going tocall somebody and they're like
oh yeah, no, haven't done that.
And I'm like well, I bet you'regoing to schedule another
appointment because they'reusing me as their connection and
because I'm ethical.
I won't let them do that forlong.
But I, I I'm always workingtowards building their network

(42:22):
and working myself out of a job.
Every therapist should beworking themselves out of a job.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
I like that mindset.
Um, yeah, that's, that'simportant.
Um, do you think the mainreason people don't do that Like
oh yeah, you know, you said youwere going to make a phone call
Do you think that's just out offear, like trusting someone
initially, or what's that like?

Speaker 2 (42:41):
I think so, and a lot of people.
If you've lived in this worldlong enough, you've had betrayal
.
Yeah.
Somebody hasn't kept yourconfidence or you know they've
talked about you behind yourback or they haven't shown up
when you said.
They said they would, um,because people are fallible.
Um, but we have to recognize Ihave that trust issue He'll, you

(43:03):
know, do whatever I need to doto heal.
Work through it.
Journal is a great way.
Write about it, talk about itwith someone you trust and then,
but, but don't quit trustingbecause someone was
untrustworthy.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Right, yeah, there is good.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
There are always good people out there but there's
also going to be bad people outthere and you just have to like
well, people are in their ownwounds, right, they kind of they
.
They act in their own, theirown, it's their own struggle.
So if they don't show up orthey do something that they
shouldn't, it's usually comingfrom their own injuries.
So when I see people that waythen I don't personalize it

(43:34):
quite as much.
I'm like oh, I really hope thatthat would have been a friend,
so it will be more of an arm'slength acquaintance or something
.
But we have to keep testing thewater and keep pushing towards
connection Always.
That will help everything.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah, I love that and it is interesting about
connection and stuff and you canfind connection through hobbies
and stuff like that, like I wastalking about with running.
I um one of my friends.
He's coming on the podcast onThursday but his buddy was
running 31 miles for his 31stbirthday at a park, um, and the

(44:09):
park was a one mile loop and Ididn't know this guy but my
buddy invited me there and I waslike okay, sure, why not?
And I ran 10 miles with thisguy and by the end we were like
good buddies and it's justinteresting, it was like an hour
and 20 minutes of just usrunning around but at the end we
were like, hey, we should hangout sometime.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Well, you have the same interests.
It's like automatic.
You have something that bringsyou together.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yeah, and I think it also part of it's like you have
to put yourself out there.
You know you have to look forthose opportunities and it could
be scary at first, but I lovethe quote that fear is a mile
wide but an inch deep, like itlooks like this huge scary thing
that's in front of you, butonce you step into it you're
like this isn't as bad as Ithought it was and you just walk
through.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Well, and sometimes we can learn how to embrace the
fear.
Like the fear is part of what'spushing us, like, why do I feel
afraid of that?
I'll tell people, like, ifyou're afraid to go to therapy
or you're afraid to do thisthing or that thing, that's
probably your indicator that youneed to do it.
You know, to me it's we eitheravoid or we embrace.
But we can't learn withavoidance.

(45:14):
We can only learn with try.
You know, I have a funny storyabout running that just occurred
to me when you were saying thatmy son-in-law is a distance
runner, he's an ultra runner,he's running his first hundred
next month.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Holy cow.
Do you know where it is?

Speaker 2 (45:31):
I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Oregon somewhere.
Anyway, he has a cousin who isa runner and his wife was a very
well-known runner and uh, shewas running in new york city.
She was there for treatment,cancer treatment.
She was running around centralpark, her and her husband, and
uh, chip gains was sitting on abench.
I don't know why he and hiswife were there but, saw them

(45:55):
running and stopped him and saidhey, I want to learn how to run
.
And she, she's like okay, he'slike who are you?
Anyway, they struck up thisfriendship and she became his
trainer.
When he started to learn how torun, she passed away from her
cancer and he raised tons ofmoney for her foundation.

(46:15):
And all from just peoplewilling to put themselves out
there and say, hey, it doesn'tmatter who they are, they, he
happened to be a famous person,but I mean sitting on a park
bench.
Nobody was there.
There's no cameras, there's nokids, there's no nothing.
He just saw these peoplerunning and they just happened
to be.
You know, somebody that relatedto my son-in-law, but I thought

(46:36):
it's such a good example of youknow that related to my
son-in-law, but I thought it'ssuch a good example of you know,
this is how we survive well inin society is we connect, we
find common common interest andcommon humanity in each other
and a lot of our mental issuesand emotional issues just get

(46:56):
swept into, you know, and get,get helped through.
That it's not everything, it'snot one and done.
I'm not saying that, but butit's such an important,
important element.
Um, sue Johnson's a bigresearcher in my field and she
talks all about all, all aboutemotional connection and and and
attachment and secureattachment and what that has to

(47:19):
do with relationships andindividual mental health.
So I very much resonate withher work and, as I see people
make good connections and startto do that, their life just
improves.
It just improves.
It's not everything, but it's abig piece of the puzzle.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Yeah, no, I think that's amazing and for me it's
almost like you become, like yousaid, more emotionally mature
and you become more familiarwith these feelings that you you
do have and you're able tomanage them a lot better.
And some of that is like okay, Ineed to reach out to Brian at
work, because he understandswhat I'm dealing with there.

(47:57):
Or Johnny at the gym, whereverit is like having these people
to help you um, at least givesyou more ammo to be able to to
deal with it yourself and to tolearn from it.
Um, because, like you know, Italked about at the beginning
how I've had mental healthissues, um, and I wouldn't say

(48:19):
they're a hundred percent, youknow, gone, gone or like cleared
up.
But I'm definitely better ableto like manage them and be like
okay, well, I'm feeling kind ofangry, like did I sleep Okay,
did I not sleep Okay?
Like what, what did I eat today?
And just trying to understand,like what happened throughout my
day that might've led to thosefeelings, and then be like, okay

(48:40):
, well, I know it'll end and Iknow I'll be fine tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
So it's okay, it's temporary.
That kind of sparked an idea,though, like another really
important piece of managingemotion is creating structure
and balance and the key areas oflife.
So most times when we areextremely we're struggling a lot

(49:05):
with something you can look at.
I have people.
One of the tools that I givepeople like right out of the
chute, is I have them do what Icall dailies.
I have them focus on four areasof excuse me, five areas of
their life emotional, physical,excuse me, personal, physical,
spiritual, relational Four.

(49:28):
I do so many of these.
That's what I have to do Fourand they set two goals in each
of those areas.
So, personal are like goal,like interests and hobbies and
things like that.
Um, physical, obviously, istheir body, sleep, diet,
grooming, whatever, um.
Spirituals, whatever theirspiritual practice, is their
connection with their higherpower, um, and then relational

(49:49):
connections with others.
So I have them set two goalsthat they and they might already
be doing some of them, but Ihave them be very intentional
and track those two things theydo every day in those areas and
if they come in and they're offkilter, I'll say tell me about
your dailies, and they tell methe same two words every time oh
, yeah, oh yeah, I forgot aboutthose.

(50:13):
I'm like okay, so, and I thinkabout it too in my own life,
like, and I adjust those asneeded, like you said, like we
have to be good stewards overthe one thing we have, which is
us.
Yeah, we are stewards over us.
So so if I, if I'm doing toomuch work and not enough
connection with the people thatmatter, I'm going to have a

(50:34):
problem.
Too much playtime and notenough spiritual practice is
going to be a problem.
You know not if I'm doing toomuch a problem.
Too much playtime and not enoughspiritual practice is going to
be a problem.
You know not, if I'm doing toomuch work and too much church
but not enough like hobby andthe things that make me me, I'm
going to have a problem.
So I have a colleague that sayslife, life really is like
trying to stand up in a canoe inrough water without pads, Like

(51:01):
you're constantly.
You're constantly shifting yourweight, trying not to go over,
and sometimes we go over, getback in the boat, but just
realize, like you know, balancedminds require balanced behavior
.
We have to create a structurethat will support our mental and
emotional health.
So look into my life and saywhat am I doing for myself
physically every day, on purpose, Like?

(51:24):
I try and evaluate those everySunday and I set them for the
next week.
And you know I'm going to haveto get extra sleep this week
because I have extra hours.
Or I'm going to have to makesure that I'm eating because I
have I you know I'm eatingduring the day, or I'm I'm
eating the right snacks duringthe day because of whatever.
Or, um, I need to make surethat I'm reaching out to friends
this week, or talking to mykids, or talking to my spouse or

(51:45):
whatever Like, um, we have todo that on purpose, not
happenstance, because thestructure and, yeah, structure
and balance will just createbalance.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Yeah.
I love that.
I, um, I I believe that youknow you cannot improve what's
not being tracked and I feellike this is a great start to be
like okay, well, like you said,those four areas, I'm going to
set two goals in each one andI'm going to revisit them
because you know, I um, yeah, Iyeah, exactly, and you can see

(52:16):
that, um, I always likeno-transcript.

(52:49):
I'm getting better.
And then two, if there isprogress, like where can I
double down and improve evenmore, or whatever that looks
like.
But I love that and that's agreat exercise.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, it's simple and everybody should do it.
It doesn't matter if you're astruggler or not.
Just I think the the world welive in really creates the
temptation to be out of balancein a lot of ways.
I can find myself droning outon social media for, like, flat
out, I'll look in.
The time is 30 minutes and I'mlike, how did that happen?
Um but if I, if I am holdingmyself to account and giving

(53:26):
myself some making sure that I'mcounterbalancing those kinds of
temptations just to lean toofar on one corner of that canoe
and throw myself over um, then Iwill, and then I will manage
what life throws at me just alittle bit better.
Um, I just will be able tohandle the work stress, the

(53:46):
relationship stress, the youknow health stressors, the money
stressors, whatever it is thatyou know come at us Um, but that
, like I said, that's a, that'sa baseline assignment I give
almost well, I would sayprobably every one of my clients
like I can't, I can't, youcan't, come to me and magic in

(54:07):
45 minutes, and then you'regoing to leave and be like I got
it.
You know, it's about how youpractice at home and you know,
and the insight you get whenyou're with me is should be the
icing on the icing on the cakeof the cake you're already
building in your life.
Do you have any other?

Speaker 1 (54:25):
tools that you recommend for that.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
That's my big one.
I call that dailies.
I do a lot.
It depends on what the issue is.
That's the big one for balance.
Sometimes I give couples I do alot of couples work, so I give
them tools on how to communicateabout things.
Um, I love Gottman's work Maryand John Gottman.
I just think they're amazing.
They've done some amazing workwith couples.

(54:50):
Um, but I would say I would sayget good connection, create
balance and by creating routineand structure in your day, um,
make sure that relationalconnections are in there.
Um, have accountability, havepeople who can hold your feet to
the fire but love you the same,you know.

(55:12):
Um and get help when that youknow.
If that doesn't help and youare doing everything that you
can, then that's what we're for.
Yeah that's what.
That's what I'm trained to do.
So then we can start kind offiguring it out, analyzing and
figuring out.
It may be chemical.
It may be that maybesomething's going on with the

(55:35):
body.
Something else is going on withthe body.
People will come in withextreme levels of depression.
I will send them to theirdoctor first.
I want full blood plan.
I want thyroid tests.
I want.
I want to do that and rule thatout.
First, um, hormone tests, thosekinds of things like what you
were mentioning.
Um, because that's notsomething you can just will

(55:55):
yourself right.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
You know your body can, yeah, yeah as much as you'd
like to, it's it's, it's almostimpossible, like I wanted to
believe I could.
So bad and um, I I love whatyou said about like this, the
world doesn't really preachbalance, like it wants you to be
unbalanced.
Because when I was um first incollege, I told you like I

(56:17):
follow all these navy seal guysand they're always about like,
go, go, go, like, push yourselfas hard as you can.
Yeah exactly David Goggins and Iwas like, okay, well, that's,
that's how I have to be if Iwant to be a successful person.
And I quickly like I don'tburnout's probably the best way
I can explain it.
But within like three years Ilike developed all these weird

(56:39):
um, I guess, mental andemotional issues, I think just
because I tried suppressingeverything I was feeling so I
could just be productive.
And it's interesting, like Ilook back now and I'm like that
was the wrong way of dealingwith it, but I'm glad I have
that, that understanding now.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
And then you know what not to do next time you
feel a certain way, you'll belike.
I tried that.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
I'll try it this way.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Right.
So it's pretty interesting.
But I am curious because I feellike a lot of men, like we've
talked about, just don't knowhow to ask for help and that can
be a scary thing.
And I know men are more correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ithink they're four times more
likely to commit suicide.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I don't know the exact stat, but I know they're.
Usually they use more lethalmeans and they're more
successful at it when they do.
Yeah.
Generally.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
Yeah, generally so.
Um, if someone's not, you know,ready to ask for help, are
there common signs that lovedones can look for to you know
spot if something might be wrongwith someone, and, if so, what
should that person do to offerhelp, if any?

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Yeah, that's really tricky.
It's tricky because, um, whenyou're dealing with an adult,
you don't have a lot of control,meaning the control lies with
them, but isolation is one ofthe first Shutting in.
Not going, not connecting withor reaching out to or engaging

(58:14):
like they normally would, wouldbe a huge red flag for a big
problem.
That would be number one.
Um, what they say, how theytalk, are they out of sorts?
Do they talk about?
Um?
Do they talk?
You know, is is, is it a pretty?
Is it a dark conversation?

(58:34):
You know?
what I mean it's a negativeabout themselves or others.
Um, that's another one.
I mean, there's some others,depending you know.
Are they financially failing?
Are they relationally failing,Like what's going on?
And for families?
Sometimes you have to takeextreme measures to save
somebody.
I just flat out ask I'm justthat person.

(58:58):
I'm just like are you feelingsuicidal?
Do you want to hurt yourself orare you feeling and oftentimes
people are shocked that I ask itbecause most people dance
around it- Um they don't want tooffend the person and I I'll
take the risk because I will dowhatever.
If there's someone I love tosave them.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
So I would say, ask the question, do it gently, do
it kindly, you know like findyour, find your Avenue, but are
you feeling?
Are you feeling this way?
Are you feeling that way?
How far have you gone withthose thoughts?
Um, have you made a plan?
Yeah.
You know, um, suicidality is oneof the saddest, because you

(59:39):
know it's, it's a, it's a hardbattle with depression,
depression.
But, um, I, like I said, Ialways go in the front door,
like I, I I'd love to have youin my life for a long time, I,
even if you don't want you in mylife.
Um, so what can I do to help?
Do you need, do you need, me tocheck in with you?

(59:59):
Do you need?
You know there's lots ofresources there's.
You know you can always just goto the ER.
You can go.
There's what's mind, there'sthe emergency.
Now, I'm trying to rememberwhat it's called.
You can just they're open 24,seven, like an ER, but for
mental health, mind, I'll figureout what it is that said it to

(01:00:23):
you but really, really helpfulfor people in an emotional
crisis.
Um, sometimes people just needsomeone to talk to and sometimes
they need intervention.
They need a doctor, they needmeds, they need, they need
something in the interim untilthey can get the help that they
need.
Um it's scary.
Mental health is kind of scarybecause a lot of people just

(01:00:45):
don't know what to expect.
You know they?
Well, they're like what arethey going to tell me something?
You know, I don't know what.
They tell me things I don'twant to hear.
They're going to make me dostuff I don't want to do.
Um, and most of the time whenpeople come in, I'm like well,
I'm not the expert in your life,you are what you know, so I, I
don't.
I can, I have some educationand some knowledge and I'll

(01:01:07):
shine lights, you know, here andthere, and give you some ideas,
but it's your job to take thepath.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Yeah, I love that.
No, I I appreciate you goinginto that a little bit, because
that's something that'sdefinitely become something I'm
passionate about.
Because, like you're saying,like it's it's sad to see
someone just throw their lifeaway because, you know, they
can't get out of these cyclesthat we've we've talked about,

(01:01:35):
or or they feel like they'rebroken and there's nothing that
they can do to fix it.
We've talked about, or or theyfeel like they're broken and
there's nothing that they can doto fix it.
Um, and so it.
It makes me pretty sad, but Iknow that there is ways that we
can help and influence, um, helpinfluence for for the better.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
And we don't give up.
We, we save the people we lovethe best way and and we can use
our best efforts.
And it's not our fault if, youknow, things go another way
either.
But but mental health andmental crises are just like a
physical crisis, just like aheart attack or a stroke or
anything else it's.
It can be just as deadly andjust as a dangerous to

(01:02:11):
experience.
So what would I do if my lovedone had cancer or you know I'd
go to the ends of the earthlooking, trying to help them,
trying to find doctors that youknow that's what we do.
It doesn't matter what theillness is, um.
And if you're a man strugglingwith any sort of emotional

(01:02:32):
distress or you just can'tovercome feelings or thoughts
number one you have to knowyou're not alone.
Feelings or thoughts number oneyou have to know you're not
alone.
You are not alone.
Many men feel that way atdifferent points in their life.
It usually passes.
It usually doesn't stay.
I always tell people emotionshave a shelf life.
Just give it its time.

(01:02:52):
It won't last forever, eventhough it feels like it will in
the moment.
So do whatever you need to doto get through that day, that
moment, that minute.
But you're not alone and thereis help.
Don't be afraid to call aprofessional we're not all that
and interview your professional.
Find out who they are.

(01:03:13):
Do they specialize in men'sissues?
Do they specialize in this orthat?
Do they?
Will they meet your need?
And just because you don't likethem, the first visit or two,
doesn't mean they're not rightfor you.
Yeah, I can be a littleassertive with.
I've been doing this a longtime and people be like oh no,

(01:03:34):
I'm like don't leave, I got you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:36):
Sometimes it's good to hear, though, like sometimes
you know, um, I feel like that'sanother thing that this world
is really good at is liketiptoeing around the actual
issue, um, but you got to attackit head on sometimes.
So I think men especially wouldprobably appreciate that Um.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
I think so and I tell them that you might not be the
right person, but and it's okayInterview them, find out what
their specialties are, find outyou know who they work with and
how long they've been doing it,and you know um.
Look at reviews online.
They're everybody's reviewed,see.
You know if you know, get areferral from somebody you know.
If you have a buddy or two, sayhave you ever seen a therapist

(01:04:12):
or know anybody that has askingfor a friend?
No Asking for a friend.
But you know, like, do you haveany ideas?
Because I could, I couldrelease, and so sometimes people
you trust will know people.
I have so many people that willcall me and say, hey, my, my
uncle was your neighbor and saidshe seemed pretty cool and I'm

(01:04:33):
looking for somebody.
Like, oh, okay, you know, soask around.
That's the best way to findsomebody.
I think, um, psychology todayis usually pretty reliable.
Um, it breaks down people'sspecialties.
They're pretty vettedtherapists on psychology.
Today is a good place to findsomeone as well.
But awesome.

(01:04:54):
Look for issues, ask them.
This is what I'm strugglingwith.
Do you have any training in anymodalities that can help me?

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's good, like do your own
due diligence, um, but I'mcurious to what you would say,
because this was my issue beforegoing into therapy is what
would you say to someone who'safraid of being judged by their
therapist?

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
therapist.
Yeah, um, welcome to the club.
I would think most therapists.
I mean, I've been doing this along time and I will tell people
even in my intake look, I amjust not a judgmental person.
It just isn't in my nature.
But you might.
If you feel judgment, then youneed to ask.
You just need to tell me that,um, because what goes on in the
therapy or office sometimes is amicrocosm in life.
That's the way I show up inlife, right, and so I'll say if

(01:05:46):
you have resistance to thingslike that, I say or that's going
on, there's that's probablyhappening outside of here, so
let's just address it, just tellme, like I feel judged right
now.
Or I feel like you're, I feelweird telling you that Cause I
feel like you're going to thinkI'm weird or I don't know.
Um, and then I'll, and thenthen we can talk through it.
But I would say push throughthat fear and find somebody that

(01:06:10):
you feel comfortable with thathas the skillset to help you.
Um, your therapist will notknow everything, nor should they
.
That is not.
I am not an all knowing guru of, but I do have like a few
skills that sometimes arehelpful to people, specific
people.
I love working with men.
I work with adult men.

(01:06:30):
All the time I think thebravest men that I know have sat
on my couch and and are workingthrough variety of issues,
whatever they are, but I think,just to even put themselves, in
that situation tells me howcourageous they are.
Yeah, that's how I feel I have alot of respect for, because I

(01:06:51):
know it's awkward and I knowit's uncomfortable and probably
not where they want to be.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
Right, right, it really is hard, like you know.
It's it's what we were talkingabout at the beginning.
Like we've we've never beentaught this emotional language
that we need, really need toexpress ourselves and, um,
having someone on the other endwho can help you walk through
that it's honestly game changing, like it helped me so much.

(01:07:17):
It's honestly game changing,like it helped me so much.
Um, and like now I still see adoctor, um, about every three
months I'll talk to him and itjust helps me to be like hey,
this is what I'm feeling, andhe'll be like all right, well,
do this or do that, or like,great job here, but maybe you
could work on this area.
Um, and it's just like you know, it's good to have someone
who's seen things like thisbefore but knows how to manage

(01:07:41):
it and has also seen those samepeople get better, and so I
think it's just yeah, like Iwould agree with what you said
Step into that fear, becausewhat's on the other side is far
greater than what you'd expect.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
And what do you have to lose?
Right if you're, if you'reliving in some sort of
internalized hell, what do youhave to lose?
Yeah other than a little moneyand time, probably that, that
yeah that's fair.
But if the if they're anethical therapist, then they're
going to tell you how?
How do I get you out of here?

(01:08:18):
Let's get you out of here.
Let's get you into living.
What can?
I do to help you get there andwalk that journey with them.
That relationship shouldn't beforever.
It should be for that time.
So, like I said, I have a lotof respect for men who put

(01:08:44):
themselves in that vulnerablebecause it's not comfortable for
most and it's not been taughthow to do that.
It just has not been taught ormodeled, Not by any fault per se
of anyone.
But my dad still calls me ashrink.
He's 84 and I'm a shrink.

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
And that's fine I don't even know what a shrink is
, but I've never understood thatterm either.
If that helps.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
But you know, generationally that's what they
were called, like you know.
And so I love to see, I love tosee people embracing mental
health and figuring out, um,love that.
And I love to see peopleembracing mental health and
figuring out love that.
And I love to see men do it,because they're living in the
same craziness that all the restof us are.
And.
I think all of us want to be ashealthy as we can be, you know,

(01:09:31):
and I just think that there's alot of resources out there.
You just have to go find them.
And then, like I said, step,like I said step, step, just
just step into the fear, justembrace it.
It's okay.
No one, most people, won't diefrom being afraid.
It's gonna be okay yeah, yeah,we've.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
I mean, humans have been afraid, you know, for
thousands of years.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
So, hey, it's okay If people have been in the past,
Kind of like a safe thing to dojust go in the cave.
Yeah exactly, I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
That's awesome.
But yeah, no, I appreciateeverything we've talked about
today.
I think it's been helpful forme and hopefully it's helpful
for someone out there who mightbe listening and just needs a
little reassurance that thatnext step isn't as scary as they
might think it is.
But, yeah, before we wrap up,anything else that you want to

(01:10:26):
share or leave with the audiencebefore I close out.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Well, I think I didn't really address it, but
there are some things that willrequire help.
You won't do it on your own.
I'm just going to say that asflat out as I can.
I work in addiction.
I work with process addictions.
So I work with, basically,things that are already systems
inside of us.

(01:10:51):
Like, I work with sex addictiona lot.
So sex is a system inside of us, but it's also, it can be used
in such a way that createscompulsivity and can injure, you
know, can kind of create aproblem in the reward center of
the brain, but most people donot typically overcome that
alone there.
We know that that is based.

(01:11:12):
There's, there's a pattern forthose things, um and there's.
You're not broken because youcan't fix it on your own.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
Um, what's that quote , isn't it?
A addiction thrives inisolation or secret connection.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
Like that whole that whole connection piece we talked
about.
But.
But I just want to say, like alot of people are living in that
, they're living in that promisethemselves.
Let themselves down, feel likecrap, do it again.
Promise yourself and thatpromise themselves.
Let themselves down, feel likecrap, do it again.
Promise themselves, let themsign it.
All you know.
And that cycle, that addictioncycle, is we know how to treat
that.
That is something we know howto treat.

(01:11:47):
So if you're caught in thecycle or any cycle of negative
patterns of behavior, that justhappens to be the one that I do,
but there is hope and there ishealing and there is help.
And don't let it ruin yourrelationships, Don't let it ruin
you, Um, don't let it take anymore time than it has.
When you're ready, Um, find aprofessional that knows how to

(01:12:10):
do it.
And, and the reason why we dothat is we're seeking connection
.
We're just seeking itpathologically through a bottle,
through a porn, through this,through that.
It's like a bird running into awindow.
Though You'll knock yourselfout every time, it's a good
analogy You'll see what you'relooking for.
It looks really great.

(01:12:31):
This is the window.
Then you're're out and you'relike wake up, You're like what
happened.
Oh my gosh, um but.
And it's also not about sex,it's not about drugs, it's not
about any of that.
It's always about emotional.
There's always emotionalundercurrents and needs for
attachment.

(01:12:52):
So so I just want to say thatthe offset, because that is,
that is the struggle of therethat struggle is, those
struggles are so pervasiveculturally, um yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
I've seen people in my own life who have dealt with
addiction, um different types,but um, it's sad to see and you
know it's.
It's tough for them to reachout because I I feel like you
know yeah, exactly, um, but thething that you said that like I
think is the key piece here, islike there is hope, there's hope

(01:13:27):
for a better future, there'shope Like you can overcome this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
Well, and I tell people all the time, I would
have quit my job long ago if Ididn't see people get better,
Like I get the window intohealing um, or it would have
been the worst job on the planet, it would be terrible but, I
get to see.
I get to not just see healing, Iget to see thriving, and that
is a pretty powerful experience.

(01:13:52):
Um, so I just want to, yeah,hope it's, it's.
It's a journey.
It's not going to be easy perse, but being in it isn't easy
either.
So find somebody who can helpyou and move on with your life
and figure out how to manage,figure out how to feel.
How to deal with feelings forwhat they are.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
That's great advice for anyone out there, myself
included.
So, but, yeah, kim, I Iappreciate you really taking
some time to come on the podcasttoday and and share some
thoughts about this, justbecause, like, like I said, I'm
passionate about it and I knowmany other people out there
struggle with with their ownmental health challenges and, um

(01:14:39):
, you know, hopefully we aremaking the move in the right
direction to allow it to be morecommon in terms of, like,
helping out in regularconversations.
But, um, yeah, I mean some ofthese tools and things I think
will help the audience.
So I really appreciate yourtime today.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
You're so welcome.
Thank you for the opportunityand for shedding a light on
something we don't talk aboutenough.
So thank you, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
Yeah, absolutely, and everyone else for listening.
Thank you so much and, asalways, keep getting after it.