March 6, 2024 • 30 mins
Are you feeling stuck on your leadership journey?
Wondering how to turn your challenges into opportunities?
Trying to figure out how to "Brag better?"
Sarah Bierenbaum, CEO and head coach at Nimble Penguin will explore the intricate world of leadership, personal development, and overcoming her STICKY FLOOR.
We cover:
- Learning to speak up for yourself and sell yourself.
- What happens when you FAIL to clearly state your skills.
- How to "choose your own adventure."
- Empowerment Instigation, Achievement Dysmorphia, and Bragging
- Jamie Ellis and coining the term: Achievement Dysmorphia
Talia Kovacs talks about "that was hard and I did it!" (Referenced in the pod!)
SpeakUp Program: https://www.nimblepenguin.com/speak-up
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Are you ready to transform yourchallenges into your greatest
(00:03):
strengths?
Or have you ever wondered howthe top leaders navigate this
type of corporate successwithout losing their
authenticity?
And do you find yourself at acrossroads?
Maybe you're longing for achange, but you're not sure
about the path you should take.
Today, we are going to dive deepinto the world of empowerment of
resilience and the art ofthriving admits adversity.
(00:26):
Sarah beer and mom is a truepioneer in leadership and
personal growth.
As the CEO and head coach atnimble penguin, Sarah has
transcended the roles of a VP invarious companies to spearhead a
movement that champions thecause of high performing leaders
everywhere.
Today, we're going to talk aboutsomething that I honestly had
never heard about before.
(00:46):
And that is achievementdysmorphia.
We're going to talk aboutbragging versus celebrating and
how you can keep doing hardthings, root yourself in
resilience and leadauthentically.
We cover a lot in this shortepisode, so get ready to be
inspired because you arelistening to the podcast from
now to next, the podcast thatempowers women to get seen, get
(01:09):
heard, and get promoted.
I'm your host, Eric Rooney, andI've made it my mission to help
you break free from the stickyfloors.
Those limiting beliefs and toxicbehaviors to bust through the
glass ceiling.
I'm obsessed with all things,growth and abundance.
And I'm here to talk you throughthe tried and true secrets to
get you to level up your careerand your life.
(01:29):
We talk about the hard stuffhere.
Imposter syndrome,perfectionism, fear and burnout.
So pull up a seat.
Pop it in near bed and let'sdive in.
Y'all, we have Sarah Bierenbaumwith us today, and Sarah is what
I like to call a decorativecorporate soldier.
We are talking someone who hashad the VP title with a few
different companies, but she isnow the CEO and head coach at
(01:52):
Nimble Penguin.
So I am super pumped to talk allthings sticky floors with her
today.
Sarah, how are you?
I'm doing well.
Thanks so much for welcoming onhere, Erica.
It's great to Get this chance tochat with you on.
I know I am so pumped in onething that already has me
intrigued is you are all aboutchoosing your own adventure and
(02:17):
you have had quite a fewadventures.
So I'd love to hear a bit aboutwho you are in your back story.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think to lead into mybackstory, it sometimes helps to
talk about where I am now andthen how I got here.
So I, today I work with highperforming leaders and, um, in
my experience, leadership isRemarkably lonely.
(02:39):
Um, I bet you hear that from alot of the folks you talk to.
Um, I, my superpower is that Iam an empowerment instigator.
So I help exceptional leaderstransform uncertainty into
empowered growth as a coach, aguide, an advisor, a consultant,
and a fractional leader.
I meet leaders where they are,and I bring the full breadth of
my experience, including yearsas a professional stage manager.
(03:01):
As a nonprofit arts manager andover a decade leading post sales
operation and operations andstartups, all those tools in my
toolbox.
I bring those on the part andturn together to build a path to
extraordinary results.
So I work with leaders one onone and pairs and teams are
small groups.
Um, and it's tons of fun.
A lot of a lot of joy out ofempowering other folks in case
(03:22):
you can't tell.
And how the sort of shortversion of how I got here.
I mentioned I was a professionalstage manager for years.
Which I loved did that for overa decade and at some point
figured out that I want to dosomething else.
Just the lifestyle of freelance.
And in America, we don't payartists.
Well, so I was ready to maybeearn a little more money and
(03:45):
found my way working in techstartups.
And, um, in that period, I alsoworked in arts management at a
nonprofit for a bit, but I foundthat, um, in the world of tech
startups in particular, there'san incredible amount of talent.
Creativity and collaborationthat is not dissimilar to what I
(04:06):
have experienced working on anew play or a musical.
And I like to joke with mytheater friends that I'm, I'm,
I'm still herding cats.
I'm just working in a differentindustry.
You know, it's sort of this, uh,that the element of being a
stage manager where you are.
The person who is taking all ofthe creative energy outside of
the room and all of the creativeenergy inside of the room and
(04:27):
making sure people are speakingthe same language and talking to
each other, and everyone knowswhat's happening, um, it relates
very easily to then working inpost sales and operations at a
startup where you are looking atall the customers who are
outside of the room, so tospeak, and all the people who
work at the company and makingsure that they can communicate
(04:47):
with and understand each other.
so over time, it's beeninteresting to really see those
consistent threads throughout mycareer, even though I have,
tried many different things and,and yeah, it all comes back to
this, piece in the middle that Ijust get such a joy out of,
empowering others to figure outwhat makes them thrive and work
in life.
(05:07):
But, but, uh, wherever I go,that's what I keep doing.
Here's what I love is that youalready knew what I was going to
ask because I was going to say,Sarah, what the heck is that one
thread that ties together astage manager with a VP of
customer success, but you did itfor me without even having to
ask and empowering others issuch an important.
(05:30):
Purposeful work, right?
Like, we all need people who aregoing to help us hype each other
up and pull out our bestsuperpowers.
But the question I have for youYou make it look so easy.
You you've had all of thesedifferent adventures and you're
doing great things.
What are some of those stickyfloors that showed up for you?
(05:51):
Kind of throughout yourevolution?
Yeah.
I mean, it's, thanks for sayingI make it look so easy.
I mean, there's, I can think ofso many moments, um, especially.
You know, early in my career asa young stage manager, feeling
like I just, you know, wasmaking it up as I went along.
But, I, the one that comes tomind in particular, that's more
(06:11):
recent, as you were mentioningsort of my, VP roles and
companies is that, you know,everyone has that first time.
That you do certain things.
And that first time that I gotto have that VP title next to my
name, which I don't know, I'm aperson who's likes to try to
think that titles don't matter,but they matter.
(06:32):
They matter to us and to theworld.
And so I was super excited tohave that VP title But, you
know, it was also the firsttime.
And so, a lot of impostersyndrome or as my friend, Jamie
likes to say achievementdysmorphia where you are.
Um, you have this giant book ofachievements and somehow you
have lost sight of them andyou're just standing here
(06:54):
thinking, I haven't doneanything that's actually
relevant to this job andeveryone's going to figure out
that I'm a fraud.
and that, I love that you callit a sticky floor because I
think about myself in that role.
And of course there were thingsthat I probably, I did well, or
even extraordinarily well.
I mean, I am good at what I do,but the feeling of.
Being in this role and feelinglike maybe I'm not supposed to
(07:16):
be here.
It is this cat or can be thislike self fulfilling prophecy or
this like cycle where I wassitting there feeling.
I can only describe it as thisclenching feeling this sort of
internal tightness where, um.
And we, we, as humans, I, I findare our best selves when we can
(07:39):
sit more in that feeling ofabundance and, and freedom and,
um, comfort and hear all thethings that I'm great at.
And of course, there's somethings that are going to be a
struggle for me, but I'm goingto lean on my strengths and I'm
going to do great things.
And for me, standing in that.
VP role, I had the celebrationof hooray, I made it to this
(08:00):
role and now I have to actuallydo it and feeling like, um,
every little thing that wentless than perfect just was a
little further chip on thistight little armor that I was
trying to build from feeling souncertain and feeling so
(08:21):
Insecure about whether I shouldhave this role.
And there were any number ofother things happening in my
environment and that role thatdidn't necessarily foster a
sense of self confidence.
And so I don't want to layerthat all on myself.
Of course, you know, ourenvironment is a huge impact,
both the internal environmentand the external, right.
(08:41):
but all that said at the heartof it, when I was feeling
uncertain and insecure about myabilities.
I then just fell on my face alot more and was not my best
self.
I was not showing up as thestrong leader that I am and that
I can be because I, the more Idoubted myself, the less I was
(09:03):
able to show up in the way thatI know how.
And so it, it, it was, Um, andit was like, I couldn't turn it
off.
I couldn't turn off this cyclein my head of, um, that negative
self talk, I guess is the bestway to put it.
Hmm.
You said something earlier andit really caught my interest.
And that was achievementdysmorphia, because that is not
(09:26):
a term I had ever heard before,but you talk about being that
internal resistance to howawesome we are.
And I was like, Oh shit, that'sme.
Because how often.
Yeah.
Do women achieve somethinggreat?
And then we say, Oh, it's not abig deal, right?
Or even if we comment on like,you look nice today.
(09:46):
It's like, Oh, this, I justthrew this on.
I just did this really quick.
Like we always talk ourselvesdown.
Why do you think that is?
I mean, it's a great question.
And I, you know, first that Ihave to credit Jamie Ellis, the
incredible Jamie Ellis withcoming up with the term
achievement dysmorphia.
(10:07):
In terms of, like, why we resistacknowledging and celebrating
our accomplishments, I thinkthat there are a couple things
that come into that.
I think, in all honesty,especially for women growing up
in America, because that's whoI, what I know, because that's
who I am as a woman who grew upin America, there's a huge
(10:30):
amount of Um, social pressureand expectation not to, be too
bold, not to, you know, bragabout yourself, not to,
whatever.
And so I think we are taughtearly on, I think,
unfortunately, this idea that, Aversion of humility that is
instead essentially ignoring allof the amazing things that
(10:50):
you're doing rather than sayingit is you can be humble and also
celebrate yourself.
And so I think it is actually askill that we don't necessarily
teach well, which is how to lookat what you have accomplished
and.
Celebrate it, acknowledge it,and then maybe even take a
(11:11):
moment to say, how are all ofthese accomplishments going to
help me on the next thing?
Like, what, what specificallyare the puzzle pieces that I
have created that are now goingto help me do this next thing?
I think about even having asimple, a coaching conversation
with someone the other day, andthey were facing this challenge
that they felt like, Oh my God,I can't, this is impossible.
(11:34):
And.
We broke it down to what wasthat little thing that was super
hard for them.
and I said, well, tell me aboutanother time in your life when
you have.
dealt with something like this.
And suddenly they had three,four different examples of like
how they, you know, I was like,great.
So like, what did you do then?
And how can we apply this here?
And it's, it seems so simple,but we just really don't teach
(11:55):
that.
And I, and I, at least I don'tremember learning it.
I feel like, uh, other thanlearning it myself through trial
and error.
And, I think that.
there's, and of course, there'sother external factors as well,
like toxic work environmentswhere people are, you know,
pushing negative energy at you,even when you are doing
(12:15):
extraordinary things, whetherit's someone who's envious of
your success or Um, having theirown insecurity issues.
There are all sorts of thingscan happen, but I, but I want to
think about the things that arelike a toxic work environment.
How much can you control that?
You can leave, but what we cancontrol is our own, the own
ecosystem we have of ourselvesand our internal thoughts.
(12:37):
And so when I think aboutlearning how to just actually
celebrate your own wins.
And understand that humility cancoexist with that.
instead of this idea thathumility only exists when we
just pretend we don't do stuff.
Yeah, I think is, is, is key.
Yeah.
Well, and I think one of the bigthings too is.
We were always taught, you know,don't brag, you know, don't be
(12:59):
this whole big, you know,bodacious person who's out there
doing those things.
But it isn't that hard to justchange a little bit of our
language instead of brushing offour accomplishments to just say,
thank you.
I worked really hard at that.
And own that because number one,you know, you worked your ass
off for it.
So just acknowledge it becauseyou're not doing yourself any
favors.
And you're also not doing any ofthe other women who are behind
(13:22):
us any favors easy.
Because if we sit there and say,oh, it's no big deal, you know,
don't worry about it.
Then other people think that itshouldn't be a big deal.
And when they struggle andthey're like, well, Erica didn't
struggle and Sarah didn'tstruggle.
We're not doing anyone anyfavors by not actually showing
up and saying, yes, that was avery hard thing, but I did it.
(13:42):
Damn it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love this phrase that my, myfriend told it, Talia Kovacs
uses, and she actually workswith kids, but she has this
phrase that she encouragesparents to use, which is that
was hard.
And then I did it.
With kids and I love thatbecause she really is teaching
this idea of resilience, youknow, and and being able to
celebrate but it's not a badthing to say to yourself either.
(14:05):
I know that's a that's a reallygreat way to start just showing
up for yourself and teachingthat to everyone around you.
Like, yeah, that was reallyhard, but I did it.
Oh, I love that tip.
So I want to talk about anothersticky floor of yours and that
is all about speaking up, hypingyourself up, highlighting that
expertise, advocating foryourself, all of that wrapped up
(14:28):
in one.
Can you tell me a little bitabout how this showed up for
you?
Yeah.
So, um, when I had had thisfirst VP role and I was like,
all right, I'm a VP, I've doneit.
And, and, you know, once I thinkas much as that first role I
struggled with, as you'resaying, like imposter syndrome,
achievement dysmorphia, allthose things, I also realized,
(14:48):
right.
Everyone in these roles is justa human like me.
And we're all at a certain levelof figuring things out as we go.
It felt less.
scary.
So I thought, okay, I'm readyfor the next thing.
And I was interviewing for,roles.
But I was interviewing for thesecompanies, you know, head of
customer success for early stageor VP of customer success or
whatever.
And I felt like these are rolesI could clearly do.
(15:11):
And I, at least in some cases,which was really not
progressing.
And one in particular.
I think about this role.
and I honestly can't rememberthe company.
Now.
I just remember the internalrecruiter because she was so
kind and helpful.
but, you know, I was notprogressing in these jobs.
I was not getting jobinterviews.
I was not getting feedbackbecause you almost never do.
So I didn't really know.
(15:31):
They were just like, we justwent with someone who was a
better fit.
And I'm like that.
Great.
So I have no idea.
So at that point, we get to theend of the process.
I don't progress to whateverfinal round.
And this recruiter agreed togive me feedback and she hopped
on a call and she said, well,you know, the truth is this role
is for a very technical leaderwho, really has deep
implementation and projectmanagement experience.
(15:52):
And I thought, and I said,really, well, that's.
But that's me.
That's literally the essence ofmy career.
Like, how did you, and she wasgenuinely shocked, she said, Oh,
I didn't realize that you hadthis kind of experience.
I'm sorry, we didn't talk aboutthis.
And I sort of went, Okay, thisis clearly my failing that we've
had several interviews at thispoint.
And no one knows that my entirecareer is built on all of this
(16:16):
work.
And so, That was a huge lightbulb moment for me that, you
know, sometimes we can be ourown sticky floor because I
literally just wasn't talkingabout, and I think at the time I
thought, um, my resume speaksfor itself.
If you can see what I've doneand I talk about project
management and implementation,then you know, those things, and
I just need to now.
(16:37):
interview and connect with thisperson and feel like we could
work together well and, and thatwill, that will get me the job.
You know, I'm a kind,interesting, engaging human and
my experience speaks for itself.
which was clearly wrong.
and, but it was an importantlesson.
And in the end, I, of course,since then have had other jobs
and I founded my own company andbeen a consultant and all that.
(17:00):
And so.
It all, it was, it worked out,but, what I really learned is
that I had to figure out how totalk about myself and my
achievements and my expertise toother people in ways that felt
true to me, so I didn't soundlike a robot, and were
interesting enough that theydidn't feel like I was just
(17:20):
reading my resume.
And that were, um, thattranslated to them thinking, Oh,
I want to actually work withthis person because they have
these skills and this expertise.
so through like a lot of trialand error, I figured out better
ways to talk about myself, but,that was a huge lesson was to
realize, Oh, I just, this thingthat seems so obvious, literally
no one's going to know unless Isay it.
(17:42):
and it's, again, sounds.
I don't know.
It sounds obvious, right?
You don't talk about it, no onewill know.
But somehow, it didn't occur tome.
And I've certainly talked toplenty of other people who have
had similar experiences whereyou think that your, work would
speak for yourself.
You maybe feel awkward oruncomfortable promoting
yourself, right?
Or I think that as you weresaying earlier, talking about
(18:05):
yourself is like boastful orself involved and like, who does
that?
No.
Absolutely.
Um, yeah.
Well, and here's the real deal,right?
Like this is a huge problem forwomen across the board because
they sit back and we say like,Oh, they know how much work I'm
doing.
I'll get the promotion orthey'll give me the promotion or
the title.
(18:26):
When I deserve it and like, theyknow better than I do.
I don't need to talk about allof the things that I'm doing.
But here's the deal.
You do have to talk about allthe things that you're doing
because your leader or yourmanager, whoever, they truly
don't know.
Even if you have the bestmanager, they don't know all the
amazing things you're doing.
So you have to advocate foryourself by actually talking
(18:49):
about those things.
Do you have a Recipe, a roadmap,a tip, whatever, in taking that
first step to advocate foryourself?
that's a great question.
there are so many things tothink about there.
I think the, honestly, thebiggest one is, I find is when
people have a long list ofaccomplishments or they've got a
(19:09):
whole bunch of information theywant to share.
It's really easy to get lost inthe weeds of it.
Someone, you know, someone says,Oh, even just a simple example,
like you hop on an interview andsomeone says, Oh, tell me about
yourself and how you got here.
And they're like, well, youknow, I was, my first job was
like scoop an ice cream atHaagen Dazs and you get like, so
like long does that matter?
(19:30):
Right, exactly.
And so, you know, I think.
about, you know, any executiveor leader who's been working
long enough, you know how tomanage up, right?
We know that the people aboveus, whatever that means at your
company, are busy.
And I always say that we have toassume that.
If you're sending an email ortelling someone something that
(19:52):
assume that you get maybe one ortwo sentences and then they've
stopped listening.
And so it's key to figure out.
It's like when you write a paperin college or high school or
whatever that I don't know aboutyou, but I used to do this thing
where I would write my papersand I would like save some like
a big.
Interesting reveal for like thelast paragraph, my teacher be
(20:12):
like, Sarah, like, this is, canyou just put your thesis
statement and the first pair?
Like, why are you saving all ofthis to the end?
And it is, it's the same thingin business, right?
That we like want to build tosomething.
And that's fine.
If you're telling a story, but.
If you're in the workenvironment, if you're
interviewing, if you're talkingabout yourself, if you're trying
to convey some key piece ofinformation, if you only had one
(20:35):
sentence to say, the mostimportant thing, what would you
say?
Say that, and then of course youcan add more details or 17
charts of all the researchyou've done or whatever, if your
CEO or whoever has time forthat, but chances are they
don't, they just want to know.
So, is it, is this taken care ofor not?
And like, what is the mostimportant thing I need to know
about this?
The, the example I always givepeople is when I was a stage
(20:57):
manager, so the stage manager isusually sitting in the theater.
You've got your headset on,you've got a table there,
everyone is working on the showas in the same space.
There's a whole lot of crazyshit happening and you're
rehearsing, let's say atransition from one scene to
another, there's moving scenery,there's moving parts, and you
have an assistant stage managerbackstage.
On headset with you and you getto the transition and it's like
(21:19):
people go off stage and it'slike a giant train wreck.
Everything falls apart and youstop and as the person sitting
out in the theater, I can seethe train wreck.
I'm running this whole ship andI have to say, my assistant,
what happened?
What I want to hear is someversion of, let's say.
The cart ran off the stage andgot into some trouble at the
traffic jam.
We're going to figure it out.
(21:39):
Give me five minutes and we canrun it again.
Amazing.
Right?
It's one sentence, twosentences, maybe.
And I will sit, I will turn toall the people in the theater
and say, Hey guys, we're goingto work through this again.
Here's what we're doing.
The not helpful version as well.
You know, the car came off andthen they tried to turn left,
but they really should haveturned right.
And like, these people werechanging costumes over here and
they got run into and like allof that information did impact
(22:02):
the train wreck, but I don'tcare.
And maybe later in a debrief, myassistant and I can have a long
chat about all the things thatwent wrong but in that moment, I
don't care.
I just need to know we need fiveminutes.
And so I feel like that is a, asa metaphor for any kind of
communication, especiallycommunicating up where it's what
(22:24):
is, if you had like onesentence, what would you say to
make sure that the mostimportant point gets across and
then from there, if they wantmore of your amazing details,
great, have those ready, diginto challenges or the charts or
the analytics that offerbackground to how you got to
this key point, but, you If theyonly hear your first sentence,
(22:44):
at least they know what's theamazing thing you accomplished
and, how much of that did you doyourself versus with your team,
What's so important about thattoo, is.
Exactly what you said.
People stop listening,especially if you're rambling on
and I don't know if it's fromnervousness or whatever has you
putting in too many words.
(23:05):
That clear, concise language isso important.
And it, it just made me thinkabout executive influence, which
is often a piece of feedbackthat women get where they're
like, you need to work on yourpresence.
You need to work on yourexecutive influence.
And everybody's like, but how?
Clear, concise language, right?
Getting to your point from thebat and then you can fill it in
on the back end, I think, is socritical.
(23:27):
One thing, too, when it comes toowning your accomplishments,
What it makes me think about isthis one time when someone asked
me, how do you do it all, Erica,right?
Number one, the key answer is Idon't do it all, but I also
recognize that I do a lot,right?
I do podcasting.
(23:48):
I have a full time job.
I'm a mom.
I like to work out.
Like, there's all these thingsthat I do.
And I used to be that woman thatwould just brush it off and be
like, no, no, no, it's not a bigdeal.
Or it doesn't take that muchtime.
And I was really Not owning howmuch work I was doing, which was
minimizing everything that I wasdoing.
(24:09):
So I started to switch thatlanguage, and I actually started
telling people, I'm like aproductivity queen, right?
Or a productivity expert.
I've really learned how tomaximize my time.
And I actually had somebody say,Oh, she likes to brag because I
said that, because I calledmyself a productivity expert.
(24:29):
And I thought about that.
And that bugged me for a littlebit, because I was like, well, I
guess I shouldn't say that.
Or, you know, maybe it comes offwrong, but then the truth of it
was, I don't know that theywould say that about a man.
And so I'm going to continueowning that.
I am a damn productivity expert,a productivity queen, and I am
doing probably a lot more thanmost people.
the reason I share this is Iwant to share the message with
(24:49):
other women that it's.
It's going to be hard for othersto accept that.
And usually that is a directresult of how they feel about
themselves, or what they'redoing or not doing, versus you.
So I think that's a big,important thing to remember,
that usually it says more aboutthe other person.
Absolutely.
And I think also I want to sortof couch this in the context
(25:11):
that like, I am a white woman ofa certain level of privilege and
I can't, I can't speak to thelived experience of, for
example, a black woman who hasany number of other barriers
against up against speaking upfor herself in the workplace and
how people react to that.
And I think, I hope that, one ofthe things that.
(25:32):
We can do as, all women, as westart to speak up in different
ways is create.
spaces for, people who are evenfurther marginalized to be able
to speak up and feel safe doingso as well.
and that's easier said thandone, of course.
And just because I, as a whitewoman, I'm getting better at
speaking up for myself doesn'tmagically mean that that space
(25:54):
will somehow be safer for anAsian woman or a black woman or
any number of things.
But I do think that, any of thework that we do to create
Conversations around, well,okay, but like this response
that you think that I like tobrag, because I talk about
myself that way, like, what'sthat about?
And, you know, how do we startshifting that perspective?
(26:16):
And how do we start just askingquestions?
Like, oh, that's so interestingthat you, hear me say that and
think that I like to brag.
What does bragging mean to you?
You know, like, what does thatword mean to you?
Tell me more.
Okay, Sarah, all of that isfantastic.
So tell me about your newprogram speak up because this
program really plays directlyinto this whole thing that we've
(26:38):
been talking about impostersyndrome and also advocating for
yourself.
So tell me all about that.
Sure, I'd love to.
It's a four month acceleratorfor leaders who are ready to get
promoted or hired andrecognized.
The framework is you are anexceptional leader, and it is
time to hype yourself.
so many folks I talked to arethey know they're good at what
(27:00):
they do.
They deliver value every day.
Colleagues see them as a highachiever and they are hungry for
that next thing, a promotion,the next job, or they just want
more recognition at work andsomething isn't clicking.
And so, um, whether it's likethey deliver amazing results and
senior leadership, isn't.
Noticing or they land initialinterviews, but they're not
progressing to the next round.
(27:21):
and so it's, it all is rooted inwhat we were just talking about.
This idea of no one willrecognize your value if you
don't promote yourself.
and so speak up is.
Built around that.
So, um, so I love that.
Well, what we will do is I willlink that in the show notes for
anyone who's interested in thespeak up program or anyone who
might struggle with reallyadvocating for yourself.
(27:44):
And.
Promoting yourself andessentially speaking up for
yourself, but Sarah, what I loveto do is I always in the podcast
on this note is what is that onepiece of advice you would give
the Sarah who was a stagemanager turned VP, but the Sarah
who wasn't getting that nextjob.
What is that one piece of adviceyou would tell her?
(28:05):
Oh, that's a great question.
Um, I think that, it comes backto, you are amazing at what you
do and If you're, anytime you'refeeling stuck or maybe like
you're not progressing in theway that you want, sometimes
it's worth just taking a momentto look in the mirror, whatever
that means to you, whether it'sjournaling or taking time to go
(28:28):
back and look at your career andActually document some of your
accomplishments or, talking tofriends who have seen you work
and can reflect that back toyou, but really find a version,
a way to look at the mirror andsee what you've done to get
where you are today so that youcan build on that to get to the
next thing.
I love it.
And that's a great first step,right?
(28:49):
Document, document what you'vealready freaking done already,
you know?
Oh, well, Sarah, thank you somuch for being here.
This conversation was soimportant.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Erica.
It's been a real pleasure totalk to you.
Oh, that was such a good one.
Today.
I am obsessed with talking aboutbragging and achievement
(29:09):
dysmorphia now.
C'est, but thank you for tuninginto this conversation with
Sarah, her journey fromcorporate soldier to empowerment
instigator.
It really shows us that the pathto leadership isn't about
climbing the ladder.
It's about building your ownladder one, empowering step at a
(29:30):
time.
Now if today's episode resonatedwith you, I would be so
incredibly grateful.
If you would take a moment torate, review and subscribe to
our podcast, your feedback, ithelps me grow.
It also enables me to bring moreinspiring stories like Sarah's
directly to you.
So please make sure hit thatlittle five-star button and
(29:52):
let's keep this rolling.
One thing I want to remind youof though, before you leave me,
is stop putting ceilings on whatis possible and start smashing
through them.
Thanks again.
And I'll see you next time.
Are you ready to transform yourchallenges into your greatest
(00:03):
strengths?
Or have you ever wondered howthe top leaders navigate this
type of corporate successwithout losing their
authenticity?
And do you find yourself at acrossroads?
Maybe you're longing for achange, but you're not sure
about the path you should take.
Today, we are going to dive deepinto the world of empowerment of
resilience and the art ofthriving admits adversity.
(00:26):
Sarah beer and mom is a truepioneer in leadership and
personal growth.
As the CEO and head coach atnimble penguin, Sarah has
transcended the roles of a VP invarious companies to spearhead a
movement that champions thecause of high performing leaders
everywhere.
Today, we're going to talk aboutsomething that I honestly had
never heard about before.
(00:46):
And that is achievementdysmorphia.
We're going to talk aboutbragging versus celebrating and
how you can keep doing hardthings, root yourself in
resilience and leadauthentically.
We cover a lot in this shortepisode, so get ready to be
inspired because you arelistening to the podcast from
now to next, the podcast thatempowers women to get seen, get
(01:09):
heard, and get promoted.
I'm your host, Eric Rooney, andI've made it my mission to help
you break free from the stickyfloors.
Those limiting beliefs and toxicbehaviors to bust through the
glass ceiling.
I'm obsessed with all things,growth and abundance.
And I'm here to talk you throughthe tried and true secrets to
get you to level up your careerand your life.
(01:29):
We talk about the hard stuffhere.
Imposter syndrome,perfectionism, fear and burnout.
So pull up a seat.
Pop it in near bed and let'sdive in.
Y'all, we have Sarah Bierenbaumwith us today, and Sarah is what
I like to call a decorativecorporate soldier.
We are talking someone who hashad the VP title with a few
different companies, but she isnow the CEO and head coach at
(01:52):
Nimble Penguin.
So I am super pumped to talk allthings sticky floors with her
today.
Sarah, how are you?
I'm doing well.
Thanks so much for welcoming onhere, Erica.
It's great to Get this chance tochat with you on.
I know I am so pumped in onething that already has me
intrigued is you are all aboutchoosing your own adventure and
(02:17):
you have had quite a fewadventures.
So I'd love to hear a bit aboutwho you are in your back story.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think to lead into mybackstory, it sometimes helps to
talk about where I am now andthen how I got here.
So I, today I work with highperforming leaders and, um, in
my experience, leadership isRemarkably lonely.
(02:39):
Um, I bet you hear that from alot of the folks you talk to.
Um, I, my superpower is that Iam an empowerment instigator.
So I help exceptional leaderstransform uncertainty into
empowered growth as a coach, aguide, an advisor, a consultant,
and a fractional leader.
I meet leaders where they are,and I bring the full breadth of
my experience, including yearsas a professional stage manager.
(03:01):
As a nonprofit arts manager andover a decade leading post sales
operation and operations andstartups, all those tools in my
toolbox.
I bring those on the part andturn together to build a path to
extraordinary results.
So I work with leaders one onone and pairs and teams are
small groups.
Um, and it's tons of fun.
A lot of a lot of joy out ofempowering other folks in case
(03:22):
you can't tell.
And how the sort of shortversion of how I got here.
I mentioned I was a professionalstage manager for years.
Which I loved did that for overa decade and at some point
figured out that I want to dosomething else.
Just the lifestyle of freelance.
And in America, we don't payartists.
Well, so I was ready to maybeearn a little more money and
(03:45):
found my way working in techstartups.
And, um, in that period, I alsoworked in arts management at a
nonprofit for a bit, but I foundthat, um, in the world of tech
startups in particular, there'san incredible amount of talent.
Creativity and collaborationthat is not dissimilar to what I
(04:06):
have experienced working on anew play or a musical.
And I like to joke with mytheater friends that I'm, I'm,
I'm still herding cats.
I'm just working in a differentindustry.
You know, it's sort of this, uh,that the element of being a
stage manager where you are.
The person who is taking all ofthe creative energy outside of
the room and all of the creativeenergy inside of the room and
(04:27):
making sure people are speakingthe same language and talking to
each other, and everyone knowswhat's happening, um, it relates
very easily to then working inpost sales and operations at a
startup where you are looking atall the customers who are
outside of the room, so tospeak, and all the people who
work at the company and makingsure that they can communicate
(04:47):
with and understand each other.
so over time, it's beeninteresting to really see those
consistent threads throughout mycareer, even though I have,
tried many different things and,and yeah, it all comes back to
this, piece in the middle that Ijust get such a joy out of,
empowering others to figure outwhat makes them thrive and work
in life.
(05:07):
But, but, uh, wherever I go,that's what I keep doing.
Here's what I love is that youalready knew what I was going to
ask because I was going to say,Sarah, what the heck is that one
thread that ties together astage manager with a VP of
customer success, but you did itfor me without even having to
ask and empowering others issuch an important.
(05:30):
Purposeful work, right?
Like, we all need people who aregoing to help us hype each other
up and pull out our bestsuperpowers.
But the question I have for youYou make it look so easy.
You you've had all of thesedifferent adventures and you're
doing great things.
What are some of those stickyfloors that showed up for you?
(05:51):
Kind of throughout yourevolution?
Yeah.
I mean, it's, thanks for sayingI make it look so easy.
I mean, there's, I can think ofso many moments, um, especially.
You know, early in my career asa young stage manager, feeling
like I just, you know, wasmaking it up as I went along.
But, I, the one that comes tomind in particular, that's more
(06:11):
recent, as you were mentioningsort of my, VP roles and
companies is that, you know,everyone has that first time.
That you do certain things.
And that first time that I gotto have that VP title next to my
name, which I don't know, I'm aperson who's likes to try to
think that titles don't matter,but they matter.
(06:32):
They matter to us and to theworld.
And so I was super excited tohave that VP title But, you
know, it was also the firsttime.
And so, a lot of impostersyndrome or as my friend, Jamie
likes to say achievementdysmorphia where you are.
Um, you have this giant book ofachievements and somehow you
have lost sight of them andyou're just standing here
(06:54):
thinking, I haven't doneanything that's actually
relevant to this job andeveryone's going to figure out
that I'm a fraud.
and that, I love that you callit a sticky floor because I
think about myself in that role.
And of course there were thingsthat I probably, I did well, or
even extraordinarily well.
I mean, I am good at what I do,but the feeling of.
Being in this role and feelinglike maybe I'm not supposed to
(07:16):
be here.
It is this cat or can be thislike self fulfilling prophecy or
this like cycle where I wassitting there feeling.
I can only describe it as thisclenching feeling this sort of
internal tightness where, um.
And we, we, as humans, I, I findare our best selves when we can
(07:39):
sit more in that feeling ofabundance and, and freedom and,
um, comfort and hear all thethings that I'm great at.
And of course, there's somethings that are going to be a
struggle for me, but I'm goingto lean on my strengths and I'm
going to do great things.
And for me, standing in that.
VP role, I had the celebrationof hooray, I made it to this
(08:00):
role and now I have to actuallydo it and feeling like, um,
every little thing that wentless than perfect just was a
little further chip on thistight little armor that I was
trying to build from feeling souncertain and feeling so
(08:21):
Insecure about whether I shouldhave this role.
And there were any number ofother things happening in my
environment and that role thatdidn't necessarily foster a
sense of self confidence.
And so I don't want to layerthat all on myself.
Of course, you know, ourenvironment is a huge impact,
both the internal environmentand the external, right.
(08:41):
but all that said at the heartof it, when I was feeling
uncertain and insecure about myabilities.
I then just fell on my face alot more and was not my best
self.
I was not showing up as thestrong leader that I am and that
I can be because I, the more Idoubted myself, the less I was
(09:03):
able to show up in the way thatI know how.
And so it, it, it was, Um, andit was like, I couldn't turn it
off.
I couldn't turn off this cyclein my head of, um, that negative
self talk, I guess is the bestway to put it.
Hmm.
You said something earlier andit really caught my interest.
And that was achievementdysmorphia, because that is not
(09:26):
a term I had ever heard before,but you talk about being that
internal resistance to howawesome we are.
And I was like, Oh shit, that'sme.
Because how often.
Yeah.
Do women achieve somethinggreat?
And then we say, Oh, it's not abig deal, right?
Or even if we comment on like,you look nice today.
(09:46):
It's like, Oh, this, I justthrew this on.
I just did this really quick.
Like we always talk ourselvesdown.
Why do you think that is?
I mean, it's a great question.
And I, you know, first that Ihave to credit Jamie Ellis, the
incredible Jamie Ellis withcoming up with the term
achievement dysmorphia.
(10:07):
In terms of, like, why we resistacknowledging and celebrating
our accomplishments, I thinkthat there are a couple things
that come into that.
I think, in all honesty,especially for women growing up
in America, because that's whoI, what I know, because that's
who I am as a woman who grew upin America, there's a huge
(10:30):
amount of Um, social pressureand expectation not to, be too
bold, not to, you know, bragabout yourself, not to,
whatever.
And so I think we are taughtearly on, I think,
unfortunately, this idea that, Aversion of humility that is
instead essentially ignoring allof the amazing things that
(10:50):
you're doing rather than sayingit is you can be humble and also
celebrate yourself.
And so I think it is actually askill that we don't necessarily
teach well, which is how to lookat what you have accomplished
and.
Celebrate it, acknowledge it,and then maybe even take a
(11:11):
moment to say, how are all ofthese accomplishments going to
help me on the next thing?
Like, what, what specificallyare the puzzle pieces that I
have created that are now goingto help me do this next thing?
I think about even having asimple, a coaching conversation
with someone the other day, andthey were facing this challenge
that they felt like, Oh my God,I can't, this is impossible.
(11:34):
And.
We broke it down to what wasthat little thing that was super
hard for them.
and I said, well, tell me aboutanother time in your life when
you have.
dealt with something like this.
And suddenly they had three,four different examples of like
how they, you know, I was like,great.
So like, what did you do then?
And how can we apply this here?
And it's, it seems so simple,but we just really don't teach
(11:55):
that.
And I, and I, at least I don'tremember learning it.
I feel like, uh, other thanlearning it myself through trial
and error.
And, I think that.
there's, and of course, there'sother external factors as well,
like toxic work environmentswhere people are, you know,
pushing negative energy at you,even when you are doing
(12:15):
extraordinary things, whetherit's someone who's envious of
your success or Um, having theirown insecurity issues.
There are all sorts of thingscan happen, but I, but I want to
think about the things that arelike a toxic work environment.
How much can you control that?
You can leave, but what we cancontrol is our own, the own
ecosystem we have of ourselvesand our internal thoughts.
(12:37):
And so when I think aboutlearning how to just actually
celebrate your own wins.
And understand that humility cancoexist with that.
instead of this idea thathumility only exists when we
just pretend we don't do stuff.
Yeah, I think is, is, is key.
Yeah.
Well, and I think one of the bigthings too is.
We were always taught, you know,don't brag, you know, don't be
(12:59):
this whole big, you know,bodacious person who's out there
doing those things.
But it isn't that hard to justchange a little bit of our
language instead of brushing offour accomplishments to just say,
thank you.
I worked really hard at that.
And own that because number one,you know, you worked your ass
off for it.
So just acknowledge it becauseyou're not doing yourself any
favors.
And you're also not doing any ofthe other women who are behind
(13:22):
us any favors easy.
Because if we sit there and say,oh, it's no big deal, you know,
don't worry about it.
Then other people think that itshouldn't be a big deal.
And when they struggle andthey're like, well, Erica didn't
struggle and Sarah didn'tstruggle.
We're not doing anyone anyfavors by not actually showing
up and saying, yes, that was avery hard thing, but I did it.
(13:42):
Damn it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love this phrase that my, myfriend told it, Talia Kovacs
uses, and she actually workswith kids, but she has this
phrase that she encouragesparents to use, which is that
was hard.
And then I did it.
With kids and I love thatbecause she really is teaching
this idea of resilience, youknow, and and being able to
celebrate but it's not a badthing to say to yourself either.
(14:05):
I know that's a that's a reallygreat way to start just showing
up for yourself and teachingthat to everyone around you.
Like, yeah, that was reallyhard, but I did it.
Oh, I love that tip.
So I want to talk about anothersticky floor of yours and that
is all about speaking up, hypingyourself up, highlighting that
expertise, advocating foryourself, all of that wrapped up
(14:28):
in one.
Can you tell me a little bitabout how this showed up for
you?
Yeah.
So, um, when I had had thisfirst VP role and I was like,
all right, I'm a VP, I've doneit.
And, and, you know, once I thinkas much as that first role I
struggled with, as you'resaying, like imposter syndrome,
achievement dysmorphia, allthose things, I also realized,
(14:48):
right.
Everyone in these roles is justa human like me.
And we're all at a certain levelof figuring things out as we go.
It felt less.
scary.
So I thought, okay, I'm readyfor the next thing.
And I was interviewing for,roles.
But I was interviewing for thesecompanies, you know, head of
customer success for early stageor VP of customer success or
whatever.
And I felt like these are rolesI could clearly do.
(15:11):
And I, at least in some cases,which was really not
progressing.
And one in particular.
I think about this role.
and I honestly can't rememberthe company.
Now.
I just remember the internalrecruiter because she was so
kind and helpful.
but, you know, I was notprogressing in these jobs.
I was not getting jobinterviews.
I was not getting feedbackbecause you almost never do.
So I didn't really know.
(15:31):
They were just like, we justwent with someone who was a
better fit.
And I'm like that.
Great.
So I have no idea.
So at that point, we get to theend of the process.
I don't progress to whateverfinal round.
And this recruiter agreed togive me feedback and she hopped
on a call and she said, well,you know, the truth is this role
is for a very technical leaderwho, really has deep
implementation and projectmanagement experience.
(15:52):
And I thought, and I said,really, well, that's.
But that's me.
That's literally the essence ofmy career.
Like, how did you, and she wasgenuinely shocked, she said, Oh,
I didn't realize that you hadthis kind of experience.
I'm sorry, we didn't talk aboutthis.
And I sort of went, Okay, thisis clearly my failing that we've
had several interviews at thispoint.
And no one knows that my entirecareer is built on all of this
(16:16):
work.
And so, That was a huge lightbulb moment for me that, you
know, sometimes we can be ourown sticky floor because I
literally just wasn't talkingabout, and I think at the time I
thought, um, my resume speaksfor itself.
If you can see what I've doneand I talk about project
management and implementation,then you know, those things, and
I just need to now.
(16:37):
interview and connect with thisperson and feel like we could
work together well and, and thatwill, that will get me the job.
You know, I'm a kind,interesting, engaging human and
my experience speaks for itself.
which was clearly wrong.
and, but it was an importantlesson.
And in the end, I, of course,since then have had other jobs
and I founded my own company andbeen a consultant and all that.
(17:00):
And so.
It all, it was, it worked out,but, what I really learned is
that I had to figure out how totalk about myself and my
achievements and my expertise toother people in ways that felt
true to me, so I didn't soundlike a robot, and were
interesting enough that theydidn't feel like I was just
(17:20):
reading my resume.
And that were, um, thattranslated to them thinking, Oh,
I want to actually work withthis person because they have
these skills and this expertise.
so through like a lot of trialand error, I figured out better
ways to talk about myself, but,that was a huge lesson was to
realize, Oh, I just, this thingthat seems so obvious, literally
no one's going to know unless Isay it.
(17:42):
and it's, again, sounds.
I don't know.
It sounds obvious, right?
You don't talk about it, no onewill know.
But somehow, it didn't occur tome.
And I've certainly talked toplenty of other people who have
had similar experiences whereyou think that your, work would
speak for yourself.
You maybe feel awkward oruncomfortable promoting
yourself, right?
Or I think that as you weresaying earlier, talking about
(18:05):
yourself is like boastful orself involved and like, who does
that?
No.
Absolutely.
Um, yeah.
Well, and here's the real deal,right?
Like this is a huge problem forwomen across the board because
they sit back and we say like,Oh, they know how much work I'm
doing.
I'll get the promotion orthey'll give me the promotion or
the title.
(18:26):
When I deserve it and like, theyknow better than I do.
I don't need to talk about allof the things that I'm doing.
But here's the deal.
You do have to talk about allthe things that you're doing
because your leader or yourmanager, whoever, they truly
don't know.
Even if you have the bestmanager, they don't know all the
amazing things you're doing.
So you have to advocate foryourself by actually talking
(18:49):
about those things.
Do you have a Recipe, a roadmap,a tip, whatever, in taking that
first step to advocate foryourself?
that's a great question.
there are so many things tothink about there.
I think the, honestly, thebiggest one is, I find is when
people have a long list ofaccomplishments or they've got a
(19:09):
whole bunch of information theywant to share.
It's really easy to get lost inthe weeds of it.
Someone, you know, someone says,Oh, even just a simple example,
like you hop on an interview andsomeone says, Oh, tell me about
yourself and how you got here.
And they're like, well, youknow, I was, my first job was
like scoop an ice cream atHaagen Dazs and you get like, so
like long does that matter?
(19:30):
Right, exactly.
And so, you know, I think.
about, you know, any executiveor leader who's been working
long enough, you know how tomanage up, right?
We know that the people aboveus, whatever that means at your
company, are busy.
And I always say that we have toassume that.
If you're sending an email ortelling someone something that
(19:52):
assume that you get maybe one ortwo sentences and then they've
stopped listening.
And so it's key to figure out.
It's like when you write a paperin college or high school or
whatever that I don't know aboutyou, but I used to do this thing
where I would write my papersand I would like save some like
a big.
Interesting reveal for like thelast paragraph, my teacher be
(20:12):
like, Sarah, like, this is, canyou just put your thesis
statement and the first pair?
Like, why are you saving all ofthis to the end?
And it is, it's the same thingin business, right?
That we like want to build tosomething.
And that's fine.
If you're telling a story, but.
If you're in the workenvironment, if you're
interviewing, if you're talkingabout yourself, if you're trying
to convey some key piece ofinformation, if you only had one
(20:35):
sentence to say, the mostimportant thing, what would you
say?
Say that, and then of course youcan add more details or 17
charts of all the researchyou've done or whatever, if your
CEO or whoever has time forthat, but chances are they
don't, they just want to know.
So, is it, is this taken care ofor not?
And like, what is the mostimportant thing I need to know
about this?
The, the example I always givepeople is when I was a stage
(20:57):
manager, so the stage manager isusually sitting in the theater.
You've got your headset on,you've got a table there,
everyone is working on the showas in the same space.
There's a whole lot of crazyshit happening and you're
rehearsing, let's say atransition from one scene to
another, there's moving scenery,there's moving parts, and you
have an assistant stage managerbackstage.
On headset with you and you getto the transition and it's like
(21:19):
people go off stage and it'slike a giant train wreck.
Everything falls apart and youstop and as the person sitting
out in the theater, I can seethe train wreck.
I'm running this whole ship andI have to say, my assistant,
what happened?
What I want to hear is someversion of, let's say.
The cart ran off the stage andgot into some trouble at the
traffic jam.
We're going to figure it out.
(21:39):
Give me five minutes and we canrun it again.
Amazing.
Right?
It's one sentence, twosentences, maybe.
And I will sit, I will turn toall the people in the theater
and say, Hey guys, we're goingto work through this again.
Here's what we're doing.
The not helpful version as well.
You know, the car came off andthen they tried to turn left,
but they really should haveturned right.
And like, these people werechanging costumes over here and
they got run into and like allof that information did impact
(22:02):
the train wreck, but I don'tcare.
And maybe later in a debrief, myassistant and I can have a long
chat about all the things thatwent wrong but in that moment, I
don't care.
I just need to know we need fiveminutes.
And so I feel like that is a, asa metaphor for any kind of
communication, especiallycommunicating up where it's what
(22:24):
is, if you had like onesentence, what would you say to
make sure that the mostimportant point gets across and
then from there, if they wantmore of your amazing details,
great, have those ready, diginto challenges or the charts or
the analytics that offerbackground to how you got to
this key point, but, you If theyonly hear your first sentence,
(22:44):
at least they know what's theamazing thing you accomplished
and, how much of that did you doyourself versus with your team,
What's so important about thattoo, is.
Exactly what you said.
People stop listening,especially if you're rambling on
and I don't know if it's fromnervousness or whatever has you
putting in too many words.
(23:05):
That clear, concise language isso important.
And it, it just made me thinkabout executive influence, which
is often a piece of feedbackthat women get where they're
like, you need to work on yourpresence.
You need to work on yourexecutive influence.
And everybody's like, but how?
Clear, concise language, right?
Getting to your point from thebat and then you can fill it in
on the back end, I think, is socritical.
(23:27):
One thing, too, when it comes toowning your accomplishments,
What it makes me think about isthis one time when someone asked
me, how do you do it all, Erica,right?
Number one, the key answer is Idon't do it all, but I also
recognize that I do a lot,right?
I do podcasting.
(23:48):
I have a full time job.
I'm a mom.
I like to work out.
Like, there's all these thingsthat I do.
And I used to be that woman thatwould just brush it off and be
like, no, no, no, it's not a bigdeal.
Or it doesn't take that muchtime.
And I was really Not owning howmuch work I was doing, which was
minimizing everything that I wasdoing.
(24:09):
So I started to switch thatlanguage, and I actually started
telling people, I'm like aproductivity queen, right?
Or a productivity expert.
I've really learned how tomaximize my time.
And I actually had somebody say,Oh, she likes to brag because I
said that, because I calledmyself a productivity expert.
(24:29):
And I thought about that.
And that bugged me for a littlebit, because I was like, well, I
guess I shouldn't say that.
Or, you know, maybe it comes offwrong, but then the truth of it
was, I don't know that theywould say that about a man.
And so I'm going to continueowning that.
I am a damn productivity expert,a productivity queen, and I am
doing probably a lot more thanmost people.
the reason I share this is Iwant to share the message with
(24:49):
other women that it's.
It's going to be hard for othersto accept that.
And usually that is a directresult of how they feel about
themselves, or what they'redoing or not doing, versus you.
So I think that's a big,important thing to remember,
that usually it says more aboutthe other person.
Absolutely.
And I think also I want to sortof couch this in the context
(25:11):
that like, I am a white woman ofa certain level of privilege and
I can't, I can't speak to thelived experience of, for
example, a black woman who hasany number of other barriers
against up against speaking upfor herself in the workplace and
how people react to that.
And I think, I hope that, one ofthe things that.
(25:32):
We can do as, all women, as westart to speak up in different
ways is create.
spaces for, people who are evenfurther marginalized to be able
to speak up and feel safe doingso as well.
and that's easier said thandone, of course.
And just because I, as a whitewoman, I'm getting better at
speaking up for myself doesn'tmagically mean that that space
(25:54):
will somehow be safer for anAsian woman or a black woman or
any number of things.
But I do think that, any of thework that we do to create
Conversations around, well,okay, but like this response
that you think that I like tobrag, because I talk about
myself that way, like, what'sthat about?
And, you know, how do we startshifting that perspective?
(26:16):
And how do we start just askingquestions?
Like, oh, that's so interestingthat you, hear me say that and
think that I like to brag.
What does bragging mean to you?
You know, like, what does thatword mean to you?
Tell me more.
Okay, Sarah, all of that isfantastic.
So tell me about your newprogram speak up because this
program really plays directlyinto this whole thing that we've
(26:38):
been talking about impostersyndrome and also advocating for
yourself.
So tell me all about that.
Sure, I'd love to.
It's a four month acceleratorfor leaders who are ready to get
promoted or hired andrecognized.
The framework is you are anexceptional leader, and it is
time to hype yourself.
so many folks I talked to arethey know they're good at what
(27:00):
they do.
They deliver value every day.
Colleagues see them as a highachiever and they are hungry for
that next thing, a promotion,the next job, or they just want
more recognition at work andsomething isn't clicking.
And so, um, whether it's likethey deliver amazing results and
senior leadership, isn't.
Noticing or they land initialinterviews, but they're not
progressing to the next round.
(27:21):
and so it's, it all is rooted inwhat we were just talking about.
This idea of no one willrecognize your value if you
don't promote yourself.
and so speak up is.
Built around that.
So, um, so I love that.
Well, what we will do is I willlink that in the show notes for
anyone who's interested in thespeak up program or anyone who
might struggle with reallyadvocating for yourself.
(27:44):
And.
Promoting yourself andessentially speaking up for
yourself, but Sarah, what I loveto do is I always in the podcast
on this note is what is that onepiece of advice you would give
the Sarah who was a stagemanager turned VP, but the Sarah
who wasn't getting that nextjob.
What is that one piece of adviceyou would tell her?
(28:05):
Oh, that's a great question.
Um, I think that, it comes backto, you are amazing at what you
do and If you're, anytime you'refeeling stuck or maybe like
you're not progressing in theway that you want, sometimes
it's worth just taking a momentto look in the mirror, whatever
that means to you, whether it'sjournaling or taking time to go
(28:28):
back and look at your career andActually document some of your
accomplishments or, talking tofriends who have seen you work
and can reflect that back toyou, but really find a version,
a way to look at the mirror andsee what you've done to get
where you are today so that youcan build on that to get to the
next thing.
I love it.
And that's a great first step,right?
(28:49):
Document, document what you'vealready freaking done already,
you know?
Oh, well, Sarah, thank you somuch for being here.
This conversation was soimportant.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Erica.
It's been a real pleasure totalk to you.
Oh, that was such a good one.
Today.
I am obsessed with talking aboutbragging and achievement
(29:09):
dysmorphia now.
C'est, but thank you for tuninginto this conversation with
Sarah, her journey fromcorporate soldier to empowerment
instigator.
It really shows us that the pathto leadership isn't about
climbing the ladder.
It's about building your ownladder one, empowering step at a
(29:30):
time.
Now if today's episode resonatedwith you, I would be so
incredibly grateful.
If you would take a moment torate, review and subscribe to
our podcast, your feedback, ithelps me grow.
It also enables me to bring moreinspiring stories like Sarah's
directly to you.
So please make sure hit thatlittle five-star button and
(29:52):
let's keep this rolling.
One thing I want to remind youof though, before you leave me,
is stop putting ceilings on whatis possible and start smashing
through them.
Thanks again.
And I'll see you next time.
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