Captain America: Brave New World w Will Rose

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Grub and Grace.

(00:04):
I am your host, Mark Flower, and we will be talking Captain America Brave New World with
my guest, Will Rose.
Now with everything going on in our socio-political atmosphere here in America, as well as the
rest of the world, we both viewed Brave New World in a different light than just your
typical superhero flick.

(00:27):
Whether it be global tensions, an unhinged president, the treatment of military veterans,
or military propaganda to curb the record low recruitment crisis, this film gave us
plenty to talk about.
One of the big talking points was racism and how it manifests through cinema.

(00:49):
Throughout history, whitewashing characters, white actors playing non-white characters,
have been commonly used in America for theatrical media since the 1930s alongside Jim Crow with
the invention of minstrelsy, or minstrel, stage performances and posters.

(01:09):
These very racist and ridiculous portrayals have evolved in media since then, albeit still
remain just as racist.
Even in 2008's Tropic Thunder, do we see Robert Downey Jr. lathered up in blackface
and brushed off as ironic, comedic effect.
Today, we still see racism through stereotyping and typecasting for specific roles.

(01:35):
We love our labels.
However, there have been plenty of films and portrayals which attempt to break cultural
norms.
Jordan Peele is a director that comes to mind when it comes to breaking those norms while
uplifting voices from people of color.
Captain America, Brave New World does well in some aspects of this, while failing in

(02:01):
others.
Like, the repurposing of a character who has a troubling history of being racist towards
people of Arab descent.
The character I am referring to is the Mossad agent Sabra, also known as Ruth Bat-Saraf
in the film.
Sabra is a Hebrew word that refers to a Jewish person born in Israel.

(02:25):
Sabra also happens to be the name of a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon, which still exists
today.
In 1982, Sabra and Shatila, a neighboring camp, were the sites of a horrific massacre
where Israeli allied militiamen from the right wing Lebanese Christian Kataib party and the

(02:48):
South Lebanon army tortured and murdered 3,500 Palestinians and Lebanese civilians in an
attack that lasted three days.
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and Harvard Law, among others, have reported
that the Israeli government and police force, the same agencies that Sabra fictitiously

(03:12):
work for, are realistically practicing apartheid to this day.
Aside from the catastrophic bombing raids, and not just the ones that we've seen over
the past couple years, but there are also plenty more stories of shooting civilians
in the head with rubber bullets, Palestinian civil service organizations being labeled

(03:34):
as terrorist organizations, and wrongful detaining of Palestinian children for an indefinite
amount of time in a prison system that is well known to mistreat and abuse their prisoners.
Even though Marvel did attempt to reconstitute Sabra and distance her character from the
past, this new approach is laughable, that it would ease the generational pain.

(04:02):
There is nothing wrong with wanting a Jewish hero, but there are plenty of other options
to do so.
226 others, in fact.
It feels like the powers that be are ignoring the real life atrocities happening to people
in a tone deaf move, like putting a racist, outdated character like Sabra in a large blockbuster

(04:26):
franchise.
And this is an incredible insult to Palestinian, Muslim, and Arab fans around the world.
But as a Jesus following Christian, how are we loving our neighbors if the harm brought
to them isn't stirring something inside of us?

(04:47):
Anthony Mackie made a stir over a statement when he said,
Captain America represents a lot of different things, and I don't think the term America
should be one of those representations.
It's about a man who keeps his word, who has honor, dignity, and integrity.

(05:09):
Oftentimes, pride for our country can be elevated, and that can be conflated with certain ideas
and principles.
When Mackie says that the character represents integrity more so than the idea of America,
he means Captain America exhibits the characteristics of what patriotism should look like, being

(05:29):
strong, fearless, confident, true, honest, kind, good, having integrity, dignity, and
heart the entire American dream.
During the time Steve Rogers held the shield, his deconstruction of wanting to actually

(05:50):
be the symbolization for America aside from a Hitler punching America first icon is a
very integral reason as to why Sam gets the shield.
Bucky Barnes tells Sam, he gave you the shield because you're you.
Steve Rogers is everything that Captain America should be, and he chooses to pass the definition

(06:15):
of that shield and the honor in the title on to somebody that he believes holds those
key representations, which is Sam Wilson.
Neil and I dig further into everything here.
I do truly hope you enjoy our discussion on Captain America, Brave New World.

(06:46):
Welcome back to Grub & Grace.
I'm your host, Mark Flower.
I'm here today with Will Rose.
He stands as a pastor at a Lutheran ministry from Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
He is an unashamed geekologist and loves to nerd out with deep geeky and theological questions.
Welcome, Will.
Ah, so good to be here.
Yeah, we met at Theology of Beer Camp a few months back last year in October, and we rubbed

(07:11):
shoulders and introduced ourselves.
And then here we are months later podcasting together, geeking out on things.
So yeah, that's the joy of this thing called podcasting, the connection that we all make.
I love it.
Here we are.
And speaking of Theology of Beer Camp, I know they just released the 2025.
It's going to be in Minnesota.
Are you planning on going into that one, too?
I hope to.

(07:31):
I really like in terms of life and family and ministry and all that kind of stuff.
My goal is to be there at St. Paul, Minnesota.
That is Lutheran land.
There's a lot of Lutherans in Minnesota.
I've never been to St. Paul, never been to Minneapolis and that kind of area.
So I would love to go.
And it's been to my church hosted Theology of Beer Camp in twenty twenty three, twenty

(07:56):
twenty two, twenty three.
Yeah.
Three, three, three beer camps ago.
It was here in Chapel Hill, then it was in Missouri and then Denver.
And so, yeah, I would love to go to Minnesota and then keep going to these because it really
is a highlight of my year.
Reconnect with friends and podcasters and being stimulated by the conversations and

(08:17):
questions that are lifted up in those spaces.
And in my book, all all the stuff that interests me overlap at theology beer camp.
And so I would love to be there.
Hopefully life will allow me.
And not to mention all the people that are going to be speaking, all the authors, all
the speakers, the public speakers that show up and theologians that talk on subjects.

(08:39):
Of course, you were on a couple of panels for some of the more kind of geeky subjects.
We also have like Brian McLaren, we have Grace, Jason Kim, we have John Thaddeam.
So you get a lot of really good voices putting their input into the whole thing.
So it's really cool to see.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, there's there's comic cons and there's conventions and Star Wars conventions

(09:00):
and Star Trek conventions, all that, that bring in all the big heavy hitters that are
in those fandoms.
And I feel like the Algebra Camp is definitely trip fuller con.
It's a convention of all like his full year of all the people he has on his podcast and
the things he gets out on and loves all coming to it.
And he is a youth pastor at heart.
And so it's like it's like youth camp.

(09:21):
It's like a youth group lock in.
It's it's a theology conference all wrapped up into one and all the personality, all the
personality that trip has all comes out there at the Algebra Camp.
And as a youth pastor at heart, but myself and love all those things, it's just really
as a blast.
So yeah, we hope that people can come out to that and meet us and hopefully there'll

(09:41):
be a geek stage or pop pop culture stage or something of that nature at the next one,
too, that will curate and do some.
Yeah, he hasn't released a list yet of who's going to be speakers or anything like that.
So I don't know if he's actually found enough people to really fill the spots yet, but I
would love to see you on the stage again and listen to what you have to say on whatever
topic you're talking about.
Cool.

(10:01):
So why don't we jump into because we have a lot to talk about.
I put a lot of notes on this and I don't know if we're going to get to everything.
So why don't we kind of jump into it?
We're talking about the movie Captain America, Brave New World, and we're going to be talking
about how what our thoughts on it, first of all, and then also how it kind of relates
to the world, kind of a lot of these nuances that that have caused controversies or just

(10:24):
discussion topics that were brought up in the movie that we can maybe discuss about,
you know, how do we relate this to the world we live in?
So yeah, I'll just jump out.
Maybe we can start off with our overall thoughts.
Sure.
What aspects you liked, what aspects you didn't like about the film.
I'll kind of put that in your your ball court here.
Yeah.
Yes.

(10:45):
Hard not to watch this movie through the lens of what's going on in our present day political
situation in America is called Captain America, Brave New World with a black Captain America
with an unhinged president who becomes a Red Hulk at the end.
And there's conversation about, you know, there's assassination attempts and and there's

(11:09):
conspiracy theories and there's a villain in the shadows who are kind of pulling the
strings with technology and A.I. and mind control.
So it is hard not to look at this movie through the lens of what's going on in our present
day, even though this was filmed, you know, a year ago with lots of rewrites and edits
and all kinds of things they had to deal with.
Not only like, you know, I don't think this was like affected by Covid, but it was definitely

(11:33):
affected by by writer strikes like they are full force and then you had the writer strike
and then negotiations and then rewrite.
So it went through the wringer a lot.
And and since in game, the MCU is really it just stuck the landing.
In my humble opinion, I think most people say stuck the landing for a decade of interconnected
continuity and movies that all kind of fit together.

(11:55):
Yeah, there are some some wins.
There were some that weren't received as well.
A few duds here and there, but all connected and led to somewhere.
And so everyone after in game was was really wanting to see where MCU would head next.
What's the next phase?
Who's the next big villain?
Can they recreate what the magic they had going into Infinity War and in game?

(12:16):
And I think because of Covid and because of not just find a direction or a clear direction
of where they're headed, it's been kind of hit or miss since since end game.
And this kind of falls in like, OK, brave new world next phase.
Let's go.
They're going to be, you know, Comic Con.
They announced some new Avengers.

(12:36):
They Robert Downey Jr. is going to play Dr. Doom.
They build up all this stuff.
And so this movie was maybe a springboard into that brave new world.
And for me personally, I I was I was kind of let down.
And the more I think about it, the more I think about, you know, I was very positive
coming out of me was like, oh, the solid comic book movie, solid Captain America movie.
And I kind of thought about it.

(12:57):
I was like, man, it wasn't as brave or as new as I wanted it to be.
And then I geeked out with Joshua and he kind of his his enthusiasm and geekiness was contagious.
And I even bumped up my score a little bit.
I was like, yeah, he loves this movie so much.
He loves cherry blossoms.
He has a tattoo of a cherry blossom.
He loves red.
He loves his cat.
Maybe maybe I need to like it more than I did.

(13:17):
But then since then, I've been thinking about it and here in other reviews, I'm like, you
know, I kind of bumped it down a little bit just because I didn't take that brave new
step into a new phase into the Marvel Universe.
I kind of played it safe.
And I love Sam Wilson as Cap.
I thought it was a solid cat movie.
I thought it played that formula, the Marvel formula fine.

(13:40):
You know, you had its three acts and it built to the final final, you know, conflict between
Hulk and Cap.
And then I loved it that Sam Wilson, the counselor that he is the trauma counselor for people
with PTSD was able to deescalate and talk down the whole like that was perfect.
I loved it.
That was a great way to end that movie.
But then the end credits scene fell really flat to me.

(14:04):
And I know you shouldn't judge a whole movie just on end credits.
Maybe you had an opportunity to really get people excited about what's next after this.
And you just I don't know.
I was like, what?
No other Avengers know that.
He didn't tell us we didn't already know that there there's more worlds and more threats
out there.
Of course.

(14:25):
Like what are we doing?
And I say all that is to say, you know, kind of long winded to say, I, you know, I invested
a lot of these movies and love them and went to have fun.
And I did have fun.
But I just wanted just a little bit more for the wider universe that is the MCU.
After 35 MCU movies.
Here we go.
Let's let's do something a little braver, newer and go from there.

(14:48):
So but I also understand that it's entangled with politics, a world market, trying to make
money.
And there's countries that this is going to debut in.
And so how do you talk about Russia or Ukraine or China?
You know, in this movie, they play it safe.
They talk about, you know, France, there was Japan, you know, anyway.

(15:11):
So I don't want to go off on.
I agree.
I think it did play very safe.
I think the aspects I did like was that it was enjoyable to watch overall.
I think it was a it was a fun action movie.
And it's one of those things that you can't get too bogged down.
I mean, it's a Marvel movie.
Marvel movies are notorious for not being Oscar quality.

(15:33):
They're meant to be fun.
They're meant to be adaptations of what people love from the comics and from what the characters.
And I think they had some really fun action scenes like fight scenes.
I heard some people talking about the choreography being a little flat and predictable.
But I honestly enjoyed some of those action scenes.
I thought I actually thought that he was a little better fighter than like some of those

(15:55):
cap, those original like Steve Rogers fighting scenes.
Steve Rogers, a little bit more just kind of like, you know, throwing the punch, the
typical like, you know, very, very kind of choreographed.
It felt, you know, those felt like shield and this shield and this.
But I think I think what they threw in with the Anthony Mackie or Anthony Mackie's character,

(16:16):
Sam Wilson character that they threw in a little bit more of those aerial acrobatics,
which he got from being was a falcon.
Sorry, my comic book.
No, no, no.
Don't apologize at all.
No geek shaming, no geek shaming.
So I loved a lot of those actions scenes.
But then, yeah, it fell flat because I felt like it wasn't the braveness that that it,

(16:39):
you know, is trying to market itself as.
It touched on some of the topics, but it almost like tenderfooted around a lot of it.
It touched on like, you know, how how USA treats like veterans, some of the world geographical
or geopolitical political situations right now, like instead of talking about China and
Russia, they talked about, you know, France and Japan, Japan being almost like a place

(17:02):
in our placeholder for like China.
And they did India, of course, of course, with the proximity with the Indian Ocean and
where the celestial landed.
But yeah, it definitely could have gone a little further.
And I think like you were talking about, kind of, you know, it has to make money.
It's a, you know, living in such a capitalistic world as we are today, they have to figure

(17:25):
out how they can make money if they if they, you know, are truly being brave.
They're probably not going to make the money because it's going to cause controversy.
People are going to boycott it just because they're like, I don't want to hear what they
have to say if they're just going to show one side of it and be partisan.
So so I think there is reasons why they did all that.
But yeah, I wish it would have been a little more brave to.
Yeah, and I can almost hear Joshua listening to this and go, but they were brave in this

(17:48):
moment.
They were brave in this moment.
And there are moments when it was brave, I guess, for me, you know, I don't think there
was any mischaracterization of the characters.
Like I read the source material, I read the comics.
If I'm looking at all the characters in here, I don't think there was a character that was
misrepresented or sounded out of character.

(18:09):
I just wanted to lead into some things a little harder.
I wanted them.
I didn't want it just to be a sequel of the Falcon and Winter Soldier, the Disney plus
TV show.
One of them, if they're here's the next movie in the next phase, maybe the Thunderbolts
is going to be that maybe the Fantastic Four is going to be that.
But I feel like the last handful of movies, I've always kind of maybe the next one, they're

(18:31):
going to widen the universe and interconnected and lead somewhere.
Where's this going?
I know they they were again, like so many roadblocks and detours when it comes to covid
writer strikes.
They had a big villain called Kang that they had to they had to about face on because of
that actor was problematic and and and some of the way that he treated and got canceled.

(18:56):
But then recast Kang, I don't know, recast him with a different, you know, he's from
the multiverse.
He can learn from recasting.
Yeah, we probably can recast.
You know, so they've had some roadblocks and try to figure it out.
And I don't want necessarily to them to recreate Infinity War and Endgame, but what's what's
the next?
I think talking about comics and the source material, comics do it all the time.

(19:17):
They have new creative teams, they have new writers, they have reboots, they go back to
issue number one, legacy number 800, new creative team.
Let's take Batman in a whole new cool direction.
Let's take Cap in a new direction.
Let's let's give the shield to someone else and see where this character can go with it.
And comics do it all the time.
So I think movies can do it, too.
I just I went in just, you know, expect a little bit more.

(19:38):
And it wasn't really there.
My expectations really weren't met.
But I all in all, I had fun, saw the comic book movie.
I probably probably watched it again.
I can't say that with some of the comic book movies that I don't like or have problems
with.
I'll probably go see this again.
I'll pull up on Disney Plus when it starts live streaming.
I hope it gets a little bit of legs.
But it was also brave and bold that it leaned into the Eternals, which was people were problematic

(19:59):
with.
They leaned into the Incredible Hulk movie that came out the same time as the original
Iron Man movie.
Like if you didn't, if you don't.
Yeah.
If you don't remember that Incredible Hulk, egg norton movie is that was the brave, bold
thing to do.
They did a sequel to a movie that was like 15 years old that expected to know about.
And then, you know, I kind of leaned in a little bit to my wife who goes see she doesn't

(20:22):
read the source material, but she goes see these movies with me.
And I was kind of like whispering a few things.
She's like, OK, I was that, you know, so she had a little bit of work to do to try to figure
out some of the, you know, the comic book Easter eggs that nerds that read the comics
like, oh, that's the leader.
Oh, Antimandium.
That's that's the metal that's in Wolverine's bones and claws.
And they're leading to the X-Men.

(20:42):
So then why not?
Why leave it at Antimandium?
Not at the end.
Why not show Wolverine or talk more about what's coming next with mutants?
You could have just another Mike.
I don't want to rewrite it.
I'm not a writer.
I don't work for Marvel, but I don't want to would have, could have, should be happy
with the movie that you got.
But there's a couple of moves that I thought they were going to go towards and lean into
and go down a direction and they they didn't.

(21:04):
So it's kind of left hanging.
So that's my overall thoughts on on the movie.
But I know there's some interconnected political things in here and source material stuff.
They'll be happy to share and talk about.
Yeah.
Why don't we why don't we kind of jump down to that?
Sure.
But let's go and jump into some of these controversies like you're talking about.
So like many high profile films out of Hollywood, there are things that cause people to question

(21:27):
whether they want to watch or not.
Brave New World isn't any exception with reshoots.
Fans not happy about the antagonist or the villains.
Negative screen tests like you were talking about.
Promotional statements.
Repurposing of historical racist characters.
Just throwing that out there.
So starting with Anthony Mackie's statement, what are your thoughts about how he phrased
who Captain America is and what he stands for?

(21:50):
Well, I find it somewhat comical that Chris Evans said similar things back around when
he was donning the shield and and and symbol of Captain America.
He said similar thing.
I'm going to pause you right there, actually, because I wonder if just my listeners, because

(22:12):
a lot of my listeners might actually not know what was said.
So sorry.
I already cut you off, but I want to read Anthony Mackie's statement.
So he said I was in an interview and on like a TV press press release thing.
Captain America represents a lot of different things.
And I don't think the term America should be one of those representations.

(22:34):
It's about a man who keeps his word, who has honor, dignity and integrity.
That's what a lot of people have problem with.
And then why don't you, since you're going to be bringing in what Chris Evans said, why
don't I just go and say what he said?
Yeah.
I'm sure that so he says, well, to me, I'm not trying to get too lost in the American
side of it.
This isn't a flag waving movie.
It's a red, white and blue.

(22:55):
But it just so happens that the character was created in America during wartime when
there was a common enemy, even though it is Captain America.
I've said before in interviews, it feels more like he should just be called Captain
Good.
And then he laughs.
You know, he was created at a time when there was an undeniable evil.
And this guy was kind of created to fight that evil.
I think that everyone could agree that Nazis were bad.

(23:18):
And he cap just so happens to wear the red, white and blue.
So like you're saying, they're very similar.
So I'll let you kind of kick it off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I well, I think, you know, part of this character is hard to separate America from this character
because he's literally dressed as an American flag.

(23:40):
You know, so his costume is red, right?
But it's an American flag and the shield.
You know, it's so iconic with Captain America.
So I don't a little bit.
You know, I see what they're trying to say, maybe not saying it, you know, in the heat
of the press conference or articulate it perfectly or whatever.
I think it's hard to separate America from from the symbol that is Captain America or

(24:00):
how it's created.
But I hear what they're saying.
It's not just an American thing.
If you're going to lean too hard into kind of like hardcore patriotism and and American
do no wrong and if you America is without fault and if you go against America policies
at all, then you don't must not be a fan of Captain America or capitalism or freedom
or whatever.

(24:21):
I can see where they're going up because I think no matter who dons or wears that costume
is that the symbol of the shield is bigger than the person who's under the mask is similar
to Batman.
You know, the the the Batman symbol and the cowl, there's of course Bruce Wayne is Batman

(24:41):
and define who Batman is.
But there have been many people over the course of comics who have donned the cowl and been
Batman to Grayson.
Others, you know, it's more of a symbol of fighting crime or or stand up for what's good
or justice, vigilantism, whatever you want to label that is bigger.

(25:02):
So I think America is the same even our flag means a lot to different people.
But for some, it can be a scary thing for a lot of people in power and privilege can
look at the flag and be like, yep, it gives me hope.
It helps me stand up taller and salute and others would be like, you know, I've been
I've been hurt by this.
I've been oppressed by this.
The movie tries to go into that a little bit.

(25:23):
So I understand what they're saying for me to for people to backlash because here's this
black man saying this thing about America.
Well, Chris Evans said similar things back to so and I and there's even a time in the
comics in the 1970s when Steve Rogers, because he was disillusioned by Watergate in Vietnam

(25:43):
in the comics back in I think 74 or something like that, became took off the Captain America
costume and shield and became Nomad because he didn't want to be that character anymore.
And then eventually comes around and says, I'm going to reclaim this repurpose this.
And maybe I lost sight of it a little bit, but maybe I can have a vision of what an aspiration

(26:05):
for others to look at this and to give them hope and to change the narrative of what we
are, what we stand for across the world.
So I think we can kind of look in through the lens of present day political politics,
geopolitics, Christian nationalism, whatever we can say the same.
Like, do we want them to overtake and repurpose this American flag or the shield or or do

(26:25):
we want to not give it up and say this is what I believe it stands for over and over
and against evil, fascism, whatever word really, but we're going to yell at it.
So that's kind of where I am.
I think people will find soundbites and use soundbites as a way to tear down something
not listen to the whole context or forget there are other people to have said the same

(26:49):
thing in different ways.
Yeah, it's when a white person, Chris Evans, says essentially the same thing that Anthony
Mackey is just in different words.
It's all of a sudden it's a big backlash when Chris Evans didn't really get anything.
It's I mean, I think I know what the answer that is.
And I'm sure whoever's listening is probably understanding what I'm getting at.

(27:10):
And he got a little bit of backlash.
I think Chris Evans, it wasn't it didn't stop people from seeing the movies or look at him.
I think there is there's a little criticism there.
Like, what do you mean?
What do you say about that?
You know what?
Hey, what's going on here?
But of course, you know, the those who, you know, see this kind of race swapping with
Captain America as something like, oh, here we go again, replacement theory or whatever

(27:33):
you want to throw at it.
Here's an example of why this is wrong.
When other people said similar things to look at this more nuanced idea of what the shield
represents and the flag represents and this superhero represents.
And in the movie I did another part I liked about the movie is he didn't take the super
soldier serum.
I like that aspect of wrestling with do am I just me?

(27:55):
Am I using the tech or do I am I am I Steve Rogers?
Am I not?
He did so much.
Should we all look up to him?
Should I take the serum and be just like him and have superpowers or or do I have what's
within me as a normal, everyday man, human to dawn the shield that other people can can
do it along with me to without, you know, juice enough or using steroids, whatever you

(28:18):
want to call it kind of thing.
So I found that interesting that conversation.
I liked it.
I like that.
That's kind of the whole idea of like Iron Man.
Like he's surrounded by all these super powered people and he has a very fancy suit, but he's
just a normal person under these suits in a very wealthy suit person.
Money for super power.

(28:39):
Yeah, like hearing these kind of stories like you were talking about of, you know, just
normal people that have, you know, fancy technology that allows them to kind of keep pace with
a lot of these super powered beings and it kind of grounds it a little bit.
So it's not just like this fantasy world, but it kind of brings a little bit more of
kind of the real reality into it.
Of course, it's not a real reality.

(29:00):
It's still you're still in a fantasy world and fantasy stories, but it's fun.
But and yes, fantasy and their superhero hijinks.
But I, you know, they lean into like drone warfare.
How tech is moving, mind control, algorithms being triggered by certain flashes or songs,
you know.

(29:20):
Yeah, that's just kind of a subtle way of saying or not so subtle way of saying like
how are we being triggered with words and phrases in our algorithms on social media
or AI and those kinds of things.
One of my hesitancies of this, one of the big, big fears of the present day presidential
cabinet and those in office holding power was who's going to wield the accelerating

(29:45):
nature of tech and AI.
Who do we want that to be in the hands of?
And yeah, I don't trust Trump or Musk with those.
And yet they're sitting in seats of power and they have that at their fingertips and
trying every way to hold on to it.
So that makes me really nervous.
So it was hard for me to watch this movie, you know, the leader triggering people, mind
control, medicine, pharmaceutical, drones, all those things.

(30:09):
I was just like, oh, it made me uneasy.
And maybe that was that's the right response.
Of course, if it doesn't make me uneasy, then, you know, I should be scared of that.
It's the whole idea of the imperial boomerang.
I don't know if you've heard that term before, but so the imperial boomerang, it's the idea
that what happens outside of the imperial empire, so America, what they do on a global

(30:32):
stage show what's happening in Palestine, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening
in like Congo, what's happening in Lebanon, Yemen, all these tools of war, the industrial
military complex, they're going to they're going to use those tools and it's going to
boomerang back to us onto the people of America.
You already see this with the building of cop cities.
A lot of people are protesting those, but they're they're pretty much built them in every single

(30:54):
state.
And they're being trained with the same tactics as the use in Israel against Palestinians.
So if you've been following anything with what's been happening in Palestine and the
treatment of Palestinians and the bombs they use, the weapons they use, like you're talking
about drone drone technology, that's all it's all speculated.
It's all going to boomerang right back onto the people.

(31:16):
Right now, it's immigrants that are being demonized and, you know, rounded up to be sent out.
But where's that going to stop?
It's once once people that are demonized, like in that category of immigrants, particularly
Hispanic people right now, it's going to boomerang onto the next minority and then the next minority.
And after a time, that's going to pretty much open up to everybody, any dissenter against

(31:40):
the empire.
So you could be like us, you'd be just a white cis hetero male.
And if you are a dissenter in thought against the imperial empire, you're going to be a
target too.
So I mean, nobody's really going to be safe unless you you you fall in line with what
they want.
So that's kind of the idea of the imperial boomerang.

(32:04):
And that and yeah, it makes me lazy and scary and it should.
And in the same way, like, yeah, I'm white privileged, cis hetero male.
But I'm a Lutheran minister and I'm not quite the right kind of Christianity that aligns
with Trumpism.
And so we get called money launderers on on X and and we get defunded.

(32:26):
Our Lutheran Social Service Agency gets defunded because we're, quote unquote, money laundering
to house refugees, immigrants when when the ignorance and dangerous state ignorant and
dangerous statements is that is that it affects most of the Lutheran social services are are
80 percent is with assisted living nursing homes that house mainly older people.

(32:52):
So so it's just like not that they should have privilege, but it's just they don't
know what they're doing in terms of foster care, what they're doing with with those in
an assisted living facilities, those with living with disabilities or brain trauma that
that Lutheran Social Services attends to.
But yet you're going to call money launderers because they use so many to take care of refugees
who've been vetted and and been brought into this country for for safety reasons, who are

(33:17):
facing danger and death in other countries and here legally because of that.
So so is that kind of stuff?
Like you said, the imperial boomerang is coming back around and not just with people who have
different color skin, but maybe maybe of a different.
Yeah, they're Christian, but they're not real Christian because they don't align with this
type of Christianity that aligns itself with with Trump.

(33:38):
So yeah, even my very passive and introverted Lutheran friends in my algorithms were outraged
when that came out.
I was like, oh, here we go.
Here we go.
We got the Lutherans route up.
Man, something's really getting the Lutheran route up.
What's going on?
I could see a lot of like the the lash back against like the the UMC, like United Methodist

(33:58):
Church.
But yeah, once you get the Lutherans involved, man, that it's real.
I'm going to jump into the next controversy, the next big controversy.
I think I hinted at before this racist character.
But Marvel has come under scrutiny over the use of the character Ruth Batserath, an Israeli
secret agent, a.k.a. Sabra, who has a troubling history portrayal in Marvel comics as routinely

(34:22):
racist towards people who are of Arab descent.
Given the decades of ethnic cleansing, apartheid and genocide that Israel is committing against
the Palestinian people, many would consider this a very tone deaf move for Marvel Studios
and ultimately through Disney.
Do you have any thoughts about the repurposing of Sabra and the MCU?
Yeah, I didn't make that connection because I wasn't very it's not like she was a mainstream

(34:47):
superhero that has her own book that's been, you know, on on the bookshelves or the spinner
racks and comic stores for the last 20 or 30 years.
She definitely, you know, was around.
She's definitely Israeli superhero when they try to make superheroes a little bit more
worldwide and you have superheroes from China and Israel and Russia.
The X-Men has like this United Nation superhero group that come together from Africa and Canada

(35:12):
and Russia and all that kind of stuff.
So I wasn't that familiar with her.
When she came up, I liked her as a character in the movie because it's like, oh, she's
so tiny just next to the other people in the movie itself.
But yes, she's a secret agent and she's a former black widow and just kicks all kinds
of I just really liked her character.
Maybe within after maybe I was like that name sounds familiar when I started seeing, oh,

(35:35):
they repurposed her in the movie.
Did they say she was Israeli or that she just they kind of they kind of.
They like brushed very quickly.
So what they did was they had that that one little like, you know, dialogue that just
kind of explains who they are very, you know, very, you know, nicely up in a bow.
They basically said, oh, she she's from Israel, but she's a black widow.

(35:58):
And when visually when that when they said that she was Israeli, they had I think it
was walking to his character, they had his back turned to the camera and they quickly
cut to Anthony Mackie right when he was saying that.
So it was kind of like they were just kind of trying to like, oh, they're just going
to pull our little gymnastics here and try to make it so that nobody really, you know,
makes the connections or anything like that.

(36:21):
And for me, it's like, why, why, why that character?
Yeah, I mean, you can make a black widow from any country anywhere around to another another
kind of widow, Jason Bourne, ninja slash person who's really good at fighting and protecting
people could have been anybody.
She's that same actress for for another kind of Marvel deep cut.

(36:42):
Yeah, that that Marvel deep cut along with like the decision to make the leader of the
villain from the Incredible Hulk movie from 15 years ago.
Like, yeah, I guess brave bull choice, you know, or trying to trying to go deep cut.
I guess that was the brave choice.
That was a brave choice.
It's like there's a there's so many deep cut characters out there that you could pull from.

(37:05):
Why that one, you know, but them repurposing her in a different light for other things.
I can see where they want to play around with that or repurpose it, redeem the character,
not not leading to that.
But yeah, that definitely has a problematic past.
And I even think the comics like there was a little bit reading up on her a little bit
in the comics.
I've never seen her come up any of my comics I've read, but on other like, again, deep

(37:29):
cut Avenger books and things.
But they they for her to to have a little bit of a redemption art of, oh, I see Arabs
as evil.
Oh, wait, here's a real person in front of me.
Maybe I shouldn't think that way anymore is kind of what they tried to do in the comics.
The same way like with X-Men with Magneto and Professor X playing around with Dr. Martin

(37:53):
Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X and two different versions of racial justice.
And how can they work together?
Who's the villain?
Who's a good guy?
Who's good around with that?
You know, either for better or for worse in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
And then and now X-Men, kind of the mutants have have leaned still.
There's still some allegory around race and racism, but more in terms of the queer community

(38:14):
and their civil rights and those kinds of things and how they're treated in mainstream.
So So yeah, again, strange bold choice to pull that deep cut character in a world and
Yeah, I'm actually black widow right anybody can be a black widow
Because they were just trained in their their assassin group like like John wick right there's underground

(38:38):
assassin
Assassins trained to go out and about we're gonna see another one in the Thunderbolts movie
He was a very good friends and sisters with the original black widow. I like I like that
thread of
This underground assassins the widows and what's going on? But yeah weird character for a deep cut pole. Yeah

(38:59):
I'm so I'm actually glad you brought up Magneto cuz and and the whole idea with Malcolm X and Martin Luther came because
Stan Lee was actually trying to work in some of these principles around those those leaders and into the the character of Magneto and and
they were kind of inspiration for that character, although Magneto ended up being a white man that was of
Jewish descent his character itself the the core of the character was actually meant to bring in some of this

(39:24):
conflict and struggle that that those those other leaders in the
In the movement had really kind of struggled with and and kind of talked about so I think that was really cool
And then of course you were talking about they did make that statement and they tried to rework the character of Sabra in the comics
So they did make a statement to take a new approach with the character
But then given those socio-political issues that the character is very problematic especially considering that there are already other Jewish heroes

(39:50):
And I looked it up
I think there was a 226 other Jewish heroes that they could have pulled from in the Marvel universe
Which is funny that they still went with this very
problematic character in history and I and I
When you said that you had never seen her in any comics that that come up with you. I
I believe Sabra. I think she had her own comics. She was essentially the

(40:14):
Version of Captain America for Israel and I think a lot of her comics were primarily
Distributed and circulated in Israel and a lot of those surrounding areas
I think they did show up here in America somewhat and I think she did pop in here and there
But I think that's probably why you didn't see that
So so maybe to give a little backstory for those who are listening

(40:35):
I think in like oh, you're just calling a racist cuz she's Jewish and Jewish. No, well here's a little backstory about about her
So her first appearance was in the Incredible Hulk number 256, which came out in 1962 creates an oversimplicate
oversimplification of a decades-long history between Israel and Palestine and the ethnic cleansing as the ethnic cleansing of the former
To the latter she gets into a fight with the Incredible Hulk because she thinks the Hulk is helping an Arab terrorist

(41:00):
and if you know anything about
oversimplification of Arabs being terrorists and and the and the reasoning logic behind who was actually a terrorist and who's just an
Arab person is a little
Misconstrued a lot with over there
So a Palestinian boy gets caught up in the crossfire and dies
So the Hulk rages and says boy died because boys people and yours both want your own land boy died because you wouldn't share

(41:25):
So that's how that kind of all started out
So her racist attitude sort of Arab people doesn't waver much through the whole comics history
Although like you were talking about they did try to change her
Marvel comics did try to do like a wake-up call for her character after the Hulk after that Hulk incident
She became work mark say what she became woke

(41:49):
No a wake-up call
Okay, yes, just check it so she basically had an on-and-off again relationship with an Arab person
but
She which kind of when she first started, you know having this relationship with this person
She she basically she realized that she was used as a weapon of war and and that she was and not to see the Arab people

(42:12):
As like a monolith monolith, but through that relationship. She was still had expressed a lot of these kind of racist
Viewpoints, although that you know ended after a certain time and she continued to you know, have a lot of this
So trying to rework that it still didn't necessarily cover everything up
So that that's why she's still very problematic in in the history of her character and why they still use her

(42:36):
So I think that's why a lot of people had a lot of issue with her and and all that
Yeah
Yeah
and it interesting that you know her first appearance or a story arc in Incredible Hulk and in this movie pulled from
Incredible Hulk movie and you have a red Hulk
So so maybe the line of thought there was like, oh here's kind of a deep cut from Incredible Hulk that we can pull in and
repurpose redeem a little bit and

(42:57):
I do like how she was skeptical at first and I had her own kind of transformation end up helping
Sam and being on the team is kind of a you know strike force team that using her gifts of that that
hallway fight scene
You know Marvel's good for a good hallway fight scene and to have her in there to show her kicks on that was
It's pretty fun. But but yeah, I mean again like of all all the things you're gonna pull from you're gonna do that one

(43:19):
There's so many characters
characters for building towards a new like again like the president president Harrison Ford was like hey
We're gonna get a new we're gonna new Avengers team. Let's do it. You're like cool
Who's gonna be on the new Avengers team? You know, like a lewd who's gonna be on that?
Of course, you know cap new cap and new Falcon and alright, so is she gonna be the new black widow?

(43:42):
You have a new federal. I don't know. It just
Little clunky little clunky and I think the right to be shoots and edits, you know, it's like we're gonna be
a
Standalone movie. Is it a Disney plus show?
It's a lead into the next big Avengers team that everyone's excited about or or what was like
Didn't know where I wanted to be there. Yeah, that's a little force to me. Yeah, especially even that hallway fight

(44:05):
It felt a little force like oh, yeah, we got it. We got to show show everyone what she can do
Let's have her kick some ass
So, why don't we pull this Imperial boomerang right around into
Into world events and how it kind of maybe pull some stuff out of here
So given Marvel's track record of having pro-military propaganda in their films

(44:27):
How does this film portray a pro-militarism message and in what ways does Marvel go about their own way and kind of?
deviating from some of that yeah, I think
Again, like the president and this more talk about it. I'm trying not to pick it apart
I this particular president if you just got a good counselor and like
To talk about his issues with his daughter then maybe all this stuff

(44:50):
solved in like a
International fight over international waters of the celestial being and and f15s it was
That was a fun. There was some fun
You know see a dogfight in the air and get some Top Gun footage going on
but but yeah, I think it leaned into it so I mean it's hard not again not hard to
It's hard not to look at this through the lens of what's going on

(45:10):
But but international waters in different countries and misunderstandings and if we just understood each other and clear things up and Sam's in the middle
Falcons in the middle trying to help each other out not good or bad, but trying to de-escalate
International conflict, you know, they tried do they pull it off? I don't I don't know but I pro military
I mean, I think you saw in here some people who are like, yep

(45:33):
Or like Sidewinder that that whole that whole
a conspiracy group trying to steal antimandium and then you had like Sam's friend who
you know helped him out and
you know we're looking at the tech and and looking at the pills that the president was taking to see what was in them and
and he had some side friends who were
Who were like see the greater good and not just sell out for whatever the president is saying. I don't know

(46:00):
Where do you take on that mark in terms of that? I I saw that again
It's just like a another Marvel movie with with military and jets and international waters
And we're trying to say this hero doesn't play one side. They're just trying to help people get along
He's a counselor. So that's kind of what I saw it as and I wish there were more people like that out in the world
and in in my algorithms, but um,
How'd you see that playing out? Did they pull it off or I?

(46:24):
Think there were aspects of it that I don't know. I just saw the whole movie
I saw a lot of this pro mid militarism message and I think that's also why they kind of played a little safe so they
Can get the funding because there have been Marvel movies in the past where like, you know, they've gotten the funding for like, you know Ironman
Films and whatnot. I forget which

(46:45):
resource I was looking at there they're going breaking down each Marvel movie and how much they got from military funding and
other movies where they they didn't get the
Mark or the military funding because of certain things within it and the military has a very loose kind of logic as far as you know
Oh, this is very, you know, this is the direction that we want to go and there's no real set rules with that

(47:05):
If you look into it, yeah
it's it's more of a narrative that they want to push and if the movie is pushing like that certain narrative or if they're
Movie if the directors are willing to work with the military to push a certain message then they'll get the funding for that
There have been certain movies
I forget which ones exactly and why they didn't get the funding but they took a direction because they wanted to tell the story

(47:27):
And I think that's where what I've seen is that Marvel doesn't necessarily just always
Go for funding from military to fund the films and get you know millions of dollars to do all this is that they they do
have
enough leeway to say, you know, we want to tell the stories that the fans want to hear and
I don't know if this particular movie really goes along with that

(47:48):
It felt if to me it felt very like oh, let's let's work with the military on this one
So we can push a certain kind of vibe check that that works with them
But yeah, you didn't see a lot of like the you know, the mentions of like, you know, like real-life super soldiers
I mean that that's even coming across. Yeah, they're probably there isn't like serums that make people like, you know, Steve Rogers or like

(48:11):
Isaiah Bradley, but you do get like exoskeleton cybernetic implants genetic engineering brain computer interfaces
psycho stimulants or error and
anxiolytics, but there's other ways to
It's a new new term for me, but there's a lot of other ways that they can make these, you know
quote-unquote super soldiers and

(48:32):
Yeah
Yeah, and you know, if we think about their sister there
I mean the reason Captain America exists because it's a propaganda comic
With the first time he appeared was punching Hitler in the face on the cover of the comic before World War two before we even got
Into the war they're like look
There's this guy named Hitler overseas that we need to fight with the Captain America was popped up as a symbol of

(48:56):
Punching Nazis, you know, and so yeah, it's it was propaganda and and again within you know
the interconnecting circles in church of church life community and the toxicity around religious trauma like fan
Fandoms have that those same problems and get toxic and fandoms as well
there's people that get really territorial and and cancel culture or or

(49:18):
Get been out of shape because their favorite character wasn't handled in the way that they saw fit
And so we and and there's a whole group of fan was like
I just wish they keep their their politics out of my my entertainment and my superheroes and they do do you not understand this?
Captain America is where in America like it's always been political. What are you talking about? Oh, this movie's always like
What are you talking about? He was founded on that. That's how he started

(49:42):
And so yeah, you may not jive agree with him at least at least read it on his own
Read the source material see where this character has come from where it's going and there's definitely been Captain America stories
I really love and Captain America stories that didn't I know that's that's with all movies all TV shows all comics
And there's certain writers and creators that take it a direction that you really like and some of your favorites

(50:02):
I'm like, yeah, I think that I don't really vibe with that
I'll wait and see there's a new direction a new creative team. But yeah, it's it's it's always been
Pro military
Because that's how Captain America and even the Civil War story arcs
I mean those those are extraordinarily political and and it pulls on pretty much every

(50:23):
character of the Marvel universe into those story arcs and you get the whole idea of you know breaking off between the
degree and disagree of what they're about but it this whole idea of like
You know those who side with like Iron Man and the government like who and then the other sides like who?
Polices you and so it's it's a lot of the things a lot of people hold it. Yeah

(50:46):
Love that and they did in the comics and then the movies and I love that
They tip their hat to that too and the hesitancy of of Sam of new cap be like what you do adventures again
Who's gonna do that?
What if we say something that you don't agree with who's gonna what side we're gonna take if we get if we hang out to
Too much in the in the same bed
We cut if we spoon too long in the in the big big bed of big government

(51:11):
Who's who's gonna?
When we disagree when that pillow talk turns wrong, you know, what was gonna happen?
So I think that's a good good question and it needs to be there and I'm glad they brought it up
I just wish they were laying a little bit harder kind of
Don't do some of those and think about yeah, we got about this fighter jet scene as well in the ocean
Do you have any thoughts on the fighter jet scene? I was just caught up into in the fun of a dogfight in the air

(51:37):
like in terms of I
Of course, he's a fire pilot. He has wings. He was Falcon, but he's Captain America and Falcon
he has a new Falcon and you know, his buddy is in the danger and
Taken out and he starts questioning whether he what he's doing. I I was caught up in that scene
I didn't have any like deeper thoughts other than I thought it was done pretty well
and I love to see kind of the flight and what they could do is inevitable for them to have that kind of scene in the

(52:02):
Air because that's kind of what this new cap is. It's got more condon wings on and let's see what he can do with them
Yeah, I liked that they took kind of a creative approach so that it didn't feel just like a Iron Man 2.0
Whenever they showed like the face they didn't have the whole what do we call it the interface?
Overlaid over over the face. They more showed it as their face in there

(52:25):
But then they they focused more on like the third person kind of following them flying through the air
and kind of having this
More yeah, like like dogfight kind of feeling more like Maverick Top Gun sort of feel to it
like you were talking about but but I have heard a lot of criticism and and
feedback based on the scene alone that it felt very

(52:48):
not realistic in a way
And just kind of like like you get a lot of this MacGuffin so that certain things will play out through the scene like the fighter
jets the they they never fired missiles at Sam Wilson or
Joaquin Torres's
Character while they're flying through you think since they're such a small target

(53:08):
They would actually have more success with firing missiles, but they only fire the missiles at the the air
Aircraft carrier aircraft carriers and they only use the you know, the the machine guns on them
Which obviously doesn't work and then what else was it?
There's something else that people had kind of beef with on that. I honestly can't remember. Yeah

(53:33):
Yeah, and I guess if we get to that point, I'm like, alright, we're in the third act. We got the conflict Red Hulk's coming
And I kind of lose a little tiny plot plot holes or plot points
I wasn't paying too much attention to other than like oh, that's cool. They're they're firing each other
You know, there's there's high stakes here. Is there gonna be a national conflict?
It's gonna be World War three, you know

(53:53):
There it was cool seeing the celestial in the ocean and see what what could happen with that
Yeah in the comics in the comics Jason Aaron's run on the Avengers. There's a celestial
Body in the ocean and the Avengers take it over as their new headquarters like inside it
Which is a lot of fun
So it's kind of like when that was in the ocean and the eternal is like, oh cool

(54:13):
We're gonna that's eventually gonna be the Avengers headquarters, maybe and so when they brought it back up like that's cool
You know, I had problems with the Eternals too
I don't think it was as bad as people, you know make it out to be but but it was cool seeing that again
I mean like oh that could be the new headquarters for the Avengers at some point. Yeah, so there's there's a couple things
I think that Marvel went their own way with this. I think when the

(54:35):
Pan Prime Minister made comment about how America just likes to take whatever they want
They sort of implied at the the settler colonialism that happens throughout the world that this Western hegemony
That is placated through, you know US and like, you know
England and France and and all these kind of Western countries that that throughout history have have a rep card for you know

(54:59):
Taking things that they they want for you know, natural resources or anything like that
And I think it was kind of I think it was good that they they made some sort of little jab at that
Although I felt it was kind of like a tender foot around that subject
It was more just like we want to throw it in there
But we want to take it easy because we want fun being and we want people to watch it
We don't want to get too political

(55:19):
But I also like that they they threw in a comment about Isaiah Bradley talking about his treatment after the the Korean War
So he was essentially the the black Captain America the very first, you know Avenger pretty much
But he didn't really get that credibility that like Steve Rogers got but he was doing a lot of that during the Korean War
And I know that shows up in a lot of the comics and they have arcs on talking about that

(55:42):
but he made a comment about how after he came out of the war they put him in prison for 30 years and
I think that's kind of like a jab at how America treats their veterans and I thought it was good
They put something like that in there, too. Yeah. Yeah, I agree and
Yeah, that whole manifest destiny of mindset of colonization
I think yeah that needs to be brought up and as tied to the history of America in our flag

(56:07):
So you don't bring it up again your tone deaf
But but they'd lean harder into it or go deeper into it again source material for Isaiah Bradley. There's a graphic novel true
Red white and black and so so that's one that if you want to go back to source material and read
Isaiah Bradley's original comic run and

(56:28):
Kind of source material for that. I suggest that graphic novel and then the first time Captain America
And that Sam picked up the shield is Sentinel of Liberty in 1998 Mark Wade
run Mark Raid is is
pretty
Pretty phenomenal comic writer in Marvel and DC and so I highly recommend his stuff, too

(56:49):
So yeah
There's there's some source material to go back and kind of read where all this come from and it's hard to put all that
Into one movie so understand they have to think about direction
But it yeah again we keep saying this they they they tiptoe around all of them not lean hard into one
And so that that's where some of the you know
You're on the surface, but how do we go deeper into this? It's hard enough

(57:11):
Over into a brave new world. Yeah, it was just yeah. Yeah, that's right
Brave new surface. That's what brave new surface. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah
Retitle for Disney Plus. Yeah
So so the next little part here and I know you saw the notes and you may come into me like I can't believe you
Listed all these out. Yeah, did you AI those or did you look right every single one of them out?

(57:34):
Like I'm so I know no shame in there
But like I was like I did a little research so you can find out of my listeners to find out what I'm talking about
Here in a moment. Yeah, I did a little research and I found like a I don't know if it was a blog or someone that
Listed out literally every single superhero related movie or adjacent movie that they could come on TV show and cartoon

(57:55):
Right and TV show and cartoon. I think this particular post was it was it with TV shows as well
There's definitely some TV shows on there
Okay, so so with all media since the 1960s there were over
700 superhero media like you know movies or TV show that come out and

(58:15):
From what I could find as far as movies alone. There were only 28 black lead or black like, you know main
protagonist
actor led movies
So there I think there's more with TV series as well. I think you got
What is it? But that's just a black lead. I know there's more
Like invincible they have actually invincible. I think he's I think he's white

(58:38):
Yeah, he's like an ambiguous. I think he's like an Asian ambiguous
Character, but so given the disparity of black leads hero films and the backlash that Anthony Mackie had received prior to the
Release of the film. Do you think racism plays any role in any of this? Oh, sure. I mean, yeah the whole
again representation when the people who are writing and

(59:01):
creating this
since
Whenever whether it's comic books and then into media where it's comic strips to comic books to
pulp stories to then the emergence of radio and TV
And then the movies then then yeah
If if the people in charge and with the money and the privilege are upper-class white folk then yeah

(59:24):
That's what they're gonna tell their own stories and make them the hero of their own story
And so and that's why there's been a push over the last few decades to have better representation within those things
And then again, we have to bring up the EI is being undermined by our present
president and cabinet
The white backlash or the backlash against the EI but again that representation is important

(59:44):
What stories you're gonna tell and who's telling the stories who's telling the history from what perspective?
see that biblically you see that in American history and now and people being skeptical or
Who's telling the story is it's a good question to ask. So so absolutely. Yeah, I looked over this list
I was trying to like make checks beside the things that I've seen or watched or consumed and I was like, huh?

(01:00:04):
I think I've consumed maybe a fourth of these which is a lot if you think about like 700 over 700
Properties of cartoons movies and TV shows. It's like wow. I've seen a lot of these
Yeah granted a lot of lists where it will form films I saw a lot of like Russian Japanese media

(01:00:25):
Yeah, some from like other various countries too. So it wasn't all just like Western media
But it was all kind of build off that list. There's there's 35
MCU movies not talking about like before the interconnected MCU like
Fantastic Four Spider-Man X-Men those movies in the early 2000s

(01:00:46):
But but from the interconnected Iron Man leading in this continuity building upon one other than a shared universe
There's been 35 MCU movies and and so this is I guess 35 35th one
And so where do we go from here?
So, of course does it grow and tired or people tired of them when they tire the formula where people go spend money
And go see them where they looking for where they chasing

(01:01:07):
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug all those things
What do we what do we do next with these and in here is like a
It full-fledged geek I love these I'll go see them all but want something new or or wider and what's what's next?
Interesting, but yeah, yeah, there's a lot on here man
Email mark or reach out to him DM to see the full list and he'll share them with you

(01:01:30):
And then you can go through and take about an hour
And read through them and check by the ones that you've seen and the ones that you're interested in that
Maybe you'll look up and and watch at some point in the future. That's what I did
Yeah, I'll share the list of 28 films that I pulled out here
So I guess a follow-up question to this would be do you have a favorite like non-white?
Like kind of people of color led superhero either film or TV show

(01:01:54):
I got it black panther for sure
I mean that I think that was so monumental in terms of that movie that actor is sad that we lost him way too early
you know when I
So so yeah, my my favorite black panther and Chadwick Boseman as the actor
You know him passing away way too early one of my dear friends black friend geek scientist

(01:02:15):
You know, we bonded over these movies saw that movie together in the theater
And then when Chadwick passed away, you know, he he immediately, you know put out there on Twitter and in text
He was this is why black people can't have nice nice things
He was so bombed and I was like it just took the heart out of it because the legacy of this character
And what they were gonna build with this movie and the second black panther movie and building him into the Avengers team and being

(01:02:41):
You know the leader. I mean in comics. He's become a hero
You know the leader I mean in comics he's become the Steve Rogers Steve Rogers like I'm gonna do my other thing
You know black panther you're the leader take it you take the mantle
You're the head of the team you have the tech you have the smarts
You have the heart to to be the leader of the Avengers and that that could have been that so so they were again

(01:03:01):
Marvel's derailed with their plans because of the death of Chadwick and I think yeah, so by far that
Black panther his emergence in comics and then in the movie and then what they could what they could have done with that again
Just recast or maybe I don't know his legacy how you do that
How do you have to handle that with with center care? But yeah, that's that's my favorite one. Love it. Absolutely

(01:03:24):
Love it. I like that choice. I think my choice would be black dynamite
Hi there. This is future editor mark
I wanted to interject this at a disclaimer about this film since recording this episode
I've had a chance to rewatch a little bit of the movie black dynamite and
It's been a little bit different in my memory since the last time I saw it, which was about 15 years ago

(01:03:47):
There are some scenes with some highly highly sexual content some nudity. Of course, there's violence language
there are some some rhetoric use that is
very not politically correct and
some language that is
Offensive or at least it made me feel uncomfortable. So just wanted to throw this disclaimer out

(01:04:09):
Overall, I love the humor of it. I still would recommend this movie just because I love the kung fu
I love the quirkiness and the the campiness of the black exploitation films
It was created as a spoof of black exploitation films. So if you enjoy that kind of stuff, I'd say go watch it
It's a very fun movie, but per this disclaimer

(01:04:32):
definitely take note and
Understand that there is content in there that you might not like
So back to the show. I've seen that movie like three times. I just absolutely adore that film is is
quirky it is
Hilarious it it brings in like this
It kind of pokes at the the black black point eight black exploitation films

(01:04:56):
Yeah, and it's just like everything about it is just fantastic
So if if you or any of my listeners have never heard of black dynamite right now go out there and watch it
It's certainly a standalone film what what what year and then like who's the who are the stars of this? Oh
boy black time I

(01:05:18):
What year did it come out?
2009
So it's it's only been what is that 16 years ago that it came out
But it's so the the main actor is Michael Jai White
Okay, and
Pretty well known people that showed up as well. I know bokeem would bind

(01:05:40):
He was in there if you know that that actor at all
Byron minns
Our Senio Hall showed up
So you get a lot of these like people these faces that that you recognize from other films
Of course like if you if you you know not too much into black media
I probably won't recognize a lot of names that that are on the list of the

(01:06:03):
of actors that show up in it, but was it oba
Baba Tunde I know I've seen him in a bunch of stuff
So it's it's just a fun film like seriously just go watch it. It's it's a good friend
It's it's a good Friday night film. It's it's um, yeah, and I are rated for a reason but

(01:06:24):
But you know, I'm a I'm a child of the late 70s and 80s and so when I was reading comics and watching cartoons on
Sorry morning, whatever and watching Super Friends. There's one black dude black lightning, you know in the comics Marvel
They had one black Avenger and that was like panther, you know, it's what wasn't a lot or Sam Wilson
Um, they had a few here and there they were sprinkled in I think even on the X-Men

(01:06:46):
It was an international team, but um, there were you had storm. Uh, one of my favorite characters of all time
As as the the hero weather control she's awesome became the leader of the x-men
So her as a black woman a superhero leader of the x-men was was foundational for me when she took over the reins from
Cyclops and scott summers

(01:07:07):
What was big but there's not a lot like you said in terms of that
So I think representation is is important and when people get mad of race swapping or gender swapping certain
Characters are creating new characters is to kind of find a way to represent and tell their stories and give it a shot
It doesn't have to like all things that people create or all stories that people are writing
But but give it a give it a shot go into it

(01:07:29):
See what kind of story they're trying to say going with with humble listening ears to the story
They're trying to share and learn from it and not get so defensive. So
Definitely. So I want to jump into this next little part just because I know we're we're getting closer to the end of time here
Yeah
So given the politics presented in the film that they had presented had you notice any parallels to our real-world presidential?

(01:07:52):
Administration or other ways brave new world mirror society. Oh
Man yeah, that's a loaded question. Yeah, they're definitely they're definitely parallels
I mean this was written before you know November of last year and and put out there and edited but but it's hard not to
Look at it and see it. I mean again the mind control and manipulation

(01:08:15):
The algorithms the AI the tech and you know, those kinds of things has has me nervous. I'm not scared of AI
I'm not scared of tech again
I feel like they're tools that we can use for the benefit just like reading glasses or Tylenol, you know
At one point people like oh no, you're playing God because you have reading glasses. You're augmenting your vision of

(01:08:38):
Wanting to see better, you know, I'm like, you know, it's just tech that we use but again humans have their propensity to take
Tools and turn them into weapons. So yeah, I have a hammer to help build my house
But I can also smash somebody over the head with it. Yeah, we create atomic energy
For for for energy for human beings and yet we we drop it on somebody to blow up an entire

(01:08:58):
City. So yeah tech and AI don't don't scare me
But I am scared of who's wielding it and what people are gonna do with it and whether we're being good stewards of those
Technologies and tools and so I think there's room for that conversation
So yes
That that's the main thing that has me nervous about this administration is is what I don't trust them to how they're using these

(01:09:21):
progression of tools and the accelerated nature of AI and algorithms and internet or or
Or whatever's out there, you know
So so that that's kind of where I am and yeah
How hard is people don't want to draw attention to themselves that are gonna get in trouble with this particular administration or taken out or I mean
I'm not gonna you know beat around the bush. I think I think comes to my boss

(01:09:42):
He's a he's a Batman villain my boss whose has Lex Luthor and next to him
He thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and it's hard not to look at it that way
And when someone thinks they're the smartest person in the room
I don't I don't particularly enjoy being around those people or trust those people
so I think that's that's what they're doing and
It's hard not to look at this movie and like yeah, who's wielding the power who's?

(01:10:05):
wielding the privilege who's wielding the tech and weaponry
It's always been a part of superhero comics superhero movies
What makes a hero what makes a villain is pretty clear to see and and yeah with what's going on our world right now
You're the chair in the villain or because you're on their side and you're gonna get
You get to walk up a couple
steps higher and

(01:10:27):
Power privileged in and profit and money maybe you feel like you get a little richer, but that's that's kind of where I'm right now
Friends who are listening this they they know where I stand on these things and you know again like I can have
conversations and nuanced conversations about how much I feel like
NASA money NASA's getting or not getting or how much we're paying teachers or not

(01:10:49):
I can have nuanced conversations and sit at the table and talk about those economic issues
But man when you have a whole administration that's calling a group of people who I consider
important or friends or part of my community, you know parasites or or scum or or
treacherous things then
And yeah, I'm gonna second-guess their character and who they are what they represent. So that's why I'm sorry for my little soapbox there

(01:11:13):
But yeah, yeah, it's hard not to watch it
Maybe that's the head since even this movie did great for open weekend
But it's not didn't have a great second weekend and whether it's just gonna be put on Disney Plus and forgotten to move on
I don't I don't know. We'll see what happens. Yeah, it was one of those films that was kind of a I mean
I felt like it was kind of a transition film kind of setting things up for future development

(01:11:33):
And it was almost kind of like Marvel Studios like okay. Well, we'll throw we'll throw a community of bone
Here's your black lead actor, you know bring you trying to bring all these stories together and trying to set it up for
Thunderbolts and everything like that
But I felt like there was a lot of ambiguity
to
To the politics, especially with like Thaddeus Ross
they bring over and they make this whole thing togetherness with a period and they it's

(01:11:58):
Almost like they weren't trying to say like there he was one particular party over another
they didn't even show like a
Vice president elect with him at all, which I think I think they left it
Ambiguously wide open so they could do whatever they want with in the future real fast. Are you are you familiar with I fanboy?
Pick of the week. I
know

(01:12:20):
Is a podcast they drop every Sunday and talk about their weekly comics and polls and what they what they like
I feel like I like I like listening to what was in their poll box
What comics they read what they like to pick it they pick the pick of the week and but they also had these media
Explodes and talk about the comic movies or other things and and that was the kind of their their take to they didn't have very
Great things to say about Brave New World, but one of their questions like where was the vice president?

(01:12:42):
Why weren't people alerted? That was one of their things is like, all right, the president hulks out who's next in charge?
Like what's what's going on here? Maybe they there was one and they just kind of cut them out then the rewrites
But I thought that was interesting interesting point
Yeah, and and to go along with what I was saying with Philly was transitioning here's a bone sort of thing
I thought the the I probably should have brought it up earlier with what we did

(01:13:06):
Like about the film, but I thought the the writing was just not very good. I felt like it was very forced very
cheesy
Cliche and the yeah, I thought like acting was was good on like what walking toruses and
Anthony Mackie Mackie's character of like Sam Harrison for it was great seeing him. I thought he did a great job with that
He he acted the crap out of that

(01:13:27):
But even with like the act good acting like I thought their dialogue was just atrocious at points
And I think a lot of that was the writing I think when people watch this
I think a lot of people might have that same thought like oh their acting was bad
No, it was the writing was bad. There was bad dialogue to begin with. Yeah, so that's my whole two cents
Yeah, so I'll read off a couple quotes. I thought were noteworthy throughout the movie

(01:13:50):
So, of course the togetherness and Thaddeus Ross is the most important election of our time
Of course, this movie was made, you know
Well before the election and everything like that as we're trying to keep it ambiguous
Let's see. Isaiah Bradley says as long as Captain America answers to the president Captain America represents what the president represents kind of talking about that

(01:14:10):
Like, you know, do you do fall in line with the president or do you do what you think is right? And then Sam Wilson even said
Sorry, it was Ross told Stearns that he would pardon him and his crimes once he became president
Kind of reflects like what happened with like January 6th people rioters and and being pardoned
If we can't see the good in each other, we've already lost the fight. Sam Wilson said that to Joaquin Torres

(01:14:35):
Yeah, so I thought those were kind of noteworthy
Some quotes throughout the movie
Yeah, yeah, and um in Cincinnati Ecology
We have one of our yearly themes is seeing the good and the other finding the good
And so we're we're picking things that we don't like and then trying to find the good in the good
And then trying to find the good in them because so much of a fandom can be toxic to you tear things down

(01:14:59):
They click baity stuff of like, uh
MCU is dead. Disney gone. Wake again click here and watch my 15 minute rant about these things and why it's all wrong
Um, and we're not saying you can't critique or not like something but but the exercise
They were trying to do is pick some things we don't necessarily like then perhaps find the good in it
Look at the good other things so that really stoked Joshua out. He was like, yeah
Yeah, look, they picked our theme. We were ahead of them

(01:15:22):
We're you know finding the good the other is is a big part of what sam was talking about and I agree with um,
Whether it's pulled off or clunky dialogue or not
Joshua geeked out on that because of yeah. Yeah finding the good and the other is
is important as much as I
disdain
the
present
presidential posture towards others I

(01:15:43):
And dehumanizing others. I have to remind myself often not to dehumanize them as well
To see them as beloved child of god to see them as someone creating the image of god to
To pray for them to all those things
Is is not easy, but it's it's you know, because you want to get defensive you want to fight but
Roll up your sleeves and go at it

(01:16:03):
But um, but yeah
I think we need to be right if we're going to see the good in the other or or if we don't like
Dehumanizing people then maybe we shouldn't do it to others as well. Even though it's like dehumanizing. Yeah, I like that
So i'm going to wrap the this follow-up question that I had into the next one
So I think it works pretty well
But I during your conversation on systematic ecology about this you you guys talked about the cheap grace versus costly

(01:16:27):
Costly grace and that is ross's voluntary confinement at the end of the the film
Sorry, spoiler alert if if any of you haven't seen the film you clicked on this haven't seen the film. Yeah
It's not way
So as a social commentary on political and even religious leaders in the real world and to wrap that all in so
Are there any positive takeaways from captain america?
A brave new world that we can apply in our to our role in today's world along

(01:16:51):
We can talk about that cheap grace and costly grace thing too as well
Yeah, yeah the the the cheap grace costly grace again
I a little bit of pride there with with leuphanism in terms of taking that you're where where denomination
Uh founded on unconditional grace and luther martin luther lifting that up out of scripture
Uh that we're saved by grace not through our merits of our own and then eventually get around to bonhoeffer which again

(01:17:16):
you know a very political uh
Person a lutheran philosopher theologian who had to deal with nazis, you know
Talked about cheap grace and costly grace and what that means
So that's that's literally his phrase that he was using to talk about those things
And so yeah, I I thought I thought that at the end you talk about restorative justice versus, you know

(01:17:36):
punitive, you know, just punishment and all those things I think
That humility and and understanding what what restorative justice means it looks like I think is important the the
the costly grace what it what it means to
for true relationships
humility
authentic connection with others goes deeper than just like

(01:17:58):
cheap grace
Good point good point
So there were a couple other quotes that that also stood out that I felt were pretty good in this section right here
So again spoiler alert bucky barnes shows up for just a little cameo and he tells
Sam wilson that steve gave steve gave them something to believe in you give them something to aspire to

(01:18:22):
I felt like that was just such a like um
It's kind of like that whole idea going back to the controversy of you know
This captain america represent america or just represent the the principles
that
Patriotism, you know encompasses and that would be you know being strong fearless confident true honest kind

(01:18:43):
And good like the american dream like you know what that all encompasses. So
Yeah, and that you know welcoming we're going to go into like the the immigrant the stranger
those who are fleeing political dangers and
and fleeing for their lives, can we take them in in this kind of uh, the statue of liberty and come come
Uh and and be with us and and we welcome and sit a long table. I mean, yeah, we're on grub and grace right now how

(01:19:09):
Let's let's uh, let's let's build longer tables rather than taller walls and have a seat and and eat together and be together
And I think I think that
uh again, there's rough history when it comes to american history and colonialism and
And how we treat people of different colors skin and all that but but I
Again part of that envision is is a big wide table

(01:19:32):
Um, and you're welcome here. You're fleeing for your life scared for your life. Come and make a seat. Let's
We'll we'll take refuge take refuge here in this space
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and also like the the whole idea that president ross talks about we can do this together
I think he tells sam wilson that or um, but that whole idea of like as a as a leader like, you know

(01:19:52):
We can bring each other together
but then it also makes me think of like past leaders like uh, like brock obama and
And uh biden how they they kind of had this, you know
The democratic party has a lot of this kind of rhetoric where like we can do this together
We can we know if we come together and we're we're all one unity and we can we can make a great society and it

(01:20:13):
That's one of the the criticism and lashback that people have on the democratic party
Is that they're all talk, but they don't really necessarily follow it up with action
and
You look at it with like especially with like what's happening in palestine and the the funding that
That is given to israel to to do what they're doing knowing what they're doing
They still give millions of dollars to them, you know every year and you know, brock obama did that with a smile

(01:20:36):
You know biden he just laughs at the report as after as they ask him questions
As they you know, he continues to approve all this going on as well as you know policy like uh domestic policy
There's a lot of things that they would say like, you know, i'm doing this and and just you know
Nothing really ever comes of it
So it's one of those things that like a lot of people have come at me like, you know, you're just very

(01:20:57):
You're very hard on president trump and you're saying all these things but it's like no i'm i'm being very critiqued full of all the presidents
I think being in power you you have this responsibility as a leader to
Uphold what's best for the people. I mean you were elected by the people and so you should be doing the will of the people of what they want
And if you're not doing that you need to be held accountable and be criticized with absolute prudence. So I think it's um

(01:21:23):
It's one of those things like I i'd love hearing that but I want to see I want to see the return on investment there
So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that
Yeah, I mean harris harris was running. I think she tried to do a more positive
Campaign. We're together. Let's move future. Let's not go backward. Let's pull together and move forward together
And we welcome a lot more people and it's a wide table and that didn't resonate with folks what resonated was like

(01:21:48):
transphobic tv ads and
People you're scaring people that there's immigrants eating their pets
I mean, they're I guess my cynicism towards that is like what what went out in the end of the day this the scare tactics
The fear tactics was it really the cost of eggs that made people vote?
towards trump or was it like just the
the fear of a of a black woman being a president it's hard for me not to be cynical towards those things and

(01:22:13):
What are we really masking in and and yeah again the uneasy of like who do I trust?
Moving forward with with the accelerating nature of of tech and power and global politics
Again, like who do I trust and and there's people who wanted a strong man or thought that he was going to save save through different means
You know power and profit maybe um over people. I think I think that's that's what's disheartening

(01:22:37):
to me with all this and again start coming back around to to this movie, um, it's hard it's hard
Not to look at this me without the that in front of you. Um, and and wanting to lean harder and people gonna sit find
What they want to see in it? Uh where they stand on whatever issue but um
Yeah, I love the superhero uh, and I think it's a great thing

(01:22:59):
Yeah, I love the superhero, uh action scenes
Uh, I want to see a larger
Marvel universe. I want to see some characters
I haven't seen before yet that haven't made their way into the mcu yet hop hop on board and
And create new avengers and move forward. So but we'll get there. Uh, there's there's a lot of fun stuff out there
There's a lot of good content. It's a good time to be a geek

(01:23:19):
Uh, even though this wasn't like a plus in my book
Um, you know, it was still fun and and it's there's it's still a good time to be a geek
There's a lot of good stuff out there a lot of fun stuff there is and like I was saying like it's a fun superhero movie
I I would suggest people to watch it just because you know
If you like your superhero movies, there's a lot of that geek-tome with it and and a lot of fun
Ness with the story still a very fun engaging story and and I really enjoyed it. So, um, I would recommend to go watch it

(01:23:48):
And read the source material read the source material go out there find some catamaran. Yep, go find the comics. They're fun
Yeah, so i'm gonna go ahead and bring this up to a to a close
So do you have any projects that you would like to plug for yourself?
Um, yeah, just just you can follow us this my geekology
that's kind of where I geek out the most with we have like 14 hosts that talk anything from marvel movies to

(01:24:10):
anime to you know video games all across, uh, I don't geek out on all those things, but we have a
uh a big wide pantheon of hosts that that can geek out on all kinds of stuff and then
every now and then on across the bifrost my friend ryan to talk about thor comics and other comics and
Um couple other things
And and yeah
I might have some my own writing and and things out there at some point if you're in the triangle area near chapel hill and

(01:24:37):
You want to grab a beer or coffee to geek out on things or talk theology nerd stuff?
Then then let me know would love to connect with you right on and I actually I should just listen to your um homily
with um, yeah
Yeah, i'm one of your sermons. I think it was the jesus made it weird episode. Oh, okay
Yeah, and I really appreciated some of it because you were talking about food and I was like I was like

(01:24:59):
Oh, this is perfect. I need to bring this up because you were talking about like the the fermentation process of of bread
um, and even just like with like, you know alcohols like beer and everything like that and yep, and just
the the process of
Of jesus's like way of of teaching and instructing and bringing up like new

(01:25:20):
Concepts and everything like that to the people you were talking about how he would always break food food with people like in the sermon of
The mount we would break the food and then he would he would preach and talk to people and and then he went across
The sea and there was more people that wanted to so he you know
Preached some more on the other side of the the water there and and that's when he brought up the whole idea of you know
I'm I'm the
Um the son of god pretty much and yeah, i'm the bread of life

(01:25:44):
Yeah, and the fact that all four gospels, you know, there's there the synoptics are a lot of similarities john does his own thing
But in all four gospels the story that they they all
Decide to include no matter what is the fee in the 5 000. That was pretty big
For for the jesus story that they they believe yeah forgot about the homily
Yeah, yeah, since my kikalaji is part of the anasal on a podcast network that joshua puts together and every now and then he'll he'll pull

(01:26:09):
My sermons from our church youtube page and put them into my own podcast called the homily sometimes forget
It's been a while since the new one's been out there
So but but yeah the homily and then I was on my friend's podcast ryan does did skipping church with brian
And when I was taking care of my mom on a sunday
Uh skipping skipping church i'll get skipped like four days for four sundays a year for the vacation

(01:26:31):
But but I was skipping that day and I was able to talk about my love of surfing and some of my surfing experiences
And that was a lot of fun. So check out that episode if you want to get a picture of me
Geeking out on things other than star wars and and comics
My other first love of geekdom is uh is surfing and following the surfing tour and pro surfers and bita beach bomb. So
Yeah, that's a good episode too. Yeah, i'll just check that out and where can people find you also

(01:26:55):
Yeah, will rose on instagram facebook, uh my church website here in chapel hill
All right, and as as you guys always finish up with any geekology episode in light of systematic geology
What are you currently geeking out on?
Wow, man, there's so much good tv right now like I
I just geeked out super hard on starting out live the 50th anniversary episode. I'm a big siren at live geek and um,

(01:27:18):
uh that really kind of foundation and curated my sense of humor for better or worse and uh
Uh, love their 50th anniversary episode and then um loving the ending of cobra kai loving severance loving white lotus
There's just a lot of good stuff on tv right now right on so I I'm going to share a couple things
I would geek it on so the season three of invincible, um on amazon prime

(01:27:42):
Also right here called made in korea
It's cool. It's kind of a fun little story about ai and robots getting sentience. Um, okay
Yeah, it's just a one one. Um one piece there and then I didn't know that kiana reeves came out with his own comic book
But berserker so I picked up volume one on that. It's it's uh, very violent. Uh, so if you're not there violence

(01:28:05):
very
And then of course, I love all these little sarah scribbles the cryptic club
Yeah, so I love all that
That's kind of I'll also say that I liked frilly neighborhood spider-man the cart new spider-man cartoon on disney plus about 10 episodes
Uh that centers in kind of on the mcu version of spidey. Uh, not necessarily tom holland voice

(01:28:27):
Voice acting with this but sounds very similar and similar vibe. I had a lot of fun with that
They take a couple twists and turns and you know in spider-man canon
But most of all it characterizes him really well and I loved it
I love a good spider-man story and and yeah, check that out, too. I love spider-man. I'll have to check that out
Yeah, you'll love it. So so i'll send you off with this quote from sam wilson happened early in the movie

(01:28:49):
Um, he's going to rescue a a canister but he ends up rescuing people instead
Um, but he he sends off this quote. Let's get this over with I got to do so
That's it for today's episode of grabbing grace. Thank you so much for coming today. I hope you enjoyed our discussion with willem bros about the film captain america brave new world
We will we will I want to give a big thank you to will for joining us on this episode

(01:29:14):
If you enjoy the content that we produce
Be sure to leave us a five star rating and review on apple podcast
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Until next time stay curious keep an open mind and celebrate the traditions that bring us all together

(01:29:55):
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